Manitoba Hansard — 17 June 1986 (Sitting 30A, 33rd Legislature, 1st Session)

33-1-30a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 19 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Pet itions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. D. SCOTT : Madam Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W. Remnant: Your committee met on Tuesday, June 17, 1986 , at 10:00 a.m . in Room 255 of the Legislative Building . Your Committee appointed Mr.

Maloway as Chairman and agreed that at future meet ings of the committee a quorum would consis t of six members . Your committee considered the Annual Reports of Communities Economic Development Fund , Moose Lake Loggers and Channel Area Loggers . Mrs. Bernice O'Connor , Chairperson of the Board , Mr. Hugh Jones, General Manager , and Mr. Alex Musgrove , Assistant General Manager provided such information as was requested by members of the Comm ittee with respect to the business of the Sommunities Economic Development Fund . Information with respect to the business of Moose Lake Loggers was provided by Mr.

Clement Jones , President , Mr. R.J . Kivisto , General Manager and Mr. G.P. Trithart , Secretary-Treasurer . M r. Lester Everett, President , Mr. G.P. Trithart, Secretary- Treasurer and Mr. George Kemp , Manager provided all information requested by members of the committee with respect to the business of Channel Area Loggers. The fullest opportunity was accorded to all members of the committee to seek any information desired. The Annual Reports of Communit ies Economic Develpment Fund , Moose Lake Loggers and Channel Area Loggers for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1985, were adopted as presented .

MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Memb er for Inkste r. MR. D. SCOTT: I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that the Report of the Committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services . HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker , I'd lik e to table a report, The Child Care Challenge for Canadians. It's a brief submitte d to the Special Committee on Child Care by the Government of Manitoba . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker , I beg leave to file the 15th Annual Report of the Manitoba Law Reform Commission for 1985-86. MADAM SPEAKER: Notice s of Motio n . Introduction of Bills .. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we proceed to Ora l Questions , may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery , where we have 50 students from Grade 9 from Crescentview School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Harrison . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. We have 19 students from Grade 9 from the St. Claude School.

These students are under the direction of Mr. Don Chapman. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Morris . We have 55 students from Grade 5 from the Ecole Centrale School. The students are under the direction of Celine Vuloif. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Transcona . On behalf of all the members , I would like to welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Madam Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege .

Yesterday I witnessed an event , which I b elieve has affected my rights as a member of this Hou se and the rights of all members. After my submission to you , Madam Speaker , I will move a sub stantive motion . Yesterday, prior to you making your ruling , I witnessed the Honourable Member for Thompson receiving an interdepartmental envelope from a page . The honourable member opened th e envelope , read the contents , and then went to see th e Government House Leader .

He return ed to his se at with a c opy of Beauchesne 's Fifth Edition . 1046 The Government House Leade r then went to see the Honourable Member for Thompson and returned to his seat with a copy of the content s of the envelope , which he handed to the Premier . C

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 The Premier, in turn, went to see the Honourable Member for Thompson, after he had read the document. Madam Speaker, I believe the contents of the envelope were copies of the ruling which you handed down later in the sitting. I have this morning been able to confirm my suspicions that indeed the government had prior knowledge of what Your Honour's Ruling would be before you read it to the honourable members . At no time did the Honourable Member for Thompson rise to indicate he had received information, which would give him an advantage which no other member had regarding your ruling.

My rights, as a member of this House , have been breached as a result and I therefore move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West , that the Member for Thompson be requested to apologize for not informing the House that he received the Speaker's Ruling prior to all other members. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: I will take that matter under advisement and report back to the House as to whether the honourable member has a Matter of Privilege. ORAL QUESTIONS Canadian Tests of Basic Skills MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Education . It has been reported that the results for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 are out regarding the results of the Canadian Tests of Basic Skills , and these are the results relating to the elementary , junior and high schools . My question to the Minister is: he has information in the department relating to the results of all the divisions in the Prov ince of Manitoba . Will be table those results in this House? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I believe the member knows some of the background that went into the current system of assessment in the Province of Manitoba, and there were a number of undertakings as a result of the implementation of that assessment regime. One of the concerns that was expressed by the teachers and I believe the Manitoba Association of School Trustees was the confidentiality , the distri but ion, the question of comparison that can be made on the base of individual tests of basic skills or other individualized testing.

I think the member is aware that in reference to the issue he has raised this morning that amongst the schoo l board members themselves there is a significant difference of opinion about the efficacy of the tests, the manner in which they are used, and the implications which one draws from that testings. I'm not sure that at this point that I would be willing to table the results unless there is concurrence from the school divisions, who have and maintain significant authority in terms of responsibility of education within divisions , so I'm very reluctant to accept that as a suggestion at this point.

I'm not adverse, however , to raising it with the groups who might be affected . MR. C. BIRT: Madam Speaker, given the right that it's the parents' right and the students' right to have this information for their own assessment, their own concern about the quality of education, will the Minister either direct the school divisions to either voluntarily , or will he pass legislation compelling the school divisions to release this information to all parents and students in each school district? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , the member speaks in tongues . He want s me to direct them to voluntarily do something.

Madam Speaker, I have no intention of directing school boards to provid e that kind of information . I will acknowledge that as a former teacher and one who believes in the involvement of parents that I encourag e school divisions, teachers, individual administrations, to be open with parents about the achievement of their individual student s. I believe that in most cases Manitoba schools and teachers are very open and very forthright about the testing that occurs , the results of that testing. - (Interjection) - Madam Speaker, the Member for Lakeside shows his true ignorance about the education system.

There is testing that goes on almost on a daily basis in the classroom which has an effect on the achievement and the achie vement leve ls of students, has an impact on their success or failure in the schoo l system . I ind icate to the member that the kind of testing that the Member for Fort Garry was referring to is only one kind of testing, and there are legitimate questions about its legitimacy as a means of determining achievement in terms of education al standards. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry with a supplementary. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Spea ker.

If the parents ask for the results and if the school division will not provid e the results of the testing of the individual student and the resu lts of the school division, will then the Minister pass legislation compelling the schoo l divisions to release this information to the parents? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is hypothe tica l. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Will the Minister then pass legislation making it mandatory for the test results of the Canadian Test of Basic Skills to be released to all parents and students if requested by either group? HON. J.

STORIE: Mad am Speaker, I can certainly tell the member that that has not been contemplated at this time. I have indi cated that before I, as Minister, or this government would consider that we would certa inly want to be in discussion with the major groups involved . 1047

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 recognize parents' rights to be informed. I have indicated that it's my understanding that most school divisions and most schools provide that kind of individual information at occurrences such as parent teacher meetings and other occasions when individual parents request the information.

I believe that that is a good education al practice; however, I remind the member that the authority of school divisions is something that has been respected by many administrations, and for him to stand up and ask me to direct on this kind of issue I th ink underlies a pretty basic fundamental philosophical difference between that side and th is side . MR. C. BIRT: Will the Minister, as he has refused to reveal the other information, at least file the information in this House as the Province of Manitoba relates to the other provinces in Canada , who are also involved in this testing process? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker , I think it should be known that the Canadian Test of Basic Skills is a national test. It is based on norms that come about as a result of testin g across Canada at ind ividual grade levels. Therefore, the results that come about as a result of testings of the basic skills level of students in Manitoba is reflected. We're talking about national norms, so that is already the case, Madam Speaker . I point out once again that all school divisions , as an example, do not use the Canadian Test of Basic Skills .

Some of them use another test, which was modelled on the Stanford Achievement Test or the California Achievement Test. Madam Speaker , I point out as well that there is legitimate concern amongst school divisions about the release of -that kind of informati on because of the comparison that it leads to, and sometime erroneous conclusions that may be drawn from it. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry with a final supplementary . MR. C. BIRT: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Does the Minister or the department have the results of how Manitoba compa res to the rest of the provinces in Canada, and will he relea se the average results , not dealing with specific individuals, as how th is province compares, grade by grade, to the other provinces in Canada? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, for the umpteenth time I have indicated that if that matter is something that seems to be desirable on behalf of the other groups, and particularly the Manitoba Association of School Trustees, then that's something that might be considered.

However, Madam Speaker, I would acknowledge one point that the member makes , and I believe that in terms of good educational practice and in terms of the interests of improving the system , that there is some utility in reviewing on a division-by-division basis, an inter-divisional basis, that kind of information. My understanding as well if that occurs , superintendents and administration in divisions do make those kinds of comparisons. University of Manitoba basic skills - students MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you , Madam Speak er.

My question is to the Minister of Education as well. In view of the fact that the University of Manitoba has information which in fact indi cates how students from various divisions across the province compare in terms of their basic skill areas, would the Minister make this information available to the public and the people of Manitoba ? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I am not aware of the informati on that the member refers to , in terms of the university 's assessment. I will take that question as notice and perhaps ascerta in from the universities exactly what kind of information they do collect.

I would point out to the member , as well, that the issues - I'm not try ing to belittle the issue - which I hope is behind their questioning, and that is, determining the quality of education and where we go from here with respect to particularly the high school program . I believe we must address those questions in that review as wel l. MADAM SPEAKER: I'll remind the Honourable Minister to keep his answers as brief as possible. Education - quality of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russe ll. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you , Madam Speake r.

Will the Min ister of Edu cation ackn owledge the fact that there is an urgent need to address the quality of education in Manitoba schools, since the universities in Manitoba find it necessary to offer remedial courses in basic skill areas to bring students up to an acceptable level for univers ity education? MADAM SPEAKER: It is the honourable member's duty to ascertain the truth of any statement that he brings before the House . The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L.

DERKACH: Madam Spea ker, my question then to the Minister is: will the Ministe r take steps to ensure that there is an address to the urgent need for improving the quality of education in Manitoba school s, since, in fact , the universities in Manitoba find it necessary to offer remedial courses to students to bring them up to an acceptable leve l for univers ity education? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker , I hope the member appreciates that the University of Manitoba is not alone in that it provides remedial skill development in certain areas for a small numb er of students.

I point out to the members that what we're faced with as well , and what universities have acknowledged, is the fact that the number of students who are moving from our high schools int o the universities has increased pretty dramatically . We are no longer talking about the top 10 percent or the elite in our high school system moving through the universities . In fact we have much more 1048

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 the opportunities that lie in terms ui fir,ancial assistance and other resource assistance on campuses, to take advantage of university education . I don't think that's bad. Obviously the high school review will be addressing some of the questions that the member opposite raised . MR. L.

DERKACH: Madam Speaker, once again, will the Minister of Education take immediate action to address the area of quality of education in Manitoba schools, since the problems have been identified by the people within the community at large for more than a year, in spite of the fact that the former Educa tion Minister refused to recognize that there was a problem in the quality of education in Manitoba schools? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . A question should not multiply, with slight variations , a similar question on the same point.

