May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2945 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Tuesday, May 8, 1973 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 o'clock.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES Select Committee on Foreign Investment MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, as Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Investment I beg leave to make the following report.

The Select Committee on Foreign Investment, established by a resolution of this Assembly on April 21, 1972, is unable to complete its work at this time and recommends that the said committee, as constituted in the resolution, be authorized to continue its deliberations and report again at the 1973 fall sitting of this Assembly. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill No. 60 The Alberta Resources Railway Corporation Amendment Act, 1973 (No. 2) MR. PEACOCK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a bill, being Bill No. 60, The Alberta Resources Railway Corporation Amendment Act, 1973 (No. 2).

This bill allows for the general increase in the number of directors and moves the authority from the Minister of the Treasury to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. [Leave being granted, Bill No. 60 was introduced and read a first time.] MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I should like to ask the unanimous leave of the Assembly for the Minister of Consumer Affairs, Mr. Dowling, to introduce for first reading an important new bill, notwithstanding the fact that one day's notice has not been given. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: I take it that the hon.

Government House Leader has the leave requested? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed.

55-2946 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 Bill No. 61 The Department of Consumer Affairs Act MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a bill, being Bill No. 61, The Department of Consumer Affairs Act. This bill, Mr. Speaker, establishes the new and exciting Department of Consumer Affairs and makes the minister responsible for development and implementation of policies, programs, services and administrative procedures in matters pertaining to consumer protection.

It provides a number of things including the option of hiring the technical services of various people throughout the province to assist in the administration of the department. Finally, and most important to me, Mr. Speaker, it allows the present Minister of Consumer Affairs to be the first Minister of Consumer Affairs under this act. [Leave being granted, Bill No. 61 was introduced and read a first time.] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. DIACHUK: Mr.

Speaker, I wish at this time to take the opportunity to introduce to you and through you to the Assembly, some 35 Grade 9 students from the constituency of Edmonton Beverly. They are from the Calvin Christian School, accompanied by their teacher, Mr. R. Vandelft. May I point out that Mr. Vandelft has taken it upon himself to bring his Grade 9 class annually to observe the proceedings of the Legislature. They are seated in the members gallery. I would ask that they stand and be recognized by the Assembly. MR. WYSE: Mr.

Speaker, on your behalf today I'd like to introduce to the Assembly a group of Grade 5 and 6 students from the Sherwood School in your constituency in Edmonton, Mr. Speaker. They are accompanied by Mrs. Finlay and Mrs. Madson. I ask them to stand and be recognized by the Assembly at this time. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce to you and through you to the members of this Assembly 49 high school students from the Ardrossan High School. They are accompanied by Mr. Campbell and Mr. Clements. I would ask them to rise and be recognized by the House. MR. COOPER: Mr.

Speaker, it's a pleasure today to introduce to you and to the members of the Assembly 30 Grade 9 students from the junior high school at Mannville. Besides being the home of these fine students, Mannville is also the home of a former premier of Alberta, the late hon. R. G. Reid, Premier of this province in 1934 and 1935. The students are accompanied by their principal, Mr. Armistead, their teacher Mr. Stockal and their bus driver Mr. Arnold. They are seated in the public gallery and I would ask them to stand at this time and be welcomed. head: FILING RETURNS AND TABLING REPORTS MR. COPITHORNE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to file an answer to a question that was asked on April 22.

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2947 head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Belinda Manybears MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, there are two questions I'd like to ask, first of all to the Minister of Health and Social Development. I'd like to ask the minister to report to the House regarding the Belinda Manybears situation. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, with the indulgence of hon. members, I would like to read and then table a brief letter I have had delivered today to the Chairman of the Alberta Hospital Services Commission. MR.

SPEAKER: May we assume that the hon. minister has leave of the House to make the announcement and table the papers just referred to? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the letter is as follows: In recent months there have been two occasions which have caused unjustified distress to parents and to the public generally as a result of the handling of the dead bodies of children by hospitals. The more recent of the two incidents involved an infant child who died en route from Slave Lake to the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton and my information is that the mother is Lillian Manybears of Slave Lake.

I am sure you will have no difficulty in learning all the relevant particulars by inquiring of the Royal Alexandra Hospital. I would ask that the Alberta Hospital Services Commission make appropriate inquiries into the situation to ascertain the following:

(1) What treatment services were provided at Slave Lake, Edmonton or elsewhere to the infant child from on or about April 16th, 1973 until its death?

(2) Following the death of the infant child, whether the conduct of persons responsible for handling the dead body did so in accordance with existing standard of conduct for the Province of Alberta.

(3) Whether in the opinion of the Alberta Hospital Services Commission existing standards of conduct in the Province of Alberta conform with a contemporary sense of propriety and respect for the deceased, I would ask that you cause the necessary preliminary inquiries to be made at once in order that at the next meeting of the full Commission, the matter can be fully considered and reported upon. That letter is signed by myself, Mr. Speaker. I would add only this much more. The Hospital Services Commission, of course, is a body that is represented by citizen appointees from throughout the province.

Their report is one that should reflect the views of Albertans from various parts of the province. The only other thing is that we have had discussions today with the bon. Mr. Adair's office, with the Alberta Metis Association, and as well, this afternoon I have forwarded by messenger a copy of this letter to that association. MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, and might I just say that we welcome the statement by the minister. Mr.

Minister, I would like to ask if the study and the report from the Alberta Hospitals Commission to you will be made public to the members of the Legislature and the people of the province?

55-2948 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 MR. CRAWFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question, if I may. Can the minister advise the Assembly whether he has had an opportunity to investigate reports that three other cases similar to the Manybears case have occurred to residents of the Wabasca district? MR. CRAWFORD: No, Mr. Speaker, no information of that type has come to me. MR. CLARK: One more supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Attorney General. Mr. Speaker, did the provincial coroner receive permission from the Attorney General under

Section 18 of The Coroners Act to do the autopsy or post-mortem? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I am not familiar with the wording of the

section to which the hon. member refers. Certainly there was no permission given by myself in connection with an autopsy here, but I should add that it is my recollection of the legislation that the coroner is able, without consent, to hold autopsies. They are generally held in the case of a very young person. This whole area, Mr. Speaker, is a very difficult one and one that needs to be dealt with with compassion and understanding. No doubt the hon. members will recall the discussions that were held in the House some time ago about the need to hold autopsies, inquests and things of that nature.

In my earlier discussions — that is, discussions I have held in the past with the coroner's office — we have talked about how best to handle what is, as I have said, a situation that needs to be dealt with with compassion and understanding. It is my memory of those discussions that in these circumstances there is an effort made to talk to the parents and explain the situation to them. One concluding remark, Mr.

Speaker, with respect to autopsies and their necessity in cases such as this, is the need for a doctor to sign a death certificate which is a requirement of the legislation, and the need to establish the cause of death. Quite frequently it is necessary to have an autopsy in order to enable the doctor to sign that certificate. Food Prices MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Consumer Affairs, the new minister. What specific steps has your department taken during the past five to six weeks dealing with the problem of food prices? MR. DOWLING: Mr. Speaker, we have done a number of things.

I have met personally with several members of the wholesale food community. We have been in constant touch with the federal authorities regarding their food price study and we are looking at ways and means by which we could determine exactly where the problems do lie, whether they are, as some people believe, at a retail level or at a wholesale level, or are in fact at a manufacturer's level. This work in committee is underway now and I would suspect that before the summer is over we will have something of some consequence established. MR. CLARK: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Is the department doing a study of a possible price freeze on food? MR. DOWLING: No, Mr. Speaker, we are not.

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2949 MR. NOTLEY: I wonder if I could pose a supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development relating to the first question posed by the hon. member — MR. SPEAKER: We have had a considerable number of supplementaries on that. The hon. member is going to be recognized shortly anyway and perhaps he could use that occasion for the question. The hon. Member for Hanna-Oyen, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton Kingsway. Blue Cross Plan MR. FRENCH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon.

Minister Without Portfolio Responsible for the Alberta Health Care Insurance Commission. Is the hon. minister aware of the new Alberta Blue Cross Plan which provides first dollar coverage for Blue Cross groups? MISS HUNLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am. MR. FRENCH: Mr. Speaker, to the hon. minister. Is it the intention of the government to make this new Blue Cross Plan available as an option through the Alberta Health Care Insurance Commission? MISS HUNLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, it is a very interesting plan that Blue Cross has.

I was aware of the fact that they were undertaking some actuarial studies concerning it, and also they made me aware of their new proposals. Whether or not we could embrace them, desirable as they might be — because they remove the $15 deductible which is a matter of concern particularly to our senior citizens and illiterate people, Mr. Speaker. It interests me but we are not in a position at this point to say whether or not we are financially able to. I might add that there is about $8 million contributed towards the Blue Cross Plan from provincial revenues at the moment and this would greatly increase the cost.

DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, I would like to ask your indulgence and that of the members of the House to revert to Introduction of Visitors to introduce some out of town visitors. HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS (CONT.) DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my apologies to you and to the members of the House and the visitors. The group from Ardrossan is not entirely Ardrossan high school students. They have as guests 22 students from the Joseph-Francois Perrault School in Quebec City. So we would like to once again welcome them to the Legislature and ask them to stand and be recognized.

55-2950 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (CONT.) MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton Kingsway, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Facilities for Handicapped and Senior Citizens DR. PAPROSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests, I would like to ask him a question regarding the recent meeting in Edmonton held at the University of Alberta campus regarding parks, in special reference to the provision of special facilities for handicapped and senior citizens in these parks. What is the result of that meeting? DR. WARRACK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I have noticed with great interest the information flowing from that meeting this weekend in Edmonton. I note particularly in the comments, not only with reference to national but also provincial parks, the emphasis that came forth from that conference on the need for the accommodation of senior citizens and generally disadvantaged Albertans in the parks we have in Alberta. It brings to mind some of the comments along just those lines made in the resolution in the Order Paper of the 1972 legislative session and particularly the remarks strongly and sincerely put by the hon.

Member for Edmonton Norwood, Mrs. Chichak. I believe other members emphasized that same point as it pertained to their constituencies and I feel that the matter and the observations are extremely well taken. DR. PAPROSKI: One supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. Minister of Public Works in reference to the handicapped. What provisions have been made regarding ease of access of the handicapped to the Legislature Building and other government buildings? Has anything been done about this or has anything been contemplated? DR. BACKUS: Mr.

Speaker, as far as the Legislature Building is concerned, a ramp is provided on the entrance below the north entrance to the Legislature Building that allows the handicapped to come on to the first floor where they then have access to the elevators to all the floors. We are examining the toilet facilities in the building to ensure that at least one of them will be available to the handicapped for their use. As far as other public buildings are concerned it's normally placed in our tenders that we comply with Addendum No. 5 of the National Building Code which provides for proper facilities for the handicapped. MR.

NOTLEY: A supplementary to the hon. Minister of Public Works. Has the hon. minister given any consideration to making changes in both the public gallery and the members gallery to accommodate the physically handicapped? DR. BACKUS: We are making plans for changes in both galleries. At present they are able to get into the galleries, but we are definitely planning some renovations to the galleries to make them not only more accessible for the handicapped but more attractive to the unhandicapped public. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by the hon. Member for Vermilion-Viking.

