Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 27 (38th Legislature, 3rd Session)

38-3-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LVI No. 27 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 11, 2005

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thom pson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C.

FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon.

Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon.

Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

1161 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 11, 2005 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PETITIONS Provincial Road 355 Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The unsafe conditions of PR No. 355 from the western edge of Minto municipality to PR No. 270 (including the hill out of the Minnedosa valley), poses an undue risk to Manitobans who must travel on this roadway.

The steady stream of traffic on this stretch of PR No. 355, which includes automobiles such as "B" train semi-tractor trailers, mail delivery vehicles and school buses, make the roadway in its current state dangerously impassable. Continued expansion of the regional economy in livestock development, grain storage and trans- portation and the proposed Mohawk Plant, puts additional strain on PR No. 355 and creates further safety concerns for motorists. PR No. 355 experiences an increased risk in traffic flow during the spring season when there are weight restrictions on surrounding provincial trunk highways.

For several years, representatives of six municipal corporations, as well as ad hoc citizen group have been actively lobbying the provincial government to upgrade and reconstruct the stretch of PR No. 355 at issue. Manitobans and visitors to the province deserve a better rural highway infrastructure. We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux) to consider upgrading PR No. 355 from the western edge of the R.M. of Minto to PR No. 270 (including the hill out of the Minnedosa valley). To request the Premier of Manitoba (Mr.

Doer) to consider supporting the said initiative to ensure the safety of our Manitobans and all Canadians who travel along Manitoba highways. This petition is signed by Bob McNabb, Glen Crawley, Ken Sharpe and others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our Rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. * (13:35) Ambulance Service Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: In May 2004, 46-year-old Peter Krahn suffered a heart attack while exercising in East St.

Paul and was pronounced dead just under an hour later after being transported to the Concordia Hospital in Winnipeg. Reports show that it took nearly 18 minutes for an ambulance to arrive for Mr. Krahn. The Interlake Regional Health Authority claims that 21 minutes is an acceptable emergency response time,

whereas the City of Winnipeg uses a benchmark of 4 minutes. Ambulance coverage for East St. Paul is provided from Selkirk, which is almost 25 kilometres away. The municipalities of East St. Paul and West St. Paul combined have over 12 000 residents. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows:

1162 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 To request the provincial government to consider providing East St. Paul with local ambulance service which would service both East and West St. Paul. To request the provincial government to consider improving the way that ambulance service is supplied to all Manitobans by utilizing tech- nologies such as GPS in conjunction with a Medical Transportation Co-ordination Centre (MTCC) which will ensure that patients receive the nearest ambulance in the least amount of time.

To request the provincial government to consider ensuring that appropriate funding is provided to maintain superior response times and sustainable services. Signed by Boris Pawluk, T. Pawluk, Z. Pawluk and many others. Minimum Sitting Days for Manitoba Legislature Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The Manitoba Legislature sat for only 35 days in 2003. In 2004, there were 55 sitting days. The number of sitting days has a direct impact on the issue of public accountability.

The Legislative Assembly provides the best forum for all MLAs to debate and ask questions of the government, and it is critical that all MLAs be provided the time needed in order for them to cover constituent and party duties. Establishing a minimum number of sitting days could prevent the government of the day from limiting the rights of opposition members from being able to ask questions. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba to consider recognizing the need to sit for a minimum of 80 days in any given calendar year.

Signed by Azelvita Navarro, J. Castiloo and A. Goze. * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS VE Day Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Yes, I have a statement for the House, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, this morning we launched a Book of Thanks at the Legislative Building in celebration of the 60th anniversary of Victory Europe, VE Day, marking the end of World War II.

With this year being declared by the federal government as the Year of the Veteran, I had the privilege this morning, along with the federal Minister of Veterans Affairs and the mayor of Winnipeg, to sign the Book of Thanks that will be available for all Manitobans to sign in the front lobby of the Legislature until the end of May. This book will also be made available on-line, so all Manitobans can participate.

In addition to the Book of Thanks which will be placed for permanent display at the International Peace Garden as part of ou r 9/11 ceremony later this year, the Province is also proud to participate in a number of events and activities to recognize the Year of the Veteran. Many of you have probably noticed the beautiful commemorative banners gracing the walkway in front of the Legislative Building. Along with these banners, there will be a flower bed in the front of the building to carry a floral display logo of the Year of the Veteran.

On May 3, we will be hosting a number of veterans here at the Legislative Building to again say words of thanks to our veterans. On May 8, VE Day, we will offer a freedom of the province to the veterans at the Legislative Building which will be followed by a veteran's parade. After the parade all the veterans and their families will take

part in a reception at the Via Rail Station. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all Manitobans, let me say how proud we are of all the veterans who have so valiantly represented this nation and those who are

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1163 standing tall for Canada today all around the globe. I urge all Manitobans to celebrate and give thanks to our veterans. Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me today to rise to respond to the Premier's statement and address the contributions of our veterans. I would hope that this issue is as important to all Manitobans.

We know it is important to all of us in the Legislature, and we hope that as these events unfold in future that there is an opportunity for all of us to be at these events because they are very, very important. It was very important to us on this side of the House that the member from Lakeside introduced a private member's bill to allow the poppy to be proudly designated on the licence plates of our veter- ans so that those of us could pay tribute throughout Manitoba. I salute the memb er from Lakeside for his private member's bill to allow that to happen.

In the six years of conflict, Canada has enlisted more than one million men and women in the armed forces, and of those, over 55 000 were injured and 45 000 gave their lives to fight for peace and freedom. On May 8, we pay tribute to those men and women from Manitoba, our nation and allied countries that contributed to the war effort at home or overseas and gave so much for democracy, peace and freedom that we enjoy today. Two days ago marked the 88th anniversary of the Battle of Vimy Ridge. This battle was a huge victory for those allies during the Great War in which so many made the ultimate sacrifice.

Moreover, the Battle of Vi my Ridge was arguably one of the most important turning points in Canadian history, as it marked the first time during the Great War that all four Canadian divisions with soldiers from every province fought side by side. The victory helped shape Canada's identity and give us an overwhelming sense of pride. It is important that, in commemorating VE Day, we remember all of our veterans from the Great War, the Second World War, Korea and other conflicts who stood for freedom and fought so valiantly for our nation. Mr.

Speaker, this collection in the lobby reminds us all of the importance of self-sacrificing acts that Canadian soldiers and their families have so bravely endured. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the Premier's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, it is fitting that today we recognize the contribution that veterans have made to Manitoba and to Canada over the First World War, the Second World War, the Korean War and, in fact, on many other occasions when, though they have not necessarily been fighting wa rs, they have been there to stand up and serve as peacekeepers, serve to prevent wars and that surely is something which we should be very proud of. In the front of the Legislature today we have a display of many of the medals including, for example, the Victoria Cross.

We should be and are indeed very proud as Manitobans that we have had several Manitobans, including Andrew Mynarski, as one example, who have been awarded the Victoria Cross for their incredible sacrifices and contributions. I join with the leaders of the other two parties today to say thank you to veterans. Thank you for your contributions over many years to Manitoba and to Canada. * (13:45) 2005 Juno Awards Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House.

I would like to congratulate everyone involved in making Winnipeg's 2005 Juno Awards an unparalleled success proving once again that the people of Manitoba know how to host and celebrate national events on a scale that few can match. From the Manitoba Social on March 31 at the Winnipeg Convention Centre to the televised Juno Awards broadcast on April 3 at the MTS Centre, the city of Winnipeg and the people of Manitoba welcomed our visitors to a non-stop celebration of

1164 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 Canadian music. The Winnipeg Host Committee's popular slogan, The Flatter the Land, The Harder the Rock, more than lived up to its billing. Mr. Speaker, before I acknowledge some of the people who worked behind the scenes, I would like to extend my congratulations to the Wailin' Jennys upon winning a 2005 Juno Award for their album 40 Days under the Roots and Traditional Album of the Year category.

This year, Manitoba artists received a total of 10 Juno nominations in a variety of categories, a true testament to the wealth of talent that exists in Manitoba's music industry. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also extend our sincere congratulations to the Winnipeg host committee chaired by Mr. Kevin Walters. Joining Mr. Walters on the Host Committee were Ginette Lavack, Sam Baardman, Kenny Boyce, Chad Horrill, Kevin Donnelly, Carole Vivier, Lisa Blake, Errol Ranville, Shirley Stimpson, Alissa Brandt, Karen Goossen, Michael Benson and Hugh McFadyen.

There are many others that served on sub- committees such as the Francophone Committee and the Music Education Committee. Their contributions were essential and important. We thank them for their effort. Mr. Speaker, I would like to also recognize another group who brought something to the Juno Awards that was long overdue. For the first time, Aboriginal people, their music and their culture enjoyed a level of profile and recognition beyond those of any previous Juno Awards. The challenge now exists for future host cities to acknowledge the cultural contributions of the Aboriginal peoples of Canada.

Congratulations to the Manitoba Aboriginal Music Host Committee chaired by Mr. Errol Ranville. The committee included Lisa Meeches, David McLeod, Curtis Jonnie, Sharon Redsky, Jessie Green and Jacquie Black. Although Aboriginal participation could be seen throughout the weekend slate of events, the April 1 Honouring Ceremony and Juno Fest Aboriginal Music Showcase at the Burton Cummings Theatre was a remarkable evening of music and celebration that we can all be proud of.

I would like to also acknowledge our colleagues at the City of Winnipeg and the federal government's Department of Western Economic Diversification. Not only did we collaborate as sponsors, but we also worked together to achieve the same common goals for the Junos. I would especially like to recognize the extra effort the City put into the services they provided to the event. Downtown Winnipeg has never looked so good in April after a long and hard winter. I have saved my final acknowledgments for a very worthy group, the hundreds of volunteers who came forward to help organizers achieve their objectives.

When it comes to volunteers for major events, Manitoba enjoys an outstanding tradition of meeting the needs of any event of any size. To the hundreds of Juno volunteers, I would like to extend a heartfelt thank you for their dedicated efforts. I would like to also thank the honourable members for this opportunity to reco gnize and acknowledge the success of Winnipeg's 2005 Juno Awards. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (13:50) Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to join with the minister in extending congratulations to all the participants, the hosts, City of Winnipeg, the Province, the federal government for the wonderful presentati on at the Juno Awards. I had an opportunity to get to some of the events. I must say that some of the music I was familiar with and some of it, well, I guess, age is creeping up on me. I do not remember some of that, but it was very, very interesting to be part of the celebrations, some of the musicians and the tremendous amount of effort that went into it. Mr.

