LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MA NITOBA Thursday, 12 June, 1986. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRES ENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BI,..AKE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I' d like to present the Second Report of the Committee on Public Accounts. MR. CLERK, W.

Remnant: Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the following as their Second Report: Your Committee met on Tuesday , June 10, 1986 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Public Accounts of the Province of Manitoba and Supplement for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1985. Your Committee received all information desired by any Member from the Minister , the Provincial Auditor and staff with respect to receipts , expenditures and other matters pertaining to the business of the Province.

The fullest opportunity was accorded to all Members of the Committee to examine vouchers or any document called for and no restriction was placed upon the line of examination. Your Committee finds that the receipts and expenditures of monies have been carefully set forth and all monies properly accounted for. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Niakwa, that the report be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Madam Spea ker, I have a ministerial statement. Madam Speaker, I'd like to take this opportunity to inform the House of an important milestone in the cultural life of Manitoba. Last week in Montreal, the 1986 Governor-General Awards for Literature were announced. For the first 812 time, a book published by a Manitoba publisher received one of the four awards presented by Governor-General Jeanne Sauve.

"Waiting For Saskatchewan," written by Fred Wah and published by Winnipeg's Turnstone Press, receieved the Governor-Gene ral's award for poetry. Selected out of the many hundreds of books of poetry published in Canada last year, this award recognized "Waiting for Saskatchewan" as the best book of poetry published in Canada in English in 1985. "Waiting for Saskatchewan" traces the author's life growing up in rural Saskatchewan.

The Governor-General's awards are Canada's most prestigious literary award, and have a national and international profile. lt is a mark of the growth of the young Manitoba publishing industry that a Manitoba book has received this important award. The publisher of "Waiting for Saskatchewan," Turnstone Press, celebrates its tenth anniversary this year. Turnstone is one of the many publishers operating in Manitoba in both English and French, and all Manitobans can be proud of our publishers' commitment to our cultural life.

In the past 15 years, Manitoba publishers have introduced Manitobans and Canadians to a new world of Manitoba writers and Manitoba themes. They, and the rest of our cultural communi ty, have enriched our lives and helped us to better understand ourselves and each other. Madam Speaker, my department, through programs such as those under the terms of the Canada- Manitoba Communications and Culture ERDA agreement, has a commitment to the continuing growth of our publishing indust ry.

Through these programs, Manitobans and Canadians will have greater access to Manitoba books, and publishers will have great opportunities to expand and strengthen their operations. Through these programs, the groundwork is being laid for Manitoba publishers to continue their important cultural work. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I thank the Minister for her statement and we, on this side of the House, are pleased to see that a Manitoba publisher and a book written by Fred Wah has received such great recognition; and we, too, hope to see that the Manitoba publishers are able to continue to grow in this province. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Today, in Ottawa, the Secretary of State for External Affairs, the Right Honourable Joe Clark, made a statement in the House of Commons on the South Africa situation. In his statement Mr.

Clark indicated that he would be asking provincial governments to join the Government of Canada in ending government procurement of South African products. He also offered provinces an opportunity to provide input with respect to the Commonwealth Leaders' discussions scheduled for early August.

Thursday, 12 Jufle, 19$6 The Government of Manitoba welcomes the action taken by the Federal Government today and will ensure that a supportive policy is in effect here in Manitoba. My information is that our Government Services Department is not aware of any products or services being purchased by our province from South Africa. If there are, those purchases will be stopped at once. Some time ago, Mr. Clark commanded Manitoba for being among the first provinces to remove South African products from Liquor Control Commission outlets.

My colleague, the Attor ney-General, will be making a further announcement with respect to South African-produced liquor products in the House in the near future. The policy of apartheid is immoral and intolerable. The Government of South Africa, which continues to practice it, is cowardly, and worthy only of contempt. lt has served the people of South Africa badly and, as the Eminent Persons' Group has just reported, it is placing at risk the futures of millions of innocent men, women and children. Canada has had a proud tradition of speaking out for social justice in the world.

The Federal Government has a clear responsibility to take a stronger leadership position on this issue in the Commonwealth and with our other allies. Sometimes the best leadership is leadership by example. Last fall, Manitoba suggested to External Affairs that consideration be given to convening a Federal­ Provincial Ministers' meeting to discuss a broad range of options for strengthening Canada's response to the worsening situation in South Africa. I have today reminded Mr.

Clark of that suggestion and have pointed out that such a meeting - held before the Constitutional Conference - would provide an excellent opportunity for provinces to provide the further policy input that the Federal Government has invited. Madam Speaker, I am also tabling a copy of my telex to the Secretary of State. In view of recent developments, members might wish to consid er, by agreement, moving up our discussion of the private member's resolution on this issue, which is now on the Order Paper. Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I thank the Premier for that statement. I'm pleased to lea rn of the initiative of the Federal Government, under the Right Honourable Joe Clark, in acting to set an example of the government's abhorrence toward the apartheid policies of South Africa. This is a non-partisan issue; this is an issue in which all political parties in Canada, and Manitoba, stand united in expressing their abhorrence, in expressing their opposition to the policies of apartheid in South Africa.

We, too, share with the Premier the cause for social and economic justice throughout the world, particularly for all the people in South Africa. We support the initiatives of the Government of Canada and will, indeed, join with the government in ensuring that those initiatives and policies are conformed and implemented here in Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . 813 INTRODUCT ION OF BILLS HON. E. KOSTYRA introduced, by leave, on behalf of the Attorney-General, Bill No. 25,

An Act to amend The Law Society Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Societe du Barreau. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before we proceed to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 28 students of Grade 9 from the Murdoch MacKay Collegiate under the direction of Mrs. Trush. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Transcona. We have 46 students from Grade 5 and 6 from the F. W. Gilbert, Pinawa School. The students are under the direction of Mrs. Hancox. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet.

We have 30 students from Grade 6 from the Austin Mennonite School. The students are under the direction of Mrs. Beverley Wolfe. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gladstone. We have 64 students from Grade 6 from the George Fitton School under the direction of Mrs. McMunn, and the school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Brandon East. On behalf of all the members, I welcome you all to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Manfor Limited MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier. In view of the tabling late yesterday in this House of the Annual Report of Manfor Ltd. which reveals for the period ended December 31, 1985 the staggering loss of $31.3 million on that operation, will the Premier now be removing responsibility for Manfor from his incompetent Minister so that the company can be reorganized and we can stop the hemorraging of taxpayers' money on this corporation? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minis ter. HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, in case there is any do ubt anywhere in this Chamber , I have the fullest of confidence in the Minister responsible for Manfor . Madam Speaker, the problems relating to Manfor are manyfold, involving the need for modernization, the matter of markets. There are a number of challenges that lie ahead of us in order to ensure that Manfor is put on a better footing. This government is prepared to undertake any and all options that will place Manfor in a better position financially. lt is a problem that has confronted Manitoba, unfortunate ly, since the late 1960's.

We are prepared to undertake everything that is reasonable and prudent in order to ensure that

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 Manfor's operations are put in a proper basis with the stewardship of the Minister responsible for Manfor. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the problems of Manfor are, indeed, immense and wide-ranging, but this Minister has proven that he is incapable of understanding . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Yes, I do, indeed, Madam Speaker. He has proven incapable of dealing with them, particularly last year, Madam Speaker, this Minister said MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Question period is not a time for debate.

Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G. FILMON: Yes. The question is, Madam Speaker, since this Minister has proven incapable of dealing with the problems will the First Minister remove the responsibility from him and allow somebody else to do the job? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I answered that question. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, how much more money will the First Minister see being lost in this corporation, taxpayers' money, how much more money will he see being lost before he realizes that his Minister can't handle it and he replaces it with someone else?

Madam Speaker, then I'll begin with a new question. In view of the fact that last year at committee, last June in committee, the Minister responsible for Manfor said, and I quote: "The efforts already under way and those yet to be mounted will, I am satisfied, allow the company to experience even a greater financial turnaround than was recorded in the year under review." That turnaround, Madam Speaker, went from a year­ end loss of $9 million the previous year to $31 million this year. Is that the kind of turnaround that this Premier believes the people of Manitoba ought to have?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. First, I would like to indicate to the Leader of the Oppos ition that he is comparing two different years. One is a 15-month, and one is a 12-month. Madam Speaker , I would point out to the Leader of the Opposition, as well, that in the committee last year, when we were reviewing the year 1984, which reported a loss of some $9.5 million or $9.6 million, the Opposition was all too eager to comment not on the reporting year but the year we were undergoing.

We indicated at that time that there were a number of problems that had come about as a result of deteriorating markets, which were going to create substantial losses for this year. Apart from the fact that we had determined that the financial accounting period of Manfor should be on the calendar year so we are 814 talking about a 15-month year, it was known last year at committee stage. I indicated to the member, and I indicate to the House now, that if you look at the current operating year, we are talking about an operating loss of some $5.2 million, which is a substantial change.

I point out to the member opposite that 1986, this calendar year, is the first calendar year in which the upgrading will take effect, in which the changes in staffing will take effect. This year is the year when you determine, when we will determine, and I should be judged, and the corporation, I suspect, on whether the investment the province has made, on whether the undertakings we've made have been effective. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Premier.

Despite the comments of the Minister responsible, last year in committee he was predicting a loss of $17 million to $18 million for that particular year. The loss was almost double that, Madam Speaker. When is he going to realize that this Minister is incapable of handling these responsibilities and put someone else in who is? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, despite the fact that the Leader of the Opposition does not want to deal with the facts, I would like to answer the question.

Madam Speaker, if the member opposite will review the record, he will learn that the Chairman of the Board indicated that an anticipated $17 million to $18 million was the range that the corporation was predicting at that time. The chairman also indicated, as did the President and Chief Executive Offic er, that in view of the deteriorating market circumstances, that additional losses were possible. I pointed out, and it was reviewed at committee very thoroughly, that the upgrading was not proceeding as it originally had been scheduled.

If the members opposite want a history of what has happened to Manfor since 1982, then let them come to committee when this matter will be reviewed item­ by-item and their questions will be answered. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, asking this Minister to solve the problem is like asking the arsonist to put out the fire, because he knows how it got started. Madam Speaker, my question for the Premier is: how much more loss are the people of Manitoba going to have to bear before he takes action and replaces this Minister? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H.

