LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 8 August, 1986. Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for lnkster that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried .

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to present the 35th Annual Report of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the year ended March 31, 19 86. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. J. COWAN introduced, by leave, Bill No. 53,

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act; Loi modif iant la

Loi sur I' Assemblee legislative. (R ecommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor). ORAL QUESTIONS MTX - discriminatory hiring practices MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Premier. In view of the fact that the Canadian Human Rights Commission has refused to investigate the allegations of discriminatory hiring practices at MTX and its Saudi Arabian subsidiary company SADL, I wonder if the Premier will now refer the matter to the Manitoba Human Rights Commission for investigation and review.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it is true the Canadian Human Rights Commission advised this week that, because of jurisdictional concerns on their part, MTX being a provincial Crown corporation, that they did not feel they had jurisdiction that would permit them to make a ruling. I am, however, going to accept an invitation from Mr. Fairweather to discuss with him this matter further as to different avenues that might be available.

I do want to indicate, however, Madam Speaker, that any discrimination would run contrary to a clear Cabinet dir ective that was given to MTX in 19 82 by thi s government.

In order to ensure, Madam Speaker, that there be no doubt as to this government's commitment to there being no di sc rimina tion un der any circumstances whatsoever in the future, I've asked the Attorney-General to work with the Manitoba Human Rights Commission to prepare contract compliance legislation that that will ensure that there be no discrimination by any Crown corporation, including MTX, or any Manitoba private company insofar as its trade involvement in other countries of the world. That legislation will be drafted in the fulle st of consultation with all interested Manitobans. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, it would appear as though the Premier wants to avoid the issue in view of the fact that he has said that there is in place a Cabinet directive. He has acknowledged that it's a provincially registered company; it's owned by the taxpayers of Manitoba; it's Manitoba groups who have exp ressed concern about the allega tions of discriminatory hiring against Jews and women.

Why would he not want to clear the air and refer it to the Human Rights Commission of Manitoba to get the matter looked at thoroughly and completely and to satisfy himself, as well as the people of Manitoba, that no discriminatory hiring practices are taking place. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, as I indicated, I will be dis cussi ng this matter further with Mr. Fairweather as to appropriate measures that ought to be undertaken and all constructive suggestions will be certainly considered.

I do want to emphasize, Madam Speaker, that if in fact there is any aggrieved person or party that feels that MTX has discriminated against him or her because of their religion, or faith, or sex, that matter will be immediately referred to the Attorney-General for adjud ication by the Mani toba Human Ri ghts Commission. But what we do require is, in my view, some specific complaint, and that complaint will be dealt with expeditiously by the Manitoba Human Rights Commission. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier saying that the information that has been provided by the B'nai B'rith Human Rights League, that the responses from Mr. Plunkett, the President of MTX, Mr. Holland, the President of MTS, in which they acknowledge that 2746

Friday, 8 August, 1986 Saudi religious laws prevent certain hiring practices from taking place. Is he saying that none of these things are true and that he is satisfied that there's no reason, that all he has to do is talk to Mr. Fairweather about federal concerns and everything will be fine? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, there already has been a ruling in fact which Mr. Fairweather has referred to that the Canadian Human Rights Commission did make a find in respect to the precise nature of case that we're discussing now back in 1979. At that time they found no discrimination.

However, Madam Speaker, I am not, unlike the Leader of the Oppo sition, predetermining this matter. What is required is a specific complaint. That complaint will be referred to the Manitoba Human Rights Commission because I want to assure you, Madam Speaker, that this Manitoba Government will not tolerate any discrimination.

This government instructed, unlike the previous government, the Manitoba Telephone System and the subsidiary MTX, in 1982 that there was to be no discrimination on their part, Madam Speaker, and if there is a particular complaint, a particular grievance that is lodged with us, that matter will be dealt with expeditiously by the Manitoba Human Rights Commission. MA. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the First Minister then telling us that there is no validity to any of the concerns that have been raised by women's groups and the League for Human Rights of B'nai B'rith? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I did not indicate that at all. What I called for, Madam Speaker, and again call for, is if there is any Manitoban that comes forth or advises that he or she has been turned down in an application because he or she is not of the right faith, not of the right religion, or of the wrong sex, Madam Speaker, we will deal with that formally and strongly and expeditiously through the Manitoba Human Rights Commission. MA. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the President of MTX and senior officials at the Telephone System at MTX have acknowledged that religious law is well known to people within the system and they know that there is no need to apply because of all of these things, how could he get an appl ication that would prove and trigger an investigation? Why wouldn't he do it, given the knowledge that has already been put forward by his senior officials at MTS and MTX? Why does he need to have somebody put themselves up as a token applicant? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, that question has already been responded to.

Premiers' Conference, Edmonton - Man. Gov't position on agriculture MA. G.

FILMON: My question further for the Premier on the new topic is: In view of the fact that news reports indicate that agriculture will be a major topic at the First Min isters' Conference to be held in Edmonton on Monday and Tuesday of this coming week, in view of the fact that yesterday in question period, in response to a question by the Member for Virden, the First Minister indicated that agriculture will be a central focus of attention at that particular meeting, why has the government not requested a pair for the Minister of Agriculture to attend that First Ministers Conference in Edmonton? HON. B.

UAUSKI: There's staff going. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, that . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Agricultur e and I have found ourselves always foursquare together when it comes to agricultural policy, and I have no difficulty dealing with agricultural issues in Edmonton because I know exactly what we are going to say, the positions that we're going to take, and those positions are consistent with the positions that were taken at the Swan River Conference of the Western Premiers, Madam Speaker , when we called upon decisive action by the Ottawa Conservative Government to help rural declining communities in the west, to help family farms in Western Man itoba ; and, Mada m Speaker, I want to add this morning I believe that, in view of the decision by the Reagan administration to subsidize the sale of grain to the Soviet Union, that we ought to immediately bring about a standstill insofar as the free trade discussions are concerned between United States and Canada.

MA. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I don't wish to denegrate the knowledge of the First Minister on agriculture, but I suspect they'll be talking about more than just Black Anguses out there. My further question for the First Minister is: If that is the case, if the position of the Province of Manitoba is being put forward by the First Minister on all of these issues and all he needs is support from the staff of the Department of Agriculture, and not the Minister of Agriculture's presence, then why has he asked for the presence of the Attorney-General?

Why has he asked for the presence of the Minister of Finance? Why has he asked for the presence of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will be delighted to take the Minister of Agriculture with me because I appreciate his advice. If honourable members will agree to a pair. I'm glad now that the members across the way have indicated their support for the Minister of Agriculture, that they want the Minister of Agriculture to go to Edmonton. I understand full well, in view of the dismal performance by the Ottawa cousins insofar as agriculture is concerned.

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I know it's Friday, but I do wish the honourable members would contain themselves somewhat so we can conduct question period orderly. 2747

Friday, 8 August, 1986 The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, for once the First Minister is setting the example in the House. That's why we're so excited. MR. D. ORCHARD: It's the only time. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition has the floor. Could we hear him, please? Premiers' Conference, Edmonton - tabling of position paper MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, yes, in anticipation of the attendance of the Premier and other Ministers at the First Ministers Conference in Edmonton next week, and in anticipation of a number of significant agenda topics, I wonder if the First Minister has any position papers to table here today so that members on our side of the House will understand and know what the position of Manitoba will be on these various issues. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, before I commence that remark, I feel somewhat hurt for all the good Aberdeen Angus breeders in the Province of Manitoba and I would not want the Angus breeders in the Province of Manitoba to feel that the Leader of the Opposition doesn't appreciate their contribution to agriculture in Manitoba. They're the best breed of cattle, by the way, that exists anywhere in Canada, in my biased view. Madam Speaker, I'll be certainly prepared to table all position papers in this House, Madam Speaker. As honourable members may know, Premier Getty has asked that the position papers not be distributed.

I belie ve it is by way of agreement with the Premiers subsequent to their presentation. But I would be happy to respond to any qu es tions th e Leader of the Opposition would like to ask of me in regard to positions that will be taken respecting fiscal relationships, tax reform, trade, agriculture, or any other issue that the Leader of the Opposition would like to raise. We'll be deligh ted to certainly give him a preview of what we feel to be a responsible position on the part of the Manitoba New Democratic Party Government at the Edmonton conference.

Premiers' Conference, Edmonton - constitutional amendments MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. A MEMBER: I hope you don't look as bad as you did the last time, Howard. MADAM SPEAKER: Order! MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Premier. Could he assure members of this House and Manitobans that, in the di scussions with respect to the Constitution, the Province of Manitoba will not agree to give the Province of Quebec a veto over future consitutional changes? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will be proceeding to Alberta to listen to Premier Bourassa, to listen to the presentations that he will make. I think it's important that the Constitution indeed do include all 10 provinces, and that the present arrangement is not a satisfactory one. I have already expressed my difficulties in regard to any one of the 10 provinces having a veto. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, a further question to the Premier.

In considering the Province of Quebec's position, would he favourably consider an amendment to the Constitution which would give compensation to that province, and any other province, in lieu of provi ncia l powers tha t might be taken away by cons titutiona l amendment, a position that was supported in the fall of 1981 by a vast majority of the provinces, but which the then Prime Minister of the country, Mr. Trudeau, would not accept? Would he perhaps consider that as a solution to the constitutional impass between the Federal Province, nine provinces versus the Province of Quebec? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, we could only deal with that within a framework of equality insofar as all of Canada is concerned. I am prepared to, however, listen to, as I indicated before, the presentation by Premier Bourassa.- (Interjection)- I think it's very important, when we're dealing with the fabric of the country as a whole that we do listen to each other with respect, and that we not so fixate our minds, because of predetermined positions, that we say, I'm going to walk out of the room and not listen to you, because I've already made up my mind.

I have basic parameters that I have set out, but that does not mean that the Premiers in Edmonton will not be prepared to listen to the proposals that are made. I have my difficulties and reservations. I may want to ask some questions. I will want to do considerable listening to the proposals by the Quebec Government. Interestingly, Madam Speaker, the Prime Minister of Canada has asked the provinces to come to an agreement with Premier Bou rassa as qu ickl y as possible. Madam Speaker, I don't personally feel that this is the major issue confronting Canadians today.

I believe the major issue is that of employment, that of the economy, that of fiscal relationship, that of tax reform, that of agriculture. That is what we ought to be discussing in detail at Edmonton. That's what I intend to discuss in detail in Edmonton, because I know that is the concern of Manitobans and not constitutional issues. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, we on this side of the House have never felt that constitutional items were the No. 1 concern.

