Manitoba Hansard — 11 March 1960 (Sitting 39A, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-39a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

DAILY INDEX Friday, March 11, 19 60, 2: 30P.M. Introduction of Bills: No. 120, re School Act (Mr. McLean)......................... 14 45 Second Readings: Bill 51, re Margarine (Mr. Seaborn) • . • • • • . • . • . . . • . . . . • • • . . • • . . . • 1448 Mr. Smellie . . • . • • • • . . . • • • . . • • . • • . . . . . . • . . • • . • • • . • • • . • . • . • • . • • • • . • . . • • • • • . 144 9 Mr. Tanchak . • • • • . • . • • • • . • . • . . . • . . . • . • . . . • . • . • . . • • • • . . • • . . . . . . . • • • • . . • • . • • 1452 Mr.

Johnson (Assiniboia) •.•• ; • . . • • . . . . . • • . . • . . . • . . . . • . . • . . . . . . • • • . • . • . . • . . 1454 Mr. Wagner . . . . • . • . . • • • • • . • • • . . . . . • • . . • . . • . • • • . . . • . . . . • • . • . • • • • . • • • . • . • • • 1457 Mr. Desjardins . • • • • . . • • . . • • • . . • . • . . . . • . • • . . . . . • • • • . . . • . . . . • . . • • • • . . . • • • • . 145 9 Mr. Groves . . • . . . . • • . • • • • . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . • . • • • . . . . • . . . . • • . • . . . . • . . • . . • . . • 1460 Mr. Stanes, Mr.

Scarth . • • . • . • • . • . . • • • . . • • . . . • • . • . . • . . . . . . • • . • . • • • . • • • . . • • 1462 Mr. Weir, :M;r. Johnson (Gimli)............................................. 146 3 Mr. Prefontaine • • . . • • • • • • . • . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . 1464 Mr. Orlikow . • . • . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . • . . . . . • . . . • • . . . • . • . . . • . • . . . • . . . • . • . • • . . 1465 Mr. Corbett 14 66 Bill 82, re Dental Association (Mr. C-hristianson) . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . 1467 Mr.

Paulley . • . • • . • • . • . • • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . • . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . • • • • • • . • 1468 Bill 83 , re School Act (Mr. Schreyer): Mr. Lyon, Mr. Schreyer, Mr. Paulley ........ 146 9 Mr. Roblin, Mr. Speaker . . . . . . . . • . . . . . • . . . . • . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . 1470 DAILY INDEX Friday, March 11, 1960, 8:00P.M. Condolences: Re George Mil ne,.

Francis Ferg, Q.C. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . 1471 Committee of Supply: Public Works, Highways, Aids and Public Works . . . • . . . . • • . • . . 1473 Municipal Affairs, Administration . • . . . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . • . . . . . • • • . . • . 14 96 Local Government Districts . . . . . . • . . . . . . • . • . . . • • . . . . • . . . . . . . . . . • • • • • • • . • . • • 1507 Municipal Assessments ..• :. • . . . . . . . . . • . . . . • . • . • . • . . • . . . . . . . • . . • . • . . . . . . . . • 1512

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Friday, March 11th, 1960 MR. SPEAKER: The Committee of Supply. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, before you proceed with our usual business, there are two matters which I should like to bring to the attention of the House at this time. These are subjects which are usually referred to on the Orders of the Day, Sir, but I would like to mention them now, in view of the time of the week to which we have arrived.

I would like to mention first of all that we received news of the death .of George Milne, who was for several years Sergeant-at-Arms of this House and for many years before that was well known to all of us as one of the guard-cu stodians of this building. I think that all of us will agree that Mr. Milne was an exct;ledingly pleasant and affable person who was a friend of all.of us here, and discharged his duties, particularly as Sergeant-at-Arms, in a way in which would excitl; the adi:Piration and approval of all members of the House.

And I would like to take this opportunity, Sir, although I will not move a formal resolution,of expressing what I know to be the view of the whole Ass.embly,one of sympathy and condolence, indeed, to his widow and to members of his family. And I should also like to bring to the notice of the House, Sir, another event that took place, I think yesterday, and that is the death of a former member of this Legislature, Mr. Frank Ferg, Q.C., who for a number of years was the representative of the Constituency of Cypress. Now, Frank Ferg was a very valuable member of this House. He had a pleasant and easy personality.

I'm sure that he was equally well regarded on all sides of the Assembly. He had a keen knowledge and an interest that went back many years, I know, particularly in the field of agriculture and those matters which affected the smaller communities of the province, because he had made his name and his reputation and his career in the rural part of the Prov ince of Manitoba. And he was, I believe, an eloquent and able spokesman for his people. A man who was extremely well-liked and thought of by the members of this House.

And so, Sir, in this case I would like to move and I should like to take the opportunity of associating, if I may, the Leader of the Opposition in this motion as the honourable member who represents Cypress at the present time is not in the Chamber, I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable. the Leader of the Opposition that this House convey to the family of the late Frank Ferg, Q.C ., who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba its sincere sympathy in their bereavement, and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service. And that Mr.

Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. · IVIr • Speaker presented the motion. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the occasions, as the Honourable the First Minister has mentioned, when we find it fitting to pause in the work of the Legislative Assembly in order to pay tribute to public servants who have done their work well and who have passed to their reward. And I would like to do as the First Minister has done, and before speaking of the late member to whom the motion applies, to say a word of appreciation about our former Sergeant-at-Arms, George Milne.

George was a veteran of both world wars. He had served in World War No. I when he was under age. He had served in World War II when he was over age. And knowing George as well as a lot of us did, I know it's a certainty that he served well in both capacities. ·one of his brothers, as well, was a veteran of both world wars and was lost at Dieppe. George was there too. I well remember when he first came to Portage la Prairie. Everybody would know he was a Scotsman, of course, and I never held that "agin" him.

And he became a civil servant there, and became one of the most highly respected citizens of that community. And then he came - in the nature of his duties he was moved into this building and became one of the guards and later on the Sergeant-at-Arms. I am sure that all of us join with the First Minister in expressing our sympathy to the family and our appreciation of the excellent con�ribution that he made in every sphere of life .in which he operated. I happen to know Mrs. Milne and the family quite well, too, and I can appreciate the great loss that they have suffered. Then, Frank Ferg has just passed away.

He, too, was a veteran of World War I, and as the First Minister has mentioned, he had lived m�y in the rural part, in the small town March 11th, 1960 Page 1471

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd) ....• of Glenboro where he practised law for more than 40 years and had served as a member of this Legislative Assembly. Actually Frank had not wanted to enter public life, having the feeling that he was too old at that time to start in, but he was prevailed upon to do so and he served here for a time. He was one of the few members of this House that retired voluntarily. The most of us don't ever get around to retiring in that way, but Frank did. He hadn't been anxious to serve in the first place; but as the First Minister has said, he did a fine job while he was here.

I think the members who sat with him would agree with me that he was one of the few remaining of the old time style of flowing oratory. And he was certainly a fine character and greatly beloved by all the members who knew him. Then he had been pressed back into public service; just last year, I believe, agaiu had become the Mayor of Glenboro. So, we mourn his loss., Mr. Speaker, and I am sure that there are others in addition to the First Minister and myself that would like to express their appreciation of one or both of these public servants who have gone before us. Mrs. Ferg.

I am sure, will be particularly bereaved because the family has grown up and is away and I am �ure that she will be, to some extent, comforted by the fact that this House and a lot of friends that Frank thought so much of, take the time to extend their sympathy to her and their appreciation of Frank. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to associate our group with the thoughts of condolences to both of these gentlemen. First of all, it was my pleasure to have many a chat with the late George Milne during the time that he_yva,s here and I was here. I always found him to be an upright and honourable gentleman.

At any time we had any problems that he was concerned with, we found him most co-operative and I am sure that it is with great regret that all of us in this group who knew Mr. Milne will miss him. So far as Francis Ferg is concerned, Mr. Speaker, even today when I heard of the tragic news of his passing I looked over at the seat which is now occupied by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet and pictured a fine gentleman who was very correct and precise in everything that he did. And as the Leader of the Opposition has said, I think that Frank Ferg was truly a member of the old school.

I wonder sometimes whether it wouldn't be better if we had more of that type in here because of the fact that everything was right and everything was precise. I recall on many occasions when the honourable gentleman stood up, he wanted to be and was so exact in how he addressed Mr. Speaker, how he referred to any member of the House as the member for this constituency or that. And not only that, Mr. Speaker, his very able contributions to the debates in this House.

I am sure that those who had the privilege of sitting with him, a.'ld he only entered the House the same year as I did after the election of 1953, but during the period of his tenure of office in this Legislature he did make a very valuable contribu tion to this House and we of our group would associate ourselves with the Honourable the First Minister and the Leader of the Opposition in extending to his widow and to his sons, our regrets at his passing. And as is well known, I believe he has two sons, both of whom are distingUish ing themselves in their respective fields.

We join in the tribute to the late Frank Ferg. MR. SPEAKER: Members rise in token of respect to the late member. MR. ROBLIN: Mr." Speaker, I have the honour to move, seconded by the Honourable Miruster of Public Works, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion. MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Before putting that question I have something to bring to this House which I think is of utmost importance to the farmers who have been making applica tions under the Storm Emergency Fund.

It was during the debate, Sir, that the regulations of this fund was brought to your attention that certain conditions took the individuals out of the capacity of being eligible to collect under this fund. One of them was the farmers that were in the PFAA districts. It was during that time that I held my reservations in regards to this be cause sometimes in theory it doesn't work out just the way you figure it does. But today it has been brought to my attention on very reliable sources that a farmer, a young farmer, starting up this year, farmed on a quarter

section of land which I can give the Minister of Agriculture if he was here and his name, but this farmer put in 30 acres of wheat and 100 acres of flax. I mentioned last night that there was lack of rain -- in places there was too much:...-but this farmer had to plow his wheat under for lack of rain, the 30 acres, and left him 100 acres of flax. Page 1472 March 11th, 1960

·( Mr. Dow, cont'd) ••••• The snow came, and that 100 acres was covered. It's still there. He is in a PFAA district and the amount of money that he has received from PFAA is $100. He has returned the cheque to PFAA and wants to apply under the Provincial storm Emergency Fund and if he could get away from the regQ.lations of PFAA he could collect $390, so I point this out to the House, Sir, that there is a discrimination in the regulations of. those farmers collecting under PF AA and not being eligible.

I would wish that the government would take under consideration some scheme whereby the individuals under PFAA would get at least as much as they would have, had they not been in the area . I have other examples --this is a fairly exaggerated example, I'll admit, but this is a case, an actual case, of which I can give the First Minister his name and the

section if he so desires, but it's sozrething that's creating a very great hardship to this particular individual and others. This chap, this is his only livelihood, this farming, and he is in that position, Sir, and I bring it to the attention of the House. MR. ROBI.JN: Mi. Speaker, I'm not at liberty to speak in this debate because I have already taken

part in it but my honourable friend can be assured that we'll take note of his remarks. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for st. Matthews please take the Chair? MR. CHAIRMAN: Last night in the number 3, two or three items were left to stand. One was the (

a) Administration and Operation -- the yellow sheet that was placed before us was going to be gone into and I think the Minister perhaps will proceed from there. HON. JOHN THOMPSON, Q.C. (Minister of Public Works) (Virden): Mr. Chairman, are we starting at (j) (3)? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Administration and Operations, that's the one we're going to deal with. MR. THOMPSON: No, I have no further comment at the moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: •.•.••••• (1) and (2) of (

a) was left over. We didn't discuss it at all. (Interjection) 25. MR. PAULLEY: Well we're on 3 (a), is that what it is, and then we'll go back to the (j) • That• s fine. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chairman, I believe there were also a number of questions that the Minist�r was to get further information on. Does he want to deal with the information on that first or does he want to go into new material first? It makes no differ ence to me. MR. THOMPSON: I would be glad if the honourable members would· carry on the discussion. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I understood that the reason for letting Administra tion and Operations stand was so that either there or on the Highways or Planning or some of those on the next page that the program that the Minister had laid on our desks could be dis cussed and it was decided that it would be best of all to let the Administration and Operations item stand and that the highway program would be discussed at that time. I think perhaps what the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose had in mind was perhaps the Minister wanted to answer some of the questions or would he prefer to go on with (

j) and then come back to the road program. I think either would be satisfactory. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, on (j) (3) some questions were raised on the decrease . in the amount of the estimates. I want to point out that in the fiscal year 57/58 $711, 556. 06 was spent on this item, and on 58/59 $896, 265.21.