PAWLEV: Madam Speaker, I would like to just comment in case there's any uncertainty in this Chamb er. Wh en the Leader of the Opposition invites comment as to how the fire got started, it got started as the result of a transaction entered into between former Premier Roblin of the Conservative Party of the Province of Manitoba and one Alexander Kasser. That

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 was how the fire got started, during a time that a former Premier of this province was the Attorney-General and also entered into the negotiations pertaining to the Manfor operation. But, Madam Speaker, insofar as the projections in the future, obviously we are concerned as are all Manitobans about any continued pattern of losses insofar as the Manfor operations . It's why we proceeded with the modernization of the plant and, as the Minister just pointed out, this is the first full calendar year in which that modernization will have taken effect; (2) important staff changes; and

(3) Madam Speaker, we hope as indeed do other sectors of the western economy whether it's potash or oil or agriculture that world prices support economic operations in Western Canada of that nature, such as lumber . Madam Speaker, the report that honourable members have received from the Minister indicates that progress has been made. So rather than resume continued major losses . .. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, this corporation is losing more than $2 million per month . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. G.

FILMON: Yes. MADAM SPEAKER: Question period is not a time for debate. MR. G. FILMON: The question is, this corporation is losing more than $2 million per month . The question to the Premier is: will he explore other alternatives to operating this corporation, selling it to the private sector or bringing in private sector management to try and stop the loss? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the calculations advanced just now by the Leader of the Opposition are not borne out by the correct information just given to this House by the Minister responsible for Manfor .

We are not in the process of losing $2 million each month at the present time. The projections are in fact, as mentioned by the Minister responsible for Manfor , a loss of approximately $5 million during the course of this current year. Too much, but the trend is towards improvement. Madam Speaker, ju st in case there is any doubt, we are prepared to look at all options, whether those options involve public, private partnership, whether they invol ve private entrepreneurship, whether they involve other areas that can be undertaken with respect to improving the financial position of Manfor.

We are prepared to proceed in a pragmatic way in order to ensure in the future improvement insofar as the financial operations are concerned of Manfor. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I have a question to the Minister responsible for Manfor. 815 I do, in my

preamble, want to say maybe the First Minister would want to correct the statement that he said that Manfor was not losing $2 million per month. In fact, in the last three months of the report , they had lost closer to $3 million for that month. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. It is not in order to impugn the accuracy of information conveyed to the House by a Minister. The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, a question to the Minister responsible for Manfor .

In view of the continued hemorrhage of taxpayers ' money at a rate in excess of $2 million a month , Madam Speaker, has the Minister responsible for Manfor offered the Manfor Forestry Complex for sale publicly? Is he currently in negotiations or what is the current status of the operations of that place? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education , briefly. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, this current situation is not at all as the Member for Arthur suggests.

The current situation is that the operating deficit for 1986 is anticipated to be some $5.2 million for the full year. - (Interjection) - Madam Speaker , as is the normal case, I expect that members opposite will want to review the current year in committee and they are certainly entitled to do so. I welcome it. They will find that, in fact, we are on budget, that the things we said we were doing are taking effect. Madam Speaker , to reference the member 's specific question, we have never ruled out amd I would welcome interest on the part of the private sector in Manfor.

The fact of the matter is, and members opposite know this too well , that the lumber industry, the pulp and paper industry is a cyclical industry. It is in a very unstable period . There are mills closing virtually by the day across North America and throughout the world. It is not a market in which you can entice people to invest. That does not say that the government is not interested ; we've said that we are. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, to the same Minister .

In view of his comments that the losses at Manfor are horrendous , and in view of his recent answer that the conditions in the marketplace are extremely poor and no one is interested in buying the plan t, will Manitoba taxpayers be expected to carry this kind of horrendous loss over the next year without him or his government taking any positive action on behalf of the taxpayers? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speake r, I have said that the losses are not acceptable. I have also indicated to members opposite that the reasons for the loss in the 1985 year are explicable . We have explained them. We've discussed them .

Maniar is not unusual in being in a loss position. I point out to the members opposite , Manfor , like farmers , like the mining industry, does not set the price

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 it receives for its commod ity. Are our farmers bad managers because they have difficulty managing in these times, or is the mining industry management incompetent? We don't set the price for forest products for Manfor. lt is done on the international market. Our fortunes have fluctuated along with all of those companies who produce primary products. MR. J. DOWNEY: A final supplementary to the Minister, Madam Speaker.

In view of the horrendous losses, part of which, Madam Speaker, was a contract with benefits for over $200,000 for the chief executive offic er, hired by the present board of directors, is the Minister considering changing the board of directors who have not handled the taxpayers' money in a responsible way, as he has not? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, as the member knows, the contract with Mr. Sweeney has expired. Mr. Sweeney has retired. I correct again for the record the inaccuracy of the member's suggestion that the contract was worth $200,000.00. Nonetheless, Madam Speaker, the expertise of Mr.

Sweeney, the leadership that he provided came about as a result not of myself or anybody else hiring a political friend. lt was done on the basis of knowledge and skills that individual possessed. lt was done on the basis of what the market paid senior executives. Madam Speaker, . . . MADAM SPEAKER: May I please remind Ministers that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised, and should not provoke debate; Beauchesne Citation 358(2). The Honourable Member for Arthur with a final, final supplem entary. MR. J. DOWNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker, I still would like an answer.

Is the Minister going to change the board of Manfor? HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, the answer to that question is no. The record of this year . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, if I may . MADAM SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Educ ation. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, the answer is no. The upgrading . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. STORIE: . .. has been completed. We will know the results of management's decisions over the next couple of years.

Madam Speaker, the irony of this is that the New Democratic Party Government is correcting the legacy of incompetence that was left to us from 1969. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Are the honourable members interested in continuing with question period? 816 The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I address my question to the Minister of Finance.

Earlier this week, members of this House gave Royal Assent to the Capital Supply Bill in which the government borrowed funds in the total of $65 million to pay off losses associated with Flyer Bus, namely , in the area of contingency liabilities. I would ask the Minister of Finance how the government will treat Manfor's $31.3 million loss? How will that loss be covered? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The loss of the corporation is dealt with in the normal way with respect to the books of that corporation.

If there are any other further advances that have to be dealt with during this year, then they will be dealt with at the appropriate time with respect to Capital Authority for that opertion. MR. C. MANNESS: A very specific question, Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Finance. How much is the loss forecasted for Manfor in the fiscal year of 1986? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I've indicated that those questions will certainly be answered in committee. I've indicated that the operating loss is to be $5.2 million.

The forecast, obviously at this point, is in roughly mid­ year. The First Quarterly Report would indicate that we're on target in terms of that budget. I've indicated that the losses are not acceptable. I've indicated that we're doing something about them, something that members opposite never tried to do about the situation that existed in the corporation. Those questions will certainly be answered in detail and the members can ask them at will in Committee when Manfor goes before the Committee. MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary to the Minister of Finance.

As the Minister of Education has just indicated, we are nearly six months through the fiscal year of Manfor . Can the Minister of Finance assure this House that he has a total up-to-date accounting of the situation in Manfor and that he will not have to wait three or four months after the fact, indeed, he knows within a month what the standing is at the present time of Manfor? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Techno logy. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

As Minister of Crown Investments, we had a meeting in fact this morning with officials of Manfor, with the Minister in charge of Manfor, and with other Ministers in the Economic Resources Investment Committee of Cabinet. We had a detailed discussion as to the finances of Manfor and their up-to-date projections as to where

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 they are now and where they're expecting to be for the rest of the year, and I must say that it's encouraging to see that we have finally fixed up some of the problems from the past. There were difficulties, which members recall - (Interjection) - Certainly, it's a long time and the re were four years of Conservative Government . But the point is, Madam Speaker, one of the key elements last year was that there were significan t technical cha nges made .

Members of the House were informed last year that there were problems technically with those changes, that they were going on for a longer period; there were computer problems, and so on. Those problems are being addressed and I believe the forecast is one that can, on an operating basis, be made . MR. C. MANNESS: A final supplementary to the same Minister . Will he, as the Minister of Crown Investments , table the six-month report with respect to Manfor when it becomes available? HON. V.

SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker, we'll take that as notice. - (Interjection) - Well we haven't been tabling six-month reports for a Crown corporation . The members opposite didn't table them . I can assure hon ourab le members that we don't have such boondoggles as 10 times the necessary inventory of lumber on hand at Manfor today, as we had when we took office . A MEMBER: In November '81. Special Audits by Provincial Auditor MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable -Member for St. Norbert . MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Finance .

On Tuesday in Public Accounts it was indicated to my colleague, the Member for Morris that the Provincial Auditor was carrying out an audit under The Cooperative Loans and Guarantee Board. Could the Minister of Finance -indicate the reasons for that audit? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker . That question was answered in the House . The audit was a special audit requested under The Provincial Auditor's Act regarding the building known as the Brokerage Building at 115 Bannatyne with respect to all government activities with tenants of that building.

The question was asked of the Provincial Auditor whether or not there were any reviews done with respect to that particular agency that the member mentions and his answer was in context with the special audit asked by myself with respect to 115 Bannatyne . MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker, are there any other audits being carried out t:;y the Provincial Auditor with respect to loans or guarantees by the Cooperative Loans and Guarantee Board? HON. E. KOSTYRA: None that I am aware of, other than the ongoing audits that he would do of any 817 department or agency of government.

There are no special audits that I am aware of. MR. G. MERCIER: Madam Speaker , I would ask the Minister of Cooperative Development whether he is aware of any loans or investigations with respect to any other loans or guarantees by the Cooperat ive Loans and Guarantee Board? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Cooperative Development. HON. J. COWAN: No, those loans are oftentimes audited as a matter of practice if they involve expenditures by government or other levels of government , or other governments - the Federal Government - and that's a normal practice .

Those are ongoing at all times , but there are no special audits to my knowledge ongoing on any of the loans at the present time . Jurisdiction of Gov't over farm machinery, equipment and livestock MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. C. BAKER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Has the Minister had any discussions with the Federal Agricultural Minister regarding his willingness to delegate to the Province of Manitoba the jurisdiction to legislation over farm machinery , equipment and livestock? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture .

HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I thank the honourable member for that question. We have staff in Ottawa presently discussing the proposed federal legislation that there is some intention of bringing to Parliament very shortly . However, we have not had an official response from the Federal Minister of Agriculture as to our proposal. We will be following up with that but we've had no definitive answer as of today. MR. C.

