ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PRIVILEGES and ELECTIONS 31-32 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. A. Anstett Constituency of Springfield VOL. XXXI No. 56 - 7:30 p.m., TUESDAY, 4 OCTOBER, 1983. Printed by the Office of the Queens Prmter. Province ot Manitobll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Sieve BAI\IMAN, Robert (Bob) SLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEV, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAV, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEV, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon.Yic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Vert�ndrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Os borne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 TIME - 7:30 p.m. LOCATION - Winnipeg CHAIRMAN - Mr. Andy Anstett (Springfield) ATTENDANCE - QUORUM - 6 Members of the committee present: Hon. Messrs. Bucklaschuk and Cowan Messrs. Anstett, Ashton, Brown, Graham, Kovnats, Lecuye r, Malinowski, and Ms. Phillips WI TNESSES: Mr. Taib Soufi, Private Citizen Dr. Vedanand, National Association for Canadians of Indian Origins Ms. S. Stephansson, Private Citizen Mr. Chandra, National Association for Canadians of Indian Origins Mr.

Georges Forest, Union Nationale Metisse St. Joseph du Manitoba Mr. Barry Turnbull, Private Citizen MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: Proposed Resolution to amend

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee, come to order. We have a quorum. Before I begin to call on the delegations, the Clerk has received the resignation of the Honourable Ms. Dolin. I under Ms. Phillips is to replace her. Can I have a motion to that effect? MR. G. LECUYER: I so move. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Lecuyer and Mr. Malinowski. Is that agreed? (Agreed) Agreed and so ordered. Now, I'm going to have to ask the Clerk where we left off. - (Interjection) - Order please. We look on high for all agreements in the committee. Mr. Roy Brunka, please, Mr.

Roy Brunka; Heather Stone; Henry Huber; Jack Froese; Derwyn Davies; Jesse Vorst; Ken Morley. Taib Soufi. MR. T. SOUFI: Mesdames et Messieurs, M. le president. MR. CHAIRMAN: One moment please. Could you bear with us while members get the receivers. Anyone in the audience who would like a receiver, who does not have one, can sign one out with the technician at the back of the booth. Please proceed. MR. T. SOUFI: Merci M. le president. Mesdames et Messieurs, M. le president, bonsoir . Je me presente ici en tant que fils adoptif du Manitoba.

Et en particuli er, en tant que fils adoptif du Manitoba francophone qui m'a accueilli il y a quinze ans. Je voudrais commencer pour parler sur le "bill" 23 de I'Acte du Manitoba. Vous rappelez ces deux vers de Louis David Aiel: "Vous souffrez quand un nom canadien-franc;:ais vivra. Vous tiichez de l'abattre en le persecutant." Pour quelqu'un qui etait venu comme moi vers ce pays plein de promesses pour tous les desherites de la terre, j'aurais cru que ces vers etaient un petit peu trop exageres.

Je viens ici porter temoignage que durant quinze ans, j'ai assiste sans exageration a une persecution outree de la jeunesse francophone dont j'ai eu la charge. J'ai enseigne aussi a des Anglo-Manitobains. Et c'est au nom de mes etudiants, au nom de la jeunesse que je vous adresse ce soir c'est quelques mots. Je voudrais vous poser d'abord une question qui est la suivante. Vous qui etes les representants, vous qui etes les elus du peuple manitobain qui representez la province, une des provinces du Manitoba, qu'elle est votre responsabilite a l'egard de la jeunesse?

Un ecrivain franc;:ais ... disait: "Nous sommes les heritiers de ceux qui sont morts, les associes de ceux qui vivre et la providence de ceux qui naitront." Je n'ai point trouve ici la verification de ces paroles. Les heritiers de ceux qui sont morts certes. Sommes-nous des associes et en vue de quoi?

Alors ce soir la question qui me vient a !'esprit des questions qui me viennent par esprit, c'est qu'elle a ete le role des educateurs durant quinze ans et durant peut-etre depuis 1890 du jour ou on a enleve la langue au Franco-Manitobains et qu'on les a museles pour que leur langue soit bani de la rue et ne trouve de refuge que dans leur foyer et dans leur coeur. Qui est­ ce qu'eduquait la jeunesse, si les dirigeants jouent avec un droit naturel et sacre d'une communaute.

