THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA I 8 o'clock, Monday, April 22nd, 1963. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department XV, Item 1 -- passed. MR. GORDON BEARD (Churchill): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to speak on the problem of the Indian and Metis in the Churchill constituency. This is a particular problem, I believe, in our case inasmuch as over half the population in the Churchill constituency is made up of these people. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to consider, or have the government consider the develop­ ment of these human resources along with the development of the natural human resources, both renewable and non-renewable, so we may not lose this chance of developing both types of resources in the Churchill constituency. I think that we must start to consider these people as human beings rather than just Indians. While the Indian culture has changed a great deal in the past three to four hundred years, I do feel that it is still further apart from western culture than ever before.

Their life was certainly not designed for the white man's ways. Their cus­ toms and thoughts are in many cases so much different that the differences themselves cause a breakdown in the attempts to assist these people. We now have to help these people and nar­ row the gap between the two ways of life. We must agree that our customs are different; our conceptions of values are diffe rent. I believe that this is one of the basic problems that we have to deal with in dealing with the two peoples •. We can't continue to tell them to do this and to do that, and consider that we are going to have any amount of success.

We must remember, always, that these are people that we're dealing with, and in considering this I think that we must go to these people and ask them what they want. If we can find out how they want to do it and what they actually do want, then I thinl:< we can get at the basic problem and come up with a solution for it. Their backwardness usually is considered to come from laziness or lack of ambition. But I don't think this is the particular case. They may be backward in our way of life but are they backward in their own way of life?

What they require more than anything is the opportun­ ity to do the things that they want to do, and I feel that if we can give them this opportunity then they will come up with the answer and the solution in a short time. Their shyness and their communal way of life is often taken for laziness, for backwardness, but I disagree with this. Communal life and sharing is something that we in the modern world try to do through our welfare program, through our old age program, and yet in many cases we criticize these people because they have the basic things which we are actually trying to do in our way of life.

We must seriously consider these people, Mr. Chairman, these Indian-Me tis people, as one person. Their heritage is the same; their thoughts and customs are the same; and their language is the same. They have the same communal way of life, and yet to date we don't ac­ cept them as one people. One happens to be a treaty Indian, the other is a Metis --he is part something and

part Indian. He doesn't have to be part Scotch and part English. That doesn't make him a Metis. It's b\lcause he's

part Indian and part something else that he is considered a Metis, when he is in the position that he happens to be when we feel that he is being backward. If this man steps out and makes a goal in life that we're used to seeing, then he doesn't become a Metis any more. He becomes

part Indian and part something else. But if he's still in his backward way of life then he's a Metis. Then, if we consider these people as one, so that we can go to them and help them with their problems as one government -- rather than as two. These people live side by side. A treaty Indian and a Metis is no diff erent than Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones -- but Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones are out of work and they have one place to go to to get assistance-- they go to the same office; they go to the same welfare office. But these people don't because we have segregated them as far as legislation is concerned.

And this causes inconvenience and trouble and conf usion, particularly in the minds of these people. They go to one person and he says, "I can help you but I can't help your neighbour." And in helping one man then what he has as­ sisted them with has to be distributed to the neighbour too, so they are both doing without. In going to the federal authorities, in talking to provincial authorities, they both feel that this is the problem that would be best dealt with through a provincial department, such as Com­ munity Development.

Federal people have told me time and time again that �ey will be ready April 22nd, 1963 Page 1481

(Mr. Beard, cont'd) ••••• to hand over the affairs of these people to the province if the pro­ vince will administrate them and see to it that the treaty Indian gets a fair share, and in doing this I would suggest that possibly we look definitely to the Federal Government for their share of assistance on the treaty Indians. Regardless of whether he's a Manitoban or not, apparently the federal authorities will help them, and they consider them as citizens of the Government of Canada, and.this is fine for the province. They get tbe assistance. But the Metis must come along with th6m.

I think that the responsibility of these two governments could certainly be carried out by · ··our Community Development Officer in any of the communities, and certainly. through John Legil.sse. In talking with Mr. Legasse I find that he has many good ideas, but he is being held . up through trying to show the department what he feels is right. While I agree the government has to go siow on this, just how slow can we go? We've been going slow for three or four hun­ dred years and -- I certainly don't want to criticize the government.

I think they're trying to do a good job, but on the other hand I think that we should go ahead. We've appointed these people; let them carry out their jobs. The job is not for the people in Ottawa, the people in Winnipeg, to decide when it gets down to the basic issues. It is the person who is working with these people, particularly in the Churchill constituency.

And to have directors assisting the people, the Indian-Metis people, who do not live with tmm, who do not know their problems, or see their problems, or listen to them day by day, are really not authorities on the Indian­ Metis situation -- I don't intend to set myself up as an authority, but I do feel if the people that were working with these Indian-Metis people were allowed more authority and assistance, I think we'd get along with the job of develop�g, or helping these people to upgrade themselves.

I think that we shall have to look at the Indian-Metis problem from another light also, from the fact that we must train not only the child, and educate the child, but we must go back to educating the adult at the same time. To date, we have trained the child, and we fail when he returns to the stronger feelings of his parental love and the friendship and the old way of life which offers him something that he knows something about, regardless of the drawbacks that he sees when he goes home.

But if we can go ahead with the job of adult education along with the kindergartens -- because we must realize that fundamentally these people go home, these children go home, and they live the way that the Indian-Metis people are used to living, and they do this because primarily these people are not English-,speaking families, and the child gets confused. He goes to school; somebody teaches him English, or tries to teach him English; he goes home and it's forgotten about till the next day.

And we find that these child­ ren are not progressing along with the grades as they go from one grade to another -- they're pushed out of one grade actually into another and, while we may say they have a Grade 5 or 6 education, in many cases it possibly ends up as a Grade 2 or 3, but these children progress in school and it is very slow and very tough for the teacher.

She has to try to teach them English, try to teach them the English ways of living or Canadian ways of living which are altogether dif­ ferent, and by the time she teaches them a little arithmetic, a little oral hygiene, a little Eng­ lish, then the years have slipped by and they just get enough to get into trouble and not enough to really assist them. I think, in considering, that the day of the "big hunt" is over, and I like to look at it this way; inasmuch as we can't send them out to shoot their own moose -- we can't send them to do much more trapping because they've outgrown that.

We as white people have come in. We've chased them, crowded them into small corners •. We've driven the wildlife away from where they're used to going to get it, and in corralling them into a reservation they've got away from their own way of life where they used to go around hunting for this wildlife.

I think that if we could consider again this forward :.. looking program of developing the north, and get along with this job of developing our human resources so that they'll be ready to take the job opportunities that will come up in the north, then by the time the north is really opened up, we'll find that we have got away from the problem which certainly is not getting any smaller. I do feel that in asking companies in the north to help train these people, we're putting political pressure possibly on companies, which is not a fair way to bring about this type of a program.

I can assure you that companies such as the International Nickel Company, Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting, Sherritt Gordon, Canadian National Railways, ani the Federal Har­ bour Board would love to have the opportunity of being able to hire these people if they're Page 1482 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Beard, cont'd) •• ••• brojlght up to a standard, coming to this job the same as the people that are now being hired for these jobs. This doesn't mean that they have to be job-t rained, but they have to have a little training and a little knowledge and responsibility so that they can accept these jobs. In many cases it's costing these companies far, far more to bring in people than it would be to hire the Indian-Metis in the north.

In the National Harbour Board at Churchill they bring people from as far away as Prince Albert -- now I just don't happen to know why it's Prince Albert, but I don't think that should be implicated with our friend John. But, 1:hese are good people up in that district and they are, in many cases, Indian-Metis people that have come, but they are a little ahead of ours.

They've accepted their responsibilities, and the National Harbour Board have to pay their way up -- pay their wages while they're com­ ing; feed them and send them back at the end of the season -- and they've certainly indicated to me that they would be ready to take this opportunity of hiring these people if they could ac­ cept a job and responsibility at the same time. It's been tried but to date it hasn't worked out for these larger companies.

I think that at this time I would like to again stress the committee set up to look after the Indian-Metis population in northern Manitoba, and looked after through funds from the provincial-federal authorities. While I recognize the fact that we've got to keep the boy on the farm, I don't particularly feel that we should keep these Indian people on the reservation. I think we should encourage, if possible, to have them move off the reservation; to move closer to the rail centres, closer to highways, places where we can communicate with them and assist them.

We must give these people, and particularly the young people, a chance to grow up in a modern town. They must become accustomed to modern living without having to go outside and suffer the embarrassment of unfamiliar surroundings and the inferior complex that is born out of the conditions as they now exist. These people when they come to a town today they have to not only learn a job, they have to learn to speak English, but they also have to learn how to live under modern living conditions as we feel they should be living.

Now as far as the Leader of the NDP's request for information on the eastern papers' publicity on our northern Manitoba Indian situation, I do feel that certainly some of these pro­ blems exist, but first we must consider that the Indian-Metis people were always known to be good storytellers, and when you come to them for a story, they'll give you a good story, a darn good story, and I suggest that we must keep in mind that a can of sardines makes a good story. But these people do have problems.

Their way of life is so much different that we just don't understand the people, their thoughts, and I'm sure that you will agree with me that we can't understand each other so possibly they have a great deal of trouble in understanding just what we are trying to do for them, and when we don't know ourselves I don't know how we expect them to fathom us,, but I think we must impress upon our government that if they would go to these people and find out what they want to do and how they want to do it, and let's see if we can't do it this way rather than telling them what to do and when to do it. Thank you. MR .

CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, I have found it a thrilling experience listening to the Honourable Member for Churchill. I must admit that when he first started to speak I thought he was going to speak in terms of looking down. Somehow I had that impression, but that righted itself very quickly, and I saw that here was a man that had an appreciation of the problem and an appreciation of the people about whom he spoke, and I haven't enough exper­ ience to realize it but I suspect that it takes courage to stand up and speak on that side of the House the way he did.

Not that he was so critical, but that he indicated that there was much to be done, and his suggestions were in a positive manner • I think it was most refreshing, and I for one was very happy that I was here to hear this honest portrayal of the view that he has of life as it exists on the reservation and in the north amongst a group of people who are really an economic group, which is the problem that we must deal with.

The history he dealt with is an indication that it is the encroachment on the lands of the westerner that we from east of here have come in and started to -- not started to but did actually take away and create the problem which we did. The only cause for a smile that I had was when he said tl:iat they're not accustomed to western ways.

I think our trouble is we're trying to impose our eastern ways on the western Indian, and the point made by the Honourable Member from Churchill as to a difference in values was also made well by him, because I think he, too, wonders whether our values are really the values that are wor1:h passing on to April 22nd, 1963 Page 1483

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) ••••• others, and I must think in terms of the economic values that we set so high, the material things being so important, something that the free enterprise system has made us attempt to appreciate. It may well be that the values of laziness are also the. values of reflection and of thinking of the greater things in life, which ought not to be .tied to material things that we find so important here, and therefore I think that the suggestion of self-help, which was made by the Honourable Member for Churchill, is the most important.