Now it is anticipated that the expenditure for the current fiscal year, that is the one now closing, will be $850, 000 so that the estimate for the coming fiscal year is $75,000 higher than the amount which is being expended in the fiscal year closing; therefore, I would like to point out to the honourable members that there will be no reduction in expenditures this current year. It is likely that expenditures on market roads in unorganized territory will be increased to a certain extent. But there will certainly be no reductions.

The amount actually expended is lower than the vote of last year but the amount which we are estimating this year is $75,000 more than will be expended by the end of this month, so that. I believe honourable members, especially those who represented ridings which included unorganized territory, were worried that we were cutting down on the program, there March 11th, 1960 Page 1473

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd) .... is no such intention. We feel that it will be somewhat higher but we're bririging estimate more in line with the amount which is actually being used. MR. TANCHAK: ...•.... •. spending the amount estimated in the last year. Could the Honourable Minister explain -- no demand or .. . ? :MR. THOMPSON: It simply wasn't requested. Of course these expenditures are based on the requests of the school districts and citizens in the areas. There was no - - I don't know of occasions where requests for-market roads or school district roads were rejected.

There ha:ve not been the requests to equal the amount of the estimate. NIR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, if I heard the Minister say correctly that there was no request. I have been putting in petitions •.. :MR. THOMPSON: There were no more requests than the amount which has been expended. MR. WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I misunderstood the Minister but since 1958 I've been presenting petitions and delegates were in, for having more market roads.

And as a matter of fact I was promised that some will be built in 1958 which they were not even built in 1959, and I'm somewhat sorry to hear that the Minister is even cutting the estimates down because as far as the Fisher area is concerned, and I can say Inter lake area is concerned, there is a lot to be done. More to be done than there is done at the present. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I'm certainly surprised at the reply that the Honourable Minister gives as the explanation why this amount of money wasn't spent because having repre sented a large part of unorganized territory for several years I know of no lack of demands for roads in those territories, _and I'm sure those members here who have unorganized territ ory will agree with me in that regard. There seems to be an almost insatiable need for roads in those areas.

Actually when I rise in this matter, I'm not complaining about the treatment in. my own specific area,. while we have further requests there that we want to have done, there has been a great deal of work done in the past and if the same policy is continued we'll soon have a good road system in our unorganized territor:J.Jbut surely that cannot be the explanation for this because to my recollection, every year the requests from the unorganized territory were higher than what was finally appropriated.

Certainly in my own district that was the case, that there were always some projects put over to the following year or portions of projects deferred because there wasn't sufficient funds. Now I simply can't understand how come now we didn't spend all that. Surely there must be some other explanation than the fact that there weren't requests. Insofar as the requests from the school districts that the Minister mentions, this is only a small part, I believe, of the total appropriation, as I remember it from last year's figures here, if this is correct. It amounted to $200,000 out of the $1,074,000.

The big amount there is the $874,000. Now this I believe is established iargely by my honourable friends' district offices; they are the ones who decide and recommend what the construction should be, and I'm sure that they have many more recommendations which they could put through every year, if there was surplus money. Frankly it appears to me here that the same thing is in the road program. It was built up to a bigger amount than what the government really had in mind spending, because if that's not the case I don't know why they didn't proceed to do it. I'm sure the projects were there. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, unfortunately I wasn't here last night and in the after noon I had asked the Minister some questions which I said that I was quite willing to wait until we get to the item for the answer. I understand that the Minister did not make comment on these questions as yet although I might be wrong; and if he hasn't I realize that we're consider ably past the item, but there were only six specific questions and if he has them there would he mind answering them before we leave the department. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, there were a few questions that I wanted to ask and I thought would come under this project

schedule and I just realized that that was only the Highway Branch. I feel that they should come under (j) (2) and that is already passed. I wonder if the Honourable Minister will let me ask these questions? It was on the help to, different municipalities. MR. THOMPSON: I'd ask them under the heading-- under the first item on this part when we get to it. We're going back to the first part. :MR. DESJARDINS:- To the project ..•.. Page 1474 March 11th, 1960

.MR . THOMPSON: Yes. MR. DESJARDINS: Thanks very much. MR. MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, before we go back, I wonder if it would be possible for the Minister to give us in the case of the unorganized territory --I'm not asking for it in the case of the school districts, because l realize there that some requests may come in which he may not have at this time -- but in the case of the unorganized and disorganized territories, could he give us the same type of report there as he has given us for the provincial trunk highways, that is the approximate mileages on the various projects concerned?

Because I would think that in order to establish this appropriation, there would have to be a fairly detailed estimate in any case and if he could supply us with that --I don't ask for it now -- if it could be supplies to us after I think it would be of considerable value to the members insofar as knowing exactly what is going on in this particular appropriation. MR.

THOMPSON: •...• give those figures to the honourable member but I should point out that I think that until last year these items were under two separate numbers in the list - they were (j) (3) and (j) (4), I believe -- so that if I give the honourable member the items which I can do, I think I haven't time at the moment, perhaps to add the two, but the (j) (4) item, of course, includes the market roads in unorganized territory as of last year and the (j) (3) in cludes the school district roads.

Now in grading, there is 215.26 miles of (j) (4) and 149.42 of (j) (3), and the total of that would be the work done; and gravelling 136.10 and 107 .55; and additional gravelling 138.6 and 96. 75; and drains 44.43 and 7. 30; and number of bridges was 13 under the first part --under the market roads part (j) (4). Those are the figures which are now included in this particular item representing the mileage done in the past year. MR. MOLGAT: What I was really wondering about, Mr.

Chairman, is whether it would be possible to have a project schedule, such as is given to us here in this green sheet for the provincial trunk highways. Now as I recall last night the Minister told us that now there is something in the order of 1689 miles of lOO% government roads. I think that's the figure he quoted us now-- that means that the lOO% government road is quite an extensive item.

It doesn't quite approach yet a provincial trunk highway, but still it does mean a great number of miles, and if we could have the same information for that type of work as we have on provincial trunk highways, I think it would be very useful to the Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: (j)

(3) Passed (4) passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I think the Minister was to give us some information here on how-- what was the reason for the decrease in the appropriation? MR . THOMPSON: Yes, under (j) (4) this ·covers the ferries. The old ferry at Hecla Island was replaced with a new ferry and it is anticipated that as a result of the replacement of the older one with a new ferry that there will be quite· a considerable reduction in mainten ance costs, so that this item has been reduced on that account because of the new instalment which has taken place there. MR.

MOLGAT: ... .•.•. these are covered by this item now, Mr. Chairman, is there any change from last year? MR. THOMPSON: No , other than the replacement there, there are no other changes. The ferries are at the Narrows on Lake Manitoba known as the Lake Manitoba Narrows Ferry and the Hecla Island one which I have mentioned and crossing the Winnipeg River at St. George known as the st. George Ferry. MR . MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, I'm surprised that a change in a ferry can account for that much of a decrease because the previous Minister last year gave us the figures that when he appropriated $50, 000 in June that the Hecla Ferry would cost $22, 000 to operate; the Narrows Ferry would cost $22,000 to operate; the St. George Ferry would cost $6, 000 to operate.

He based his $50, 000 figure on the basis of those three, now in order to reduce the appropriation from $50 to $39 which is a drop of $11 -- if it all comes out of the Hecla opera tion then that would mean that that would be reduced from $22, OQO to $11,0 00, cut exactly in half? MR. THOMPSON: No, the Hecla Island Ferry is now estimated at $18,500, the Lake Manitoba Narrows at $16, 000 and the St. George at $4500. MR . GUTTORMSON: What accounts for the reduction in the operation costs of the Narrows Ferry, Mr. Minister? -March 11th, 1960 Page 1475 ·

MR . THOMPSON: We're replacing -- we• re making a considerable change there in the ferry, a remodelling job if you might call it that or an improvem�nt which will take less maintenance. costs. MR .

MOLGAT: I'm quite prepared to accept my honourable friend's figures but then the ones that the Minister gave us last year were certainly off the bat because this is what he told us under estimates in June of last year when we were discussing these; and I realize that it's not this Ministers but his predecessor; but the figures which he gave us then when we asked him why the increase, he told us that those were the estimated costs. However, that's not too important.

What I'm really concerned about is that there will be no reduction inthe service given on the ferries insofar as hours of service, frequency and so on --that there is no plan change there . MR . THOMPSON: No; service will, I expect, be better than ever. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, last session I asked the Minister to consider extending the operation on the Narrows Ferry and if my memory serves me correctly he told the house at that time that he would give it consideration. Would the Minister tell us now whether they are planning to increase the hours of operations of the Narrows Ferry? MR .

THOMPSON: No, I'm sorry I can't make any comment on that. I regret, that I have no information on any proposed change -- you mean the hours per day, not the season of course, but the hours per day? No, I'm unable to comment on that at the present time, I will look into it. MR . HAWRYLUK: Mr. Chairman, there is just one item yesterday! asked the Minister but. I don't think he had the figures -"-what is the total trunk highway in this province, the secondary highways and other roads that are maintained by this province? I think you just gave me the figure for the trunk highways, Sir. MR .

CHAIRMAN: .••. ffuishing these items when we come to them. (4) passed, (5) passed. MR . CAMPBELL: Last night on

(5) Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister has the report on that one? MR . THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, this covers a grant which is paid to towns and cities and suburban municipalities, and is received by those municipal centers who chose to maintain their highways within their limits.

The government pays in this grant the sum of $1, 000 per mile; the alternative, of course, is that the government does the maintenance themselves, the municipality doesn't wish to do it; and in that case, of course, there is no grant but where the municipalities pay the -- or choose to maintain the provincial highway within their limits they rec eive that $1, 000 per mile grant.

Of course the reason here is simply that under the pre sent highway standards municipalities normally haven't the equipment to maintain these roads so they choose to let the government do their own maintaining rather than accept the grant of $1, 000 for that maintenance purpose. In the last year, I think, the sum paid under this was $37, 882.52, w]1..ich is lower a little bit than the amount that we are estimating at the moment, so that the�e is no indication of any need in increase over the amount which is now actually being expended in this matter. MR.

CAMPBELL: The big item in this one is Greater Winnipeg, is it not? Does the Minister, Mr. Chairman, have the figure for Greater Winnipeg, and then any of the other larger centers like Portage la Prairie, Brandon, Dauphin -- any of those? I don't care about all the smaller ones but the bigger ones. MR . THOMPSON: Yes, I will be glad to give the figures for the City of Winnipeg; that is. the figures I have are for the fiscal year '59-59, which indicates, I believe, the use which is made of this type of grant.

The City of Winnipeg is $29, 960, North Kildonan $2, 000, City of East Kildonan $1650, the City of Brandon was $5, 160, St. James city $3560, town of Dauphin $1490, town of Flin Flon $1690, and the rural municipal of Fort Garry $776.52. MR . CAMPBELL: ••.... Mr. Minister. MR . THOMPSON: Apparently they wish that the government do their own maintaining. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item passed. Now we revert to 3 (a). MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, before we •.• •••• that there, there was another question that I had asked on the item just before the last item of (

i) I had asked the Minister if he would be able to produce the correspondence between the former Minis:ter and the Page 1476 March 1lt}i;�1960.