Manitoba Hydro - gag orders on officials MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside . MR. H. ENNS: Thank you , Madam Spea ker. Madam Speaker, I direct a question to the Honourable First Minister . I would ask him directly, Madam Speaker, whether he's now had an opportunity to personally read and review the memo that was sent by the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro to all senior Hydro officials, ordering them not to commu nicate with the Winnipeg Free Press? Has the First Minister had a chance to review that memo? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines . HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. I haven't asked for the memo , but I've read it in the Free Press. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I would be very pleased to table this memorandum for the First Min ister. I would ask the First Minister to seriously consid er whether or not that kind of memorandum ordering senior Hydro staff, vice-presidents, in particular the Direc tor of Pub lic Relations, Mr. Vern Prior - many of us remembe r his predecessor , Mr.

Earl Mills , who was a prolific communicator with the media - so my question to the First Minister is whether or not he will not consider immediately asking the chairman of Manitoba Hydro to withdraw that offensive and Orwellian order? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker , I have had a discussion with the chairman of Manitoba Hydro and I think that things will proceed in a way that will probably be satisfactory to all the parties concerne d. As indicated yesterday, there wasn't a gag order. It was very clear; it was made clear to me that any reporters ' ques tions from any source would be answered.

That, of course, will continue to be the case , and people who are asked questions in the future will be providing answers; and again, there are always some parameters in terms of complexity and that sort of thing. Versatile Farm Equipment Company MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the First Minister.

Given that Versatile Manufacturing, where there are 1,200 jobs at stake, had made a sale to John Deere of the United States, my understanding is that on June 30 , if it does not clear both Canadian and U.S. authorities, that deal becomes invalid, probably costing 1,200 jobs. The First Minister has sent a telegram to the Prime Minister, I believe it was last week or early this week. I'm wondering if he has yet receiv ed a response. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I thank the Honourable Member for Kildonan for that very important question.

Madam Speaker, the acquisition of Versatile by John Deere did take place a number of months ago. Unfortunately, the acquisition has not been finalized due to action involvin g the U.S. Department of Justice. The delay continues and each passing day jeopardizes the potential sale of Versatile to John Deer e. In respect to the telex to the Prime Minister , I have received no response as of yet. As a consequence of that, I have put in a telephone call to the Prime Minister or, alternatively, to the Extern al Min ister Joe Clark in the event the Prime Minister is not present to immediately take action.

This is a matter of grav e concern to the Province of Manitoba, to the potential future of employment and investment growth in Manitoba; and again, I repeat the urgency and the importance of the Prime Minister and the Federal Government doing all withi n their power in order to deal with what is a crit ical situa tion pertaining to the continued delay. MR. M. DOLIN: A supplementary, Madam Speaker. It's my und erstanding that Versat ile lost $17 million in the first quarter of this year and $16 million last year and will probably go out of business ii this deal does not go through .

Will the First Minister follow up not only with the Prime Minister but perhaps the Minister of External Affa irs and the Minister of Trade and Industry to ensure the best possible way that this deal could go thro ugh in the best interests of Canadians? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I certainly will and any other suggestions that any member of this House could provide in the event - and I trust thi s will not be the case - but in the event of the non-approval of the sale. Under these circumstances, it would be an equivalent situat ion to the softwood lumber thre at insofar as British Columbia is concerned.

It would have the same potential effect, to a large deg ree, upon the Province of Man itoba potentially, if this sale is not allowed , by way of the actions presently before the U.S. Department of Justice . MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. 1049

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I have a question to the Premi er. Could he confirm or inform this House, Madam Spea ker, that in fact earlier this week, of ficials representing the Federal Government, the Department of External Affairs, met with officials of the Department of Justice with respect to the Versatile matter; that Mr. Gotl eib, at the request of the gove rnment, was instructed to meet with the head of the Department of Justice this past Monday? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Sp eaker , our Minister responsible for Industry, Trade and Technology did meet with Ambassador Gotleib on Friday last, in respect to this matter, and made presentations to the Ambassador in connection with the very grave concern on the part of the Province of Manitoba insofar as this delay is concerned.

I'm looking forward to response and confirmation from the Prime Minister as to all that has been done on the part of the Federal Government, and what the Federal Government can do within the next few days, which are very, very critical to the success of the application, in order to permit the sale to proceed . it's indeed ironic, Madam Speaker , with the abolition of FIRA that we should in fact have, on the other side, the blocking of this particular sale. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speak er, in view of the fact that this government in the past has found occasions to have delegations and representation in Washington with respect to Garrison, the Premier has in fact travelled to the Northern United States with respect to hog imports; can the First Minister explain to this House why they have taken no dir ect action for representation with the Department of Jus tice in Washington with respect to this matter, since it has been outstanding for a numb er of months, to their knowledge, and they have had full knowledge of that? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I regret that the Honourable Member for St. Norbert appears to assume facts that are not correct, and I would ask the Minister of Trade and Technology to inform the Honourable Member for St. Norbert as to his endeavours in this respect. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Industr y, Trade and Technology . HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you very much, Madam Speak er. This is an issue of concern I think to all Manitobans. We have been involved from the moment we were notified of the hold back, the problem.

There have been commu nications with the Federal Government and we have been assured by our people in Washington that those comm unications have been expressed to the U.S. Gove rnment. lt is, in a sense, a judicial Department of Justice area in the U.S., somewhat diffe rent from cases in the past where there has been an opportunity for direct public input in the manner referred to by the Member for St. Norbert. Beyond that, as indicated by the Premier , I asked for a meeting with Ambassador Gotleib last Friday and met with him and we discussed it again.

He assured me that the message that our Premier had gotten through to the Prime Minister a week before had gotten back to Wa shington, that he had been working on the case, that he was continuing to work on it, but that it was a very serious issue and there was no assurance that in fact we were going to be successful. Of course that is why we've been working on it since. FIRA MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, now that we know from the Minister that the Federal Government is doing everything possible to obtain the Department of Justice approval for this transaction, the question for the Premi er, in view of his reference to FIRA, in view of the fact that if FIRA had continued that would have blocked the sale of Versatile to John Deere which would have resulted in the loss of 1, 200 jobs in Manitoba. In view of that fact, Madam Speaker, does he still take the same position and is it his position that FIRA should have been maintained, which would have stopped the sale of Versatile to John Deere?

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. That question is out of order on several accounts: (1) it seeks an opinion; (2) it had several hypothetical comments in it. Would the honourable member like to rephrase his question, without a

preamble, if it's a supplementary, please. MR. G. MERCIER: I would hope the Premier, having referred to FIRA, would take the opportunity to answer the question, Madam Speaker. My question to the Prem ier, Madam Speaker, in view of his reference to FIRA, is it still the government's position that FIRA should not have been abolished, an action which would have stopped the sale of Versatile to John Deere . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. That is an area not within the administrative responsibility of the government. FIRA is not a provincial agenc y. The Honourable Member for St.

Norbert with a question. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, the First Minister referred to maintaining FIRA. My question to the Premier ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. G. MERCIER: ... is it still the Premier's position that FIRA should have been abolished, or should it be MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. I ruled that question out of order. MR. G. MERCIER: On what ground, on what ground, Madam Speaker? MADAM SPEAKER: I ruled that question out of order, saying that it is not in the administrative respo nsibility of this government, and I do not expect to have the honourable member argue with me.

Now, does the honourable member have a question? 1050

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Spe aker, with all due respect, I challenge your ruling . MADAM SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? All those in favour say, Aye; all those opposed say, Nay. In my opinion the Ayes have it. Bill No. 4 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture.

Given the statement from the Manitoba Committee of the Canadian Bankers Association, that Bill 4 presently in front of this Legislature would ultimately reduce the supply of funds available to farmers and could increase the cost of funds to all farmers; and given the fact that at least 50 perc en t of the Man itoba farmers rely on cred it to run their annual operations, can the Minister assure Manitoba farmers that credit will remain available to all of them at existing rates? MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Min iste r of Agriculture . HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I can assure my honourable friend that it is his colleagues in Ottawa who contro l the monetary policy in this country and whose policies have placed thousand s of farmers in this country into the near-bankrupt position. That's what I can assure him of and many farmers will tell him that. I can also indicate to my honourable friend that the Province of Saskatchewan has had moratorium legislation for a year and, in fact, during that period of time, the same threats were made in Saskatchewan .

The Canadian Bankers Association have indicated to us that they're prepared to work within our legislation , Madam Speaker . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . Answers should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. We're not concerned about what the Government of Saskatchewan is doing . The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Given that many farmers are concerned, will he meet very quickly with the credit unions and banks of this province to discuss this problem and analyse it and determine whether there 's going to be an impact on the farmers of Manitoba? HON.

B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate to my honourable friend that I have, and will continue to have, ongoing meetings with the banking institution. The banking institution has indicated that they're prepared to work within this legislation, although they have issued, as they have done in other provinces , those kinds of threats. I want to tell my honourable friend that the supply of money has in fact tightened up over the last four or five years in terms of the downturn in the agricultural economy, and that has been a fact of life by all lending institutions, Madam Speaker. 1051 MR . G.

FINDLAY: Given that many farmers are concerned about the eventual prob lems that may evolve becaus e of this Bill 4, will he inform the House when this next meeti ng is being lined up and will he then inform the farmers of Manitoba as to the results of this mee ting that's to come up? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker , the honourable member should remember that the financial institutions indicated to me that only 5 percent of their clients are in financial difficulty. This legislation will not then affect the other 95 percent of their clients.

Madam Speaker, those meetings will be ongoing with the financial institutions, but there should be no concern of the financial institutions about this legislation because it will only affect those members or those clients of theirs who they say are only 5 percent of their total business and the 5 percent are in difficulty. This is the only part of the legislation that they will be subjected to. MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you , Madam Speaker. I direct my question to the First Minister.

I'm told , Madam Speaker, that banks and cre dit unions have lent out today to the farm community of Manitoba, roughly $1.2 billion, an increase and 1 percent on th at value would represent a cost to the farm comm unity of $12 million. My question, Madam Speaker , will this government have fun ds in place to insure that all those additional farmers thrown as a non -via ble situation - when I say all, not only those who are now clients of MACC - because of Bill 4 in its pre sent form will be supported by this government? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I don't think that the Provincial Governm ent has ever pretended that it would have the funds avai lable in order to deal with the exigencies that might occur. I would like to remind the Member for Mor ris of the communique that was commonly agreed to by all fou r Western Premiers, that in order to deal with the negative impact of the lowered wheat price and the continued prospects of continued lowered wheat prices, it was importa nt that the Federal Government come forth with a deficiency payment in the range of some $900 million to the farmers of Western Canada.