Trying to impose ideas of our civilization -- and I'm thinking of an urban type of civilization - on people who are not accustomed to think in those terms is a ridiculous situation, and · when we know of the attempts of Peace Corps work amongst underdeveloped people in under­ developed countries - there has been discussion now' in the United States that possibly what they need are internal Peace Corps people in United States to go and live in the slums of the United States in order to work with and live with the people who need this guidance.

I wonder whether it wouldn't be a good idea to set up a sort of a Peace Corps here where we find in our summ er months, the last few years especially, that jobs are not too readily available for university students, and what a wonderful thing it would be if there could be a recruitment amongst university students to go up in the summer months and to give of their time to live with and work with the people who could benefit from the knowledge and the living habits of such a group of Peace Corps people, and I think that one need only recall that series of articles which I think was a ''high" in journalistic reporting that appeared in the Tribune -- I'm pretty sure it was Jim Shilliday who wrote them -- who portrayed so well the life of the Indian and the Metis in those parts of the northern country where they don!t know from one day to the next what they will have to live on, and often don't care to worry about to­ morrow but live for the present; so that the importan t thing really is to work with, and not just teach from ab ove down, but work with and attempt to encourage, that anything that can be done in terms of.co-operative work -- and there was some discussion about setting up co­ operatives in those areas with the groups of people that find themselves there -- I think is important, and therefore I would like to hear more about the government's plans in attempt­ ing to work out a plan that has some future in it and that has some planning of a long-range type to work along and to work with the Federal Government.

Now I think that what the honourable member pointed out about the difference in juris­ diction is very important, and that there has to be an attempt made 1D co-ordinate the work. I had a note here to refer to The Social Allowances Act which makes some reference to public aids to lri.dians on reservations relating to The Child Welfare Act, and I'm wondering just. what is being done. ·Has the Federal Government agreed to enter into an agreement with the Provincial Government to work this thing out, or has the Provincial Government done any­ thing about a joint agreement along those lines?

I hope the Honourable Minister will be able to deal with that aspect of the problem which was raised by the Honourable Member for Churchill. Now a couple of other matters dealing with this item, Mr. Chairman. I want to just touch briefly on a matter which has been discussed already by the Leader of our group in re­ lating to the problems of the medically indigent.

While he was speaking I was looking at a supplementary submission that I have here, made to the Royal Commission on Health Services by the Community Welfare Planning Council just a year ago last month, wherein they point out, dealing with medically indigent people who are self-supporting but cannot handle their medical problems, and they state that although there can be no really accurate statistics, yet there is an indication by a report made by Mr. C.L.

Barber in 1961 to the Manitoba Medical Associa­ tion, that in his opinion approximately 25 percent of all families and 22 percent of all single persons would need some subsidy in meeting the costs of medical care. And this brief con­ sists of some ten pages. of case histories, indicating the large number of problems that exist with people who are not in need of financial aid for their living, but are in the case of their medical requirements, inclusive of drugs, and this is something that I think we have to hear about as a program for the future. I'd also like, Mr.

Chairman, to hear what is happening in connection with what I be­ lieve is the first attempt to really co-ordinate the welfare work, and that is the plans for the Salter-Jarvis area. The previous Minister of Welfare participated in an attempt to organize a group to work together in the Salter-Jarvis redevelopment area with the purpose of a Page 1484 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Cherniack, cont'd) ••••• multi-service integrated welfare service and a related commun­ ity development service, and I bring it up under this item because it seems to relate to two dif­ ferent sections of the estimates, wherein an attempt is being made to co-ordinate the work of the different bodies or the different organizations or government agencies which together could create a comprehensive service to the community.

I notice that it was expected that they will continue working on the organization committee to get this project into effect on April 1st, 1963, so that we should be able to hear a progress report on just what has been done, what is being. done, and what is planned to be done by this group, because I think it's a vitally impor­ tant project since it is, as I believe, the first of its type to be attempted and one v.h ich may give a blueprint for the future in other areas in this province. So, I'm looking forward to hearing from the Minister in this respect as well. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, the subject that I want to speak about will probably be rather new, or what I want to say at least will be new to the Minister, because I'm sure if he knew about this he would have rectified this a long time ago. I'm referring to the field of adoption. Now we know that there are many, many children who need a home-- a good home -- and unfortunately, there aren't enough people ready to oblige. I know of three cases lately that are kind of disillusioned after what they have to go through to adopt children.

One couple already has two children �- adopted children -- and they've been waiting for over six months to get another one. They've said that they would take anything, any racial origin, any colour -- it doesn't matter to them as long as they get somebody soon. Now there are two other cases -- this case I know -- there are two other cases that feel that they've been delayed, one of them for over two years, without giving any reason. Now what is a little worse than this is what these people are subjected to, the questioning, apparently -- the questions that they are asked.

Now, I can understand that you have to take precautions before you let an orphan into a new home and I certainly agree with this way of thinking.

I understand that a medical exami­ nation is a very important thing, but those people, those three cases -- and I, myself, after hearing that feel that it is going a little too far when the social workers come in and ask the kind of questions that they've been asking, when they start· asking about sex habits, about the frequency of sexual intercourse· and so on, to prospective parents -- and when these young social workers around 20 and 22 --I think that it's about time the Minister looked into this.

There is no reason why these people should be subjected to this and this is actually being done in this department. I have the words of three different couples. Some of them a little more experienced would not give the answer as readily as was expected, but nevertheless they brought this to my attention. They feel that this is certainly not warranted. They feel that there is no reason for this.

A medical examination they don't mind, and they don't mind an­ swering some questions from doctors sometimes, but then when there's a 20, 22-year old social worker that's coming around with those kind of questions they feel that this is goillg too far. I think that it would be well if the Minister would check into this, and I see no reason why there should be so m:uch delay, so much red tape when we are told that there are so many children that are just begging for love from parents , even if they're adopted parents.

While I'm on my feet I am disappointed that the Honourable Minister did not say more about this Physical Fitness Program. I hope that this will come up, that he'll have more to say. I kriow that it is rather new, and especially that it's new for him, this department. I hope that we will have something because we were far behind. We receive this help from the Federal Government and I hope that we'll start a real good program, especially now that it has been announced that we will host the Pan American Games. I think that we'll not go blindly or wildly into this.

I, for one, think that the students of Winnipeg-- of Metro Winnipeg-- might suff er if high school football is forced to close because of lack of a field. I think that this might be considered with some of the permanent buildings that have to be erected, or per­ manent facilities that will have to be erected for the Pan American Games, and I think that this department through its program of fitness definitely should look into the future of high school football here in Metro Winnipeg.

I think it is a very important point and these students will be that much poorer if they're not given a chance to play football to form their character while they are forming their intelligence and so on. I wish that the Minister will have a look at that before the next season. Thank you. MR . A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, ••• •• •• say a few words? In the April 22nd, 1963 Page 1485

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) ••••• provincial constituency of Seven Oaks is situated the only privately· financed senior citizen development in the whole of Canada. This.was built some few years ago along with the Legion Gardens and the one started by United Church shortly after that -- built by a man who came to this country and wanted to do something for the country that had been so good to him , and he privately financed the building of this senior citizen development in West Kildonan.

The rent at the time that this was opened was $45.00, Now the rent has been in­ creased to $52.50 and I would like to give the reasons. First of all through local improvements and the general rise in taxes this has been made necessary in order to guarantee the promoter his five percent under the terms of the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. It seems to me, Mr.

Chairman, this is one time when the government doesn't support private enterprise, because under the terms of The Elderly Persons Housing Act any other organization, such as a Church or a Legion or a Kiwanis Club, can receive this Elderly Persons Housing grant. It seems to me that just because old people -- or elderly people -- are living in one area, it shouldn't make it necessary for them to pay more in the way of rent. And I don't know how far this can go.

It seems to m� that if this individual can't keep the rents down where they should be in comparison with the other areas of the city, then surely it's time for the government to take a look at it and take it over, because it seems a sad state of affairs when an individual did something with the finest of motives only to find that he cannot qualify for this grant -- and I think that the government should give consideration in many areas to take over these projects for the elderly. MR . J.M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I have a few thoughts and questions that I would like to bring out at this time.

First of all, I would like to express my appreciation for the tour that was conducted last fall where we went up north as members of this House, and saw firsthand the conditions under which the people live out there, and also the Indians and in what conditions they do live. I think it was of great value. Personally, in seeing the conditions at Churchill itself I just wondered how those people existed through a winter in the shacks that they used up there. And I am still amazed how they survive the cold winter -- the winters that we do have in Manitoba.

I would like to know just what these people do receive in the way of assistance or welfare. I noticed from the Honourable Member for Churchill when he spoke that there is a difference between the Indian and the Metis, and that one receives a grant

whereas the other does not from the Federal Government, and I would like to know just what assistance is being given to these Metis up in the north. Certainly it is a very slow program in transforming, or converting these people to our way of life, if it ever can be done, and I doubt whether they would -- probably wouldn't even want to conform to our way of life -- so that this will take years and years to accomplish. Then I would also like ,to hear from the Minister what the difference is in cost of caring for a welfare patient in the rural parts of the province as compared to the urban centre.

I'm sure there must be quite a difference in the amount that is being spent, and I would like to know what the average difference would amount to roughly; and also in connection with this whether there is a migration to the urban centres from the rural parts because of getting better accom­ modation and better care in the cities. After all, that's where they have the conveniences and where th ey're readily available.

I also feel that in rural parts there is some resentment on the part of older people when they are being questioned by these young welfare workers on their habits and on their way of life quite intimately, so that I feel there is a certain amount of resentment, and I think this matter could probably be centralized somewhat so that we would have officers, or at least workers out in the rural parts stationed at various points, so that they would be more accus­ tomed to these people when they did come around and not be completely strange.

Then -- I think I mentioned this to the Honourable Minister a few days ago -- I would like to get a copy of the regulations under The Social Allowances Act. I know these no doubt have been appearing in the Gazettes, but I would like to have a copy if they are up-to-date, so that I could check them for my own personal use. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 1 passed. The Minister ..... MR. CARROLL: Well, perhaps I should answer those questions that relate to the first item here, and if you don't mind, possibly deal with the ones dealing with social allowance, and fitness and amateur sport at a later date.

To begin with, the Member for Gladstone is still Page 1486 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Carron, cont'd) •••• • very much concerned about nursing homes, and what the govern­ ment's policy is with respect to these. I think it's fair to say that we're working on this pro­ blem of nursing homes. The Minister of Health, I think, has made a very full statement on it when he was dealing with the question, and we're working with this problem from both ends. To begin with, under the Hospital Services Plan we've built something like 500 new extended treatment beds, and at the other end of the scale we 're working on elderly persons housing projects·.

And this area in the centre and what the role of nursing homes will play in it is the area where there's still some doubt as to how this should be treated. What is the responsibil­ ity of the Hospital Services Commission? What is the responsibility of the individuals in this field?

This is the reason why we've set up the Care Service Facility, which is a new organ­ ization jointly sponsored by Health and Welfare, which will be looking into this whole area of standards, of placements, and things of this kind, and we are working on the problem, and I think with respect to the Member for Gladstone we're conscious of his problem there and I believe the Department have offered to assist him and meet with his group at any time to see whether there is a role there for the province to play.

