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November 19, 2009

39th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2009-Nov-19 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 19 November 2009 Jeudi 19 novembre 2009

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TAXATION

ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

ONTARIO TAX PLAN FOR MORE JOBS

AND GROWTH ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE PLAN FISCAL

DE L'ONTARIO POUR ACCROÎTRE

L'EMPLOI ET LA CROISSANCE

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

ORAL QUESTIONS

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

FLU IMMUNIZATION

TAXATION

ELECTRONIC HEALTH INFORMATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

TAXATION

IMMIGRANT SERVICES

TAXATION

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PORK INDUSTRY

HOSPITAL FUNDRAISER

TAXATION

SCHOOL POOLS

NORTH YORK HARVEST FOOD BANK

TAXATION

PAN AM GAMES

FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN

FLU IMMUNIZATION

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

TOBY'S ACT (RIGHT TO BE FREE

FROM DISCRIMINATION AND HARASSMENT

BECAUSE OF GENDER IDENTITY), 2009 /

LOI TOBY DE 2009 SUR LE DROIT

À L'ABSENCE DE DISCRIMINATION

ET DE HARCÈLEMENT FONDÉS

SUR L'IDENTITÉ DE GENRE

CHILD PROTECTION /

PROTECTION DES ENFANTS

PETITIONS

ELMVALE DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOL

DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES

HISPANIC COMMUNITY

TAXATION

HISPANIC COMMUNITY

TAXATION

RECONSTRUCTIVE SURGERY

TAXATION

HOSPITAL FUNDING

HIGHWAY INTERCHANGE

GO TRANSIT TUNNEL

SOCIAL SERVICES FUNDING

PRIVATE MEMBERS'

PUBLIC BUSINESS

WASTE DISPOSAL SITE 41

IN THE TOWNSHIP OF TINY ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE LIEU 41

D'ÉLIMINATION DE DÉCHETS

DANS LE CANTON DE TINY

WORKPLACE SAFETY AND

INSURANCE AMENDMENT ACT

(ALTERNATE INSURANCE PLANS), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA SÉCURITÉ PROFESSIONNELLE

ET L'ASSURANCE CONTRE

LES ACCIDENTS DU TRAVAIL

(RÉGIMES D'ASSURANCE

CONCURRENTS)

PROTECTION OF VULNERABLE AND ELDERLY PEOPLE FROM ABUSE ACT (POWERS OF ATTORNEY), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES PERSONNES VULNÉRABLES

ET DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

CONTRE LES MAUVAIS TRAITEMENTS (PROCURATIONS)

WASTE DISPOSAL SITE 41

IN THE TOWNSHIP OF TINY ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE LIEU 41

D'ÉLIMINATION DE DÉCHETS

DANS LE CANTON DE TINY

WORKPLACE SAFETY AND

INSURANCE AMENDMENT ACT

(ALTERNATE INSURANCE PLANS), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA SÉCURITÉ PROFESSIONNELLE

ET L'ASSURANCE CONTRE

LES ACCIDENTS DU TRAVAIL

(RÉGIMES D'ASSURANCE

CONCURRENTS)

PROTECTION OF VULNERABLE AND ELDERLY PEOPLE FROM ABUSE ACT (POWERS OF ATTORNEY), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES PERSONNES VULNÉRABLES

ET DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

CONTRE LES MAUVAIS TRAITEMENTS (PROCURATIONS)

WASTE DISPOSAL SITE 41

IN THE TOWNSHIP OF TINY ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE LIEU 41

D'ÉLIMINATION DE DÉCHETS

DANS LE CANTON DE TINY

WORKPLACE SAFETY AND

INSURANCE AMENDMENT ACT

(ALTERNATE INSURANCE PLANS), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA SÉCURITÉ PROFESSIONNELLE

ET L'ASSURANCE CONTRE

LES ACCIDENTS DU TRAVAIL

(RÉGIMES D'ASSURANCE

CONCURRENTS)

PROTECTION OF VULNERABLE AND ELDERLY PEOPLE FROM ABUSE ACT (POWERS OF ATTORNEY), 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LA PROTECTION

DES PERSONNES VULNÉRABLES

ET DES PERSONNES ÂGÉES

CONTRE LES MAUVAIS TRAITEMENTS (PROCURATIONS)

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TIME ALLOCATION

TIME ALLOCATION

The House met at 0900.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Good morning. Please remain standing for the Lord's Prayer, followed by the Sikh prayer.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

TAXATION

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: I gave notice to your office yesterday afternoon, so you're aware of this. I thank you for allowing me the opportunity to expand on that letter. For the benefit of those who are not aware of its contents, I will repeat some of the points that I made to you, Speaker, in writing yesterday.

Pursuant to standing order 21(c), I have provided the Speaker with the required written notice to raise this point of privilege here this morning. I'll share with the House specific reasons why the joint provincial-federal agreement on the harmonized sales tax and the government's refusal to hold full public consultations in communities across this province contravenes standing order 21(a).

Just like in hockey, or in any other sport, we have rules on our playing surface that guide us as we speak or vote in this Legislature. Standing order 21(

a) says that the House collectively, and its MPPs individually, enjoy rights conferred by the Legislative Assembly Act and other statutes, "or by practice, precedent, usage and custom." These rights are listed in many parliamentary manuals, but for the sake of brevity, Speaker, I'm only going to refer to Marleau and Montpetit, House of Commons Procedure and Practice, which states: "The House has the authority to invoke privilege where its ability has been obstructed in the execution of its functions or where members have been obstructed in the performance of their duties." So in simpler terms, we as MPPs individually, or as a group, have the right to come here to represent our constituents to the best of our ability.

And we can't do our jobs when our hands are being tied. We can't do our jobs when we and the people of this province are being denied full public consultations. That's when we question whether or not democracy is working and why we are even here. The legislation required to implement the harmonized sales tax, Bill 218, has already–

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Excuse me, both members, for a moment. A proper notice of point of privilege was filed with the Speaker. I'm going to give the member the opportunity to speak to his point of privilege. I would encourage him not to engage in debate and to stick to the points that he's raised, but I will hear the honourable member through.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: Thank you, I appreciate that you are prepared to hear me out. As I said, I'm not going to extend the discussion with respect to this, but I think it is important to put some of these points in terms of the point that I'm raising because they are relevant. Once this harmonized sales tax bill is passed, some of its measures will take effect January 1, 2010. We know the government is going to pursue swift and speedy passage of some of the elements of the bill.

As currently written, Bill 218 incorporates the harmonized sales tax agreement which locks in the province for at least five years. That's important in terms of my point of privilege. It's locking in the province for at least five years. Under this legislation, Bill 218, there is no chance to reduce the provincial sales tax rate until after the first two years. There's no chance to manoeuvre on exemptions, because the agreement limits harmonized sales tax exemptions in the province to a total of only 5% of the estimated GST base in Ontario.

While House precedent suggests that constitutional matters be left to the courts, it's worth mentioning that

section 92 of the Constitution Act says that provincial Legislatures may exclusively make laws in relation to "direct taxation within the province in order to the raising of a revenue for provincial purposes."

With the federal government so involved in our direct taxation under the harmonized sales tax, we can't help but question—I can't help but question—the constitutionality of the harmonized sales tax agreement signed by Minister Duncan. It contradicts our traditional division of powers between provincial legislatures and the federal government.

Under our system of parliamentary democracy, governments are granted power by the will of the people for four years only. In fact, this government itself introduced and passed legislation to go with the four-year term and fixed elections. Yet now, with this harmonized sales tax agreement, this government is attempting to extend their mandate from potentially beyond the political grave on such a sweeping issue without the required support of the electorate. It's an affront to voters and a democratic travesty to the system under which we serve them.

MPPs today, but especially those elected in October 2011, will be obstructed in the performance of their duties, rendered powerless to act on behalf of their constituents who need harmonized sales tax issues raised. By limiting the authority of future governments to make change, the future of this province will have been determined by its past. Democracy will move backward instead of forward.

Unfortunately, our collective efforts to advance democracy with the harmonized sales tax issue are slipping, as I speak. As you know, in my view, and our view, we are being obstructed in the execution of our functions by the government's refusal to hold public consultations—full public consultations—in communities across the province.

According to Marleau-Montpetit, financial procedures adopted by the Canadian House of Commons in 1867 were formed by several principles including, and I quote from Marleau and Montpetit, "that all legislation sanctioning expenditure or initiating taxation is to be given the fullest possible discussion, both in the House and in committee."

This principle was promoted to ensure that, "Parliament may not, by sudden and hasty votes, incur any expenses, or be induced to approve of measures, which may entail heavy and lasting burdens upon the country."

The last part of this quote is particularly applicable and shows great foresight into the situation we are facing here today. We know—and the people of this province know—that the harmonized sales tax will be a heavy and lasting burden for all of us to bear. They knew back in 1867 the importance of full debate and public input to taxation issues, and it's nothing short of a disgrace that 142 years later, this government is denying full committee and also, likely, full debate in this House on a life-altering taxation bill.

Not only do the constraints of the harmonized sales tax agreement handcuff MPPs today and in the future, they also limit the extent to which people can object if full committee were to be held since exemptions are capped.

It boils down to this: Cutting out critical consultations and making long-lasting decisions beyond a people-sanctioned term of office makes everyone irrelevant except the governing party. People don't matter. Opposition MPPs don't matter; even the House and its long-standing traditions of business don't matter. The only thing that seems to matter to the government is fast-tracking Bill 218 to passage.

On this harmonized sales tax issue, we can no longer do our job individually as members; we can no longer do our job collectively as Her Majesty's loyal opposition. I'm sure the third party, the NDP, shares this view. When the opposition can no longer serve as an effective check and balance to government on an issue of such importance to the public and the province's future, democracy simply doesn't exist.

Mr. Speaker, that is why I'm asking you today, on behalf of all of my colleagues in the official opposition, to help restore democracy to this chamber with a favourable ruling. Should you rule that this matter is a prima facie case of privilege, I would be prepared to move the following motion. I won't read it—I don't want to incur your wrath, Speaker, but it deals with cancellation of the agreement.

The impact of this tax will be felt by people of all ages, by people from all parts of this province, by people in all professions and by people of all income levels. This tax won't discriminate. Over and over again, you'll be paying it. It's wide-reaching. People should have input—their representatives in this place should have input.

In closing, I would like to quote the words of the writ of summons for one of the councils of Parliament dated 1295—

Interjections.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: I'm quoting, Speaker, if you can hear me over the interjections from the Liberal benches: "What touches all, should be approved by all."

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Timmins—James Bay.

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Speaker, I plan not to take a long time; I just want to add a couple of things to what was said earlier. I'm responding to the point of privilege obviously brought forward by the member from Leeds—Grenville with respect to a possible violation of standing order 21(a). What needs to be determined here is if the decision introduced by Bill 218 to implement the HST makes a prima facie case of privilege that requires your ruling.

At the heart of matter is the question of encumbrance of future governments. What we know is that the McGuinty government is set to enter into a tax harmonization agreement with the federal government that has implications that will extend well beyond the current mandate, and that was laid out by Mr. Runciman.

