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April 15,

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East,

substitutes for Gerry Rogers, MHA for St. John's Centre.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

MR. LITTLEJOHN: Good morning, everyone. Welcome.

We have some formalities prior to starting this morning. We need to do the

election of a Chair and a Vice-Chair. What we will do right now is I will turn

it over to Elizabeth for the call for nominations for the Chair.

Elizabeth, if you would please.

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Are there any nominations for the position of the

Chair?

AN HON. MEMBER: I nominate Glenn Littlejohn.

CLERK: Any further nominations?

Any further nominations?

Any further nominations?

Mr. Littlejohn, being the only candidate, is acclaimed.

CHAIR (Littlejohn): Thank you, Elizabeth.

I now call for nominations for the position of Vice-Chair.

Could I have someone nominated for the position of Vice-Chair, please?

Mr. Joyce was the Vice-Chair last year. Could I have a nomination for

someone?

MR. CRUMMELL: I will nominate Mr. Joyce.

CHAIR: Mr. Crummell nominates Mr. Joyce.

Are there any further nominations for the position of Vice-Chair for the

first time? Are there any further nominations for the position of Vice-Chair the

second time? Are there any further nominations for the position of Vice-Chair

the third time?

I hereby declare Mr. Joyce the Vice-Chair by acclamation.

Thank you, members.

Just before we start this morning, just some housekeeping, to remind members

that the minister traditionally will get fifteen minutes for opening remarks and

then we will go ten minutes per member and rotating back and forth to whatever

member is signified.

I want to remind members that if we are substituting last year, I recall that

during Estimates that most of the time critics for the Opposition parties were

present, so I remind members that if they are substituting pursuant to Standing

Order 68, you have to give notice to the Clerk's office prior to the meeting

starting or you will be ineligible to vote, to substitute. I remind people of

that.

MR. JOYCE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: I would suggest if we could do it, Mr. Joyce, if we are doing a

morning session, the afternoon prior to, so we do not have to be running around;

and if it is an evening session, the morning prior to the evening. I think that

would be fair to all members and all parties.

I also remind all members that when you are speaking that you state your name

for Hansard and also your staff minister, when we are speaking, to state their

names so we pick it up on Hansard prior to.

Make sure the light is on before you start to speak. I remind members that if

you get anything like watches or cellphones too close to your mike you are going

to create some feedback for yourselves.

With all that being said, I think we are ready to start. I am going to ask

the members of the Committee to introduce themselves first and if they have any

staffers with them as well. I will start with you, Eddie, if we could.

MR. JOYCE: Eddie Joyce, MHA, Bay of Islands.

MR. LETTO: Graham Letto, Researcher.

MR. MORGAN: Ivan Morgan, Researcher, NDP Caucus.

MR. MURPHY: George Murphy, MHA for St. John's East.

MR. LITTLE: Glen Little, MHA Bonavista South.

MR. CORNECT: Tony Cornect, the beautiful, cultural District of Port au

Port.

MR. CRUMMELL: Dan Crummell, St. John's West.

CHAIR: Minister, if you could, could you introduce yourself and your

staff, Sir, please?

MR. O'BRIEN: Kevin O'Brien, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the MHA

for the District of Gander.

MS MULLALEY: Julia Mullaley, Deputy Minister.

MS HANRAHAN: Denise Hanrahan, Departmental Controller.

MR. SAMSON: Mike Samson, Chief Executive Officer, Fire and Emergency

Services.

MR. HEALEY: Rick Healey, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MR. SMITH: Paul Smith, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MR. MERCER: Cluney Mercer, Assistant Deputy Minister.

MR. DONNAN: Hugh Donnan, Director of Communications.

MS GULLAGE: Cheryl Gullage, Public Relations Specialist.

MR. HEWITT: Justin Hewitt, Executive Assistant.

CHAIR: Mr. Minister, without any further ado, you have your opening

remarks, Sir.

MR. O'BRIEN: Thank you very much.

Welcome everyone

CHAIR: I am sorry, Mr. Minister, one second.

I ask the Clerk to call the first number.

CLERK: 1.1.01.

CHAIR: We are calling 1.1.01, Minister's Office, and I ask the hon.

minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: Good morning, everyone.

It is good to be back after the Easter break. I hope everybody enjoyed it. It

was a good two weeks off, but now ready to get to work and work at least until

August for sure. I hope the House does not close until then because I love the

House.

Anyway, I just want to give you a quick overview of Municipal Affairs. We

have five lines of business, main business, that we conduct on a daily basis.

The first one is local governance. We guide municipalities, give them advice,

and whatnot under the enabling piece of legislation called the Municipalities

Act and our cities acts.

Then we have our municipal infrastructure and engineering division, which

really oversees any of the capital works programs and give engineering support

to a number of the municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador in regard to the

projects we might commit to in any given budget year. We have Employment

Support, which really is the Community Enhancement Program, but we also

administer the permanent plant closure program for the Department of Fisheries,

as well, through that division.

We have our Provincial Affairs, which is really the Registrar General, which

I am as the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I execute that function. Then we have

Financial Services in which we provide financial services to five departments,

along with a couple of agencies and whatnot from that division. It just does not

service Municipal Affairs; it actually services a broad range of departments

right across the Province.

Also, I am responsible for Fire and Emergency Services. Under Fire and

Emergency Services, we provide education, training, certification, regulation,

enforcement, and all that kind of good stuff to close to 300 270-odd, I think,

or 280 fire departments and fire halls right across the Province. We support

them as well under Fire and Emergency Services with some capital money for

vehicles and equipment. We support them in the best way we possibly can, mainly

in the education and training area, which is really important to me, as a

minister.

Under Municipal Affairs, we have 147 staff. We have 100 permanent,

thirty-nine temporary, and we have eight in contract positions. Seventeen of

them, I might mention, are with the Financial Services Division, which I again

reiterate and press on you that it serves actually five departments, along with

the agencies and boards that it oversees, gives advice to.

Under that division, there are sixteen permanent and three temporary. Fire

and Emergency Services has approximately twenty-five or twenty-seven employees

who provide all the training and whatnot that I just mentioned under Fire and

Emergency Services.

I would like to just mention a couple of things in regard to Budget 2013, and

then we will get into the process in regard to my budget. This year, we were

very fortunate to bring forward for the 2014 starting in 2014, as we all know

here in the House of Assembly, that municipalities govern themselves on the

calendar year, not a fiscal year, so at January 1, 2014 we will introduce a new

formula. Right now, all the municipalities, 11,000 and under, will retain the

same Municipal Operating Grant that they did in last year's budget. Nothing will

change for them, so their planning is the same and their budgets are the same as

submitted to me in December.

They will move forward on that, but in 2014 we will implement the new formula

using a $22 million budget that will see most of the municipalities in

Newfoundland and Labrador receive more in regard to Municipal Operating Grants,

but none will receive less. So, if there is any that under the new formula would

have received less as compared to the amount that they were getting before, they

have been red circled and they will get the same.

I also want to say as well that when MHAs are comparing what a municipality

got in the previous years as compared to what they are going to get under the

new MOG formula, that the formula that was developed back in 1991 has been

corrupted many, many times, and it has not been corrupted in any way that you

can follow the reasoning behind why there were reductions made. In other words,

what I am saying is that you cannot compare apples to apples under the present

formula. You could have two towns that are very similar, similar populations of

1,000 people say, and one municipality gets one amount and another municipality

gets another amount.

This new formula will certainly address that issue. As well, we are going to

be using what is called a remote index factor along with the number of occupied

dwellings. When you combine those two in a formula it will spit out a number in

regard to their share of the $22 million.

The remote index factor was developed by the Newfoundland and Labrador

Statistics Agency back in 2005, I believe. It was developed for a number of

reasons. It was based on an Australian model that takes into account the

remoteness of Australia which is very similar to our own issues in remote

Newfoundland and rural Newfoundland and Labrador.

It takes into account their access to certain services such as hospitals,

schools. Community services as well, recreation inflows and all that kind of

good stuff. It gives you a good indicator. Through that process as well, I

should say it takes into account the differences in property values as you move

out away from the actual centres and service areas.

Thus, as the property values go down then it becomes a challenge for that

particular municipality to raise their own source revenue. It takes into account

the challenges that a community would have in that respect. We are using the

number of occupied dwellings as compared to population based because it is the

occupied dwelling that determines the services that are going to be provided by

the municipal council for whichever municipality that you are dealing with.

In this budget as well we removed the communities of 11,000 and greater from

the formula itself. I heard from them over the last year or two that they did

not depend on Municipal Operating Grants. Some of them said they would prefer if

there was some type of another program that their share would be used to help

the other municipalities that have challenges.

I also heard their main focus was on infrastructure, and rightfully so it

should be because you have expanding towns, growth areas such as Gander,

Paradise, CBS, Mount Pearl, St. John's and Corner Brook. We changed that up,

took them out of the formula and provided a $25 million Capital Works Program

this year. That is distributed on a base plus per capita formula to those

municipalities.

As well, they can apply that particular amount or a portion of that

particular amount to capital works programs they had earmarked in their budget,

or current budget they submitted to me and the Department of Municipal Affairs

back in December, that they had earmarked to possibly fund 100 per cent out of

their own operating monies. If you were to take Gander, if Gander was to have a

$500,000 project that they were going to do it 100 per cent, apply the new

monies to that particular project, well then that would offset the loss of the

MOGs because they were only getting a little over $300,000 a year 70 per cent

of $500,000 is $350,000. That is the way we did it. Then they have probably

another $2 million to address some of the challenges they may have.

At this point in time I want to thank MNL for their participation in the

process. We consulted with them. They submitted a written submission to us as

well. A lot of the things they brought to the table were not lost on me or my

officials in regard to the development of the formula. We looked at various

formulas. We looked at base plus per capita and whatnot, but when it all fell

out of the trees some of the things they brought to the table steered me in the

direction of the remote index factor plus a number of occupied dwellings.

As well, we will be bringing forward as you know, we announced last year

$130 million commitment under a two-year program, both in the regular municipal

capital works and the multi-year capital works programs. We will continue that.

There is about $20 million left in that program for the regular municipal

capital works. We will address some of the projects that I will review now over

the next couple of weeks or so with my staff and with MHAs and whoever else that

I will consult with to determine which projects we will go forward with in this

upcoming season with that $20 million. That has nothing to do with the $25

million for the bigger municipalities. That is just purely for the smaller

municipalities.

Under the new budget we reviewed our relocation policy. As I said before, I

have travelled extensively in the Province and will continue to do so. We have

276 municipalities, not counting close to 180, I think, LSDs, somewhere around

that number, around the Province. I would like to get around and talk to the

leaders in those communities and listen to their challenges, listen to their

opportunities and listen to their revisions.

One of the things I heard loud and clear was that our relocation policy

should be looked at because it was implemented about ten years or so ago and has

not been updated since. One of the things that stood out was the quantum in

regard to if a community were to relocate, it did not really meet the housing

standards and the housing values to places they might want to relocate to. It

was set at about $80,000 to $100,000 previously. As we all know in this House of

Assembly, it is pretty hard to buy a house anywhere in Newfoundland or build a

house in Newfoundland and Labrador for $100,000. We changed it to a maximum of

$270,000 to address that issue.

In regard to the policy side, you can avail of a relocation only once in a

lifetime. That is it. If you come out of, wherever it may be, and you move to

another community and that community in the future relocates as well, that

particular person will not be eligible for any quantum from government. It is

only once in a lifetime.