With respect to the comments of the Minister of Health when he mentioned this some years ago, I think he referred to hospital type facilities, but I think perhaps he intended to say hostel type facilities rather than hospital type, and it may have been a misunderstanding. Possibly the girl who transcribes made an error in transcription.

With respect to the convalescent home that hit the newspaper a few weeks ago, I think a careful reading of that news story, although it is not accurate, does indicate that the con­ valescent home is still in discussion with the government about the possibility of continuing in business. It's our hope that we may be able to do something for them to the end that they may stay in business after the end of this particular year.

I was asked how many nursing ho'mes there are available in Manitoba, and I think pro­ bably he was referring to proprietary nursing homes, but I'm not sure of that, and the only figures that I have available to me are ones that I dug out of my books here at the time when he was talking; and it looks like in the Metro area we have four over 100-bed capacity, we have 22 under 100-bed capacity, and in rural Manitoba we have 41 nursing homes and this in­ cludes not only private but charitable and religious as well.

So this is the total number as I had available to me, and I could of course list the names of those homes if ti:B honourable member would like that further information. The Member for Inkster was concerned about the Indian problem and what we were doing about the training of our Indians. I think this, of course, is something that we're very conscious of. We know something will have to take place if these people are to integrate into our society. They've got to be brought along in the same way as other Manitobans are, given the same kind of background in trades and technical skills as white children.

And this, I think, was one of the factors which influenced the statement which was made in the Speech from the Throne and made by the Minister of Health in ann ouncing that a technical school would be built at The Pas, because we all know that The Pas certainly doesn't have sufficient people to sup­ port a school of that kind. It's our hope that we'll draw people from throughout the north to come in and take advantage of that technical training facility there; and this we hope will go a long way in preparing these people to take their place in society.

Some suggestion as to what should be done, by the Member for Inkster as well, with single men living in dilapidated rooming houses.

I think that really we as a government haven •t got the responsibility to force those people out of accommodation that they've gone into voluntarily and presumably which many of them are quite happy with, because we do have available elderly persons housing projects in Winnipeg at the present time where I understand there are vacancies for people, and I would think that if people desired to move from this kind of accommodation, if facilities are not available now there are additional facilities becoming available which perhaps they could move into at some time in the future.

With respect to the grants for the Golden Age Club, I don't know really whether --we certainly haven't got a program at the present time, unless it might be under the Fitness and Amateur Sport. Possibly if they were to organize some kind of a tiddly-winks club or some­ thing, I don't know whether that would qualify or not, but certainly some activity group for elderly people could be organized --maybe shuffleboard, maybe something E!lse. This might April 22nd, 1963 Page 1487

(Mr. Carrell, cont'd) •• •• • qualify for some kind of a small grant which would assist them in the very vaiuable work which I believe that they are doing from the description which has been given by the Member for Inkster. · Tlie Leader of the NDP -- oh yes. Mentioning the Toronto papers, the story on Nelson Hou8e; .I believe the Member for Churchill has made a statement with respect to this. I think the kiiidest thing that can be said about that news story is that it was distorted.

I believe that those of you who had an opportunity to view the CBC presentation on conditions in Nelson House would get a much better picture of actual living conditions in the community of Nelson House. i ditb:i.it see the series of two programs on this, but I did see the first one, and I think that you will all agree that the people that. we saw looked healthy, according to the statement of the nurse, a very capable young lady just fresh from Paris, I think, a year or two ago, who says that the state of health of the people in that community was excellent, quite surprised that the young people should play outdoors often ill-clad, without any effects of chest conditions and things of that kind.

I think it was a wonderful story. It did talk, of course, of privations. We recognize that there are difficulties up there. We don't want to paint a picture different from what it actuiill.y is. I think the most eloquent statement on the subject was made by the Chief himself, who said, "We aren't starving for food; we're starving for jobs," and I believe that this is the crux of the situation there, as well as some difficulties in daily life as well.

I really don't know whether I heard the Leader of the NDP correctly or not when he sug­ gested that we should send the Indians "back to the bush" and should provide industry for them in those areas. Now if this is what he said-- this is certainly what I took from his comments, that we should not encourage these people to stay around the big cities; we should send them back home; let them take their skills with them. MR . PAULLEY: ••••••••• Mr. Chairman, whether I should put the Minister right in what I meant now, or shall I wait till he 1 s •• •• • MR . CARROLL: It isn't what you meant, it's what you said. MR .

PAULLEY: ••••••• I can only ••••• MR . CARROLL: Possibly you will then ••••• MR. PAULLEY: What I said in effect-- maybe my language wasn't that that the Minis­ ter could absorb at the time. What I said in effect was this, that in my opinion it was no solu­ tion to the problem of the Indian and the Metis to bring them in here and train them and leave them practically on their own, or at the mercy of many employers that are prepared to take advantage of them.

But I suggested it would be far better that having trained them, that they would be able to take the knowledge of their skills back into their own areas in order to train others in their area, so that in the process they were all lifted up, because -- my inference at this time, Mr.

Chairman, and I think that the Member for Churchill implied something similar, that there is no sense in my opinion of simply bringing a few young men and women from the Indian and Metis centres into the City of Winnipeg and leaving them; that if we don't attempt through education of these young men and women to have them go back into their com­ munal areas to assist in elevating the whole Commission, that we're not really achieving any­ thing. I also mention, Mr.

Chairman-- the Honourable Member for Churchill emphasized it even possibly a little bit more clearly than I -- simply to take a young boy or a young girl from the reservation or the community and take them into school, teach them in that school a smat­ tering of reading and writing and arithmetic, a smattering of the English language, and then send them back to their community, and the· community is still in the selfsame condition as the youngster left, we're not achieving anything. Now this is what i meant, whether I said it quite as specifically when I was speaking or not. Maybe the Minister has a point.

But what I meant was that there is no sense, in my opinion, of simply bringing individuals, young men and women, in from the community into the likes of the City of Winnipeg, teaching them needle trades, for instance --I suggest that in respect of needle trades wouldn't it be far better to have the young men and women that come in from the Indian and Metis centre, into Winnipeg or some area where they learn needlework-- wouldn't it be far better for them, having been trained, to go back into their communal centre, and even if it was necessary for the govern- . ment to set up factories -- or some semblance of factories -- in these communal areas so that the young men and women who have been trained may pass on the benefits of their educa­ tion to the community so that there was an uplifting of the whole community.

Now whether I Page 1488 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd) •• •• • said it exactly like this or not I'm not going to argue with the Minister until I see Hansard, but this, Mr. Chairman, is the thought behind what I was saying. MR. CARROLL: It's a much better statement than his first one, I'll give him credit for that, Mr. Chairman, because he did talk around it pretty well, but really the only further comment I wanted to make was that I find it hard to believe that there's any justification in try­ ing to establish industries in an area where there's no economic justification for those indus­ tries.

You're merely trying to perpetuate possibly the "reserve system" or whatever we want to call it, We're setting them up and it's going to be a continuing welfare state. I think the -­ well, this sort of flies in the face of the experts who are recommending against a perpetuation of the reserve system, and to put a subsidized industry in there merely perpetuates a bad situation if it has to be continually subsidized.

Let's encourage the kind of industry that will grow naturally in those areas, that the area can justify in itself, and I think that's really the line of approach that we would prefer to follow, that I think there is more economic justifica­ tion for.

I agree with the Honourable Leader of the NDP when he says "let's look after these people when they get into the big cities" because I think in many cases they do require special help beyond the technical training stage, and this is what we hope to provide through our Friend­ ship Centres, and that's one of the justifications for our contribution and support of that facility here in Winnipeg, and it's a continuing thing, to try and help these people and possibly a hand­ holding operation during their initial experiences in the big city.

Now I think there was some suggestion that John Lagasse does not have a free hand. If the Leader of the NDP is suggesting that he doesn't have a blank cheque I would agree th3.t pro­ bably that's right.

He doesn't have a blank cheque, but I think he'll also agree that in looking at the work of this particular branch and the growth in the estimates as they refer to this par­ ticular branch, you '11 notice substantial increases in each year since community development service started, and you will recall it was started on an experimental basis and we're at the present time trying to evaluate the results that we have had from the community development work. I think we'll all agree that we're happy that we have achieved some concrete results, and where do we go from here?

We could continue, I suppose, expanding, but maybe there are other areas and other approaches to explore and these are the kind of thirigs that we want to do. Another thing-- and this was something that the Member for Churchill touched on-­ was the question of, it should be one government approach rather than two.

At the moment I think we're not at all sure of where the Federal Government hope to go in the field of this In­ dian and Metis community development work, because we know that they set up one Community Development Officer; we .know they set up one Placement Officer in the Province of Manitoba; and we want to make sure that we have a co-ordinated approach and we don't want to get too far ahead of them and I think probably we're working toward the right direction in the field of community development work. Now the Member for Seven Oaks is talking about a privately-sponsored elderly persons' housing project.

As !.understand from what he said, it sounds like a limited dividend housing project. He obviously started early in the game. I'm not sure whether we can be of any help in that situation or not. I rather doubt it at the moment, but I think we'd be prepared to dis­ cuss the particular case with him at some time and find out if anything is possible.

We know that every effort is made in our own housing projects to keep these rentals down within the reach of the people who are using the facilities; and the rentals as I understand them, we try to get them as close as possible to $40. 00 a month for the single housing units and $50. 00 a month for tile double accommodation. With respect to the member for Rhineland who is asking about how much welfare is re­ ceived by Indian and Metis, I really can't answer about the Department of Indian Affairs, but Metis receives the same scale of grants as is available to other Manitobans.

The cost between the rural and city scale. I believe the scale is identically the same with the exception of the . rental allowance and it's the actual cost of the rent paid up to a cer­ tain maximum figure , and I'd be pleased to furnish the detail with respect to our regulations under The Social Allowances Act so that he might be able to have that information directly at hand. Mr. Chairman, I regret I've gone beyond what I intended to do because I answered a question here on social allowances and that doesn't come up until the next it�m, so I'm sorry. April 22nd, 1963 Page 1489

(Mr. Carroll, cont'd.) •••• I apologize for it and ask if there are any further questions un­ der Item No. 1. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has prompted me to say a few more words and I know that the Honourable Member for Lake side will regret this very much, but nonetheless --pardon ? MR. CAMPBELL: I'll have a lot of company too. MR . PAULLEY: Yes, I don't imagine that you're incorrect in that at all, but I do hope that I have a little company myself in what I'm going to say in reply to the Minister.

I appre­ ciate very much the fact that the Minister has said to me that surely we do not want to continue the reservation type of community that we have insofar as the Indian and Metis is concerned in - Manitoba. I don •t want this at all. I don't propose to be an expert at all on the problem of the Indian and Metis, but I do know this, Mr.

Chairman, that more and more people who are ex­ perts are coming to the conclusion that what the Indian and the Metis require is self-help and not the type of help that the Minister of Welfare is suggesting, namely that of bringing young men and women in to our urban centres and helping them out.

Quite the reverse is the direc­ tion as I read the experts today --the newer experts --that the exact reverse is what is be­ ing suggested today; that we should train capable young men and women and having trained them have them go back into their centres, not to perpetuate ghetto type of systems and settlements that we have at the present time, but so that they can make use of the knowledge that they have acquired for the benefit of the whole of the community.