Here are the facts: The agreement in principle locks the province into a defined tax structure for a minimum of five years, despite the fact that less than two years remain in their mandate. Additionally, the cap on exemptions imposes further limits on the province's ability to use its taxation powers to address future issues. A future government would not be able, for example, to say in order to stimulate the economy that they want to reduce the PST. You couldn't do that as a future government. You would not be able to exempt certain products that are currently exempted under the PST. Should a new government be elected, it would handcuff the ability of the newly elected government to do so.

I want to draw to your attention one particular issue that is fairly serious in part of my riding. As you know, I represent many First Nations. Currently, under the provincial tax laws, First Nations people who have status have the ability—I'm just wondering what's going on; all of a sudden, I see everybody running to one end of the Legislature—to have a point-of-sale exemption when it comes to being able to purchase a product. If you live on a reserve and you want to buy a product, you are exempt from having to pay PST as a point-of-sale exemption.

Under the new HST rules, that point-of-sale exemption will no longer exist. A future government—for example, if we were to form the next government or the Conservatives were to form the next government—couldn't try to reverse that and give First Nations what they had at the beginning. It really handcuffs the ability of future governments to do anything when it comes to moving on changes to this particular tax provision after the next election.

Clearly such a move violates parliamentary procedure by binding the legislative capacity of future Parliaments. In light of the sudden shift of the global economy and the effects that the downturn has had on the fiscal capacity of governments around the world, the implications of taking away the key tool of taxation power from future administrations is not only significant because of its contravention of parliamentary principle.

Ironically, as governments applied a wide variety of approaches to address the current fiscal crisis, even those they had previously disparaged, the McGuinty government would undoubtedly have an adverse impact on the assembly's ability to act in the face of a future crisis.

That is an important point that we need to take into consideration. We cannot handcuff a future Legislature from being able to deal with what will possibly be different circumstances that require different reactions when it comes to tax policy.

Given the marked decline of provincial financial capacity and the accepted wisdom that the government needs access to a variety of tools available to help weather financial storms, the gravity of the decision to take steps toward harmonization becomes painfully evident. In a parliamentary democracy, we accept that the mandate provided by the electorate only applies to a set time frame.

The action proposed in Bill 212 becomes doubly egregious when the McGuinty government decision to limit public consultation on the bill is taken into consideration. In Montpetit, on page 701, quoted earlier by my friend Mr. Runciman—I'm not going to go back and quote the entire page, because I don't want to take the time to do that, but I just want to say that the point is that when we set up the taxation regimes in our Parliaments, it was clear that the direction we were given by the framers was that "all legislation sanctioning expenditure or initiating taxation is to be given the fullest possible discussion, both within the House and in committee."

What is at point here is that the government wants to pass this legislation before the House rises in about three weeks' time. That is going to limit the ability of this House to have meaningful discussion on this particular bill. Number two, and more importantly, it's going to limit the ability of the public, those people affected either positively or negatively—I would argue more negatively, as a result of the new HST rules that are going to be put in place in this new regime. So I would argue that there needs to be an ability for the public to have its say, and the process that the government is choosing is very much going to limit that.

I say, Speaker, that this is a serious point of privilege. It's one that we would ask you to take your time to rule on and not to call that bill for debate until such time as you have had the ability to respond to the House more fully later.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The government House leader.

Hon. Monique M. Smith: As I'm sure you expect, Speaker, I vehemently disagree with the members from Leeds—Grenville and Timmins—James Bay. This is not a point of privilege.

Bill 218 has been introduced in the House as a piece of legislation. It will be debated; it will have fulsome debate. If we weren't spending a great deal of time talking about innocuous points of privilege this morning, we would have time to debate it this morning.

This point of privilege did not, in fact, raise any violation of privilege. I listened intently to the member from Leeds—Grenville and there was, in fact, no violation of any privilege of a member of this Legislature being referred to, although there was a great deal of debate about Bill 218. There is nothing in this bill that violates a privilege of a member.

I would remind the members opposite of their signing of the 407 agreement, which handcuffed this government—some of the members across are wincing and coughing—and handcuffed governments of the future for years and years, an agreement that was entered into by that government.

This agreement was signed by our Minister of Finance and the federal Minister of Finance, Mr. Flaherty, who is a friend and colleague and very close acquaintance to many on the other side. They are fully aware that the agreement was signed by both, and that both Houses, including the federal House of Parliament, will have to pass legislation to implement this arrangement.

The member opposite has raised a question of constitutionality. Mr. Speaker, as you are only too clearly aware, a constitutional question is not a question of privilege and is not to be raised in this House. There are courts to look at questions of constitutionality. If the opposition should choose to take that challenge and challenge Mr. Flaherty's decision and signature, they are more than welcome to do that.

As I said previously, many agreements and, certainly, many pieces of legislation exceed the mandate of Legislatures, and in no way is that a violation of privilege.

Here, the agreement that was reached between the Ministers of Finance requires that both Houses pass legislation to implement that agreement. Both Houses will be introducing legislation; we have. Bill 218 is now before the House, to be debated without further delay.

I would ask that you not find that there has been any privilege violated, because I don't believe there has been. Certainly it does not violate the rules that have been introduced today in this discussion. I would ask that we continue with debate.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I want to thank the member for Leeds—Grenville, the member for Timmins—James Bay and the government House leader. I'm going to recess this House for 10 minutes.

The House recessed from 0922 to 0939.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I want to thank, once again, the member from Leeds—Grenville and the member from Timmins—James Bay and the government House leader for their submissions. I will be reserving my ruling. In the meantime, Bill 218 is properly before the House and is in order, so if it is the order of the day, I will allow it to be called.

ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS

Mr. Ted Arnott: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I have an urgent and valid point of order, I would contend. It's based on my understanding of the standing orders of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, if members would turn to page 48,

part XVIII, it appears, standing order 99(d). On September 15, 2009—that would be how many months ago? About a month ago, I guess—the member for Whitby—Oshawa, my colleague in the Legislature, submitted the following order paper question: "Would the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care please provide the annual reports and detailed financial statements for the Ontario Association of Community Care Access Centres for each fiscal year beginning from 2004-05 to the present?"

As you are well aware, Mr. Speaker, standing order 99(

d) reads as follows: "The minister shall answer such written questions within 24 sessional days, unless he or she indicates that more time is required because the answer will be costly or time-consuming or that he or she declines to answer, in which case a notation shall be made on the orders and notices paper following the question indicating that the minister has made an interim answer, the approximate date that the information will be available, or that the minister has declined to answer, as the case may be."

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): To the honourable member from Wellington—Halton Hills: In consultation with the table, that is a valid point of order. That question is overdue. I would suggest to the government House leader that there be communication undertaken with the Ministry of Health to ensure that the member from Whitby—Oshawa receives a prompt answer to that. I thank the member for that valid point of order.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I do have more information here.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): No. I have just ruled that you have raised a valid point of order and that the information is overdue, according to the standing orders. As I have done on other occasions in this House, I have urged and will follow through with the government House leader that that response is properly attended to.

Mr. Ted Arnott: I'm sorry; I couldn't hear what you said, Mr. Speaker. My microphone wasn't working.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I will repeat it again for the honourable member. You have a valid point of order. The question is overdue and I am asking that the government House leader instruct the Minister of Health to ensure that that answer is given to the question to the member from Whitby—Oshawa, who raised that question and put it on the order paper.

The Minister of Finance on a point of order.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I move second reading of Bill 218,

An Act to—

Interjections.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I didn't say it was a point of order, Speaker. I move second reading of Bill 218,

An Act—

Interjections.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: He hasn't called orders of the day yet.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Orders of the day have not been called.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: This point of order is for the purpose of seeking clarification and ruling from the Speaker on standing order 110(

a) and standing order 108(h).

Standing order 108(

h) reads: "Standing Committee on Public Accounts which is empowered to review and report to the House its observations, opinions and recommendations on the report of the Auditor General and the public accounts, which documents shall be deemed to have been permanently referred to the committee as they become available."

Standing order 110(

a) reads: "Standing and select committees shall be severally empowered to examine, inquire into and report from time to time on all such matters as may be referred to them by the House."

Specifically, Speaker, I am asking you to provide specific guidance as to what the words "examine" and "inquire" mean in the context of the public accounts committee. We know that the work of committees, both standing and select, have done and continue to do great work which is much service to this place and to the people of Ontario. As we know, committees do more than just review bills as part of the legislative process, and the public accounts committee is one such example.

In October 2009, the Auditor General released his special report on Ontario's electronic health records initiative—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I would just ask the honourable member to get to the point of his point of order and provide the House, and me, with the specific point, not generalities.

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: Okay, Speaker. It's going to take me just a moment to go through it to find where the specifics are, but I will work toward that.

The public accounts committee met on October 21 and 28 and November 4 and 18. The committee was unanimous in its agreement to invite the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I'd ask that the honourable member provide the Chair immediately with what is out of order before this House at this moment.

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: I can give the clerks' table a copy of the point of order, if they'd like.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): That being the case, if you have information that would assist the Speaker in providing a ruling, I would welcome that submission to be made to me and will reserve judgment on my ruling on your point of order.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): You have information that you're going to provide to me on your point of order?

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: Yes, and I will read you the conclusions so that it makes sense.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Read me the conclusions.

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: Okay. Just one second. There was one aspect where it was specifically stated that the government members on the committee on public accounts specifically stated that it was a government rule and government tradition that only sitting members and current members within agencies are allowed to present before the committee.

These are the questions I wish you to answer, or have answered: Is the public accounts committee precluded from inviting former government employees to appear before it when it—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): As the honourable member knows, items that are dealt with at committee, including points of order—I do not have the ability to rule on an item that is at committee. Those issues must be dealt with at the committee level.

I am going to ask that the honourable member come to his conclusion very quickly.

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: What I'm asking you to review is this: Is the public accounts committee precluded from inviting former government employees to appear before it when considering a report from the Auditor General?

As well, I would ask you to rule on this: Is the public accounts committee precluded from inviting private individuals to appear before it when considering a report of the Auditor General?

What we are trying to do here is ensure that those individuals, and we, are in compliance with the guidelines of the House. I'm asking you to make an official ruling so that all individuals specifically know what is allowed and what is not allowed.

A number of statements have been made by government members which specifically stated that individuals—

Hon. Monique M. Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I would just direct the Speaker and the member to look at—

Interjections.

Hon. Monique M. Smith: Let me finish the sentence, Ted—to look at standing order—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I want to thank the honourable member from Oshawa for his point of order. I welcome his submission and the information he has provided, and I will rule on that point of order on a subsequent date.

I have the government House leader on a point of order.

Hon. Monique M. Smith: I apologize if my colleagues do not let me finish the sentence. I would just ask the Speaker to look at standing order 13(d)—perhaps this is pertinent to the discussions this morning—"A member raising a point of order or point of privilege, and any member permitted by the Speaker to speak ... must put the point tersely and speak only to the point raised. A point of order or privilege is heard in silence by the House." I would just ask the Speaker that this be enforced.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I thank the government House leader for the point of order.

I allowed the honourable member to make his point. I've ruled on that: I've asked the honourable member to provide me with additional information and I will rule on that.

The Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Government order G218.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I will remind honourable members that, yes, orders of the day was called. When I called orders of the day, the honourable member from Leeds—Grenville rose on his point of order with the notice that he had properly provided to me in advance.