Also, in regard to businesses in those communities, a business owner will not

vote in regard to a relocation vote unless the person lives in that community as

a permanent citizen. We do not think a person living outside a community should

have a vote in regard to if they would or would not, because the person is

compromised in regard to that process and they should not vote. In the process,

if they were to relocate, that business owner would be compensated for their

business in the normal fashion.

I think that is mainly it, other than fire and emergencies services. We

maintain $1.7 million in regard to vehicle purchases this year. We will have a

review of that over the next little while to see exactly.

I have to be upfront as well; I looked very, very closely at regionalization

pieces. That is where I invest in regard to fire halls and fire departments

coming together to provide that service in a more efficient, streamlined way.

That will be the top priority for me, but I will be keeping in mind areas in the

Province that cannot regionalize. They have no other choice, from their

perspective they have to provide the services. If they cannot regionalize, well

then I will take that into account as well.

We have some monies there in the budget as well in regard to equipment,

bunker suits and that kind of gear. We will continue some of the programs that

we have always continued, such as Learn Not to Burn and that kind of thing.

That is an overview of our 2013 Budget, which I think is a really good

budget. I know MNL and various mayors and councillors have supported the budget

over the last two weeks or so and I am proud to be able to say that. I will

continue to work as the Minister of Municipal Affairs as I should for

municipalities in Newfoundland and Labrador.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister, for your opening remarks.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Minister.

I thank all the staff for coming here today to go through the estimates. From

my understanding, it was just a few minutes ago that all the salaries were

posted online. We did not have time to go through them all. The Minister of

Finance just posted them online five minutes ago. We will not go through the

salaries of the departments because they were posted instead of being put into

the budget as usual.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is actually my understanding that they were posted on

Friday. I received notice that they were posted on Friday.

MR. JOYCE: Anyway, that is fine.

What I will do, Minister, for the first while I will just go through some

line items. We will get into some general discussions later.

In 1.1.01, Transportation and Communications, last year the budget was

$44,900, it went up to $70,400, and this year it is back to the estimate of

$44,900. Can you explain, or someone explain the increase in the transportation

and communications for the minister's office last year in

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. First off, I want to be clear, that amount in regard to

transportation and communications is not just transportation. I, as a minister,

have 276 municipalities, along with the LSDs that I have to get out to and see

and meet. Some of them just do not have the means to come and see me. I am ever

so glad to meet with them up in my board office if they can come in, but I am

not going to disenfranchise a municipality because they do not have the means to

get to me. I do a fair bit of travel within the Province.

As well, in regard to that amount, there are a lot of things involved in

that. There are the office phones, my iPad and all kinds of equipment like that,

my executive assistant's BlackBerry, my BlackBerry, whatever it may be. It is

not just travel that is there.

In the meantime, previous to me, the Ministers of Municipal Affairs were all

from the City of St. John's or from a surrounding area close by, Torbay and

Paradise, wherever it may be. In this case here, the Minister of Municipal

Affairs is from Central Newfoundland and Labrador.

I have a family back in Gander. I go back and forth every weekend too, or as

much as I possibly can. Each and every one of you would know that I am

travelling throughout the Province each and every weekend as well. As a matter

of fact, I just got back from up in Labrador. Then I was down in Marystown, and

I was back into Central and did a couple of functions there. Then I am back in

here in the City of St. John's today.

MR. JOYCE: Why wouldn't you keep it up to the $70,400?

MR. O'BRIEN: In the past what we have done, as I said, the $44,900 I

know what you are asking in regard to rightsizing the budget, but the next

Minister of Municipal Affairs may very well be from the City of St. John's. As

you know, the Northeast Avalon holds 50 per cent of our population base and a

fair number of our municipalities, so they would not have to probably travel.

The portion of travel that drives it, which is somewhere between zero and the

$44,900 or so, I think there is about $50,000 there in regard to actual travel.

It is somewhere between the zero and the $50,000 mark that is earmarked for my

travel back and forth to my district, number one; and number two, elsewhere in

the Province.

If you were to right size it you may have to very well right size it back

again sometime in the future. We will just continue as we are, and then address

any questions that you might have in the House at any given time.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. 1.2.02. Salaries, the budget was for $112,000, it went

down to $77,500, but it is back to $102,000. Was that $112,000 not used?

MR. O'BRIEN: You said 1.2

MR. JOYCE: 1.2.02, General Administration.

CHAIR: Page 18.4, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, 01 Salaries?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: It was allocated but it was not used.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we had a delay in staffing of a Clerk II position.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. That person is hired now?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that person is hired now.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. The next thing, the same thing with the Benefits, I am

assuming that would be

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the same.

MR. JOYCE: the same line?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Back in Professional Services, that $3,800, was that a

contract or was that something that was used in 05?

MR. O'BRIEN: That was just for one consultant, one-time basis.

MR. JOYCE: The same thing again, Purchased Services. It was $43,000,

there was only $26,000 used, but it is back to $34,000 now. Can you explain what

that is used for, the Purchased Services?

MR. O'BRIEN: Purchased Services is used for equipment rentals, copiers,

and that kind of thing. We had a decrease of $17,000 there, which reflects a

lower cost than anticipated. Then we went through a spend analysis process and

that kind of stuff, so we had a decrease of about $3,800 there. Overall, that is

just savings in regard to equipment costs, mostly, is where it is all contained

in.

MR. JOYCE:

Section 1.2.03, Salaries again. It was budgeted $1,150,800 but

it only used $973,000, but it is up to $1.1 million again. Can you explain why

the funds were not used and now it is back up again?

MR. O'BRIEN: We had delayed recruitment of a financial officer position,

PCM position. As well, under Salaries we had a decrease in regard to vacancies

and delays of staffing. Now we are up again and those particular positions

hired.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Is there an increase this year?

MR. O'BRIEN: In regard to the 01?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is all contained in regard to Benefits, as well.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Supplies, the same thing, I guess. It is only small amounts. You see it was

not used but it is back up again in 04.

MR. O'BRIEN: In Supplies?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Again, it is just a decrease in from year to year your

supply base changes. We did not use it last year and we had a savings of

approximately $5,000. You cannot anticipate every year what your supply base is

going to be. We went with the same budget line in regard to these estimates, as

compared to what we had in our budget last year.

MR. JOYCE: I will go to Services to Municipalities, Minister, 2.1.01,

Regional Support, Grants and Subsidies. You can see it was $79,500 last year

that was budgeted and the revised was the same amount, $79,500, but this year it

is $119,000. Can you explain the increase in that?

MR. O'BRIEN: There is an increase of $40,000 there that reflects

re-profiling of funding from Policy and Strategic Planning to Grants and

Subsidies. The reason why we did that was that we support PMA which is

professional administrators, which are in St. John's this week actually, and we

pay that out of that. We used to pay it out of Policy and Strategic Planning,

but the better place for that to be is under Grants and Subsidies. So we

re-profiled the money over there where we have a more transparent budget.

MR. JOYCE: What was it used for?

MR. O'BRIEN: To support professional administrators.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

The ones across the Province working at the towns?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, they are here in the city this week for their AGM.

MR. JOYCE: They are, yes.

The next one is Municipal Finance. We can see it is very close on the budget

itself. Last year, it was increased a small bit by about $35,000 and it is back

down again for Municipal Finance. Can you explain the small discrepancies? Is

that just different wage subsidy increases in 2.1.02?

MR. O'BRIEN: That reflects an increase in short-term temporary staffing

and position reclassifications as well. Really, it is only a total of about

$20,500 in that regard and then we had reclassifications in a manager of

financial operations in the financial municipal finance officer's

reclassification piece. We have that from time to time, which you will see small

MR. JOYCE: Policy and Strategic Planning, 2.2.01, Salaries, the budget

was $617,800. It went up to $873,000, an increase of almost $260,000, and it is

back down again to $554,600. Can you explain the difference in the increase and

back down again this year for the decrease again of over $300,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: We had a couple of people retire in the department; two

former directors, which is $255,200 of it in regard to their payout, severance,

and that kind of stuff. We had two go out who retired. That reflects $255,000 of

that amount that we had to pay out. Then we had a couple of other managers in

policy and program planning who retired as well. That is all contained in that

$255,200, so it is rightsizing itself again.

MR. JOYCE: So the decreases of those two people are not on the payroll

this year?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, the increase was that we had to have those

particular two people are not in the payroll, but the positions are refilled

again. We had to pay out in regard to their severance and all the things they

are entitled to once they retire.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Now where it is back down to $554,000, it cannot be the same number of

people, is it? It was $617,000 in the estimate last year and it is down to

$554,000, which is $60,000 and something less.

Are all the positions still

MR. O'BRIEN: We had $44,000 worth of savings in regard to recruitment

delays. Then the other ones will be starting out at lower salary steps than the

people who actually retired. You must remember now that they went out at the

high end and when we hire, we hire at the low steps so that is reflected in the

lower $554,600.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, that makes sense.

Professional Services the budget for last year was $120,000, $324,000 was

spent, and this year there is only $20,000 budgeted.

Can you explain the increase and then back down to

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is the work that had to happen in regard to the

Municipal Operating Grant formula. We had to pay for that, which we paid the

Newfoundland & Labrador Stats Agency. So that is a one-time payment.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, but why is it so low this year? Last year it was

budgeted $120,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. Well, really, we got the work done so we do not

anticipate needing Newfoundland & Labrador Stats this year because we got the

Municipal Operating Grant formula finished.

MR. JOYCE: So you anticipated $120,000 last year, but it went up to

$324,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: We actually did two years of work in one, really. They had

dedicated more people to it because I wanted it for this year's budget. At

first, they had said they would take a two-year period, but that was not

satisfactory to me. Anyway, they decided to dedicate more people to it, which we

had to pay it out in this year's past budget.

MR. JOYCE: That was used mainly for the help with MNL with the structures

MR. O'BRIEN: With the Municipal Operating Grant.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies, $50,000 last year and it is down to $10,000 this year.

Is that just a budgetary

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a re-profiling too of the grant funding from the

Policy and Strategic which we just talked about previous.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the $40,000 up from and to pay out for PMA.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Engineering and Land Use Planning I have some questions later on land use.

Professional Services, 2.3.01, it was budgeted $78,000, there was only $5,000

used, but again in this year's budget it is back up to $58,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Was there money not used?

MR. O'BRIEN: We usually use that for consultants in regard to the

implementation to the Solid Waste Management Strategy, and Engineering Services.

That $73,000 reflects lower than anticipated costs that we had. We have, I

guess, estimated $58,200 for other work that we have to have done in regard to

that implementation process. We are moving now on Western and various other

areas in the Province.

CHAIR: Eddie, I am going to move on. Your time has expired. I am going to

move on to George.

MR. JOYCE: Sure.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, thank you to your staff as well for the work that

they have done in the past year. I know that at times there must have been a

little bit of pressure. I know that the pressure is probably still there in this

particular case with some of the austerity measures that have been undertaken by

this government over the last little while and potentially for the next year and

the year following. Congratulations on your hard work.

Mr. Minister, I wanted to start off with one particular

section of the

budget. Under the Engineering and Land Use Planning section, last year we asked

you about the industrial water usage. You told us last year that it was OCI that

owed $714,300. That balance has not changed.

It is a serious matter for me because I know that while the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador are being asked to put up with cuts, we still have a

case here where industrial monies owing by a particular company still has not

been paid. It does not appear that there has been one penny put down on this

balance when you told us last year that this was a revolving amount and it would

constantly change.

