PROVlNCE O.F NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 106 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY. JUNE 10.1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1198 JM- 1 The House met at 10:30 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SMALLWOOD(W.R.): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition from the voters of Pilley's Island. Now, Sir, the Prayer of this Petition is for the construction of a road around part of the settlement of Pilley's Island. There is a large part of the settlement of Pilley's Island not actually connected with the main highroad going down over the Island and as a result, of course, the people cannot drive to their homes or have articles delivered by truck.

This is on the West side of Pilley's Island and the petition, Mr. Speaker, looks like it has been signed by about all the people living over on that side of Pilley's Island. I solemnly support the Prayer of the Petition and ask that it be received by this House and referred to the Department to which it relates. On .,otion, Petition receivel. MR. BURGESS: Mr. Speaker, forgive me as I thought somebody else was, the bon. gentleman did not sit down. I would like to present a petition. This petition, Mr. Speaker, is on behalf of the residents of Labrador South mainly Black Tickle and from West St.

Modeste and L'Anse-au-Loup. The Prayer of the Petition, Mr. Speaker, they explain it themselves. The residents of Black Tickle, Labrador as well as the operators of longliners and other fishing vessels in the district of Labrador South would like to make a request for the establishment of a bait depot, wharf and community stage at Black Tickle. The reason that they request the establishment of this bait depot, wharf and community stage at Black Tickle, Mr.

Speaker, is the desire to have it centrally located so as to serve the surrounding area and the fishing fleet which comes from other parts of Newfoundland and Labrador. There are quite a number of fishing vessels that operate out of Black Tickle and there are approximately 500 fishermen including 200 planters in the surrounding area and this is why they desire to have the establishment of these facilities at Black Tickle. I certainly support the Prayer of th~ Petition, Mr. Speaker, and I 67JO

June . lOth, 1970 Tape 1198 JM- 2 MR. BURGESS: would move that it be accepted and referred to the Department to which it relates. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, we certainly would like to endorse and support this petition from Labrador South presented by the member for Labrador West. The establishment of a bait depot would certainly be beneficial to the fisher­ men and the fishery in that area.

Labrador South is a district where the main occupation is still the fishery and anything that the Government can do to assist them in pursuing the fishery and giving them more facilities to improve their fishing ability is certainly to be commended and supported and whether it is this Government alone or this Government and the Government of Canada the Prayer of the Petition should certainly be supported. On motion, Petition received. NOTICE OF MOTION: MR. SMALLWOOD(J.R.): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a Bill,"An Act Further To Amend The Newfoundland And Labrador Power Commission Act, 1965." MR. JONES: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to move this House into a Committee of the Whole to consider a certain resolution in relation to the advancing or guarantying of certain loans. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I gave an answer a day or two ago to question (536) on the Order Paper of May 28th in the name of the hon. the member for St. John's East Extern.

The answer that I gave was correct but it was only the partial answer. So that the H9use may understand I should repeat the question as asked by the bon. member. ·~at was the amount of the total purchases by Newfoundland ~nd Labrador Power Commission from Newfoundland Hardwoods Ltd. in the years 1968-69 .and 1969-70, and indicate the types of supplies purchased?" The answer I gave as given to me to give was 1968-69 wooden creosoted poles $64,371., 1969-70 wooden creosoted poles $9,916. That was quite correct but it gave the figures only for those things directly purchased by the Power Commission.

It subsequently developed that in addition to the direct purchases made by the Commission itself consultants of the 67D1

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1198 JM - 3 MR. SMALLWOOO: Commission had also purchaaed for the Commi .. ion ,in 1968-(,9, $168,076. worth of products and in 1969-70, $409,825. and the purchases were of wooden creosoted poles, cross arms, anchor logs, spacer blocks aad aiacel1aneous timber requirments so that the full answer would put these two figures together, the figures I gave as the . direct purchases of the Power Commission and the figures I now give as the indirect purchases but nevertheless in behalf of the Power Commission.

So altogether it came to about $600,000. worth of products from Newfoundland Hardwoods for transmission lines and the like in the Province. ORDERS OF TRE DAY: MR. CROSBIE: On Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Highways but since he is not here I will direct it to the Premier. Is the stat~ent made on the South Coast by Mr. Eric Facey, Assistant to the Minister of Transport, Mr.

Don Jamieson, to the effect that ::work will start this year on the road from Burgeo to the existing road system in the Province, that the work would'be undertaken by the Provincial Government, this would be a low cost road and that arrangements would be made later for a Federal contribution, is that statement correct that was reported on the South Coast by radio on May 21st? Is this road included in the Provincial road program this year? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, before we get off this I wonder would the Premier give us some information concerning the damage to the Power Commission lines last winter. You will recall that I had a question on the Order Paper at the time and an answer was given then prior to anyone having the opportunity to establish just what the exten£ of the damage was and I believe the Premier indicated at the time that he would give us the information later, is he in a position now to say what the total damage was, the total cost of the damage caused and if all that work has been completed? MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Speaker, is this the kind of question on Orders of the Day? MR. SPEAKER: This question is quite conveniently placed on the Order Paper. 67:)2

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1198 JM- 4 MR. COLLINS: What is the difference, Hr. Speaker, - MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, in connection with the proposed road from Burgeo to join up with the existing road system, is this road proposed to join onto the Bay D'Espoir highway or to join on tip in the other direction up towards Robinsons and what contribution will be made to it by the Government of Canada to the cost of it? MR. SMALLWOOD: The actual route is in neither of these two directions or over neither of these two courses but something in between.

The amount of the contribution from the Government of Canada has not as yet been determined but we have no doubt that it will be generous. MR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, would the Premier indicate to the House if there is any truth to the rumor that several of the employees at Come By Chance,employed with the Shaheen interests, have decided to quit their work because they have not been paid for several months and what does this mean for the future of the project'l On motion of the hon. the Premier,a Bill, "An Act To Authorize The Lieutenant-Governor In Council To Enter Into An Agreement With British New­ foundland Corporation Limited and N.M.

Rothschild & Sons, Supplemental To The Agreement Dated The Twenty-First Day Of May, 1953, As Heretofore Amended," read a first time, order read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the hon. the Premier, a B~ll, "An Act Further To Amend The Government-British Newfoundland Exploration Limited(Authorization Of Agreement) Act, 1957, And The Agreement Made In Pursuance Of That Act," read a first time, order read a second time on tomorrow.

On motion of the bon. the Premier, a Bill, "An Act To Make Consistent The Provisions In Various Acts Respecting The Insertions Of Public Notices In Newspapers," read a first time, order read a second time on tomorrow. On motion of the bon. the Minister of Fisheries, a Bill, "An Act To Repeal The Salt Codfish Marketing (Control) Act, 1964," read a first time, order read a •econd time on tomorrow. On 1110tion of the bon. the Minbter of Pbherie•, a Bill, ''An Act To Repeal The Salt Codfish Marketing Board Act, 1964," read a first time, 67D3

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1198 JM- 5 ord~r reAd R Aer.nnrl tim~ on tomorrow, ('\n mnt '''"or th• hon. th• l'rfl"t.IP.nt of' the''''"'"'''· a lUll, "A11 Act l"urthC"r To ""'""'t Tht~ Av•lun 1'ol .. rhi\11P c:''"'l''"'v "''. 11.1<\ 1," tPAol A fltRI time, order read a second time on tomorrow. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY: DEPARTMENT OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING: MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, when we adjourned last night I was speaking in connection with the Minister's announcement about the housing and I would just like to make a brief comment on the Minister's announcement.

As I said last night this housing program for this year appears to be a very sensible one and one that can be carried out for $10,600,000. because between seventy­ five per-cent and ninety per-cent of the monies • to be spent under this program would come from the Government of Canada or from CMHC. I would ask the Minister, just to remind him, to explain when he replies how the sum of $954,000. which is in the estimates under capital account for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, how that will be sufficient to meet our obligations under the program?

One would have thought it would have been a bit more. I notice that 1969, for example, the Auditor-General showed an amount of $2,463,000. which was voted on capital account for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing C~rporation and the amount in the estimates this year is much less than half that, about one~third of it, so he might explain how this is sufficient to· carry on the $10.5 miilion program? Point one: land, acquisition and planning is, of course, a sensible policy. The new town areas of Corner Brook and St. John's have been announced time after time over the past several years.

Yet it is amazing to me that you hear a news broadcast this morning announcing again that there is going to be land acquired near Mt. Pearl, near Corner Brook on which new towns are going to be established as though this was the first time it was ever stated. It has been stated at least five times in the last three to four years. Never­ theless this is a very sensible thing to acquire the land and control the building right from the start. So

section one of the program has my whole-

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1198 JM- 6 MR. CROSBIE: hearted support and approval. Land servicing,

section two, provides aervic~buidling lots in several areas of the Province, 950 new housing units which is excellent. This is the job of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. I am glad to be able to say that I was a Minister when that Corporation was established and introduced the Act in this House, worked on the Act and I think the Minister has an excellent housing arm in the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. I think we all have a very high opinion of the manager of that Corporation, Mr.

Vivian, who is in the House today and I feel sure they are doing and will continue to do an excellent job. Subsidized rental housing, the Government is going to put $4. million more, that is the two Governments will be spending $4. million more on subsidized housing. It would be interesting to have the Minister tell us where this housing is going to be constructed this year if he has that information, where is he hoping to build this subsidized rental housing? In answer to a question earlier in this session, Mr.

Chairman, it did appear that the subsidized rental housing in Marystown had not lived up to expectations. There was a very, very low rate of occupancy of the subsidized rental units at Marystown and of the economic rental units at Marystovn which showed - Of course, you cannot blame this on the Housing Authority or on our Housing Branch because they were given the projections of what was needed by primarily the Department of Fisheries and fisheries people in the area and the Economic Development people. I think it would be interesting for the Minister to bring us up t~ate.

What is the rate of occupancy at Marystown now in the subsidized rental and economic rental units? .That is important information and ~o be careful in the future not to be too over optimistic. The people who are after the Housing Branch of the Government to construct housing are nearly always too optimistic in their predictions. I remember in 1966 the tremendous pressure from the Marystown Fish Plant people and the ship yard ·people for all kinds of units and from all Fish Plant owners around the country, a tremendous clamour for the Government to build housing in all these areas and G7S5

June lOth, 1970 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 1198 JM - 7 the next year they were in a •~ump and the wholo •ituation waa eomploto!y reversed. In connection with the subsidized rental I woul~ like the Minister to tell us, are people moving under the resettlement program say from remote fishing locations, from the islands .of Placentia Bay and so on, are they moving into subsidized rental? Because these are people who always owned their own homes, that never paid rent or mortgage payments or anything like that. Are our outport people accepting subsidized rental or are they moving into these units?

Is this going to be successful in connection with the resettlement program and if the Minister could tell us where it is planned to build some of these units this year?

Section four of the program, shell housing, it is stated that there are going to be fifty such units constructed in Newfoundland this year. In reply to a question asked earlier during the session the ~inister stated that no shell housing had been constructed in Newfoundland to~ate. That was his answer. The number of the question was (421), have any shell-type houses been constructed in Newfoundland and so on or have they been constructed and taken over by purchasers and completed? The answer to that was no. If any houses have been constructed and completed where are they located. The answer was none.

That was the answer to question (421) and the details are going to be given in the Budget Speech. So would the Minister confirm this; I understand from the answer to the question that todate no shell houses have been constructed in Newfoundland by the Housing Corporation or any agency of the Government, taken over by purchasers and completed. Would the Minister confirm if that is the position and I think we should have some details as to how the . ahel~ housing program is going to be financed? Will 67~6

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Page 1 -- apb MR.CROSBIE: C.H.M.C., provide mortsage financing for these shell houses, and if so on what basis? Will part of the mortgage be paid once the shell is up, and the remainder when the purchaser finishes the house? How is t~s going to be carried out? We are all in favour of this being attempted, but has c·.H.M.C. definitely agreed to it, and what are the mechanics of carrying it out? To say that we are doing it is not enough, I think we need to know just how it is going to be carried out, and whether there is a definite agreement with C.H.M.C.