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2951 Undertaker Services MR. NOTLEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to direct this question to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development. By way of explanation, yesterday the minister mentioned that he had discussions with the undertakers' association regarding service in northern Alberta. My question to the hon. minister: is he in a position today to report to the Assembly on the result of these discussions and on whether or not there are any recommendations as to improving the quality of services in northern Alberta, particularly the remote areas of the province?

MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the question identifies an area not directly within the responsibility of any department of government in that it refers to the undertakers' association. What I had hoped to convey yesterday in my reference to it was that last November, when the situation in Fort Vermilion was current in regard to the handling of the dead body of an infant child, a number of difficulties became apparent. We found that we were dealing with agencies of the federal government, in fact, the Department of Indian Affairs and the local hospital board as well.

At that time when I gave instructions to officials to work the situation out so that sort of situation need not recur. One of the things we asked to be done was that a supply of coffins be made available in remote places and that they be of various sizes. This request I understand was directed primarily to the federal officials because the remote stations in so many cases have some federal involvement. In the course of that, the subject came up that it might also be necessary to discuss the matter with the undertakers' association and I believe that was done.

But I have no specific report to give in regard to that. Although my attention has been focussed on the case involving Slave Lake and the Royal Alexandra Hospital in the last day or so I would be glad to do a followup on the steps which have been taken in the north. MR. NOTLEY: Another supplementary question, if I may. Could I ask the hon. minister to advise the Assembly whether there is any overall procedure or policy to assist or pay for the burial expenses of non-status Indians? NR. CRAWFORD: Mr.

Speaker, as far as the Department of Health and Social Development is concerned, for those who are on public assistance arrangements are made by the government, and those who are not on public assistance, of course, would make their own arrangements. MR. KOZIAK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the hon. minister could tell us how the bodies of aborted children are handled? MR. CRAWFORD: I can't answer that question right off for the hon. member. Once again I will be glad to be in touch with him and provide what information is available. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question, Mr.

Speaker, to the hon. minister. Can the hon. minister advise the Assembly whether any consideration has been given by the government to the problems occasioned by the vast distance involved for those non-status Indians who are not in receipt of welfare but who have a low income? There are some pretty substantial costs involved because of the rather larger distances than would normally be the case. It would seem to me, if I might add, Mr. Speaker, that this might be an area the minister could explore with the undertakers' association. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is now making a speech.

55-2952 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, if I may just respond to it, I would be glad to look into that matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Vermilion-Viking, followed by the hon. Member for Innisfail. Fluoride Program MR. COOPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development. Mr. Speaker, has the Department of Health discontinued the flouride tablet program which has been carried on through the rural health units for some years? MR. CRANFORD: Mr. Speaker, there was a termination date set and then it was changed.

I am not sure of the precise dates. The history of that is the department adopted the policy for those communities able to flouridate their municipal water supplies that the decision should be made by them and they should either flouridate them or not, according to their own wishes. However, during a changeover period the oral paint was made available in the way it had previously been through the health units. I believe the program has not yet terminated but I can bring myself up to date on the timing of it and advise the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Innisfail, followed by the hon.

Member for Calgary Bow. Cosmopolitan Life Assurance MR. DOAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. the Attorney General. After talking this morning with the chairman of the steering committee of the Cosmopolitan Life, has the Attorney General agreed to investigate allegations of the shareholders who feel they have a complaint? MR. LEITCH: I take it, Mr. Speaker, when the hon. member refers to talking with the steering committee this morning, he is referring to his conversation with the steering committee. I met with them recently but not this morning. The answer to his question is yes.

They have been given that assurance as was the House some time ago when the matter was raised in the question period. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Bow, followed by the hon. Member for Drumheller. Transcendental Meditation MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Deputy Premier. Could the hon. minister advise if research is being done by the government on the value of transcendental meditation or if any studies have been commissioned on this subject? MR.

SPEAKER: It is not likely to be a matter of government policy, but if it relates in any way to government policy perhaps the hon. minister would like to meditate on it and give an answer. DR. HORNER: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is referring to a 'CHEDitorial' by a prominent member of the media which involved a member of the staff of the

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2953 Premier's office. My advice is that this meditation is exceptionally good and he recommends it for all the members of the opposition. MR. WILSON: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. minister disclose the topic for discussion for the scheduled meeting of the Executive Council with respresentatives of a transcendental meditation group? DR. HORNER: I know of no such meeting. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Drumheller, followed by the hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff. Snowmobile Insurance MR. TAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the hon. the Attorney General. Has the hon. minister taken any action in regard to the return of the portion of the premium for snowmobiles above $30 as outlined in the budget address on April 18? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, the order issued by the Automobile Insurance Board didn't provide for a return of any portion of a premium over $30. It is the board that has the jurisdiction to make orders in that area. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Bow. Suffield Well Drilling MR. WYSE: A question, Mr. Speaker, to the hon.

Minister of Mines and Minerals. Could the minister inform the House whether the approximate date has been set for the start of the drilling of the evaluation wells at Suffield? MR. DICKIE: No, Mr. Speaker. We have, however, prepared the regulations which will represent the advisory committee to the minister and those are in the process of being completed. Upon the completion of those regulations, the committee will then meet and set the times when drilling would commence. MR. WYSE: A supplementary question. Who will be doing the actual drilling? MR. DICKIE: Mr.

Speaker, it's the intention of the committee to recommend to the minister that they put out requests for proposals. Those requests for proposals would go to drilling companies as well as to other oil companies that may be interested. It appears at the present time, however, that persons who would primarily be interested would be the drilling companies. MR. WYSE: One supplementary question. So then the advisory committee hasn't been appointed as yet? MR. DICKIE: Mr.

Speaker, the two members of the advisory committee have been contacted with a view to accepting appointments and they are presently discussing a third member. But they are waiting until the regulations have been formally approved by the cabinet before the formal appointments will be made.

55-2954 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 MR. WYSE: A supplementary question. Will the names of the committee be tabled or made public? MR. DICKIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, it is the intention to make those names public as well as the regulations which would govern their operation. MR. WYSE: A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker. Does the hon. minister still agree that full development of the gas reserves at Suffield is incompatible with the army training? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has made his statement and it doesn't really require an answer. The hon. Member for Calgary Bow, followed by the hon.

Member for Olds- Didsbury. Short-Term Government Investment MR. WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the hon. Minister standing in for the Provincial Treasurer. Is the government considering introducing legislation to amend The Financial Administration Act to allow short-term government investments to be placed with credit unions as well as chartered banks? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, that's a matter I will have to take as notice and review with the Provincial Treasurer on his return from Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary Millican.

Price Review Board MR. CLARK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and ask the minister if he or his department have recommended the names of any Albertans to the federal governments' Price Review Board? MR. DOWLING: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Millican, followed by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. Spy Hill Gaol Assault MR. DIXON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is to the hon. the Attorney General.

The courts have recently disposed of the case of a young man who was assaulted by some other prisoners in the Spy Hill gaol in Calgary. A few months ago the Attorney General said he was going to have it investigated. I wonder, what precautions are going to be taken to try to cut down on these types of incidents within our provincial gaols, and in particular, the Spy Hill gaol in Calgary?

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2955 MR. LEITCH: Well, Mr. Speaker, as I indicated at the time of that very tragic and unfortunate incident, the structure of the institution involved makes it exceedingly difficult in two respects to prevent this type of thing. One, it has large areas, large dormitories which limit the capacity of the correctional institute personnel to segregate, that is keep people in particular age groups separate or apart from older persons for example. We have taken some steps as an interim measure in an effort to ensure that this kind of thing won't happen again.

But the primary cure is to alter the nature of the structure. As soon as we complete and have operational the remand centre in Calgary, which we anticipate will be available for use this coming January, that will take about 100 or 150 people out of Spy Hill. We will then be able to do the renovating we feel is necessary.

That renovating will include dividing these large dormitories into smaller areas accomodating 16 or 32 people, something of that nature, which will enable us to do a more complete and effective segregation and will have the added advantage that we will be able to keep a closer observation on persons in a dormitory of the smaller size compared with a dormitory of up to 96 which is now the case. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, followed by the hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff. Peace River Oil MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the hon.

Minister of Mines and Minerals. Can the hon. minister advise the House what the present status is of Shell Oil's exploration on the Peace River for tar sands development? MR. DICKIE: Mr. Speaker, there is no application before the Energy Resources Conservation Board on the Peace River area. I have had discussions with representatives of Shell Oil, as has my colleague, the hon. Mr. Adair, concerning Peace River and the Athabasca tar sands.

It is my understanding that they intend to proceed with an application for a pilot plant in the Peace River area, which will deal with the in situ process and entail an expenditure of some $30 million. At the same time, they do intend to proceed with an application before the Energy Resources Conservation Board on a mining operation in the Athabasca area. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat-Redcliff, followed by the hon. Member for Clover Bar. Suffield Land Use MR. WYSE: My question, Mr. Speaker, is to the hon. Minister of Lands and Forests.

What progress has the Department of Lands and Forests made regarding a review of the Gray Committee's Report on Land Use at Suffield? DR. WARRACK: We have not developed a review on that particular matter as yet. As the hon. member will recall, the matters of development of the mineral resources there are those that are primary. But at the same time, in the statement issued at that time, it was explained that we would be proceeding with an appraisal on the surface resources as well. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Clover Bar.

55-2956 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 Catonio Report on Foster Care DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the hon. Minister of Health and Social Development. I would like to know, hon. minister, if your department will be implementing the Catonio Report on foster care as far as the recommendations go of the raising of clothing and maintenance allowance? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, a careful examination has been done of the financial implications of those proposals and, of course, of all of the implications of the report since it was received.

I expect that by next month it will have been possible for cabinet to consider the recommendations I would make in that respect. DR. BUCK: A supplementary. In light of the fact that the requisition period for the summer has passed and the new one is coming on in July for the winter term, will it be ready for the start of that term, for requisitions for the winter term for foster parents? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I don't think there will be any substantial delay in implementation of any recommendations accepted following consideration by cabinet. I think the summer months would be a reasonable guess. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary Millican. CNR-CPR Freight Rates MR. DIXON: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier today I would like to ask a question of the hon. Minister of Industry and Commerce. Following your speech and that of the Premier, Mr. Minister, regarding transportation, have the CNR or CPR Railway given any indication to the government that they will be coming forward with their policy on how they arrive at freight rates throughout Canada and in particular western Canada? MR. PEACOCK: Mr.

Speaker, I think in speaking to that question a couple of days ago, I mentioned that the CNR and the CPR submitted a letter to this government and to the other three western provinces — provincial governments — stating that they're most willing to cooperate and in what areas could they cooperate. We have submitted those questions to them and as yet we have had no reply. As to whether they will or not I don't think I want to prejudge at this time. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: MINISTERIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS Alberta-Quebec Grain Talks DR. HORNER: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a brief statement with regard to the outcome of the talks held here in Edmonton between the Province of Quebec and the Province of Alberta in relation to agricultural matters, particularly insofar as they concern the matter of feed grains. This has been a continuing problem in relation to the Quebec demands for feed grains at a reasonable price and our demands in western Canada and in Alberta that our producers receive a reasonable price for those grains.

