Manitoba Hansard — 22 March 1982 (Sitting 18B, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-18b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MAN IT OBA Monday, 22 March, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. CON CURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SU PPLY SUPP LY - NATURAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): We'll call the meeting to order. We're on Natural Reso urces, Page 101, (g ) ( 1) Sala ries-pass; (g )

(2) Other Expenditur es The Mem ber for Emerso n. MR. ALBERT DR I EDGER {E merson): I ju st wanted to make a poi nt. There were some of the members tha t actually were hoping to mak e a few comme nts on it, but un der the cir cums tances. they're not here so MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Lake side. MR. HAR RY ENNS {Lakeside): Mr. Ch airm an, on that item the re is a su bsta ntia l rise from $69,000 to $236,500, perhaps the Min ister could gi ve us some detail as to the rise in those expen di tur es. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honou rable Min ister. HON. AL MACKL ING {St. James): Mr.

Chairman, the funding and staffi ng levels voted in the 1981-82 Esti mates for the Wild Fur Mana gement Program are not sufficient to provide for services hi ghl y valued by trappe rs and consi dered essential by the department; therefore, for the 1982-83 fiscal year. additional funds in the amoun t of $330,200 have been approved for the fol lowing activitie s: In clu ded in 1981-82 Estim ates are 3.13 staff man years for Tra plin e Officer Services, however. as a result of red uctions made for the 1981- 82 Est im ates, funding does not exis t for the salary or operat ing costs of the Trap lin e Offic ers.

In effect. si nce 1961 the Trap line Officer Service is currently mai ntained in ten northern com mun it ies. Wit hdrawal of the service would occasion a marked negative reac tion by northern resident s. With the province's com mitment to the in troduction of hum ane trapping sys tems and a comple te reorganiz ation of the Regis tered Trap lin e system. the Trap lin e Offic ers Service is to be restored to its or igi nal level of 14 officers. This requ ires an additional 3.39 staff man years beyond the ir 3.13 in the ap proved 1981-82 staffing component for Appropriation 12-9 Wildl ife.

Funding ha s been appr oved also to enable restora tion of Trapper Educa tion Services and the develop ment and pro motion of alternate hu mane trappi ng methods. This will req ui re one staff man year for a term of one year at the Resour ce Ext ension Officer 111 level - and then the note I have is antici pated expendi tures on the 1982-83 Wild Fur Agre ement will be cost sha reable on a 50-50 basis un der a five-year agree ment presently bei ng negotia ted with the Federal Gove rnment. MR. ENNS : So there will be 50 percent recovera ble mon ies from the Federal progr am? 704 MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr.

Ch airman. MR. ENNS: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Radisson. MR. GERARD LECUYER {Ra disson): Yes, Mr. Min is ter, I won der if you would gi ve us some explana ti on as to wha t is the Grant Assistance for? MR. MACKL ING: That, Mr. Chairman, I'd earlier indi cated was to the Man itoba Reg istered Trappers' Asso cia tion. It's a funding grant to assist them in the work of the associa tion. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(g)(3)-p ass; 9.( h). The Ho no urable Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Ch airman.

I appr eciate tha t my col league. the Honour able Memb er for Arth ur, has already spoken to this matter, but I would lik e to make some additional comm ents. Again. to the degree tha t we have successful dam age control programs in pla ce, in my esti mation, will be concur rent with the kind of acceptance on the part of the agricu ltur al farm communi ty in the sup port of wildl ife. I kn ow tha t the fig ures will sho w or ind icate tha t the overa ll loss by agriculture, as a result of crop depredation, is not extremely high.

It would certa inl y lead envir on mentalis t friends of mine lik e the Hono urable Memb er for lnk ster to say th at's an acceptable cost. I think, Mr. Ch airman. you may have the fig ures, or I may have forgotten the fig ures. the overa ll cost is not mu ch more than 1 percent or 1.5 percent of agricultural losses as a result of wildlif e. prin ci pally waterfowl depredation. The dif ficu lty tho ugh, Mr.

Ch airman, is that tha t 1 percent is not generally dis tribut ed across the agricult ural comm uni ty; tha t 1 percent can mean very su bstantial 50 percent, 60 percent. 80 percent loss to one ind ivid ual farmer or group of farmers. I think. Mr. Chairman, you were told this afternoon of indi vidual farmers th at, are at this mom ent, feeding herds of up to 100 to 200 deer. I real ly ask of many of my so-ca lled envir on mentalis t friends how many of them would be prepared to lay out tha t kind of sup port.

You know, it's easy to speak of env ir onmen tal ists and na tural ist desires when you're safely pre clu ded from having to put out in a very real way, and moreso. there are. of course, specific areas tha t the depar tment encourages, such as, the Oak Hammond area which is I think one of the singu lar suc cess sto ries of man's managemen t of a waterfowl nest ing and stag in g area, but it has brou ght with it some pro blems to adjacent grain prod ucers; and to the extent that reaso nable dama ge agreements and com pensation moni es are pai d, to tha t extent the se programs can con tinue to be successf ul.

I regret tha t the Federal Govern ment has seen fit not to enter in to a longe r-term agreement. I think the fact tha t this agreement has to be negotia ted every year from a first position is regrettable. I think resour ce mana gers wit hin the department ought to be able to

Monday, 22 March, 1982 plan lon ger than one year in this ins tance and that the kind of dol lars should be avai lable to make sure tha t an unh ealthy ant agonism is not allo wed to be buil t up as a result of fail ure of this program. So. Mr. Minis ter, I leave it at that point. I encourage you to co ntinu e to press Ottawa for a lo nger term agreement and for a more generous agreement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for ln kster. MR . DON SCOTT (l nkster): Mr.

Chairman, I would li ke to jus t take the former speaker, Me mber for Lake side, up on a couple of his com ments and a couple of his al most allega tions about his naturalist friends. I am speaking to this simp ly because I concur with many of the Mem ber for Lakeside 's concerns, tha t the re is a relatively few numb er of farmers who the damage is perpetrated upon thr ough our water fowl. I think that is the very reason wild li fe mana gement errors were started and declared in to legislation a few years ago, tha t th ey've bought such thi ngs as lur e crops around them.

The idea of the lu re crops was to try and cut down on the comp ens ation payments that had to go to the farmers in the area, to try and get the lands imm edia tely surr ounding the wash areas. the nesting areas and the stag ing area, so that the geese when the y're flyi ng out th ey're more lik ely to land on Crown land, whi ch the govern ment by the way pays farmers to plant for us, so the water fowl will then be preying upon the lands that the governme nt owns and has paid to have seeded. So they are not going beyond that di stance.

Now un fortuna tely it's not lik e ani mals that are limi ted to the dis tance they can jump throu gh fences and tha t sort of thing, so you can not fence in geese and du cks and other mig rat ing water fowl. But I would lik e to say tha t in this general area we should be looking beyond ju st water fowl. We should be lo oking in to com pensa tion for farmers for depre dation on some of their crops, for elk, for deer and also for some of the farmers with depredation if it can be proven - and in very few cases is it proven defi ni tively at all - on the predation of any liv estock via coyote or wolf.

So I think we should be looking upon some sort of com pensation arrang ements, trying to extend them and they should be costed more lik e on an annu al basis. But there are also some obl iga tions on a farm com muni ty, Mr. Chairman, and that is to plant crops or if th ey're located near an area, lik e right now around the Spruce Woods area, some of the farmers are starting to move in to corn.

Well, corn to elk is lik e candy to kids and if you put that in right next to the fields or plant your fie lds with a very lu crative crop for the wildli fe with in tha t park, then you are going to be that mu ch more apt to have high losses.

We should be looking towards some joint efforts. if you wish, or some co-operat ion and some public education back and forth between the Crown and the landowne rs adjacent to the se various - be the y parks, be the y wildl ife management areas or refuges - and we should be looking most seriously at trying to mitiga te the da mages as mu ch as possi ble caused by the wild li fe. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Emerson. 705 MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. ju st a few point s.

I get a li ttle nervous when the Memb er for ln kster starts making reference to the fact that the farmin g com muni ty has certai n obli gati ons . The farming co mmun ity kno ws what their obli ga tions are in terms of wildl ife and du cks, etc. I'd lik e to illus trate a few examples. The Memb er for ln kster was stressi ng that the farm com mun ity had certain respo nsibili tie s. The farm communi ty fully well kn ows their responsibil it ies. The re's a certai n abuse tha t goes on the re from time to time. It 's not that many years ago we had a wet fall, we had a bun ch of barley layi ng on the fields.

The hun ting season happened to roll along and du cks and chic kens were congreg ati ng on the se fie lds. The fields were posted, the hunt ers came and they ju st flocked all over tho se swamps and wha t have you. The y dug pit s without permi ssion, etc. These kin d of thi ngs. The farmers take many of these thing s in the ir stride and fully accept the respon sibil ity that you'll have a certa in amoun t of wildlif e. fowl, waterfo wl, anything lik e tha t that is going to depradate to some degree the crops that they have. I think they accept that to some degree.

One thing tha t I take exception to is the Memb er for ln kster, without having been inv olved with the farm com mun ity, makes all kin ds of recommend ations ... MR. SCOTT: I have been in volved in the farm com munit y. I've worked on farms. I've come in the first genera tion off the farm. and to have any kind of in di cation tha t this member here can say tha t I have no thing to do with farms and no in terest toward them. I think he is totally out of order. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Emerso n. MR. DRIED GER: If I have someho w offended the Mem ber for ln kster, he can take that with a grain of salt.

At the present time he's not making his living off the farm and if it irritates him the way I mak e my statement, th at's his prerogative. -(I nterjection)- I am, yes, my friend. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. Would the Memb er for Emerson continue please. we're having dif ficult y tap ing for Hans ard. The Mem ber for Emerson. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Ch airman. To the Min ister, I would lik e to reco mmend to some degree tha t the item we're on is Man itoba Waterfowl Damage agreements. I'd lik e to encourage the Min ister and his staff to possib ly look in the future towards expansion of some of these progra ms.

For exa mple, many of the farmers have pot ho les, ponds, wetland areas. this type of thing, whi ch are natural breeding grounds for du cks, waterfowl of any nat ure and the re's certa in cr iticism and pressure tha t comes on these farm ers that the y should not neces saril y drain these areas. tha t they should leave them for that purpose of waterfowl and I agree. But the thing is when we talk of taxa tion. for exam ple, that a farmer has so and so many acres, he gets taxed on the basis of the assessment on the land and he should be -(In terjection)- Mr. Chairman, I am

Monday, 22 March, 1982 add ressing the Chair and the Min ister. If the Member for lnk ster wants to get in to a perso nal debate, I'll certainl y do that as wel l. But I think, Mr . Min ister, wha t I' m su ggesting MR. CHAIR MAN: Order. The Memb er for lnk ster has had hi s say. I would hop e you would conta in your remarks un til he's done. MR.

DR I EDGER: Wha t I'm trying to su btly sug gest to the Min ister is tha t maybe in his deli berations with hi s staff for the futur e to gi ve some conside ration for some of these farmers that are si ncerely retainin g, let's say, the wetlands area, the sloughs, the ponds, without drain ing all this area for waterfowl and tha t possibly in the futur e somewhere along the lin e, some kind of a co mpensa tion, a tax conce ssion, wha tever the case may be, could be worked out so tha t they would cont inu e to do this.

At the rate of taxa tion with the tight expense situa tion that the farmers are runnin g in to, you canno t blame the farm co mmun ity when the y try and drain every acre tha t they can to try to mak e it productive. I'm jus t su gges ting tha t these are thi ngs I kn ow will not happen overnigh t. But some of these thi ngs should be possibly conside red in the future to enhan ce the fact that we can maybe retain certain areas for waterfowl breeding.

If it's not bei ng done, if th ere's not going to be any com pensa tion, the farmers lik e anybody else. they are busi ness people, they will assess it and if they can not see any value in leaving it in wetlands the y'll try and drain it and make it produc tive. I'm ju st thr owi ng tha t out as a sugge sti on, Mr . Chairman, so I hope the Minis ter keeps that in mind. MR. MACKLING: Mr .

Chairman, this afternoon I think at some length, we went in to the que sti on of philo sophy of protect ion of our natu ral resou rces in cl udin g protection of wildli fe hab itat and wetland, and I ind icated then and the honour able member was here, my concern that in order to provide this in cen tive to land owner s to conti nu e in some cases, but in other cases to restore land to wildli fe hab itat and to wetland, there has to be some in centive.

I sympa th ized with the position tha t many farm folk find thems elves in wh ere th ey're har d pressed to pay for their farming opera tions to try to devel op their land to the maximum, and if tha t means encroach ing on what otherwise would be marginal land, that otherwise would be wetland or forested wildl ife hab itat, often that happens and that is a pity. Now, in respect to the item un der consi deration of the Canada-Manitoba Waterfowl Damage Agreements, this is a recu rri ng cost item; it's nothing new; it's a dama ge prevention agr eement sh ared 50-50 with Ottawa. It 's a good program.

