Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 80B (32nd Legislature, 2nd Session)

32-2-80b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. SOB - 8:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 2 JUNE, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Oueens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOW NEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHI LL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Ho n. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W .J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW , Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 2 June, 1983. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURAL AFFAIRS AND HISTORICAL RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: We are on Item No. 2, and I have read them all before. The Honourable Minister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Prior to us rising for Private Members' Hour, there were some questions asked with respect to the Canada Council Grant to the Winnipeg Art Gallery. I have been able to get the following information that in the fiscal year 1982- 83, the Canada Council Grant to the Winnipeg Art Gallery was $1 48,000.00.

This year, the grant from the Canada Council is $12 0,000 which is a reduction of $28,000.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I bel ieve we were talking about the Tour Hosting Program, the Public Events Program, as it's called now. My question to the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is, who judges the need of the program? If the criteria is based on equal access and facilities and resources, all things being fairly equal, who judges the need? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The present practice is that they're reviewed, depending on the area that they are involved in.

As an example, if it's one dealing with a history type project, it will be reviewed by staff of the Historic Resources Branch. If it's something related to archival activity, it would be reviewed by staff from the Archives Branch; the same for Public Libraries or Cultural, then the re commenda tion to gr ant based on the recommendation from the staff. In the future, what we had anticipated having in place is some form of advisory committees which would include some representation from outside of the department to be on the advisory committees, similar to what's in place with respect to libraries.

Right now, in Capital grants, there is an advisory committee that makes recommendation with respect to the Capital grants or what was in place with respect to the Local Histories Program. There is also consultation with the regional staff in Recre ation, Fitness as to their recommendations. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What kind of money are we talking about when we're talking about these kinds of grants? Could the Minister give an example? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I may have missed the last part of it, but the total amount of money that's available this fiscal year is $13 0,000 which is out of the lotteries. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is there a top range that a community-based organization could get a grant or is it open-ended? If they need a grant for something, what would be the top range? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The range would be from the low end of $75 to $1,000 thought there is no maximum in place at the present time. As indicated before, under the previous program there were three different grant levels based on the location. In fact, they were grants that were specific amounts and we've attempted to provide for flexibil ity in the needs remoteness type of project so that it would be flexible amounts to be granted. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I understand the flexible amount. I am just wondering then, if something comes in at $5,000, $1 0,000, will that be considered too high, or will that be considered something that can be looked at? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Again, it would depend on the type of activity, the anticipated participation form of audience. I will use one example that I would think would reach the high side, if you will, and that would be having a co ncert of the Wi nnip eg Symphony Orchestra outside of the City of Winnipeg which, as members are aware, will be quite expensive.

Based on the cost of doing that and the anticipated audience, if it was part of regional tour, than that would be something that could conceivably be at a higher cost or a higher grant level than one performance of a single perf orming artist. The ide a was to provide some flexibility into the granting program. The concerns that we received from the rural and Northern community that the grants program wasn't flexible to meet the very needs of the regions or the types of activities, so we've attempted to build in a more flexible approach to see if by doing that we can meet some of those needs. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Of the funds before the change to the tour hosting, the funds that were allocated to the program, were they all used, generally , before? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, the tour hosting funds were totally expended in the last fiscal year. In fact, there • was some small amount of requests that were not met because of the increase in demand on that program. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Maybe I've missed something here, but as I look at this press release, it does indicate that the Public Events Program is replacing the Tour Hosting Program. I'm correct in that.

If this program, and I know it has been so popular, using amounts from $500 to $700, depending on the location, and the money was expended, what's going to happen to the program then to all these communities and people within the community that are obviously using the program? What's going to happen when the money is expended 3387

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 that much quicker because of the regions getting, say, something asking for money -like the symphony - coming into it. That changes the program considerably, I would think. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well there is, by combining resources, greater funds availabl e, for one point. Secondly, by having a more flexible grant level, it allows us to respond to the actual needs of the community.

Under the fixed grant, some communities were getting the grant even though, because of the kind of activity, because of the audience they could generate, they were, in essence, making money by getting the grant insofar as that particular activity could pay for itself because of audience participation. So the grant would be a bit of a bonus because it was a fixed amount and fixed to a particular activity that they were, in essence, developing reserves and that's certainly, I don'! think, what was intended by the program.

It was intended to help provide oppor tunities in rural and Northern Manitoba with respect to the performing groups and perf orming arts.

The Westman Region recently worked on a co operative effort with touring within their communities and they showed that some base of doing that, that some communities only needed assistance as low as $75 rather than getting the fixed grant of $500, so by having a flexible approach, hopefully, we can expand the number of events that will be sponsored and assisted so that the money can be used better than it was in the past, because as the member can appreciate, there are some communities in rural and Northern Manitoba that, because of !heir size, need less assistance than other communities that their distance is farther, say, from Winnipeg, even within the southern part of the province and have smaller community bases, that they need a greater level of assistance than a larger community that's closer to Winnipeg.

MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm somewhat surprised that the program, the Tour Hosting Program, was set up that you would get the money regardless of the need. I am just assuming that the department will be taking a close look at this to see that the communities and the organizations that formerly have made pretty good use out of this program would not be left out. The Community Culture Councils Program -that's the new program with the cost-sharing with the province and the municipal governments to a maximum of $20,000 -have any of the municipal governments indicated that they are willing to participate in this program? HON.

E. KOSTYRA: The appl ications under this program don't come in for another month, so we don't have an accurate picture. What we do know to date is that just about all of the Arts Councils in the northern region already have commitments of funding from their municipalities under this program. As far as the other Arts Councils, I don't have a report at this time and will know better once the applications close.

A number of Arts Councils already, community Arts Councils, were receiving municipal support, though it varied from some direct grants or grants through the local recreation comm1ss1ons to the Arts Councils where in some communities it was subsidized rent or subsidized lease space which, under the terms of the cost-sharing, is a legitimate municipal contribution; so that in some cases it's just a matter of identifying what that rent is worth and that would be eligible for the cost-sharing under the program. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Were the municipalities consulted before the change in this program? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The municipalities were consulted as part of the regional tour that took place in December. All the municipal councils were informed and invited to the meetings in their regions, and a number of councillors did attend. In fact, I gave a report of that in response to a quest ion from the Me mber of Minnedosa some time ago. So they were attending and

part icipa ting in the reg ional mee tings. Since the announcement of the grants they have been formally notified by letter as to the details of the grants and were raised at meetings that I attended, formal meetings with the union and the Urban and Rural Associations. I haven't received any negative comment back from any of the councils. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To the Minister, were the Municipal Councils aware that that was one of the topics to be under discussion at those regional meetings? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Not specifically, because the grant programs wer en't revised until after the regiona l meetings. It wouldn't have made much sense to go out to regional meetings and say, this is what we're doing, because the idea was to try to get some feedback. The general issue of cost-sharing between the province and the municipalities was raised in the meetings; we didn't specifically say that we're going to revise this grant program or another grant program, but the issue was raised in a general way in discussing the funding of cultural activities.

We talked about the cost-sharing that presently exists with libraries, between municipalities and the Provincial Government.

The same principle is with respect to our Museums Grants Program, where the grant is only paid if there's an additional amount of money from other sources and they tend to, in a lot of cases, be funds from municipal governments, so it was dis cussed in that context , but we didn't specifically say there is going to be a grant program that will require provinci al-municipal cost-sharing because, quite frankly, we did not decide until after the tours that we came forth with a change in the granting programs. MRS. C.

OLESON: The point that I was trying to make is that if the municipal people had known that this was one of the topics - I don't mean that you were tell them what you were going to do before you went to the meeting - I mean if this was mentioned as an agenda item there may have been more people come and expressed a view on it. That was just the point that I was trying to make, that if they didn't know it was on 3388

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 the agenda, obviously they wouldn't go prepared to talk about it. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I didn't know when I was at the regional meeting either that I was going to . . . MRS. C. OLESON: That just came out of them, is that correct? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The concept of cost-sharing between muncipalities and Provincial Government was discussed in general terms and, in fact, the review that was done of Community Arts Councils, prior to us going to the public meetings, indicated that there was varying levels of support from municipalities.

In some areas, municipaliti es were very sup portive of the local community groups; in other areas they weren't and, quite frankly, I think that, in order to have deve lopment of those kind that I think we'd like to see in the communities, it has to have a commitment from the local area, just the same as the member is aware with respect to libr aries.

I don' t think the Provincial Government can impose something on the community unless there's a commitment there from the local elected officials, so there's nothing that's being forced on the communities, rather one that if the local councils, or a collaboration of councils within an area, wish to have those kind of activities in their region and wish to access themselves to provincial dollars, then they have the vehicle, but there's certainly no force being put on them. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is the Summer Festival of the Performing Arts, has it been cancelled? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The program that's in place this summer is th reefold. We supported the first International Children's Festival that was held last weekend in Assiniboine Park to the tune of $50,000, which was part of the total cost of stag ing that event that came to appr oxi mately $19 0,000.00. Further summer activity is going to be Ballet in the Park which we will subsidizing to the tune of $20,000 and the Royal Winnipeg Ballet will be using other sources for a like amount to meet the total cost of the Ballet in the Park. of $40,000.00.

We will have funds available of up to $80,000 for a children's tour in rural and Northern Manitoba. So that is the extent of the summer activities. The previous Festival in the Park, which was an array of activities, for this year will be the Ballet in the Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have a few questions about the Winnipeg International Children's Festival. The province gave $50,000, you said. Did that include the amount that the Department of Education put into that festival? HON. E. KOSTYRA: If there was a contribution from the Department of Education, it would be over and above that $50,000.00.

I am under the impression that they bought 1, 000 tickets at a cost of $3,000 that were distributed to inner city schools, but I can't confirm that. But the $50,000 was the grant from the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How much money did the Federal Government put into the festival? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The figures that I will give you are tentative figures that are from a budget that was projected a month or two ago, so we don't have any final figures. I can't confirm what another level of government actually did.

But what showed as the revenue source at that time was the Government of Canada, through Manpower, $37, 152; Summer Student Grant, which I pre sume is the Federal Summ er Employment Program of $1 0,000.00. But I cannot confirm those amounts because I am just using projected information that is part of the budget information that was submitted to us. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Minister indicated that the Festival's budget was $1 90,000. Is that a correct figure? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Again, the figure that we had was $1 88,550, but I can't confirm that as being the final and actual budget.