The Minister of Finance.

ONTARIO TAX PLAN FOR MORE JOBS

AND GROWTH ACT, 2009 /

LOI DE 2009 SUR LE PLAN FISCAL

DE L'ONTARIO POUR ACCROÎTRE

L'EMPLOI ET LA CROISSANCE

Mr. Duncan moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 218,

An Act to implement 2009 Budget measures and to enact, amend or repeal various Acts / Projet de loi 218, Loi mettant en oeuvre certaines mesures énoncées dans le Budget de 2009 et édictant, modifiant ou abrogeant diverses lois.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Debate? The Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I will be sharing my time with my parliamentary assistant, the member from Pickering—Scarborough East.

I'm pleased today to lead off second reading on Bill 218, the Ontario Tax Plan for More Jobs and Growth Act, 2009. As I indicated, sir, I will be sharing my time today with my parliamentary assistant, Mr. Wayne Arthurs.

As outlined in the recent 2009 Ontario economic outlook and fiscal review, the current global downturn has had a significant impact on Ontario families and businesses. This, in turn, has led to a decline in government revenues, as well as an increase in demand for government services. Faced with this challenge, the government has proposed bold new initiatives that would improve Ontario's competitiveness in attracting business investment and creating jobs.

When combined, the measures in the 2009 budget and the Ontario Tax Plan for More Jobs and Growth Act, 2009, would provide more than $15 billion in tax relief to Ontario individuals, families—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: I recognize we're in orders of the day, but I want to raise a point of order in regard to what the Minister of Finance is currently doing. You know that there was

an act that was passed in this House called the Taxpayer Protection Act. I'm not going to go through it and make a long point of order, but here's the gist of it: Government is not able to increase taxes unless, in the previous election, it had filed with the Chief Electoral Officer its plan to raise taxes. The only way that a government could raise taxes, according to the Taxpayer Protection Act, is they would have had to file in the last election a notice to the Chief Electoral Officer to be able to do so. Clearly, that was not done.

I'm not going to read the entire act because you're going to think I'm being dilatory, but I want to get to my point here. First of all, there is an exemption for it to be able to do so. It says:

"2(1) A member of the executive council shall not include in a bill a provision that increases, or permits the increase of, a tax rate under a designated tax statute or that establishes a new tax unless,

"(

a) a referendum concerning the increase or the new tax is held under this act before the bill is introduced; and

"(

b) the referendum authorizes the increase or the new tax."

I'm not going to read it all; I'm going to come to my point. It basically says that if the referendum is not needed by way of exemption, then the following has to happen, which is public notice, and this is my point. It says on, I think, page 3 or 4 of the act:

"Public notice

"

(2) If no referendum is required by virtue of subsection (1), the minister shall prepare a statement indicating that, in his or her opinion, a specified circumstance listed in subsection (1) exists and shall lay the statement before the assembly or give it to the Clerk of the Assembly before the applicable bill is introduced...." I would like to see such a—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I'm prepared to respond to that point of order that has been raised. The member raises a point that is a matter of law, not procedure, and is therefore not one that can be addressed through a point of order. However, in the interests of facilitating the business of the House, I should indicate that the minister has filed with the Clerk the required affirmation that specified circumstances in subsection 5(1) of the Taxpayer Protection Act exist.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. You're absolutely right. This was filed on November 16. It is on page VII of the tax plan for jobs and growth, which is in the possession of all members. I will read it:

"Pursuant to subsection 5(2) of the Taxpayer Protection Act, 1999, this statement will confirm that ... the specified circumstances in paragraph 1 of subsection 5(1) exist. The total tax relief package, including the proposed measures announced today, would reduce Ontario revenue by $3.4 billion over the first four years, net of federal assistance of $4.3 billion."

I would like to continue along and outline a few more highlights of Bill 218. Effective July 1, 2010, should the bill be passed, we would replace the current retail sales tax with a value-added sales tax and combine it with the federal GST to create the harmonized sales tax, or HST. The HST would make Ontario businesses more competitive, increase business investment, create new jobs, raise incomes and reduce prices for many consumer expenditures.

Replacing the RST with a value-added sales tax, or VAT, is long overdue. In fact, more than 140 countries and four other Canadian provinces have adopted a value-added tax. More recently, British Columbia has announced its proposal to adopt the HST. Even the federal government agrees this step is needed to make Ontario more attractive for investment. That is why we recently concluded a comprehensive integrated tax coordination agreement.

This government is also proposing to help smooth the transition to the HST. Eligible Ontario residents 18 years of age or over who have a spouse or a common-law partner or live with their child would receive transition benefit payments in June 2010, December 2010 and June 2011. Eligible families, including single parents, with incomes of $160,000 or less would get three payments totalling $1,000. Eligible single individuals with net incomes of $80,000 or less would get three payments totalling $300. These payments would not be taxable. This measure would provide an estimated $4 billion in relief to 6.5 million eligible individuals and families.

Moving to the HST would cause some purchases to cost more because some goods and services that are not subject to the RST would become subject to the provincial portion of the HST. However, Ontarians would not see a change in taxable status for 83% of total consumer expenditures. As announced in the 2009 budget, we are proposing to provide targeted tax relief on many items important to Ontario families by providing point-of-sale rebates of the 8% Ontario portion of the HST for books, children's clothing, children's footwear, children's car seats, children's car booster seats, diapers and feminine hygiene products.

In addition to these point-of-sale rebates, Ontario proposes to provide additional point-of-sale rebates for print newspapers, as well as qualifying prepared foods and beverages sold for a total of $4 and under. We believe that this would further help Ontario families in the transition to the HST.

Small businesses would also be provided with help as the Ontario government would provide up to $400 million in one-time transitional assistance.

To support public service bodies, for instance school authorities, hospital authorities, public colleges, universities, municipal charities and non-profit organizations, as well as Ontario farmers, these sectors would not be subject to the temporary restrictions on certain input tax credits during the phase-in of the HST.

We are also proposing to allow Ontarians to keep more of their money. As outlined in the 2009 budget, we are proposing $10.6 billion over three years in permanent tax relief for people by cutting personal income tax, or PIT, enhancing ongoing sales and property tax relief, and providing $4 billion in direct payments to ensure a smooth transition to the HST.

Effective January 1, 2010, the tax rate on the first tax bracket would be cut by one percentage point, from 6.05% to 5.05%, providing more than $1.1 billion in personal income tax relief in 2010-11.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: It is with great concern that I submit what the official opposition, under the leadership of Tim Hudak, believes to be a contempt of the Legislature for your consideration and that of members of this assembly. As you know, the official opposition takes it—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. That is a point of privilege, and you have to give notice to the Speaker prior to introducing it.

The Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We are also proposing to allow Ontarians to keep more of their money. As outlined in the 2009 budget, we are proposing $10.6 billion over three years in tax relief for people by cutting personal income tax, or PIT, enhancing ongoing sales and property tax relief, and providing $4 billion in direct payments to ensure a smooth transition to the HST.

Effective January 1, 2010, the tax rate on the first tax bracket would be cut by one percentage point, from 6.05% to 5.05%, providing more than $1.1 billion in PIT relief in 2010-11.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. The Minister of Finance has the floor. Please let him speak.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Effective January 1, 2010, the tax rate on the first tax bracket would be cut by one percentage point, from 6.05% to 5.05%, providing more than—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. I would ask honourable members to come to order. Please allow the Minister of Finance to continue his remarks.

Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Ontario families and individuals with up to $80,000 in income would get an average personal income tax—

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: As the official opposition, we take our duty to hold the government to account very seriously. We've made it a priority to ensure that the activities and the proceedings in this chamber are part of a civilized debate on matters of public interest. We had hoped that the Premier and his government caucus would also contribute to our efforts to "treat the Legislature and its members and the people they represent at all times with respect." Our focus on this, as Speaker Fraser—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Please take your seat. I'd like you to get to the point of order. Is there something disorderly about the debate this morning?

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: As Speaker Fraser in Canada's House of Commons observed on October 10, 1989, "We are not an executive democracy. We are not an administrative democracy. We are—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Please take your seat. Order. I give you one more chance to get to the bottom of the point of order.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: We in the opposition feel that there need to be public hearings into this. I quote the Canadian House of Commons, Eugene Forsey, who states, on page 18 of his October 1985 submission, that responsible government is—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. Sorry, but I don't see the point of order in terms of this morning's debate. I would ask the Minister of Finance to continue his remarks.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We are also proposing to allow Ontarians to keep more of their money. As outlined in the 2009 budget, we are proposing $10.6 billion over three years in tax relief for people by cutting personal income tax, or PIT, enhancing ongoing sales and property tax relief, and providing $4 billion in direct payments to ensure a smooth transition to the HST.

Effective January 1, 2010, the tax rate on the first tax bracket would be—

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: My initial point of order—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): You should wait until I recognize the honourable member. The honourable member from Nepean—Carleton.

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. On the point of order that I just raised, which you indicated was a point of privilege, I want to note that on September 25, 2006, the point of order was raised by the member for Leeds—Grenville. Contempt was raised as a point of order for entertainment. And by the way, the Speaker gave due consideration to a similar point of order for the member of Leeds—Grenville. Would you like me to repeat it, Mr. Speaker?

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): I would just comment that at that time, the point of order was seen as a point of privilege. The Speaker did hear it. It's not a legitimate point of order at this time. It pertained at that time to what was going on in the House at that moment.

The Minister of Finance does have the floor. He has the right to be heard, and he has the right to speak. I'd ask you to respect that.

The Minister of Finance.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Effective January 1, 2010, the tax rate on the first tax bracket would be cut by one percentage point, from 6.05% to 5.05%, providing more than $1.1 billion in personal income tax relief in 2010-11. As a result, 93% of taxpayers would see a personal income tax cut, and approximately 90,000 lower-income tax filers would no longer pay Ontario PIT.

Ontario families and individuals with up to $80,000 in income—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. I'd ask the House to come to order.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. I'd ask the honourable members to come to order.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. This House will take a five-minute recess.

The House recessed from 1006 to 1013.

Mr. Robert Bailey: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order: In 2003, Dalton McGuinty promised the people of Ontario that he wouldn't raise their taxes. He then brought in the single largest tax increase in Ontario's history, the so-called health tax. In 2007, the same Dalton McGuinty—

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Honourable member, please take your seat. I would ask you to please take your seat. I would like you to get to the point of the point of order tersely, as it says in the standing orders.

Mr. Robert Bailey: I'll do that right away.

In 2007, the same Premier Dalton McGuinty promised the people of Ontario he wouldn't raise taxes.

Interjection: Public hearings.

Mr. Robert Bailey: We're now calling for public hearings. We want this Premier to call public hearings. He's nothing but a cowardly liar if he won't do that, and I ask him—

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): Order. I ask the honourable member for Sarnia—Lambton to withdraw that comment.

Is the honourable member refusing to withdraw that comment?

One moment.

Could I ask the honourable member for Sarnia—Lambton to withdraw that comment?

If the honourable member from Sarnia—Lambton does not wish to withdraw the offending comment, I have no choice but to name the member.

I name the member for Sarnia—Lambton and ask him to remove himself from the chamber.

Interjections.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): I would ask the honourable member to remove himself from the chamber.