(Mr. Camp bell, continued) . .• municipalities concerned with regard to the Goodlands-Waskada Coulter road; and has he been able to look that up, Mr. Chairman? MR . THOMPSON: No, I haven't had an opportunity to obtain that information. I will be glad to endeavour to supply it on an order for-return. MR . ROBLIN: We'll supply it anyway, and with an order or informally. MR. CAMPBELL: I had asked the Minister last night if he would be willing to supply it, and I took it that be had no objections -- so I don't like putting it nn an order for return if it is agreeable to supply it anyway. MR . CHAIRMAN: a

(1) Salaries. MR . WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I have before the last year's estimates here and the program of the road building and I here don't see Fisher Branch Highway to Hodgson which in July the former Minister promised 11 miles of grading and gravelling and structure and here - this year is doesn't say. Isn't that highway going to be built in 1960? Highway No. 7 -- it's 11 miles from Fisher Branch to Hodgson.

In July program the former Minister had it on the program and I don't see it in this year's program and I also would like to bring to the Minister's attention the road east of Fisher Branch which was built last year four miles and it is only reading here on this program, 1960 program, it says it's going to be only additional gravel. Isn't the ••••. MR . CHAIRMAN: •.•••••••• is it going to take this Highway and start down, the _questions may come as you come to those different roads. MR . WAGNER: As far as the opening remarks, Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister said that there was no re-sh uffle of the

schedule or anything. It's going to be carried on as was in the July road program but it isn't in the 1960 March program now. MR . THOMPSON: My honourable friend misunderstood my remarks at the beginning. I thought I made it clear that in view of the various circumstances which were mentioned at the time, that certain roads in the July program which was presented last summer would be re scheduled; some of them are in this program; some will be moved forward to the neAi: year. The road you mention is one of the ones which is being forward to next year. (interjection) Whichever term you wish.

I think we're always moving forward. MR . W AGNER: Mr. Chairman, could I ask what was the reason for delaying one year behind when the former Minister had it on the

schedule and as a matter of fact I believe he would have been going through with it if it wouldn't have snowed. He would have started even last fall, but it snowed and everything was paralyzed. I agree with that but somehow it's very odd to me that in 1960 summer since it was scheduled more or less for '59 fall by the former Minister and now it's out completely. Is there any certain reason for it? MR . THOMPSON: No, my honourable friend is quite correct.

It certainly is not in the list but in his area we have especially -- at least not directly in his area but in l:.Js engineering division, we have a huge program which is going forth this year especially the one from Gyp sumville north and it was simply found by the -- or recommended by the department that it was impossible to complete that road this year and it was recommended that it be re-scheduled till the coming year. That is the reason it was done, we were simply unable to include it in this year's program. MR . WAGNER: Mr.

Chairman, I will find myself awkward explaining to the people and since they are out there waiting, they take it for granted it's going to be 1960 and Gypsumville is in the St. George constituency and that will sure surprise them. It really is a surprising thing for me to find out tonight that it isn't on the program. I never expected -- I took it for grantedthat since it was in July 6th, 1960/61, it is going to be carried on and here we have 1960 and 61 program and it's not even on the list, on the program. MR . WRIGHT: Mr.

Chairman, I asked this question last night and if the Minister would like me to ask it under this item. I referred last night to Highways running northerly and northeasterly from the city. I refer to Highways 6, 8, 4, then No. 9 and No. 59 on the east side of the Red River and on the northern perimeter road there's been considerable work done this past two years.

I notice that the signal lights have been installed at the CPR Beach Line; this road has been used this last few weeks; I would like to know whether it's officially open or whether -it'_s being used unofficially, and inasmuch as it's now shown on the works program for hard surfacing for 1960, I would like to .ask the l\4inister does his department contemplate March 11th, 1960 ; Page 1477

(Mr. Wright, continued) .•.•. doing this work this summer. And while I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, I want to commend the government and the department for its interest in taking over the six miles of the River Road, this very scenic road which is enjoyed by a lot of people, is for the first time this year, to be taken over and looked after by the government . MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, when we were discussing highways yesterday, I did not make any general comments on the matter as I was waiting until we got to the item which is what I understood the Minister preferred us to do.

Now I want to say at the outset that I feel extremely sorry for the Minister. I sympathize very deeply with him. The task that he has taken is a very difficult one; the promises of his predecessor and of his leader have certainly put him in a most difficult position and that is exemplified perfectly by the breakdown which was handed to us here last night, because when one goes through this to see what is here that is new and see what is being completed from the previous program it is certainly a very revealing situation.

By my estimate, there's something in the order of 183 separate items at least listed under the remarks column -that's the total I get --and out of those, I find that 78 are merely completions of previous contracts. Now that is, I know. and the Minister said was on account of weather conditions and so on but as was pointed out by the "Speakers yesterday, we have weather conditions coming up every year.

I well remember back in 1955 and 56 the time of certain by-elections that my honourable friend the then Leader of the Opposition and the now Premier, had a great deal to say about what was not being done in roads and I think if there were bad years for construction one could hardly find any worse than 53, 54, and 55 when there was extensive flooding in various parts of the province; tremendous rainfall and so on, so while we're all prepared to admit this difficulty of weather, I think it is a continuing orie -it comes up every year and the real explanation, it seems to me, for this situation here is that" the previous Minister simply went ahead and bluffed and promised a great deal more than he himself or at least I'm sure the department could accomplish.

And in this regard I certainly don't blame the department in the least. I believe that they have done an excellent job. It's the government that has made the 1boob1 in this respect. If one looks and goes back to the program that was presented to us in the fall of 1958,and I won't run over all the roads there, I just want to consider the ones in my own area which I know best ..

For example, at that time on No. 5 highway there was to be seal coat from Eden to Norgate; then base course and bituminous mat from Norgate north of Laurier; and base course and bitiminous mat from north of Laurier to Ochre; then in June, July the same area again appeared and this time it was to be completely seal coated from Norgate to Ochre. The fact is, Mr.

Chairman, that at this stage the base course and bituminous mat is not yet completed, let alone the seal coating which was to be done according to the July estimates and as I recall the situation, it wasn't a question so much of weather it was the contracts were not let until fairly on into the summer; the work certainly wasn't started until the season was quite on.

Naturally when the fall came along, the work wasn't completed but the whole purpose of voting $33, 000, 000 in the fall of 1958 and according to my honourable friends was so that they could start this program first thing in the spring and yet it didn't seem to materialize. To go on from there to the other constructions in my area --there's to be three miles from PTH No. 5 to the Riding Mountain National Park on No. 19 highway.

That was to be graded, gravelled and structures --that's fall of 1958, Come along to summer of 1959, my honourable friend then was going to put additional gravel and prime on that same piece of road, and as far as I know the road was never even started. All that was done on it to my knowledge was that some stakes were put up. I regret that my honourable friend the Attorney General isn't here, beca•1se he is a specialist in this matter of stakes and I would like him to come and check on these because I found no work and now when I look at the new projects for next summer I don't find No. 19 highway on it at all.

It's disappeared; it's been moved for ward I presume; re -scheduled, like my honourable friend's from Fisher. Well, it was to be built as I say back in this 33 million fall of '58; it was to be completed in the slimmer of 1959, and yet nothing has been done. To go on then from there --the next piece of work which I remember-was to be done was on No. 50 highway. Now on that part of it I have to give the Minister or the Department credit, there was gravel and prime --I believe that part of it was completed on 7. 5 miles.

Then there was to be another piece of 6 miles of grading and gravelling; that's again the fall Page 1478 March"11th. 1960.

(Mr. Molgat, continued) ...•. of 1958- grading and gravelling 6 miles. We 0ome along to the summer of 1959 and the same piece of road, and it was no longer included; it wasn't there. Well the work was to be started. The fact of the matter is the work again was not completed and it appears this year again under gravelling completion of contract. Now that is insofar as the provincial trunk highways --I think the total of the work that was to be done in my constituency.

Now, when we look at that not one of them, with the exception or one 7 mile piece, none of the others were completed; all of them were left in the air, and yet when the Minister spoke to us yesterday he told us that the complete construction as I have the figureS here for 1959 were 2, 245 miles completed. Is that correct? Well I must ask them that where that completion was because it certainly wasn't in my constituency and if mine is any sample of what was done elsewhere in the province then I question this figure of 2, 245. It appears to me, Mr.

Chairman, that the whole fall 1959, 33 million was strictly a propa ganda move at that time because the results certainly haven't been there and what this appro priation in the summer of 1959 was for, then I cannot see because it was to do work which, or to finish work which wasn •t enacted under the first program. And I think the question arises here that the department asked for 33 million, an appropriation that is to borrow 33 million in the fall of 1958, and then again at the summer session of 1959, they asked us to appropriate another $19,381, 000.

My question is, was this money borrowed and if so, how much of it was spent? What is left over from that 33 million and 19. 3 million because I presume that the Minister will be presenting us again with a Capital Bill when we come along to that item and I think we have to have the information as to what went on these previous ones because if the completion isn't going to be any better than it has on the past two, then I question the point of much more analysis.

Now coming back to the appropriation for this year I want to ask this specifically to the Minister, what about No. 19 highway-- 3 miles but -- a short piece, 3 miles, but it happens to be a very important piece of road because it connects our No. 5 highway with the Riding Mountain National Park. It's the eastern entrance to the park, receive s a great deal of traffic and that one little piece of three miles is in poor condition; because of shale difficulties with the Riding Mountain a

section of the road floods regularly with even a small amount of rain and it's urgent that the work be done. Now it's been rem oved completely from the program and I would like to know wh)l :::'nd wben is it going to be done, because it was specifically put in in the fall of 1958. So I would appreciate from the Minister his comments. Now I want to repeat again, I feel very sorry for him in this regard; I don't want to insist on information which I don't expect him to have instantly. I am prepared to wait for the informa tion.

He is new in tbe .department but I think that the committee should have this information before we proceed to discuss further capital appropriations. MR. THOMPSON: Do I understand my honourable friend to mean that the information he requires is a breakdown of the mileage? I thought I had given that more than once. MR. MOLGAT: Insofar as the amount of money I would like to know, was all that money borrowed? The 33 million and the 19 million 3. If it was borrowed, how much of it was spent? And how much of it is being carried over. In dollars and cents, not in mileage. MR. THOMPSON: Now, Mr .

Chairman, I'm not sure whether we should discuss such matters as the monies voted and so on, under this item or under Capital Account. Certainly the honourable member is fully entitled to the information which he asks, but I have the impression at the moment that that particular phase of the subject perhaps would more properly be discussed under Capital Vote. If that• s acceptable to the -- MR. MOLGAT: That will suit me, Mr. Chairman, providing that the Minister will have the infor mation at that time. As I say I can't expect him, and don't expect him, to have all these details ready now.

Next year we may be a little more difficult on the honourable gentle man; for this year I am quite prepared to accept that. What I would like at th.e time then when we discuss the new Capital Supply for this department is to have the details on the past Capital Supply at the same time so that we can make a thorough disuussion. MR. THOMPSON: I would be prepared to discuss now, the monies voted and relate them to the monies which have been expended in the past two years, but I do feel that it is a subject for Capital Supply.

Now, on highway 19, I have checked that road, I notice it was one of the ones which was listed in last summer's statement and not in this year. I am advised by the department that the March 11th, 1960. Page 1479

(Mr. Thompson, continued). • . construction of this road has been delayed pending the solution of the drainage problem on the east slope of the Riding Mountain National Park. Now that is the reason why that particular road has been delayed. I want to assure the honourable member that it is not wiped out. As I said, I think, at the beginning of these estimates, these roads are not cancelled, they will be proceeded with, but in his case on No. 19 there is a particular reason as in these other cases. Now in 5 of course, in this year's statement he men- tioned highway 5.

I see it in here in the program, two strips on 5, 18 1/2 miles from Norgate Corner to north of Laurier and 19.7 miles north Laurier to Oak River, both cases base and bituminous mat which are completions of contract. Those were part of the many programs which he mentioned which await completion this coming season and we were unable to proceed with the seal coating of course, simply because the former step, the base and bituminous mat has not yet been fully laid. · MR. DOW: Mr. Chairman, I notice in the sheet presented to us last night that there is a seal coat job between highway 23 and 3.