Qu'est qu'un pays democratique et libre qui se pretend justement champion de la moderation et promoteur de la paix sur la scene internationale lorsqu'il n'est pas capable de rendre justice a une

partie des siens. Encore une fois, a quoi sert !'education si !'education est la promotrice de toutes les valeurs humaines universelles. A quoi sert la science si la science est revelation de la verite et promotion de la justice. Lorsque je suis arrive en 1968, des jeunes de 14 et 15 ans jusqu'a l'iige de 18 ans me demandaient: "Peut­ on faire des mathematiques en franc;:ais? Est-ce qu'il existe des livres scientifiques en franc;:ais?" Et alors j'etais tres triste parce que je me suis dit, cette belle province, ce beau pays qu'est le Canada, comment est-ce possible qu'on a demuni toute une

partie de cette communaute fondatrice de cette province, qui a accueilli tous les refugies de la terre, qui etait done aussi le reve de Louis Aiel? Comment se fait-il qu'on 1134

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 les a mis dans !'ignorance de leur brillante culture, de leur heritage qui ne date pas, je le rapelle, il y a un siecle, mais qui date de plusieurs millenaires. Comment se fait-il qu'un pays aussi civilise, aussi democratique ait pu bafouer et mettre a terre les droits sacres de la langue maternelle des enfants dont j'avais la charge. 11 fallait done, j'aurais pu choisir d'aller vers la majorite anglophone et etre peut-etre a l'heure actuelle parmi les grandes chaires des universitas. Mais mon ideale etait autre.

J'etais ne pour donne une education et tacher de faire prendre conscience a chaque individu qu'il etait absolument unique et irrempla<;able, non seulement a ses yeux mais aux yeux de sa communaute. J'ai commence par leur montrer que la langue frant;aise, comme toutes les langues, etait digne de respect et de vehiculee une culture ou elle a fait preuve justement de genie; elle a donne naissance a des genies dont toute la civilisation humaine s'enorgueillie.

J'essayais ensuite de leur montrer que dans leurs valeurs d'amour et de fraternite, il y avait place, non pas pour le sectarisme, non pas pour le racisme, non pas pour la xenophobia, mais pour une humanite traternelle, tranche et libre. Mais comment est-ce qu'on peut faire passer dans !'esprit d'un jeune des valeurs humaines alors qu'autour de lui il ne peut meme pas s'adresser a ces representants, ceux qui le representant, tant sur la scene provincial que sur la scene peut-etre federal, dans sa langue sans diffultes?

Comment peut-on dire qu'il n'y a pas de racisme, qu'il n'y a pas de xenophobia, qu'il n'y a pas de dedain? Lorsque ceux qui sont soient dans un parti soient dans un autre, je ne suis pas ici pour faire la promotion d'un parti conservateur ou autre, ceux qui se presentent en tant que politician ne sont meme pas capables de respecter leur propre constitution. Que doit repondre un educateur a de tels objections? Qu'est-ce que la politique?

J'avais toujours cru que la politique, comme disaient les Grecques qui ont donne justement naissance a la civilisation Occidentale, que c'etait l'art et la science de mener les etres humains a la vertu et tous les citoyens quel que soient leurs conditions sociales au bonhe ur. Comment ce fait-il alors que les Franco- Manitobains est eu a souffrir et qu'ils aient eu a se cacher pour continuer a survivre dans leur langue. Un incident, si vous me permettez de rappeler un incident que ma femme a vecu quatre jours apres notre arrivee. Elle s'etait perdue dans le magasin d'Eaton.

Et elle cherchait desesperement la sortie. Elle s'adressait vainement dans sa langue frant;aise n'est-ce pas, qu'elle croyait etre, elle aussi une langue universelle, n'est-ce pas. Pour demander seulement la tacon de sortir d'Easton, desesperement en vain se refugia derriere des manteaux et se mise a pleurer. Alors, je dois vous poser une question. Est-ce que le gouvernement du Canada, et les gouvernements des autres provinces, sont-ils a ce point-la insensibles pour qu'ils puissent propager a l'exterieur aux autres nations cette affirmation sur laquelle le Canada est bilingue?

Chose desespere egalement, comment se fait-il que dans !'education superieure dans les universitas, dans les ecoles, alors que nous avions toutes les facilites ici pour apprendre diverses langues et nous penetrer de diverses cultures qui serait un enrichissement absolument incroyable pour le Canada qui deviendrait alors la nation 1135 exemplaire pour l'humanite entiere on se referme et on tire gloire du fait que nous soyons unilingues. C'est la une honte pour une nation aussi civilisee et aussi avancee et aussi humanitaire et humaniste que notre pays.