I'd like to lay before the House the conclusions to which both provinces have agreed: (1) that there be free movement of all agricultural products (including feed grains) across Canada;

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2957 (2) that no federal program on feed grains should be implemented unless the provinces have been consulted and a certain consensus has been reached between the two levels of government; (3) that a mechanism be established that will assure a minimum basic price and a fair return to western producer, and at the same time ensure consistent supplies at reasonable prices for eastern grain users; (4) that all users across Canada must have equal opportunity for access to feed grains; (5) that there should be major changes in the Wheat Board regulations regarding the domestic marketing of grain.

Mr. Speaker, I intend to table the entire press release we put out at the end of the two-day conference on Friday, and to say to the House that we were pleased to make what we feel is a successful step forward in acknowledging the various priorities of agriculture in the various regions of Canada. Department of Advanced Education MR. FOSTER: Mr. Speaker, in the course of the next several days beginning today, I would like to table the first of five parts of the response of the Department of Advanced Education to the Commission on Educational Planning. The first of the five parts, Mr.

Speaker, is a part which we have organized under the heading "Organization," and is broken down into several sections including: those recommendations we endorse in principle; those which we reject in principle; those which we are still studying; those which on certain conditions we are prepared to implement; those which we have implemented in whole or in part; those which we accept and those which we do not accept. I would add a word of caution on two points, Mr. Speaker, in the

interpretation of these documents as the response of the department. First of all, the response of the department cites the page and paragraph number of the Choice of Futures report. I would direct hon. members' attention to the document for the context of these remarks. Second, the

interpretation of this response must always be read in light of the jurisdiction of the Department of Advanced Education, The Universities Act and The Colleges Act. I have some concern that some of the positions we may take may be read by colleges or universities as an attempt to avoid institutional independence and a challenge to their autonomy. That is not the intention. It must clearly be read in light of the universities and colleges acts. Firefighter Recognition Program DR. WARRACK: Mr.

Speaker, it is my very great pleasure today to table on behalf of the Government of Alberta, the government's position paper respecting the firefighter recognition program. Hon. members will recall that in the Throne Speech for Alberta of 1973 it was stated that the government of Alberta would be recognizing in a tangible way the special skills and dedication of Alberta forest firefighters and to, at the same time, further protect our forest resources. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I have the honour to submit to the House copies of the position paper, Firefighter Recognition Program, which I would like to read and then table. The objective of the forest firefighter recognition program is: To recognize the important and special capabilities of Alberta firefighters, with emphasis on the contributions by Alberta's Native people, in ways that complement effective forest firefighting in Alberta. By way of background, Alberta has some of the most able and dedicated individual forest firefighter squads and crews anywhere.

The success of Alberta's forest firefighter control efforts depends upon these people. While proper training is essential, the government feels it important to recognize the achievement and dedication of its forest firefighters.

55-2958 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 Fire control operations in Alberta involve a variety of Alberta citizens, but the firefighters are predominantly Native citizens of this province. Over the past decade approximately 3,500 Natives have been trained and certified as firefighters. In 1972, 568 men were trained and certified in various firefighter categories. These fire training courses are given in the field and at the Forest Technology School in Hinton. Historically the recognition of Native people has generally been in terms of the white rather than the Native culture.

One result is that significant Native achievements and accomplishments can be overlooked. The Government of Alberta concludes that specific recognition is due the Native forest firefighters of Alberta. The forest firefighter recognition program, Mr. Speaker, is that, beginning in 1973 the Alberta Government will implement the following program in recognition of Alberta forest firefighter dedication and special capabilities. 1. Firefighter jackets: each certified graduate of the training course will be supplied with a special jacket for off-duty wear. 2.

Crests and decals: distinctive crests and decals will be used to identify firefighters as to their place of origin. The crests will be worn on jackets while the decals will be placed on the hardhats worn by all forest firefighters. 3. Boot supply: many persons reporting for firefighting duty in the forests do not possess proper footwear. Suitable boots or boot allowance will be supplied to all certified firefighters who become actively involved in fighting forest fires. 4.

Coveralls: at present the Alberta Forest Service supplies coveralls, in international orange colour, to trained forest firefighter crews that are transported from their home area for fire action. These coveralls have an imprinted forestry crest and are especially favoured by the Native people. The coverall supply program will be expanded to provide coveralls for every certified forest firefighter. 5. Film and public relations: a short film will be produced to promote the training and recognition programs and other public relations methods will also be employed. 6.

Opportunity liaison: forest firefighters displaying interest and ability for more complex jobs or for advanced training in forestry work will be given added opportunity to improve themselves. Close liaison will be maintained between the field and the educational institutions and areas of job opportunity. The cost of the 1973 forest firefighter recognition program is estimated to be $136,000 and it will be noted it is in the budget. The government views the program as an excellent investment in two ways.

First, recognizing the specialized skills and worthwhile forest firefighting efforts will instill added pride and enrichment to the individual lives and communities, especially to Native people and communities where added recognition is due and merited. Many of Alberta's Native forest firefighters go on to become local leaders in their communities. Secondly, the forest firefighter recognition program will complement fire control efforts through the training initiatives and opportunities that are provided. head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS 249. Mr. Taylor asked the Government the following question:

(1) In the current school year how many schools in the province are teaching oral French; (

a) commencing in grades 1, 2 or 3? (

b) commencing in grades 4, 5 or 6? (

c) commencing in grades 7, 8 or 9?

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2959 (

d) commencing in grades 10, 11 or 12?

(2) In each of the above groups how many schools are teaching oral French more than one hour per day?

(3) In how many schools is French being used as the language of instruction?

(4) How many students were involved in oral French classes as at December 31, 1972?

(5) What was the total amount of money spent on teaching oral French in the school year, September 1971 to June 30, 1972?

(6) Does the Department of Education have an oral French course for each grade commencing in grade one and proceeding progressively to grade 12 ? (7) (

a) What was the total amount of federal money provided to the Department of Education in Alberta to promote the French language? (

b) How was this money distributed? (

c) Are all school boards required to use the said money only for the teaching of the French language? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to move, seconded by the hon. Attorney General, that Question No. 249 be made a Motion for a Return, excluding paragraph 5 and renumbering paragraphs 6 and 7 to read 5 and 6. The reason for making this Question into a Motion for a Return, Mr. Speaker, is because on preliminary examination it appears that the answer may well encompass nine or more pages of typewritten material that might be more appropriately put in as a Motion for a Return and not appear in the Order Paper.

Regarding the amendment contained in the motion deleting paragraph 5 which requests the total amount of money spent on teaching oral French in the last school year, a review points out that that information is solely and exclusively within the jurisdiction and within the files of the local school boards if indeed they have that information at all. Certainly the department does not have information regarding the amount of money spent by each school board on individual courses.

Indeed school boards themselves may not have broken down the moneys they received in terms of the amount it takes to teach French or Social Studies or Science. They will be able to do that in the programs of accounting and budgeting. It comes into effect in 1974. [The motion was carried.] 250. Mr. Wilson asked the government the following question: What has the government done concerning the following recommendations in the Report of the Royal Commission on the Status of Women in Canada which have been further recommended by the Alberta Citizens' Advisory Board to the Executive Council for action?

The recommendations referred to are as follows:

(1) That the department responsible for enforcing the Individual's Rights Protection Act include within its organization, for at least a period of three years, a division dealing specifically with the protection of women's rights, and that its tenure be reviewed annually thereafter;

(2) That immediate research and action be taken on the problem of day care, primarily in enacting legislation spelling out control for existing day care facilities;

(3) That on annulment of marriage, judicial separation or divorce, there be equal partition of property accumulated by both parties during the marriage;

(4) That the Legislature of the Province of Alberta enact laws to simplify court procedure permitting partition of property to be incorporated and heard as part of the divorce action;

(5) Research into the abortion facilities in the province; and

55-2960 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973

(6) A study of the Australian concept of "Granny Homes", whereby home improvement loans enable creation of a self-contained addition to house an elderly person or couple willing to share in child care. MISS HUNLEY: I accept the question, Mr. Speaker. head: MOTIONS FOR A RETURN 248. Mr. Clark proposed the following motion to the Assembly, seconded by Mr. Ho Lem. That an Order of the Assembly do issue for a Return showing:

(1) A copy of all correspondence since January 1, 1972, between the Government of Alberta, its Ministers, agencies or boards and the Village of Airdrie or any other group, company or individual with regard to a Government of Alberta purchase or proposed purchase of land in the Village of Airdrie or within a radius of 5 miles from the Village of Airdrie;

(2) A copy of the location of each of the proposed or executed land sales outlined in (1) , showing the owner of the land under question and the names of the solicitors or agents acting on behalf of the Government of Alberta. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, subject only to the standard concurrence of obtaining the agreement to the tabling of the persons involved in the correspondence, the government certainly agrees to the motion. MR. DIXON: Before the vote is taken, Mr.

Speaker, on a point of clarification I wonder when agreeing to this motion, if the people had turned down the request for it, if it could be indicated by the minister that so-and-so has decided not to bring forth the information required or won't agree to the information required. MR. SPEAKER: Possibly the hon. minister could come back to that point after the return has been filed. Then, if it is necessary, a formal motion could perhaps be put on the floor dealing with the question. [The motion was carried.] head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 1. Moved by Dr. McCrimmon, seconded by Mr. Farran.

Be it resolved that the Government of Alberta give consideration to the establishment of additional fish hatcheries in Alberta, to be used for re- stocking the lakes and streams with sport or trophy fish. Mrs. Chichak moved the following amendment, seconded by Mr.

Ghitter: That the motion be amended by striking out all words after "hatcheries in Alberta," and by substituting the following therefore: "either Government or private industry owned and operated, to be used for re-stocking the lakes and streams, to enhance the enjoyment of the citizens of this Province in the sport of fishing and in the development and expansion of fishing as a tourist attraction and commercial industry". Adjourned debate on the amendment: Mrs. Chichak. MRS. CHICHAK: Mr. Speaker, the motion was last debated and the amendment put back on March 20 and some time has lapsed since then.

I feel that perhaps at this time before I commence further debate I would like to read again into Hansard the

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2961 motion as proposed to be amended by myself. I amended the motion so that it would read as follows:

Be it resolved that the Government of Alberta give consideration to the establishment of additional fish hatcheries in Alberta, either Government or private industry owned and operated, to be used for re-stocking the lakes and streams, to enhance the enjoyment of the citizens of this province in the sport of fishing and in the development and expansion of fishing as a tourist attraction and commercial industry. [Mr.

Diachuk in the Chair.] I wanted to read that specifically because generally I think that the first thoughts that come to mind when we talk about fish hatcheries and the industry of fishing are of the aspect of a sporting event. Certainly it has much broader connotations and needs a great deal more attention in order to develop an industry that is lacking here in the province and perhaps across Canada. Of course, we are concerned mainly with the development of new industries, new jobs and new diversification here in the Province of Alberta.