It's not included in the sheet. That job was started last fall. Some part of it has been done. Is there some reason as to that being held over or is it being continued with? MR. THOMPSON: Is that 18? MR. DOW: Pardon me? On No. 10 from highway 23 to highway 3. It was in last summer's estimates. MR. THOMPSON: In last summer's estimates the item of seal cotaing was included. Is that true? My information is that a bituminous recap is to be placed there in conjunction with the paving of PTH 3 from PTH 18 to PTH 10 and that will be done in place of the seal coating, in lieu of seal coating.

There will be a bituminous recap in conjunction with the other work which is going on in the area. MR. DOW: Does that include No. 10, Mr. Minister? MR. THOMPSON: Yes, that's 10. MR. DOW: That is it will include 3 to 23 to 10. MR. THOMPSON: The junction of 3 to the -- yes on 10 from 3 to 23. MR. DOW: On 10? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. MR. DOW: As well as from 18 to 3? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. MR. DOW: I mean it doesn't read that way. I was just wondering if there was - because that particular work was started last year and they have been working on it all winter getting ready for the spring.

I was just wondering if I read it wrong. MR. THOMPSON: Which item --you're reading under item 10� MR. DOW: On highway 10. MR. THOMPSON: Yes . MR. DOW: On highway 10 there's no mention made of from highway 23 to 3 which showed last year. And thim it shows on highway 3, there is the bituminous mat from -- well it's from actually highway 18 to 10. That's two distinct highways. MR.

THOMPSON: On 3 there's 18 1/2 miles from Killarney to PTH no. 10 base bituminous mat and that is the advice I have on the subject that a bituminous recap will be placed in conjunction with the paving which is in the book in lieu of the seal coating. MR. DOW: Now what I mean, Mr. Minister, is, is it from 3 to 23 on 10 because if you give that answer I could explain it a little more? From 3 to 23. MR. THOMPSON: The 19 miles strip on 10. MR. DOW: Well where do I get that item, Mr. Minister? MR. THOMPSON: It's not in there. MR. DOW: Oh, it is included though? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. Did you have some comment? MR. DOW: No.

I was just going to sa y it was started last year and there is part of it done in a kind of mixed-up way, and was caught in the bad weather, and I was wondering if it was going to be one of the ones left over or be done this year because as you know that highway is the second highway of approach for tourist trade into Manitoba and I didn't want to see it left Page 1480 March 1�tn, 1960.

(Mr. Dow, continued) . • . • • in that condition for the summer months . MR. THOMPSON: It will be recapped yes. It will have a coating placed on it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, on page 11 of this green pamphlet, in the middle of the page, PTH 59 south -- east to Grunthal. Now I'd "like a little clarification if I could, please. First of all it says 15 miles,

whereas it is only half that distance from 59 to Grunthal, running east from No. 59 highway, 15 miles would take it over to No. 12 highway. I was wondering which is correct. Is the highway running to Grunthal or is it running the 15 miles east of 59 highway? And secondly is this an access road or provincial trunk highway, or a lOO% road or just what is the designation of this road? MR. THOMPSON: That will be a lOO% road from 59 east. The mileage given is 15 - yes it will be 15 miles. That is provided in the statement here. MR; ROBERTS: The question, Sir, was, it says east to Grunthal,

whereas it is only 6 _ or 7 miles east to Grunthal. 1f it is 15 miles it will carry it all the way to Sarto or No. 12 .. highway. Now I wondered whether the 15 miles was correct or the description east to Grunthal was correct? MR, THOMPSON: Well, I am afraid I'll have to check on that. I quite agree with the .honourable member. The 15 would cover from 59 to· Grunthal at least 7 would cover that distance, 15 would cover right to No. 12 past Sarto. The location will be via Grunthal although _-·the complete location has not been decided. It Will be a lOO% road.

I am unable to say whether ... :this is intended to mean for this year the full 15 miles or whether that figures should be 7, I'll ·_. '. :advise the -honourable -- ' MR .• ROBERTS: You will get that information for me please, because that probably is the ·-hottest subject in southern Manitoba at the present time. MR. THOMPSON: Yes, there is a conflict in the distance there. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, at the last session of the Legislature the Hous e passed estimates for 35 miles on No. 6- -miles of road widening, or shoulder widening as it's :called here between st.

Laurent and Eriksdale ana the Minister told the committee this work would be done next year. At the present time the stakes are all up along the highway and in this year's program there is no mention of the shoulder widening. Could the Minister tell us · if it's going to be done or the reason it isn1 t in this year 1 s program ? .- MR. THOMPSON: No it's not in this year's program.

My advice is that that road is going to carry-a tremendous volume of traffic this year in view of the construction of the Gypsumville Grand Rapids road .and it is deemed advisable. to leave the Widening of the shoui ders there he- . cause it may._be a possibility that the road in the area which the honourable member mentions "Viill have to be ·rebuilt.

It is felt that it perhaps is not timely to broaden shoulders in a case where the entire structure may have to be rebuilt as a result of the tremendous volume of . traffic which will of necessity be permitted over that road in:the coming year to build a .northern road. MR. GUTTORMSON: The Minister's answer is tmderstandable. I was wondering when ·. they decided this because the road is already staked out for 'widening and we knew this road to "the north was going up when this estimate was passed. . MR •. THOMPSON: When was it staked? � ·MR. GUTTORMSON: Pardon? ·- MR.

THOMPSON: When was this staking·done? . . •·· MR� GUTTORMSON: During the past few months, after the road building season. -:' MR. THOMPSON: ·Yes, of course the decision on the Gl:'and Rapids road came to our ·-.department in December. Now I don't know ·whether t!le stakes· were put in after that, I wouldn't think so because it is my advice that this should be held up until the decision is made : . on what .has to be done after the road north is completed, or started • . , • 1VIR.

GUTTORMSON: I accept that answer because l'm not prepared to say whether it was · before December or not, 1 know -it was during the winter months,. after the snow had come on the ground; MR. FRQESE: Mr. Chairman, I don't see 14 (

a) on the list. Is there no consideration given to the widening the shoulders out on 14 (

a) at all? MR. THOMPSON: It's not included in the list, no. I have no :information on that parti cular road but I'll certainly ask tlie department to investigate it. March 11th, 1960. Page 1481

MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, this one question on No . 6 highway, the Minister said that in view of the heavy traffic that's anticipated, the road might have to be rebuilt. Would that mean the entire road from Winnipeg to Gypsumville or just sections of it? Just last summer parts of the road between Mulvihill north of Eriksdale to just north of Mulvihill was reconstructed. Could he tell the Committee if it's the. entire road or just sections of this No. 6 highway that might need rebuilding? MR. THOMPSON: I'm sorry, Mr .

Chairman, I cannot tell the honourable member just what parts of the highway should be reconstructed --if any -- that matter will be determined ·after the effect of the heavy traffic to the north location is determined; after we know what has been done and after the situation on various parts of the road is known -- after the northern heavy traffic has been over it. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, in this project

schedule on the first page the last item 5 miles Ste. Anne's Road No . - 1 to junction of -- should that read junction of 59, or is that further than that -- is that to this proposed overpass? . MR. THOMPSON: Which number? MR. DESJARDINS: The last item on the bottom of the page, page 1. MR. THOMPSON: Oh! Ste. Annes Road to junction of •• , . MR. DESJARDINS: Yes. No:,because No . 1 is the alternative Trans-canacta. MR. THOMPSON: No . 1. .. that's the amount there, that' s not. .. I'm not just sure. I can get that. information just in a few minutes if you wish to carry on. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, another thing I would like to ask the Minister on this 50-50 basis government share for the different municipalities -- some of these public works projects that have been approved last year but not finished, will the municipalities have to have that approved again? Well, could the Minister tell me then what project has been approved this coming year for the city of St. Boniface? They haven't been informed as yet. MR. THOMPSON: I don't think I have that information. I haven't had an interview with the city of St. Boniface to date. The department has but I haven't.

I'm not just sure what projects are included in the st. Boniface list for this coming year. MR._DESJARDINS: Would it be possible to find out at a later date because apparently they wanted to meet with the department and it's been next to impossible at this time, of course . They made their request quite a few months ago and have been advised they can come after the estimates . Well I think that's a bad time as there's no money in there and I don't know how this thing can be approved if the money is not voted. Now under (j)-in this help to municipalities there is a certain amount of last year.

What ·about the money that hasn't been spent, does that go in a special fund or does that go back to the treasury? MR. THOMPSON: No, it goes back to the treasury. MR. DESJARDINS: Therefore that money would not all be spent then. Well, Mr. Chairman, could the honourable Minister find out for me at a later date, tile project approved for the city of st. Boniface? MR. THOMPSON: Yes, I will be glad to. MR. DESJARDINS; Thanks very much. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, we don't seem to be following the sequence here so in that case I would like to ask the Minister with regard to those same questions I asked the other day, with regard to 4 east, from the se cond page. Twenty-two miles of base bituminous mat, some of this has been done, has been completed and part of it hasn't. How is this accounted for here, and in connection with this same item, what about the-- does the Minister have information there as to whether or not access roads to villages of Tyndall and Garson will be completed this year at the same time as #4 is worked onl' MR.

THOMPSON: No, I haven't seen the,actually seen the list yet for the coming year on access roads. It's under consideration at the present time but there is a possibility that the roads mentioned by my honourable friend might be included if there is construction in the area. That is one of the governing factors in access roads this year. But I am not prepared to say there may be. reasons for not doing it or for doing it. If my honourable friend wishes to consult a little later when they get the list in shape, I'll be able to advise him.

Now on the Lockport to Beausejour road - that's #4 east -y es, the grading there I am told started in 1958 . The , complaint was that it•s in bad shape -- is that it? Page 1482 March 11th, 1960 .

MR. SCHREYER: The substructure of .that road, is of course, in bad shape and despite that, surface bituminous mat and base was put on it. I made that complaint the other day. However, right now the point that I'm asking the Minister is I notice here tnat you have 22 miles base bituminous mat. Now Pm quite sure that if part of the road is complete, it wouldn't be 22 miles, Mr. Chairman. So unless the department intends to do it all over again -- I'm wondering. MR. THOMPSON: No, that 22 covers the completion of the contract. It doesn't neces sarily indicate that we're intending to do that road over again.

I might say that that road was begun, I believe, before we assumed office as far as I know. It was certainly instigated before we had the responsibility in connection with it; and it was proceeded with according to

schedule without making any particular changes in structure, but our responsibility simply was carrying on the project which had begun there. Continued on next page March 11th, 1960. Page 1483

:MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, I really have to say something about that state ment of the Honourable the Minister because it's true that that project was laid on before my honourable friends took over the government of the province but we had plans for that road that entailed the raising of it, and the black topping of it; and those plans , I'm sure would be available to the department but even so these statements of the Minister who succeeded our Minister was that the road work was going to be a lot better done from them; Now my honour able friend, the Minister, can't now say that they were carrying on the project that we had started because that was one of the key points in their policy -- was that they were going to build better roads, My point is that on this particular road -- it's one of the examples -- that it's not a better road, Ws a worse road, than we were building, and that the 8 miles that are completed are as wavy as all get out with "bump" signs up on them already.

Now I know that the modern machinery can put on what they call a levelling course and take some of those bumps out instead of putting more in -- and there were enough in that road to start with; and that's one of my causes of complaint, Mr. Chairman, and I'm not blaming this Minister. But the profession was made from that side of the House time and time again that they were going to build better roads.

"We 're never again going to build, 11 said the former Minister, "roads like 6 and others like that. 11 This road that has been built since my honourable friends went in, is nothing like as g0od as #6; and it has nothing like the grade that #6 has; it's down in some cases to prairie level and yet they're putting black top on it. Now that's just one of many cases, and I hesitate to have to appear to be criticizing my honourable friend because he is such an amiable gentleman, and I don't want to blame him for the failings of his predecessor because it was his predecessor that left him in this position.