Speaker, it bodes well for our great city of Winnipeg and Manitoba and Canada, the extent of the hosting of this wonderful event here in Winnipeg, one of the few times it comes to western Canada. I commend the minister for going after the Junos and having it here at the new MTS Centre. The awards that were presented, we had a wonderful time there at the dinner and at the reception. I must say that there was anticipation that Neil Young would come, but, unfortunately, he had an operation. We extend our best wishes, and it looks like he came through it in flying colours.

We have tremendous musicians, entertainers here in Manitoba: Randy Bachman, Neil Young, as I mentioned, Burton Cummings. Just a few of the other ones: Tracy Dahl, the Guess Who, the list goes on and on. We are truly fortunate. I can say, Mr. Speaker, I do remember some of these musicians

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1165 from when they used to play in community clubs, and I used to attend some of those recitals and concerts. At that time, their names were not as famous as they are today. I do want to extend congratulations to all the volunteers. I saw an awful lot of volunteers that were involved with a lot of the events and functions. Everything went smoothly. In the whole presentation, there was a tremendous pride, and it was a tremendous feeling that we had put on a good show.

I congratulate all the people that were involved: the host from Winnipeg, the host through the Aboriginal community and the wonderful show that they put on at the Burton Cummings Theatre. It was something, I think, that all Winnipeggers and all Manitobans identified with. A good job, a good show. Well done. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, the hosting of the Junos and the occurrence of the Junos here in Winnipeg was a wonderful time, I think, for all Winnipeggers and indeed all Manitobans. It was an exciting time to celebrate the music that we have in Manitoba, and though it was only the Wailin' Jennys who received the award, there was an incredible breadth and depth of musicians, artists and bands from Manitoba. We saw that there at the social through to the wind-up celebrations at the MTS Ce ntre on April 3.

It was indeed a fitting end to the whole Juno weekend to have a whole array of Manitoba singers on the stage and contributing to Manitoba music as the wind-up to the event. I think, we need to, as the minister has indicated, recognize in particular the growing contribution of Aboriginal artists, many who were there, and there are many others who were not necessarily playing there but who are contributing increasingly to the music scene in Manitoba.

I think, as we bask in the glory of having the Junos here, it is also a time to remember the importance of music to all of us, from music in the schools, all the way through to the importance of music for the rest of our lives. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: I guess it is safe to say the honourable Member for Southdale is still looking for Stompin Tom. * (13:55) Flood Conditions Hon. Stan Struthers (Act ing Minister of Water Stewardship): I have a ministerial statement on behalf of the Ministry of Water Stewardship.

I rise to present a statement, an update, to the House regard- ing Manitoba's flood situation so far this spring. On January 26 of this year, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba Water Stewardship presented the first of three spring flood outlooks. At that time, the Hydrologic Forecast Centre of the Water Science and Management Branch presented three possible flood- ing scenarios. The scenarios, or projections, were based on watershed conditions such as soil moisture and snow cover as well as on three future weather scenarios.

The future weather scenarios assumed favourable, normal and unfavourable weather conditions from the forecast date through to the spring run-off period. The same formula was used for further outlooks presented in February and March. Early modelling indicated a chance of a 1997 flood with very unfavourable conditions. Due to more favourable conditions, those chances have been reduced close to zero. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to report that so far conditions have been favourable. Heavy snow or rain storms have not occurred, and the rate of melt has been gradual.

As a result, flooding has been limited mainly to agricultural flooding, and only a few homes have been threatened. Prudent operation of the flood control structures, such as the Portage Diversion that sends Assiniboine River water north to Lake Manitoba and the Red River Floodway, have maintained a safe level of water flowing through the Red in downtown Winnipeg. The Province has also used a portable ice- breaking machine ca lled the Amphibex to break up ice jams that formed in the Breezy Point area north

1166 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 of Winnipeg and at the Redwood Bridge within the city of Winnipeg. We are engaged in discussions on the future use of this designed-in-Canada machine. Mr. Speaker, the flow of the Red River continues to decrease and has crested from Emerson to Winnipeg. Despite today's rain, it is expected to continue its gradual decline to normal summer levels. Levels in the city of Winnipeg will remain between 17 and 18 feet for the next 10 days as the gates of the floodway control structure are gradually lowered.

Lowering of the gates is necessary to prevent the Red River level at the floodway inlet from exceeding its natural level. The crest in downtown Winnipeg was 19.2 feet on April 6. The flow in the Red River Floodway this morning was 12 200 cubic feet per second, while the total approaching the floodway inlet was 54 300 cubic feet per second. Levels of the Assiniboine River from Austin to Winnipeg have been quite steady in recent days. Portage Diversion flows will also be gradually reduced later this week as flows and levels in the city of Winnipeg subside.

Levels of the Assiniboine River remain high from Miniota and flooding of valley lands from Miniota to Brandon will continue for one to two weeks. Flooding continues along the Souris River from Coulter to Hartney and on the Pembina River from Rock Lake to Swan Lake, but no further rises are expected. Because weather cannot be predicted with absolute certainty, the Province of Manitoba maintained a high level of emergency preparedness for the 2005 spring flood.

The Flood Central Task Team was struck, comprising the departments of Water Stewardship, Intergovernmental Affairs, Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization, Health, Labour and Immigration, Office of the Fire Commissioner, Transportation, Agriculture, Conser- vation and Communication Services Manitoba to provide a co-ordinated provincial response. Teleconference calls were held with affected municipalities to review flood forecasts and to discuss flood preparedness at the local level. Mr.

Speaker, flood preparation and flood-fighting efforts that have occurred to date include Water Stewardship maintaining a 2.3 million sandbag inventory, Water Stewardship providing incident command training for 24 employees. A Water Stewardship flood- fighting organization structure is in place having the technical and management capability of fighting a 1997-magnitude flood. An enhanced monitoring network was installed on the Red River north of Winnipeg to better monitor ice conditions and provid e early warning of ice- jamming.

Equipment was on standby on the Fisher River to facilitate ice passage to minimize flooding on the Peguis and Fisher River First Nations. Due to the slow spring melt conditions, the equipment was not used. Both First Nations were retained to perform brush and tree removal in the Fisher River to alleviate flooding due to ice-jamming. * (14:00) Water Stewardship staff was proactive in removing ice blockages in provincial drains to protect residential properties. The Department of Transportation and Government Services maintained road service to all affected communities.

Some road closures were in place due to localized flooding. Mr. Speaker, as all Manitobans and members of this House know, our environment can be quite unpredictable. Using the most up-to-date, predictive technology models, scientific and historical knowl- edge and our collective experience, the Province has survived another spring melt with minimal widespread flooding. We will continue to watch and assist the areas of the province that continue the high water levels. Mr.

Speaker, the Province will continue to prepare for spring floods using flood-control structures such as the Red River Floodway, the Portage Diversion, the Shellmouth Reservoir and the ring dikes protecting 20 southern Manitoba com- munities. We will also continue efforts to ensure all environmental concerns are fairly addressed as we proceed with our partners to expand the capacity of the Red River Floodway. I would like to thank the municipalities and provincial staff who have worked diligently throughout this spring. Thank you very much. Mr.

Jack Penner (Emerson): I want to thank the honourable member for making this statement on flooding on behalf of the Minister of Water Stewardship (Mr. Ashton). I believe this report is clearly an indication that what previous governments under the Roblin

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1167 administration took on as an initiative, both on the Assiniboine when building the dams on the Assiniboine, creating Lake of the Prairies, is a demonstration of what can be done to prevent flooding. I also believe the floodway, that the then- Roblin administration undertook to construct, has been clearly again a demonstration of what can be done if a government does take significant, positive action to cause less of an impact to communities such as Winnipeg and others.

I believe the Portage Diversion is another indication of when an op eration such as that is operated properly, it can have an environmental impact that is positive all around. I want to however say, Mr. Speaker, that there are occasions when flooding does occur, sometimes even in areas that have not been identified in this report. I know of one home that was totally flooded in the St-Lazare area, where a highway culvert was plugged and was not opened in time. It caused the home to flood which has been without power, I understand, for almost a week now, without services, without sewage services.

I believe that government does have a responsibility to ensure that proper care will be taken and that compensation will probably apply to these people as well. I know that there is also an area at St. Jean, Manitoba, between Morris and St. Jean, which historically floods. As we speak today, it is currently deep under water. Some of the backup that occurs into some of the communities, we will never be able to stop because of the way either the thaw or the run- off occurs in this province.

However, I do believe today is an opportunity to reflect on what a government could do further if they truly were serious about mitigating flooding in the long term. I believe the building of the Holland Dam, I believe the building of the Souris Dam, I believe building two dams on the Pembina River would have a major impact on mitigating flooding in the province of Manitoba, but it does take a government that will be willing to take the initiative to do those kinds of things. I believe we asked, and I want to say in closing, Mr.

Speaker, that we ask this government to ensure that those who have been hurt this year again by flooding will be compensated properly, and those landowners that have constantly had their land under water should be recogniz ed for the damages that have occurred and are occurring on an annual basis. Therefore, we ask this Premier (Mr. Doer) and his government that they will take proper steps to ensure that all communities and all citizens are ensured that flooding will be mitigated to the best of their ability. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the minister for the statement on the situation with regard to flooding. We, in the Liberal Party, are pleased as most of the other members are here that the flooding problems have been so few this year and notwithstanding that there are clearly some areas that could be better addressed, I think that we can all be happy as Manitobans that we have not had any more problems with flooding than we have had to date. I want, on this occasion, to acknowledge– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr.

Gerrard: There is lots of life in the Liberals yet, I tell you. Mr. Speaker, I was wanting to just congratulate the government for the use of the boat because the Amphibex, the machine to break up the ice, was something that Liberals have been calling for for some time. I am glad that you got to work and started to use it, and I hope it will be the start of being able to use it in many years in the future. Thank you. ORAL QUESTIONS Crocus Fund Protection for Investors Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans are very troubled by what they lear ned in a statement of alle- gations released last week by the Manitoba Securities Commission. This NDP government, through their government-appointed representative on the Crocus board, they knew that the valuation sub-committee was scheduled to meet monthly. They knew that

1168 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 between April 2004 and September 2004, there were no meetings. They knew that the portfolio needed to be adjusted downward by approximately $15 million. They knew that there was an amended prospectus in October that was issued. Now that the public has this information, will the Premier please explain to the more than 33 000 Manitobans who have retirement savings invested in Crocus why he sat on his hands and did nothing?

Will he tell Manitobans in the House today what steps he will take to give them even the slightest hope that he will start to do something and that he finally has their best interests at heart? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Manitoba Securities Commission has reported last week as the member opposite has indicated. They have documented a number of concerns which are, as the member opposite pointed out, in the allegation stage. Those issues will be dealt with by the independent quasi-judicial body called the Manitoba Securities Commission.