Mr. Bailey was escorted from the chamber.

Second reading debate deemed adjourned.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Jim Wilson): It being past 10:15 of the clock, this House stands adjourned until 10:30, at which time we will have question period.

The House recessed from 1017 to 1030.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Michael Prue: I am pleased to introduce Shanthini Mylvaganam, the mother of page Saeyon.

Mr. Khalil Ramal: On behalf of the southwest caucus chair, MPP Pat Hoy, I'd like to welcome the delegation from the South West Economic Alliance to Queen's Park: Dan Mathieson, the mayor of Stratford and the current chair of the South West Economic Alliance; mayor of London, Anne Marie DeCicco-Best; warden of Middlesex and mayor of Thames Centre, Jim Maudsley; mayor of Middlesex Centre, Al Edmondson; mayor of Goderich, Deb Shewfelt; warden for Huron County, Ken Oke; mayor of Tillsonburg, Stephen Molnar; warden of Oxford and mayor of Ingersoll, Paul Holbrough; mayor of Woodstock, Michael Harding; warden of Lambton, Jim Burns. Welcome, everybody, to Queen's Park.

Ms. Sophia Aggelonitis: I would like to introduce to the House today my friend's mom and dad, Paul and Anne Allison from Collingwood. Welcome.

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I realize they've already been introduced, but I'd like to extend a personal welcome to Mayor Harding, from Woodstock; Mayor Holbrough, from Ingersoll; and Mayor Steve Molnar, from Tillsonburg.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I'd like to introduce and welcome to the Legislature Dr. Robin Hesler, Greg Gurniak, Greg Toffner, Michelle Falkiner, Dawn-anne Lebarron and Rory William-Demetrioff. They're all members of the Ontario Association of Medical Radiation Technologists. Last week, when we were on constituency week, was Medical Radiation Technologists Week. Welcome to you all.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I would like to take this opportunity to welcome a number of guests to the Speaker's gallery who have been introduced.

As well, welcome to the former member of Chatham from the 35th Parliament, Randy Hope. Welcome back to Queen's Park, Randy.

We have with us today guests who are here for Children's Day in the Legislature. Welcome to Connie Boudreau; Chloe Caissie; Irwin Elman, the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth; Ben Heaps, who is my partner, who unfortunately is sick today; Les Horne, of DCI-Canada; Keira Johnson; Noterlee Johnson; Matthew Massel, Agnes Samler; Yessina Vasquez; and Denisha Wright. Welcome to Queen's Park today.

On behalf of the member from York West, I'd like to welcome Joseph Pulcini and his grade 10 civics class students from James Cardinal McGuigan Catholic High School. Welcome to Queen's Park today.

Mr. John O'Toole: I'd like to welcome St. Joseph Catholic School from Uxbridge and their teacher, Jackie Loewen, grade 5.

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: I'd like to introduce the students from Lincoln Heights Public School in Waterloo and their teacher, Mr. Don Gowing.

ORAL QUESTIONS

TAXATION

Mr. Norm Miller: My question is for the Acting Premier. This government is a disgrace. How can you justify not letting the people of this province be heard on Bill 218, the largest tax increase we've seen in this province? Why are you ramming through the HST? Why won't you let the people of North Bay and the member from the riding of Nipissing be heard? What have you got to fear?

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Minister of Aboriginal Affairs will withdraw the comment.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I withdraw.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Our government is committed to creating 691,000 new jobs for Ontario. Since we announced the details of our plan way back last March, myself and the Minister of Revenue have travelled to more than 50 communities across Ontario and taken questions. We had the debate on the budget motion here in the House. We dealt at length with the HST and the other tax measures that are designed to create those 600,000 jobs. The people of Ontario will have had opportunities, will continue to have opportunities, and I fully expect a very, very complete debate on this important job-creating initiative as we move forward to a better—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary? The member from Leeds—Grenville.

Mr. Robert W. Runciman: My supplementary is to the minister as well about the spineless approach of this government with respect to public hearings on the largest sales tax increase in the history of this province. You are not allowing public consultations. The people of Cornwall, Iroquois, Morrisburg and throughout the riding of Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry want to have input into this legislation. I would ask the minister: When will you encourage your member who represents that area to stand up and speak out on behalf of the people he supposedly represents?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I can tell you that Jim Brownell is the strongest and most effective member that that region of the province has ever had. Just last week I had the opportunity to meet with a number of leaders—

Mr. Gilles Bisson: He's not here to defend himself. How could he—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): You know we do not make references to attendance of members. Stop the clock.

Minister.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: My colleague Mr. Brownell is having surgery shortly. As a result, last week he arranged a meeting with myself and a number of leaders from Cornwall, where we talked with the mayor, for instance, and a number of others about our tax plan, about our policies moving forward. We sought their input and we've heard them.

There are, have been and will continue to be many opportunities for public involvement in this very important debate, but do not discount this government's resolve to do everything it can to create 600,000 new jobs. The opposition must do its job, and I respect that.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Mr. Frank Klees: The Minister of Finance has just made reference to the fact that one of his backbenchers arranged a meeting specifically with him and certain selected people from the honourable member's riding to discuss the HST. Why will the minister not extend the same benefit to the constituents of the member from Richmond Hill, the member from Oak Ridges—Markham and other people across the province and have an open consultation about the HST where they can ask the piercing questions that are not being answered in this House? Why will he not do that?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: As a matter of fact, I think it was about a week after the introduction of the budget that the members for Markham, Richmond Hill and others had a public meeting. There were more than 200 people, including the media and critics of the government. I took about 25 questions. I might say I was criticized by some of the questioners. The housing industry was represented there. It was well publicized. My colleague the Minister of Revenue has done similar meetings, and I understand you, sir, were at one of those meetings.

We will continue to reach out. We will continue to build on this important job creation initiative. We will continue with the debate in the House, I hope. I understand the opposition's desire to try to stop this, but as the government, do not underestimate our resolve to move forward and create 600,000 new jobs for Ontario. Do not underestimate our resolve. This is too important for the future of Ontario and her people.

TAXATION

Ms. Lisa MacLeod: To the Minister of Finance: When will you stop playing this charade that five hours of hearings in Toronto is fair to Ontario seniors in Thunder Bay, in Sudbury, in Sarnia, in North Bay, London, Barrie and everywhere else across this province? Call public hearings.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Lanark will come to order, please.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock. I don't need the assistance of the Minister of Municipal Affairs in overseeing the House.

Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Last week in Ottawa I met with a number of leaders of that community. In fact, contained in the budget that this member is going to vote against is an initiative that will help the film and creative arts industry in Ottawa compete and bring jobs to Ottawa. I will refer her to the individual and the corporation involved.

I assure the member that I've been to Ottawa, I think, on five occasions at the invitation of my colleagues. We have had public meetings. We have had questions and answers, and I have met with a variety of critics of the government. We will continue to do that and I will be delighted to continue that. We will have public hearings on this bill, but do not underestimate our resolve to create 600,000 jobs, to cut—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you, Minister. Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: In 2003, Premier Dalton McGuinty promised he wouldn't raise taxes—he even signed the Taxpayer Protection Act—and then he brought in the largest tax increase in Ontario's history. In 2007, he promised again not to raise taxes, and now he's bringing in the largest increase in sales tax in Ontario's history. Furthermore, he's bringing in this act without public hearings. This Premier lied to the people of Ontario and he—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member from Halton to withdraw the comment that he made.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: Not without public hearings, Mr. Speaker. Not without public hearings on this bill.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I give the honourable member from Halton a second opportunity to withdraw his comment.

Mr. Ted Chudleigh: Not without the finance minister tabling—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I have no choice but to name Ted Chudleigh, the member from Halton, and ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort him from the chamber.

Mr. Chudleigh was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I believe, in response to the question, that in fact we are cutting taxes and we have complied with the provisions of the Taxpayer Protection Act. That's been tabled with the Clerk of the Legislature.

This tax package is important, and I want those personal tax cuts to take effect on January 1, 2010. This package has been in the public purview for five and a half months. There have been umpteen opportunities in here, and we will continue to have more opportunities to debate this and answer questions from our colleagues in the opposition. We will have considerably more public hearings on this budget bill than a number of Conservative budget bills—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary. The member from Simcoe—Grey.

Mr. Jim Wilson: My question is also for the Minister of Finance. Minister, how many more people have to get thrown out of this House so that you'll come to your senses and listen to the people of Ontario? You should be ashamed. After all your years as a parliamentarian and as an assistant before that, you should have respect for the people of Ontario and respect for the people of Willowdale, where I held meetings recently. They want answers to many questions regarding the implementation of the HST—they and many, many other ridings across this province.

Why will you not allow the people of Ontario to be heard on this very important tax measure, the most important change in your lifetime and in my lifetime that has ever taken place in the history of this province?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I'm reminded, for instance, that in Mississauga and Brampton, with a population of 1.2 million, every one of the seven MPPs representing those two cities attended a budget briefing attended by the media and more than 300 people, where questions were taken and answered. We will, in fact, have—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We will, in fact, continue those. We will have budget hearings.

With respect to decisions by the Speaker, I say to the member opposite, who removed the first member, that he made the absolute right decision in the circumstances.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Acting Premier. Over the past few weeks, the McGuinty government has rejected some very, very modest proposals. This government refuses to allow the committee reviewing the HST legislation to travel across the province to listen to Ontario families, and it's hiding the actual cost of the new tax on gas and hydro. My question is a simple one: Why is this government so afraid of an honest debate on the HST?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Let's see. I'll work in reverse. On November 12, we were in Etobicoke; in Hamilton, the member will be interested to know, on November 12 as well—the Minister of Revenue; London, November 9; Thunder Bay on November 5; Sudbury on November 4; at Niagara College on November 4—

Interjection.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We listen to all Ontarians. We don't check memberships—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member from Hamilton East to come to order, please.

Minister.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We will continue to hear from Ontarians across the province, as we've heard from a variety of sources, including the Daily Bread Food Bank, including a number of other anti-poverty groups, who have said that this budget is the right budget. I intend to move forward and implement the Ontario child benefit. I intend to implement the tax cuts for low-income Ontarians—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: None of those meetings that this minister talks about were open to the public. They were a couple of tête-à-têtes with chambers of commerce, so he is not listening to the people of this province.

The McGuinty Liberals were not elected on a harmonized sales tax platform; in fact, quite the opposite. During the 2007 campaign, the Premier rejected the HST, and when asked about it, he said, "Our government is currently pursuing other ways to foster new investments."

The Premier told Ontarians one thing when he wanted their votes and now he's doing the exact opposite and hiding from those very voters. Why is he doing that?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The world has witnessed one of the largest financial meltdowns since the Great Depression. Since that election, we've examined options that are available to us. We have consulted widely. We have attended meetings. We had a full debate on our budget bill here in this House, seven months ago.

It is not good enough to stay with the status quo. It is incumbent on us to put forward a plan that will create jobs, and this plan will do that. It is incumbent upon us to take into account the views of Ontarians, and we are doing that. I'll remind the member that we have made a number of very substantive changes since the introduction of the budget, resultant from the input we've had from the public and sectors within the public.