BAKER: Madam Speaker, can the Min ister assure the House th at he and his colleagues will continue to consult with farmers and farm representatives, so that fair and effective programs can be developed and administered? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker , I certainly can confirm and assure my colleague and all members of this House that we intend to continue consulti ng on a broad basis with all the farm representatives and the various groups representing farmers in Manitoba to develop comprehensive farm programs, within the financial capability of our province, and we will continue to do so as we have done in the past

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 Main Street project MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Finance. Can the Minister of Finance tell the House today what is the status of negotiations with regard to the Main Street project workers who have been without contract for 15 months? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I understand that there will be a resumption of discussions or negotiations tomorrow. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Madam Speaker , can the Minister inform the House as to whether offenders using the Fine Option Program are working at the Main Street project? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Madam Speaker, I'd have to defer the answer to that question to my collegue, the Minister of Health. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'll have to take that as notice, Madam Speak er. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supplementary to the Minister of Health then, Madam Spea ker. Could the Minister assure the House that should strike occur, additional Fine Option offenders will not be used as strikebreakers? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I'll get the full information and report to the House tomorr ow. Northern Flood Agreement - settlement outstanding liabilities MADAM SPEAKER: That question was hypothetical. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is addressed to the Minister of Northern Affairs.

In view of the fact that there appears to be very little or no action or progress regarding a settlement of land claims with regard to the Northern Flood Agreement; and in view of the fact that there appears to be some stumbling blocks in the way of settlement of the majority of these land claims that were identified some three years ago, will the Minister of Northern Affairs please table the identified lands or a map showing the lands in question? MADAM SPEAK ER : The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, that question was raised by the opposition a few weeks ago and the 818 Premier, at that time, was asked to table the progress reports that we had made in the settlement of land claims. We have tabled that information, but if he wants the maps we can certainly make the maps available to him. They are large maps, so if he wants to come to my office, I will show him the maps that are available in my office. MR. L.

DERKACH: Madam Speaker, due to the lack of action on land transfers, do the Native people have recourse to arbitration and also compensation for the loss of opportunity as a result of the undue delays in the land claims? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, Madam Speak er, the arbitrator always has been a part of the process. There has been an arbitrator appointed and that process is always available to the people, but we have been working in cooperation. The cooperative method is ongoing.

We are working and consulting with the groups involved and we feel that we are very close to aborting some of the parcels of land that are available. They've been identified and very shortly there will be a group going out to identify all the sites, so the process is ongoing. Charter of Rights -Gov't policy MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. J. WALDING: My question is to the First Minister and I should like to ask the First Minister if it is the policy of the government to conduct its affairs and responsibilities in conformity with the Charter. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Madam Speaker. MR. J. WALDING: Madam Speaker, I'd further like to ask the First Minister if it's the policy of the government, when seeking appointments for boards and commissions, to exclude certain people on the basis of language, ethnic background or gender from those positions. HON. H. PAWLEY: No, Madam Speaker. MR. J. WALDING: I wonder if the Premier would be good enough to tell his secretariat of that change in policy. Northern Flood Agreement - settlement outstanding liabilities MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources and flows from the questions from the Member for Roblin­ Russell regarding the Northern Flood Agreement and the Land Claims Agreement that was reached in 1983.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 Can the Minister indicate whether his department is doing the finalization of the land transactions that are taking place or is it the Department of Northern Affairs? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, we, being the Department of Natural Resources, are responsib le for Crown lands. We will be part of the delivery process and we will be working in cooperation with the other parties to the agreement. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker , could the Minister be more specific in terms of who has the final responsibility, whether it is his departmen t or the Department of Northern Affairs, because there is confusion between the two that the delays have been taking place? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, Madam Speaker , very clearly, we have made it quite clear that the Department of Northern Affairs is responsible for the negot iations . Once the negotiations are completed, then the Department of Natural Resources will be doing the implementing of the land placement. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, a final supplementary to either Min ister, seeing we don't know exactly who is going to be doing what. Could one of the Ministers possibly make available to all members of the House the Wish List of the vario us government departments that have been submitted and that are affecting some of the settlements at the present time? HON. H.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speake r, if any of the members of the Opposition would like to come into my office, we have a detailed map, and I would gladly share with them some of the Wish List or some of the land sites that have been selected by the five Northern land Bands. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . Beef cattle - marketing and processing of HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Several days ago, the Member for Virden and the Member for Roblin-Russell raised a number of questions as to dealing with the size of finished animals coming to market through the Beef Commission, and a numbe r of animals grading below A-1 and A-2 increas ing above the provincial norm during this past month . Madam Speaker , I'm advised by the Beef Commission that there is no doubt that some producers are crowding the system , and they are booking marketings in unprecedented numbers .

But , Madam Speaker , one should bear in mind that production techniques have changed over the recent years , bringing in a grea ter number of fall calves to the slaughter market in May 819 and June; and that's primarily because of the cross­ breeding that has gone on and larger calves being put on full feed at the time of weaning . Madam Speaker, since the inception , the plan has had seven regular support level adjustment periods, five of which saw increases and two with declines .

The Manitoba Beef Commission has attempted to counsel producers to market only at correct weights and at optimum time, and we do have five field persons who are doing an excellent job in this regard.

I want to advise my honourable friend that, for example, in terms of the specif ics of his question : in May of 1984, 92 percent of the animals - and we marketed 5,254 slaughter animals through the Beef Commission - 92 percent of those graded A; in May of 1985, the same month a year later, we marketed 8,125 animals , 93.5 percent of those were A; and in May of 1986 we markete d 9,809 animals , 93.2 percent of those were A. Madam Speak er . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please . HON. B. URUSKI: . . . we are above the provinci al average marketing of A's through the Manitoba Beef Commission .

Hunting - illegal MADAM SPEAKER: Th e Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speak er, I took as notice a question from the Member for Emerson on the 4th of June with respect to a task force that he suggested was being estab lished in the Department of Natural Resources to look into the matter of illegal hunting . I indicated at that time that to the best of my knowledge there was no such specific task force, but that I would verify it within the department . I have done so.

There is no specific task force but as a matter of ongoing act ivity, we do look into the question of illegal take of game . We are in consultation with different interest groups . We are aware of comments that are made in different sectors , but there is no specific task force within the Department of Natural Resources as suggested by the Member for Emerson. Austin Museum funding MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speak er, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture with regard to the Western Manitoba Agricultural Museum .

Earlier this year the board had asked the government for a part of their yearly grant in advance because they were in severe financial difficu lty. To this date they 've not received any funds, although they were promised immediate action. Can the Minister give the House and the board of the museum the reason for this delay ? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Agricultur e.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, this matter, in terms of the funding, has now been transferred to the Minister of Cultural and Heritage in terms of their funding. There was, I admit, some delay in terms of getting the funding going, but I will take the specific question as notice just to find out where that matter is at, at the present. MRS. C. OLESON: Well to the Minister, they were promised this money long ago. They are asking for it. They're not asking for anything new or more money, they're asking for an advance on money they're getting. MADAM SPEAKER: Question. MRS. C.

OLESON: Could the Minister tell us and that board when they are going to receive that money? They are faced with the possibility of closing down their annual reunion. Could the Minister indicate what they're going to do about this? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: Thank you, Madam Speake r. I can assure members opposite that the Austin Museum has been told that they will be receiving their operating grant this year . They have had those assurances and guarantees. The cheque is on the way, and the Austin Museum . . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. HON. J. WASYLYCIA-LEIS: . . . and the Austin Museum is well aware of the situation. MRS. C. OLESON: Could the Minister of Cultural Affairs advise the House exactly what date that cheque was mailed, because it wasn't there yesterday? HON. J. WASYLYCIA·LEIS: Madam Speaker, I will be happy to bring back to this House tomorrow precise information about the cheque. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Member for Government House Leader. HON. J.

COWAN: Madam Speaker, I move, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, Estimates consideration of Agriculture in the Chamb er, and Highways and Transportation outside of the Chamber, as per usual.

MOTION presented and car ried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the Honourable Member for Kildonan in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. 820 CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPO RTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee, come to order. We are on Item 3.(a), Page 95. The Minister has some information that was requested by the members previously. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I did promise yesterday to provide the members with some additional information on questions they asked that we could not give the details of last day. The Member for Minnedosa asked about the status of acquisition of right-of-way on projects involving PR 250 from PTH No. 16 to PTH No. 45. He also asked about PR No. 354 from PTH No. 45 to the Little Saskatchewan River, and others.

Insofar as No. 250, I can report to the committee that the preliminary visitation has been completed and the location plans have been prepared, so that will mean now the process in terms of actual payments and final settlements can begin. Insofar as 354, again, the preliminary work has been completed on the design and acquisition is just beginning there. From the Little Saskatchewan River south, this has been delayed due to alignment questions. We've met with residents from the area, the councils, and are looking at some alternatives through the Saskatchewan River Valley there where it's very difficult.

From PR No. 355 to the north boundary of the R.M. of Blanchard, the acquisition is 100 percent completed. On PR No. 355, from P.R. 474 to PTH 83, acquisition has been 100 percent completed. There was a question from the Member for Roblin­ Russell about the cost of a bridge on 254 near PTH 83 that was done I believe he said last winter. it's two­ and-a-quarter miles east of PTH 83; the cost was $56,000.00. There was a question by the Member for Gladstone regarding the installation of a bridge or culverts through the grade on 352 near the Campbell residence.

I had indicated that I believed the bridge, or the culverts, had been put in place. That is correct; they have been placed in this location without changing the original alignment of the provincial roads at that location. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that information. The Member for Roblin-Russell isn't here but he can get that information in Hansard. Some of my colleagues have questions under Planning and Design so I'll let them proceed with them and then I'll finish with my comments. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he could indicate what long-range plans or plans over the next two years are with respect to PR 422. I wasn't here the other night when bridges were being discussed, but it seems to me that there is some

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 commitment within the capital program with respect to bridges. What type of road is being designed for 422, and will it come into being in 1987? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, the local communities in the area have been in touch with members of the staff recently, and so there has been some meetings on that and they have been communicating the plans. Currently , I believe the

section from PTH 23 to 205 is in the process of land acquisition. There is also in this year's budget, for structures and approaches , box culverts that have to be done in that

section as well for a considerable amount of funds . The intention is to upgrade that road in preparation for subsequent paving, probably an asphalt surface treatment. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman , I'm glad to see that provision is being made this year for the proper type of bridge structures or culvert structures as there are being so close together. Is the Minister indicating that construction will be done in 1986? Will it be done this year with certainty? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, the intent was, when we placed that in the budget, that it would be done this year.

If there are any difficulties in the design, which there shouldn't be - it's small structures - they should be done this year, and that's what we anticipate . MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I ask the Minister what happens in cases where field staff indicate to residents, like they did in the fall of 1985, that Land Acquisitions had been purchasing land through the area in the months of November and December and being completed in January and then it doesn't really happen. It doesn't happen certainly during that period of time.