This was a budget projection of March, when it was submitted to us for the funding application. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What kind of audit procedure or tabs is the department planning to keep on this festival? Indications from newspaper reports are that it has suffered a loss and with the amount of public funds involved in this festival, I am just wondering who's planning to pick up the loss? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: As far as I know the International Winnipeg Childr en's Festival is an incorporated non profit organization under The Corporations Act of the Province of Manitoba, so they are an independent organization and therefore they would be responsible for any deficit that they may have incurred. I understand that there may be a shortfall of somewhere betwee n $1 0,000 and $1 5,000.00. As far as auditing, the grants are given in the same fashion as given to other non-profit incorporated arts organizations in the province and we ensure that the funds are used for the purposes that were stated with the grant.

But we certainly don't do our own specific audit of the books of the organization because it is a separate incorporated body. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would the Symphony and the Ballet -do they come under that same criteria as a non-profit organization? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't quite know what the memb er means by same criteria as a non-profit organization. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would they be a non-profit organization that the government gives grants to, under the same basis that a grant is given to the Winnipeg Children's Festival? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, the fashion that grants are given to other organizations, I belie ve are in the same way. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I suppose what I'm getting at is that certainly the government in the past and still 3389

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 is, are bai lin g out the Symphony and dif ferent organizations that have grants when they get into a deficit position. I am just wondering what's going to make this festival any different when it has a shortfall, a deficit. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't belie ve it is or will be any different then any of the other organizations. They'll have to find ways and means of coping with that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I think we've all seen in the past, Mr. Chairman, how some of them have coped.

They've been forced to turn to the government to help them out and that's why I am asking and possibly suggesting that a good look be taken and a careful watch be taken over a new festival which has such an infusion of public funds, that it doesn't get out of hand and that we're not in a position of forcing to bail it out. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, I think we looked very closely at the projected budget of the festival when we were first approached for funding, to make sure that we felt it was a viable operation.

Given that it was the first such Festival in the City of Winnipeg, and considering the size of the budget and the fact that one always has difficulty when one breaks new ground, that I think quite frankly it did well to have a small shortfall. It would be our intention that if there is any ongoing funding or any future funding, we would want to ensure that they're on a sound financial base before we would provide any possible funding in future years.

The experience with such festivals in other cities in Canada, Vancouver was one that they started off on a similar scale and similar style as Winnipeg and grew into a trem endousl y successful, both in terms of audience participation and financially, so I'm hopeful that the excellent start that was made this year with respect to the Children's Festival is one that will continue both in terms of quality, participation and of course financially.

But the experience I had this past week and I think it was a great ,festival and one that seemed to be enjoyed by all that attended, unfortunately the weather just v1asn't as good as it could have been in May and I think if it was it would probably have been an outstanding success. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, I am not just sure what happens to festivals like this. Do they continue to need the type of funding that has started it out, or do they gradually work their way down till they need no public funding and can operate on their own? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I am informed that with respect to the other children's festivals, they have declined in actual percentage government involvement, but not down to zero. I guess the other example that we could look at here is the Winnipeg Folk Festival. It started off as 100 percent subsidiz ed by the public purse dur ing Centennial year to the point now that it has a very small amount of money that goes through gove rnment sources. So I would be hopeful that the same could be said of the Children's Festival.

But I think as the member is well aware that there are few, if any, major activities in the performing arts that don't require some form of govern ment assistance, otherwise the costs to participants would be prohibitive. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wonder if the Minister would know, where did the festival, where did they advertise and did they get any children coming from out of province and, say, out of the country, from the States? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I couldn't really answer that. I don't believe, if they did have children outside of the province or outside of the country, it would be minimal.

The idea was to have an event for children in the province and, of course, particularly in the City of Winnipeg. The idea of it being an International Children's Festival is that it had entertainers, both some of the best local artists and performing groups and some from outside of the province, in Canada and outside of Canada, from England, Germany -those two countries, to use as an example.

This festival, as I understand it, was part of a circuit that started at Vancouver, Edmonton and Winnipeg, so some of the performers that came from outside of Canada, obviously it was cost effective for them to be part of a circuit rather than just coming in for the Winnipeg, and as I understand, that was the reason that the May date was chosen, to fit into that circuit, to get the high calibre of international entertainment here at a reasonable cost. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have one last question about the festival.

I wonder if the Minister could find out how much money, if any, the Department of Tourism donated to the festival. HON. E. KOSTYRA: We don't know what, if any, funds were paid by Tourism but we will get that information and provide it subsequently for the member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wanted to ask about the Folklorama. Does the funding for Folklorama go to the Winnipeg Folk Arts Council? Is that the way it is funded? HON. E. KOSTYRA: If I can just go back to the previous question, from what I just recalled, looking at a brochure for the International Children's Festival.

It had the Destination Manitoba logo on it, so I presume by that that they must have received some thing from Destination Manitoba and I will get the specific amount. Folklorama is run by the Commun ity Folk Arts Council. They have not, in the past, received any funds nor have they requested funds from the Department of Cultural Affairs since about three years ago when there were funds given to them as grants to be paid to pavilions for working on visual displays as part of the pavilions' activities.

The only funding that they received in the past few years from the government was through the Department of Tourism and Recreation, through Destination Manitoba, which is basically money to help them advertise. They have, however, requested a grant this year from the province and there was recently a grant of $10, 000 from the Department of Tourism paid to the Community Folks Arts Council for Folklorama. The Department of Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, through its 3390

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 multicultural grants, is considering a grant of up to $15, 000 to the Communit y Folk Arts Council for Folklorama. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I was noticing in the newspaper that Folklorama is having problems renting space. I guess, as far as money, they were approaching the city or the Mayor was asking the school board to discuss rental fees so that pavilions could be in the schools during August. I wonder is this one of the problems that's coming up for, say, some of the smaller pavilions, that they would prefer to be in schools rather than in their own buildings, that the facilities are larger.

HON. E. KOSTYRA: Frankly, I can't really answer that question; I don't know what those specific difficulties are. I don't recall the

article in the newspaper. It must have been one that slipped by me. Like everyone else around this place, I seem to read papers from front to cover every morning before I can start functioning but I don't recall that specific article, nor has there been any of thos e conc er ns raised to me by representatives of the Community Folk Arts Council or any of the member organizations that I see from time to time, so I quite frankly cannot reply to that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The reason I'm bringing it up is that the festival certainly has turned out to be an enormous success.

I don't think there's anything that Manitoba has, really , that equals it. Even in one of the articles they were saying that it's on a par with events such as the Mardi Gras in New Orleans and the Tournament of Roses Parade and I think that Manitoba certainly is to be congratulated on all the volunteers that work in these programs. It tends to worry me from time to time, wondering if the volunteers are going to run out one day and decide that that's enough. There have been suggestions that possibly it should be run on a two-week basis; one week, some pavilions and another week, another.

I don't know if they're planning to overhaul it, but it certainly is one of the things that, in Manitoba, people look forward to and I know today that they tend to plan to take their holidays and many people from the rural areas now come into the city. It certainly is a major event and one that I think deserves looking at to make sure that it doesn't slip in any way. HON. E. KOSTVRA: I think all Manitobans are indeed proud of the work that's done by the ethnocultural organizations that exist in the province, in particular those that are invol ved with Folklor ama.

I'm not pessimistic that the volunteers will fade away, because if one looks at the history of this province, one of the great strengths we have is our people. The kind of volu nteer efforts that have built many of our communities in rural Manitoba, built our pools and other organizations has always been prevalent in Manitoba and I think it's been one of our strengths. I think that's going to continue in the future and it's certainly our intention to work with the Community Folks Arts Council to ensure that Folklorama is to remain the fine institution it is in the City of Winnipeg. MRS. G.

HAMMOND : The International Cul tural Agreements, are the agreements extended this year? Are there any further agreements with other countries? 3391 HON. E. KOSTVRA: We're retaining the present agr eements that exist. There will be no further expansion in this area and it's just a matter of priority at the present time, that it is a lower priority because of cost containment. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Has there been any change in the policy with regard to grants for bands?

I'm thinking of school bands travelling out of province and ones that are in actual competition, or win a competition here and need to go on to national competitions? HON. E. KOSTVRA: The policy hasn't changed in the last three years; that is, that there is no support. There was support three or four years ago and a previous administration, because of costs, I presume, that was cut out. We have not been in a position financially to get back into that kind of assistance. The immediate priority is to provide assistance for travel and skills develo pment within the province.

It would be nice to have funds available to assist bands, but that expansion isn't here at the present time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, to the Minister, were there any functions that the Cultural Affairs put on for Manitoba Day this year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there was not any sponsored function by the department for Manitoba Day. We are looking for the future to have an idea developed of having a series of major cultural and heritage activities on Manitoba Day and, because of other demands, it wasn't possible to have any major function plan this year.

In the longer term, I would like to see developed a whole series of activities throughout the province on a cultural and heritage theme within the schools, work pla ces around the various com munities on Manitoba Day; that's kind of my hope for the future. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just wanted to know how much support, what kind of a grant was given to the -the name I've got here is the Gas Station Theatre. I know the cultural centre, the name has slipped my mind for the moment. HON. E. KOSTVRA: The province is looking at two projects this year with respect to development of community cultural centres.

One is earmarked for the City of Winnipeg, and one is earmarked for areas outside of the City of Winnipeg. We have accepted the Osborne Village Cultural Centre -Gas Station Theatre, if you will -as the Winnipeg project, and have provided them with a grant of $9,000, and will consider funding, up to a maximum of $1 5,000, as a pilot project in the City of Winnipeg. We are also accepting proposals now from areas outside of Winnipeg for a similar type project outside of Winnipeg, and I bel ieve, to date, have received two proposals from areas outside of Winnipeg. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is the Osborne Village Cultural Centre - I belie ve that's part of the Core area -is this part of the Heritage Winnipeg Art Complex that has been talked about? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, it is not. Let me just go back a bit. The Osborne Village Cultural Centre is a separate

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 non-profit community organization that is renting the space; the theatre is part of the Riverboine Project that is under the Core, but the Osborne Village Cultural Centre is a separate organization. It is not part of the Heritage Winnipeg project of the Core Area Initiative, that is a separate program which covers the Heritage Winnipeg area, which is defined the area of the old Market Square Warehouse District of Winnipeg.

Under the Core Area Initiative, which I can comment on since the member is aware I'm also Minister of Urban Affairs, there is a proposal under the Core Area Initiative called the Arts Accommodation Project which has attempted to meet some of the needs of the arts community in the Heritage Winnipeg area. There is a study under way that's going into its third phase now with respect to looking at heritage buildings and how they might be used to accommodate the varied needs of the visual • and performing arts community. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is there a proposal in the North of Portage Avenue for an arts complex there?