The money voted last year was entir ely used for co mpens ation for crops dama ged by waterfowl. It in clude s costs for casual wages and for miscellaneous equipment and for lur e crop pur chases. Wha t lur e crops in volve is planti ng of a crop designed to encour age the wil dfowl and water fowl to settle on a crop plant ed specifically to attract them and th erefore to entice the waterfowl away from the regular fare that would otherwise be available by consu ming im portant cereal grain producti on. It's a sh ort-term agr eement because the Federal 706 Government ins ists on it bei ng a one-year agreement.

The previous admin istration and I'm sur e the admin is tration before, sought to get longer -term agreements and will con tinue to do so, but so far we have been un able to convi nce the Federal Go vernment to go beyond a year-to-year agreement. IN TRO DUCTION OF GU ESTS MR. CHAIRMAN: I wonde r if the members would join me in welc oming these Boy Scouts from St. Andr ews 66th Winnip eg Division, who are 16 boys and 3 lead ers and they're un der the char ge of Jim Ray. Join me in welc oming them. The Memb er for Lake side. MR. ENN S: Mr.

Chairman. one final que stion on this appr opriation: does the department have any final figur es in for the actual moni es paid out to farmers for crop losses in this past year? I appr eciate tha t some of these claims are not necessarily concluded at this ti me, but do we have a good estima te as to wha t it costs un der thi s program? In other words, was the $600,000 full y expended? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I'm gi ven to und er stand that the expen dit ur es for '81-82 Dam age Prev ention Program will total about 300, and $396,000 for dama ge compensa tion. MR.

ENNS: $300,000 for damage com pensa tion and some $300,000 for prevention. Thank you, Mr . Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 9.(h) -pass. Resolution No. 109. BE IT RE SOL VED THAT th ere be gr ant ed to Her Ma jesty a sum not exceeding $3,638,000 for Natu ral Resou rces for Wildl ife, for the year ending the 31st of March, 1983-pass. We now go on to Su rveys and Map ping. MR . MACKLI NG: Mr . Chairman, before you read the Resol ution I'd lik e to in troduce you to Alan Rober ts, the Di rector of this division. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Provision of a central provin cial service in legal and control su rveys, topog raphic and geogr aphic mapping, remote sensing, and the main tenance of a provincial air pho to libr ary and operation of a central map office. (a)(

I) Salaries. The Memb er for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, at the outset of the con si deration of the se Estima tes I ind icated through you, Mr . Chairman. to the Min ister tha t there were two partic ular areas, not necessarily in terms of scale or size of mon ies that I'd hop ed to see some in crease in; one bei ng in the im portant area of forestry, in the forestry division, some en hancement of our nu rsery progr am, some enh ancement of our reforestation progr am.

While this division of the depar tment is not of major consequence to the overall Estima tes before us, it's a department tha t has with it certa in responsibil ities tha t in my judg ment requir es some additional atten tion and some additional fun ds.

Monday, 22 March, 1982 The very im portant mai ntenance of our su rveys throughout the province are really begi nning to show, I supp ose, some negl ige nce if you lik e, and you can certainly charge that to past admin istra tions in cl ud ing the one that I represented; but more imp ortant, perhaps, sho w the wear and tear of in tensive land use, development tak ing place, of markers bei ng destroyed. Th e consequ ence of that has been tha t those who ha ve experienced the requir ements or the needs to have sur vey work done can very often face wil dl y fluctua ting costs.

I mu st adm it, someti mes you learn ju st beca use of per sonal experien ce. I fou nd it dif fi cult to bel ieve su rveyor estima tes ranging from $600 to $3,000, $4,000 and $5,000 to su rvey a particular lot out in the coun try and it was onl y in in vestigating the matter fur ther tha t one fou nd out that the reason bei ng is the deteriora tion of our su rvey markers throughout the province. It has been my hope, Mr. Chairman, that some beef ing up of this program could be entertain ed dur in g the co ming year.

Ther e is, I bel ieve, some joint responsi bil ity of match ing tha t with some additional funds in the Attorney -Gener al's Department, their legal Land Titles Office, etc.

I don't know precisely the Esti mate that it follows in th ere but I can recall tha t di scuss io ns were under way with the then Attorney-G eneral to see whether or not we could n't joi ntly, in this division and in the AG's Estima tes, come up with some additional do llar s tha t could embark this branch in to, at least, a progr am, a 5 or 10-year program of renewal, renova tion if you lik e, of the sur veying requir ements of this provinc e. So, Mr . Chairman, I ind icate this because the Esti mates certainl y don't ind icate anything other than a very stand-pat bud get.

I draw this to the Minis ter's attention in the hope tha t it has also been drawn to his attention that perhaps some sup pleme ntary efforts can be applied in this particular area. Thank you, Mr. Ch air man. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I didn' t gi ve an intr oduc tory statement to any one of the se sect ions, preferring to allow the memb ers to make their obser vat ions fi rst.

Bu t, let me ind icate tha t although this is not a high -profi le, glamourous area of gov ernme nt, it is no netheless very imp ortant because it does deal with the careful recordin g of vital statistics that are the base for many operations, not only of this depart ment, but other sections of governme nt.

Let me ind icate what this department does among other thi ngs is provide stu die s, make recommenda tions and legal descriptions for conveyances, leases and permit s of Crown lands, mi nes and mine rals; pre pares the Minis ter's orders and consents un der the Muni ci pal Act; cond ucts toponymic research for the appr oval of 500 or more geograph ical name s; pro vide s toponymic data for qualit y control of map pro du cts; main tains and up dates name -card fi les and name -location maps; com pile s the ann ual di rectory of Man itoba Geogr aphic al name s - and I could go on and on in respect to tha t.

Als o under this department if we're looking at the gl obal aspect of this section, Mr. Chairman, are the extensive du ties in respect to su rvey in this provinc e. The honour able memb er has touched on ju st a por tion of the activities tha t this depar tment is in volved 707 in. All plans of su rvey in Crown land are bei ng pro cessed as received.

Sur vey in formation is su ppl ied on a daily basis to request ing persons; 39 su rveys for requesting departments; 11 su rveys to mai ntain the su rvey fabric; 23 contr act su rveys und er our backlo g progr am; cottage-lot plans are bei ng processed; sur veys un der the No rthern Flood Agreement and In dian Reserve Land Exchange Programs in hand.

As part of the program is the establishm ent of retracement su rveys, the retracement of the original sections of quar ter-section corners establishe d under the autho rity of the Govern ment of Canada prior to the transfer of resou rces in 1930 and su bsequently un der the Sur veys Act is bei ng ini tia ted during the '81-82 fiscal year. This action is requir ed to offset conti nuing deterioration of the Provin cial Land Sur vey System whi ch is causing an in ordina te cost and in convenience to both the priv ate and pub lic sectors. The total cost of this program is esti mated at $7.5 mi llion over 20 years.

However, opti mistically pre dicted new tech nol ogy cou ld reduce the program length and cost. Funding in the amoun t of $50,000 was provided in the '81-82 Esti mates for the ini tiation of this program. It is anti ci pated tha t approxi mately six town ship outli nes will be retraced during the cur rent fiscal year with data for perti nent

section corner monu ment s recorded in the appropria te govern ment records. For fiscal year '82-83 addition al operating funds of 50,000 have been reques ted for this progr am. In respect to the Contr ol Su rveys and Map s Sec tion, this

section provides techn ical and ad min istra tive su pport to the Cana da-M anit oba Flood Reduc tion Map ping Program. It provides a consu ltative service to all gover nm ent pla nts on control su rveys in mapp ing matters; provides an assessment of the qu al ity of existi ng positional in formation and up grade where requir ed; com plete an in ventory of exis ting positional inf ormation in Man itoba and make same readil y ava il able to all users; develop a joint Federal Provincial program with respect to extending su rvey control in Southern Man itoba.

I cou ld go on about the Secondary Int egration Program deal in g with su rveys.

In respect to Geograph ical Mapping, th ere is exten sive mapping und ertaken by this department in respect to ind ividual plans from data sup plie d by land su rvey ors; an atlas of Manit oba; big -game regul ation maps; flight in formation maps; road and recreation maps; new forest tower maps; su rvey control maps; wild rice lease area mosaic maps of whi ch I'd lik e to have a copy; reprin t key-to-W inn ipeg map; new fish ing area maps, tha t's the comm ercial fishe ries;- new MTS mobil e com muni cations map; maps of provi ncial electoral boun darie s which the honour able members are al ways in terested in; a compe ndium of provincial maps; an up date of air -pho to li brary with appr oxi mately 25,000 print s, and so on; very extensive activity in mapping and aerial pho tography, remote sensing and, I think I'd leave the gener al ity of my rema rks there, Mr .

Chairman, a very extensive un derlyi ng ser vice work in respect to the basic requir ements of con firming land particu lars both by maps and by su rvey to facil itate government and priv ate use. MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, dur ing the past several years the su rveyors in the province, I am now speak ing about tho se who are not di rectly engage d by

Monday, 22 March, 1982 govern ment, have from time to time petiti one d the government for work. Partially I supp ose the lack of econ omi c activity gener ally in the provi nce has brou ght about a reduced workload, and I'm told by the association that they have expressed concern to the then gov ernment about the nu mber of su rveyors who found it possib le to con tinue their profession in this provi nce. Can the Min ister ind icate to what extent the govern ment is takin g their plight in to consi dera tion in any of the additional sur vey work tha t the Min ister ju st mentioned?

Does the government in tend to con tinue to use where poss ib le, I kn ow it is n't alw ays possi ble, to go out to tender for su rvey requir ements? MR. MACKLI NG: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm sur e that from time to time it is necessary because of su rges in workload to provide for su rveys bei ng done by private land su rveyors and apparently tha t has been a con tinuing go vern ment practice. I think one has to weigh that carefully agai nst hir ing fulltime govern ment sur veyors because th ere is a cost-benefit ratio that you have to watch carefully.

But, I un derstand that pro vide d in the cu rrent Estim ates is for some $150,000 worth of expen di tu res on su rveys tha t will be carried out by private su rveyors with in Man itoba. MR. ENNS: Can the Min ister gi ve me any com parison figur es as to how tha t $150,000 compar es to, say your prior figur e. MR. MACKLING : It's approxima tely the same, appar ently, Mr . Chairman. MR. ENNS : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DRIE DGER : Thank you, Mr. Chai rman, I have series of que stions and com ments on this department that I'd lik e to bring to the attention of the Min ister.

Fi rst, I' d lik e to say he mi ght refer to this area of Su rveys and Mapping as unglamour ous, possi bly it is, but I think it is also very necessary and crucial. I'd li ke to addr ess some remarks under the portion tha t app li es to The Muni cip al Act, wh ere the su rvey requir e ments at the present time are creating certai n prob lems, even at the tim e when I happ ened to be Reeve of the R.M. of Hano ver at that time we were running in to certa in problems.

Sin ce that time though I' ve had the occas ion to be in volved in various problems from time to time, the fact that go vernment requir ements terms of legal su rvey plans have created many problems for many indi vidu als from tim e to time. I'd lik e to cite a few exam ples jus t to il lus trate the problem tha t has come about especially in the southe ast area. Some of the se people sti ll have deeds; they don' t have titles. No w the requir ements on The Farm Credit Corpor a tion Act are that you have to have a title, not a deed.

Now on the appli cation of some of these cases wher e an indi vidual has made appl ica tion to change his deed to a title one of the requir ements, depending on loca tion and depen ding on how much land is cut up and how man y parcels ther e are, is tha t a title has to be ther e and in makin g appl ica tion for that, this is the requir ement, the cost factor is some thing tha t jus t boggles on e's min d. I have to expr ess concern that there is not more money available un der this

section in terms of up dati ng the su rvey requir ements across the provi nce, especially in some of the more remote areas.

I would lik e to cite the example where an in di vidual tryi ng to change a deed to a title to qualif y for a Farm Credit Corp orat ion loan, his estim ated cost was $6,000 ju st for the legal su rvey to change tha t and Land Tit les insi sted at tha t time that he ha d to have it su rveyed No w, wha t ha ppens is, if you are fort una te enough to be in an area where somebody has su rveyed at a certain tim e and had borne the cost, or maybe a mun icipal ity has su rveyed or hig hways have sur veyed, someb ody has su rveyed and establis hed cer tain poles.

If you ha ppen to be close to that, then fine; the cost is a fract ion of it. But if you hap pen to be in an area wher e this has not taken place and you sell a parcel of land, wha tever the case may be, then the requir ements are you have to file a legal su rvey plan. Then, if you go and ask for an esti mate from the su rvey crews, you'r e looking at some exorbitant pri ces. In some cases actually the cost of the su rvey has been high er than the value of the property sold. I think it is a very im portant

section that we're looking at here. I think the province, the government, has a respon sibi li ty in terms of making su rvey poles availa ble at certai n areas. I kn ow it's a very costly, long -range type of thing. Tha t's why I'm concerned tha t the Min ister does not have more mon ies avai lable in this

section here. It's a drama tic problem that's going to su rface more and mor e as we in the more in hab ited areas requir e to get a building permit, this kind of thing, that you have to have a legal su rvey plan etc., etc. We're running in to major problems because you can not use - well I su ppose we have to use the same rule - but it is not fair to apply the same rule to all the se places, because in some cases it's a very, very costly type of project for certa in ind ivid ua ls tha t can no t bear that type of cost. Lik e I say, I regret the part that there's not more mon ies being expended here.