There is a one and one-half million dollar program as stated on page three. Now, section (5), other activities- this is something that definitely has to be clarified because it has been made to appear as though this Government is starting something revolutionary. Section (5). In addition to the house that have been purchased by the Department of Public Welfare, the Government in 1969 authorized the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to assume the purchase of housing for the needy. Now Mr. Chairman, I am sure from this statement that this is not a new program . up to 1969.

The answers to the questions that were given in this Bouse, the Department of Welfare had purchased hundreds of houses throughout this Province, paying from $300. to 'five or six thousand dollars for people who were receiving welfare assistance, and in over half the cases they transferred the title to the welfare recipient, and in some cases the Government kept the title. In 1969, this-was transferred to the Newfoundland and Labrador Houaipg Corporation, and this statement here says that since that time fourteen units have been purchased by the Corporation.

That was a question that was answered here to that effect during this session. One of them by the way, one of these purchases was a house that cost $10,000., and thirty- three are n~ being negotiated, $200,000. to be spent this year. Nov, this has been blown up Mr. Chairman, as though this was a revolutionary new program for the Government of Newfoundland, where it is nothing of the sort. This is a program that was ear~ied on by the Department of Welfare for years, it has now been assumed by the Newfoundland and Labrador·Housing Corporation, and these units are presumably going to be G7D7

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Page 2 -- apb used to house recipients of welfare. They are not going to be used to be sold or rented, unless the policy is completely changed. AN HON. MEMBER: Unless the ground rule~ are changed. MR. CROSBIE: Ri~ht, unless these ground rules are changed to other people, and if the ground rules are changed, what is going to be the definition of needy? These people the houses are going to be rented to, how are they going to be chosen? This whole thing has a lot of complications and complexities.

Now, with respect to houses rented to welfare recipients, the Canada Assistance Plan will pay the Government of Newfoundland half the rent, and the Department of Welfare will have to pay the rest. This is not a revolutionary new program, there is only $200,000. involved. It is the old welfare program revised, and it will be interesting to know how - what the truth of this matter is. The next part of the minister's statement I am certainly 100 percent in favour of. The Government is going to spend $660,000. to renovate 140 units on Cashin Avenue in St. John's West, and 152 units in the Empire Avenue area, St.

John's West. These are subsidized rental projects that were constructed a number of years ago and are now in considerable disrepair. This is a very worthwhile program, and I am delighted to see that this money is going to be spent to renovate and rehabilitate these units, because, it certainly is very, very badly needed. The next

section of the statement says that there is going to be housing for Government employees located outside the capital city, medical officers and welfare officers, total cost, $440,000. Now last year, $880,000. was paid to Atlantic Design Home Limited at Stephenville, to purchase, I do not know if it was fifty or sixty homes from Atlantic Design - some to be used as public housing, some to be used for medical officers and welfare officers. The cost of those units was over $20,000.

Is this $440,000. to be used to buy more homes from Atlantic Design, or will the Government call tenders, or call for proposals for this kind of home? Will other people who are involved in this business, or outfits like the one out in the Western Provinces, ACBTO Calagary, the minister knows their name, his commissioner knows their name, G7J8

June 10, 1970, l'apo 1199, l'aat~ l ,_ arh what is the name of •••••••• AN HON. MEMBER: Alcan? . MR. CROSBIE: No, not Alcan. What is the name of the outfit •••••• AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible MR. CROSBIE: What, no, the company.that builds all the mobile homes and •••••• MR. DAWE: Atco. MR. CROSBIE: Will people likeAtco be asked to make proposals, or others, or how is it planned to spend that $440,000.? Those are my comments on the program the minister has announced.

It is very good, it is reasonable and possible to be carried out because, seventy-five to ninety percent of the money will come from the Government of Canada. I remind the minister that I asked him last night - when he speaks, to advise us as to when the new public housing rental scale will come into effect7 The scale as revised downwards is very important and the Government of Canada has approved it. If it is not yet in effect in Newfoundland, when will it be in effect? Is our Government going to adopt it? What is holding up the implementation oLit?

In connection with the subsidized rental ,scale, as the minister knows, or his advisors certainly know, there are a lot of other problems in connection with that scale. What is the situation now in connection with overtime earnings of people Who are living in subsidized, rental units? Has there been any improvement there?

There was quite an outcry a year or so ago because . overtime earnings are sometimes not reported until the end of the year and rents were increased tremendously when the overtime earnings for the previous year were reported to the authorities, and this causes a tremendous amount of controversy because it appears that a man who works hard and earns overtime is penalized by the fact that he has to pay greater rent. Is there going to be any change in the inclusion of overtime earnings in income for subsidized rental purposes?

If the minister would advise us on that too, it would be a great - would be of great interest. I think that is enough for now, I will have a couple of more points later. MR. DAWE: I will try to reply, but I do not think I have all the questions. 67!)9

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Pa,a 4 ~- apb The firat part of the quaation, how could we carry out thia proMram, the money we have is financed by a grant from the Province of$954,000. receipts of cash brought forward from the previous year $541,000. and anticipated sales and cash provided in 1969-70 for the Windsor Land Assembly $135,000. making a total of $1,630,000. MR. CROSBIE: That would be our share of it. MR. DAWE: Our share - also we have a provision there - that is the correct figure Mr. Chairman.

With regard to subsidized housing, where it will be" located in the Province, we have not actually determined the full extent of the program this year but, we are going to put in some at Grand Falls and Windsor, Gander, St. John's and other centres. This would be probably the principal centres, but as I say the program itself is not clearly defined but we have these, Grand Falls, Windsor, St. John's, Ganaer etc. definitely in mind for some subsidized housing. With regard to - the bon. member mentioned shell housing, we hope to construct fifty within the City of St.

John's - I am sorry, twenty-five within the City of St. John's, and we hope to put some in Grand Falls, Corner Brook, Fortune, Happy Valley and possibly some in the Conception Bay area or some other area of the Province. This is at the beginning of the program, and we hope to develop this into a Province-wide program and it is something that I am personally' interested in, coming from a rural area. I think that if we can get even further modifications of this program it could ·assist man of our people in Newfoundland to obtain home-ownership that they would find difficult otherwise.

I was amazed a ~ew weeks ago when I visited the Community of Port de Grave, and I saw a chap there, I ~topped as I passed and visited his home under construction. He was building a house there himself thirty by forty - . full size basement, and this will have all the modern conveniences, and this gentleman went in and cut a lot of the timl;Jer himself and he had assistance from the family - and he told me that he will construct this house for the sum of $4,00~. What I am trying to point out •••••• MR. MURPHY : Not including materials of course 6800

MR. DAWE: Yes, including materials, everything $4,000. That is what I say - in the rural areas, if this type of person could go to some agency of . Government to get a loan of four or five thousand dollars, and use their own force, and their own friends, and their own family, and in many cases they have land at reasonable cost, or probably it would be given to them by the father of the family or some other means, and I think if we could expand this program, we would be amazed how many people in the Province could be helped to get a home at a reasonable amount.

They would put in their own time, and they have friends and family that could help them, But as I say, I personally am very interested in this shell housing scheme. It is nothing new1 nothing to that extent is new, but I hope that,we probably hope to develop it further than it has been developed within • the Province. MR. CROSBIE: How is it going to work? MR. DAWE: This will be financed through C.M.H.C. in the regular manner and then naturally this will be financed on the long-term loan with C.M.H.C. and when the mortgage is paid off, it would apply to all types - as other types of C.H.M.C.loans. MR.

CROSBIE: Yes, but I mean the houses will have to be a certain standard if C.H.M.C. is going to lend on them, . and how are you goin~ to encourage the purchaser to finish the House? Is some of the money going to be held back? What are the mechanics of the whole deal? MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that we hope to at least be able to provide sufficient money - to hold back enough money to be able to buy at least the materials to finish the house and then the person himself will naturally finish the house with his own labour.

We are talking along the lines now of at least providing the materials to finish the house. MR. CROSBIE: Excuse me, there is another question that has not been answered. MR. DAWE~ The bon. gentleman wants to ask som~ething MR. CROSBIE: Was this on shell housing? MR. MURPHY: Yes, I just want to try to develop this a little better. 6801

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Pa~e 6 -- apb MR. CROSBIE: I was going to ask - I am sorry Mr. Leader MR. MURPHY: That is all right chief. MR. CROSBIE: This is very important, you see, if there is going to be a shell house built that is, that the foundation and the outside of the house is going to be there, and water and sewage and certain other basic things are going to be there, it is going to be financed by C.H.M.C., now, how much are they going to advance under the mortgage, and what kind of a carrot is there going to be to encourage the person?

You do not want people moving into these shell houses and living in the shell and doing nothing else for the next ten years and have the thing becoming a slum. So, what is the carrot to encourage the person who buys the house to finish it? Is C.H.M.C. going to hold back part of the mortgage, or will title not be transferred to theml Perhaps title will be held by the Government and he will not get the title until he finishes it. What provision is there going to be to make sure that the purchaser finishes off the house? MR. DAWE: Mr.

Chairman, the title will be vested in the owner, not in the owner, the mortgagee, the title will be vested in him under the mortgage, an~ as I stated,consideration is being given to probably having a hold-back to provide materials to finish the house. I am not familiar with the larger centres, I can see the question the bon. member raised, we do not want to construct slum housing, but I think most of the people who move into this type of housing will certainly use his own resources, or his own ingenuity, or the assistance of other means to finish his house once he is in it.

Sometimes we are going to be amazed by what these people can do. It is the Newfoundland tradition to do this type of housing, I think practically all the houses, or seventy percent of the old type of houses in this city werebuilt in this manner, and quite a few I am sure throughout the Province. This has been the tradition of Newfoundlanders, and I think that we can assume that they will just continue along these lines. Naturally we will do anything we can to assist and make " any recommendations to C.H.M.C. to further the finishing of their homes. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Chairman, on the same subject and it is very interestin~ I must say, housing as we have discussed today make us realize what a great 6802

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Page 7 -- apb need that it fills to provide houaea, but we have heaxd so much on housing in recent years. I have here the Throne Speech ~f 1968, wherein the Throne Speech says " my ministers have constantly sought ways and means to reduce the cost of housing and they are very pleased to have the announcement made on this occasion that two new factories are to be established at once for the construction of houses that are intended to sell at prices substantially lower than those prevailing throughout the Province today." Now these were those prefab houses.

We were going to have one at Stephenville employing 200 people .to produce a minimum of 500 new houses each year. The one at Bay Roberts was to employ 75 men, and produce about 200 houses a year I believe. But anyhow, basically this was a great scheme at that time, and this is only two years ago. I do not know just what the situation is at Stephenville - how many of these two hundred people are working, or of the seventy-five at Bay Roberts and these,:o~ how many have actually been manufactured.

Now, when we speak of shell housing, I presume it is where you get the experienced man perhaps to erect the frame of the house for you, the plumber installs his plumbing perhaps, and the electrician the electrical work. 1 presume this is done by people that are qualified and certified to do these things. I presume then that the person will take over the house, not occupancy, I cannot see them moving in with tarred paper on the outside to provide shelter or something like this. He will do what we call the actual sealing up of the house inside with wallboard and so on and so forth. AN HON.

