VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEUBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 p.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 23, 1980 NO. 48

May 23,-1980 n Tape No. 1748 EL-l The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! First of all, I would like to make an apology to hon. lll8lll.bers. The Order Papers have not yet arrived from the printers. Friday 1110rning is usually a difficult problem but they are on the way and I trust they will be here shortly. I would like to welcome to the House and to the Galleries today on behalf of hon. members, forty-three grade seven students from Grant Collegiate of Springdale in the district ?f Green Bay along with their teachers, Mr. Jackman, Mr.

Tremblett and Ms • TOII15 and their driver,Mr. Wells. We hope that they enjoy their vi~it today. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS ' MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. J. DINN: Mr. Speaker, first of all, I apologize to the hon. member opposite for not having a copy of the statement. He has had an opportunity to re&d it but I just had it done this morning.

I had to have a check done this morning based on the controversy that has been happening with respect to the offshore and the supply vessels and various ads that have be- appearing in the 18dia and in other countries. ID response to conc.rns raised that the Crosbie OSA Group are advertising in countries other than CaDeil& to fill positions of masters and chief engineers, the Crosbie OsA Group has ad- vertised within the Province and across Canada in various publications.

They_ ~s~ hava-- a standing o.rder in with Canada Manpowr and Ismaigration, wile- in twn is chec:king across Canada with vario~ groups such as unions. The Provincial Depaztaent of Labour and . Manpower is equally aware of the need for this·: type<! of people and ensures 4572

May 23, HSO Tape NO. 1748 EL - 2 MR. J. DINN: that any qualified residents seeking these positions will get them. Further, any non-canadians hired in any positions on these supply vessels are hired on a temporary basis only. Aa soon as a qualified resident of the Province is available, the Prov­ incial Department of Labour and Manpower demands the repatriation of the non-resident. Any work visas granted these non­ Canadians from Canada Immigration are short term.

The Crosbie/O.S.A Group are required to engage suitable qualified trainees for any positions they cannot fill from within the Province in accordance with the Newfoundland and Labrador Petroleum Regulations. The Crosbie/O.S.A. Group presently have ten vessels working in Newfoundland offshore operation. These vessels e~~~ploy some 166 persons, of which 132 are Newfoundlanders. And, Mr.

Speaker, attached with the statement is a breakdown of each of the positions, llliltters, first mates, chief engineezs, second engineers, oilers, seamen and cooks and wherever we .have qualified people to flll these positions, we have Newfoundlanders worltinCJ ·on the rigs. MR. S. NEARr: MR. BARRE'1"'l': talking about. MR. DINN: MR. S. NEARr: ·the other day. MR. DINH: Not so. They- axe gradually sneaking them in. xg~ do not know what you are N-one. There are three. I told you about three N-one. Name one. 4573

:-lay 23, 1930 Tape ::o. 1749 ::l W - 1 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order. ,:>1-aase! Any further statements? The hon. ~inister of Forest, ~esources and Lands~ .:·:?.. C. POWER: ·tr. Speaker, I would like ~o ~able a very short statement although it is a very important one. I would like to inform this hon. House that after careful assessmen~ of the forest fi~e situation in this Province, I have arranged to release a ~ water bomber to the Province of :Ianitoba followinq a request from them for the services of forest fire figh~ing equipment.

The latest re?orts indicate 90 forest fires out of control in ·:anito~a ~;ith no immediate relief in siaht from the weather which continu~s to be hot and dry in that Province. In addi tlion to a re-assessu.nt of.. local conditions will be made within the next week or two, with the view of making a second water bomber available to that Western Province. It is my hope that our ccntribution to the fire fighting effort in Manitoba will help alleviate the very serious situation that they have there. I miqht also add, Mr. Speaker, this is one of seven water bombers that we have in the Province. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: aR SPEAKER: Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Windsor - Mr. Speaker, for this side I am sure I speak for all of my colleagues when I indicate to the minister that we understand this situation and we agree and~support his decision. Obv~ously,if one listens to or watches the news these days,Manitoba seems to be almost an inferno, Manitoba. and Northern Ontario. And just one word of caution, of course, the minister alluded to it, that we would have a day to day assessment on the situation in our own Province and not weaken our own capability to 4574

:.iay 23, 1980 Tape No.l749 D~l - 2 :1R. G. FLIGHT: protect our forests in the event of a high fire hazard-occuring in this Province. !·lR. E. ROBERTS: Well said. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) Any further statements? The hon. the ~inister of Fisheries. MR . .I. MORG JUT: Mr. Speaker, despite the int~rruptions of the Opposition ! will attempt to make a Ministerial Statement again today. The situation is with regard ,to questions asked by the concerned ~embers of the Opposition last week and the last couple of weeks on the applications for assistance f~om fishermen to the Fisheries Loan Board.

I want to give an upda~e of the situation and whereby to inform the House that all applications. to the Fisheries Loan Board have now been processed. A total of 924 applications have qone through the screening pr~cess and the breakdown is as follows. A total of 924 appliaations underwent screening during the past number of weeks under the new regulations and guidelines. Three hundred and twenty-two of these have now been screened to be~approved under the criteria ~ set down in the new regulations and will now go before the Board over the next couple of meetings.

One hundred and thirty-six applications have been returned to the fisher- men for additional and further information, in other words, the applications did not contain ·sufficient information to enable complete screening. One hundred and s~eaty-one of these ~pplications have been screened and recognized that they can be approved under the new regulations and have now been forwarded to the chartered banks whereby the chartered banks, commencing on June 1st., will be able to process these applications under the new Government Guaranteed Loan Programme through all the chartered banks throughout the Province.

Two hundred and ninety~five of 4575

).lay 23, 1980 '!'ape No. 1749 DW - 3 '!R. J. MORGAN : the applications scree~ec appear not to ~e eliaible based on the new regulations and the ne•..r eligibility criteria. Eowever, they will be screened a second time in case some of them can be recognized as being qualified under the new criteria. 4576

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1750 t."'M - 1 MR. MORGAN: So , Mr. Speaker, the new loan board has been quite active over the past few weeks under th~ new regulations, wherebY now all the applications they mentioned h~ve been screened and a total of 138 applications have been approved since the beginning of the fiscal year, which came to a value of $1.3 million.

So the new loan is now in ~ situation whereby they can now notify all the applicants by letter, over the next few da.ys, all the applicants, all the fishe.r:llll!n applying for assistance giving them the exact stat"..lS of the applications that have been · on file with the loan board. In other words, all applications have been dealt with. Mr. Speaker, as I promised the House in my last statement on the loan board,I was then going to be publishing­ the department would be publishing a brochure, giving the fishez:men all details with regard to the fishing vessel assistance plan.

So it is important for all fishermen to have this information available to them so they will know before making application wh~~ the regulations are and what the eligibility criteriaare to obtain assistance. That brochure is now being published and I wish to table a copy of the brochure today in ·the Assembly here.for all members and it is now being mailed to all fishermen throughout the Province, and will be in the hands of the fishezmen over the next couple of days.

If anv member _ of the House wishes additional copies of the brochure they can contact the Chai.DMn of the loaa board an~ obtain additional copies for their own constituents. MR. F. :RIJME: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr. Speaker, I am going to have difficulty in replying to this because I have a thirteen page statement from the minister last week, an eight panel brachure from the minister this morning, and an additional three page statement from the minister this morn:tng. But I would like to point out, Mr.

Speaker, that of the total of 924 applications only 1..'38, in fact, have been approved and the rest of them are under some sort of a screening process and have yet to - have been screened but have yet to 4577 -- - .- ~ --. ~7--- -

MaY' 23 1 1980 Tape no. 1750 NM- 2 MR. F. ROWE: come before the Fisheries Loan Board. So we are quite a distance away from actual approval or disapproval of these applications for the fishe:cnen which puts them in a bit of an awka%d situation because of the fact that we are already into the fishinq season. But, Mr. Speaker, if 1: may 1: would like to qet into some of the points of the rules and r~lations pertaining to the Fisheries Loan Board. AN aOH .. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR. l!'. ROWE: run out of tilne. Well, Mr. Speaker can stop !De when 1: c;lbviously 1: would like to point out to the House, Mr.

Speaker, that the interests to be paid directly to banks by the fishe:cnen, after Lt-578 - -·-· -~------·-------~-----,---~--.----- · ~- ---~ ···-·

May 23, 1980 Tape 1751 EC - l MR. F. ROWE: verification of payment the fishenMn will. be refunded. I think. this will cause quite a. delay and a bit of a hardship in the case of the fishe:rman and I woul.d suqqest that some other mechanialll sboul.d be foUDd wilereby probably the fishen.n coul.d, in fact, pay the Loan Board interest rate of 8 per ~t and the bank, itself, is the one that qets reiSursed at a later cl&te rather th.an the fishermen who . after qettincr their ~eeipt ' then have to apply to the Fisheries LooiUI. Board to ~..e up the difference. Also, Mr.

Speaker, this business of the lllllldiiiUIII terms for any loans upon which a quarantee may apply may be twenty years for steel vessel..&, fifteen years in the ca.se of fi.breglass vessels and ten yean in the case of wooden vessels. I cannot see why there is a differentiation batw-n the lanqth of time for steel and fibreqlasa ~ssals. I woul.d think that fi.breqlass vassals probably have a qreater lo11qevi ty than, in fact, the steel vassals and shoul.d be put on the s- twenty year term.

Thera is no mention of aluminum . boats when it comes to loiUI.S here althouqh .it is mentioned later on wi tb respect to bounties. With respect to allqibillty raquire.ants, Mr. Speaker, it says that a loan may be mada to a :fisheDum who is of leqal a.qa, a. canadian citizen, and a resident of Nawfoundlilllld and LaDradDr. I think - ha"n to hpe scaa defiDition of what a canadian citizen is and what a residant of Newfouncnand and Labrador is.

Is it suppo .. d to be sa..tbinq alonq the lines of the Elec:t.i.ODB Act or what? ~t happena if a guy happens to IID'ft aay f:raa the Province for a year for a job in Toronto becauae he loat 'his :­ job or did not do that vall in the fishezy the year befon? It alao requires that a fisha:man has to ha'ft two years of full-tiD& fishillq in a certain reqion. Aqai.n, I think this has to be defined. For 8XIUIIE'le, if you look at Placentia Bay and Trinity Bay, you quite ofteJl hava fi.ahea.n crosainq over the istlmus a.Dd goinq from one bay to the other • and if Pl&centia.

Bay is ccmsi.dared to be one reqion and Trinity Bay is uotber ~.- can •- a situation where a 4579

May 23, 1980 'l'ape 1751 EC- 2 MR. F. !UfE: fishazman who say, for example , is li.vinq iD Gzeen's Hazbour !Jat who has fished iD Placentia B&y aczoss tba is~ for a ccuple of years will not be ell¢b1e to receive a lo1111. So - may haw a pZ'ODl- there .. AqaiD, tlMi s- thinq applle& with z:eapec:t to tba requi.rtmellt for 75 per cent of .his inca.e harizlq to cc.a fmll the fishi.nq sector.

I laloW IMilY fi.sbuMD who haw &peat qai.ta a few lllim1:M tisbinq Ulil h&Ye Ind. a bit of a fail~ darinq the fi.shiDq aeucm; vbo haw baeD luclty 8D011oCJb. to latch oD to a good cOJ18tructiOD job dari.nq tbe W1D.ter an4 ~ .1110re thaD 25 per aeDt of thei.r in~ _!ra:a __ ;h.~ __ construction job althoUCJh ~y are fishezmen who · really ha'Ve spent IIIUCh of their t;!:ue in the fishery but do not get that 75 per QeDt requirement for their income. MR. SPEAlCEll (S~): tt- has expi..nd. MIL. F. IDIB: SON& BQ11. JIEIIBERS: MIL. SPBAD:ltz MR. P. BOllE: Order, p~~ '!!le boA. Mllber' • Mar I jut clue vp, Mr.

Speaker - By 18&ft. By 1-ft. - by silllply aayinq tb&t: there are MllY other quaations that I <:eulcl ask relatinq to th1a an4 I will aDdertake,u :r iDc!icatad ear~, ta 4580 - ----~ . -· ---.-- - -------- ---··- "'

May 23,1980 Tape ~o.l752 AH-1 MR.F.ROWE: get these questions to the minister in the form of writing in order that he may be able to answer them at some point. MR. ROBERTS: Well said. MR.SPEAKER (Si!Ims): Any further statements? The hen. the Minister of Education. MS.VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform this ( hon. House of government • s final. decisions on the 'tormul:l (;rants provideci by the Secretary of State of the federal government - MR. S. NEARY: He chanqed his mind again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MS VER!iE: -for special,additional bilingual programmes in education.

I think it is appropriate tpat this statement is being made with so many students sitting in the galleries. I am pleased to announce that. in the 1980-81 fiscal year, the total amount of the formula ' grants will be spent on special bilingual programmes. Three hundred and seven thousand dollars will be made available for the following programmes; Bursaries of $400 for t;rade lX and ! students to attend French summer schools on Miquelin and and in Quebec; grants for ~ades lX and ! students to make weekend field trips to St.