I wonder if you can give us an explanation as to how come we have not pursued

OCI knowing that there are so many budgetary constraints, number one; and,

number two, $714,300, I can certainly think of a few things out there over the

last couple weeks that we have run into that we could be spending that money on.

I am wondering if you could explain that.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. When you are talking about industrial water and the

cost to particular companies and particular towns, you have to remember first

that the industrial water policy was brought in a number of years ago. It was

brought in and what was done it was averaged from one community to another.

What I am saying is that the cost of delivering industrial water in one

community might be completely different than in another community. I will give

you two comparisons if you like. The industrial water supply in Port Union say,

the Town of Trinity Bay North, is less costly to run than the one in Ramea, much

less actually. It was decided back then that the people would be charged, the

communities would be charged, and the companies would be charged a blended rate.

There is some dispute about that in regard to that blended rate.

As you well know, the plant out in Port Union has not been operational now

since Igor. I met with the company back about maybe three weeks to a month ago.

We had a good meeting. They are not shirking the responsibility they have in

regard to paying for that, absolutely not. I want to be clear here in Estimates

today, they know they owe in regard to an amount of water.

As a matter of fact, from an OCI point of view, I commend the company because

they have supported the communities in regard to the plant closure programs with

top ups to our CEE program. They are not that type of company, is what I am

saying.

Government has to seek a way to be fair with these particular companies. That

is what I am trying to do at this particular time. I suspect before next year's

Budget, that amount will not be there because we would have come to an agreement

in regard to the payout on that particular outstanding amount.

MR. MURPHY: Do we know who is going to be handling this file in the

department so that we can come back to them next year to see the progress on the

tackling of this debt?

MR. O'BRIEN: Me.

MR. MURPHY: Yourself? Okay.

Have you given OCI any kind of a timeline as regards to how fast we can get

them to pay this off or is that still under negotiation?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, I do not give them any timelines or whatever. I am sure

once we come to an agreement they will cut a cheque for the full amount. That is

where it is going to be.

I will work with the Department of Finance along with the Town of Trinity Bay

North as well because I have to be fair to the community. Industrial water

supply is not the normal type of water supply and distribution process that you

should be using in regard to delivering water to a community. I have a few

things to work out on both ends of that and we will be working with the

community, along with the MHA and along with OCI in regard to solving that

issue. I am quite sure and confident that I will have it solved within this

fiscal year.

MR. MURPHY: We can have the commitment from the minister that we will see

something tackled on that by

MR. O'BRIEN: You will have a commitment.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

While I am there, while I am in that particular

section 2.3.02 Industrial

Water Services, there is a difference here of

MR. O'BRIEN: Two-point what?

MR. MURPHY: In 2.3.02, it is the same

section the OCI balance is carried

under. Under Salaries, $170,700 for last year, the revised was $125,000. They

are projecting $170,700 this year.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, a vacant position, an Engineering Tech II position. We

had trouble in regard to recruiting. That reflects the $45,700 saving there. We

filled that position.

MR. MURPHY: That position is filled or?

MR. O'BRIEN: Is filled.

MR. MURPHY: It is filled now, okay.

Down to Purchased Services, that same

section again 06, $550,500 actual

against $600,000 last year, budgeted down to $490,000 this year.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. That reflects a reduction measure of $100,000 in

Purchased Services. As I said previous, we mainly use that area for equipment

costs, copiers, or whatever it may be. Also, we do some other things too,

freight costs, whatnot. So we have a re-profile in there for about $10,000 into

T and C as well from that line.

We have the operating and maintenance costs for the Port Union fish plant,

which is no longer needed. So you have a decrease there and a saving as well.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

Minister, I was just wondering too at the same time, when we are talking

about rental costs of equipment and everything has the department done a study

of any savings in this particular case that would make, for example, rental over

direct purchase of equipment? Are we better off renting? Is there some reason

why we have to rent a lot of things rather than making an outright purchase?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, I rented for thirty years in business and it was the

best option back then and I believe it is the best option now, because those

types of equipment change all the time. There is a lot of maintenance that has

to go into them over the years and whatnot. So, you are better off changing them

up every two or three or four years, whatever it may be.

We try to consolidate and streamline any equipment usages within the

department itself, in regard to printers. Whatever cost savings we can apply in

regard to that we do. I want to maximize every single dollar within my

department, and we and my staff endeavour to do that whenever we possibly can.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, perfect.

I want to come back to, when it comes to Regional Support, some Grants and

Subsidies here. I wonder if we could have a breakdown

MR. O'BRIEN: What heading are you under, George?

MR. MURPHY: In 2.1.01 you had an explanation here as regards to Grants

and Subsidies. It was the reprofiling of Grants and Subsidies support for

professional administrators. I am wondering as regards to the amount of money

there? Again, just to get it clarified.

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, the amount of money there is mainly about $40,000

came up from Policy and Strategic Planning, up to Grants and Subsidies where it

should be. If you are going to support your professional administrators, MNL, or

whatever it may be, it should be coming out of the Grants and Subsidy area.

We are reprofiling and restreamlining our budget lines to reflect a better

way of putting that money out to those particular groups that need it. That

supports their everyday operation, along with their AGM, which is happening this

week in the City of St. John's. As well, we will have staff there during this

process for training and that kind of thing. So, it is a very beneficial

investment when it comes to municipalities, and especially rural municipalities

in the Province.

MR. MURPHY: Can the rural municipalities, when it comes to the training,

expect to see this dollar amount, for example, in next year's budget?

I know training for municipal officers, that sort of thing, is a bit of a

concern amongst municipalities. So, I am looking at this dollar amount, $79,500,

and I am wondering if there is going to be more money put into the budgetary

requirements of municipalities for that? Is this going to be well, basically

the $119,500, are we going to something more substantial for training?

MR. O'BRIEN: Each and every year our budget changes. It depends on your

revenue streams or it depends on a lot of things that happens over a year.

If you were to have a look at my budget, and you mentioned the austerity

issues that have happened in this budget, I will say this, from my position as

the Minister of Municipal Affairs, our government and our Premier understand

full well the value of investing in our municipalities. That is the reason you

see my budget lines to be what they are, because we aim to strengthen

Newfoundland and Labrador from the ground up, which the municipalities are the

ground. We are the second level of government and then you go to the third,

which is the feds.

That budget line is there. It has been there and we have supported the

professional administrators and we have supported MNL now for a number of years.

I believe there have been increases with regard to that amount over the years,

as well, over the last ten years.

All I will say is that from my position as the Minister of Municipal Affairs,

I intend to keep supporting PMA and keep supporting MNL as long as possible

not as long as possible, but as long as I am here. The simple reason is that is

valued dollars. That is a good investment.

CHAIR: George, we will get back to you in a little bit.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: No

CHAIR: No, at this point we will go back to you.

MR. JOYCE: I did not know if they wanted to have a few questions or not.

Minister, I will just keep going down line by line. In 2.3.02.06, Purchased

Services, there was $600,000 there last year, there was only $550,000 used, and

this year it is estimated $490,000. Can you explain the decrease?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is to do with the Port Union plant as well, in

regard to a lower than anticipated operating and electrical cost for the water

treatment plant. The plant is not operational, so the volumes are not going

through. So you have a decrease there.

Then we have some reprofiling, as I said before. There is a reduction measure

of about $100,000. We right sized the budget there, but it is mainly to do with

the Port Union fish plant being non-operational.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Can I ask why? If it is non-operational and it is

budgeted this year at $490,000, how can you budget $490,000 if it is not

operational?

MR. O'BRIEN: Because it is an industrial water supply system, which is

completely different than the normal systems that you would have in a normal

town. We have to keep it operational and we have to make some changes there to

bring it to a town standard before we actually pass it over to the community to

operate it themselves. Normally, as you know, the community is responsible for

operating their own systems, but in this case here it is a completely different

system than the norm.

MR. JOYCE: So eventually it will be turned over to the town?

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Section 2.3.03 Urban and Rural Planning, Salaries, there is a decrease there

of almost $100,000?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a reprofiling of a position, a computer programmer

to Engineering Services. There is a planned savings of $56,000 there as well,

but we did not need the position so we reprofiled it over to Engineering

Services where we needed it most.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Transportation and Communications, it went up from $18,000 to $40,000, back

down to $18,000. Can you explain the increase?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is due to the higher number of appeals on the appeal

boards. You must remember, last year before we got to it we were stalled for a

little while in regard to appointing the appeal boards. So, we finally have

those completely functional with everybody appointed. Now the appeals are going

forward. We had a savings last year but we anticipate having the same amount in

this year's Estimates as compared to the budget last year.

MR. JOYCE: Are all the appeal boards now up and running?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: I appeared in front of one there about three weeks ago. It

took a while but about a month ago, I should say. So they are all up and

running now?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, all up and running. There is a

schedule for this fiscal

year in regard to hearing of appeals. There are a fair number out here in the

east, because this is where the growth is and the population is, but they have

been scheduled by calendar dates for each and every one of the boards. Now the

people who have appeals in front of those particular boards know where the

schedule is and when they are meeting. Then they can see progress.

MR. JOYCE: Purchased Services, there is the budgeted, then it was

increased to $30,000, and it is back to its normal budget. Could you just

explain that for a minute?

MR. O'BRIEN: That has to do with the higher than anticipated board member

fees and consultant costs in regard to the protected road zoning amendments. We

are getting a fair number of them now these days, as well, as the Province

grows. People are looking for amendments to the protected road zoning and other

types of amendments.

MR. JOYCE: I am going to go to Assistance and Infrastructure, 3.1.01. I

will go to

MR. O'BRIEN: Which one are you gone to?

MR. JOYCE: In 3.1.01, Financial Assistance.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: We see a decrease there in the Grants and Subsidies. Can you

explain how much a decrease and why the decrease?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a decrease in amount. It is going to decrease over

the years because it is amortized over.

As you know, in 2008 we moved from a loan basis to a cash base in regard to

supporting our municipalities under the cost-shared ratios. We have a current

balance, in regard to the Newfoundland and Labrador Municipal Financing

Corporation, but we are paying that out over a period of time. You have a

decrease in principle, so then you are going to see a decrease in regard to the

payout as well over time. As a matter of fact, over a period of time it will go

down to zero.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. That is not increasing. Is it because of the 90-10 ratio

that it may need dropping?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is because we are on a cash basis.

MR. JOYCE: Cash basis.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, so that will become obsolete in a period of time. It

does not really function in that way any more.

MR. JOYCE: In 3.1.03, Municipal Operating Grants.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: You can see in Grants and Subsidies there is a decrease of

almost $1.1 million. Can you explain why that is?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, okay. We will go to the 2012-2013 Budget first. The

amount there is $17,850,000. We actually paid out $22.45 million in regard to

those Municipal Operating Grants last year.

You must remember that municipalities govern themselves on a calendar year,

not a fiscal year. The $4.6 million was paid out prior to the end of our fiscal

year and then the $17,850,000 was paid out after the fiscal year, April 1.

Then when you take it into account, the 2013-2014 Estimates, the $16,020,000

is the amount that we will pay out in this current fiscal year to municipalities

of populations under 11,000. You have to remember that there is a savings there

because we are not paying the over 11,000 in Municipal Operating Grants. We

replaced it with a $25 million capital fund.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

In actual fact, what you are saying is that if it is $22 million paid, some

municipalities or all municipalities are on a different calendar year than the

Department of Municipal Affairs or the government?

MR. O'BRIEN: Say that again to me.

MR. JOYCE: The municipalities are on a different calendar year?