The provincial auditor is also investigating on a number of issues that he or she feels appropriate in the Crocus Fund of Manitoba. I can tell the people of Manitoba, inform the people of Manitoba, that when we have been provided recommendations from the Manitoba Securities Commission in the past or the Manitoba provincial Auditor General in the past, we have acted upon those recommendations, consistent with the prospectus, consistent with the legislation. Mr.

Speaker, arising from the two investigations, I can assure members of the public that any deficiencies of the legislation, particularly legislation that was introduced in this House in 1992 that arises from the Auditor's Report that we will certainly make changes that are appropriate. * (14:10) Mr. Murray: In the Manitoba Securities statement of allegations, it says, and I quote from it, "On Thursday, November 18, 2004, at a special meeting of the board, the board r eceived a

summary of the risk analysis which suggested a further write-down of at least $23.5 million that was imminent." Mr. Speaker, $23.5 million. Manitobans are well aware that this Premier has a representative on the board of Crocus, Mr. Speaker. What they do not know is why this Premier will not stand up for the more than 33 000 Manitobans who have invested their hard-earned money into Crocus. Will the Premier explain why he did nothing in September, October, November and December? He knew, and he did nothing. When are you going to stand up for those 33 000 Manitobans, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, we do follow the advice and recommendations from the Manitoba Securities Commission. The Manitoba Securities Commission reviewed the practices of promoting the Manitoba Crocus Fund in paycheques issued to civil servants, a practice that was developed in 1997. We were alerted to that early on in our term. The Manitoba Securities Commission stated that that was contrary to the Crocus perspective. The Crocus perspective very basically says that securi ties administrators of the government make no recommendation concerning an investment and assume no liability or obligation to any investor of the fund.

We terminated, Mr. Speaker, the promotions that were in government paycheques that were emanating from members opposite consistent with the Securities Commission findings. The members opposite will know that the legislation dealing with the Crocus Fund and the management dealing with Crocus Fund was established in the early nineties. In fact, we were ridiculed by members opposite for saying that no NDP government had set up a venture capital fund with labour. Mr.

Speaker, the fund was stated by former Minister Manness to be a fund that would be managed by people outside of the civil service, outside of the government. It would be a fund administered by members of the public and we have honoured that. As I said, any specific recom- mendation, whether it is the 1998 Provincial Auditor's Report or the Manitoba Securities Commission report asking us to suspend promotions in paycheques, we have acted upon. Mr.

Murray: I would like to quote back to this Premier what his minister at the time in 2001, the minister responsible for the Crocus Fund, said, and I quote from Hansard, "Also, it is important that the government monitor the operations of labour- sponsored funds to ensure that they are adhering to the provisions of the legislation. In this regard, important new reporting and compliance provisions

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1169 are being added to The Crocus Investment Fund Act. These provisions provide audit and inspection powers as well as powers to facilitate obtaining information from the fund, Mr. Speaker." Mr. Speaker, it is well known and well documented that between September 24 and November 12 of last year, that more than $255,000 in Crocus shares were sold to hardworking Manitobans even though the board and this government knew that the share price was over inflated.

On the heels of the most explosive federal Liberal government's ad-scam scandal and on the heels of today's appalling revelation by the Winnipeg Free Press that a member of this Premier's Cabinet misled and withheld information, this Premier should be very careful what he says in this House. Will the Premier just explain to the more than 33 000 Manitobans who have invested their retirement savings in Crocus why he did nothing, and will he tell them what he is prepared to do today? Mr.

Doer: The member opposite will know that the board of Crocus Fund was established in a memorandum of agreement between the Manitoba Federation of Labour and one Eric Stefanson in 1992, Mr. Speaker. That formed the genesis of the legislation and– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have further, as has been report ed properly, provided for greater authority of the provincial Auditor General.

In fact, that builds upon the 1992 recommendation and memorandum of agreement between the Province of Manitoba and the provincial auditor's office at the time where there is an agreement for oversight provisions on the Crocus Fund. In 1998 the Auditor reported to the Legislature on venture capital and calling it a retail fund similar to mutual funds. He also reported on other vision capital decisions made by the former government. We have tried to work very diligently on many, many investments, Mr.

Speaker, such as the past practice on Isobord that was initiated by members opposite, Winnport and many other projects that had a negative impact on the taxpayers of Manitoba when members opposite were in government. Having said that, we will pay attention to the Securities Commission final deliberations. Mr. Speaker, I would point out there have been decisions made by the Securities Commission before. In fact, Wellington West was dealing with shares and sales of shares with the Manitoba Telephone System. Those are quasi-judicial decisions.

We will be dealing with those as we should, and we will be dealing with the recommendations of the Securities Commission. Crocus Fund Appointment of New Director Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, there is something that this NDP government can do right now to improve this situation. This government can use its authority to appoint, and to appoint immediately, a new director to look after the interests of not only the unit holders, but of all taxpayers in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, this fund an d this situation needs a director appointed by this government who is focussed, a director who is professional, and a director who is not conflicted in any way. Most importantly, the unit holders and the taxpayers of Manitoba, this government owes them the oppor- tunity to have a director on that board who is not distracted by the threat of a law suit or subject to the serious allegations which we are seeing coming from the Manitoba Securities Commission. Mr. Waugh is none of these.

I would ask the minister if he would see today that a new director is appointed immedi- ately to stand up for the unit holders and for the taxpayers. Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Industry, Economic Development and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind the member opposite that what the board member's responsibility to do is to look after the shareholder and that is what our representative has done. I would not throw allegations wildly–I think that what we have done is followed the proper procedure.

We are going through and having the regulator go in and make an investigation, and myself and the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger) has allowed the proper regulators to do that. We have made sure that we have an independent person who is a long-term civil servant, the

1170 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 government's representative on the board, and I might point out that he has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. He has a confidentiality agree- ment with the fund and he does not report directly to government. He reports to the fund shareholders and he represents the fund shareholders. I believe that it is proper to have the proper regulatory body investigate appropriately. Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, the minister ignores the fact that the government owns two million shares and are a very significant shareholder in this fund.

The minister ignores the fact that it was he and the Minister of Finance who said the Auditor General did not have to go in in December and did not issue the letter until some time in February.

But more importantly, there is an opportunity right now for this NDP government to improve the situation at Crocus, to look out for the unit holders and for the taxpayers, and they can do that by appointing, immediately, a new director, one who is competent, one who has the ability and the experience to look after the fund and the situation that it finds itself in, mostly as a result of the lack of oversight of this government. I would ask the minister, simply, will he do the right thing today.

Will he appoint a new director to look after the interests of the unit holders and the taxpayers of Manitoba, who sadly are going to lose a lot of money as a result of his government's sitting on the sidelines and sitting on their hands? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite cannot have it both ways. When the opposition set up the fund in 1992, they made high praise of the fact that it was independent of government, that it reported to an independent board and that we were not politically involved. That is what the Finance Minister said and that is what the Minister of Industry said.

They crowed the fact that it was supposed to be independent of government. Now, Mr. Speaker, the same opposition that set up the fund is yelling that we should be involved in the day-to-day operations. I say that what we do is we allow the board to do its job and we allow the independent commissions to do their jobs. We allow it. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot crow for us to run the fund and then set it up so that it is independent, away from government. * (14:20) Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, we have never asked this government to run this fund, and we never would because they are incompeten t.

What we are asking t h i s g o v e r n m e n t t o d o i s l i v e u p t o w h a t t h e y s a i d they would do in 2001, which is to monitor the fund. That is what they said they would do, and because they have not, because of their appalling lack of oversight, we find ourselves in a situation where sadly, Manitobans are going to lose a lot of money. This NDP government's unwillingness to replace a director who was distracted by the threat of personal financial ruin and is subject to serious allegations by the Manitoba Securities Commission indicates that they are deeply tied up in this sordid mess.

Their inaction is bad for unit holders, it is bad for taxpayers and it is bad for Mr. Waugh. Why is this government hanging Mr. Waugh out to dry? The situation could be improved right now by appointing a new, experienced and well-qualified director. Why will the NDP government not do it? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, once again, the member opposite has lots of bluster and noise but very little accuracy. Number one, if th ey were worried about the $2 million that the government had invested in Crocus, why did they write it off in their term of office? That is the first question.

The second one is, after writing off the loan, or the Class A shareholders, they wrote it off. They did not have the faith that Crocus was ever going to pay it back, but more important to that fact, what we have done is the appropriate thing for the shareholders. We have allowed the security, in fact, encouraged the Manitoba Securities Commission to go in and make an independent investigation. We have followed their advice in 2001 when we did not continue with the sending of information sheets and paycheques which was against the securities regulations.

We continue to work with the regulators to ensure that any inappropriate action will be discontinued. Crocus Fund Appointment of New Director Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): The 33 000 unit holders, the investors in the Crocus Fund, need to be protected from this NDP. The NDP should have appointed a member of the board who would look after the best interests of the investors.

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1171 Instead, the NDP appointed a board member who allowed sales of shares in Crocus after he knew and after the NDP knew that the underlying value of the fund was written down by more than $23 million. Will the Minister of Finance stand up for Crocus investors? Will he appoint a member of the board of directors who will, in fact, protect the 33 000 Crocus Fund investors? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, when we improved The Auditor General's Act in Manitoba, we put a specific provision in which allowed the Auditor General of Manitoba to pursue tax credit dollars provided by the government anywhere they went in Manitoba, including venture capital funds. This is a provision that was never in the Auditor's act before. Our government put it in place. Our government empowered the Auditor to chase down tax credits wh erever they went in Manitoba to see that they were probably used. These guys had 11 years to do it and they did nothing. We did it. That is No. 1.

Number 2, the Manitoba Securities Commission, which is a quasi-judicial body, has been completely unfettered in its investigation of what is going on there. They have done an examination and put their statement of what they consider to be the facts on the record in a timely fashion. Mr. Hawranik: Mr. Speaker, I asked the Finance Minister to focus on the question.

It is a respon- sibility of this NDP to ensure the investors, the 33 000 unit holders, that the government appointee will act in their best interests, and not to conclude with the NDP by continuing to sell Crocus Fund shares after they knew that the value of the fund was written down by more than $23 million. I ask the Minister of Finance this: Will he now appoint a director to the board of Crocus who will protect the 33 000 Crocus Fund investors from the NDP? Mr.

Selinger: One of the outstanding characteristics of the members opposite is they take allegations, they act as judge, jury and prosecutor, and draw their own conclusions before the due process has unfolded. There are allegations out there. They have been posted in the public domain as a matter of public record. Due process requires that anybody that has been the subject of an allegation by the Manitoba Securities Commission has a full and complete chance to respond to that. Our job is to let them.