Now if I recall what the Minister said correctly, he is supporting the system that we have been following of bringing in a few, allowing them to come in to our urban centres and being exploited, and I say, Mr. Chairman, that it's regrettable that they are being exploited in our Greater Winnipeg area in large measure, and surely. to goodness the Minister of Wel­ fare is not condoning this practice. Surely to goodness it is a better system, or a better ap­ proach, to have these young men and women learn useful occupations and take them back into their area. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Industry and Commerce and others in this Legis­ lature have told us of the necessity of diversification of industry. Every mayor and reeve of every municipality in the Province of Manitoba has made appeals for some industry in their location in order to help out the people in their area. This, I suggest Mr. Chairman, is what the Minister of Welfare should be doing, although I don't really think it should be done by the Minister of Welfare.

I think it should be done by the Minister of Industry because, as I have stated before in this House, that when we're dealing with the problem of the Indian and Metis we continually consider it as solely a welfare problem and this, to me, is one of the biggest barriers that we have to achieving what we think is the ideal, and that is the integration of the Indian and the Metis into our present modern way of living. E!o I suggest to the Minister: For­ get about bringing young men and women in here to our MTI, to our schools, and leaving them for the exploitation, as I say, of many employers in our urban area.

Teach them; have the Ministry of Industry and Commerce co-operate to establish in these communal centres --let's not think of them �s reservations; let's think of them in the same line as we do rural communi­ ties insofar as industry is concerned --to provide the wherewithal so that the people in the community can use of their talents to add to the productive capacity of our province, and until we have this approach, until we get away from the approach, I suggest, of the Minister of Wel­ fare, as he stated in this House, we're not going to achieve anything insofar as the Indian and the Metis is concerned.

We're just deferring positive action. Now he mentioned the fact of Mr. Lagasse. I paid a tribute to this gentleman, I think, while I was speaking, and I still say to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, despite the fact that there has been some increases in expenditures, in community development --which in effect encom­ passes a multitude of developments --I still say that there is not suff icient latitude being al­ lowed to the author of the report that we received here I believe in 1957 on the ancestry of the Indian and the Metis and its accompanying book. I would like to ask the Minister --and again, Mr.

Chairman, I will qualify this qiestion to my honourable friend because of the fact that he has just taken over the post --I would ask the Government how many of the recommendations of the report that we received respecting the Indian and the Metis have been adopted? And I would suggest without having the report or the progress report before me that very, very few of the recommendations of that report have been adopted. Page 1490 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) •• •• And I want to say this , too, to the Minister. We're talking of co-ope rative development among the Indian and the Metis. I say to the Minister that in many instances that have been brought to my attention insofar as co-opera tive development in the Indian and Metis centre, the development has taken place from the top down instead of from the grassroots , as we call it, upwards.

But many of the co-ope rative developments that the Minister -- either the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Welfare -- refers to, insofar as community development with our mdian and the Metis, are imposed from the top, and there's very little participation by the people concerned if the information that I have been receiving, Mr. Chairman, is correct.

For I have been told that in some so-called co-ops that have been set up in some of the reservation areas , that the people in these areas cannot receive credit in their co-o ps, but if they go just outside the borderlines of their reservations or areas they can receive all the credit they want with the accompanying penalties for future repayment.

I have had complaint after complaint drawn to my attention that it's harder for an Indian or a Metis in the community area in which these so-called co-ops are established, that it's· far harder for them even to receive from the community or co-opera tive development in their own area than it is on the outside . I have been told that they receive less consideration in the so-called co-ops that are supposedly their own, than they do from general stores and the likes from the outside. And I suggest that I want to hear from the Minister on this, because I suggest, Mr .

Chairman, that if the information that I am being given is correct then we're not mak:i.Ii.g any advance at all. These are the problems . The Indian and the Metis , I suggest, is not much different from any other :i.Ii.dividual. We have been foist:i.Ii.g over the generations , upon them . Welfare was doing little or noth:i.Ii.g to teach them self-help . I think, Mr . Chairm an, ·this was dramati­ cally drawn to the attention of the citizens of Manitoba iii. connection with Thompson.

I have here before me a letter or two deal:i.Ii.g with the trouble at Thompson, where the Indian and the Metis -- and I agree with the Honourable Member for Churchill that we should treat them as one rather than try to differentiate between the two -- where the Indian and the Metis iii. Thomp­ son -- Indians -from Norway House and the Metis from the surround:i.Ii.g areas -- attempted to find work at Thompson, and they had a struggle. And I don't know what the situation is there today. I do know this though, Mr.

Chairman, according to press reports , that the government opposite solved the problem temporarily just prior to the by-election in Churchill by providing a job clear:i.Ii.g brush on the road to Thompson, and this appeared to be satisfactory for the time being. But I would like to know from the Minister first hand, what is the situation today? Has this job that was provided of cleaning out brush for a few miles been completed? It was a sat­ isfactory, apparently, short-term effort, but what is the situation today?

I would ask the Min­ ister how many jobs have been provided at Inco for those who were temporarily engaged in clearing the brush on the road to Thompson. One other point that I wish to raise at this time , too, now we're dealing with the whole question -- and I cannot blame my honourable friend, the present Minister of Welfare for this -- but there was an open letter , Mr .

Chairman, to the governments of Canada and the Province of Manitoba sent out over the signature of a gentleman by the name of Valentine, the represen­ tative of the United Steelworkers of America at Thompson, which listed a few recommendations of what might be considered as courses of action for the federal and prov:i.Ii.cial governments to take; and I think that this individual, and also his trade union, were sincere in their efforts to assist the Indian and the Metis in the Thompson area in being assimilated, in being integrated into the community. And yet, Mr.

Chairm an, again I am not condemning the present Minister -- and yet, I saw news reports condemning as being interfering the activities of Labour in the interests of the Indian and the Metis at Thompson . I must say, Mr . Chairman, now that this matter is be:i.Ii.g given a more thorough airing than I thought it was, that I resent this very, very much; that Labour and its trade union organizations in Thompson were not made part and par­ cel of a committee set up to look into the problem of the Indian and the Metis in the north.

So I want to say and re-emphas ize to my honourable friend the Minister, it's a vastly greater prob­ lem than he is making out in this House tonight. I want to re-emphas ize once again, it's no longer good enough to think that because we're training a few individuals in our urban commun-' ities that we're travelling along the road to assisting in this problem; and on this note, Mr. April 22nd, 1963 Page 1491

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd.) •••• Chairman, I want to read just one paragraph of this open letter to the governments of Canada and the Province of Manitoba by the representative of the United Steelworkers of Canada, and he says this: "The educational facilities themselves are good and the Indian children are introduced to a way of life far superior to what they have known before. Obviously this education instills in them a desire for this way of life. But when their education is completed they return to the same settlement from which they came.

They find. their envir­ onment has not changed one bit, and they are faced with the same hunger, oppression and deso­ lation as before. The only thing added is a longing for something better -- the something bet- . tar they envisioned while acquiring an education. They were denied the opportunity of acquir- ing manual skills and trades that would enable them to take their place in industry where they could become gainfully employed and self-supporting. " This is the missing link. And here they are talking of -- in the smaller areas, where there is no provision for training their skills, and I, Mr •.

Chairman, am adding to this that having acquired skills there should be provisions in their community for the development of them, not only for themselves, but for their whole community settlement. And this, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, is a more proper and reasonable line to take, that it is not a question of welfare. It is a question of self-help; and given self­ help on a proper basis the problem will be overcome.

I'm not fooled to think that it will be overcome overnight, but I think in a process of self-help and self-education we can achieve much, so that in a generation or two no one will be standing in this House and saying, "Let us consider the welfare of the Indian and the Metis," because they will become truly what they were before the white man made them what they are -- a great nation, and part of this great Canada of ours. MR . CARROLL: Mr .

Chairman, I think if the honourable member who just spoke hadn't opened his mouth this afternoon and then put his foot into it, we wouldn't have had to spend an hour tonight trying to listen to him wiggle his way out of a statement which he made this after­ noon, which was that Indians who come out, take employment in Winnipeg and are not success­ ful, should be sent back to the b!lsh •••••• MR . PAULLEY: •• ••• ••• I never said anything of the sort. MR . CARROLL: You had your turn. You had your turn. I think if he'd read Mr . Val­ entine's letter more carefully, Mr.

Valentine would have told him in that letter that it's a mis­ take to have Indian children come out to get an education and to go back into the same environ­ ment. They should be trained. They should get employment where employment is and not where employment isn't, because there's no sense training a skilled craftsman and sending him back to Nelson House or to God's Lake or Oxford House, where there isn't any employment and there will likely never be the kind of employment for which that individual was trained. I really fail to understand how he could have been so confused about this whole issue.

With respect to the efforts which are being made to help Indians in their own communi­ ties and Metis. in these under-developed communities, he should know that every effort is being made by our community development officers to exploit local opportunities. This is one of their prime responsibilities , to go in and discuss with the people their local problems, to find out what itis that they want and to help them find ways to achieve these goals that they may have, and to help them to develop what resources there are in these areas and to build their standard of living locally.

But we can •t begin to employ the 50 , 000 Indians and Metis that we've got in northern Manitoba-- in northern Manitoba-- in their own, their present environment. A great many of these young people are going to have to come out and take their place side by side with others where employment opportunities will be developing in the future. And this is the only answer to the problem.

It doesn't mean we can't do a great deal in those areas, and we're going to, but I think the economics of industry today rule out the kind of suggestion that my friend is making, that we should go up to God's Lake and develop a needle trades industry when the industry that we have here in Manitoba today is fighting for its very life because of the economics of the trade, because there are other countries who are producing textiles may­ be more cheaply, and it's a whole question of the economics of production in these areas.

Sure we're going to help them -- in their own areas to develop employment opportunities that are native to that area and that can be developed in those areas, and to try to build the resources and not try to build on a foundation which isn't economic and which will require the permanent pumping of welfare to sustain those communities as has happened in the past and is happening Page 1492 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Carron , con t'd. ) •••• to some extent today. MR . EVANS: •••••••• CNR upholstery job up there. MR . CARROLL: . That would be a good place for some of the people that work in it, maybe -- they'd know a great deal more about Indians and Metis by the time they came back. The whole philosophy of this program is to build from the bottom up and not to thrust upon these people ideas from the top; and this is one of the philosophies, we think, that the Indian Affairs have developed to too large an extent.

They've been putting their ideas , placing their ideas in guiding the Indians in their own communities, and we think that this has been the wrong kind of philosophy, because it hasn't led to the development of resourcefulness in the managjng of their affairs as those people have in living off the land in the kind of resourcefulness we know they have in othe'r ways . And this we think is wrong, and this is one of the reasons why we're build­ ing from the bottom up and trying to encourage the development of those resources . You talk about "follow-up" . Sure you've got to have follow-up .

And in my remarks this afternoon I said one of the things that we're trying to do in co-operation with the Sanatorium Board and Indian Affairs is a job placement service in which we give these people pre-employment training in whatever kind of training they need. Place them and then go back and follow up , and make sure that they are getting along all right, and help them to solve their problems.