So I wanted to underscore that part of the amendment that refers to "or private industry owned and operated". I would just like to say that most of the comments 1 have this afternoon, although they may appear to be in relation to what government can do in these areas, really do apply to the area of what private industry can do in its development. We have here in the province a hatchery in the city of Calgary. If we took some time to meditate on that, we would find that perhaps it would be better suited to establishment in a more rural setting or area. Nevertheless it is established there.

I think the government can do a great deal to encourage private industry to become interested and to think about and become involved in the development of fish hatcheries and the industry of fishing as a commercial enterprise. The establishment of hatcheries in the rural areas, located near lakes and streams perhaps, or in what are presently termed remote areas of the province, can certainly be accomplished. There may be many side benefits from this.

Developing or establishing hatcheries in the remote areas of the province would accomplish the opening up of those areas that presently are inaccessible, either completely or in part. This would extend the accessibility of areas in this province to not only an industry which would be developed there, but to tourism, and we know and are coming daily to realize more and more the impact and the importance this can have on the economy of the province. So by opening up inaccessible areas we have a whole new ball game. This does more than just make more of the streams and lakes available for fishing.

It makes these areas available for many other kinds of sports for relaxation because then people would be able to travel to these places for their other many varied types of recreation. As a result of very expanded development in fish hatcheries, in the breeding of fish and in the restocking of fish in the lakes, we also develop a new kind of manpower training in the science of cross-breeding and breeding of disease-free stock. This also opens some initiative or possibility for new courses in the art of fishing for greater enjoyment.

As I have indicated, the industry can establish in a fairly unpopulated area in the regions of lakes and streams. We have so many of which we are not even aware. We really think we've got a great deal of land and not much water but we would be amazed if we opened up and built some roads into some of the remote areas to see just how much we do have in that type of resource. In the development from the aspect of a sporting kind of industry, this certainly expands the possibilities of promoting our province nationally and internationally from the point of view of tourism.

If we watch some of the programming is carried on television with respect to sporting facilities available insofar as lakes, boating and fishing are concerned we find that the majority of the films we see on our television programs are promoting states in the United States, other countries and perhaps other parts of Canada, but not our own. We have here in the province very many beautiful aspects that are being presented on these films except that we really haven't realized the resource we have here and the possibility for its development and expansion.

I would like to mention briefly the commercial aspect of the fishing industry here. Some of the uses that we accept and buy as consumers in shopping we don't consider the source or the types of foods or consider really that

55-2962 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 these are the kinds of foods we could produce here in the province and not have to import. Production of foods for human consumption in this area can be extended to where we can supply the local market across the province, and to some extent export. If we think of the many varieties of fish oils that we have and the medicinal oils produced or other uses of fish for this kind of production which supply our needs — certainly they should not all be imported from other parts of the country or internationally.

I think we can begin to fill this gap with our own production here in the province. If we consider all the animal food on the shelves in the stores purchased by pet lovers in this province alone, it is in the millions of dollars. Certainly with the mink farming in existence much can be produced here to fill this need. It is a million dollar business. We can think also of fertilizers from fish, both for plants and farms -- the very many uses for fertilizers. Certainly in the commercial sphere it is a business untouched in this province.

These kinds of developments not only provide an opening for an industry in the breeding of fish but in the manufacture of varied foods as a result. This I think would be an encouragement to many people to venture into their own business and would be a great incentive for people, not necessarily just the highly educated but people who perhaps feel this is the kind of area really not requiring a university degree before they can venture out into some really very lucrative type of living. Some thought could as well be given when we talk about having several varieties of fish produced.

Some industry could be established to specialize in one variety, perhaps in rainbow trout or in trout of varied species, but one type of fish. Have it marketed in that way, not only for food consumption but in the lakes for a sporting type of event. I can foresee that kind of development could make many miles in advertising promotion. This all, of course, brings about many new activities.

It certainly would have a great impact on our environment, in the cleaning up of our lakes and streams, and opening up the virgin areas in the province making them accessible for a varied enjoyment of our very dear land and the waters we have here. Those are just a few of the comments I thought I would like to throw out with respect to the broadening of the original motion, and to look at this in the scope of not only a sporting consideration, but a commercial industry as well.

If we take some lessons or give consideration or thought to what some of the other countries such as Japan have done, I think we can very well and very quickly foresee the growing industry that can be developed here. I throw this challenge out to the other members to use their ingenuity in putting forward for consideration some of their varied views on this matter. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLUKER: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to say a few words on this motion, I'm certainly in favour of the motion as I understand that the government is now restocking a lot of our lakes and streams to enhance enjoyment and to come up with a sporting fish in Alberta. I understand that in Alberta today we are cross-breeding some of these fish. I understand that in the one in Calgary they have done some cross- breeding of fish and have come up with some real changes today in our new sporting fish.

I understand they have crossed a cohoe salmon with a walleye and they came up with a fish they call the 'cohwall' — a very lazy fish, a very good breeder, but a very lazy fish — so they had to come up with something that would be a little better sporting fish. So they crossed this cohwall with a Skeena river trout and they came up with what they call a 'cohwallski' -- a real good fighter, but they had to teach the darn thing how to swim. I just thought I would relate this to the members here today and also to the hon.

Minister of Lands and Forests so that when he's looking into this they should maybe try to come up with a better fish that can swim. Thank you.

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2963 MR. GHITTER: Mr. Speaker, if I might, as seconder of this amendment to the motion, address a few comments to the hon. members. I do so as a man who has some vested interest in seeing that there be more fish hatcheries in the Province of Alberta and as a result more fish within our lakes and streams. I say so on the basis, Mr. Speaker, that having been a supposed fisherman looking for salmon in British Columbia, trout in the Maligne Canyon, tuna fish in Acapulco, eel in Hong Kong, and even whatever they have at Chestermere Lake, I can honestly say -- DR. BUCK: Nice to be rich.

MR. GHITTER: That's the only lake we have around Calgary. I can honestly say after having gone through all those experiences as a fisherman, Mr. Speaker, I have never ever yet caught a fish. As a result of that I have a vested interest in hoping that our streams and lakes in this province will become once again as resplendent in fish as I understand they were in the past. For it could not be my particular deficiency as a fisherman that resulted in my goose egg at the fishing hole, but it is undoubtedly because of the fact that our fish are slowly disappearing from the Province of Alberta.

We need to do something about it. I think, Mr. Speaker, that what has been said with respect to this motion has dealt with it in probably the very broadest sense. The mover of the motion, Dr. McCrimmon, in presenting his point of view as to the necessity for the presentation of this resolution to this Assembly, I think has brought home to all of us some very salient points gringing to light the fact that there are some extreme needs for the encouragement of fish hatcheries and the hopeful restocking of our lakes and streams. I think a few of the statements the hon.

Member for Ponoka made some time ago on presenting this resolution bear repeating because I think they bring out some of the urgency. It is noted in Hansard on March 20 that when Dr. McCrimmon expressed his point of view he stated, "It is estimated that 30 to 40 per cent of the cars crossing our borders from the south during the tourist season have some type of fishing equipment in them." He also stated that with 700 miles of the eastern watershed of the Rockies, he sees no way in which one major fish hatchery can service all of them, and this is apparently the case in the Province of Alberta now.

I think when one looks at those statistics, and when one looks in terms of the problems we have with more leisure time and many more people who are taking advantage of the beauties of the Province of Alberta, who are using our wonderful resources in the hopes of catching a few fish to take home, we should place a lot of emphasis on this most interesting area. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that really the motion in itself expresses the concern of this Legislature in this regard and the amendment, hopefully not to take anything away from the motion, merely brings out two factors the mover of the motion would agree to, and probably felt were encompassed in the original motion. That was the enhancement of private industry by encouraging them to become involved in the fish hatchery business and also the reference to the tourist attraction and commercial industry which is in the amendment. All this really does, Mr. Speaker, is expand somewhat on the motion of the Member for Ponoka.

I think it would even be by way of clarification, a little more explicit in the sense of determining the intention of this Legislature should the motion receive the approval of the legislature at this time. You know, Mr. Speaker, it seems that even in Japan they use Alberta trout to restock their fisheries. I know in the very famous area of Japan that the city of Niko where they have a very famous tourist attraction, stocked with trout. And uniquely enough the trout originally came from the Province of Alberta.

Niko is famous more particularly as the place where the three monkeys came from: they see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. Next to the three monkeys the Alberta trout are the second tourist attraction. It is unique that Japan recognizes the value of Alberta trout. Possibly we here in Alberta don't do so to the extent we should.

55-2964 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 If we can encourage private enterprise even more particularly than the province itself to get into this business and cooperate with them and help them in a financial way if necessary, a very viable industry could be created by private enterprise which could indeed be advantageous in both a commercial sense and certainly in the sense of the many Albertans who are now avid fishermen and the many who come to Alberta on the basis of the tourist attractions which our fishing provides. I think it is also a shame, Mr.

Speaker, when we look in the wonderful brochures sent out by our Department of Tourism that show these fishermen always with a trout or a fish on the end of a hook coming out of the lake or stream -- it is almost representation to other people in the world who read our brochures that we will have fish for them. In fact, it is almost a guarantee that we will have fish for them and I do not think this is the case. What could disappoint our tourists more than carrying -- DR. BUCK: ...[Inaudible ]... MR. GHITTER: Pardon me? Catch them too well.

We could also have fishing training areas for tourists if they are bad fishermen. We have hunter training; why not fishery training? Mr. Speaker, I think we are saying to the tourist community throughout the world that we have fine fishing here and I think this is an undertaking to the tourists of the world that we will do whatever we can, everything in our power, to ensure that our lakes and streams are well stocked so that they can enjoy them.

So that at least when those brochures go out throughout the world and people come to Alberta, they will not leave empty-handed and disappointed that they didn't have an opportunity to catch one of our trout in the beautiful streams in our mountains. On the basis of the many fine arguments recited with respect to the motion and the amendment, may I suggest to all members of this Legislature that the motion, as amended, should receive our whole-hearted support. MR. LUDWIG: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that one can hardly argue with the fact that the more we stock our lakes, rivers and streams the more the tourists will enjoy fishing. But I have to disagree with some of the remarks made by the hon. members when they tried to play down the type of good fishing we have in Alberta. I went to Lake Minnewanka last year and caught my limit. I went to Kananaskis Lake, -- rainbow trout, not easy to catch but I caught my limit. I went down -- MR. GHITTER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think the only reason the hon.