That the Securities Commission operates without fear or favour is to allow the respondents to respond without fear or favour. Members opposite continue to use authoritarian tactics to override the quasi-judicial process which is supposed to operate independently in the public interest. Crocus Fund Ron Waugh Legal Fees Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, the Crocus unit holders, the 33 000 investors in the fund, are being forced to pay the legal fees of the directors of Crocus who are facing allegations by the Manitoba Securities Commission. Ron Waugh is the NDP appointee for the Crocus board.

I ask the Minister of Finance this: Who will pay for the legal fees of Ron Waugh? Will it be the 33 000 investors in Crocus or, since he is the NDP appointee, will it be all Manitobans? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, when government is involved in appointing anybody to any body that is acting as a government representative, whether they are acting on behalf of the shareholders or otherwise, as is the case here, and they are named in a legal action, it is usually the government that supports that member with respect to any litigation that they have to sustain.

So, if any member of a government is named in a legal action, the government provides them support as a government appointee, and that will likely be the case in this event. Hydra House Government's Awareness of Misspending Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Morris. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Morris has the floor. Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We have confirmed that the former Minister of Family Services knew about the prob- lems at Hydra House as early as May 3, 2000. The former minister, who is now the Minister of Health (Mr.

Sale), is on record indicating that allegations

1172 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 were brought to his attention in November of 2000, but there is a six-month credibility gap here. He knew a full six months prior. Mr. Speaker it is apparent the minister lied to Manitobans. Why did he deliberately hide the truth? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The words "liar," "lied" have never been accepted by this Chamber. I will give the honourable member an opportunity to withdraw that comment, the word "lied" or "liar." Mrs. Taillieu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I withdraw. Mr. Speaker: Thank you very much.

That should take care of the matter. Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to receive the question from the member opposite. It gives me the opportunity to clarify for the House what exactly it is we are discussing here. The complaints that the member is referring to were not in the nature of those that were received in November of 2000, which resulted in the AG's review. These complaints we are dealing with process from a newly implemented respite program.

The concerns actually came previous to this government coming to power, so they were again concerns that were raised previous to September of 1999. * (14:30) Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, how do we know what the minister is saying is true? Why does she not table the letters that she received in May of 2000, and actually I think it was April of 2000? Mr. Speaker, this government did know about misspending at Hydra Hous e as early as May of 2000, if not earlier. And yet, the former minister claims he only found out in November of 2000.

Misspending during this time could have been redirected to families and people, the most vulnerable people in our society. When did the former minister become aware of the misspending at Hydra House? Was it May or was it November as he stated on the record? Ms. Melnick: Again, in dealing with the nature of the complaints that were raised in May 2000 around the newly implemented respite program, Mr. Speaker, the department received the complaints. There was a procedure followed where both the complainant and Hydra House were dealt with.

The issue was resolved in that the department found they did have to tighten some of their policies around this newly implemented program. They took that action. The policies were in fact tightened. Both the complainant and Hydra House were informed of the actions that now had to be taken around the policies of the newly implemented respite program that had nothing to do with the complaints that were received in November 2000. I would point out perhaps the commonality here is that these were concerns of what had happened during the administration of the previous government. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr.

Speaker, there is a credibility gap here. This government knew in May of 2000 there were allegations of Hydra House and they covered it up. We need the truth. Who, on that side of the House, can tell us the truth? They are just covering up information. The Minister of Family Services said on November 24, 2004, and I quote, "We gave full access to all information to the Auditor General." I ask the minister was all information surrounding Hydra House given to the Auditor General. Ms. Melnick: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I will remind the member again we are not sitting too far apart and perhaps instead of shouting, listening might help to clarify the facts on this. The allegations from May 2000 were around a respite program. The allegations from November 2000 dealt with what we found in the AG's report. The AG was allowed to set up an office within the offices of Family Services. There was disclosure of all the information. Again, we are talking about two completely separate incidents. The first was dealt with through policy tightening within the department. Everything was communicated to the concerned bodies.

The second is that we received the report of the Auditor General. We are implementing those recommen- dations including, Mr. Speaker, the service purchase agreements that were neglected under the previous administration.

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1173 Hydra House Government's Awareness of Misspending Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, if the minister does not like people raising their voices, let me be very clear and very precise. The Auditor General was not made aware of this letter that goes back to May. Why was this government attempting to cover up that information? Hon. Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Again, Mr. Speaker, there was no attempt to cover up any information.

There were attempts in both cases to deal with the concerns that were raised, to look at how to better enforce making sure these concerns do not reoccur. In the first instance, it was the development of policy around a newly implemented respite program. In the second, it was receiving the recommendations from the Auditor General's report to clear up the mess that had been left by the previous administration. Mr. Cummings: This is extremely serious. The minister seems only too happy to try and avoid answering the question.

What was so seriously wrong that they were prepared to cover up this information when they said they were being totally open and providing all information to the Auditor? Ms. Melnick: All information was provided to the Auditor as was appropriate under the misspending of funds which occurred as a result of the cutting of the Agency Accountability Unit in '93, '94, Mr. Speaker. It took awhile to realize what the concerns were. We have reimplemented the Agency Accountability and Support Unit. We have shared all the information with the Auditor General in the case that the members are referring to.

Otherwise, we have shared the information with both the complainant and Hydra House. We have shared the information with the appropriate bodies in both situations. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a common theme starting to appear in this government that in desperation they will cover up and mislead where necessary. Mr. Speaker, it would appear that this government was desperate enough to not consider information that should have probably gone forward for further scrutiny by th e Auditor.

I would simply ask this: Does this minister or any of her colleagues have other information they would like to share with the Auditor and with the public? Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, I have pointed out all these allegations came during the time of the previous administration. Information to share with the public is that it does not make sense that we would take steps to cover up their mess, and we did not. Tataskweyak Cree First Nation Hydro Payment Investigation Mrs.

Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): We have learned that $14.5 million has flowed to the chief and council at Split Lake from Manitoba Hydro over the last two years to discuss the agreement in principle for Gull-Keeyask with nothing to show for the $14.5 million. Mr. Speaker, community members and Manitoba Hydro ratepayers are asking for answers. Can the minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro provide a detailed accounting of where the $14.5 million went? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr.

Speaker, we have an opportunity in this province to both develop our hydro resources in the North and to deal with a serious situation where there are communities in the North with 90% unemployment. We had three choices: not develop, as the members opposite like to do; secondly, develop retroactively, as happened, and pay $500 million in reparations and damages; or negotiate. Manitoba Hydro is negotiating with First Nations. They are negotiating the development and, contrary to what the member said, 187 people are in the process of being trained for development of the dams up in that area. Mrs.

Mitchelson: It is unfortunate that the 90 percent of people unemployed at Split Lake, Mr. Speaker, never saw a penny of the $14.5 million that has been spent to date. It is unfortunate that we have to depend on the Auditor General to get the truth and

1174 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 the facts because we do not get it from this NDP government. Mr. Speaker, can the minister responsible for Hydro make sure that the money that has been spent to date has been spent in an appropriate fashion, and can he assure the band residents and the ratepayers of Manitoba that are asking for the answers, get the answers? Will he provide all of the information, detailed information, on where that money has gone? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, this is a negotiation between Hydro and TCN. Hydro meets with TCN to look at all the concerns.

They have checks and balances in place via a process of preauthorization and subsequent review. TCN provides detailed accounting costs on a monthly basis which are assessed by Hydro. In addition, Hydro has an internal audit team and board-op committee which includes Carol Bellringer, former provincial auditor, Dave Friesen, CEO of Friesen Corporation, and Bill Fraser, CEO of MTS. The old way of doing business, with a half-a- billion-dollar price tag retroactively, is not the way we are doing things, Mr. Speaker. This matter is being dealt with between Hydro and between the First Nations.

The First Nations community gets access to the monthly statements that are provided by the First Nations community, I have been advised. * (14:40) Mrs. Mitchelson: Again, Mr. Speaker, we have not heard the minister responsible commit to having the Auditor go in and review those statements. The residents of Split Lake and the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro deserve some answers. Will the Minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs (Mr.

Lathlin), who is the advocate for all Aboriginal people, including the 90 percent that are unemployed at Split Lake, stand up today and indicate unequivo- cally that no vote will go ahead on construction of the dams until the answers are provided and detailed openness, accountability and transparency are provided to the residents of Split Lake and to the ratepayers of Manitoba Hydro? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the residents of the community have, preliminarily, already had a vote on the agreement and are planning to have a ratification vote by the end of the year. Also, 187 individuals are pre-training.

I do not know if members opposite are aware, because they did not build any dams. You have to pre-train six, seven years ahead, Mr. Speaker. You have to pre- train, you have to look at environmental plans. With the community, Hydro, I understand, has redesigned– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: The dams have been redesigned, Mr. Speaker, to prevent and to mitigate flooding damage, something that is fundamental to people of the North.

All of these matters are be ing worked on, including environmental approvals that are legally binding on Hydro and on the Province to do before you con- struct a dam. I have asked the Hydro chairman who has already indicated publicly to review with the First Nations community the expenses in question. Manitoba Developmental Centre Expansion Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Does She Know She's There? This is the title of a book written by Nicola Schaefer about Catherine Schaefer, a woman I recently visited.

But for the grace of God and some hardworking people, she would be now institutionalized at the Manitoba Developmental Centre. I ask the Minister of Family Services to make public today the study which provides the reason for her decision to spend $40 million to expand the Manitoba Developmental Centre, and to tell us today why she has decided to build a bigger institution, when most people with disabilities, even severe disabilities like Catherine's, are better off at home in the community rather than in an institution. Hon.

Christine Melnick (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Again, I am grateful to the member from River Heights to correct the record. In fact, Mr. Speaker, this is a modernization of the Manitoba Developmental Centre, which would see less people in the Manitoba Developmental Centre. Now what is this modernization based on, Mr. Speaker? It is based on the health and safety needs of both the residents and of the workers in the centre. It is based on, for example, making sure that in the case

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1175 of a fire people would be able to evacuate very quickly. It is based on making sure that the modernization will meet the universal accessible principles so that even non-ambulatory individuals will be able to move smoothly through their home. Right now, to go to the recreational centre, people who are resident within MDC have to be hauled in a cattle cart, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Gerrard: Yet, Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister this: Has she ever read the book Does She Know She's There? In her mother's wo rds, Catherine was initially written off as a sort of medical dud.