They were not during the past four years, but this government did attempt to proceed with a constitutional amendment. Therefore, Madam Speaker, I would ask the First Minister, if he is so interested in listening, will he assure the members of 2748

Friday, 8 August, 1986 this House and the people of Manitoba that he will listen to the people of Manitoba before taking any definitive positions, and he will commit himself now to holding public hearings before taking a position on proposed constitutional amendments? HON. H.

PAWLEY: What is of fund amental importance to Manitobans and to this New Democratic Party Government, though obviously it has not been important to the Opposition, by way of their example in respect to this in the last year or two when this issue has arisen, is strengthening provisions within the Constitution to ensure that there is a reduction of regional disparity across Canada; that there is the enshrinement and strengthening of equalization provisions to ensure that Canadians, whether they liv e in St.

John s, Newfoundland or in Victoria or in Shamattawa, have the opportunity to enjoy the same kind of public services at comparable tax levels regardless of where they live in Canada. That provision at the present time is too weak in order to ensure that the Federal Government responds and complies with that provision. Madam Speaker, you can be sure, when it comes to the Constitution, we will consider tha t of extreme importance in the discussion in Edmonton. Sales tax - Saskatchewan ads re MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the First Minister. The Minister of Finance has unde rtaken, on the request of several members of this Hous e, in addition to businessmen in the Roblin- Russell area, to study the adverse effects of the decreases in sales taxes in Saskatchewan on Manitoba businesses. Will the Premier undertake to speak at the meeting of First Ministers with Premier Devine of Saskatchewan regarding the decidedly un friendly advert ising being placed in Manitoba newspapers, urging Manitobans to shop Saskatchewan because of the tax advantages of that province? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I would concur that the kind of advertising that the Devine Government is undertaking is not the type of advertising that certainly would be done by the Manitoba Government, or most governments in Canada, because we do have respect for peoples in different parts of this country, and we certainly do not respect the kind of advertising that has been done in the Province of Saskatchewan. I suspect it is a desperate effort on the part of Premier Devine to prop up failing political fortunes on the eve of a provincial election. Northern Transportation Study MRS. S.

CARS TAIRS: I have a new question, please, to the Minister of Highways. The ERDA Sub-Agreement on Transportation resulted in a Northern Transportation Study which began in June of 19 85. Can the Minister explain to the House what has happened to this study and what has happened to the report which was due to be available in March of 1986? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Madam Speaker , as one of the initiatives under the Transportation Agreement, a Northern Transportation Study was initiated between the Federal and Provincia l Governments.

It was implemented by the Provincial Government. Most of the work was done in-house by the Transportation Division. The first drafts of that report have been completed by the staff and we are now at a point where we will be discussing the contents of this with the communities, particularly in the area of the east side of Lake Winnipeg, which was the area of concentration for this particular study, to look at alternatives to ensure all-weather, all year-round transportation improvements to those communities. Communities in the area have asked for a number of improvements.

They are looking for all-weather roads which cost hundreds of millions of dollars; they've asked for improvements in airports and, of course, that is an area where the Federal Government has done very little over the years. It has placed that burden on the backs of the province. They have looked at other options, such as, air transportation and of course technology, new technology, developing technology such as Hovercraft. Even th ough the mem bers will chortle opposite about the use of Hovercraft, it's been many years that the technology has been in place.

There is a need to look at what the possibilities are for use in Northern Manitoba and that is one of the areas we're going to be looking at. But all of these will be explored, Madam Speaker, and to the Member for River Heights, these will be explored and discussed with the communities in question to look at some of the options and then chart a course of action. MRS. S. CAR STAIRS: I'm pleased to hear that the Northern communities now will be consulted, but can the Minister tell me why they have not been consulted while the preliminary study was being conducted? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, of course the number of communities and parties involved, the more complicated it is to undertake the initial gathering of information. However, the Member for River Heights is wrong when she suggested they have not been a part. They have indeed been consulted along the way through visits and staff, and through the tribal councils and the Southeast Development Council. So there has been some consultation in developing the initial data that will now be taken forward, taken out to the communities for more in-depth consultation but, of course, we had to get that information together.

That information was gathered, in consultation with those communitie s, however limited, and there will be more extensive consultation at this point. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supplemen tary. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister if he would please phone those very groups that he says has been consulted with and ask them if they have had any consultation? 2749

Friday, 8 August, 1986 Standard Aero Engines - employment re contract MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Indus try. I wonder if the Minister of Industry could inform the House as to how many jobs will be provided in Manitoba by the $4.5 million contract that Standard Aero Engine has just received. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Industry, Trade and Technology. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I'll take that question as notice.

Standard Aero Engines - Government policy re Manitoba Government accepting contracts MR. F. JOHNSTON: A supplementary, Madam Speaker. The report today that there is a group in Manitoba who are opposed to a Manitoba company, Standard Aero Engines, accepting this contract, or quoting on that type of contract. The aerospace industry is one of our largest industries and I wonder if the Minister could inform the House what his opinion is on Manitoba companies quoting on these contracts; or not his opinion, Madam Speaker, what is the policy of the department? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Obviously the policy of the department is that Manitoba companies are, and are entitled to quote on any contracts. They are in no different a position than any other Canadian corporation and I would - in terms of employment, of course, this month we have employment in Manitoba which is - we have 12, 000 more people working in Manitoba today than we had a year ago. That's a tremendous increase in employment in this province; it's an excellent increase. Air transportation tax - reviewing of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S.

ASHTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of the Department of Transportation and it's in regard to the air transportation tax that is paid by air travellers which is based on the fare paid. This tax places an unfair burden on residents in Northern communities who have to rely heavily on air transportation. Earlier this year the Minister joined with the Allia nce of Canadian Travel Associations of Manitoba and the Winnipeg Labour Council in calling for a two-tier flat-rate tax.

I'd like to ask the Minister what response, if any, he has received from the Federal Government in regard to this proposal? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Highways and Transportation. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, the Member for Thompson is correct that there is an unfair transportation tax that has existed in this country; a very small tax, as early as 1974. But it has increased dramatically over the last ten years, particularly by the Federal Tory Government in Ottawa, the last couple of years where they've increased it to a maximum of $50 - 10 percent of the fare that is charged.

This affects the Northern remote communities to a greater degree, to a disproportionate degree, as well as major regions of the province that are geographically major centres that are geographically spread at great distances. That means that those areas in the eastern areas of the country that are closer together, Madam Speaker, are not paying as heavily a tax as those in western areas of this country and remote areas.

So we have asked, Madam Speaker, the Federal Minister to review that tax with a view to putting in place a flat tax that would be fair and would be charged the same for all areas of this country - $12.50 for each trip rather than the $50 that many of our Northern remote areas are now currently paying. They have not responded to this, Madam Speaker, in answer to the question that was made by the Member for Thompson and we intend to follow up on that . . . Airports - federal cutbacks MR. S. ASHTON: I have one supplementa ry, Madam Speaker.

In view of the fact that the Federal Government has also apparently not responded to the concerns about cutba cks in airport funding in Thompson, Brandon, and I understand Dauphin as well, I'd like to ask the Minister for his assurance that he will also continue to press them for action on these unfair cutbacks. HON. J. PLOHMAN: My colleague is applauding a little bit early.

The fact is that these increases, Madam Speaker, in the transportation tax to provide for the airports and the facilities have come at a time when the re's dramatic decreases and cutbacks in air transportation subsidies to the communi ties and airports in this province.

Dauphin, Thompson, Brandon are examples where there have been severe cutbacks and we're doing an analysis of those cutbacks at the present ti1.1e, Madam Speaker, to get a global picture of what is happening here in Manitoba, and we intend to take that directly back to the Federal Minister, John Crosbie, and bring this to his attention so that there will not be this kind of reduction in subsidies for airports that will affect safety in this province. MADAM SP EAKER: May I remind Honourable Ministers that answers to questions should be brief and should not be speeches. The Honourable Member for Arthur.

Premiers' Conference, Edmonton - free trade with U.S. MR. J. DOWNEY: I have a question for the First Minister, following on his answer to my Leader, Madam Speaker. In view of the Premier's comments that he would be recommending, in retaliation of the United States subsidy on wheat to be sold to the Soviet Union, that we should cut off immediately free trade negotiations 2750

Friday, 8 August, 1986 with the United States, is he prepared to back that up and take the lead and freeze all hydro sales and stop any proposals to sell Manitoba hydro until in fact there's some commitment to stop doing that? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I don't know where the Member for Arthur was when I answered the question. I referred to the negotiation of th e free trade discussions presently under way. I did not say, all trade with the United States. Maybe the Member for Arthur wasn't present when I gave my answer earlier. MR. J.

DOWNEY: I was present, Madam Speaker, and I apologize if I misheard the First Minister. The question is: Is he prepared to take that kind of action on behalf of the farmers of this country? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , I'm not prepared to recommend to the Prime Minister of Canada the proposal from the Member for Arthur that we cease all trade with the United States because of what has happened, vis-a-vis the US-Soviet Union deal.

I couldn't think of anything more lud icrous, and would be considered lud icrous by the farmers of this country that also feel the importance of trade with all countries of the world, including the United States. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speak er, I'm not going to let the First Minister leave those kind of comments on the record, that I had made those. Actually it was a question directly to him as to whether or not he would be recommending, and following along with the hydro negotiations coming to a halt.

Is he prepared to go that far to cease any further hydro negotiations with the United States until the Americans change their policy as far as supporting the sale of wheat to the Soviet Union? HON. H. PAWLEY: We have some instruments in the House that might assist honourable members in hearing the answers to questions so they wouldn't be as badly misinformed as the Member for Arthur is, in regard to the answers that I have clearly articulated. Child Care Centres - expansion of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Community Services. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House if the Before Noon Hour and After School child care centres have been notified whether or not they will be receiving extra spaces. MADAM SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mini ster of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: I understand the expansions have been - I know they've been authorized by me and I presume the letters are on their way. MRS. G. HAMMOND: A supplementary to the same Minister.

In light of the fact that the Minister said that this information would be at the day care centres by the end of July, during her Estimates, I wonder if the Minister could ask them to phone the centres and give them this information. School will be starting, in some cases, before September and it's vital that the parents and the centres know whether they can have children in those day care centres. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, phone response from the day care operators is certainly available to any centre. Lundar, Manitoba - water and sewer program MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I direct a question to the Honourable First Minister. The First Minister will recall that, just previous to the last election, he was present at a special ceremony feat uring Premier Howard Pawley and Agriculture Minister Bill Uruski signing the agreement with the R.M. of Caldwell with respect to a water and sewage program that the community is looking forward to; "all systems go and all we need is a little bit of warm weather in the Spring," the Premier was quoted, Madam Speaker.