La formation des jeunes exige un appui de la part des gouvernants. Quel est cet appui? En quinze ans, la premiere fois, il fallait enseigner l'histoire et la geographie en fran<;ais seulement; le reste etait chose interdite ou plus ou moins banie tacitement. Ensuite il fallait se battre pour etre francais a 50 -50. Ensuite il fallait se battre pour avoir le francais a 100 pour cent. Je ne suis pas venu faire un sermon. Je suis venue seulement demander au nom de !'ideal qu'on a choisi en tant qu'educateurs que vous tassiez justice a une

partie de ceux qui ont tonde le Canada et qui ont tout a fait le droit, meme le droit plus que quiconque, avoir leur culture s'epanouir et se developper. Je ne suis pas ne francais, je ne suis pas ne anglais. Je ne suis pas de culture francaise seulement. Je ne favorise pas une culture au-dessus d'une autre. Ce que je vous demande c'est que tout simplement de respecter !'idea! politique a savoir que nous sommes d' abord et avant tout des et res humains. Lorsque j'ai entenciu les plaidoyers qui etaient en fait en faveur des droits des francoj)hones, bien souvent j'etais tres attriste.

Bien souvent, j'appartiens a une autre culture et je peux aussi, j'ai retenu mes larmes, pas pour moi seulement. Mais c'est parce que defendre la cause du francais, c'est defendre aussi la cause de tous les etres humains. Si par example, aujourd'hui nous demandons a ce que !'entente qui a ete signee le 17 mai soit respectee integralement, c'est pour montrer que les hommes politiques ont une parole.

Parce que si les dirigeants n'ont pas de paroles, ne vous attendez pas a ce que les citoyens ne puissent pas enfreindre des lois impunement et ne venez pas alors les mettre en prison pour des crimes qui sont encore moins grands que le crime d'avoir enlever a un peuple son droit sacre et d'avoir commis un genocide culture! et linguistique. Et en plus de cela, d'avoir pendu son martyr qu'on a jete derriere le parlement alors que son monument devrait etre a !'entree ici.

Je lui rends hommage a Louis Riel, oui ta vie de Riel, en se battant pour sa nation, il se battait non pas seulement pour les francophones, pour les Canadians frant;ais et pour les Metis, il se battait pour une cause qui depassait cela. Pour un homme sense, pour un vrai politician, defendre les droits des minorites c'est defendre les droits de tout le monde. 11 n'y est pas question d'esprit de partisanerie. La question, je le repete, depasse !'esprit de parti, !'esprit partisant. Quelque chose qui est naturelle doit etre honnete. Les citoyens attendant que vous soyez honnetes avec eux.

Et maintenant je passe, peut-etre, a un autre aspect. On parle de !'inflation, de !'aspect economique. On a cede parce que les Canadians francais ont enfin decouvert, avec la lutte de M. Forest et puis d'autres luttes qui avaient ete menees avant et apres, que la Cour supreme pouvait vous faire traduire toutes les lois et done mener la province a la banqueroute. Mais on a oublie qu'il y a des choses qui ne sont pas monnayables; qu'on ne ressuscitera jamais les assimiles

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 et ceux qui sont perdus a jamais pour la communaute francophone et pour la communaute canadienne toute entiere. Si un etre humain developpe son plein potentiel, il ne tombe pas dans la misere comme les Canadiens franc;:ais l'ont ete. Parce qu'il est vrai, et vous ne me le nierez pas, que les Canadiens franc;:ais avaient le niveau de vie le plus bas du Canada, juste apres les lndiens, les Natifs. lis avaient le niveau de vie le plus bas il y a une decennie. D'ou cela vient-il?

Non pas qu'ils etaient moins intelligents, non pas qu'ils etaient sensibles, non pas qu'ils etaient travailleurs. lis ont defriche, ils ont arrache, ils ont prepare une terre. Mais c'est que tout simplement on leur a pas permis de s'epanouir pleinement, n'est-ce pas, dans leur langue, dans leur culture. Leur situation economique done aujourd'hui ou l'on parle d'inflation, leur situation economique est le reflet de la situation historique qui leur a ete faite. Et c'est eux qui devraient etre les premiers a crier.

Or, ils ont fait don a la province, non seulement, ils ont fait preuve de clemence, mais ils ont fait don a la province et a tous les habitants de cette province d'une generosite incroyable. Les autres peuples se sont revoltes. lis ont pris les armes. Heureusement pour nous, nous sommes dans un pays ou on ne parle pas d'armes. Mais jusqu'a quand la patience des Metis et des Canadiens fran<;:ais, jusqu'a quand une democratie, n'est-ce pas, pourra-t-elle impunement bafouer les choses les plus elementaires contenues dans sa constitution.

Revenir sur sa parole lorsqu'on a conclu une entente, tout simplement pour un electorat, c'est faire de la politique a bon marcher. La politique des petits pas. Quand on s'engage dans la politique, il taut voir a la distance du Canada, d'un ocean a l'autre, il taut voir l'aven ir.