MR. O'BRIEN: They are. They are on a calendar year, not on a fiscal year.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. You mentioned $22 million was paid out and that was on

the calendar year or the fiscal year?

MR. O'BRIEN: It was $22 million, but you always have to remember, I am

operating on a fiscal year. We paid out $4.6 million of that Municipal Operating

Grant fund in the previous fiscal year. Then we paid out $17.85 million in the

next fiscal year. Then the $16,020,000 will be paid out of this fiscal year, but

the decrease is just that we removed the over 11,000 population communities, and

that is the amount needed to support the rest of the communities.

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Next, Minister, 3.1.04, Special Assistance, there you

have Professional Services. The budget was $375,000 but there was only $20,000

used. Why was that budgeted for $375,000 and only $20,000 used?

MR. O'BRIEN: That $375,000 reflects the commitment we had made to the

Cougar Memorial Fund. We moved that money, $354,000 of that out to the Heritage

Foundation. We have consulted with the families and that piece is over. We have

a report from the consultant and now we have moved that money out to the

Heritage Foundation because they are the right group to go forward with an

actual design of whatever we are going to place in memory of those people who

lost their lives in that tragedy.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any anticipated date?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, it is up to the Heritage Foundation really. We have

encouraged the families of the people who lost their lives in that tragedy to

provide feedback, so hopefully within the next year or so.

You must remember it took a number of years to establish the Ocean Ranger

Memorial, too. That is not something that I believe you should be rushing. I do

not believe you should be rushing to one conclusion or an opinion of one

particular family, or one particular person. I think you would have to look at

it as a whole. Some of these people are as far away as BC, Scotland, wherever it

may be. It is process that we have to go through, and you have to be really

cognizant to the sensitivity of the issue as well.

MR. JOYCE: Is the department out of it now once the funds were

transferred?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is out to the Heritage Foundation. We have nothing to do

with it now.

MR. JOYCE: So, the Heritage Foundation is the ones dealing with the

families.

MR. O'BRIEN: They are the ones who are going to deal with it now. We are

up to design now and what it is going to look like.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie.

George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, having to do with that section, 3.1.04, Special Assistance,

maybe a little bit more of an explanation here as regards to the difference in

the line items, $2,004,800 total in Special Assistance, down to $1.2 million.

That $1.2 million would be? Can you give us an explanation as regards to why

that number is down? Is that part of that particular program?

MR. O'BRIEN: Really, it is a decrease of $1.4 million. As you must

remember, you have to add up the $354,000 with the $20,700 above, then that

gives you the real number. So it is down by about $1.4 million approximately.

That is a cost savings we identified in the Budget process that we could deal

with. That is the reason it is down to $1.2 million.

As well, you never know where the Special Assistance is going to pay out. The

simple reason is that you cannot anticipate what is going to happen in

municipalities at any given time and how you are going to support them. Looking

at past history, $1.2 million, we will deal with that because a lot of the

things we deal with, with municipalities, we can put over to Municipal Capital

Works as well, so we have that avenue.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect.

Back up to the top of this page, 3.1.01, Municipal Debt Servicing, I noticed

the amount is down greatly from last year. Are we still on track for 2020?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we are. That is the what is the word I am trying to

think on?

OFFICIAL: (Inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: No, there are two parts to it. We are out to the bonding.

OFFICIAL: Direct debt.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, direct debt is on track for 2020.

MR. MURPHY: So we are not seeing well, I guess we are not hearing any

in this particular case. The number is down here. How are communities doing with

it?

MR. O'BRIEN: Actually, communities have nothing to do with this, right?

MR. MURPHY: Yes, but I am just wondering as a bit of a sideline to this.

When it comes to communities and the acquiring of funds, if you will, and the

paying off of their own debt, obviously government is retiring some debt on

their own. Are you hearing anything from communities, any difficulties?

MR. O'BRIEN: No. I want to be very clear in regard to this heading. This

is purely an all-provincial debt.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: This is our amount that we actually provided to

municipalities. Right now, we deal on a cash basis and a cash basis only. So if

I have a commitment authority of $130 million, well, then I cash base $130

million out the door to municipalities. They actually go to the banks and borrow

their money, or their portion of it. Municipalities have nothing to do with this

payout right here.

MR. MURPHY: No.

MR. O'BRIEN: In regard to their debt service ratios, I keep a close eye

on debt service ratios in each and every municipality in the Province. When I

was assigned Municipal Affairs, I had some municipalities with a debt service

ratio of 40 per cent, even 60 per cent. Most now are down below the 22 per cent

mark.

We have some down in the single digits, and we have some most in the teens,

which is exactly where you would want your municipality when it comes down to

debt service ratios. So they are well able to borrow when they have to in regard

to any of the municipal capital works and the projects they want to take on. We

have municipalities right now very strong as compared to where they used to be a

decade ago.

MR. MURPHY: Perfect. Okay.

Coming down to another line item, over to

section 4.1.01, Fire and Emergency

Services; last year you said the report was being reviewed, you were doing a

review on that. We know the department is still on track for basic 911 services

throughout the Province by 2014.

I am just wondering if you can give us an update on that. Particularly when

it comes to how municipalities are dealing with civic numbering, and I guess how

your department is dealing with civic numbering, is there any update on it?

MR. O'BRIEN: We have $750,000 earmarked for that particular

implementation right now in this year's budget. We are not at the point yet in

regard to civic addressing or whatnot.

In that $750,000, there are monies there available to us to hire consultants

with expertise in regard to any of the challenges we may or may not have under

the 911 implementation. Certainly there are areas, and we have recognized areas

in the Province that there will be challenges in regard to civic addressing. The

consultant will engage with municipalities as we move forward and address that

issue.

As well, you must remember, parallel to that we are going to also engage in

regard to enhanced 911 as well. We are not going to have that ready by the

target date because we are doing one, and one after the other, but the enhanced

process will address some of those issues with regard to civic addressing in the

future as well, from a technology point of view.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, perfect.

Down to 4.1.02 in Fire Services, Salaries from $649,400 to this year's

revised, $765,400, this year budgeted for $558,100.

MR. O'BRIEN: I have lost you.

CHAIR: Subhead 4.1.02, Minister.

MR. O'BRIEN: I have the wrong page.

The increase is reflective of $116,000 that we had to pay out for retirement

payouts two employees. We had Fred Hollett retire, along with a director

retire. That is the reflection of that. As well, the $558,100 would reflect a

lower salary scale from a start position.

MR. MURPHY: Are you going to miss Fred?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. I have seen Fred a few times since then.

MR. MURPHY: He is a good fellow, I have to say.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, absolutely.

MR. MURPHY: Down to 4.1.02.10, Grants and Subsidies, $626,500 down to

$506,500.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is just a reduction measure that we participated in with

regard to this year's budget. That would be in the supply of equipment.

MR. MURPHY: When you say equipment here for that particular line item,

can you specify what kind of equipment we could be shorting ourselves with?

MR. O'BRIEN: We support our fire halls with things such as cost-sharing

bunker suits and whatnot. We have had significant investments over the last five

years in that. We have certainly addressed a lot of issues out there today. I am

not saying that we do not have equipment rotates to a standard, so we can live

with $120,000 decrease. It is not a whole lot really, but in regard to our

overall budget and the support that we give our fire halls, we have invested

heavily so we can absorb that decrease this year.

MR. MURPHY: Do you anticipate any shortfalls or anything in the various

departments? Do you think that we are going to be short-changing ourselves with

$120,000 cut there?

MR. O'BRIEN: Say that to me again, George.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering that seems to be a substantial amount

from grants and subsidies. I know that you have been doing an awful lot of

equipment replacing and turnover, that sort of thing. I am just wondering, are

we going to be spiting ourselves

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is time to sit back. We have done significant

investments over the last four or five years. We bought a lot of bunker suits, a

lot of BA systems and that kind of stuff, and continue to do it. We are

continually assessing fire halls. Our people are out there looking at their

equipment and updating our files down in Fire Services to support me as the

minister responsible.

Right now, after the significant investments that we have made in the past,

the $120,000 reduction, we can live with that for now. Once those assessments

are done and get a clearer picture in regard to regionalization and fire halls

coming together as well that is out there, that we will have a look at that when

the time comes. Right now the $120,000 is not a huge amount.

MR. MURPHY: Okay. All right, we will keep an eye.

Section 4.1.04, Joint Emergency Preparedness Projects, this

section I am

looking at it, the appropriations for the Budget for 2012-2013 were $106,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Down to $43,500 for this year, but nothing appropriated for

this year for Grants and Subsidies. Why is that?

MR. O'BRIEN: It is not our program; it is actually a federal program

MR. MURPHY: It is a federal program?

MR. O'BRIEN: that we just had administered for the feds. They had a

program that they cost-shared 50-50, equipment purchases by municipalities,

their fire halls or whatever. That ended March 31 of this year.

MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering if your department, having to do with

that, it has to do with enhancing the national emergency response capability

are the feds shirking a responsibility here when it comes to emergency

preparedness in Newfoundland and Labrador.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, I do not think so. They realize that we as a Province

have taken the opportunity to invest in our fire halls. Their system was based

on a 50-50 share with no provincial participation. I will just speak for myself

in regard to Newfoundland and Labrador; we invest on the cost-share ratios that

we have had that, really, a lot of the fire halls out there did not avail of

this program.

The feds take fire emergency preparedness very serious. I believe they

supported us in Igor. As a matter of fact, they supported us very well in Igor

in regard to getting our documentation through the system and getting payments

into the Province. I do not think they are shirking that responsibility

whatsoever; it is just that they are re-profiling their dollars into better

areas of investment.

CHAIR: Thank you, George. I am going to hold your thought there, if you

would. I am going to turn it back to Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I go to 3.1.05, Financial Assistance for Community Enhancement.

MR. O'BRIEN: Subhead 3.1.05.

MR. JOYCE: Grants and Subsidies, 10.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: There was an increase this year in the Community Enhancement

Program. Did you see a need for it across the Province?

MR. O'BRIEN: It varies from year to year. Back in 2009-2010 I think we

invested $10.5 million in regard to Community Enhancement Programs. In

2010-2011, we invested $9.1 million. The next year after that, we invested $9.3

million.

What this reflects actually is a lesser of a need than in previous years.

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians are finding work elsewhere. They do not want to

be on EI. They are taking the opportunities that are out there in Newfoundland

and Labrador, so you see a smaller amount actually paid out.

When you look at that number, really, it is an increase, but in my mind it is

actually a decrease. As you know, we had two programs not two programs, but we

have two thresholds. We put out one round at first just to test the market

because there is no scientific data out there in regard to who needs hours and

who does not. There is nobody keeping track of that, but when you put out the

first round it sparks the interest and the calls. From the MHAs, including

yourself, we get a good picture of exactly what is needed.

This year past, we only see the need of a little over $5 million. We will

keep that number now as a rightsizing and just see exactly what happens this

year and the upcoming year.

MR. JOYCE: This is not talking negative about the program because I know

some great work has been with the program. I said it publicly and I said it to

you privately.

Is there any way and I am explaining some of the problems you run into as

an MHA. What I usually do is get municipalities to have a list of people who

need work so you have a good idea. By the time you get the first one and, say,

some project is worth $30,000 and you only give them $10,000, they cannot get it

ramped up and get it completed by the end of March.

One good example is the breakwater that they did out in Lark Harbour. They

did tremendous work, but by the time they got the second funding it was too late

in the year and the weather was too bad to do it, yet they still had the workers

who could have done it.