You can imagine, Madam Speaker, the dismay of the good people of Lundar when they learned later on, after the election, that their program was put off. My question to the First Minister is: How has he responded to the letters from the Lundar Chamber of Commerce, the Rural Municipality of Caldwell, to explain this duplicity on the part of this government and its Ministers?

Madam Speaker, the First Minister will particularly remember the occasion because I believe it was coincidental to the celebration of his birthday and we hired the Sportsman's Inn and invited some 35 or 40 people in to enjoy the birthday of the Premier on that particular occasion, because the good people of Lundar were, of course, very happy about the agreement that was being signed. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I want to indicate, when the Premier of this Province makes a commitment, he keeps it; and I, as one of his Ministers, who have the responsibility of carrying out the delivery of the program of the Water Services Board, intend to keep that commitment to the community of Lundar. Madam Speaker, I think honourable members and the Member for Lakeside asked for how this matter has been responded to.

I wish to indicate to my honourable friend that I have met with the Reeve of Caldwell Municipality and whole issue of expenditures under the Water Services Board have been changed a year ago, and they were changed to try and accommodate as many communities as possible by 2751

Friday, 8 August, 1986 using the same procedures, or similar procedures, that we use under Highways and Transportation, and that is, committing projects more than one time, the extended budget because, over the 15 years of the program, practically in every year of the program, the entire budget was not utilized because of many, many measures, whether it be a dispute within a community, whether it be tendering problems or there'd be contract problems or soil problems, those projects were not started.

Lundar and a number of other communities have also been given the commitment that in the event that one of the projects in other communities that has not been started this year, Lundar will be scheduled into this year's construction and a program may be even started in the 1986 construction season. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I'm just trying to get from that long answer, will construction proceed on that program this summer? Spring has come and gone, but will it start this summer? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I've indicated to my honourable friend that it is possible that it may be constructed this year; it may begin. If in fact some other projects that are in that list of projects that may not be proceeded with, Lund ar will be one of those communities where a project may begin. If it is not, it will be scheduled for next construction season. MR. H. ENNS: Ma dam Sp eak er, ju st one final supplementary question to the First Minister.

I would like to hear it from the First Minister, that it certainly was, to get back to one, Harry J . . .. that Lundar doesn't make it MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, it's the intention to deal with condolence motions today but previous to doing that, I'd like to indicate some House Business which has been agreed to between the government and membe rs opposite and then also call Second Readings on the two bills that are slated for Second Read ing today, and then go into the condolence motions.

First I'd like to confirm that on August 12 , Tuesday, the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources will be considering Manitoba Telephone System and, as well, at ten o'clock, at the same time, the Standing Committee on Economic Development will be considering bills that have been referred to it. On Thursday, August 14 , the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders at ten o'clock in the morning will be considering bills referred to it.

At eight o'clock in the evening, by leave, running concurrently with the Committees of Supply considering Estimates, the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs will be considering bills referred to it. As well, on Monday, August 11 , by leave, the Rules Committee will be meeting running concurrently with the Committees of Supply considering the Estimates. I believe that takes care of all the House Business for next week in respect to the Committees.

I also want to indicate that, as the weeks go on, we will be indicating, hopefully a week in advance, or at least a few days in advance what standing committees will be meeting to consider the bills referred to it so that the individuals of the public have an opportunity to prepare themselves for those committees. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, following on the Government House Leader's commitment to hold the Public Utilities hearing on MTS on Tuesday, has he had discussions with his Minister responsible for MTS to see whether today I will be provided with the information on the Cezar Indu stry business plan, on the financial statements of SADL, the 50-50 company in Saudi Arabia; the first piece of information committed some th ree weeks ago and the SADL 50-50 fina ncial statements committed two years ago. Will those be available today? MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mi nister responsible for MTS. HON. A.

MACKLING: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have yet to receive that information. I am anticipating receiving it sometime today. As soon as I have it, the information that I receive, I will make it available. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order, order please. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: As I indic ated earl ier, Madam Speaker, can you please call Second Readings as they appear in the Order Paper? SECOND READING BILL NO. 19 - THE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT (TAXATION) ACT

(1986) HON. E. KOSTYRA presented Bill 19, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act ( 1986); Loi de 1986 modifiant la legislation relative a la fiscalite, for Second Reading. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to introduce for Second Reading Bill No. 19, which provides the legislative authority for tax changes announced in the Manitoba Budget of May 22, 19 86. 2752

Friday, 8 August, 1986 The bill also includes a numb er of technical changes, particularly to The Income Tax Act, required as a result of federal income tax changes. As honourable members are aware, our recent Budget provides for the maintenance and expansion of essential services, for additional support to the farm community and for reduction of the deficit, all at a time when direct federal payments, as a percentage of provincial revenues, are dropping. We've been able to introduce these measures, Madam Speaker, because the Manitoba economy is strong and our own source revenues have grown.

Maintaining and expanding programs in critical areas such as health and education mean that some tax increases must be implemented. However, I would like to remind members that there will be no increases in personal income tax, sales taxes or taxes affecting small businesses and farmers. I would also like to remind members that over the last two years, changes at the federal level have shifted taxation away from corporations and high income earners onto middle income tax individuals.

Based on projections to 19 91, taxes payable shift by $12.7 billion from large businesses to ordinary taxpayers as a result of measures introduced by the Federal Government since November 1984. This is not the approach our government has taken. In fact, one of the technical changes to The Income Tax Act proposed in this bill will lessen the impact of the 1985 Federal Budget on low income Manitobans. Since 1984, the Manitoba tax reduction has been directly linked to the federal low income tax reduction.

When the Federal Government abolished its low income tax reduction effective for 1986, the Manitoba reduction was automatically abolished as well. In order to reduce the impact of that measure on the lowest income Manitobans, the Manitoba tax reduction for '86 and subsequent years will be set at the lesser of Manitoba tax otherwise payable, or $100 minus 5 percent of taxable income. This bill will also authori ze an inc rease in the corporation capital tax rate from .2 percent to .3 percent, the same rate as Ontario, and lower than that of Quebec and Saskatchewan.

This tax applies to corporations with taxable paid-up capital of $1 million or more. Madam Speaker, only some 4,000 out of approximately 40,000 registered corporations in this province pay capital tax. (Mr. Deputy Speaker, M. Dolin, in the Chair) This bill will also authorize a levying of a special corporate capital tax rate on banks, increasing the rate from the current 1. 9 percent to 3 percent in the 1986 taxation year. This new rate is the same as that applied in our neighbouring province of Saskatchewan.

Trust and loan companies will also have their rate increased from .6 percent to .9 percent, the same magnitude as the bank increase. I would also like to emphasize to all members that credit unions and caisses populaires are presently exempt from the corporation capital tax and will continue to be. The income tax rate on large businesses, that is corporations active with a business income in excess of $200,000, or non-active business income, is increased from 16 percent to 17 percent, to become equal to the rate levied in Saskatchewan.

This rate is retroactive to January 1, 19 86 and will affect fewer than 15 percent of Manitoba's taxable corporations. Those businesses with active business income less than $200,000 will not be affected and will continue to be taxed at the low business rate of 10 percent. Also contained in this bill is a 1- cent increase in the tobacco tax, raising the rate from 3. 1 cent to 4. 1 cent per cigarette. Rates on other packaged tobacco products will be increased proportionately. There are two other minor tax increases involving motive fuel which may impact on individuals.

Since the introduction of propane as a motive fuel a few years ago, safety inspections have been carried out to ensure that propane powered vehicles are safe to operate. In order to defray the cost of inspecting these vehicles, which has risen, the tax on motive fuel propane will be increased by .5 cent, raising the affective rate from 4.8 cents to 5.3 cents per litre. Also, I introduced a motive fuel tax which would be charged on compressed natural gas used in all internal combustion engines in lieu of taxation under The Revenue Act '64. This is not a charge on heating fuels consumed in homes or businesses.

It is a charge on natural gas used as a compressor fuel in Manitoba by a common carrier or in vehicles using natural gas as an alternative to gasoline. This compressor fuel tax is analogous to the locomotive fuel taxes levied in Alberta and most other provinces and charged to railways transporting goods across those provinces. This tax on motive fuel, at 7 cents per kilogram, is preferential on an energy equivalent basis in relation to taxes on other motive fuels. Bill 19 also includes a number of minor administrative amendments to The Income Tax Act which are being made at the request of the Federal Government.

I would also like to point out that a major change to the tax discounting provisions under The Manitoba Income Tax Act comes about as a result of changes to The Federal Tax Rebating Discounts Act. I have, Mr. Deputy Speaker, given copies of the detailed notes for use in committee to the Opposition House Critic. I would therefore recommend this bill to members. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Deputy Speaker , I move, seconded by the Member for Arthur that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL NO. 23 - THE CHARTER COMPLIANCE STATUTE AMENDMENT ACT, 1986 HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 23, The Charter Compliance Statute Amendment Act (19 86); Loi de 19 86 modifia nt diverses dispositions legislatives afin d'assurer le respect de la Charte, for Second Reading. MOTION presented. 2753

Friday, 8 August, 1986 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney­ General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Deputy Speaker,

Section 8 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states: Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure. Last year, the government passed Bill 62, the first major effort, anywhere in fact, to bring provincial statutes into line with the requirements of Charter

Section 8. This year's legislation will continue the principles developed in Bill 62 and, where required, will develop new principles respecting certain administrative powers. The bill has been pre ceded by thorough consultation with all affected departments and agencies. I should say here, parenthetically, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that we are following decisions of the Supreme Court in the Southam case and have our own Court of Appeal, and another case in applying

Section 8. The bill is "omnibus", that is, it amends a number of provincial statutes in general. The amendments fall into the following categories: and in order to save time, I'll just mention these very briefly. 1. Animal and Plant Diseases - These statutes give administrators the power to control disease by seizing and disposing of diseased plants or animals. The amendments will assure that the seizure powers are exercised on reasonable and probable grounds. In certain non-emergency cases, adminis trators will require a warrant to exercise their statutory authority. 2.

Protection of Crown Lands - These statutes em power government officials to protect against dangerous situations or illegal activities on Crown lands. Remedial powers include, for example, the removal from Crown land of property through which the illegal or dangerous activity is occurring. The amendments will assure that the powers are exercised only to the extent and only for the time necessary to terminate the activity. 3.

Enforcement of Regulatory and Penal Statutes - These amendments will affect enforcement powers in various departments, for example, Agriculture (in terms of regulating the production, distribution and marketing of agricultural products), and Natural Resources (in terms of controlling the illegal harvesting of wild rice, wildlife and Crown timber).