And lb ecome -- what was the word this afternoon? -- a bit "emotional" when I talk about this matter because for so long we heard about this program of better roarls -- and some of the roads that have been built are good ones but they were all going to be good ones and this is a very main thoroughfare; this is a very . important road. Now I want to say something the same as the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose-did a - minute ago, and although you may think there was collusion between he and I, the fact is that we didn't work on these at all together.

We took a different approach to them, separately� I haven't the same figures that he has but I went over all of these items with the exception of the miscellaneous. I left the miscellaneous out because they a.ppeared to me to le largely new projects -- not entirely, but largely so I left them out; but I went over the regular road pro gram up to 89 and I won't guarantee my count. ·1 worit guarantee my additions and subtractions but at a very rough figuring of them there are 112 projects as I listed them mentioned'in the part up to miscellaneous and I just made a check.

I went through the program of 1958 , ·the program that was laid before this committee in the fall of 1958 and took out the projects that were mentioned by the Minister at that time, and Mr.

Chairman -- and this is subject to cor rection, if anybody can correct me, because this was a quick job that I had to do on it -- but as I checked it -- and I'd be delighted to have the officials of the department check me because that's why I'd like to give all the information out in advance so that my honourable friend can bring in the answers --·a s I add them up there are 55 items out of the 112 projects here, 55 of them were mentioned in the 1958 session, the fall session, to be done, some of them that fall still, said the Minister, and the rest of them in the coming year. 55 out of the 112. 57 that I esteemed to be new.

Now what I would like the Minister to tell us, apart from the shoddy work in some cases, and some of it is definitely shoddy, what I would like the Minister to: tell us is that when. practically half of these are completions and in many cases like this one. that. the Honourable Member for Brokenhead has mentioned, the major part still to be done, when something of that nature from a part to a 1o4of half of these projects remain still to be done·, what extra work wa.S .·done to make up all that program. that the Minister told us about. ·I 'd like to have that, Mr.

Chairman, and I can't expect the Minister to anticipate all these questions, that's why I'm giving them to him in advance so that he can get the information, and if he pre fers to bring the information in at the time of the Capital Estimates it's all right with me because I don't want to hold him up. I'm not trying to hold him up; but I ain trying to make the point that item after item after item in here, practically one-half of the work on the regular highway system apart from miscellaneous, practically one half of them are projects that were laid before this committee in the fall of 1958. And so, Mr.

Chairman, if the Minil:iter prefers Page 1484 March 11th, 1960 .

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) ..... to go into that question in detail at the time of the Capital Esti mates that's all right with me, because certainly I do not want to embarrass him by asking him about the individual ones now. But I would like him to give the answer at that time to this road that the Honourable Member for .Brokenhead has mentioned and I mentioned it earlier myself. I would like him to tell the committee why the , not one of the roads mentioned on the perimeter routes, not one of them was finished according to the program that was laid before us in October of 1958 . Not one of them completed. Why?

I'd like to know that. I'd like that information with regard to No .4 and I would like the Minister to take note of the complaints that I registered yesterday when I spoke because I don't want to take the time to go over all of them again, I'd like him to take note of them as they appear in Hansard, There may be an answer to some of these questions. I may be wrong in some of them because I haven't the facilities of the department, now, to get me the information. I have to try and dig this out for myself.

I would like to Iolow what has happened with regard to this other particular road that I mentioned on No. 12 and I give these examples so that the Honourable the Minister can get the information about them . I'm not going through all of these, but No. 12 -- Oh yes , before I come to No,1 2. I was certainly a day early in talking about Highway No.l O and attempting to deal with my honourable friend.

Here was my honourable friend from Swan River and I was ting the committee's time about whether the work was completed or not, and all the time the Minister had a green book prepared here settling the argument completely between the Honour able Member for Swan River and me , because while we were arguing over whether it was com _pleted or not, here is the Minister sitting the re with the document already prepared to show that

section No .1 , grading and gravelling still to be completed;

section No . 2, grading and gravelling still to be completed;

section No.3, grading and gravelling still to be completed; sect ion No.5, No.6, No.7, still to be completed. And here we were arguing about whether it was completed or not. If the Honourable the Minister would just have stood up and said, "well, but boys, I have the answer to that in my document here that I'm going to lay before you in a · few minutes and it shows that practically none of it is completed, so don't argue." But No .1 0- I guess that settle s that one .

I wanted to mention No. l2 and here I'm indebted to my friend _ and colleague the member for Em er son because I had been talking about the fact that I was so glad that this one road had been completed, Piney Corner to South .Junction, and some more work in there as well was completed, and I had been over that road two or three times last fall after it was completed and I was delighted to see that there had been just as conclusive an answer given with regard to these "better roads" that the Honourable the Minister now furnish es us with , with regard to the No .1 0 highway; because there was a road finished last year that certainly has not stood up well at all -- - hasn't stood up anything like as well as the piece that we did just immediately this side of it.

And so I asked the Honourable Member for Emerson if he could dig up the figures as to comparative costs , and the figures that he got from my ·h onourable friend the Minister -- and I thank him for his courtesy in making them available - has been nothing like as good as the piece that joins that we put in, cost 25% per mile more than ours did, and it's nothing like as good. I don't wonder that my honourable friend from Roblin exclaims over that; it's reason for it. And what co.uld possibly be the reason for such an increase as that and a poorer road, much poorer road.

The only reason was that this big boast about that we were going to have so much work done in the winter time , and they must have had those people out digging out in the ditches in order to run their levels and this sort of thing, on that great winter program and then an expensive construction job with a great deal of extra men on the project out th ere, with the result that our "good road" cost $7, 487 per mile , if my arithmetic is correct, and this "poor road" that my honourable friends built cost $9, 413 -p er mile .

Now I'm putting this in front of the Minister now so that he has an opportunity to get the explanation from the departmental officials and if the.se figures that I'm giving are not ,r ight then l would like him to correct me when the time comes. I'd like him t() tell us the st ory. Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to take the time to go through all of these but I did want to ask a particular question in connection with Highway No .l O, and it's not up on the famous lOO-mile

section -- it's long before we get to that. I notice there's a lot of work to be done on No .l O, and we have starting the very first of the sheet on No. 10 we have the 18th March 11th, 1960 . Page 1485

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) ••••• street in Brandon, the grading and gravelling. I presume that that's right through Brandon or right from the edge of Brandon City; and then Assiniboine River crossing. I .would like when the Minister gets the information or if he has it now, to tell us if that's a new bridge or a widening of the present bridge. And then we have north Brandon, the railway overpass structure -- I presume they're widening that one or something of that nature. But then we go right from there up to the the Minnedosa River Valley, and I was wondering what about the

section in between. It seems to me that the

section in between there is one of the most heavily travelled roads in the province of Manitoba. That area leading in from Minnedosa to Brandon, picking up the Rapid City traffic as it goes, and that's one of the few parts of No . 10 that has not been reconstructed as I remember it. I was wondering why there isn't some appropriation for work on that road. And then I was wondering if the Minister would also let us know, Mr. Chairman, what they are doing with regard to goingstraightthroughfrom Rapid City corner to join No.4 on the other side of Minnedosa. Has there been any decision made on that?

Perhaps the Honourable Member for Minnedosa is familiar with that area that I'm speaking of, and that's a part of the highway -- all the way from the Rapid City Corner, in fact all the way along that road from Clear Lake in -- that's tremendously heavily travelled and I would think that the department would be wanting to take out the bottle-n eck that exists in the Town of Min nedosa and to shorten up the distance for the huge numbers of people that use that road the year round and especially in the summertime .

I think that the Minister will bear me out and the Honourable Member for Minnedosa will too, no doubt, that that is one of the heavy travelled roads in the Province of Manitoba, and I would be interested in knowing what the plans are with regard to it. I've many more questions that I would like to ask on these different roads but if the Minister prefers that they be dealt with at the time of the Capital I have no objection to doing that, otherwise I would like to go right through quite a few of these, Mr. Chairman, before we leave this item. MR.

CO RBETT: Before the Minister answers that, the Hc.nourable Leader of the Oppo sition made some reference to what I said yesterday. He intimated that I told him that this

section was all completed. If he had listened to me yesterday he would have heard that I said on

section 1 there were 6 miles incomplete; on

section 2 there were 2 miles incomplete; on sec tion 3 there were 2 miles incomplete;

section 4 there was 2 miles incomplete; and

section 5 was complete. I made a slight error on No.6, but it's not quite -- there's a little trimming to do on that -- but I said it was complete; and 2 miles on

section 14. I did not say that the road was all complete. I was speaking from my personal examination of being over the road and I would ask the honourable gentleman has he been over the road lately? MR . CAMPB ELL: No, Mr. Chairman, I haven't been over the road at all -- not during this year, not during the year 1959 at all, nor this year, but I would say that I have the program of the department in front of me and it is the program of the department that I am quoting from and it says that it's not complete. My honourable friend says that he made one little mistake.

He did just make the one little mistake , he made the mistake of getting up to say anything about this at all. MR. CORB ETT: Mr. Chairman, I think I'd ask for a slight apology there. I think as a member of this House I have the privilege of getting up here just as often as the Leader of the Opposition. MR . CAM PBELL: He made the mistake of starting to tell that it was practically com pleted, practically completed, Mr. Chairman, and the fact is that we now have the information from the department itself, and it shows that not one of these sections is completed. MR .

CORB ETT: As ex-Premier of this province you have no right to tell any member of this House that he has no right to get up and talk, that I shouldn't get up and talk out of place . MR. CAMPBELL: It would be OK to get up and talk, the thing that he hasn't the right to do is try to pretend that it's practically completed, when it's nothing of the sort, Mr. Chairman. MR. THOMPSON: I could give some of the figures on that

section of the road, just to clarify the issue. From Mafeking to Red Deer River, that in the new program-- (Interjection) From Swan River to Birch River the seal coat project 27 .3, that has been completed 27.3 miles. Birch River to Maf�king base .course and bituminous mat project miles 15 .5 completed , 15 .5 Page 1486 March 11th, 1960 .

·(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) •••••• mile s of bituminous surfacing and gravel stabiliza tion (Inter jection) . From Mafeking to Red Deer Riv er,

section 1, grading and gravelling. The project was 14.1 miles 12 miles of grading has been completed out of 14. 1 and 12 miles of gravelling . Red Deer Ri ver to the Overflowing River, grading and gravelling, project was 14.4 miles, 11.3 has been graded and 11 gravelled. The Overflowing RiVer to north of the bog, grading and gravelling, PJ:C?lect 13.7 miles; 7.2 has been graded and 7 gravelled. North of the bog to Township 52 , grading and gravelling 14�9 and the project 14.9 has been graded and gravelled. MR . CAMPBELL: Bow many mile s? MR . THOMPSO N: 14.9. MR . CAMPBE LL: All of it ? MR . THOMPSO N: Yes.

Township 52 to Township 54 grading and gravelling, 14.7 was the project and 14.7 has been graded and gravelled. Township 54 to The i?as grading and gravelling, the project was 14.2 and 10 miles has been graded and 10 gravelled. Bituminous surfacing in that same division of the road� bituminous surfacing 14 .2 was the project; 3. 5 has been completed. Now we get over to on the Simon house. (Interjection)

Section 4 of the highway? That's Cranberry Portage to east of Baker's Narrows . Is that the •••• ? MR• :MOLGAT: No....... . ._ . . MR . THOMPSON: .Yes, yes, well that probably is not include d in this sheet; . MR . li/IOI!GAT: •••• �Member from SWan River just tQld us that.every:Uling but 2 miles of it was cOmpleted. · . MR . -THOMPsoN: Of the bog.? Yes, it will be completed very soon in a matter of a · \:ouple. of weeks •. MR . ·¥0LGAT: My two honourable friends aren't iil agreement. He says everything but 2 mile s, the Minister says it isn't completed. MR . THOMPSO N: It will be completed m a very short time.