Now, writes her mother, she is an understanding and forgiving friend with a lovely sense of humour. Does the minister know what she is doing putting people like Catherine in an institution rather than in the community? Why did the minister's department refuse our access to the study on the lives of people with disabilities on which she based her decision to spend $40 million? Why is she hiding behind a veil of secrecy? Is there even a study, and why will she not produce it so we have an understanding of why she is spending $40 million? Ms. Melnick: Mr.

Speaker, when we talk about a commitment of a government to community living, I am very proud to inform the House that since 1999, our commitment has increased by over 130 percent. Our budget this year included a $17-million increase to community living which the member from River Heights voted against. When we talk about the dignity for people who have challenges, I will stand on our record any day against his record. Manitoba Hydro Standing Committee Review Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): The Doer government wanted a dam, so the Keeyask dam is now on the books and being proposed. Mr.

Speaker, $14 million is doled out, half of it going towards consultants. When you break down the numbers, you are talking somewhere in the neighbourhood of $8,000 per individual, whether they are 3-months old or 50-years old. Again the government can show it has no concept of responsible spending. The Minister responsible for Hydro says, "187 people were trained." How much of that $7 million that went to consultants went towards training, Mr. Speaker?

If this government has nothing to hide, why would this government not agree to have Manitoba Hydro come before a standing committee of this Legislature so that they can be properly questioned if they are not prepared, at the very least, to allow it to go to the provincial auditor? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister charged with the administration of Th e Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I am very proud to be part of a government that is recognizing that we have developed the North and Hydro for all of Canada and training First Nations people.

In fact, I was very pleased that our government signed an agreement with the federal government and Hydro to put funding forward for pre-training for Conawapa, for Keeyask and for Wuskwatim to pre-train and to develop First Nations people to work on those projects. I am very proud the federal government is working with us on this very important issue to not only develop our hydro- electric resources for the rest of Canada who need it in this fossil fuel diminishing age, but to provide employment and economic opportunities in the long term for First Nations who for too long have been left behind. Mr.

Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. During Oral Questions on March 22, 2005, the honourable Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) raised a point of order regarding the use of an exhibit by the hon ourable Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard). Th e honourable Government House Leader contended that the member was using an exhibit in conjunction with addressing a question during Oral Questions. The honourable Member for River Heights also spoke to the point of order and noted that he was drinking cranberry juice.

Given that the–[interjection] * (14:50) Order. I must remind all honourable members that when a Speaker is giving a ruling, it is a very, very serious matter. I want t o m a k e s u r e t h a t a l l members can hear what is being directed, so I ask the co-operation of all honourable members. The honourable Member for River Heights also spoke to the point of order and noted that he was

1176 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 drinking cranberry juice. Given that the decorum in the House at that time prevented me from clearly hearing all of the comments of the honourable Government House Leader and the honourable Member for River Heights, I took the matter under advisement in order to peruse Hansard. After having a chance to review the comments from Hansard, it is evident to me that the honourable Member for River Heights, though he did have a glass of cranberry juice, was not referencing the glass of juice while he was phrasing his question.

So there is no point of order about the glass of cranberry juice being used as an exhibit. However, I would like to remind members that although we do allow the consumption of beverages in the Chamber as refreshments for members, it would not be a good practice if members were to be displaying their beverages in a strategic manner in the House. Otherwise, the House might have to look into the issue of having restrictions or guidelines on the display and consumption of beverages, and I do not think we want to go down that road. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Highway Capital Budget Mr. Tom Nevakshonoff (Interlake): Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to report on our government's dedication to maintaining and improving highway infrastructure in Manitoba. Our government has increased the provincial capital budget for road construction by $16 million over last year. In March, it was announced that in this year's budget, 227.5 million has been allocated for investments in Manitoba's highways in 2005-06. This funding and the improve- ments it will make possible will go a long way to help ensure our province's economy will continue to grow and prosper. Mr.

Speaker, I am particularly pleased to see that a portion of this funding will be invested in highway infrastructure in the Interlake. Our government has committed $10 million to complete upgrades of Provincial Trunk Highway 68 from Poplarfield to Eriksdale. These east-west improvements are needed as previous governments neglected to give them consideration. Upgrades will be made to a 38- kilometre stretch to the standards of the road and Transportation Association of Canada. When the construction is completed, all seasonal restrictions will be removed.

This is an important development which will be welcome news to our farmers, our truckers and all the people who depend on good roads for their livelihood. Mr. Speaker, the east-west upgrades are practical and make economic sense. For example, as plans progress for a new Rancher's Choice packing plant in Dauphin, improved road conditions are necessary. To conclude, I would like to thank the Minister of Transportation and Government Services (Mr. Lemieux), the MLA for La Verendrye, for his dedi- cation to maintaining and improving the highway infrastructure in Manitoba.

I would also like to congratulate our government for its commitment to meeting the needs of rural Manitoba. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Year of the Veteran Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to recognize that 2005 has been declared the Year of the Veteran. It marks the end of World War II in Europe some 60 years ago. As time passes, we move farther away from the real sacri- fices, pain and loss felt by those who came before us. Families watched their loved ones leave to fight in both World Wars.

In my father's family, many of the 14 siblings served, and, thankfully, most of my relatives came home, but too many families were not as blessed. In 2004, the NDP government finally agreed to support the principle of a private member's bill I put forward to allow the veterans' licence plates. This is a meaningful symbol to recognize the contributions of veterans that I am glad to see in place. I would urge the members and public alike to remember the contributions of veterans every time they see one of these licence plates. We cannot forget the sacrifices of our veterans, Mr. Speaker.

As we enjoy our freedom and safety, we must remember veterans made life what it is today. I would genuinely thank and commend all individuals who have honourably served in the Canadian Armed Forces for protecting not only the rights and freedoms of Canadians, but for others around the world. As the Legionnaires say, "Lest We Forget."

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1177 Danish Canadian Club Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Mr. Speaker, on April 2, my wife and I had the honour of attending a dinner at the Scandinavian Centre in Minto constituency to celebrate the bicentenary of the birth in Denmark of prominent poet and storyteller Hans Christian Andersen. The dinner was attended by well over 100 people and was a huge success. Earlier in the day, my daughters enjoyed a children's program featuring traditional Danish crafts and a play. Mr.

Speaker, Danish people have a long and honourable history in Manitoba, dating back to the first official census of 1837. Since that time, people of Danish ancestry have contributed significantly to the settlement, growth and rich cultural diversity of our province. I would like to commend the Danish Canadian Club for organizing such a fantastic celebration. We were treated to fine Danish cuisine, as well as entertainment provided by the Scandinavian Canadian Choir, Scandia Young Folk Dancers, Scandia Fun Folk Dancers, Scandia Players and soloist David Menzies. Mr.

Speaker, the celebration of the Danish Canadian Club was important for several reasons. It provided an opportunity to inform young Danish Canadians about many wonderful aspects of their heritage. It allowed the Danish community to maintain a link with their homeland, and it also brought the uniqueness of Danish culture before the public eye to be shared with the rest of Manitoba. In honour of Hans Christian Andersen and the heritage of Danish Manitobans, April 2, 2005, was proclaimed Hans Christian Andersen Day in Manitoba.

Andersen's work was characterized by a unique ability to speak to what makes us all human, our hearts. His timeless stories and fairy tales have enthralled both children and adults and have been translated into more than 150 languages. Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Danish community and the members of the Danish Canadian Club for giving me the opportunity to share in their celebration. In addition, I encourage all members of this House to visit the Scandinavian Pavilion this summer during Folklorama in order to see the "Once Upon A Time" exhibit to celebrate the legacy of Hans Christian Andersen.

Thank you. Charleswood Junior High School Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to congratulate the efforts of the students at Charleswood Junior High for their fundraising efforts. When students in Colleen Nelson's Grade 8 class heard about the need of the people who lost so much in the Tsunami disaster in Asia, and, in particular, the effect it had on the children there, they wanted to do something to help. They wanted to actually do something themselves and not just ask their parents for donations.

The idea they came up with was to make hemp bracelets using blue beads to represent the ocean and green ones to represent the land. They successfully raised over $180 by selling these to staff and students. Over the last few years, Charleswood Junior High has developed a tradition of participating in a wide variety of community service projects. During their annual Coats For Kids drive, Charleswood Junior High collected a total of 253 winter jackets, as well as a large number of mitts, scarves, hats, boots, et cetera, which have no doubt been appreciated this past cold winter.

Students also put together and delivered a number of Christmas hampers through the Christmas Cheer Board. Every class in the school also made up at least one well-stuffed shoe box as part of the Operation Christmas Child program. Boxes were delivered to Safeway at Charleswood Centre for distribution to needy children around the world. Under the direction of the student council, three cookie-baking sessions have been held this year. In the fall, cookies were taken to a local seniors' home. At Christmas and Valentines Day, cookies and muffins were taken to We stgrove School for their Healthy Breakfast Club.

Money raised by the students from the sale of candy grams and collected during a penny drive was also donated to this program. On Thursday, March 17, Charleswood once again hosted a charity event for Cancer Care Manitoba. Continuing a tradition that was started last year, they hosted a basketball game. This year's participants were the Senior 1 boys versus the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Admission to this event was $5 and included the Manitoba Cancer Care bracelet inscribed with their motto, "Never Alone." This year, all monies raised will be donated to Cancer Care Manitoba in the name of Mr. Lyle

1178 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 Bauer, president and CEO of the Winnipeg Football Club, who is currently fighting throat cancer. I think that it is very important to recognize the efforts that young people make in our communities. Students at Charleswood Junior High have exhibited the caring spirit of their school and in doing so have strengthened our community. We are proud of our youth and applaud their efforts. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. * (15:00) Sisler High School Mr. Doug Marti ndale (Burrows): Mr.

Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to congratulate Sisler High School for winning the 2005 Canadians for a Genocide Museum Award. A coalition of ethno- cultural and human rights organizations across Canada present this annual award to groups and individuals who have made a conscious effort to highlight the effects of genocide and who have worked to reduce such atrocities in the future. It is easy to see why Sisler High School won this award. Students at Sisler have been involved in the global campaign to ban land mines, the global movement to ban child soldiers and the movement to help war-affected children.

Students have also been involved in helping children who live in poverty. This May, the school will be continuing its Refugees & Exiles initiative which exposes students to living the life of a refugee. Sisler High School's commitment to developing its students into conscious, global citizens is evident by the many awards it has received over the years. These include being chosen Canada's top compre- hensive high school by Maclean's magazine in August 2004 and six Prime Minister's awards for teaching excellence.

Teacher, Chris Banfield also received a Lieutenant-Gov ernor's Teacher of the Year Award in 2004 for his work on the Refugees & Exiles program. Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate teacher, Chris Banfield, who travelled to the Ontario Legislature on behalf of Sisler High School on March 29, 2005 to receive this award. I would also like to congratulate principal George Heshka, and the teachers, support staff and students of Sisler High School for undertaking important humanitarian projects that touch so many throughout our world.