Enforcement powers dealt with in the bill include some or all of the following as necessary within the context of each statute: reasonable routine inspections as part of a regulatory scheme; a general warrant requirement to enter property and seize evidence of a suspected offence; so that it no longer will be possible to do it without a warant in those circumstances; seizure without warrant where an enforcement officer, acting in the course and scope of duty, discovers an offence in progress; because we must while making sure that searches and seizures are reasonable, not unduly restrict enforcement of vital regulatory provisions; seizure without warrant from a vehicle or other conveyance where an offence is reasonably suspected and it is impracticable to obtain a warrant; by the very nature of some of the statutes we're dealing with they take place in remote areas, Crown lands, in the bush.

You can't say well, just wait here for a moment, I'll go get a warrant; but the enforcing officer will have to have reasonable grounds for believing that an offence has been or is being committed in order to exercise those powers; storage and disp osition of seized products, implements, conveyances and other evidence of offences; forfeiture or return of seized items as appropriate. There are matters dealing with the Distress of Alleged Debts referred to in the notes. I'm not going to read all my notes; the opposition has copies. There are matters of priority to be dealt with today.

I just want to conclude by advising the House that the process of The Charter Compliance is ongoing and in subsequent sessions we will see more omnibus legislation dealing with search and seizure powers in other provincial legislations and we will be monitoring court decisions in this area. We will also be continuing with The Charter Compliance process with respect to

Section 15 and some major bills may be expected in the ensuing sessions of the House. I've already advised members of the House through a press release when this bill was distributed, of some actions that had been taken through regulation, for example, with respect to Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation regulations. I won't repeat those now. I simply want to conclude by advising the House with respect to the Equality Rights provisions of the Charter, that work is under way on major reforms to Family Property and Maintenance laws.

Excellent work has been done both by the Law Reform Commission and by the Charter of Rights Coalition. We are presently working to mesh the proposals and I hope to be able to bring either major revisions to existing statutes forward in the next session in that area, or if at all possible a major restructuring of family law into two basic statutes. With those words of explanation of the Charter Compl iance process and of this

part icular bill, I commend the bill to the House. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Sturgeon Creek that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MOTIONS OF CONDOLENCE MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Minister of Community Services: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Donald W.

Craik, who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. 2754

Friday, 8 August, 1986 HON. H. PAWLEY: I'd like to acknowledge an oversight and I apolog ize for this. I don't know whether procedurely we can work it, but rather than saying by the Minister of Community Services, I would like to have it seconded by the Leader of the Opposition. (Agreed, by leave) Madam Speaker, it is not quite one year that we lost a respected Manitoban. Don Craik was elected to the Manitoba Legislature in 19 66, re-elected again in 1967, 19 69, 1973 and 19 77 as a Member of the Legislative Assembly for the Constituency of Riel.

At different times, he held the portfolio of Deputy Premier, Minister of Finance, Minister of Energy and Mines, Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. At one time he was also the Minister of Education and the Acting Leader of the Opposition. Upon his defeat in 1981 and his decision that he would no longer take a role as a candidate, he remained active in the political life of the province in the party of his choosing, both at the provincial and at the federal level.

At the time of his death, he was Chairman of the Progressive Conservative Manitoba Fund, President of the Northwest Consultatory Associates, Chairman of the Board of Fine Line Communications Limited. Those who recall and were present during the service of Don Craik in this Legislature remember the honesty and th e integrity of Don Craik. Even th ose who disagreed with him respected Don Craik's commitment to integrity and to the pursuit of honesty, his devotion to family. I had the utmost respect also for Don Craik on another basis.

I recall frequently running into Don Craik very late at night or. on weekends, often Sundays, working in this building especially during the period that he served as Minister of Finance and Deputy Premier, a workaholic. Never was there a task that was too great for him to undertake. Never was there a situation by which he didn't have time to put all his efforts and all his energies into the capacities that he was requested to serve. I think Don Craik probably worked as hard as any other two or three individuals could have worked during that period of time, for his commitment to the public service of Manitoba.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MA. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I begin by thanking the Premier for the honour of seconding the Motion of Condolence on behalf of Don Craik to his wife and family. Don, as many know, was a valued and close friend of mine, and someone who I looked up to as a role model in many senses. Don and I shared a number of common backgrounds as professional engineers, both having graduated with Masters' Degrees, as having served as consultants and as businessmen in our working careers before ending up being here in the Legislature.

He was also a good friend to many of us, and of course, a colleague both in caucus and in Cabinet. Don, as I think has been alluded to by the Premier, was in addition to being an extremely capable person, a person who worked very long and very hard on behalf of the people of his constituency and the people of Manitoba. He relished the debate in this Chamber. He was a very fiercely partisan individual, as much as you would ever find in this Chamber. I think that the documents of the history of the debate in Hansard will show some of the most partisan exchanges involving Don Craik in the Seventies.

He asked no quarter, and he gave none. There's no question about that when you think about Don. He believed firmly in the principles and the convictions that he carried, and he didn't hesitate to state them and to get up to defend them at any point in time, both here or on any public platform. But he was an extremely capable individual, both intellectually and I think in terms of the broad experience that he brought to the Chamber in arriving here as a member and participating as a member, he not only had his academic background.

My first recollections of Don were as a professor at the University of Manitoba Faculty of Engineering. He was a student advisor at the time that I was on student council. Even in those days, he was already beginning his other public service interest as a member of the school board in St. Vital. So he certainly was active in all of his working life, not only in the academic side but he later was a very successful consultant. Indeed as the Premier has indicated, his business interests were ones in which he was extremely successful. But beyond that, he served his community.

He was on the board of his church and various other community boards. After leaving public office, he served our party in a number of different capacities, latterly of course as the Chairman of P.C. Manitoba Fund. In every one of these activities, Don threw himself into the activity with all the vigour and energy that he could. He was very enthusiastic about all the causes that he pursued, and he always had time to do the little extras, that involved many times working the extra hours in the evening or on the weekends. He was always prepared to give whatever time was necessary to do the job well.

Of course, I think it's important to mention the role that Shirley played in all of this, because she was a constant companion, not only as a participant in the family business activities but certainly as a very valued adviser of Don's and participating in all of the public functions. All of us knew her as a friend and somebody who had a great deal to offer in the course of Don's political commitments. Despite all of the time that we mentioned here, I for one can attest to the significant quality time that he spent, along with Shirley, with his daughters, Judy, Polly and Donna.

This again is a dimension of the individual that the public doesn't always appreciate. He did spend quality time with his family and as a result he had a family of which he could be extremely proud. Obviously, they had a father of whom they could be very proud. So all of us have lost a friend. I certainly have lost a mentor and, in many ways, a partner in the many activities that we share.

So I want to, on behalf of my wife and family and his many friends that he has throughout the province, the many people who admired him, who supported him, who worked with him, and who have suffered the great loss that I have and many of us have, I want to extend to Shirley, to Judy, to Polly and to Donna both condolences and the recognition that all of the great achievements and the special qualities that Don displa yed in his life, a life that was 2755

Friday, 8 August, 1986 all too short, will live on beyond him. All of us recognize them and will certainly remember and remember him well and fondly as the years go by. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I also would like to pay tribute to the late Donald Craik, who served in this House from 1966 until 19 81. I first met Don when he was Chairman of the St. Vital School Division. He served on that board until he was elected in 1964 in the House, and was instrumental in directing our school system in St. Vital to achieve the high standards it holds there today.

During Don's tenure, as previously mentioned, in government as the Member for Riel, he was Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, the Min ister of Education and Minister of Finance. He was responsible for The Public Libraries Act, The Manitoba Hydro Act, the Manitoba Forestry Re,,.:u rces Ltd., the Manitoba Energy Council, and the Man itoba Dev elopment Corporation. He was Chairman of the Treasury Board and Chairman of the Cabinet Committee on Economic Development and, of course, we all know that Don was also our Deputy Premier.

I always found, and I think everybody did find that Don was always open and frank with his dealings in this House. Members on both sides of the House respected him as a forthright politician who was very deli berate in his actions and paid attention to every detail in formulating government policy. His door, I know in my particular constituency, was always open to the constituents. When Don passed away, I took great pride in honouring Donald by naming a street "Donald Craik Cove" which is now in the constituency of Riel. I take greater pride in the fact that I now represent Don's former seat, Riel.

I only hope, to his family and to his constituents, that I'll be able to serve all these people in Riel as well as the Honourable Donald W. Craik. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I'm very pleased to be able to rise and pay tribute to the memory of a very talented and ded icated individual and, I supp ose, like other members, we have numerous reasons to rise and pay tribute to a man who was admired and respected, I think, by all of Manitoba and, as the Leader of the Opposition has indicated and some of his colleagues I'm sure will, he was held up as a model, both in terms of an individual and in terms of a politician. He was actively involved in politics and in public life for more than two decades and during that time he achieved a great deal.

In addition to being the MLA for his area for a lengthy period of time, from 1966 to 19 81, he also served the province, as has been mentioned, as Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, the Minister of Education and, latterly, as the Minister of Finance, Minister responsible for major undertakings in the province, Manitoba Hydro and Manfor.

I suppose the real mark of a politician, a Minister and a government official, a public leader, is the degree to which he earns respect, not only of his colleagues and of those with whom he works, the departmental staff, but also the mark he leaves and the impression he leaves with the public. I don't think anyone would disagree with the statement that Donald Craik left a good impression. He was considered an honourable and honest man, a forthright man and one who, while taking his work seriously, was compassionate, open and willing to listen.

I suppose that one always looks for new adjectives to describe the exceptional person and I think everyone here would recognize Donald Craik as an exceptional person and that you could take all of the adjectives and use them, in one context or another, with the man Donald Craik; but I think, if my reading of the man is anything, the adjectives he would find most satisfying are that he was a man of vision and yet one of common sense, and it's an interesting mix. I suppose it means the ability to see what needs to be done and, at the same time, approach it in a practical and common sense way.

It seems to me that all of the undertakings this man undertook were approached in that way. In my view certainly, Donald Craik had an equal mix of vision and common sense. I suppose, like many people here, I have my own reasons for wanting to pay tribute. Donald Craik and I had some things in common. Donald was born and raised in Baldur, Manitoba; took his high school education in Baldur and, I'm proud to say, was related to me. Donald Craik was my second cousin.

I remember, in my final years of high school, being extremely proud of the fact that Donald Craik was the Minister of Education and, certainly in my youth, respected and admired the fact that he, a relative, someone known to me, could hold that office and do the office such dignity. So my reasons are many. He was a dedicated public servant, a devoted husand and father and, more importantly, to the average Manitoban, a fine individual. I hope that our words of praise and recognition help to sustain the memory of the man for his family and for Manitobans who knew and loved him.