Are there different instructions that are brought forward or indicated by the top people within the Ministry or are these at times rumours that are inaccurate, because it certainly causes an awful lot of consternation at the local level when time deadlines are missed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That seemed to happen in this case. MR. C. MANNESS: I would ask the Minister , who probably doesn't know much about the particular case, but how do these situations occur? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it's very difficult to generalize as to what may have occurred .

Certainly they do not get any instructions from me, or had any direction from me through senior staff to slow down their work on the acquisition . So if there's any inclination of belief in that regard by the member, certainly I can say categorically that there is no direction from the Minister's office to delay the process. However, it is possible that certain difficulties are encountered in a change from the preliminary design after initial visits. Quite often , the acquisition officer and the Highways staff person will visit, make initial visits and outline the intended program for acquisition and time line .

However, after meeting with some , there 821 may be difficulties encountered with certain landowners and some changes may be required . That sometimes means going back and making substantial changes to design and plans . It means, quite often then , that the time line that was originally projected has to be altered and amended and perhaps they don't always go back and tell them that it's now going to take longe r than intended. That 's the way I see, it would seem to me, that these things could happen. MR. C. MANNESS: A final question with respect to 422.

Can the Minister give any indication whether there will be construction on that length of road that he has mentioned; will there be any construction at all in 1987? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe the member is referring to 422? MR. C. MANNESS: Correct. HON. J. PLOHMAN: First of all, I just wanted to clarify. I believe in the question asked previously, that the member was asking about delays in land acquisition as opposed to indicati ons being given by acquisition staff that .. A MEMBER: Highways staff. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Highways staff - they go together, usually, on initial visits - but that construction would take place the following year or at a certain time of the year. If that was the question, obviously they would not and they should not be giving any indication that construction would follow acquisition activities. But I don't believe that was the question . I believe the member was asking abou t what I answered in the previous answer . Insofar as 422 is concerned, I indicated there would be the structures and the approaches graded in anticipation of the complete grading of that

section the following year. The intent, of course , is that the structures and the approaches would be done together. MR. C. MANNESS: The operative part of the Minister's answer, of course, was the following year and I accept it. I would like to direct my next question to PR 240 , that infamous or famous

section of road south of Portage between St. Claude and Portage . I have seen the design. The new route is proposed to follow through that part of my constituency. I would ask the Min ister whether or not the department and the senior staff are anywhere closer or anywhere close at all to making a commitment to construction through that specific portion of 240? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , in this current section, the design has been completed and resolutions have been received from the municipalities agreeing to the new alignment.

The next stage, now that that is complete, is the process of acquisition and that's what's beginning at the present time. So the land on that new location has to be acquired, and that will take at least this year. If everything goes well , it could be

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 on the program put forward by the department for consideration in next year's construction budget. If there are any difficulties encountered in the delays in that process then it may not be possible, but it would seem that we could be looking at next year for construction on the new alignment. The time consuming parts, primarily , have been completed and that is the location and getting agreement on the new location which took quite some time. MR. C. MANNESS: The final road that I would like to discuss, Mr.

Chairman, is that of 330. it's a short portion from the South Perimeter leading to Morris. I'm concerned about one portion of that, from La Salle to Domain. Just over the last two weeks, I believe there has been some of this surface treatment - sealcoating - been performed between the perimeter and La Salle. I would ask the Minister whether there is any intention at all to upgrade or to sealcoat the portion of the road from La Salle to Domain, bearing in mind that there must be horrendous maintenance costs associated with the breaking up of the major portion of that asphalt section? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, that particular

section of the road of 330 was given serious consideration this past year and almost made it. But because of the reductions in the amount of total dollars that were available, we could not include it at the end. But it was given serious consideration as a high priority project for that area. I might add that the reconstruction of that area, of that particular section, is about $1 million. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'll just make a comment. Hopefully the reconsideration in denying it had nothing to do with the fact that I live at Domain.

I would want to indicate my conflict of interest, if there's such a thing like that. Hopefully , the Minister will recon sider. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I am very aware of the famous Domain, because I knew the other Manness's from up in that area very well during university days, as well as Clayton. - (Interjection) - Yes, I have to get up there and see those roads again, I have to admit, yes. - (Interjection) - The Member for Morris, otherwise known as Clayton Manness. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister to drive west from the constituency of Morris to the Brandon area and talk to us a little bit about where we're at with respect to the eastern access route. I know it's in the planning stages and I wonder if there's any news the Minister can bring with respect to the completion date and just where we're at with the eastern access route? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have been undertaking a detailed survey of the proposed route in that area to determine the right-of-way requirements.

There's been discussions with CPR as to whether there should be an underpass or overpass of the CPR main line 822 in that area and that decision has not been finalized as yet. So it is still then in the survey stage, discussions with affected groups in the area, such as CPR. The Land Use Committee has just met to look at the matters of archaeological reconnaissance and there will have to be a ministerial review followed later , and also the environmental considerations for that area.

We have a formal process which will have to be gone through to have approval for the precise route, once it has been defined, or alternatives. Well, the precise route has been defined as a prime alternative and that will have to be approved through committees of Cabinet. So there's a number of stages yet before acquisition can begin. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'm not in the business, never have been in the business of building highways and I'm looking at a kind of a time frame that we, in Brandon, can look forward to. We were told at one time something like five years.

Now I think that would have been last summer, when the announcement was made. Does it have to take five years or can it be sooner? HON. J. PL OHMAN: I don't believe it would take five years to get this work done unless there's some unforeseen problems. it's proceeding. As I said, there's a lot of steps that have to be undertaken, so it would take probably a couple of years to get those completed and if acquisition moves along smooth ly, perhaps construction within three years, the third year down the road. MR. J.

McCRAE: Could the Minister describe for us, take us through the steps that were undertaken to get us to the point where it was decided that the eastern access route would be at 49th Street as opposed to 17th Street or some other route? Could the Minister take us step by step through that and how the decision was arrived at? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I don't know that I recall all of the steps that were taken, but there was a major study undertaken by Underwood McLellan that began in 1981 or' SO- the member may be familiar with the exact date that was commissioned - and they identified a number of major projects, highway changes that had to be undertaken and priorized those for the Brandon and surrounding area. The eastern access was projected to be required some time in the late 1990's or around the year 2000, I believe, in that study. lt was, in other words, one of the lower priorities identified.

However, after considering the wishes and the various resolutions and presentations made by the local community, the City of Brandon, the municipalities in the area, it was deemed that this should be moved up in priority, that it was indeed more important to have the construction take place than some of the other major projects that were identified. So, it was moved up in priori ty. There was a general consensus as a result of the first study that was done by Underwood McLellan that the 49th Street route would be the best route, or the one most favoured and most acceptable in the area.

We did not accept that because it had not been flashed

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 out in the same degree that we would like to ensure that we were getting the best value for the money being spent because it is a very expensive project and, therefore, we wanted to ensure that it was in the best location to combine the concerns that it would get maximum use, balanced against the requirements to move it away from residential areas as much as possible because of the movement of hazardous goods.

We did undertake a subsequent study with Underwood Mcl ellan to follow through with more intensive examination of alternatives to consider the environmental effects, to meet with the land use committee in the area, to meet with the council and residents' groups to determine what the preferences were and to rate those various options to come up with the preferred option.

So the study team , which included , I think, representation from the City of Brandon and perhaps even the municipalities in the area, as well as Underwood Mclellan and the Highways Department, did do this rating over a period of time in 1984 and into 1985, I believe, and then did make a recommendation on the basis of their rating system that, considering everything even though 49th Street would not get quite the use in volumes as one closer in to the City of Brandon, it was felt that because of all the other obstacles involved with Simplot and Hydro and so on in there, the proximity to residential areas, that it was best to construct it on the 49th Street route.

That is the decision that we made last year, I believe, towards the end of 1985. I don't remember the exact dates. But there was an extensive process of consultation and subsequent study that led to the final decision. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I think at the time being a member of the Council of the City of Brand on, we were relieved that the decision was taken to locate at 49th Street, and we thank the government for that decision. I'd like to move on, Mr. Chairman, to a stretch on 18th Street from Pacific Avenue north.

I'm not just sure how far north that goes, but is that scheduled for this year's budget, the reconstruction over the approaches to the bridge and north of there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, this year there is the completion in the budget of the acquisition of right­ of-way in the area of the Pacific Avenue loop. That has to be completed before any work can be done there. So we do have that in the budget, along with the intersection improvements at the juncton of PR 459 that will be completed this year. There is the other section, I believe the

section that the member's talking about, from the north end of the railway overpass to the Assiniboine River, if that's what the member is talking about. That will be considered in next year's budget. lt was considered this year but, because of dollar limitations, we could not put it in this year. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I believe the people locally see those two projects together, that stretch north of the bridge to the river and also the land acquisition just to the south of the bridge. Is that not all one project, or is that two projects? 823 HON. J.

PLOHMAN: lt can actually be two projects, one requiring some acquisition, I believe, at the present time, and the other is ready to go for pavement and resurfacing. MR. J. McCRAE: So that if acquisition is undertaken this year at the south end of that bridge and completed this year, would we not be looking at the two next year at the same time? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt's possible, Mr.

Chairman, that they could be included as one project if there were dollars for it in the acquisition - (Interjection) - I've got some members from our caucus that have come in here and started heckling, and would like to have them just keep a little bit of order. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if they're heckling the Minister or heckling me. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There are some very serious questions being asked by members of the Opposition here, and we don't need that heckling. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well put. The Minister of Highways. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: I just wanted to say that it's possible that they could be included as one project, depending on the status of the acquisition and whether it's all ready to go. We'll look at that next year. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairm an, if I may, I would suggest that it would be a good idea to look at them both as one project. Of course, I would ask that they be moved on as quickly as possible. I have to mention, yesterday I mentioned in the question period , Mr.

Chairman , my opponent for election in Brandon West - and this has some relationship to the announcement by the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security, I believe it was last summer, of the eastern access. At that time, the day in fact that the Minister made that announcement in Brandon to a great deal of relief in our community, I must say, at that time I asked the Minister about future plans for a western access. Of course, the gentleman who was my opponent in Brandon West took the idea up and brought that forward as his election platform, the western access.

So I ask the Minister of Highways and Transportation today whether that is even part of any concept plan as yet, or where we are with the western access. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I'm not certain exactly . There were a number of projects in the Underwood Mclellan proposals. Perhaps both of the M LA's for Brandon were not that ingenious to have dreamt up this new project.