I'm sur e that Mr. Rob erts, the gentleman that's in char ge of this sec tion, mu st be pulling out hi s hair from time to ti me.

It certainly changed col our I see and it's probably for a reason. -(Int erjection)- Well, we'll see wha t happ ens in the next four years, you kn ow why the amount of moni es that are being reque sted here; it will not necessarily change that much. 708 I wo uld ask the Min ister to use a certai n amoun t of rationa le in this respect and maybe with the Land Tit les Reg istra tion Office, tha t the y use a certa in amoun t of di scretion in some of these cases because there are har dship cases tha t are co ming up from time to time. MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr.

Chairman, it's certa in ly refreshing to hear the honour able member , fi rst of all tak ing a bit of a swip e at the legal profession, and I'm not sensitiv e about that, and about tho se priva te sur veyors in the provi nce who, poor fellows, are tryi ng to mak e an hone st living. I'm not at all defensive about the lawyers. You see, what the honour able memb er is tal kin g about is tha t in some parts of the provi nce there is land tha t's sti ll un der wha t is cal led the old system and you have a deed, you don' t have a Torrens title. Anyone that's fortuna te enough or un fortuna te

Monday, 22 March, 1982 enough to have tha t land. and I gue ss he's fortunate to be able to own land these days, if they ha d tha t land in it's old system. he has his cho ice. He continu es to ha ve it and we maintain a registry system in this prov in ce at consi derable expense so that people tha t have ol d-system title can conti nu e to retain it. but if they want to convert it to new system it does cost money. It costs them some legal expense because in variably they have to go to a lawyer to prove the chai n of title, and where su rvey is requir ed. yes then they have to foot the bill for sur vey costs.

No w. I think the honour able member is sug gesting that the tax payers should pick up the costs of r'rovid in g su rveys at cost to people who own land that's un der the old system. That may be a very attractive propo sition. but I ju st wonder if that would find favo ur with the gen eral taxpayers of the Province of Mani toba. I can tell you that any priv ate hom eowner anywhere in this city is faced with a bill for no w for $15 0 or someth ing lik e that tor a su rvey of a small lot in the city. It migh t only a 25 or 30-foot by 90-foot lot in the city.

There's no dif ficu lty finding the su rvey markers in the city, but it costs $1 25. So. when the Honour able member -(I nterjection )- or $1 50. So when the Hon ou rable member pulls my hair or trie s to pull Mr. Rober ts hair on the plight of the in dividual farmer in respect to the costs of su rvey when land is being brought un der The Real Proper ty Act. he has my sympathy but I do not weep profusely. -(Inter jection)- So rry, I'm missi ng some of the humour . Bu t, Mr. Chairman. we do facil itate the transfer of property from the old system to the Torren System.

We don't recover our costs I'm sur e in the Land Titles Office operation tha t doesn't come und er this depar t ment. so I think we are subsidizing the in dividual landowner when we transfer that pro perty. I might add, Mr. Chairman, that when a farmer or a landowner gets Torrens title as agains t an ol d-system title. he ha s a much more marketable security. I'm sur e he recov ers the costs of his expense in getting Torr ens title imm edia tely tha t he ha s it because if he went to sell it. he'd be able to recover his costs. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you. Mr.

Chairman, the point I'd lik e to ill ustrate here is the Min ister is sayi ng it costs somebody in the cit y $15 0 to have his lot sur veyed. The value of the lot migh t be $30 or $40 or $20 or $1 .000 or wha tever the case may be. I'm tal king of cases wh ere a qu arter might be worth $6.000 or $7,000 and it's su pposed to cost that amoun t of money to have it sur veyed, so the rela tionship is not qu ite the same.

I migh t su ggest though to the Minis ter possi bly, that in all fairne ss because I don't think it is fair to have some of these people bear the heavy costs of some of these su rveys that are requi red to change some of these thi ngs for their. you kn ow. if they want to bor row money or sell etc. Why could not a level be estab li shed up to a certain point where th ere's certa in com pensati on made after tha t. I don't think the Min ister would agree that it is fair to have these people bear the total cost in some of these cases. It is a real hard ship case.

I' ll tel l you someth ing ju st to ill ustrate a fact. when there's a 65-year-old gentleman out there who 's been 709 doing noth ing but wor kin g hard all his li fe tryi ng to eke out a living. and finally he's to the point whe re he's trying to pass on his 16 0 acres or li ttle holdings down to his family somewhere along the lin e. before he can do that. all of a sud den he's strapped with this. He hasn' t got a Torrens title and he's trapped wit h the fact tha t he's got to have a legal su rvey done in order to be able to transfer. I think that is un realistic.

That's why I'm asking the Minis ter to use a commo n-sense appr oach in these thing s and it happ ens. Yes. it does happen. If the Mini ster sha kes his head, he says no. I' ll gi ve him examples on thi s. -(I nterjecti on)- MR. CHAIRM AN: Order. MR. DRIEDGER: We cou ld have a wild open debate here on this thing . I want to draw to the Min ister's attention. ther e are cases lik e tha t righ t no w. If he wants examp les. I can forward tho se ex ample s of thing s that have happened that way. So it is not ju st because of borro wing , it is also in terms of cons tant poverty to your family if you want to.

I would caution; this is a very im portant

section and I'm sur e the muni c ipal people and the Mini ster of Muni cipal Affairs is sitti ng right here and he should be very active in promo ting additional mon ies to be expended for this im provi ng or upgr ading of this su rvey plan. I want to con tinue a li ttle further, Mr. Chairman, in regards to the su rveys when the previous admin istra tion was se llin g Crown lands to indi vid uals. Now, mi ght I ask the qu estion. were legal su rveys requi red in the terms of transfer from the Crown to the indi vid uals, except for buying Crown lands? MR. MACKLING: Yes. Mr .

Chairman. and the appli cant paid for the su rvey and so it should be. MR. DRIE DGER: Ok ay, then I have a fur the r que s tion. In all cases. did the appl icant have to pay for the legal su rvey plan? MR. MACKLING: Yes. Mr. Ch air man. if the su rvey was req uir ed. he did have to pay for the cost of the su rvey. MR. DRIEDGER: Was a su rvey requi red in all cases where there was a transfer? MR. MACKLING: Well, Mr. Chairman. if the land has been subdivid ed and th ere's a qu arter

section or half

section or

section descrip tion, no additional su rvey would be requir ed, not ordin ari ly. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr . Chairman, if it was not a total quar ter, let's say over a period of time there were 5, 1 O acres taken out as happe ned in the LGD where they put a certa in amount of land aside for a nu isance ground, etc .. and the balance of it was bei ng sold as Crown land to an indi vidual. is a legal su rvey requir ed and who paid for that? MR. MACKLING: Well. Mr. Chairman, I'm sur e tha t you wouldn't want the taxpayers of Man itoba to pay for the legal su rvey costs of a priv ate in dividu al wh o's buying land.

Monday, 22 March, 1982 MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Ch airman, if that is the case, we're going to have some in teresting ti mes in the future, because I can work on some of th ese examp les where the re has been no legal sur vey req uir ed; in some cases it was a stra ight transfer.

Ag ain, when an indi vid ual transfers to anothe r in the case of a sale, a legal sur vey ha s been req ui red, so that is someth ing that I jus t want to illus trate to the Min ister tha t will be coming up in the future and I certainly want to pursue that, but I want to, at that stage aga in, come up with examples to the Min ister so I can back up exactly what I'm sayi ng. MR. MACK LING: Well, Mr. Cha irman, if the previous adminis tration did thi ngs dif ferent ways, I'm not cer tain of tha t.

I would assume that govern ment would not want to have passed on to the tax payers of Mani toba generally, the additio nal costs that are attributa ble to one indi vidu al or one private indi vidual obta in in g Crown land. MR. DRIEDGER: I ha ve a li ttle problem with the atti tude of the Min ister in regards to this because whe re you have a defi ni tely un fair situation developing, not ju st necessarily with Crown land s, but with other cases, the Min ister is saying, wel l, tough luck. You pay your sh ot. This happens to be the ballgame.

And this is wha t I was trying to cauti on the Min ister about before. I ho pe he does not use tha t appr oach. I hope he uses dis cretion in some of these cases and I know the Minis ter has the rig ht, together with the Attorney Gene ral's department, to sort of use a discretiona ry approac h with Land Tit les in terms of how you indi cate to them, how the Land Titles people should regis ter, whethe r the y have to demand a legal sur vey for all transactions or not. I want to have that on the record and I'd like to have the Min ister's position on that. MR . MACKL ING: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised by Mr.

Roberts tha t in most cases, at least, The Real Property Act would req ui re a sur vey to be made before the transfer would be accepted for reg istration. MR. DRIEDGER: Tha t is the problem, exactly, Mr. Cha irman, and to the Min ister, in most cases, obviously not all cases, which leaves a grey area and tha t is the one I'm con cerned about where you have a har dsh ip case developing. You kn ow, is it mandatory? And I think the Min ister ju st indi cated there was a grey area. In most cases, he in dicated these were the rules.

If it is not going to be a standard rule all the time, then I would say, use dis cretion. If it is a standard rule, then I caution the Minis ter and say, li sten, let's try and get this thing backed off a li ttle bit somewhe re along the line because it's creating a lot of problems and the Minis ter will become aware of these and I will br in g up the cases tha t I am aware of. I'm sure man y people around here in the rural area have run in to this situa tion. I'm certain tha t the Min ister of Muni cip al Affairs mu st have run in to the se cases from time to time.

At least if he's mee ting with the people tha t have con cerns, I'm sure he's run in to tha t and I would like to think tha t the Minis ter of Muni cip al Affairs should be here pounding the table saying, "We have to have more money, we should do the se thing s." If he does 710 not, he is not accep ting his responsibilit y. But we'll deal with his Esti mates later. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Ch airman, I' ve tried to ind icate to the honou rable member that where a legal descrip tion, where it's a clear parcel of land tha t is not irregu lar in shap e, has no exceptional with drawals from it, the legal description th erefore is one that is relatively sim ple; tha t is, it's eithe r a qua rter section, half sec tion, or one-hal f of a qua rter section, and so on.

The re's no problem in respect to reg istrat ion of such document s and transfer, but where the hono urable member refers to five acres being taken out for a garbage di sposal site and it's in leaps-and-b ounds description, or wha tever, then certainly a survey may be req u ired by the Land Title s Office acting un der the autho rity of The Real Property Act and tha t is only proper because the taxpa yers of Manit oba gua rantee the title unde r this system. If we gu arantee the title, then we had better be right in the description. MR.

CHAIRM AN: I'd like to caution the memb ers our gi rl, Cyn thia, is having problems record ing for Hans ard, so I think we owe her the cour tesy of al lowi ng her to do her own job. So try and keep your com ments down. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I hope that doesn' t refer to me, keeping my commen ts down. I get a li ttle agit ated onc e in a while, but MR. CHAIRMAN: As long as there is only one person agit ated at a time, it's okay. MR. DRIEDGER: Thank you very much. I have a further qu estion to the Min ister then, Mr. Ch airman.

Does the govern ment have crews that go out and establ ish survey markers, every township, every six th townsh ip, wh atever the case may be? Do we have crews that are in the field doing this? If so, I'd lik e to kn ow is tha t the area we're looking at un der (b) , Legal Sur veys, is that how much money we expend with crews to go out and do the legal surveys? MR. MAC KLING: Yes, that's right. MR. DRIEDGER: Tha t to me, Mr.

Ch airman, and to the Min ister, does not seem lik e an awful lot of mone y when you consi der that certain indi vid uals have to pay indi vidually, $6,000 for one parcel for the government to expend less than $446,000 for salaries for that kind of work seems minu te. An yway, I think I' ve reg istered the point and con cern and, I'm sure some of the other members want to do the same thing.

Just to prove to the Minis ter that I'm not totally negative all the time, I would lik e to ind icate to him that I ha d the opportu nit y to visit the mappin g department the other day and was very pleased with wha t I saw there, wha t is available - (I nterject ion)- No, but I'm certain ly looking at buy ing some of those thi ngs. But I would encourage the Minis ter to maybe put out an inf orma tion pamph let about the availabi lit y of maps to farmers, real-estate people, hu nters, etc. I think the work has been done. The maps are ava ila ble and many people don't really know th at.

I had an eyeopener when I was in tha t

Monday, 22 March, 1982 departm ent and I would encour age possib ly the Min ister through their very capable government inf orma tion services and otherwise to maybe make this inf ormation avai lable that the maps, topogr aphic maps, aerial maps. There's a lot of material available th ere at a mini mal cost I think, at a fair cost, and I think man y people would be prepared to take advantage of that. I ju st want to say tha t I think that department is doing a good job. The map s seem to be relatively cu rrent and if people kn ew this I think more people would be tak ing advantage of that.

I think this stuff is ava il able. You can go in and tell them exactly which area that you'r e concerned about and they'll pull out the maps and sho w you this material and I think it's tremendous. I think it's a good department there. With that I'll cl ose, Mr. Min ister because I jus t in di cate tha t th ere are some good thi ngs happ ening too, not all negative. MR. MA CKLING: Mr. Chai rman, I'm happ y to note tha t the honour able memb er has some good thi ngs to say abou t govern ment enterpris e and I will often rememb er that, when I hear him sayi ng something to the opposite.