That was just not Man itob a speaking, Madam Speaker , it was the Province of Saskatchewan , the Provinc e of Alberta , the Province of British Columbia. Regrettable tha t such a request must be made but in view of the fact that there has been heavy subsidy in Europe and in the United States, our farmers in Western Canada, Madam Speaker , must be treated on at least a basis as compa rable to that in other nations, as well as the banking depositors and the oil companies been treated. MR. C.

MANNESS: Madam Speaker, I would ask through you to the First Minis ter or the Minister of Agriculture whether the y can guarantee that Bill 4, The Family Farm Protection Act will not result in a net cost to the farm community in Manitoba, particularly becaus e

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 of increased interest rates or because of additional cost to government to support those who may no longer receive credit from institutions? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speak er, I think that the best response to that has been the endorsation with very few exceptions by the Keystone Organization of the Province of Manitoba, that despite the concerns expressed by the friends of honourable members across the way, the bank executives have gi ven their endor sation in general to Bill 4 before this Cham ber, Madam Spea ker, and I think the honourable members across the way will have to decide whether they are on the side of the banking institutions or on the side of the farmers of the Province of Manitoba.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris on a point of order. MR. C. MANNESS: A supplementary, Madam Speaker. I'm on the side of my constituents, the farmers. On whose side is the First Minister? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Spea ker, I trust I have a 10 minute response because the honourable member has asked a very general question which calls for a very general response. MADAM SPEAKER: May I remind the Honourable First Minister that answers to questions should be brief. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I thought there was some provision in respect to the general ity of questions, but I welcome the question. Madam Speak er, as I indicated a few moments ago, Manitoba is proud to be a signatory along with other West ern provi nce s in calling upon the Federal Government to provide comparable assistance to the farmers of Western Canada as they have provided to the oil companies and to the large depositors of banks, that the farmers of this country deserve comparable treatment.

I'm proud to say as far as this side of the Cham ber is concerned, Madam Speaker , we are not going to be equ ivocal; we are not going to sit on the fence in respect to this matter. Bill 4, unlike the legislation that was presented in Ottawa in the last few days is clearly legislation in defence of the farmers of Western Canada, particularly the Province of Manitoba as compared to the weak-kneed legislation introduced in Ottawa in the last few days. Canadian Test of Basic Skills MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Sp eaker.

My question is to the Minister of Education. The Canadian Tests of Basic Skills results which were released for Winnipeg No. 1, or discussed, show that the children were lower this year than last year, and further that inner-city schools actually scored better than some of the suburban schools which should diffuse the argument that these tests discrimi nate against disadvantaged children.

My question is the following: will the Minister undertake to request all school divisions in the Province of Manitoba that they admi nster CTBS so that we can establish a norm for the province and thereby develop a future education strategy? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As the Member for River Heights knows, the province does operate a provincial-wide assessment in selected curriculum areas each year and that has been ongoing since, I believe, 19 79.

School divisions have access to the provincial data which gives them a base from which they can judge their own progress in terms of academic standards, so that already exists. lt is based on provincial norms on the assessment that goes on in Manitoba schools, curricu lum-ba sed assessment. lt does, in fact, give divisions a pretty sound basis on which to judge their own progress and directions which they wish to take for improvement. I point out that the member raised a question about MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights with a supplementary? MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, Madam Speaker .

Would the Minister unde rtake to adminis ter throughout the province with the acceptance of the divisions, CTBS, so we can establish a norm on basic skills? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. A question should not repeat in substance a question already answered or to which an answer has been refused. Plant breeders' rights MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. understand that the Federal Government intends to introduce legislation establishing plant breeders' rights.

Could the Minister indicate what this government's position is in respect to this issue? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speak er, there have been an nouncements made by the Federal Minister of Agriculture that they are intending to bring in legislation dealing with plant breeders' rights.

Madam Speaker, all farmers in Western Canada who have opposed the plant patenting rights dealing with chemical companies should be very concerned with this type of legislation which, in fact, could lead to major increased costs to Canadian farmers as well as to Canadian consumers in terms of the quality of food that they will be using. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet with a supplementary? 1052

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 MR. C. BAKER: Could the Minister indicate what he intends to do to make sure that the interests of Manitoba farmers and, in fact, the interests of all Manitobans are protected on this issue or at least representive of them? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate to this House and to all Manitobans that the Manitob a Government and the Department of Agriculture, in particular, has engaged the services of a renowned expert in the field of genetic breedi ng and plant patenting rights.

One Pat Mooney from the Brandon area, who has, in fact, Madam Speaker , received world renown in this whole area, who will , in fact, be consulting with farm groups, with the trade, with consumer groups to receive their input and assist in our work dealing when this legislation comes to fruition, so that all interested parties would be able to be more familiar with what the impact of this legislation may entail. Civil Air Search and Rescue Association MADAM SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The Civil Air Search and Rescue Association has recently been formed into a national body and it appears that Manitoba is the only province that hasn't given its blessing to this volunteer organization . I wonder if the Minister can inform the House when his gove rnment may consider recognizing this voluntee r organization. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, there are a number of provinces, I understand, that have not formally signed an agreemen t. Of course, Air Search and Rescue comes under the federal jurisdiction.

The Province of Manitoba, through Emergency Measures Organization, will work cooperatively and have indicated so to any organization, volunteer civilian organization that may be formed to assist in this area. We would certainly provide the advice and offices that we have available, not financial assistance, of course, and I don't think that's what the member was asking for. This is a fed eral area of jurisdiction. We have indicated that we would cooperate fully with any civilian organization that may be formed in the Province of Manitoba. MR. D. BLAKE: A supplementary to the same Minister.

He is quite correct that the organization, Search and Rescue, is all funded under federally-sponsored programs. It's the official recognition by the Provinc e of Manitoba, by the Government of Manitoba to th e newly-formed volunteer civilian organization that they're looking for. I wonder why the Province of Manitoba has not recognized this volunte er organization. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, I will look into that further but I've indicated that there has not been a Manitoba

chapter of this organization formed. If there is one formed , we will certainly formally recognize it and work cooperatively with it. We have indicated that. Native Affairs - audit MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a couple of questions to the Honourable Minister responsible for Nati ve Affairs. I understand that the Federal Minister of Indian Affairs had refused to meet with the 27 Indian Chiefs to discuss the implicat ions of the recent audit of the Manitoba bra nch of the department.

Will the Honourable Minister contact the Federal Minister of Indian Affairs to ask him to meet with the Indian Chiefs so as to discuss this important Manitoba concern? MADAM SPEAKER : The Hon ourable Minister responsible for Native Affairs . HON. E. HARPER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have sent a telex to the Minister of Indian Affairs yesterday, requesting that he meet with the 27 Chiefs of Manitoba that were there to meet with him yesterday . I understand that he didn 't mee t with them and I will be in touch with them late r to find out what has progressed since then. MR. C.

SANTOS: A supplementary , Madam Speaker . Does the Honourable Minister have any plans to meet in turn with the Indian Chiefs so as to discuss wh at can be done, in order that the recommendations of the audit can be implemented as soon as possible? HON. E. HARPER: Yes, I am planning to meet with the Chiefs at some point to discuss the audit. I believe the audit itself has presented some serious implications on the part of the Federal Department of Indian Affairs, which has to be addressed . I believe it is a concern to the Province of Manitoba , to the Provincial Government of Manitoba as well.

MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: I'd like to direct the attention of honourable members to the Gallery where we have 19 students from Grade 6 from the Treherne Elem entary School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Scott Smart, and the school is loc ated in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. 1053 On beh alf of all the members , I welcome you to the Legislatur e this afternoo n. ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Labour, that Madam

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agri culture, and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chai r for the Department of Community Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The committee will come to order.

We are dealing with the Department of Community Services, Resolution 29, 1.(c), Research and Planning. The Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I not iced that there was a 17 percent incre ase in this particular budget this year. Over a three-year period there has been a 71 percent increase . I wonder if the Minister can explain . It's not that I'm against resear ch, it's not that I'm against planning, but there is a substant ial increase in the amount of money which is spent in this

part icular area over the last three years and 17 percent certainly is higher than what the rest of the different areas are getting within this departmen t. So I wonde r if the Minister can explain why this

part icula r area is getting more money and what are they doing with this money? HON. M. SMITH: I think that question was asked and answered yesterday. The increase in the Research and Planning has been because we are taking a more active role in coordinating and monitoring our planning. We've also taken a much more active role in cost-sharing arrangements with the Federal Government under the Canada Assistance Plan. We're renegotiating the Vocation of Rehabil itat ion of Disabled Per sons Act and the Young Offenders Cost Sharing Agreement.

We've also been much more active in Native policy and, as I said yesterday , hired a coordinator for the Decade of the Disabl ed. In an era of scarce resources, the planning function becomes even more important and that 's the basic rat ionale for the increase in activity in this area . MR. A. BROWN: Would this planning, then, be des igned in such a manner to give us more efficiency , or are we going to see more expenditures as a result of the planning that you 're doing? HON. M.

SMITH: In an area like Community Services there are some services that are relatively mature and others that are in a developmental phase. The ones that are in a developmental stage , like day care, will lead to more expenditure to meet the need. In the other areas what we 're endeavouring to do is to identify if there is any duplication or gaps. Naturally, if we find duplication, we eliminate it; if we find gaps , we will slowly build up to fill those gaps.

So, in a sense, what we're attempting to do is to minimize the growth in expenditure and ensure that where dollars are spent they are in fact being spent in the most coordina ted and cost-effective way. MR. A. BROWN: In the area of Other Expenditures - I don 't believe that the question was asked - there was a sub stantial increase. Wha t are thes e Other Expenditures for? HON. M. SMITH: Basically , the increase that's related to the operating costs of the new coordinator for the Decade of the Disabled. MR. A. BROWN: I see, under Recove rable from Canada, there are $265,000. 00.

Now that's not nearly 50 percent of what is being spent in this area. Why do we only get $265,000.00? What are the extra programs which the Feder al Government is not funding? HON. M. SMITH: Canada Assistance Plan covers some of the activities of the department, but not all, such as the area of Corrections. So some of the planning money is cost-shareable and othe r is not. MR. A. BROWN: Would this be pretty well then the extra money tha t we are paying ourselves? Would that be specifically going then towards Corrections? HON. M. SMITH: Only the salaries are cost-shared and only for certain portions of programs .

For example, as I referred to, Corrections is not cost-shareabl e. There are elements of the Day Care Planning that are not cost-sha red , and some of Child and Family. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: No, my question was just answered . Thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(cX1)-pass; 1.(cX2)-pass. 1.(

d) Communications - the Membe r for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that we are especially concerned about this particular area of the department . I notice that there is a 7 percent decrease in Communications this year, but over a three-year period there is a 335 percent increase . Now when you think of it, this Communications really is a part of the Minister's department which is really there only to make the department look good, carry forward a little bit of informa tion as to some of the programs that they are getting involved with , but really , Mr.