HON. E. KOSTYRA: There was some discussion with respect to a proposal that's being proposed by the University of Winnipeg. The University of Winnipeg, as its next stage of expansion, would like to develop a cultural centre facility. It was thought that if that was to develop that it could be part of the North Portage development.

Quite frankly, I would be opposed to deve loping another cultural facility within the North Portage area because I think the cultural centre of the city, with respect to major facilities, is over in the area around the Co ncert Hall, the Manitoba Theatre Centre, Pantages or Playhouse Theatre. I would not be in favour of developing another major centre in the North Portage area when it could detract from what is around our cultural centre now. Secondly, what is being developed through the study that I just mentioned, the Arts Accommodation Study in the Heritage Winnipeg area. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: Is the area around the cultural centre, the Theatre Centre, is that the area that they're planning to build a new facility for the Royal Winnipeg Ballet? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Royal Winnipeg Ballet has looked at a number of potential sites for building. They have, in fact, prior to any discussion, the North Portage site, I guess, going back to a couple or three years ago, were looking at the Isbister School site which is in the so-called North of Portage area as a potential site for their building.

They've also looked at other areas, including the area immediately adjacem to the Manitoba Theatre Centre; they've also looked at the old Eaton's Warehouse which is down close to the river, so they've looked at a number of sites. That proposal is under discussion as part of the North Portage development at the present time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the building I believe was on the province's wish list.

I was assuming that it was for a new building, but possibly they would be thinking of going into one of the historic buildings downtown where there's going to be so many empty, is that a possibility? HON. E. KOSTYRA: It is a possibility but I don't think it's really a realistic possibility. One of the difficulties that you have with respect to the kind of space needed for ballet is that you need fairly large space for that kind of facility. Most of the heritage or historic buildings tend to be much narrower and with a more compressed space so it isn't, as I understand it, ideal for the purposes of dance.

So it's not ideal and I would think it would be of a lesser priority as far as space with the RWB. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I noticed in the Mini ster's statement he was talking about museum grants, looking into a policy. I take it from that, that there hasn't been a change yet in the policy for funding medium-sized museums. HON. E. KOSTYRA: There hasn't been any change in the policy with respect to the funding of museums basically since The Museum and Miscellaneous Grants Act was brought in 1970 -71, that provides for the maximum of up to a $2,000 grant per museum.

That is an area that is of as great deal concern to the heritage community because those dollars, if projected to 1983 dollars, are certainly not worth $2,000 today. But the next priority of the department is a review of the museum grants and hopefully it will have something in place for the next fiscal year. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Has the department been funding museums such as the Steinbach Mennonite Museum and the Marine Museum? Are they funding them still on an ad hoe basis and giving them extra money on just application? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The funding for those museums is the basic $2,000 museum grant.

The Mennonite Museum in Steinbach received a special grant last year of $1 0,000; the Marine Museum didn't receive anything outside of the $2,000, although there was assistance provide d through -the problem is not of di rect responsibility of this department -but under the ARC Agreement, the federal -provincial agreement, they received capital funds under that program. The other museums that received additional support were the Western Canada Aviation Museum.

There was also a special grant to the Dugald Costume Review Museum, a special capital grant that was paid last year and was the second of a two-part grant that was agreed to by the previous administration. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How many museums would there be in that category that would be considered larger than the small community museums, but are not in the giant size? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There would be about 10 that would fall into that category, the Western Canada Aviation Museum, the Mennonite Museum in Steinbach, the Marine Museum, Dugald Costumary Review.

Other museums that are somewhat larger than the small community museums and closer to that range are Portage la Prairie, Fort Dauphin, Swan River and the St. Boniface Museum. MRS. G. HAMMOND: How are they managing as far as funds are concerned? Are they finding it difficult? Are they managing to keep up or what is happening? 3392

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I am sure that many museums are facing difficulties. I am not aware of any museums that are in any form of severe financial condition. Any organization that is funded by our department that gets into that situation is usually into the Minister's office fairly quickly, so I haven't received any indication of any severe problems.

I know that when I've been meeting with the Provincial Association of Museums, when we are out in the regional tours, that it was made very clear to us that the people in the heritage community, particularly those with museums, are not happy with the level of government funding. I think we all recognize that when you have a grant program that remains the same for over 10 years then there is need to revise that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is the Minister planning to try and get some of that money loose from the 649 Lottery that is in the trust account? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I will attempt to get money wherever I can for activities of the department. The whole area of lotteries, as I think the memb er appreciates, is under review and there may well be changes made in the near future, but that is something that the Governor General will be looking at -lotteries and the whole area of gaming. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I noticed that the department, the Cultural Affairs and Historic part of it have moved to 177 Lombard it said. What historic building is that? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: It was most recently used as the Chamber of Commerce building and in its dark and distant past it was also the headquarters of the Great West Life at one time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is it a designated site by the City of Winnipeg? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Not yet. It hasn't been desig nated by the city. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Is it one that is planned to be designated? Does the Minister have any idea? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The City is ex amining it to see whether or not they want to designate it as a building. MRS. G.

HAllllllllOND: The reason I am asking the questions is, I would have thought that the Minister would have housed his department in a building that would be designated, so that at least they're doing their part for the historic sites of the city. Ha ve any further buildings been designated? I understand that other than The Pas, I understand that Neepawa was designated, am I right? Has the Virden Auditorium been designated? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Just going back to the remark of the member, with respect to the fact that the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources ought to be in a building that was designated as an historic site, I think that there's many buildings that aren't formerly designated that are an important part of the history and heritage of this city. Certainly the Chamber of Commerce and Great West Life have had an historic role to play in the City of Winnipeg, so I think the building is an appropriate one and is in the Heritage Winnipeg area.

With respect to designations, the The Pas Courthouse was des ignated, we discussed that in last year's Estimates; the Bea utiful Plains Court Building in Neepawa was designated as an historic site; the Virden Municipal Offices and Courthouse has been under active determination and discussion for designation. I did receive a recommendation from the Historic Sites Advisory Board to designate the Virden auditorium and the municipal building as an historic site.

The Municipal Council in the Town of Virden preferred that only the auditorium be designated, not the municipal building, and we're continuing discussions with them prior to making any final recommendation to Cabinet with respect to the designation. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I wanted to ask the Minister about the church in Portage la Prairie, the Blessed Virgin Mary Ukrainian Catholic Church, and I guess the pastor had asked the Minister for an apology for his criticisms about them tearing down the church.

What I'd like to know from the Minister is if it had been designated, was the government planning to give any money to help them restore the church? HON. E. KOSTYRA: With respect to the alleged request for apology. That was a report that was contained in the newspaper. The letter that I received from Reverend Radkewycz did not ask for an apology, as was quoted in the newspaper. I did have an opportunity of meeting with the Vice-Chairman of the Parish Council, Mr. Pollock, to discuss what had transpired with respect to the church, but there was no apology requested by the Reverend in his letter to me.

I invited him to meet with me and there hasn't been any requests from him, or any concurrence from him to that mee ting. The question of whether or not there would have been any financial assistance with respect to the church if it would have been desig nated was not at any time discussed. The department, prior to the demolition, was looking at providing some assistance to retrieve some of the artifacts within the church, particularly there were paintings that were contained on the walls and the upper portions of the church.

In fact, I think it was within a few days prior to the demolition, we were phoning for tenders to get contractors who could have gone into that building to retrieve some of that material. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm not sure if the Minister had indicated, has there been any money given by the government to any of the buildings that have been designated as historic sites by the province? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there hasn't been any grants awarded, or any funds, to any building that has been designa ted.

Ther e's been some studies done on buildings that have been designated, but there's no funds directly gone to any buildings. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Are there any plans for the government to give any funds to these buildings after the studies have been completed? 3393

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I would hope that in the future we would have the necessary financial resources to have assistance or grants available to buildings that are designated as historic buildings under the Act. We're a bit behind I think in this province; in our sister Province of Saskatchewan they've had for a number of years a grant program for buildings that have designated as historic sites, to help the owners of those buildings maintain them in their original or close to original form.

Unfortunately, because of limited resources, that is not possible this year, but I would hope that some time in the near future that we could have such type of assistance available. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The report of the Heritage Working Group, what has happened to that? Has it been shelved or is there anything happening with that report? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The report has been used in varying degrees with respect to the development of programs. The department has certainly used some of the advice that came forward from the Heritage Working Group, but not all the recommendations have been specifically acted upon. MRS.

G. HAMMOND: Last question. Has there been any assistance given , is there any in this year's Estimates, for the historical murals on the Sturgeon Creek Bridge? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't belie ve we'll be able to proceed with assisting that project this year. It's one that is still on a list of projects we'd like to do, as are a number of others, so we haven't said, no, we will not consider funding it, which we do, of course, say to many projects. It's one that is still on a list of projects that, if and when, we have resources available we will hopefully be able to proceed with it. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I think this is a good project to go after 649 Lottery. I think Sunny St. James has been totally left out. A MEMBER: I agree. This Minister is neglecting Sunny St. James, there's no question about it. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1)- pass; 2.(a)(2) . MRS. HAMMOND: Hold it, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I've been waiting; it's been a long time. The honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: have some questi ons concerning the Museum of Man and Nature. MR. D. ORCHARD: It should be Person and Nature. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I noticed that Dr. Hemphill is not on the Historic Sites Advisory Board anymore.

Was there any particular reason for that change? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The board was reviewed and changed last year. The Museum of Man and Nature is, by legislation, allowed one position on the board. I asked the Museum of Man and Nature for its recommendations and I belie ve they made a number of recommendations to us at that time and we picked one of their recommendations. MRS. G. HAMMOND: The museum has had a major project concerning work, and my first question is, could you tell me what the cost of that program is and was there any extra funding needed for it? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I have no idea what the cost of that project was. There was no extra funding giving to the museum for that project; that was a priority of the museum. The only additional assistance that I'm aware of that was given by government for that project was some assistance from the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources and the Department of Labour for the Labour Day Celebration that was, unfortunately, rained on last September on the grounds of the Legislature; I don't have those figures, but it was a very small amount of assistance to help in some entertainment for that, as I recall.

The project, itself, was one that was generated by the Museum of Man and Nature out of their existing resources. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Who is in charge of the project? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm informed a person in the museum staff by the name of Sharon Riley. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Did Ms. Riley come up with the specific programs, and what were the resources used to decide where they were going to draw on people and what organizations would be inv olved? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I cannot answer those questions.

As the member is aware, the Museum of Man and Nature is, by legislation, a separate organization with a separate Board of Directors that makes decisions. The department provides a funding grant to the organization which provides it funds to pay for part of its operation. Other parts of its operation are collected from the private sector, from fees and admission fees and from the national museums. I really don't have that information, nor was it at any time provided to me, nor did I ever ask for it from the museum.