MEMBER: It is completely finished on the outside. MR. MURPHY: It is completely finished, clapboard and - oh I see, that is excellent, that is excellent. Of couse, with the facilities in there, the electrical and the so on and so forth, he will then start to seal up the rooms with whatever type of material he wants to use on the inside - his wallboard and so on and so forth.

I think that is excellent, but, earlier - and I have a copy of a statement that the Premier made when this was announced, it sort of led astray - where he move in and then he starts to add on a room here and a room there and this type of thing - you know - it is sort of building something that~•~ not really got specifications. 6803

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Page 8 -- apb MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): (Inaudible) MR. MURPHY: Well this was the information that was left, I am just trying to get the Premier's statement on the thing. I think we can follow fairly well what the minister - and I think it would be. an excellent idea, and I do not know what has been done - perhaps the issuing of a pamphlet or something just describing the process, perhaps it is in the National Housing sphere of Central Mortgage and Housing.

I think it is an excellent idea, and while I am on this, what has happened - and perhaps this does not come under the authority of this, but what has happened to the co-operative housing scheme where I think much the same thing was followed - where a group of people with different talents got together and perhaps ten or twelve started building homes? There had to be twelve you know and so on and so forth. I think they produced houses some seven or eight thousand dollars less than the market price.

I can see this shell housing, and following the bon. minister's remarks about areas like Bay Roberts and so on and so forth, and when we go anywhere in this Province just about every home has been constructed by the people within the area and you would want a bulldozer to knock them down in most cases because, they are very substantially built. I am just wondering,in the Urban areas like St.

John's and what not, when we speak of $4,000. of course it is very unrealisitc relating to a city area where perhaps your land today would cost you three, four, or five thousand dollars, but follwoing on this grand idea that the minister has emntioned, where we have so many acres that are set aside in land-banks, I presume this will reduce very substantially the cost of a building lot and that this is the general purpose of the thing, for the building of home and for homeowner plans. Also on housing, and I might bring this up now - I mentioned it in passing last night.

Is it the intention, or is the corporation giving any idea or any thought to the operation of the homes. They operate apartments, now I do not know if this comes under this actual vote - it may, like the apartments at Churchill Square and at Pepperrell. I am thinking more of the homes in the area of Whiteway Street as I mentioned last night. Every year, not every year, perhaps that is an overstatement, but for some 6804

June 10, 1970, Tape 1199, Page 9 -- apb years we have always had an increase of rents. They have gone from approximately eighty dollars, and the excuse given has been administration. I feel, and I may be wrong, that a lot of these people would like to purchase the homes on this rental basis. If the commission itself cannot operate at a profit why not sell them to these people, let ·them pay them off and they will own them eventually.

Some of them are at the stage now I imagine where fairly heavy maintenance cost and so on will be occurring as I think a lot of them are in the eighteen, twenty, twenty-two year bracket. But has the Corporation given any thought to allowing those people to eventually own their own homes? Another question, and I do not want to put too many in the Minister's mind. MR DAWE: In reply to that last question - MR CROSBIE: Reply to my questions first. MR DAWE: I will not remember them all, but in reply to the last question.

We have made representations to the Federal Authorities, and they will not, at the present moment, go along with this idea. MR CROSBIE: Which idea? Which idea is it that they will not go along with? MR DAWE: · Selling of the units on Whiteway Street. MR MURPHY: Who will not? The Federal Government? MR DAWE~ . Where do they come in on this,sure this was there before . Central Housing and Mortgage? MR CROSBIE: Oh no! They financed it. MR DAWE: They owned seventy-five per cent of the money. MR MURPHY. And they will not allow those people to purchase their homes?

They would rather see our crow~ operate it at a loss each year, where they have to keep raising the rents and raising the rents and raising the rents? It does not seem to be very practical to me. MR DAWE: There is no loss. They are economic rentals. MR MURPHY: Why the increase? There have been about five incre~ses over the past, in rental. To pay operations costs? You would not call it a loss but they have to raise the rent so that it will not be a loss. Why not let these people 6805

June 10, 1970 Tapo 119f •••• 10 do it and see if they ean operate it without having thi$. MR DAWE: That is correct, Mr. Chairman. They say it is operating cost, maintenance and administration. Now, Mr. Chairman. to get back to, he mentioned shell housing - before we talk on the shell hous~ng, probably this would be of information to the committee as to exactly what we mean by a shell house. Here are the reqtdrements laid down:. First the foUndation and back-fill 6806

June lOth. 1970 Tape 1200 PK - 1 HR.

DAWE: with tiled drains, the exterior of the building completed, and given two coats of paint; heating system installed; plumbing system with three piece bathroom, kitchen sink and provision for a laundry tub, electrical servicing, wallboard installed only on bathroom walls, and ceiling, behind kitchen cupboards and around the stair wells, flooring and underlay installed in bathroom only to permit setting up of the toilet, doors installed for entrance and back only, wood windows are permitted and prefab brick chimney acceptable, exterior walls and ceiling fully installed and covered with a vapor barrier.

This is what could be called shell housina. MR. CROSBIE: Have any been constructed yet, and occupied in Newfoundland? MR. DAWE: Two have been constructed~in Fortune last year. MR. CROSBIE: Did the occupants finish them of or what has happened with them? MR. DAWE: Yes they were finished,and finished very quickly by the occupants. MR. CROSBIE: What was the cost of those? MR. DAWE: $7200 was the cost of one of the houses at the time. With regard to the question, I think, probably the bon. member will correct me, if I leave out any questions he mentions.

Question Five - or part five of the statemen~in addition to houses that have been purchased by the Department of Welfare, the Government have authorized Newfoundland and Labrador Housing to assume the purchase of houses for the needy. Now, Mr. Chairman, this statement is correct. There is a departure from jut .. welfar~ recipients, this -is a trial basis, and we would hope to have more clarification and probably a Government statement could be issued later, But as I say,this is a trial for this type, not just for welfare recipients, and we would hope to access just what this dual type of house would mean.

It is very complicated, but we would hope to find out just by this departure what it would mean regarding houses. MR. CROSBIE: If there are only thirty-three units, how are you going to decide the Department of Welfare recipients? You know the welfare person who gets a home like that is somebody, a man or a womaa or a widow, who has not got a roof over their heads, you mean they are -going to be out in the ' great outdoors if the Department of Welfare does not find them a place, so 6807 i I f

June lOth. 1970 Tape 1200 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: it is cheaper in many cases to buy a place for them, than to rent onel But if you only have thirty-three or forty or fifty units for the needy,in a year, and some of those will have to go to welfare recipients, how is the Government going to decide who is needy and who is not? 1 mean when it comes to housing, in St. John's alone I would imagine there are 2000 or 3000 families at least, you know that need housing, how is the department going to decide who gets these homes7 HR. DAWE: Mr.

Chairman, it is difficult to determine at this time, but we are going to ask Central Mortgage and Housing to assess this type of housing, and this type of purchase housing, and to evaluate what is being done and hope that we can entice them to assist us on this type of house program. As I say again, this is a beginning and we would hope to learn from it, and evaluate,as this program indicates, the thirty-three that are being presently negotiated. We would hope to determine some guidelines for the future of this type of housipg.

With regard to $444,000, this is mainly to construct houses that have been purchased and in all instances where possible tenders will be called for the erection of these houses. With regard to the recommendations of the new rental scales, been we can say that we have~negotiating with Federal autho~ities and at the present time there is no new agreement or acceptance of the new proposal by any of the provinces within the Atlantic Region. However, we are confident that we would hope to have a new agreement signed within a month. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, are you accepting the proposed scale of the Government of Canada or do you have some objection to it? MR. DAWE: We are still negotiating, but we have some reservations. On the whole I think it is a reduction for most of the home owners, probably. I can give an example, I am going to table a copy of this for the benefit of the committee, this is a suggested new rental seale - family income say, $310 per month. The old monthly seale was $72, rent income ratio 23.2 6808

June lllt.h, lU/0 l'li MR. DAlv.E: percent. The new rent scale will be $66 (21.3 percent). I just will give this one example, but we have agreed in principle to this new scale. And another major feature with this, is that once the income the rent scale is set. is frozen for two years. And if a person's income should increase during that time, his rent will remain the same, but at the same time if he should have a reduction in his income, his rent will be reduced for that month. MR. MURPHY: Is there a ceiling or not? MR. DAWE: The maximum ceiling will be twenty-five percent of income. MR.

CROSBIE: Can a person move in who is making $6,000 a year, that is the question. You know is there any ceiling, as to who can occupy subsidized rental? MR. MURPHY: It used to be $4800. MR. DAWE: There is no ceiling to what you enter into a subsidized rental unit. But the maximum that can be deducted is twenty-five percent of income. MR. CROSBIE: But for a person to be eligible to move into subsidized rental units. is it not the rule that you must be under a certain income to be allowed to move in 1 or has this been removed altogether? MR. DAWE: It has been removed altogether. MR.

CROSBIE: I mean our Government have accepted in principle this new rental scale- there are·some other changes or improvements the Government is trying to get I gather. MR. DAWE: That is correct. MR. CROSBIE: Now what about the overtime earnings part of it? MR. DAWE: Overtime income is still taken into account for the person's income. but as 1 say 1 is protected by the two year freeze. Once a person moves into a house 1 and agree~ - the rent foT that time is frozen for two years,if there is any increase.

If his income should increase over and above,after he moves in 1 it is frozen for two years. he is protected to that level, once he moves in and agrees on the rent. EVen if his income should increase he is frozen for two years. ~m. T. HICKEY: Mr. Chairman ·before we pass this ~tem, I would like to say; the idea of shell housing, as I said earlieT, is certainly welcome arid I think.we all agree that it is part of the answer at least to the acute G809

June lOth. 1970 Tap• 1200 MR. HICKEY: housing shortage, I am wondering if the minister will tell us if he has any plans, or if the Government has any ~lana ~o purchase homes for welfare recipients·~der some kind.of ownership plan? When we talk of shell housing, I think Sir, any of us who are familiar with any of the homes in St. John's, in which those people are living, we could certainly say that we have shell housing al~eady. Quite a number of the homes that those unfortunate people have ~o live in can only be classed as a shell.

The minister responsible of Social Services and Rehabilitation in his speech in the Address in.Reply put his finger on this very item, inasmuch as what landlords are doing. And I do not think we can disagree with his comments to a great extent. But there are landlords in this city who are charging rents, unfair rents in terms of what t~ose properties are like, and in terms of the condition of those properties. And, Sir, this brings us to the very important aspect of it insofar as Government is involved. And Government is involved in terms of paying rent for welfare recipients.

I think that while there is a problem with rentals in all of the city, with regards to people on welfare and those who are not, yet I think the Government should move in the direction of solving the problem that they are faced with first, inasmuch as we are paying rents, and in some cases high rents for properties which are not,certainly not worth near the amount that we are paying.

And, I think, Sir, if the Government adopted a program whereby they embarked upon a purchasing plan or a purchasing program of some o~ those better homes, I am sure we could work out an arrangement whereby titles, ownership, could be given to those people or at least a life's interest given to them, and if and when- I think particularly now of widows, people who are incapacitated, I am not thinking necessarily of ablebodied families,. however one would include thi•~8roup as well. I know there are risks involved but I think there is a way to get around them.

The Government could not only save money for themselves but they could imp~ove to a great extent the conditions under which those unfortunate people are living. It would give them a sense of pride in the place where they reside, because they 6810

June lOth. 1970 Tape 1200 PK -5 MR. HICKEY: would know that it is their.home, at least as long as they live. They would take much better care o.f them; and most importantly of all maybe, we would get at these landlords who are fleecing the public and in this particular instance who are fleecing the Government who obviously . controls public money. I think . that it is very important that we give serious consideration to this matter. As I said earlier, no one can condemn the idea of shell housing, I think it is a wonderful idea,and I would hope sincerely that we get ahead with them.