Chairman , I believe tha t it is absolutely and completely unacceptable that we spend this type of money on Communications when that money ought to be going to assist children in wha tever areas they have difficulty in, whether it is abuse or whether it is battered wives abuse , both of thes e areas. We are desperately short of money. 1054 Why would we want to be spending this type of money on Communications when other areas certainly should have priority over this particular item?

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: Well, I just completely disagree with the premise of the member. The communication function in a department like Commun ity Services is a vital support program for public education for staff training. We have available some folders here that have some of the pamphlets that are in use on the abuse-family violence area, the community option area. We use the monies here for recruiting foster parents, for recru itimg volunteers to support the varied programs that we have in place.

As you kn ow, the thru st of the go vernment in Community Services is to work very extensively with communi ty groups and also to promote community education to a more preventative stance. Without some expenditure of monies in this Commun ication Branch, we would not be able to carry out that type of activity. My Deputy Minister is distributing among you samples of the types of educative trainin g-recruiting materials that we have developed. MR. A. BROWN: Is this all the monies that are budgeted for Communic ations or could the Minister identify where money also is accounted for? HON. M.

SMITH: There are some specific budge ted items in other areas. As we move along we can identify them. If the member wanted a summa ry, it would take me some time to get that pulled together. MR. A. BROWN: I would appreciate, Mr. Chairman, as we move along, if the Minister would give us the figures for Communi cations as we go from item to item. Again, Other Expenditures, there was a huge increase in Other Expenditur es from $5,000 to $60,000.00. Can the Minister - no, pardon me, I'm on the wrong page. HON. M. SMITH: You're on the wrong page. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item l(b)(2), Page 31. MR. A.

BROWN: There is a decrease over there. Okay. Can the Minister identify the Other Expenditures? HON. M. SMITH: Telephone $1,000, Postage $2,000, Messenger/Courier $1,000, Subs criptions $500, Stationery $1,500, Printing $3,000, Emplo yee Training $2,000, Travel $2,000, Hotels $500, Meals $500, Annual Maintenance for Wo rd Processing Equipment $1,000, Programs $81,500, Direct Mail $45,500, Miscellaneous Advertising $3,500, Orientation "A" - Audio -Visual 15,000. MR. A. BROWN: I notice that there are a number of hotel bills and meals and so forth.

Has this particular de partment travelled quite extensively throughout the province, or what would those hotel costs be about? HON. M. SMITH: There are six regions in the province beyond the Winnipeg area and we are involv ed in training and outr each in those areas. The total expenditure is quite modest, I would think. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell me how many staff years are involved in the salaries? HON. M. SMITH: Five - unchanged from the year before. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can she also tell me why therefore there is no incr ease in salary at all? HON. M.

SMITH: There was an adjustment in the last year's vote. Last year's was at 118.8 and it was adjusted to 147,200 because of a transfer of one staff from Child and Family Support. So it's the person with the higher skill level. But year over year there is . . . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So you went from 118 estimated last year to 147 and then we're staying at 147 this year? HON. M. SMITH: Some people were budgeted at the upper level of the range, but started at the lower level - sort of internal variations. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister explain the decrease in the $20,000.00?

In which of the program areas has this fallen? HON. M. SMITH: We're just slowing down somewhat in the rate of development of audi o-visual presentations. lt's just a general tightening in the preparation of materials. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I assume the Minister is not saying that there is less of a need to communicate this year than there was last year in an election year. HON. M. SMITH: The department was involved in very early stages of new thrusts last year that required a fair bit of orientation material and outreach material, particularly the development of the new Child and Family Service Act. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Yes, I am suspiCIOUS of the honourable member. My concern is, in fact, that I would think with the programs like Welcome Home, which are getting a very large additional thrust from this agency this year, that there would be a continued need for that kind of money in the development of good communications. HON. M. SMITH: Well, there are some areas that are up and some that are down, but the need at this level, I would think, that the major shift has been the fact that the new Child and Family Service Act is out and the basic training and communication of that has been completed. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Ju st a point of ord er, Mr. Chairman. Did we not ban smoking from committees? 1055 A MEMBER: I thought we did. MR. CHAIRMAN: I hadn't seen anybody smoking, but if ... MRS. G. HAMMOND: No, I'm just asking.

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, smoking is against the policy. But if I do not observe anyone smoking then the policy is being adhered to. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, I have to protest because I'm an asthmatic and if the fans are going and the smoke gets in my way, I'm going to be huffing on an inhaler very shortly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, then people are reminded of the policy that there is no smoking at the commi ttee. The Member for Kirkfield Park. A MEMBER: I put my cig arette out because if anyone requests it I believe I should comply if it bothers them.

I am quite willing to do that any time a request is made. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, my question is about the recruitment of foster parents. To the Minister, is this the area that the recruitment is actually taking place, or do the social workers also do it out in the field? HON. M. SMITH: The recruitment is done in the field. There is an element in the Child and Family Services that covers the particular expenditures for that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that the Minister mentioned that this was part of the salaries, was recruitment foster parents, and I'm just wondering what they do then here.

HON. M. SMITH: I was giving sort of a broad-brush picture of what was going on. I did say, though, that there were specific budget items that will appear in each area. I have in front of me the Commun ication's budget for Child and Family Services iri which foster family recruiting money appears. So I would withdraw that general thrust that I referred to before. I had it placed in the wrong area. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is the Minister saying then that the 147,200 doesn't cover any component of the recruiting of foster parents? HON. M. SMITH: I perhaps have giv en a wrong impression here.

There is not a complete division of the Commu nication function. In the central group there is a direct or , two media specialis ts and two admin istrative support. They work in cooperation with the people in the branches. They, in a sense, are the expertise, but the actual printing and production costs will show up in the department. These will be the resource advisers, I guess you would say, the media specialists. MRS. G. HAMMOND: This then is advertising for foster parents. Is that what it is, or that's what it will be when we come to the area? HON. M.

SMITH: The elements in the foster parent recruitment , I'll refer to when we get there. There are things like audio-visual, pamphlets and local recr uiting. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)(1)-pass; 1. (d)(2)-pass. 1.(

e) Financial Services - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister could give us a bit more of a rundown than what we are receiving in our Estimate Book as to what the particular function of this group is, Financial Services. HON. M. SMITH: There are the same number of staff years from an adjusted vote. In fact, during the year, there was a transfer of one staff from Adult Correct ions.

The current staff total then is 19, Recoverable from Canada, $225,000, again for some of the same reasons I mentioned earli er, that some of the elements are cost shareable and others aren't. The function of this group is to provide departmental administration and direction on fiscal management and control, including the internal audit function. lt also provides central accounting, budget, revenue and financial services, and prepares claims under the federal cost-sharing agreement. MR. A. BROWN: I notice over here that we have financial services and budget planning in (e). We had this in 1.(c).

I'm also informed that there is a certain amount or quite a bit of dupli cation between these two areas. Why? Why do we have to have financial services and budget planning in two different areas? HON. M. SMITH: I think the answer is that they are complemen tary. The planning looks at the need, the various options for service delivery, looks at the costs of those and, in a sense, designs the program to meet the need. They would do it in consultation with the budg etary people. The bud getary people then will prepare all the financial statements, submissions to Treasury and so on.

They'll process vouchers, accounts payab le, maintain clients' trust accounts. They'll do revenue acc ounting, accounts receivable. One is the policy side and the other is the budgetary side, but they do cooperate and complement one another. MR. A. BRO WN: I wonder if the Min ister would undertake to take a look into the particular concern that I have raised on this particular item.

From what I understand, these fell ows are the good guys and, in 1.(c), they're the bad guys, because they are supposed to be doing some of this work, but really it is done by this group and there is a certain amount of duplication from what I understand. I would appreciate it if the Minister would take a look at that particular area and see if this indeed is the case and if it is, then take the necessary corrective measures. HON. M. SMITH: I would submit that (

c) and (

e) are like a good marriage. lt takes the two to make the good marriage, but the partners may not always fully understand one anot her. However, I am always looking for efficiencies and if the member wishes to submit specific examples of waste or duplication, I would be more than happy to look into it. MR. A. BROWN: Other Expenditures, could we have a breakdown of that figure? HON. M. SMITH: Major items include computer charges for voucher acc ounting, printing and station ery , 1056

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 telephone, office equipment, and other , total ling 124,800.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have 19 staff years and we had 19 staff years the year before. We have, however, a 9.4 percent increase in wages, and I accept the Minister's earlier statement that, in fact, only 3 percent is going into wages. Does the department find itself consistently having to hire people at higher wages than they were previously paying? HON. M. SMITH: lt would depend on the particular skill required .

I think it's fair to say that positions in admin. and finance, at the senior level, do tend to require somewhat more experience and sophisticated skills than some of the direct delivery. There's no simple rule of thumb. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell me how many people within this department are specifically working on claims for federal cost-sharing, for which $225,000 is recoverable? HON. M. SMITH: There's three staff assigned to the bud getary and cost-sharing functions. They do work as a team. One part of the year, they might all be focusing on the cost- sharing, and at another, on the budg etary.

MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1 )- pass; 1.(e)(2)-pass. 1.(f) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. Could we have the SY's and could the Minister give us a little more information on this one? HON. M. SMITH: There are 21 SY's. There was an adjustment during the year, a trans fer of one staff from residential care li ce nsing. This gr oup provide management and information systems development, data process ing, administration of office space, office equipment, and departmental fleet vehicles. MR. A.

BROWN: I would ju st like to point out to the Minister that there is a small increase shown this year, an inc rease of 2 percent, but over a period of over three years, again, there is an increase of 45 percent. There is a substantial, if you take it over a period of three years, and as you're going to see throughout the entire department, there is a substantial inc rease all the way through. This, of course, must be of concern to all of us because, really , we're talking ab out administrative services. Can the Minister tell me how many cars we have in the departmental fleet at the present time? HON. M.

SMITH: One hundred eighty-eight. MR. A. BROWN: One eighty-eight. HON. M. SMITH: They are fleets - I mean, they're vehicles - some of them may be buses or vans, small vans, depending on the function. For example, in Correc tions, you migh t req uire a sm all van for transporting people. MR. A. BROWN: In your last year's answer, I believe that you said 260 units. Have you been disposing of a number of units? HON. M.

SMITH: In cooperation with Treasury Board, we've been setting criteria right across the government for when it's most efficient to have a government car and when it's most efficient to have some other travel arrangement. MR. A. BROWN: Again, Other Expenditures, could be have a breakdown. HON. M. SMITH: Again, this is a total of $44,500.00.