Pierre during the school year; student exchange trips to Quebec, Summer institute for French teachers; teacher fellowships of $4000 to study French at university; travel bursaries for French teachers to attend a course in France: French curriculum development; a grant to the Roman catholic School Board for Labrador for French schooling for francophone students in Labrador west;bursaries for francophone students of Labrador west attending high school in Quebec followinq Grade'! ; audio-visual. materials for French instruction; grants to school boards for extra instructional materials;Extra French readers for all grades; subscription to s French magazine,Video-Presse, for all schools: funding for Newfoundland Teachers Association Modern Languages Special Interest Council Conferences and the St .

John's 4581 ~ ---- ------- -

May 23,1980 Tape NO. 1752 AEI-2 llSS VEI!GE: Saturday morni.nq French school for chi1dren. The balancle of the formula qrants , $105, 000, have been desiqnated for salaries of consultants and staff in the C!tlrriculum

section of the Department of Education. Mr. Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to tell hoD.. members about the status of Fr~h education in our Province and of : the tremendous adVances made in recent years. Most of our stllden.ts from (trades lV to xr - - now have access to r~ French instrllction. Many of our pupils be<Jin learninq French .in kinderg~n. In the French core programme available to DlOSt students, French is taught one period per day. Tile French core proqramme has expand,ed greatly during the past decade. For example, in 197G-7l only about sixteen "per cent of . Grade lV pupils had the opportunity to learn French. 4582 --- -·-- ·

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1753 SD - 1 MS. t.. VERGE: By 1978-79, the last year for which statistics are available, the percentage had jumped to 62 per cent. Not only is French now taught to more of our students than ever .before, but the quality of the curriculum has improved significantly. In 1978-79, the Depart~~ent of Education began the phase-in of a new French programme for Grades VIII through XI. In Spetember 1980, a new elementary progr~~~~~~~e will be introduced in Grades IV and v.

These new proqr11111111es, as second lanqua911 teachers will attest, are excellent because they incorporate the most recent developments in language teaching and are designed to appeal to today's youth. The emphasis in t.'lese programmes is on the development of or~ skills. These regular Prench progrillllllles have always been paid for directly by the Province. Considering teacher salaries and other expenses, the total cost to be bome by the Province this year will aaount to several million dollars.

The secretary of State of the federal government funds other P%8Dch programmes in our Province through "federal annexes • • Under this arranqe~~ent, the following support services are supplied with the total. expenditure being reimbursed by the federal government: Travel bursaries for franoophone students of Labrador west attending ~gap in Qllehec, Bursaries for teachers to take SUlllller French ~ion courses . at Canadian universities; Student fellowships for study at st. Pierre institute or French university, Part-tU.

French C011rsas for adults. :Ill addition, under the federal annexes, the · following projects are cost-shared .by tha federal gove:msm1t: Salaries of French co-ordinators with aboc fifteen sChool boards throughout the Province, Avalon ~r school, a mini-~sion pmgrllllllle for high school students, French ~rsion for St. John's' at Holy Cross Primazy and st.

Bonll"fttntun 's Schools - Kindergarten through Grade II, as well as late i-rsion fer United Junior High School; French iJaersion for Gander - ltinderqarten and Grade I; and French illlmersion for Port au POrt - ltinderqarten through Grade IV plus a re~al class. 4583

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1753 SD - 2 MR. L. VEl'tGE: In all , Mr. Speaker , our Province has made excellent proqress in bi1inqual educ:ation. ou,r raoord is considered outatandi.nq throuqhout Canada. Mr. Speilku, I z:etum to the matter of the foJ:IIII1la qrants f:rom the Sec::etazy of State. These grants originated a decade aqo in response to the r:ecoBIII&miation of the !loyal Colllllission on Bilinqaal.isll and Bic:ultw::alislll that the federal gow:rn..nt provide finaDc:ial aaaistanc:e to the Provinces to IIIHt the' additional, costs' of - . -- - laDCJU&g8 p.roc;r--. in education.

This Province bas always applied the fomula funds to special bilim;ual progrUIIIIBS, in addition to the raqular li'renc:h instzuc:tion. To the best of my knowledge, however, sane other provinces have used the fo%11nll.a grants for .regul.ar, ongoing bilingual P:tOCJTCIIIIIII8S or for other purposes. 4584 ---~-- ------- -·--- ---·-- --~--------- . "

"'( May 23, 1980 •rape No. 1754 NM- 1 MS. VERGE: The previous Federal Liberal Administration as of about one year ago, indicated to the officials of our Education Department its intention to gradually withdraw from formula grants, to eliminate them over the next few years. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that the present federal administration will reconsider this matter and decide against lessening federal funding of bilingual programmes in education. I will be writing the Secretary of State, the hon. Francis Fox, expressing this view. Mr.

Speaker, the estimates of the Department of Education include only $126,000 for some special programmes listed at the beginning of this statement. Final decisions on the programmes to be affected had not been made. Over the past couple of weeks, I have received a large number of letters and submissions from teachers, students and parents throughout Newfoundland and Labrador expressing strong support for French programmes in education, and protesting any reduction in special programmes or support services. Their views were carefully considered by this government. Mr.

Speaker, I recently had to admit to Your Honour and hon. members that I cannot speak or understand spoken French. When I studied French in school, which was not very many years ago, oral skills were not taught. However, in recent days, my desire to learn to speak French has been renewed and intensified. And in closing this statement I would like to speak "En Francais". ~cemment, beaucoup de personnes de Te=e­ Neuve et du Labrador ont dS!ontre gr~ce ~ leurs paroles et a leurs actions SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MS.

VERGE: que les gens de no=e province tiennent ~ pourvoir apprendre le Francais et aussi a conna~tre la culture du Canada Fran~ais et de la France·. Je pense que ceci est de bonne augure en ce qui concerne les rapports a venir entre notre province et le Qu~ec, etant donne que nos efforts se dirigent vers le mame but, c'est-~-dire une constitution plus juste pour notre pays, le Canada. Merci. 4565 ... --. -·-- ·------ - ---

May 23, 1980 SOME HON. MEMBEBS: MR. SPEA!Qm (Simms) : MR. FLIGHT: half hour. Tape No. 1754 NM- 2 Hear, hear! The hon. member for Port au Port. You have got a half hour 'Jim • , a full MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I am certainly not goinq to try to ups~e the minister on he;r French. My French is bad but I do not think hers is very liiUCh better. But, Mr. Speaker, I believe the f~ral MPs have some sort of a proqra1111118 Where there is a French ilmleniioD for those people who wish to - MR. LUSH: six weeks. MR. HODDER: - take it, a six weeks .illlmersion course.

And pe:r::haps the minister, and certainly if she does I would like to as well, and perhaps other members - MR. F.ROWE: Cozy, ~ery cozy. MR. HOOPER: - because we are a bilingual House, perhaps there should be a provision made for 111embers of this House to be able to take this French ~icD'proqramme which the federal government provides for federal MPs. MR. LDSB:. SOME HCti. MEMBERS: MR. HODDER: MR, r.D$B: r suggest we do English first. Hear, hear! English. Many of the members need English ftrst. But, Mr. Speaker, I did - the liWi.ister told me this morning th.at she - she did call t.5B6

May 23, 1980 Tape No. l 755 EL - l MR. J. HODDER: me and tell me but I had no idea that Ministerial Statement would be so long;;and I am not quite sure exactly what she has done except I do believe that she has reversed herself on her decision to take the- MR. F.B. ROWE: That is right. MR. J. HODDER: - mcney that was eazmarked fQr bilingual programs and which was to go into general revenue, that these programs will now be ongoing. And, I believe the details which she listed there this IIGming are all of the progriiiiiB which were in jeopardy. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased that the Minister baa reversed herself.

I mean, she did - AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)a great deal of (inaudible). MR. J. HODDER: - make a decision than sort of - MR. .I!'Ll:GH'r Backed down. MR. HODDER: -backed. 'down a little bit and nov finally she has recapitulated total.ly and I, for one, and the memben of this side, are pleased that Minister-MR. .FLIGB'l' : MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. HODDER: - did put soliiB pressure o~ the Old Flip-Flop Lynn. - along with other groups - Order, please. - in the Province to change her decis~on.

I think she ..has dona the right thinq and that the mcney is now going where it belongs and that the minister is acting in the honOurable way and spending the money as it should have been spent. I do WODder, Mr. Speaker, how the decision was taken? If the decision was taken by .'~!:.::: ~~-star's officials, which . 4587

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1755 EL - 2 MR. J. HODDER: I suspect, without her knowledge, then I think that perhaps the minister has learned her lesson from this. But, the lllinister's prior reasoning to the House, that if we continue to put the money that comes from ~~e Federal Government into general revenue or if she put it in that the Federal Government would t.'1en withdraw it later, was bad reasoning and,basically, after checking the other provinces of canada, most of the provinces of Canada, although they have different formulas and different ways of doing it,they do spend the money as it should be spent.

Well, Mr. Speaker, I have to say one other thing; that there is not enough money spent on French education for French Newfoundlanders.

I feel very stronqly that we should try and preserve both the French heritage and culture of those French Newfoundlanders and I do not exclude the French people who have come in from other provinces, but our own French Newfoundlanders at the present qme, have one immersion course only serving the whole of the Port au Port area where a great number of the people there speak French and I do hope that the minister, very soon, will take a look at the French question in the Port au Port area and on the West Coast, the Stephenville - Port au Port area, and look at the problems where students from French speaking communities are being bused to .

EngliSh speaking schools and their lanc;- uage is constantly beinc; ernlded because there is no immersion program there. I would like the minister to do that. As far as the minister's commitlllent to get in touch with the Federal Minister, Francis Fox; 4588

May 23, 1980 Tape 1756 EC - l MR. J. HODDER: that is k.ind of inconsistent with wb&t she was doinq before, but I think that the minister is now on the riqht track. Shu has seen the liqht and. I am vary qlad she hu. SOME. I!OH. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER. (Simms): Ordre s • il wus plait~ I would like to walCOIIIII to the qal~~ today a qroup of students from. the secretarial science class from. the Colleqa of Trades and Tachnoloqy.

We hope that they will enjoy their visit, and u wall, a qroup of Grade :! students froa Cape John Colleqi&ta of LaScie in the district of Baie Verte - Whi.ta Bay, alonq with their teacher, Mr. Harvey aDd their driver, Mr. Short. we hope that they wi.ll enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Any further statuaents? ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAD:Rz 'lhe hem. the Leader. of the Opposition. MB.. o. JAMIESON: Mr. Spe.X.r, I have a question for the bon. the Prellier. It is,in a. seDSe,a. follow-up to one I a.sUd hia a couple of -.Ita aqo.

Giv.n the rapidity with which the COIUititutional diacwuion proposals are IIQV IIIDvinCJ ahead, and qivan the fact that the Pre.ier hu proposed a. meetinq of Premiers, I beliav., within a couple of -··- -· - ~ weeks or so , pllm the lil:lihood that it is conceiva1)le, at least, that there wil.l. be a -t:iDq of the head& of go~t. includinq federal and provincial., dur'i.nq the early ~of the s-r - qiftll all of these fac:t.a, what ie the statu DOW of the ~t to which he made reference - or wbatbar it u one or mgre doCU11811ts - on the Constitution, which in the 'lhrone Speech o~ the last session it waa indicated would ~ the subject of discussion aiiiCDCJ citizens of this Province?

MR. SPEADR: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEa!'ORD 1 Mr. Speaker, at the present mg.-n,t the Minister of Justice (Mr. G. Ottenheimer), throuqh his department, and in consultation with his colleaques in Cabinat,is preparinq that doctiiii8Dt. I would anticipate that within the next two or three weeks it wi.ll be 4589

May :Z3, 1980 Tapa 1756 EC- :Z PREJUER PECXFORD: fina.lized and have debate at the cabinet level and then be put foxward as the position of Newfoundland on the iqlortant points to be discussed in th.e onqoinc; constitutional talks wh.ich will get undexway very shortly. So that is the status of it. Secondly, and in the same ~nera.l context, but. not. the specific one, the other document as it relates to specific: issues - federa.l/prcvincia.l issues - dea.ling between the two gove~ts, the federal qove:rnment and the Nawfoundl.i!:r.d Go~t, that doCUIII8nt will be ready next week.

So one will. be published next week. which dea.ls with. onqoinc; federal/prcvincia.l relationsb.ips, specific, with. all the varioua departments and issues that we nave between our two gove~ts. The one concerninc; constitutional. reform should be ready in the next two or three weeks. MR. D. JAMIESON& Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAJ:ER (Si.Das): of the Oppoaition. MR. D. JAMXESON: A supplementary, the han. th.e ~ COuld the hon. tba Pr~er tell.- whether or not the .. updated, I belleYe, is the appropriate word for it - bllatara.l issues doC1Dient will, in fact,be made public when it has been completed?

And silllultaneously, will. it be sublllitt:ed to ottawa or what is the t1.etable there? And so I can sa'V8 a further supple-.ntary, 4590

May 23, 1980 Tapa No. 1757 DW - 1 11R. D. JAMIESON: is there a mechanism yet in place,given the fact that a number of statements by the Premier have been specific on which-is there a mechanism through which the public.is, in a sense, going to have a chance to eit!ler (

a) hear further exposition on the qovern­ ment•s position or indeed argue with it if that turns· aut to be the case? MR. SPEAKER (.Siliim!IJ): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Oh, yes it was always my intention, Mr. Speaker, for example,on the document next week concerning bilateral issues between the two govern­ ments, to make it public ~nd to table it in this House so that it can become available to everybody and be so reported.