Their loss, clearly, was our loss as a society and I'm certain that history will record his contributions. We will all miss him. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I rise to speak to the Condolence Motion of Don Craik and to offer to his wife Shirley and family, our deepest sympathy from family and constituents. I want to say, Madam Speaker, that my memories of Don Craik are very vivid. Don Craik, in my estimation, took the lead to fiscal integrity and leadership in trying to restore the kind of fiscal policies that would better this province.

He had the vision and took on the responsibility of some of the major projects which would have led, given Manitoba a bright, economic future, and was proceeding with that heavy load to put them in place and to do it with great pride and dignity. His ability to put together those types of things and to be able to keep the proper perspective, to keep his job as the Deputy Premier when the Premier of our 2756

Friday, 8 August, 1986 province was working heavily , heavily involv ed in constitutional matters, is again another credit to that individual. I particularly want to say today, Madam Speak er, that as Don Craik, the leader of major projects, it was probably when there was so much noise or a lot of perception publicly about some form of activities in which I was involved, that the night before the public announcement of Alcan was made, Don Craik phoned me and asked me if I owned property in the Interlake area. I said, yes, that some years ago I had purchased it.

He said there could well be some public concern over it, even though the property was not within the Alcan site, but in fact could well be perceived. Don stood by me during those times. He was very supp ortive; he knew that I had done no wrong. I want the record to clearly show that, that Don Craik was truly a friend and a committed person. I as well want to, Madam Speaker, say that my last opportunity with Don was again another situation which was unfortunate and we'll be speaking further to that, was at the funeral of Lloyd Hyde, approximately one week before Don passed away.

We had a good evening in Portage la Prairie; we went out for dinner and we had some good friendly jibes and, lo and behold, a week later, I was doing some work and my wife, Linda, proceeded to come and gi ve me the bad news, extremely shocking. He will be missed, not only by the Legislature but by the people of Manitoba because he truly was a national figure in his activities and was recognized as such. With those comments, Madam Speaker, I would like to support this Motion of Condolence to Shirley and the family and wish them well in the future. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona.

HON. yt PARASIUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I certainly want to rise and join the others in paying tribute to the memory of Don Craik, both on behalf of myself and my wife. I had to be out of town when his funeral service was held last year, on government business, and I regretted not being able to be present at his service. My wife attended and told me that the music at that funeral, especially the harpist, made that funeral one of the most beautiful she had ever attended.

I got to know Don Craik, and his wife Shirley and his daughters, when I ran against him, unsuccessfully, I might add, in 19 73, in the constituency of Riel. Campaigns are tough grinds; they're tough on the candidate but they're also tough on the family. We'd bump into each other throughout the campaign and I recognized the very vital role that his family played, he played with his family, both in politics and in life at large; not unlike the type of relationship that I have with mine, with my wife. That campaign was a very clean campaign. We stayed in contact from time to time with his family since that time.

He then went and played a very important role, I believe, within the Conservative Party, leading to its re­ election as government. I think he played a very vital role in the party when it was in opposition, and he certainly played a very major role as part of the Lyon Government from 19 77 to 19 81. As the Leader of the Opposition has indicated, he was partisan, he was tough. He gave no quarter and asked for none himself. At the same time, outside the House, he would put that away.

I can recall, after I had succeeded him in the portfolio of Energy and Mines and the portfolio of the Minister responsible for Hydro, going off on a winter vacation and being on the same plane, both going to the vacation and coming back, as Don, and I did talk about life after policitics and we talked about the substantive issues of the day, which frankly were the long-term resource devel opments. We talked about them substanti vely. We talked about them in the sense that he was hopeful there would be long-term successful resource development for this province, because he cared very much about that.

That is one very solid memory I have and we did have a very good discussion about what the potentials and possibilities and problems and difficulties in developing resources in a province like Manitoba are. I also indicated that I had moved into his portfolio of Energy and Mines, the Minister responsible for Hydro development, when the government changed in 198 1, and I moved into the office that he occupied. No matter how one tries to clean out an office, there are always vestiges of the personality of the person who occupied it before you.

I know he was very, very interested in physical fitness because he did know he had a heart condition. I would open up the little fridge and there would be little cubes of cheese because he was very careful about his diet, something that I probably should have paid somewhat more attention to, occupying the same office. He got along very well with the staff. I think he cared very much about this province.

I think at the same time, he did have a vision of what the future could hold for this province, and for that, I certainly want to add my respects to the memory of Don Craik, and to also indicate to his family that I recognize that they had played a major role in that continuing memory. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I truly feel honoured to be able to get up and say a few words about a real friend, Don Craik. I refer to him as Don.

When I came into the Legislature in 19 69 and he had preceded me by a few years, I met a fellow who just loved life and loved doing what he was doing. He enjoyed his community work to the point that it did probably contribute to maybe some of his health problems, because he never slowed down. When there was something to be done, Don was there to do it. My wife and Don and Shirley and many of us here spent some wonderful hours together. We always enjoyed a sense of humour that many people didn't realize was there.

You know you'd be into a conversation and you'd have something come from Don Craik that would just break up the whole party in a way that only Don Craik could do it. Don was the type of person that when we sat around, a group of us, trying to discuss something and he wasn't 2757

Friday, 8 August, 1986 there, we usually ended up by saying, let's find out what Don thinks about this because we regarded his experience and his straightforwardness very highly. He left to his family, his wife, Shirley and his daughters, Judy, Polly and Donna, the same type of attitude towards life. They all participate in their community and they're all hardworking straightforward people who are a pleasure to be around. Don left them that and I'm sure that they are very honoured to be able to carry on some of the traditions that he has carried on because they're very proud of his accomplishments.

I'd like to say that it's been a pleasure in my life being a friend of Don Craik and Don Craik's family and we wish them all the deepest sympathy and well in the future. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, I, too am privileged to add a few words to the Condolence Motion before us. Don Craik and I came into this Legislature together in the year of 1966. I sometimes refer to that as the "Class of '66," which I believe brought a number of individuals into this Chamber that proceeded to excel in the role of public service.

Madam Speaker, the public record, private record of Don Craik has been put on the record. I want to say just a few more things about his personality. Those of us tha t entered politics, particularly on the Progressive Conservative side in that year in '66, perhaps were not aware of the kind of turbulent years we would experience. It was within a very short year that Don Craik and others of the then Roblin team aggressively and vigorously attempted to make our then leader and Premier, the Honourable Duff Roblin, a national leader and Prime Minister.

I suppose it was during that national campaign in Toronto that I really got to know Don Craik a little better on a personal basis, both of us in having accepted specific assignments in that great undertaking of being involved in a National Leadership Convention. We then, of course, came back to Manitoba and regrettably Mr.

Roblin not making it, but coming a close second to face our own leadership battles here in Manitoba, and really that was an aspect of Don Craik throughout his political involvement, to be not only doing what was expected of him as a Member for Riel, as a Cabinet Minister - I was privileged to serve in two administrations with him - the Weir admin istration and the Sterling Lyon administration - but then that greater role that Don threw so much vitality and vigor into the workings of the political party of his choice.

We then had to re-examine our position in opposition for a number of years, and as already has been alluded to, certainly Don played a major role in making it possible for the party of his choice to once again form government in 1977. Throughout all this, Don Craik had one special teacher I suppose that endeared himself to so many throughout Manitoba. Although Mr.

Donald Craik was very much an urban person, his academic life, his business life representing very much an urban seat in this Legislature, but it was, I suppose his original roots dating back to Baldur that always made Don Craik very comfortable and at ease with rural Manitobans. I regard that as one of Don Craik's particular strengths and abilities that sustained him so successfully in the business of politics where dealing with people, after all, is what it's all about. I've lost a good friend, a person I have often had the opportunity of sharing confidences wit h.

The Province of Manitoba has lost prematurely a good man and my condolen ces to the family are certainly expressed with every emotion, every heartfelt feeling that I can muster at this particular time. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to join with colleagues on both sides of the House to offer to Shirley and family the sincerest condolences of my wife Janey and family, and indeed of the citizens of Pembina constituency.

Madam Speaker, I first met and worked with Don Craik prior to the 1977 election and had the pleasure as a new MLA of serving with him in his role as deputy leader and Deputy Premier of the Province of Manitoba. I found a man who was driven by very strong convictions, a very purp oseful man, a man who attempted in the very best and sincerest dedication to improve this province. I think history will show he was indeed a leader in many of the areas he served in the four years of the Lyon administration; a leader ahead of his time in political terms.

Madam Speaker, I recall more importantly the last two years in which I had the privilege of serving in Cabinet with Don Craik, during the years when the very active negotiations were ongoing with a number of major projects for the Province of Manitoba, and I can still feel the excitement of those activities he was spearheading on behalf of the people of Manitoba. He approached those with a great deal of thought and concern and forward planning to make sure the Province of Manitoba would be benefited not only in the immediate future, but in the long term from those negotiations.

It was that kind of approach to the Province of Manitoba that I think leaves all Manitobans to owe Don Craik a very sincere thank you for those kinds of efforts and those kinds of dedicated and principled approaches to resource development in the Province of Manitoba. Again, Madam Speaker, may I offer my condolences to Shirley and the family. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to be associated with this Motion of Condolence to Shirley and the family in memory of Don Craik. I knew Don before getting into politics in 19 71.

I think the longer you got to know Don Craik, you became more acutely aware of the depth of intelligence, integrity and honesty of this particular man. He was a good friend, one who has been taken from us early in life, had much more to contribute, but those are the fates 2758

Friday, 8 August, 1986 of life and I want to be associated with the Motion and the thoughts of my colleagues that I can only echo and it would be repetitive to further them here, but I wanted to be associated with the Condolence Motion on behalf of my wife and my family. We've lost a great Manitoban, one who'll be deeply missed. MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the Motion would the members please rise for a moment of silence. (A moment of silence was observed) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Lloyd G. Hyde, who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly in Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of devotion to duty and the useful life, active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I wish to express the sincerest sympathies to the family of Lloyd Hyde.

Having worked long and hard during his 65 years, Lloyd had just announced his retirement from politics and expressed a desire to spend more time with his family. I know he was looking forward to having that opportunity and to have had a number of years of being able to share the latter years of his life with his loved ones. Though the memories of Lloyd Hyde will be long recalled by us all in the contribution he made to the Province of Manitoba, I think particularly those memories will be cherished by the members of his family.

The six years he served in the war, and I can recall the pride he felt in having been a veteran and having served his country he loved so well in the war. His community undertakings in his hometown of Burnside, the pride he felt in his farming activity and Lloyd was a good farmer. I remember on one of the occasions we do annually - travelling out to Brandon to the Winter Fair - his pointing with immense pride to his farming operation and how much he loved the tilling of the land, the working of the land with his family. He spent time in community endeavour.