Travel, $7,000 by vehicle; by air, $2,500; by goods or freight, $400; telephone, $10,000; couri er, $200; office supplies, $5,000; repairs and maintenance, $500; rental, $2,500; furniture, $500; equipment, $900; hotel, $2,000; meals, $2,000; computer -related charges, $7,000; publi cations and subscriptions, $1,000; educational assistance, $2,000; other, $1,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister tell us how much of administrative services is now actually spent on data proce ssing? HON. M.

SMITH: As with the communications, these charges show up in the individual programs areas. They are charged out to the areas. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Does that mean that in this 723,900, there is no actual data process ing? HON. M. SMITH: That is the salary grouping. There are automa ted projects at various stages of deve lopment, which do involve the people in this department. There's one in Young Offenders, Child and Family Support, Adult Corrections, and Child Day Care. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Since it's mentioned here under Administrative Services, rather than in other places, is the department making more of its data processing internal as opposed to using the Mani toba Data Services? HON. M. SMITH: There's a process that exists through the Treasury Board whereby any departmental data processing projects mu st be vetted through our information management system to see that we have a compatible and most efficient system, so any new development that we have must go through that process. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I think all of us have come to the conclusion that our little computers are becoming far more capable than they ever were before. Has the department made a deliberate decision to internalize much of its data? 1057

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 HON. M. SMITH: I think rather than internalize, the main developments have been in developing data systems that will enable us to manage on a better system with more accurate and speedier information . I could give you the general outline of the four thrusts, if you would like . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Please. HON. M. SMITH: In the Young Offenders area , there 's a project involving the development of a registry of all juveniles charged under The Young Offenders Act to ensure appropriate placements and monitor progress.

It's under th e direction of the Attorney - General's Department in conjunction with Community Service s. The project is presently prototyping with private consul tants . Under Child and Family Support , this project involves the computer automation of the Child and Family Services program in all service offices . This is a tracking system to monitor all children in care . Due to program requirements, this system is to be decentralized and is pre sently being prototyped , utiliz ing departmental staff with consultant input .

In Adult Co r rections, the project involves the computer deve lopment of correctional programs to monitor residents in the seven institutions . The requirement phase of the project has been completed and prototyping is ready to commence . In Child Day Care, the project involves the computer automation of the subsidy payment system for day care providers . The requirement statements have been completed and project approval is now being pursued . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(f)(1)-pass; 1.(f)(2)- pass . Page 32, 1.(g), Personnel - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

We have a very slight increase in salaries in Personnel , but agai n, taki ng this over a period of three years , there is a 70 percent increase . How many SY's do we have in this particular area at the present time? How many did we have three years ago , I would like to know. How many did we have in here in 1984? Why do we, in this particular area, need such a tremendous increase of expenditures? HON. M.

SMITH: As we have been developing stronger programs in human resource management systems that involve recruitment , selection , evaluation, classification of pos itions and, particularly, as we move into more development and training of staff so that they can most effectively carry out their duties , we have found it useful, indeed necessary, along with the developments that have been occurr ing in the business world, to have a human resource service that concentrates on those issues rather than just leaving it to ad hoc arrangements . • There's also the payroll staff that did show up in a different

section in 1984-85. So some of the increase has come about - well , virtually all of it has come about as the transfer of that function to this . MR. A. BROWN: Could I have a comparison of the SY's from now until 1984? HON. M. SMITH : Again , we don 't have the comparisons quickly availabl e over the two-year time frame . The basic answer is that the personnel functions and the payroll funct ions have been combined since 1984 and that is the basic shift . MR. A. BROWN: I beg your pardon? I couldn ' t understand the Minister. You said there was .. . HON. M. SMITH: There are 15 staff in this area.

There's not much chang e year-over-year , 1986-87 over 1985- 86. You ' re asking me fo r what you consider an explanation of a more significant increase , 1985-86 over 1984-85. My rep ly was that I don 't have in front of me the 1984-85 data, but the main reas on for the shift was that the payroll function has been brought into this personnel area; they are now working together and that's accounted for. It's a reorganization internally tha t's produced the change , not a straight add-on function. MR. A. BROWN: To me this is a rat her important department because they do the recruitment, they do the evaluation .

I wonder, when they did the recruitment , is the Civil Service Comm ission invo lved at all. Who does the advertising for staff for positions and who does the selection? HON. M. SMITH: As with some other large staffing depa rtments , the Civil Service monitors a delegated authority that we put into these departments. The senior levels of staffing are recruited through the Civil Service Commission and then they periodically monitor our recruitment and evaluation and so on that is being done by delegated authorities . There is a formal process we go through that delegates an authority to hire up to a certain level.

MR. A. BROWN: Could the Minister give me some kind of an indication as to who sits on a committee to consider the appointment::- of senior level employees? HON. M. SMITH : The general practice is to have three ; one from the Civil Service Commission ; one from our department ; and , depending on the specialty being hired, a third person from either our department or another department. This is for senio r officer level and up. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman, has the personnel of the Personnel Department changed dramatically this year? HON. M.

SMITH: Not in number , but we have in fact appointed a woman as head of the branch , Leslie Maccallum . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Does that account for the fact that there 's only a $1 ,500 salary increase here over the whole budget? HON. M. SMITH: No, the shift is a combination of some ups and some downs. This person would be 1058

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 brought in according to the level of experience and expertise. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: I really wouldn't expect the Minister to do anything different. As far as Recoverable from Canada is concerned, is that a specific

section of personnel or is it generally just all over the board? HON. M. SMITH: The recoverable amount is the total of prorating how much time the members spend on programs that are considered cost-sharea ble. it's a complex way of arriving at the figure, but we try to prorate the time required as best we can. There is a program initiative which I'd like to refer to. This group has been responsible for coordinating a departmental affirmative action plan to improve the employment opportunities for target group members.

They have also actively assisted in the development of the department's effective performance management initiatives - initiating a department-wide study of the human resource function, implementing a long-term disability plan and a deferred salary leave - also part of the 1985-86 program ming. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: I'd like to congr atulate the Minister on the fact that affirmative action seems to be working in her department since it's been taken over by a woman.

Can she, in fact, tell us of any other activity within affirmative action in regard to the hiring of Natives or members of the visible minorities in her department? HON. M. SMITH: I can tell you the record for the past year - of the 364 appointments made in the department dur ing 1985-86; 22 were Native or 6 percent; 3 physically disabled or .8 percent; 17 visible minority or 4. 7 percent. Total appointments to female underr epresentated classifications were 88 or 24.2 perce nt. In addition, the br anch un dertook 81 classification reviews.

The plan ned activities for 19 86-87 include the development of a Policy and Procedure Manual for departmental managers. Implementation of the Effective Performance Management System, review of the nursing series and continued efforts in the area of affirmative action. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. Mc CRAE: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister just cited some statistics respect ing affirmative action, and I ask the Minister what the target is and how close you are to the target that's set by, I believe, the Civil Service Commis sion - or is it the Labour Department? - I think it's the Civil Service Commission. HON. M. SMITH: We've developed an affirmative action planning cooperation with the people working in the department. There are long-term goals of trying to match the numb ers to a rough proportion of people of that group in the communi ty.

With specific areas, it's to match them to people with appropriate training so that we are dealing with realistic proportions. Our goal is to be at or above the progress rate year by-year to gradually restore or create a more effective balance. Because there's so little attrition going on in the Civil Service it's not something that can be achieved overn ight. MR. J. Mc CRAE: How long have those targets been in existence? HON. M. SMITH: About a year-and-a-half ago the government did establish long-term targets. Then each department has come up with long-term departmental targets.

I don't have the specific percentages but I'm aware that they're attempting to blend both the num bers of people in the community of that particular group, and the num bers of people trained for the types of work. But natu rally we' re looking at some mo vement, promotion and so on, up the ladd er. We have completed a departmental affi rmative action plan which has yearly targets and it's been submi tted to the Central Government Commi ttee that's looking at that.

We haven't done quite as well on the physically disabled as we would have liked, but we're a little ahead in the area of Native targeting and the appointment of women. MR. J. Mc CRAE: The physically disabled one being the tiny little percentage - .8 percent; that one? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, but the significance of those percentages can only be, I guess, evaluated in relation to the numb ers of physically disabled in the community at large and who have training for the appropriate jobs. I don't have all that detail, but that's the general way we're approaching it. MR. J.

Mc CRAE: If I were to ask these questions at the time of the Civil Service Commission Esti mates, would the detail be available there for each of the departments that I might be looking for? MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Affirmative Action Coordinator is under the Department of Labour , so I think that would be the appropriate place. The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I want direction from the Minister. Wo uld this be the place I would ask about one of the employees that I had written to her about - it is on long-term disability - who is trying to be redeployed.

Would they be the department or another department? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, this would be the time, although I think if I haven't responded yet .. . MRS. G. HAMMOND: No, you haven't. HON. M. SMITH: Okay, well if you wish to raise the issue, fine. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I want to raise it on his behalf. This particular employee, as you know, has a history 1059

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 of asthma . It's work-related , it has been indicated that it's work related and has actively been looking for work for months. He is now on long-term disability, as I've indicated. I sent a letter to the Minister telling her the length that this man has gone to to try and get another job through the government , whether in his own department or somewhere else in government. There seems to have been no effort at all in trying to get this young man redeployed. His work record is good . He's just short of having a B .A. degree so his eduction is good.

Yet he is under the threat, right now, of being taken off his long-term disability as of September . This is turning out to be a very stressful type of thing for him. He's landed back in the hospital after talki ng to Great -West Life because eviden tly the officer tha t looked after people on long-term disabili ty is no longer in that position, and they've turned it back over to Great-West Life. When he contacted them , they had no record , and as of the beginning of this month, no one had contacted them about him at all. I reall y find it very difficul t.

When I received the Minister's letter, the Minister indicated that he's a willing worker and well thought of in Corrections and that , to date, it has not been possible for us to find alternative employment for him . He has applied for practically everything that has come in that has been bulletined that is anywhere within his competency, and he's tried to stay in the areas that he would genuinely be able to do a good job . Not only has nothing been done for him , but he's hardly even had an interview.

I really feel that , when you have a long-te rm employee, because I believe he's been with the department for 12 years - no, I'm wrong . He's been with the department since 1979 , but he's had some commendations on the job. I find it very difficult to believe that there could not have been an extra effort to help this man be redeployed within the department. That's why I wrote to the Minister , because I really felt that possibly she could have taken a greater interest in this particular case .

He has indicated to me that , when employees have been charged with criminal offences, either unrelated or related to their employment, they are redeployed to other departments rather than being suspended, which is fine . But the fact is that here is someone who is not being char ged with anything and, because of a health problem - and it's related to smoke in many ways - that he hasn't been able to find a thing . There seems to be very little that is done to help, certainly him . I don't know what's happening to other peop le who are on long-term disability .