It is an update on ·the previous document and tries to encompass all of the major items of concern to both levels of government and what our position as a provincial government is on them and what we would like to see done in relation to them, co-operation between the two governments and the kind of funding and all of the·:rest of it that would be necessary in order to give reality to them. But,obviausly,it will be tabled next · week. MR. D . .TAMIESON: A final supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. Leader of the Opposition. ~R. D.

JAMIESON: I am no·t sure i:!i.at I am offering-advice, Mr. Speaker, to the Premier or not. But the point is and I realize the delicacy of the sLtuation,is this, in a sense, a neogitatinq document and is it appropriate for either side, in effect, to- 4591

May 23, 1980 Tape ~o. 1757 DiV - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: is this a paper in which the government is going to sa~ this is the basis for negotia­ tion or is it going to be a sort of shopping list? Because clearly in neogtiation things are going to change and I am curious to know how the Premier or his ministers who may be dealinq with i~ - what will happen if i~ the end something c~mes out that is somewhat different than what is in the shopping list,if h~ follows my line of reasoning. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PRE~IER PECKFORD: Yes.

I understand that but most of the things that we are dealing with are pretty basic issues. They are not negotiation stanzas as such, they are broad princip~es of concern that we have and it is under those principles.where you get into the details whi~Ch will n.ot be 1 obviously a part of the document 1 where there can be negotiation back and forth. But they are broad issues of principle that we have to deal with.

For example, our ongoing - just for a very specific example concern with the whole question of DREE and its mandate in Eastern Canada, for example, and how we support that concept and detail a number of areas where we want to - and it is a fairly keasonable kind of proposition. But once again it is a general principle one. the same way with ongoing transportation issues as it relates to Trans-Labrador Highway and so on. We do not argue over whether it should be 100 per cent federal funding or 75 per cent federal funding, that is part of the negotiations.

But the principle and the direction must be clearly established and that is what this paper tries to do. 4592

:·lay 23, 1980 ~ape No. 1757 Dt-1 - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD : Secondly, as it relates to the constitutional issues and ?aners 1 ~he same kind of an ao~roach ~trill be 7.aken, 4593

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1758 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: it will be in a direction, for example, but whether the Govemment of Newfoundland considers it important on the front end in constitutional discussions to talk about communications or whether it does not. Now your position on OJumunications in detail must be, of course, the subject of some discussion between al.l of the First Ministers and so on. so, that is the kind of approach we will take. MR. SPEAXER (SiDIIIIS l : The hon. meriler for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. FLIGH'l': Mr. Speaker, I ha~ a question rfor the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr.

R. Dawel with regard: to the park si,.tuation. There seems to be a fur amount of confusion as to what is real.ly happening and what is going to happen in our paz:lt system this year, confusion amongst the general public who are looking at using the parlts, the pa:dt operators c, the woz:lters , and even the people who are interested in looking at the possibility of leuing the parks as appeared to be what would be happening this year.Would the minister indicate at this point just what is happening with regar~ to the private management or the taking over of the parlts by private indastries? MR.

SPEAJ::ER: and CUlture. MR. R. DAWE: The hon. the Minister of Tourism, Recreation Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any confusion that is existing especially as it relates to staff, e.ployeea, parlt employees and so on. If I understand the situation correctly, last year a stat-nt vas made that the leasing of the publicly owned pazks in thu Pxovince was going to be taken under active consideration to P%iN.f:dw an opportunity to look at the costs involved in maintaining aDd operating provincial pazks and alao recoqnizing the need that this Province needs additional cmapqrounaa.

I believe I indicated not .:)nly in this House some time ago but also on several occasions to the media,that and intez:nal assesSliii!Jlt was being done of the CaDPJrolmd situation in the Province to take into consideration three major aspec..ts, I suppose, as they relate to ca111P9'rounds. The fact that 80 per cent of our clliiiP'JrcandS are publicly owned, owned and operated by govez:nment, that 4594 --··-·---· ·- ·

·- May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1758 SD - 2 MR. R. DAWE: only 20 per cent are owned and operated by private individuals and the fact that there is some considerable roadside camping going on as it zelates to gravel pits and so on, the problem created in high concentration areas, that whole situation has been reviewed by staff of my department, a report is in my hands right now and I am in the process of reviewing it.

Once I have completed this revi- I will be making recoaDendations to my colleagues in Cabinet as to how I think - should proceed or how this government should proceed; there are several options avai..lable to them, how - should proceed in developing and maintaining our existing campgrounds. So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think there is any confusion and, as I stated earlier, that as soon as this decision has been made it will be made public. MR. G. FLIGHT: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) Supplementary, the h= member for Windsor-- Buchans . MR. G. FLIQI'l': Hr.

Speaker, inde&!i there is confusion and in the llli.uister's anSller I would say there is confusion in the lllinister's mind as to what is going to happen to the pa:dts • I would like to ask the minister,if he has the report in his hands 1 if contained in that report is a consideration, an opposition by small cOIIIIIIUDities, c011111unities living around those pazks; that up to this point in time the spin-off business generated by the p&J:Xs made a substantial contribution to the economy of those various town and I think o£.

Badger, in the cue of Catamaran, Windsor,­ Grand ~alls, Beothuk Pazk and all the rest of the par.ks,and that there maybe, indeed, a lot of opposition from that sector of the economy, that they are conc:emed that '·the turning over of the pa:dcs to private indwstzy will, indeed, have a:n· adverse effecton the economy of the various coiiiiRIOities that now draw a fair <mount of inco- from the existance of those parks? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture. MR. R.

DAWE: The hon. member seems to think that there has already been a decision made to allow pa:dts to be operated by private erite:r:prise which is definitely not true at this point in time. 4595

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1758 so - 3 MR. R. DAilE: Our provincial parks are unique in North Alllerica in that they are basically natun puil:s. The amenities 4ft not thexe that one would c:onaider or expect in private pazlts, we ha9e no laundromats or concession stanG& and so on. MR. G. n.IGH'l': Not yet. MR. R. DAWE: Two reasons for this, basic:all.y, one is that the ccmc:ept of our provincial puk systa in the past has beell tbat - want to keep the pal:ks that way - a natural settinq, and our pazlc sy8~ is rec:o9J'Ii:zed as probably the best of its k~ in North llmarica. AN HOM. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. R.

DAWE: The sec:onci and the whole philosophy in the pai!lt has been that by not havinq the CODc:essions in these parks that are in close proximity to COIIIIIIUDities, that it would 4596

May 23,1980 Tape 1759 AH-1 MR. DAWE: encourage people who are visiting the parksto travel to the communities to purchase ice cream for the children if they want to on a rainy day, to buy gas,to buy supplies 5nd so essentially it was of a benefit. There has been no pressure, that has been a philosophy that has been in the department as it relates to provincial parks for sometime. If, in fact , parks were to be considered for private leasing,an evaluation of a particular park would have to be taken into consideration as it rela~es to a number of things and one of the things would be its proximity to a community.

MR.FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A final supplementary. The hon. member for Windsor-~uchans. MR. FLIGHT: It would appear that there will be no leasing or turning over to private industry the operation of our public parks this year, it would appear from what the minister has said • Would the minister indicate whether or not there is a gross inadequacy in our parks? Every gravel pit from here to Port AuxBasques was filled over this long weekend arid,bfr. Speaker ,there is a lack of park- campsites.

Now,is the Province going to undertake a programme of upgradillg, providillg dumping facilities and that kind of thing in our parks this Summer and is there any thought towards increasing the number of campsites in our parks to take care of the kind of overflow that we know exists? And, Mr.

Speaker, while the minister is up - he is giving · S<?me lanq_;~~d answers here- while he is up would he indicate as to whether or not that is in keeping, if we do indeed try to tackle the shortcomings of the. par:k.s, will . that be in keeping with his statement last _ y~~t __ ~e government intends to turn over the parks to public. leasincr: because we have to look at spending money­ we prefer to spend it on, ' hospitals as opposed to parks? MR. SPEAKER: and CUlture. MR.OAWE: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Recreation A point of clarification, Mr. Speaker. 4597

May 23,1980 Tape No. 1759 AH-2 MR.DAWE: I did not make that statement and I am not aware of anyone who did and if I can try to answer as briefly as I can the half a dozen questions that were asked in the final supplementary I will do so. There is an ongoing programme this year of maintenance and improvements to the existing facilities in the parks . Some of them relate to safety factors, basically,or the major consideration in this relates to fire access roads that would enable people to have safe access from provincial parks should an unfortunate forest fire occur. This will be ongoing in several parks.

We are doing it on a priority basis 1 where the need is greatest. In a number of other parks there is regular maintenance going ahead that will improve the existing facilities. Unfortunately we are in a period of restraint and hold the line and there will be no expansion, specific - expansion to existing provincial parks this coming year. MR.SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. NEARY: The hon. the member for LaPoile. Mr. Speaker, in view of what has happened now since our government here took the position 1 adopted a policy that they would back Alberta in trying to get Canadian oil up to world prices, doe~ the hon.

Premier now think that that was a mistake looking back on it? And what is the present position now of the Newfoundland government concerning this whole matter of Canadian oil being brought up to world prices? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. . -- ---- PREMIER PECKE'ORD: Mr. Speaker, I am going to defer !!o the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry). We had a discussion.on this again this morning, on this issue, and in light of the recent meeting between the Minister of Energy for Canada (Mr. Lalonde l and our own Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) and the disCtJssions which are ongoing on the matter, I will ask the minister to give in detail where we are concerning it. Just let me respond to the general thrust of the hon. member's question myself in the sense that, no, we believe and still support the position that we have taken all along on this and , I think, theevents af recent days have proven us very, very right 4598 -··· --~-- ~-· ---- ·- __ ., ___ -- --·

May 23,;1.980 PREMIER PECKFORD: fur~-MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Sim:ns): member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: T~ No. 1759 AE-3 on it but I have asked the minister to A supplementary. A further supplementary. TM bon. If the Premier cannot answer the question and he has to pawn it off on the Minster of Mines and Energy (Mr.Barry) perhaps I can be mere specific. Does this government now support the removal of the subsidy on oil for Eastern Canada as a. result of this government 1 s backing Al.l:lerta in getting canadian oil. up to world prices?

Does this govermnent agree with the removal of the subsidy which will increase the cost of heating ~el in this Province or a.r1ik they now opposed to that congept of removing the subsidy? Nova Scotia came out this morning strongly aqainst it. Is Nova Scotia goinq to have to fight Newfoundland 1 s battl.e or will. this goverlliii8Ilt here now take the positilon that they are fighting' to have that subsidy continued? 4599 · -~-~---...,..._,_,--- -·- -----~ ... "':~·-#. ---,.,.-

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1760 EL -1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hen. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, this government's position as enunciated at the most recent First Ministers Conference is that the price of Canadian oil, whether we like it or not, is goinq to have to move to world prices over a period of time. We qual.ify that position with the statement that it should be a phased and gradual increase recoqnizinq the hardaip that will be imposed upon the lower income, middle income eamer who is goinq to be hit, particularly in Eastem canada,by risinq energy prices. Mr.

Speaker, what we are seeinq in the Prime ~~ister's Statement is the recoqnition and a reversal in stand. The recognition that the energy position put forw~ by the Liberal administration, by the Liberal Party durinq the past federai election was an untenable one. They have reversed their position, their commitment not to have energy prices increase beca~e they re­ cognize that Canada will be bankrupt if they do not recoqnize the realities of life which is that the price of oil is beinq inexorably forced up- war4 by circumstances beyond the control of any Canadian.

I ~uld just like tc.malteone 1110re point, Mr.Speaker, 'that when the hon. member refers to Nova Scotia, he should remember that this Province, fortunately, is in a much different energy position than is the Province of Nova Scotia or many other of our sister provinces in that - have a larqe undeveloped hydro Al.ectric resource, which,with the proper assistance from the Federal ~ll:1liiiiUltLwe can see suhatlt:ute for much of our pres-t oil needs and which - can see ensure stabl.e cost enerqy 1 forever iDto the, fut:are, once it is on streiiiD,because it'. · will not be forced upwud by the decisions of the oil shieks of the Middle East or wherever, as the price of oil is and as the price of oil will continue to be as lonq as we are i~ortinq from foreiqn countries who can call. the shots because there is more oil in demand than is beinq supplied. 4600

May 23, 1980 MR. SPE.!\XER (Simms) : for LaPoile • Tape No. 1760 EL - 2 A final. supplementary, the hon. member MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman just put his finger on the key to this whole matter when he mentioned un- developed potential hydxo resources. Undeveloped - they have been un­ developed now for eight years since this crowd took over, and that is precisely the point.

And I asked the hon. gentleman in the beginning, or I hinted,probably he could anticipate what my supplementarY might be" as long as these resources are undeveloped, the consUIIIers in Canada' s poorest province , where we have record unemployment , the second lowest income in Canada, what will it mean in terms . once they blend the canadian price with world prices J What will it mean in terms of increase in the cost of heating fuel and electricity in this Province? Surely, the minister must have takeztcl look ~"'t this. Looking dcwn the road .three, five, se~n years,.