It would be a question that would have to be put to the Director of the museum or the Board of the museum. I presume that the Administration and the Board of Directors there had some say in how those projects were developed, but I do not have that information available and I have never been privy to that information. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Did the department have any input as far as outlining the program? HON. E. KOSTVRA: No, the department had no involvement in the program, outlining the program itself. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I have a paper here from the museum and evidently they're building an exhibition that will be travelling to other Canadian museums for a period of four years. Is that something that will be covered? Will the travelling cost be covered by the museum? 3394

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm informed that those costs, or the assistance is provided for that by the National Museums. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Has the museum had a program like this before, of this magnitude, as far as a travelling project? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, they've had a number of such projects, I'm informed. One was the actual train car that was developed for touring which was assisted by the National Museums.

As I understand it, the National Museums attempt to provide some assistance to allow significant provincial or regional museums to take some of their information, their programs to other parts of Canada from time to time. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Would the Minister know if this type of program conce rning work with the heavy involvement, certainly, of other agencies and the number of exhibitions and courses, is this a change of direction for the museum? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I can't really comment if it's a change of directions; it certainly is the most extensive kind of ongoing program that the museum has done on a specific area, a specific subject. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we ready to pass the item? I still have to call item-by-item, every one of them. 2.(a)( 1) -pass; 2.(a)(2)(a)-pass; 2.(a)(2)(b)- pass; 2.(a)(3)(a)- pass; 2.(a)(3)(b). MRS. G. HAMMOND: I'm sorry , the Me mber for Gladstone has some questions on the Library Services. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. I just wanted to ask a few questions on the Public Library Services.

First of all, I want to know how many people work in the department that's considered as public library services? Did I understand correctly in an earlier statement you made on staffing, that there has been one staff member deleted? HON. E. KOSTYRA: At the present time the staff complement for the public libraries is 22 SYs, which is a reduction of one position from that which was in effect last year. I might just add, the position that was decreased was a vacant position in the cataloguing area. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you.

In the report of the Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, on page 11 it refers to technical services provided to rural libraries and example the cataloguing services. I am wondering how many libraries in the province take advantage of this service? HON. E. KOSTYRA: 26. MRS. C. OLESON: Are they mainly libraries with no professional librarian? Is this service available to all public libraries in the province? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes to both. MRS. C. OLESON: Also, I am noticing that on the same page in the report it gives the total number of Manitobans with access to local public library services.

I am wondering if this figure includes the City of Winnipeg. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, it does. MRS. C. OLESON: If it does include the City of Winnipeg, then that leaves the impression that the Province of Manitoba is - I think it said 78.5 percent of the province's population -but that rather distorts the picture of public library services in the rural areas. I wonder, could you tell me how many municipal corporations in the province have local library services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: 101. MRS. C. OLESON: 101? And how many bookmobiles does this include? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Outside of the city there are two bookmobiles and inside the City of Winnipeg there is five. MRS. C. OLESON: Where are the ones outside the city? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Dauphin and Stonewall. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. Now, I've heard over the past year or so that public library usage has gone up considerably and partly due to the econo my , particulary in communities such as Thompson who had a high unemployment problem or perhaps still have.

So in the light of this, I am happy to see that there has been incr eased es tablishment of new public libraries, for instance at Snow Lake, also at Beausejour and also the Municipality of Cornwallis has joined the Western Manitoba Regional Library System . Can the Minister tell me if there are many other municipalities showing an interest in joining and forming library districts? HON. E. KOST\'RA: I am pleased to report that we antici pate that there will be seven addit ional municipalities joining library systems in the province, which is the highest number in recent years. So I am quite pleased about that.

MRS. C. OLESO�: I take from that they're all joining existing regions. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: So it won't be a formation of a new region per se. In last year's Estimates the Minister reported and I'll quote, "We plan to review the operating grant formula for public libraries in the Province of Manitoba over this next summer." I hear in his opening remarks that this must have taken place because they are considering new grant systems which will be announced soon, I take it? 3395

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I did indicate that we're anticipa ting that the library grant formula will be increased this year and from the $3, hopefully to $3.50 per capita. This $3.50 per capita is a matching grant of course. That's up to a maximum of $3.50 and therefore in order to get the $3.50, any library district that is under that at present will have to raise their levy in order to get the $3.50. HON. E. KOSTVRA: Yes, that's true, though as I think the member is well aware that it's been a few years sinc e the formula has been adj usted.

What has happened with the in crease in costs in most cases is the municipalities have been bearing a larger share. In fact, that was one of the main resolutions that I have received from both association of municipalities in the province, was to adjust the libraries grants, so I am pleased that we are able to adjust it upwards. I can't quantify it, but I would think that many libraries already are, through municipalities receiving a like amount, in fact, amounts higher than what the provincial contribution is. So hopefully it would be used to enhance and retain service. MRS. C.

OLESON: It has been my understanding that it's the very small districts that have been a way over the per capita grant in many cases and found it very difficult to operate. So this will particularly help the smaller areas, which is good. Another thing I am wanting to know is, has the department ever done an analysis of the salaries paid to rural library staff? Have they done any statistics on that sort of a review of salary trends in the province in this for various categories of people working in public libraries in various districts, and also the benefit plans they might have or that sort of thing? HON. E.

KOSTVRA: That information is compiled every two years by the branch and the information is circulated to libr ary boards throughout the province. MRS. C. OLESON: I think that's about all I had to ask about the libraries per se at this time. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Continuing, 2.(a)(3)(c)-pass; 2.(b)(1) -pass; 2.(b)(2) -the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have a question about the Archives. The Minister indicated that there was an increase of one in staff. I think he had indicated earlier to a question in the House that there was an increase of six in the Archives since '81. Is that correct? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, that's correc� I indicated that there was an increase of six since 1981. The latest increase brings the staff complement to 29 SYs in the Provincial Archives. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Were all the items that were stolen, have they all been found and returned to the Archives? HON. E. KOSTVRA: No. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate what hasn't been found? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I am just trying to find the information, but nothing further has been recovered than that which I reported in response to her questions in the House back in March. Do you want that detail? MRS. G. HAMMOND: If I could get it. HON.

E. KOSTYRA: It's on Page 705 of Hansard. MRS. G. HAMMOND: If it's in Hansard, then that's fine; I'll pick it up there. MR. CH AIRMAN: 2.(b) (1) - pass; 2.(b )(2)- pass; 2.(c)( 1)-p ass; 2.(c)(2)- pass. Resol ution 46: Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $11 ,835,400 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984- pass. 3.(a)(1) and 3.(a)

(2) Manitoba Gazette: Salaries; Other Expenditures-pa ss. 3.(b)( 1) , 3.(b)

(2) Queen's Printer Mana gement and Brokerage: Salaries and Other Expenditures -the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes. Have there been any changes in this area? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there's been no change. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1) -pass; 3.(b)(2) -the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, is the Queen's Printer overloaded right now with legislation that we're going to have to pass before the end of this Session? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That would be a question that would be better put to the Attorney-General than this Minister, and the Queen's Printer. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I can appreciate that the Minister doesn't want to comment on legislation but surely he must know the workload that's over at the Queen's Printer right now. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm informed that the Queen's Printer is working fine and has no difficulty with the workload at the present time. MR. D. ORCHARD: That's inde ed some what encouraging. Maybe we don't have the legislative load coming in that has been indicated in the statements in the House. Would the Minister care to comment on the statement made by the Chairman of Caucus that the legislation is still to come?

Does th� Chairman of Caucus know something that members of the Cabinet don't know, particularly the member in charge of the Queen's Printer? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I have nothing further to add to that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, that's good to know that the Chairman of Caucus doesn't know what he's talking about. 3396

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: Items should be strictly relevant to the item under discussion. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, once again, I am in total agreement with your ruling. Mr. Chairman, I'm going to beg the indulgence of the Minister because probably the questions I'm going to pose would have been better posed under 1. (

h) Telecommunications, and if the Minister would prefer to do it under his Salary, we can leave it until then or if he wants to do it now while he has staff that he may want to refer to for information, I'll leave that decision up to him. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I'm prepared to be flexible and accommodating with respect to the rules, provided that same kind of accommo dation and flexibility is coming, for a change, from the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister was doing well until he said, "for a change." He knows I'm always accommodating to himself and to the members of the government and I appreciate his accommodation. Mr. Chair man, under Teleco mmun ications - (Interjection) - MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall we pass Queen's Printer then, if you are going to Telecommunications now? MR. D. ORCHARD: I have no more questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3. (c)( 1) - pass; 3.(c)(2 )- pass; 3.(c)(3)--pass. 4.(a) -oh, the resolution first MR. D. ORCHARD: My question's on the resolution, on Communications, while the Minister's staff is here, in case he needs them. MR.

CHAIRMAN: What is the Minister's pleasure? HON. E. KOSTYRA: We'll deal with his questions. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, under Telecommunications, could the Minister indicate why the Telecommunications portion, which floated around under our term and floated around for a while under the first ministerial changes in the Pawley Government, why the sepa ration was made from the Min ister responsible for MTS, now to have it in his department rather than with the Telephone System, the Minister responsible for the Telephone System?

Was there a particular thrust that's coming out that would justify or req uire that change in positio ning of the Telecommunications line? HON. E. KOSTVRA: I can't answer that in the first person knowledge because, as the mem ber is aware, the decision with respect to that change was made by the First Minister. I believe, or I am of the opinion that part of the reason for the change was to have it lodged in the department that had greater resources for a development of policy issues in this area.

Second ly, that as the memb er is aware, Telecommunications issues relate, not only to the kind of -if I can use the term -hardware issues that the Manitoba Telephone System is interested in, but also reflect cultural interests and the broader communication needs of the province, so I belie ve that was, in part, the reason it went into the First Minister's decision when he changed the responsibilities within Executive Council, to have that re sponsibi lity come to the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources, and to me in particular. MR. D.

ORCHARD: I may be able to accept part of the Minister's reasons but I certainly can't accept the part of the answer which indicates that more resources could be dedicated to Telecommunications because the appropriation for the year ending March 31, 19 83, went from $13 6,700 down to year-ending appropriation, March 31, 19 84, down to $75, 100, so Resources can't be the answer. There isn't a greater allocation of resources. Now maybe the Minister touched on it more in a policy direction that the government wishes to put into Communications involving the cultural thrust of Telecommunications. HON. E.