Perhaps it was one of those, but I would have to look through to find out. lt's not one that would be done this year or next perhaps, because of the priority that's being placed on the eastern access, but certainly it is good to have long-range planning and to have some vision. I think that's what was being enunciated by the Member for Brandon East. MR. J. McC RAE: I can't help but observe , Mr. Chairman, that perhaps my opponent was fighting an

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 election some 15 years down the road. In any case, maybe he can fight that one next time. So it's fair to say that the department really hasn't turned its attention in any serious way to any real planning for a western access since we don't have an eastern access yet. So I'd just like to make sure that's clearly on the record. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I don't know for sure whether the member was just retitling the current western access, which would be the old 1A and the need for improvement at the Kemnay Overpass in that area.

That is being looked at and that is part of the study that was done. lt would serve as a Brandon western access, I'm sure, as it does at the present time, but definitely needs improvements. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, just to make sure we're on the same wave length here, when the Minister refers to the overpass, I guess it's the train that goes over and the cars that go under at Kemn ay. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. J. McCRAE: Is that what he's talking about, linking it up to there? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That's right. MR. J. McCRAE: What both of us were talking ab out at the time, Mr. Chairman, was something to link up.

I believe the eastern access comes down to . . . Mr. Chairman, the eastern access is proposed, I understand, to come south of Patricia Avenue to link up with Highway No. 10, and I believe the concept that we had in mind would have been to link up No. 10 somehow with No. 1, either at Kemnay or west of Kemnay. lt looks to me, from a map, that something to the west of Kemnay would make more sense, unless you were going to be making those improvements in 1A between Brandon and Kemnay. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, it would be in the vicinity of the train overpass and west of there - improvements in that area - as opposed to much in alignment toward into the city. We had assumed, perhaps maybe what the members were talking ab out was the linking up of the eastern access to Patricia Avenue, bringing it right over to No. 10, which is another project at some future time perhaps, because it will not go that far initially, the eastern access, but that would have to be considered down the road as well. MR. J.

McCRAE: I agree that we are talking sometime down the road but I would also make the point that, over the years, in my years and experience with living around Brandon, there've been many serious accidents at that underpass at Kemnay and that's certainly something that I would support seeing improvements to. I believe the Minister of Employment Services and Economic Security would like to say something. I'll yield the floor momentarily to him. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. 824 HON. L. EV ANS: A point of clarification with the Minister .

I believe, for the information for the members of the Committee, the Member from Brandon West referred to the possibility of, at some future time, of a western access. My question is, was that considered in a the consultant's study? I think the answer is no. The consultant's study , which looked at the highway requirements of Brandon district to the year 2000, made reference to various requirements in terms of highways and they did estimates of future traffic flow, etc.

Eastern access was one item that was considered in that stu dy, but I don't believe there was ever any suggestion or reference made in that study to a western access. So I'm really asking the Minister for clarification for the Member for Brandon West. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well I did actually say that there was no western access in the study, but improvements at that overpass was part of the study as one of the requirements.

I don't recall if it was exactly 20 years or a little longer than that, but that concept is ob viously something that was not included in the foreseeable 25- year future kind of thing under the Underwood McCiellan study. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, that was my feeling, or my understanding. I just have to make the point that my opponent in Brandon West would have had people there believing that we'd have a western access pretty quickly if they'd elected him and I just wanted to make that clear, that that wouldn't have happened. I'd like, Mr.

Chairman, to ask the Minister ab out the Department's plans for Highway No. 1 as it passes west and to the north of Brandon. We have quite a few imbalances there. Coming from the east we have four lanes and then just as we get to the west of Brandon, it becomes two lanes, and we go down Grand Valley. What are the plans for that stretch until we get to the west of Kemnay where it's four lanes again? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This year, Mr. Chairman, we do have in the program a major grading job on that

section of the new lanes working west to the Assiniboine River from, pardon me, east from Kemnay to the Assiniboine. And there are 3. 7 miles of grading that is going to take place there in this year's construction program. As well, we're going to redo, resurface and reconstruct the bridge that exists; the older one. There was a new one built and the old one will have to be, I don't know, it may be entirely replaced or just redecked to bring the loadings up to the requirements.

So that would take place in su bsequent years, but the grading would take place this year and it's a substantial expenditure of monies, in the neighbourhood of $2 million to do that. MR. J. McCRAE: What does the Minister mean by grading? What kind of operation is that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The grading of the two new lanes to make it a four lane facility through there. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, two more areas that I'd like to discuss and that is getting closer to Brandon, going east from the bridge the Minister just referred to. Is there any future plan for a by-pass of North Brandon?

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, there is no plan at the present time for that, although it maybe should be considered in terms of protection of land and land use in that area. However, that was rejected, even though it was one of the recommendations, as the member well knows , of the Underwood McCiellan study, and it was actually recommended on a much more urgent basis than the eastern access. There is a need to improve the traffic situation on the current alignment of Highway No. 1 through North Brandon and that is being undertaken through some studies that we're doing now .

I'll just check, in terms of status, in terms of when the work could begin on that present alignment, but we are not undertaking any steps at the present time, or undertaking any plans with regard to a north by-pass. As I said to the member from Morris yesterday , I guess it would be desirable to be able to put in place plans for all future routes through communities. He was asking about Morris and Highway No. 75, and we have Virden's situation with Highway No. 1, and Brandon then want perhaps a requirement that there should be overpasses or wh atever, another alignment there.

Those are so far down the road in terms of major expenditures, that we aren't undertaking that kind of major planning for another route at this time. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, my only suggestion to the Minister in that respect is that if the Department ever does get it in its mind to do such a thing, it might bounce the idea off the Member for Brandon East or the Member for Brandon West, before they push ahead too quickly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I'm just looking at the status of the study that has been completed on the present route and there's acquisition in the current project, current program, for some acquisition on the present location so that we can improve the current traffic situation on Highway No. 1 at the present location. That is in the program this year, but not the actual construction or additional dollars for grading or paving. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, this is for an upgrading of the Highway No. 1 that goes through Brandon North now . What kind of activities are we talking about?

The Minister mentioned land acquisition in the area. HON. J. PLOHMAN: There are some difficulties with the service roads in the way they allow the flow of traffic there, and there is some minor acquisition that has to be done to improve the service road access in the intersections. MR. J. McCRAE: I have occasion to use all those roads quite regularly and I tend to agree with the Minister that there is need for improvement in the service road areas. One last question before - I see the Member for Brandon East would like to say something again - but, Mr.

Chairman, I refer the Minister to Provincial Road 250, between Alexander and Souris, and ask if there are any plans, long term, short term, for the improvement of that stretch between Souris and Alexand er, specifically the northerly half? That's PR No. 250. 825 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we're just looking as to the exact location and whether anything is programmed for that this year. We have undertaken projects on 250 each year. 1t has been getting rather, I think, high-priority attention over the last number of years to recognizing that it is a major route.

Now I don't know, that far south, whether there has been any major work done there but, overall, its length. We have undertaken a considerable amount of work and this

section would obviously have to be priorized with the others. I'll just check to see whether we have any acquisition or survey work in that area. As I indicated, there has been major work done. The first section, the southerly section, was paved, and the second

section was graded this past year. lt's in carry­ over to be completed, the final gravel , second lift of gravel to Alexander, and that then will be considered in future budgets for paving. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, there again traffic, I believe , is increasing in that area and it's the only natural route for anyone going from Alexander to Souris or Souris to Alexander to use. While in the summertime the conditions aren't so so bad; I know that in the wintertime it can be a pretty treacherous piece of road.

I would suggest that the northern half of that stretch, the pavement of that, be given some priority by the department. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I just wanted to add, Mr. Chairman, insofar as the traffic, it is one of the lowest areas of traffic there.

A couple of other sections, but south of PTH 1, according to the average daily traffic runs that have been done there in the last year or so, it's 150 average traffic per day, which is quite low when you compare it to most PR roads. lt's certainly not an extremely high amount of traffic for a provincial road, although there may be some times of the year when it would be much higher than that. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I'm quite prepared to stand corrected if I'm incorrect about the use, but anyone who does use it basically is in a real hazardous situation in the wintertime; I know that. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The other point I wanted to make is that other

section just north of Highway No. 1 is actually being paved this year so that we are doing that

section just north. So we'll leave only that one

section in that area that will still remain unpaved, and the intention is that that would be done. But, as I indicated, probably rightly so, that because of the traffic counts that are there in comparison to the other sections, it wouldn't have been receiving the same priori ty. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East. HON. L.

EVANS: Just by way of clarification, and to put it on the record, as I understand it, one of the reasons for the proposed bypass north of Brand on was to improve the safety in that area but, because the decision was made not to go with the bypass, it was still necessary to make improvements between First Street and 18th Street along No. 1 simply because of the hazardous traffic conditions.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 I understand, therefore, the Minister's answer really in references to purchase of land for access, better access and so on, is all geared towards improving the safety features, reducing the access, I guess, to the No. 1 Highway. There are too many entrances and exits now. I presume better signage and also possibly better lights, but I'm not clear on the lighting. Maybe the Minister could answer that question again really for the edification of the Member for Brandon West, that all these things are for improving highway traffic safety in that area. MR. D.

BLAKE: But not the northern access route they propose. That's ridiculous. HON. L. EVANS: No, no, I'm saying the argument for the bypass, one of the arguments, was the safety argument, but because we made a decision not to go with the bypass because, nevertheless, you have to do something. So I have a specific interest in about the lighting as well as the signage and accessing. Are we going to have better lights in that area, Mr. Chairman? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, these are some excellent points that the member for Brandon East is bringing out.

Of course, it was safety oriented. lt is a substantial project and even on the current alignment it will include improved signage, improved lighting - not only traffic lights but also overhead lighting - and it will include improved connections and repaving. So, obviously, the intention is to improve, as I was saying, the traffic connections and flows there, obviously, with the goal in mind that it would improve the safety situation because it is a very busy intersection, a very busy highway at that point. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Aiel. MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm probably one of the luckier members who doesn't have any highways in his area. A MEMBER: Do you have the Trans-Canada? MR. G. DUCHARME: No, it's not in my area; just on the north of my area. My question is in regard to south St. Vital. There is the Perimeter Highway 100 between St. Mary's and St. Annes, which are the city routes 52 and 150. In there, and as you probably appreciate the expansion in south St. Vital, could you tell me what plans or any discussions you've had with the city in regard to these two connector lanes? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I can well appreciate the increase in traffic in that area.