What will it mean, as long as these resources are undeveloped,and apparentlt they are not going to be dev­ eloped with this c%0Wd,- What will it mean in terms of increases in electricity rates to the oonSUIIII!rs of electricity and what will it mean in the way of increases in heating fuel in this Province? --- ------ - MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, we finc1 that the Government of Canlilia is still developing its energy policy.

It has not yet put figures on · the very, and I stress, very, general principles which it baa. ca.mmicated to !.his government · and I asSUllle to the other governments of canada. It speaks about a blended price for oil which is to be made up of three different prices; & price for conventional oil, a price for sp~~t:ir::: and possibly frontier oil, they say, and the price of imported oil . and somehow this · ls r.il.l going to be blended together to get. one price and the subsidy on imports is going to be gradually, I 4601 . "'-------·- ·-- - -----~-~---.~~-

May 23, 1980 'rape No. 1760 EL - 3 MR. t. BARR!: understand, remcved. So, we de not ha .ve sllffieient information from the Federal Government with respect to their energy policy • :It is unfortunate but when I got back from ottawa and studied the document tAat had been delivered to me by Mr. LaLonde, I found a ve.ry general statement of principles and ve.ry little else contained in it. Mr. SptUker, one t:hinCJ that was <XIn­ tained in the statelllellt, however, was that the Federal GoverDIIIent is COIIIIIIi ted to substi tutil:lq 4602 --- -- ----· .. - ... -. -.~--

May 23 , 1980 Tape 1761 . EC- l MR.. L. BARR%: other sow:ces of enerqy for foreign imports of crude oil. Now this is the point that we have to keep first and fora.ost in our lllinda, that if they are qoinq to try to sllbstitute other fonas of en•Z"i~Y• they cannot, they JDUSt not ignore the undavalopad hydro potential of La.Qraclor. And they will, MJ:.Speaker, have the SaJIIIII obliqation to aasist in the development of that resource as they have already adopted with respect to development of syucrada, Tar SaDds , nuclear power plants - PRI!:~R PEC!CP'ORD: lllelAOD River • Ma. L.

BARR% 1 - the Melson River project in Manitoba and other enerqy projects. They will have to face up to their obllqation to Eastern Canada to nlllllber one, assist financially in gettinq this qre&t resource deV8loped, and number two, in t.akinq action to malta sura that no province can block the free move1111111t of enarqy from La.Qraclor to other parts of Canada. SOMB HOM. MEMBERS: Bear; hear! _MR. SPEAD:R (S~) : Order, please! MR. G. FLIGHT: A supplementary. - -- ----- MR. SPBAICER: ord&r;- plaaiie!-I indicated a final supplaant.ary to that question. 'lhe hoD.. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.. D. J~a Y-, Mr.

Speaker. On & new - in a. aense, ......_- naw line, just ana question. 'lhe hon. the MiDister of MiDas and Enerqy (Mr. L. Barry) assured the House quite s~ waeka aqo, and inc1ead, I think in the .last session aa well, that- would be very soon seeinq sa- of the work of the Hawfoundl •nd and LaQr&dor Development Corporation. I think - of it wu supposed to haV8 beell a~able in April and - IIDrfl of it in May. We- are IIOif up to the 2lrd of Mq, as I recall. - MR. I.. B.IIRRY: Lower Olurchill. Mlt. D. JAMIESON t On the Laver Churchill - did I - I am sorry, the I.Qwer Olw:chill De-lDl-nt Corporation.

Given the proposition which he has just stated and which it is not hard to aqree with with reqard to the necessity to develop unda'ftll.oped resou.rces but I pres~, ·and if wr pr&aiJIIII?tiOD i.a correct then rll'.f question is, 4603

May 23, 1980 Tape 1761 EC- 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: ~en will the studies be completed so that we can see just exactly where we are likely to be going with regard to the Lower Olurchi.ll Development? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): 'lhe hon. the Minister of Mines iUld Ezler9Yo MR. L. B~: Mr. Speaker, I think just to get the record straiqht, I said that we would be seei.nq, the govenD&Ilt would be seeing these reports, a.ncl the decision as to when this information will be a~le to the Bouse or to the p'Ublic is gbing to have to be a cabinet decision once the reports are in.

But at the present tilla the reports appear to be, as I understand, on schedule. I have sean preliminary reports. They will first go to the Board of Directors of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and that corporation will in turn lUke re=-ndaticnw to govemDnt, and I upect that by the and of this month we should be in recei.pt of reco-.ndations from Newfo\llldland iUid Labrador Hydro Corpora&ion. MR. D. JAMIESON: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAICER: A supp~tary 1 the hon. the I.eader of the Oppoai.t:ion.. MR. D.

JAMIESClh Clwiallaly 1 Question Period is not the @ICOPriate pl&CII to get the 1UndB of anavers that I. us looltiAq for. I &Ill a llttle puzzled as to why they would go to NewfoUDdla.ncl and Labrador Hydro first. ~ is an arran~t bet:w- go~nt:a, that is. a fedezal/ provinciU corporation. Wo~d they not under nozmal ci.r~tanc- go to gOVII~t fint as fro. 111-fovndl and Hydro? 11bat ia the rationale behind that particular route?

I dakiat llllderstand why, for ezaiiiPle, the Lowu Churchill Cozporat:ion abould not subm.t its f~ or its concluaiOIIS to the ~ of canada and of lllewfoundland, a.ncl out of that then, would flow - kind of ~icat:ion. to N-t.oundland Hydro. Why is it the other way around? MR. SPEADR• 'Dla bon. the Miniater of Mines and Ener9Y. MR. L. BARRrr Hr. Spulter, the Lower Churcl1ill. Oev.lopaclt Corporation ia an affiliate of Newfoundland and IMIM:a.dor Byd..-o and the J!lrovince' s 51 per Ctlllt ~P of that corporation is hel.d tly 4604

May 23, 1980 Tape 1761 EC- 3 MR. :r.. BMIBX• the Hydro COrporation, t:hat i.s nUIIIbar 01111. Raber a.o, the Hydro Corporation ia the auU.n body wi.th respect to uaiat.iDq govu:-nt aDd ~ Dep&z1:a8Jlt of Mines anci Energy iD the fo .zaalation of •l.ec:t:ri.c&l. ~ pol.ic:y, 4605 :?O~:'·"''l:.,i.·· . ' ~·

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1762 NM- 1 MR. BARRY: and the strategy with respect to the. Lower Churchill development has to be co-ordinated with the overall provincial energy strategy, and that is why we will ... ant to have the report assessed by the Hydro Corporation and recommendations from the Hydro Corporation in turn brought to government. But I do not anticipate any lengthy delay in that assessment because Hydro has been moving with LCDC and has been involved in the course of the preparation cf the report. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hen. member fo:- St. Barbe. MR. BENNETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have been trying to make an effort to get this question to the ~linister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that I understand the hen. Minister of Rural Development will be in ~~e area in which this question is so all important and it will undoubtedly come up, I would like for the minister to tell the House- relating to the fish plant at cow Head where we have e;verything in place, I think the mini.ster is well aware of the problem without my elaborating' we need a water supply -- . to the fish plant that presently exists and we· have hundreds of people unemployed.

We have many longliners in there. We are led to believe, or we understand from T-J. Hardy that he is prepared, willing and able to create a cash flow of something in the order of $4 million and to me it is a big opportunity. Mr.

Speaker, at present there is a study being done, I understand, by the federal department for major harbour development, I am not quite sure of the areas they are looking at, probably Parsons Pond, Cow Head, and as the minister must be aware, if we do not have this upgrading in operation this year then we are afraid that the Feds will say, "You did not produce fish last year, you did not have enough fi:sh · to justify our investment, a major investment, millions of dollars for major harbour facilities in that general area," i!Jld I am wondering if the minister would have emergency funds available to activate to, indeed,put this problem to rest?

MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Rousing. 4606 -------· ·----·-· ·---- -.-- ~- __ ____ ,._ --- -- ----~

May 23, 1980. Tape No. 1762 NM- 2 MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, yes ,we a~e certainly very well aware of the problem in Cow Head. We have a report that was completec recently by some consultants on tfle situation there ., a very exhaustive report, I might say, a very thorough one that went into not only the provision of a water supply for Cow Head, and for the fish plant that is being built there, but also,in fact, looked at some potential for the fisheries there and what potential there might be for expansion of that fish plant and other fish plants in future.

The reason for that was to compile the data that was required to make a proper recom:nendation on the type and size of the water system that would be required for Cow Head. We are now looking at it and my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (.Mr. Morgan) and I are considering ways and means of overcoming this problem. The fish plant is being built bv private enterprise and I am not sure that it is the municipality's responsibility to provide a water supply to the fish plant.

Obviously, there is some responsibility there because the municipal system needs some substantial upgrading in order to be able to provide a supply sufficient to meet the demands of this fish plant which. is now far in excess of the plant that was there previously. Previously, the plant used a temporary plastic waterline system that went across the beach. and now they are going to be requiring, I think ,a four or six inch waterline which uses a tremendous amount more water than was available previously and that is,indeed,available from the existing system. We are looking at it.

I do not think it is going to be possible to put in a ccmpleta system for this year. Certainly it would not be possible to get it there in time anyway, simply because of the time construction. However, we will be looking at ways and means of providing some sort of temporary relief this year if we can at all. MR. SPEAKER (Silmns) : The hon. member for St. John's West. MR. BARRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question for the hon. the Premier. There has been a great deal of concern expressed in the 4607

May 23, l'l80 Tape No. 1762 NM- 3 MR.~: City of St. John's the last few days concern.inq ~ announcement by the bon. William Bompkey, Newfoundl.and' s only representative in the Federal cabinet in ottawa. Can the Preati.er enlighten us as to what the present position is With. respect to the deciston on the synohl;olift. The synchrol:ift in the City of St. John's was basical.ly aqreed to - MR. FLIGR'.r: (Inaudilllel away. MR.~: - I am sorry -some t:i::me aqo and there seems to be, now, some hedqinq on tbe federal qovenmiSJit' s part as to whether or not the'." intend to proceed with this? MR. NEARY: MR • .

CAaTER: MR. NEARY:: MR. SPEAKER(Si.mms) : PREMIER PECICFORD: MR. NEARY: MR. CARTER: MR. S~: PREf!aER · PECU'O~: (Inaudible) for ~ first time. Order! What .about the intended - The hen. the Premier. Yes, Mr. Speaker, r aDt extremely - Crosbie ·is qoi.nq to get the contract. Order! O%:der, please! -I aDf extremely concezne4 about that whole stnc::hrolift situation and after the announcement, or the statement r should say, by the Minister of National Revenue, Mr. Raapkay, I :immediately wired his office to express 1fl':l conce:m and shock at the statement 4608 ---·--- --·------ -·

~ay 23, 1980 Tape No. 1763 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: in the sense that it seemed like the whole project was being re-assessed. One can understand a cost escalation being re-assessed because a whole bunc~ of things had changed in the sense of the~location and the dimensions of the yard but it still has a lot of viability to it. So we have expressed our concern to ~r. Rompkey and to the Federal Government and we are eagPr for them now to move on towards calling tenders and getting the first phase of that synchrolift started this year.

And we will leave no stone untuzned to ensure that that project becomes a ~eality. c!R. SPEAKER· (Simms): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. I would like to welcome to the galleries on behalf of all hon. members a group of students from the Grade Eight C±Yics class from the Integrated Elemen­ tary School in Norris Arm, in the district of Lewisporte ,along with their teacher Mr. Pleman Menchenton and we hope that they will enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome to the gallery today the newly elected President of the Labrador Inuit Association 1 Miss Fran Mcintosh accompanied -- - by the Advisor Mary Si.~lett. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. HOOSE: The hon. Minister of Health . Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Generic Dispensing Prescription Drug Act". MR. SPEAKER: Any further notices? The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment. 4609

)1ay 23. 1980 '!'ape No. 1763 DW - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: ~r. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, •An Act To Amend The Attachment Of Wages Act". P.nd also an"Act To !'.mend The Landlord And Tenant Residential Teium~~ Act of 1973". MR. SPEAKER (Simms) An~ further notices? The hon. the President of the Council. MR W.

MARSHALL: ~~- Speaker, on behalf of the ~inister of Fisheries I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce ~he following bills, "An Act To Amend The Fishing Ship Bounties Act~; "An Act To-Amend The Fishing and Coastal Vessels R,ehuildinq And :l.epai:ss Bounties Act"oand: "An Act To Amend The Fisheries Loan Act". MR.· SPEAKER: Any further notices? ..., PRESEN'rnTG PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I will not take too much time of the House.

I have a~petition signed by 40& teachers and students of Mary Queen of the World High Schbol on the issue of the French Education Programme and since the hon. minister has clarified that I simply table it for the information of the House. MR. B. ROBBRl'S: MR. N. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: (Inaudible) you . mean sh• straighteM4- it out. r r am very pleased wiTh it. ' Any further petitions? The hon. Minister of Tourism. Recreation and Culture. 4610

__L___ -- -~~-·- ~lay 23, 1980 Tape No. 1763 DW - 3 ~R. R. DAV."'E: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition signed by 674 residents of Codroy Valley.