MR . MOLGAT: What is the situation now? My honourable friend says that everything but 2 miles has been dOne --is completed. Is that correct? MR. THOMPSON: Yes, I think it woUld be less than 2 actually. I think it is almost completed. · · MR . CAMl'BELL : Does that include gravelling, Mr. Chairman? MR. THOMPSO N: No. I donit think so. Naw the other di vision. Cranberry Portage to east of Baker's Narrows is grading and gravelling; 14.8 was the project, 7" miles of-g rading and 14 .8 of gravelling, it says here.

East of Baker's Narrows to Flin Flon, base Course, bi�ous mat 20.3 miles of gravel stabilization , 20:3 of bitUminous surfacing. Yes, as of twO'..,eeks ago, roughly-, ·ibe first of Marchtl1e bog was 86% completed in. constriletio:D. of the gtade. lh ave the figures here on the excavation and so on and tb,e quantity of materliils ·moved and 8Q on. It was 86% completed as-of March 1st. It "\Vlll be completed aCtu'aily,, ahead of the sc�dule set. ·. . • . · · . :Now, by t:be w� on that sUbject at tbe hog, .it s-eems t.0 me it has been !Jlentioned that � contract was notlet in the fall of·•ss.

Well the sUrveying began in the f all of '58. lthink .it JmlSt be, understood by all .that in tbat �a, t.\le most reasOJ1able and perbap!J the 9nly time sUitablE� to work is in tile Winter� in tbe winter months. So in the winter of 15S-59 the survey -� was" :dolle ; the �yiug- was done through that Winter in tllB bog when they were able to do . ltj,eca.u$8 it Was will�.; And the ccmtract was.let �t ime fot the winter work to � done this . -�ar.

"beeause. the .on).y-re�le -and-practical and econoinica1:Ctlme to do tbe work .of building . . --'th&-raoo-was ·itl tbi&wmte� md _8o tllere \Va&-no.tim & lost:.!!B bas:been sugg eSted i:n this House and >tn 'tb9 �Ss >by tl!e:J{(Ct �- the' •c-Oil-ti::act:\V$d�t let- !tul: Iate in l�5S.

The work co\11� •t possi- .• : .. bqbe. �- hn�-� �fill'<�� ttiaj ls . .-hytbe. oon#\lcl was.n1h�t. -The 8utvey� .\vas .done · · ·-.�� T t! �� :w;t;!\��r =�� a::�::��:��;:�-� �:��t · 8"giJ.:in on-:bigh"ay 4e af;lt'tfuit �i-dillg to� @foriii atton lba.ye."thilt tliis project was in the . 'prD� .sui)thltted',by tbe formel: adiniirtstia'tion iii the �p)::fug of 158 and the preliminary engineering and· des.i,p had been finalize d at"thaninie , It was felt lmpqssi ble tO .change the design iil time to proceed with the project in that-year and it was proceeded with according to ·t.be planning and designing which was in effect before we came into office.

It has been � . ,March lltli, 1960. Page 1487

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) •••••.• constructed as planned by the administration of my honourable friends . Now similarly, in connection with highway 6 from Piney to South Junction, that grade was built -- or not 6 -- What's the number? 12, yes. From Piney to South Junction, that grade was built in 1954 and 1955. It took 2 years to guild that grade, those two years. That's when the grade was constructed.

Now, we have recently, I understand, as my honourable friend mentioned, built a grade -- at least put a surface on it, but I do want to say this; that that sur face -- that black road which you call surface there is not intended to be the surface . That is intended to be -- that black surface is intended to be a base course, rather than a pavement or a surface. . It is a form or road mix, it is intended that it will carry traffic on only a temporary basis. That road will need and will receive a bituminous mat.

The surface which has now been laid is a step -- a base course I am advised, which is a step forward to the final steps in the construction of that piece of road .. Now, there may have been certain other matters mentioned by my honourable friends.- that is, the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition. One was No .10 highway and I believe, as I heard him, that everything he said respecting the 18th Street construction, and the bridge_ and so on, through Brandon of No . 10 is correct.

I believe that is what is intended by this list that there will be a bridge and 1he construction of what is known as 18th Street through Brandon to join with No. l. Now the construction of No.l O north has been mentioned and as the Leader of the Opposition has stated that is a heavily travelled road and it is certainly a road in need of improvement. It is a road in need of reconstruction, there is no .doubt about that.

We are scheduling it forward 'till next year for a reason after what I have heard from the Member for Gladstone, I don't see here at the moment, from him and from others, that we're doing too much at one time . Sometimes apparently we're doing too much and other times we're not doing enough. Sometimes we're spending too much and other times we're spending too little , but apparently not.

But on No .l O north from Brandon to Minnedosa or whatever location that route take -- and the location has not yet been decided through to the area mentioned -- we have decided to leave that construction until No . 4 highway is completed because we •ve heard so much here in the last day or two even, and of course we've heard before the House even met about the construction on No.4 and the inconvenience which is caused by constructing a new road, so we're finishing this year, we're finishing as you'll notice by the program No.4 highway through to Neepawa, so that it will become a hardtop road and can carry the northern traffic.

It is thought inadvisable to proeeed with the construction of No. 10 north at the same time as the construction is going on on No.4 because they both, they both are locations which carry north ern traffic. And therefore we feel that it's proper to leave No . 10 till next year and finish No . 4 this year. That is the reason Mr . Chairman why it is not in the

schedule of project for the current year. MR . CAMPBELL: •••• reason Mr . Chairman. I'm very, very glad to get it, but I'd like to come back to the discussion about Highway No.1 2 down here Mr : Chairman. The Honour able the Minister says that this is not the permanent road, this is just a: sort of a base course, but I think he has seal coating in this year's program for it. Seal coating usually goes on the blacktop road does it not? And if it's not a completed road, Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister get the information as to why it would cost more than $9 , 000 per mile compared to just some thing over $7 ,0 00 for the part that joins it just on this side, that was built by these "other folks" that didn't know how to build roads anything like as well as the present government does. Why would there be that discrepancy in the cost and with one a much -- with the cheaper road a much better one than the other? The same remarks apply to the No.4 Mr. Chairman. Surely the former Minister was not reticent about changing any plans that we had.

After all he had said about our roads, surely he wouldn't adopt a program that we had laid out. Why he was "never" going to build that kind of roads again, and yet he would go and adopt ours. That's as -bad as him raising the standard of all ours to carry half as much weight again as it had been allowed to carry just before he took over the department. Now Mr . Chairman I think we'd have to have a better answer on both No .1 2 and No .4 than that. MR . TANCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, I wish to thank the Honourable Minister for the figures that he provided me with on No .1 2, I feel a little guilty but I'm sure that the Honourable Minister Page 1488 March 11th, 1960.

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd.) ••••• knew at the time when I did ask him for the figures that these figures will be used in estimates and I wish to doubly thank him for that, because he did give those figures, he could have held them back from me , I did it at the request of our leader. Coming tack to -- (Interjection) -- coming back to No. 12 , the South Junction road the sugges tion was made by the Minister that the road, the bituminous mat should be placed on it or reconstructed.

I think it was a very good suggestion; I believe that that road should be com pletely, the top should be completely reconstructed before the seal coating is put on. Probably he could do both this year; we would be very happy about it. I think that it will be quite in order here to commend the government on a few of the different roads that were done in my area.

We mustn't speak disrespectfully of the former Minister, we know that, and it isn't my intention to do it, because I'll have to admit here that my relations with him while he was in office were very good, I was very happy with some of them, although I have some projects that were promised that were not completed, but in lieu of that I had another piece of road done in that area which was not even mentioned in the -- when it came to estimates. A little shorter but still we had it done.

I wish to commend the govern ment in that part of my area for carrying out the program originated by the former administr ation as regards No .1 2, extending it, bringing it closer to completion and also on the Morden Sprague, which was started by the former government. The present administration did not extend the road a little farther last year and I understand that portion of it will be completed this coming year. I hope so, and I hope that relations with the present Minister, I'm sure of it , because the way I size the Minister up he doesn't wish to hurt anybody, and I'm sure he'll try to do the best.

I hope that next year when we do meet here that the Minister will have all the answers for us on the fingertips, not like this year, although we cannot expect him to do it · because the former Minister who's presently holding a higher position was officially adminis tering the department almost till the construction season was over, so whatever remarks I make here, I want to assure the Honourable Minister that I am not trying to put the Minister on the spot. I wish also to commend the civil service connected with this Public Works.

I think they as far as they could in carrying out the policies of the government, they co-operated splendidly. I sympathize with the Honourable Member from Fisher; evidently he was promised a road for 1959 and now the way I understand it will not come until 1961. Kind of reminds me of a joke about a child coming into school late, about two sessions late, coming in at ll:OO o'clock in the morning.

So he promised one day, "I'll be in time tomorrow for sure , " but next morning the pupil came in just as usual, about two hour s late and the teacher asked him , "now what is your excuse." He couldn"t think of one but he was a smart lad and all of a sudden says, "please teacher the wind was so strong that everytime I took a step forward the wind pushed me two steps backward." He says the teacher asked him how did you get here, he said "I turned around and walked backwards." So although you'll be two sessions late, but I hope he gets his road, I'm in the same position with regards to one road on Morden-Sprague, but let's hope that even although a little bit late that we'll have some progress in here .

The Government was supposed to be a forward g;Overnment, 20th century roads. Some of them .are not in perfect shape even in my area. We have the road 2 1/2 miles from 75 to Letellier Bridge that was left in a terrible mess last fall; there were trucks stuck there for two , three <lays at a time. Espeeially one truck I remember. Of course probably you couldn' t blame · maybe the department, he might have -- probably could have walked over that road and seen to it, but it was during the rain, I admit that -- (Interjection)-- Pardon. The road from the ·'15 to Letellier Bridge .

It is mentioned in the pres.ent estimates on this little green booklet that it is going to be completed this year. (Interjection) Not 33 • ••• There is another question I would like to pursue here , the road between the railroad track west of Vita, to Vita about two miles. The school district is complaining there that ''their road, the school district road was used as a detour extensively last year.

It was left in a terrible· shape, it was graded in the fall but it's pretty well broken up and it's softened up quite a bit andl think there has been representation here asking the government to do some thing about it to leave it in at least as good a shape as it was when this detour road was started. I would like the Minister to consider the completion of Morden-Sprague right down to Piney, connected with the famous No .1 2, maybe in the year 1961 . And I hope that the two March l:lth, 1960 . Page 1489

{Mr. Tanchak, cont'd.) ••.•. gaps now that exist, a gap at Stuartburn and the gap between Caliento which I think was supposed to be constructed between Caliento and V ita last year - but probably. the. rain or lateness of the -- the contract wasn't awarded -- I hope it will be com pleted this year. I also wish to commend the civil service in other action that they took. I understand from the people around that there was some irregularity on the Birch Point road.

In fact somebody tried to take a little money, a little more money there than was coming to him, but Public Works servants did catch him, catch the culprit and I understand that that has been straightened out, so I'll not go any farther than that; I think it's the right thing to do, for our civil servants to watch the peoples' money. I understand that that has been settled.

And there were several other complaints that I had, especially -- that's why this one was brought, the No,l 2, because there was very many complaints, the people felt that there was an awful lot of money spent on that road between Piney Corne·r and South Junction, that so much money was spent and not a proper road, a good road built, and we didn't like, the people didn't like to see the money wasted in that way and that's why they asked me to bring this up in the House . I'll have some further comments later on but I'll leave it at this point. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr .

Chairman, could the Minister tell us -- during the past win ter a number of contracts were let for the clearing of the road between Gypsumville and Grand Rapids . Some of the contracts stipulated that the work had to be done by hand clearing. Could the Minister say -- tell me where , how many of· those contracts were let where the hand clearing clause was in the contract and the approximate location of those contracts . MR . THOMPSON: Yes, Mr . Chairman, as I recall there were about four or five divisions of clearing between Gypsumville and Grand Rapids .