Is there any way to look at that? Because it is a good program, a lot of good

work; I will be the first to admit. Is there any way that we can

MR. O'BRIEN: I am cognizant of that as well because I have gone out and

viewed some of the projects that have been completed under the Community

Enhancement Program. They are actually really good projects. There are some good

ones.

I guess there is a mindset out there, times in the past, that these

particular programs just enabled people to stand on the shovel and collect

unemployment afterwards, but that is absolutely not true. There is a value to

this program for the community and then there is a value to the person working,

but there also is a challenge because the CEP program is not a job creation

program.

You have to hold it to make sure that people avail of the work that is out

there, and they should. That is number one. In regard to CEP, most of the people

who avail of that particular program usually come from the fishing industry,

plants, whatever it may be, in rural Newfoundland and Labrador. You know how the

season fluctuates there as well, so you hold it and just see exactly and get a

clear picture before you put it out.

I am cognizant of that in regard to the project, the climate that we live in

as well, so we try to get it out as quickly as we can. We had it out a little

bit earlier this year than we did last year. We actually accomplished a little

but I would like to get it out earlier, I will be quite honest with you,

especially when you have projects such as the one you just referenced.

I would encourage any of the MHAs, regardless, if they have a project that is

climate sensitive, well then come to me personally and I will see what I can do.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I will just bring this up, and I agree with the

criteria, but some people need this year with the exemption of 420, they

needed 420 hours. I agree you have to have some rules in place; I have no

problem with that.

Is there another way for the appeals mechanism, because this year it was only

if it was medical? I know one or two cases that I had, where people were just in

dire straits, through no fault of their own, and then they did not meet the

criteria. I understand the need for the rules. I have no problem with that.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, it is hard to open up that door without a floodgate

because I will go back to years past, that it was a job creation program. People

just lived that system, and that is not what it was meant to be. If you have

some issues in regard to people who have unique issues, well, again, come to me

personally. I cannot make you any promises here in the House of Assembly but I

will try to do what I possibly can.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Just a last comment on that before I move on. I know he is not here now, but

would you pass on to Ron Murphy that the work that he does

MR. O'BRIEN: I will. We have great staff there.

MR. JOYCE: - because I know he must be hounded. I know he tries to

accommodate a lot of people and do whatever he can. So just pass that on to Ron

from me personally, that I know the work that he does.

MR. O'BRIEN: I definitely will.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 3.2.01, Municipal Infrastructure, Professional

Services 05. It was budgeted for $500,000, there was $250,000 used, and $275,000

this year. Can you explain why it was budgeted and very little or half of it

used?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. That is mainly where we are advertising, tendering and

whatnot. We do that more efficiently these days. So we saved that amount of

money in this fiscal year. We anticipate that the $275,000 in this year's

Estimates will be enough to deal with that issue. We just do it more

efficiently.

MR. JOYCE: The same thing with Purchased Services, it was budgeted

$33,500, down to $10,000, and it is back to $33,500 again.

MR. O'BRIEN: Again, in equipment rentals and that kind of thing. That

fluctuates from year to year.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies, in the Budget there was $97 million, it went down, the

revised was $75 million and now it is back up to $111 million.

MR. O'BRIEN: That it right. The decrease reflects getting the money out

the door in regard to getting all of the necessary work done. We work, as you

know, each and every one of the communities that have projects have consultants

who manage the projects for them. Sometimes there are issues surrounding that

process, to the point that they get the project ready for tender. They might

have to address issues with unanticipated overruns, or whatever it may be. They

may have to come back to me to increase the amount, whatever it is, just

reflected in that one issue.

In this calendar year, we anticipated getting about $97 million of work out

there, but we succeeded in getting about $75 million out. That is where it is

mostly, in regard to I have to say, since 2010 we worked closely. I respect

all of the consulting engineers in Newfoundland and Labrador, but I have been

straightforward with them as well.

We will challenge them on their work and their fees because I want to get as

much value from that $97 million as I possibly can for the municipalities that I

am the minister for. So, that in turn slows the process a little bit, but it

does save not government money, because that is my commitment authority and

that is the cash flow I have in regard to the projects going forward, but it

does add value to the municipality. Every dollar that I save, really, is saved

to them.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, 3.2.02, Federal/Provincial Infrastructure Programs.

We see here Grants and Subsidies, the budget last year was $52 million, the

revised was $33 million, and it is back up to $39 million. Can you explain the

difference there? Was the money not spent, or is it a carryover or

MR. O'BRIEN: No, the same thing. You must remember the Building Canada

Fund now is winding down. It was a 2008-2013 Budget. The projects have to be

completed by 2015, with all invoicing in by 2016.

As you know as well, the federal government just brought down their budget

and they have a new Building Canada Fund. That amount has been announced, but it

has not been actioned yet. So you are going to see a decrease, as a matter of

fact, over next year's budget. Depending on how the present federal budget kicks

in, you will see that go down because these projects are coming to fruition.

In regard to the difference between the $52 million and the $33 million, that

reflects an anticipated expenditure cash flow decrease under the CSIF Building

Canada infrastructure program. In other words, we have a number of projects out

there, complicated projects. We have a couple out in Corner Brook, and we have

two or three here in the City of St. John's. We have one in Goose Bay, I

believe, if I remember right.

They are all going through different portions of the process. They just have

not been, so we did not pump the money out because they are not ready to go to

tender yet in regard to those projects. So you have not seen the cash flow.

MR. JOYCE: Oh, I can keep going.

CHAIR: George.

MR. MURPHY: I can understand his enthusiasm.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to 4.1.03. We were talking about Emergency Services.

MR. O'BRIEN: 4.1.03?

MR. MURPHY: 4.1.03.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: In the Salaries line, from the budgeted last year, $403,600,

it was revised down to $344,100, but it is up again this year to $693,300.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: If we can get an explanation.

MR. O'BRIEN: Recruitment delays in regard to a decrease of $59,500

between one and the other, $403,600 and $344,100. Then there is an increase of

$289,700, which reflects an additional salary funding for the E-911, which is

offset by a salary step increase, too. That is all to do with the implementation

of 911.

MR. MURPHY: So we have an increase staffing, obviously, who are going to

be working on that.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, absolutely.

MR. MURPHY: Good.

That obviously has to do also with the Property, Furnishings and Equipment,

that acquisition there.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: Up to Professional Services, $261,600 against $19,400.

MR. O'BRIEN: It is the same, the increase in regard to consultant fees

for E-911 as well.

MR. MURPHY: Do we know who these consultants are?

MR. O'BRIEN: Not yet, I do not think. No, we do not. An RFP has been

posted, so there will be a selection and a selection process will incur.

MR. MURPHY: So we can get a list of those when they are in line, of

course, with the program?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Total for Emergency Services obviously that number is

standing out, of course, because of the changes in that particular listing.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. MURPHY: I wanted to come over as well to the municipal ticket pilot

program to ask you for a bit of an update on the municipal ticketing program. We

had a couple of concerns about the percentage the Province is charging to

administer it.

Have you heard anything back from municipalities as regards the dollar

amounts and as regards what is being charged in the processing of tickets?

MR. O'BRIEN: In regard to ticketing and the ability to ticket?

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Really, that sits with the Department of Justice and down

with the courts in regard to that process. I would not be able to comment in

regard to how many tickets they have issued and the amounts that have been

collected because we do not really track that piece as such. It lies down at the

courts, really.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, I will make a note and pass that on when the Justice

Estimates come through.

We carry on to solid waste management and recycling. In your opening remarks

last year, you said that at the end of the 2013 fiscal year, two-thirds of the

people of Newfoundland and Labrador would be tied into the program.

Can you give us an update as regards to that particular program when it comes to

solid waste management?

MR. O'BRIEN: Solid waste management is actually moving very well in the

Province. As a matter of fact, it is faster than anticipated. As a matter of

fact, I will say this, as well, for the record: In 2010, I was advised that I

would have challenges there in regard to the implementation of that particular

strategy. What I will say is that municipalities and the people of the Province

have certainly bought into the implementation, the strategy itself, and the

value of it in regard to the future of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Robin Hood Bay, as you know, is up and running quite well in all aspects. The

only piece there that we have to address and work with the particular board is

composting. They will move that forward. That is an ever-evolving technology. I

have impressed on each and every one of the boards to make sure that they look

at all the technologies because the technology is changing. There are a lot of

cost savings there that could be had.

Out in Central, the Central facility is up and running. I am not sure if you

have been there. It is an absolutely state-of-the-art facility. You would not

believe that it is an actual waste management destination. They are moving now

this year in regard to their material recovery facility. We are doing a lot of

work with them in regard to recycling.

Waste on the West Coast is moving forward finally. We had some great work

done with the committee and the chair. We will be moving to a board structure

pretty soon over the next couple of months or so. We have money in the Budget to

address transfer stations and public drop-offs over on the West Coast that have

to be developed. One will be in the transfer station in the Wild Cove area of

Corner Brook, another one over in Bay St. George, another one I think I just

cannot remember now to be honest with you where they all are. There are several

of them and public drop-offs as well. They will be developed. We have the money

in the actual budget for that.

As I said, we have the money in the budget in regard to the Central waste and

then we have a fair bit of money for dump closures for Central now that they are

up and running. We will be closing a lot of dumps I think, somewhere around

eighteen or so in Central. There are twelve or so that have to be

environmentally closed that is in Eastern. Then as well we will be

reconsolidating some dumps over on the West Coast. Configurations such as areas

or regions that might have three or four dumps in a region now will go down to

one dump until we get the public drop-offs and the transfer stations in place,

and then start transporting into Central.

As well, there is as fair bit of work going on inside the department of

looking at various technologies and solutions for some of our remote areas such

as the South Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador, as well as we have some money

to do some work in Southern Labrador, some work in Goose Bay, and some good work

over in Lab West. We have around $4 million invested in Lab West now; we will

probably spend another million or so in cleaning up their incinerator site that

we closed.

So there is a lot of work going on in waste management, believe me. It is

good money that we have invested. Municipalities, again, and the people of the

Province bought in to waste management and the value for our future.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you for that.

I am just wondering as well, when it comes to waste management and I know

there have been several concerns about the cost of transportation particularly

when it comes to waste that is coming into Central. Any plans on the department

to help address some of these costs of transporting waste?

MR. O'BRIEN: I will have to say it this way; you are living in the past

in regard to the concerns for transportation. The actual numbers are moot; they

are cost-neutral. So it does not cost as a matter of fact, transportation cost

is really a very small amount as compared to the overall cost of managing waste.

So, when you look at if you put it in a pie, it is a very small. When you

take that out and have a look at it, and the consultant we got a report in

regard to that and you have a look at it in regard to the real cost of

transporting as compared to establishing a big site over on the West Coast, the

decision was clear that it was cost-neutral, probably a little bit of a savings,

to transport as compared to establishing a site.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: So that is gone.

MR. MURPHY: Subhead 4.1.05, Disaster Assistance, under Fire and Emergency

Services Agency. Line 01, Salaries, they were $350,000, down to $280,000, back

up again to $285,000. I am just wondering: Did we lose a position here as

regards to Disaster Assistance?

MR. O'BRIEN: We had an engineering tech that worked over in Fire and

Emergency Services. They worked in regard to some of the disasters, Igor or

whatever. There is a lot of work to be done there, in regard to engineering and

consulting and advising communities and whatnot; but when we had a real look at

it, you do not know when you are going to have an Igor; you do not know today or

tomorrow, and we felt that was better off being in the engineering division here

at Municipal Affairs. So we support now that particular issue from our

engineering department where all of our engineers are. We have eliminated that

position over in Fire Services.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

CHAIR: George, I will come back to you.