I think all this does indeed thread one common thread, his loyalty and his unselfishness. His concern, his interest in people led him to first run in the constituency of Portage la Prairie in 1977 and was re-elected to the Manitoba Legislature in 19 81, and I recall the many instances when Lloyd Hyde spoke, he spoke with intensity we can all recall here.

His voice would boom across the Chamber as he would speak, particularly on matters that related to his constituency and spoke with a great deal of force, great deal of feeling for those he felt an obligation to speak out clearly and firmly on behalf of, so he left his mark and left his mark well in this Chamber and, I'm sure, was recognized by people in the Portage la Prairie Constituency as one who had served them well, as well as serving the province that he loved so well and the country he loved so well. His honesty was unquestioned. His hard working was, as well, recognized by all.

I know that he will be missed, and I would like to extend to the family of Lloyd Hyde our fondest condolences at the grief that I know they felt at the time of his death, untimely death, quite a surprise to us all, and also our wishes with them during this time of memory of a loving husband and father. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity to speak on behalf of Lloyd Hyde and his memo ry, and to add to the condolences and sympathies that have been expressed in the Motion to the family. As well, we have lost a good friend.

More than half the members on this side of the House served with Lloyd Hyde in the Legislature and remember him well, remember him as a warm and sociable person, as a very honest and forthright individual who expressed himself strongly and always approached issues with firm convictions. He was an individual who was a very devoted family man. He certainly was a very patriotic individual.

My colleague, the Member for Arthur, and I just two weeks ago drove by his farm, and I noted the ever present flag on the flagpole and remembered the occasion upon which we all were present for the raising of the flag at the Hyde family farm. I remember as well very happily the patriotic songs that we sang on that occasion of the raising of the flag, songs that we sang all too often, I guess, at social gatherings with members of caucus. Lloyd was a very strong participant in all of those activities.

Lloyd was a former, very active member of the Barbershop Quartet Society, and always was one of the strong, able and enthusiastic participants in those social gatherings. He had a great love of country, a great devotion to Canada and, I guess, a great part of it was because of his military service. In that military service he served with great distinction and bravery, having been twice wounded during the Second World War.

He maintained the relationship through his membership in the Legion, through his membership in the Army Navy Air Force Veterans of Canada and in 19 77 he was given the Queen's Silver Jub ilee Medal in recognition of that service. It carried on throughout because, not only did he remain an active member of those groups, but he always participated in the various events at CFB Portage, was well known to the officers and members at CFB Portage, and indeed the military were very present even at his funeral.

All of us remarked on how well Lloyd would have enjoyed the manner in which it was presented and the presence of the military in recognition of Lloyd's patriotism throughout his life. I refer to him as Lloyd, which seems rather unusual, I guess, to all of his friends, because everybody knew him as Jigs. Jigs was one of us in all of our activities, and his wife, Isabel, and all of his children were well- 2759

Friday, 8 August, 1986 known to members of caucus, because he was so proud of all of them. They certainly participated, were very supportive of all of the things he did, certainly politically and in terms of the community. He had served his community in so many different ways, the Portage Ru ral Muni cipa lity Planning Committee. He was a member of the Elks. He was an elder in Burns ide Un ited Chu rch. He was on the Bur nside School Board at one time. They were members, of course, latterly of Trinity United Church. But Lloyd always expressed the great pride in the accomplishments of his children.

He had six children, and many of them of course had achieved significant distinction in their education. All of them have been extremely successful in their careers, and I think that it reflects the kind of upbringing that they had with Jigs and Isabel, the strong values that were instilled in them by their parents and certainly as all of us will remember him fondly, they will remember him proudly because of the values that were put into their lives by the association with their father.

So I wish to join with the Premier and all members of the Assembly in recognizing the passing of a good, faithful, loyal and old friend of ours, who served in this Assembly as the Member for Portage la Prairie for almost eight years, just I believe 23 days short of eight years and, as I say, served with more than half of us on this side of the House. So to Isabel and to the children, Richard, Doug, Tom, Bob, Linda and Helen, their spouses and their children, we join in expres sing sincere condolences and sympathies, and we remember fondly and proudly our association with Lloyd Hyde.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONN ERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker , I'm honoured to second the Motion of Condolence for Lloyd (Jigs) Hyde. Lloyd was born at Burnside in 1920, and he did his education in Burnside and Portage la Prairie. He spent his whole life at Burnside, carried on with the family farm, a very devoted farmer, a very good farmer. All the neighbours recognized Lloyd as being a very hard working and very thorough farmer. But Lloyd, as has already been mentioned was a very, very loyal, loyal person.

He was a very loyal Manitoban, a very loyal Canadian, and spent with great pride his five years in the armed services with the 17 th Field Regiment of the Royal Canadian Artillery. When Lloyd returned to Portage after the war, they went back into the family farm. He and Isabel proceeded to raise their six child ren and, as has already been mentioned, any father and mother would be very proud of the six children that Lloyd and Isabel have raised. At the same time two of his sons, Doug and Tom, are at this time farming the same farm that Lloyd had great pride in farming.

Lloyd was very proud to be the MLA for Portage, and Lloyd worked very hard to become the MLA, to get the Conservative nomination, as everybody knows, in Portage, the hard job is getting the Conservative nomination. Lloyd worked for well over a year, visiting neighbours and friends and soliciting memberships so that he could be the MLA for Portage. He spent a lot of time as the MLA in visiting people. He carried his duties very honourably and he worked very hard at it. It's unfortunate that Lloyd would pass away as untimely as he did.

When he announced that he would not be seeking the nomination, he announced that he was going to retire, to enjoy his strawberry farm which was one of the little new additions to their farming operation. He took great pride in that little farm and he was going to retire, enjoy his grandchildren and spend more time with his family. Lloyd announced some three days before his passing, at our annual meeting in the Portage constituency, that he wouldn't be running again.

One of the highlights of Lloyd's life - he was a very strong Monarchist, very very strong - he said one of the thrills of his life was having met the Queen, and this was quite a highlight in Lloyd's life. On behalf of my wife and I and the constituents of Portage la Prairie, we wish to extend the deepest sympathy to Isabel and the six children, in memory of Lloyd. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I and my family, and the constituents of Arthur would like to associate ourselves with the Motion of Condolence to Lloyd Hyde, who was a good friend, a good member, good farmer, proud Canadian and an individual who each and every one of us are a little better off for knowing. I will not say a lot, Madam Speaker , about his record as a farmer - it speaks for itself - and his pride in the grooming, the work that he and Isabel put into their homestead.

But I found as member driving from the southwest, that I was welcome at any time to stop in for a cup of coffee or the offer of a refreshment to help break up the trip and I looked forward to that on many occasions. The warmth in which one was welcomed to their home cannot be expressed in words. It was just a place like you were dropping in at your own home. As well, I want to compliment Lloyd Hyde for his contribution.

As a young Minister of Agriculture, I looked to his seasoned advice and I want the record to clearly to state, Madam Speaker, his support for the vegetable industry in the Portage la Prairie area; his support for Native housing in that program of advancement of vegetable production in that area; the work that he put forward to have a substantial amount of funds put into the upgrading of the infrastructure in the City of Portage la Prairie, not only on the Main Street Project, but dealing with the other services to support the very diversified area which he was extremely supportive of.

Madam Speaker, the family farm question talked about the example of a family farm and the kind that we would want to see continue and be supported by, the Hyde farm, the family of Lloyd Hyde is truly that kind of a family farm operation. His pride of his community - his farm carries the name of the community which he was so proud of. With those comments, I want to extend my sincere sympathies to Isabel and all the members of the family in the Portage community. 2760

Friday, 8 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. HON. W. PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, I certainly would like to add my words to the memory of Lloyd Hyde. Lloyd was not one of your more rambunctious individuals in the Legislature, but at the same time outside the House, he could be very very talkative, especially regarding his view of rural Manitoba and the feeling he had about his farm. I was somewhat moved by the comments of the Member for Arthur.

It made me recall the tremendous pride that Lloyd had in the farm and the fact that there was this open invitation for people to come visit the farm. I can still recall just past the Yellowhead cutoff, on No. 1 , and I drove by that farm many times. I drove by it many times on the way to Brandon or on the way to see an aging grandfather that I have in Saskatchewan - I'd take the Yellowhead. I always thought of him when I came by that turnoff and I never stopped in. I regret not stopping in now very much because he could be very eloquent in talking about the farm.

I was born on a farm; I lived on a farm for about 24 years and there is this tremendous pride that a farmer has in taking a piece of land, draining it, tilling it properly, planting the trees, organizing it and making it work despite all the odds of the weather and international prices and everything else. You have to have a lot of faith to do that and you have a lot of tough times to weather.

He did that, obviously, and so it was a tremendous contrast, in a sense, to the quiet but occasionally impassioned person in the House, to sit down with this person who would talk in such, in my estimation, an articulate way about the rural fabric. I say - and I'll come back to my regret in that we as legisators are often so busy that we never do smell the flowers and we never do stop in at the farms. As I said, I'm sorry for that and I certainly pass on condolences to his family. He was very proud of them. They, of course, must be very proud of his memory. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR.

D. BLAKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I wish to be associated with this Motion of Condolence in memory of Lloyd Hyde, a particularly good friend and rural colleague. I remember, as Caucus Chairman, receiving the phone call from his son Tom the morning after his passing to inform me that his father had not made it through the night and the shock and disbelief of my colleagues, as I phoned them that morning to pass on the news to them, and receiving calls from the radio stations immediately after to receive some comment on what type of a person Lloyd Hyde was.

When you have little warning to collect your thoughts, I think your immediate feelings come out, which I expressed as Lloyd being a very loyal Canadian and a warm, friendly person who was just so happy to serve his country and the various organizations that he belonged, to represent the people in that particular area. Lloyd was a very loyal Legion member and, as my leader had mentioned, was seriously wounded during the war. It wasn't easy for him to come back into civilian life and start his farming operation.

He had some more difficulty than other veterans in resettling, but settled down well and raised a family that he was immensely proud of and who can be immensely proud of him. He served his community well, a member of the Masonic Lodge and the Elks Lodge, which provided a great service to the community of Portage La Prairie. He was very active in that organization, as well as his church and the Barber Shop Choir groups. So we've lost a good friend and a great Canadian.

