VOL. 1 Pl:lELIMINAllY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD FRIDAY, JULY 20, 1979 MO. 6 ...

J;oly :v. 1979 rape 1'*9 EC - 1 T:1.e r".ouse cec a c. lO: 00 t\.M. ~r. Spe~er in the ~~air. :<IR. S:C'E:W::R: (Simms) Order, please! STATE:1ENTS BY HINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the ?relllier. E'REMIER ?ECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, contract discussions between the N-foundland Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers and the t-lewfoundland ?'ish Trades Association and a contract setting out fish ?rices for inshore fisheries hava apparentiy reached an impas ·se and the unicm is presentiy in the process of taking a strike vote.

Because of the great importance of tlla inshore fishery t;.o this E'rovince and the need to ensure t.'lat this SUIIIIIIIlr's fishing season is not diSr1JPt.ad by a strike, some weus ago ! instructed the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Oi"hn) and the :<linister of <'isheries (Mr. W. Carter) t.o meet with both sides in the dispute with a view t.o obtaining a clear understanding of the nature of the differences between the two parties. As a result of these talks, it ~ bec:ollll!l clear that the issuas at stake in the strike are 1110re than 1:."1is year's prices.

Both sides appear to feel that some fairly major sttuc:tural changes are necessary in the way in "'hich fisn pricas are set. Obviously, any such changes must first be the subject of intense st:udy. Consequentiy, I have instructed the Minister of Fisneries and =.'le Ninister of Labour and Manpower to place before the two parties by '~ednasday of next week a proposal which "'ill, ! hope, be acceptable ::.o both parties.

This proposal will have three basic elements~ ll that Newfoundland Fishermen, Food and Allied Workers and the Fish Trad8s decid8 on the prices to be paid this year; 2) that the federal and provincial gove:rnments, together with the trade and the union agree to meet to develop quality standards and inspection procedures for all species so t.~at a price system based on quality can be placed in effeCt: by next year's fishing season; 3) that a special committ:ee be formed upon wni~~ both the t.racie and the union "'ill be represented to study the need eo ~ake cnanqe~ in tlle me~~od by wni~~ fish prices are est.ablisned. 364

.J.uJ.y 2J. 1979 Tape H 9 ::c - - ~n view of t.'le critical need co h.ave a !;table envirolllllent w:tlerein prices fair to both the erade and. the '.:."lion a.;-e est.~Dlishaci, it is 1rl'f holM' that both parti.~ will aqree that this proposal can provicie t.'le basis on wilich. current contract neqotiatiol1s can be ccncl.uded so t:hat 365

,;;.lly 20, 1979 !?RE:-liER l?EC:~RD: l979 in a noa~al. =nnu. SONE UON. MEMBERS : .. 1R. :;?EAKER: (Simms) Verde. Tape ~o. 150 SD - l the insl:lcre fishery ::an proceed dw:ing iieiiJ:. neil.r. The i1cn. member fer Trinity - Bay de i-lr. Speaker, this possibility of tnis suika occ=i:lq sometime tcwa.rds tha end. of next week : am sure is a source of deep concern and. warry fer all !Iewfoundlanders. This time of the yea.r in particula.r the fishing inQusuy is the bacldlcne of t."le econcmy of tilis Province and. if a suike were 1:0 occur, Mr.

Speaker, it would be a great tragedy in this Province t.~is year . we walcome tile news from the ?remier that they are going to ;;>resent tiu:ee proposals or they are coming u? with three proposals tc try to decicie \JPOn a. ..-r::.c" for at least this yea.r, and hopefully hold off a strike situation. I am glad that the t:.loiO levels of government plus t.'le '-U\iQn will try to do scmetiling about relatinq fish quality control and. prices, ~~.J.ate them ootn tOgether, because I t.'J.i.nk that !:hat is one of !:he casic problems with ::espect w ~.·~ pricing of fish in this particular Province.

I do not ~tant tw ..Al cliche ish about this, cut we nave known about the possibility · of !:his str~e now fer some weeks if net months,and I would nave hoped that t.'J.e governmen~ would have seen fit c.c dQ something before this p~icular -ek. The Premier did indicate, of c:ow:se, t.'lat t.'le :ti.nister of t.abow: and :.tanpcwer (iir. J. Dinn) and. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. w. Carter) i:ad made initial ,?roposals and I am happy to near al::out tnat.

I just sincerely nope - I am sure I am axpressinq the 1o1ish of r:rt c:oJ.leaques here - I si ncerel.\' :..:.:;;;:; t.~at til.is move t.'lat will take place next '·~ednesday will not be too late and. :hat t.~e p::cposals brought before ::::1e Newfoundlalld .E'ishe:rmen , l:ood and Allied workers Onion and. to t.'le fish uades, the ccmpan.J.,..; involved, will be acceptable co !:cth side and that a strike will be averted. We sincerely nope that !:hat strike 1o1ill be aver~ed 366

J ul. 1 :0 , lY 79 ~ape i.SO :;o - 2 :.ut. F. ROwE: t:.'l.is tea:r. Sir, I have i:lCt seen in detAil th!!· i':temieJ:'s :u.nis~ria.l Statemen:t on this ao I can coe ct:nliment an it ia cietail. ~e only thinq I c:a.a do on bebalf of JAY collaaC)Ues in be House here t!Us 1110rninq is ap;-ess the s~est hope tha.t the .unister of Fisheries (~. W. Ca:&tl!rl ai1!Ci the l'!inister af La1:low: am <tanpower (:t= • J.

Dinn) w.i.ll be ~sful atlli .tile t:hree p.ropoiHI.,l.z that will be made 1:!) the wa.to:a. ~ tc the· companies will ~ acceptahJ.e,aa particularly ~ Urst p:toposal..J ~t of t::y.inq to dec~da upo.n a price f~r this year am, Secomilz rtyinqill fisQ qual,J.ty cont=ol with the price di tne 367

:uly 20, 1!?7'? Tape ~o. 151 !.lN - 1 fish will be a successful mechanism in keeping the fishing industry continuing throughout this year and hopefully in ~~e years to coma without any threaes of strikes whi~~ would be very damaging eo our econo~. SOME HON. ~'!EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (SIMMS) The hon. Minister of '~ines and Energy. MR. L. BARRY : ~. Speaker, I would like to table i.."'l the House this :norning a copy of the referral to the Board of commissioners of Public atilities which has been made by trewfoundland and t.al:lrador Hydro for revised power rates for 1979 and 1980.

The referral is a presentation bv aydro requesting that the Public atilities Board recommend co Cabinee a twO seage increase in electricity rates. The first stage is a proposed 10 per cent increase at the consumer level to be effective October 15th., 1979 and the second stage is a proposed increase of. 6 per cent to be effective April 1st., 1980. The referral points out t~~~ nydro's operating cost will increase from $68.6 million per year in 197S to Sl02.9 million per year in 1980 with fuel and interest making up 85 per cent of this ·increase. And that is, Mr.

Speaker, over a twO year period an approximate 50 per cent increase in operating costs. And it is easy to see why this has happened when one considers that the price of petroleum products in the Middle East has increased just recenely by close to 60 per cent.

At a press conference this morning the Chief Executive Officer of ~ewfoundland and t.al:lrador Hydro will be giving details as to why in H~=c's view t~ese increases are necessary to recover the cost of service plus a margin of profits sufficient to achieve and maintain, first, a sound financial. position and ,secondly, a sound credit rating in the financial markets of the ·NOrld. The timing and scheduling of the formal. hearings will be decided by the Public ~tilities Soard. 368

.July 10, L~79 '!'ace No. 131 ";W - 2 :'!!t. t. • 3A!t!~Y : I belie ve t:.!lat ::.!'le : equi rement to !lave :!te ope::ations of ~ewfoundland a.nd LAbrador ~yc:! :o subjected =o ?Ublic sc :ut~Y by ~:ofessional accountants, l awyers , economists, consume r qroups, :epresentativ e s of municipa.l.iti es and ~liticians i s a majo r seep !orward in pu.blic partici? a tion i n the seetinq of enerqy ?rices. This administration is ? roud, ~ r. Speaker, of 369 ·'

.;uly 20, 19 79 Tape No. 152 NM - l MR. EIARRY: t.''l.e introduction of the Elec'l::ical.

Power Control Ac'l:, which I had the opportunity of reco1111111mcU.ng, as ilon. melli:len might recal.l, as early as 1975, whic.'t the hen. the Premier piloted through this House in 1977 and which for the first time penti.ttad wide ranqing pu.blic hearings on proposed elec'l::ricity rates. lie look forward to the pu.bllc hearings, we encouraqe constructive and responsible intervention, and we are confident of the cap¥lilities of the Hydro Corporation to respond professionally to the incisive questioninq and criticism which is inherent in the open debate allowed by the public hearinqs.

We believe l:.."l.at the opportunity for such debate is healthy and in the end extremely beneficial to Hydro, government and the ultimata electrical consum.r. We intend to deal expeditiously and responsibly '"'itll the nco1:!11181ldations when they are received from the Pu.blic atilities Board. SOME !!ON.. MEMBEllS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEA!Cl:R: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. !-'..R. JAMIESON: Mr.

Speaker, I do not wish to co~nt in detail in the al:lsenca of a taxt of the statement and may I just parenthetically say that I am sure tllat it is not a dali.berate discourtesy but I would be appreciative, and I tbink my colleagues would, if in cases of this nature where there are s'l:atistics and the like involved if we might perhaps be given some advance oppor'l:unity to look at a ministerial statement.

I am no'!: talking about days, a few hours or something like that because it is not, of course, possible for me to really exallline it in its totality. 'Nhat does concern me, of cour.;e, what is· clear here, is that once again, regardless of the process that the non. meW!er has outlined, the hon. cinis~r, and I do not have the confidence in it that he does, that I fear that "'hat will be the enci result of this is of course that it ·•ill go to the members of the C¥linet and the final question is wb.etil.er l:..'l.e members

July 20, 10>79 '!.'ape ;)fo . 152 of Cabinet at t.'tat point are simply qoi.ng to ~ve an opportunity to say, "Well, these hearings have been held and consequently 1 reqardless of what the strain is on the consumer, we have no a~ternative but to qo along with the recOIIIIIIe;ldations." I.n other words, to use a vernacular phrase, it is a bit of a. cqp out.

Einless the me!Dbers opposite in the Cabinet ~ prepared on occasions when these rate increase recCllllllllmciations cGlllle through, unless they are ~repared to realize that they are horrendous, that they are qoing to be in many cases snockinqly, shoc:Jtinqly,,deva;statingly hard on some consumers,anci to say that regardless of the. rationale, reqarciless of the econcalists, reqardless of the experts, that the consumer group in there is qo,illq to hava a vary satisfactory voice, :ll:lllf that will only happen, I suqqest, Mr. Speaker, if the 371

July 20, 1979 Tape 153 PK - l Mr. Jamieson: government is also prepared to ensure thac the consumer groups are given full access to all of the facts, and thac they are given the leqal kind of support that they need, and that they are given the tillle and the money, and give them all of those things; and, incidantally,it is also I think important, the hen. minister made reference almcst as an attert!lought to the fact that politicians ware going to take a look at this, I hope thac a means will be found , if one does not already exist,so that we can debate these kinds of raises in the House itself.

Now I am perfectly well aware,as the hen. minister stated on the Throne Speech debate,that energy is a serious problem.

But on the other hand I think equally serious, indeed far more serious in many respects 1 is going to be the enormous impact and to say, as was said in this Rouse, that there is nothing anybody can do about it1 and that we might as well recognize that this is one of the elements that is built in 1surely means , that all of these hearings and the li.lce are going to be a charade unless at the end of the precess everybody in the government is prepared to say that, regardless of how logical this presentation is, something must be done in order to ensure that the small consumer of energy, I am talking about - I quite agree with the Premier yesterday when he talked about getting more-or the Minister of Finance (Dr.

J. Collins) out of industrial users in some instances, but that the ordinary consumer is not just going to have to simply lie back and take it simply because all of the logic in the world says that it is gone up here or it gone up there or we hava reached world prices. Let me just repeat a couple of statistics which give you some idea of what is going to be involved here.

If there had not even been the OPEC increase of the last man~, and a half, if that had not taken place at all, if we were paying world prices before the new one dollar a barrel went on,a consumer of 1,200 gallons of fuel oil in Newfoundland, which is not a large amount, particularly if we have a hard Winter, the bill right now would be something of the 372

July 20·, _979 Tape lS J ?!<. - 2 Mr. J~mieson: order of Sl,200 or Sl,300 a.s opflosed tP $770 - it would be SlOO or $400 ciiffennc:e. Ttlen the sama ~q is true of qasol.i.Qe at t!a pw~~p. Now ill.l of these thinqs are tied in toqether. And I realize tl!at I am taldnq far mo:~:e time than perhaps ~e rules of the Bouse a.ll.ow, but I do say ~t !lnless the qov~t shows some spine at the ellli of this p.roc:ess ~en it is just simply backinq away and simply sayinq we are I.eavixlq ~e responsibility to some group of experts ami there is nothin!J we can do about it. 373

July 20,1979 Tape )lo. 154 AH-l PETinONS MR. SPE~: (Simms) Hon. Mini:Ste~ of :-tines and tnerqy. !'!R. BARRY: I beq leave to present a petition on behalf of CCJnstituents in the area of Brophy Place and Kelly Street here in St. John's. They have siqned a petition to try and get scme kind of a playground in their area for their children to play in in order to keep the children off the street3. There are close to 160 children in the small area there. There are town houses there so there is a heavier CCJncentration of people than normal.