I migh t ind icate to him tha t there is an in forma tional pamph let as to maps that the department puts out and a copy of tha t will be on di spla y her e as soon as it comes down. I think that's all I want to say, Mr. Ch air man. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Rhi neland . MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland): Thank you, Mr. Chai rman. I have a great deal of sympathy wit h some of the qu estions that the Memb er for Emerson has raised. In my area especially we have a lot of villa ges south of the Town of Win kl er which were established man y years ago.

We find after many su rveys and so on that if you start sur veying from the south end of the vill age and you go nor th, you come up with dif ferent boun dary lin es than if you start from the nor th and you go south. Some of these vil lages have been su rveyed many ti mes and these su rveys ha ve been paid for by the indi viduals over the re, it has cost them a great deal of money and we still ha ve no t resolved the situation. I think at a tim e such as th is, I think the gove rn ment should take some action and onc e and for all decide where the bounda ries are going to be.

I think by and large you'r e going to find that the people are going to be happy to say okay, this 13 feet is your s and what ever and make amends. But it's very confusing if you'r e goi ng to try to get a lega l su rvey on this espe cially where a death is con cerned and where the property is passed on to another member of the famil y. This is not my major concern at the present time, Mr. Ch air man. On reading Item 1 O on page 101 it says, "Prov ision of central provinci al services in legal and controlled su rveys, topogr aphic and geograp hi c mapping," I under stand all tha t.

I am rather confus ed when we come to "remote sensi ng." I don' t kn ow wha t "remote sensing " is. I would lik e to have an explana tion of this, I see that later on down the page. We're going to pay $408,000 of money on Remo te Sen sing. I 711 wonder if we could have an explanation as to wha t is remote sensing? MR. MACK LING: Well, Mr. Chairman, I'll answer that last very good que stion fi rst. Rem ote sensin g is ph oto in terpretat ion using mechan ical means. There is extensive aerial - wel l, the honour able member wants an answer - I'll give him the answer.

There is extensive aerial pho tography taken of the provi nce. If you want details of that I can spell that out a bit more. We have a libr ary of pho tography in respect to land -a library of 20,000 to 25,000. No, I'm sorry, the material is upda ted as pho tography is requir ed, approxi mately 20,000 to 25,000 pho tographs ann uall y. A rapid search mi crofilm system has been develop ed for easy access to aerial pho tography coverage in forma tion.

The fol lowing projects have been und er taken to demon strate remote sensing techniq ues:- wh ite tail deer hab itat mapping, wood buffalo site selection and mapping, mapping of wi ldl ife areas, mapping of leafy spu rge in the Spruc ewoods Provin cial Park. Appr oxi mately 5,000 lin e mi les of reconnai sance pho tography will be flown for request ing agencies na mely, Municip al Assessment - the Honour able memb er wants the answer - Mun icip al Assess ment, Agricultur e, Water Resou rces, Parks Branch, Wildl ife Branch, etc., extensive work in that area, Mr. Chair man.

Now the honour able member was conc erned about lost monum ents or bound arie s and so on. Wher e the department is faced with a situation where the re is a confl ict between bou ndary marker s in a situation whe re he ind icates there's a problem in the town or commun ity, then that matter thr ough the Regis trar Gener al's Office un der The Real Prop erty Act can provide and request for a special sur vey to rectify the problem.

As a matter of fact I supp ose th ere are special sur veys the Honour able Memb er for Lakeside will remember going thr ough the Executive Council month in and month out requesting author ization for the Regis trar Gener al to have carried out and probably thr ough either this department or if this department is extensively enga ged by hir ing priv ate su rveyors, to provide a special su rvey of the commun ity in volved and this is common place.

But part of what the work that is bei ng provided for in the se Estima tes is $50,000 in that ongoing program of retrac ing bou ndaries and markers that I elabor ated on earl ier. That was a very extensive prog ram, a $7 million program for over a 20-year period to up date bou ndary markers and monu ments and so on, to cor rect the problems tha t the Honour able member ha s been talking about. But in addition to that as in di cated, special su rveys are taken under the aegis of the Reg istrar General of the Province of Man itoba. MR.

BROWN: I thank the Min ister for hi s an swer and I'll be getting back to some of the se com mun itie s to see whether some of the problems ha ve been cor rected in deed because it's about two years ago when this was a major problem in some of tho se areas and we were trying to correct them at that particular time.

Monday, 22 March, 1982 I also thank him for expl ainin g the remote sensi ng. I was very much aware of the air pho to li brary because I had seen my entir e farm in the air ph oto li brary. I'd seen the maps they had do ne. I was not aware tha t the y were going in to the leafy spur ge and the deer count and so on but I thank the Mini ster for his answer. MR . MACKL ING: Mr . Chair man, I ju st want to bring to the attention of the members now that here is a sample - at least I see it's tarta n, it's is not red, wh ite and blue on the cover, Mr .

Chair man of the in dex of maps that the province does put out. -(Interjecti on) no ther e's no Minis ter's pictur e in here. I haven't in ter fered with it. It 's a very int eresting catalogue of the various kin ds of maps tha t are available thr ough the departmen t. This in dex is supp li ed on request. As you can see it's a pretty expens ive looking piece of mate rial so we're not making them by the hundr ed thou sand and adding the Min ister's message or any thing like that on it. It's available as an in dex. -(Inter jection)- No pictur es. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Me mber for Virden. MR.

HARRY GRA HAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr . Chairman, I ju st have a few qu estions to ask before we com plete this segment. In the various su rveys tha t are carrie d out , in the aerial su rveys is the scale in nautical mil es? MR . MACKL ING: Mr. Chairman, it's now metric. did n't hear that, wha t was it? On the humour ous side, Mr. Chairman, we have gone metric at tha t. MR . GR AHAM: Tha t was the second qu estion. Every thing is no w be ing done in mapping in metric. Is tha t correct? MR . MACKLI NG: Correct. Righ t on. MR . GRAHAM: Oka y, thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Mini ster of Muni cip al Affairs. HON. A.

R. (Pete) ADAM (Ste. Rose): Thank you, Mr . Chairman, I jus t have a couple of clarifications or some qu estions on pol icy for the hir in g of con tract sur veying. The Member for Lakeside raised the point awh ile ago that some of the Association of Su rveyors had ind icated to him tha t ther e was lack of oppor tuni tie s for sur veying. I was wonderi ng wha t is the polic y for contrac ting out for provincial su rveys? MR . MACKL ING: Mr. Chairman, the practice of the department has been to rotate them among the pri vate li cens ed sur veyors.

Two would be selected for a project at a time then after that work is comple ted they would have had their parti cip ation and they would go to the bottom of the li st so th ere would be a constant rotation. MR . ADAM: Is this not done by tendering to the di f ferent sur veyi ng comp an ies so that you can get a lower tender? MR . MACKLI NG: I'm sorry, I misdir ected the Com mittee on that. Two sur veyors are selected at a time. The two bid and then the lowest bidder would get the job, carry it out and the other one would go on the bottom of the li st agai n. MR .

ADAM: So not all sur veyors are gi ven an oppor tun ity to bid on a particular job? MR. MACKLING: Not on a particular job, no. In time, all of the sur veyors are gi ven an oppor tunit y at public work. MR . ADAM: The reason I raise this, I believe it was in 1979 and 1978 or 1980-81 - I don't remember exactly what year it was - but we had drai nage su rveys on waterways nor th of Ste. Rose, and one of the su rvey ing outfits was from Alber ta and the followi ng year it was a su rveyi ng outfit from Saskatchewan.

In view of the fact tha t the Min ister is raising the qu estion tha t th ere is a lack of op portun ity, I'm wond ering why are we havi ng outside sur veyors come in -and I appr ecia te that they should have a right to tender - but if we are going to allow out side of prov in ce sur veyors to tender work in Man itoba, at least all the su rveyors in Manit oba should hav e an oppor tun ity to tender, if that's the polic y. Tha t's why I raise this because I kno w it is a problem. MR . MACKLI NG: Mr . Chairman, I am advised by Mr.

Roberts that ther e are su rveyors who are Man itoba su rveyors but the y also sur vey in Saskatchewan and Alberta and have offices ther e, so that the y do work in all th ree provi nces. 712 MR . ADAM: Then the Min ister is saying that no sur veyors in Alberta that have li cenc e to sur vey in Sas katchewan and Man itoba, those are not sur veying her e, wher e their head office is in Alberta. Is that what the Minis ter is sayi ng? MR. MACKL ING: No, Mr . Chair man.

The y operate in Man itoba, are li censed and qualif ied to operate as lic ensed su rveyors in Man itoba, even though the y migh t be headquar tered in Saskatchewan and Alberta, the y are autho rized here. They have to be lic ensed though in Man itoba. MR . ADAM: Of cour se. I fully und erstand tha t in order to su rvey here they have to have a li cence here, but it raises the qu estion, when we do not have enough work for our own su rveyors here, why we allo w su rveyors in Alberta to tender and we exclude some in Man itoba from tenderi ng. Tha t's the point I'm raising.

If all the su rveyors in Manitoba are allowed to ten der along with out sid ers from Alberta, even though the y have a li cenc e to su rvey here, if the y're all al lowed to tender that is fine and at least the y have a cha nce to bid and if the y're lower the y can be accepted . But if the y're not in vited to tender, then it begs the que stion of, what's going on? MR. MACKLI NG: Well, Mr . Chairman, I think the qu estion the Honour able Min ister raises is an int erest in g one. I'd be prepared to look at it.

I think wha t we're inv olved in here is profession als tha t are lic ens ed in more than one provi nce. I assume that a Man itoba li censed land sur veyor hea dqua r tered in Man itoba can obta in li censing in Saskatche wan and do work there, yet he has his head office in Manitoba and providing he's li censed in Alberta, can do work th ere. It appears that Saskatchewan head qu artered sur veyors, provi ding the y are lic ensed in Man itoba could do work here. It's the same with the legal profession, it's the same with doctors, it may be the same with accou ntants.

Profess io nals may be enabled to so long as they're qu alified and lic ensed, practice in more than one jurisdic tion. No w that apparently is a lon g-stan ding practice, to the extent that impi nges upon th ose pro fessiona ls who are headqua rtered in this provi nce as agains t merely bei ng lic ensed in this provi nce, it's an int eresting que sti on. But ap parently it's been a long standing practice not to make that di sti nction. Th at practice does not elimi nate the sur veyor head qua rtered in Man itoba from parti cip ating at some time, because he goes on a rotat ing lis t, as I explained.

Sooner or later he's going to have his oppor tun ity to bid. MR. ADAM: Then I un derstand it that the Man itoba sur veyors go on a rotating lis t in compe tition to sur veyors in other provinces who are lic ensed to sur vey in Man itoba. Is that correct? MR. MACKLI NG: Yes, Mr. Ch airman. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with that polic y provi ding that all Man itoba sur veyors have an op portunit y to bid.

If you are saying we're going to allo w two surve ying outfit s in Man itoba to bid or ten der on a contract and we're going to allow others in Alberta or Saskatchewan to ten der as wel l, I'm sayi ng tha t all Man itoba su rveyors should be al lowed to tender. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Robl in -Rus sel l. MR. J. WALLY McKEN ZIE (R oblin-Russell): Mr. Ch airman, I only ha ve the one que sti on. Is the metric system now in all provinces of Canada in the mapping sur veys br anc hes of all the governme nts of the prov inc es across Canada, are they all metric now? MR. MACK LING: Mr. Ch airman, Mr.

Roberts will not confirm they are 10 0 percent but the y are about 90 percent metric now. There may be some jurisdictions that are not comple tely con verted yet I don' t kn ow whether I can gi ve you mu ch more than that, Mr. Chairman. For example, I could ask him about ind ivid ual juris di cti ons. Alberta is 10 0 percent. The reason that Mr. Roberts ha s to qual ify tha t a bit is because there's an im plemen tation process and it may not be fully com plete, but all jurisdictions are commit ted to it or are in the process to it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR.

CLAYTON MANNE SS (Mor ris): I would lik e to ask the Min ister a few qu estions regard ing aerial pho - 713 tographs. How frequen tly are these pho togr aphs taken thr ough out the rural area, in particu lar? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Ch airman, the Hon ourable Me mber for Lake side has already volu nteered one of the answ ers.

If there's an area that has an inf estation of leafy spurge and a Conserva tion Officer in that area deems tha t it would be appropriate to upda te the progress of the leafy spurge in tha t area, there will be a request for aerial pho tography and that will assist in determining that As I un derstand it, it's on an as requ ired basis. There is some systematic continuous pho tography, though, of up grad ing our -( In terjection)- for mapping. But for in dividual surveys or any thing lik e that it's on an as requ ired basis. MR.

MANN ESS: Have there ever been requests from Ottawa, and I'm thinking specificall y of the Canadian Wheat Board, to work together towards crop surveil lance in any form? MR. MACKLING: No, Mr. Ch airman, the last program that the department recalls any in volvement with was in 19 70. I belie ve that the Federal Govern ment does have some ind ustrial and agric ul tural sur vey capacity on crops and mi nerals and so on thr ough satel li te viewing. MR.