This is the right plan. We will have the same amount of budget hearings as we've had on fall budget bills in the past, and we—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I'll take this final supplementary to remind this Acting Premier of a couple of things—the fact that this government has changed its tune on several things since being elected. The Premier used to actually criticize corporate tax cuts. He rejected the HST when it was electorally convenient. Given his chronic flip-flopping, the least the Premier could do is provide Ontarians with a chance to be heard at province-wide legislative hearings. Why won't the government allow this?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member opposite is quite right: We rejected it as a stand-alone measure. However, with the help of our federal government and the money and the exemptions they're allowing—allowing us to cut personal taxes, allowing us to help those of modest incomes, allowing us to move forward on the Ontario child benefit two years ahead of schedule, allowing us to cut the lowest tax bracket for Ontario's most vulnerable people. This package of tax cuts is the right package, it has been subject to enormous scrutiny, and it will continue to be subject to appropriate scrutiny.

But make no mistake; do not underestimate our resolve to implement those important tax cuts effective January 1, 2010, and do not underestimate our resolve to continue to engage Ontarians in an ongoing dialogue about how we create jobs, make this economy better for all Ontarians—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question. The member for Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington.

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is to the finance minister. Your private meetings with Liberal friends are not public meetings. Why won't you let the people of Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): No, no. My apologies. I erred. The next question is for the third party.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Thank you, Speaker. I appreciate that. What I was going to say is that in fact the warm and cozy relationship that this Acting Premier describes between the federal Tories and the provincial Liberals leaves the rest of the province out in the cold. The McGuinty government can easily rhyme off the cost of HST exemptions—and this question is back to that Acting Premier—but when it comes to revealing the actual costs of the heating tax, home heating costs, this government is nowhere to be found. They play hide and seek when it comes to revealing the real numbers.

Ontarians can seek out the numbers, but the McGuinty government does everything they can possibly do to hide the numbers.

We've been told the HST on Timbits and newspapers would raise $325 million. My question is simple: How much will the HST on home heating take from the pockets of Ontario families?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Again, I will refer the member to the documents I referred her to yesterday. On page 134 of the budget, which was tabled in this House last March, the tax reform measures of converting the RST base to the new sales tax base are outlined very clearly, in table eight, top of page. Now, the member has asked for a breakdown by item and those are made available in every fall statement up until last year—I refer her to that—where we very clearly outline the tax, what are called tax expenditures; those are revenues that are forgone by a government not collecting those revenues.

What I will say to the leader of the third party again is that this package of tax cuts will help the poorest in this province, it will help build this economy and create 600,000 jobs. It's the right policy. It's about change for a better future for all Ontarians.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: The finance minister knows that they think that these numbers are a state secret. They've refused an FOI from us for exactly that reason, so I don't know what this minister is trying to prove here.

But you know what? I can tell you that seniors are really concerned about this tax. Since the McGuinty government won't go out and listen to them across the province, I'm going to give you some of the comments that they're saying.

David Thornton writes this: "[The HST] will increase taxes on everyday services we use, including hydro, natural gas, heating fuels ... [and] gasoline. Does Premier McGuinty and his cabinet not realize the strain this will put on to seniors?"

Marie Howie in eastern Ontario writes: "[The HST] will hurt people already paying more than their full share of taxes ... how can this tax on heating help seniors?"

Why is this arrogant government refusing to tell seniors like David and Marie how much extra they'll end up paying on home heating costs?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Again, we too have heard from a number of groups about the importance of the tax cuts that are included. For instance, we are doubling the seniors' property tax credit, and that member and her party are going to vote against it.

We are reducing the tax rate on the first income tax bracket, which captures most Ontarian seniors. Overall, 93% of Ontarians will see tax reductions. But more importantly, we are putting forward a package that will create some 600,000 jobs in this province.

I say to the member opposite, we hear from people too, all the time, in support of this package. We hear of the need to create jobs. We hear of the need for a fairer, better and cleaner tax system. That's what we're doing. This will give Ontario a better future with more jobs, higher incomes and more capital investment.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Final supplementary.

Ms. Andrea Horwath: I've actually heard from seniors across Ontario. Gary Wallace writes this: "As a retired pensioner, I find it ... hard, as it is, to pay for ... hydro and heating oil now."

Bill Stratton in Oshawa says: "I am retired and ... on a fixed income. I cannot afford to pay additional taxes on things that I normally don't pay taxes on now."

Jane deHaan from Sudbury adds, "For retired persons such as myself, there will be a very significant increase in my cost of living."

Why won't this government come clean and reveal how much the tax on home heating will cost seniors like Bill and like Jane?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: Without knowing the individuals, I would suggest that they will, in fact, see an overall reduction in the amount of taxes they pay. The leader of the third party can try to frame an issue and can deal with one part of the package and not the other, but this government will not.

We have brought forward a package that will benefit senior citizens, that will lower taxes for most of them, that will lower their property taxes, that will lower their income taxes and that will create jobs for their children and their grandchildren. That is what we are called upon in these difficult times to do. Leaders cannot shirk that responsibility.

We will continue to work in the interest of all Ontarians with a package of tax reform, tax cuts and an overall tax reduction that will create some 600,000 net new jobs, improve incomes, improve capital investment and make this province a better place for the children and grandchildren—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mr. Randy Hillier: My question is for the Minister of Finance. The Liberals and this ministry are a disgrace. Their private meetings with their Liberal friends are not public hearings. This minister has undertaken the largest single tax grab in this province's history. He's a disgrace. He hasn't brought it to the people of Thunder Bay or Sault Ste. Marie or North Bay. He's hiding behind those private Liberal meetings. This Liberal government is gutless and acting cowardly. Bring public meetings throughout this province—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I just ask the honourable member to withdraw his comment, please.

Mr. Randy Hillier: I withdraw.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The member is right. It is important to meet with people, and I talked to a number of my members just in the gist of question period. A number of seniors' clubs, the Mississauga Chinese Business Association, the association of Pakistani professionals—these are examples of the types of people we have been seeing. We will indeed have further public hearings, as we have, and have the same amount of hearings we've had on previous fall budget bills.

I will remind the member opposite: This government is resolved to create jobs. This government is resolved to create a tax system that is fairer and cleaner. This government is resolved to improve investment opportunities, create jobs, and lower taxes for people of modest incomes, and that's why we brought forward this package that, in fact, cuts taxes some $3.4 billion—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary? The member from Thornhill.

Mr. Peter Shurman: Private meetings with your friends in whatever riding are not public hearings. I have had a public meeting in my riding under my tutelage, and I looked for someone to speak in favour of the HST and could not find a soul.

At least my constituents had a chance to meet in public. Not so the ones you've muzzled in Eglinton—Lawrence and in York Centre, as you've muzzled the members who represent those ridings. You answer questions about the HST the way you've treated me for the last two months on the Windsor Energy Centre. You, sir, are a contemptible liar and you don't deserve to be in here.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member from Thornhill to withdraw his comment, please.

Mr. Peter Shurman: Not until that member calls public hearings—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I ask the honourable member to withdraw his comment.

Mr. Peter Shurman: No, Speaker, I will not withdraw that comment.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I have no choice but to name Peter Shurman, the member from Thornhill, and ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort him from the chamber, please.

Mr. Shurman was escorted from the chamber.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): New question.

CHILDREN'S AID SOCIETIES

Mr. Gilles Bisson: My question is to the Minister of Children and Youth Services. Yesterday in this House I raised the case of Payukotayno. I raised the case of the 80-some attempted suicides that we've had on James Bay over the last year. I raised with you what it's going to mean if Payukotayno ends up having to shut its doors in mid-December. There will be no one there to answer the phone when a family, a child or a police officer calls in order to try to deal with a child at risk.

My question to you is this, and I ask you again: Are you prepared to respond to the funding requests that have been put forward by Payukotayno and other child and family services across the north that face similar situations?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: Let me tell you, as I had an opportunity to say yesterday, that the ministry staff are currently working on-site in Moosonee with the agency to identify short- and long-term strategies that will not compromise child safety.

I can tell you that we have been working very closely with all of our agencies across the north. In fact this agency, Payukotayno, is a multi-service agency that delivers both child protection and youth and mental health services. We continue to work with them closely to make sure we can have better outcomes for kids across the province.

Aboriginal youth face a number of challenges. We work very closely; I've been working with the Chiefs of Ontario. We've been working in partnership with a variety of ministries to tackle an issue that has not been tackled for many, many years. We're committed to better outcomes for kids. That means we need to do—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Gilles Bisson: Minister, you speak about better outcomes for kids. What kids want is to be able to be safe when they wake up in the morning and again when they go to bed at night. The reality is that we've had over 80 attempted suicides, and you know as well as I do that Payukotayno is underfunded by at least $4 million. I'm told by Toby Beck, the director, and others I've met with that they're not able to respond to their current mandate as a result of your underfunding. On top of that, you're going to reduce their funding by another $1 million.

I say to you, we cannot afford to go through another study; we can't afford to go through another process. We need to know from you now, will the kids of James Bay and other children across northern Ontario have the telephone answered when they're in crisis, or are we going to expect to see what we see coming now in mid-December with Payukotayno?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: Let me assure this House that children across the north who face a wide range of challenging issues will be responded to. We are committed to the kids of Ontario, and that is precisely why we are working so hard each and every day, whether it's in our regional offices, whether it is myself with my colleague the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs, whether it is reaching out to the Chiefs of Ontario and to the leadership in this province who are looking for solutions. I invite you—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Hamilton East will please come to order.

Mr. Paul Miller: Speaker, she's not answering the question.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Don't challenge the Speaker, please. As the members know, if they're dissatisfied with an answer that any ministry gives they have the ability to file the appropriate paperwork and ask for a late show.

Minister?

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: I know the member opposite cares about the kids in his community. I care about those kids too. Our government cares about those kids. That's why we've invested significant dollars year over year and doubled the funding to aboriginal children's aid societies.

Is there more to do? Absolutely, yes. Are we at the table doing that work 100%? I invite my friends opposite to join us as we forge a new pathway to deliver better services and have better outcomes for these kids so that we don't continue to have the history that we've had in this province. We need to move forward, and we're committed to doing that.

FLU IMMUNIZATION

Mr. Eric Hoskins: My question is for the Minister of Health and Long-Term Care. With the announcement yesterday that all Ontarians over six months of age are now eligible for the H1N1 vaccine, there will no doubt be lineups at public clinics. Families who have waited to get their shots are anxious to protect their families.

Throughout the rollout of the vaccine, we've heard about the challenges in getting more vaccine out to family doctors in our communities. I should say that Toronto Public Health did an excellent job in getting H1N1 vaccine out to the clinic where I used to work. It enabled me to vaccinate, on a volunteer basis, more than 100 high-priority residents of St. Paul's last week, including many young children as well as clients of Wychwood Open Door, a drop-in centre serving homeless and socially isolated people in St. Paul's.

Getting your vaccine from your family doctor is a great option and may save some time for families. Could the minister please update this House on the number of doctors now offering the vaccine?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I want to start by saying that we have now successfully completed the sequenced phase-in of the H1N1 vaccination program. Never before have we vaccinated so many people in so short a time: 2.5 million people have received their H1N1 vaccination in the past three weeks.

Applause.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: Thank you.