All the contracts have been let and the work has all been under way for some time. They all provided for hand labour for clearing in order to give employment to a great number of people, especially a number living in the area, especially those in the area. So that they have all been hand clearing. Now on the construction, two contracts -- the construction is divided into three stages, into three sections.

Tenders for the first two sections from Gypsumville north have been ad vertised; I think they -- either tomorrow or within a few days the tenders will close on those - on the actual construction of the -- {Interjection) -- Yes . The third one has not yet been let but it wilt be shortly. Two have been advertised so that that work I expect will get going just as soon as possible. MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr . Chairman, did I understand the Minister to say that all those tenders for clearing had the clause for hand clearing? Was it just not one or two of them ? MR.

THOMPSON: I have the impression that-- certainly the last three in the northern end were -- and I have the impression that they all were. I know that-- I feel pretty certain the last three north were. I think each division in clearing as I. recall , covered about 4 town ships; perhaps 24 miles or so was the length. of the

section for the clearing contracts . As I· recall they were all advertised for hand labour. MR. GUTTORMSON: •••. I understand that the tenders for the northern

section of the road provided for hand clearing but not the southern

section nearer -- closer to Gypsumville . I'm in agreement with the. idea of having hand clearing to provide employment for the Indians, but I was. wondering why the contracts near Gypsumville where there are three reserves, didn't have this clause --r could be mi staken but it seems to me they didn't have this clause in it. But I know one or two contracts that didn't have it all. It was just done by machinery. MR. THOMPSON: On that location?

Did you say you know of a contract that did not have a clause for hand labour -- {Interjection) -- If not all -- I would certainly check on that- but I have the impressi on that they were all let for hand labour, and certainly I can recall well that the norther three were I believe. Yes, the northern three and I thought they all were but I wouldn't swear to it at the moment. MR. GUTTORMSON: Is it the intention of the government to let all the contracts for the construction of this road this summer -- I mean between Gy:psumville and Grand Rapids?

Is it -- If the we ather permits do you expect it will be all completed during the coming summer? MR. THOMPSON: Yes, that is the objective during the coming year. MR . GUTTORMSON: Including gravelling? MR . THOMPSON: Ye s. MR. GUTTORMSON: On the green booklet here on #6 highway, the provision is made Page 1490 March 11th, 1960

(Mr. Guttormson , cont'd.) ••••• for a bridge and water control structure . Last evening I asked the Minister if he kn.ew where that bridge was going to go located , The reason I'm interested in this , Mr. Chairm an, we have been advocating in this H:mse that a contr()l dam be placed on the Fairford River s:o the level of Lake Manitoba could be controlled. Is this bridge being de signed or are other works going on as well as this bridge for control of Lake Manitoba? MR . THOMPSON: I don't know of any other projects that are going forward in that connection.

I know we're going to -- propose to build a bridge over the Fairford River on the highway there. I have no information on what other associa ted projects there mi ght be . MR . GUTTOR MSON: Well, it says in the booklet water control structure . MR . THOMPSON: I don't seem to have the information which my honourable friend has asked on that point. I'm afraid •.••• MR . CAMPBELL: On any of these cases where it is difficult for the Minister to find the information at this time, wouldn't it be a good plan for him just to take note of it and have it available when the .Capital comes up?

I have one or two questions that I could put in that category if the Honourable the Minister wishes. I think I asked yesterday , if I didn't I'd certainly like to put it on the record today that is; what contracts -- road contracts , have been let during the present winter season, that is fall of '59 or winter of '60 up-to-date . If the Minister hasn't got that at the moment ; he's mentioned on the Gypsumville to Grand Rapids road; I'd like to know what other ones have been let in the. way of highway contracts , Then, Mr.

Chairman , might I Rsk the Minister at the present time -- I see some projects here dealing with the north perimeter route -- is there any information as to the bridge in connection with that north perimeter route , that is the Red River bridge on the road going east and west? MR . THOMPSON: I have the contracts. MR . CAMFBELL: Have the contracts been let on those? MR .

THOMPSON: I'm not sure that I have the perimete r information here but I can give the Honourable the Leade r of the Opposition the num ber of contracts which were advert ised and awarded from October 1st, '59 to February 29, 1960 - 45 ; from June lst to Septamber 30th '59 (we are going backwards) -78 ; froni April lst to May 31 st - 47; there is a total in the 59-60 period or 170; in the previous year there was 57 let in the first period which !m entioned October 1 to February 28 ; and 88 in the second period, they're in reverse order , of course; and 39 in the third period, or a total of 184 projects .

Those are the figures for the last two years . MR . CAMPBELL: Thank you very much Mr. Chairman , would the Minister when Capital comes down have the facts with regard to the north perimeter bridge? MR . THOMPSON: Yes, I may have it tonight but I'm not just sure . MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr . Chairman, did I understand the Minister to say that there would be three contracts let for the Gypsumville - Grand Rapids road? MR . THOMPSON: For the construction of the highway in addition to the clearing .•.••• MR . GUTTORMSON: Is that right? MR. THOMPSON: Right , MR .

GUTTORMSON: The former Minister always criticized the policy of putting oil on the highways? Has the present Minister a different view on this, because I notice in the green booklet on highway 28 and highway 31 they are using double prime , and the former Minister said that this was very poor policy using double prime -- I wonder if this present Minister has a different view of that? MR . THOMPSON: Double prime is not the most desirable type of road surface but it is used where fiscal policy may not permit the bituminous mat or more expensive types of sur face , I certainly can't say that I like double prime .

It's useful . It serves a purpose . It's ce rtainly better than dust. It has. a service to render. It's cheaper than hard-top. It's a temporary method of surfacing a road over a period, but as the most desirable type of surface we certainly could not pass upon it as such. But as I do say it certainly as a surface it's much cheaper than bitum illlous mat, and, of course , a great deal cheaper than concrete , and it is dust resistant, and therefore is important as a surface on the highway. MR . GUTTORMSON : Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure that that's true beca use we've had a lot ot double prime used on #6 highway and it's proved very satisfactory for two or three years as a temporary surface . I notice in this yea r's estima tes that they're planning to do 5.2 mile s of March 11th, 1960 Page 1491

(Mr. Guttormson , cont'd.) •.•••. gravel and chloride; Is that a cheaper dustproofing of the roads than the oil? Can the Minister tell us at this time what the intentions of the government is regarding the perimeter route, where it meets the highways like #6 highway and #1 highway by the racetrack? Are they going to put overpasses at those particular location? MR. THOMPSON: Which location was that? That was at ;ff ••••• MR. GUTTORMSON: Well I'm interested in all the highways that intersect. The ones that I'm particularly interested in are #6 and 7, but I'm also interested in the others . MR.

THOMPSON: I think probably it might be in order to present a few remarks on the perimeter. I possibly will include the questions of the Leader of the Opposition. From Por tage to Oak Bluff, construction of reinforced concrete pavement and bituminous shoulders on this 6. 9 mile

section is well under way. It should be completed early in the '60 -61 construction season . Some portions of this concrete pavement consist of four-lanes while others consist of two-lanes, otherwise this

section is completed. The bridge over the As siniboine River and the structure over the Canadian National Railways Gladstone subdivision and Wilks Avenue have both been completed. In the area from Oak Bluff to Waverley Street two-lanes of concrete pavement and a bituminous shoulder on one side have been completed on this 6. 7 mile section. From Waverley Street to St. Mary's Road the construction of a concrete pavement on this 3 mile

section of highway including the ramps of the Pembina highway overpass will be undertaken very early in the summer. The Letellier overpass structure, the Pembina Highway overpass and the Red River Bridge of course are all located on this particular section. At the present time, of course, that

section is gravel -- that portion is gravel . From St. Mary's Road to St. Anne's Road all work on the two lanes of reinforced concrete pavement on this 2. 3 mile

section has been completed. From St. Anne 's to the existing Trans Canada Highway, two contracts for the grading of this 6. 5 mile

section of highway have been awarded and work on the same is underway. Contracts for the overpass over the Canadian National RPilv1ays and the Trans Canada Highway have been awarded and work is going ahead on that particular part of the perimeter. Construction of a reinforced concrete pavement on this

section will be commenced as soon as grading operations permit. From the Trans Canada to PTH 59 some preliminary survey work has been done -- that's what has been done in that section, some preliminary survey work on this 10 .5 mile section, but no construction has as yet been undertaken; I believe the Honour able the Leader of the CCF was enquiring about that. On PTH 59 .•.•. MR. CAMPBELL : Mr. Chairman, might I interrupt the Honourable the Minister there to ask if a contract has been let there ? MR. THOMPSON: No.

Acco rding to my information no contract has been let on that portion of the road -- that's on Trans Canada to 59 . From 59 to PTH 9 grading and gravelling has been completed on this 1. 9 mile section. · From 9 to PTH 4, the major work required in this

section is a bridge over the Red River and an overhead and cloverleaf at PTH 4; no con tract has been let on this particular portion. From PTH 4 to PTH 7 grading on this 7. 3 mile

section is completed; gravelling is under contract and should be completed early in the coming summer. Now of course the

section from PTH 7 west, there is no construction under way. That includes, of course; part of the PTH No.6 and it possibly is considered not quite as ur gent as some other portions of the perimeter. From PTH 6 south to Saskatchewan Ave . survey and design work on this 6. 7 mile

section of, the highway is practically completed. Some pre liminary work has been done on the proposed overhead over Rosser Road and the Canadian Pacific Railway mainline; and the

section from Saskatchewan Ave . to Portage Ave. ,

section of hgihway from the two points which I mentioned, Saskatchewan to Portage Ave . is completed with four -lanes of reinforced concrete pavement. MR. CAMPB ELL: That a very, very good description of the work, Mr . Chairman. I appreciate having it placed on the records . So far as the perimeter route is concerned at the moment then we have dealt with 59 as being the east perimeter I would think, Mr . Chairman. I was wondering if there has been any decision yet as to an outer-perimeter road along the east; instead of 59.

I think there is some consideration to picking out a location further out as the ultimate perimeter road on the east side, Has the Honourable the Minister anything on -- to report on that. MR. THOMPSON: I don't think there's any intention of -- probably I don't understand the question, Mr. Chairman. I just don't see how 59 becomes part of the :perimeter road. Did you suggest that it may? Page 1492 March 11th, 1960

MR. CAMPB:I!:LL: As the Chairman read them off, he detailed the perimeter road along the south and he went right out to the Trans Canada Highway but then he jumped from there up to the north perimeter road, and I was wondering if there's any thought of a connection other than 59 between - along the east side? . MR. THOMPSON: No. J read them in the manner in which they've been divided on the map. From the Junt;tion of No .1 and the perimeter, the proposed r-oute goes straight north for quite a distance amd then angles northwest and crosses 59.

There's no other association between 59 and the perimeter other than the perimeter crosses 59 in the south and again in the northeast corner of • • • • • · MR. CAMPBELL: ••••• projected it east of 59. MR. THOMPSON: Yes, east of 59 . MR. CAMP BELL: Thank you. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, if the Minister will bear with me for two minutes I'll be able to clear up these last two questions that! had. On page 3 with regard to Highway No.9, PTH 9, I notice that-2.5 miles of grading, base and bituminous mat are slated to be done from the south boundary of East St.

Paul to Hodinott Road, and my question is, is it the inten tion here to provide for extra lanes of traffic, or =erely to put an additional surface on the existing road? That''s No. 9, page 3. That's one question. W.Juld the Minister prefer to an- swer each one? .· · , MR. THOMPSON: •••• get that one located, that was on Highway 9 and the ---oh yes. East St. Paul to the Hodinott Road. It appears to be grading, base and bituminous mat, the y.rorks in other words. MR. SCHREYER: Just follow this up.