MANN ESS: Yes, 19 70, of course, would be tied in to the year of LIF T when the y were probably want ing to determine the acreages of sum mer fallows and seeded crop.

I gue ss the reason I asked the que stion is because the Wheat Board, again, is propos ing ano ther type of quo ta system where they may want to look closely at the actual seeded acres and the y may want to attempt to iden tify this sort of thing, and I'm wonde ri ng if they, in fact, need to approach the Pro vincial Gove rnme nt for su pport in this way or do they have the capabili ties th emselves; and if the y did sup port the Provin cial Govern ment, what attitude would they take towards working with the Wheat Board. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr.

Ch airman, this is not the Esti mates of the Federal Department of Commun ications, so I ha ve no idea wha t the Federal Gove rnm ent's sur veys, aerial or satel li te, in volved; the department has no inv olvement. I have ind icated the last time there was any inv olvement of this department with the Federal Gove rnment in respect to the areas of con cern that the hono urable member had, was in 19 70. MR. MANN ESS: My qu estion, 19 70, yes, tha t was to surveyal, farm, farm planti ngs.

I'm saying that system may come back again and I want to kno w if this Pro vin cia l Gove rnm ent is prepared to work with the governme nt in tha t regard. MR . MACKLI NG: Mr. Ch airman, we don' t kn ow any thing about that; they may be using satell ite. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ri ver East MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): I was wonderi ng about the private sur veyors tha t are hi red by the provi nce; the emplo yees tha t work for these, are they generally,

unio ni zed, non-union ized or a mi xed bag? MR . MACKLI NG: Mr . Chairman, the private sur vey ors are profes sio nals, but staff in the areas, as we un derstand it, are not unioni zed. Th ere would be a relatively small nu mber of staff per su rveyor. MR. EYLER: So they're not un ioni zed at all; there's no di stinction between un ioni zed su rveyors and non unioni zed? MR . MACKLI NG: No t to the kn owledge of the department, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Pembina. MR. DON ORCHARD (Pembi na): Mr. Chairman, this qu estion may have been ans wered.

Does the depar t ment util ize any aerial sur vey, aerial pho tography, other than Gov ernment Services. tha t provided by Gove rnment Services planes. In other words, do you cont ract to priv ate in divid uals to perform aerial sur vey? MR . MACK LING: I am gi ven to un derstand that all the aerial pho tography is done by private com panie s. MR. ORCHARD: 100 percent done by private com pan ies? And tha t is done by an open tenderi ng sys tem, I take it? MR . MACKL ING: Mr . Chai rman.

I und erstand tha t some of the remote censi ng is done by our own bra nch, but other than that the aerial pho tography mapping is cont racted out. MR. OR CHARD: Not having the figur es that you'r e spending per year on actua l aerial sur veill ance, could you break down wha t percentage is done by in-hou se staff utilizing, I assu me. Gov ernment Service air craft versus the volume of work whi ch is ten dered out to private service providers? MR. MACKL ING: Mr .

Chairman. fi rst of all, let me say, tha t this department is not a department of sur veil lanc e; maybe it was some time ago, but I hope it's not called that now. Wha t we're inv olved with is reconnais sance pho tog raphy, and appr ox i mately 5,000 li ne-mi les will be flown for requesting agencie s, namel y, mun icipal assess ment. agricultur e, water resou rces. parks branch, wildl ife branch, etc.

No w, wher e we ha ve a specific aerial reconnai ssance pho tography requir ed to determi ne, or assist in determin ing, com pensat ion und er a flood damage progr am, or so on, then the work is ten dered to private aerial pho tograph ers. I could n't qu ant ify wha t tha t means in dol lars in the previous year. I im agine tha t we'd have that in formation somewhe re. We could obtai n it I supp ose if it's really imp ortant. MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman. I would very mu ch like the Mini ster to pro vide tha t kind of a breakdown.

Now I would assume from his ans wer that the 5,0 00 li ne-mi les that are flown are in -ho use. It 's in -hou se staff probably -( In terjection)- fair, over-h ouse. I assume you'r e referring to them being up in the sky. Now, I would assume that 5,000 li ne-mi les are done by staff and I would ass ume also that they're done util iz in g Gov ernme nt Air Service ai rcraft. Would I be cor rect in that? MR. MACKL ING: Tha t is correct, Mr . Chairman. MR.

ORCHARD: And that you would under take to provide the volum e of work whi ch is cont racted out privately; ju st the dollar vo lume of work tha t's con tracted out privately? MR . MACKLI NG: Yes, Mr . Chairman. Obviously there is some concern that we ought to be doing tha t in ho use and we'll certai nly look at it and qua ntify it. MR. ORCHARD: Mr . Chairman, qu ite the contrary, I sus pect this Min ister will probably end up doing every thing in -h ouse, tha t's why I want to kn ow wher e the break-out is now. so that we can have a look next year. Mr .

Chairman. do you have a mailing li st, does the Min ister ha ve a mailing li st of people who are inv ited to tender on the work that was under taken by private fi rms? MR. MACKLI NG: Yes, Mr. Chairman. MR . ORCHARD: Then anyone who has that capabil ity, if he isn' t on the li st, could get on the li st so that he receives the natur e of the work requir ed and could enter a tender to un dertake tha t work, if he were on that mailing li st? MR. MACKLI NG: The que stion is, can someone who is in this busine ss get on the mai lin g lis t? Certain ly. I mi ght in dicate, Mr.

Chair man. for the edifica tion of the honour able member and other s tha t, to the departmen t's kno wledge th ere is onl y one aerial reconn ais sance pho tog raphy private company in Man itoba. Th ere are others in Western Canada and the bulk of them are in Eastern Cana da. 714 MR. ORCHARD: Who is the sin gle company in Mani toba tha t can und ertake that kind of work? MR . MACKL ING: Air que st Sur veys Lim ited. MR . ORC HARD: Mr .

Chairman. has the department had need or would they envision need to un dertake any in frared sur veillan ce of our resour ces. particu lar ly say our forest resour ces or has it onl y been I assume, black and wh ite photography? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, I'm gi ven to und er stand the 5,000 line mi les in clu des in frared, black and wh ite and colo ur. MR . ORCHARD: Can the Air qu est group provi de in frared capability for the department? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr . Chairman. MR . ORCHARD: Do you have a hi ghl y techn ical requir ement?

I'm tryi ng to determine from wha t height do you requir e your aerial su rveys to be taken? Are

Monday, 22 March, 1982 you aiming at a squ are mil e sho t or are you aim ing at four squar e mi les? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr. Chairman, it depends, as the Honour able Memb er for Lakeside would point out, whether you'r e looking for leafy spur ge or whether you're look ing to determine the extent of flood dam age in an area or ju st wha t it is you'r e ende avouring to map, so the height may be 1, 000 feet, it may be 10 ,000 feet. MR. ORCHARD : It 's not a propo sition sim ply of all filming being done from one level and jus t doing more of it if you have to cover a bigger area.

I take it if you have to cover a bigger area you requir e them to go high er to cover a larger area with one shot? MR. MACK LING: Mr. Chairman, I return to my earl ier qu esti on. It depends on the pu rpose for which the aerial su rvey is requir ed. MR. ORCHARD : But if someone had the capabilit y to under take the departmental needs they would be offered the op portu ni ty to tender on tha t priv ate busi ness, I take it.

Can the Min ister ind icate whether Air que st receives tha t busi ness on an hour ly bid basis or is it a com petitive bid with the supplie rs of tha t service from other provinces offering a bid as well? MR. MACKLI NG: I'm sorry. Could the member repeat the que stion? MR. CHAIR MAN: Could you repeat that . the Member for Pembi na? MR.

ORCHARD: When the department un dertakes the natur e of work which requir es a private indi vid ual to provide that service in aerial pho tography, does the department routi nely ask for and receive tenders from Air que st in the provinc e but also from other providers of services, say, in Saskatchewan or Alberta, or wh er ever they exist? MR. MACKLI NG: Mr . Chairman, the sh ort answer to the last qu estion the honour able member mentioned was yes.

The work is put out for tender to the compan ies kn own to be capable of doing the work that the department requir es whether those companie s are loc ated in Western Canada or Eastern Canada. In respect to the work done in ho uses agai nst work done outside, appar ently, the honou rable member may be conc erned about some aerial pho tography that was requested in respect to a firm in Carman, Man itoba for some in terpretation in respect to for estry or some other area and it was decided that the work could be done in hou se.

The firm wasn't avail able in a time frame that the admin istra tion thought was adequa te so the work was done inhou se. MR. ORC HARD : To recap then, should a firm have the capabil ity needed by the department they would be with welcome put on the mailing li st to tender on all work un dertaken by tender in the department? MR. MACKLING : Well, Mr. Chairman, if we have fi rms that are capable of doing the kind of work we 715 need to have done then certainl y we would be in ter ested in ha ving them partici pate in a tender.

But in respect to the work bei ng done by the Carman firm, they did n't have the capacity to do the work we requir ed. MR. OR CHARD : Who would one cont act in the department to determine the technic al capabil ities, whether in fact they could pur sue work for the department? MR. MACKLING: Thr ough the Minis ter's office, Mr . Ch air man. MR . OR CHARD: The Min ister hand les all of these sorts of thi ngs routi nely hi mself then? MR. MACKLING : Mr . Chair man, the previous Mini s ter and the Mini ster before, I'm sur e, was the conduit through whom all inquir ies are made. MR. ORCHARD : That's fine , Mr .

Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Minn edosa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Min nedosa). Mr . Chai rman, I ju st have two que stions.

The 5,000 lin e mil es tha t are conduc ted in aerial mapping each year, is any of tha t done with the detection of can nabis plantings as the main reason for - I kn ow why the Me mber for Pembina is so int erested because that valley is a pretty good spot and I know they run qu ite a num ber of aerial mapping su rveys th ere but I don't kno w whether it's done by the RCMP or by your department - I take it ther e's none that is con tracted by your department for tha t particular pu rpose. MR. MACKLI NG: I'm not aware of it, Mr . Chairman. MR.

BLAKE: Wel l, one more qu estion, could the Mi n ister tell me if any of their aerial mapping has been done with the inf rared pho tog raphy to detect heat loss on various vill ages and towns? MR. MACKLING : Not yet, Mr. Chair man, but we'll have to look in to that. MR .

BLAKE: Tha t's righ t, it's energy, but this would be the natu ral department probably to un dertake it seeing as they have a mapping -(Interjec tion)- that is a very very accu rate method of detecti ng heat loss and if the y're in terested in the insula tion program, as long as they are no t using UFI Foam or wha tever the correct term is but I ju st wanted confirmation tha t it's not bei ng done to any great extent. MR. MACKLI NG: Mr .

Chair man, we'll take th ose su gges tions un der advisement but I assume tha t if we had our equipm ent operating now flyi ng in the prox imi ty of this room, there would be conside rable evi dence of heat loss. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Minn edosa. MR. BLAKE: I'm qu ite serious, Mr . Chair man, because that's an excellent program that could be un dertaken

Monday, 22 March, 1982 in smalle r towns by one of the service club s beca use it's not tha t expensiv e. If the govern ment was pre pared to provide the service, I'm sur e there would be some takers. In fact, some of the in su lati on people migh t even ki ck in a few dol lars and have it done. MR . CHAIRM AN: The Memb er for Rhin eland . MR. ARNOLD BROWN (Rhin eland): Thank you, Mr. Cha irman, I'm sti ll in trigu ed by this Remote Sen sing. I hope that the Min ister of Muni ci pal Affairs is going to be li stening in on this con versation.

About 20 years ago, leafy sp urge was jus t about wi ped out; it was on a cou ple of qu arters, I would say, south of Wink ler. A couple of them were condem ned for qui te a few years in whi ch the mun icip al ities, along with the Depar tment of Muni cipal Affairs, carried out very extensive leafy spurge control and I would say it was very successf ul. How ever, si nce then the y have curtailed this pro gram of control ling leafy spurge and I notice now tha t leafy spu rge is in the di tches all the way from my area in to Winnip eg.

Leafy spurge ca me from the Un ited States ori gi nall y and it's creeping its way farther north and it's a very bad weed. We all know this, it's very dange rous. It's a poisonous plant and if the cattle eat enou gh of it th ey're going to di e. We have ano the r equall y bad weed, milk weed, wh ich has become very predomi nant and I don't kno w if Remo te Sen sing is also sensing milk weed. I would lik e to kn ow if we have any read ing on the dis tri bution of milk weed at the present ti me? MR .

MACK UNG: That's in the Agricultural Depart ment's Estima tes I'm sure - the cont rol of noxious weeds - but I'm sure if there is a specific req uest for this department to map the spread of milk weed we would un dertake that aerial sur vey. MR .

BROWN: I would ju st li ke to point out to both Min isters, the Min ister of Natural Resour ces and the Min ister of Muni cipal Affairs, tha t both of these weeds are getting to be a big concern with the mun icipal it ies all the way from Winkl er up to Winnip eg because we see occurrence of leafy spurge and milk weed throu gh out the entire area and I ho pe we will receive co opera tion from all the Minis ters responsible in trying to curt ail these weeds. MR. MACK UNG: Mr.