The prayer of the petition,"We the undersigned residents of Codroy Valley humbly request that the Government of Newfoundland and Labra- dor undertake at the earliest possible date the construction of a new and permanent bridge spanning the Grand Codroy River at the same site of the old structure at Upper Ferry. ~ealizing the economic change in Codroy Valley and in Codroy in particular - fw:ther request that the existing bridge at Millville be maintai~ed on a permanent basis". In 1923 , Hr.

S?eaker, the construction on the bridge at Upper Ferry began and continued for th ree years, a lot of the work being done by hand, concrete being mixed in wheel barrows and so on. The bridge spanned 1,144 feet across the Grand Cedro~ Rive:>:: and in terms of today' s traffic wu a single lane bridge. It served the communities of the Codroy Valley wel~~ver that period of time until 197B;when a sudden thav .i fn -January of 1978 caused part of the bridge to collap ,se and subsequently the rest of the bridge soon fol- "'--r _ __ - l~over a twenty-four hour per~od.

Over that period of time the communities centred around the bridge as if it were the~hub of a wheel; churches were built, schools were built, the co-operative store was built, doctors offices were established,all basically with the bridge being the centre of actiy_i._ty. The loss of the bridge caused some considerable~disc:omfort· would probably be a very mild w~~~- It affected not only the social activi- ties of Codroy Valley 1 it also affected the economics.

And I am sure that if any hen. members care to speak to any af my colleagues, either in Cabinet or private members, they will realize that they are probably as familiar -- ¥··- -- 4611 7

May 23, 1990 Tape No. 1764 so - 1 MR. R. DAWE: with the bridge and the problems it has created in the Codroy Valley as anyone. The wo:dt was undertaken to propose a design to replace the bridge in the same site.

These engineering studies, however, :revealed that the type of ground, t!1e sand conditions of the river were ve:ey similar to those experienced in the construction of the North West River Bridge in that it was virtually impossible to construct a bridge based on normal procedures and that very special %Wqllirements would have to be met in order to build this bridge because of the sand conditions in the river bottom. The cost estimates on the bridge have risen to the vicinity of about $8 million to replace the bridge in that present site.

And subsequently, government has prepared a submission to DREE which is now in the process of going through the necessa:ey channels in order to have DREE funding to put the bridge baclc in the s- place a.s it was before. Mr. Speaker, I ~ld add my support to thi.s petition and ask that it be referred to the departlllent concerned. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SP!!l\XER (SiiiiDIS) : The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, as hon. mellbers know. the district that my bon. friend represents, wbo just presented the petition, it borders on the great district of LaPoile.and everytime I go down to my district, go down to Port aux Basque and I hold member's clinics- in Port awt Basque I get as many people cominq from the Codzoy Valley to s- - a& co.e from fiiY own distrist of LaPoile. They are wry conc:arned .OOUt this matter, Mr. Speaker, and wry concerned about the lack" of action on the p&rt of the gow:cu.nt. 'lhis bridge was praa.ised to the people of the COdroy Valley ~ HEllfo -MEMBJm: Three years aqo. MR. s.

NEARY: - Three years ago they wen told that the bridqe would be replaced by the provincial government, that they would ask for no federal input in this bridge. Now the minister has disc!osed today 1in presenting a petition on behalf of his constituents, that the thing is going to be stalled ·and held up because flow they have to make 4612 'I

( May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1764 SD - 2 MR. s. NEJIRY: an application to DREE because of the escalation of the cost. Before the member was elected in that district of St. George's, ministers went down there, flew down in helicopters and told the people that that bridge was goinq to be replaced. The people are very concemed now, Mr. Speaker, that the bridge is qoinq to be, if it ever is built, relocated which will cause a tremendous inconvenience to the people who live in that azea because,as the hon. gentleman has said,"everythinq is centered azound the old bridge.

The people are satisfied for the 1110111e11t with the bridge that is there, they would like, also, to ha- that bridge kept in place in case of emergencies after the new bridge is built. But the people are no wiser now than they were when the hon. gentleman presented the petition. The govemment are now reneqinq on their collllllitment to build that bridge. I can see what is going to happen down the road, MJ:. Speaker, they are qoinq to pawn the blame off now on DREE in Ottawa and in another six months or a-year they will • say, well, WI! asked DEE, they would not give 'ils any money •.

But let - reiterate what I just said, that when the cCIIIIIIIit11111nt was made by the Tory administration in this Province, the people in that district Wllre told the bridge would be replaced, would be replaced u quickly as possible, that it would be replaced by the p:rovinc:ial qove=-nt and that they would ask for no federal money to put the bridqe there • . -. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. . ----- ··- MR. SPEAKER (S~): Are tha:r:e any further petitions? 4613

M,ay 23, 1980 Tape No. 1764 so - 3 OBDERS OF TBE DAY Motion, the hon. the Ministe .r of Finance to intz:odllce a bill, •liD Ac:t Reapectinc;r Ita. Inc:nase Of Certain Pension!!•. Carried. (Bill No. 42) On IIICtion, Bill No. 42 J:eAd a first ti-. o.zdezed xead a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the bon. the Minister of l!'inance t10 iatz:oduc:e a bill, •AD Ac:t To llllend The Financial Administration 1\c:t, 1973". Carried. (Bill No. 49) on motion, Bill No. 49 read a fint'"ti~~~e, ordered J:lllad. a secpnd time on tomorzow 4614 --· .... ---- --.. -~........,.--- ·

(" May 23,1980 . Tape No. 1765 AH-l .MOtion, the hon. the Minister of Y.ines and Enerqy to introduce a bill, "An Act To ~corporate The Ne_wfoundl.and And Lab:i:ador Petroleum Corporation;·'~ carried. (Bill No.50) On motion , · Bill No. 50 read a first tillle ordered read a sec ·ond time t01110rrow. Motio%1, the hen. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and BOilSinq . to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amtmd The City Of st. Jo~'s Act," carried. (Bill No. 54) On motion, Bill No. 54 read a first time ordered read a second time t01110rrow. -:::.

Moti.on, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend certain Taxation statutes," carried. (Bill No. 53) on iaotion, Bill No. 53 read a first time ordered read a se<;:ond time tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Enerqy to introduce a bill, "An Act To ' Amend The Electrical. Power Control Act," carried. (Bill No. 55) on motion, Bill No. 55 read a first time ordered read a.- second tiJne toDID:rrow. MR. !GRS:EU\LL: OZder ·s, Bill No. 13. On motion>, a bill, "An Act To Protect The EnVironment Of the Provinca By Providing- For EnvirollllleJltal.

Assessment, " read a third time, ordered passed and . its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 13) • MR. MARSJmLL: order 6 Bill No. 16 .• On motion, a bill,"An Act Respecting. 4615 ----- ----- -- - -

,- May 23,1980 Tape No. 1765 AII-2 The Establishment Of A Newfoundland And Labrador Arts <;:ouncil," read a third t.illte, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 16) MR. MARSHALL: order 7 Bill No. 12. On motion, a bill, "An Act To Provide For Natural Areas Il1 The Province To Be Set Aside For The Benefit, EQm:atiqn And Enjoyment Of Present And Future Generations In The Province," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 12) MR.

MARSHALL: Order 8 Bill No. 46. on motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Workers' Compensation Act," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 46) MR.MABSHALL: Order 9 Bill No. 44. On IIDt.iOD that the Reuse resol 'Ve itself iDto' & co.d.~ o~ the Whole ou said Bill, Mr. Speaker left the Olair. COMML't'lti ar THE WHOIB ---·¥--¥ 4616 ~- -· ·-- --- -- .. "--- ... -· •• ----- •-••· • -·---- -a-• • .;;e_ :.;~ .. ~ _.._. .. ~ ..... 'l.t'f.; ~- ._ ... J.:r.~~ ~:"'~ .........

Hay 23, 1980 Tape No. 1766 EL - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Butt) : Order, please! Bill No. 44. Shall Clause 2 carry . The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. l'REMIER PECKFORD: Mr .Chai:z:mal'l, I wguld like to make a few comments on the design. I think that is what we are on right now as it relates to the flag. And in so doing, I would just lilte to make a few general comments, if I may be allowed, if I have the permission of the members of the House. MR. NEAU: Hr. Chairman, we have no objection, as long as we can malte a few general comments too.

PBBM!ER PECKFORD: Well, I will - Mr. Chairman, if the hon . members think I am out of order anytime, there is a procedure that can be followed and that is- SOME HON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh PREMIER PECKFORD: - through point of orders iUld - MR. CHAIRMAN: Is it agreed that the hen. the Premier - MR. S. NEARY: Yes, if we can have a few general comments too. JIIR • MARSHl!U.: We do not need leave. We do not spealt by (inaudible) to the Opposition. PREMIER PECICI!'ORD : Well , Mr. Chairman, I intend to spealt on the desicpi. a~~d I think that is the matter that · is applicable right now.

And, therefore, I am completely in order and completely relevant. AN BON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. MR. CBAl:RMAN: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECICFCRD : So, I. wish to speaic on the desiCJil. I think that is the

section that we are under now under the Act aDd I will so do. In so doing, Mr. Chairman , in talking about this design and my 4617 -- - ---·------ -- ··--- -~- -- .... .,,.-.-- ,~- !,-,,:·" .·:·

May 23, 1960 Tape No. 1766 EL - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : support for this design, I would like to make it clear to hon. members, some of whom who have taken the opportunity on a number of occasions, especially on the other side of the House, and other people in the public to try to accuse me of not supporting the design or somehow not being_ in favor of the design by the mere fact that up to this point in time, I had not spoken in the delfate in the House of Assembly. And the prillli!Lry reasone for that, of course, Mr.

Chairman, was because I wished to hear, seeing it is in my name, from most of the hon. members in the House, before so speaking, so that when I did speak I would have the benefit of the discussion and debate by many of the hon. members. It is a very, very important piece of leg- islation 1 it is a very very important topic and ,therefore ,I thought it best to do it this way. I do apologize, Mr. Chairman, to the !!o11Se, that I was not present the other day, on Tuesday.

I had organized to be here ~d to leave late Tuesday night to go to ottawa •• rimarily, because one of the best friends 1: had in the world suddenly dropped deado~ I thon'Tht it important that I attend a funeral for a friend of mine in my constit- uency and hence why I was not here to speak on it on Tuesday.- I got back yesterday from ottawa. New, the design, Mr. Chaizman, and the whole question of sODB of the thinqs that have been said about this whole flag debate and this particular deeign.

I find it very very, what shall I say, ununa.l to say the leaat, that so many hon. lllelllbez:s have tried to accuse this side of the House and the Government and mysel.f of trying to push thzough this particular desig~~. Not ouly to try to push it throuqh, Mr. Chai%11111n, but that the whole process has been somehow unseemlYi that the whole process has been so-how autocratic, that the whole process has been somehow andeDDcratic, 1;hat the whole issue of this design - 4618 ----·· ,...------ ... -~':""""- 4'-:,;:·v ,;.· ~·---- - <!"~·

May 23, 1980 SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. S. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORO: completely - MR. S • N'EARY: PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr. Chainum, this design - SOME HON. MEMBERS • MR. CBAJ:RMJIN ( Bll'tt) : PREMIER PECKFORO : Tape No. 1766 EL - 3 Oh, oh ! You finally got the (Inaudible) . Well, Mr.Chairman, I reject that You finally got (inaudible) • - categorically . I reject t.'1at completely . Oh, oh ! Order, please! - this design came about after this bon. House, every single member of this hen. House voting in favor of the establishment of a Select Committee to bring in a specific design.

The hen. the Leader of the Opposition, the bon. the member for LaPoile (S. Neary), the hen. member for St. Barbe (T. Bennett), all members of this House, all the members on this side, all the members oa that side agreed to this procedure, agreed to it wholeheartedly, knowing full­ well, Mr. Chairman, that at the end of the day,which 'happened to be at the end of april, 1980 1 there would come before this hen. Cha.ber a specific design- MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of Order. Order, please! PEMXER PEC:KFORD: ;- a specific design and that is the design that we have at the present 1110111ent. MR.

CHAIRMAN : hen. the member for LaPoile. MR. s. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! A point of order, the I merely rise to point out - Order, please! ! cannot hear the hen. member 's point of order. WOuld you please start again. MR. NEARY: Yes, the Premer is not being relevant. But, I do not mind, Mr. Chai%man, because I under.tand that we have agreement that we can be as general as the Premier when we are replying to him. Is that con:ect?? 4619 ----- -- - -·--- · -- --- ---- -

May 23, 1980 MR. CBAIIIMAN (Butt): MR.~: gentleman is out of order. MR. MAliSBALL: MR. CBJU1tMAN :- Jwaid~t of the COuncdl. .......-.... Tape No. 1766 EL ~ 4 No, that is nOt correct. Well, if it is not correct, the hon. 'l'o the point of onier, Mr. Chairman. To the point of order, the hon. the MR • .MARSSALL: Mr. Chairman, this is not a point of order. '1'he hon. the Premier is talkinq about the design artd malcinq remarJca with respect to design. He is perfectly in oriier. Now, the h6n. the member fo2: LaPoile (S.