I know, in speaking with our former colleague, the Mem ber for Gl adsto ne, who was in the building yesterday and we mentioned the condolence motions, I know that he and his wife June would want to have their name associated with it also because they have remained good friends with Lloyd's widow, Isabel, and they visit back and forth continually. So, on behalf of the constituents of Minnedosa and my wife and I, I am pleased to join in this Motion of Condolence in the memory of Lloyd George Hyde. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I wish to offer to Isabel, to the family and to the grandchildren of Lloyd Hyde, sincerest condolences on behalf of my wife, Janey, and my family and, indeed, the constituents of Pembina. I think Lloyd Hyde is probably most aptly described as a fiercely proud Manitoban and Canadian, and that fierce pride was often demonstrated in this Chamber and certainly was with him every waking moment that he was with us and I had the pleasure of serving with him in this Legislature.

That fierce pride of Manitoba and of Canada was not unwarranted, Madam Speaker, because he served this country very well during the Second World War and cer tainly he served the communit y of Portage la Prairie in a very, very distinguished way in many activities through community service groups, agricultural societies, through the church. Madam Speaker, I recall Lloyd Hyde, nicknamed Jigs, as my leader has indicated. I couldn't help but remark, when I first met Lloyd Hyde, of his stature.

He was a fairly big man, over six feet, white hair, and he carried himself with the military stature and bearing that stayed with him from his service in World War II. With that stature about him, I personally nicknamed him "L ord Hyde," because he had that kind of a regal bearing about him and he always laughed whenever I would call him that. But I meant it sincerely, because he is an exemplary Manitoban in that he has served this country and his community and his family in ways that many of us will never have the opportunity to do.

He served country, community and family with a great deal of dis ti nction and I wish to offer my si ncerest condolenc es to Isabel, to the fam ily, and to the grandchildren. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I, too, wish to add just a few words of my own to the condolence motion honouring the memory of Lloyd 2761

Friday, 8 August, 1986 Hyde. Madam Speaker, to me, Lloyd Hyde always epitomized that generation of Canadians that all of us in this country owe so much to. I say that, Madam Speaker, because the present generation sometimes has the perception, when they witness events on Memorial Day, Remembrance Day, when the Canadian Legion is present to make a presentation, that it was only men and women, grey­ haired men and women in their fifties and sixties, who made wars. Mr.

Hyde and the hundreds of thousands like him were the flower of our youth, were young people when they served their country and when they prevented and rolled back the ugly stain of facism that had engu lfed such a large part of the civilized world, and indeed threatened the entire world. Madam Speaker, it's no exaggeration to say it was the kind of service that Lloyd Hyde gave to his country and for which he was severely wounded for.

He ensured that Legislative Chambers like this would indeed exist and that it was, of course, a specific significance to him that he was able to come back, having raised a family, having succeeded in his farming venture, to then participate in a free and open democratic Assembly, the very kind that he was prepared to lay his life down for. So, Madam Speaker, to me, Lloyd Hyde had a special significance in that special way. War veterans seldom talk very much about their experiences.

Lloyd followed that tradition, but for one Canadian, one generation removed from fhat period, I always felt a special thanks was owing to the men and women that Lloyd Hyde represented for what they did for this country, for this province, and for the free world. MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion, would the members please rise for a moment's silence. (A moment of silence was observed) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Norman Leslie Turnbull, who served as a member of the Legislative Asse mbl y of Mani toba, its sincere sympathy in the bereavement and its appreciation of devotion to duty, a useful life, active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I suspect most - maybe all members of this Chamber - I never had the honour of knowing the late Norman Turnbull. Norman Turnbull was the first of five Social Credit members elected to this Chamber, back in 19 36. In 1940, the late Norman Turnbull had become a member of the Bracken Coalition Government and was re-elected twice thereafter in 1941 and then again 1945.

It was a period of time, 1936 to 1945, the pre-and­ th e-war period, that cert ainl y there were many challenges confronted by members not only of this Chamber but all Chambers, and Norman Turnbull had the opportunity to serve during that critical period of time in public service. In his time, Norman Turnbull was admired for his steadfast commitment to his beliefs, the expression of his beliefs.

Even though I mentioned in 1936 he was part of certainly a very small minority party, the Social Credit Party, he firmly believed in the principles of that party and espoused the views of that party against what would have been the views of the large majority, he hever hesitated to do so. He was a strong advocate of agricultural issues, matters that concerned the farmers in the Province of Manitoba and spoke repeatedly in this Chamber in respect to the lot of the farmer and need to deal with the problems of the agricultural community in Manitoba during the period that he served.

He is loved and will not only be missed by his family, but all those that he served, and served so well, as a dedicated member of this Chamber for the constituency of Hamiota. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. It's indeed a pleasure for me to rise and second this condolence motion for Norman Leslie Turnbull. I would like to take a few moments to relay some information I managed to obtain from his family on the life of this member.

He served the Ham iota constituency, as the Premier has mentioned, from 1936 to 1949; firstly, as a Social Credit member, and latterly as an Independent. Norman Leslie Turnbull was born in 1900 in Binscarth. He was deceased on January 12, 1986 - a very long and useful life. His schooling was obtained in a small country school of Bel Marino beside Binscarth; latterly he went to Binscarth, then to St. John's College in Winn ipeg, and then to the Manitoba Agricultural College, where he obtained a degree in agriculture in the early 1920's. In 1926 he married Ellen Grace Atkinson of Hamiota.

They raised a family of five daughters and one son and farmed in the Binscarth area from 1926 to 1927. Then, in 1927, they moved to the Hamiota area and farmed the Atkinson land, the land of his wife. Because of the circumstances that evolved between 1929 and 1934, the Depression years, the hard and desperate life that people led at that time, they had to leave the Atkinson family farmland and he moved to Hamiota where he became involved in the milling industry; an industry that became the love of Norman's life as time went on.

The Depression period, 1929 to 19 34, as I've already mentioned, was very difficult on the families of that time. It had a deep impression on Norman Turnbull and the strong frustration that he felt with the injustices of what happened during that period of time, led him to get involved in politics. He ran for the Social Credit Party in 19 36 and was re-elected in 1941 and 19 45. During that period of time he served as Minister without Portfolio in the coalition cabinets of John Bracken and Stewart Garson. He had responsibilities 2762

Friday, 8 August, 1986 for Agriculture and Education. He did not run for re­ election in 1949, returned to farming in the Binscarth area and farmed there from 19 50 to 19 84. Mr. Turnbull was a very independent individual. He was very well spoken and he held his philosophical beliefs very strongly. He loved the land and felt very strong about the conservation of that land, in terms of passing it on from one generation to another in the best possible shape. He served his community in many ways: in school boards, hospital boards, church boards, and in many other community functions.

He was a very articulate man, spoke very strongly and effectively on his beliefs, and he had a lot of varied interests. He wrote a history of the small mills of Western Manitoba. As I mentioned earl ier, milling was a love of his li fe. The mill s disappeared from the rural scene in the 1950's and when the Centennial period came for many of our small towns in 1983,'84 and'85, he wrote this history, lucki ly, just before his passing. It is a history that will be kept in the Archives of Manitoba, I am sure. Mr. Turnbull also wrote poetry and prose on many topics: land, family, milling, and so on.

The family is now assembling his many writings in poetry and prose. His satisfaction in life, I believe, is exemplified by the fact that he wrote his requiem in 1948 and for the record, I would like to read very briefly, a portion of his requiem: I care not where you lay me when my time comes to rest for I am part of all that I have met trees, the purling brook, the wild wave's crest, the prairie grass, a lake of blue the wind, the flying cloud, the mountains, too, the ocean deep, the sandy shore me all these have made and more care not where you lay me.

On behalf of my wife, Kay, and all the constituents of the Virden constituen cy, I would like to pass on condolences to the family; the surviving wife, Grace, four daughters in Binscarth - Isabella, Neepawa and Wetaskiwin, Alberta; namely, Connie, May, Leslie and Heather; daughter-in-law Ivy; son-in-law Jack; and to his 18 grandchildren and 15 great grandchildren, I say with great sympathy on the passing of Norman Leslie Turnbull. MADAM SPEAKER: Support for the motion, would the members please rise for a moment's silence? (A moment of silence was observed) MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member for Arthur: THAT this House convey to the family of the late James Douglas Watt, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty, and a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, James Douglas Watt's life was a gratifying one.

Even during the period of his youth, he was involved in many dif ferent community organizations and activities. Prior to becoming a member of this Chamber, Doug Watt served ten years as a councillor for the R.M. of Pip estone and also as the Deputy Reeve of that municipality for five years. In 1953 Doug was elected as a Conservative Member for Arthur. He was re-elected five times thereafter by serving his constituents for a total of 18 years in this Chamber. Not too many members have had the honour of serving their constituents for that lengthy period of time.

He was also the Speaker of the Manitoba Legislature for two years and served as a Chairman of Municipal Affairs, Agricultural Committee; and during the Walter Weir Government, he was quite a Chairman of the Agricultural Crown Lands Advisory Committee and also served as a Minister of Agriculture. Doug never failed to accept new challenges. My first recollection of Doug Watt was in 19 69, when Doug Watt served as the Critic for the Minister of Municipal Affairs, which I was at that time.

I can recall Doug's willingn ess to sit down and discuss draft legislation that had to be introduced; changes to The Municipal Act and to The Local Government Act. I remember his service on the committee that was involved in, at that time, drafting a brand new municipal act and local government act and that comment that he made about partisanship. Doug, I remember during those committee hearings, was very nonpartisan.

His main interest was getting a better municipal act and he brought a great deal of practical knowledge and made a lot of practical suggestions to the preparedness of that municipal act which serves in that form today in the Province of Manitoba along with The Local Government Act. He consulted with the municipal people, I remember before we would come to Estimates, he would check with them and come back.

He was very, very conscientious insofar as ensuring that the municipal people were always contacted, both the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the Urban Association, before he would engage in the debate in the House to make sure that his homework had been adequately done. Contributions were many. He'll be sadly missed by a numb er of members in this House that would remember Doug Watt when he did serve. He served his constituents, he served his community, and served Manitoba well. To his family, I wish to convey my heartfelt sympathies and best wishes in this time of their bereavement.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I am pleased to second the Condolence Motion to the Watt Family. On behalf of my wife, Linda and son, Ryan and members of the Arthur constituency, we wish to express our deep sympathy to all members of his family. 2763

Friday, 8 August, 1986 Doug Watt was deeply respected by many members of the Legislature, by the province as a whole, in his commitment and work for his community, for the province and for his country. The former member, Doug Watt, was one of the few individuals who, at the same time as being elected to the Legislative Assembly in 1958, continued to hold his council seat until his term of office was up, which gave him double public duty. As well, he was an excellent farmer in the Hillview district, where he had farmed for some 45 years, producing registered seed.