Ch airman, I would like to assur e the honou rable member that we will co-operate in any survey or study tha t is necessary to control th ose terrible weeds. MR. CHAIRMAN: 10 .(a)(1 ) to 10 .(d) (1 ) were each read and passed. The Memb er for Radisson. MR. LECUYER: Ju st a qu estion for my own observa tion here. In the Estima tes tha t we've dealt with so far, in regard to Natural Reso urces, I gather tha t the peo ple of Man itoba stand to gain, in terms of revenues, whether it be from the Crown lands, park, or irriga tion, or forestry, or wildl ife.

You, yourself, said a while ago tha t one item alone, that of the wild fur, had a return of $1 O milli on to the trap pers and had $1 O mi llion, $50 million worth of spi noff to Man itoba. I'm jus t won deri ng if the Mapping Di vision represents reven ues, and I gather it does, and could I have some idea of wha t kind of revenues there are derived from the Mapping Di vision? 716 MR . MACKUNG: Mr. Ch airman, I'm gi ven to un der sta nd tha t from our sale of maps the previous year, about $1 45,0 00; anticipa ted thi s year, about $1 65,000.00. MR. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Min ister.

I'm also won deri ng whe ther, I gather obviously Man itoba doesn't do any satel li te pho togra phy? MR. MACK UNG: No, Mr. Chairman, too expensive. MR . LECUYER: If Man itoba has needs in this respect, they would then be con tracted from Ottawa? MR . MACK UNG: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, we'd purchase it from Ottawa. MR . LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Minis ter. MR. CH AI RM AN: The Honour able Mem ber for Pembina. MR . ORCHARD: Mr.

Ch airman, tha t last answer, tha t would be purchased from Ottawa, but tha t I assume would have to be NASA Lan dsat In forma tion, nothing tha t we have in cap abili ty in space would un dertake that; is that not correct? MR. MACK UNG: Mr. Chai rman, apparently the inf or mation is received in Prince Albe rt from an American satellite. MR . CHAIR MAN: 10 .(d)(2) to 10 .(f)(3) were each read and passed. Resolution 110 .

RE SOLVED THAT the re be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,6 76,000 for Natural Resour ces for Su rveys and Mapping for the fiscal year end ing the 31s t day of March, 19 83 -pass. MR. MACKL ING: Mr. Ch ai rman, before we get in to the next item, I have copie s of the Co nstruct ion. Mr. Chairman, I assume that everyone has a copy now in front of them. Anyone tha t doesn't have a copy, we'll try and acco mmo date you but there are the appropri ations. As you can see, a good many of them are a con tinuing appropria tion. Mr.

Chai rman, we will arrive at the detail of that item un der No. 13 , apparently. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, we're on No. 11, Engi neering and Construc tion. MR. MACK UNG: Mr. Chairman, when we get down , as the honou rable members will look thr ough the Estim ates, the re is Engi neering and Con struc tion, that's Item No. 11. No. 12 is Region al Services and then Item 13 is Construc tion of Ph ysical Assets and that's the detail that I have gi ven you now, itemized. So I would prefer if you would go throu gh Engi neer ing and Construc tion, and so on, and we can deal with

the detail of the capital programs under Item 13 . But you have it before you now so tha t you can look at it. MR. ENNS: Mr . Ch airman, a few com ments before we proceed. Fi rstly, you indic ated to us, Mr . Min ister, that the Dir ector of Water Resources was on holida ys. Can you in dicate to the Comm ittee whether Mr. Weber will be available to us tomorrow? MR. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Ch air man, we can have him here. MR. ENNS: Mr .

Chai rman, while the capital items ind icated in the sheets tha t you ju st passed out for portions of the departments, particular ly deal ing with the Wildli fe portion, or the Forestry, are specific enough but, Mr . Ch airman, I mu st in dic ate tha t the projects tha t this Comm ittee, and certainly members of the Oppos ition are keenl y in terested in are the Land Drai nage Recons truction Programs and one global figur e of 2.8 million sim ply doesn't tell us an y thing as to wher e tho se works are to be unde rtaken.

My qu estion is, are they avai lable, can the y be passed out to us at this time as was ind icated? MR. MACK LING: Mr. Chairman, fuller detail will be available tomo rrow in cluding a map, I'm gi ven to un derstand, but this giv es you at least some earlier in dic ation of what's in volved. MR. ENNS: Mr. Ch air man, I really feel that we have had very li ttle opportu nit y to even acquaint our selves with the pro posals before us.

I was hoping that per haps, particular ly, the Land Drai nage Program would be in our ha nds at this time so that we could have some in tellig ent discussion about the projected expen di tu res in the coming Estima tes. I would ask the Min ister or the members of the Com mittee whe ther they would entertain Commit tee rising at this particul ar point to enable us to, at least, acq uaint ou rselves with what was ju st passed out or we can, of cou rse, carry on. MR. MACKL ING: Wel l, Mr.

Chairman, to accom mo date the members, we aren't on the item at all but I provided this in formati on so tha t you could ha ve some prel imi nary review of it. I'm acco mmoda ting the members of the Comm ittee, I di dn' t have to. I've been answ ering qu estions earlier on in some detail as to specific items. Dur ing the cou rse of the Wa ter Reso ur ces portion of the Esti mates I did ind icate in answer to some honour able members that, yes, ther e was a specific in respect to the capit al item and ela bo rated on that. Certain aspects of the Construction Program I have alr eady articu lated in fair detail.

What we're doing here is gi ving you an outl in e; tomorrow we will have all of the detail, we can spend as many hour s or as many days as the honour able members want in respect to it. I can' t see why we can' t go ahe ad with the next

section of the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Spri ngfield on a point of order. MR. ANDY ANSTETT (Springfield): Mr. Chairman, to the same point the Minis ter was add ressing I share the 717 concern with the Member for Lakeside that when we get to

Section 13 , Acquisi tion/ Construction of Physi cal Assets, we would want more detail on some of these lar ge-dollar items which are, in thems elves, substantial programs with a lot of indi vid ual detaile d projects. Ho wever, si nce we're not at that item yet I appr eciate we will want an opportu nit y to examine that in advance of debating it, I would certainly be willing to sug gest that had we reached that item we should not proceed with it at this point, but si nce we sti ll have a page-and-a- half to go and two Resolu tio ns, I would su ggest, Mr.

Chairman, that we can conti nue on the Engi neerin g/Const ruction item. If we were, by any chanc e, to get to 13 , I would be prepared to move Comm ittee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Lakesi de on the same point. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order, th ere seems to be a natu ral order to these Esti mates that would commend itself to us and that would be sim ply to di scuss with Mr . Newton present, who is in ch arge of carryi ng out the Capital Projects and do the Engi neeri ng Con stru ction, the item that we are now on along with

Section 13 . I was going to sugge st the Regional Services, which is really qui te di fferent; it is the enforcement arm of the br anch. In other words, what I'm sug gesting we are prepared to consider the Resolution 11, Engine eri ng/Con struc tion along with Resolution 13 all in one package and then come back to deal with the Regional Services. MR . MAC KLING: Mr. Chairman, I haven't been arbi trary or di fficult in respect to the order of determining the Estima tes. I bel ieve tha t I' ve exh ibited flex ibil ity in respect to this.

Bu t, we ha ve staff here no w, staff will be here tomo rrow when we get to capital, and staff will be her e in respect to Regional Services tomorrow. We could deal with Eng ine ering and Construct ion tonigh t; that deals with gener al adminis trati on, the specific capit al items will be dealt with at as long a period of time as the honour able members want tomo rrow. I would ju st lik e to make some prog ress. We have about 10 or 12 minu tes. The se are pur ely admin istrative Esti mates, why can't we deal with Item No. 11? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm prepared to pass that right now. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 11 .(a) (1 ) to 11 .(c)(2) were each read and passed. Reso lu tion 111. RE SOLVED that there be granted to Her Maj esty a sum not exceed in g $6, 13 4,4 00 for Natu ral Resou rces for Engi neering and Construc tion for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of Ma rch , 19 83-pass. MR. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, I move tha t Com mit tee rise. MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee rise. SUPP LY · NORTHERN AFFAIRS ENVIRO NMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIR MAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The

Monday, 22 March, 1982 meeting will come to order. IN TRODUC TION OF GUE STS MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we be gin, I'd di rect the mem bers' attention to the gal lery. We have a group of Boy Scouts from the Lac du Bon net Cons tituen cy un der the di rection of Mr. Jim Ray. Th ese Boy Scouts are represented by the Min ister of Gove rnmen t Services. SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS Cont'd MR. CHAIRMAN: Con tinuing with Resolution 11 7, 4.(

a) The Canada -Ma ni toba Nor thern Development Agreement. The Honour able Memb er for Tur tle Mo un tai n. MR. BRIAN A. RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr . Chairman, I wonder ju st going back to the Special ARDA Agreement for a momen t, if the Min ister could advise the Commit tee of wha t he consider ed to be some of the sh ortcom in gs of the existing agre ement tha t's expiring the end of this month? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister. HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Basically the shor t coming in tha t agreement was the fact th at it expir ed at the end of Ma rch and we need a new agreement.

When we went about to negotia te the new agreement, the Special ARDA Comm ittee was asked to provide some recomm end at ions whi ch they did. The y expressed some concerns about timing in respect to del ivery of some of the programs and they also sug gested tha t ther e were some other features that the y would like to see buil t in to the program whi ch we will no dou bt be discus sin g at the time when that program is put in pla ce through a signing ceremon y of the new agreement. MR. RANSOM: I gather then, Mr .

Chai rman, that the Special ARDA Agreement whi ch was in place was largely sati sfactory and that we'll look forward to see ing mor e or less a conti nua tion of the same ag reement. I wonder if the Mini ster then could tell us wha t his priorities would be in terms of the new Nor thern Development Agreement? MR. COWAN: Well, I ju st want to co mment on the Special ARD A Agr eement fi rst.

Th ere may be a numb er of ch ang es wh ich we see in the new agr ee ment but, by and la rge, the concept certain ly was satisfactory and tho se chan ges which we will see, while sig ni ficant to the persons who are affected by tha t agr eement, will in fact be, I would sug gest. mi nor in natu re; the y will be an imp rovement up on the exist ing agreement. In respect to The North lands Agreement, 1 've handed out a book whi ch in fact provides an overview of the consu ltation process and the resu lts of that consu lta tion process.

I can su ggest tha t I agree in most part with the prio ritie s tha t were outli ned in that particular consu ltation document. That's not to say I agree with all of them, but I think we do have to look towards human devel opment programs, programs wh ich take in to consid eration the need for supp ort services to North ern ers as they attempt to enter, as much as possible, in to the economic mai nstream. We also need some programs that facilit ate their movement in to tha t economi c mai nstream throu gh su pport ser vices to al low them to gain emplo yment and to main tain employment once they have done so.

Again, we want to see some of the money spent on in frastructure as has been done in the past. This will in clude sewer and water services, com muni ty roads, and air strip up grad ing. Now, tha t's what we're going to be di scussing in more detail as we go thr ou gh our negotiatio ns.

And, fina ll y, I think it is extremely im portant that th ere is an ongoing con sult ation mechanism which al lows for an extensiv e shari ng of in formation and sharing of id eas and criticisms and comme nts which will enable the agreement to grow wit h the experience of tho se who negotia ted the agreement and also with the experie nce of those who are being affected by the agreement. MR . RANSOM: Mr. Chairm an, I wonder if the Mi nis ter cou ld advise the comm ittee if there will be programs deal ing with reforestation, for in stance, fisherie s management, or caribou mana gement?

Can the Min ister advise us whether he has gi ven consid eration to having tho se types of programs in the new No rthern Develop ment Agreement? 718 MR. COWAN: I can in form the Memb er for Tur tle Moun tain that we have sug gested that th ose sorts of programs be in clu ded in the agreement. The agree ment is now und er negotiations and ther e is, at this time, no defi ni tive answer as to whether th ose pro grams will be in clu ded in the ag reement; but we are certai nly promoting them. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Mini ster then cou ld advise us a li ttle more of the su bstance of the programs that he's promoti ng; the programs tha t deal , for in stance, with reforestation, or with caribou management, for example? MR. COWAN: Some of the existi ng programs which have been in the No rthl ands Agreement in the past and which we would lik e to see in clu ded in the new agreement in clude those activities.

We're also discus sing contin uation of a numb er of other programs whic h fall under the general categories whi ch I addressed previously, BUN TEP bein g one of them; AESES being ano ther one whic h has gained some favo ur with recipients of the program; air strip devel opment ; some in ternal roads, forestry roads leadin g to resources wh ere appl icable; co mm unity wildli fe management which would allo w for No rtherner s to become more in volved in the management of wildli fe in their own area: wild rice development: commu nity resour ce planning, which could include some of the activities wh ich the Memb er for Tur tle Moun tain is addres si ng; forestry resource development which certa inl y would include some of those; the New Careers Program, an ongoing program whi ch is one great favour and has been used as an example in man y other areas as wel l; employment services; the Youth Core as was in the program before; Youth

Travel; Busi ness Man agement Advisory Services, which is a progr am which will allow No rtherners to develop some expertise in management ski lls that will enable them to take greater advantage of those eco nomi c activ it ies which are ongoing in thei r own area; Channel Area and Moose Lake Loggers, of cou rse; and local gov ernment services. These are all pri ority areas and areas which most lik ely would be in clud ed in the New Nor thern Ag ree ment if, in fact, we can reach some sort of sati sfactor y conclusion in negotia tions with the Federal Govern ment.