He 's had no offers of redeployment and no offers of rehab training. I think possibly , after it has been turned over to Great West Life , I don't know what's going to happen now, but I wonder if the Minister would comment on what is to happen to this young man as of September 23 when he hasn 't received any encouragement at all. In fact , anything he has done, he has had to push for and strive on his own . There has been no one who has really held out a hand to this young man, except to say in practically every circumstance , don't worry. Within three or four months, you'll be redeployed, and it hasn't happened.

Excuse me, the Minister knows who I'm referring to . Do you? HON. M. SMITH: To tell you the tru th, I would have to see the letter again to refresh my memory . I can undertake to take a second look at the situation . We certainly have tried to be as humane as we can in these situations . I would though want to correct a misapprehension. In terms of re-employing people with criminal records MRS. G. HAMMOND: Charges . HON. M. SMITH: Charges, aga in it's a sort of loose allegation .

I can understand how the individual might feel that some people are getting a fairer deal than others, but we do have a criminal record check policy when we're hiring people which we have under review by the Civil Service Commis sion to see if that's the most appropriate way to handle the individual 's rights over agains t the need of our clients to have enough protection. In this particular case , I can certainly take another look at it and see whether there is something that can be done . I certainly know that we're getting very many more applicat ions for jobs than we can possibly accommodate .

So there is that general problem out there . We've done our best to redeploy people in general, and I certainly will take another look to see if anything can be done for this individual. MRS. G. HAMMOND: When I was indicating about the criminal offences, these were charges that were made while people had been on the job . They have been redeployed - I imagine that there have been cases like that - without any difficulty and immediately, some out of the department - when I'm saying some, it could be one - and in. I think that 's where probably he's feeling that it's very unfair , and you can imagine that it's so.

What he would like is some assurance that he would either have retraining for redeployment and that his long-term disability would not be cut off as of September . Had he realized what the implications of long-term disability and how short long-term disability turns out to be, he would not have applied for it. He really has gone above and beyond what most people do to try to get a job . He's taken every course - I was going to use the word , well I won 't - every little course that there 's been available. I'll just mention a few.

They wer e in the letter that I sent to the Minister , with the Development and Training Branch . He really had to push these . He took Supervisory Basics , Strategies for Effective Listening . By the end of June , he would have completed Dealing with the Public , Negotiating Skills , Interviewing Skills , Assertiveness Training . I mean, he was really going above and beyond. This isn't a young man who's just been sitting back . Not only that , he's cataloguin g every job that he's tried to get and everything that he' s tried to do with no real help from the department .

I believe that it would be in the government's best int ere sts and certainly in the Minister 's, on behalf of this young man , to make an effort for one of your own employees to find something else for him if he can't go back to the same job , because he's willing to work and able to work if he can get into a better atmosphere. 1060

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 He left me a copy of the contac t that had the MGEA magazine , which was talking about second-hand smoke. There's a note on it which says that, at a meeting of the Joint Council, the MGEA and the government agreed to the formation of a committee to develop a policy on the subject of smoking and non-smoking in the workplace. So the government recognizes that there's something wrong, and I would ask that the Minister make a special effort on behalf of this young man, who has been one of her good employees , to try and see that he isn't relocated. HON. M.

SMITH: Well, I have undertaken to take a second look. I would like to draw the member's attention to the fact that, in the letter sent to her dated May 30 in response to her letter of May 12, I did indicate that he had been referred to and met with the Personnel Division on May 7. We do acknowledge that he's a very willing worker and well thought of in Corrections . We've acknowledged that, to date, we haven't found alternative employment , but that we will continue our efforts to assist Mr. Fougere in finding suitable employment. That was the commi tme nt given in the letter and we' ll certainly honour it. MRS.

G. HAMMOND: As of last week or the week before, he hadn't heard from anyone in the department. Is there any personnel and with the affirmative action, are there people there who could help him when he applies to other departments to at least get an inte rview for some of the positions that he has applied for? HON. M. SMITH: We'll look into the circumstances and see if there is anything that can be done to help Mr. Fougere. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(gX1) - the Member for Rhineland . MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairm an. I notice in this particular appropriation over here , we have the evaluation of staff .

Can the Minister tell me who does the evaluation and the classification of positions? HON. M. SMITH : A department such as ours has many levels and each person in a sense has a supervi sor who is responsible for seeing that there is a job description and periodically reviewing it with the worker, developing achievement targets that tie into the overa ll targets for the department and giving an evaluation of the performance of the individual, providing assistance where appropriate or remedying the situation and helping the individual to perform up to optimum level.

Rarely in those circumstances do you find someone who just is not measuring up. But if that is the method by which you can identify people and if they are not able after extensive help to measure up, then we do consider redeploying them. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister's department has come under rather severe criticism from man y areas over the last while. I wonder, has the Minis ter ever considere d getting an independent source to come in and do some evaluation of some of these problem areas? HON. M.

SMITH : In the development of an effective organization, it's often a delusion that you can bring 1061 an outsider in and get them to spot all the troubles, give the magic answers and then disappear. In fact, in training and developing systems , we do bring in outsiders to advise and train . But in the long run, the effectiveness of personnel policies and training, evaluation and so on, is more likely to result from the whole department and all the supervisor s being able to carry out those functions and work as a coordinating group.

In fact, we are well into a training program that I think has currently reached more than 200 of our people who have managerial and supervisory roles in effective performance management. Because, what we're looking at is the workers' ability to perform in their job and achieve the target set. MR. A. BROWN: Especially in the train ing of employees, the Minister mentioned that they were getting outside help in to train some of these employees, where would she be finding this outside help?

And my question would be: would not a considerable amount of these peop le, who would be com ing in to train, would they not be involved with the Child and Family Services where tra inin g would be done, or which particular areas is she training employees? HON. M. SMITH: There is quite a complex mix of training programs. The Civil Service Commission offers some. We have some internal trainers, and certainly in the Child and Family area , increasingly we are hiring people to train worker s in the field.

For example, we've put in two trainers under the coordinator of the child abuse programs in Winnipeg to do just that , to train staff in all the agencies in handling child abuse . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)(1)-pass; 1.(g)(2)-pass . 2. Registrat ion and Licensing Services, Resolution 30-pass - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: How many SY's do we have under Vita l Statistics? HON. M. SMITH: Thirty-two - the same as last year. MR. A. BROWN: Vital Statistics does work , not only, I suppose, for the Department of Community Services, but for various other departments.

Is there any money coming into Vital Statistics from other departments , or is Community Services payi ng the entire cost of Vital Statistics? HON. M. SMITH: This is not so much the collection of statist ics as the providing of registration and certification of records of vital events and public services related to The Marriage Act, The Vital Statistics Act , The Change of Name Act, and The Child Welfar e Act. Fees are charged for this service . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In that fees are charged, what is the in fact input into this department in ways of fees?

In other words, is it a department that's paying its own way or is there indeed an additional cost? HON. M. SMITH: We estimate our revenues this year of being around one million.

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the detailed estimates of revenues indicate the revenue is . . . (inaudible) . . . million this year . . . Does that include the increase that was referred to I believe in the budget? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, that include s an increase in the charges for Birth, Marriage and Death certificates, photocopies of registrations, fees for search and report by the director. MR. G. MERCIER: Ho w do es the Mini ster justify charging fees of $1.1 million for an area that costs $853,000.00? HON. M.

SMITH: There is a total service provi ded. There is some anticipated incr ease because of the Child and Family Services Act which may increase the cost during the year, but it is true that the revenue will be slightly higher than the projected costs. MR. G. MERCIER: The Minister referred to additional costs. Could she ela borate and tell the comm ittee what she's referring to? HON. M. SMITH: There's a potential incr ease in workload in the active adoption registry provision in The Child and Family Service Act. MR. G. MERCIER: How will Vital Statistics be involved in that? HON. M.

SMITH: There may be some searches of vital records, family records. MR. G. MERCIER: You'r e saying the department may have to expend more than is budge ted in this area? HON. M. SMITH: We expect to absorb the workload. MR. G. MERCIER: So ther e will be no extra expenditures? HON. M. SMITH: We don't expect there to be extra expenditures. MR. G. MERCIER: So the government will then have a profit of some $250,000 in the operation of the Vital Statistics Depart ment, from people who have to buy birth certificates, de ath certif icates, adoption certificates. Does the Minister consider that fair? HON. M.

SMITH: The choices available to government are not easy ones. We don't feel that the cost is exorbitant and it does permit some cross-subsidization with the registration and licensing function that's in the same branch. MR. G. MERCIER: Does the Minister not consider this to be a tax on those people who must apply for these types of certificates? HON. M. SMITH: lt could be described in that way. We do keep regular comparisons with fees being charged in other provinces to ensure that we're not too far out of line. MR. G.

MERCIER: Does the Minister have some statistics on the numb er of adoptions recorded over the past number of years on an annual basis? Wo uld it not be too much to ask say for the past 10 years, the annual number of adoptions recorded? HO N. M. SMITH: We 'll unde rtake to get that information. MR. G. MERCIER: I'd appreciate that in the next day or so and it can be used later on. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1)- pass. 2.(a)(2)-pass - the Member for River Heights on 2.(a)(2). MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: 2.(a )(2), no, sorry Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, 2.(b) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you.

I'm a little puzzled about Residential Care Licensing. Where I was puzzled in most of the other areas because we had a huge incr ease over the period of three years - in this particular area we have a 2 percent incr ease this year - but over the three year period of time we have a 27 percent decrease.

My question is how at a time when all of these commu nity-based residential programs that are coming into force, can the Minister possibly cut back on an important area such as this that does not only the licensing but it does the monitoring of the Welcome Ho me Program that's coming into effect, you have open custody? You have so many more homes to supervise, how can the Minister possibly hope to do the kind of monitoring which is essential when you're talking about commun ity-based residential programs? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, I can appreciate why the member would be concerned.

The licensing function is separate from the care monitoring function and the staff that will be monitoring the program within, say the Welcome Home Program, will show up under the Welcome Home area. This is basically the licensing of the fire safety space and so on. The health concerns of the wide range of residential care homes, as you may or may not know, when there are homes for the aged and the infirm and the post-mentally ill, while the program responsibility for those has customarily rested with the Health Department, Community Services has been responsible for the basic fire safety and health standards.

MR. A. BROWN: Well, there's not only the granting of the licences which in itself, I'm sure a fairly extensive amount of time must be spent in evaluating a certain home or wh atever building you have in order to give it the licensing, but then there's also the monitoring that has to be maintained. I wonder if the Minister could give me any indic ation at all as to how often the place would be monitored once it receives a licence. Does she have any set pattern that is being followed 1062

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 in order to determine that prop er moni toring is going on? HON. M. SMITH: A minimum of twice a year. MR. A. BROWN: Would that include all instances or would that be just the major institutions , let's say, lik e somebody like MDC and large institutions, or would this include also group homes? HON. M. SMITH: It would cover the group home category .