The only plac:e for the children to play at the present tiMe is in the streets and already there have been a nwnber of children knocked down by automobiles. So the families there are very seriously concerned and it appears ,in the opinion of the petitioners,that when these town houses were constructed and when cuildinqs generally were constructed in the area 1 residences, no thouqht was given to the provision of playgrounds for the children to keep them safe and off the street. So I would aslc leave , Mr. Speaker, to have this petition tabled and referred to the eommittee to which it relates .

Pres~ly, the DepaJ;1:ml!nt of Municipal Affairs can bring it to the attention of City council as I myself intend to be doing. Ptt:EN'l'ING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES l!IR. SP'EAl<ER: Finance. ~R. COLLINS: to table two s-pecial warrants. t'IR. ROBERTS : DR. COLLINS: 3?4 Han. Minister of Mr. Speaker, I have Is that illl? Right.

Ju~y 20.1979 1'ape )lo • 154 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. Sl'EAJCE:R: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.. J~SOih Mr. Speaker, I nave a question for the hOSL the Premier. It is by Wfl'1 of s~ c:l&rlfication. In the wake of the B1ldcjet yesterday, anc! the "r!;lrone Speech of 11 few days earli .er,,thare are frlllquent raferenees to a. five year plan. I alii asJdn9 the non. the Prem;.er at the IIIOIIII!At whether t;h.is particular five year · plan is the one which is in the Budqet of 1978 and whether or not, inc!eec!.t:he elementS that are in the so-cal.l.ed blueprint haw nt7tl been aQ.adQned 375

July 20. l.\li9 Tape 1.5.5 EC - l ."!R. JAMIESON: and the governmen~ is beginning not only from a. new date, wnich. I would like to a.sk a. supplementary about, bu~ also wnether, in fac~, the five year plan is ~he one reflected in the 1978 Budget? !-IR.. SPEJU<ER: (Simms) The hen. the ?remier. ?~IER ?EC::<FORII: Mr. Speaker, the government is examining all the policies a.nd programmes, examining ~'l.e financial situation of the ?rovince today a.nd wnat it ·..-ill be over the next five years.

We are assessing a.nd examining, we are viewing all social a.nd cultural. programmes, all economic programmes a.nd will be preparing a.nd releasing a. five year plan on all fronts within the next few mnths. The blueprint for development that was contained in the Budget of last year a.nd the information in that blueprint, some of the ideas in that blueprint are being viewed.

But the five year plan will be, I be.Lieve, mre all-encompassing than the bl1.1eprin't for development was, but the elements in that plan are being examined a.nd looked at, that this five · year plan is not necessarily the blueprint ·for developmen~. but so- of ti'le components that are in the blueprint for development or ideas a.nd concepts for developments that are contained in it no doubt would have to be a. pan of any five year plan. aut we are not limited to wnat i.a in the bl1.1eprint for development.

It is a. full reassessment by a. new government on the plans a.nd programmes - financial, social, cultural and economic-for the next five years, which. is the no:tmal life of a. govexnment. MR. SPEAI<ER: MR. JAMIESON: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, the question is, I would consider, a.n important one u to timing.

And may I ask the han. the »remier if the 40,000 jobs referred to in the Speech from the Throne are now, in fact, to c:om. a.t the end of t:his n- five year cycle to wh.ich ·he has referred or wnet.'ler or not, a.s ~'1• blueprint of last year indicated, ~'lose new 40,000 jobs would, in fact, be in place by the end of 1982? I think the ;'lon. the ?remier a.nd members will appreciate tne significance of this because, of co=se, wnat we are saying in the bl1.1eprint at least 376

J"uJ.y £0. 19 79 Tape 155 ::c- 2 ~ • . JAMI~N: show, is that if the jobs ue not 4 p,l.ac:a by 1982 then we will have a ra.ta of \lllUIPloy!IIBAt in ~ewfound,lilllc! cal.cul.ateci at close tD 20 ~r ceu-e. So wnat I would like to aalc the hem. the Premier is whet:ber or oot we now an lQQkin~ a'C a. five year plali for 40, 000 j·oba endin~ five years boa whenever they ue ready to star"C - pns~ly the enci ot. ttl.is year - or wbather the 40,000 jobs .an~ still. .in place for 1982? ... 376 A

.J<lly 201 1979 :Ltt. Si'E.ME!l.: (Simms) ?~IER PEC."<FORO: Tape No. lSo so - l The hen. the Premier. :-u:. Speaker, you ~now, this government i:~ developing a five-year plan frpm new. fle are oot committed in any way :;a what 1.:.1e o~ueprint for development had to say; that was a ddvelopment of goals and objectives and plan tnat was devalop41d 'Qy a previgus aciministration. This admiAistration intends to develgp its own plans and i?rogrammes and its own development plan fgr a five year peri~ we are oot coiiiiiU.tted tg that. ;;e are reassessing the whole questign of development in our Province.

On t.i:la whole question of unemployment, of course, .,..e are ~o~ell aware of the problems inherent in loaltinq at a developmental. strateqy to try to reduce tna \ll1811lployment rata. Tha aconcmy has dane very w.J.l,as the Budgat Speech point41d out yesterday 1 in tila last year.

We have to increasa t."la.t. ay way of tryinq to fill in the gap until. a i?lan is developed. 1 we have taken a number of interim .neasures 1 which were announced during the electio11. campaiqn and. which have been confir.lled in t:h.e audqet Speech, dealing wi ::h housing construction and. tile nousinq plan and other suCil development as an interim measure taward.a creating jo.bs. aut ::he long t:a= thing i.s what we ara cgre interestad in because we are looUng at pe.rmanen::e in tile la.bour forca rather tnan one or two year devalopmant plans which can only 'Qe ::he kind of t."linq you can do in a housing prcqramme. :lR. u.

JA:~u:soN: .~. SPEAlCER: the Opposition. •·IR. 0. J}..'UESON : Supplementary 1 Mr. Spe..Xer. Supplamentary, the hon. Leader of :-u:. Speaker 1 I do net think anyone can argue witil tha obvio<ls desirability of having long term as opposed to snort term employment. ;iy point, however 1 is one wilic."l I suqgest. the hen. the Premier has net addressed. h.illlself to. It seemed to me tnat what he was indeed doing was repudiatinq ~at he describes as a fc=er administration of which many opposite members were part of 377

.J:.1~y 20, 1979 Tape :1o. 156 SD - 2 "·!.~. D. Jl\lUESON; incl:.1aing himself. Now it is a very simple question; I '"aula be perfectly happy to see it presentee statistically if that is aesirable. The fact i:;; that in the auaqet of last year it was saici there woula l:le 40,000 new jol:ls createa by the ye;u: 1992 and inclw:ieci in tnat ' ~e jobs, for example, in L.Wrador ayciro this Autumn, there are jobs in various other projects, it anticipates certain other thinqs coming on stream. In ot.'ler woras, it was, as I said. at t.'le time, "' ·:er:y thoughtful document. New, wat I am asking the hon.

Premier is not whether there will be in-between measures, we all hope t.'lere ""ill be 1 and that the unemployment rat,e will improve. Sut so far as ' I ha.va been able to sea new the 40 , 000 jobs we are speaking of, the objective that is l:leinq slated, has new been 100veci down the line three years. In other worcis, we ue talkinq, at the very euliest ,1984 or 1995. New, that is a quite simple question 1I :ouggest,and it i.s really quite important that we knew it not in any sense other than to '-now now legitimate anci appropriate planninq i.s qoinq to be ar.d. so that the public: of Newfoundland can 378

July 20, 1979 Tape No. 157 ~w - 1 ~R. D • Jr.MIESON : have some awareness of just exactly what their job expectations are going to be over either the next two or three years,w:-.ic!-1 are left in the blueprint, or the five year period. ~R. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : ~ hon. the Premier. E'RF.Ml:ER I?ECKP'ORD: Well, Mr. Speaker, ~~e Leader of the Opposition sort of hints as if ~~e government is not coming clean on what our proposal is. Now if the Leader of ~~e Opposition wants to remain debating the blueprint for development, which was a developmental plan developed hv the government o! _. last year 1 so be it.

I am more interested in concerning myself '"ith our announced intention to prepare and release a development plan of this E'rovince over the next five years starting from now. So, therefore 1 I think it is quite obvious what five year plan I am t:alking about. 11..1\l HON. MEMBER: What five year plan are you talking about? PREMIER PEC!<FORD: It . is a five· year plan that is being developed right now.

As it relates to ~~e Leader of ~,e Oppposition's comments on interim initiatives for job opportunities and that he hopes that something is done along those lines, just let me remind the Leader of the Opposition that yesterday we did take steps to do just ~~at. It is not a ho~e,as t:he Leader of the Opposition puts it. it is a fact; it became a fact as of yesterday.

May I also remind the Leader of the Opposition that the une~loyment rate in the Province has gone down by 2 per cent in ~~e last month 1 and that the number of jobs created over the last few months has been rather substantial compared with other time frames in the last ten years and that we will make the !?eople of Newfoundland aware of our plans and programmes because we intend to table and t:o publish this five year plan do=ent. 1-!R. T. LUSH: A supplementary, ~z. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Final supp2ementary, hon. member for Terra '!ova. !·!R. T.

LCSH: The Premier has indicated it seems as though from his answers t:hat the five year period starts as of now, as 379

July 20, 1979 '!'ape No . 157 ~., - 2 ~R. T. LUSH: of ~~is current year wnich means, of course, that we are going to be into the 1985's before the creation of these 40,000 jobs become a reality. My question to the Premier is thae up to ~"'is point in time <:an the Pre.'llier indicate as to wnat degree of this objective was created from the blueprin~ for development in terms of ~~e 40,000 jobs?

In ot~er words, everything was structured from 1978 to 1982 ir. terms of the number of jobs ~~at ~~s going to be created as a result of the bluepri~t ~!ow can the ?reillier indicate as to how many jobs had been creaeed up until this time of the blueprint for development or whether that was scrapped some time hack? MR. SPEAJCER(SJ:MMS): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PEC!CFOlUl: If I understand the hon. member's question,! think that was answered in the Budget Speech of yesterday when the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) indicated in his speech the number of new positions and new jobs that were created and,may I add 1 outside the public sector in the past twelve months which were some­ where in the neighbourhood of 380

July 20, 1979 Tape 158 !'K - l Premier Peckford: 8,000 the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) said yesterday. So I think that specifically answers the hon. me~r's question. And I would ask him to address himself to that speech because besides that very ~rtant statistic there are many others which I think bear are very sal.ient t:c l:lle kinds of questions that the mel!lber seems that he thinks he should ask at this time. MR. SPEAKER (MR. SIMMS) : The hon . member for LaEoile. MR.

NEARY: I have a couple of questions in connection with the reference in the Budget Speech yesterday in connection with the public service 1 but I first of all want to deal with Mr. Bob Cole's contract. What is the position now on Mr. Bob Cole, the Chairman of the Action Group,who had a very generous contract with this government involving somewhere between a half a million and three-quarters of a million dollars? What is the position of Mr. Cole? Is the government going to negotiate their way out of that contract, buy their way out of it, or will Mr. Cole be appointed a deputy minister?

Just what is the position in connection with Mr. Cole's contract? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Number one, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Cole's contract was not signed with this government, it ·~s signed with ~he previous government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. ROBERTS: PREMIER I?ECXFORD: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! You concurred on thst. That is number one. Oh, o.h! Order, please~ Order! NUmber two is that I have, Mr. Speaker, contacted Mr .

Cole and indicated to him that the Action Group would be disbanded and that I would be talking to him over the next few days about his position and his contract. And until I speak to 381.

July 20, 1979 Tape 158 PK - 2 Premier ~eckford: Mr. Cole again in ~~e next few days I would not care to comment on further on it. I am going to pursue the matter with Mr. Cole and decide then in due course what his role, if any, will be. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER {SIMMS) : MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. member for taEoile. Do I understand from the hen. gentleman then that Mr. Cole's services with the government could possibly be terminated?

The Premier obviously has some plan in the back of his mind, and that plan is going to probably involve a substantial outlay of money from the Public Treasury if the hon. gentleman is going to terminate Mr. Cole's contract, if that is what he has in mindror is he going to be placed in a senior position with the new administration? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Premier. PREMIER PEO<FORD: I thank, Mr. Speaker, the hen. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for his terminology. I indicated to the hen. member in my previous answer that the whole question of Mr.

Cole's contract and employment with the government is being reviewed and until it has been reviewed and until I have spoken to Mr. Cole and consulted with Cabinet I would not care to further comment on it because I think it would be premature. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: LaPoile . lo!R. NEARY: was my interpreta~ion A supplementary question then, Mr. Speaker. One final supplementary, the hen. member for Mr . Speaker, did I understand correctly, and it 382

July 20,1979 Tape No. 159 !1R. NEARY: of the reference to the Public Service yesterday in the Budget Speech,although the hon. ~inister o~ Finance did not say it specifically, that a freeze has been placed on hiring already in the Public Service? And if that is so 1 then what atlout the jobs that have been 4dvertised on the bulletin boards and in the n-spapers and the people who have applied for these jobs and have put in their notice to their ~resent employ~r and are in the process of being appointed to jobs in the Public Service? What will happen to these applicants?