Starting today, as the member said, all Ontarians aged six months and over are eligible to receive the vaccine, and we are relying on Ontario's doctors to help us get that work done. They've been doing an excellent job, and I want to thank them for their hard work.

There are now more than 4,200 health care providers across the province providing the vaccine, one of them an MPP: Thank you, Dr. Hoskins. Ontarians who want to get the H1N1 flu shot should call their doctor first or go online at ontario.ca/flu to find information about a clinic in their community. Our public health—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Eric Hoskins: At the beginning of the rollout of the H1N1 vaccine, some public clinics had long lines of people waiting hours to receive their shots. More recently, we've seen these lines dwindle in many places, with some public clinics just seeing a trickle of residents coming in for their shots. It is essential that we push ahead to ensure that as many Ontarians as possible get their H1N1 flu shot. We need to ensure that our most vulnerable are protected and that workplaces remain productive.

Now that the government has expanded eligibility for the vaccine, the challenge is to get the word out to Ontarians to roll up their sleeves and get their shot. Could the minister outline how she plans to get the message to Ontarians that it's important to get your H1N1 flu shot?

Hon. Deborah Matthews: My honourable colleague raises a very good point. It's essential that we continue to remind Ontarians of how important it is to get that shot. Recent opinion polls show that somewhere between 45% and 50% of Ontarians are planning to get the vaccine. We need to do better than that. Getting the shot is the single most important thing someone can do to protect not only themselves but the people around them, so we're going to continue to encourage Ontarians to get the vaccine.

Later this week we're launching ads in more than 160 newspapers. We're going to reach out to colleges and university campuses and we're going to run radio ads in more than 20 languages to ensure that we inform all Ontarians about the vaccine. We're going to keep working hard to make sure we get as many Ontarians vaccinated as we possibly can.

TAXATION

Mr. Jerry J. Ouellette: My question is for the Minister of Revenue. On two separate occasions, you've stood in this Legislature and stated that registration fees were exempt for hockey players. However, regular ice fees are 10 times the cost of registration fees. From Thunder Bay to Sault Ste. Marie, hockey is going to be substantially impacted by the increase of the HST. Will you commit to allowing province-wide hearings so that those hockey leagues in Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie and throughout the entire province have an opportunity to express the impact?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank my colleague for the question. I'd like to repeat what I've already said in the House, and it's important for us under the tax reform to understand this. If a parent is registering their child for minor sports today and there is no GST, there will be no HST. If a municipality provides—

Interjections.

Hon. John Wilkinson: As I was saying before I was interrupted, it is important for people to understand the nature of our tax reform. If a municipality is providing ice time, for example, for children who are 14 or under or people who are disabled, today there is no GST charged and, as a result, there will be no HST charged. But it is important to remember that when a particular municipality provides that service, if it is an area where they have to charge the HST, that municipality now for the first time will receive the input tax credits or the tax rebates provided to municipalities. So it's important for them to re-price their services—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary? The member from Burlington.

Mrs. Joyce Savoline: To the minister: It's a good thing you're talking about municipalities. You know, private meetings are not public consultations. Your HST scheme will bring great hardships to municipalities. Why are you only rebating them 78% when the federal government rebates them 100%? You have not given the people of this province or the leaders of their municipalities the opportunity for public consultations. Will the minister table any minutes or Hansard of any of your so-called public meetings?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to say to our municipalities that have—

Interjections.

Hon. John Wilkinson: Since 1961, we have had this PST system. You know that when a municipality buys a fire truck there's no PST, but when they buy a police car, there is. So when we do our tax reform, we will have achieved a 78% rebate to make municipalities whole. Do you know what it is in other provinces that have the HST for municipalities? It's zero or 50%. But here in the province of Ontario—and I say to our mayors who are visiting today—we have achieved a 78% rebate, to put them exactly back to the position they were in.

I've talked to municipalities right across this great province and they are telling me that they are particularly pleased that when we made this tax reform, we took their concerns into consideration and made sure that municipalities, universities, social services, hospitals and school boards are all receiving rebates to make sure they're in the same position they were in before—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

ELECTRONIC HEALTH INFORMATION

M me France Gélinas: My question is to the Acting Premier. Yesterday, Liberal MPPs blocked motions at the public accounts committee that would have called Premier's office staff as witnesses into eHealth. Liberal MPPs had marching orders and they followed them. Without saying a word, without any debate, without defending their actions, they voted against bringing witnesses from the Premier's office and former eHealth executives to be called to answer questions as to what went wrong at eHealth. Silence was their response because their actions could not be defended.

My question is simple: Why is the McGuinty government shutting down the only avenue that Ontarians have to get to the bottom of what went wrong at eHealth, learn from it, make sure we never do it again and turn the page?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I appreciate the question the member asked. I will refer her to the Auditor General's report. This has had a thorough—

Hon. Gerry Phillips: It's very comprehensive.

Hon. Dwight Duncan: It's a very comprehensive report, a very thorough review of that situation. There's no doubt that better oversight was needed. We have taken a number of steps to ensure that there's better oversight. We're also committed to the principles of eHealth, to the principles of putting online our health records, to move the file forward. A good portion of the money that has been spent has in fact yielded some important steps forward for us as we move to greater digitalization of our health records. This government remains committed to managing and moving forward on this very important initiative for all Ontarians.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

M me France Gélinas: What the minister seems to say is that when the auditor does his review it's always good and it should stop there, but this is not how this House works. The reports come to public accounts, we get to hear witnesses, we get to clarify questions and make recommendations to this House. By blocking witnesses from coming, he is blocking this committee from doing their work.

There are e-mails between Sarah Kramer and Dr. Hudson that mentioned the Premier being totally onside. There is mention of Sacha Bhatia from the Premier's office that says that she loved the infamous $25,000 speech from Sarah Kramer. Through freedom of information we know that Jamison Steeve from the Premier's office met with some eHealth consultants, met some lobbyists. But why were the Liberal MPPs at public accounts told to shut up and shut down calling the Premier's staff, Sarah Kramer and Dr. Hudson to answer questions as to what went wrong at eHealth?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Health.

Hon. Deborah Matthews: I'm actually happy for the question because it gives me an opportunity to highlight just how important it is that we proceed with eHealth. It's actually working in our fight against H1N1. Doctors who do have electronic medical records are able to quickly identify the people who are in our high-priority groups and get them into the office for a shot immediately. Here's what Dr.

Marcus Law, a family health team doctor in Toronto, told CTV last night: "Think about going back to 10,000 paper charts and just flip through every chart and find out which patient has the shot, which patient has diabetes and should receive the H1N1 shot. I can actually track now how many of my seniors, how many of my patients over 65 years old have not received the seasonal flu shot yet." This is just one example of how our investments in electronic health—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: My question is to the Minister of Revenue. Residents in my riding of Huron—Bruce have been receiving e-mails that I feel, in my view, are deliberately misleading about the HST. One e-mail in particular attempts to play on the concerns of seniors. This e-mail claims to have researched how the HST will affect seniors. The result is full of misinformation. The e-mail claims that home telephone fees will increase, and it makes the same claim about cable television and admission to sporting events. These claims are just not factual. The rate of taxation on these items will remain exactly the same.

I'll bet you are as astonished as I am that people would want to mislead our seniors. Would the minister tell us if seniors—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): I'd just ask the honourable member to withdraw the comment.

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: Certainly. I would withdraw that comment.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): No, you need to say, "I withdraw."

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: I withdraw, yes.

Would the minister tell us—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Minister?

Hon. John Wilkinson: I want to thank my colleague for the question. I'd say to seniors that if they go to ontario.ca/taxchange they'll hear the whole story, not the half-story that is out there in some of these viral e-mails that are out there trying to get our seniors upset. That's not true. It seems that the—

Interjections.

Hon. John Wilkinson: The website shall set you free. That's why I say to seniors, what they'll find is that some 93% of Ontarians will receive a personal income tax cut on January 1, as long as we get the bill in front of this House passed. That's why we have to get it done before January. There are people who don't want to see the personal tax cuts. As well, it's important for us—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

Supplementary?

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: Many seniors in my riding across Ontario are living on fixed incomes and there have been a number of chain e-mails, letters to the editor and articles looking at preferred meals under $4 as very important to seniors. Newspapers are also an important way seniors connect with their community and follow local and national events. Recently our government announced tax exemptions for newspapers and meals under $4.

But I must say that I'm tired of hearing the Leader of Opposition calling this a greedy tax grab on seniors. This is the leader of the same party that voted against seniors yesterday when they voted against a private member's bill that would assist seniors.

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Stop the clock.

The member from Huron—Bruce.

Mrs. Carol Mitchell: Minister, are items that seniors depend on going to cost more without getting more?

Hon. John Wilkinson: Seniors in this province have a very long memory. Those seniors on fixed incomes, those who are struggling day by day, remember when a previous government cut welfare rates 22% overnight. They will never forget what happened to seniors who were at the margins when they were treated—

Interjections.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member from Lanark will please come to order.

Minister.

Hon. John Wilkinson: What seniors are happy about, when I have a chance to talk to them, and especially when they get to go to a website that tells the whole story, is that we are more than doubling what they receive today in regard to the GST rebate. That's tax-free money. We're more than doubling the property sales tax—the property credit for seniors. It's a way that we can honour our seniors. The vast majority of seniors have income. That means that they'll qualify for the—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Stop the clock for a moment. This is question period and it's the opportunity to ask questions of ministers. There are some off conversations taking place between members and ministers, and I would just encourage that we have two lobbies available on either side. Those discussions would be much better taking place out there.

TAXATION

Mrs. Elizabeth Witmer: My question is to the Minister of Finance. Despite the fact that about 76% of the people in the province of Ontario are totally opposed to the HST, you have refused to hold public hearings throughout the province of Ontario. Your actions appear arrogant and they appear contemptuous of the people in this province who thought they lived in a democracy.

I ask you today, will you listen to those people? Will you travel throughout the province and hold public hearings?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I do think it's important to have a civil debate about this issue, and I applaud those who have concerns about the HST. That's why my colleagues and I have, since the introduction of the budget bill—I'd remind the member opposite that prior to the introduction of the budget, I had 15 public hearings across Ontario. Subsequent to the budget, I have engaged in a number of open meetings, as have my colleagues. We've had—I guess you could call this a debate, but we're attempting to have a debate on this issue in the House. We will have the same amount of public hearings on this fall bill as we've had in the past.

But I say to the member opposite, do not underestimate this government's will, working with our federal partners, to create more than 600,000 jobs and to lower taxes effective January 1, 2010—a few short weeks from now. We believe these are the important steps to take to help get this economy moving again.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: To the finance minister as well: The businesses in the Barrie and Simcoe county area are leaders in the tourism industry here in Ontario, as are business leaders in the Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock area. They are all adamantly opposed to your HST tax grab and the negative impact it will have on the tourism industry.

Why will you not allow public hearings in tourism communities like Barrie, Lindsay, North Bay and the Muskokas so that you can hear how your tax grab will destroy thousands of tourism jobs in these tourism communities and not create the bogus and fantasy world job projections that you are trying to spin on the citizens of this province?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: We continue to engage in ongoing dialogue with the tourism industry from across Ontario. We have responded to their concerns I think in a very fulsome fashion, along with a number of other industry groups, citizens' organizations and so on. I believe, and I think my colleagues share this view, that the importance of creating 600,000 jobs is important. We believe this is the right course. We will have the same amount of public hearings on this fall budget bill as we've had on past ones.