Or si vous voulez etre la providence de ceux qui sont a naitre, vous avez, Mesdames et Messieurs, a interroger vos consciences et a vous dire j'ai aujourd'hui a accomplir une tache qui n'est pas pour moi mais pour mes petits enfants; comme mon fils, qu'il soit anglophone ou francophone, qu'il soit germanophone ou qu'il soit ukrainien ou qu'il soit de n'importe quelle langue ou de n'importe quelle race, se trouvera heureux dans la terre manitobaine. A ce moment-la, le Manitoba sera l'exemple pour tout le Canada.

Nous avons la chance d'etablir une humanite, non pas une humanite simplement ideale, mais un ideal humain incarne dans cette province. Mais pour cela, il taut abattre les prejuges. 11 taut abattre les prejuges qui se sont enracines a travers l'histoire. 11 taut aller par-dela de l'histoire, revenir a l'humanite. J'aimerais en terminant citer encore Louis David Riel: "Nous sommes grace a Dieu nes pour les idees belles, pour les actes d'honneur et de beau devouement. Nous avons de l'essor pour les vertus reelles mais votre faux gouvernement pesent sur nous sans cesse et nous coupe les ailes.

Faut-il esperer avoir un vrai gouvernement." Je tiens a rend re hommage au gouvernement actuel et cela non pas pour etre contre !'opposition. Mais tout simplement parce que le gouvernement actuel a pris conscience qu'il fallait rectifier les injustices du passe. Le Manitoba peut et est capable de servir comme exemple, je le repete, pour l'unite nationale, l'unite canadienne.

Et non seulement pour cela. 11 peut servir d'exemple face a la Russie, face aux Etats-Unis, face aux peuples de la terre, comme quoi tous les humains venus de tous les horizons ont trouve enfin refuge enfin dans un pays qui sait reconnaitre et respect er, non seulement ses constitutions mais les droits individuels et sacres de la personne humaine. Evidemment vous allez vous poser la question: Est­ ce que lui aussi veut promouvoir toute une ribambelle de cultures qui debarquent ici? Pourquoi pas? dirais­ je. Si par exemple chacun peut parler sa langue et sa culture, oui.

Mais aucune communaute n'etait venue ici pour coloniser ou conquer ir, a !'exception des Canadiens anglais, des Canadiens fran<;:ais, des Metis, n'est-ce pas. Eux sont les fondateurs. Les autres arrivants ont les memes droits, je l'entend, les memes devoirs que tous les autres citoyens. Mais nous sommes venus, moi qui n'appartiens a aucune des deux langues, en sachant tn3s bien qu'il y avait deux langues officielles: l'anglais et le fran<;:ais. Ce n'est pas demain que je demanderais ac e que soit enchasse dans la Constitution ma langue.

Je serais pourtant tres heureux et je crois que mes etudiants le seront aussi de pouvoir tend re a la main a tout le monde si on pouvait respecter la parole donnee. Je vous remercie. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Soufi. Mr. Lecuyer , questions? MR. G. LECUVER: M. le president, je vous demande peut-etre juste pour un instant de me permettre de contrarier peut-etre les reglements et de dire a M.

Soufi que j'apprecie enormement ses propos, ses propos tres humains; en fait que j'appelerais plutot un temoignage venant de sa part, lui dont le fran<;:ais ni l'anglais sont la langue maternelle, qui n'est pas originaire du Manitoba mais dont son pays natal a bien eu l'obligeance de m'accueillir a mon tour pendant trois ans en Algerie ou j'ai pu enseigner comme Franco­ Manitobain ma langue seconde, c'est-a-dire l'anglais.

Et je voudrais tout simplement signaler pour mes collegues que dans ce meme lycee ou j'ai pu enseigner ma langue seconde, il s'enseignait aussi, en plus du fran<;:ais, il s'enseignait l'anglais, naturellement l'arabe comme langue premiere, le russe, l'allemand, l'espagnol, l'italien et quelques autres langues que je ne me souviens pas a !'instant. 11 s'enseignait au moins dix langues dans le lycees ou j'enseignais. Et <;:a c'est a l'exemple, je pense, de !'Europe. Mais dans le cas echeant ici, on parle d'un pays en voie de developpement.

Done si dans les pays en voie de developpement on peut voir aussi loin, on peut voir aussi large, son temoignage done est d'autant plus valable. Merci M. le president. MR. T. SOUFI: Merci M. Lecuyer. MR. CHAIRMAN: Questions by honorable members. Seeing no questions, Mr. Soufi, thank you very much for your presentation here this evening. MR. T. SOUFI: Merci M. le president. Merci Mesdames et Messieurs. 1136

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 MR. CHAIRMAN: Henry Elias. I understand the Clerk has received the resignation of Mr. Nordman, and that Mr. Downey is to be added to the committee. MR. H. GRAHAM: You're again a little ahead of the time, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Clerk has not yet received the resignation of Mr. Nordman. That completes . . . A MEMBER: Where does that leave Mr. Downey? MR. CHAIRMAN: No one knows for sure. A MEMBER: On the outside looking in. MR. CHAIRMAN: Dr. Vedanand. DR. VEDANAND: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to appear before your committee. My name is Vedanand.