His commitment to his community was demonstrated through his carrying on as a member of the board of the Hillview school, the Hillv iew church committee, his support and his knowing of the need to encourage young people in the proper path. He carried out the responsibility of the superintendent of the Sunday School and a member of the young people's movement in the Hillview district. Doug was a leader in his community. He was a member of the board of the Ellstone Lodge and a spearheader of it, and built for the seniors of that community.

He was a member of the hospital board when the decision was taken to build a hospital. Following his active political involvement, was very much a leader in the community in having improvements made to the facility, which is now a new and renovated hospital. Doug Watt saw the need to continue to provide people service. As well, he was on the rink committee when the decision was taken and worked to the development of a brand-ne w rink several years ago, again a commitment to the community and to the young people.

A member of the Masons, a member of the Lions' Club, it kept him very active and involved in other than the political life. I'm sure that both Doug and Grace Watt were a good example of strength to one anot her. I'm extremely saddened that they were unable to celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary this past April, a milestone in everyone's life that we're all very proud of. To Grace, we want to extend our heartfelt thoughts to her, and certainly are sorry that milestone was not able to be achieved together. As well, Doug and Grace Watt had extra problems.

Grace, being stricken with M.S., did not add to the ease of the load of repres enting a community, the travelling back and forth and, of course, the worry that was placed upon Doug with his additional duties as a member. But not one bitter word did I hear come from Doug or Grace Watt with that problem that was imposed upon them. They carried on. They took it in their stride. They served their community well.

Following retirement, they took a trip annually to Hawaii for the betterment of their health, to try and achieve the kind of retirement that each and every one of us strive for, a major commitment to carry out in people's retiring years. Doug, as well, was stricken with a problem, with cancer and again took the lead or pioneered, or was one of the 18 people who went to the United States for surgery. I think he was, as I indicated, one of 18 people to have surgery that was not had by anyone else.

He wanted to try something new to see if it would work and, in fact, he was mastering it and it was coming along very well at the time of his untimely death. In conclusion, his contribution to his community will be carried certainly in the minds of not only the people of Arthur and his family, but by many Manitobans. I am sure that the polit ical commitment and the dedication that he has left with his family is certainly felt and known by many people throughout Manitoba, his family consisting of Marlyn and her family. We express our sympathies to Cheryl and her family; to Melvin and his family; and to Dallas.

We want to say to them, thank you for the allowing of their loved one to contribute to the province and to making this a better place to live. There was never a word of concern that his responsibility should not be serving the wider range of people. He gave unselfishly of his time, and I want to say that I have certainly appreciated the counsel that I've had from Doug. I've appreciated him serving in the capacity to which I was able to appoint him, when Minister of Agriculture, and the association will certainly be missed. I want to express my sincerest sympathy to Grace and all members of the family.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to just briefly add a few words, as Leader of the party, on behalf of Doug's many friends and supporters and indeed on my own behalf and that of my wife and family. My expressions of condolence and sympathy to his wife, Grace, and his children and their families. All of us know the Watt family as a very warm, loving and supp ortive family, people who are active participants in activities of our party throughout the recent past, even beyond the time when Doug was actively serving the Legislature.

Although there are a num ber of members on this side who served with Doug, as well as elsewhere in the Chamber, virtually all of us met the Watt family and have come to know them as friends and have known of their active love and support that they had for all of us. There wasn't an activity that was held in Western Manitoba over the past 10 years when we didn't see Doug and Grace and probably most of the children involved in it. As a matter of fact, last November, we had an activity in Brandon and, in auctioning off some things, Melvin Watt bought my tie. So we know them well.

We have a great deal of admiration and support for them. We know that they have been successful farmers, that they have been very actively involved in the support of the Progressive Conservative Part y, and we remember them well.

We want them to know that our sympath ies, our condo lences and our very fond memories are with them today as we think about Doug, of his long service as a member of this Legislature for 18 years, his service in municipal council, his service in his church, Sunday School, and all of those various ways in which he contributed to his community, to his family and to all of the institutions that he loved and was so loyal to.

So on behalf of his many friends, certainly on behalf of my own family, I want to extend to Marlyn, Cheryl, Melvin, Dallas and certainly most of all, to Grace, our sincere condolences on the occasion of the resolution in respect and remembrance of Doug Watt. 2764

Friday, 8 August, 1986 MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion, would the members please rise for a moment's silence? (A moment of silence was observed) MADAM SPEAKER: The hour being 12 :30, understand there's a willingn ess on the part of all members of the House to continue. (Agreed) The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Leader of the Opposition: THAT this House convey to the family of the late Gordon M.

Churchill, who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement, its appreciation of his devotion to duty, a useful life of active community and public service; and that Madam Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, Gordon Churchill served in this Legislature as an elected member representing the Armed Services between 1945 and 1949.

There was a brief period of time which they were, several members in this Chamber not representing geographic constituencies but because of the war and post-war situation, representing the Armed Services and Gordon Churchill served in that role. Gordon Churchill is better known to Manitobans, indeed to Canadians, as one that served in the Federal House of Commons over a lengthy period of time, including much of the area, Madam Speaker, that you represent today, the Winnipeg South Centre area, and represented Canada and the Diefenbaker Cabinet of 1957 throughout the entire period of the Diefenbaker Government.

During that period of time, though I did not know Gordon Churchill personally, I can recall in the 1950's and early 1960's frequently seeing Gordon Churchill on TV. He was a very strong member of the Diefenbaker Government and also was one of the key Minister's insofar as Manitoba was concerned during that period of time, speaking out very forcibly on behalf of the Diefenbaker Government.

I know at the same time he was very much involved in the organization of the Conservative Party, committed himself fully to enhancing the Conservative Party organizationally as well as articulating its views on behalf of the Diefenbaker Government. I know from all reports that I've received of his closeness to the late Right Honourable John Diefenbaker, including the period of time after John Diefenbaker's defeat, Gordon Churchill remained one of the closest supporters and confidant's of John Dief en baker for many years after the Diefenbaker period.

He will be long remembered as a soldier, as a member of the Bar, his service in this Chamber, his service to Canada as a Member of Parliament and also a member of the Cabinet, a member of the Privy Council, and the name of Gordon Churchill will be long remembered. I would like to take this opportunity to offer my sincere sympathies to Gordon Churchill's family in their time of mourning and bereavement. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

On behalf of my colleagues and Gordon Churchill's many friends and supporters within our party, I wanted to just briefly place some comments on the record in recognition of his many, many achievements and his long service to the people of Manitoba and indeed the people of Canada.

As the Premier has indicated I, like many, thought of Gordon Churchill as a federal member, as a Cabinet Minister in the Diefenbaker administration, the Minister of Veterans' Affairs; he was a Diefenbaker Loyalist who was probably the most prominent Western Canadian or certainly Manitoban in support of John Diefenbaker and very closely associated with him over many years. When I received brie f information about Mr.

Churchill's service in this Legislature I asked one of his oldest and longest friends, Graeme Haig, Q.C., to provide me with some background information as to his life and his history and I'd like to place some of that on the record, if I may, at the present time. He was born in the Northw est Territories of a Methodist Minister father, and volunteered at age 15 to serve in the Canadian Army overseas in the First World War. Following World War I returned to Winnipeg, studying at the University of Manitoba achieved a Bachelor of Arts Degree.

He worked as a missionary with the United Church of Canada, primarily amongst the aboriginal people of Saskatchewan for a couple of years, and then later returned to Manitoba teaching school, having served as a Principal in Dauphin and having later served as a Vice-Principal of Isaac Newton School in North Winnipeg. He was a leader in the Man itoba Teachers' Organization, which preceded the Manitoba Teachers' Society, and was one of the people instrumental in developing the first pension plan for Manitoba teachers.

He was recalled to active duty in the Second World War by the Fort Garry Horse Regiment in September of 19 39, and was initially an Adjutant Staff Officer and achieved the rank eventually of Lieutenant-Colonel. He then was responsible for setting up what was known as the Khaki University in England, which was set up for Canadian troops serving overseas for soldiers who could not return to Canada, to initially enter into their training. In fact, he was Dean of the Faculty for a year-and-a-half.

He returned to Winnipeg in 19 45 and as was indicated previously was nominated to represent the Armed Forces in the Provincial Legislature, elected by Armed Forces personnel and took his seat in the fall of '46 and until 1949 when he ran unsuccessfully federally. He then, of course, was successful in running federally in 1951 and served for a lengthy period of time as was indicated previously.

He has a very long and colourful history of service in many, many ways to this province and to this country, and we are indeed very proud of the service that he gave, not only in his public life as a member both of the Legislature and of Parliament but certainly in his private life, in his service in the Armed Forces and his service in his various different careers throughout his history. 2765

Friday, 8 August, 1986 I would like to on behalf of my colleagues, on behalf of his many friends within the Progressive Conservative Party, on behalf of the many, many people whom he served in these many different careers, certainly join in extending our sincere condolences and sympathy to his daughter, Winona Walker of Vancouver, who survives Mr. Churchill and certainly any other members of the family and his friends on the loss of a very distinguis hed Canadian, on the loss of an individual who has contributed in so many ways to the history and the development of our Province of Manitoba.

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. As my leader has pointed out, Mr. Churchill had a tremendously long and distinguished career as part of Canada and Manitoba. I knew Mr. Churchill, not overly well, but had the opportunity to work for him in campaigns a little longer than I maybe even like to remember. But the one thing I would like to say about Gordon Churchill, I can still probably go down the streets in St.

James and Sturgeon Creek in the area that I have lived in all my life, that he represented for many years, and meet people who still have a very high pride in the fact that Gordon Churchill represented them as a Member of Parliament. I've never come across anybody who has held the devotion and loyalty from so many people within the constituency that I have been part of for so many years. It wasn't all just Conservatives, Madam Speaker. I know people who have said to me that, after Mr.

Churchill decided not to run again, made their decision to take a look at their choice of politicians, but while he was there, there was no choice for them; they just believed in Gordon Churchill. He has left that imprint on the area that I have been born and raised in and left that imprint on very many people and he served all of those people well.

It wasn't uncommon to walk down the streets in the summertime and bump into Gordon Churchill just wandering along or moving along at his pace and stopping and talking to people and I've had many occasions when you'd go to call on them, they might say, well, Gordon Churchill has just dropped in to see me in the past little while. That was the type of man he was, and he'll be remembered for that type of work within his constituency and for people, and my condolences to his daughter and all his friends.

MADAM SPEAKER: To indicate support for the motion, would the members please rise for a moment's silence. (A moment of silence was observed) MADAM SPEAKER: The hour being 12:30, the House is now adjourned and stands adjourned until 2:00 p.m. Monday next. 2766