One other point that I would like to make, it would appear that Central Mortgage and Housing are prepared to involved themselves in this kind of a program, and I hope that they do. But I certainly can say, Sir, that they have no money at the moment to assist a young couple who wishes to buy a house.

They advise me that they have no funds, for example, a good house, a house three to five years old, and a couple who cannot get into a new home or indeed any kind of a home under existing mortgage rates, I am thinking of the conventional mortgage type_of company, and whose only hope is to go through Central Mortgage and Housing for at least some kind of a break in terms of interest rate, they will not touch it. They have no funds. They tell me that all their funds are tied up in terms of subsidized rental units. Now, Mr.

Chairman, I' certainiy do not claim to be any expert on housing or on subsidized rental units or anything else. But, I have expressed this feeling before and I express it again, I feel very, very strong about this. I do not think that subsidized rental units are the answer or even the answer insofar as we thi~k it is. I know we are not saying it is all the answer, it is the final answer to t_he houing shortage 1 but I do not think, Sir, it is even part of· the answer, if you look at it from a long range point of view.

I hope I am wrong when I say that the subsidized rental units will .. deteriorate as they have in the past. People are human. By their very nature they cannot have the same kind of interest in an apartment or a subsidized rental unit, which is owned by the Crown, or indeed owned 6811

June lOth. 1970 Tape 1200 PK - 6 MR. HICKEY: by anyone else, where they are paying rent,let it be a lesser amount than they would in the regular market, · but where they are paying an amount of money each month and getting little or nothing in terms of a long range plan in return. I think that under a homeownership plan, even if it were the type of buildings that we are now using for subsidized rental units, under a home ownership plan, Sir, I think, that a great part . of the housing problem would be solved.

I do not think the housing authority people responsible would have nearly! the trouble that they are now having in maintaining those units because obviously those people could look upon their part of that building or that house, whatever the case may be, as there own. Sometime br other they would own it, and their money would not be going down the drain. I would hope that Government, and in particular the minister,would take this into account. this has been suggested time and time again in this House, and I see nothing wrong with at least b~ying it. We are trying shell housing. We are trying subsidized housing.

We are trying many new things. and I think it would certainly be a step in the right direction if we took a look at this kind of program and at least gave it a try. MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, naturally we are very sympathetic with the people concerned, as expressed by the bon. member. But I wish to point out in some cases that subsidized rentals would be cheaper, monthly payments would be cheaper than actually to purchase this type of house.

It would have to be very cheap, it would have to be brought at a very low price. this naturally would be a matter for Government jeciaton, on a matter of this nature, but we are to try making representations to the Federal Authorities from time to time, to try to get-into some part of this housing scheme and that we would continue along these lines• I will certainly take note of the remarks of the bon. member this morning and give it some thought and discussion with my officials and discuss it with government. But he can realize the problem that is involved and the money that would be involved.

It is a problem of all Canada, this type of housing project. G8l2 And the problems associated with housing throughout Canada have been under

JUne lOth. 1978 lil( - I Mi. DAWE: review for so many years, and each few years seem to come up with a new program and probably we may gradually work toward such a scheme as outlined by the hon. member. MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman.

I do not wish to delay the committee, but I made reference to some remarks that the Premier made, and_l just want to set the record straight with my impressions of what the Premier said about shell housing, and this was on opening day, February 8th. and the Premier was referring to young couple getting married, so on and so forth, in settling down, Mentioning houses, He said• it was just, as impossible to get a house to live in, as to buy a DCS to fly, they are both impossible. And then he said; that is why this shell,when three of my colleagues in the Cabinet bro~ght it up we built a few shell houses.

Now what about doing it on a real scale, a couple or 300 houses this year. shell houses7 What about trying it? What is a shell house? I never heard of it. They told me what a shell house was. I said, in God 1 s name why did you wait until this year, why not five years ago, ten years ago? A shell house is a house in Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, in Newfoundland I suppose there have been tens of thousands of shell houses built, but not by any Government.

I have known in the outports of Newfoundland, I have known untold hundreds of cases of a family man who built a shack, a tar paper shac~ one room, two rooms, he goes to live in it. Next year he builds another room on to it, and the year after another. and another, in five,". eight. o~_ten years he has a beautiful home. But he lived in it all the time he was building it, and not paying rent. That is a shell house. Is not that a shell house? Is that a proper name for that house? Somebody knows, is that a shell house? ~d I said, no. I think, it is;the Premier said.

It is a shell house, it is a shell house, a very primitive one, very crude, but that is the way tens of thousands of Newfoundland families have got their homes. Now that is why I brought up the fact where the Premier made that ststement, that the shell house. just build a shack, a tar paper shack, but I do not believe that is the idea of a shell house._ 6813

June lOth. 1970 Tare 1200 MR. SNAI.LWOOD: Hr. Chairman, that h not what is meant l>y shell housing, of course not. MR. MURPHY: No, but on opening day, I am just saying bhe Premier gets up and he makes this great statement where hundreds of these are going to be built, and he goes on. I say tha~ the Premier is absolutely wrong in his

interpretation of a shell house, as understood by the Housing Development. MR. CROSBIE: A hundred per-cent wrong. MR. MURPilY: Well, I just want to make the point - the Premier said, I was wrong. But I just wanted to prove it, and we have Hansard to prove it, so the point is made, and carried. MR. SMALLWOOD: What is the bon. gentleman trying to prove, what is it? MR. MURPHY: To prove that the statement of the Premier, when he was put into the great public of Newfoundland on television, this was the great shell housing program, which is not. It was absolutely the wrong

interpretation of shell housing. That was the only reason I brought it forward, Mr. Chairman. MR. SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman surely must be joking. He has to be joking. I say that historically in Newfoundland from the beginning of Newfoundland's colonization, from the beginning of people settling in Newfoundland, it has been a common-place, and it is now a common-place for men,who have not got the money with which to build a home, to go out and build a one room shack. MR. MURPHY: That is right. MR. SHALLWOOD: That is right and live in it.

And then gradually build extensions to it, until finally after six or eight or ten years, they have got a house nicely built, and nicely finished. But they have iived in it during those years. Now that is a certain form of shell housing. But that is not what this program is that the Government of Canada are financing. They will not finance a tar paper shack. I have myself seen tarred papered shacks, one room covered outside with tarred paper, black paper impregnated. with tar, tar paper, just paper nothi~g else nailed on, with shingle nails. Okayl I have seen that, 6814

June lOth. 1970 Tape 1200 PK - 9 MR. SHALLWOOD: I have seen men live in it. I have been in them. And I have seen them gradually improve those houses, and after eight or ten years they have a very 'nice little house with a couple or three bedrooms and a kitchen and maybe a living room. That is commonplace in Newfoundland, it always was and it is now. And I would venture to say that it will continue to be for a good many years to come in places where either Central Mortgage will go, or will go in~but,on terms unacceptable to men who want to follow the old practice in Newfoundland.

Now that is a form of shell housing. At any rate the idea of building a shell and going to live in it, and while you are living in it complete it, That idea• is as old as the hills here in Newfoundland. But the only thing that has in common with' this new idea of shell housing is that they are both unfinished houses. But there is one devil's own difference between a tarred papered shack arid a house built to Central Mortgage standards! llhen it is a shell and the owner of the shell moves into it, it is at that point on the day he moves in,finished outside to Central Mortgage standards. it is no tar paper shack.

But both of them have this in common, that they are shells, they are unfinished houses. Now make the most of it. Come on be sensible. MR. MURPHY: Mr •. Chairman, I am just t:rying to clear the air. We announced a great program of building shell houses. The Premier gets up, I have read the words, and he liaid,!'is that not a shell house? Is that a proper name for that house?" Now we are talking about a type of shell house that we are planning to build in this Province.

And the Premier said,"is that not the type of house, in other words, is not that a shell hoU$e?"And I said, "no." And the Premier said, "I think, it ia~· u "It is a shell house, it is a ahell house." So I am only clearing the record, that this announcement was made on the thing. And here are the Premier's own words, I am not fabricating any of this. And the Pre•i•~,at the time.when .I said it was not the type, and I had an .idea what type it was, "it is a shell house, It is a shell house." MR. SMALLl~OOD: And so it is. MR. MURPHY: All right, it is a shell house. the Premier said; 6815

Jun• lOth. 1970 TapC! 1 :roo Pit -- HI MR. SMALLWOOD: A tar paper shack with one room, is a shell house. But one built to Central Mortgage atandards,looks handsome outside but empty inside,is a shell house. They are both shell houses. MR. MURPHY~ I was only discussing, Mr. Chairman, - MR. SMALLWOOD: What is the point7 MR. MURPHY: I was only discussing what is happening all the time to this distortiOD:of programs that this Government MR. SMALLWOOD: Distortion is coming now. MR. MURPHY: The distortion is right here on page - MR. SMALLWOOD: Page what? MR.

MURPHY: Tape number eight and we might say it sometime when we get these shell houses and compare it to the Premier's ideas then. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, the remarks that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition refers to there is one statement in there that is certainly nQt correct. The statement that the Government has build shell houses, that is in the same Hansard. The answer to the question asked in this House after that; was that the Government had not constructed any shell houses. In fact the only two that have been done were done by CHMC down in Fortune. So that certainly was not correct.

But this shell housing is an excellent thing to try, Mr. Chairman, but let us not think it is going to produce any miracles. It is a shell, the purchaser has to finish it off, and CHBC or the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation are going to have to pattol it or inspect it, or do their best to see that the people who buy them are even competent to finish them themselves or that they are given some incentive to finish them off inside. Because the pictures have to be put in, or the wallpaper, or painting inside, there are any n\DIIber of things that have to be done inside - partions inside.

There is a lot of work that still have to be done in those houses. So it is not just going to be all that simple or that easy, and it is going to depend upon the qualifications of the people who are going to buy them. But it is certainly worth trying. Now in Marystown, Mr. Chairman, I asked a question about Marystown - 6816

June lOth, 1970 II MR. CROSBIE: Now Question 192 asked by the member for Bonavista North, there are a hundred economic rental units at Marystown, constructed by the two Governments, and forty were unoccupied on February 1st. 1970. There are 160 subsidized rental housing units at Marystown. Forty-siK of those were unoccupied on February 1st. 1970. So I would ask the minister to let us know whether this situation has improved since?

Because over one-quarter of the subsidized rental units were unoccupied about two years after the project was finished, and almost half of the economic rental units were unoccupied on February 1st, 1970. So has that position changed since? And I ask the minister what is the experience under the resettlement program with subsidized housing? Are the fishermen and others moving in accepting subsidized rental to this concept or are they moving their own houses in or khat is happening in that respect? MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, the first part of the question asked by the bon. member for St.

John's West, the economic units occupied out of one hundred, we have fifty-two occupied at Marystown. And the subsidized units 128 are occupied, out of a 160. With regard to people moving into resettlement. They move into this subsidized housing and accepting it most willingly, and many of them are using this type of housi~g just for the sufficient time to construct a home of their own.

But in all instances people are accepting this type of housing in the . resettlement areas, and as I say they are going along with it and using this means in some instances, to constuct a house of their own, and in all cases it has been accepted by all people concerned. MR. CROSBIE: Well in co~nection with economic development, now the minister has not said, but ~~assume that we.should, that the Come-by-Chance project is going ahead, and the Melville Project is underway now at Stephenville and Happy Valley.

This is certainly going to require, you know~massive developments in housing and municipal services in the Come-by-Chance/ Clarenville area, Happy Valley and Stephenville - so is the minister including in this program, you know developments at Clarenville or is there going to G817 ...... .. • ·j · ~ .