Will they now have to go back to their employer and say, "I am sorry but I was just right on the hitch. I almost got ~inted to a Public Service job but I a111 told now there is a freeze on? " First of all, what I a111 asking the hen. gentleman to confirm is whether ~r not in actual fact there is a freeze on hiring in the Public Service and what will happen to all the jobs that beeR been bulletined on the bulletin boards,aavertised in the new~apers, people haV& applied and been accepted for these jobs 7 what is the position on that right now? MR. SPEAXER: (Si.DIIIIsl The hon. the Prelllier.

PREMIER PECXFORO: Mr. speaker, there is a freeze on hirinqs in the Public Service, number one.

Number two, any person who has been accepted for a position in the Public Service and has been so notified by the Public Service Commission or bv the relevant departments , that will be kept. rn o~~er words, if some departlllent in the Public Service Co'!!l:tizsion had gone throuqft the interview process and one of the candidates were cicked out, if you will, to be the sui table candidate and that candidate was so notified that they now have that job, that will be honoured obviously. il.nythinq less than that wou.Ld be totally wrong.

So that will be covered and anybody .,..ho has been confinned that they have a job, that job will remain. But t.'lere is a freeze and anybody who has been offered a job, a candidate approved, of course they still have that job. Thirdly 1 there is an appeal procedure 383

July 20 , 1979 Tape No. 159 AH-2 ?!<n!I:::R ?EO(FORD: throuqh the departments as it relates to the freeze that any minister in any department who is ~esponsible for that department or aqency, who feels that s0111e of the positions in that department which had been r~ested through Treasury Board, feelsthat these positions are vital far the continued administration and efficiency of that department or aqency can appeal the decision to the Treasury Board in Cabinet. :"!R. J'.li.MIESON: MR. SPEAlCER: (Simms) Leader of the Opposition. MR. JAMIESDJ: A supplementary. A supplementary. The hoh. Mr.

Speaker, once aqain I would be quite oontent to have this in written fo~ or something of t.'tat nature. It may be possible for the hon. t.'te Premier to answer in this way: Is the freeze designed to be precisely what that ward suqqests,namely, a freeze, or does it anticipate that the total numbers in the Public Service as a result will reduce throuqh attrition, retirement, death or whatever? In other words, are we talking h.er.e about simply sayinq there are certain numbers and they will be maintained or is the objective to reduce the total? 1·1R. SPEAXEl!: P:!!EMIER PECKFORO: The hon. the Premier .

I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question because it is a very important one and we are in the process of reviewinq that. What our tarc;ets will be and what our, if you will, philosophy will be as it relates to the Public Service, it has to obviously just, by the way, off the top of my head, be more than just one based on numbers. It 111Ust be based on work and quality of work and the changes between social prt:~qraaunes and econ0111ic ;?roqrll!llllles and so on.

So it is rather complex and just cannot be referred to ''Y numbers because that woc.l.d not be a very impersonal and objective way of tryinq to deal with makinq a Public Service work. So that is being reviewed and we have net really - I fully reviewed it to the extent that Wf! can say what cur lonq-te:nr view will bf! as it relates to the Public Service and hirings . It is a 384

July 20,1979 Tape No. 159 AH-3 !'RE~IER !'EC!I:FORD: freeze right now. The extent of the freeze and the ?hilosophy behind it will become clear in the next few ..,eeks, once Cabinet has had. a chance to go t:..'trouqh it all. We have a report new from the Minister-of Public Works (Mr.~ounq), who is responsible for the Public Service COIIIIII.ission1 on all the positions and so on. We are getting- reviews done of all t!1e departments so that we will be able to get a full handle on it.

But you cannot, until you also know what your programmes are going to be over the next couple of years,because the programmes are dependent upon people and sometilltes there will be addition jobs and so on1 so it is far more complex. But I appreciate t.'le Leader of the opposition's ques1:ion <md. '"ill t%y and have a full scale ~licy as it relates ~o Public Service, freeze or unfreeze, over the next number of weeks. !·!R. SPVU<ER: (Simms) The hon. member for t.'le Strait of Belle Isle, then the hon. member for Trinity-Bay de llerde. MR. ROBERTS: l'.r. Speaker, thank you.

A question for the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimerl. The minister will agree that the law flf this Province i.s such that the government of the Province cannot be bound for a period of more than one year except by expressed statutory authorization of this legislature. 385

July 20, 1979 Tape No. 160 NM - l :-!R. ROBERTS: and I wonder if :he minister could tell us of the authorization that the previous administration - there is only one government in this ~rovince; there are different administrations - but the previous administrat i on had,the legislative authorization the previous · administration had for entering into the contract with the director of this special Action Groug? :1R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. O'l"I'ENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I think what the hen. member is asking is a legal opinion. MR. ROBERTS: 1·!R. OTTENHEIMER: lm. ROBERTS: No, No, I am not.

Mr. Speaker, it is - Perhaps I did not hear correctly. - unlawful of me to ask for a legal opinion of the minister. I have no right to ask that . Re certainly has the ability to give one but I have no right to ask him. I am asking if he could t~ll the Rouse of the legislative authorization for entering into the contract. That is a statement of fact, not a matter of opinion. MR. SPEAKE.~: The hen. Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of specific legislative authorization.

There are a number of contractual employees, contractual people on a contractual basis,performing various public services and in many of the instances there is no specific statutory authorization. I think that the authority is an inherent one and certainly if each time a person were taken on a contractual bc.sis to perform some public service for a department or for a minister or for whomever,then there would be many, many specific enactments. ~-!R. ROBERTS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: That is the whole point of the rule. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. A supplementary .

Could ~~e minister undertake at some point to make a statement of the administration's policy to the Rouse on this matter because he has put his finger on it? These contracts, I would suggest to him , are not valid other than on a year to year basis unless they are specifically authorized by this Legislature. 386

July :w, 1979 Tape No . 160 NM - 2 ~!R. NEARY: That is right. I wish to reply to the non. gentleman's question. !1..~ . SPEAKER (Silllllls) : The hen. Minister of Justice. MR. OT'l'Em!EIMER: It was whether I would at some time make a statement - MR. ROBERTS: Yes. MR. O'l'TENHEIMER: - with respect to policy on contractual engagements in the Public Service. I certainly agree that t:.hat is an area in \~Ch there should be a consistent ?Qlicy 1 and if there is not one there should be one,and obviously it would not be something that tomorrow or even next week I would be in a position to do. MR. ROBERTS : MR.

O'l"l'ENHEIMER: be done as time permits. MR. SPEAKER: MR. F. ROWE: No, no, maybe ten days down c.'le road. I agree that it is important and it will The hen. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the :-linister of Fisheries arising out of the ministerial statement from the Premier but in the absence of the Minister of Fisheries probably the Premier could answer the question .

The Premier made a ministerial statement ~'lis morning regarding the actions the government plans to take with respect to trying to avert the strike by the Newfoundland Fishermen Food and _Allied Workers Union which would adversely affect the inshore fishefies in particular this year, and the l?remier might have noticed that we spoke more or less in support of that particular action because we did not want, obviously, to jeopardize any actions the government might take in averting that particular strike. But what I would like to do is ask .. the hon.

Minister of Fisheries now if he is listening outside 1 or the Premie~ is what exactly has the Fishing Industry Advisory Board been doing over the last few years and what actions have they taken or what have they been involved -in with respect to this particular problem? With the Fishing Industry Advisory Board I would have assumed that they 387

J'uly 20, 1979 Tape No. 160 NM - 3 :-IR. F. !'!.OWE: would have been deeply involved in this over the last few months, if not years, anticipating that this thing could happen. What is the status of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board and what have they been doing over the last few months and in particular with respect to this possible strike? :.IR. SPEAKER (.Simms l : ~. 'II. CARTER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. The Advisory Board now has a new Chai~n. Mr. Frank Do~linger, the former Assistant Deputy Minister of Fisheries. It is being restructured.

They have been working with the industry and the union compiling data, g·etting thoughts together on prices and this sort of thing, pricing systems. The Advisory Board has been authorized by Cabinet to increase its staff,which they are now doing. They are advertising for certain expertise in certain fields to work with the Board. MR. NEARY: .'1R. SPEAKER: :.IR. ti. QRTER: There is a freeze on. Order, please! The Advisory Board will be playing a major role, !tt.

Speaker, in the matter of setting prices and assisting both sectors, both the industry and the union, in arriving at what we hope will be fair prices for our fishermen. MR. 'E'. ROWE: MR. SP~: Trinity-Bay de verde. MR. F. ROWE: A supplementary. A supplementary, the hon. member for The hon. Minister of Fisheries, Sir, everything is past and future tense here. They will be doing this and they will be doing that. The minister indicated that the Fishing Industry 388

.JW.y 20, 1979 Tape 161 EC - 1 MR. :. ~WE: ~dvisory Board is under new chairmanship and is beinq restructured, hirinq on new staff in spite of the freeze, and has indicated that they are real.ly not an advisory board at this ParticuJ.ar point but a collection agency for information on which they hope eo taka action in the future. What I am still tryinq to ask the Minister of E"i.sheries (Mr. w. carter) is. lolhat has );)een the involvement ot the E'ishinq Indwst--y Advisory Board over the past few 1110nths as it relates to the poss~ility of this fishermen's strike? MR. SPEAXER: (Silllms) MR. W.

CARTER: The hen. the Minister of E"isharies. The hon.llelllber would not expect !111!1 in the few minutes tllat :i: bo1.ve a~ rny disposal to reply to his question, to give a complete run-down of the activities of the Advisory Board. MR. F. RlWE: No, I did not ask for tha~. MR. W. CARTER: But I can say this to him that the Advisory Board has bean ·rery acti va.

For exaJIIPle, a strike with respect to the cr~ fishery was averted by virtue of action taken 'ay the A<ivisory BoardJ a poss~la dispute, for example, in tl1e ;aatter of herring prices; cex+.ainly I can safely qiva the Advisory Board credit for having a.voidad soma very sariows problema there. It is constantly, Mr. Speaker, 1110ni torinq the lll&rkata both in Europe and the u.S. , supplyi.nq information to the inciustry, ta the union to anaiJle tilem t:.o a.rriva at, like I say, what we hope will be fair prices to the fisheC~~an.

The Advisory Board has been very active and if t:.lle hon. 1118111ber is interested in findi.nq out what it is doing I would be very happy for him to meat with the chairman of that board and let the chairman give him a thorouqh briefing on wha.t it is doing and what it hopes to do in future. SOME F.ON • MEMBE:RS: Hear, hear! MR. F. RlWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han. the member for Trinity - 3ay de Verda. MR. F. RlWE: I suppose, Mr. Speaker , a third ti.m11 I lllight be lucky. The E'remier has indicated the activities of the 389

.1\.l.ly 20, lSi9 Tape 161 E:C - 2 :1R. E'. :!OWE: :-tiniseer of Manpower (Mr. Di.nn) and t..'le :iinister of Fisheries (Mr. w. Carter) and the possible a.ctivil:y of various levels of gove%tlllll!nt and a special coll'lllli.ttee. Now I repeat ~he question to the Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Speaker; What has oeen t..'le involvement of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board in the last few months with respect to this particular strike that i! it comes about will be probably one of the qreatast disasters to hit this P:ovince t::llis year or any o'Cer year?

What has been the involvement of the Fishing Industry Advisory Board with respect to eryinq to settle or stave off this potential fishermen's strike? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. W. CARTER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. The l:lon. member has not understood. what I am saying, that the Advisory Board has been very active in this dispute. In fact, most of the information that has been used by l:lle Department of Manpower, for example, was information that was compiled under l:lle leadership of l:lle Advisory Board. And that is l:lle role of that board.

In fact, it is unique in North America, that kind of an advisory board. And ce::tainly rrrt hope is that once the board is functioning, as it will be within a very short tillll! now under the n- ch&iJ:IIIAil8hl.p and the new restructuring, that it will certainly have the effect maybe of avoiding strikes, certainly providing t..'le necessary information to enable both parties, the privata sector and the union, to arrive at what we hope will be fair prices. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville followed by ~ hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. STAGG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is somewhat unusual for a member on tl1is side to be <~osJcinq questions. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oil! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STAGG: I must say t..'lat the hon. members on the other side are far more experienced in asking questions than I am. I have only had experience on the government side. My question is to the hon. the Minister of Transportation and Coll1lllll11ications. I wonder if the minister would 390

July 20. l979 .Tape 161 EC - 3 MR. STAGG: indicaee whae aceion his depar~ne has taken with regard to the bridge on the Eiansen liighway near Stephenville, which was waahed out a couple of days ago in a storm therel' This bridge was arec~d by the United States .Ur Force in the 1950s and threaeened to be floodad away on April 6, 1973 when Labrador r.inerboard was opened. Soma of you qentl.emen may have bean there at the time. And also in doing so, I wonder if the minister would undertake to contact the Minister of Lands and Forests (Mr.