I'd remind my friend and colleague opposite that when their party was in government, they time-allocated more than 60% of their bills—budget bills with no public hearings, third reading time-allocated, and we are operating under the rules that that party established.

That being said, we will continue to meet—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. New question.

TAXATION

Ms. Andrea Horwath: My question is to the Minister of Finance. The HST will make life less affordable for all Ontarians, but it will have a disproportionate impact on First Nations. Without consulting, the McGuinty Liberals have surrendered decision-making powers to the federal government, a move that could end the point-of-sale exemption for off-reserve purchases.

Grand Council Chief Mahdahbee says this: "Ontario and Canada have publicly pledged their commitment to helping eradicate First Nations poverty, but this cash grab will contribute to it."

How is a new tax that could cost Ontario's already struggling First Nations families thousands of dollars a step in the right direction?

I think the member is right, that that is the appropriate way to do it. Mr. Flaherty and I have had the opportunity to discuss the issue on two occasions. We will continue to work with the federal government, and our hope is that the federal government will agree to allow that method of collection to go on.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Ms. Andrea Horwath: Ontario First Nations are united in their opposition to the HST. I spoke to Chief Toulouse as well. Ontario Regional Chief Toulouse says this: "Both the provincial and federal governments failed to consult." Grand Council Chief Kelly says this: "You cannot pay lip service to improving relationships ... one day and the next day completely disregard our rights and the interests of our people."

What does a backroom deal with the Harper Conservatives without any consultation with the First Nations of Ontario say about this government's commitment, or lack thereof, to a new relationship with Ontario's aboriginal people?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: To the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs.

Hon. Brad Duguid: I'm pleased to respond to that question. As the Minister of Finance said, we are working shoulder to shoulder with First Nation leaders and communities across this province when it comes to standing up for them and the need for them to have that point-of-sale exemption.

The finance minister has written to the Minister of Finance. He has spoken to the Minister of Finance federally, as I have to my colleague the federal minister of aboriginal affairs. Our revenue minister has also been in touch with his colleague.

We're doing everything we can to stand by our First Nations on this particular issue. The decision ultimately lies in the hands of the federal government on how to collect this tax. Aboriginal leaders know that. We're going to continue to push for them, and we're going to continue to work with them. We're proud of our new relationship that we're building with our First Nation communities.

IMMIGRANT SERVICES

Mrs. Linda Jeffrey: My question is for the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Peel is one of the most diverse regions in Ontario, and it continues to be an attractive destination for newcomers. Over the last six years, 145,000 newcomers have settled in Peel region. Peel offers great strength through its diversity. Our newcomers have the potential to help us deliver a stronger, more vibrant Ontario. They have the ability to help us gain access to new markets, new talent and excellent leadership.

For Ontario to benefit from such talent, we need to invest in individuals from those diverse communities who are eager to take the next step in life and move into important leadership positions in our communities and our job force. These opportunities need to come from the business communities, from public organizations, the non-profit sector and all levels of government. Will the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration tell us how he will make more leadership positions more available in Ontario?

Hon. Michael Chan: I want to thank the member from Brampton—Springdale. In Ontario we know that diversity is our greatest strength. This is why we support programs such as the DiverseCity project. This is a project aimed at bringing such potential to the front line in business, in the non-profit sector and in government. Together with the work of the Maytree Foundation and the Toronto City Summit Alliance, we are making significant progress.

According to the latest report, more than 300 individuals have made it on to public, private and non-profit boards. One hundred and forty more individuals have become spokespersons, helping to ensure a broad range of media voices.

We cannot afford to leave the best and the brightest on the sidelines, and we are not.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Supplementary?

Mrs. Linda Jeffrey: In Peel region, and specifically in Brampton, we have many talented individuals with a wealth of experience who are ready to take the next step to move into those leadership positions in the community. Many of the newcomers have had exposure to resources and support services such as settlement services, language training and our bridge training programs. They have benefited from the programs and such support is clearly a component to their ultimate success in their career path. This only reiterates the necessity and importance of such services.

Peel is the second-largest region in Ontario, with an extremely culturally diverse makeup where newcomers represent 49% of the population. That's why it's vital to invest in Peel and that's why it's vital to invest in Brampton. There's a clear need for investments and there are clear benefits to investing. Will the minister commit to making much-needed investments in Brampton to ensure that newcomers have the right access to settlement services, language training and bridge training?

Hon. Michael Chan: In order to help newcomers succeed, we must invest in prioritized areas. These prioritized areas are settlement services, language training and bridge training.

Since 2003 we have invested over $700,000 in newcomer settlement services in Brampton. We have also invested more than $33 million in language training to support school boards in Peel. We also committed to bridge training programs. This is why in our recent budget we allocated an additional $50 million over two years for such training.

For a prosperous and vibrant Ontario, we know these investments matter.

TAXATION

Mr. John O'Toole: My question is for the Minister of Finance. You continually promise this big promise of some 600,000 jobs, but let's have a reality check. Today in Ontario there are over 300,000 people—families, indeed, Minister—out of work and you have no plan for the economy—a huge deficit. Minister, it's clear that no one in Ontario actually believes you after your broken promises—

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The Minister of Culture will come to order, please.

Interjection.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): And Municipal Affairs.

Please continue.

Mr. John O'Toole: Minister, it's clear that no one in Ontario believes you and your message anymore. Whatever your message track is, this is an 8% tax on everything that people buy and use every day. Would you at least throw a lifeline to the member from Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, the member from Northumberland or the member from Peterborough? Have consultations across the province; if not across the province, in those ridings. Tell the people of Ontario the truth, Minister: that this is an 8% increase in the cost of living. What do you have to—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Minister?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: The sad reality is that across many economies around the world many jobs have been lost, including Ontario's. That is precisely why we are compelled to bring in a plan to create jobs. I was delighted when Mr. Mintz's report was released. It had been peer-reviewed by a range of other economists, including Jim Stanford of the CAW—no neo-conservative at all, I might add. Hugh Mackenzie has also spoken about the importance of this type of tax system; and the Daily Bread Food Bank.

Unlike the member opposite, we will engage in a complete and transparent debate. I want to respect the rules of this Parliament, Mr. Speaker, and you yourself. We will continue to engage in the debate. My colleagues in those ridings have indeed had public meetings. I've had the opportunity to attend them and, indeed, one of your members who was thrown out for alleging there was no public—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you. Supplementary?

Mr. Ted Arnott: To the same minister: The undemocratic and authoritarian decision of this government to expedite the passage of Bill 218, their sales tax legislation, without giving the people of Ontario a chance to have their say through extensive public hearings is an assault on our system of parliamentary democracy and an affront to the people of Ontario.

The Premier twice signed the taxpayer protection pledge, promising not to raise taxes, and he has betrayed that promise. The people of Wellington—Halton Hills need to have their say, as do the people who live in Brampton West, before the final vote on Bill 218. Will the minister do the right thing and authorize the finance committee to travel across the province with extensive public hearings and listen to the people of Ontario?

Hon. Dwight Duncan: I have a great deal of respect for my colleague opposite, and I know he has a great deal of respect for this institution. I only wish he had been so strong when his party set the rules as they exist today. I only wish you had spoken up at the time. I only wish you had talked about the time when your government was time-allocating budget bills, refusing third reading debate, time-allocating second reading debate, changing the rules of the Legislature and not having public consultations around the province.

My friend opposite is a good member of provincial Parliament and I believe very genuine in his concern. We will have those public hearings; we'll continue to do hearings and public consultations, as we have been doing, but I don't want to leave any misconception: We want to proceed with the tax cuts on January 1 and—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Thank you.

There being no deferred votes, this House stands recessed until 1 p.m. this afternoon.

The House recessed from 1137 to 1300.

INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I'm pleased to rise today to welcome a group of folks from the Ingersoll Fusion centre. In the gallery today we have James Timlin, the CAO for the town of Ingersoll; Bonnie Ward, director of parks and recreation for the town of Ingersoll; and Jason Smith, manager of the Fusion centre. We also have a number of youth that have been members of the Fusion Youth Centre since it was opened in February 2006. I want to commend them on their contributions to the centre and welcome them here to Queen's Park, and I ask the Legislative Assembly to do the same.

Ms. Sylvia Jones: It is my pleasure to introduce my aunt and uncle, Vic and Mary Campbell, who are here to listen to the debate on site 41. It is a pleasure to welcome you to the Ontario Legislature.

Mr. John O'Toole: It's my privilege to introduce two of my guests who will be here momentarily, I hope. They are Tammy Rankin, who is the manager of the Durham Elder Abuse Network, who will be here to listen and I hope support my private member's bill this afternoon, Bill 188; as well as Detective Sergeant Philip Lillie, who is from the Durham Regional Police enforcement unit. I thank them both for attending here today.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PORK INDUSTRY

Mr. Ernie Hardeman: I rise today to welcome Ontario Pork to Queen's Park. I'm looking forward to meeting with them this afternoon to discuss the state of the industry and what we can do to help Ontario's pork farmers. I want to thank them for coming here to update all the members on the challenges they are facing.

In 2008, Ontario's pork industry contributed $4.7 billion and 33,000 jobs, from farm to fork, to the provincial economy. They are a major part of our agriculture industry and we know that what affects them has an impact on many other parts of our agricultural and rural economies, including feed suppliers, equipment manufacturers and many rural businesses.

As we all know, the last couple of years have been very difficult for hog farmers. They have had high input costs, low market prices, and then this year they were hit with the H1N1.

Over 98% of Canada's farms are family-owned and operated, and Ontario's swine industry certainly reflects that. It means that when these farmers are in trouble, they risk not only losing their farm and their livelihood, but in many cases their home.

I want to encourage all members of this Legislature to take the time later today to meet with Ontario Pork in rooms 228 and 230, and find out about the challenges that our farmers are facing.

I also want to take this opportunity to encourage all Ontarians, in this Legislature and at home, to support our hard-working hog farmers and put pork on your fork.

HOSPITAL FUNDRAISER

Mrs. Linda Jeffrey: I'm pleased today to speak about a charity fundraiser that recently occurred in my community. On September 26 in Brampton, a sellout event featuring one of the world's top 10 stand-up comics, Russell Peters, took place.

Russell Peters, one of Brampton's own, was quoted as saying "No matter where I go in the world, Brampton is always home. It's where I grew up, where I went to school and where my mom still lives today."

Peters said, Brampton has changed a lot since his family first moved there in 1975 "and I'm pleased that we finally have the world-class hospital facility that we deserve."

When someone like Russell Peters, with an international reputation, takes the time to do a benefit concert in support of a Brampton hospital, it sends a signal to everyone who works in health care in my community. His actions and his works not only support high-quality health care but also boost the morale of workers who deliver our health care.

Russell Peters's performance exceeded our expectations. The sold-out performance raised more than $425,000, as well as raising the profile of my community.

It's not true that you can never go home. Russell Peters, who is busy filling venues in Mumbai, Sydney and New York City, did come home and made a huge, positive contribution to his community. For that, the people of Brampton are truly proud of Russell Peters, his generosity and his Brampton roots.