Their efforts and work should inspire us all to work against war, genocide or the oppression of any group of people. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Would you call Supply, Mr. Speaker? Mr. Speaker: Resolve into Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (15:10) Mr. Chairperson (H arry Schellenberg): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order? This

section of the Committee of Supply will now be considering the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Honourable Minister, the floor is yours. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (M inister of Justice and Attorney General): I do not have a prepared statement except to I think briefly just go over the significant matters raised in the budget, the new matters. I understand that we have been working to agree to reduce the introductory remarks, and I will recognize and respect that.

In the 2005 budget, we see the recognition of the need to enhance law enforcement in Manitoba with additional police officers . We announced in the Throne Speech, as members know, 40 additional officers. Then, with the development of the budget process, further officers we re added in a number of areas, and as a result of ongoing discussions, particularly with the RCMP, and to a certain extent with the municipal force in Winnipeg, as well as Brandon and Dakota Ojibway Police Services.

The number of police officer positions in the budget now will come from $9.5 million in new funding, representing a 13 % increase, according to our math here, in order to establish 54 new officer positions. The deployment of those officers was the subject of discussions with the police agencies

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1179 involved since the initial announcement in the Throne Speech late last year. We can certainly have discussions about the deployment. I might conclude this part by just saying that the deployment was as requested by the law enforcement agencies. The Province respects the knowledge of the police forces and their analysis of where the greatest needs are. * (15:20) The budget, as well, provides for additional Lighthouse locations. Currently, we have 34 Light- houses across Manitoba. The budget adds a further 4 Lighthouses.

Those Lighthouses will come on- stream as the applications come in and are approved. The Lighthouses initiative has proven to be very successful in attracting youth and apparently youth at risk. I understand that there were 8000 youth visits in the first year that the program was analyzed. I think it does provide an opportunity for youth to be engaged in positive activity in a safe place, whether it is in schools or community centres or friendship centres or other places.

The organized crime stra tegy is enhanced in several ways, but I think most notably in the additional resources for policing and the particular deployment of those resources. Further, though, there are several other changes that the budget signals. First of all, there is a ne w three-member Corrections Organized Crime Intelligence Unit to analyze infor- mation on organized crime and gangs that are gathered by Manitoba Corrections.

Not only risk management decisions will flow from that, but there will be a better ability to share with external agencies information or intelligence that is gathered in our correctional facilities. The Gang Prosecution Unit is enhanced and, as well, the staff that is assigned to administer and enforce The Safer Communities and Neighbourhoods Act was increased. A fourth investigator was added there, which actually allows the creation of two teams.

So the addition of another staff person there, I think, has an enhancement to that service that goes beyond the addition of one person, if you will, because of the simultaneous investigations that can now take place. So far the unit has shut down 92 drug, sniff and prostitution houses and I think has, by all measures, also been very successful in assisting police make arrests at these locations. It is my understanding 59 arrests on 90 charges have already unfolded as a result of the work of these investigators.

As members may know, the Province of Saskatchewan has recently brought in legislation modelled on the Manitoba act . I know that there are at least two other jurisdictions that are looking at this kind of legislation. Additionally, the budget adds $400,000 on top of the $1 million that was earmarked for the Integrated Organized Crime Task Force of Manitoba. That is an organization dedicated to intelligence-led enforce- ment to disrupt organized crime at the leadership level.

The task force is comprised of the RCMP and Winnipeg Police Service, but, as well, has parti- cipation from the Brandon Police Service and other municipal and other services as needed. Now, there are new resources for prosecutions. There are new resources to deal with the challenges of localized street crime, in this case in downtown Winnipeg, by the establishment of what I understand will be Canada's first community prosecution initia- tive with an assigned prosecutor to a neighbourhood, a geographic area, in downtown Winnipeg. This is an initiative that I have been studying.

I went to a conference in Atlanta in the spring. I had been hearing about it from different locations. Hennepin County is one location where they have developed a community prosecution model. I met with the Hennepin County people on this. It is our view that by making our community prosecution initiative one that is sensitive to local needs and the priorities of agencies and organizations in downtown Winnipeg, we can make a difference in being more proactive and introducing more problem solving to downtown rather than pursuing just the traditional prosecution approach.

The budget, as well, and I am concluding my remarks now, goes on to add new resources to combat domestic violence, particularly the funding of the implementation of The Domestic Violence and Stalking Act that passed in June. That was a money bill and required budget allocation to roll out. It will be enforced on October 31. The government is actively working on a comprehensive strategy to deal with illicit drug

1180 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 manufacturing and the key part of that is a compre- hensive strategy to deal with the increasing concern about meth in Canada. We want to ensure that we take efforts here in Manitoba to guard against the epidemic proportions of this drug that we have seen south of the border. I have been involved in several research endeavours. In fact, just in the last few months, two summits on meth; one, the Western Canadian Summit On Meth, and the second, a summit of Western Attorneys General of the United States on meth.

As well, of course, I have been involved with the Attorneys General of South and North Dakota and Minnesota, as well as drug court people and experts on the impacts of meth on the individual and on the communities. So, perhaps the members might want to pursue that. We are certainly here prioritizing that initiative. There is an expansion of Aboriginal justice initiatives in this budget as well, related to the policing investments and new resources to counter the threat of sexual predators and dangerous offen- ders.

The challenge of auto theft, of course, remains one that is, I think, best described as a stubborn epidemic that must have new approaches brought to bear to reduce its incidents, particularly in the city of Winnipeg. Of course, the members know the auto theft suppression initiative that has been designed since late summer will be announced later this month. The members may have questions or com- ments on that challenge. Those are some of the highlights from the budget.

I think they represent most of the priorities that Manitobans have and deal with concerns and some innovations that, I think, had to be brought to the challenge of making the province safer. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable Member for Steinbach, have any opening comments? The Member for Steinbach, you have the floor. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr. Chair, I do appreciate this opportunity to be here to participate in the Justice Estimates this afternoon.

It is my first opportunity as the critic for the Justice Department to do so. The minister made a number of comments in his opening statement about recognizing that they were kept brief, which we appreciate. We know we are dealing with less hours than we have traditionally in a number of years past. It is good that we can get right down to business on a number of the questions that we have.

I know that it would not be proper to leave some of the comments that were made, sort of, unresponded to that the minister put on the record. * (15:30) We know that the policing initiative, as he put it, was brought forward in terms of new police officers for the city of Winnipeg, the city of Brandon and rural Manitoba, and was met with some conflicting reports in terms of the ability to actually put those boots on the street, if it were, Mr. Chairperson. We will get into that in terms of their deployment as well, which the minister commented in his opening statement.

I do think it is key from the policing perspective, however, and had the opportunity, over the short time that I have been Justice critic, recognizing it has not been a long time, to talk to a number of uniformed officers in the detachments across the province right from The Pas to southern Manitoba. The picture that the minister paints is not one that the officers are painting out in the communities and in Manitoba. I think they would say that they are undermanned in many ways and that they are juggling many priorities that they just simply cannot address.

I have heard the concerns quite often that they feel that the inability to address these issues some- times leads to situations where people are not fully protected or are not getting the services they think that their police force should be providing them. That is, obviously, why it is a complex issue. It is certainly one that falls squarely on the shoulders of the Minister of Justice (M r. Mackintosh) to address and not simply making announcements on comple- ments that are not going to be filled and making announcements that are not really going to improve policing.

It might get quick headlines and some initial good media in the short term, but the long- term effects certainly do play themselves out and people recognize it. They understand that something is not correct when they hear on one day that there are new resources and then sometime later nothing is really being improved on the policing side. Probably

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1181 nowhere is that more evident today in Manitoba than on the organized crime side of the ledger. We hear, almost on a daily basis now, and the fear is that as we get closer to summer these occurrences are going to increase, that organized gang activities, not only are they increasing in scope and ramping up in terms of the nature of the crimes that are happening, but the competition between the organized gang units is intensifying.

It is simply not an isolated case where they are acting out against each other, which is typically what we report on, but we know there are many side effects and we know that these organized gangs are participating in endeavours that harm all of us.

I understand, and I suspect that the Minister of Justice has been under significant pressure on the issue of organized crime and hears what all of us are hearing, he does not live in isolation as the Minister of Justice, he deals with his own constituents and he meets with Manitobans and I am sure that, in his travels and in those discussions that he has, he hears those concerns, that people simply do not believe that we cannot address th is issue and are concerned that not only is it not improving but it seems to be worsening as the days go by and the number of gangs, organized gangs that have come into the province, continues to grow.

Those are certainly the concerns that I hear from Manitobans when I am speaking to them and I cannot imagine that the Minister of Justice does not hear those same concerns when he is doing his functions in his constituency or on behalf of the ministry. The minister mentioned that there was a stubborn epidemic of auto theft and the problems that we have in Manitoba, certainly I know, when talking with other jurisdictions, they are astounded by the number of auto thefts that we have in the province on a per capita basis. I have had the opportunity just recently to meet with justice officials in Minnesota.

When I told them how many auto thefts we had in the province they simply could not believe it. I had to give them the number again and they said, "How big is this city?" They just simply could not understand it. They said, "You know, it is strange because we have been able to do things to bring down the number of auto thefts." I said, "Well, maybe your experience with auto theft is different.

Pe rhaps it is more on the organized crime side and less on the youth, the joy riders side," and they said, "No, actually it was not." The more we discussed it seemed that we had very similar challenges in terms of auto theft and they were astounded, might be too strong a word, but they were certainly perplexed and puzzled why it was that a city the size of Winnipeg, in particular, could not wrestle this problem down. Certainly, I know in opposition the member or the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), the Member for St. Johns at that time, in opposition, brought forward ideas.

He certainly thought that the problem could be addressed. I do not remember. I think that the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was in the Legislature at that time. I am not sure if the words stubborn– [interjection] Maybe he was on a sabbatical, as the Minister of Justice says, but the Member for Inkster could remind me, perhaps. The words "stubborn epidemic" were used in discussion then about auto theft– An Honourable Member: Then he was quite animated. Mr. Goertzen: Okay, the minister was then quite animated about the fact that things could be done.

Yet now, as Minister of Justice, after six years it does not seem like this problem has been able to be wrestled to the ground. It is not there has been a lack of time. The Minister of Justice might be the longest-serving Minister of Justice in Manitoba. He can correct me if he is not, but certainly he is among the longest- serving ministers of Justi ce in Canada. The issue of not having time to deal with this problem would not be one I think that the minister could properly bring forward. I know he does plead for more time on other issues, like The Stalking and Prevention Act which he brings forward.