Morgan) and :-equest him to have a look at the upstream coursing of Blancbe Brook which was appar~tly denuded by Labrador r.ine~oard' s woods operations and leads to considerable runoff. SOME !iON. MEMBEllS: MR. SPEAKER: (Simms) MR. STAGG: Sit dawn! Sit down! OrciaJ:, please! So I wonder if the minister would indicate what action he has taken and if he would ~mdertake to contact his colleague. And as far as my sitting down is conce:rned, I consider it to be - MR. SPEAKER: MR. STAGG: worthwhile. SOME liON. MEMBJ::RS: MR. SPEAKER: and Communications. MR.

BRE'!"l': Orcier i please! - a IIIO&t legitimate C{uestion and Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, that is referred to, I think, as Blazlcta Brook Bridge, you know, right in the town of Stephenville. It occurred last Wednesday. There was a flash flood and the pier went in the 1110rning, I think, and we were forced to close the bridge. Eventually ~ wh.ole structura collapsed. 391.

July :::!0, 1979 Tape 'TO. 162 OW l ~.E. ROBERl'S: Did he read~ the question exactly as it '"as written. ~. SPEAKER ( SIM.'1S) : Order, please! ~. c. BRETT: I did not see the non. ~~~ember before ! came to the House for your info:rmation. I was not aware of the question being asked either. ~R. E. ROBERTS: 1-':!l.. SPEAKER: ~. C. B'RETT: I accapt that. Order, please! But, anyway we were forced to close the bridge and re-route the traffic.

I tall the non. llloUiber that we have ordered a Bailey bridge tl·tat should be in place within t;l«< weeks possibly and it will probably take t...o or three months before we can actually design and start constructing something new. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is ric;ht; the cause of it was some work that was done by Lil..brador linerboard 1and I w~ll certainly have the hen. Minister of Lands and FOrests (Mr. Mcrgan) look into it. SOME HON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! I'.R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. G. n.IGHT: .'!r . Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Barry) and I wonder if he will be orepared to be specific. In the Budaet yesterday it referred to Hydro's intention-or the ?ower Distribution ~istlnct intention of taking certain communities off diesel and having them tied into the ~vdro grid. And $2 million will be spent in the first phase. Would the minister te specific and indicate to the House the towns that will be involved in the first phase? l-!..n.. SPE1.1CER: MR. Bli.RRY: The hon. Minister of Mir.es and ~nerqy. ~r. Speaker, I cannot right now off ~he top of my head but I will be happy to seek the information for the hon. member.

It would be brouqht out in the Estimates in any event. :-nt. G. :"LIGHT : A supplementary, ~tr. Speaker. 392

Jul y 20, 197'." Tape ~o. lE;2 ~R. SPEAKER (SI~.S) : A supplementary, hon. member for Windsor - Buc:hans. ~R. G. :LIGHT: The rellson I raised the question to the tnU!istar in particular was in 1978's Throne Speech ~he col!llllunity of ~Ullertown in my district was cesignated as beinq a town where this indeed would happen, that Hydro intended to ~a off a diesel cc=U.tmant that was mad~ in the Throne Speech that Millertown would come off the diesel facility it is on and be tied into the llydro grid. Notl1ing happened!

That did not happen, although it was · a condition of the Throne Speech and I want to determine whether or not MillertGwn will retain that particular status because it is probably one of the tcwns in Newfoundland most deserving and most needy of that particular service. MR. SPEAXER: Hon • mirU.ster. MR. L. BAR!r!: !1%'.

Speaker, this will be an ongoing process, I cannot say whether or not Millertown has been included for this year but I think it is S2 million allocated out of a $10 million programl!le 1 sa avery site ·.mere it is feuible to tie into the provincial grid we hope to see tied in as quickly as possible because it will mean money saved for the Province. ~R. SPEAKER: MP .• NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: !.a.E'Oile. :~!!.. S • NEARY : Order , please! The time for Oral Questions has 2xpired . 000 A point of order, Mr. speaker. On a point of order, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, I want to raise th~ matter that was brouqht up by the ~inister of Mines and Energy (Mr . Barry) ·· the Other day . The hon. gentleman raised a point of personal privil~~e in the House and said he did not want to sit on his rights and the hon. gentleman now has not taken advantage , Sir, of following throuc:h, and I presume he has seen lfansard by now 1 has not sean fit to 393

July 20, 1979 '!'ape No. 162 DW - :J. :1R. S. NEARY: follow through with his point of privilege. Is the hon. gentleman now letting the matter rest? Is it now a d~ad issue? MR. BARRY: a 90int of order? !1R. S. NEARY: Are you askinq a. question or raising It is a. point of order, Sir, because the hon. qentleman interrupted the House the other day. It was so important to raise a. point of privilec;e. Order, please! In ri!'f opinion ·c .. l1is is not a. valid point of order, it is simply a. difference of opinion between twa hon. members. :.ut. MARSHALL: ~ !R. SPEAKER: ORDERS 01" THE DAY Order 3, Sill NO. 3.

Order 3. ~tion , second readinc;- of a. bill , "ll.n Act TO Amend ~e Adoption Of Children Act, 1972." Bill :-:~o. 3. ~'Ill. SPEAKER: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. T. HICKEY: The hon. Minister of Social Services. Hear, hear! This amendment, Mr. Speaker, would eliminate what could be a serious situation. It is not at the moment but it could turn out to be a serious situation if not corrected. Basically - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! If I might be permitted hon • .ninister I am having difficulty in hearing thinqs that are being said and I would request that the member speaking be heard in silence. The hen. minister. HR.

T • HICKEY : Thank you Your Honour. The present legislation requires that consent for children to be adopted be taken only 394

July 20, 1979 Tape 163 PI< - 1 ~lr. Hickev: after seven days after birth. That is t.~e case with the amended legislation as it stands on the books right now. There happens to be 1 ho~er,a nugber of casas where the consent for adoption was taken prior to bir+-h, which was quite normal under the old legislation or in certain instances a few days after birth, but before the seventh day occurred. And technically and leqally, of course, as the Statute stands right now,this is incorrect. I suppose, it could be classed as illegal as such. There obviously was a breakdown in communication.

Indeed, in a couple of instances I belie~ an adoption order was made by SOllie magistrates, a couple of magistrates. And whilst there was no problem at the time, Mr. Speaker, •.o~e want to correct the situation to make those consents legal to rBIIIDve the possibility of any problem arising in the future • ... This is basically it. This illlllmdmant would correa this situation as the bill would indic<Lte. It is vary specific. Ane basically that is it. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I would think there are two points which should be made and · both of them will be ver], very brief. First of all, as the minister says, and my understanding of the present Adoption Act is that there is a s•ven dily requi.remant. I think that is a very wise requirement to allow the mother of a child at least a seven day period in which she may decide.

And this bill does not directly deal with that but it does deal with a situation which,as I understand the minister, could conceivably arise where an order that was given during a specific period between June 1978 and the lst. of September l979,could conceivably at some point be challenged down the road. Obviously,that is a situation which, you know, should not be tolerated, and if there was, as apparently there h.as been, a defect in a Statute that was originally drafted and passed by the House, then we should certainly move to correct it. 395

July 20, 1979 Tape 163 PK - 2 :1%'. Roberts: I should add to that, Sir, that we have been consulted by hen. and learned friend, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), and for our part we are willing to allow this bill to proceed through all of its stages this morning, if that is the wish of the aouse, so that when Mis Honour attends, I understand he may be before we adjourn this morning, if the bill has been adopted ais Honour could be asked whether he ·~uld assent to it. I assume if he is asked he will assent to it, if not, we will have an awfully interesting situation indeed. MR.

SPEAKER (SIMMS): The hen. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I just want to,before the hon. gentleman winds up second reading, I wonder if it would be in order. Sir, to ask the hon. gentleman what the situation is now concerning the supply and demand of children available for adoption in the Province?

I understand that the only children who are available for adoption now are the older children, that the babies are taken immediately because· · there is quite a demand on the part of adoptive parents who want to adopt babies more than the older children. now regarding the adoption programme? l'lhat is th~ situation :-m.. SPEAKER: debate. If the hen. minister speaks now he closes the MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I obviously do not have figures at the moment, but I will be glad to get them for the hon. member.

I can tall him that, and he is obviously familiar as a former minister, there was quite a few years ago a surplus, and because of the programme put in place to increase the number of adoptions, indeed to promote adoptions in the Province, that situation was corrected and the number is greatly reduced. There was a time when there was a scarcity of children,I suppose could be said,for adoption.

But over the past number of years strangely enough,when one would have normally expected the numbers to continue in small numbers in terms of children availabla, the numbers have increased and presently there are quite a few adoptions being processed within the Province. Few are being 396

July ]0 , 1979 Tape 163 ?!< - 3 Mr. Hickey: processed for parents or prospective adopted. parents from outside the :>rovince, and indeed outside of the country. we have been involved in int•:mational adoptions to a eartain deqree. But I will be pleased to get that information in a more detailed way, providinq the nUIIIbers that are currently available and indeed the numbers of children wic:h have been adopted. within anq outside of the :>rovince for the past number of years. I thank my c::olleaques o.n the o.tber side for a<Jreeinq to see t;his pill passed, and r have 11lUCh pleasure in moving ~orui readinq. 397

July 20,1979 Tape ~lo. 164 AH-l On motion, a bill, "An .'\ct To J1.111end '!'he Adoption Of Children Act, 1972." read a second tilne, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole F.ouse ~ow,by leave. (Bill No. 3) ~R. SPEAICER: is that I leave the Chair. Order, please! The motion On motion that the House resolve intself into a Committee of the Whole House, Mr. Speaker, left the Chair. COMMIT'!'EE OP THE WHOLE MR.. CHAtllMAN• (Butt) Ordar, please! MR. MARSHALL: Order J. (Bill No.Jl A bill, "An Act To Amend The Adoption Of Children Act, 1972." (Bill Ito. 3) Motion that the Committee r~port having passed Sill No.

J without amendment, carried. !'!lt. MAPSHALL I move that the Ccumittee rise, report progress and ask laave to sit again. On motion that the CoDIIIIittee rise, report proqress and ask leave to sit aqain, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: (Si=ms) MR. CH.li.I:RMAN: (Butt) Th'll! hen. Chaizman. Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred, have directed me to report Bill No. J without a~~~endments and ask leave to sit again. MR.

SPEAKER: The Chai.rman of the Co11111i ttee of the Whole reports that it hu COftSiderlid the matters to it referred and has directed hiln to report Bill No. J without a111endlllent. On motion report received and adopted Bill No. J, ordered read a third time now by leave. 398

July 20,1979 Tape Mo. 164 AH-2 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend 'nle Adoption Of Children Act, 1972," read a third time, ordered ~assed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No.3) MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAXElt: (Simms) Council. MR. MARSHALL: Motion 4. Motion 4. The hen. President of the Mr.

S941aker, it is with great pleasure that I rise to move reforms, alterations in the way of reforms to the Standinq Orders of this !iouse. 'nlese are reforms that the government has put together and the qovernment feels a.re very siqnificant and will do much to enhance the diqnity and esteem of this Rouse in the eyes of the public. I do not need-before I get into the rules themseln~s and explain them, I do not think I need to labour too much on the need for :~.lterations and chanqes and reforms in the rules th-elves.

The hen. the Preier when he was speakinq on openinq day indicated, I think, quite clearly as to the vi- of the government with respect to the necessity of this and in fact , I think, the Throne Speech indicates as well that there is somewhat of an equation between the econcmic health of an area and of a Province and the health of its political inst:itutions.

And th•re is no doubt about it that anyone who has ever read the Amulree Report and has observed events both before and,I miqht say1 after the restorat:ion of self-qcvernment in this Province 7 there is certainly a need of a chanqe in the political institutions • Now this motion, these rules and these reforms ~at are brouqht before this House, Mr. Speaker, are brouqht forth in a sincere, honest and earnest attempt on the part of government to make the House of Assembly relevant and to enable it to cope with the tasks which are before it.

It is a fact that we talk about the British parliamentary system and we talk about our roots going bacx to over 400 years,but it is also a fact as well that the institution we have, the framework on 399

July 20, 1979 Ta;?B No • 16 5 SD - l :·lR. \i. :1ARSHALL: which '"'a operate, is unable to cope with the future shock of the present days and to a large extent t.'l.e m<iC:.'linary in the Legislature itself is as inacieq~te for the purpose of colmiiWlication in this day allli age of automgbiles a.lld airplanes anli what nave you, as the horse aru1 buggy and can be ccmpa.red to,reallr, the horse aDd buggy days.

Now, the purpose of these rules, as I say, is to restore t.'le i:iOuse of Assembly to its rightful pla.ce or to attempt to restore the House of ASsembly tc its rightful pla.ce of dignity aru1 esteem with the pllQlic. MR. MORGAN: Hear, hear. .:i&. w. ~HALI.: The changes, they represent reforms • As I say J they do nat praSWIIe to be completely all encompassing but they represent reforms that we feel are mast necessary as judged by impartial. observers of the legislative process in t.'l.is Province.

Undoubtedly, there may be others but for the moment we confine ourselves to the most essential that are represented in t.'l.is motion it:self. I should say at the same time thcugh,.'tt.