Member for Calgary Mountain View caught his limit is that he is more familiar with baiting than the rest of us. MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, when it comes to baiting I often get my share of suckers, too. Being very compassionate toward all God's creatures, I throw them back in the lake and river -- MR. CLARK: And they emerge as Conservatives. MR. LUDWIG: When it comes to baiting, you have to know something about fish before you try to catch them. I read a very interesting

article about catching fish. I often will go with a colleague of mine to, say, a lake. We have to try different ways of fishing. We'll fish side by side; I'll catch a few and he doesn't catch any. We use the same bait, the same technique and he certainly is a good-hearted man;

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2965 there is no reason why the fish would discriminate against him, even though politically he may not be of the same faith that I am. But sometimes cleanliness and the smell -- fish are sensitive. You might use the wrong kind of after-shave lotion or something on your hands. Fish are discriminatory. I wonder whether some of those that died by the courthouse didn't react against a change in administration. So one never knows just why fish don't bite. But I was telling the hon. members that I caught my limit in the Elbow River upstream and downstream from Calgary.

I caught my limit in Newell Lake. I caught my limit in Chestermere Lake. They are jackfish, but they are fish and they are fun for some people. I went up north to some of the lakes. I caught my limit of Arctic grayling in the Muskeg River at Grande Cache. I went to Sheep Creek at Grande Cache and caught my limit of bull trout and Arctic grayling. So you have to be patient. You just can't expect the fish to line up — because one happens to be handsome or happens to be in a hurry — and that they will bite. It requires a certain amount of skill and cunning. You have to be smarter than the fish to begin with, Mr.

Chairman. But I'm not saying that you must not improve fishing. I'm all in favour of it, because I've been skunked, too, in fishing. That was because, probably, I wasn't prepared to do the type of fishing that the local area demanded. When I said I caught my limit, I have caught my limit in Chain Lakes in Alberta on more than one occasion, both big and small. Ask the hon. Member for Highwood. I've caught my limit in Reesor Lake, down south in a park. I've caught my limit in Elkwater Lake. I don't fish so much, Mr. Speaker. I just go down there for a drive and try to fish and be patient.

But as I stated, I do get my share of suckers — and this place is no exception. Sometimes fish will rise to the darndest kind of bait — and this place is also no exception. Sometimes I'll throw out artificial bait for which fish with common sense wouldn't rise and take it — but they take it, and here also, Mr. Speaker. So I don't want to create the impression that I'm against improving our fishing facilities or our good fishing in this province. Every stream, lake and river can be improved. But let's not knock Alberta.

Let's advertise Alberta all the way from the far north where there are virgin streams and virgin lakes where you can go and catch more than your limit in no time flat. There are some lakes down south that have been fished rather heavily. When I talk about catching my limit, Lake Minnewanka — even though it's in a national park, it's an Alberta lake. It's our lake and we should go and fish there. The Vermilion Lakes, Elk Lake in the mountains — I've caught my limit there. I went to Horseshoe Lake; it's hard to get to — about a 25 mile horseback ride.

If you know anything about fishing you can catch some of the big ones. But you have to adapt yourself to local circumstances. I believe that if this present hatchery in Calgary were managed to the best advantage, for the time being we need not spend $4 or $5 million on a hatchery. They cost a tremendous amount of money. They have to be supported by rearing ponds; they have to be supported by good management, so let's make the best use of what we have in Calgary now. The decision to build the hatchery there was not made lightly. We can't build a hatchery in every constituency.

In some places the water and other facilities are not suitable and therefore it would be wrong. But I am in favour of more stocking and fish planting in our lakes and streams. Those people who like to fish have to get off the beaten path, get a little deeper into the foothills. There are many lakes that have not been fished adequately. I am thinking of Margaret Lake northwest of Cochrane. There is a Margaret Lake, I believe, in Banff National Park. It's a tough lake to get to. You have to row across Hector Lake to get to Margaret Lake but there are cutthroat in that lake.

There is a Margaret Lake in northern Alberta. I've often wondered what kind of woman this Margaret was to have so many lakes named after her, but she did pretty well for herself. Mr. Speaker, let's advertise Alberta as it is and how we can improve it. Fishing is terrific if you want to take the time, if you want to travel off the straight and narrow roads and if you have some fishing know-how. I think that some kiddies don't mind if they catch any kind of a fish even if it isn't a game fish. If it's a pike in Chestermere Lake or a sucker in the river, they enjoy it. So, Mr.

Speaker, I disagree somewhat with those people who are decrying the rather depleted sport fishing in this province. It isn't quite so.

55-2966 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 From early spring, now that the streams are open, are flowing, you can go downstream from Calgary. I'm not sure whether the fish is edible, but you can catch a rainbow trout in the Bow River, in a swift stream that will give you the kind of fight that perhaps steelhead will give you in some of the British Columbia waters. You have to be very able, experienced and lucky to hold some of these four or five pounders when they get in swift water. But that is the thrill of catching a fish. It isn't, like sometimes in this House, when you throw out a book and pull in an easy one.

That doesn't please anybody. I never did like a fish to come easy. I like it to fight and I like to become excited about it so when I land it and go home I've had a fight. So perhaps some of the hon. members ought to go a little further, see what's happening and praise Alberta. Advertise Alberta's fishing. People come here not only to catch a fish but to enjoy the wilderness, the wide open spaces and the fresh air. I am one of the people who think that fishing in Alberta is tremendous though it could be improved.

When we have exhausted the facilities of the present Calgary hatchery we should look toward the future and perhaps build the odd hatchery again. We should urge the federal government to perhaps stock the lakes in the parks. We have some tremendous lakes in Jasper. They draw a lot of fishing population and they should be stocked more heavily because they get fished more heavily. There is good fishing in these lakes. It might be seasonal, you might have to be lucky to get some but it is good sport fishing. Jasper Park, Banff National Park, Waterton Park have some tremendously good lakes, both large and small.

If we improve these we could perhaps ease the pressure on fishing in rivers, streams and lakes in Alberta. I would like to put in a plug for another form of fishing in this province that isn't too well known. You have to walk into the hills. Most of the foothill streams, the streams on the eastern slopes of the Rockies, have some type of fish or another: cutthroat, bull trout — which is known as Dolly Varden in many instances — rainbow, rocky mountain grayling and perhaps some others I am not aware of. But most of these streams have fish.

You have to be cunning, you have to be careful but in the foothills there is some tremendous sport fishing second to none if you want to go out and hike a few miles away from where the public has exhausted fishing. You will enjoy yourself and perhaps come home with a good catch. So all in all, Mr. Speaker, the sportsman who wants to go out and look for fishing can have a tremendous time. I am not saying Alberta's fishing is the best in Canada, but it is among the best, Mr. Speaker. MR. GHITTER: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the hon. member would permit a question. Mr.

Speaker, I am wondering if the hon. member would advise us, inasmuch as he is such an expert fisherman, as to where he finds all his red herrings? MR. LUDWIG: Mr. Speaker, that is a very interesting question, one of the best that ever came from the hon. member. I would say after listening to the hon. ministers there seems to be an unlimited supply of red herring in this House. Perhaps the Minister of Lands and Forests is one of the best examples of being able to drive one across the floor. The Deputy Premier seems to have lots; he might be chewing on one right now for all I know.

The Minister of Highways tries his luck but I think even he has trouble dragging a red herring across the floor. But he is getting better. So if the hon. minister was just informed on what is going on in the Conservative party, he will have an unlimited supply of red herrings. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton Calder, followed by the hon. Member for Sedgewick-Coronation. MR. CHAMBERS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a few words on the amendment. I am one of the fortunate people who was raised on a farm that had a good trout stream running through it.

I guess some of my earliest boyhood memories are of lazy summer vacation days, fishing for brook trout. We called it the speckled trout but I think it is actually the eastern brook. We caught quite a few large ones

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2967 too, although I am always reluctant to describe the size and the numbers of the fish that I have caught for fear of being accused of telling fish stories. Sheer modesty prevents me from describing some of the catches. MR. GHITTER: [Inaudible] MR. CHAMBERS: Unlikely, Member for Calgary Buffalo. However, we did catch a lot of good trout. For bait we used angle worms and grasshoppers and artificial flies. I think that any boy can learn a lot about nature in trying to outwit a good sized trout particularly when he has hours to do this in. It can be quite a contest.

I feel sorry that every boy, and every girl for that matter, isn't in a position to spend a lot of time fishing in the summer. I still fish the creek on the old homestead whenever I happen to get home but I will have to admit that the fishing isn't like it used to be. Nowadays I notice automobiles lined up along the creek banks at every accessible point and there are probably more fisherman than fish. One can still catch a few in the spring but they tend to be undersized and I guess that the trout never live long enough anymore to attain any stature in the spring.

Yet in the spring I am still able to visit a lake in northern Montana where a good catch is practically assured. In fact, I am going down again in a few weeks after we get out of here. On my last trip perhaps a dozen of us had no trouble at all in catching all the trout that we wanted, all good fighting rainbow trout of up to five pounds weight. He had to release most of them after we caught them since one can only bring back ten pounds or ten fish whichever is the greater. I think with relish of the fish fries that we had along the lake shore.

One of the fellows brought a sack of homemade bread and to my taste there is nothing finer than fresh-caught rainbow trout fried in butter. (Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I am digressing here. I will get back to the subject.) But anyway, pan-fried trout accompanied by suitable liquid refreshment, is really, really good. This lake has a blacktop road to it and is accessible to anyone. Of course, my first reaction I guess is, how can this be? How can Montana possibly offer this kind of fishing while Alberta can't?

I defy anyone to tell me of a readily accessible lake in Alberta with this type of fishing where one can go in and catch his limit of not only trout, but almost trophy trout. The answer of course lies in the stocking. I checked with the local Indian people who look after the lake and they told me that the state government stocks the lake every year with 75,000 rainbow fingerlings — 75,000! Regardless of the number of people who go down there, and I notice there are more people there from Alberta and Montana ...[Inaudible]... and the reason is, of course, that they can be sure to catch a good fish. We heard Dr.

McCrimmon tell us that the entire output of the hatchery at Jasper is but 86,000 fingerlings and that's to cover all the lakes in the Jasper Park area. Almost that many are put into one lake in Montana. I don't recall offhand what the output of the Calgary hatchery is but I know the number of fish planted in individual lakes in Alberta is pitifully small. When we consider the popularity of fishing as a sport, the fact it is such a good clean sport. Everyone can participate in it, from almost just out of the cradle to people sitting in a wheelchair.

When we think of what the Minister responsibile for Tourism wants to accomplish in Alberta it becomes evident that we need in my view a crash program on hatchery construction. Trout is certainly the prime game fish, at least in my view, and has proven to be adaptable to most Alberta waters if given half a chance. The rainbow has even thrived in ponds where the water cannot be described as being anything like the stream which native rainbow are raised in. In this regard I would like to suggest that we shouldn't underrate cutthroat trout.

For the short time I lived in Calgary during the middle '50s I was able to get in a lot of trout fishing. I had a little more time then. I worked for a company instead of for myself and I was able to get out after work and on weekends and do a lot of fishing. Cutthroat was the main target. I can recall getting good catches within 45 minutes of Calgary — Black Diamond area, Sheep Creek. There was a creek out in the Jumping Pond area. The Member for Calgary North Hill would probably know the name of it. I can't recall it offhand. Then there was the Dogpound Creek area that had brown trout in it.