KOSTVRA: I might just elaborate on my earlier answer because it wasn't understood. The comment with respect to resources wasn't that there was a specific increase in the actual appropriation that exists for Telecommunications. As the member can appreciate, the Department of Cultura l Affairs and His torical Resources has additional resources in the policy and planning area and the administrative area that are being used on telecommunications policy development. For example, at the present time, there's work being done by the planning and policy group within the department related to telecommunications policy.

It's work done by and through the Deputy Minister. So when I referred to greater resources, I was referring to the resources that are available within the department. So the fact that the appropriation has decreased is not an indication of less activity in this area, but that it's been using existing resources within the department. We've had people on secondment working specifically on telecommunications policy in specific areas and will be shortly filling a senior policy position that was advertised. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister offers an explanation which I accept.

That explanation, to my knowledge, didn't exist during our term of government. There was, to my knowledge, and I will stand to be corrected if I didn't know where the policy development area in telecommunications policy was emanating from. I don't believe there was a dedication of staff in Cultural Affairs to developing telecommunication policy during our term of office. The Minister has indicated that's correct and I trust he will enlarge on that. The Minister made a second point that there was secondment of resources to his department to develop the teleco mmunications policy.

Might I ask where this resource in terms of people or possibly funding - I suspect it's people -from where that secondment of resource people is coming? Who is providing the additional people? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There's presently one person on staff from the Planning and Policy group that is working 3397

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 on telec ommunications policy and research. There is one person who has been seconded on a half-time basis from the Department of Labour who is working on areas -in fact, I understand that individual was formerly employed by the federal agency CRTC. That's one of the reasons we've used his knowledge from previous employment in helping do research work in this area. As I indicated, the permanent full-time position was bulletined and we expect to get through the hiring and placement process shortly. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Who is the individual from Planning and Policy that is seconded to the department to work on tele communic ation policy devel opm ent? If I understand the Minister's answer correctly, it's someone within the Depar tment of Labour that is CR TC personnel? Would that mean the Federal Government is ... HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'll go through it slowly. I indicated that there was a person who was seconded half-time from the Department of Labour, who previously worked for and was employed by the CRTC.

We're fortunate in having someone in the Department of Labour that had that previous experience which I'm sure the member would appreciate and understand is helpful when dealing with issues that relate to decisions that are made by that agency. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Chairman is not looking, so I'll ask another question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chairman is consulting because of his lack of knowledge. MR. D. ORCHARD: There's nothing the matter with consulting, Mr. Chairman.

Could the Minister provide us the names of those two individuals that are from Planning and Policy and from Labour, who are former CRTC employee and Labour in that case. Could the Minister indicate also whether the $55,900 in salaries in Telecommunications reflects the salary you anticipate to be paid to a person yet to be employed, or whether there will be additional salaries required; i.e., does the $55,900 represent present employees in there and will be supplemented when you hire this person and the figure will increase? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The name of the individual from the Depar tment of Labour that is on half-time secondment is Mr. Alec Jasen. He is on secondment and is no direct charge to the department. The individual from the Planning and Development

section of the Department of Cultural Affairs and Historic Resources is Mr. David Steen, who is not being charged to this appropriation. He's out of the General Planning

section of the department that's a resource to all sections of the department. The $55,900, we are of the opinion will be sufficient to cover the salaries of the person who would be hired and one support staff, one secretary. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is it fair to assume that the person for the position that's been advertised will replace Mr. Smith, who used to be with the department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The position of Mr. Doug Smith was Assistant Deputy Mini ster in charge of telecommunications policy.

There was an additional researcher position, and there's been a decrease from two positions to one and the combination will be a position of senior policy advisor, which is, if I can put it this way, a combination of the former two positions. We felt there wasn't a need to have an Assistant Deputy Minister at that level to do the kind of work, though it had to be something higher than a researcher. MR. D.

ORCHARD: So then you're going to end up with a senior research analyst position plus a secretarial support staff, and those are going to be only two positions that will be within that Telecommunication's salaries and SMYs? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There'll be a senior policy advisor and one secretarial support staff. Yes, there will be two positions in the Telecommunications

section of the department. MR. D. ORCHARD: In devel oping telecom munications pol icy, has the dep artment re tained any outside consultants? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are no outside consultants hi red by the Depar tment of Cultur al Affairs and Historical Resources. There are consultants that have been hired by Crown Invest ments. The name is Nordicity, which is a Toronto telecommunications firm that is doing some work on telecommunications on behalf of the Department of Crown Investments in consultation with our department. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Well, I may have a different line of thinking or approach to this, but why would Crown Investments Department be the retainee for a consultant firm on telecom munications policy when the Premier has given to this Minister and this department the telecommunications function? That seems like a strange sort of an arrangement; unless the consultant was retained prior to the reorganization where this Minister attained the telecommunications responsibility. That doesn't seem to be a workable arrangement. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, I believe it is a workable arrangement.

As the member can understand, the Department of Crown Investments is concerned with the invest ment decisions of the vari ous Crown corporations. Related to that is the possibility of fairly significant investment decisions that may have to be made in the near future by the Manitoba Telephone System in rela tion to issues that wou ld reflect telecommunications policy. So the study, the work and the payment is being done by Crown Investments but is something that we're very much involved in. There is a co-operative arrangement between the two departments to advise and work with the consulting group.

But the Crown Investments is concerned with regard to the impact of Investments' decisions by the Manitoba Telephone System, as it is with other Crown corporations. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister may not either wish to or be able to answer the next several questions 3398

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 pertaining specifically to the consultant. I have to admit I was under the impression that it was retained by his department, hence the reason why I'm questioning now. So I'll pose the questions and if the Minister cannot or chooses not to answer them, so be it. Could the Minister indicate the terms given to the consultant firm?

What terms of investigation in the telecommunications policy have been given by the government to this consulting firm; the length of time in which they are expected to report; whether the report would become part of the public record, i.e., woulo members of the opposition have access to the report from this consultant firm; and if the Minister could indicate what the cost of the consulting firm contract was? And lastly, and I suppose as important as anything, why would the government choose a Toronto firm, an out-of-province firm, to undertake this kind of consulting work on behalf of the government? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I will try to answer all the questions. I think there are half-a-dozen in there. I'll just reply to them as they come back to me. The reason for choosing an out-of-province firm - let me go back first -there was a proposal call from the Department of Crown Investments to a variety of consulting firms.

Reque sts for proposals were mailed to 22 consulting firms; 11 subsequently submitted proposals and the reason for the decision was, it was felt that this firm had the, let's say, overall expertise and knowledge of all areas of study, including the te chnical state-of-the-art, federal-provi ncial jurisdictional issues, the legal and regulatory issues, industrial sector strength. They were, in addition, I am informed the lowest cost and were committed to doing it in the shortest period of time. MR. D. ORCHARD: They were the lowest cost? HON. E.

KOSTVRA: They were the lowest cost of all the proposals that covered all areas. Because of looking at a number of specific areas, some consulting firms only suggested they could do work in one or two areas, where some said that they were prepared to do it in all areas. The project cost is expected to not exceed $4 1 ,500.00. It was originally expected to receive the report within 10 weeks, but that is now passed and it's expected within the next month.

As far as the information from the report being made public, that hasn't been discussed and I would have to reserve on that because I have to see the kind of information that's contained in there and it would have to be a decision of the Minister that's directly responsible for the project. I don't know if I've covered all your questions. MR. CH AIRMAN: Substantial ly. The Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, you 're right - substantially.

If I could just ask the Minister if, when the proposal was called, obviously the proposal set up parameters of investigation or a request; I don't want it line-by-line; I don't want the Minister to read into the record a ten-page proposal, but could the Minister give us a paraphrase of what the government was looking for when they made this prop osal to deve lop Telecommunications policy? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I don't have a copy of the proposal call that went out so I will give a very brief explanation, as I understand the proposal call.

It was basically for the consultants to look at developing recommendations with respect to overall telecommunications policy for the province, specifically , looking at the areas that I mentioned previously, that being the technological state of the art, the evolution of the technology in the telec ommunications field; to look at the issues related to the federal-provincial jurisdiction and responsibility between the Federal Government and the Provincial government; to advise on the legal and regulatory systems and explore other options to give some industrial-sector analysis and also to look at the possible interrelation with film and telecommunications.

That is, in a nutshell, the gist of the proposal call. MR. D. ORCHARD: Were there any Manitoba firms that offered a complete tender? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, there were two; one was Commun icat ions Ma nagement Incorpor ate d; the second one was Appin Communications of Winnipeg. The other nine would be all outside of Winnipeg. MR. D. ORCHARD: I take it from the Minister's previous answer that the Manitoba firms offered a higher tender. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, both did. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, just, I suppose, a general statement.

Telecommunications policy is an area that may breach considerable federal regulation and it's always an area in which you can, shall I say, get into considerable dispute with the Federal Government.

If I could impress upon the Minister that there was considerable interest in policy development in the previous administration and that I think it would be valuable to this Minister and to the government to make available the report that the Minister expects in about a month's time from the consultant firm, breaking down the vari ous aspects tha t the proposal called for information on, the Minister could provide that to the House, I think we could, in some forum -and maybe we have to make the forum -offer some reasonably constructive debate on teleco mmunications poli cy, which I think, not the Minister and the government may benefit from, but indeed all Manitobans may benefit from.

So if I could offer the suggestion to the Minister that when that report is available and he has perused it, if it could be a report that was distributed to the House, I think it cou ld be beneficial in creat ing a tele communications policy that would well serve all Manitobans. I would offer the advice to the Minister that he give every consideration to making his consulting report available to the opposition so that we can provide him some advice on it.

The next question I would have for the Minister is, were he or his Telecommunications Department involved in any of the amendments, for instance, to The Manitoba Telephone System Act that was just tabled today? 3399

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 HON. E. KOSTYRA: Well, we're certainly aware of the amendments that were made in the Act, especially as related to telec ommunications policy. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would it be fair to assume from that answer that the Minister and the department had some input into the drafting of that legislation? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, we had discussions around some of the amendments that were in the Act. MR. D.

ORCHARD: About three, four months ago - no, not even that long ago - in the last couple of months -the Federal Minister of Communications made -for lack of better terminology - a reversal of formal policy on the ownership of TVRO earth receiving stations, whereby individuals can own them and they can be installed in hotels with, for instance, the sports channel broadcast to the bar portion of the hotel, etc. Is the Min ister in basic agreement with that change in ownership policy of TVRO earth receiving stations? MR. CHAIRMAN: Federal jurisdiction. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the Provi ncial Governments in 1980, the Ministers of Communication, adopted a unanimous policy decision, with the exception of the New Democratic Party Minister in Saskatchewan, whereby they belie ved the freeing-up of the ownership policy of TVRO earth receiving stations would be beneficial to the residents of their provinces. That decision, by and large, has been made. My question to the Minister is, is he in agreement with that policy in terms of its benefit to Manitoba citizens? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: First of all, I don't think anyone is quite clear as to how far the Federal Government is intending to go with respect to its change in policy with respect to the earth receiving stations. There's an indication that there will be no objection, or they will be allowed for individuals and for some limited -if I can use the term -commercial use, but the Federal Government is indicating, on the other hand, that it will not allow the use of those receiving means to bring about a difficult situation for existing licensed cable compan ies, wherein that could cause a dramatic decrase in their revenue source.