J,..ne lOth. 1970 Tape 1200 PX - 12 MR. CROSBIE: be a n~r town near Come-by-Chance. Just where are we in the Clarenville/Come-by-Chance area because all that work is going to have to be done by the Government. What is the position on Happy Valley and Stephenville? What is the program including for those three areas? MR. DAWE: With regard to Come-by-chance, Mr. Chairman, it is not quite decided what type of a development will take place at Come-by-Chance. It is not anticipated that a major house requirements will be made immediately.

You know that many communities are in close proximity of the developments at Come-by-Chance - and it is our understanding that the personnel required in the construction will be relatively few, and no doubt accommodations could be found at Clarenville or some of the other centres. There will be some houses required for the construction at Stephenville. Naturally we could deal with it then, but we do not anticipate major house construction required in Come-by-Chance in the immediate future. Naturally we wo.Id have plenty of time to take any steps that would be necessary at some other time.

With regard to Stephenville - we have quite a nunber of houses there now within the Base itself. There is no housing shortages envisaged at present. And we are planning some house construction in Happy Valley area of Labrador under the DREE program and this will be going ahead in conjunction with the development there, Ae I say,we do not foresee any major requirements immediate11in the development or the construction of these major projects. and that we would have sufficient time to anticipate any major requests of this nature. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr.

Chairman, there is something that has never been said in this House, and it is not bein~ said anywhere publicly, that may or may not be true, I am sure I do not know. I have a dark and dirty suspicion that it maybe true. What is being said privately in Canada today in certain circles is this; that if a valuable mine, a mineral despoit is discovered and it is made into a mine or if oil is discovered, and oil wells are put into operation, and some processing is done of the oil when it comes up out of the earth, or if some other natural resource development is launched and 6818

June 10, 1970 IW MR. SMALLWOOD: whether it be a paper mill or a mine, or an oil well, or some other form of natural resource development, if it takes place at a point where infrastructure bas to be provided - that is to say, streets, curbs, gutters, houses, schools. hospitals and other public services - it does not pay to have it. It is better for the nation not to have it. That economically it does not pay - the balance sheet - the dollar balance sheet - condensed. MR. WELLS: That would not be true of Labrador City where the company - MR.

SMALLWOOD: Whether the company does it or the G overnment, it costs approximately the same. This is not my theory. I am only describing it. I am not expounding it - that the balance sheet of the nation of Canada, or the balance sheet of the Province of Ontario, or the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, would show on a cash flow that it does not pay the economy of the Province or of the nation to have a natural resource development on a big scale, when it requires the expenditure of very large sums of money to providefor the infrastructure.

Now on first flush . that sounds like the craziest thing that was ever beard. That sounds so far out, so improbable, so unrealistic, that you would think it was the frothing of a child. And if you pursue the question with those who expound it, you will say, well what do the people do? What do the twenty-one million population of canada do1 What do they do1 Bow do they live? Bow do they go about living? And the answer is, they gather together in a small number, a very small - the number is sometimes as low as twenty.

They gather themselves together, the twenty-one million people or twenty-five as it will be, thirty _ as it will be - gather themselves together in small numbers of communities, say twenty - in the whole geography of Canada - twenty. Montreal, eight million population. Toronto, ten million population. Eighteen million. Vancouver, five million population and so on and so on. Twenty centers of population, and the people in those twenty centers, not producing minerals, not producing wheat or potatoes - 6819

.June 10, 1970 Tape #121f Page 2 JW or fish - not producing pulp and paper. And you say what will they produce? How will they live? Where does Canada get the dollars to live on? If you have twenty or twenty-five million people in Canada living in twenty cities, twenty at Metropolitan centers - how do they live?

And the answer you .a!e given is- the answer you are given is that they buy their food and they buy their needs from anywhere they are made, with dollars that they earn . by producing highly sophisticated scientific things - the last word in scientific development in electronics, science and so on and so on. Now that sounds crazy. Probably because it is crazy. Probably. But when you stop to think of a new oil refinery and a new paper mill in Come-by-Chance if you had to begin from scratch, from scratch - There is not a thing there.

You go in and build a factory and you build another factory and you have to build houses - and streets and curbs and gutters - and schools and hospitals - and parka, and the rest of the infrastructure. In the end the economy is better off if you had not done it at all. The Committee might be greatly surprised to know who,the names of some of the people who are stating this point of view. Not only stating it, but advocating it. The Comaittee might be vastly surprised. Certainly there is a vast shrinkage of population, shrinking together, up and down North America. It is not only Canada.

It is in the United States even more - no about the same - the same ratio as in the United States. A tremendous shrinking coming together of the population into ever-larger centers, and the countryside is getting to be more and more deserted, the rural areas - the countryside is getting to be more deserted. And this is back of all of this talk we hear, Up in Ottawa now, you hear the demand that the Govern.ent is ignoring the urban needs of Canada - the city needs of Canada. A great new impetus being given right now to talk about urban needs -the needs of, the urban needs of Canada. The air is full of it.

The air is full of it. And all the political parties are regrouping - they say that the centers of power are going to be in a few cities of Canada - that the City of Toronto for instance, the City of Toronto sends to the House of Commons - how many? G820

June 10. 1970 Tape 11201 •••• l .1\.J Twenty-five? The whole Province of Canada. the whole Province of Newfoundland sends seven M.P. 'a. The City of Toronto sends twenty-five or thirty. One city. Let the City of Toronto get to be a place of six or eight or ten million people in the next ten. tifteen years, and they will send to Ottawa to the House of Commons, they will send fifty or sixty M.P.'s in one City. The same in Montreal - the same in Winnipeg, the same in Vancouver. And the center of gravity, the whole center of power, the center of political strength and power, will vest in a few spots.

And you will have the peons, the peasants of Canada living in tHe background province. Every instinct in me rises up in rebellion against that concept. Every instinct in me. I am almost ready to go to war. I do not want to see Newfoundland washed down the drain. I do not want the national policy of this nation and the Parliament and Government of Canada to be a policy of looking upon Nova Scotia and· Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland. and a big ses-ent of Manitoba, and a large

section of Saskatchewan and even of Alberta. and say one third of Ontario - all regarded as just trash, and that the real Canada is going to consist of the eighteen or twenty or twenty-five great centers of population. If that is the destiny of Canada, if that is the destiny, it is pretty bleak and pretty unenticing, unattractive. And yet Hr. Chairman, if you watch carefully what is happening in Ottawa today, once you have this key that I have just described - have that key in mind and watch what is being said, and watch what is being done.

And watch the demands of the political parties, and watch the propaganda that is coming out of the political parties today. When Mr. Stanfield gets up and denounces the Federal Government for the lack of attention to the great urban centers, This is becauae polls that have been taken and studies that have been made indicate to hia, to his advisors, that this is where the line of thought of the Canadian people is tending and trembling.

And when you find demands for-a new department of government, the J>epartment of Urban Affairs - the Department of City and Urban Affairs - every clue that you get once you have that one key, I think will indicate to you that this is the latest mod thinking. Nov how long that will last 6821

June 10, 1970 Tap• 11201 P•a• 4 JW I do not know. It may just eome and go. It may be just a flash in the pan, but I know that this is the thinking of some surprising people on all sides of politics in Canada today, And in that thinking, if it takes hold, · if as it gets the upper hand, the whole Province such~Newfoundland becomes just a nuisance, just a nuisance that does not fit into that pattern. If that pattern is adopted then God help the part of Canada that does not suit it, that does not fit it. It is a misfit. What are you doing down there on that Island, you half million people?

You should become a suberb of Toronto. What are you doing down there? It does not pay to do this and do that and do the other. It pays to move the whole population out and bring them in to the great megalopolis of Montreal, the great megalopolis of Toronto, or the great megalopolis of Winnipeg or some other great center of population, where people will be trained and re-trained and put to work in electronics plants and so on and so on.

Never mind your cod, never mind your pulp and paper, we will earn more money at the other thing, and we will buy the pulp and paper, and we will buy the this and we will buy the that with the dollars we earn in sophisticated industrial activity. That is the thinking. That is the thinking, and if anyone thinks I am imagining this, his shirt is out a long way. This is the latest thinking among the moguls and the mandarins in Ottawa. This is the thinking. And you are going to hear more and more about it. It is the first time I think this maybe has been said publicly in any House across Canada.

And I am saying it.only to put members of this House on guard. MR. BURGESS: Mr. Chairman, in reference to what the Premier has just said: On my last visit to Ottawa I heard this discussed by some very surprising people also - there were some Federal Cabinet Ministers actually, and with reference to the cost of developing res~urces - the cost of the infrastructure and everything else that they just do not see that it is a worthwhile project.

But I respectfully submit that this cannot, that this theory cannot be a lasting theory because with.the population explosion that we have in the world today, in twenty years from now, we are going to have 6822

June 10, 1970 Tape #1201 Page 5 JW to develop and exploit every resource that is possibly known on earth, let alone one country. So I say that this theory, while I say it is just a theory now and that is what it will remain, because I do not think it could be this line of thinking could last very long, or survive very long. But I would like the - the Premier made a remark, he said this has never been said in this Bouse before - just that statement itself - there is one thing that has been said in this Province.

It has not been said in this House, but it was said in this Province - in Goose Bay in January of 1969, and it was a statement of the bon. the Premier and since we are dealing with housing, I would just like to ask the minister con~erned, where are the 200 homes that were going to be built in Goose Bay in 1969? What about the building boom that we were going to have three months after this particular meeting that I am referring to in Goose Bay, where tbe people were in such a frame of mind after that meeting Mr.

Chairman, that they felt it would not be possible to walk around Goose Bay without tripping over construction equipment. 200 homes, we were told, were going to be built in 1969, that year. No problem. A building boom - the likes that have never been seen before. I would like to know where these 200 homes went Mr. Chairman. be Recently I have beard that there are fifty homes going to~constructed there, ~ut if it is the same fifty homes - if it is any

section of the 200, well I suppose we will be waiting until doomsday for them. We are supposed to have Mr. Chairman - we are told if this Lake Melville project goes ahead - we are supposed to have 7,000 workmen in there, new workmen that will have to be imported from the Island. We are supposed to have 7,000 people in there, I and if thatproject is to go ahead as announced by this Government and the people involved , well then,the erection of homes has to start now. It would have to start now.

Now I would like to know if in the various discussions this morning on subsidized rental housing - are there any plans on the part - could the mini•ter inform me - are there any plans on the part of his department in government to establish subsidized rental units in the Goose Bay area? Are there any intentions on the part of government G823

June 10, 1970 ..... tl to establish subsidized rental units in Labrador West, in Wabush and Labrador City areas? In relation to the shell housin~, I dealt with this matter yesterday Mr. Chairman, when· I spoke of the need, the great housing need of Labrador West, and I see that in a document issued from the department and by the minister, the

section dealing with shell housing - shell housing being established in growth areas of the Province, in major growth areas of the Province, such as Stephenville, Come-by-chance, Happy Valley, Corner Brook, Grand Palla, Winsor, Gander, St. John's, Port-aux­ Basques, Burgeo, Harbour Breton, Grand Bank and so on. Are there any plans for shell housing in the Labrador City and Wabush area? Now I would like - if there is any reasonable, logical answer as to why the 200 homes that we were promised in Goose Bay in 1969 - why they were not built - I would like to know.

I would just like to know why ~hose homes were not constructed as promised. Like so many other promises that we bear. MR. SMALLWOOD: I think I am better able to answer that than thJminister is, because I am more in touch with it than he is, with the Stephenville project, The Stephenville project is going ahead rapidly now. Sir Robert MacAlpine and Sons are going full blast. The first small ship load of stuff has arrived at Stephenville, and the mill is going ahead.