Neary) has been co:t~tinually,both here in comadttee and in tla House, fz:Qm time to time, qettinq up on what are obViously specious points of order for the puxpose of bei.nq able-MR. "!BBMS: (Inaudible) your side. MR. W. JmBSBALl.: - for the p~UPCse of beinq able to in- ject his ideas frca the point of view of debate and ~s is cansinq,i.J:l itself 1a disOrdel: in the Committee when people get up on obviously :sPurious 4620

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1767 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: points of order, this type of thing. You just cannot conduct - AN HO:N. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. MARSHALL: You cannot conduct a 1ebate in a rational fashion and Your Honour will find authority in Beauchesne that I have quoted before, that it is a violation of the privileges of the House to rise up on spurious points of order because - for obvious reasons. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : To the point of order, I would rule there is no point of order . In referring you to the relevancy rule 1 299 on page 98 in Beauchesne, "Relevancy is not easy to define .

In borderline cases the member should be given the benefit of the doubt." In this particular case I will give the hon. the Premier the benefit of the doubt. The hon . the .Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, I am talking about the design and how we arrived at this particular design which is important, because . . there has been a lot of discussion concerning the procedure used to have the particular design now under discussion. And what I am trying to point out and to contend and to submit to this hon. C011111tittee is that the process and the procedure that was used was extremely democratic and free.

And not only that, Mr. Chairman, this administration stands by not only the Select Committee as it related to the flag but other select committees and advisory councils which are being established through legislation almost daily here in this hen. House, to demonstrate the desire of this government to ensure that the things that it d6es have the proper and legitimate public input that is necessary for major public policy developments to come about. And it was done in this case. So it was not undemocratic, it was free and democratic.

And not only that, it was done by all members of this House of Assembly knowing full well that a specific design would be coming forward. And hence we all have to share our own ~parts of that responsibility and I gladly accept it and am happy that it happened that way, that procedure ·Was free, it was democratic and it was done in a great way. 4621 .

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1767 NM- 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: A second point on the design and on the whole debate, Mr. Chairman, would simply be I find it somewhat disturbing that hon. members, those who have- spoken and that I have heard, most of whom I have heard, I find it somewhat disturbing because. the debate on this particular bill, and on some other bills that we- have had, but particularly now on this bill and on this design, I do not know if hon. members fully realize what we are doing here. MR. FLIGHT: No, we do not.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Because a lot of the comments that have been made seem to suggest to me that we are just dealing with another ordinary,mundane piece of legislation, a very small little amendment. or something to some existing legislation, housekeeping legislation almost. I do not get the sense,from a lot of the speeches by hon. members,that we are making history here, that we are talking about something that is going to be permanent for all time, not just for the hon. member for Bonavista North Is (Mr. Stirling) time·, not just for my time, not just for the member for Grand Bank 1 s (Mr.

Thoms), not just for the member for Windsor-Buchans 1 (Mr. Flight) time, but for all time, for perpetuity, for eternity. And yet we look upon some of these things and place upon this kind of concept a very particular personal preference , as if the hon. gentlemen so proposing it is going to be here to enjoy or to dislike that particular symbol for all tilDe. What a narrow and rather less than elevated concept or approach to take to such a very important matter. And I find it on both sides. I find that the debate on this particular piece of legislation should be most - MR. STIRLING: You should ~~sult everybody.

PREMIER PECKFORD: -most elevated, because we are dealing with somethinq which is of such importance for the lonq-te:rm, and tha11' is not ' the right phraseology, because lonq-term is usually now •applied to things that are for a life time. We are talking about eternity. We are talking about perpetuity. We are talking about all tima. And hence when one has to look at trying SCMB' HON". MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~ 62.2 - -----·--- -- ·--··---····------ - · - ·-·----- --~- ----.---

May 23, 19.80 PREMJ:ER. PECKFORD: interrupted. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): heard in silence. PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape No. 1767 NM ""'3 Mr. Chai:cnan, if I can speak without beinq Order, please~ The hon. Pramier wiShes to be If we are lookinq :t SOlllet:Iu"ng for all t:illle then surely. surely it behooves us to look at t.hiJ:lqs that can be appreciated one hundred years f:rolll now, to use our best efforts, our best vision, to use our best imagination, to use our best creativity, to look at another 600, 000 or 700, 000 Newfoundlanders in the year 2080 and how they will feel about a particular symbol which is called a· 4623 ._, __ - ~. --- -- _.....__ ---·

May 23, 1980 Tape 1768 EC - l PRBMD!:R PECU'ORD 1 flaq. And I always think- of awry time whan I . read a letter to the editor or hear s~ COIDIIJltinq either in this House or outside on the flaq the first thinq th&t hits my llli.nd is, 'When s~mraya c:rawn thy pine clad ~' - our pine clad hills wbicb. .are no more. OM can have a great =-ant on why they are no ~mra, but the fact of the -ttsr is, is it an AD&c:hzonism, it hu sort of outlived ita uaefulneas only froa the point of vi- - MR. F. BONE: MR. OlAD1.MAN (Butt) : for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. R)WE: Mr. Chairman, a point of order.

A· point of order, the hon. the -.bar Yesterday the hon. the Gove:mD*I.t House Leader (Mr. w. Marshall) and the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collirul) rose on nu..roua occuions when my friend f~ L&Poile (Mr. s. Neacy) wu spaakinq on a point of order, accuai.Dq the member for L&Poile of speakinq on the principle of the bill and not addrassinq himself eatirely to the particular clauaa in the bill UDder disc:'Wision. Naw, since the laatpoint · of' . _order was raised, the hon. the Premier has not mentioned,except the wom, anythinq with reference to the dedc;n of the fl&CJ.

How, I personally do not llind the Premier speak.inq oa. the principle of this bill. He hu 'a.ntiODed the progeduraa, the -thodology that baa been used, he has ts.lked about the nature o~ the debate up to this point in tiJa, he has talked about the syllbollsa in the flaq and all other kinlb of thiDqs ucept the duic;n.

Now', I panOD&l..ly do not llind the Pralllier talkinq about the principle of the bill in this eo-ittee of the 'Wbola, but yaaterday, -Oil this sida were ruled out of order on n~ occuioaa for C&ErYiDcJ on with ~Y tha •- type of debate the Praiar ia carryinq on with -. -- .... _ And I fiDd. it a little hit diat'IUDinq, Mr. <l!..u-- aDd I .a not t:hrolfinq aoc:QSatioaa at the Ol.air on this partic:ul.ar point - hut I find it particularly distw:binq when on oa.e day IIIUibera oil this side are auzzled froa de.U.tinq froa the ezact daai.c;n of the 4Jl&q, because - ar& dealUlq with a clause, and the -zr next morninq, the Premier is allowed to carry on on basically what surely aust ba intupreted u ·~ta · oA. th& .Prt.nciple 4624 -~- -·-- -·- --·· ·-~--- · ------- - .:·7I:-:~~~-.:~ -

May 23,1980 Tape 1768 :SC - 2 MR.. F~ ROWE: of the bill. Now, you cannot have your cake and. eat it too. We either have to widen the debate during this Committee staqe or keep the debate narrow as we had it yesterd&y. We c:aJUIQt have it both ways. 'lh&t is the point that clistuzba - and that is the point of order that I 1111 tryinq to make, that if the Prud.er is allowed to carry on in the way he ill carrying on DOW 1 that IIIUibers on this side be allowed to do exactly the s- thing. 50MB BOll. M&IIBERS I Oh, ob! MR. If. MARSaAI.I. 1 To the point of order, :~. oaau-. MR.

CIIAUMAN (Butt): To the point of order, the bon. the Presidant of the council. MR. W. MARSHALL 1 I shall try to lllilke a co11D81lt on it briefly, Mr. Ol.airman. I heard the hon. the Premier. All t."le hon. the Premier is doing is talking about the desi9Jl. Alii BON. MENBERz Oh, yea. MR. w. MaRSIIALL I Oh, yu, -u, that is fine. But, I you IDow, the. hon1 qent.laman - DQW • _I will just say this, the hon. gentleman may have been out of the Chuber at the time, but the fact of the lll&tter • i.5 tbat this hu already been d&Ut:. with. 'Dle hon. the t>Nm.er is a&iruaing himself to the Ja&ttar of the daaiqn.

J: would point out that tha hon. the .allber for 'l'riD.ity -Bay de Verda (Mr. P. JloWe) when he waa apeaki~M), vu one of the people over on the other side who vu OOII(ll&ininCJ IUid cutinq soaawh&t s-.1-inaulting lanquaqe - becauae the bon. the IMIIber far Trin.ity - Bay de Verda cloea a.ot cut insul t.iA1J ~ - towards the. Pz:ellier ¥ben he waa spe&kinq 1 about hill IIDt ,apeM.in!J in the debate. Now, if the hon. qen~ wiahes to hear the n.- of the Prem.er, if he ia aiDcere that he really wishea the P~er to u:preaa hia new. on the fl.aq whare he vu un&'VOi~ly .m.ent at the tia. for a very - SOMB HOI!I.

MEMBERS 1 Oh, oh! JOt. CHAiliiUK I Order, plaue! MR. w. MABSBAI.L I - for a -r:r rationa.l reason, that is fine. But, I _an, - can see the extent ~ly, of the sincerity - 4625 '-':--- ----------- "';or:-~;-_~-- .·._ ..

May 23, l980 Tape 1768 EC- 3 sincerity is probably not the word - but the desil:e of the bon. -.bar to hear the Premier speak. H8 is qoinq to hear the Preaier spe&lt and now he rises Oil a point of order aga.iJI&t it. ML CBAIRIWI (Butt) a parti1:alAr point of order. MR. B • !IQBBRrS: MR. CBAnUfAII: Belle :tsl.a. MR. E. ROBERrS: I. ha,. h8&rd er.JOUC)b to rule on this Mr. dJahPIC, may I say a word? The hoD. the a.mber for the Strait of I want sbiply to respond to the poiilta lll&da by the gentleman from st. Jahn's East (Mr. w. Marshall). We are delighted to hear the P%elllier spqk on this or any other oc::casiOD.

With respect to th:is m&tter, the point on wbicb Your llonOv.r will rule when I fillisb. in jUIIt a -t or two, is the type of debate pemitted at eo.Lttee staqa. I wov.ld siJI()ly point out two tbinqa, n1Dber ol:la, that the Pramier had all()la opportlmitl(' to speak dv.rin9 saconcl readinCJ iUld there is a third readiDCJ debate darinCJ which he will ba invited to speak alonCJ wi tb soma of us, pemaps, and 4626 _...._..,...-:- -~- ·-----~--- ----· --·--- ,..

May 23,1980 Tape No. 1769 AH-l MR.ROBERTS: secondly,that whatever latitude the Premier is allowed, of course, we know Your Honour and the Chair will allow us precisely the same latitude at Committee stage and I venture to say several - MR. THOl1S: No, he will not do it. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I venture to say the Chair will have no choice , the Chair will be impartial and fair,and we will be allowed precisely the same latitude as the Premier is allowed and I venture to say, Mr.

Chairman, that there ·are quite a number of my colleagues who will take advantage of that and enjoy with Your Honour's blessing, I am sure, because Your Honour i3 impartial, the same latitude that will be allowed to the Premier. We look forward to that, Sir. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.CHAIRMAN (Butt): Order, please~ The principle of the bill was debated in great detail during second reading. I would rule there is a legitimate point of order and I would ask the hon. the Premier to confine his remarks to Clause 2 of this particular bill which deals with the design. The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I apologize to the Chair and I apologize to hon. members opposite. I will sum up my remarks on the design by simply saying that there are ~~ee basic principles which are operative here which I think should be considered in talking ~t ~ the. design. One has to do with the distinctiveness of the design arid I think in this particular one we do have that kind of distinctiveness that is needed.

Secondly,! think it must be representativ~and contrary to a lot of opinions that have been made by hon. geetleman opposite and other people who have opposed this particular ' design,! believe it is extremely representative when or.e looks at it in the broadest way that one does. And ~hirdly,the concept ---- ------ - - - of permanence must be there and that is. the :::oncept that I was talking on before I was interrupted and before the point of order. The whole question of permanence is extremely operative here. We are dealing 4 6 2'7 -- --- ---- -- --

--- ---- May 23,1980 Tape No. 1769 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: with a design that is for all time and in looking at it that way we must look at Labrador, we must - and nobody, very much in the debates to date,talked about the design in relation to Labrador. When one looks at different kinds of objects that you can put on a design surely the best one for all time and for permanence - unless we have another glacial age, would be the question of a triangle Eo~ .both geographic parts of the Province because that is,perhaps,the most permanent kind of symbol that one can get. So I would just address my remarks , Mr.

Ghairman, given your ruling 1 to three major concepts which should be operative here and which should take priority over particular personal preferences because we are dealing with something that is so substantial and so permanent and so long•lasting and perpetual that,therefore,it must take a fourth or fifth place to it and that is its distinctiveness, number one, number two, how it is representative of the Province and n~~er three,its permanence.

And when one looks at those three thing~ I think,in this particular desigr. these three qoncepts stand out and the representation is there, the permanence is there, its distinctiveness is there and by the same token there is enough of our past and our history to make this both ·a· design Oii _ ?.u:r -~!\.er_i"t_iige; and, also, one looking forward and trying to put in it symbols which are for all time.