Certainly there has been a lot of residential development up in that area and I'm familiar with it. We have foreseen that this growth was taking place there and there would be additional growth and increase in traffic. So as one of our projects on the Perimeter Highway, in addition to the northeast quadrant of the Perimeter, we have engaged a consultant to undertake studies of future requirements for the St. Anne's and St. Mary's connections to the Perimeter Highway. 826 They will be reporting to us on completion of that study . I believe that one has been started.

There would probably be recommendations for future interchanges at those two locations. There is land protected. lt was protected many years ago, as a matter of fact, by the City of Winnipeg, and then the province has just, I believe, acquired it from the city and finalized those arrangements. That will be part of the study and the City of Winnipeg has representatives on the study team. They should be having input into it and we will be in a better position to report on that probably by the end of this fiscal year. MR. G.

DUCHARME: The reason why I ask is the big concern there, also, is the joining of Dakota. which will eventually be four or six lanes within the city, when it gets to the Perimeter. Has there been any definition - I know there was a phase of about four ideas from another study group of where Dakota would meet the Perimeter Highway, or else it would meet St. Anne's halfway through. Has this been determined, whether Dakota, or whether you will allow Dakota to hit the Perimeter between St. Mary's and St. Anne's? Has there been any discussions with regard to that? HON. J. PLOHMAN: That is, Mr.

Chairman, one of the areas that will be defined as a result of this study. lt looks, at the present time, that the city is preferring now that they would retain a connection on St. Anne's and St. Mary's, as opposed to Dakota, and that there would be enough underpass or overpass in the connection with Dakota. That's the inclination but that hasn't been finalized. lt will be a part of the study. MR. G. DUCHARME: The other concern I have, that would be east of St. Anne's Road and the Perimeter, the industrial site where there are several, maybe six or seven industries along a service road.

There has been rumour that once the Dakota, or once the St. Anne's exchange is put in and the Perimeter becomes - probably it's going to be a larger route - whether those people, the service road will be discontinued at that time. Now they are getting along with gravel, and their concern is will it be discontinued. Is this going to be part of the same study? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, I am informed that it will be part of the same study.

The intent would not be that these service roads would be cut off, but it obviously will take some study and some innovation to look at how that is going to link in with either a future overpass over the C.P. Emerson line there, as well. So that will all be part of it, from the 59 interchange to St. Anne's, and that area, all the way to two and three. MR. G. DUCHARME: All the way through to 59? What would seem to be the concern is that if we do put an interchange at St. Anne's, it's very, very close to No. 59 and I was just wondering, that is all going to be a part of the study, right through to 59. HON. J.

PL OHMAN: Right through 59 to Highways 2 and 3 west.

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 MR. G. DUCHARME: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)(1) - the Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. D. SLAKE: Mr. Chairman, here I'd like to ask what's happening, or what planning has been done with the road on Hecla Island, where it's unfinished surface, complete to the lodge, to Gull Harbour Lodge HON. J. PL OHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have undertaken, because of the importance of this major tourist attraction to the province, to place this in the budget with some priority, so that that road can be upgraded.

I know a lot of people complain about it and going up to such a major attraction as that, to have that kind of a road. So we are undertaking to move from the gate north, with the first

section of construction this year on a new alignment, seven miles of road. lt's in the budget for this year. There is some proper ty, I believe, one piece of property in there that has to be acquired. That, hopefully, will take place as quickly as possible and we'll get the construction done in this construction year. MR. D. SLAKE: What cost is estimated? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt's hard to know, if we're going to tell him how much we're going to offer him, that we're budgeting, but about $5,000 or so. lt's not a lot. I think the member was talking ab out the acquisition, or the road cost? MR. D. SLAKE: No, the road.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: The road cost itself will be ab out $1.3 million to $1.5 million. MR. D. SLAKE: Will it be tendered or are you just going to hire somebody from Minnedosa? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The Member for Minnedosa knows very well the process that's involved. lt's not, I guess, particularly appropriate to go into under Planning and Design, the tendering process. We went through that the other day, the hourly work, under $10,000 and except in the North up to $30,000, and then tender calls ab ove that. In the Construction Program, all of these major jobs are tendered.

Lowest tender gets the job, without exception, unless they withdraw from the bid voluntarily or perhaps, in the rare case, that there's a judgment made by staff that they couldn't do the job or something like that. So there's no opportunity there for any fiddling with the system. MR. D. SLAKE: That would be a rare case, the road to the Ukrainia n Village out at Dauphin, I suppose, when that road was . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, there are occasions when a contractor is in the area and there are some small additions made, extra work either on a separate piece of road or on the same road, where the engineers determine that additional work needs to 827 be done and that it's cost effective to do it at that stage rather than bringing in another contractor or do it on an hourly basis separately.

What they tend to do then is negotiate with the contractor who's doing the other work, and in most cases, I believe, succeed in getting, as in the case of the road that the member is referring to at the Selo Ukraina in Dauphin, have it at the same per-unit cost as the bid price for the major job, so that it's usually quite a bit lower than it would be if a contractor came in just to do that work on an hourly rental basis. MR. D. SLAKE: I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that the road to the Hecla Golf Course, if approved, it will take at least five or 10 strokes off my game.

Shaking along that road puts you in a pretty bad frame of mind to go out and play golf. That's all the questions I have on there, Mr. Chairman, if you want to pass that item. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1)-pass; 3.( a)(2)-pass; 3.(b)(1)-pass; 3.(b)(2)-pass. Resolution 92: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty, a sum not exceeding $2,863,000 for Planning and Design and Land Surveys, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1987-p ass. Page 96, Item 4, Resolution 93, Engineering and Technical Services, 4.(1)(

a) Management Services­ pass; 4.(a)(2)-pass. 4.(

b) Mechanical Equipment Services - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. SLAKE: Yes, under

Section 2, I wonder if the Minister might give us some updating on the state of the equipment. How much equipment has to be replaced this year? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there are 2,427 pieces of equipment in the Mechanical Equipment Branch that are all used for maintenance. For example, 163 motor graders and I go through the whole thing. We have the information here.

A lot of it - well, there's a replacement rotation plan in place and approximately total about $2.7 million in replacement each year, and a total of 3.443 - almost $3.5 million total spent on new equipment each year, either new or replacement equipment. Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure how much detail the member wants and he will have to say how much and what he's getting at in his question, so I don't go on in a long tirade of irrelevant information. MR. D. SLAKE: I'm wondering if the rotation system has been in place for a number of years. Has there been any change in that?

Is the equipment being kept for a longer period of time? Is it in any less or any better state of repair or disrepair than it has been over the last few years? HON. J. PL OHMAN: We haven't changed. The department informs me that there hasn't been a change in the rotation and the criteria that are used. There's the age, the model year is considered, accumulated mileage or hours operated, the general condition, the estimated repair costs, availability or time lost due to

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 breakdown and parts availabi lity , suitability and ability to perform or function effectively; and then lastly , availability of funds for replacement units. For example, in the area of motor graders, a 12 -15 year life expectancy and, at the current rate of replacement, it would take about 15 years to replace them all, so we're at the upper end of that range at the present time. I believe there's going to be 11 new ones this year. So that program is continuing pretty much as it has in the past in terms of the dollars required for that.

I should mention, as well, that we're in the middle of automating the equipment inventory system, so that there will be a better tracking of the costs attributed to each machine, similar to what we have in the fleet vehicles in Government Services, and once that system is in place, it will enable us to have an even better cost-effective management of the fleet of equipment in the department. That is in progress at the present time and being developed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b)(1)-pass; 4.(b)(2)-p ass. 4.(b )(3) - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D.

BLAKE: Under (3), I wonder if the Minister might give us an explanation of this item that we might understand it a little better. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The reason that is fully recovered is that it's all charged at a rate that is budgeted to the districts , and the districts pay back the total costs of this equipment, so therefore the costs would come from the various districts. They would be budgeted there and the mechanical divisions would recover completely all expenditures for the Maintenance Program - from the Maintenance Program, the money would be recovered. MR. D.

BLAKE: Yes, this is machiner y, vehicles and equipment and that, that are used in the district offices? They don't locally buy trucks or . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, there's a central pool of equipment that is maintained in five shops throughout the province, and it is distributed to the districts, as required, and there's a set hourly rate for the operation of that equipment, and the districts pay for the equipment they use through the Maintenance budget. lt comes back as a completely recoverable program to Mechanical Equipment Services.

Those costs include depreciation costs, and that is the basis for mplacement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Where are the depots located? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin, Beausej our, Thompson and The Pas. MR. D. BLAKE: For the northern areas. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)(1 )-pass; 4.(c)(2)-pass. 4.(c)(3) - the Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Mr. Chairman, I see here where Other Expenditures are down somewhat but Purchases are 828 up. Is this a similar kind of situation we have in other areas where expansions are going on and operating budgets are being reduced?

Can the Minister explain how these figures appear this way? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The decrease in that area in the Other Expenditures is due to a deferral of a program of hardware and data lines for on-line implementation of computerized Warehouse Stores inventory control systems in a number of centres. This is being postponed until another system that is being developed in the Mechanical Services is developed to the stage to see whether they can be integrated and, therefore, achieve this cost saving on a permanent basis.

The reason for the increase in the Purchases is that certain items that were previously purchased in a different area of the department have now been consolidated through Warehouse Stores and put on the computerized inventory system. These were previously bulk purchased for maintenance and construction activities, but not inventorized. Sign manufacture material, traffic signal materials and maintenance materials, such as Orbits, plastic bags and so on have all been included on this system.

That's why there's an increase in there. lt's not an increase in actual dollars, just taken more appropriately and put on the computerized inventory system in this area and taken from other sections. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, I was going to ask that same question. The Minister mentioned Orbits. Are there a number of Orbits being purchased? They're still available? They're quite different as a garbage receptacle on the highways. You receive a great number of comments from tourists on them.

I know the original construction of them maybe wasn't too fireproof and there's always the smarty that wants to throw a match into a garbage container when he's going by and watch it burn. But they have been pretty attractive on our highways, compared with the barrels that we see in other jurisdictions. Are they being replaced at a reasonable rate? What material are they constructed from now? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: There hasn't been a change in the material so we, as the member said, still lose a few by someone deciding to burn the garbage as well as drop it off, but the areas where there's the most trouble there is in the recreational areas where they have been placed. Sometimes, they've just had to be discontinued in those areas. MR. D. BLAKE: Back to barrels there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Back to barrels.