I realize that you might not have the information but the department is: in the Municipality of North Kildonan going ahead with the widening of the highways so that in effect there'll be two-lanes of traffic each way. I'm wondering if the in tention is to extend this to the case of East St. Paul to Hodinott Road. In other words will it be two-lanes of traffic e:ach way or will it be simply one-lane each way? MR. THOMPSON: I understand that the municipality are conduction certain construc tion in the area. Is that what you're telling us? MR.

SClffiEYER: Under the former Minister, a delegation from North.Kildonan came in to see your predecessor and an agreement was reached to the effect that the PTH No. 9 running through the Municipality of North Kildonan, would be widened so that there would be two traffic lanes each way. --J:'[ow, some thought was given on the part of the East St. Paul coun cil to having this extended to East St. Paul so t'hat in effect you would have a four-lane traffic road or highway all the way through North Kildonan up to Hodinott Road.

I'm just wondering if this particular item here is doing just that or if it's merely for the improvement of the exist ing two-lane road. That's my question. MR. THOMPSON: Yes. We may have that information in a short while. - MR. ·scmi:ii;Y"ER: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Now the other question is on page 8 with regard to PTH No. 5!ll -- this is on page 8. The item has it that there will be 16 miles of grading, gravelling and structure-- new work -- south of Libau to Gull Lake. Now the ques ;tion: here is that will this work commence south of Libau to Gull Lake or right from the centre -of the Village to Gull Lake?

The Minister is aware that there was some .controversy about this. MR. THOMPSON: I would have the impression that it commences at Libau and proceeds in a southerly direction for 16 miles. You're concerned about the last mile or two immediately south of Libau? - MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, a year ago it was the intention of the department to construct this road from Libau to Gull Lake, that is from 'Libau nortneast to Gull Lake, and then-- I understand there's been a change of thinking here and that the rca d will be construe- . ted not from Libau, not from the Village, the centre of the Village but that Highway 59 will · - swing off just south of Libau, a quarter of a mile or so, and thence to Gull Lake northeasterly.

The question here to put it in short terms is: Will highway 59 run right through the Village of Libau or will it swing .off t.o the northeast just before the Village is reached? MR. THOMPSON: I have n.o informati.on that that location around Libau has been deci ded. The construction will be from immediately south for the distance given, but I'm not sure March 11th, 1960 Page 1493

(Mr. Thom pson, cont'd.) ••••• that that location has been finally deterimined from there north. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman , I had hoped for some confirmation from the Minister . However , I realize he might not be in a position to give me such confirmation . Judging from the

schedule itself, it says south of Libau. I woUld take.it, Mr . Chairman, that the road will be built to go on the south side of Libau . However if the Minister is not in position to ••••. MR. THOMPSON: If I may interrupt, I don't think I could be expected to give an answer to that question . It concerns a road which is not in the program at all . It concerns the area north of the proposed location. The

schedule says, from south of Libau to Gull Lake and I don't think it would be possible to give you what location is contemplated for a road to be built in the future which is not even in the schedule. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairm an, all right I shall leave this particular item . The last question I have is on Page 11, it has to do with the north perin:eter. I would ask the Minister if he has any information as to what date is contempl ated for the construction of the north perimeter road bridge across the Red in the vicinity of Middlechurch? Does he have any such informati on? MR.

THOMPSON: I have no information on when that bridge will be built. It certainly is a structure which is required but there is no information on just when that will be done. MR . SCHREYER: Could the Minister give an estima te, Mr. Chairman, within the department? MR. THOMPSON: I am not prepared to make an estimate on -- I think I referred to that area and mentione d the bridge when I was giving the review of the perimeter a moment ago. Other than that I can give no information. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr .

Chairman , I asked the Mini ster a short time ago what the government plans to do about overpasses for the perimeter route in these trunk highways. I had in mind Portage west, near the Assiniboia Downs , Num ber 6 highway, No. 7 highway and others that he may have information on. MR. THOMPSON: These matters are under consideration but there has been no final decision and I am not able to give any report on that at the present time . MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, I was called to the telephone a moment ago. Is any work proposed on the perimete r route north of Portage Avenue towards No.6 highway? MR.

THOMPSON: It's on the record you will find it there (Interjection)--Yes the -- I mentione d that the survey and design work is practically comple ted. Some preliminary work has been done on the proposed overhead over Rosser Road and the Canadian Pacific main line . I gave a complete statement , which, if you were out, you will find recorded. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman , earlier I was discussing with the Minister, No . 19 highway and he interrupted my conversa tion at that time . He explained to me that it had beEm taken out because of drainage difficulties with the Riding Mountain, with which I am aware .

My . only point is , that surely when it was put in the program in the fall of 1958 , by his predecessor, the drainage problem existed at that time as well. And I think it is just another example of the padding that his predecessor did in those two proposals which he presented to us. On another subject. The Member for St. George was asking with regard to the proposed bridge and control structUre ov'e;' the Fairford River. Now this is sou th of the

section that is being rebuilt from Gypsumville north. Now on that portion of Gypsumv ille north it appears un der our roads to resources, I believe . Now it seems to me that following on our discussion of last night with .regards to Federiu. Government assistance , that they should participate in this particular bridge because it is certainly leading to roads to resources. Now has an approach .been · made to Ottawa with regards to assistance on that structure? The next point is this matter of roads to resources.

Last year, as I recall , these were presented to us by the then-Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, if l remem ber correctly. I don't quite recall if they were presented under the Mines and Resources Department or if .it was under Industry and Comme rce, but I'm certainly I think right in saying that he was the one who gave us those details last year. MR. EVANS: Mr . Chairman , I missed the question that my honourable friend was dis cussing. MR. MOLGAT: Last year the roads to resources, I believe , came under your depart ment. Is that correct? MR. EVANS: I did announce the plan at that time , yes.

Page 1494 March 11th, 1960

MR . MOLGAT: _I notice that this year there are some of these at least included in this particular outline, and my question is this: Are there other roads to resources in the program this year or is this it, as is outlined in this schedule? MR. EVAN8: I am informed, Mr. Chairman, that they are all in this

schedule . My honourable friend will understand that I have lost contact with that program since . But I am in formed now that an of the roads to resources program is now contained in this schedule. MR . MOLGAT: I just wanted to verify that there would be - if we looked at this and went through this that this was the final figure, that there were no others to come from other departments. MR . CHAIRMAN: (

a) Passed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr . Chairman, I believe I had a couple of questions for the Minister on this item which Mr . Chairman, in the agreement with the Federal Government on the Guttormson-perim•3ter route I understand the Federal Government pays 90%. Is that correct? When does that period terminate that the offer is still good? Would he tell us? MR. THOMPSON: Yes they pay 90% of that portion of the highway. I think the formula is I believe as I mentioned yesterday, 90% of -- 10% of the total mileage. The agreement is good for quite a time yet; I think it is good for a year more. MR.

GUTTORMSON: Does that include a two-lane or a four-lane highway on the peri meter route? MR . THOMPSON: I think it's a two-lane. There has been a portion, four, on the. west side . The agreem3Ut is a two-lane road. MR . CHAlllMAN:

(1) Passed.

(2) Passed. Resolution 64, Highways, Aids to Munici palities. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I believe there are some questions left outstanding in the department fromlast night. I don't ask that they be answered now providing that we will get the answer. This one I just asked about the Fairford Bridge , whether the Federal Govern ment had been contacted. I am willing to wait for the answer as well. But there were some others outstanding last night. MR. THOMPSON: We are endeavouring to get some contribution on that bridge . Now were there some other questions. I might have the answers if you care to ask them. MR.

MOLGAT: There are some outstanding on the matter of access roads. I had asked the Minister then if he could tell us which ones had double acce_ss. There were some questions at that time on one of the items (g) (2) which the Minister was to explain the increase for. Those were two of the notes I have outstanding. Items (g) (3) -- (g) (2). Questions were asked last night about the substantial increase in this item and I believe the Minister said that be would be providing the information. Again I don't ask that it be done now, if he hasn't got the details.

As lo11g as we get the information later it's satisfactory to me • • • • • • • • • • • continued on next page. March 11th, 1960 Page 1495

MR. · CHAm.MAN: Resolution 64. MR. MOLGAT: I would just like to have the assurance of the Minister, Mr. Chairman, that we will get the information, that's all. MR. THOMPSON: I think possibly I could have some of the information. I thought I had the information on the access roads which were mentioned. I don •t--one was the question of Warren. Was it not? MR. MOLGAT: Yes, Warren was one of the ...•.• questions as a matter of fact, and I wondered if there were others. That may not be tl:J.e explanation for Warren. I don't know, but it appeared to be.

If two miles or whatever it was is the access road for Warren, it seems MR. THOMPSON: Yes, on Warren, I understand the original highway went through that centre and I believe the commitment was , when the highway was moved around it that the road would be built through by the province. I think that commitment was possibly made by the for mer administration, that the road go through there. And that is not what you would call an ordinary access road.

Now in the Killarney case, as I recall the mileage given includes cer tain contributions to streets to the highway; I think it's $1, 500 a mile or something, there was some contribution in the Killarney case to apportion more than is measured in the actual ex tent of the access road. That is, it includes more, it includes other items than the actual con struction of the access, so that the mileage there shown is higher than the actual length of the access road from the highway fnto the tov.n. I had the items what it did include and I don't seem to have them here now. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, is it the policy of the department then that where a highwa previously went through a centre that the department will be prepared to provide two accesses? · MR. THOMPSON: No, not necessarily. I think the matter would be given consideration in each individual case. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, that is the case apparently in the case of Warren al though I had understood when the member for Brokenhead had asked that there would be only one access .. I suggest then, Mr. Chairman, that there are many other villages in the province which were in the sam e position where the highway previously went through.

In my own con stituency for example the village of McCreary, No. 5 highway previously went through the vil lage. The access has been built now from the south side and it would appear to me in that case that the access on the west side should be provided on the same basis if exceptions are made elsewhere. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 64, $11, 809, 985, passed. Department 12, Municipal Affairs. Appropriation 1, Administration; (

a) Salaries. MR. RJDLEY: Mr. Chairman, at the outset I would like first of all to thank all the civil servants in the Municipal Affairs Department for the co-operation which they have given me since I have been sworn in as their Minister. I've also received very good co-operation from the Union of Municipalities, the urban associations. And I want to add also that I have received very good co-operation from the Opposition members of this House.

Some of them have come to me in regards to things which they could have brought up at the House and that information was certainly well accepted by me and I wish at this time to tender my appreciation for that also. I would just like to go through a short review for the year 1959, what has happened and projected programs of the Department of Municipal Affairs for the year 1960. Statistical in- . formation respecting municipalities of the province for the fiscal year 1958 was tabled for your information and consideration on February 5th, 1960.

Three major changes may be observed in the method of tabulating these statistics. Number one, current assets are presented in some what greater detail than in former years by indicating the main sources through the sub-head ings; (

A) investments; (

B) due from other governments; (B)(1), province; (2) dominion and other niun icipalities; (C) , due from other funds; (

D) due from other sources. Similarly current lia bilities are shown in greater detail through the subdivision of the former heading of "other pay abies" to the sub-headings of "due to other governments". Number one, province; 2, dominion and other municipali ties; B, due to other funds; C, due to other liabilities. Number two, the current assets and current liabilities shown have been compiled from combined balance sheets which incorporate all operating departments of the municipalities, namely, general funds, Page 1496 March 11th, 1960

(Mr. Ridley, cont'd. ) .. B, utilit ies; C, boards or committees. The operating results of the utilities and boards or committees have been included in the statistical report for the first time. A

summary of these data by type of municipal corporations is given on page one of the statisti cal report. Forty-nine municipal corporations have operated departments in addition to the general fund. This figure is composed of (A), rural municipalities, five; suburban municip.llit ies, three; village municipaliti es, six; town municipalities, 29; and (E), city municipalit ies, six; a total of 49. These operating departments involve the supplying of the following services: water and sewers was supplied, 47; parks board, seven; library , six; electri

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-39a
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