In Thompson -- a friend was asking "what's happening in Thompson?" Well, I'm happy to say that the road to Thompson has been completed, and another "make work" project in that area, a landing strip, was developed at the same. time , to give them some temporary relief be­ cause of the problem which they have. But this doesn't solve their permanent problem. It doesn't. No . And what did we do :? We established a Community Development Officer in Thomp­ son. And what's his responsibility? You know what it is ?

It's to help place Indians in Thomp­ son, at INCO and to help follow up and make sure that their social problems are taken care of; help them to develop and become useful citizens in that area. This is the kind of follow-up that we're doing, not the kind of thing that you're suggesting. I'd like to say that there are 70 Ind­ ians , persons of Indian ancestry in Thompson at the present time -- 35 adults and 35 children, equally divided -- and these people are forming a social club and things of that kind. But here is the kind of follow-up service we're doing.

We're helping these people and INCO are co-oper­ ating with us . Now they're not going as far as we'd like to see them go, but they are co-operat­ ing. We think this is a step in the right direction, and this is the kind of program that we're trying to develop here . I think maybe that's all I'd better say at the moment, because I understand my friend, the Minister of Agriculture , would like to say a word on co-ops . MR . HUTTON: Mr.

Chairman, I was rather disturbed when my good and honourable friend, the Leader of the NDP, expounded upon the apparent inadequacy of the co-ops to deal with the needs of the Indian and Metis in the community, when he said that they were forced outside of the co-ops because of the fact they couldn't, they got a better deal than their co-ops could give thel!t. This to me indicates a complete lack of comprehension of the principles of co-operation, and the struggle -- let's say it -- the struggle between the co-ops and private enterprise .

The co-op movement amongst the Indian and Metis people in the past three years has been phenomenal, just phenomenal. It's been miraculous the way the Indian and Metis peo­ ple have grasped this principle and have made it work for themselves. It wasn't the govern­ m·ent that made it work. It wasn't some outside power that made it work. The Indian and Metis people made it work, and they've been tremendously successful.

And on this question, this complaint that some of the Indian and Metis people have found traders outside of their own co­ ops to be more generous with them than their own co-operative, why this is the old, old story of the co-op movement in Manitoba, the oldest story one could tell about the struggle of these co-operative movements to become established . And I'd like to relate to you an incident from experience that I had as a young person. My father belonged to the local Pool Elevator.

He was one of those who helped get it established, and I was a young lad and times were hard in the "thirties", and I recall during harvest time one day a chap drove into the field and we stopped and chatted . He offered my Dad three cents a bushel for barley more than he could get at the local Pool Elevator, and my Dad said, "No." No, he wasn't going to take the three cents; he'd rather haul to the local Elevator . And I was just a lad, and this was a pretty fine man. I got to know him pretty well later on in life, and he was indeed a very fine gentlem3!1 that came to call April 22nd, 1963 Page 1493

(Mr. Hutton, cont•d. ) •••• on my Dad that day, and I couldn't understand why, when we were hard up, and three cents a bushel on barley meant a lot in those days when it was only about 20 cents a bushel, why my Dad would refuse to take that three cents . And when this gentleman had driven away I said to my Dad, "That seemed like ,a pretty fair kind of a ma n. " He said: "Yes , he's a very fine man. " A nd I says, "Well , why did you, if he's a fine man and he offer­ ed you three cents a bushel more for that barley than you could get at the local Elevator, why didn't you take it ?

We need the money." And he turned me around and he showed me the Pool Elevator which stood in the distance on the horizon, and he said, "Son, if that Elevator wasn't there, you wouldn't be getting this three cents offered to you. " It's an old, old story.

Naturally when the co-ops start in those northern communities, the traders outside of the co-ops are going to be more generous to the Indian and 'the Metis, and they're going to try and woo them away from their co-ops, and their co-operative endea­ vours, and they're going to offer them all kinds of incentives to win back that trade; and any­ body who knew anything about the co-operative movement, any of the practical diff iculties that these people are going to have to face in establishing them and maintaining them , would recog­ nize that this was a natural development -- or a natural factor in their development.

But the tremendous credit to the Indian and Metis people, and the thing that has impressed me so trem­ endously in the past three years, that they haven't been fooled -- they haven't been fool ed. I think without exception every one of them are doing well. They have been loyal to this organi­ zation that they have started. Yes, we've helped them.

We've given them some guidance; but we didn't go out and say, "You start a co-op." It was the Indian and Metis people who said, "We want to start this co-op." And they appealed to us to give them the help, to give them the charter and so forth , and with the help that was given they have made them work; and rather than it being a discredit to them that they have faced these problems, it's the greatest credit in the world that in spite of these obstacles they have fac ed, in spite of the temptations that have been placed before them to abandon their own endeavours, they have held fast and they have patronized their co-operative institutions, and as a result of that these institutions have flo urished, and rather than to leave the impression that the Indian and Metis co-ops are not serving them well, I want to say emphatically that they are serving them well, that they have been successful , and that credit goes to the Indian and the Metis people.

MR. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Mr. Chairman, may I take five minutes to make some contribution to the debate which has been going on in this regard? I think that it's under­ standable that there should be some theory in the debate inasmuch as we feel a sense of frus­ tration in our effo rts to upgrade the way of living, the standard of living of the Indian and Metis people in our province. But I want to say a few words lest we get the impression here that this problem is unique with us in Manitoba and in Canada.

I think that as a matter of perspective one could say that United Nations, for example, in its studies on under-developed areas and peoples of the under-developed areas , have come to the rough estimate that over one and a quarter billion people living on this earth live in under-developed areas and hense are under­ privileged.

But in the past two decades there has been a trend known as "the revolution of ris­ ing expectations," and I would suppose -- and I think everyone would agree -- that this so­ called revolution in rising expectations has also come home to roost in Manitoba insofar as our Indian and Metis people are concerned .

The United Nations throughout the under-developed areas of the world is trying to assist these economies in reaching the take-off point, after which time the people there can upgrade themselves by self-help , and we're trying to do the same thing here without UN help, but it would seem that similarly to the effo rts of the UN we must here in a more local sense embark on somewhat of a program of technical training, education, as the technical aid program to the UN are doing.

We must have some kind of capital assistance from whatever source it's available, be it private or public, and we must attempt to build up in­ dustry, not only in areas where it exists already but in areas where it doesn't, and I would pre­ sume that part and parcel of the project of COMEF is to try to develop some scale of industry in the north.

That, of course, is not going to be sufficient in itself, and so of course we must accept that in the fut ure it will be necessary as we train these people, to accept the fact that they will come to work in the larger centres and in areas where employment is available, but I think that there's no necessary conflict here when the other point of view is put across , name­ ly that some of the people who acquire technical and technological skills go back to the people Page 1494 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr . Schreyer, cont'd.) •••• where they are living, work among and with them to help in the process of over-all uplifting.

I don't think that it should be questioned too much as to the role of the co-ops among the Indian people, because the co-operative method, if you want to call it that, is indigenous to the Indian way of life or to their particular kind of culture, and to me it seems a most logical dev­ elopment that co-ops should be built, not only for consumer purposes but for producer purposes and I, of course, realize that producer-wise the scope is limited and is in fact declining -­ trapping, fishing and so on. But to the extent that it exists , producer co-ops should be encour­ aged and stimulated as well.

Now the Minister of Agriculture makes the point, and I think it's so true, that sometimes people will attempt to exploit and to divide the Indians amongst them­ selves . In the event that they do establish co-ops it is not unlikely and not surprising that at­ tempts should be made to entice them away , but it would seem that our efforts so far have been successful and are promising of more success.

The Minister of Agriculture makes the point, too, that the co-ops were started amont the Indians practically completely by themselves , and while I certainly admit and have already stated that this development is indigenous to their cul­ ture , nevertheless no-one should subscribe to the view that no leadership or guidance or stimu­ lation should be given by the Department, and I don't think the Minister of Welfare would sug­ gest that that should be so. Certainly in the initial stages some type of leadership is necessary.

In fact, even in the co-ops in the rural part of southern Manitoba it's not uncommon for co-ops to have management contracts with federated and. sometimes the leadership or guidance is over­ ly stringent -- more than the local people want. I was very much impressed with the remarks of the Member for Churchill . It would seem obvious listening to him that he appears to have a firsthand kind of acquaintance with the subject matter .

I was not surprised when he said that teaching was a frustrating, slow process because of the fact that the teachers were not able to develop the initial kind of understanding that is conducive to the learning process , and while .unfortunate, this is not surprising because I don't believe that our teacher training institutions have really provided the teachers that go up there with the right tools. They have to acquire it by the slow painful process of experience, and I would think that the teachers who have been up there a long time are doing a good job.

A lot of our young teachers really aren't prepared for the task. None of our teacher training in­ stitutions -- even the university does not have any kind of course in anthropology. A lot of our young teachers have no idea at all about the outlook, the way of thinking, the way of life, the culture of our Indian people, and not knowing that they are hardly in a position to do a thorough job in the teaching process. Well I just want to conclude now, Mr .

Chairman , by saying that insofar as I am able to draw from the Member from Churchill's remarks , the remarks of the Minister and of my Lead­ er, I would sort of synthesize it by saying that we would all agree that one thing we must avoid is to drift. We will feel frustrated about it for a long time to come yet, I would think, but we have already started the process of laying in goals , the broad outline of facilities and program­ ming.

Now we have to start getting down to specifics which means that we must let our exper­ ienced men in the field have a wide latitude, as my Leader said, and I don't think that anyone could dispute that point either. MR . CHAIR MAN: Item 1p assed •••• MR . BEARD: At this time , Mr. Chairman , I think that I should possibly speak a little on the adverse publicity that International Nickel Company have been given on this project throughout the last few months.

I don't think the International Nickel Company needs me to stand up and defend them, but they apparently feel that this shouldn't be extended so that the publicity doesn't go any further, the adverse publicity; but perhaps if I would give you a few of the facts then we would see it in a different light. The International Nickel Company have definitely employed the Indian and Metis people wherever it was economically possible to use them without a great deal of this type of training that was necessa ry before they were able to take any type of one job.

These people are allow­ ed and encouraged to bring their families in Thompson whenever they have secured jobs and worked there for a matter of two or three months to show that they're interested in continuing living in Thompson. Now the same people who are employed do find it difficult to encourage their own family to move .into Thompson, because of the fact that the mother. and children are April 22nd, 1963 Page 1495

(:Mr. Beard, con t'd.) •••• back on the reserv ation or wherever they happen to be, and it's necessary to -- it takes a lot of urging to bring these people -'--encourage them to give up their home and move into Thompson. They're moving away from friends and relatives and they're iiot tra.ili.ed such as we are to move from one community to another or from one town to another. They'll move together but not separately.

But I would like to state that any time these people are working they are able to move into a suite in Thompson provided and guaranteed by the In­ ternational Nickel Company, or they can move into a rental house, on a guaranteed rental basis by the International Nickel Company, and these people can move their families in whenever they become established with the Company. They don't need any special type of training to gain a job with the Company. The Company just asks them to go out to The Pas and take the same tests -- medical tests , etcetera -- that everybody else has to take.