But we are intending on enhancing the knowledge of tourists coming into Manitoba by placing signage on major entrances into the province, indicating that you can place your garbage in Orbit, and also to restore the signage that notifies motorists that the Orbit is coming up. In many cases, there isn't signage warning or bringing to their attention that there are 10 seconds to an Orbit or something like that. So we're going to

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 put some more emphasis on ensuring that signage is put back in place. MR. D. BLAKE: lt's a good program. All right, Less Recoverable from Other Appropriations, is that strictly other departments within the Highways and Transportation system, or do you purchase from other departments? MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, did we pass 4.(c)(3)? You want to move on to (4)? The Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, you can direct me here. I heard some of the discussion with respect to signage, and I don't know if this is the proper place or not. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We're dealing with Item 4.(c)(3), Purchases under Warehouse Stores. HON. J. PLOHMAN: 1t could be under Traffic Operations, Mr. Chairman. MR. C. MANNESS: That's coming, is it? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's (g). HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well there was a question about the recoveries, and that is strictly from within the department. MR. D. BLAKE: Within the Highways and Transportation Department? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, fully recovered. MR. D. BLAKE: And you don't purchase from any other departments? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(c)(3)-pass; 4.(c)(4)-pass. 4.(d)(1) - the Member for Minnedosa.

MR. D. BLAKE: Just on this

Section (d), I'd like the Minister to give us an update on the condition of our airstrips and the Northern airports, and also if he could give us a report on the Tadoule Lake strip. I think it's Tadoule Lake, the northern strip that's being proposed federally for building an international airport up in the tundra. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Gener all y, Mr. Chairman, the condition is being maintained, because we do have a regular program of maintenance and gravelling of airstrips throughout the northern areas of the province.

We have put in some special resources for additional gravel in some of those airports, at Oxford House . . MR. D. BLAKE: Any of them been hard-surfaced? HON. J. PLOHMAN: . . . and Gods Lake Narrows this year. We have in the bu dget enough to provide 829 additional gravel at a couple of the other airstrips in the North as well. So I believe that we are keeping them in reasonably good shape, as reasonable as possib le. lt costs us about $1 00,000 per year per airport including staff to operate them. Most of the staff are Native people as well involved in the maintenance and management of these airports.

There are 19 licensed airports that we are responsible for, two additional ones that are licensable but are not currently licensed, and then seven which we call emergency aerodromes that can be used but do not have the same condition. MR. D. BLAKE: Where are they located? HON. J. PL OHMAN: Anama Bay, at Dauphin River, Bissett, Wallace Lake, Cormorant, Easterville, Matheson Island, Moose Lake, Poplar River. They're not equipped to the same extent that the licensed airports are.

Then of course, we have one new airport that is going in this year up at Tadoule Lake that was competitively tendered, and the costs unfortunately came in somewhat higher than we had hoped. This was projected under the Northern Development Agreement. Howev er, they did not have all of the funds required for it, so there has had to have been some additional funds from the department under the construction area to fund the remainder of that contract.

But it was envisaged that this airport would be constructed at the time the Northern Development Agreement was negotiated, and there were several million dol lars in that Northern Development Agreement between the two levels of government for airport maintenance and construction. All of those dollars will be al located to the construction of this Tadoule Lake Airport, total all-inclusive contract of 2.9 million. MR. D. BLAKE: Was this instigated or instituted by the Province of Manitoba, or was this started by the Federal Department of Indian Affairs, Northern Affairs? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The province is the implementing jurisdiction for this airport section, and Northern Affairs is responsible for the priorization of works under that. The Highways Department provides the tendering and undertakes the management of the work. MR. D. BLAKE: This seems like a pretty lavish strip for the amount of traffic that it's liable to get. Is it proposed to use this as an emergency strip for any jets that may get into trouble? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The Member for Minnedosa and other members will know that there are a lot of additional costs in mobilization whenever you're going to get a contractor to go into a remote area to undertake a job. Obvious ly, those costs add up when you're tendering. There is construction of winter roads for bringing both in and out two years in a row for winter roads that have to be constructed, construction of the runway, taxiway, apron and access road to the airport from the communi ty, the construction of the terminal - not quite like the terminal at the Winnipeg International but it's

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 still a new fac ility and you have to have certain equipment shops there as well as other garage, storage and so on. There was drilling, blasting and crushing rock for construction and maintenance gravel purposes that was done at the same time. You've obviously got to have enough gravel to maintain it. lt's much more expensive to bring it in next year if we didn't plan for five or ten years of maintenance gravel. So that is required. The construction of security fencing, bulk fuel storage, so that adds up.

There's a lot of work starting from scratch out in the middle of nowhere and building it. MR. D. BLAKE: Comparable to the standards of our other strips, say, Berens Riv er, this would be a fairly modern, up-to-date strip compared to those other landing strips we have throughout the North, would it not? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well it's very difficult to construct an airport in 1986 to 1952 or 1970 standards. Obviou sly, it's going to meet the standards required for licensing at the present time, but nothing more lavish. Minimum standards - there's certain lighting requirements that are needed as well; radio capabil ity.

Those things have to be prov ided for. lt's not that they're lavish; they're just basic requirements to have the airport licensed. MR. D. BLAKE: Is this the hard surface strip, or gravel? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Just a gravel strip, yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. BLAKE: That's a lot of money . MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(1 )-pass. MR. D. BLAKE: rjust wondered, are we lengthening any strips or are we hard surfacing any of the existing strips now this year. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, none on the Northern Airports Program. I don't know if there's any involved at all.

Even Swan River was not our airpo rt; it's a regional, federally-licensed airport. But none in the Northern Airports; there's no lengthening or paving of these strips. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(1 )-pass. 4.(d )(2)-the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Under Northern Airports, I would just like to ask, it's all-encompassing that the Department of Highways and Transportation is responsible for all of the things that concern Northern Airports, concerning the fences, the runways, the roads from the towns close to the airport, firefighting, fire control and stuff like that.

Could the Minister just advise what responsibilities does the Department of Highways have concerning airports? Does it, in fact, include the fire control and the training of firefighters at these Northern Airports? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The Member for Niakwa has pretty well summed it up and these are, of course, dealing 830 with the 19 licensed airports that we're involved with and they're not like Thompson and The Pas, and so on - I don't mean to be condescending in providing that information for the member - I'm sure he's aware that the 19 airports are: Berens River, Bloodvein, Brochet, Cross Lake, Gods Lake Narrows, llford, Island Lake, Lac Brochet, Lac du Bonnet, Little Grand Rapids, Norway House, Oxford House, Pikwitonei, Red Sucker Lake, St. Theresa Point, Shamattawa, South Indian Lake, Thicket, Portage, and York Landing.

Those are the licenced airports. There are two unlicencable ones at Grace Lake and Pukatawagan and then I mentioned the seven aerodromes that we talked about earlier to the Member for Minnedosa. So those are the ones and basically the member has outlined the kinds of responsibilities in maintaining the roads to the airport, as in the case of Tadoule Lake, of bui lding and constructing the road as part of the airpo rt's costs. MR. A. KOVNATS: Yes, but that's not normal. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Normal ly, I'm told, the road respons ibilities - depending on the nature of the community - the band may be responsible for maintaining those roads, bu t our staff there is responsible for the firefighting equipment and are trained, as well as the secur ity, equi pment and maintenance. They also do some weather reporting for weather services as well in those areas, so they're the kind of people that are jacks of all trades, and hopefully , masters of all as well.

I mentioned earlier that the cost, including the staff per airport on average, is about $100,000, so that's pretty reasonable when you consider the services that they're delivering. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa, quickly. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the Honourable Min ister, is there a sharing of the towns close by and the airport with the firefighting equipment? If it's needed at the airport there's got to be equipm ent there. Are there arrangements made wi th the bands to use the firefighting equipment? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: They're not elaborate firefighting eq uipment, but there are small trucks with some fa cili ties and when they are needed in a nearby community and they're accessible, they would go there to help. But I'm not certain if the band would pay for those costs if they were used in the commun ity. No, we would do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, it's ti me for Private Members' Hour. I will interrupt the proceedings until - well, he's got a lot of questions. MR. D. BLAKE: If he could finish his questioning there, if it's not going to take long, we'll pass this item. MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, pass. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Well I have just have one question more and then you can . . .

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, the time is 4:30. Okay. MR. A. KOVNATS: All right then, pass the item. HON. J. PLOHMAN: We'll allow it under a different item later, if you like. MR. CHAIRMAN: So we've passed 4.(d)(1), 4.(d)(2). We will interrupt the proceedings. We will be on 4.(e). MR. D. BLAKE: Good. SUPPLY - AGRICUL TURE MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been consider ing the Esti mates of the Department of Agriculture. We are now on Item No. 3 - the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. What is the pleasure of the committee? The Honourable Minister . HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, there were a number of questions that were posed by the Member for Arthur the last time we were in committee and I'd like to begin providing that information for honourable members for the record.

One of the questions raised by the Honourable Member for Arthur was the caveat that was placed on the resale of the lands that are turned over to the lessee in the form of a sale and a caveat is placed on those lands to deal with the question of capital gain in future years. The Member for Arthur alleged that somehow the capital gain is, in fact, causing a great hardship for some people. The question basically was: why not do something about the capital gains caveat where the caveat is restricting the farmer who is in trouble from acquiring addit ional financing?

I guess that's basically the question that was put forward. Mr. Chairman, we recognized that the original caveat was onerous in that there was no determinable value attached to the caveat and, as such, we changed the caveat definition. All the farmer lessees who still owned their land have been given a new option where MACC shares in the difference between the value of the land at the time of sale to the lessee and the lessee's purchase price plus interest if the land is sold within 10 years.

Interest is charged from the date of purchase on the diff erence between the value and the purchase price until the date of resale, at MACC's interest rate in effect at the time of purchase. The origin al difference plus all interest is then dis counted based on the resale date. The discount increases 10 percent every year after the purchase until after, 10 years. MACC share is, of course, then zero. This can simply be thought of as a deferred forgivable mortgage. All former lessees without standing caveats were given the new option during 1983.

At any time the client may exercise the option by notifying MACC and paying a $1 00 administrative fee to implement this caveat. This option effectively puts the farmer in the same position as if he purchased the land at market value and financed it through a regular mortgage. Mr. Chairman, there were a number of other questions. They dealt with the sale of lands that have 831 reverted back to the corporation and how the corporation handles the sales and the leasing of it. Generally, what has happened up till now, there is a manual of admi ni str ation in terms of how the guideli nes work.

But, in general terms, for the information of the honourable members, the land is advertised, generally through the farm papers - yes, the Cooperator and the local papers - and on tender for tender basis, and the corporation does appraise the land and the land will be sold at or above the appraised market price of the corporation at the time of sale. If the bids that come in fall below the appraised value of the land, the land then is offered for lease on terms anywhere from one to five years.