Speaker, that it is inherent in the policy of this present administration of the recognition of the fact that ti:le Legislature is a growing organism, a growing body and an evo.lvinq body and this government intends to a1a.ke the ::ita.nclinq Orders' Committee - t.'le Committee on the Standing Orders - active during this assem.b.ly and that w-e will be monitoring the changes that come in with a view t:o leaking at them in the future and seeing how they are working ancl seeing whether any further changes may be necessary in the future. But what is before the House new is '"'hat we nonastly beliave,a.s.

I say, to be beneficial changes and we honestly believe that if they are reqa.rdad by all members .;.nd approached ~y .. all members with a. sincere intention to ma.ke l.t wcz:k.1 that it will be very effective and be a. gaint step towards, what we view to be, the restoration of parliamentary democracy in this Province.

JUlj' 20, 1979 Tape No. 165 sn - 2 :·IR. W. :1ARSHALL: Now, it is government's intention to :nake theso changes, Government announced it in the Throne Speech, they are government' s proposals, but I 'NOuld be re!tiss in introducing this lllCtion if I did not paint out that Wlliu- t!:le present legislation in th.is House the govu-nmsnt itsalf can not effect the chanqas i:)eca-..se Wllier the tiOuse of Assei!IQly Act it is required that t:wo-tilirds of the compliment of this House vote in order to effect any changes.

Tne recent election left us with a few seats short of that two-thirds and. we . .,ill, in order to get thase through under t:.'l.e present legislation, need. the co-operation of the Opposition. Now, as a matter <Jf interest and somewhat of an aside, I could indicate tilat there are two ways . it could Q4l brought through with co-operation. First of all, wa have received the co-operation, for which we are extremely grateful? from the Opposition - SOME nON. MEMBERS : :·lR. W. HARSHALL: aear, near. - alltOi it is the way in which the government prefers to be able to daal.

We could., as I say - as a matter of aside, it might be of interest to tnis aouse w learn t:.ha.t in the ten provincial jurisdictions in canada eight of t:.'l.em are amended._, amendments can be effected by a simple majority rule of the House itself. It is only Newfoundland and Nova Scotia which nave two-thirds. The liouse of Commcns nas a majority ruling ~o~hicb. can effect changes and recently, I understand. that Westmin.ister has also made it a majority. But in QliY event, :i.r. Speaker, that is as ida.

The fact of the matter is that ""' nave asked for and we have received - ~o~& · have consulted with the Opposition ~o~ith respect to these rules that have been initiated by the government, and we nave recei~ed, and I want to emphasize, the co-operation of the Opposition. I think it auqurs well for this assembly in the future days and I want to - as ! say, : !o/Ould be very remiss if I did not bring this to tile attention of ~~e House i~self because it is obviously government's intention and desire anu wish that these amendments receive the approbation of all

July :<.o, 1979 Tape No. 165 50 - 3 ::1R,_ \J. MRS HALL: people on both sides of t.'1e aouse. Before ! get again, wnich ! will in a moment, into the rul.es itself, ! want to say, empnasize that they were j?Ut together in a sincere dasi.re to

July 20, 1979 Tape No. 166 NM - l reform the parliamentary institutions. There are aspects in them "'hich limit de.bate but I think shallow and superficial indeed would be an analysis on anybody's part that the pur?Qse of these rules is to limit de.bate in any manner.

That is not the underlying purpose. ':he purpose of these rules is really to extend and protect the rights of all members of this aouseJto give all ~embers of this aouse an opportunity to participate, particularly those people who are styled, which I think is an inappropriate term, as backbenchers 7 I prefer to call them private members, to enable them to speak and get involved in the process, the legislative process and the governmental process in the House, and to prevent certain people,say in the ministry or what have you, or persons on the other side of the aouse from completely monopolizing the proceedings of the House itself and to foster and encourage the participation of everyone.

So I would indicate and I emphasize, that it is not ~~e purpose of these rules to limit debate but really to foster and extend the rights of every member and ~ realize as much as we possibly can, the equality of all members in this House and their equal rights to participate in the deliberation of the affairs of the government itself. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are three major aspects to this motion. There are first of all, as I say, three main thrusts.

Now there are other areas dealt with, other necessary areas but it reforms Private Members' Day, it strengthens the private members themselves by allowing them to 9articipate in deliberiltions with respect to the estimates, a.nd it allows much more participation in the debate itself by everybody,. by making the rules of speaking such that people have to be more concise and direct in addressing themselves to any problems and questions, and also alters somewhat the position that the House, and the way in which the House would deal with petitions which are presented.

July 20, 1979 Tape No. 166 NM - 2 Now I shall then briefly describe the contents of this motion which is before the House. Paragraphs one, two and three I do not think we need to spend any time on to any great degree. tihat this does it amends the Standing Orders of the House to provide that the sitting hours on Friday will be from. ten o'clock to one o'clock, and this really regularizes the practice which has occurred over the past few years.

And the reason why we have that is that it allows members, particularly those members who journey home to their districts on the weekend,a head start on the weekend itself and I think it is a sensible change and,as I say1 it really for=alizes existing procedures. Paragraph fo~ I direct tha House ' s attention now to paragraph four, the motion. And this aminated from a suggestion and discussions which we had with the Opposition and it .changes the - ordinary daily routine of business.

Before when the Speaker came in he would say, "Statements By Ministers" first and then, well as it is here, Presenting Petitions, Reports of Standing Committees, Notices of Motion, and Oral Questions was at the end. Now1 it was felt that the showpiece, really, or one of the showpieces of any legislature has to be the Oral Question period and it was felt that that should be lliOVed U? on the daily routine of business so we have moved that up as second, after Statements of Ministers, oral Questions.

The reason why Oral Questions would not be put first is that first of all Statements By Ministers have to have a priority in the business of the House itself, but secondl~ many times Oral Questions themselves will arise out of a statement that a minister has made at that particular time. Also by ma.kinq this alteration and change it will allow people to ~lan their times a little bit more effectively so that you ~' ill know when the Oral Question period comes on early ~ the day, as early as possible. MR. ROBERTS: MR. MARSHALL: There is a typo by the way there. Is there really?

:uly 20, 1979 !1R. ~S: three-thirty. MR. ~HALL: MR. ROBERTS: one. Mll. MARSHALL: MR. ROBER'!$ t MR. MARSHALL: t"esp.ect to debate. MR. ROBERTS< MR. MII>R5RALL: that up as we get to it then. ~3.pe .llo. 166 NM - 3 It says t~ee, it should say Now I am on the ordinary t"Outine of • Oh, I am sorry. It is i~ the next The next one, yes. The next but one. I am sorry. I am on number five now with Yes. It is in number six. ~ si~. Okay. \fell, we can pick In paragraph five on today's Order !?aper, St::andinq order 49 is revoked.

NOw this relates to Private Members' Day and. it will be - no, not to Private Members' Day, to the tillle of debate in the ~ouse itself and it represents a t"eally significant change. First of all 1 the time limit for speaking of all members will be thirty minutes instead of :fo~-five. We thought this was a qood measure to bring in because one of the major improvements that was made in 1970, one of the best

Jl.lly 20, l9i9 !'ape l67 E:C - l · HR. MARSHALL: ones)I think all members will aqree, was the Lata Show wnere members get five minutes each to question a minister and a minister gets five minutes to respond. we finci that wnan people have to have a shorter period of time they tend to plan out their address a. little bit oore effectively. So it goes from forty-five minutes to thirty minutes except in the cases \"bare Government Orders are being 1110ved.

But the Premier, the Leacl.er of the Opposition, a. lllinister mcving a Government Order or a. lllf!lli)er replying tllereto immediately after such minister, a member ooving a ootion of non­ confidence and. tile minister replyi..llg thereto shall not speaX. for mere tllan sixty minutes. ~ .... wnat we nave here ·ia in effect we have tile exception of the right in tile bands of the Leader of the Opposition and the· Premier - which I will get to in a. 11¥)1118D.t - we have to all intents and purposes removed the aspect of unlimited time.

It was felt that the way the previous rules were.where if anyone ooved a non­ confidenca mction they would get unlimited. time,wu unsatisfa~..ory - Mr. Speaker, was unsatisfactory because it would certainly appa&r tnat members were moving non-confidence motions not because they wished. to express necessarily at that time specifically non-confidence in the government on a particular 2uura, but purely and simply to qat unlimited. tiD!, a.nci we thouqht that really, in effect, tnat would derogate it from the effect of non-confidence motions themselves.

Sixty lllinutes should .be enouqh for any member eo be able to express the reasons for his lack of confidence in the government and sixty minutes shou.ld be quite adequate for anyona to respond and reply to that. So it is thirty minutes or sixty in the case of introducing bills, responding to Sillllll or in non­ confidencP =:tiens. Now· the only instance whera there is unlimited time is where the Leader of the Opposition 1110ves a l!IOtion of non-confidence and the Premier replies tnereto.

It was thought best to preserve this because t.."lis is a right that should not reaJ.ly be interfered with and if it is necessary for a long period of time to explain the 406

JIU.y 20, 1979 Tape 167 EC - 2 reason for-longer than an hour - non-confidence in the governmene thae ie shoiU.d repose, really, in the leader of the parey wno is going to present thae and the riglte to reply should l::la in the leader of the party who naa to respond. Alao, of course, the Um.e a::mseraines do noe apply to the Minister of Finance wllen he gives lli:l Budqae Speech. or the person replyinq illlmediately after. So we feel, then, that these changes in the times, the pezmissions or the period of time wllen one may spealto are beneficial.

I would emphasize aq&.in and say that sh~w and superficial indeed is any malysis which looks to this particular rule and indic:atas that ie is there purely and silllply for the purpose of limitinq time. It is not for that purpose, it is for the purpose of enhancing the examination of JD&ttars in the !:louse of Assembly and giving and extendinq riqnts t:c all !~~embers of tile !:louse , itself. The nexe chanqe, and siqnificant chanqe, that we have, and I think a real impro-iremant, is tile one with reGec:t to Privata Members' O&ys.

Now everyone knows that matters would be set down on the Order Paper at the opaninq of the session and one, and maybe ~:Wo at the IIIQ&e, IIIQtiona would be considered for tile entire session. 'they '~~auld be <iebated on and on and on, -~ by design of the Oppoei tion, sometimes by design of the government. And this really infringed on tile riqnts and trampled really, on tile rights of members 1 I think. And I tll.ink that Private Malllbars' lll)tions should be considered as expeditiously as possil)le and as many as possl.l)le in a session, i tse.l.f.

So consequently, whae we are dainq is we a.ra providing that a Private MemberS IIIQtion shall be considered for not". "":>~ than t:wo si ttinq days, not mora than two Wednesdays. This is the effec:t of the a~~~~~ndment t:c Standinq Order 53 (1) • And at 6:00 P.M. at the close of the second day, the Spealtoer will then put the motion to vote and adept or otherwise the lll)tion. It will then be dispensed with and the next day we will move on to other - MR. ROBE~S: we might just correct the typographical error, Mr. Speaker, that is i n 407

.JuJ.y 20, 1979 Tape .167 :::c - J ~. llCBERrS: (4) of Standinq Order SJ and it says; rtOil Wednesdays the question period shall CODMnce noe later than 3:00 p.m." !o!R. ~; 3:30 that is supposed too be. 'thank you. MJt. ~El¢$: Maybe we caD just aq:z:ae to ca:r:rect it and not have to "''aT about it any~~Dzoe. MR.. MAl!SHALL; Now in t.he private moeions because we ll.ave only t1o10 days , insteac:i of thirty lllinu.tes a lllelliHir IMY speak onl.y twenty lllinutes. Alld that is not for t.he puxpoae a.qain of llmi tinq members speakinq, it

July 20, 1979 Tape 168 !'K - l )1%'. ~rshall : is to ensure that the largest number of members - that one person or two or three or four or five, however many1 are not going to monopolize the proceedings and that every member is going to get an opportunity to speak. The member introducing the motion will get an opportunity to close the debate. ae will get twenty minutes to close the debate.

And if at the end of the second sitting day the motion is not disposed of at 5:40 in the afternoon,the Speaker will interrupt the person who then has the floor, give the floor to the mover of the motion who can close the debate and answer any questions. on Wednesdays,also in order to assure that a full consideration of these private motions will be considered and to prevent government from getting up and using a lot of time, consuming a lot to time in the matter of statements and what have you_.. it is provided that the debate must start by 4:00 each afternoon.

So you are guaranteed that there will be at least four hours of consideration of a private member's motion. The Question Period will start at 3:30. And as the Leader of the Qpposition has indicated, there should be an amendment which we can -it is only a typographical, but we should assure that it is in there. On Nednesdays the '2Uestion Period shall commence not later than 3:30. So you are assured of two things, a half hour Question Period and you are sure of at least four hours of consideration of a private member's motion.

Paragraph 7, Standing Order 82 amends the order to provide that on Divisions, now that is,of course,when votes are called, when formal votes are ca11ec 1 that the time is expanded to ten minutes from that which is presently,or such lesser time as may be signified to the Speaker by the government and opposition whips. In other words 7 they can say the members are there and they are ready to proceed, it is no longer necessary to wait for the ten minutes. And the reason why we put it ten minutes is this,that the offices are on the fifth floor, this is a practical reason and it some- 4D9

July :!0, 1979 Tape 168 PK - 2 Mr. ~<larshall: times takes more than the five minutes and the three minutes to get upstairs. ~d I think anyone will agree that it is not sensible that a government should be defeated merely because persons cannot get the use of the elevators , you know, and cannot get upstairs. So it allows a reasonable period of time in relation to the present situation which we are in. Also; that Standinq Order would revise the procedure to make and permit Divisions in the Committee of the Whole .