The fishing was pretty fair considering how close it was to the city of Calgary. I don't know if this is possible now, but

55-2968 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 I sincerely doubt one can go out — within an hour — from Calgary and obtain the kind of fishing possible a short 20 years ago. In the beaver ponds west of Nanton in the forestry reserve there, I can recall terrific catches of cutthroat trout. We discovered a few ponds on an elk hunting trip one year and went back in subsequent seasons. There were cutthroats of consistent size, generally around 12 to 15 inches and 1 pound to 1.5 pounds. Beautiful fighting fish. I guess one of the reasons the rainbow is more popular than the cutthroat is the fact that when it's hooked it heads for the surface and breaks water several times,

whereas a cutthroat, in my experience, goes to the bottom and looks for a log to wrap itself around to try and break your line. The cutthroat is a good fighting fish and I don't think there is anything at all to choose between a cutthroat and a rainbow in the frying pan. Sometime I would like to discuss the relevant merits of a rainbow and cutthroat with the Member for Pincher Creek-Crowsnest. I'm sure he's caught a lot of each variety. But I think maybe we should give careful consideration to the use of native trout such as the cutthroat in our restocking program.

Incidentally, one of the finest game fish is caught north of the Athabasca River in the Swan Hills area and areas north, and that's the Arctic grayling which is not to be confused with the Rocky Mountain whitefish which, in my view, are not quite the sporting fish that the Arctic grayling is. Perhaps one of the reasons why disease and kill-off has been such a problem is that we have tried to introduce foreign species of fish, such as the European brown and the eastern brook trout, when the native rainbow and cutthroat are perhaps hardier in Alberta waters than many of these foreign species.

I don't think we should underestimate either the coarser native species such as the walleye and the perch. The walleye is certainly an excellent table fish, almost on a par with the trout in the frying pan. The perch is also a pretty good sporting fish. The perch can provide many hours of good winter entertainment through ice fishing. It's an excellent fish for ice fishing purposes because it travels in schools and if you happen to get a hole through the ice in the right place you can often catch quite a number, and children are able to catch them quite handily as well.

Therefore it is an excellent family winter entertainment. Even the lowly jackfish, and I must personally admit that I don't like the jackfish, or the northern pike — as I think its proper name is— too well but even a jackfish, if caught in cold water, can put up a good scrap. Furthermore, the American tourists like to catch the jackfish. These can be a real good tourist attraction. I have been at lakes in northern Alberta, at Faust Lake, where I can recall that we had gone to catch the walleye. The Americans were there after the jackfish. They didn't want to waste time on the smaller walleye.

They wanted the large jackfish. I guess they were after the meat. I would particularly like to see a large-scale stocking program for walleye. Mr. Speaker, I would hesitate to advocate any approach which could cause harm to any segment of our Alberta society. However, I would have to say that I have real doubts about the overall economic merits of commercial fishing in Alberta. I would suggest, perhaps, that the total value of commercial fish is small by comparison to the value of fish as a tourist attraction. Perhaps commercial fishing doesn't have much impact on sport fishing.

I am not certain of this but I do have some doubts and I would like to learn more about the subject. I wonder maybe if commercial fishing shouldn't be restricted to those lakes which only have limited tourist potential, and that the better lakes in Alberta should be reserved strictly for sport fishing, and commercial fishing should be prohibited in those bodies of water. Mr. Speaker, I think that well-stocked prolific lakes and streams can perhaps be the biggest single factor in helping Mr. Dowling achieve his objectives in the field of tourism.

Furthermore, regardless of tourism, good sport fishing can make a significant contribution to the quality of life in Alberta -- in fishing for pure enjoyment by Alberta citizens, old and young alike. As I understand it, the intent of the amendment by the hon. Member for Norwood is to allow for the operation of fish hatcheries by either government or private industry. As one who believes that private enterprise can generally accomplish things more expeditiously and more economically than a government

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2969 can, I am pleased to support that amendment as well as Dr. McCrimmon's original motion. I would urge all members to do likewise. I hope that we all strongly endorse this resolution and thereby encourage the government to proceed as rapidly as possible with a comprehensive large-scale fish stocking program. Thank you. MR. SORENSON: Mr. Speaker, there are many areas in Alberta that are practically no- fishing areas. East central Alberta is such an area, although there is sufficient water available.

Many of the pioneers from this area came at the turn of the century from Minnesota. They came from the land of a thousand lakes. Perhaps those who left had lakes and fish coming from their ears. This happens many times. We have heard of mountain people wanting to leave that area, settle on the prairies and vice versa. But now we have a new generation, a generation looking at vacation farms, fishing as a business. Dugouts and artificial lakes are appearing across the land. We also have a new generation with more leisure time. There are a number of fish hatcheries in our sister province of British Columbia.

One especially I have read about -- I have never visited it — but it's the one at Wardner in the interior. What is in store for the person who visits this fish hatchery? Well, there are playing fountains, landscaped gardens, refreshing pools. These are the first introduction to the Kootenay Trout Hatchery at Wardner near Cranbrook. Ordinary tourists, local residents, school groups and members of clubs such as Canadian Legion, Kinsmen and naturalist organizations are finding their way in increasing numbers to the new Kootenay Trout Hatchery.

More than 1,000 people attended on the opening day of June 21, 1966 and since that day a steady stream of visitors has gone through the doors. The hatchery has become one of the showplaces in the Kootenay area. The Kootenay hatchery is one of the most modern in North America with more than 5 million fish being handled annually. The fish are fed automatically and are electrically controlled and so on. As well as being a modern and efficient trout-rearing operation the Kootenay hatchery is destined to become a major educational and tourist attraction. This would be a welcome addition to the city of Edmonton.

We have many school groups attending and they could also visit a facility such as this. I feel there is a great need for more fish hatcheries in the province. I like to think of fishing as a quality of life. In our area if you were to visit an office you might see a sign, "Gone to the Ball Game" or "Gone Golfing", but you will not see one that states "Gone Fishing". This is what we would like to see there. Mr. Speaker, a lady can go shopping for an afternoon and not buy a thing and yet spend a beautiful afternoon. A man can go fishing and not catch a thing and spend a whale of an afternoon.

They tell me the best time for fishing is just before you get there and just after you leave. We hear a lot today about equal opportunity, but in many cases it's not true. But I would like to see every boy and girl, man and woman and senior citizen in this province who are able given the opportunity to fish. There is one picture that has stuck in my mind over the years and that is a photo of a young boy with a bamboo pole over his shoulder and a little string of fish, his little sister tagging along behind and they are on their way across the fields to their home — a beautiful picture.

In the Good Book, where the multitude is fed by the loaves and fishes, what would have happened if that little boy hadn't had access to the fish? Well, I think the crowd would have been fed, but it was nice to have had a lad and some fish participating in that great occasion. There is a billboard sign that states, "Take A Youngster Fishing." Many prison authorities are quite convinced that field sports tend to lead young people away from bad influences. The Director of the famous Boy's Town, the Right Rev. Monsignor Wagner has said: Boys who like to go fishing seldom go bad.

Fishing is a sport which brings a boy into close communion with Nature, with its beauty and mystery which quicken the imagination and strengthen the appreciation of those values which are cosmic and eternal.

55-2970 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 The great poet Edgar Guest said: "A man is always mostly man — out fishin'." Judge William G. Long, Judge of the Superior Court in Seattle, Washington said: I have been a Juvenile Court Judge in King County, Washington, for over twenty years and during that time I have handled some forty-five thousand juvenile cases. As a result of that experience I have come to the conclusion that most youngsters go wrong simply because they do not have anything else to do. City kids don't have the chores to do that most of us had when we were growing up.

It is more difficult for them to get out into the hills and on the waters and in the mountains. Paved streets and alleys are not very wholesome places in which youngsters can give vent to their abundant energies and their hunger for adventure. He goes on to say: I cannot recall in twenty years a single case of serious juvenile misconduct involving a youngster whose hobby and recreational outlet was fishing. Yes, we need hundreds of fishing holes in our province. But fishing can have a detrimental effect on our youth, fishing can cause playing hooky. I am reminded of two young fellows who met on a country road.

One was coming from school. He met his school friend there and said to him, "Did you catch anything?". "Well no," the other young fellow said, "but I haven't been home yet." 1 would just like to draw to the minister's attention one lake that is in my constituency. It is located about halfway between Lougheed and Hardisty on the south side of Highway 13. The water depth is 28 feet. Studies have been carried out by the Fish and Wildlife that show the lake is suitable for stocking and I would hope that perhaps in 1973 fish will be introduced into this lake. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. APPLEBY: Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to this amendment and to the resolution, I'd like to say I am certainly in favour of the resolution, whether it is amended or not. The resolution is more general. Of course when we get into the specifics of trying to put down exactly what we are trying to spell out, as we do in the amendment, we run into difficulties. However, I have mixed feelings when I stand up at the present moment because the discourse that has gone on in the Assembly has certainly been from the viewpoint of the sports fishermen.

Until the Member for Edmonton Calder mentioned the commercial fishermen, I didn't know if anybody in this Assembly realized that another species exists. I think it is very important that we recognize the fact that we do have commercial fishermen in Alberta. I am certainly not ready at the present time to write them off as some people we can do without because there are several thousand of them and the accrued revenue they bring in to themselves and to other segments of the economy amounts to quite a considerable amount. I do feel, Mr.

Speaker, that there is room for both the commercial fishermen and the sports fishermen here in the Province of Alberta and there will be for a considerable length of time to come. The commercial fishermen today, most of them, take most of their harvest in the winter time. They travel to lakes that are quite remote and normally fairly inaccessible. This is where most of the commercial fish are taken today. I think in talking of fish hatcheries we have to keep this in mind, too, because a lot of the commercial fishing is done in northern Alberta.

I think when we are talking about the future of fish hatcheries in Alberta, we should be thinking of location. When we talk of commercial fishing, we are thinking of species such as the ones my friend from Edmonton Calder has already mentioned, the walleye, perch, the lowly jackfish or the northern pike, and also we have to add to that the whitefish. These fish in the northern lakes and streams of Alberta are receiving a great deal of pressure nowadays, not only from the sports fishermen but from the commercial fishermen as well.

For that reason I think it is essential that when we are thinking about fish hatcheries in this province, we should think of them in terms not only of stocking streams for

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2971 trout or for the use of sports fishermen, but also for replenishing the stocks in the lakes where the commercial fishing is an industry as well. Also, Mr. Speaker, because of the pressure of both sport and commercial fishing that I have just mentioned, we do have our stocks of fish being depleted in the lakes. We also have quite frequently in some of our lakes what is called a winterkill. This is where the fish all die off because of a lack of oxygen in the water. This can be brought about from various reasons, mostly climatic.

One of the things that brings this about is the fact that we have exceptionally heavy and continuing snowfall in the winter, and normally the lakes, when they crack and heave and open up in various places in the winter -- the oxygen supply is replenished in this manner. But if you have continuous and heavy snowfall, it seals off these cracks and heaves, and the oxygen can't get into the water. So some of the lakes at some times have a complete winterkill.