There's children's facilities, the licensed child and family serv ice, some non-private , private , small scale children's institutional homes , and then in the adult field there's the mental retardation, mental health, infirm aged, mixed functional and voluntary licensing groups. So, it doesn't cover the large institutions such as MDC , St. Amant, Pelican Lake. MR. A. BROWN: How many SY's are involved in this area? HON. M. SMITH: Seven . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The SY's, are they the same as last year? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. S .

CARSTAIRS: But you also lost one to admin? HON. M. SMITH: Sorry . There was an adjustment mid year, a transfer of one staff to administrative services. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So you, in fact, had seven and eight for part of last year is that corre ct? HON. M. SMITH: Yes. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I too share the Member for Rhineland's concern about this.

If we're going to release 220 from the Welcome Home Program via MDC into the community and if we know we've got another 100- plus post-mentally ill for which we have to have licensing of residential care homes, I don't understand how the process of monitoring , developing and maintaining standards is going to be maintained. HON. M. SMTIH: As I said before , the program responsibility rests within program areas of departments and the Welcome Home , the monitoring of the pro gram and the well-being of the individuals will be through that program .

The licensing function has been related primarily to the health and the physical safety aspects. Again, I think as the programs evolve, that full program responsibility and linkage with the physical licensing is something that I would like to see but at the moment this licensing system is as I say, it's located here and the licensing criteria are primarily of the physical safety and well-being of residents. The program elements rest in other program areas . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr.

Chairman , in the report of this department , page 12 and 13 under Residential Care Licensing, it includes a much broader definition of what this particular

section of the budget includes. It says, "services providing food, developing and maintaining stan dards , processing applications, monitoring facility operation for conformity with regulated standards, maintenance and provision of facility registry and statistical information and ass ista nce in program development." And my question remains, how can that all be done with this amount of money? HON. M.

SMITH: I agree that in time the physical licensing and the program licensing should develop , but at the moment the licensing standards that the community residential care facilities must meet are being met by the staff. We do not have responsibility in this area for placing individuals and developing programs for the individuals. The inspector is really a person who goes in and ensures that the licensing criteria are being met. There is another program function which is by far the more time consuming. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Mr. Chairman , I don 't question that.

I realize the programming function is entirel y separate, but if we ju st take the Welcome Home grou p. There are 220 by January 1, 1987 , which is approximately 12 resident ial complexes , in addition to the ones they 're already doing, and I don't see how they 're going to be established with proper standards , proper monitoring, proper inspections, prior to Jan uary 1, 1987 . HON. M. SMITH: We have been managing 627 facilitie s with the staff we have with visits a minimum of twice a year. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Well that leads me to the next question.

If you've been managing 627 facilities with seven staff being visited twice a year, how long are they spending at each facility? HON. M. SMITH: An average of a day. 1063 MR. G. MERCIER: Much of these facilities I take it are in the main operated by pri vate persons , individuals. Could the minister indicate whether these operators will be receiving any increase in fees paid to them? MR. CHAIRMAN : Excuse me; it 's hard to hear. Could you speak up? HON. M. SMITH: The fee issue is handled through Employment Services and Economic Security .

As I say, the division of these functions among the departments has been there for some time . The financial aspect of it is handled under Econo mic Security and Empl oyment Services. The setting of the licensing standards and monitoring them is under our department and there 's some program responsibil iti es in Health and some in our other branches of our department. MR. G. MERCIER: It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman , that the administr at ion of these types of facilit ies shou ld be in one department , insofar as the types of services that are being provided that establishes the reg ulations and pays them properly for the fees to be provid ed.

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 Inasmuch as the standards to be maintained, and certa inly in a great way dependent upon the fees that they receive, can the Minister indicate whether the operators will be receiving a fee increase this year? MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 would suggest that ... lt's not within the purview of this Minister in this line of Estimates. I think that will be under Economic Securit y. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I think it's very much in the pu rview of this Min ister . This Mini ster is establishing the standards.

Surely she has to be aware of what the operators are rece iving, whether there will be any increase. HON. M. SMITH: The separation of the licensing function from the revenue side is to ensure that there's no conflict of interest. The licensed person goes in to see that standards are in fact being met. Many of the aged people are in fact paying their own way in these homes and our oblig ation is to see that the basic health standards and physical standards are being met. lt is tr ue that there is a co-ord ination or a co mmu nic ation among the depart ments on these issues.

I don't mean to say that we never talk to one another or talk about the adequacy of levels of payment, but the decision and the payout does come from the other department and I think that those issues can more appropriately be raised there.

What we look at, and I know there have been some groups that have been concerned at their fiscal ability to upgrade and meet some of the standards that are part of our licensing; what we do is look at that category of homes and how other operators are managing and, to that extent, arrive at some assessment to the extent that Economic Security consults us, some assessment as to the adequ acy of rates. In fact, some of these homes that we license are private and many of the guests are in fact self-payi ng. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in the Annual Report, on Page 12 it refers to the branch that monitors letters of approval for residential care facilities to the maximum four children. Can the minister indicate how that is defined and what happens if you have more than four children and what happens if, for example, you had three of your own and two childr en in care? HON. M. SMITH: Just referring to that paragraph on Page 14 of the report, there are two levels of approval. The num bers refer to the numbers over and above family members, so that you could have your own children but they wouldn't be counted in the num ber of children.

If a residential care facility has up to four children or three adults, they can get a letter of approval from the licensing branch. If they have more than four child ren or three adults, then they must go under the usual licensing criteria. MR. G. MERCIER: Just to clarify that, if a family or a single parent or parents or two adults were looking after three children in care, would they have to be licensed and protected? HON. M.

SMITH: If I've heard you correctly , parents who have three childr en for whom they're caring, three not their own children, they would require a letter of approval. lt's only when they had more than four children or more than three adults that they would have to be licensed. Now that doesn't necessarily apply to zoning which is another issue. MR. G. MERCIER: If you have one person, one child in care, do you need a letter of approval? HON. M. SMITH: If there is placement by an agency. If there is a casual relationship by a family arrangement, then it would not be conside red in the same light. MR. G.

MERCIER: Is there a different standard for obtaining a letter of approval than for being licensed? HON. M. SMITH: The physical standards are not as onerous for the smaller number as they are for the larger num ber. it's assumed that fire and safety and health issues become more complex almost like on a geometric progression as you get more people. The small er-scale arrangements have a less onerous approval on their mechanism process. MR. G. MERCIER: Who issues? You say the branch monitors letters of approval. The letter of approval, I believe you said, was issued by the child-caring agency? HON. M.

SMITH: There are two approvals required, a letter of approval from the regional office having to do with the residents and an approval from the child caring agency for placement. MR. G. MERCIER: Which comes first? HON. M. SMITH: I think what I would like to do is get all the detail on a piece of paper and hand it to you because I think in trying to sort it all out we may end up sort of adding more confusion than clarity. MR. CHAIRMAN: Appropria tely, the time being 4:30 p.m., it is time for Private Members' Hour. I will interrupt the proceed ings until 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - AGRI CULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C.

Santos: Comm ittee, please come to order. This

section of the Comm ittee of Supply has been dealing with Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. We are in Item No. 4.(f)

(1) Marketing Branch: Salaries. The Honourable Minister. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, when we left off yesterday I had begun to provide for members, details on the current activities in our Marketing Branch dealing with export market development as well as some of our goals for the 19 86-87 year. I think I should indic ate to the honourable members that this year alone, in terms of assisting industry in export marketing, we have cooperated with, I would say, the major packers of Manitoba in obtaining in excess of .5 million of new business in the 1985-86 year on pork sales, primarily to Japan, and participated 1064

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 in a number of missions between Manitoba and Japan as well. We're looking at increasing the volume of business in the pork area to in the neighbourhood of .75 million to $1 million this coming year, substantially increasing that business. That is new business, over and above what had been there before. As well, in the poultry area, we've worked with the Marketing Board, as well as a number of the processors in this area. As I indicated the other day, we shipped almost 53 metric tonnes of processed poultry products valued at close to $300,000.00.

This was new business or incr eased business from years before. As well, in the whole area of beef, we've cooperated with the Beef Commi ssion and a numb er of packers in developing market activities. We're looking at a numb er of offshore proposals for further processed products in the beef area.

As well, with the goose indus try, the two goose plants that we have in the province, we've exported fairly su bstantial amounts south of the border , and we've penetrated some of the European Economic Community in this area. lt has been small to this point, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 50,000 kilograms of product. lt should be noted for my honourable friends that 90 percent of Canada's comme rcial go ose ma rket production is right here in the Province of Manitoba. We're the major goose producers in Canada.

As well, a new industry was developed in the Province of Manitoba, and that is the pheasant indus try. We're looking at beginning to target the offshore markets and, in fact, have received small orders, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2,5 00 kilograms of orders for pheasant meat offshore. That is the beginning in a fledgling industry in the Province of Manitoba. As well, in the area of breeding stock, we have an ongoing commi tment between ourselves and the Manitoba Swine Breeders Association as well as private exporters to ship breeding stock to China and Japan.

There were missions into China and Japan this past year, and there likely will be other missions offshore to those countries in 1986-87. We are looking at, for this coming year, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 200 to 250 swine to be shipped to offshore markets. I should indicate to my honourable friend that there are increased missions, both to the Orient and from the Orient coming into Manitoba over the last couple of years.

In fact, there is a new group of purchasers and traders coming into Manitoba within the next week or so who have been involved, both in the construction indu stry - I guess it would be called the construction ind ustry - and have involvement , and bus iness dealings are now involved in processed food products. They're interested in Manitoba relationships. As well, as I indicated to Japan and China on livestock, those are some of the work . . .

Insofar as dairy and beef cattle, we've established with a Holstein-Friesen Association, a dairy cattle export com mittee and investigated sales possibilities for embryos in China, live animals to Mexico and Kenya. As well, we're looking at investigations through the Asian Devel opment Bank for possi ble markets in Indonesia and the Phillipines for da iry cattle and the like, as well as China and Mexico and others. In the beef cattle, we're looking at Central and Northern Mexico for greater expansion of beef cattle and breeding stock in tho se areas.

In the area of forage crops and seeds, we've been involved with Manitoba producer groups and Ag Canada and the Univ ersity of Manitoba in a cooperative way to try and increase the promotion and sale of forages and forage seeds, both North America-wide and offshore. Special crops, of course, we have a long-standing relationship with the Japanese, Japan Buckwheat Millers Assoc iation, the Mitsubishi Corporation and, in cooperation with Manitoba produc ers and contracting firms, Manitoba produces about 50 percent of Canada's production in buckwheat.