And I think that is what you have -to try to do with a flag. and then you can enter int~the picture, after those three or four concepts are put in,you can enter into the picture,to some degree, your own personal dislike or like.

But it must be tempered with the more long-lasting concepts which are not necessarily important from my personal preference point of view or somebody elses, .because we are not going to be here either to enjoy or to laud or to stand up for that particular symbol in th:.1 .;u.nu:Leds and hundreds of years which will follow us, hopefully, if the world continues to be,-~ : that is what we have to remember. The whole question of Labrador which has not been identified,and sadlyrin talking about a design,to somehow 4628 ~·

May 23,1980 TApe No. 1769 AH-l PREM,IER PECKFORD: put in there a reference or a reflection to the native peop~es of this part of the world, I t.hinlt that is very, very important. . I wa .fl ._rath~ ~ddened,;i.n the de.bate~lic and otherwise,to bear very little said about some reflection of the native people of this Province. And that that is now a part and a symbol in this flaq 1 because that is .ilnportant and they are very, very much a part not only of our past, Mr.

Chairlnan, I hasten to add, but a very, very viallle part of our present and our future because there are a lot of dealinqs that have to go on in this country from the Artie Circle to the _golden _:~i~~~~/ to resolve a whole bunch of things dealing with native peoples and the kind of J."oles no&i.that they have already played both in art and everything else to do with civi.lization, but they will play in the future. And I think when we are looking at this design we must t.629 •

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1770 NM- 1 .... PREMIER PECKFORD: remember that. How do you reflect two geographic regions, Labrador and the Island? How do you reflect your real heritage which happens to be the native peoples who inhabited this· here land centuries and centuries ago ~~d yet project that into the future; And that is done very, very adequately in this particular design. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Chainnan, :r do not intend to take a great deal of time.

I said everything that I wanted to say initially when the bill was brought in and :r will clearly and unmistakably confine my remarks to your ruling with regard to the design of the flag. In the case of the design I said at the outset that my only problem and my overwhelming and irresistible problem was that I simply could not, as the Premier has apparently been able to do, accept this particular design as really being meaningful in any sense of the word in terms of the mandate that was given to the Cammittee.

In terms of what the Committee •s mandate was, I do not have the exact wording here in front of 111a, but there is no question that the Premier was correct when he said that it was unanimously agreed in this House that there would be a design brought in. But there are other things which the Premier said also, today which :r could not have said better myself. r would like to compliment him on the first part of what he said. Because what he said was that this is something for all time, for generations, for hundreds of years.

This is what we are going to have as our flag in this Province. 'Ibis is the gut issue, if you wish. That design standing on the flagpole is going to be the thing which will reflect Newfoundland for centuries to come. Now, I agree totally with the Premier in that regard. I think he has come to the root of the matter and yet although it is so permanent, it is so irrevocable, in his concept at least, although I do not believe,incidentally,that it is that irrevocable, another government 46.30

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1770 NM- 2 MR. JAMIESON: presumably couJ.d change it, as my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) said yesterday. But let us go on the premise, let us go on the premise of its permanency. That is precisely why, precisely why it is scandalous to have it rushed through this House without giving the people of this Province an adequate opportunity to express themselves. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR.

JAMIESON: I fail to see how on things which have substantially less permanency, which are as passing as you couJ.d possibly imagine, things that do not last for more than two or three or four years at the most, there is a profound wish on the part of '!llelllbers of this House to have the public consulted. There are other issues which we are studying into the ground, not just in the current administration, the previous administration was studying them.

When ~~ ask now what it is is going to happen on x item or y item of great significance, in terms of the economy of the Province and the li.lce, it is still being studied. On matters which, although important, are far less important than this ,such as the bilingualism that we talked about this morning, the government . over a period of two or three weeks, received substantially less representations than it has received against this design and, yet, it has decided to change its mind.

And so what can we conclude other than the fact that at least the majority of members opposite have decided to dig in on this particuJ.ar design and to say, "This is the one we are going to have and we are not going to have any other and t.'lere is no point in talking about it any further with tbe people of Newfoundland. " SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. JAMIESON: Mr. Speaker, it is not inconceivable, let me say this in all sincerity, it is not inconceivable that if we had six months or so, and if DR. COLLINS: Where are the 10,000 people? MR. JAMIESON: I beg your pardon? DR.

COLLINS: Where are the 10,000 people that the hon . member talked about ye .sterday? 4631

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1770 NM- 3 MR. JAMIESON: I am hot referrinq - that would be entirely out of order as the hon. qentleman pointed out yesterday when he was sittinq in for the House Leader to talk about demcJlstrations or anythinq of that kind. :tt would be out of order as, I have to remind the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins I, he himself pointed out yesterday. SOME 'BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Mit. J'AllnESON: So 1 therefore 1 I am doinq my level best, doing my level best to respect - . MR. NE!Utt: Early senility. MR.

JAMIESON: - I am doing my level best to keep within what the Minister of Finance ·~ insisting upon. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). lm. JAMIESON: Yes. I am being entirely relevant. OR . COLLINS: I am sorry I embarrassed you. MR . ROBERTS : The minister embarrasses himself. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CllAillMAN (Butt) : 9rder, please! 463Z ~--,--··- ~ .:_ -~ ;:~~:~,~~>~~~~

May 23, 1980 Tape 1771 EC- 1 MR. D. JAMXESOifr When the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins l embarrasses me , it will only be when he has to stand up and !!peak for Nawfoi.Dldland and I aa uhamad of the way in wb.ich he speaks out of botll aides of his mouth at the same time! SOME HOM. MEMBER;: MR. D.~: MR. CIAJ::w.L"'i (Butt): Hear, hear! ADd I would be ashamed - Order, please! I would uk the bon. the Leader of the Opposition to confine his remarks to the design of the flaq. MR. D.

JAMIESON 1 With the qraatest of respect- end, Sir, can r appeal for the protection of the Clair against t.'le inanities of the Minister of Finance? SOME: Baf. MEMBERS: Hear, hea:rl MR. CIIADIMlUi c By all. maans. The Leader of the Opposition wiahes to be heard in silence and that ia hia riqht. SOlE H~. MEMBERS • MR. D. JJUUESOHr Hear, hear! I vaa al.so hopeful that I could be heard in a IIIOdast and a moderate ki.Dd of way, becauae I do not believe that this is the kind of iaaua on wbich - neecSf or ouqht to, at this mo-t in ~ . be UOllainCJ the paaaiona of tha public of this Provinca.

It •- to - that this is an iaaua wbicho qiven the entire liat of thinc;ra with which­ h&ft to concern ou:nelvea - that this ia somethinq that we ouqht to ba able to deal with sensibly and u NevfoUDCUandars who cenainl.y qiv. second placa to ao ona when it ~ - certainly, - on this aida of the Houae, and I f .. l. the •- for ~ opposite, in te:rma of our wish and our desire for a reMn.t.ion of and the ~CJ of aar diat.inc:t.ive idmltity u Nevfoundlandara. .lad it is prec:iael.y for that rea80D that I' want to s .. a ,fl.aq wbich I can rel.&te to. on. deaign shoul.d be ona that I can say, 'Yea, it ia one that I can Ullderst..Dd., that I can say is -thinq that r can be proud of when I see it flyiDq.' And I tell you q'.Ute bonestly and. quite frankly, Mr.

Chairman, that I silllply cannot do that. 4633 ·'

H~ 23, l980 Tape 1771 EC- 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: Naw, I have read the description whic:ll was put on the printed symbol or whatever one calls it, of the flaq that wu distributed, and quite hqnestly, it is so remota and so vaque that I doubt ftry IIIUc:il,indaed,if it is goinq to be of any real llll!aninq or Any ~al siqnificance to anyone. However, let that be a11 it ilay. I.at us aa.aa., first of all, that it will 'qrow' on u.a. 'ftl.a.t is the word that haa been u.ed, I think, by the -=er for st. John • s West (llr. H. Barrett). Let us usaa. that that is so.

ADd I, for one, certain.ly will do everythinq in .y power, raqardless of what others may say, that if this flaq is approved, I will certainly azpect it to qat the respect that a dalmcratically approved flaq deservas. That is a basic and funca-ntal point with 1111!, that this is a de1110cratic ass&lllbly, that we are sittinq in here in the Province of H-foundland. '1'hia is the law makinq orqaniZAtion for the Province of N-foundland. '1'o do other than qive respect to that flaq if it i8 approved by this Bouse ia, in effect, to be goinq aqa.i.Dat the -t funca-ntal, basic dmmcratic institution in the country.

AD.d that is why the onwa on the -jority is so qraat. It is, I suqqaat, surely qroaaly unfair to -.bars on this side of the House whose patrioti&JD., whoae loyalty to this Province is, I hope, not in question, to say to us that - are qoinq to .,.,. to pan this flaq in what hu to be reqllr\Wd as a very sllort period of time, in leqislative tum&, and then expect that we qive it the loyalty whic:ll we are fiDdinq it extremely difficult - to ilu.qine because of our particular positions. I am not speakinq for all.

IIIBbers on this side, there -:r be differences of vi-, so let - talk about it in purely per.aual tezma, in tez:ma of this desiqn. How, let - qo back, Mr.

Spealcar, to what I said a f- -ts aqo, that this qoverm.nt, and pezticulKly since this adlllinistration • because cme hu to apparently lllilka a distinc:tion these dqs betlreen the qove~nt and the current adllliniatration. 'lhis adllin.iatration has said repeatedly and on iml~able occasions that it wishes to be open, that it wishes to have the IIIDSt completa input possible from the .(leople of Newfoundland before it maku decisions llffectinq the f~ture of those people. 4634 . . ---- - ... --- -

May 23, 1980 Tape 1771 EC- 3 MR. D. JAMIESON: on SOllie of those actions they h.ave the. ,.,_Mation of 1118111bars here on this side. There are envircmmental questions we were talkinq about yesterday in whicb. IIIUcb. opportlmity ilaa heu. pzovidad and 1110re will be pro'ri.dad to the peopLe. PREMIER PECD'ORD I Mr. Cb•inMn, a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt} : A point of order, the hon. the P~er.

PRBMIBR PECX!'OBD I liD&udJ]:)lelabllo1ute1y ua hl8an beinq,re- r;rardl- o~- a MilDer of thia Aaae~Dly, X IIN8t stand on my riqht:ll ud my prlvUeqes u a IIIUIDer of this Howle aDd say that J: find. the nmaru of the Leader of the Oppoa.ition - and I wUl sit here until 6:00 P.M. ill1d hear him on anythinq - but fair is fUJ: and unfair is no man's q- 4635 ....,...___.:---- ----- ----·--·- ------·----._..-...... ~._. ______ ------------ . --- -- ... - · ---- ~ - --- -~.:-~ ... ~~-~::.?~;~~- ~-

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1772 PREMIER PEo:FORO: and I think that I, in my speech a few minutes ago, was being just as relevant as the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. o. Jamieson). so - 1 I point out to this hon. House that I have no objections and it was not a matter of giving special of anything for the Leader of the Opposition to continue with his :remu:!ts.f but I must point out in just com~~Cn decencY' that in my humble opinion, for whatever it is worth to anybody here , that I was just as relevant in my coments a few minutes ago as the Leader of the Opposition is in his right now. MR. D.

JAMIESON: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHJ\.I:RMJ\N (Butt) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. 0. JAMIESON: you wish tn rule, I - MR. CHAIRMAN: MR. D. JAMIESON: To the point of order, the hon. the I have no problem, Mr. Chairman, unless Yes, I do. - accept the word of the Premier. I pemaps · had wandered afield, I was seeking to make a point but I will accept the necessity to stay on the design. MR. CHAII<MAN: There is a legitimate point of order here and I vould uk the hon •. the Leader of the Opposition to confine his xelll&%ks to Clause 2 wflich deals with the design of this flag.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Jo!R •. o. JAMIESON: Thank you wu:y much, Sir. We are speaking about the design and the acceptability of it to the people of NewfoUDdland. I think the one point which is overlooked, by all of those whO talk about the procedare e~ hearings and the like azound the Province, is that, of course, those had to be to a degree representations from various groups indicating what kind of a design they wanted.

The fact of the Jll4tter is that there has not been an opportunity for the people of Newfoundland to express themselves on the design itself and I believe that to be an extremely key and important point. AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear. 4636

...... May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1772 SD - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: There is no question in my mind with regard to the necessity of having the flag, I believe the record will show that I was supportive of that idea. And I can understand the difficulties, as I said in my initial remarks at; the opening of this debate, what a problem the Oommittee had with regard to the various des~gns which were presented to them. But what has really taken place here is pemaps scmethinq which none of us anticipated, perhaps we ought to have given more time in the initial debate on establishing th'!

Committee and then we might not be in the quandary which some of us find ourselves in today 1 and. that is if we had asked ourse-lves at that time what happens if the Committee having brought in a design, it is not one which is acceptable to the majority of Newfoundlanders or to significant 11UIIIbers of Newfoundlanders or whatever was there~ MR. S. NEARY: The Committee decided themselves. MR. D. JAMIESON: I understand that it was one of their rules at the tilDe but I was not privy to the discussions within the OoDDi.ttee. But the point of the matter, I believe, is this,- MR. S. NEARY: It is in the report. MR. D.