And either it is going to be enlarged substantially beyond the original plans, or else a mill of another kind,also using wood, is to be built there beside that. So that there is no question whatsoever about the paper making enterprise at Stephenville. Now the signifigance of that for Labrador is the fact that Labrador ia the source of the raw material, the pulp wood, to wit: Lake Melville. And in Lake Melville, Happy Valley is the capital and will be the capital for this purpose.

And it is in and around Happy Valley that thousand• of loggers will either live permanently or live for part of the year, one or the other, s0111e doing one, and some doing the other. And the quantity of wood, theRuantity of wood that ·vill be cut in Lake Melville is equal to, in fact,is more than equal to the total cut of Bowater's great 68~4

June 10, 1970 Tape 11201 Page 7 mill in Newfoundland, together with the Price Mill · at Grand Falls, ~is involves thousands of men here on this Island to supply those two mills . with their pulp wood. Thousands of men! And no matter what is done in Labrador,in ~opinion, no matter what is done there, more men will be needed to cut a given •uantity of pulp wood than would be needed here on this Island, due to the general nature of things - the topography, the geography, the climates, the distance of Labrador from other parts of the Province, the absence of sufficient workers within Labrador itself.

It will require a lar!er number of men per a hundred thousand cords of pulp wood than it would require on this island to produce a hundred thousand cords. Cord for cord or a hundred thousand for a hundred thousand, it will take more workers in Labrador than here. JW Now tbe problem that is developing and it is developing very positively, developing now, and a very worrisome problem, and a menacing one, is the fact that there is no rush to get these jobs. Perhaps that is not so surprising. Hay I say to you,Mr.

Chairman, that here on this Island of Newfoundland there is no rush to get the jobs to produce the pulp wood for the mill in Corner Brook and the mill in Grand Falls. There was a time when there was. But that time is gone, and Bowaters especially have again and again been down many many hundreds of men at a time,that they wanted and did not get- did not get. They did not get them - they were down many hundreds of men. There is no particular rush on this Island to go at the job of cutting pulp wood. And now it turns out,perhaps a little more surprisingly, I do not know, maybe not.

Maybe there is no reason for more surprise. that in Lake Melville there is no rush of men to go at the pulp wood industry. And this fact is now emerging. And one of the problems associated with this great papermill enterprise . is going to be the problem, is already the problem of an ample supply of workers to produce the tremendous quantities of wood that will be needed. Where are they going to come from? How many of them will come from within the present population of Labrador? How many of them will be 6825

~une 10, 1970 Tape #1201 Page 8 willing to move to Happy Vall~y and live there, stay there, make it their home? That will determine how many houses will be needed to be erected, of course. And having got from within the borders of Labrador, brought to Happy Valley, all the men that are likely to go to Happy Valley, how many will still have to be brought from the Island of Newfoundland? And if Bowaters are having trouble getting sufficient men, I do not whether Price are or not. I do not know. But I do know from Bowaters themselves that they have had trouble getting sufficient men.

If there is trouble JW on the Island on the part of one or both of the two papermills to get sufficient men, how will the logging operation in Lake Melville get sufficient men from the Island of Newfoundland in case they need to get them?

If Labrador does not produce enough men, and this is men in thousands - if Labrador does not produce enough men to give, to handle the supply of pulp wood, 800,000 cords a year.equal to the entire cut of Price and Bowaters, lf they canuot get enough men for that purpose in Labrador, where are they going to get them7 You say in Newfoundland, but in Newfoundland they do not always get as many men as they need to get, to supply the two mills that are here on this Island. Will you get men to leave Newfoundland and go to Happy Valley?

I say now this is suddenly emerging as a problem of terrible urgency, and of course basic importance to the future of Newfoundland. I heard a lot about it yesterday from Mr. Doyle and Mr. Brownrigg. They are deeply concerned about it. It is all right to get up here and make a cheap political speech, and one should not play cheap politics with industry and men's jobs, men's livlihood. I never played cheap politics. That is one thing I do not know how to do. MR. BURGESS: Point of order! I asked a question about housing and the hon. Premier is now giving us a political statement - MR.

SMALLWOOD: What is the point of order? MR. BURGESS: I asked a question on housing - MR. SMALLWOOD: What is the point of order? MR. BURGESS: The point of order is that the hon. the Premier is talking about G8~G

June 10, 1970 Tape 11201 Page 9 jobs and the difficulty - I asked a question about housing - it is not relevant. JW . MR.. SMALLWOOD: there at all. That is not a point of order. There is no point of order I say that when we talk about houses in Happy Valley, what we are talking about is men. If the men exist they will have to have housing. If they do not exist they will not need housing. The amount of houses that will be needed in Happy Valley will be determined by the number of men, and this is what I am talking about. This is precisely what I am talking about.

The number of houses, because that depends upon the number of men and I am pointing out that this has suddenly become a problem of serious urgency - getting the men. No one is going to build houses - no government. no company. no one is going to build houses in any consequential number. nor go to.any considerable expense in 68~7

lb. June 10 1970 Tape 1202 Page 1. Happy Valley for people unless the one doing it is pretty sure that ~here are going to be people who want those houses. We have had one lesson,we built houses in Marystown as has come out here earlier today. We built houses in Marystown. I do not know if the answer was forthcoming but a substantial proportion of those houses stand there today empty, beautiful homes - stand vacant today - Now that is in Marystown. That is in Marystown, beautiful homes and cost a l~t of money to put there, lying empty.

Now no one is going to build houses in Happy Valley until there is some pretty reasonably safe confidence that they are going to be needed, that men are going "to move in there. MR.BURGESS: When were they told? MR.SMALLWOOD: They were told because it was assumed that the men would go there. It was assumed, it was taken for granted that men would wish to pour in and earn good money at that trade. MR.BURGESS: There was nu jobs then, it is sixty-nine I am talking about, this summer in sixty-nine, 200 homes, this summer sixty-nine. MR.

SMALL\olOOD: Because it was assumed that this summer, last summer and this summer there would be need of them. It was a reasonable assumption it was a sensible and reasonable assumption. It was a very reasouable assumption. The mill is under construction now it is supposed to be ready by December, or January. December of next year, or January of the year after. That is a year and a-half · from now. A year and a half from now the mill is supposed to be ready. The mill is supposed to be ready a year and a-half from now.

A tbousand ton mill, turning out more paper than the great mill "f.n Grand Falls, a thousand tons a day. It is rated actually it will turn out more. It cannot make paper except with wood, where is the wood coming from? This is the problem I am talking about, not cheap politics. This is a very serious problem. MR.BURGESS: In 1969, cheap politics we saw it then~ MR .S~IJ\LLl~OOD: The cheap politics in 1969 or 1968 or whenever it was when a 68~8

lb. June 10 1970 Tape 1202 page 2. certain hon. gentleman came on his hands and knees to another person, that is when the cheap politics was, and then it turned out not to be very cheap, and it has Bever been cheap since~ Cheap in one sense but not in another/ Very expensive! Some of the notes that are being held around were presente~ Very expensive but cheap in another sense! In fact there are some people who seem capable of being cheap and expensive at one and the same time, if you would take cheap in one field and expensive in another.

MR.BURGESS: That will all be brought out. ~m.WELLS: Now to stop this I would like to get back to housing again. The Premier,as he indicated~he was not expounding the theory, he was saying that it existed. He was pointing out something else too in the process of doing it. That unless natural resoucces are found available already near existing community facilities, normal community facilities, the theory is that it does not pay to develop. And then he '"ent on the expound this or to explain this other theory which he said he himself did not personally adopt.

That ia an extreme, we have heard it.There are a variety of extremes. There is another group--I forget the name of,what do they call those the ones that suggest that we abandon everything - all laws, all systems, all structures, all communities and - MR.CROSBIE: An anarchist - MR.WELLS: l~o, not an anarchist, the nihilist, we abandon everything that we no'' have because' we have been infrastructured to death, choked to death, the common man gets no benefit from all of this, all of what we are doing today forget it get rid of it and go back to the earth and start all over again, the nihilist. That . is an extreme.

The other one, the Premier just explained, and explained that he personally dtd not adopt,is another extreme. The truth lies somewhere in between. · It is not true,in my opinion, to say that if natural resources are found anywhere removed or substantially removed from existing community ..: facilities forget them, do not develop them. That is 6829

lb. June 10 1970 Tape 1202 page 3. wuong. The truth is forget them unless the cost of deve.J.opment is going to far exceed the benefit and include in the cost of development the cost of providing community facilities • . Then you forget them.until those resources develop an economic value building the facilities and developing. As an economic principle that has been with us for hundreds of years, .It is only we common sense, It is when/deviate from that principle that we get in trouble. And this is what the hon. member for St.

John's West and myself have been saying for some time, This is what is getting us in trouble, deviation from that principle. As we deviated at !1arysto"'ll• (the Premier referred to it) with the Marys town shipyard. When we get over to the fisheries vote we will see it again • The subsidies to cover the losses on the Marystown shipyard~ . That does not include the losses incurred here in the housing problem at Harystown, where fifty units I believe were built at a fantastic cost. Some of the four bedroom units, two of them cost $67,000 each.

Tl.at is right the answer to question ,I forget, it was asked earlier in the session, on the number of units built at ~rarystown, the cheapest one was $17,000. There were twenty,thre~ bedroom units,built at $17,000 each. Then there a number of two, three, four bedroom units, and they vary, there arr ten at $40,000 and above, MR.CROSBIE: Built for the shipyard. )iR.Wl::LLS: RightL Built for the Marys town shipyard, in counection "'ith that.

So not only are we taking a loss on that and subsidizing that, look at what we are doing here too - the rentals - the highest rental is $209 a month, for the two_units I presume the two $67, 700 unit~. That is not an economic rental for a $67,000 structure, no where near it. The economics of it are crazy. So it does not pay to do these things,•wben the cost of doing everything that has to be done in connection with it, far exceeds the henefit. This is what we have been talking about all along. ERC~another classic example.

Even if you look at the cost of subsidizin~ electricity alone, that alone and it wipes the thing out $3 million last year for about 300 jobs G8~0

lb. June 10· 1970 Tape 1202 page 4. for Newfoundlanders that were not there before. Thereare more jobs than that·at ERCO I understand. But for . Newfoundlanders who did not have jobs and that is our concern here - we got about 300 jobs - $10.000 a job per year -for twenty-five years. That is where it does not make sense. let it sit there. Let the waters of Bay D'Espoir ~low out to the sea and forget about it,if that is what it is going to cost us to develop it. We just cannot afford it. It is as simple as that. So what he says is true. All we are saying is apply it. There is nothing new or revolutionary.

What may be new or revolutionary is the idea that no matter what the resources are or how valuable they are you will let them sit there. forget about developing unless it is near an existing community. And I say that is wrong. Labrador City - Wabush area have proven that to be wrong. Look at the economic benefits of Labrador City - Wabush area to this Province and to Canada as a ~hole and compare it with what it costs. Schefferville. all of it. L'ook at the benefit. Now can anybody say 1 because that vas ~nd that is as remote as ... ~e can get in this Province. That is just about as remote as we can possibly get.

Would anybody say that we should have let that iron stay there and not develop iti Of course not. The simple principle is and it is not new it is not revolutionary. the simple principle is, do a cost-benefit analysis.