Now I understand that the government has made headway with bargaining with the Com­ pany so that they may apply for these positions in the townsite itself now. They don't have to go to The Pas , except to go through the regular channels after they have indicated that they could have a job. Now this is as I understand the position is now. The community development offi cer is there to assist these people to come to Thompson; to apply for the job. They will as­ sist them in every way possible .

If they don't get the job then they are assisted to get back to wherever they come from ; but these people do have to be able to pretty well speak a certain amount of English, or understand a certain amount of English and prefer ably to have worked somewhere else for a little while. We must remember that companies like the International Nickel Company have not got the technical help to train people, to give them the schooling that's necessary before they can become apprentices, but they will assist them wherever possible, and the same goes for them as any other company in the north.

It's much cheaper for the Inter­ national Nickel Company to have these men coming to them and working for them and certainly they are used to the weather conditions . They're used to northem living, and they have as much chance or maybe a better chance of sticking it out in the north than somebody coming from far distant places . But they will encourage Indian and Metis people to work in the Town of Thomp­ son wherever they prove that they are ready to accept apprenticeship or to be able to learn through an apprenticeship plan. MR . CHAIRMAN: 2 passed. MR . SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister another couple of questions if he can answer them before we complete this item. Has there been recent amend­ ments to the housing accommodation for Elderly Persons Act, or is the Act that was assented to March 15th, 1956 ; still in for ce, and has the definition of an elderly person been changed? I note in this Act that there is a means test applied, or intended to be applied to every person that enters an elderly housing unit on completion.

I can't see how this government would have • too much control over applying that test, but the Act certainly defines an elderly person and sets out the means test that must be applied. Now, I would like to ask him too if the department has made any arrangements with the Winnipeg General Hospital for their proposed hostel that they intend to start building this year, I guess -- according to a report from the Tribune dated February 1st, 1963 , when Dr . Bradley goes on to say, and ref ers to as a "little brother hospital" at which the rates will be much less, he says , than half of the cost of the regular hospital.

He said it might be years befo re the hos­ tel is completed but the

article suggests that they intend to commence building it this year. What plans, if any, and what government assistance are they offering to this proposed project? MR. CARROLL: Mr . Chairman, I think the first three questions require no answer on my part because we certainly can't change legislation by Order-in-Council as the member well knows, and I'm sure he would have been aware of any amendments to the Act that might have been made in recent times.

With respect to the hostel, I am checking the list of those hostels and housing accommodations that are under negotiation now with the department and I don't see the General Hospital listed here as one of the applicants for a hostel. It doesn't mean they haven •t . carried on some negotiations with the department but certainly there is nothing here to indicate that construction is imminent on that particular project . MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, this question may have been dealt with bef ore. I'm in (

b) of 1 under the Recoveries -- I notice the item of $39 , 500 recovered from Manitoba Hydro. I have no difficulty in understanding the one above -- Recoveries from the Government of Page 1496 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd.) •••• Canada. What is the nature of the recovery from Hydro ? MR . CARROLL: This , Mr . Chairman, is with respect to work that we're doing in the Forebay area -- work that is being carried out by the Community Development Service with respect to those .communities and those people that will be affected by the Forebay.

The Cedar Lake band, as you know, will be relocated at Easterville and there are several residents of the Moose Lake area that are going to be relocated, and part of the work that the Community Development people are doing in these areas is chargeable to Hydro as a result of the Forebay operation. MR . CAMPBELL: Would the payments in that case not go to the group that performs the work themselves rather than to the department? MR.

CARROLL: Well, I think -- yes, there is a direct payment for actual -- for the housing accommodation, etcetera, that is being done in the area, that is a direct payment by Hydro , a direct charge against Hydro , but these are expenses incurred by Community Develop­ ment as our

part in this over-all program. • ••• , ••• , ••••• continued on .next page April 22nd, 1963 Page 1497

MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 1 -- passed. Item 2, Welfare Services . MR . CARROLL: Mr. Chairman, I did have a statement to make on Item 2. This is the item, as you will recall, where we are making a change in two of the items.

As you know, The Social Allowances Act -- it was through this Act, this machinery by which the government is taking over some of the long-term welfare responsibilities of the municipalitie s, and it•s been the policy of the government to implement those sections of the Act which placed emphasis on the aged and infirm caseload and its dis ability cases with dependants which aren't covered by the federal Disability Allowance Act, and for those dis ability cases where a person is so dis- -abled that he requires the services of another person in daily living.

This sort of a piecemeal approach to the Act was necessi tated by the practical imposs ibility of the department dealing with the many thousands of new cases which we would be assuming if the full Act had been pro­ claimed and we have been acting upon it right from the start. The rate of enrolment under this Act has sort of levelled off at the present time and we are providing in these estimates here for the adults without dependent children who are so ill or handicapped as to be unemployable, I would like to say, Mr.

Chairman, had I made this statement before I commenced the estimates at all, it might have caused a lot less concern on the part of the members which was expressed in their earlier remarks. We are also allowing for a sm all increase in food payments for cer­ tain family members commencing July 1st of this year . There is one other matter which I feel should be mentioned. It's a new program and it was touched on by the Member for St. John's. This is a 11first 11 in Canada and it's a program by which we seek a solution to the multi-family problem .

For a good many years now welfare people and others have been aware of the fact that a very high percentage of time and money spent on welfare has been going to a very small, continuing and perpetuating group of recipients . This has resulted in tremendous economic loss, but more important, the human waste and mis­ ery which is involved with this kind of a situation.

Some of the symptoms of the inadequacy of these family groups are unemployment, delinquency, illegitimacy, poor school attendance, ea rly drop-outs, trouble with law enforcement officers, poor family relationships, symptoms of men­ tal ill health and all sorts of things of that kind. The case histories indicate that many agencies are involved with these familie s and each one working on a piecemeal basis.

It•s not uncommon for the welfare officer to go into a home, to be followed shortly by the probation officer, the truant officer, possi bly by the Child Guidance worker and Public Healt� Nur se, maybe even the bailiff would come trotting along after. So we have this sort of a parade of workers, each hav­ ing a piece of this over-all problem and no one with jurisdiction or authority or responsibility in areas other than this one special function which they have to perform , and after each time they pay a visit to the family they leave the family beset by the same over-all inadequacy to meet their total situation.

This problem appears to require a very special kind of approach and one which was forecast in the Speech from the Throne, The history of it is that a year ago the various interested agen­ cies, the provincial Welfare Department, the City of Winnipeg, the Children's Aid Society, the Corrections Branch of the Attorney-General's Department, Neighborhood Services, Winnipeg Planning Council, took part as an inter-agency group to examine the situation in the Salter­ Jarvis area, I don't know whether you saw the newspaper story in the Winnipeg Free Press da­ ted April 6th, "Young Social Worker Pioneers Exciting New Welfare Approach".

It is the story of Ken Mackie and their community house, Dufferin House, that•s down in the heart of the Salter­ Jarvis area. If you had read this article, you1d see some of the kinds of problems that he is fac­ ing down in that area and which has resulted in this inter-agency stUdy of the Salter-Jarvis area. Now the recommendations of this study were that a special agency should be established that would have two functions.

One was to integrate the services of all the welfare, or all the various agencies that were interested, and they would do this by means of each agency assi gning a senior social worker, with the province assigning two social workers and one supervisor.

Then all of the responsibilities held by these various agencies would be transferred to the supervi sor and he in turn would give these responsibilities to each of the workers which had been assi gned to him, so that each welfare worker in this area would carry the full responsibility of all of the agencies and they would work with the families in the area; and each family, instead of having five or six various workers coming to call on them, would have only one worker and he would have a very limited caseload so that he could concentrate on the needs of the individual family in that area.

Page 1498 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Carroll cont•d) .• ..•• The second part of this approach would be to strengthen the commu nity neighbourhood ser­ vices, the kind of service that is talked about in this Free Press

article here. We would assign an Assista nt Community Development Officer and a senior worker would be assi gned from the Commu nity Development Service, and this would apply a sort of a community development ap­ proach to the over-all Salter-Jarvis area. The whole aspect of this would be under a board of management which would be chaired by the Deputy Minister of Welfare. The directors would be the directors of the various agencies involved, and continuous study and evaluation and research into this project would be carried out throughout the project.

Now all of these agencies unanim ously agreed to this approach and the provincial govern­ ment has ag reed; and we are now in the process of recruiting staff. We have recruited some staff at the present time; we have also secured a supervisor who cannot start before June 1st, but by that time we feel that some of the work will have been underway in-the interval. In fact, the supervisor is giving some of his free time at the present time to work with some of the people that have already been hired for the project and they are sorting out the caseload and doing certain statistical work which will be required on it.

We think it's a very interesting ex­ perime nt in the rehabilitation of famili es, of those who have become chronically dependent up­ on the government and other private agencies, and this condition, I might say, goes on in some cases from generation to generation and becomes larger and larger as it goes, so you see the im portance of trying to deal with this problem and try to rehabilitate these people and get them back into a productive way of life.

We feel that this is a very important role that the province is taking on and will assist these people to independence and at the same time ml'.ke an impor­ tant contribution to the economy of Manitoba. That's the statement, Mr . Chairman, that I would like to make with respect to the Welfare Services item . MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, we appreciate very much the statement just made by the Hon­ ourable Minister.

I think duplication is a very bad thing and the present plan, I think, will do a lot of good, I would also, in addition, suggest that when a social worker is appointed in a cer­ tain district, to keep them there -- or keep her there -- so she could follow up the progress of the particular family. In connection with 2 (c), I understand that this takes in the Mothers ' Allowance, and I would like to ask the Mini ster if possible, if he has the figures, the following: No. 1, the num­ ber of families under the soc;:ial welfare, divided between the adults and the children.

No. 2, what improvements have been made to their allowance. In other words, whether the monetary allowance they recei ve was checked with the pres ent high cost of living and whether it is, " in the opinion of the department, sufficient. And thirdly, that•s the main question, whether those children who are removed from the welfare list, those who reach the age of 16 I believe, has any care been taken by any departmental agencies as to their ability of self-supporting, In other words, are they still going to school? Are they allowed to go to school? If not, has any interest been taken to find them employm ent.

And finally, where even they are not on the list of the fam­ ily, who are not entitled to Mothers 1 Allowances to be included in the family, are they allowed, if they are on their own, to stay with their mother in the same home, live in the same home even if they are employed, so the family will not be divided. The fear may be that if there •s an extra bowl of soup in the house that he may be eating it, considering that they're doing it at the expense of the Welfare Department, but all the mother probably can do is put a little bit more water and have another bowl of soup.

My interest is whether those children who have, on account of their age, been removed from the list, are they being given certain freedom to live with the family; and sec ondly is , what are they doing? Are they working? Are they being taken away from school? And those who have to attend school, are they being allowed to attend and stay on the family allowance for another year? MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, we•re up to (

c) are we ? MR. CHAffiMAN: We are dealing with Item 2. MR. SCHREYER: That•s fine. I wanted to ask the Minister a couple of questions ? I take it that Social Allowances -- just for clarification -- socia·l allowances are only paid out as supplementary to -- (interjection) -- I understand that, but social allowances are paid only as supplementary payments to people already in receipt of one kind of pension �r another. I just April 22nd, 1963 Page 1499

(Mr. Schreyer cont'd) .••••. want to know if that is the case. Secondly, what is the distinction between social allowances and infirm social allowances? There appears to be a distinction drawn and I am under the impressio n that certain kinds of cases, certain people, may qualify for infirm social allowance irrespective of whether they are in receipt of pensions or not. Third­ ly, l want to ask the.