I'm appearing here as a private citizen and also as president of Hindi Fellowship, an organization to promote and preserve the heritage of Hindi language, which is one of the national languages of India. Also, I would like to present a point of view, which perhaps might be a bit different than what you have been hearing amongst various presentations. The question of language is always a very emotional question whenever it comes up for discussion.

John Stuart Mill, speaking in an address to one of the universities in England in 1865, he was author of "On Liberty ," suggested that every student should have the opportunity to get instruction, besides English, in German, in French, besides the classics, Greek and Latin. Now, that view seems to have been a very unique view of instructions in humanities, which is very broad based. Very few seem to have fascination for learning languages these days. In fact, one might even say that there is a definite indifference amongst the students to learn more than one language.

In some cases this indifference almost borders on like being contempt for other languages. I am also a professor at the University of Manitoba, so I've been seeing the students and their capabilities in languages.

I'm reminded of the famous - attributed to one of the great historians - that the true test of any civilized government is its capability to treat its minorities with compassion and empathy, and therefore some of the minority rights for which this effort is being made to entrench them could be perhaps taken care of very well, only when there is some kind of guarantee or some kind of legal support. it is in this context that I am very supportive of the move that the government is making. I have also seen in the press, one of the amendments that had been presented by MAPAL, one of the new associations,

Section 23. 10, and I think that follows in the same spirit and I certainly will support that as well. The question of language then has to be viewed in what I might call psychological space, and this is the different point of view that I'm trying to present. Apart from being a political issue and something which is being claimed to be highly divisive, and often it is divisive, I think the contemporaries of the world, and particularly the world of business, suggest that we should really take a look at this issue from a much broader perspective. Let me get back to the inner world of the child.

When the child grows up in a certain cultural environment - of course, we talk of mother tongue - the basic communication capabilites develop in the child in the so-called mother tongue. And in a multicultural society the mother tongue, the tongue of the mother, could be very well different from English or French. If that is so, then the child who grows in a dual environment begins to have a world view where he is bound to have some kind of identity confusion and also identity crisis. The well-known psychoanalyst, Erickson, has theories about the inner world of children.

When he talks about identity crisis and identity confusion, he also suggests that some of the children, who grow with this kind of identity crisis, towards the latter period of their lives, they have remnants of a negative identity. I'm sorry if I am being more abstract, but some of these issues are very crucial to my presentation and therefore I think I would like to elaborate on them later on. He further makes uut a case for nurturing a more healthy ego identity for the children of minorities.

This could be nurtured in the seed-bed of appropriate linguistic and cultural environment, because folk tales, fantasies, mythologies, they could be totally different, and the greater ability with the language will enable them to preserve not only their own cultural heritage, but would give them also a world view which is broader.

Therefore, if the children could go with capabilities in more than one language - and I'm not so sure they should not learn English and French, English and French they could learn, but besides those they could have some other language as well - therefore in those situations you'll find that these children would have greater capabilities in languages and also in looking at cultural differences. A lot of the problems that some of the businessmen and executives face today is the managing of cultural differences. This is in the context of global and international trade.

Corporations which go over wide and try to operate in the biggest parts of the world, they always have these problems, because they do have executives who have the capability to handle those kinds of problems. Therefore, I'm suggesting that children who have greater capabilities with the language, who have greater tolerance of other languages, they develop a much broader world view, and therefore they more cosmopolitan and a broader liberal outlook of world reality.

The contemporary wo •• d of realities is forcing these kind of issues upon us, and those people who have to later on become not only political leaders and future decision-makers, business executives, they have to face these problems. A year ago I spent some time doing research in Japan, and the thing that you observed in Japan was to see how they want to learn other languages, and particularly English. They want to try their English on you. Whenever there is a Japanese business delegation, which goes out to negotiate trade, investment in technolo gy, and all kinds of these trade 1137

I Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 negotiations. Even if they cannot speak very good English, everyone is speaking English. Not only that, if they're going to Mexico, they will be speaking Spanish; if they go into Africa, they will speaking Swahili.