If the overall cost of promoting and developing the thing exceeds the ultimate economic benefit, when everything is considered, forget about it and let it stay there another five, ten, . ~1enty or fifty years, until those raw materials or natural resources develop a value that makes it economically feasible or until techniques for development change or communications or whatever the economics of it change to make it feasible. That is all. That is not new or revolutionary. North America was built on that principle. The wealthy United States was built on that principle, and became a successful wealthy G8Jl

lb. June 10 1970 Tape 1202 page 5. country. The British Empire was built on that principle. Nothing new nor revolutionary about it. MR.S~~LLWOOD: The British Empire was ~uilt on slave labour in the Colonial Empire. MR.WELLS: That is right. The cost benefit analysis. The cost of developing it on the basis of hiring slaves did not cost anything or cost little or nothing to feed or not to feed them • . And you take it out and it is worth a fortune. So it is worthwhile doing. It is a simple principle. All we do is apply and we - This is our argument that it has not been applied and it has not been considered.

And classic examples of these are the Marystowtt s.hip,r~;d and ERCO. Just look at the Narystown shipyard, it is question 446, 14··· . is it'! JISt look at the answer. It has been tabled, in the House, it is incredible. And if we ever put together, if anybody ever sits down and figures out the total cost of developing the ERC facilities at Lon~ Harbour an awful lot of us are going to shudder and shake with shame . for a long time to come. MR.BURGESS: Mr.

Chairman, I am sorry the hon. minister - I still did not get an answer to that question about where these 200 homes went to, despite the long political lecture we got. But due to the minister's position Mr. Chairman, I would i~agine that on Oct. 5, 1969 the minister was in attendance at a conference of the Community Planning Association of Canada~ ·where you know I would assume that . somebody from his department would have been there. And the conference was addressed by Mr. Andre Soulier the Asst. Deputy Minister of ~he Federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion.

And at this meet-::=-ing on Oct. 5, 1969 Hr. Chairman, this gentleman, the deputy- minister of this new department, DREE programme, he told the delegates that if anyone went to the people of Labrador and promised them munificent things that would transfer Labrador into a prosperous place 7they would be perpetuating an illusion, and the price would be borne by the people there. 68:J2

June 10 1970 Tape 1202 page 6. The reason I am read!ng that 1Mr. Chairman~is because of this Lake Melville project. Now bow can you reconcile a statement of that nature from a deputy minister of a Federal Department, a man who must have intimate knowledge of the policies and intentions of the federal government and who through a great degree has a great amount of associations with the provincial authorities? Now how can you reconcile that statement with what we hear about that areal I just do not know.

I just cannot get it straight and a lot~of people just cannot see things clearly when you see contradictory statements snd double talk from gove~nment. now I am sorry the hon. minister was not in attendance at that meeting. I had asswned that he would be 1due to his position. But, however, I am sorry that the hon.minister did not have the opportunity to answer my question on this but I did ask him other questions. Are they any plans or designs on the part of government to establish subsidized rental untts in Goose nay and Labrador City and \vabush, and shell housing in Wabush-Labrador City? NR.DAWE: Hr.

Chairman, in reply to the first part of the question,as you know,! was not the minister in October of last year but with regard to subsidized or shell housing at -Labrador City or Wabush we have not received any requests from the council there for this type of housing. I indidated to the bon. member earlier in discussion of these estimates that I am planning to visit that part of Labrador when the House closes and that I will be meeting l·'ith the councils there and if they have any questions on housing~ naturally I will be only too pleased to discuss it with them.

With regard to Happy Valley th.ere ·bavS>een discussions with the town council of Happy Valley and their first consideration is the possibility of some shell housing, in place of subsidized housin~. ·"these ne~otiations will continue, Naturally we are only too pleased to assist housing throughout the Province if it can be accepted and approved by Central Mortgage and Housing, with a view to our budget limitations. We will be visitlnp.,as I say,Happy Valley when I go to Labrador and this will be discussed a8ain and 68~3

lb. June 10 1970 TApe 1202 page 7. the position then will be reviewed at that time. MR.CROSBIE: Before we leave this item~~. Chairman, there is one last point~ According to the answer to the question 446, there are two kinda•of subsidized rental housing at Marystown. One is the Government of Canada- Government of Newfoundland the regular subsidized rental project ~hat we all know about similar to Buckmasters Field etc. and the other is sub- sidized rental housing provided by the Government of Newfoundland for employees of Newfoundland Marine Works Limited down in Marystown.

There were fifty units built at }mrystown cost $1, 310,000, And as the member for Humber East pointed out,these ranged in cost from $17,728 to a high of $67,000. And these units are rented, twenty-one of them are rented to employees of Newfoundland Marine Works Limited. The total rental that is being received a year is $65,238. These rents fall short of meeting ~ the loan repayment and operating expenses by $21,000 .•.

The deposit last year $21,818.49 and that deposit is met wholly by the Government of Newfoundland, not by, it has nothing to do with the Government of Canada, $21,000 last year and it will increase as the year's go on and more repairs have to be done. rental The lowest/being cha.rged is Ul7 a month for twenty units and the highest rental for the $67,000 units is $209 a month. So that is another kind of subsidized rental. but the subs.idized rental for people who are earning good salaries.

Two hundred and seven dollars a month for a house that cost '$67,000 and this is another one of the costs involved in economic development that iai done in the way that the Marystown shipyard or Marystown fish plant was done. Done in a rush, done without sufficient planning aheadl Housing units had to be built to get execut~ves and other top officials to go to Marystown to work at the shipyard and the fish plant. The units had to be built in a rush, the prices \·:ere high because contractor& were only given two months or something like that to build the units. That is what made them so expensive.

Now the Newfoundland

June 10 1970 Tape 1202 page 8. Government is now and will be for years presumably subsidbzing the rental of executives living in these houses at Harystown. So, there is no point, , the argument is not whether housing and so on should or should not be provided. The question is who should it be provided by and what is the r~asonable cost for, and what the cost benefit analysis shows. Because at Marystown it is not only a subsidy for the shipyard, it is not only the public funds invested in the fish plant it is the public funds invested in these fifty houses.

It is the ' public funds invested in the subsidized rental. It is the public funds invested in the economic rental. A lot of its untts are empty now. These are all the kinds of costs involved and lconomic Developotent development has gone •head in such a frenzied way And without sufficient thought being given to it. So it is not a question· of one great principle against another. It is a question of quality, it is a question of how you approach it, how it is done. And things have not been done properly in some instances in this Province anyway. And this is one of the examples.

And that is another cost of this economic development at Marysto";n. Now when all the costs are taken as compared to the benefits of employment and so on,perhaps they even out. But there was no study ever done before, beforehand,to show one way or the ~ther whether this was so, I do not kn~·r that there has ever been one done since. G8:J5 lb.

., June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 1 MR. MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, do you mind if I just ask one question on this remuneration rent board. Is it all right to revert to that, sir, for just a moment. I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, this rent board, is this the rent control board as such? You get to many inquiries about rent control. Is this board active , and is it the idea of the department to set up a board that is accessible to people~ I get dozens and dozens of calls.

I would just like the minister to explain what the capacity of this board is to inspect and establish fair rentals and that sort of things like this - how active is it? How many inquiries are being handled? MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, the board itself meets fairly frequently and it only comes to my attention when disputes in rents •re brought to the attention of the board - any complaint that is made to me,as minister, is passed on to the board for valuation of the complaint. This is under the chairmanship of Mr. Riche~a lawyer, and we have Mr.

Seymour is a member of the Board of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and Mr. Clyde Bradbury 1 down in my department,is secretary of the Rent Control Board and they deal with complaints actually brought to them. I think , for the benefit- of the member, they could be easily made accessible. Any complaints they would have, I would suggest' that they would commdnicate vitb Mr. Bradburv of my department - Mr.

Clyde Bradbury who is secretary of the Rent Control Board and any complaint, I assure you, will be brought to the attention of the proper authorities, down in my department - any complaint you refer to him and i~ will be his position to deal with it. MR. MURPHY: In other words, it is not a full-time board. It is a board that will be called to hear-appeals? MR. DAWE: That is right. It is not a full-time board. MR. CHAIRMAN: 05-01 carry? MR. MURPHY: 03 carried. 04-03 carried. 04-04 carried. Shall 05-0l - is this the group that deals with the subsidized G8~6

June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 2 Mr. Murphy. apartments on Kennas Hill, Buckmasters so on and so forth? MR. DAWE: What is the question again, Mr. Chairman? MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering under - OS Housing Authority - is this the St. John's Housing Authority that is located on Elizabeth Avenue under Mr. Hillier and Mr. Duffett and so on and so forth? Does that come into this? MR. DAWE: Yes Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation does this on behalf of MR. SMALLWOOD: On behalf of the corporation. MR. DAWE: On behalf of the corporation. MR.

MURPHY: I am just wondering if the minister could tell us the number of - what is the occupancy rate now? Are there any of these apartments vacant? Have any of the ground rules changed where they go up and assess points and this type of thing, I think. MR. DAWE: There is no change - the same ground rules apply. There is no maximum salary to seek application •• MR. MURPHY: Just move in there. MR. DAWE: Just move in. MR.. MURPHY: Okay. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, on this item I want to say one word on subsidized rental.

I wish to urge the minister to conclude his negotiations with Ottawa as soon as possible to get the new subsidized rental scale into effect which will be lower. This business of a two year freeze - once your rental has been agreed on, is very good. I am sure it will be welcomed by the tenants in St. John's West, several thousand of them. And if the minister would keep urging that something be done about the overtime provision. It sourlds like it is being improved anyway. It is frozen even with respect to overtime the minsiter says for two years, unless your income goes down and then the rent will go down.

June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 3 Hr. Crosbie. This will be a vast improvement so I hope the minister will conclude this all now, as soon as possible so that the tenants in Buckmasters Field, Anderson Avenue, Cashin Avenue, Hoyles Avenue will all get this new scale in time during the summer and in time for coming events. The minister can assure me that will be so, can he? MR. DAWE: As I indicated to the committee we hope to have these final agreements comp~eted within a month. _MR. CHAIRMAN: 05-01 carried. Shall 11-01 carry? MR: CROSBIE: 11-01 is Blackhead Road - well yesterday, Mr.

Chairman, there were a number of questions that I asked and I think that the Leader of the Opposition asked about the Blackhead Road. Is the minister going to give us some explanation now? MR. DAWE: Could you rephrase these questions again? MR.

CROSBIE: Well some of the problems that are arising there: what kind of public housing is going to be developed on the Blackhead Road( Under the amendment to the Family Homes Expropriation Act, anyone living in a substandard house or a house unfit for human habitation is not compensated by receiving reasonably equivalent - the cost - he is compensated on the basis of the market value of his property, but he has to be offered public housing at reasonable rates so on in the same area. Now what kind of public housing is there going to be on the Blackhead Road?

Are there going to be apartment units , such as Buckmasters Field and Kennas Hill or would these be individual houses, individual units - will the people whose property is destroyed, who have to move into this housing, will they be given an opportunity to buy it over a period of years? Is that being considered? What is going to happen to the area when the project is completed, when construction ceases? Is it going to become a municipality of its own or is it going to be absorbed 68~8

June lOth., 1970, Tape no 1203 Page 4 Mr. Crosbie. by the City of St. John's? If so what arrangements are being made with the Ci~y to take it over? What likely tax rates and water and sewer rates for the people up on The Brow once this project is completed? When is the project going to be finished? When will all the water and sewerage and ~oads be completed? These will do for a start. MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, many of the questions asked by the bon. member a decision has been arrived at with regard to housing.

I have had the opporunity to visit the area on two occasions and hold meetings with groups from the Blackhead and this question of housing is very controversail and we are hoping to provide some type of bome ownership with assistance from the Canadian Assistance Plan. This would be possible on a fifty/fifty basis. Fifty Provincial and fifty per cent Federal. Discussions will be taking place, and they will be investigated by the bon. minister of Community and Social Development, but as I say the question of housing has not been clarified on the Blackhead, It is still under active consideration.