Minister if there is any case in his department at all where a widowed mother, or separated, is in receipt of some kind of social allowance or assistance while at the same time working, say for $30. 00 a week or $25. 00 a week, whether there is anyone receiving social assis tance who is also working at the same time for some wage. I hope the Minister was able to get those questions. MR. S. PETERS (Elm wood): Mr. Chairman, I have just two points that I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister.

I would have had many points to bring to his attention but fortunately I go and see his Deputy and we manage to get most of the cases straightened out. The two chief complaints that I do hear from the people are that people in the age bracket of 70 and over seem to have the idea that they automatically qualify for a medicare card once they reach the age of 70. I don't know where they got that impression but I think that should be cleared up and the Minister should make a clear statement that they have to apply for these things, that they are not automatic.

The next item that many of the people that I have been in touch with complain about is that they don't get enough for food allowance. The Minister did mention something about increasing it after July 1st and I wonder if he would just elaborate on that just a little more, MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, on the same subject matter, when three or four years ago The Social Allowances Act was implemented we were supplied with a

Schedule A, a regula­ tion setting out the various basic needs and the amount allowed by the department for each item. I wonder is it the intention of the Minister at this time to supply us with the new schedule. Now, Mr. Chairman, under social allowances I would like to suggest that this department be much more generous with their medicare cards than they have been in the past.

If they•ve only got so much money to spend, then cut back a little on the cash allowances if that has to be done, but I say that if they•ve only got so much money to spend, be more generous with the · medicare cards than they presently are. The Honourable Leader of the NDP mentioned a little while ago that he thought that anyone who qualified for premium exemption should automatically qualify for a medicare card and I certainly agree with him on that subject, because they have applied a means or a needs test -- call it what you like -- and if they qualify for one they should qualify for the other.

I have before me Information Services Bulletin dated June 24th, 1960, three years ago, and it is headed: "One in 20 Manitobans are Premium Exempt" and goes on to say that "over 43, 000 residents, or about 1 in every 20 Manitobans, are exempt from paying Manitoba Hospi­ tal Services Plan premiums, Honourable George Johnson has reported. " That was three years ago. No doubt there will be 50, 000 by this time surely, three years later, if there were 43, 000 in June, 1960 that were exempt from paying premiums. What is the number today?

I would refer my honourable friend to Order for Return No. 18 that was issued on March 9th last -- 1962, pardon me -- March 9th, 1962. Question No. l, Number of persons in Manitoba as of January 1st, 1962, enrolled for social allowances -- 20, 000 or thereabouts. Now that's less than half of the number that are premium exempt. Question No. 2. The number of persons that are in receipt of a cash social allowance and the sum total received by them -- 17, 700, and they received $6,8 00, 000. 00. And then Question. No. 5.

The number of persons in receipt of a medicare card who receive no other social allowance -- 3, 000. So the Order for Return clearly indicates that there are only 3, 000 persons out of roughly 21, 000 persons who receive a medica1·e card and no cash allowance. Now I know that in many cases if older people were supplied with a medicare .card it would prevent them from going to a hospital.

I know my honourable friend will agree with this , and cer­ tainly the Minister of Health will agree with it, and many doctors in the province agree that the medical profession, by and large, when they have a patient that comes in that requires a lot of prescribed drugs and they haven't the means to pay for them, all he has to do is send them to a hospital and the drugs are covered under the in-patient program,

whereas if they had a medi­ care card he could keep them at home on drugs that are costing $30. 00 or $40. 00 a month. They can't afford to buy them unless they have a medicare card. I suggest that by being a little more Page 1500 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Shoemaker cont'd) •..•.• generous with the me dicare cards that in many cases it might save the government, or both governments, some money. Another beef that I have, Mr. Chairman, is that -- and this refers to medicare cards too -­ and I am just going to mention one case in Neepawa where an old couple living together both re­ ceive the old age security pension. They did not qualify for social allowance; they did not quali­ fy for medicare. I don 't know how they are able to get by but this man was taken ill and he spent a long time in the Winnipeg hospital here and some time in the Neepawa hospital.

V\hen he got back .home after spending some months in the hospital he again applied for social allowance or a medicare card. He wasn't asking for too much money. Give him a medicare card. He pointed out that in addition to all of the basic needs that the welfare worker had allowed him, he was now faced with paying back an $800. 00 doctor bill or thereabouts , and the social worker told him they could not consider back debts, so to speak as being a part of their cost of living. Well that may be true, but he will never be able to pay back the debt if he doesn't get some assistance and I think it is rather unfair.

What I would like to know, Mr. Chairman, !would like to ask my honourable friend at this time too, what is the maximum amount of cash or liquid assets that a single person can have In order to qualify for social allowance and a married person? Now I understand that it has been $500 in the case of a sirtgle person and $1, 000 in the case of a married couple. The purpose, I understand, is to pay for their last expenses on this earth. I was told the other day that it had been reduced considerably, and I would like to know what it is.

I spoke to my honourable friend the Minister of Health the other day about a problem that the optometrists find thems elves in today in dealing with medicare cards, and perhaps he could reply to the House in the same fashion as he did to me so that we could have it on record. I refer to the subject where apparently an optometrist is supposed to have on file a letter from a medical doctor stating that the patient has no diseases of the eyes before he, the optometrist, arranges glasses for him.

In many cases I am told that this is not done, and I'm told also that in the rural areas in m�ny cases the medical doctors are not qualified to do this, and therefore it's just not being adhered to. There is another point that the chiropractors raise . I am told that in the City of Winnipeg it's no problem really, that chiropractor treatment is not covered under medicare by and large. I have a l ittle pamphlet before me, "Health Care Services Provided by Medicare ".

It doesn't say that it is, yet they say, so I'm told, that in the City of Winnipeg if a chiropractor phones up the department and says: "Look, I have a patient in my office now, he has a medi­ care card and he •s here. for a treatment", that In 99 cases out of 100 they will let him proceed.

I know of one case where that has happened in Neepawa, where he phoned the Department of Welfare and said exactly that: "I have a patient sitting in my office just at the present time with a medicare card, will I be paid for the treatment if I proceed ?" They said 11 Yes, go ahead in this particular case and we 'll pay the bill. 11 Now these people are licensed, both the Optome­ trists and the Chiropractors, so that I guess it is felt that there is a place for them in our society; and I say that if we are paying for their treatment under medicare in most cases, well then we might as well get them in the Act, prepare a new pamphlet and pay for them .

I mean if they're going to have to phone up the department every time to get an 0. K. , and in most cases they're giving the O. K. , well we•d better amend it so this can be done. I would like the Honourable Minister, Mr. Chairm an, to elaborate a little more on the subject to relieving the municipalities of some of their cases. I think he indicat ed earlier that amendments would be made to relieve the municipalities further of some of their costs of wel­ fare. Perhaps he might elaborate a little more on that.

I have before me here somewhere a case where I had written to the Department of Welfare and I got a very nice letter from the Deputy Minister of Welfare, and he said that -- well, I said that I thought that ail municipal cases over one year in duration, welfare cases over one year in duration, were now taken over under Social Allowances; and he tells me that I am not correct in my assumption. I wonder, has that been changed? I' d ba interested to hear what my honourable friend has to say about that.

I have another letter here, a very recent one in regard to a case in Neepawa, and there 's one, two, three, four, five, six "ifs" in this letter -- six "ifs". 11 Thank you for your letter of January 22nd referring to Mrs. So and So. Under the sections of The Soci�l Allowances Act April 22nd, 1963 Page 1501

(Mr. Shoemaker cont1d) .••••• proclaimed to date, the provincial Welfare Department is re­ sponsible for this type of case if the father has actually deserted, and if he has deserted for more than four years, and if attempts have been made through legal process to get his support, and if the municipality has during the period of desertion supported the Wife and children. If these general conditions are not substantially met, then this case is a municipal responsibility, and may I suggest that if Mrs. So and So would like to apply for Social Allowance that she write a letter to 11 -- and so on.

I think there's seven "ifs 11 in that letter. · ' Well I hope that my honourable friend will be able to tell us that many of these cases have ·· been taken over, yet in looking at the estimates that are before us, there's a larger amount than ever in there for municipal aid. I think, Mr.

Chairman, that by and large every munici­ pality in the province will tell you that their cost of welfare has gone up in the last four or five years rather than down, despite the promises made by the government back in July 16, 1959, nearly four years ago, the then Minister of Health and Public Welfare. on page 1002 and 1003 of Hansard, he talks about a municipality. He says, and I quote: 11Sir" --: he•s answering a reply to the Honourable Member for Carillon -- 11 Sir, the municipalities of this province think we1re great, and I think they•ll keep on thinking so.

We are taking the long-term relief cases off their hands. In the past nine months in office I have had municipal men after municipal men in my office. One small municipality With two welfare cases costing $4, 500, and they could not possibly meet that need in the manner they Wished, and they felt this was unfair burden to the taxpayers. He asked what can the province do about this? Even on the 80-20 reimbursement they were going broke, 11 the Minister said. They were going broke four years ago.

Now I hope that my honourable friend will be able to tell us that they are taking the loads off the backs of some of the municipalities. MR . CHAffiMAN: Before we continue, I would like to remind the members of the group here in the gallery to my right , Grade 6 from the Elmsdale and Central Schools, Steinbach. It isn't often that we are welcoming a. group at this hour, but I understand that they were planning to come earlier but were delayed. Their teacher is Mr. Melvin Toews and they come from the constituency of Carillon.

I might say that we are very happy that you are here and that you are enjoying looking down upon the Legislature in session and that you will come again. In the mean­ time, that you•ll have a very safe and pleasant journey home; a good night•s sleep; and if your holidays are over, a good day in school tomorrow. We•re glad to have you here . MR . CHER NIACK: Mr. Chairman, I was waiting to see who would rise first. I want to thank the Honourable Minister for the fairly comprehensive report he gave us in connection with the co- ordinated work that is planned in the Jarvis-Salter area.

I did not hear him say that meet­ ings have been held or" the Board. I would like to hear more about whether this is a program that is being directed by the Board rather than by the staff. Possibly he could deal with that. But my main reason in rising, Mr. Chairman, is to request the Honourable Minister to deal with the pattern of public assistance in this Metropolitan area.

It is my strong impression that each municipality has its own standards and its own method of dealing with welfare, as a result of which I believe there is an inequality in the treatment given to people who are on welfare, de­ ·pending on the municipality in which they happen to live.

It is also my impression that the City of Winnipeg is the only municipality in the Metro area which has trained staff, and if I'm wrong in that respect, out of the 15-19 municipalities that would be involved in the Metro area, it would be of great interest I believe to the committee to know what the department does in an attempt to create standards which are maintained and equal to all, regardless of where they live within the Metro area.