A Mexican Trade Minister told me some time back, wherein they attracted a plant from California in Mexico, and this person said that one thing they found very different about the Japanese executives was that nobody asked them to learn the Spanish language, but after work they all would stay and they would hire a personal tutor and they would start learning Spanish and within three to four months they are all speaking Spanish. The only persons who don't care to learn the language, he said, are the Americans.

They come from eight to five, the job is finished, they are the ones who want everyone to learn English, they don't want to learn the language. That attitude, Sir, I would suggest is not the attitude which will give us a greater share in the world market and greater capability to compete in the world market. I think this perspective is symbolic of that kind of tolerance, that kind of acceptance of possibilities. I am suggesting, therefore, that the language issue has some definite spill-over effects.

Greater ability to learn languages, more than one, would also suggest that people will have cultural sensitivity and empathy. They will much better manage cultural differences. There are some very interesting practical managerial implications. Our students and future managers, decision-makers, could be become very myopic in their world view if they want to learn only one language. This, I suggest, would be a very dangerous kind of incapacity in all future citizens and leaders.

We see a mindset of intolerance and prejudice against other cultures and languages; therefore, a more liberal and more cosmopolitan outlook would provide capacity for accepting diversity and a capacity also to manage divers ity. Also in decision-making there are issues and there are styles which are often discussed, and one of them has been labelled as homogenistic thinking, in which we force our point of view on the others in negotiations, in the styles of decision-making, in the way things are to be done.

If the group doesn't agree to our way of doing things, then that is accepted to be very disfunctional, let me put it this way. Therefore, if we have to develop these kinds of capabilities in our future business leaders, I think it will good for our students to develop a much broader world view and a much better handle on outside reality. As I mentioned earlier, our great trade partners, I used Japan, and there is a great world of opportunity in the Middle East, China, Asia, etc.

Experts on these regions, who are looking at these issues, are suggesting that we've got to have better understanding of the Chinese and Japanese. Today the World Bank publishes its reports not only in English, but in Arabic, Japanese and Chinese; some years back, these were not possibilities. it is this kind of point of view which needs some emphasis, because we do not have, even at most of our industries, great exploration in many languages. As I said, when our trade delegations go outside, we have to depend on others to translate. Our managers have a very rigid belief and structure from that point of view.

Demobeglan, (phonetic) who is one of the noted world authorities on . . . countries and particularly Japan, told me a very interesting story last year. He said here we are working with all the top executives, Exxon, Gulf, etc., and finds that the even the top management in these companies have got their mindset. This mindset begins with the point of view that the world begins in Europe and ends up in North America.

Yet there is a region out there which is very productive, very competitive, and what is worse, they want to compete in this area almost on our terms, employing the same labour, paying the same wage rates, and competing under the same labour laws. There is a fetish amongst all managers for strategy. When we talk of strategy, it has almost become a cultural peculiar ity. When we talk of fetish, what I mean is this: The French take off very easily when you talk of good food or romance, so do all managers.

Yet when it comes to competing for worldwide, we find that with all our great strategy and tactics, there are many areas in which we have to take stock of our way of doing things. We have to improve our capabilities. Therefore, those who have the capacity to become great leaders, they must also have the capacity to turn mere mortals into folk heroes. They don't have to become martyrs, but certainly they have to have the capacity to turn the mere moral into doing committed, devoted, honest work. When . . . took over recently - not recent ly, four years back . . .

Corporation, the English said $2.2 billion, and they went down and talked to the people. They said this company is losing market shares and products are very poor in quality, and they are going bankrupt. They said this great society has been built by your forefathers with honest committed work and a capacity for vision. All we want from you is honest work. I'm suggesting that kind of capacity for vision requires that we must have a broader perspective and outlook to give that capability to our managers. lt decries a moral vision, more than legal and political kind of strategies.

Let me present the scenario about the myth of a well-educated businessman in Canada; he knows only English. Not only that, he does not know other languages, he hates other languages. And if it is deeply embedded in his conscience the notion of cultural superiority or the superiority of one language, that is a reflection on that kind of attitude of tolerance to other cultures.

I'm suggesting that we have to give a greater capability to our future leaders, the ability to manage cultural differences, and at the grassroot level I'm suggesting that if you have this kind of tolerant view about other languages and other cultures, perhaps that would come naturall y. We usually always have what is known as a kind of behaviour discrepancy between what we want to do and \Aw'hat t.Ne ideally desire should be done; ther�fore, there is always a gap between what we would like to do and what should be done. Governments always face thi s dilemma, and governments face some moral dilemmas too.