The Mancan variety of Manitoba buckwheat is highly regarded in the Japanese market. We have had difficulty in terms of prod uction. Primari ly, I believe that there is an attitude difficu lty, at least in our own province, that buckwheat is an afterthought. lt is not being used as part of the rotational and production plans of many farmers. it's a kind of hit-and-miss crop which has kind of created some uncertainty in terms of our ability to supply that oriental market.

We have been very concerned about that and our staff have been trying to promote buckwheat as more into the rotational plans of farmers who have experience in growing it, because it is an ongoing market, although it is a cash crop in the sense that they have to play the market. But over the last num ber of years, there's been a fair return from the export market in this area. But it has not developed into a consistent supply so that we can, in fact, what I would say, boast the fact that we are a reliable supplier. That is our greatest difficulty in supplying that offshore market.

The Buckwheat Mill ers' Association visited this countr y in 19 85 and there's been a num ber of exchanges of clientele back and forth from Japan and Manitoba in this whole area of buckwheat. In the area of peas, beans, lentils, canary seed, mustard seed, we do work with the producers, the producers' association and Manitoba contract firms. We have responded to many inquiries from foreign sou rces in South America, Europe, United Kingdom, Nigeria, Guatemala. We are preparing a kit containing samples of grains, pulse and oi lseeds from Manitoba and will continue to route inquir ies to Ma nitoba contracting firms.

We are working with the Pulse Growers' Association in production of a brochure in different languages to promote pulse crops. We have, of course, worked very closely with the Manitoba wild rice industr y. Last year, we hosted two missions from Germa ny. Samples of the product were sent to Germany, France, New Zealand, Denmark and Japan, with small sales made to New Zealand, Germany and Japan. A MEMBER: Why is production falling? HON. B. URUSKI: In the same way as we can't under stand the whole question of buckwheat, why the buckwheat production . . . A MEMBER: I'll tell you the reason for that. HON. B.

URUSKI: Can you? You tell me the reason. (inaudible) 1065

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 In terms of canola, of course, we work with the Canola Council of Canada and other western provinces in Japanese consumer promotion, and have assisted the Canola Council with financing the annual meeting in San Francisco and the like to promote the use of canola products. As well, we are involved in the international promotion of Food Pacific 86 as an adjunct to the World Expo in Vancouver, and we will be there from August 29 to September 2 in conjunction with that.

Ten Manitoba firms will be participating, and our department, along with IT and T, will be assisting in the funding and staffing that display booth in Food Pacific. As well, we continually work with the Manitoba Food Products Di rectory and distribute it to all Canadian Embassies and Consulates worldwide, and continually updating that brochure. As well, we have printed and distributed a number of brochures in Japan, in the Japanese language, with several Manitoba export commodities like pork and poult ry.

In fact, we participated in the design and distribution of a recipe book in Japanese to promote Manitob a-produced products in terms of pork and poultry and the like. We assist with the Manitoba Breed Associations in terms of having ads in the Wo rld of Beef, ads in the Record Stockman USA on breeding stock, in support of the Ag Ex in Brandon and, of course, the Agribition in Regina. We will continue to work there. Last year, in the fiscal year of 1985-86, our Premier attended the Manitoba Night at the Canadian Club in New York City to promote Manitoba products.

Our staff arranged a menu assemb ly, packing and shipping for what we could consider a very successful event there. We expect our turn, of course, to come again in 1995 at this event there, and we will be participating in that area. Each province, as I under stand it, is given one night a year to promote produce from their own area in the New York market dealing with a large clientele of the busine ss community in that city. Those are some of the highlights that I have provided to the honourable member. If he has some specific questions, we will endeavour to answer them.

As well, in the area of - I guess I went as far as geese and ducks. Last year we did not deal with the whole area of vegetables and vegetable promotion. We designed and coord inated a new image in the whole area of Manitoba food production, entitled, "E njoy the great taste of Manitoba vegetables," an availability and ordering specifications chart designed for retail wholesale trade and the food service indu stry. We also coordinated printing and distribution of a new brochure indicating the locations of "U -pick" vegetable operations and roadside stands.

As well, we worked with the Manitoba Veget able Producers' Marketing Board to develop a survey addressing the topic of vegetable usage in the food service indust ry, and we are applying through the Student Temporary Employment Program within government to have a student carry out the survey to find out how much usage is being made of Manito ba-grown products. The survey is being done right now. I'm sorry , I said that we had applied.

The survey is being done by a student to really see how effective the work is we're doing in this marketing area on the use of Manitoba vegetables in the food service industr y. 1066 As well, we've provided displays to the Vegetable Board for annual convention and trade shows at the Canadian Food and Vegetable Wholesale Association in Calgar y. Of course, we're using a new logo and new colours in the "Fresh for Flavour" promotional calendar dealing with Manitoba vegetables. In this coming year, we are encouraging installation of vacuum-cooling and hydro-co oling.

Competition elsewhere in Canada and the Un ited States is extensively using this technology and we're trying to get industry involved in this whole area so that we can in fact be competing right up in terms of the technology in the marketplace. As well, in conjunction with Ag-Canada, IT and T, and the Manitoba Vegetable Producers' Marketing Board and Growers, we endeavour to extend our availability of supply through improved, expanded storage. Of course, we are continuing to encourage the establishment of frozen vegetable processors in Manitoba.

In concert with our own Soils and Crops Branch, we undertake market investigation with regard to the potential of new product development, supervise a su rvey re the food service use of Manitoba vegetables. That's what we're into now. We were closely aligned with the "U-pick" industry of the Strawberry Association of Manitoba and assisted them to plan their promotional activity for the year.

We tested all their recipes and wrote a copy of a new recipe brochure, printed it and distributed 20,000 "U-pick" maps, assisted in organizing strawberry promotions with selected Winnipeg restau rants, and provided booth and display material for the Red River Exhibition. We have also worked with the associat ion to organize Strawberry Hotline, a consumer phone-in service staffed for the summer by a university student, and contacted the media and wrote newspaper articles on the use of strawberries.

We will continue in all these areas this coming year as well as test recipes to produce a new recipe brochure, if there are new areas that we should be looking at. We've also worked extensively with the Greenhouse, Nur sery and Landscape Industry in planning their promotional programs. We've collected data, edited articles for a special outdoor supplement for the Free Press; and, of course, assisted them in the preparation of a new membership directory and we intend to continue that liaison. I guess I could go on and on and on. There's a whole host of others and I think I will stop there at the present time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Mr. Chairman, you're mentioning the projects that the marketing branch is involv ed in. There was a lot of discussion with pork and vegetables, the poultry industry. There wasn't very much mention of the beef industry and could he . HON. B. URUSKI: Beef? MR. G. FINDLAY: Yes. I'm wondering to what extent the beef industry is being supported in this direct ion, considering the economic input that they put through

Thursday, 19 June, 1986 the province, in terms of the basic industry and the processing industry; and are we involved in selling carcasses live, processed products, specialty-type products from the beef industry? Can he expand in this area if there's anything going on? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I should indicate to my honourable friend that we now have, on staff, a person in the marketing area whose major expertise is in the beef industry . He has just come onstream at the beginning of this year.

We did have a number of staff, for example, Burt Waters, who was one of our marketing people, has gone as general manage r of the Turkey and Chicken Marketing Board . We had a number of people retire. We did not have someone whose expertise was in the red meats sector, as much as we would have liked . The person we have now, Terry Young, who is our marketing person who just came in from the industry and joined our branch , has, I would say, 15 years or more experience in the whole red meat area .

I think one of the major areas that the beef industry , in terms of expansion of production, has generall y concentrated its development on fresh product or frozen, in terms of the vacuum-packed or whatever in terms of the fresh cuts. They have not tended to look into the further processing area as some of the other industrie s have tended to move. I think that's the area that probably deserves the greatest investigation and look, in terms of what might be possible for export potential.

We're now working on some research through the Canadian Food Products Centre in Portage on the whole area of the fast-food industry, the "beef-fingers" area. There's research being done there to try and really go beyond the hamburger market, so to speak, in the fast food industry.

We are concentrating some development in assisting industry in that whole area, but it is the expansion into that fast-food industry beyond the hamburger market, will be the area that I think has to be concentrated on, recognizing that the consumption of red meats is on the downslide and has been for the past, I would say, seven or eight years and it's continuing to drop. North American eating habits are changing and the industry itself has, I would say to some degree, not reflected that change or attempted to reflect it.

We're now starting to move - even though I believe we're ahead of our counterparts down south - in terms of what consumers demand, rather than having bas ica lly that inch of fat on those steaks, that's not what the consumers are demanding. They want good quality, lean product that they can use and that's the area tha t has to do more in the grading area, and our own Beef Commission has coordinated an approach with all the breed associations to develop a strategy .

In fact , we've developed a strategy in the whole grading sector and made extensive proposals to the Federal Government in terms of changes we would like to see. But, as you know, changes in that whole grading system do take time and are not very swift in coming, but we 're continuing to work in that area. MR. G. FINDLAY: Does the Minister believe that advertising promotes sales of Manitoba products? HON. B. URUSKI: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you. MR. G. FINDLAY: Do you believe that advertising promotion the sale of Manitoba products? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, there's no doubt that advertising will do a certain amount of promotion, but after that you also, depending what market you're into, you can advertise all you want and if the market is difficu lt to penetrate, you will have one heck of a time breaking into it. I think you have to have an acceptable product and it will be a long-term effort. I don't know whether you could pour in thousands and thousands of dollars and never really be able to concretely meas ure the impact of the advertising dollar .

We believe that there is value in it, but I don't believe that we should just pour in an umlimited amount of dollars, which we don 't have, in terms of advertising, but we do promote , within our own provi nce , the promotion of Manitoba-grown product. And , of course, we have to have cooperation with the entire industry. If it isn't industry-wide , then the government can do all the promotion it wants; it has to be integrated in terms of the market that you're trying to address , in term s of the promotion you're doing. MR. G.

FINDLAY: I'm thinking particu larly in Manitoba of the ads that we see periodically, once in a while, in pou ltry and in pork . Those ads seem to be pretty effective. I've seen comments from people - and milk I guess is another one - and these are commod ities advertised, using producer's money, as far as I am aware , coming from the marketing boards and their ability to collect the checkoff for promotion.

I think back a few years, there was a substantial move across Canada to promote the sale of beef, a beef promotion across Canada, and the checkoff was occurring here in Manito ba, and the Minister has already identified that beef consumpt ion is going down, but yet he removed the checkoff that allowed for beef promotion on behalf of the producers of Manitoba. I would say that was a negative move and we're still seeing the effect of it, because he's already said that beef consumption is still going down and we're doing nothing to address it. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member knows that it's not a Manitoba phenomeno n; it is a worldwide phenomenon. The checkoff - the hon

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-1-30a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 1st hansardpdf 30a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	467db053b88a6a926604521dfc7da6a9dfc54e35

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).