Again, this would prevent the government from, you know, if the govermnent is to be defeeted,let us face it, if it is to be faced with a question and a matter of confidence or some other action is to be taken as a result of the vote, it should not be because people are closeted in a common room or elsewhere, and there should be an adequate opportunity for the expression of members intent. Paragraph 8 is just merely to change the quorum of the Committees from nine to seven. the estimates procedures.

I shall deal with that when I get on Paragraph 9 changes Standing Order 87 and allows, and I will get on to that in a moment as well, allows there to be alterations in the personnel of the Committees, after they are appointed by the House,by a letter signed by the Government House Leader and, of course,the Government House Leader would take advice from the Opposition with respect to the Opposition members with respect to it. I will get on to that when we get on to Committees. Paragraph 10, Standing Order 92 is changed and this is a significant one as well, it deals with petitions.

Petitions now are last on the daily ordinary routine of business. But it provides also that petitions, there may be only· the introducer of the petition and two others speaking to it, one from the government side of the House and one from the opposition side of the House. We obviously wish to perserve the right of petition, but we want them also to be dealt with in a reasonable manner because I think 4:i0

Ju.ly 20, 1\?79 ':'ape 168 PK - 3 Mr. Mars.hall.: all. members or certainly ~st members, the majority of members would agree tllat the manner in which petitions wet"e sametimes ~Ql.eci in the past was really to the extent that they i.ii.tefe:rrl!d unduly witn the operations of the House itself. I th:i.nk a major siqni!icance is the amendlllel!.t with respe~t to the 41.1

July 20, 1979 Tape No. 169 NM - 1 ~. MARSHALL: estimates. While I go through that I could indicate certain of government's Lntentions with respect to the dealing of it this year. Now,on estimates the Committee of Supply will remain seventy-five hours. Then there will be deducted :rom that seventy-five hours the amount necessarily consumed in Interim Supply. That is the way it is now.

The Striking Committee, and that is a committee which we will appoint either today, if we have time, or on Monday, and that is the committee that determines the personnel of committees in the ~ouse itself 1 will meet and they will appoint committees. This year the government intends to use t.IJ.e committee system where it has not been used before. The government intends to have three committees this year dealing with fifteen departments. The compliment of the committee will be not less than seven or more than fifteen, that is provided here.

And I might say~ in connection with that, it is the Lntention this year to have seven m~er committees, with four from the government side and three from the Opposition side. It is also government's intention, in view of its desire to involve the private members of this Bouse, to see that the government nominees on it are persons who are private members on the government side of the House itself.

We feel that this will be much better because it will result in much more involvement on the part of private members themselves and get them very much more involved in the estimates and bring about a meaningful and detailed examination of the estimates themselves. It is no secret ~ for one reason or another ,, that the estimates of this Province in previous years were dealt with in a most unsatisfactory manner, both because of the rules and because of other reasons. And we have to strive, 412

July 20, 1979 Tape No. 169 NM - 2 ~!R. MARSHALL: because of t~e financial situation of ~~s Province and many other reasons, this is the whole basis of parliament itself, to ensure that there is as IIIUCh and as indepth and as detailed an analysis of the expenditures that government poses to make as there can possibly be.

NOW we are doing this, when we de ~'le cOI!IIIi. ttees, we are taking 1:-.tO steps ; we are assuring that there will be this detailed examination on the one hand, and on the otherJ it is our determination to see that our colleagues, who are private members on this side of the House, together with the private members on the other side of the House, get an opportunity to participate in government in a real meaningful way. The next thing, Mr. Speaker, is the time of sitting. It is proposed that the committees may set their own hours of sitting.

They will sit, by the way -ithere they will sit; government proposes to use - there will be three committees - proposes to use the Rouse of Assembly on the one hand. It proposes,hopefully, to use the Collective Bargaining room on the other hand.

But I t."link even more significantly and mere importantly,it is determined that it is also going to use the Colonial Building for the sittings of one of the committees. desire as well as to go ahead, This administration has indicated a to be cognizant of the roots of our Province itself and we feel that it will be, I think, a very significant move on our part to get a portion of the legislative process back into the historical Colonial Building from where some people feel, anyway, it should never have been removed.

The rest on the order of business of the committees themselves is all set forth here and I shall not go into it in any detail except to hit a few highlights. ~gain,in order to assure a completeness of debate itself, the provision in the committees is that the ministers who will attend, not as members but to answer 413

Ju.ly _Q , 979 Tage No. 169 )1&. MARS.HALL: questions from the private members of this aouse, will have fi£teen minutes to introduce their estilllates. !n otl:J,er words, they cannot go on interminailly and usurp all of the period of tilDe provided.

And the person responding wil.l have fifteen minutes to respond and thereafter each member can speak for ten lllinutes .. trow it does not mean he can speak for ten minutes only and he is limited to debate for onl,y ten minutes, what it !l!eans is a person must so organize nis thoughts that he speaks for ten minutes and then sits down and gives another per.son a chance. He or she may then get up afterwards and speak for another ten minutes. So l: want to emphasize that and ~e aqain and aqain that 414

.July 20, 1979 Tape 170 EC - l MR. MARSHAI.I.' I t.'link it is ve:::y si'lallow and superficial of any ind-ividual to turn around and say the p~se of these rules is to limit debate. I ell!phasize aqa:i.n and aqa:i.n that this is a parllamantuy reforsa which is done i:1 a sinc:are attempt by this govemmant in order to involve all 11111111bers of the Rouse in the way in which they should be and the electors intendad them to ae when they sent th- to the hon. House of Assembly. ~ liON. MEMBERS' H:e&r, hear! Now, Mr.

Speaker, as we go on, ':lle COIIllllitteea wlti.ch will be estal)lished - chis is i.q)ortant to know as well - tile COIIIII.ittees which will be estai)lished shall have fifteen days within wilich to report back to the House, itself. In other words, they can sit for aa lonq as they want to p-rovided they cannot sit whlln the iiouse is in session exc:ept with the leave of the House, itself, but:. they can sit within that fifteen days as lonq as the colllllittee datersaines it is qoinq to sit but it liiUSt. report back to the House within fifteen days of its constitution.

And then at that time the d\aiman of the c:ollllllittee will report to the House of Assembly and there will be a three hour daD&c:e on that report. The d\aiman of the c:oll!llli.t.tee will qet up and say the usual, that the collllllittee has or has not - usually and hopefully it will be 'has' considared tile matters to them referred and l1a.s passed c:ertain items of expenditure and ask that tile report be received. Then tilere will be opportunity on tile Opposition side and on the government side to have a tilree hour debate on the report of that coaaittee, which we will call a concurrence debate, itself.

And this is put in to assure that even thouqh ' - are puttinq thinqs off in the collllllittee, that anythinq that is necessary . to be brouqht directly to t.he attention of t.he House, itself, will be crouqht directly to the attention of ::he House. lir . Speaker, I t.hink I have prett~ well covered it all. I know other !118111bers will •rish to address themselves to the mation. I should indicate that we look on the rules of this House as an evolving process. It is the intention of government to have the committee on the Standing Orders activated and active as well, that we will 415

.July 20 , 1979 Tape 170 <:C - 2 be zroni taring the changes that coma in anci any changes or improvements that are :::ea.sonably necessary in the future, that ~~ey will be considered. In closing, I would like to - I will close the debate after I hear other coii'IIII8Jlts but at ~'U.s stage I would like to again express r:rf appreciation to the Opposition for their co-operation in this reqarcl. As far u we are conc:ernad this is dona, as I say, in the desire to improve the rules of the House, and we are goinq to give the Opposition, u well, an opportunity to assess the rules publicly.

And we undertake, if the Opposition wishea a zrotion we can do it, but certainly, the government gives the undartalcinq that. in the next session of the Hause we will be prepared to set aside one sittinq day - not being a Wednesday - wharein.on the signature or the proposal of twelva ambers of this House who wish to debate these rules, sa that there can be a public assessment of them if that is nl!cessary. ~w we cannot, I do nat think, zrove in any 11Dre of a raasonable fa.sbi.on than we hava done and I move the adoption of these rules, Mr.

Speaker, and I do so with a graat deal of pride because they indicate a real effort on the part of this government, one 1110nth and one day after it ha.a assumed. office in accordance with its promis~,t.o restore the dignity and esteem of this House of Assembly to the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR, SPEAXER: (Simms) Bella Isle. AN HON. MEMBEll.: SOME HON. ~: MR. R:IBER.TS: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for the Strait of We did it! We did it! !iear, hear! Mr.

Speaker, now that my colleaques have finished demonstrating their enthusiasm for the hon. gentleman opposite, when I finish they can d&lll)nst:rata their enthusiUlll for a. Mr. Speaker, let me l:::legin by saying, Sir, that we support these changes in the rules as they have been proposed by the President of the Council, the han. and learned ll\elllber who is the 416

.:..u.y ;o , _9i9 'l'ape liO :::c - 3 Gove:cuaent House Leader <M.r. Mar.lhall) in addition to tlis one:Ous and tiP coMUIIIinq duties as the President of the lxac:v.Q.ve Council.. I shall speak in a IIIOIIIBAt or so of one or two qua,Ufip.tiODs on that: bec:ause, wllile I express the view of tile c;ft&t. prapcmderanea o£ my colleaques ; then CU'1l those whO fae.l ve:y st.mnqly, an<! .t wau.t. to say that whi..le t do not acp:ee with thei.r pos'ition, I t!'l.iak· it !1aa 41.7

July 20, 197 9 Tape :;o. l7l SD - l :·!R. E: • ROBERTS: some merit and I think it cerl:ainly shculd be expressed ta the House a.oci I think it will be and then, of course, it will speak for itself. 3efora I go into any detail at all an the cha:lqes, I suppose it ili fair to say cct t::aJca i55ua with the non. gentleman when he spoke of the effect of these rule chanqes but let me perhaps acid. to it. I do nat t.'li.nk, e!r. Speaker, and I think I express the views uf m.y colleaques on it, but even if I do not, I speak as somebociy wbc .i.s not the senior member of this fiousa u terms of servic:e.

My friend. from I.aPoile (Mr. s. Nea.ry) i5 the senior meA!Qer of this House in terms of service but the llcn. gentleman f:rom st:. John's E:ast extern (Mr. T. Hickey) and I, throuqh the vagaries of faith, have managed to become the second senior members of this House in te~ of service which may be nothing :aore than a c0111111entary upon e;i.:her the fickleness of tile electorate, if you wish Mr. Speaker, or their ability to IDake improvements in their elected representatives.

Butthe fact remains that tilare are on:l.y three of us who havs been in this Hous~ - two have been here for five eJ.actions and tha third. my fr.i.QIIQ from I.aPoile who has been reauneci to the House six times. so when I say that I do not think the rules in themselves will bring about the improvemant which we all l:lcpe for and. wilic:il we all work E~r, I do not say that ~n any critic:i~ of the rules or any criticism of the proposed cilanges. Like every 111em.ber and.

I knew I speak for every member, tha fifty-two o.f us, on t.'lis point all of us feel that tili:o Ciouse needs to improve its performanc:e, neecis t:o improve its effec;tiveness, needs ta ;;erve better the intarests of the people of t.'lis Province. over the la.at period of years and I do net put any period of one or two or t..'lree or five but over t..'1e last period of years I t:.'ti.nk many of u.s,or perhaps all of us who served in the neuse hi!ve, from time ta time, felt less than proud of what tha !:louse na.a done. ~ do not lily blame on any paJ::ticular ind.ivic:iua.l, I 418

:\lly ~0, 1979 Tape 110. 171 so - 2 :r.-q,. :::. ROBE~TS : suspect all o:f \lS ~o~no participated in tile House are entitied to receive a.llli snou~,in fact. receive a snare of whatever blame there I!IAY have been. The important thing thOuqh is that that is beh.i.lld. w;. I think this session to d4 te , <l.r.d ! i1ave no do\Wt t.us •rill continua, we have seen a new tone set. ! t.'link the llon. gentlemen opposite have dona their share to br~g this about and. I think that we on this side, ar. Speaker, have dona our share eo bring this about. Nobody wins,.

It is not a matter of advantaqa fer the govern~~~~~nt · siCa or our side~ t::he on.ly winnex-s as a result of that new arriUlqement will be t::hG on.ly people who should win aJl4 that is t::ba people of tnis ?roviru:e. I think that is ~o~hat is important, ~. Spa&lcer. SOME BON. :<!EMBERS : !:!ear, hear. MR. .E • RO BER'l'S 1 The rule chanqes in themselves ;.rill not brinq it about if 'lie do not have t::!1e atmosphere o:f - I ~o~ant to say of co~paration, this is net a tea party.

I do not mind strcnq debate, 70u lc:now, in fact,we must have stronq debate we must have stronq diffarsnces of opinion because the fifty-two of \lS nave bean sent here to speak and. to resolve seriow; issues. And we are goinq to have differencas of opinion and strongly b.eld differences of opinion on qreat issues and so we should. But I think we can still have a spirit of co-opex-ation, a recognition of a COIIII!Ion desire and a co111111on intent to serve the ?eQple of this Province even if we may differ on the methods by 'Nhich that service should be rendered.