If the fish do not get back into those lakes through streams from other sources where there are fish, then those lakes should be restocked and we should make provision for that when we are thinking of fish hatcheries here in Alberta. At one time you know, Mr. Speaker, we did have a fish hatchery in northern Alberta. We had one on Lesser Slave Lake at Canyon Creek. I don't know why, but for some reason the old government in Alberta agreed to letting this fish hatchery be closed. This was very unfortunate, because it did fill the type of need I've been speaking about as far as commercial fishing is concerned.

Now, it may have been a matter of direct revenue. I don't know whether it was or not, because after it was closed down it was turned into a tavern and became quite successful as another type of watering place. I was very interested in hearing the remarks of the Member for Calgary Mountain View when he discoursed on fishing. I have heard many places in the past from other people that he is an avid and successful fisherman. I do believe this to be true. It was very refreshing today to hear him talking on a subject which he knew something about. He also mentioned the fact that you had to be smarter than the fish.

I have heard an addition to that little saying, that you also have to be the same type of mentality as well. However, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to emphasize that in the first place we certainly do need fish hatcheries in Alberta. He need more of them. I would appreciate the fact that these should be used to maintain and even increase the fish population for both sport and commercial fishermen. I do believe that when we are thinking of further fish hatcheries, we should think about the northern part of Alberta as well. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Highwood, followed by the hon. Member for Bonnyville. MR.

BENOIT: Mr. Chairman, I would begin by saying that I'm in favour of the resolution and the amendment. But I do want to take a different tack from some of the others with regard to the matter of restoring the fish. There is one thing I'd like to say before I get into my expressions of thought with regard to future fishing, and that is the fact that it always concerns me a great deal when people talk about tourists so much in terms of dollars and cents rather than quality of life, as was mentioned by one of the hon. members.

If the only reason we are interested in tourists is for the dollars and cents they bring into the province, I think we need to take another look at our personal attitude in order to ensure that the tourists will continue to come back. It is true that it is important, and this will come, I think, automatically if we take a personal and vital interest in the people themselves.

So when we are thinking in terms of stocking and restocking fish, getting ready for the tourists and providing them with the thing that interests them so far as fishing is concerned, I think we should take a look at what they really want, not just what they will do for us. Probably it's because of this desire to get the maximum dollars and cents out of the trade that we are in the depleted condition we are so far as fishing in Alberta is concerned. Without taking enough money to restock, without giving the fish time to naturally restock, we have depleted, to a certain extent, the fishing.

I did appreciate very much the comments by the hon. Member for Calgary Mountain View in defending the fact that we do have a lot of fish in Alberta

55-2972 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 yet. I, like he, believe that the fish are there. The difference is that he catches them and I don't. I watch these fishing streams all along the way and I see lots of fish but I can't catch them. I will have to take one of these lessons offered, either from books or from hon. members who have the time to do the fishing, and see if I can go. I noted the fact that it depends on how you dress, how you smell and a few other things. I wasn't aware of these things so that is probably the reason why I am not able to be successful. However, Mr.

Speaker, what I would like to suggest is that one of the reasons why fish for restocking purposes, can be reared in hatcheries is because they are protected there. Fish could be reared naturally in a good many places in Alberta if they were protected to a greater degree. I think the best assurance of restocking streams and lakes would be the natural way, where we could close every stream and every lake for a certain length of time when the fish are spawning and give them the opportunity to spawn without being molested.

I am of the impression, not being a biologist but just watching nature, that there must be some streams and lakes in this province that should never be opened for fishing, which should be preserved for the purposes of spawning and the early growth of the fish until they are large enough so that they can go out on their own for purposes of being caught or to catch the fisherman, whichever way it is going to go. If we spend some fish hatchery money on law enforcement and protect some of the areas that are being poached, I think we could guarantee a considerable increase in fishing.

I think we should let the people walk to some of the fishing spots instead of paving the roads so that every Tom, Dick and Harry can get there without any problem. If we just gave the fish a chance they would do a wonderful job naturally. It would be a lot cheaper and a lot easier and a lot better so far as the fishing is concerned because they would have been reared that way. I say give the fish a chance. Use a single hook only instead of gang hooks when you go fishing and things of this nature.

There are large numbers of areas in which we could improve the natural rehabilitation of the fish population rather than trying to rear them in hatcheries and then dump them in the rivers and the streams. I am not opposed to it, as I said. I am in favour of all kinds of fish hatcheries — the more the better, but one of the best ways, the most sportsmanlike way, would be to let them grow naturally. Canada has 25 per cent of the fresh water in the world. Alberta has all kinds of water in which the fish could spawn and grow and replenish themselves.

Someone made a statement earlier in the debate on this resolution to the effect that the eastern slope streams are natural habitat for trophy fish. This is one of the reasons why we can only rear a limited number of fish in hatcheries for the purpose of restocking, because the hatchery waters and conditions must be somewhere near what the natural habitat is going to be, or else the fish suffer shock and there is a great loss of those put into the streams. That is why fish hatcheries can only be limited in number and areas where they are located. So, Mr.

Speaker, I think that probably if I am permitted to address the Minister of Lands and Forests, we could put some of our forest rangers back into the 'backspaces' where we would close off the streams to fishing altogether and give the fish a chance to spawn naturally and protect them by giving the forest rangers the authority to strongly enforce the law prohibiting any kind of poaching. There are many reasons why fish are depleted besides poaching. There is the pollution that is being created, the excessive numbers of fisherman and things of that nature.

We very often blast the beaver dams so that the water will flow again, yet beaver dams are one of the finest places for fish to live and to grow. When I think of reducing the number of fisherman, I don't mean to keep people from going fishing but there are two or three ways in which it can be done, Mr. Speaker.

If we are going to have only half of the streams open during a year, then probably we should reduce the number of fisherman, but I think that it would be better to close all the streams for a portion of the year and then leave them all be open for the other portion of the year so fisherman could go everywhere instead of concentrating on the open streams and only poaching on the closed streams. Well, Mr. Speaker, I only wanted to make those few remarks with regard to the natural way of replenishing or restocking our fish.

I think that we need to give great attention to that as well as to restocking them from fish hatcheries in order to ensure that we will have not only enough fish for the fisherman,

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2973 both tourists and local, but that we will also have a quality of fish that will be able to live in the streams in which they are naturally bound to live. MR. HANSEN: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say a few words on fish hatcheries. I believe these we should have more of, especially in my area. The lakes are like any other business, the same thing as farming actually. If you didn't put in the seed you couldn't expect to get a crop out. I would like to take the Cold Lake area and speak for a few minutes on it.

During the last three years we've had a deal going there with cohoe salmon. Now for that area cohoe salmon aren't a native fish. There has been quite a bit of money spent and a considerable amount of time and work but to date, there hasn't been much accomplished because the cohoe which are put into the lake, end up in Saskatchewan or some place else. I think the lakes and areas should be more concentrated with the native fish. The Cold Lake area has whitefish, trout, pike and I think those are the fish which should be recommended for that lake, due to the experience we have had with the cohoe salmon.

I think that there are ether lakes in the province which would be under the same conditions. I think it is a waste of a lot of money to put a fish in an environment which doesn't agree with it. As far as I am concerned, we are trying for the last year in that area as with the cohoe salmon. I hope those fisheries, if they don't prove any more successful than in the last three years, will be abandoned and we go into more native fish. There is a lot of commercial fishing done in Cold Lake.

It is well supervised in our area, but if you go over the Saskatchewan border, their regulations are a lot different from Alberta's. It has caused quite a bit of disagreement between the fishermen on the Alberta and the Saskatchewan sides. The Alberta side is patrolled. In the winter time, there are snowploughed areas where they can fish and other areas they have to leave alone. I understand from all the fishermen and even the game warden in that area that when they open the Saskatchewan side they more or less throw it open for so long without too much supervision. So it is a hard lake to control.

I would like to see the Alberta government officials get together more with the Saskatchewan government and have the lake controlled by both governments so we have equal regulations on both sides of the border. We also have another lake north of it which is more or less in Saskatchewan and Alberta too. I think both of these lakes should be controlled by both provinces so we have equal laws on both sides to protect the fish and also to protect the fishermen. There are other lakes in the area that were stocked years ago with whitefish that proved very, very successful.

Before they were stocked they didn't have whitefish. Now they have been fished for years due to the stocking in the early days. Most of that stocking in the early days was done with fish eggs put from one lake to another. I think there could be a lot of money put into the fish hatcheries which would return a benefit both to the people and to the province in the years to come. I don't see how we can keep fishing these lakes by controlling the fishing habits of the people, you might say, with their commercial fishing and their sportsman fishing without putting money back into them and by stocking them.

I think a lot of these lakes we have in that area have been fished for many years. The last three years we have hardly any room left at some of the lakes as far as tourists in their trailers, in their cars. The number of fish that goes out just through the sportsmen would be a great number if they were all counted. So this is why I feel it is big business, both as a tourist trade and also as commercial fishing. I think we should go into fish hatcheries that raise fish both for the sportsmen and also for the commercial fishermen because I think there is a great amount of business that can be had from both. [Mr.

Speaker resumed the Chair.] The commercial fishermen create a lot of labour in the wintertime on the lakes when they have a full crew going. They also bring a lot of different people into the towns to work, which makes the small towns more economical with the amount of money spent in them. I think the tourist trade can be expanded to be

55-2974 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 a real business in all parts of Alberta, especially in the northeastern areas, because there is good access to most of these lakes. This is why there is so much pressure put on a lot of the lakes over the last few years. So I would highly recommend that more hatcheries be built and that the sportsmen and the commercial fishermen both be taken into consideration at the same time. MR. DRAIN: Well, this is the afternoon, Mr. Speaker, when everyone has to wet their line. I am speaking now to the amendment. I want to congratulate the hon.

Member for Edmonton Norwood for bringing this worthwhile amendment to this resolution. We have certainly covered the purview of fishing in the Province of Alberta, and we even made an excursion into Montana. I might point out to the hon. Member for Edmonton Calder that I can agree with him on the number of fish in Montana in relation to what we have in Alberta. However, there is a big difference in the quantity and quality of water that you have there also. So I think this has an important bearing.

In spite of the fact there is this much attention given to fishing in the Montana area, there is a great reduction in the size of fish because of the intensity of the fishing that does occur. The era of the 30 pound steelhead seems to be behind us. They migrate up into the British Columbia side which is just over the mountains from where I live. At one time they were very, very common but presently they are very rare and when you see one it is something to talk about.

In fact, I know of one particular fellow who spent his summers for five years in succession with his efforts directed towards catching one of these fish. He finally succeeded and it was a big day for him. AN HON. MEMBER: Was his name Drain? MR. DRAIN: I think probably the big obstacle to intense development of fishing in Alberta is the limitations -- I am now talking about sport fishing — of the habitat. There just aren't that many rivers suitable for sport fish in the province if you classify trout as sport fish and leave it at that particular option. What we talk about as a river in Alberta always intrigued me.

When I moved into a new area and got a map it would say river so and so. You would shudder and think for days how you were going to get across this river in Alberta. Finally, you say, "What was that little creek I crossed?" And some surveyor would say, "Oh, that is a river you are talking about." Now in British Columbia it is a totally reversed situation. When they talk about a creek you had better help yourself and bring your water wings with you because it is going to be a long way across.