The area is still somewhat fluid. We have concerns, too, where it would be contrary to the overall needs of a larger community, insofar as the economies that are affected by having a joint syste m. That's one that's enshrined with respect to the use of the equipment, as the member is aware, where the telephone system has the control and ownership of the electronic highway and has been able to expand it to provide services to all Manitobans. The cable companies that use that have been able to have economies because of being able to service a large area.

I would suggest that the ·government would not be opposed to some lesse ning of the regulations, provided that it did not bring about a dramatic shift in that situation, which would impact on the overall residents of the province. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Minister may correct me if I'm wrong, I interpret the answer to be that he basically doesn't have an objection to the adherence to the federal policy. If I misunderstand the federal policy I know that he will correct me; but the federal policy indicates that individuals may own their own TVRO.

Now, theoretically, they're not supposed to pick up American signals, but I don't think the Federal Government has enough inspectors to come around to make sure it's pointed at the right satellite. So that, basically, individuals have been given the open-sky policy option choice. The policy, as it applies, as I understand the Federal Minister's directive, indicates that a hotel owner may establish a TVRO to deliver signals to his bar facility - I think that's the proper term, I haven't been in there for a long time, but I think that's prope• terminology.

He can't distribute the signal to the rooms, but he can put it in the lounge or the bar area. Now, do I basically read from the Minister's last answer that he has no disagreement with that change in policy direction by the Federal Government? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part of your question. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just that, 2s I understand the change in the federal policy, an individual can own the TVRO, put the signals into his home; he can't distribute them to his neigh bour.

Likewise, an entrepreneur in a hotel establishment can own a TVRO and put the signals into either his lounge or his bar area, not into the rooms, as a customer service. I simply ask, was I correct in interpreting the Minister's last answer as being basically in favour of that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: We have no objection to that, provided again, how far it's intended to open up that area. As you indicate, it seems to be limited to the common use area, but not to specific rooms. I just have the concern that we don't allow for deterioration of the overaa system which provides service at equalized rates to all residents.

MR. D. ORCHARD: I may be asking the wrong Minister, but there are a number of communities, for instance, Miami, it's a small community, it only has, maybe, 17 5 homes, 450 people; they are never going to come under the licence of a licensed cable signal del iverer. No one is going to apply for it, basically, I don't think. I know the Minister probably hasn't developed policy on it, but would the Minister basically have any objection if that size of a community pooled their resources, put up a TVRO and attempted to distribute that home to home.

Now, I admit that that would be in contravention of the relaxation of TVRO owner ship polic y, as enunciated by the Federal Minister some two months ago, but it would provide a service to those small communities in rural Manitoba that, in my estimation, for the immediate future, are not going to be given service by, for instance, Valley Cablevision or Westman Media Co-op or Interlake media.

Would the Minister philosphically have any objection to that kind of a move from some innovators in the community, should they wish to do that, i.e. put up a TVRO and attempt to distribute the signal to any number of subscribers within one of those very small vil lages. 3400

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Concordia state his point of order. MR. P. FOX: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I don't believe that members should be asking a Minister to give an opin ion on whether someone should do something illegal or not. I bel ieve it's highly irregular to ask a Minister to give an opinion when we know, and the member himself has expressed that it's illegal to do something. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina, to the same point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Well, Mr. Chairman, definitely on the same point of order.

This Minister is developing communication policy within his department. This government has, and I believe still is, supporting the ill egal operation of TVROs in Northern Ma nitoba communities, providing the exact same service that I am asking if he would support in smaller communities in rural Ma nitoba.

The question - I am not trying to trap the Minister into anything - I want to know whether his policy development bel ieves that that is an area that we should, as a government of the province, whether it be Progressive Conservative or New Democrat, should be moving toward, because I point out, and the Minister I think if he's got any familiarity with the situation which I know he has, will realize that a lot of small communities just simply do not have access to a licenced capable distributor. Their only alternative is to put up about an $8,000 dish per home under the existing policy.

What I am asking the Minister is if he would think that it was a logical policy extension to attempt to get for the people of Manitoba. I don't think that's an unfair question because you're doing it in Northern Manitoba. HON. E. KOSTYRA: On the issue, I believe that we should first be exploring the alternatives to see what kind of service we can help provide for those communities and look at the alternatives of providing inte grated and expan ded service using exist ing operations, or others in the rural areas of the province, because that's particularly where the problem is in rural and northern areas.

Also, I would want to explore further what possibilities there are of those kind of options to be developed within the federal policy, within amended federal policy, before I would want us to suggest that is the only alternative. I think that once we have the opportunity to explore those that we could be in a better position to see if there is ways of getting service provided to the small and, I could say, somewhat remote rural communities that exist.

It seems to me the way that the technology is evolving and changing that there may be alternate ways of doing that, either now or in the very near future, that wouldn't require the same kind of costs that the more traditional systems, as the member can appreciate, the whole telecommunications area, the technology is just swirling around and moving very constant.

I would want to, as a basic policy, attempt to assure that there is service available in all regions and areas of the province, and use the resources available to government through its 3401 agencies and, hopefully, in co-operation with the Federal Government to achieve that. MR. D. ORCHARD: I appreciate the Minister's answer, Mr. Chairman , but when the Mini ster mentions conventional means of signal delivery, I believe, from what I understand of the cost of fibre optic or coax cable intercity bend, ICBN installation, it is beyond the cost of most, it's not economic to do it that way.

The Minister has hit the nail on the head, in that he has said that the area is changing so rapidly that probably the technology is changing far faster then the gov ernme nt has abili ty to deve lop pol icy to accommodate the changing technology. I can recall a meeting some four-and-a-half short years ago with senior officials of Manitoba Telephone System, where they told me that the TVRO was so many years in the future that they had to plough Intercity ICBN cable to link Brandon, to link Dauphin, to link Roblin in the Westman Media Co-op area. That's been proven wrong.

The communities in that service area, who are going to be linked with ICBN, don't have the service, are relying on TVRO right now. To make the next step, because certain communities are licenced in that Westman Media Co-op, and certain communities are licenced with Valley Cablevision, Morden, Carman, Winkler, Altona, but there are Darlingford, Roland, Manitou, Miami -all the Minister has to do is look at a road map and you can see a number of communities that are too small to licence, but yet could avail themselves of current TVRO technology, and put the signal into those communities at a pretty reasonable cost.

That takes a policy on behalf of the Provincial Government to do that and it also requires, and I fully admit, an accommodation of federal policy.

Maybe you have to go through the licencing, I believe, he'd probably have to do that, but all I am asking is that if the Minister, when he's developing communication policy, give that some thought, because I fully believe that satellite del ivery of television signals is probably the only answer to a number of small communities in agricultural rural Manitoba, and a number of smaller communities in the Interlake, and certainly a number of communities that are currently relying out in Northern Manitoba.

If the Minister isn't looking at that from a policy standpoint now, and I am sure that he must be; if he isn't he should be, because that is the next frontier, so to speak, in terms of providing that kind of television service to residents in Manitoba. All I ask the Minister is to give it consideration to make sure that policy development would accommodate those kinds of future requests. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, I certainly will because, certainly, if I can enunciate an overall policy of the government, announce it again, is to do whatever is possible to provide equal services to all regions of the province.

We are working toward that to anticipate that some of the work that's being done by the consultants will be of assistance in this area. We have met recently with Westman Media Co-op to work with them on their problems. In fact, I met with them in Roblin last Friday and will be meeting again with them within the next short while. We have had a meeting with the Federal Minister to talk about the whole area of issues related

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 to tele .com munications and there has been staff meetings with the Deputy Minister of DOC and of our department, so we're working on those and trying to see that we can come up with solutions and come up with them in a co-operative fashion, if that's possible, with the Federal Gover nment, but cer tainly the government's concern is to ensure that all residents of the province have service.

I appreciate the comments of the member and I know that he wants to reinforce it because of the part of the province that he represents which I know contains a number of communities of the size that he mentions, but I can assure the Minister that I too, see and understand the needs of those communities and, as he knows, have driven some of those roads in the past and through some of those communities, so I appreciate his comments and we'll certainly be working in the very near future on tho::;e very issues. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution No. 47: Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $734, 10 0 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources tor the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1984- pass. 4.(a), (4)(b) -the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate what the Construction and Capital Grants entails? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets tor St. Norbert Heritage Village, which is work in the Turenne and Bohemier Ho use, is $36, 10 0.00.

The continuing work on building surveys in rural Manitoba is $101 ,700, which is just slightly less than what was expended last year on that program. Work on the Van Horne Rail Car, which is part of the museum in Portage la Prairie, is $5,000; building stabilization is estimated to be $10, 000.00. In Capital Grants, there is $1 97,000 earmarked for the Manitoba Centen nial Centre Corporation which is for an emergency lighting plant. The Museum of Man and Nature Capital Grants is $220,000; there was the same amount last year .

There is $48,0 00 set aside for emergency Capital repairs at any of the provincial supported cultural institutions. Last year, in that area, there was a total of $90,000 set aside for Capital Works, Capital Grants at the CCFM at the Winnipeg Art Gallery, so it is a smaller amount this year and it's basically going to be for any emergency repairs that may have to be done. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Were any of these funds transferred to the Jobs Fund? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The amount that I indicated at the start this afternoon, wherein last year. there were multicultural Capital Grants of $65,000.00. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 4.(a)- pass; 4.(b)- pass. Resolution No. 48: Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $6 17 ,800 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 84- pass. Back to the Minister's Salary, 1.(a) -the Member for Pembina. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Motion to increase? A MEMBER: Don't push your luck. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I'm just want to make a couple of comments on the Minister's Salary and I make them from the standpoint that I know the Min ister has justified his es tabl ish ment of a co mmuni cations officer by sayi ng that everyone requested it and it's needed -or a lot of people requested it -but I would just refer the Minister to the comments of a former notable member of the New Democratic Party, one Sidney Green, and his comments. The Member for Concordia indicated, "no longer," and he's right. Mr.