And perhaps on an asiae I could bring to til& attention of c.•e ministry something which I find offensive as a member of the House and that is t:."le description conta.ined in the E:stimates of the legislative process. This liouse, Sir, runs the government of this l?rcvincs i~ t::he sense there is no government until aJld unless they have the support of the members o:f this liouse. . 419

.Jill~· 20, 1979 Tape No. 171 Su - 3 ~lR. E. ?.OSERTS; There is no Supply, ~~ere is no money, there can not ba one nickel spent u t:her ::..'tan the few dollars a.utilori.zed on staeuto.ry expenditures by us earlier, ::here can net be one dollar spent . .,.ithout c:he approval of this House. An!i I find it offensive, to say the least- .r do not think it was intended to be offensive but I would. hope the ltLn.ister of Finance (Dr . J.

Collins) would bring it to the attention of h.is officials and would arrange to have a correction made. '!:he description is contained in the E:st:i.JIIa.tes wll.ich he tabled yesterday saying: "The House of Assembly consists of the elected representatives of the Province." that is correct •. "whose primary responsi.bili ty is w expres:o the views, needs and. wishes of tileir constituent$ in t:.1eir study and debate of the law making process,.• That is not our primary responsibility. AN H:ON. :-JE."'BER: ~. E • ROBERTS ; l:iear , hear • our primary responsibility is to be respon5ible for governing this Province.

The Government, of which the hen. ~linister of Finance is a. ciistinqu.:i.sned and leading. member, the government are the government simply because they have the support af a majority of the members of this House and the civil servants who produced.that should quite correctly :be askad to correct it. I do not th.ink they did it in any spirit of malice bat it is indicative of the kind of attitude that perhaps ;~s grown up about this House over the years.

This !:louse, Sir, is the suprema parliament of this Province su.bject only to the aritisll North American Act ""h.ich limits the types of laws we IDa¥ make :Out wit.'lin that we are the supreme body.in this Province ;uxl. in that sense we ara just as supreme as ::he Parliament at Ottawa which my frl.e.r .... the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. Jamieson) served wi~L such great distinction for twelve or thirteen years. we are supreme and the Civil ;>ervice, Sir, answer to us, They answer to the govermnent but ::he government answers to us 420

July 2~, 1979 rape No. 172 DW - l :m. ~. ROBERTS: and the government are the government because they have the support, because they have the confidence of a ~ajority of the members of this Bouse and that should never be forgotten. Mr. Speaker, the rule changes, as I have said, will be effective only if they are carried out in an atmosphere of a willingness to recognize that this House has a role and the role is to represent the interest of the 'eople of this Province and to ensure that the Government of this Province is responsive to wishes of the people whom it is attempting to serve.

I think the rule changes will help, Sir, and I think even more important than that is the spirit in which they have been worked out. I want to say, I want to make it quite clear that these rules and I think my learned friend opposite made the point and I agree with him and I reinforce it, that these rules are not the government's rule changes, they are the House's rule changes. The government took the lead, as was their duty and as was their responsibility and they have propose~ rule changes.

But the government then responded and I want to 'ut this on the record, I think very positively our caucus was given an ample opportunity, the learned gentleman opposite, the hon. gentleman, the President of the Council, agreed to hold off the Notice· of Motion for two or ~~ee days so we did have an opportunity to study it. Perha9s we could have had a longer opportunity but some things cannot be done.

We made some responses and I want to acknowledge now that in a number of very important matters, points which we raised were taken into account by the government and the appropriate changes were made in the rules as they now stand in the name of the hen. the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall).

We went along with it, Sir, we went along with these rules only after a great deal of thought and consideration and as I have said - I think it is fair to say at least one of my colleagues ~as indicated he wishes to speak and I think it is :air to say that he has honestly and sincerely held reservations. ae can express them. He certainly needs no help from me to express himself and to make his point clear, but I think it is equally fair to say that the grea~ majority, 42~

.J'-lly 20, 197'! '!'a~e ~rc. 172 r.'t1 - 2 ~!:!!.. !: • E!.O!!ERTS : the great preponderance feel as I do , that :hese changes are a step forward. They are not perfec:t:, Sir, and they cer-..ainly do not represent everythi~;q we •JIOuld want if '"'e were drafting the rules. But, Sir, we are not responsible for drafting the rules, we are not the government. That issue was settled on the 18th. of June and the han. gentlemen opposite have 'WOn the right ,at the hands of the people of ~ewfounclland and Labrador, to be the Government of this Province for t..'le period provided for in the laws of t.'lis Province.

But wltile the rules are not perfect, Sir, we think they are a considerable step forward. We also feel t:ha.t as the goveJ:runent did take into account our wishes and have made changes to reflect the points which we brought forw~, they are worthy of our support and accordingly we are prepared to support them. Mr. Speaker, the areas of change, I think they have been well spelled out by President of t."'e Council (Mr. ~arsha.ll). I do not propose to go through them in U1Y detail.

I think he has summed up quit~ clearly the affect of the ~Tarious chanqes which 'WOUld come into effect if this motion carries,as I believe it will, as I understand it will. The only point that I 'WOuld make is that some of 111/f colleaquas' some of our members, the members sitting to ~our Honour's right do have some reservations about t."'e change in the right,which members hither- to have enjoyed~to gain unlimited time by moving a motion of non­ confidence.

Now we are prepared to accept the chanqe, we have accepted it, we have grappled with it, we hava resolVIId it in cur own caucus but I think it is fair to put that on record. I listened to what the hon. gentleman said and I am prepared to take that as representing an honestly held oosi tion. I have no doubt that is the c.overnment 's view. we ·.,ant alonq with it essentially because this change, the restriction in ~"'e length of time does not restrict the number of times that a member may 1110'111! a motion of non-confidence.

That right is still preserved and it will simply mean if a member feels that he has a ~oint so serious that he cannot make it in sixty minutes and that could quite aasily be the case- 422

::.tly 2:) , 1979 1'ape ~o. ow - 3 ~. .E. :tOBE."t'l'S : I know that my friend, t:he President or the Council (~. Marshall) wili agree that whiloe perhaps t:he unlimited t:i;J;ne on a non-confidence 11\easw:e was used 9911\etimes for the · legitimate purpose of a filibuster, there were other tilDes wllen the case to be laid out in support of a non-<:onficien<;:'e motion was such that it would re<iui;ce more than sixty minutes adequately to put it b.efore the eouse. That can be achieved then by the process of an amendment or 423

July 20,1979 Tape No. 173 AH-1 ~R. ROBERTS: a sub-amendmene and two bites out off the apple will ~~ill see the apple eaten ; to carry through that IMttaphor. Mr. Speaker, we also felt and we so suqqested to the qovernment,that these chanqes ouqht to be adopted on a sessional basis. That would mean that they would be in effect only for this session but that at the end of the session the matter would coma up for review 7 or at the beqinninq of the next session they would come up for revi- aqain.

The government felt that the matter wu such that the c:l:ulnqes ouqht to be maQ.e penumene and that is the way they now stand. We thouqht lonq and hard about this and llf'/ hon. friend has indicated that the government are prepared and I think it is fair to say are prepared in response to concerns which we expressed.to take two steps. one,is to activate the staridinq Orders COIIIIIIi.ttee.. iihat.-r the technically correct name of it is_.

I believe it is Standinq Order B4(bl, but to activate that Collllllittee. to appoint it at an early time:t::l cause it to meet and to cause it to have a look at our rules because I think our ru~es, Sir, need a thorouqh revision. I am not_sure ~V need any s~bstantive revision but I think they need a thorouqh revision in that they are in 1IWlY caaas archaic, badly drafted - and I do not say that in criticism of the draftsman. Sane of them I suspect were never properly drafted they just emerged and evolved.

In essence, these rules qrew from 1949, Sir, and in 1949 they represented what those who put them together in 1949 , as I understand it, recalled of what was in effect in 1934. And the pre-coaaission, the Responsible Government Rouse of Assembly wu a pretty chaotic placa in many ways. ~Y friend tha i'remiar is ~ great lti.stori.an, reads widely in histDry, ne, perhaps ; has read scme of the debates wtti.ch -re published.

The House was c~lete chaos · and anybody who thinks that this Rouse on · oceasion has deteriorated into less than acceptable conduct ouqht to read what went on in the 1920s and in the 1930s when political life in Newfoundland did deteriorate. on that point, by the way. I will take issue with the i'resident of the council.. I was surprised to hear him cite the Amulree Report and it was in the Throne Speech as 424

July 20,1979 Tape No. 173 AH-2 ~"!.. ROBERTS: well. With any sort of favourable feelinq cty understanding of Newfoundland history is a. nybody who has read any history of N"ewfoundland knows that the Amulree Report was the classic hatchet job, the classic hatchet job on the then Dominion of Newfoundland. I think t.''l.e historians have shown that it is biased, badl~ written, inaccurate , has the wrong emphasis, was the wronq diagnosis of what was wrong with Newfoundland and on, and on and on.

This is not the place for an historical debate but I simply want to say that I do not think anybody should cite the Amul.ree Report with approval. And in my view I think it is a. matter of astonishment that anybody feels that the Amulree Report is anything except a document which ouqht to be held up to ridicule and exposed for what it really is. Be that ar. it may, Sir, we have agreed to go alone; with the government and make these rule changes on a. germanent basis. As the President of the Council said, we could have stopped them in the short-term, we could have forced them to amen.d the House of Assembly Act.

They could have had their way in the long run and I do not find that offensive, Sir, because as I said they are the government. In the long run they have the rj_ght to do as they believe best and they will answer to the peop·le 6f the ~ravince for what they do and that , Sir, is the real check. The reason . why we have g.one along with the government, Sir, and I want to say this clearly, is that we believe the government are acting in good faith. We know that we are. We believe that they are.

I think that t.heir move in bringing in these rules , these changes is a good faith effort , a ~ona fide effort being made to improve the functioning, the •#Orking of this House of Assembly. to allow members to participate more effectively, to allow the House to function more effectively, to allow the people of this Province better to be served by this House. On that basis we are certainly prepared to go along wi~~ it 425

.July 20,1979 .li.H-3 ~!'.. RO!!ERTS: and we will try ::o make ~~em work, we will try to work within the framework they provide and if 426

Jul y 20, 1979 Tape No. lH NH - 1 :·IR. ROBERTS: we find at the beginning of the next session, on the basis of the experience of this session, if we find that the changes are not achieving the effect t!1.en we shall certainly 1110Ve through the members we will have on the Standing Orders COI!IIIi.ttee, we shall certainly move through the procedure which the hon. gentleman has offered • .'\.nd we do not need a motion on it. we accept his statement of policy on .behalf of his colleagues in the government that that is enough for us, we have no question, we shall certainly move for a debate to express our concerns.

We are willing to make these rules work if they can work. We .believe they can .but we will not !mow until we try. We are prepared to go forward , S.ir, in good faith just as we believe the government are prepared to go forward in good faith in the interest of this House and of this Province. So let me close on that note, Mr. Speaker, let me close by saying that we accept the ~~le changes. We believe they represent a step forWard. 0nly the test of time and !;he test of experience will show us whether or not they do .

But I want to emphasize again that the rule changes in themselves -in our view ; will not do what needs to be done. The real reform in this House is not just in rule changes, they are but the symptom, they are but part of the cure_, the real reform in this House must come from the fifty-two of us, the fifty-two men and women who have been sent here by the people of this Province to be the thirty-eighth General Assembly of this Province and to act as members of the General Assembly for the period of life given to us by the law.

For our part, Sir, we are going to try to work in a spirit of co-operation, not giving up our rights, not giving up our views. no, but in a spuit of co-operation to make this House work. The government I want to say, and I speak in particular I think here f or my friend the Leader of t he Opposition (Mr. o. Jamieson) who will speak a little later in this debate to ~peak for himself, I know I reflect his view and I reflect the view I believe of our caucus, we feel that the government 427

Jllly 20, 1979 Tape :-lo. 174 NM - 2 ~- ROBERTS: are coming into this session in exactly the same spirit. I.Ze hope that it continues because there are certainly a number of moves that ought to be made in our view, a n~r of things that ought to be done to make this House better fitted to serve the people. And if the members of the House are themselves willing to try then I think they ought to be given the opportunity and the wherewithal, the ability to carry through their ~ntention. The rule changes, Sir, will certainly help to that end and in that 11ein 1e do support them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker , I do not want to take up very mucl'l time in this debate. The President of the Council and the Government HOuse Leader has detailed the major changes and amendments, what I like to call reforms to the Standing Orders that have been proposed and that have been negotiated between both parties _. if you will, parties in the large definition of that word, over the last week or so. I think I would have to go on record, Mr.

Speaker, as expressing the kind of gratitude that the President of the Council and the Opposition House Leader has just done in the way we have gone about the changes. I think it is fair to say that the Leader of the Opposition and the Opposition ROuse Leader have been extremely co-operative in this regard, very, very co-operative and I ·~t to thank them sincerely for the co-operation that they have shown. Of course,I must say in dealings that I have had with the Opposition Rouse Leader over the years, especially private dealings, not necessaril y all the debates in the House - MR.