I suspect that he raised those in his statements today, because of some of the unfor- tunate events that we have heard about over the last 24 hours. Maybe that is somewhat symbolic, that when something happens in the area of Justice, a tragic event, that the minister is quick to jump and to discuss an issue, but the reality is that the amend- ments that he has brought forward and his govern- ment brought forward have now been sitting and laid waste for two years. If the issue was resources, I find

1182 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 it difficult, with the growing expenditures in the province over the last two years in particular, that the minister simply could not find those resources to ensure that the law was put in place and to protect vulnerable people in our society who are often women in troubled relationships. I know also that the Minister of Justice will be wanting to talk somewhat, I suppose, as we go along, about issues of youth criminal justice and some of the issues of conditional sentencing.

We do, as well, recognizing that there is a dual jurisdiction in terms of where that legislation falls. We certainly think that there is a provincial role to play within that, and I expect that over the course of the next number of hours that we have here to discuss Justice Estimates that we will be able to discuss those as well, Mr. Chairperson. Issues of legal aid, I do not recall if the minister raised legal aid in his opening comments. He did. An Honourable Member: No, no. Mr. Goertzen: No, I am sorry, he did not, but I know he will want to discuss those issues as we go forward.

I look forward to engaging in that discus- sion as well. I think it is critical, as we look at these issues overall, that certainly we focus on areas of deterrence and denunciation for a crime. Sometimes, Justice, I recognize it is a difficult portfolio at times. You are not always building highways and opening commu- nity centres and the like. It is often dealing with issues that do not have that same kind of visibility until there is a crime or until there is some kind of event that triggers fear with people.

I recognize that there are those difficulties, but I also do recognize that it is the minister who has had six years to be active on the portfolio, and it is a government that has been there for six years. The minister, I think, was al so the opposition Justice critic for his party for many years during the 1990s, perhaps dating back to 1993 or 1994, somewhere in that range.

During that time, I know that the member, as the opposition critic, brought forward numerous proposals and different points of plans, in terms of how to eradicate auto theft and how to get rid of gangs, a little different kind of gang problem obviously in the 1990s, more youth-oriented and less organized. But we have not seen the kinds of results that one would expect for somebody who, I think, held the Justice file for probably close to 12 to 15 years at this point, Mr. Chairperson. An Honourable Member: Eleven. * (15:40) Mr. Goertzen: Eleven years.

Maybe the minister wants to plead that 11 years is not enough and 15 years might fulfil that role. But, seriously, it is clear that after 11 years of working on the file, the results should be in place. We know that there have been a number of announcements in Justice over the course of the last little while, a number of news releases and announcements and press conferences and media scrums and those sorts of things. Of course, where there ar e real initiatives that are being brought forward by the Minister of Justice (Mr.

Mackintosh), I know he is speaking of the drug court now, and I do think it is good that we, as a party, have been able to now lead some of the initiatives on there. Certainly, I had the opportunity to speak to some media where we thank the minister for following our suggestion. We are certainly not partisan when it comes to these kinds of issues. We like to work in a bipartisan spirit and where the minister follows our lead on issues, as he did on the drug treatment court, we say that is good.

In fact, early in the morning, when I was doing the interview with one of the local radio stations, they asked if I would be happy if the minister would follow our lead, and I said absolutely, because this is not about a Conservative idea or a New Democratic idea, but, in fact, it is just a good idea. Good ideas are not partisan, so I am glad the minister followed our lead on that. I know he quickly snapped to attention as well when we raised issues of prostitution. He made another announcement, and we are glad we could lead the way on that as well.

It is almost like a partnership, although I think at some point the public will say we need to see leadership from the government. If it is going to be the opposition that is going to be driving the Justice agenda in Manitoba, then we might as well have a Conservative govern- ment. Certainly, I have a number of other ideas for the Minister of Justice over the next few weeks and the

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1183 next few months, and I am sure he will be quick to react on those too. No doubt he is looking at the auto theft strategy that we put forward a month ago and sent it quickly into the department and said, "How could we implement all these good ideas that the Conservatives brought forward and yet still try to make it our own," I guess. That is the minister's way, but that certainly is not the way that we respond to things as Conservatives, Mr. Chairperson.

But we are just glad that some small things are getting done now on the Justice file now that we are putting forward proposals that the minister is accepting and we will certainly try to continue to lead the way in the days ahead. If he wants to try to take credit for that, that is certainly fine, but I know that Manitobans will see through some of that in the days ahead.

We just simply want to be working and ensuring that the minister is putting forward good initiatives, not just news releases that are there to gain headlines and to gain quick photo ops, but those things that really make a difference to law and order in our province. With those comments, Mr. Chairperson, I think we are ready to proceed with some of these sub- stantial questions. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for the remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minis- ter's salary is traditionally the last item considered for the department in the Committee of Supply.

Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 4.1(

a) and proceed with consideration of the remaining items referenced in Resolution 4.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table. We ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Will the staff please come forward? Will the minister now introduce his staff? Mr. Mackintosh: With us at the table is the Deputy Minister of Justice, Deputy Attorney General Bruce MacFarlane. Pat Sinnott is the Executive Director of Finance and Administration. Rob Finlayson is the Assistant Deputy Attorney General, Head of Prosecutions.

Next to Robin is David Greening, the Acting Director of Policy, Development and Analysis. Next to David is Brad Janzen, the Acting Executive Director of Court Services. Next to Brad is Mike Horn, the ADM of Criminal Justice Division. Next to Mike is Don Slough. Don is the Director of Special Prosecutions, then Bob Dojack is the Director of Adult Probation, Corrections Division. Mr. Chairperson: Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department in a chronological manner or have a global discussion? Mr. Goertzen: Mr.

Chairperson, certainly I think it is the tradition of the committee to look at the Estimates in a global manner. We will not have the number of hours of Estimates that we have had in the past, so it should not impede on staff's time unnecessarily. I suspect it would probably be most beneficial if we just simply proceed on a global basis. Mr. Chairperson: Order. Any comments? Is it agreed that questions for this department will follow in a global manner with all line items to be passed once the questioning has been completed? [Agreed] The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Goertzen: Mr.

Chairperson, I do want to wel- come staff from the Department of Justice here as well. We know that you do a difficult job every day, and it is a job that probably does not get recognized enough by citizens of Manitoba. We know that you are quick to react to things that come to the media's attention in terms of crimes and different issues within the justice system, but we also know that there are many good things that happen. I am sure there is prevention within the system, the system is operating as it should, and there is confidence within the justice system.

The staff should be commended for the work that you do, and I hope that as you go back to your subordinates you are responsible for that you also pass along our good wishes for the work that you are doing. I hope you will be encouraged in the work that you continue in the days ahead. We do want to open with some questions in relation to organized crime in the province, but I am going to first ask the minister if he could, for the record, indicate who his executive assistant is in his office and his special assistant and how long they have been in their current positions. Mr.

Mackintosh: The special assistant is Janis Bermel. She is at the back of the room. She has been in place since we formed government in October '99.

1184 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 The executive assistant is Patrick Sarginson. He has been working there for several months. I cannot recall the date. If the member would like that, I can obtain that. He was formerly an intern, went away for some education and returned and took that job. So he is the liaison with the community. As well, then, on the MPI side, Pauline Riley is the executive assistant there. She has been there, I think, about a year. Before that she was executive assistant as the community liaison. Mr.

Goertzen: I thank the minister for that response, always happy to see interns do well in the province and go on to other positions. Can the minister indicate, prior to Mr. Sarginson becoming the executive assistant in his office, who filled that position and if they went into another position in government? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, there were two. Very briefly, a person by the name of Neri Dimacali went on to other employment outside of government. Before that, it was Pauline Riley.

She, now, is the executive assistant on the MPI side and deals with concerns from claimants usually or the general public and stick-handles those with MPI to ensure that the proper answers are provided to any questions r concerns. o Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Chairperson, some opening questions on the issue of organized crime. Can the minister indicate, or if his staff can provide him with the answer, in terms of the number of recognized gangs that we have in the province, the most recent statistics he might have? Mr.

Mackintosh: The Canadian intelligence serv- ices of Manitoba is the organization that would provide that information. The last report for 2004, I think, should not be relied on at this point. I think we could make inquiries of CISM and get answers for the member. If he is looking at the number, is he looking at any particular category, street gangs or OMGs or whatever? We can provide that kind of analysis if CISM has that available. Whether it is currently available, we will have to make some checks. * (15:50) Mr.

Goertzen: Are those reports that are produced annually and at a particular date in time every fiscal year or every calendar year? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, we can try and obtain anything that is updated. I think that is the question. I mean, things change so quickly. I understand they can change week over week, so what we will try and do is obtain something that is current. Mr. Goertzen: I wonder if the minister could indicate if he has any statistics on the number of active gang members in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Mackintosh: I know the Winnipeg Police Service has attempted to document that kind of number.

The most recent information I had was that there were in the range of 3000 active and inactive gang members in Winnipeg. I do not think that number has changed over the last couple of years. Mr. Goertzen: I understand that the police of the Winnipeg Police Association consider an active gang member somebody who has come in contact with the police and can be identified as a gang member once in the last two years. Is that correct in terms of the terminology on active gang members? Mr. Mackintosh: We can obtain the answer to the question.

As I recall, there was a six-point criteria that has been used, but we will double check to ensure that the criteria has remained the same over the last number of years. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister for that under- taking. He mentioned that there were 3000 active and inactive gang members in the province. Could he indicate, of the most recent numbers that he has, how many of them were active and how many of them were inactive status? Mr. Mackintosh: The Winnipeg Police Service has not provided a breakdown over the last number of years with that number. Mr.

Goertzen: I wonder if the minister could indicate if that is not information that he would find in his work as minister helpful and useful. I guess I am somewhat surprised. I though that perhaps he would have those numbers, if not necessarily at his disposal, but that I would hear that he is given updates on active gang members and inactive gang members in the province on a more regular basis. Maybe he could indicate when was the last time he had a briefing on the number of active and inactive gang members in the province of Manitoba.

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1185 Mr. Mackintosh: Well, one caution that has to be expressed here is that the situations can change and change rapidly, but we do rely, of course, on police for that kind of information because they are the ones that are tasked in Manitoba with the collection of that kind of data. Mr. Goertzen: I certainly understand that the compilation of the information is something that falls into the purview of the Winnipeg police as I think it would in other jurisdictions.

Am I led to believe that the Minister of Justice has not been given any updated numbers in terms of the number of gang members, active or inactive in the last two years? Mr. Mackintosh: No, I have just received recently that estimate that I gave earlier. Mr. Goertzen: Can the Minister of Justice indicate how often he receives updated information on the number of active and inactive gang members in the province? Mr.