Green no longer is a member of the New Democratic Party and I think that many of the members over there should reflect on why he isn't because I think, by and large, he's offered them some sound advice which, should it be followed, would not help our cause in the opposition, and I'm pleased to see that they're not following his advice. But knowing the eminent reasonableness of this Minister, I know that he will follow good advice when it's given, and if he were to read some of Sid Green's comments on news services.

The Minister says some of Sid Green's comments are ringing in his ears and they should be, but if he were to read his comments on the news service -you see, Mr. Chairman, whether we like to admit it or not, news service has become, throughout the various media that depend upon it, a voice of the policy of government, a voice that is non political, that simply reflects what the government is doing. The criticism of any opposition of a government is that they politicize and they propagandize news services.

I believe that this government and now this Minister, as well as others, are going the step beyond where they're going to be able to say, no, we didn't politicize news services; we simply politicized our departments and we put our own communications people in place. What you're going to do is flood the various local newspapers, radio stations, television stations with a myriad of news releases to try to prop up the image of your department and your government.

All I can tell you is that if you read Sid Green's comments, he will tell you it will not work, and when it doesn't work, I simply ask you why waste the taxpayers' money trying to make it work. Your responsibil ity, first and foremost, is to the taxpayers of the Province of Manitoba. If you are abusing the tax fund s given to you in trust by establishing a propaganda department or a propaganda arm within your department, you are doing a disservice to the taxpayer and a disservice to the people of Ma nitoba.

I know that this Mi nis ter is emi nently reasonable and will take comments from members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition in the true spirit with which they are offered. Further expansion next year and the year after, of this communications arm that he is establishing in his department, will be subject to criticism, number one, and will not help him polish the image of his department or his government. That's all I want to offer to the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (a)- pass. 3402

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 Resolution No. 45: Resolve that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $2,975,00 for Cultural Affairs and Historical Resources for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 19 84- pass. What is the pleasure of the committee? Committee rise. SUPPLY - COMMUNITY SERVICES AND CORRECTIONS MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Community Services and Corrections. Item 5.(d)(1) . The Mem ber for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

At the time that committee rose to permit Private Mem bers' Hour to take place, at 4:30 p.m., the Minister was responding to some questions about the position that Mother's Allowance recipients hold and enjoy at the present time, and his immediate plans for the future, insofar as work experience programs are concerned under this branch of the department. I had suggested that I had a couple of questions I wanted to ask him, that we might be able to conclude our consideration of that sec tion by 4:30.

I think we just missed accomplishing that, but I don't think that is serious because we knew we were going to be back here tonight anyway. I just felt that that was a target we might aim for, but I'm not sure that the Minister completed his remarks, or satified my curiosity entirely on the point.

I'm still not clear as to whether what we're talking about here is an abstract hypothetical situation, or whether, in fact, he has developed a practical means of getting Mother's Allowance recipients off welfare and into the work force in a way that is positive and productive, and also economically reasonable for them and their children. Can the Minister just explain a little further what he has in mind here? There was considerable criticism, and we've gone over that, over what was inferred from the pilot project that he ran last year.

What was inferred was that Mother's Allowance recipients were being proferred something that was not worth taking; they were better off sta ying on Mother's Allowance. The Minister has pointed out that was only a pilot project; there was no cost sharing for it, and that the rules of the game that he is considering now are quite different.

The rules of the game that he is considering now would permit Mother's Allowance clients to enter into work experience projects in this programming area, and still receive their Mother's Allowance welfare payments, and be paid an additional allowance for engaging in work experience; and that those programs will be cost shared. I was asking the Minister, Mr. Chairman, when he expected to get into that kind of program and, at this point, I would ask him what kind of take-up he expects on that program? HON.

L EVANS: Well, as I explained prior to the 4:30 break, we are just now ready to move on this new phase of the program. I might add that we have had enquiries from rural municipal councils, some of the towns in Manitoba where they are concerned about providing opportunities for people who are on municipal welfare and, of course, these are the able-bodied type, and in many cases some of these people do wish to have an opportunity to get a little bit of training and have a work experience, etc. So, to that extent, we will be able to accommodate some of those rural centres.

The Mother's Allowance money, as I said, was a very small amount of money that we had available, it was on a bit of a pilot project, or experimental basis, but it was really a job creation thrust. The $1 25,000, I think, we accommodated 41 persons whom we took off of Mother's Allowance for various periods of time, but that money soon ran out and, as I observed this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, we now have, through the Department of Labour and Employment Services, many many job creations programs, many many more dollars, millions of dollars for job creation.

So there is an opportunity for some of those people to get placed in job programs. Our employment counsellors, many of whom are attached to the Income Security offices, at least physically located there, are able to help many of these same people on Mother's Allowance, find these various jobs and job opportunities that are now being offered through the funding of the Department of Labour and Employment Services.

We belie ve our role is that of training the socially disadvantaged so, to the extent that we can identify socially disadvantaged Mother's Allowance recipients, namely, that category of people on our Social Allowance program who we think could benefit by coming into the Human Resource Opportunity Program.

We are now in a position, as of the beginning of this month, virtually, to bring on persons who are in the category of Mother's Allowance; but not only just those, others who are Social Al lowance recipients, and provide them with the opportunity, as I said, of some Human Development Life Skills Training, an oppor tunity to work. They continue to draw their welfare monies, their Social Allowance monies, and they get the $40.00.

So, in some cases, it depends on the size of the family, it depends on the situation; in some cases, that allows them to net more money than the simple $4.50 per hour that we were paying under that very tiny program. That was a very very small program and, as I said, $1 25,000 doesn't go very far, when you are paying $4.50 an hour it disappears pretty fast. We think we can accommodate many many more times; I can't say, I wouldn't want to say specifically , categ orical ly, how many people we are going to accommodate, but it will be many times 41.

I would hope it's into the few hundreds, or a couple hundred, or several hundred; I'm not really sure, I can't tell you at this point, but it will be certainly many more times the 41 that we were able to accommodate under this smaller program. As I said, also, we are not going to jump before looking. We would like to try it in one or two of the smaller municipalities in Manitoba, those municipalities who are interested in co-operating with us, and go from there and just see how it works.

If it does work, and I think it will, then we will presumably spread it around the province through all of the Human Resource Centres that we have and, hopefully, help a lot of disadvantaged people. But ultimately and essentially it's a training program for socially disadvantaged, whether they are those types who are on Mother's Allowances, or whether they are young males, or men with families, or whatever their category. 3403

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 MR. L. SHERMAN: And the Minister can look forward to cost sharing on that program, even with the changed terms of reference, is that correct? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, that's always an important consideration, and we have had discussions with the appropriate officials in Ottawa and we have assurances -well, we have it in writing -that, not only is the procedure that I've outlined acceptable, but they will also cost share on the $40 allowance, which is meant to cover cost of transportation, lunch money or any other expenses incurred in the process. MR. L.

SHERMAN: I thank the Min ister for that information, Mr. Chairman, we'll certainly look forward with antici pation and interest to the success, or otherwise, of that thrust. One final question on this part of the Estimates, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to ask the Minister where we stand with respect to that administrative and bureaucratic change that he was talking about last year for Work Activity Proj ects, wherein he pro posed that the executive position at the head of work employment projects, in each individual project's case, should be divided into two jobs and there should be two functions carried out; one being the function of the Employment Services Co-ordinator I believe; and the other one being the function of the Manager of the Work Activities Project itself.

At that time, there was certainly concern on my part, and on the parts of many others, that it was an unnecessary proliferation of bureaucracy and would lead to unnecessary additional expense. The Minister claimed to be looking at that as a direction in which he intended to go, or thought he might go, with respect to all of the Work Activity Projects, and that's how the whole hassle over the Westbran project in Brandon began, that and the individual who was appointed to one of those roles. Where does the Minister stand now on that philosophy of dividing that leadership job in the Work Activity Projects? HON. L.

EVANS: As I said, we did separate them. There may be one exception, but it's a very small project, otherwise these functions are separated. I remember the member's concern last year about the additional cost that this would incur. As I have already pointed out in the statistics, really we are getting much more efficiency than we had previously.

The cost per participant day has gone down sharply, as I indicated this afternoon; we've held the staff constant on the projects and in the employment services area and, generally speaking, we are continuing to move in the area of increased productivity, increased efficiency, so I'm very satisfied. In fact, I'm very, very pleased with what the staff have accomplished under the new policy directives, and I think the taxpayers of Manitoba should be very pleased that we've redu ced the cost for Participant A from $55.65 to $34.63.

We have a staff participant ratio last year that was 1 to 4.6 participants; today, or as of April, it is 1 to 10.2 participants. So there has been a substantial increase in the efficiency, the productivity, the performance. I believe the people, the taxpayers of Manitoba, are being much better served now with these new arrangements that we've put into place. The staff have done an excellent job. They've responded to our new policy directives, and I belie ve that we can even make further strides.

I was very delighted that in the Eastman area, in particular, we were able to put a project in place with no addition to staff. In fact, we used some of our employment counsellors there and, as I indicated, in the Eastman region, we have 33 participants being served and we haven't added to staff whatsoever. We are using some of the exis ting perso nnel in the department.

We've got a program that is far more cost-efficient We're helping more people and, indeed, we're seeing some significant, I would suggest, savings in terms of the caseload that we are serving in terms of helping those disadvantaged people that we're trying to help. We've more than doubled the number of participants, April to April. The cost per participant day is down, the ratio of staff to participants is certainly improved, and we are doing it essentially with the same staff. There has been really no change to speak of in the staff. MR. L. SHERMAN: But I repeat my question, Mr.

Chairman; perhaps it wasn't very clear. Are the top jobs in the Work Activity Projects now split into two? Are there two senior officers instead of one? HON. L. EVANS: As I indicated, we have attempted to split the role of the Regional Co-ordinator from that of the Manager of the project, and I understand that that has been accomplished in all with the exception of one, so we have not added.

As a matter of fact, if you go down the list, you will see in most of the projects there have been, for example, in Winnipeg there is one additional staff, but in the Interlake there are two less staff; the Parklands is constant; Central is one less staff; Eastman, we introducted the program with no new staff. So we have split the function but we haven't added any staff. What we've done is used the senior person who was unde r the !:!eg ional Co-ordinator to assume that responsibility. In every case they're very small groups of people.

Winnipeg and Brandon are the larger ones, but you take the Interlake, you're only talking about 4 people; Parklands 5 people; Central 6 people; and Eastman we're simply using the existing field staff that we had there. We didn't set up in the Eastman project, we didn't come along and say now we have to hire new people on contract to do this; this was not the course we followed, we simply utilized some of the regional field staff in the employment counselling area, and we've got 33 participants being served.