ROBERTS: Not debates here in the House. PRFMIER PECKFORD: - not the debates in the House but the normal and ordinary neqotiations I have had on many things dealing 428

July 20. 1979 Tape ~o. 17.:! P~IIER !?ECKFORD: with his district years ago when I was a ~nister in the different departments, have always been extremely fair and equitable and I think he shows again in the negotiations on these rule changes, the same kind of co­ operation I did have w:ith him in the past. So it is nothing ~H -3 new for me to recognize the Opposition House Leader's co-operative spirit because it has been demonstrated on many occasions between both of us. ,'fR . ROBERTS: (Inaudible). PP.EMIE.~ PECKFORD: But, Mr.

Speaker, first of all my first point is simply to thank the Leader of the Opposition and the Opposition Rouse Leader for their co-operation alan~ the lines of amending and changing and refoming the rules of the Rouse. Point number two, Mr. Speaker, these , of course.are not all embracing, tl}ey are not the end of t:.he world. they are not what one would classify as an all embracing look at the rules of the Rouse.

There are many, many others which are more technical in nature, which are more difficult to find consensus an among t:.he caucus on this side and the caucus an t:.he ather side and we have decided to isolate , really,those rules which were most easy t:.o­ chanqe in one sense because I think not only do members of this present House but former members and the ~eople generally who 429

J'uly 20, 1979 Tape l75 EC - l ?REHIER ?EC::X.:"""'RD: wal:ch tilrougn t:.'1.e media, tilrcugn the papers tile operation of tilis House feel ue abused tile lllCS'I:. and ones Wilich really impair tile normal and na'l:.uraJ. and efficient workings of tile House, and. hence we have deaJ.t witil tile question of tile lengtil of speaking, tile question of Private Members' Day and lllCSt importantly - and I tilink tilis is the major change in tilem - is ~e question of es'l:.~lishing so- collllllittees. in t:he HQuse.

And for those new !IWIIIbers who are present on tile aac:lcbenches on botil sides, let me just say that I remember very distinctly the first day that I entered this non. Chamber, I guess it wu wnere the hen. tlie IMII!ber for ?'crtuna - Hemiuge (Mr. stewart) is now or where tile non. the IIIIHIIber fer Humber West (Mr. Baird) i:s - I thinJc. tila'l:. wu the firs'!:. seat. I was just barely in the House, just scraped in the Bouse, not only as it relates to tile physical location of myself nera in this Chamber but al.so as it rela'l:.u to the way tile people of Green Bay responded at that particular time.

It was no1:. an overwhelming victory. But in any case, I was here and. fer the first week, biO weeks, three weeks, a lllCntil or several lllCnths , it was a sttange and weird and wonderful place that I had entered. No'l:. that I was not aware of House proceedings or parliamentary proceedings before - I was - but to be physically there tilen was a differenl: thing. One can read about it all one likes or s- i'l:. 'l:.ilrougll tile media, but being here is sometiling else.

ADd then going throuqll tile first Bwiqet Speech and the first Estimates that were presented, it was a strange and foreiqn thi~g to try to review and go throuqh all tile numbers and all tile subheads and all the rest of it. And it took a couple of years to really get used to it.

And the other tiling is tilat I discovered perhaps in the second or tilird year of tilat first tar111 certain governu.nt proqrammes that were available tilat I did not know were available fer t.'lose oro or three years • So I was not able to agitate, lobt)y for rey constituents in tile •o~ay I should have been ~le to do for p&rticipation in tllat programme because I had not known it existed.

And when tile ministers of tile gove~n'l:. of that day and tile lllCre learned gentlemen on tile Opposition side s'I:.OOd in tileir places to debate these various proqriiiiiii8S and more particululy to debate tile principles of a given department and the kinds of general proqr-s tiley were adlllinisterinq, many of tllese smaller, yet very impcr1:anl: proqrammes 430

.;w_y 2,0 1 1979 Tape 175 E:C - 2 were missed by the bac:Jcllenches as they were l::iy aven the front: bench even t.'louqh the front l::ianc.'l knew a.ll about: tllem. So many lli8111Ders, unless you have soma kind of commi:;:;ee system - Which chis does - and. therefore, the bac:kbanchltrs beinq fully involved. in it, would not have the time reu.ly to grapple with and. understand the various proqr-s and know aDoUt the vari.ous proqr-s in departments wiU.ch affect t.'lem directly and their constituents directly. Anq. I think besides the committees themselves beinq established. throuqh. these amendments, Mr.

Speaxer, evan liiCre important is the desire on the government's part and also on the Opposition's part to place on those collllllittees,:Oackbanc:ilers - no ministers to be c:llai%men, nQ niinisters to be members of those COIIIIIIi.ttees, that it has to be done by the bac:kbenchers on both sicl.es, if you will, in the sense that there ara, you know, the Opposition House Laacl.er and. other senior members who ~ not lllinisters obviously, but wb.o ue liiCre familiar wi til it. And. I am. suz:a tb..&t the Leacl.er of the Opposition and the Opposition House Leacl.er will see that the newer members of chis hon.

House on the opposite sicie rea.lly get an opportunity to participate in these committees and therefore get to know a lot liDre about proqra~~~~~es that are in place and to question lllinisters about these proqrammes. And aqain, Mr. Speaxer, on that point of collllllittees, a third. point is simply that as most Newfouncl.landers know and liDSt lllell1i:lers of this House know, what can very easily happen if you do not have these committees is that the wide-ranq.inq debate on the Estimates becomes the Bucl.qet debate. And. they are separate, Mr.

Speaxer, one is general and. the principles involved - it is like dcinq leqislation, there is second. reacl.inq and then there is the Colllllli ttee of the Whole in which there is a clause by clause. Well, in the Sillll8 way we must separate t.'le Bucl.qet debate as it re.lates to th• overall thrust or lack of it t.'iae ~'le government is qivinq to the Province from the clause by clause, sWlneacl. by subhead. approach.

Anci by doinq that then all of us benefit because a.ll non. members wi~l g~t an opporeunity to participate in t.'la audget debate as it relates to what government is or is not dcinq, and therefore, the Opposition should throw volleys at us on those issues. 431.

.:ul y _o, 1973 Tape ;. 75 c:c - 3 Sut adciil;ional.iy .mq, just as importa.nt for all. l1on. 1118111bers is to get dQwn to a claU.S!! :Oy clause, dOllar by CiOU.u axaminati,on ol l:ha ~eular slll:lheads i;l eve:y dllpartmant so tllat th~f~ - &%'!1 really s~ini.Dq and ma,killq poss~e far 'betti!r use of c:nu" tiiM on ~ t;wo fxonts, -~US41 naw you have both of t:iuQII, In tha last nl,mlber of years bon. llll!llibUs real.ly only had one and that- was that the Budqet ddata _..,.. the htillla~s debate. And altr.ouqh the ~ition <=9uld 432

J\lly 20, 1979 Tape 176 PK - 1 Premier ?eckford: criticize the government for not calling the Budget debate, in actual fact the government had a very good point in its retort by saying we have had the Budget debate because that is all that the estimates have been concerned with, the estimate considerations have been concerned with was the debate on the Budget Speech rather than a particular examination of the estimates themselves.

And this will ensure that we actually have both and sertherefore 1 the vulnerability of the House to falling into that trap of just having a Budget debate is far lessened in this particular instance. I think that is very important. A final point, Mr. Speaker. Simply that we are prepared,as the House Leader has pointed out, to give the Opposition the opportunity in the next session to have a full-scale debate on these rules and on the rules in total to see how they work as we get into it in this session, and 'He are prepared on any reasonable changes that might come up at that time.

And we will establish a committee, a striking committee, I think it is three ana. two - MR. MARSHALL: PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. MARSHM.L: ?REMIER PECKFORD: Four and three. Four and three, four members from this side - The striking committee, three and two. Three and two, yes, right. Three and two, three from this side and two from the Opposition side to examine the other rules that might need some changes and reforms,, and, also, at the sa111e time to observe the workings of the committees and the new rules that we will now hopefully pass before this day is out. So we want to be flexible and reasonable.

I think we have demonstrated that to the Leader of the Opposition and to the caucus on the opposite side. And I think this can go down, Mr. Speaker , as a red letter day in the operations of this House. And I agree,of course,with the Opposition House Leader that you can have all of the rule ch!lllges you like but if there is not that spirit of 433

July ZO, 1979 Tape 176 ?K - 2 Pra~ier Peckford: co-operation then the rules mean nothing. So that,therefore,we can go so far on changing rules, the rest of it is up to every hon. member to be responsible in their approach to this, to criticize and to support or whatever government on diiferent programmes, but to do it :i.n a spirit of responsibility, and a spirit of construction, _;_n most cases • Sometimes there has to be some destruction as well in order to - you have to get rid of something before you can put something in its place.

But if there is that kind of spirit of co-operation yet,attack and opposition, then I think we are on the road to having members in this House in years to come look bac.!t on this as a major reform and a major attempt by hon. members to really elevate not only this House but how politics has operated in Newfoundland.

And so I am very proud to be associated with these amendments today and trust that hon. members opposite will take them in t!1e spirit that they are meant and we are willing always to participate in other changes and to be fair, and to compromise, and to give and take, to see that all of us together can do a better job on serving the people of this Province. Thank you very much. SOME EiON. MEMBE:RS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (S:IMMSl: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: ~r- Speaker, the hon. gentleman who just took his seat, Sir, said that the future members of this Bouse •~ill look upon these rule changes as a red-letter day in Newfoundland's history.

I would submit, Sir, that they will look upon it and our childrens children will look upon it as black Friday, as a sad day for Newfoundland. as the day tha~ the Mussolini type politics came into this Province, where we have arbitrary dictorial decisions being made by a government that told us only a few weeks ago , a few months ago when the former Premier retired at a big banquet that they had for the hon. gentleman that he had brought democracy to sewfoundland, had brought democracy to Newfoundland, and I will deal wi~, that in a few short minutes, Sir. 434

July ::o, 1979 Tape 176 ?!< - 3 Mr. tleary: What I am gettinq at, Mr . Speaker, is that in every other jurisdictio~ in the world, every other jurisdiction in the world, in canada, in Great Britain, in e•rery other part of the British Empire when there are substa,ntive chanqes ma4e to rules in the Leqislature they are made by a Committee of the House and ~t rammed down the throats of the members by a. dictorial. attitude of the ~ent House Leader. And hew do I Jalcw that, Sir? How do I !cnow that?

WeJ.l1 I am not a. student of history J I do not know as much about his ·tory as lay han. friend, the Opposition Erouse Leader 1 but I pidced up lay phone yesterday as any member on any side of this eouse could have done and .I picked three provi.lices at random. t said I will check to see how our new rule changes coincide with the niles in other prcvi.nces of canada, and the fo:z:mer Speaker wiU probably realize what I am qoinq to say, the 'significance of it, an4 ~ picked 435

Ju.ly 20, 1979 Tape No. 177 so - l Nova Scot~a, Ontar~o and Saskatchewan. I sa~d I will call these three provinces, the Clerk of the House or tlle Speaker of the House or the Deputy Speak.er al¥i I will ask cutain questions. And the questions that I wanted to put to these j?eople had to do with the revised rule chanqes in til.is House. So I called up Nova Scotia and. the first question I put to the Cl.erk i.n the Province of Nova Scotia: "Do you n<~ve a limit,"I Sii.i.d,"on the time of d.e.ba.te for tlle estimates :.ot the Suliqet Speech now, I am talking about the item by item analysia of the o.stima.tes?

A.nd t.'1.e answer from Nova Scotia was: "No, no limit on the time you can discuss or debate the estimates item by item." Ontario - three huildred and twenty-five ilours1 Saska.tche·.~an - no time limit. I asked the people that I talked to in Nova Scotia if they sent tlleir ~timates to collllllitteesallli the answer was an emphatic no. I asked Ontario. They said t."ley send half tlle 13Stimates to committeesand the othu half are done in the I.egialature.

A."lli in Saskatcb.ewan the answer was =· .'Uld wllat I l13arned from Saska.tchewan was tilat they ha.:l,. on a number of occasions, appointed a Select Committee of tile House or a R!Ues COmmittee to bring in recoamendations for the chanqes of rules in the Legislilture of Saskatchew<~n.

And. the Rules Committee religiously brought in a recoiiiiD.endation tb.at .:he estimates be sent to cciiiiD.ittees and the House l::as overruled, consistantly overruled the Rules Coi!UIIittee and said, "::o, this is tile neal thy way to do it, this is the mosl: decccratic way to do it and we are going to continue to do it in the spirit of tile British Parliamentary system." I also asked. tilese three provinces if there was any limit on the time that mem.bus were ?ermitted to speak in the Legislature. Nova Scotia - one hour at a time; Ontario - no limit, sky is the limit1 Saskatchewan - nc time limit.

I al.so .raised the matter of unlimit_.<i time in these jurisdictions. Nova Scotia did not quite comprehend what ;. was getting at. The Cluk thought 436

J10.ly Zu, .i.979 Tape ~c • .i.77 so - 2 :·!R. S. NEARY: there was ;.;n.limi ted time but was net quite sure. In Ontario on secolld reading of bills alld on government motions. the sky is the limit, unlimited time, no time limit, no restricti