But with this, of course, we have to accept what we have and give credit to what we do have and not speak in a derogatory sense about the little rivers we do have. There has been a considerable impact on fishing as a result of environmental changes. I think possibly down in the southern part of the province it is very noticeable. On the Crowsnest River the cutthroat no longer exists because of the change in water temperature due to the sewage outfalls and to- logging in the higher areas which increased the temperature of the water and created a different environment.

On the other hand, to offset this, you find the Castle River watershed which suffered from a dearth of fish even 35 and 40 years ago because of water temperature. As a result of logging, you now find fish in areas where no fish existed prior to this. The reduction in the amount of timber allowed the heat of the sun to work on the water and create the sustenance, the food chain which created the environment to supply fish. So one possibly can offset another. What can be done to improve fishing?

One, an aggressive program, as this resolution suggests, of stocking; another, by adding to the environment that you have by, say, spillways, dams, waterbreaks and so on which are eliminated where rivers are straightened and so on; development of fishing in fish ponds; the development probably of different species. I wonder how many people know that you can catch golden trout in Alberta. But you can. These are the trout that frequent the areas 7,000 or 8,000 feet or higher. I can talk about a lake where they are, but I had better not because I know somebody else will go and fish

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2975 there. I want them to grow up and die of old age, you know, just to be photographed and not caught. That would be fine. So generally, all I can say is that it has been a pleasure to talk on this resolution. I appreciate having it brought before us in the Legislature. It has added to my fund of knowledge of fishing. I believe it should be encouraged and that the government should draw this up as one of their priority programs and see that there is good fishing, realizing also that the fishing pressure is such now that there are rivers closed in my particular area.

They close the north branch of a river one year and the following year open it up. The result is that there is a double intensity of pressure on the particular fork that is open. The amount of people who direct their efforts toward fishing in relation to how it was 20 or 30 years ago is truly amazing to me. When people have to stand side by side along the bank of a river and watch their lines cross and tangle one with the other, you know it is hardly worthwhile.

You take the total volume of water, the intensity of the fishing, the amount of fish that can be supported and the ratio of success and there is no way the fish can stand up to the pressure they are subjected to. The alternative, of course, is the American system of bringing in a load of fish, dumping them in the river and allowing the people to haul them out. This is probably what we may have to come to in the Province of Alberta. Although I do recognize there is a fantastic number of lakes and areas in the northern part of the province that can be developed for fish.

H owever some of those rivers are a very big disappointment. I think the Norway River, the Wapiti — it seems to me the type of water or the environmental conditions don't seem to lend themselves to producing fish in any great quantity. They are just rivers that run more or less without any fish. So a study could be made of areas like this, to discover whether there is a species of fish that is adaptable. Possibly some contributions by mankind in the matter of changing the environment may create a better area for these fish.

All these are things that can be done and I look forward to better fishing in the future in Alberta. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. DR. WARRACK: Mr. Speaker, speaking to the resolution as the main resolution offered by Dr. McCrimmon, MLA for Ponoka, seconded by Mr. Farran, and at the same time I'd also like to address my remarks to the amendment as suggested by Mrs. Chichak, seconded by Mr. Ghitter. I might say at the outset, Mr.

Speaker, that I feel the amendment is an excellent one in that it has — and I think it is clear from the discussion we've had the pleasure of engaging in today — broadened the issue so that a full range of viewpoints have had the opportunity to be offered. The hon. Member for Pincher Creek-Crowsnest said he enjoyed talking on the resolution and I'd like him to know I enjoyed listening to him talk on the resolution. I'm a bit reluctant, Mr. Speaker, to swallow the whole line as laid out by the hon. Member for St. Paul. Maybe it has something to do with the difference between being a lover and a fighter.

I don't know whether that has something to do with fishing or only people. But I think of a thing that was described to me by a famous fisherman and, a matter of fact, fish-hook maker from one of the rural centres of Alberta, Mr. Len Thompson of Lacombe, with whom I know the hon. Member for Lacombe is very well acquainted. Mr. Thompson, as many people in the Legislature will know, is in the business of making these items and he tells me that his product is of such grand quality that the fish you catch with them are almost as big as you say they are.

It's clear too from the, not necessarily debate, but very informed discussion from many sources today, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. Member, Mr. Chambers, I think, clearly as the angling expert of this House, is the heavyweight. I say that from observing his remarks and moreover observing he is too modest to make such a proclamation himself and that's not a problem everyone in this House has. More seriously, Mr. Speaker, I would also like to say that while I'm no expert on fishing, either sport or commercial, I am much more informed than I

55-2976 ALBERTA HANSARD May 8, 1973 used to be on this, particularly with the help of the hon. Member for Athabasca, Mr. Appleby and also Mr. Hansen who spoke on the resolution as well. I think the resolution as proposed was a strong one — the motion. The amendment makes it even stronger for the reasons I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, because it broadens the scope and that broad scope is what is absolutely essential in policy-making no matter what area one might be wanting to consider.

Whether it's the entire area of rural development, whether it's the broader area of a development strategy for the province, or even broader, a development strategy for Canada, it is essential as a matter of policy that discussions and viewpoints be assessed and melded from the broadest possible range. And I think the strength of the amendment, Mr. Speaker, is that that opportunity is then put before this House. The response to that opportunity has been just excellent from both sides of the House. It has been very helpful for me. I might recount a bit of the background of the fish hatchery in Calgary.

Prior to the present time, the only fish hatchery in Alberta, other than in a national park, was housed within the facilities of the now Canadian Breweries of Alberta Ltd. in Calgary, formerly the Calgary Brewing and Malting Company, and to be more specific, the Cross family of Alberta. This was set up as a public service and one that I think we should take the opportunity to recognize today. Through the years for a very long period of time this was a most essential service that was carried forward by that organization and was available to the people of Alberta as a public service.

The demands for some time now, Mr. Speaker, have exceeded the capacity of that fish hatchery to supply what is needed. On this basis then, the decision came forward to the government of the time that it was going to be essential to add to the production facilities for fish stocking purposes and to add to the capacity there was in the province at the time. Then, of course, the new fish hatchery that is now nearing completion in Calgary was developed. I might add also, Mr. Speaker, that an additional facility which has not been mentioned here today is the Raven River rearing station near Caroline in Alberta.

This is a rearing station where there is a kind of growing out of fish which have been produced in the fish hatchery because, of course, the larger the fish are, the more space and water and so forth they require — also somewhat different conditions. The very limited facilities of the fish hatchery in the province up to now precluded that growing out to yearlings, as they are called, Mr. Speaker. Recognizing that in some instances it is better and more successful to stock the waters of Alberta with yearlings rather than fingerlings, the small trouts that — not only trout, pardon me, Mr.

Member for Pincher Creeek Crowsnest — as you rightfully point out there are far more than just trout as far as the important sports species in Alberta are concerned. So when we are talking in terms of the number of fish hatcheries and where they are located, we could rightfully expand the discussion from the fish hatchery itself, to the arm of the fish hatchery which is the rearing station. The fish hatchery in Calgary is a fish hatchery and rearing station.

But, in addition, there is the Raven River rearing station and the possibility in the future of additional rearing stations being needed; also, of course, the possibility that those rearing stations could be located in different places in Alberta than where the hatcheries themselves are located. So I'd like to make the point, Mr.

Speaker, that we can expand our discussion with respect to fish hatchery facilities from the fish hatchery itself to the possibility of additional and decentralized rearing stations about the province, all as a pattern and system to improve the extent and the quality of that particular service that it's possible to offer to the public. I'd like to draw hon. members' attention also to the name of the fish hatchery located in Calgary and located on what is known as the Pearce estate. The name of the fish hatchery is the Sam Livingston Fish Hatchery and Rearing Station.

I'll not detail, although I could, the reasons why Sam Livingston was chosen as the name for this fish hatchery. Suffice it to say that Sam Livingston was a pioneer in the Calgary area as well as other places including northern Alberta. Sam Livingston was a man who was not only a rancher. He was known as the first dairy farmer in Alberta. He also raised sheep, hogs and vegetables. In that particular instance, the fork of the Bow River and the Elbow River was the location on which this enterprising pioneer, Mr.

Sam Livingston for many, many years lived and produced as an agriculturalist -- not only a rancher with the traditional background that ranchers have in Alberta, but he was also

May 8, 1973 ALBERTA HANSARD 55-2977 one of the very first farmers in Alberta. That's a very special tradition. Two of Sam Livingston's granddaughters live in Calgary. I met them in the course of the naming of the fish hatchery and they are just delightful citizens of Calgary. I thought that human element of interest in this debate would be very useful in describing the fish hatchery background in the city of Calgary.

I might also add that at the initiative of the MLA for Calgary North Hill, Roy Farran, the fish hatchery display area which had been planned was greatly accentuated, greatly increased and greatly improved on a three-way agreement worked out between Canadian Breweries, the City of Calgary and the provincial government. So as planned this will indeed be an even better attraction than the previous production facilities. This will be an even more attractive item for the citizens of Calgary, of Alberta, of Canada and all of our visitors.

That, too, is an area where some improvement has been rendered to the Calgary fish hatchery beyond what had been planned in the first instance. I would like to describe the present fish hatchery situation in Calgary which is that on roughly the week that includes May 1 the first pilot production run, Mr. Speaker, was begun. It was begun with some 60,000 rainbow trout, although utlimately it is planned that the fish hatchery will produce eight different species of fish which will total some 8.6 million fingerlings per year. The present status, Mr.

Speaker, with today being still early in May, is that we are in the midst of the first pilot run. In terms of production for 1973 we will be very, very fortunate if we find it possible to approach a full production capability because of the risk of technical and other difficulties coming about in the gearing of the fish hatchery toward full production. Some unfortunate difficulties did come about in the construction phases of the fish hatchery that delayed its coming into production.

While it had initially been planned that the first production year would be the same year as the last production year at the brewery, as a guard against risk problems in production that normally come about in the beginning of a new operation, construction problems delayed its completion. We are therefore in the position that the only 1973 production will be from the new fish hatchery and there is considerable risk with respect to the percentage of production capacity we will be able to achieve in the very first year.

In addition, one other problem that develops is that while I mentioned the desire for yearlings in sport fish beyond simply fingerlings, we will not be able to reach as high production levels of those we would like at as early a date as we would like, Mr. Speaker, because there is such a demand for fingerlings. To reach that particular demand with our limited supply precludes the use of the facilities for growing them out towards yearlings and it may be as late as spring, 1975 before we are in a position to have a substantial supply of yearling sport fish. The trial runs then, Mr. Speaker, are on now.

We are crossing our fingers for production in 1973. We recognize the risks. Finally, on the present hatchery situation in Calgary, Mr. Speaker, I point out that the present plan is to officially open the Sam Livingstone Fish Hatchery and Rearing Station in Calgary on June 20 of this year. A number of questions, Mr. Speaker, have been posed with respect to the matter of the fish hatchery in Calgary, its size, its location, its cost and the other facilities