So really there's no staff participant ratio that exists because there are no staff that have been hired on a project per se. We haven't added to the staff. In each case the senior person under the Regional Co-ordinator is more or less in command, if you will, of the project. Having said that there's a great deal of co-operation and liaison. There has to be, it's the nature of the beast, so to speak; the nature of the problem; the nature of the service to the socially disadvantaged people that we're attempting to help. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(d) ( 1) - pass; 5.(d)(2)- pass; 5.(d)(3)- pass; 5.(d)(4)-pass. 3404

Thursday, 2 June, 1983 Resolution No. 34: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceed ing $5 1 ,978, 700 for Community Services and Corrections, Rehabilitative Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March 19 84- pass. Item 6.(aX 1) , Social Security Services, Administration: Salaries. The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could ask the indulgence of the Minister, and the Chair, Sir, to deal with 6.(

c) prior to 6.(

a) in order to accommodate the Honourable Mem ber for Portage la Prairie who has got another commitment and would like to at least place on the record a couple of questions with the Minister relative to day care and nursery school services in Portage la Prairie. HON. L. EVANS: 6.(c)? llllR. L. SHERMAN: Yes, and then refer to 6.(a). Would that be all right? HON. L. EVANS: That's quite all right by us, Mr. Chairman, no problem. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thanks very much, Mr. Chairman, and I would thank the Minister, through you.

I know my colleague, the Member for Portage la Prairie, wanted to put some questions on the record in this area, so I'll defer to him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. l. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and to you, Mr. Minister, for responding to my request. First, Mr. Minister, I would like to ask if your Legislative Assistant, the Member for Wolseley, brought to your attention the concerns that have been raised by the president and board of the Portage la Prairie Co-operative Nursery School regarding the funding for that operation, Mr. Minister? HON. L.

EVANS: I am advised that not only my legislative assistant but also our senior staff person in day care have met with the group I bel ieve the honourable member is refe rring to. This, as I understand, is a nursery school and, as such, we do not fund nursery schools. That is not our mandate. Our mandate is in the child care, full-time day care. I'm advised this is a part-time nursery school and it is not our mandate or, at least, we haven't deemed it to be our mandate anywhere in Manitoba yet . Originally, seven years ago or so, there was some funding, about 90 part-time centres.

So for the last several years, there's been no new funding occurring. MR. l. HYDE: Well, Mr. Minister, I wonder if you could explain then why the Trinity Nursing School qualifies for government funding, for example. The Portage Co operative Association has had correspondence with your department, and I would like an explanation for these people as to why today the Trinity Nursing School is getting funding when this here other nursery school can't. I wonder if you could explain that to me. HON. L.

EVANS: As I indicated, in the very beginning when the progrm started, there was some funding of these part-time nursery school services, but really the demand today is for full-time day care spaces to enable women essentially to go to work. That's where we have to put our money, and that's what we're doing. I suppose if we had many many millions of dollars extra, we could consider something else, but that is not considered to be our mandate.

What the member is asking about is a problem that he sees, but I want to advise the member that the policy we're following today with regard to funding is exactly the same policy that's been in place for at least the last four years. We're not doing anything different than was done, for instance, under the previous administration. MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr. Minister, what is the difference then between these two nursery schools? One is being fund ed in Portage la Prairie and the other one apparently can't be funded. I just don't understand why there is a difference in the two schools. HON. l.

EVANS: I am advised that the reason is one of them, the original one, was funded way back, so it's got, as they say, grandfather rights. MR. L. HYDE: That's not a good enough point. HON. L. EVANS: Well, grandmother rights. The other one is relatively new. My information is that in '77 or thereabouts, under the Lyon Administration, a decision was made to cut out funding of any new day nursery part-time projects that came along. We haven't changed that policy. So the policy change was made during the previous Conservative Administration at the beginning of it, and we've carried on with it.

That policy was initia ted during the be ginning of the previous Conservative Administration. I'm not trying to be critical or anything; I'm just giving you the information. We haven't changed that policy. The problem we have today is simply not enough funds to get into what is considered by a lot of people a peripheral area. Our main thrust is full-time day care, as we said, to enable essentially mothers, in some cases maybe fathers, to get out and work. MR. l. HYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Minister, this is hard to explain to the people back home.

The information that I have got right now is that the Trinity Nursery School was funded during the Schreyer years. It is hard for me to explain to these people that why should there be a difference betweeen the two schools. They're giving a service equal to the general public and the need is there. I would like a better explanation if I can get it from you, sir, as to why there is a difference in the two schools. As I said earlier, the Trinity Nursery School was started under the Schreyer administration and I see no reason why there should be a difference in the funding.

The Portage Co-operative Nursery School, I believe, started two years ago now. I believe it's two years. HON. L. EVANS: Well, as I understand, the nursery school program is very short-term, two hours maybe 3405

Thurs day, 2 June, 1983 in the morning or two hours offered in the afternoon. Although funds were found in the very initial years of day care programming and the Government of the Day did go into this peripheral area, as I said, the decision was made simply because of the demand for full-time day care services, to put all the money into the full time day care program. So one has it because of, as I said, grandfather-grandmother rights. I am not that familiar with the specifics. The Trinity Nursery School is the one that is being funded, I gather? MR. L. HYDE: Right. HON. L.

EVANS: The one that isn't being funded is the Portage Nursery School? MR. L. HYDE: It is the Portage Co-operative Nursery School. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Portage Co-op. You see, the Trinity Nursery School -that's at the Trinity United Church -is only operative two hours a day, 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. That kind of program is not the program that we have to put the priority on.

That is not our priority; our prior ity has to be with providing services to look after chi ldren, because they need the services of someone to look after the children so the parents can go to work during the day 9 a.m. to 11 a.m., or 3 to 5, or 2 to 4 in the afternoon. Money spend in the that area does not help people get out into the work force. I'll give you an example of a regular child care centre down in Carman, just south of Portage, more or less, the Wee Care Child Centre. They look after children 2 to 12 years of age and their hours are from 7:30 a.m. to 6 p.m. in the evening.

I'll give you an example of a day care centre in Portage la Prairie, the Wee World Day Care Centre, it has 50 spaces and it operates from 7 a.m. Iii 6:30 p.m. in the evening. See, those are the kinds of centres where we are wanting to put our money, that we've got to put our money. Those are the priority centres because they are the centres that are offering the service to enable the parents to go and work. Putting mone y into nursery schools does not accomplish that.

Now it may seem inequitable that one nursery school gets funded and the other one doesn't but, as I said, it's a matter of historical rights, if you will. As I said, also, that decision was made maybe when the Member for Fort Garry was Minister, I don't know, maybe it was some other Minister, but my understanding is that policy was in place throughout the four years of the previous Cons ervative administration.

I would love to say, if we could get some money to put into this, but we right now don't have enough money, in my mind, as much money as I would like, to expand the spaces, I would like to do more on standards and so on. Therefore, the Nursery School Program isn't a high priority with us; that's what it is. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would have to check the records with respect to any decision that the previous Progressive Conservative Government may have made on this subject.

I do not recall having been party to any such dictum but, even if we were, even if we did do that, I think that the Minister is dragging a red herring into the debate. The fact of the matter is that the Trinity Nursery School is still being funded. The Mi nis ter says that the previous Progressive Conservative Administration terminated that kind of funding. Well, obviously we didn't terminate it for the Trinity Nursery School because they're still being funded. Insofar as the Co-op School is concerned, it didn't even exist when we were in government; it cam into existence, I think, two years ago.

It perhaps came in at the very tag end of our administration. What the Member for Portage la Prairie is asking is how does the Minister justify, under his government, an anomaly which finds two identical schools being treated in di verse and di vergent ways by the gover nment. Regardless of what the previous administration may have done, this Minister and this government have to face up to the question of what they're going to do about nursery schools.

If the Minister is sayi ng, the only nursery school in the Portage la Prairie area that's going to receive support from the New Democratic Government is the Trinity Nursery School, fine, let's get it on the record, but don't try to blame it on the previous administration, because that school is still being funded so we couldn't have cut that funding out for therr. and, insofar as the Co-op School is concerned, it didn't exist at the time that the Minister says our admin istration made a decision to terminate such funding. HON. L. EVANS: Just to get this clear.

In '77, in '78 and '79 there were no day care spaces, no new day care spaces put into place by the Government of the Day. When the Honourable Member for Fort Garry was in office there was no expansion whatsoever. Trinity was put into place under the previous NOP Government at the very beginning. The decision in '77, '78, '79, no expansion; when the Honourable George Mi naker became Minister in '80-81 expansion took place, but a decision was made at that time to put all of those monies into the regular day care program, and none whatsoever into nurseries, new nurseries.

The old ones, it was decided to carry on, that we wouldn't terminate anybody, so no one is being terminated, but if it's of any comfort to you there are 75 part-time nurseries in Winnipeg, comparable to your Portage Co-op Nursery School, that received no funding either; 75 in the City of Winnipeg that receive no funding, and for the same reason, they're not the priority. We've got a limited amount of money and we have to put the money in the area of greatest need, and the area of greatest need is full-time regular day care. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Well, Mr.

Minister, I wonder if you would give the courtesy to these people in Portage la Prairie, the Portage Co-operative Nursery School, the courtesy of a letter to them. They've had correspondence with your department asking for an explanation, a full explanation on this, and it's been in your hands for some months now and they have not received a single word in response to their request. I am wondering if you would be good enough to see that these people get a full explanation of that program, and the reason 3406

Thu rsd ay, 2 June, 1983 why they are not funded when the other nursery school in Portage la Prairie is getting the funding. HON. L. EVANS: Well, I would like to make sure I heard the member right. He says that they sent a letter to me or to the staff. MR. l. HYDE: Yes. HON. L. EV ANS: We can check the files; that's very unusual. We like to pride ourselves in answering all correspondence. If the member has a copy we can maybe photostat it. We certainly would be very desirous of replying to people and giving them explanation, having the regional staff, if necessary, sit down with them and explain.

If a letter was received and not answered, that was an error, an oversight, but certainly we would want to respond to anybody who writes to us and, God knows, our mail is stacked up this high every day. We go through it every day and we do our very best to answer everybody . We can't always give a positive answer; it's always nice to give positive answers. If we haven't responded to the Portage Co op Nursery School that is unfortunate. If the member happens to have a copy of the letter that they sent us we'd be glad to get a photstat of it and then we could pursue it for

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-2-80b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 2nd hansardpdf 80b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	476becbc15e79abc60fb185911f8b0098730f8ee

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