MR. MURPHY: All right.

CHAIR: Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Thank you, again.

Minister, we will have a discussion later about the waste management on the

West Coast and the cost of transportation, because I think somewhere along the

line yourself or an official should meet with the municipalities that have grave

concerns about it.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is fine. We will meet with them, but the numbers are

clear. I can tell you they are clear. They might have their concerns or

whatever, but anyway we will address the issues.

MR. JOYCE: The numbers might be clear, but the part that is not clear to

the people is that the initial capital cost is the provincial side. When you put

that into the full transportation it is, but for Central and Eastern the capital

cost will be borne by the Province.

What is happening out on the West Coast, they are saying if we settle up,

here is what it is going to cost to settle up but that cost is not supposed to

be included. It is being included on the West Coast but it is not being included

for the capital cost because the transportation out in Central the provincial

government set up.

MR. O'BRIEN: You cannot compare it like that. You have to compare

operational costs to transportation costs, is where a lot (inaudible).

MR. JOYCE: Yes, and you could, but there is a big discrepancy.

MR. O'BRIEN: Absolutely. Then when you compare the operational costs to

the operational cost of a big facility, such as Robin Hood Bay or Central, and

then compare it to the transportation cost, it is cost neutral.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. Well, there are discrepancies on that I can assure you.

MR. O'BRIEN: You cannot include capital in operational costs. You cannot

do it.

MR. JOYCE: I can assure you, there are discrepancies.

MR. O'BRIEN: A lot of people make the mistake of doing that but it gives

a distorted view of the actual issue.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, but there is a lot of discrepancy on that, and we will

disagree on that one.

MR. O'BRIEN: Bring them all in, I will meet with them.

MR. JOYCE: Actually, you were going to go out and meet with the Great

Humber Joint Council and the officials.

MR. O'BRIEN: I will, yes.

MR. JOYCE: The Gas Tax Program, 3.2.03.

MR. O'BRIEN: 3.2.03?

MR. JOYCE: Yes. Salaries, there is a little increase in the budget to

revised. It is up to $370,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any

MR. O'BRIEN: As you know, the Gas Tax Program is a fed program that we

just administer.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Really, the positions that are attached to the Gas Tax

Program are contractual type positions. As you know, in this year's Budget the

feds have insured municipalities across the country that the Gas Tax Program now

is a permanent program.

This increase reflects a higher than anticipated compliance type of process

that we go through. We have a lot of small municipalities in Newfoundland and

Labrador that we have to engage in order for them to understand the federal

regulations and specifications surrounding what they can or cannot use gas tax

for. So that $120,000 anticipates some increased efforts to bring municipalities

into compliance and also identify projects that they are eligible for under the

Gas Tax Program.

MR. JOYCE: So the regulations are set by the federal government. Am I

correct on that?

MR. O'BRIEN: That is correct.

MR. JOYCE: It is administered by the Province.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: I will give you a situation that just came to my attention out

in the Town of York Harbour. Now, I do not know who is the best to deal with

this because I will be writing, probably yourself later. Is that they went out

and did a project under the gas tax. They went through the process with the

department. They put it out on tender and got it done, the work was done, no

problem. Then they were told that the instalments would not come; three

instalments instead of the money upfront. They assumed they would get the money

for the tender upfront but it is done in three instalments?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, that is the only way we can administer it. We cannot

just pay out the money upfront in regard to before the tender, right.

MR. JOYCE: No, no, the work is complete.

MR. O'BRIEN: The work is complete and it came out in three installments.

I would think that would lie in regard to some of the work that we have to do

with the consultants. Remember now, it is a community project but the

consultants are hired to administer it.

MR. JOYCE: Who is the best person to write on that because the work is

complete?

MR. O'BRIEN: All you have to do is just give me the details of it. I will

go to my engineering department and I will find out exactly where it is.

MR. JOYCE: Their concern is that they have to go through the bank and

borrow the money to pay off the tender because it is already done, the work is

complete.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, I got you. I am just

MR. JOYCE: I will write you on it because I know I am getting you on the

blind on it, so I will just write you.

MR. O'BRIEN: No, I hear you. I have an idea where the problem is, believe

me.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

Minister, I am going to go to another one. I am sure you heard me talk about

it, 4.1.06, Fire Protection Infrastructure.

MR. O'BRIEN: What is it again, 4.1.06?

MR. JOYCE: Yes, 4.1.06, Grants and Subsidies, $1.7 million. What is that

mainly used for?

MR. O'BRIEN: That amount is used for vehicle purchases in the Province,

which we have about 280 fire halls, sixty units that we have to replace.

As well, we are looking at a new spec in regard to some of the apparatuses

that might be needed in the Province. Sometimes a $250,000 pumper that you see

on the streets of Gander may very well not be the appropriate vehicle, and I am

only going to use this loosely here now, for Cox's Cove. It may be something

else. We have done a lot of work in Fire Services in regard to speccing' a

number of apparatuses that could address the issue in providing that service to

the residents of a particular community at a much lesser cost than $250,000 or

$280,000.

MR. JOYCE: How many trucks, say, are you anticipating this year? I know

you cannot really do it.

MR. O'BRIEN: It depends on the spec. I would think at least eight, but it

certainly depends on the spec and the type of vehicle we are replacing.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I know you are looking at regionalization, but what

can someone like Cox's Cove do to promote? I can give you an example.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a loaded question.

MR. JOYCE: I spoke to the firemen's ball Saturday night

MR. O'BRIEN: Get a good MHA.

MR. JOYCE: What can they do? I spoke to the firemen's ball Saturday night

and they cannot even get a tube replaced because the truck is so old. It is an

As I mentioned to you on several occasions, regionalization is not an option

because of the distance they are from. They are in desperate need. I know I

mentioned it before, before you were minister, by the way, that there was a

commitment made by the former MHA to have a truck and whatever happened.

What can they do? To me, it is a grave concern for their safety because the

truck now is getting to the point where it is inoperable and there is no one

else they can call on. It is so far away and they have been looking at the

geography. There is no one else they can call upon.

What else can they do? Is there any way they can get another assessment done

of their

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not think there is any need of another assessment for

Cox's Cove because I am quite aware of the issue, not only from you but from the

community itself, as well.

Regardless of what may or may not be promised in the past, I will be sitting

down over the next little while and I will be having a look at all the fire

halls that are out there in regard to the challenges they have, the equipment

they have, the age of the truck, and well noted in regard to that particular

vehicle, where they have to get parts for it, cannot get parts for it, and that

kind of thing.

Some people believe that you can just stick, say, a pumper into a particular

fire hall. If they are not trained in a certain way in regard to offensive as

compared to defensive firefighting, there may not be a need for that particular

it might not be the right truck for the right fire hall. I take all that stuff

into account when I go down through the list to make sure that we are actually

giving the particular fire hall the right piece of equipment that they can use.

MR. JOYCE: The one thing I would do if at all possible if you are ever

out on the West Coast is to take a drive out and meet with the fire chief. They

have a wait-list for the fire department and they have forty-four firettes.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is fabulous.

MR. JOYCE: It is a great community, but it is just a fire truck. I spoke

to you and I know you are very aware of their concerns and going to look at the

concerns. After Saturday night when I spoke to them, the firemen, they cannot

even get a tube. It is getting to a state of desperation for the town.

MR. O'BRIEN: Well noted, yes.

CHAIR: Thank you, Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

CHAIR: George.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to

section 4.1.05 again, under Disaster Assistance.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. MURPHY: Line 05, Professional Services of $700,000. There was nothing

appropriated in the year previous, nothing appropriated for this year. How come?

MR. O'BRIEN: It was all to do with Igor, so we do not need it.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: She is done. We just have about probably twenty claims now.

We prioritized all the work that needed to be done in regard to municipal

infrastructure. Now we are down to damage to some walking trails and whatever it

may be. We do not need that any more.

MR. MURPHY: Okay, so the next line below that, line 06, Purchased

Services, of $3,180,000.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, those are contractor services that we do not need any

more.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: All to do with Igor.

MR. MURPHY: All right, so that is to finish up that section. There is

nothing else I do not think that I had as regards to what is directly inside the

book. I just wanted to get clarification on some of the things that you

mentioned earlier. Maybe you can help me out as regards to which

section they

would actually be covered for under line by line items.

I was going to ask you, we were just talking a little bit about fire

equipment and retention, that sort of thing, I am wondering about monies that

would have been appropriated towards firefighter training, that sort of thing,

their travel costs, for example, when it comes to training. I wonder if you

could give us a little bit of a debrief on that as regards to some of the

challenges some of the municipalities are facing out there. I know that

sometimes there is a strong up-front cost in that.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, we have a budget in training and support for fire halls

and municipalities to enable them to send a contingent, I suppose, of volunteer

firefighters to each and every training opportunity that we hold across the

Province. We hold them in different regions at different times.

We have been very cognizant to the rural aspect of Newfoundland and Labrador

and the way people actually work, to make sure that they are available to take

and partake of that training. We had one in Grand Falls-Windsor only recently.

We are planning one down in the Marystown area and the Burin Peninsula as well.

Then, we have them in here, up in CBS and wherever, and we will continue to do

that.

Part of the supports that we provide is an offset to costs in accommodations

and that kind of thing. We will continue to do that, because I, and I know

government, and I am sure everybody here in the House of Assembly certainly

values our volunteer firefighters and the services they provide to the Province.

We have to recognize that it is mainly all volunteers. We have a few paid fire

services across the Province, here in the City of St. John's and whatnot, but

the main portion of our firefighters are volunteers. So we support them and

continue to support them.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about the attempts by government. I do not

know if there have been any in the past. I know that there was a program run

through the university to attract women into firefighting. I am wondering about

the retention of some of these firefighters.

Is government talking about the possibility of, for example, tax credits,

this sort of thing, as regards to the possible retention of firefighters, to the

volunteer role that they have? They are an integral role; a lot of these guys

and girls, of course, do not get paid for what they do

MR. O'BRIEN: We piggybacked on the federal program a couple of years ago.

So that is in place. There are certain guidelines surrounding the number of

hours, that kind of stuff. Whatever it is, I guess you could view it as somewhat

of a retention aspect of it.

MR. MURPHY: Incentive, I guess.

MR. O'BRIEN: Incentive, I suppose, is a better word for it, absolutely.

They should have certain things provided things to them. So we are doing that

right now, and it is my understanding that most of the fire halls out there and

most of the volunteer firefighters have availed of it. It means about $1,000 in

their pocket over a particular year, depending on their gross salary, that kind

of stuff. It varies from one person to another, really. It is a $1,000 value

towards their income tax return.

Those are the kinds of things that we do. Province-wise, in regard to some of

the fire halls that you have in rural Newfoundland and Labrador, people work and

they have to work and they are back and forth, some of them have complements of

probably thirty, forty volunteer firefighters; but, at any given time, they may

only have like fifteen to twenty volunteer firefighters available because they

are going elsewhere for work, that kind of stuff.

We encourage them to have as many full contingents of volunteers in their

hall. We try to gear our training to make sure that we capture each and every

one of them at some point in time. We are doing all that kind of thing to retain

our volunteer firefighters and show them that we value them as an intricate part

of their communities.

MR. MURPHY: A suggestion to government I do not know if they are

considering it already as regards to retention and recruitment. I am just

wondering if government might be looking at other measures with regard to

recruitment, if they are thinking about a recruitment program or any further

measures that is going to be gearing towards that.