Therefore, it is good to raise these questions in meetings. But if you wanted to say how much funding has been done to make sure that Japanese is taught in some of the universities so that they have experts in Japanese - they are going to be a great, either trading partner, or they will be great competitors for our products - and we'll find out that those concrete examples are not there. Therefore, I would, again in passing, suggest that one of the challenges that seem to stem from this kind 1138

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 of issue is that we must have an opportunity for creating an environment in which we will nurture future leaders, business executives, who have a more tolerant view, greater cultural sensitivity and greater empathy for the issues that will come very handy when we have to fight the battle of world leadership in the field of business and in the field of social, political issues, as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, Dr.

Vedanand, a number of people who have appeared before this committee have claimed that because English is the language of trade between Canada and the United States, and Canada and some of its other partners, that French was not a language that was particularly useful, or to any extent useful, in world trade. In fact, many said that they saw it as perhaps as a disadvantage. I think I gathered from what you have said, I understand your view, but I would like you to just dwell on that for a moment. DR. VEDANAND: Thank you, sir. These statements have to be viewed in a proper perspective.

Wh en they say that English is, it is only in terms of some chronological time period in which English has become important. Certai nly, by the same, turn around and say Japanese was never a language which anybody needed to learn. Arabic was not a language which anybody had to learn, and the great fortunes of nations even wanted to stay the same way. Although, English had become the world language, no doubt, but just as the British Empire was there, so was the French Empire, and French went from France to many cultures and many countries, and those people who have a proud tradition of French, as well.

If the United States had a different language, just for the sake of argument I am saying, and being the most important industrial nation in the world, somebody would be valuing that language as more important. In perspective, I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that importance of languages in world trade are there but, at the same time, there are newer forces emerging, which force us to have a much broader outlook and perspective about the language capabilities. lt is not English alone which perhaps would help us, we'll have to have a greater capability about languages. This is my point of view. Thank you. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Further questions from honourable members? Seeing none, Dr. Vedanand, thank you very much for being here today and representing your organization. DR. VEDANAND: Thank you for your service. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bohdanka Dutka, George Rykman, Don Mclvor, S. Stephansson. A. Warkentin. Is it Mrs. Warkentin? MS. S. STEPHANSSON: Stephansson. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, Stephansson, sorry. MS. S.

STEPHANNSON: My presentation will be brief for the main emphasis is on the cost of bilingualism, but I will deviate a bit to say that I am bilingual and I feel it is an asset to know more than one language. lt seems to me that this has to be achieved through the schools and through interest in the home. Ideal as it might seem to some to have a bilingual country , nowhere can it be economically sound. In 1980, the 1870 act was re-enacted, that is to say the French and English language has equal status in the courts and the Legislature.

Therefore, I see no reason to entrench an amendment to make provincial agencies bilingual. This will displace a number of people and cause further divisiveness and hate. This is done at a great cost to the public, considering that we seem to be catering to about 6 percent of the population of Manitoba. I don't believe that any person should have special status. lt seems to me that we are getting to the stage where bilingualism is more important than qualifications for a job.

There seems to be a definite bias in the bilingual program in favour of the French; in other words, a double standard, which provides services and financing to French-Canadians while denying similar services to English-speaking Canadians. French-speaking Canadians outside of Quebec receive financing from both the Federal Government and Quebec Government, while the English-speaking Quebecer, who wants a freedom of choice, does not get a penny from either government. Another example of a double standard is the funding of the legal expenses of Mr.

Forest in his fight against an English-only parking ticket here in Winnipeg. A similar challenge was instituted in Montreal against an English-only traffic ticket. but the Federal Government did not provide any money for the legal costs. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind that the Liberal Government goes out of its way to support French­ speaking individuals and groups who want to promote and enhance the French culture across Canada. The funding for the bilingual program is obtained by uniformly taxing the whole of Canada, however, most of the money seems to go to promote interests of one ethnic group. Mr.

Yalden, the Minister for Languages, while speaking on a cross-country program, stated that an enormous amount of money has been spent and expenditures will increase every year for the bilingual program. He also said, "Unfortu nately, there is a great deal of waste." Another statement he made was that he was disappointed in the Federal Government who seemed to be lax in the enforcement of bilingualism in Quebec. Maybe someone here could tell me why we have this con centrated effort by the Federal Government supporting further French usage in Manitoba, while they totally ignore what is going on in Quebec.

Every service the public receives is funded through taxation and now we seem to have an extra service being forced by the Federal Government. So conseque ntly , the other services will receive less. Two prime examples are higher education and Medicare, which are being threatened and maybe even sacrificed for the benefit of the bilingual program. So, in closing, my parting comment is: The extended bilingual program is ruinous to the economy and is also creating antagonism and divisiveness across all of Canada. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Ms. Stephansson. Questions for Ms.