JAMIESON: - I imderstcad it is in the report but it is watered down, as the hon. DIUII:ler for Grand Bank (Mr. L. Thoms) said, in the report f:rom scn.thinq havinq to say that the design had to be acceptable to the 11ajority, there is a different kind of wozi!ing. MR. S. NEARY: Widely MR. D. aAMIESOR: Widely acceptable - so widely acceptable ·design is pemap8 so.ethinq diUerent then a majority design or whateYer. l!lut that is not my point.

It s- to me that qiven oar concern for the design, qiven the fact that 11111ny of ua and r think not only melllbers on this side but so- ~s opposite,. certainly large numbers of the general public, have real reservations let alone a. total dislike of this partic:alar desiqn 1 then given those circumstances that it is illoqic:al and inconsistent with the attitude adopted by this govemuent not to have more time elapse during which the people can, indeed, express the11111elves on the design.,not on the idea of having a distinctiYe flaq but on the design itself, for the life of me, I can 4637

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1772 SD - 3 MR. D. .:mMIESON; not see what is to be qained by having this flaq which the Premier has said, "That desiqn will fly over NeWfoundland for pemaps ~turies to come' 1 qi~ that fac:t that- liiiiSt, for some re~n which I do not understilllld, now 1110ve inmediately and instantly to puttinq it through when,indeed,if there wu an opportunity for a lonqer period of reflection, iUld I am not speakinq of years, I am not speakinq o~ anythinq other than a few months, that it is not entirely out of the qla8tiCIIl that there might vary -ll be a realization that the fl.aq was acceptable.

But as things stand at the 1110111ent; first of all, - do not know, secondly, what we do know is that there is a very siqnificant and a very larqe element whic:h does not like it.; Now, that is the proposition. I do not know whether it is relevant or irrelevant to talk about what qenerations in the future will come to think of this but, you know, in all such cues, Mr. OlaiJ:~neD, a desiqn of this ltiJ)d 4638 --:~--.- -.,....~ - --

May 23 , 1980 Tape No. 1773 DW - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: has to begin with the ap~roval of some generation. It has to start somewhere with some generation, some living group of people have to say, 'Yes, we like it'. Now that has not been answered by the people of Newfoundland. I will came back and end as I began by saying that I have the design - it is, of course, the work of a very good friend of mine. It is with pro- found regret that I have to say that in this particular case I do not especially like his design.

I think, with regard to the design,that the symbolism is ~oo obscure, with regard to the design,that it has nothing in it that is clearly and unequivocally related to Newfoundland as those of us in this generation understand Newfoundland. Maybe there are those who will see these rather esoteric symbols more clearly than I. But I say for my part that I want to be · able to support and will support, I emphasize once again, I will support a flag that is democratically passed by this House~ ~a democrat,as a Newfoundlander I have no choice in the matter.

But I wish I could make that choice more satisfied that what I was doing was in line with what the majority of the people of this Pro- vince feel and that there had been a reasonable period of time after the design became public for the people of this Province to express themselves in a way which I suggest they have not had up to the present time.

And, therefore, I appeal once again to those who have the responsibility in these matters to think twice before moving along to the ~oint where we make an irrev~cable decision here and something which far from being the kind of shining design example for the future that has been talked abou .!.r._ may be a rud.nder for ---- years to come of the dbisiwness with wbich this parti~ lar and historic measure was introduced. 4639 ····-- ~ -- ·· -· - - ---- --- --·---- -·- -- .. ----

May 23 , 1980 '!:ape No. 1773 nw - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CHAI~~AN (Butt): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, just let me respond for two or three minutes to that. I C.o not think the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) was here was present in the Province, I think he was serving with the Federal Government at the time that the last process of the flag came up in this han. House. And I think one thing that we have 'all for­ i' gotten about that ~happened at that time which has not happened at this time-r will point this out because it is very important.

There are and let me just say it very generally as it relates to this particular desicrn and what we had a few years ago• innumerable orqanizations around this Province this hour, this moment who are saying very little about this design. I would suggest to the han. Leader of the Opposition that if any additional process is done to either change this design or to bring in something different that not only would you have one organization, the aoyal Canadian Legion,arguing you would have quite a few. MR. S. NEARY: I cannot believe that. BREMIER PECKFORD: I say that humbly and I believe that to be true.

Number two,! will just ~o back to the democracy and the Leader of the Opposition tries to attack the government as it relates to procedure and democracy, 'l'biSI was done by this whole House - I will reiterate it again - through a Select Committee, through briefs and everything.

ADd .. as far as time since then, we have made every op.,ortuni ty ~~~out to the people of Newfoundland and I am sure there ·-aJilO't very many settlements in Newfoundland ,-h.ich have not seen this design because we have sent it out by leaflet to all the newspapers, it has been out to all of the schools and it has been there now for a couple of weeks. And that design has been well covered in the last while. 4640

Hay 23 , 1980 Tape Ho. 1773 ow - 3 PREMIER ?ECKFORD: And the particular organization ---l which is the most vociferous and really the only organiza- tion which is most vociferous in opposition to this particu- lar design, is the Xoyal Canadian Leqion·whiCh is very sup- portive of the Union Jack which the government has said will continue to fly beaause we do recognize this jurisdiction as having uniqueness in the world in the sense that we are both a member of a country, the Maple Leaf, we are a member of a Commonwealth, the Union Jack, and we are a member of 43,000 square miles on the Island of Newfoundland and 110,000 square miles of Labrador, we are members of that Newfoundland and Labrador land mass which 1 the%efore,is reflected in this particular design.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! :~R. CHAIRMAN (Butt) The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. ~~R. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I will be rela- tively brief.I wanted to say a word or two on the design- I gather that is the particular clause we are on. I think the Premier mis-spoae when he said the Legion wanted the Union Jack. That is not what I understand the Legion ho· have said publicly. I am not going to speak for or against the Legion - ~IR. L. THOMSt Did you see the flag last night on television? MR. E. ROBERTS: No, I am sorry I did not see it last night on television MR.- L.

THOMS: :~~y shove~ one !ith tust a small Union Jack on to _P, of the coat of Arms, you kno¥ a.. flag that is greeD, white and reg. MR. S. NEARY: It is a beautiful flag. MR. E. ROBERTS: I see, I did not see that, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to get into &• .particular design and I do not want to get into the Canadian Legion, I mean they are quite capable of speaking for themselves. I just wanted -------- 4641 -- -· ·-- --- .~ ---.-.---- .

May 23 , 1980 Tape No. 1773 D~1 - 4 :iR. E . ROBERTS: to say that I think the Premier rnis-spoke the Legion's position and I am sure he ~ou1d not want to 4642

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1774 EL - l MR. E. ROBE:RTS: do that, when he said that they want the union Jack. That is not my reading. Let me simply tell the House,we speak of design and we speak of acceptability and we are talking of a particular design and the Olairman of the Flag COII'IIIittee, the mell!ber for St. John's North (J. Carter) sent across a letter which came to him from - does he mind if I read it? MR. J. CARl'ER: (Inaudible) read it. MR. E. RJBERl'S: Well, he sent it ac:ross to my f:dend, the Leader of the Opposition. It is from a Ms.

Bragg of the 1\cadelnic: Department of the College of Trades and Technology here in the city and she says, 'I, as well, as the majority of my students, liked the design, once we had looked at it for a while and studied the syll!bolism in it. We especially saw the combination of traditional and progressive elements as being very effective!' . And I think the bon. gentleman will agree that is the gist of that particular letter. Let me tell the. Committee , Mr. Chairman, of an experience I had this past weekend. I was in. St. Bar.be in my constituency and we had a public meeting.

It was called to discuss a fisheries question and we talked about that. Some are present in the Gallery, some gentleiMJl who, I believe, were at that meeting. And they can verify not by speaking, obviously, in the House but they can verify what went on, if anybody is interested. It was probably as large a meeting, Mr. Chairman, as has ever been held on the St. Bar.be Coast. There wem I would say, there was no exact count· and I am not trying to warrant the co'Wit, between 350 and 400 people who came from quite a large area. The matter, the question of the fish ' ·i plant at st.

Barbel \ was of considerable interest and concem to these l people and they came ~. meeting on Saturday night and absolutely filled the ball... Wbell - hslr fiD:isiUtd speaki.nq about the fishery question and every­_ _ _ ___f cody who wanted to have his say, had had his say or her say, I t!um said, Now, ladies and gentlemen and my friends, since we have qot such a large 4643 _.. ..... _ ..... ,

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1774 EL - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: group of people here, let me ask you what you think of the flag, the design of our flag. And I said to them, first of all, how many of the people here,• how :nany of you have seen the new flag? And just about every hand went up. Just about everybody there had seen on the television, possibly in the newspaper.- there is a local newspaper with a wide circulation called The Northern Pen, a new publication, a very good one, but I suspect most people had seen it through the CBC televisio11 which , of course, has shO"-'ll the design on occasion.

And just about everybody said that he or she had seen it . - the particular design that now is right before the Conmdttee. And then I sa~4, 'How many of you wish to see a new flag for Newfoundland and Labrador?' Just about every hand went up. And I was not making precise count, you know, it ·.ras not a poll. It was not a vote. It was not an election. Just about every hand went up. And then I said, 'How many here like the new flag?' And there were five ' hands went up out of about 400 people.

Now I I did not want to assume that everybody who did not put: ~· hand up did not like it so I then asked the next question. I said how llliiiDY of you here, do not like the new flag? And just about every hand went up. ADd. you know", , that is my recollection. !last Saturday evening there were several hundred people there. Each of them can give his or her own recollection. ADd then I said, juat to top it off, 'How many here would like, tile mdoa Jack to be in a flaq a~~d zelatively few hands went ·up. I do not think the OrU.on Jack, as such, has a great deu of support.

I think the people who want a new flag feel u most of us • I thiJik. in the Bouse whq. have spoken on this matter do 1 that the design of the new flag shoul.d not include the UniOD Jack, i~ should includ~ references or symbol~ or , you know, i~ should capture the Union Jack. 4644

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1774 EL - 3 MR. E. ROBER!'S : Now, I recount the episode simply because it seems to me that it is a very revealing-, very revealing indication of t;lle feeling of people in one part of this Province but I do not thiak the feeling ' ' of people 1ri that ' part of our Province is any c:lifferent than the feeling £ anywhere else as to what they think of this particular desig-n. AN HON. MEMBER: How many people? MR. ROBEB!L'S : How many people? I will say that -s more people, Sir, than the Select COI!IIlli ttee heard from in all~ of their ~ravels.

And furthe:r:more , and this is an ilqportant point when • .,e come to talk:tof this desiqn, I would suggest to you, Mr. Chai:man, the Committee came up with a desiqn on their own. It:is not Mr.Pratt's desiqn. J4r. 4645 --- -- ----- ---·- · ----- - -----------=--.,---

May 23, 19 .80 Tape No. 1775 NM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: Pratt may have been the mind that conceived it but it is the Committee's design, the Committee's report, the Committee's recommendation and it stands for lolhat it is and that is what it is and I have no problem with accepting it as the Committee's recommendation. I am not prepared to vote for it, for the reasons which I gave, but it is not anybody's design except the Committee's. But they can hardly say that that design came out of the result of their public meetings.

That design was never shown to a soul other than the Committee members and possibly somebody who made the flag, whoever the people were who actually =eated the physical artifact itself. That design was shown to nobody, as I understand it, until here in the House the day that the gentleman from St. John • s North (Mr. Carter) presented the report and our two pages =aveled or unveiled, or whatever the phrase is - - MR. THOMS: Unfurled. MR. ROBERTS: - unfurled. I am sorry. I thank my friend from Grand Bank (Mr. Thoms) - unfurled the flag.

So I do not think we need feel that this design was the product of any public hearings, it was the product of a group of men, seven of them, each of them a member of the House, a group of men who went through a process of public hearings at which I would suggest they heard from far fewer people than at one meeting in St. Baxbe. I know what happened in St. Anthony, they went to St. Anthony and do you know who they saw? MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS : in st. Anthony. there as a doctor. MR. NEARY: MR. CARl'ER: MR. ROBERTS: Your brother. My brother. You know, my brother who works He has made his home there.

He is living there, worlting My brother was the only person - They went to Bell Island and. saw nobody. (Inaudible). My brother? Well I can tell my brother thinks in polite terms the flag ought never to be adopted. And my brother I would say has artistic talents as well as considerable medical talents. He is actually not a bad print maker. But that is neither here nor there. The 4646

May 23, 1980 Tape No. 1775 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: important point is the Flag Committee., you know, it went around , it advartised its hearings - what happened in St. Anthony was they did not advertise them. People may or may not have come if they had known, they did not know-. But whether they knew or not they did not come. And the point I i!lll making is that this particular design has not been tested by wide public exposure. And if the government really wanted to talk about democratic process they would not push this design any further. The House. is no't going to prorogue.

The House. is going to adjourn,! understand 1one of these fine days when we get around to it, and came back presumably in the Fall to resume this session. So simply letting this bill stand on the Order Paper at this stage, at this clause, would not mean that it died on the Order Paper, it could be revived when the session comes back again later in the Fall. I think that is worth looking at. There has been no public expos