I know, for example, in Alberta they use recruitment videos; they use that a

bit. I think it was in Gander that I saw it; they actually had a Facebook page.

Are there any resources from your department to go towards any of the fire

departments out there that they can avail of to, I guess, promote themselves in

that way?

MR. O'BRIEN: We help them in every way in regard to some of the programs.

For instance, we had a program that we partnered with the Insurance Bureau of

Canada, providing smoke alarms. One of the aspects of that yes, it is to

provide smoke alarms to homes and cabins and whatnot that do not have them. I

gave each and every one of the fire halls that participated in that program an

opportunity to go to the door and have a chat and certainly have a chat in

regard to people who might be interested in becoming a volunteer firefighter.

As well, when we provide our training or whatever it may be and all my

staff down at Fire and Emergency Services is always available for a call from a

chief, whoever it may be. Whatever support that we can give them in regard to

getting materials out there, encouraging people to volunteer for a position

within the fire hall, we will do so because we value their work.

MR. MURPHY: Thank you, Minister.

Just one more question, and it brings us back, I guess, to your

preamble on

eligible communities and relocation. Has government done any kind of an

evaluation on how many communities they think are actually going to be taking

advantage of the program? Maybe you can give us a bit of a breakdown on

MR. O'BRIEN: Impossible to do, really. The simple reason is that it is up

to the community. We will not, and I will say absolutely not, be driving

relocation anywhere in this Province any time soon. We have had a number of

inquiries from various areas one with Little Bay Islands, which you are quite

aware of.

MR. MURPHY: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: They are going to have to make a decision. It is not an easy

decision, not whatsoever, but it is a decision that they have to make and they

can only make on their own.

I would not be able to tell you and speculate in regard to what communities

may or not avail of that program now or any time in the future to be honest with

you, because I physically, mentally, cannot get into the heads of the people who

live there. They are going to have chats among themselves, they are going to

have community meetings, I guess, which I will not be attending, and they are

going to have to make decisions.

Once they make a decision in regard to having the majority of the people who

live there, then if they do have that well then I encourage them to contact my

department, we will provide them the supports and the guidance through the

system and whatnot, and then we will go through a process that will determine if

it is in the best interest of the Province and best interest of the people who

live there if they relocate.

I want to be quite clear here this morning as well that there has to be a

value to the Province as well. It is not just throw the money at it and the

people will leave. We have to have a payback to the Province over a twenty-year

amortized period. It has to be a value to the Province. We are not just about

going out there and relocating small communities in rural Newfoundland and

Labrador, not at all, absolutely not.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I have nothing else, unless, Ivan, you have one or two things?

MR. MORGAN: No.

MR. MURPHY: We are good here, I think.

CHAIR: Thank you, George.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, I am going to ask some general questions now and I

am sure some of it you may have to get back to me on it later.

First of all, when will the fire trucks be announced?

MR. O'BRIEN: The fire trucks will get announced when I make my decisions.

First, I am going to have a look at I will be quite honest with you now. I

have not had an opportunity to really have a look at my Municipal Capital Works

as well. I have been busy since January 1, believe me.

I will be having a look at that first in regard to those. They are so climate

sensitive that I want to get some projects out the door, award them and whatnot.

Once I get those Municipal Capital Works done then I will have a real good look

at the vehicle purchases that we might make in this given year. It will not be

tomorrow morning, but it will be probably over the next two or three months.

MR. JOYCE: Okay, thank you. They are asking me and like I said I would

ask.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, you assure them that they are on my radar, let us put

it that way.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, I am going to ask a question now and I know I have been at this

for a number of years because I think it is one of the most blatant wastes of

money that I have ever seen. I know the money just flows through your

department. It is Don Downer and this so-called land use planning committee out

on the West Coast. Can you tell me when that report that was supposed to be done

three years ago is ever going to be complete?

MR. O'BRIEN: The Humber Valley we have a report from the consultants in

regard to that particular plan. We received it in Municipal Affairs and we have

sent it out to all of the particular departments for their comments. We are

waiting for the final comments to come back from the various departments:

Natural Resources, Environment, whatever it may be. Tourism will have comments

in regard to that particular plan. Once I get those comments back, we will send

it back to the particular group, to that committee and then they will

MR. JOYCE: There is no committee, Minister. From my understanding, there

is no committee; there is one person.

MR. O'BRIEN: We will check before we send it back, I will make sure

there is a committee, let us put it that way.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: Anyway, we will move that back in a draft form. If they

accept that in regard to what I send back, then they will have to go to public

consultations or whatnot onto it and move it forward.

I will be the first one to say as well in regard to land use planning, it is

a long process. There are a lot of views in regard to land use planning, both

out there in the municipal sector, both out there in the private sector, and

also in regard to the various departments that we have to consult with in

government. It is a long process; it does not happen overnight.

MR. JOYCE: Can I ask you because this was asked to me on several

occasions what is the purpose of this when it is nonbinding on any

municipality? Most municipalities are not even partaking into it.

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, from my point of view, with municipalities in

Newfoundland and Labrador we are going to go through a process here now over

the next couple of years with MNL and municipalities in general, but MNL is the

main driving force and the representation you have from municipalities. We will

not only have a look at fiscal opportunities and an arrangement, but we will

also be looking at a lot of things.

From my perspective as the minister, I have to have a clearer picture in

regard to development. As development expands, so too are the pressures on

government to support that development from water and sewer or whatever it may

be. When it comes down to a land use plan, even though it might not be binding

to the municipalities, it certainly gives me a clearer picture in regard to what

I may or may not be able to do to support the municipalities that are out there.

We have to be careful in regard to uncontrolled development. We have to be

careful in regard to how we control our land and develop our land in regard to

opportunities in the future with resources or whatever it may be. It gives me a

clearer picture.

MR. JOYCE: I am not sure, Minister, if you look at the terms of reference

that a lot of this here is not even included for municipalities who are

incorporated. I know I am putting you on the spot because I know it was given.

I will ask this again. I got it last year, but it took me four or five

letters last year. I guess the deputy minister is the one. Can I get up to March

31 what was paid to Don Downer per year, wages plus expenses, for the land use

committee? I know last year it took me about seven to eight months and about

five or six letters because it was committed to at Estimates. I can get it under

Freedom of Information, but just to save the time and energy. How long would it

I know it is on the tip because it is paid on a monthly basis.

One Freedom of Information that I got from them for the land use committee,

he got paid $39,000 for the land use committee. When you look at the meetings

that were partaking, it is a lot of money for a retired professor at the

university and it is nonbinding. No one knows what is going on and there has not

been a meeting in a year.

I do not know how long it would take to get me the information up to March

31, because it is a sore issue out on the West Coast: the wages he was paid per

year, up to March 31 of this year, and the cost; he has an office set up and he

has someone part time now, and the expenses. I know under freedom of information

and I know, Minister, you were not there at the time - one of the expenses was

a seven-day conference in Niagara Falls on international land development. I

said, it does not relate to the City of Corner Brook. So, if I can get that

MR. O'BRIEN: First, I will apologize for the length of time it took, but

we had two requests: one from yourself, and one from the gentleman next to you

at the same time for the same thing. So we did a fair bit of work and we were

running them parallel to each other.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is the reason it took a little bit of time the last

time around. I apologize for that. It was not because we did not want to give it

to you, absolutely not, we just wanted to give you the right information that

you requested. We do not pay that directly. It is paid out from one of the

communities out in the region.

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay. So we have to get it back that way, but we will

endeavour to make sure you get the information you requested in a shorter length

of time than it took the pervious time.

MR. JOYCE: Is there any expected end date for this?

MR. O'BRIEN: No, it is a long process, and it is a long process. Like I

said, we are to the point now that over the next little while or so, two or

three months, I should have any of the comments from all of the departments that

have participated, then I will be sending it back out. Then it has to go to the

public consultation process and public comments and whatever it may be. Then

they come back with a finalized plan. Really, to be honest with you, I can

either accept it or I can reject it, or I can modify it at that particular time,

as the minister.

MR. JOYCE: In my opinion, if you want to talk about a job creation

program, this land planning committee is an ideal situation if you want to set

up a job creation program in my opinion.

To get back to the Western Waste Management, the same person is running that

now, who once again, in my opinion, there are much more qualified people to do

that out on the West Coast. If I can get a copy of what was paid to him to date

for this, plus the expenses that was paid to him for that also.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is not an issue. Yes, no issue.

MR. JOYCE: The other thing, Minister, are there going to be any public

meetings? I tell you what upset a lot of people on this transportation issue,

because it was a policy of this committee that there would be a subsidy. If they

are going to agree with having to go to the Central Waste Management which I

visited by the way, and is doing a great job. Ed and the group out there are

doing a great job and there is capacity for that in Central. I do not think

there is any dispute about that.

The issue was that part of the Waste Management Committee and the groups

involved, there was a contingent that there be a travel subsidy for some areas

that are beyond 100 kilometres or 200 kilometres, like say, Northern St.

Anthony, some places like that. In the cloak of the summer, with only six people

present and one or two on a teleconference, they decided: Oh, we are going to

drop this subsidy without any consultation to the municipalities that were

involved.

My question is: Are there going to be any public consultations and public

meetings? Because to date, I can assure you, there has been none. I will just

give an example of the confusion.

There are two people on the city council who are on the Waste Management

Committee who voted to scrap the subsidy. There are two councillors on the Great

Humber Joint Council who have a motion in that the subsidy should come in. Here

you have one council on two different groups. Will there be public consultation,

public meetings, or are they just going to do what the chair wishes to do?

MR. O'BRIEN: I do not mind meeting with people in regard to the

implementation of the strategy. I want to be clear with you, in regard to the

transportation subsidy, let's park that right here.

Before we actually had the consultant's report in, before Central was

established, before we had a clearer picture in regard to contracts on the East

Coast, in regard to out in Bay de Verde area and what it cost to actually ship

into Robin Hood Bay or whatever. It has always been the goal of Municipal

Affairs in regard to the cost of disposing of waste to the public of the

Province to hopefully have the same cost, or approximately the same cost per

household in the Province, give or take. You will not nail it on the head.

When you have a cost comparison of operational costs to a facility on the

West Coast to the cost of shipping, which is a very small portion of the actual

cost of disposing of waste, when you have that cost neutral, if you would then

apply a subsidy to that transportation cost, well the people of the West Coast

could very well be disposing of their waste much cheaper than anywhere else in

Newfoundland and Labrador. That is not fair to the Province.

Regardless of what was discussed in the past, what I have to do is be fair to

each and every householder, each and every person in the Province. So, once we

had a look at that and it was determined that it was cost neutral, a little bit

of a saving, a little less to ship than actually operational costs of a big

facility out in Wild Cove or wherever it may be, well then that is that piece.

I am not going to say there might not be some challenges in regard to the

outlying areas and getting to transfer stations. That is yet to be seen as we

choose the sites or whatever, but I have no problem with coming out and meeting

with anybody in regard to explaining why the transportation subsidy is really

not an option, is not needed, I should say, because it is not right. It is not

right.

MR. JOYCE: What you are saying there I will just clue up, ten seconds.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: What you are saying there, Minister, I can dispute, and a lot

of people can. I am going to tell you why.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: A lack of information on the West Coast.

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, it could be.