We have embarked on longer term leasing of land, based on requests that we've received from farmers, and that's generally the process that we've undertaken. The lands that have been sold, and I haven't put any names and numbers on the record, the 0/C's have all been filed. If the member wishes a list of those, we can provide the list there because all the 0/C's of land that were tendered and sold by tender are public documents and are filed in - I think it's in the Clerk's Office of the Executive Council - and they are public documents of which lands we had sold to whom and for the value we sold them.

There was a question about the current interest rates of MACC. The long-term rates are running at 10 percent and the intermediate term rates are running at about 10.25 percent. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: When land is tendered for lease, MACC owned land is tendered for lease, what are the guidelines they use for deciding who gets the lease? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, normally the lands are tendered and it would be the highest tender who would receive the lease unless, of course, the board has leeway in terms of dealing with a former client.

If the lands, for example, in the case of a quick claim, generally , in terms of the principles of our legislation, the board is following those guidelines where in fact management ability and sincerity of a producer in dealing with the corporation in the past are above board and are fair, then the corporation will in fact turn around and lease those lands back to the original owner on a negotiated price. We have a number of those circumstances and we have a number of others that were tendered which had been given up a number of years ago and are generally tendered out to the highest tender. MR. G.

FIN DLAY: Is there a stipulation that the successful applicants must be full time farmers? HON. B. URUSKI: No, Mr. Chairman, not on the tender basis. I don't believe so, no. MR. G. FINDLAY: The next area I want to talk on is have MACC lost any lands through tax sale? HON. B. URUSKI: No, not that I'm aware of. MR. G. FINDLAY: I had a councillor phone me this morning claiming to have a piece of property that MACC

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 had defaulted in their taxes, so that it went through tax sale. He went on further to say that their municipality has been having difficulty in getting MACC to pay their taxes on those pieces of property that they own in the mun icipality. They are a little upset in the fact that they have to pay the costs of running the municipality and having delinquent owners of land in terms of paying taxes is certainly not something they appreciate. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, there is no doubt that would concern us and I understand that one case, there has been a meeting between staff this week and the municipality and, of course, the corporation will be liable to the same penalties as any other taxpayer in terms of those lands. lt is unfortunate that in one case we - (lnterjection)- Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Arthur calls it a crime. Mr.

Chairman, there were up until the early 70's, many businesses who due to financial reasons and the interest rates charged on the arrears purposefully and willfully did not pay their taxes until the lands were just up for sale. lt was financially more beneficial for them not to pay the municipal taxes and invest their money into term deposits garnering a higher interest rate. We changed all that and there is less incentive. lt would have been mainly an administrative problem that we would have encountered but the lands did not go up for tax sale. They were in arrears. MR. G.

FINDLAY: How many parcels of land are in some form of arrears? One year, two years, six months? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the land that has reverted in title to the corporation should be all up to date. The land that we may have mortgages on, we would not know up until such a time as either there would be a notice sent to the mortgagee in terms of notifying that the land is going for tax sale because that would strictly be a relationship between the landowner at the time, the taxpayer as noted in Land Titles Office, and the municip ality . We would not have noticed.

I'm not even sure that we do get notice at the time it goes for tax sale, but I think we do as a mortgagee. In that group, we would not know unless we get notices of them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think that this is the highlight of the day as far as incredibility is concerned with the credibility of a government who are paying the taxes on farm land that has been repossessed by MACC. What a shoddy operation, Mr. Chairman.

As critic for Municipal Affairs, it's just been put on the record by my colleague from Virden that MACC are slow taxpayers, slow to get the money out of for the land taxes which are owed in the , community. Now, we have on the record that MACC lost a piece of property through a tax sale because they didn't pay their taxes. How does he expect the municipalities in Manitoba to collect taxes from the hard-pressed farm community, Mr. Chairman, when he isn't able to pay his own through the government? Is that the kind of a shoddy operation that he expects people to consider and continue to support?

He's the 832 Minister responsible for Agriculture not paying his taxes on land that has gone for tax sale, or allowing land to go to tax sale, Mr. Chairman. What kind of a record does this Minister of Agriculture have in the Province of Manitoba with all municipalities? Municipal governments are hard pressed to continue to finance their operations. The community of farmers are hard pressed to pay their taxes.

The government who are supposed to be of such great help to the people of Manitoba, we have the Minister of Agriculture losing land through the MACC organization which is responsible to him, loses land through a tax sale because they haven't paid their taxes? What does he expect? The third level of government in this country to carry their responsibilities on their back? lt's time he cleaned up his act, Mr. Chairman; loses land - (Interjection) - well, you've let MACC land go up for tax sale and the municipality take it through a tax sale?

On the record today it's been put that they have a poor pay record as far as municipalities are concerned. The Member for The Pas laughs at the fact that the municipalities have to carry this Minister of Agriculture on land taxes that he won't pay. I think it's incredible. I think that the Minister better immediately look into his record or his department 's record of paying of land taxes so that the municipalities don't have to carry him on their backs as well as the rest of the tough economic conditions. Yes, Mr. Chairman, I think that's what he'd better do. I think we should know more.

How many other parcels of land have MACC lost through tax sales? I hope in my recommendations that municipal ity, Mr. Chairman, would be not to give that land back unless they receive full payment for it, full payment for that land. Well, he says it's stupidity. The stupidity is in his administration and his shoddy way of looking after his department. Yes, Mr. Chairman, that's in the record of the Manitoba Legislature and this Minister of Agriculture, that he lost land because he wouldn't pay the taxes on property that they repossessed from the farmer. That's a pretty incriminating kind of record. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I want the record to state as far as the municipalities are concerned, I think that they should press this government as we were committed. Remember during our election campaign, we had an election commitment that government bills would be paid and paid promptly . Here it's been put on the record where his department, one of his agencies are slow tot the money in for land taxes, in fact, wouldn 't even pay in one case and lost farm land. My goodness sakes! That is incredible and I think that the Minister had better look into it immediately and make sure that he cleans up his act. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want that bafflegab to remain on the record because the fact of the matter is that there was an administrative foulup on this one parcel of land. lt was not lost by the . MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order being raised. MR. J. DOWNEY: The point of order, Mr. Chairman, is from his chair, the Minister responsible for Labour is making comments about my attendance in this committee. I think it's not proper procedure . . .

Thursday, 12 June, 1986 MR. H. ENNS: Particularly when Highways is being discussed in the other committee. MR. J. DOWNEY: That's right. There are two committees operating, I don't think it's within the rules of this House for him to cast the aspersions as to whether or not a member is running away or what he is, in fact, doing. He should keep it to himself. If I want to leave this committee room - I have other obligations as the Member for Lakeside said, Highways is in another committee room, I may have some questions in there. The point is he is not allowed to indicate whether anyone is in the Chamber or not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: To the same point of order - The Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: If the Honourable Member for Arthur feels somewhat irritated by my humourous jibe at him, I apologize because I thought that he would take it in the grace in which it was tendered, you know, in a loving, critical way. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, as I was indicating, I didn't want to leave that bafflegab on the record because it clearly was that.

We did in fact - and I admitted to the Honourable Member for Virden who raised this matter earlier - make an error in that the land in question was taken for tax sale not from MACC but from a farmer who had defaulted on his mortgage, and where we slipped up - and we did on this one occasion - is that we did not exercise our option to redeem those lands. Meetings have taken place between the municipality and the corporation, and we hope that this matter will be straightened out. I want to tell my honourable friend that the corporation's record of payment is second to none.

We do pay several hundred thousand dollars of municipal taxes every year on time to the municipalities. That is a record that really is nothing to be ashamed of at all. In fact, in this case, had the municipality repossessed those lands, I think they would have been all the wealthier in terms of repossessing the land for maybe $1 ,000 or $2,000 worth of taxes, and the land being worth $30,000 or $40,000, depending on the value of the quarter, they'd be far better off.

But no doubt the honesty of the municipal councillors wanting to say, look, let's keep the record straight, they should be paying up, but it was a slip-up on our part and that was the only occasion that we had; we did not exercise our option at the time that the default occurre d. MR. G. FINDLAY: Are the taxes fully paid up at this point in time on all parcels of land that MACC holds? HON. B. URUSKI: All the lands that MACC has title to, I will check that out to be certain, but as far as we're aware, all of them with the exception of that one matter, but we'll check that out. MR. G.

FINDLAY: The municipality in question claims they have title to that parcel of land now and, as you said, it's worth some $30,000 to $40,000 and there is some negotiation that obviously has to go on. I would also remind the Minister , or tell the Minister , that the councillor who called was some upset with the 833 nature in which the person from MACC approached him and said we'll get a battery of lawyers, and if you don't listen to us now, we'll come at you the hard way. So that's why he phoned me.

He wasn't all that happy with the method by which the corporation approached the municipality because it wasn't the municipality that made an error; it was strictly MACC that made an error. I would think that the Minister owes that municipality a letter of apology for the method in which the thing was handled and the way they were approached. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, if in fact we did in any way of even attempted, what I would call intimidation, I believe that we do owe the municipality an apology and we will look into the matter.

I certainly will be the first to say, look, we're the ones that fell down; we're the ones that made the error; we're the ones that really need to be in the good graces with the municipality; no doubt about it. I have no difficulty with that. MR. G. FINDLAY: If in an analysis of whether there are any further taxes owing, if the Minister will direct staff to be sure that they are brought up-to-date and kept up-to-date in the future, that that becomes a strict poli cy. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, he can consider that request and that statement as being a mandate and an order to the corporation. MR. G.

FINDLAY: When a person applies for a loan under MACC, is it mandatory or anything of that order that he have crop insurance, maintain crop insurance when he is under mortgage to MACC? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in general terms it would not be a requirement. In areas where there would be comprehensive refinancing and some very tight financial situation where the corporation comes in to assist with operating lines and the rest, it may be a requirement in terms of the protection of that farmer to say part of that operating package should include crop insurance.

Sort of in the broad terms, we do not stipulate that everyone who has a loan with the corporation be required to purchase crop insurance - we don't do that - but in tight financial situations where in fact we've extended credit, where the situation is what I would call dicey, there is no doubt that part of the refinancing package and the like, we will stress that crop insurance be a condition of that refinancing. MR. G. FINDLAY: You have different loan programs. Does that policy apply to all loan programs? I guess specific comments on the guaranteed operating loan probably would be beneficial. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman , yes, on the guaranteed operating loan program, our own clients would be required as well as the same requ