The Honourable Member from Gladstone referred to assistance to the muni­ cipalities, but I would like to know what direction or guidance they get in addition to financial assistance. I'd like to suggest to the Minister that in an area such as Metropolitan Winnipeg there •s not much sense to have each municipality do its own welfare work without a co- ordinated program. MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I notice that the member for Gladstone already referred to Item 2 @;

l) Assistance for Municipal Aid Expenditure. I notice this item has increased by roughly 25 percent for this year. Could the Minister tell us just what accounts for the increase and on what basis the aid to municipalities is made? MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I understand this question has been asked of the Minister. Dealing with the amount of food allowance for a couple under our Social Assistance Act, I Page 1502 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Paulley cont'd) ••.•.••• understand from the Minister that this is going to be increased in July, if I recall correctly. I would like to hear from him by how much this is going to be increased. I recall in the past the Honourable the present Minister of Health, when he had charge of this department and the over-all health and welfare benefits in the Province of Mani­ toba, he loved to tackle me because I said that the whole set-up in the Province of Manitoba was on a "means 11 test. My honourable friend rebuted on every occasion that it's on a "needs " test.

Now I had a considerable amount of correspondence with the Ministry of Welfare pr1or to the present Minister taking the portfolio, and as a result of my investigations or correspond­ ence, I was fortunate enough to get down on a piece of paper what under a 11needs 11 test in the Province of Manitoba a couple were entitled to under The Social Allowances Act.

Now if this isn•t really 11means 11, I don't !mow, but. anyway in all deference to my honourable friend, the member for Gimli, the Minister of He alth, it doesn 1t seem to me that the "needs 11 provides very much "means 1 1• In the listing of the amounts set aside under The Social Allowances for food for a couple, I find the sume of $43 .0 0 for food. Now on a 30-d ay month, if one takes a look at this for two people we arrive at a figure I think of approximately 24 cents a meal. I note in the TV advertising that you can purchase an

article -- I think it's 3 biscuits called 11Limmits 11 which have the -- as I understand it the object of these Limmits is to help keep your weight down -- these three biscuits per meal cost you 36 cents per meal. Now I am wonder­ ing how the Minister can justify 24 cents per meal for two people when an advertised

article such as Limmits costs 36 cents per meal in order to keep your weight down. I am sure that no­ body under receipt of Social Allowance will have to take Llmmits in the first place and if they were in a position, certainly they couldn 1t afford to buy them . MR . CARROLL: Twenty-four cents per meal per person -- 48 cents for the two. MR . PAULLEY: Twenty-four cents per person,

whereas Limmits are 36 cents per person per meal. Have it whichever way you want. My honourable friend on two or three occasions has tried to twist words around that I have uttered here today and I 1:'Il not going to allow him to get away with it this time, Mr. Chairman. Also, when I find the compilation of the total amount under The Social Allowances Act for two people owning their own home, having to pay taxes, utilities, fuel, the total amount for the month for which fuel is provided comes to $1 08. 74.

There is a fuel allowance of $18. 75, which means that without the fuel allowance it is considered that two people can get along on $90. 00 per month, having to pay for their utilities, their clothing, household and personal needs . But the big important thing to me, Mr. Chairman, is the food allowance. I would like to hear from the Minister what the increase is going to be and how the amount of the Social Allowances is arrived at and on what basis. I might say, Mr.

Chairman, in respect of the case that I have in front of me at the present time, that it seems to me that there's no justification, that certainly it is not arrived at on a basis of need but rather one of means, despite my honourable friend the Minister of Health, Also, in the correspondence on this particular case which dealt with an asset of a very very narrow lot of 27 feet, there was a dispute between the department and myself and the parties concerned as to whether or not this was a tangible asset. It was in the town of Transcona which prohibits the building on a 27 foot lot.

The department said that you could and it had an assessed value of somewhere over a thousand dollars, and consequently the department ruled that it was a tangible asset even though it was no good to anybody. But in the correspondence and in the conversations with the department, there was a question of a poss ibility of a lien being placed against this vacant lot next to this home.

I would like to lmow of the Honourable Minister how many liens have been placed -- if he has the information -- how many liens have been placed in the last year or so on the properties of those in receipt of social allowances in Manitoba? MR . FRED GROVES (St. Vital): Following along the line of discussio n started by the Hon­ ourable Member for St. John's and also partly by the Honourable Member for Radisson, I have a suggestion that I would like to make to the Minister. I have before me a comparative welfare

schedule for all of the municipalities in Greater Winnipeg, including the City of Winnipeg, and the regulations under The Social Allowances Act. This

schedule was prepared for me by a per­ son in my constituency at my request and we endeavoured to put this on a comparative basis and found that it was almost impossible. Each of the 19 municipal governments in Greater Winni­ peg has in effect a separate standard of welfare. Some of the things are not a.musing but tragic April 22nd, 1963 Page 1503

(Mr. Groves cont1d) •.• •.• in man y ways. I won•t name the municipa lities but here are some of the statements that they ma ke. In one case, a basic rate of 35 cents per person per day for food. In another case, shelter -n o fixed scale, but suggest they keep it to a ma ximum of $55. 00 per month. Another one, clothing - no fixed sca le - as little as possi ble. Health care - only when necessa ry. The City of Winnipeg have a fantastically complicated method, it appears to me,_ of arriving at what each welfare recipient should have. Another case, they sa y food allowances •••••.• 1\ffi.

SCHREYER: Would you permit a question for clarification? When you, for example, read out "as little as possi ble -- no fixed sca le 11, is that actually quoting from the regulations or the by-law , or is it a para phrasing of yours of the esse nce of the regulations or the by-law ? MR. GROVES: This is a survey that was made of the welfare officer in the various muni­ cipalities and this is the answer that was given in thi s case: Clothing - no fixed scale, as little as possible. There are some others here along a similar line but it1s not necessa ry, Mr.

Chair­ ma n, to go over all of them, but nonetheless this proves that in ma ny cases the welfare regula­ tions of the municipalities are not realis tic. There appears to be no attempt to get together to get some minimum standard.

I would suggest that perhaps the Minister or his department would be doing a real serv ice, not only to the people that are on welfare in these municipalit ies but to the welfare officers themsel ves, if he were to call a conference of these welfare officers, or in the case of the municipalities where they don't have a full-time welfare officer, of the person in that municipa lity responsible for dispensing welfare, in order to try and arrive at some stan­ dard of welfare for the people in this area that find it necessary to depend on that for a living. MR. L.

HARRIS (Logan): We 've had people speaking tonight about the Indians and the Metis and I would like to sa y this. I have quite a few of Indian origin living in my constituency, and having to go around different parts of the constituency, it surpri ses me how these people live in the hovels that they ha ve to rent because it•s pretty hard for these people to rent any place at all. Not only that, but people take advantage of them beca use they figure that nobody cares for these people. I have an

article written here from The Tribune that describes it pretty well I think. It is by this lady, Ann Henry. She says : "What is the good of drawing graphs and tutting sweetly and gently about a sad and ter rifying situation when these people for the most

part live in sca brous, sour, grisly, ruinous rathole s known as -•living accomm odation 1? The welfare knows it. The aut horities know it. The public knows it. I had a list of accomm odation available to •the lower income brackets , 1 as we so charm ingly put it, just this week and I set out on a house or apart­ ment hunt for an Indian wom an with five children. I visited hovels so fetid and sour smel ling, so degrading and foul that no hum ane person would put a dog in them . The SPCA would raise holy hell.

"Pardon the language. 11 But the poorly educated, degraded, despised Indian has little or no other choice . He fai ls, and then when he fails, as naturally he must, the nice people say objectively: •Oh well, what can you do with them ? ' "YeE, I was very interested indeed in Bud1s panel. Mrs. Mary Guilbault , an Indian woman, obviously knew far more than her colleagues on the panel than she had the nerve to sa y.

When well-me aning policeman Jack Webster thought the law-breaking I!llian should go to ja il, learn his lesson and then be sent back to the rese rvation , she asked; •Have you ever been on a reser­ vation ? 1 Maybe a spell there is what we need to wake us up, 11 The program , titled The Indian and the Law was not without sympathy for the In:lian. What then are you fussing about , you ask? Because it is not sympa thy the Indian needs or wants . The Indian wants and is entitled to the sam e chance as anybody else.

What he is getting now is the insufferable patronization of the very people who brought about his years of poverty and de­ gradation in the first plac e. The wonder is not that 80 percent of the women prisoners at Portage Jail are Indian. It is not surprising at all. Where else can they end up? Where else can they go? 111 know the dear old panel tried to bring out these things . John Legasse understood how in­ flexible and intolerant the white man's Christian society was despite its nice professions of brotherhood.

Mary knew the Indian had no chance whatever of a job, but it was hard for her, an Indian, to be indignant or pointed, about discrimi nation, talking to white men. We expect vic­ tims of discrim ination to be objective and charming and •not so sensitive, for heaven 's sake. ' '• Mr. Le gas se pointed out that lots of poorly educated Manitobans who are not Indian, are working. He might have pointed out if he had time, that plenty of poorly educated white people Page 1504 April 22nd, 1963

(Mr. Harris cont1d) •••..••• have decent housing too. The program did try to point out that it was not because a man was Indian that he landed in jail or got drunk or whatever, but because his poverty and environment made no other result likely. 11I shall get scores of letters from nice people saying: 'My you were hard on that nice panel! 1 And to them I say that what is the use of nice people sitting about saying nice things while thousands of human lives rot without a dog 1s chance, without a hope ? rr Now, Sir, that shows to us that we have quite a problem here in Manitoba and it not only concerns the Indian.

We have various people and we have various societies here but they don •t seem to have no co- ordination at all in getting down to facts. There are people here that are of very low mentality and som etimes som ething very tragic occurs and then something is brought to light. ' Here is som ething here from last Friday's paper, 11Strange Circumstances Surround Tiny Sisters 1 Deaths - but no inquest is held in either. 11 This was in St. James and there are four people here. They were told about these things as they occurred but it seems that each one left it to the other one.

Now I don't blame any of them as far as that goes because we •ve got to blame ourselve s. We are the ones that are to blame. Here are these two little kiddies, one dies of malnutrition. 11Strange circumstances surrounded the deaths of two little girls of the St. James family of four children. One child, about two years old, died in March last year after drinking fuel oil in her hom e. Nine months later her sister, aged 15 months , died from what was claimed to be •malnutrition• but what doctors described as •excessive dehydration•. In neither case was an inquest held.

"Circum stances pertaining to both cases came to light when neighbours in the St. James district -- following the death of the second youngster -- expressed concern for the welfare of two rem aining children in the family and for a third expected to be b0rn within the next few mo nths. Officials of the Winnipeg Children's Aid Society said Monday the two children left in the family,. both in elementary school, are now in the care of relatives. The new baby, when born, will also be placed with relatives. In the front yard of a dilapidated house in St.

James, a grey baby carriage -- its handles and chrome wheels now rusted -- has been sitting at the doorstep for almost a year. The perambulator and a broken-down doll carriage .. ... rr That is all that is left of these two little children. We have everything in our society here in Winnipeg but we don1