TAXATION

Mr. Norm Miller: I rise today to share the concerns of my constituents in Parry Sound—Muskoka regarding this government's proposed harmonized sales tax. Here is a small sampling of the hundreds of e-mails I have received:

"Norm,

"I am writing to you to advise that the harmonizing of the DST/PST will be a disaster to the elderly on fixed incomes. The extra 8% increase in heating and hydro expenses will force me and others out of our homes. I personally am at the wall now as to household expenses."

That was from Robert in Port Sydney.

Dick Smyth writes:

"It costs me $3,500 to heat our house in Muskoka. With this shabby, shady, secret deal, you have automatically boosted my annual cost $280.

"I usually buy $30 of gasoline at a time every few days. Again, in the unlikely event gasoline prices remain stable, that's an extra $2.40 every time I go to the pumps.

"If this is not a tax grab as you claim, then why don't you reduce the PST component of the HST from 8% to whatever lower level would make the whole change tax-neutral.

"You say that the impact will be lessened by a $1,000 rebate. That's for one year (coincidentally an election year.) What about 2011, 2012 etc. etc.

"Like so much done by your government (the pit bull ban, the ban on young drivers) you have not stopped to think it through!"

It is clear that there are many concerns out there, and this government should take the time to hear from the people across this province with public hearings.

SCHOOL POOLS

Mr. Peter Tabuns: I rise today to inform people about a fundraising event at the Earl Grey Senior Public School in my riding. Earl Grey has a swimming pool—one of nine Toronto District School Board pools that are threatened with closing. In fact, this pool will be permanently drained and closed on December 31, 2009, unless the public takes action.

Earl Grey's parent council and members of the Riverdale community are committed to saving Earl Grey's fantastic pool. The pool has a long and rich history within the community, and thousands of students have learned to swim in its waters. An empty pool is of no use to future swimmers.

On Saturday, November 28, between 1 p.m. and 4 p.m., the school council is inviting Earl Grey families, alumni, future swimmers, plus community leaders and business supporters from our community to visit Earl Grey school to collectively send a message. Each message costs $25. Donors can make and put the message on a bottle or paint a supporting brick at the pool.

Just a historical note: Schools that were built in Toronto a number of decades ago that did not have adequate grounds for other sports facilities were given pools so that the children who went there would have that sort of physical outlet, that physical activity. It is wrong that this Liberal government does not provide funding for pools. It is an affront to the people who go to our schools.

NORTH YORK HARVEST FOOD BANK

Mr. Mike Colle: Last week, I was very excited about attending an event at the North York Harvest Food Bank in my riding. The event was organized by the public relations students at Humber College who brought all kinds of canned goods and donations to the food bank. They were all decked out in Christmas gear with their elf costumes on, and they were promoting a reminder for all of us to give at this time of year to our food banks.

I was also able to deliver a donation on behalf of the caring seniors from Caboto Terrace and Casa DelZotto in my riding. These are seniors who, despite being on fixed incomes, found enough time and generosity to donate gift certificates to the North York Harvest Food Bank. So here's to seniors with the students at Humber College showing how important it is to be generous.

The North York Harvest Food Bank distributes one million pounds of food each year and serves over 60 community programs in the area. It's a very generous, hard-working staff that helps a lot of people in need.

I'd like to thank the students of Humber College for their great generosity and also the seniors at Casa DelZotto and Caboto Terrace. This is a great example of seniors getting together with students and helping those amongst us who need a little bit of help at this time of year.

TAXATION

Mr. John O'Toole: I remind this House that seniors will be among Ontarians hardest hit by this new harmonized sales tax of 13%. We should all recall that November is the month during which we respect seniors in the province of Ontario.

Seniors will be paying 8% more for essential products such as electricity, home heating and gasoline. Health and wellness services will be taxed as well. They are the least able to afford this increase because most seniors are on a fixed income and obviously will have to make choices between paying McGuinty's new tax or having their physical fitness treatment.

This is also a tax on retirement savings and related services such as mutual fund fees, insurance premiums for the home, lawyers' fees, estate planning and accounting, beyond the initial initiatives that we know are going to be the everyday items, like cable TV.

A typical senior couple living in their own home would pay as much as $2,800 per year with this new tax. That's the real story that's not being told. It's no wonder that 72.5% of seniors surveyed by CARP in Ontario and BC are opposed to the harmonized sales tax.

I would urge this House to respect the peace of mind and financial security of seniors by delaying this McGuinty tax grab. Please listen to the people of Ontario. Take their advice and hold public hearings.

PAN AM GAMES

Ms. Sophia Aggelonitis: Like so many across Ontario, I was absolutely thrilled to hear the great news of our province's successful bid for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

This sporting event will benefit many areas in Ontario, including the great city of Hamilton. The 2015 Pan Am Games will bring Hamilton significant investment from all levels of government and partners to build new sport facilities and infrastructure. Hamilton has been identified to be the home of a new indoor velodrome, a pool and athletics stadium. These state-of-the-art sports facilities will not only contribute to a successful 2015 Pan Am Games but will continue to keep Hamilton and our communities healthy and active for many years to come.

In addition, the Pan Am Games will increase jobs and tourism to boost our local economies.

I'd like to congratulate Premier Dalton McGuinty; Minister Margarett Best; the mayor of Hamilton, Fred Eisenberger; David Braley; David Adames and many others who have worked so hard to make Ontario's bid successful. Their dedication, vision and hard work have helped to bring tremendous opportunity to Ontario.

FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN

Mr. Reza Moridi: Our government has made significant progress in improving our public education system. We have reduced class sizes to ensure students receive more attention. Students are now earning higher test scores, and we are making sure more students are graduating from high school. The results are clear: The graduation rate was only 68% in 2003 but today has risen to 77%.

But we want to help even more students reach their graduation ceremony. Our full-day kindergarten program will help to achieve that.

Dr. Charles Pascal found that one in four children start grade 1 behind their peers, and many never catch up. But studies have proven that early education programs have many long-term benefits in cognitive and social skills.

Our full-day kindergarten program will put students on the path to success and keep them from being at risk of falling behind. This important program will start in September 2010 for up to 35,000 four- and five-year-old students. It will be fully implemented for all kindergarten students by 2015.

This full-day learning program will help our students succeed and ensure Ontario's long-term competitive edge.

FLU IMMUNIZATION

Mr. Wayne Arthurs: It was announced this week that the H1N1 vaccine is now available to all Ontarians, regardless of age or medical condition. But as the Premier has noted, our biggest challenge remains: ensuring that all 13 million people in Ontario are willing to roll up their sleeves and get this shot.

It is essential that everyone knows how important this is. The vaccine is safe. Getting it will ensure that we stop the spread of the H1N1 flu virus and keep Ontarians healthy.

There are also other measures people should take to stop the spread of germs. For example, it's important to wash your hands often with soap and water, especially after coughing or sneezing. People should sneeze or cough into their sleeves and not in their hands. And if you're sick, you should stay home from work or school and contact your health care provider or Telehealth Ontario.

Our government has committed whatever resources are necessary to make sure we can get a shot in the arm of every Ontarian who wants it. I encourage everyone to roll up their sleeve and get the H1N1 flu vaccine.

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES

Mr. Garfield Dunlop: I beg leave to present a report from the Standing Committee on Estimates.

The Clerk-at-the-Table (Ms. Tonia Grannum): Mr. Dunlop from the Standing Committee on Estimates reports the following resolutions:

"Resolved that supply in the following amounts and to defray the expenses of the following ministries be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2010:

"Ministry of Economic Development—

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Dispense? Agreed? Agreed.

Report deemed adopted.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

TOBY'S ACT (RIGHT TO BE FREE

FROM DISCRIMINATION AND HARASSMENT

BECAUSE OF GENDER IDENTITY), 2009 /

LOI TOBY DE 2009 SUR LE DROIT

À L'ABSENCE DE DISCRIMINATION

ET DE HARCÈLEMENT FONDÉS

SUR L'IDENTITÉ DE GENRE

Ms. DiNovo moved first reading of the following bill:

Bill 224,

An Act to amend the Human Rights Code respecting gender identity / Projet de loi 224, Loi modifiant le Code des droits de la personne en ce qui concerne l'identité de genre.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

First reading agreed to.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): The member for a short statement.

Ms. Cheri DiNovo: Thanks to Rainbow Health, Trans Health, Georgina Bencsik and Egale, all of whom are in the House today.

This bill amends the Human Rights Code to specify that every person has a right to equal treatment without discrimination because of gender identity with respect to: services, goods and facilities—section 1 of the code; accommodation—subsection 2(1) of the code; contracting—section 3 of the code; employment—subsection 5(1) of the code; and membership in a trade union, trade or occupational association or self-governing profession—section 6 of the code.

The bill also amends the code to specify that every person has a right to be free from harassment because of gender identity with respect to accommodation and employment.

CHILD PROTECTION /

PROTECTION DES ENFANTS

Hon. Brad Duguid: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker: It's a unanimous consent statement. I believe that we have unanimous consent that up to five minutes be allotted to each party to speak on children's rights day.

The Speaker (Hon. Steve Peters): Agreed? Agreed.

Hon. Laurel C. Broten: It is a privilege to rise today to mark the United Nations Universal Children's Day and Canada's National Child Day, which is tomorrow, November 20.

Universal Children's Day has a long-standing history and has been recognized around the world for more than five decades. In Canada, we have officially marked November 20 as National Child Day since the passage of the Child Day Act in 1994. National Child Day commemorates the United Nations' adoption of the Declaration of the Rights of the Child in 1959 and the Convention on the Rights of the Child in 1989, and we are here today celebrating its 20th anniversary.

Cette journée représente notre engagement commun, en tant que nation, en faveur du respect des droits des enfants. Ces droits existent pour que les enfants soient entendus et protégés, et pour qu'ils aient l'occasion de réaliser leur plein potentiel.

This government takes these rights seriously. From protecting children from sexual exploitation with the Child Pornography Reporting Act to providing grade 8 girls with access to the HPV vaccine to doubling our investments in summer jobs for youth through our youth opportunities strategy, we take the responsibility to provide every opportunity and support for kids seriously.

Sur le plan international, lorsque nous examinons les autres instances, nous constatons que des progrès notables ont été accomplis grâce à la Convention relative aux droits de l'enfant.

Par exemple, en Afrique du Sud nous avons assisté à la création d'un système de justice distinct pour les jeunes; en Finlande, il existe plusieurs initiatives s'inspirant de la convention, qu'il s'agisse de l'éducation de la petite enfance, ou encore, d'un plan d'action visant à réduire la pauvreté.

When we look at Ontario, we see many of those same accomplishments. We are transforming the youth justice system in Ontario, and now we too have a dedicated system designed to support youth in conflict with the law. We too are moving ahead with full-day learning for four- and five-year-olds in recognition of the importance of early years in the strong and healthy development of children. We have a poverty reduction strategy enshrined in legislation that focuses first on giving children, youth and their families the support they need to achieve their full potential.

We have set an ambitious goal to reduce the number of children in poverty by 25% in five years. Through programs like the Ontario child benefit, we will lift 90,000 kids and their families out of poverty.