We have the views of the people there concerned and naturally we are concerned with it and naturally as the weeks and months develop some decision will be taken so the people can advise what position the Government will take with regard to housing on the Blackhead.

With regard to some form of taxation and local government, this has not been decided but I feel that prOBably this will be decided by the people themselv~s, probably by some form of referendum or plebiscite I would think and they would indicate to Government, if they would wish to set up some form of local government on their own or to seek amalgamation within the City of St. John's or come under the control of the Metropolitan Board. I think that should be left with the people themselves and proper procedures should be taken to let them decide.

With regard to the completion of the.scheme, we expect all- water 68~9

June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 5 Mr. Dawe. and sewerage, street lighting_ .and the paving part of the project to be completed by the end of August or sometime in September of this year. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, this does not clarify it very much. The Blackhead Road Urban Renewal Scheme has been under implementation now for what? Two years. The scheme itself was developed, I do not know, four years ago, I guess and what was going to be done on the Blackhead Road - I mean the scheme was decided upon then. I cannot see how the minister can say that the additional housing cannot be clarified.

I mean the construction is underway up there. The people are losi~g their properties - they are being dispossessed and a~e g~ing to lose their homes-lf this amendment applies to the Family Homes Expropriation Act, they will not be compensated under that Act. They will be compensated under the former tules. They will get the market value of their property whatever that is, whatever a willing purchaser would pay to a willing seller. Now that can only be applied, as I see it, if there is definite public housing that can be offered to them at reasonable rates. That is what the legislation says.

Surely, it must be known by now what kind of public housing is going to be put on The Brow. This scheme has been underway for seveaal years. It must be know if it is going to be subsidized rental or whether it is going to be economic rental. It must be known whether it is going to be individual houses or whether it is going to be, you know, an apartment type project like Kennas Hill7 These questions must be know • How could the scheme be proceeded with, if they were not known?

As to the kind of municipality, there must be so~ kind of municipality in that area once that ia all finished, because the water and sewerage system and the reat of it ia not going to operate without any cost and it cannot be planned that the cost be met wholly by Government 6840

June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 6 Mr. Crosbie. forever. There must be a contribution from the local residents. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think there is going to be a very serious situation on the Blackhead Road, if this housing question is not clarified now today or if it is not clarified in the next week or two weeks. I mean how can yau operate up there, if the people cannot be told what provision is being made for housing up there, if they are dispossessed or have to be relocated or their home has to be torn down?

I know that some of the complaints made up there may be unreasonable but after all, there are arguments on both sides. If somebody is going to lose his home no matter if it is substandard or no i matter if it is unfit for human habitation, it is still something that he does not have to pay rent for, that he is not paying for, that he does not have to make mortgage payments for. Some of them may not want to move into subsidized rental housing.

The only solutiODl ·l could see would be to provide some kind of unit up there that a person could pay rent towards the ownership of the place, eventually - I mean in this kind of situation. Subsidized rental may be all right and acceptable to some but to others, there is going to have to be some kind of rental purchase scheme and I do not see why you have to have elaborate' houses.

You know these could even be shell houses which would cost from $7,000, $8,000 to $10,000, which the people can buy over a period of years. thing But unless some/concrete iike this is done, I am positive that there is going to be a great deal of trouble up in the Blackhead Road and I do not see - no! it is not carried. You see this is important to the people in the Blackhead Road. It is important in future urban renewal schemes and it is important gener&ay, and there are millions of dollars in public funds involved, Therefore, it just should not be carried without 6841

June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 7 Mr. Crosbie. being discussed. I mean something more than this must be done. If this is all that is being told to the people on the Blackhead Road, then it is easy to understand why there is so much trouble up there. Lack of information as to what is going to happen to them or what is happening to the project. Can the minister give us anymore information? MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, on this point. People there are completely informed of what is taking place on the Blac~head. With regard to housing, I will repeat it.

Where it has not been clarified, the type of housing that is required, it is difficult to give the people to exceed to their request. There is not much of an interest in subsidized housing and they want rent ownership which the Federal Government will not provide and I say this will be a collective decision of the Government and we are prepared to meet with groups from time to time and this is the position. Naturally, I would hope to have a decision of Government as soon as possible. MR.

CROSBIE: I gather fr~m what the minister says then that the people up on the Blackhead Road who are dispossessed, generally speaking, do not waat to move into subsidized rental housing. They do not want to move into public housing. They want provided some kind of housing wheh they will eventually own. MR. DAWE: That is what I informed •• HR. CROSBIE: I believe the miriister said that they are going to see what can be done under the Canada Assistance Act or under Community and Social Development. MR. DAWE: That is for upgrading. MR.

CROSBIE: But in the original plan for the Blackhead Road, it was intended that there be subsidized rental housing provided - is that not 6842

June lOth., 1970 Mr. Crosbie. so? Tape l'lo 1203 MR. DAWE: That is correct. Page 8 MR. CROSBIE: Major units or apartment type units? Which kind of unit? MR. DAWE: Well ••• MR. CROSBIE: Hr. Chairman, I notice that the Premier has told the minister not to answer anYFore questions. MR. SMALLWOOD: I have done no such thing. MR. CROSBIE: Well that is certainly the impression that one receives •• MR. SMALLWOOD: The bon. gentleman ••• ~tR. CROSBIE: Well we can see when the bon. the Premier is whispering and after the Premier has finished whispering, the minister stops answering.

So it should be taken note of ~or the public records. The Premier does-not ·want any information given out on the Blackhead Road. Well the people on the Blackhead Road want to get this information and they want a decision from the Government. MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman, individual and semi-detached units were recommended in the subsidized units. MR. CROSBIE: TI1e position at the moment is that you are not going ahead with these. because the residents in the Blackhead Road do not want them - is that the position? MR. DAWE: Mr. Chairman. we are not saying that we are not going ahead with it.

We are just holding it until we come to some decision as to what the people want ••• MR. SMALLWOOD: What the Government want - not only what the people want. We are talking now about millions and millions of dollars. We have to clear it with Ottawa. MR. CROSBIE: MR. S}IALLWOOD: MR. CROSBIE: I agree with that. And that is why we have not yet decided •• Good.

June lOth., 1970 Tape no 1203 Page 9 Mr. Crosbie. All we want to get in this committee,which we do not get,is some sensible discussion on ~i-at the position is. If this called for millions upon millions of dollars, why not discuss it in the committee so we will all understand it. ~m. SMALLWOOD: It is discussed where it should be discussed MR. CROSBIE: It should be discussed in public ••• MR. SMALLWOOD: In Ottawa. MR~ CROSBIE: where public funds are required and discussed in Ottawa too.

There is no wonder there is trouble on the Blackhead Road and trouble here, there everywhere, when the members of this House cannot get any information at all on it - on a public scheme that there are $6 million, $7, million or $8 million being spent on , as to what is going to happen up there with housing and the rest. MR. WELLS: They are asking for $2,250,000. MR. CROSBIE: Exactly. Now we are asking about the housing position. Well if the problem is that this would cost millions, why cannot the ~ommittee be told?

If the residents requests were met if so many houaes would be needed and they would cost so much and it comes to $2 million and it is just not sensible or.reasonable for the Government to do it, we have not got the funds for it, if that kind of explanation came up, that· would be satisfactory. But when no information comes up and the word goes down and the minister does not answer anything on the Blackhead Road,that is not satisfactory. It is not satisfactory to the people there. Now it is lp.m. Mr. Chairman. On motion that the committee rise. report progress. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair.

On motion report received and adopted. On motion committee ordered to sit again presently. MR.. S~EAKER: I now call it 1 p.m. and I do leave the Chair until 3 pm.

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 107 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 10. 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

June 'lOth, 1970 The House resumed at 3:00 P.M. Hr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape 1204 JH - 1 .. .. ··-- '" ; MR. SPEAKER: Item (11) is a resolution on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. member for St. John's West. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, this motion, I did not hear anybody say carried. If everybody would vote to carry the motion we could stop the debate now, Hr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this motion has been on the Order Paper for some time and just to refresh the memories of everyone. We are going to get it off today.

This is about Melville Pulp and Paper Limited and the recital is referred to the Act that was passed, Act No, 72 of 1966-67 which was amended in 1968 au~horizing the Government to enter into agreements with Melville Pulp and Paper Limited and other companies for the purpose of establishing a pulp and paper mill in the Province; And that in November, 1969 the Government entered into certain agreements and gave certain guarantees totalling $66,102,000.00; And it states

whereas the Government has not presented to the House complete facts and information with respect to the project and any changes in connection therewith since the passage of Act No. 72 of the Statutes of Newfoundland, 1968. This is the hub of the matter, Mr. Speaker, that the Government has not given the House complete facts and information with respect to this project since 1968 really since 1967. And

whereas there have been considerable changes with respect to the said project since that time and we all know that there have, there has 'been change after change. When the original Act was passed through this House in 1967 the whole project was going to be financed in France, it was going to be carried out by French Companies, by the Ensa Company and Schneider Creusot Bank was going to finance it. All the documents, Mr. Speaker, presented to this Rouse in connection with this project in 1967 have since gone by the Boards and in 1967 there was a great attempt made to give the House information on this project.

There were construction contracts tabled, there were equip­ ment contracts tabled, agreements with reference to shares were tabled, agree­ ment after agreement, a pile of them about that high, there were red covers •

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1204 JM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: and yellow covers. All these agreements were tabled in the House, feasibility study was tabled and this is all back in 1967. Since then, Mr. Speaker, the project has changed.in many respects but there has not been a complete and full explanation of this project given to this House or the people of Newfo.undland since 1967 or at the latest 1968 when an amendment was passed two years ago. There have'been tremendous changes since. And

whereas it is desirable that Members of this House and the public be fully informed of the position with reference to Melville Pulp and Paper Limited. I cannot see how any member could argue against that, that it is desirable for the public and the House to be fully informed of the project. Then the resolution says, "Be it resolved that Mr.

Speaker do appoint a Select Committee of the House to inquire into and report back to the House with respect to the status of the said Melville Project and progress to date including, though not to affect the generality of the foregoing, to report on the amount of money guaranteed by the Government, feasibility studies done in connection with the project, the effect of changes in the method of transporting wood from Labrador to Stephenville for the use of the Pulp Mill at Stephenville, on arrangements made for marketing of the production of the Mill and on the security taken by the Government in connection with Government guarantees, such Select Committee to have all necessary powers to carry out its duties properly and to have permission to sit during the sitting hours of this House and to report back to this House during the present Session.

Now if the resolution by some miracle, Mr. Speaker, did happen to be passed and·the Government did agree it would have to be amended now because a Select Committee would not have time to go into all these matters and to report back to the House during the present sitting because presumably the present sitting will end next week, by the end of next week,all going well. AN BON. MEMBER: Is that a promise? 'MR. CROSBIE: It is certainly a promise on this side and I only wish it would end retroactively but while there is business to be done the business has to be done.

I want now to discuss some of the information that needs to be given. Mr. Speaker, this is supposed to be a $120. million project. Now G8·1G

June lOth, 1970 Tape 1204 JH- 3 MR. CROSBIE: we have not heard any figures at all in the last year or two as to just what the full cost of this project is now going to b~. $120. million used to be the figure used. Anyone who looks at the agreements that have been tabled in this·House and they are very skimpy, the Government is in violation of the Act by the way, I will come to that in a minute, in my view, the Act that was passed by the House. Yes, the agreement that has· ·.been filed in this House, that was filed here, Mr.

Speaker, several weeks after the House started when I brought it to the attention of the House that the agreement was not being complied with. that agreement shows that in effect the people of Newfoundland are guarantying the whole of this project. Now let us not fool ourselves, it is not a guarantee of $53. million, it is not a guarantee of $58. million, it is not a guarantee of $66. million, it is