We are certa inl y prom oti ng these types of pro grams with in the new agree ment. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I find it somewhat in teresting that when we used to sit on the other side of the Ho use and the Member for Chur chill sat on this side of the Ho use, we used to be able to get all kin ds of in formation out of the me mber when he was ju st the Member for Ch urchill. No w that he's the Minis ter, with Min isterial responsibil ity, we seem to have a li ttle more dif ficult y getting some in formation out of him. -(I nterjection)- Well, the Min ister of Fi nanc e says he has noti ced that too.

That's fi ne, I can appr eciate that perhaps he doesn't wish to talk in too much detail about the se programs, but from what I have heard so far I really haven't detected any di fference in the con tent of the new No rthern Devel opment Agreement that is un der negotiation now. I hav en't detected any di fference from what we were put ti ng forward in governme nt for a new Nor thern Development Ag ree ment over the past months. If there are some dif feren ces, I would certainl y lik e to hear about them from the Min ister because it appears to me that th ere really aren't any differences at this point. MR .

COWAN: Yes, the onl y dif ference I think is we antici pate getting the agreement. MR. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Chairman, we antici pated getting the agr eement too. In that case then, I wonder if the Min ister can advise us the amount of money that he antici pates going in to th is kin d of program? Where do we see the total amount of funding that would be going in to a new No rthern Development Agreement and wha t would the cost-sharing form ula be? MR. COWAN: Wha t we are request ing is a 10 0 per cent figur e of $22,289,300.00. That is our request; that is $22,289,300.00. -(lnterjec tion)- Perhaps I can.

Oftentimes, as the Member for Tur tle Mountain, the previous Min ister of Financ e, kno ws the way in whic h the funds were split up was 20 per cent in Fi nanc e and 80 percent of the funds were alloca ted in Nor thern Affairs. So, if you use the 80 percent figur e the n you have a $1 7,831 ,400 figur e but if you use the 10 0 percent figur e, which is what we're actually requesting and it's split up between the two departments, then you get the $22,289,300 fig ure. MR. RANSOM: What would the federal propor tion of that be, Mr. Chairman? MR .

COWAN: I'm afraid the Federal Gov ernme nt has yet to confirm what money they are going to be put ting in and wha t dif ferent ways, in to a Nor thlands 719 Agr eement, so I could n't answer that qu estion until we've had an oppor tunit y to reach an agreement with the Federal Gov ernme nt. MR. RANSOM: Mr . Chairman, even assuming then that the Federal Gov ernment put in appr oxi mately 60 percent, then the federal contribution presumably would come in the range of a li ttle over $13 mil lion.

I would remind the Min ister that in 19 80-81 that the federal contributi on in the se areas of progr amming came between $17 mil lion and $18 mill ion and, gi ven the in fla tionar y figur e that could be appl ied to that, ju st sim ply to keep pace with wha t was spent the year before last, which was the last year in whic h the full agreement was in place, then the federal contribution alone should be in the range of the amount of money tha t the Minis ter has jus t advised us is bei ng consi dered for the total Northern Development Agreement If that's the case then clearly th ere are going to be substantial cu tbacks in services from what were available the year before last.

MR. COWAN: It is my und erstanding, Mr . Chairman, that last year the Federal Gov ernment had $29 mil lion bud geted but of tha t amoun t they had deliv ered $14 mi llion di rectly which meant in fact tha t they were only del iveri ng $1 1. 5 milli on roug hl y thr ough the agree ment. It is my under stand in g as well that they will be looking at some di rect deliv ery of the programs and services onc e we have a new agreement as well. So, not all the items are cost-shared. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, my recoll ection could be faulty but my recollec tion was that in 19 80-81 the federal contributi on in this area of progr amming was someth ing li ke $17 to $18 million and tha t is the base tha t was being used as we entered in to negotiations a year ago to try and negotiate a new agreement I mu st say at the time tha t we fi rst met with the Federal Min ister that the re was every ind icati on tha t level of funding could be made available agai n and it was only as the year prog ressed tha t it became evident that level of funding was not available. So, I would sug gest, Mr .

Chairman, that alr eady, as the basis of nego tiati on, tha t the govern ment today is negotia ting on a much lower base than was being consi dered even a year ago and I would think that can only lead to a cutback in services in some areas in progr amm ing where it had previously been del ivered. Mr. Chai rman, one of the concerns that the Federal Govern ment ha d of cour se expressed to us was that they weren't getting credit for their contributions; there was wasn't enough visibili ty. In fact the Federal Minis ter put that in writi ng.

I'm sur e that if the Min ister cares to look through the fi les he'll either find it in his fi les or the fi les of the Min ister of Fin anc e wh ere the Federal Mini ster says that in deed, because th ere wasn't satisfactory visibil ity on the part of the Federal Gov ernment that they weren't prepared to proceed with some of the progr amming. I wonder how he has been able to satisfy that yearn in g on the part of the Federal Gov ernment for visibil ity. MR .

COWAN: Only time will tel l if we've been able to satisfy it, but I certa inl y have tried to be more co operative with them and I think they respect that. I

Monday, 22 March, 1982 mus t add tha t if one looks at the five-year agreement and looks at the cost-shared moni es as well as the di rect del ivery mon ies on the part of the Federal Gove rnment and the Pro vincial Gov ernme nt which will enter in to tha t ag reement, you will find tha t if we reach the type of agreement whic h we're talking about now, we will actuall y be spending more money over tha t five-year perio d than was spent in the pre vious five-year period.

Tha t's the basis upon which we're conduc ting our negotia tions but I think it's imp ortant to note as well tha t we are in volved in nego tiations right now. As a matter of fact, we are inv olved in very active and in tensive negotiations righ t now and I can' t add ress many of the que stions, altho ugh I would like to, but simp ly because I ha ve not been able to proph esy wha t the Federal Go vernment will do in respect to our offers and propo sals and they have not been able to do the same in respect to their offers and proposals, so we are di scus si ng the matter.

I can assure the member opposite that we are doing so in a very sinc ere and, I bel ieve, a very vigi lant way to ensur e that those programs, which in fact, have served No rthern Man itoba well will contin ue, and to ensur e that wher ever possi ble we will have cost sharing of th ose programs wher e it is deemed to be advisable and appropria te. So we are in volved in tho se negotia tions, we are con tinuing those negotia tions and the member kn ows full well tha t I am not tryi ng to be evasive in the least.

However, we are in volved in the negotia tions and when tho se negotia tions either su cceed or fail and the case may be either way, then we will sit down and be able to di scus s either ho w we su cceeded and wher e we were able to reach an agreement, or how we failed and wher e we were un able to reach an agreement. MR . RANSOM: I realize, Mr.

Chair man, tha t the Min ister doesn' t want to deal with detai ls of wha t he's negotia tion but sur ely it's possib le to say how the govern ment plans to deal with tha t basic express ion of concern that the Federal Gov ernment ha d tha t they weren' t getting credit for what they did. And that was not something that they applie d simp ly to Man itoba tha t was a concern tha t the y ha d across the count ry.

I know when I was Mini ster with some responsibi li ty in thi s area, we could n't get the Federal Gover nm ent to say wha t it was tha t the y really wanted and, in fact, I couldn't get an oppor tun ity to even meet and dis cu ss it with the Min ister. I'm wonderi ng how su ccessful this Min ister has been. I kn ow the Min ister of Fina nce is experi encin g some di ffi cu lty in getting to meet Fed eral Min isters and getting them to answer his letters and he's sti ll smiling abou t that, but I expect a few more ti mes and he'll begin to feel some frustration too.

I'm ju st wonderi ng whether or not ther e has been that problem with the Federal Gover nment, has it been add ressed and does the Mini ster think that he has some solution to it? MR . COWAN: Agai n, I can only sugge st tha t time will tell whether or not we have reached a sol ution, but to answer his specific qu estion in respect to how we attempt to deal with their concerns I think this after noon's session was a classic example.

We did not want to talk about a joint agreement, an agree ment whi ch is under negotiations - details of th ose ag ree- ments - without having had an oppo rtun ity to have a joint announc ement with the Federal Government. So in spite of some qu estioning on the part of the mem bers oppo site, we sugge sted that was a matter tha t was more appr opria tely add ressed in a joint way at the appropria te time.

It 's thr ough th ose sorts of overtures, and the y are overtures in deed, tha t we are attempting to bring a form of co-operative federalism back to Manit oba in gene ral, and in respect to north ern agreements in specific. I have had the oppor tunit y to meet with the Honour able Pi erre De Bane when he was through town. I have also had the opp ortu ni ty to meet with the Honour able Herb Gr ay; as a matter of fact, I have to in form the memb er op posite tha t the Honour able Gr ay made much of his time ava il able to me tha t evening.

We had wha t I consider to be a very produc tive meeting over di nner start ing early in the evenin g and con tinu ed until 1Oo r1 1 at ni ght thr ough consu ltations, and a brie f dis cus sion after that. So I have not had any difficu lty wh atsovever in meeting with the Federal Minis ters when we both have felt tho se meetings to be necessary, and I hope, bearing in min d, that from time to time, our respective sche du les will not permit tho se types of meetings to happen on every occas ion, we will con tinue to have them wherever it is possible. MR . RANSOM: Mr .

Chairman, I am pleased to hear tha t the Min ister is able to have tha t kind of discussion and I wish him well in con cluding an agreement . I have some concerns at the level of funding tha t's before us but , so be it. Would it be the Min ister's in tention to spend tha t entir e amount of money, ir respective of the response he gets from the Federal Gov ern ment? 720 MR. COWAN: I believe we will be spendin g the major ity of it on prio rity programs.

Certain ly, ther e are cer tain programs which mu st conti nue because of their acceptance, because of the value whic h the y prov ide to the developme nt of Nor thern Man itoba. Whether we will be spen ding the full amount or not, or more than the full amoun t, or a bit less than the lull amou nt, would have to be determi ned at the time we've reached the stage where we felt that an agreement was not forth coming.

I, too, have some conc erns about the level of funding and hope to ensur e that we are able to get every pen ny possible from the federal treas ur y to provide joint funding for many of the pro jects, and we are attempting to do that. Whether or not tha t will hap pen remain s to be seen, but we are driving a fai rly har d bargain in thi s regard and we are not, by any stretch of the imagi nation, jus t agreeing to a reduced Northl ands Agr eement wit h having giving it our best shot.

I'm not so certain tha t we wou ld agr ee to an ag ree ment if we did not belie ve that the funding contained in that agreement for cost-shared programs was of sign ificant advantage to the provi nce. One has to bear tha t in min d thr oughout the negotia tion s. Cost shar ing is a benefi cial process, but ther e is a stage when it is less benefi cia l than it is somewha t detract in g from the programs. We have to try to determi ne, as a pro vi nce, wha t tha t point wi ll be. We have to convince the Federal Govern ment of our sinc erity, the y have to convince us of their si ncerity, and if we can acco mp-

Monday, 22 March, 1982 lish that, and tha t's what we're work ing towards, then we will have the type of Northlands Agreement which we all want to see put in place. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minis ter could gi ve any ind ication of the amount of mone y tha t's estima ted to be flowed in '81 -82 in this gener al area of progr amming in Nor th lands or Nor thern developing progr amming? MR. COWAN: I'm told tha t appr oxima tely 11 .5 will be spent provincia lly in prog rammin g under that process. MR . RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, that stri kes me, by quick analysis then, that's a li ttle more, the provincial gov ernment spent a li ttle more in '81 -82 than the Min ister is propo sing to spend in '82-83, gi ven tha t the Federal Go vernmen t ha s a 60-percent cost shari ng. MR. COWAN: I'm sorry. I may have, in advertantly, gi ven the wrong figur es to the Memb er for Tur tle Moun tai n. Let me jus t go thr ough it one more time and I'll rely upon my staff to jump in if, in fact, I'm not giving the proper figur es.

In '81 -82, it is my un der stan din g that $1 1 .454 mill ion was spent in total as part of the Canada-Man itoba No rthl ands Agreement. We are propo sing to spend, in total, in '82-83, a total of $22.3 mil lion, I'm told. MR. RANSOM: The figur e that the Mini ster gave then was for federal and provi ncial expenditur es. Recently the Federal Gov ernment annou nced some cha nges in their structu re, or their economic plannin g for the cou ntry.

It was my un derstanding from li stening to the explanation of that new structure that had been put in plac e tha t ther e wo uld, in fact , be a new eco nomi c ... put in place in Winnip eg perhap s, cer tai nl y in Western Canada. Has the Minis ter any ind ica tion yet how that change in struct ure on the part of the Federal Gov ernment will affect their co-opera tion or delivery of programs with the Pro vi ncial Government? MR . COWAN: I bel ieve they'r e sti ll going through the th roes in Ottawa of attempting to reorgan ize the departments as the y had sug gested they would do a while back.