MR. JOYCE: I am not saying what you are saying is incorrect, definitely

not, but you can see the confusion because people on the West Coast have not

seen those reports. This is what I am saying. Whatever this committee is doing

out there, they are doing it under cloak of darkness. They are not having public

meetings. They are not giving out these reports. This is part of the problem, is

that no one understands what is happening with this waste strategy committee out

on the West Coast.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, point well taken. We will try to endeavour, from my

perspective as the minister, and my staff's perspective of Municipal Affairs, to

make sure that the right facts are communicated to the particular communities

that would be affected out on the West Coast.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

CHAIR: George, I understand you had a couple of other questions.

MR. MURPHY: Just a couple of more questions before we clue up.

I wanted to come back to by the way, we would not mind getting copies of

those reports as well, just for the record. Do we know who would be responsible

for those?

MR. O'BRIEN: In regard to

MR. MURPHY: Yourself and your (inaudible).

MR. O'BRIEN: I will give it to my deputy minister to provide for you.

MR. MURPHY: Sure, thank you very much.

Mr. Minister, I just wanted to get some quick updates as regards to some of

the regional plans ongoing. The Northeast Avalon Regional Plan, we noted last

year there was a request for members to do a significant rewrite of the

consultative process. I guess if we can get an update on the Northeast Avalon

Regional Plan, because that was due to come out again I think at the end of May,

or at the start of May. I wonder if we can get an update there. As well, the

Humber Valley Regional Plan, can we get an update on the work that is being done

in that regard?

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay, what is the last piece?

MR. MURPHY: On both regional plans, the Northeast Avalon Regional Plan

and the Humber Valley Regional Plan. I think both were getting a significant

rewrite.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay. The NEAR Plan, which is the Northeast Avalon Regional

Plan, back in the early 1970s I believe it was developed. We went through a

process of consultation with municipalities.

What I have identified through my officials and myself and I have had a

number of meetings with the particular communities out on the Northeast Avalon

that the actual process I do not think was ever clear to them on how you move

this down the road. It stalled in the initial consultation piece. It was not

even near a draft plan or a finalized plan or whatever it may be.

Recently, I have communicated a decision in regard to me as the minister that

I will do one of two things: I will sit with the particular communities involved

and I will try to clarify the process and start from where it stalled and move

it on forward; if not, I will start right from the beginning. The plan is

outdated; it does not reflect the changes that have happened on the Northeast

Avalon, especially in the recent years, the last ten years. It needs to be

updated, it needs to be rewritten really, and then reflect what we are seeing

happen in here in the Northeast Avalon.

I am not too sure if I cannot move it in regard to where it stalled back a

few years ago, get everybody on side and have them see exactly where the process

should run because they are not signing on to anything. They thought, I think,

that the initial piece of consultation was the final plan; I really believe

that, that is my own opinion. It is not not at all, absolutely not.

If we are going to start from scratch, I am not sure if there is a benefit of

starting now at this point in time with the municipal elections in the fall. You

could have a fair number of changes on municipal councils in the area,

especially in the outlying area, even here in the City of St. John's for that

matter. I may very well wait until after that election if I have to start from

scratch.

As to the Humber Valley one, we have a draft form in from the particular

committee. I sent it out as I said before to the particular departments for

their comments which are a part of the process; Natural Resources, Environment,

Tourism and whoever participates from a department point of view. We got most of

their responses back now. We are waiting on a couple of others. Then I will

consolidate that and then send it out to the particular committee for their

response and a finalization of a plan. Then, if they send in a draft final plan

and I accept it, it will go to public consultations. Again, I have to accept it

first. We will have a look at that. That is the process going through.

Again, I will say that these plans are complicated. They affect a lot of

people. They affect a lot of communities. They are not something you should be

rushing in the first place. You have to be patient with it and move it along.

There is a fair bit of work that goes into it both from the communities and the

consultants, or whatever it may be.

I will be the first one to say in regard to the NEAR Plan it has been a

challenge. As a matter of fact, it has been a challenge to clarify what stage

they were at because they were not even close to a draft plan not even close

to it. Anyway, I have had some discussions. I think they are starting to

understand the process now. I have actually made it a mandate of my own as the

minister to kick-start that and push it forward.

MR. MURPHY: Okay.

I do not think we had anything else. There is nothing else coming to mind

right now anyway.

I just wanted to say thank you to your staff again for coming out and sitting

for two-and-a-quarter hours and not having a word to say.

CHAIR: Thank you, George.

Eddie.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, I just have some more questions in general. First of all,

in part of that, for the Humber Valley planning committee, can I get a list of

members and when they were appointed?

MR. O'BRIEN: I sure will.

MR. JOYCE: I am sure it is a long-listed committee. It is a big

committee.

MR. O'BRIEN: I will endeavour to do so.

MR. JOYCE: Also, with that one for the West Coast, I really feel that the

public out on the West Coast should be notified of the process and where it is

at now. It is almost like off the radar for the last year, but I know that there

is a certain individual still doing work or getting paid to do work.

MR. O'BRIEN: Maybe I will give an update on their symposium of exactly

where it is. Most of the municipal leaders will be there at that in Gander, the

wonderful District of Gander.

MR. JOYCE: It is a good spot.

The emergency preparedness program they had one out in Stephenville. Is

that going to be cut this year, that one for firefighters and fire training? Are

you aware if that is going to be affected?

MR. O'BRIEN: I have no knowledge. That is within Advanced Education and

Skills.

MR. JOYCE: I did not know if you were notified if there was going to be

any decrease in

MR. O'BRIEN: Not to my knowledge. It would be a question to ask the

minister.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Capital works: How much money is allocated this year for capital works and

how much was carried over from last year?

MR. O'BRIEN: We have about $147 million cash flow in our projects going

back as far as 2008. We had a $130 million commitment authority last year. We

have all of that out the door really in regard to projects being awarded not

awarded in tender now, but actually to the community.

We have about $20 million of that left in regard to commitment authority that

I will be using for the smaller municipalities which I will be reviewing now

over the next few weeks or so. Then, as well, we have the $25 million capital

works program on top of the $130 million, or their share of the $130 million for

the communities or for the 11,000 population base.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

Minister, you may have to have someone look into this because I am just

bringing it up. It is not in the Estimates, but it is an issue. About two years

ago, Frenchman's Cove just went through a full water and sewer. The pavement is

gone. I know there was a dispute with Transportation and Works and Municipal

Affairs about that work not done properly. Even coming down where you are going

into the water intake, there is a drop there now about two or three feet. I

drive it on a regular basis because I have to go out to the south shore.

Is there any way that they can go back and look at this? Because this was

brand new pavement put down less than two years ago. It is torn up. There are

dips. It has to be fixed either this year I know that Transportation would not

take it over until Municipal Affairs fixed the road. I do not know if Cluney is

aware I am sure he is aware of it.

MR. O'BRIEN: I am familiar with the project as well. Is that a community

road or is that provincial road?

MR. JOYCE: A highways road.

MR. O'BRIEN: That is a highways road, right?

MR. JOYCE: Yes.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, so if there is going to be any issue in regard to the

paving it is going to be in Transportation and Works.

MR. JOYCE: It would be Transportation and Works but what happened, when

they did the water and sewer project, it tore up the whole road.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Part of the contract from Municipal Affairs was to repave.

MR. O'BRIEN: To repave. Okay.

MR. JOYCE: The pavement Transportation and Works, I know, was in

consultation with the department was not up to standard and there are major

problems with the

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: I do not know if that has been resolved, because the road is

actually torn up. It is two years old. It is a crime, actually.

MR. O'BRIEN: I will have somebody from and Cluney will have somebody

from the regional office go out and have a look in regard to the dip and the

condition of the pavement again, and give me an overview. We will have a chat

here in the House about it.

MR. JOYCE: Yes, because it is. Transportation will not take it over

because it is not up to their standard, and they are still in limbo.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.

MR. JOYCE: Residents are always saying, geez, boy and it was a great

job, the water and sewer and all that. There is no issue with that. It is just

that road is still and it is in dispute. No one wants to touch it, and it is

two years old. I think it should have been done over a year ago

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes.

MR. JOYCE: which would have been done a year. There were major holes in

the road, major portions of the road down to the gravel.

MR. O'BRIEN: Okay. Well, I am going to have a look at that because if

that is the case there might be some issues in regard to warranty. I do not

know. I will not speak of them now.

MR. JOYCE: Okay.

MR. O'BRIEN: Let me have a look at it for you, and we will get together

in the House.

MR. JOYCE: Perfect. Yes.

I have just a few general questions, Minister. Is there any money put forward

for the number of boil orders in the Province? Is there anything specially done

for that?

MR. O'BRIEN: We have seventy-two treatment projects in the Province in

regard to treatment of water and safe water. We have a number of systems out

there that are not being used. We have maintenance issues and whatever it may

be, and therein lies the boil order issues.

One of the things that came forward in regard to the new Municipal Operating

Grant was the issue surrounding maintenance costs and issues surrounding

operational costs and whatever. That is the reason I wanted to have our

Municipal Operating Grant ready for the 2014 calendar year of municipalities, if

at all possible, to increase their municipal operating monies to address those

issues. I cannot remember off the top of my head how many systems out there that

are not in operation. They are there, but they are just not in operation because

they do not put the chlorine in and whatever it may be.

I will be upfront; there is an issue in rural Newfoundland in regard to

chlorine. We have paid big money, good money, to have a chlorination system

installed but the people who live in the actual community do not want it because

they do not want to taste the chlorine in rural Newfoundland Labrador. I am

quite honest with you here. So, it is a challenge, because it is not just us. We

have invested heavily in regard to chlorination processes, but as well, we

recognize the challenges of the municipal council.

We are cognizant of the boil orders. You have to remember as well when it

comes down to boil orders, you have to break that down. There could be three

systems in one community and that is three boil orders, because you do. You have

to have that, too. Then you have to break it down to actually how many

municipalities are on the boil order. That is two different things.

You have to remember that there are different systems and the number of

systems in communities. The regulations are in Environment in regard to that,

and we support the communities from a capital program. As well, we are trying to

help in regard to their operational and maintenance costs under the Municipal

Operating Grants.

MR. JOYCE: Minister, how many potable water dispensing units are in the

Province now?

MR. O'BRIEN: I am pretty sure we have thirteen that are funded. Thirteen

that is operational. We have a number

MR. JOYCE: Can we get a list of communities that have them? I am sure

that is public knowledge.

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes, absolutely. As a matter of fact, we have some up on the

Northeast Coast of Labrador. They are good systems.

MR. JOYCE: Are there any more planned?

MR. O'BRIEN: Yes there is, absolutely.

MR. JOYCE: Okay. I know it is a big issue out in Corner Brook, and I am

sure it is all over, with the new federal regulations concerning water effluent.

Has the Province signed on that yet? Are there negotiations with the Province

with the new federal regulations coming in?

MR. O'BRIEN: Well, there is really no sign on from the Province's point

of view. They are federal regulations and they are what they are. They are

implemented by the feds. Municipalities right across Canada have to deal with

it.

There is time, because there are certain thresholds in regard to high

priority areas as compared to lower priority areas. They go from 20-20, 20-30,

20-40. We are going to probably have not a session as such, but we are going

to have a chat at a symposium in Gander which is happening in the next six weeks

or so from now in regard to some of the things that the municipalities can do.

I know Corner Brook is doing some work in regard to flow and composition and

that kind of thing in regard to their outfalls. That does not cost a lot of

money. I think the City of Corner Brook is doing that for probably $15,000. So

you can just imagine a small community of 500 or 600. It does not cost a whole

lot to get someone to come in and do that kind of work for you.

You are only talking about $15,000 there for the City of Corner Brook. That

is the first s