Mackintosh: The Winnipeg Police Service has always been responsive to requests for information, and I have no complaint with the provision of information from them, but the number that I gave earlier is the number that I had received. I think it is a current number. Mr. Goertzen: Current as of what date, Mr. Minister? Mr. Mackintosh: To date. Mr. Goertzen: So, just for clarification, the minister was given from Winnipeg Police Service the number of 3000 today in terms of current and inactive gang members in the province? Mr. Mackintosh: I recall that it was approximately.

There was not an exact number, and, as I said earlier, I think that that number has been holding for some period of time, I think a couple of years. As well, from time to time briefings are held with the police in terms of the overall situation of the activity of organized crime in Manitoba, and I have benefited from those kinds of briefings. There was more recently one provided by the Winnipeg Police Association, as well, for members of the Winnipeg gang unit, but as well, there have been presentations from RCMP and jointly with Winnipeg Police and RCMP. Mr.

Goertzen: Are those meetings or briefings initiated at the request of the minister or the department or are they initiated at the request of the police services? Mr. Mackintosh: I am advised that the last one was at our request. Mr. Goertzen: I am led to believe then that these are not regularly scheduled meetings. These are meet- ings that come up from time to time or as the minister of the department or the police services determine are necessary, or is it driven by events that might happen in the media or new information that the Winnipeg Police Service brings forward.

I guess I just do not want to leave an impression on the record that somehow there is kind of an ad hoc system in terms of how information is brought forward to the minister on what I think is a fairly significant issue to all Manitobans in that I would have expected that there would be some type of a regular and scheduled reporting system on infor- mation that is so critical to the well-being and the reputation of Manitobans. Mr.

Mackintosh: Also, I think it should be noted that there are meetings from time to time with the leadership in the law enforcement community, and information can be exchanged at that time as well. If there is any information that they think is important for my office to know about, they certainly know they have an open line to my office. From time to time they provide updates and advise of circum- stances. Mr.

Goertzen: Well, I will have to surmise from some of the minister's comments that there is not a co-ordinated effort in terms of ensuring that there are regular meetings and that information is regularly provided to the Minister of Justice. Certainly, I do not think that that sort of laissez-faire approach was the approach that was taken in the 1990s. In fact, I am quite certain that there were regular briefings that were brought forward at that time in terms of the number of active and inactive gang members, that they were scheduled and co-ordinated, and that action and direction came from those meetings.

Perhaps that goes a long wa y in terms of answering

1186 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 the question in terms of why it is that we have an escalating gang problem in the province. I wonder if the minister can indicate for the committee if the gang numbers that are provided in an ad hoc fashion as they are, if they also break down the number or the estimated number of gang members in individual gangs. Mr. Mackintosh: Two points follow from the mem- ber's comments. The depart ment has an assigned officer or personnel that meet with law enforcement regularly and, indeed, our understanding with the RCMP, it would be approximately weekly.

Of course, there sometimes can be breaks in terms of holidays and absences, but that is the kind of

schedule and kind of relationship that the department has forged with our provincial policing partners. I am also advised that meetings with the police in my office are more frequent than during the 1990s, and I will certainly commit to continuing that kind of relationship. As well, I can advise that com- munications take place not only in person but by telephone from time to time depending on events as they arise. In terms of the member's question, I will seek to obtain that answer from law enforcement. * (16:00) Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate the minister's under- taking on that.

I learn now that there are semiregular or regular meetings that take place here with staff representatives from the department, with Winnipeg police specifically, to discuss the issue of organized gangs in the province. Can the minister indicate, over the last budgetary year or calendar year, how many meetings would take place? Mr. Mackintosh: I am advised that there are meet- ings, whether it is with Winnipeg police or RCMP, basically once a week. There are different layers of relationship. Prosecutions have regularized meetings with Winnipeg Police Service.

In fact, I think there has been a real strengthening of the relationship between Manitoba Justice, Prosecutions in particular, and the Winnipeg Police Service to make sure there is problem solving on matters of mutual concern. As well, I think we have helped to usher in, with the leadership of the staff, a stronger relationship with our provincial policing partners at the RCMP. We are always looking to improve those kinds of relations. As well, we are looking to formalize how we interact with the Winnipeg Police Service and the City of Winnipeg, generally, on a more regularized basis.

We have had discussions with the political leadership at City Hall on that. Mr. Goertzen: Can the minister indicate how often he personally has met with representatives of law enforcement or the individual task forces to speci- fically discuss the issue of organized crime? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, as I say, we have had, in addition to the meeting with the police association– we get briefings sometimes not even directly with law enforcement but through Manitoba Justice on any issues. I was just thi nking in terms of different ADMs and Greg Tunny [phonetic] .

It would be difficult to quantify because it can happen on a myriad of issues. Mr. Goertzen: Perhaps, the Minister of Justice can provide an estimate, over the course of a year, how often he might meet in a meeting with law enforce- ment to discuss the issue of organized crime in a substantive way, whether it is part of another agenda or a stand-alone item, but certainly where there is substantive discussion on the problems of organized crime, the number of gang members that are active and inactive or the number of new gangs that are either established in the province or looking in the province.

I do not think it should be difficult to quantify. I do not think I will hold the minister to account if we find out there was one more meeting or one less meeting in the course of the year. I just think that it is worth knowing how engaged the minister is in this particular file. Mr. Mackintosh: Is the member seeking statistics on telephone discussions as well? Mr.

Goertzen: No, I think I would like to know just how many times the Minister of Justice has sat down and talked face to face in his office and other locations with the Winnipeg police and their detach- ments, wherever, but spent significant time as part of a stand-alone agenda or other agenda in the last year, talking with law enforcement about organized crime and the problem we have with organized crime in the province.

April 11, 2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1187 Mr. Mackintosh: I will try to quantify that for the member and let him know. I do not think that is going to be an easy task, but we can try and provide some kind of record of those kinds of communi- cations. Mr. Goertzen: We will wait for those responses, Mr. Chairperson. I think we could quickly quantify how many news releases have been sent out on issues like organized crime. Certainly, that is the priority, getting those missives out from the depart- ment or from the minister specifically, about things that are being done in organized crime.

I am somewhat concerned that there do not seem to be any regular and specific meetings that the minister holds with law enforcement or others on this particular issue. When the question is asked why it is we have an escalating problem of gangs in the province, I would not go so far as to suggest it is because the minister is not having these kinds of regular discussions and processes that come up with new initiatives but perhaps it is one piece of the puzzle.

We know there have been some experts in the field, or so-called experts in the field, that have written about organized crime who recently have made comments that suggest that–well, it was not my comments, but it is by an author who writes about outlaw motorcycle gangs who says the province has become a soft touch for organized crime and speci- fically discussed the minister as well in this relation. The government as a whole is not doing what it could in giving that direction to eliminate gangs in the province and prevent new ones from establishing.

Certainly, I would expect that while there might not be regular meetings, and perhaps there are ad hoc briefings from time to time or as the occasion arises, or the need arises, as the minister feels, I imagine on the most high profile of issues. Whether it is with the coming in of the Bandidos recently, or the establishment in 2000 of the Hells Angels, I suspect the minister tracks closely those particular gangs because they seem to be the ones that are most often reported upon.

With that in mind, knowing that the minister is up to date on that file, could he indicate how many members of the Bandidos he believes there to be in the province and how many members of the Hells Angels, full-patch members of the Hells Angels, he believes there to be in the province? Mr. Mackintosh: I think it is important for the member to recognize the different function of law enforcement versus the Department of Justice and the minister's office in terms of intelligence gathering. That is the responsibility of the police.

It is a matter that is very sensitive in terms of when matters should be released and what matters should be released and what is for public consumption or not. In terms of the state of knowledge of outlaw motorcycle gangs in Man itoba, I will refer that answer and advise the member on what law enforcement advises should be the strategy around that. I do not want, in any way, to undermine any communications imperatives of law enforcement agencies. Mr.

Goertzen: Perhaps the minister could enlighten me to it, if there is a particular intelligence reason why the number of each, of the members of the gangs are not for public consumption. I suspect the speculation that goes on th ere, that is probably as significant as the actual fact. We know there have been media reports that have indicated there are new and growing gangs in the province, in particular the Bandidos, and that have speculated on their inten- tions and have speculated on the number of Hells Angels in the province.

Maybe the minister could just simply indicate, until he determines what he feels is appropriate in terms of releasing, whether or not his department has that information in terms of the number of Bandidos members and the number of Hells Angels members in the province of Manitoba. * (16:10) Mr. Andrew Swan, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Mackintosh: The police do keep us regularly informed on developments in the area of organized crime.

The answer to the question, I think, out of respect for the need to guard against any information going out that would inappropriately be put in the public domain, I will seek the advice of the department and law enforcement and respond to the member accordingly. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairperson. I will wait to hear back in a relatively short order from the minister about those statistics. I understand he then does have them in his, not immediate possession perhaps, but he does have access to that information.

1188 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 11, 2005 I wonder if the minister could indicate for the committee how many officers, RCMP, city of Winnipeg, are specifically dedicated to fighting organized crime and gangs in the province of Manitoba. Mr. Mackintosh: It should be known to the mem- ber, but it may not be, that is classified information. That has been the regular advice from police agencies and they will not give out that information. I would be negligent, indeed, undermining our own purposes, if I was to provide that information. Mr.

Goertzen: The dedicated gang unit that the Winnipeg police have in the city of Winnipeg, does he know how many officers are dedicated to that particular force? Mr. Mackintosh: Well, the member should know there have been reorganizational efforts at the Winnipeg Police Service, quite significant changes that are ongoing and are continuing to undergo over the next several weeks. The member may wish to pursue that information from Winnipeg Police Service. They can make decisions on what infor- mation should be released to politicians. I think that would be the best way to proceed. Mr.

Goertzen: Can the minister indicate if he corresponds with the Winnipeg Police Service to determine how many police officers at any given time in the province were assigned to the task force in terms of working on organized crime? Mr. Mackintosh: Yes. Mr. Goertzen: Can he indicate whether or not that task force has been a full complement over the course of the last fiscal year or calendar year? Mr. Mackintosh: I would hesitate giving an answer that may not be accurate as of today, but we can make inquiries to determine if the Winnipeg unit is at complement.

Those priorities would be made of Winnipeg Police Service. Mr. Goertzen: I look forward to hearing that res- ponse from the minister. Just for clarification, the key is that these p

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	38-3-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	38th 3rd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	46c777e17a79a79e137a9e9fd57e72e6eb1fd4a4

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).