Thin gs aren' t really clear th ere yet, to my un derstan ding. Cons equ ently it's di fficult for us to tell here what effect that will ha ve in respect to the provi sion of these types of programs and other services. Without havi ng had an oppor tuni ty to review the way in which the chang es are going to be im plemen ted in a more specific way and over a longer perio d of time, I would hesitate to su ggest that any one effect is going to be accompl ished over another effect. We will watch it very carefu lly and we will make kn own any concerns we may have at the earliest oppor tune moment. MR . RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I don't think the Mini s ter entir ely answered my earl ier que stion with respect to how he was deal ing with the visibi li ty problem tha t the Federal Gov ernme nt had. One of the solutions tha t the y saw to their problem was tha t they would del iver more programs dir ectly, and I'm wonderi ng if the Min ister can advise us of any in dic ation th ere may be from the Federal Gove rn ment, whether or not they plan to move in to more areas of di rect program del iv- 721 ery.

Their conc ept of an agr eement as the seq uence of events un folded was no t so much an area of pro gramming wher e the province wou ld be the lead agenc y and del iver programs tha t were bei ng mo ni tored by a join t commit tee, but that rather the prov inc e would deliver some programs on a 10 0 percent bas is, and the Federal Govern ment would del iver some on a 10 0 percent basis.

If the experience in the other provi nces such as New Bru nswick and Nova Scotia I bel ieve, held true, then it would turn out tha t the Federal Gov ernment wanted to deliv er tho se pro grams whic h seemed to be most accept able and ha ve the most visi bili ty pub li cly and that some of the other programs that are perhap s even of greater necessity but weren't as colour ful and didn't have the same politic al appeal, would be left for the provi nces to deliv er.

I wonder if the Min ister could gi ve us any in dic ati on of wha t this agr eement, this new Nor thern Developme nt Agr eement migh t ha ve by way of deliv ering mechanisms? MR . COWAN: The Federal Govern ment certainl y is sug gesti ng that they want to become more inv olved in dir ect del ivery of programs. It has to be said that the Federal Gov ernment in some in stances can probably deliv er certain programs better than the provi nce. It has to be said in some ins tanc es the provi nce can, in fact, del iver programs better than the Federal Gov ernm ent.

So, ther e is a role for dir ect del ivery of certain programs based on the conc eptualization of tha t progr am, who it in tends to serve and how it in tends to serve. On the other hand, there are many programs which are better jo in tly deliv ered. Tha t is why we are inv olved in negotiations at this parti cular point in time. I' d sug gest if we wanted to have two separate progr ams in place, one which the Federal Govern ment del ivered and one which we del ivered in an in terface at certain selected poi nts in a mi ni mal way, an agreement would be easil y reached. That's not what we want.

We have said categoric all y that we will not have a Nor th lands Agreement ju st for the sake of having a Northlands Agreement. We have told their negotia tors that. We ha ve said that we want to ha ve a Northlands Agr eement that does, in fact, provide for appropria te joint del ivery wh ere that joint deliv ery is needed and wher e it is benef icial, and at the same time allo ws for dir ect del ivery wher e, in fact, we both agree that dir ect del ivery can best accomplish the goals of th ose services.

So th ere is some di sag ree ment at this point in respect to the way in which the programs will be delivered. We are not prepared to allo w for a large opti ng-out of the Federal Gov ernment in respect to the Nor th lands Ag reement in del ivery of programs . We are negotia ting the best possib le joint -deliv ery structure which we bel ieve we can get and we will conti nue to do that. If we can't get that sort of structure in place then we're goi ng to have to look at different op tions . The fact is, ther e's some que stion and that's what negotiati ons are always about.

If there weren' t those types of que stions ther e wouldn't be negotia tion s. Of cou rse, it would make my job easier and your job easier because I could tell you exactly what was in the program because there would be no need to negotiate it, but the fact is we are going to have to sit down and

22 March, 1982 un dertake, and we ha ve sat down and are un dertak in g, th ose types of in tens ive di scussions so that we can come to a meeting of the mind s. Tha t means a bit of gi ve and take on both parties. We're prepared to gi ve as well, we're prepared to demand that which we think is appropria te. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder ifthe Min ister would be prepared to advise the Comm ittee when he think s tha t the agreement migh t be signe d? MR. COWAN: I would care to if I could, and I ju st would not ha ve any date in min d at this time.

We are not at the stage wher e we could provide a date at this time. Both the Federal Gov ernment and myself ha ve giv en a commitment to attempt to final ize this ag ree ment as soon as is possible with the least possible dis ruption of service; tha t's exactly what we're attempti ng to do. But we are negotia ting, and when one negotia tes it's diffi cult for one to be able to pro vide a specific date as to when the y expect tho se negotiat ions to be acc om plished.

I could put a dead line on the negotiations and say either we have an agree ment by such and such a date or we don't but I bel ieve that would be count erproduc tive. What I am sayi ng is tha t we are inv olved at this point in active and in tens ive negotiations to try to sort out an y dis agreeme nts which may exist between the Pro vincial and the Federal Gove rnment in respect to the No rth lands Agr eement, and we will con tinue those negotia tions as long as they are prod uctive. MR . RANSOM: I realize all th ose thi ngs are true, Mr.

Chai rman, but the present fiscal year expir es at the end of this month and the new fiscal year is going to begin . I su ppose before the end of the month we're going to be pas sing In terim Su pply to autho rize the govern ment to begin spending money.

It would be nice to have some kn owledge then, whether or not the Mini ster is going to hold progr ammin g with in this department until an agreement is signed, or whether or not the Min ister plans to proceed to begin to spend all the mone y th at's shown her e to ini tia te all the progra ms on the hope tha t the gove rn ment, the Fed eral Government, will eventually sign the agreement.

So, I think th ere is some ur gency to conclude an agreement or at least to kn ow when the Min ister hopes to see an agreement conclud ed and if it's going to be for some tim e then the second que stion that follows is: will the progr amming which is provided for in the Es tima tes before us comme nce with the begin ning of April? MR. COWAN: Yes, the program which is provided for in the Estima tes will comme nce regardle ss of whether or not th ere is an agr eement in place.

Whether or not all of th ose will conti nue throughout the year is a factor tha t would ha ve to be determi ned after a spe cific perio d of ti me, but we certainl y do, as I su ggested earli er, in tend to continue a nu mber of programs which have been found to be beneficial and extremely useful to the northern residents, regardless of whether or not ther e is a Northlands Agr eement. We would hope to conti nue them un der a Nor thlands Agree ment.

We antici pate cont inuing them under a No rth lands Agr eement, but they are of such extreme imp or- 722 tance and value to northerners that we are prepared to cont inu e them with or without that agreement. MR . RANSOM: Yes, I kno w how imp ortant some of those programs are, Mr .

Chairman, but the Min ister mu st realize, of cou rse, that by co mmitting hi mself to un dertake tho se programs that he does in fact make it more di fficul t for hi mself to negotiate the agreement, because the Federal Gov ernment kn ows full well then tha t if the provi nce is comm itted to tha t level of fund ing that the y can take the funds they ha d in ten ded to put in and do someth ing else that has a hi gher profile. Tha t's a danger that he's going to have to face up to.

I think it's something the Minis ter of Fin ance had a simi lar sort of problem in com mitting to provide suf fi cient funding for the un iversities, to keep the un iversi ties from ha ving to raise tuition fees prior to kno wl edge of wha t kind of cu tback s were going to come from the Federal Govern ment by way of post-secon dary educa tion. But I recog ni ze tha t the Min ister has to face some serious problems in this area and I wish him well in his negotiations with the Federal Govern ment.

Arising out of the Fir st Min isters' Meeting in Vic toria last Augus t was a commitment or an agreement, I bel ieve, to have the Minis ters responsi bile for DREE, for negotia ting or maint ain ing contacts with DREE, to meet all 10 provin ces or at least the 8 or 9 that have any sort of sign ificant contact with DREE. Has tha t sor t of meeting taken pla ce to the Min iste r's kno wledge? MR. COWAN: Fir st to add ress the Memb er for Tur tle Mou ntain's fi rst qu estion.

Certainl y my having to stand her e and say that we are going to con tinue tho se programs regardless of the Northlands Agree ment does create difficu lty for me. I would have far preferred not to have to do it, but sinc e the memb er asked the specific que stion knowing tha t it would create di fficu lty for me, I felt that it was necessary for me to provide him with the fulle st possible answer and I did tha t, knowing full well that it does not help the negotiati ons.

I don' t kn ow what kin d of negative effect it will have on the negotiations because we've made it fairly clear all along tha t many of these programs are extremely impor tant and we would not want to see them dropped.

Ho wever, even although it does make it more dif fi cult for me to provi de tha t sort of categorical state ment , it would be extremely more di fficul t for North ern ers if I didn 't provide that sort of categorical statement; it would be extremely di ffi cult for tho se in BUNTEP not to kn ow whether or not that program would conti nue on because I refused to gi ve that sort of a statement; it would be di ffi cult for tho se in the New Careers Program, in the Empl oyment Services Program.

Govern ment would grind to a halt in many areas because they did not have an ind ication whether or not that money could be spent. So, in fact, whil e the statement which was requir ed to answer the Memb er for Tu rtle Mount ain does create di ffi cultie s, I really don' t fault him, because it was reall y not a qu estion at all. We mu st do tha t, and we mu st continue to negotia te as well so we are pre pared to do tha t, kno wing full well of the problems, and the serious problems, which any party faces

Monday, 22 March, 1982 when they go in to negotia tions; but also kn owi ng full well the seri ous problems tha t would be created if we did not gi ve some sort of a comm itment to the conti nu ation of th ose programs. In respect to the specific qu estion as to whether or not a meeting has been held between the Minis ters responsi ble for negotia ting sign ificant OREE -type agreements, to my kn owledge, it has not. MR . RANSOM: Mr .

Chairman, ju st for a moment the re I see the flash of the old Memb er for Ch urchill com ing back as he begin s to try and hang the ho rns on me for asking him the question abou t what he plan ned to do on the 1s t of April, and I think he kn ows full well that it wasn't because I asked him the que s tion that he had to make the decision; the decision has to be made beca use progr amm ing either goes ahead or it doesn't go ahead; and he kno ws full well that the areas that he menti oned such as BUN TEP, were those that were ag reed to previously with the amend ments that were carrie d on during '81 , and '82.

I would be more int erested in tho se areas of new progr amm ing that are being talked about. Does the Min ister plan to proceed with those programs? I assume some of the areas in Com muni ty Wildl ife Ma nagemen t and Fur Programs and Business Ma n agement and Refo restation and perhaps, even the progr am calle d Inl and Fish eries En hancement, if that's inc lu ded in the nego tiation, will th ose be held in abeyance, then, un til there is agr eement with the Fed eral Gov ernment? MR .

COWAN: I think I can safely say tha t we will not be going ahead in any sort of a gener al way with new programs un til such a tim e as we've had an op portu ni ty to fi naliz e our negotia tions, either positiv ely or negatively, as the case may be. In respect to the qu estion about the Min isters responsible for negotiating ORE E Agr eements, maybe I can provide ju st a bit of elab orati on to the Memb er for Tur tle Moun tain.

While I have not attended a meet ing, and to my kno wledge a meeting has not been held to date on tha t, I did receive a letter from the Min ister of Rur al Development in Newf oundland sug gesting that such a meeting be held and I have ind icated my willing ness to attend such a meeting, onc e it is held. It is not a matter of not wan ting to attend a meeting or not being in formed of the meeting, it's jus t my un der stan ding tha t the other parties inv olved have not been able to bring that mee ting to fruition yet. I'm prepar ed to att end; as a matter of fact I'm looking forward to it. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Pembi na. MR . ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. The Min ister made mention of a figur e of 11. 454 million '82'-82 funding which I bel ieve the Minis ter ind icated was not the provi ncial contribution but , in fact, the federal, plus provi ncial contribution. Mr . Chairman, I would li ke the Min ister to ind icate how tha t clarif ies with some 19 .243 mil lion that is in the last year's print of '81 '-82 spendin g. MR .

COWAN: Mu ch of that funding was dependent up on a Nor th lands Agreement be ing sig ned and, 723 because there was only an amend ment, not an agr eement, that money was not spent although it was the voted amou nt. MR.

ORC HARD: So then it's safe to assume that the federal portion of the 11 .454 mi llion, the federal por tion that's inclu ded in that figur e, represented carry over funding commitme nts by the Federal Govern ment on such major un dertak ings as the Nor way Hous e bridge and in ternal roads and tho se types of programs for which the Federal Gov ernment, because of delays in design, etc. had originally comm itted funding to but we were un able to cash flow. Is that a correct assump tion? MR .

COWAN: Perhaps, to provide fur ther detail to the Memb er for Pembina, I can provid e him with a breakdown by sector and he will see whe re tha t money flowed. There was $1 7,000 spent in sector A which is Reso ur ce and Communi ty Econ omic Devel opment; there was $8,975,300 spent in Human Devel opment and Com muni ty Services, I would beli eve tha t wou

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-18b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 18b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	46faf1dc0c821801bd1f09e1727124da87ebeeb3

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