Stephansson from members of the committee? 1139

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 Mr. Ashton. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, I just wondering if you aware of the cost of the agreement that was worked out here in Manitoba, and what your thoughts were on that cost. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: I didn't hear the first part of your question. MR. S. ASHTON: I am wondering if you aware of the cost of the agreement that we are discussing today. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: No, I don't know what the cost is. MR. S. ASHTON: The reason I'm asking is because one point that the government has stressed throughout is that we're not interested in establishing a program which duplicates federal bilingualism. MR.

CH AIRMAN: Order please. The purpose of questions is not to debate but to ask questions for clarification on the material in the brief. Ms. Stephansson did not make reference to the cost of the provincial program and has said she is not aware of them, so obviously questions on the subject will not facilitate the deliberations of the committee. Do you have another line of questioning, Mr. Ashton? MR. S. ASHTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, we're discussing the provincial jurisdiction, it was a lead into a question which had nothing with the federaL MR. CH AIRMAN: Could you ask a question for clarification, then, please?

MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, I wilL I'm just wondering then, in view of the fact that we have tried to avoid some of those costs here in Manitoba, whether if the cost factor was not a problem, whether you would still be opposed to some form of French services here in Manitoba. MS. S. STEPHANSSON: I am not opposed to it, as I said. We have it in the courts and the Legislature and we also have it in the schools and have had for a long time. MR. S. ASHTON: So you are not opposed to French services per se then? MS. S. STEPHANSSON: No, as they were, as they have been re-enacted from 1870. MR. R.

DOERN: So what areas do you disagree with then in the proposal? MS. S. STEHANSSON: Well, I mentioned it in my brief, obviously you weren't listening. I said provincial agencies. MR. S. ASHTON: My question was if there was not a concern about the cost, what areas you were concerned about, but obviously . . . ? MS. S. STEPHANSSON: We all know that we don't get this for nothing. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions, Mr. Ashton? Further questions for members? Mr. Doern. MR. R.

DOERN: You talked about federal funding and so on, could you indicate whether you believe that ethnic or linguistic groups should be totally self-sufficient, or do you think they could receive some federal or provincial support? MS. S. STEPHANSSON: Well, the country is declared bilingual, so we have French and English officiall y. Are you referring to funding for other ethnic groups? MR. R. DOERN: Yes, any ethnic or linguistic group, do you think it's appropriate for the Federal Government or the province to fund them, or would you suggest they are not eligible and shouldn't be supported by any government? MS. S.

STEPHANSSON: Well, not really. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions? Seeing none, Ms. Stephansson, thank you very much for your presentation. A. Warkentin, Remi Smith, Leo Teillet, Tom Cohoe, Mario Sosa, Ron Nash, Luba A. Kwasney, Roy Brunka, Heather Stone, Henry Huber, Jack Froese, Derwyn Davies, Jesse Vorst, Ken Morley, Henry Elias. I believe I have called all of the names remaining on the list this evening. Is there anyone whose name was on the list whose name I did not call? Seeing none, ladies and gentleman on the committee, that concludes the list in front of us.

I'll make the standard last call to the gallery. Is there anyone in the gallery whose name was not on the list who wishes to make a presentation to the committee? Two individuals, please come forward, Sir. Your name, Sir. MR. CHANDRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, my name is Chandra. I am the regional Vice-President for Manitoba for the National Association for Canadians of Indian Origins. I represent 20,000 people of Indian origin from India, Pakistan, Ceylon, East Africa, Asia and South America. We are broadly located in Winnipeg and some outside of Winnipeg.

I have watched these proceedings with some kind of trepidation and in fear. I'm sure all Manitobans, as all Canadians, respect and love certain values. One of the values, outstanding, and perhaps demands importance is tolerance of other's rights. This is how democracy thrives, and this is how democracy builds on the basis or bases that promote that liberalism, that those considerations that promote multiculturalism. Coming down to the entrenchment of French language rights, I think we have the view from two points of view.

One, as people of my background view it, is philosophical, historical and constitutional, all rolled in one. We believe that for the last 93 years illegality 1140

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 existed in this province, denying French of their legal rights for whatever reasons - and I'm not accusing anybody, it could be out of sheer ignorance - was a constitutional denial and that illegality has to be corrected. The sooner it is done, the better for all Manitobans that live in this great province. In that denial we view a dark future not only for French, but all ethnic minorities that live in this province, that elected to live in this province.

Good - that a case came around and the Supreme Court ruled on that, and therefore we today are debating it, although I thought if democracy is the prime consideration that should not have arisen. Nevertheless, whatever reason, if it's denied, the time has come that we correct the historical constitutional fact with grace and good will. I'm flabbergasted, Mr. Chairman, to see that a fact that is so clear is not perceived by what were political considerations that coax and guide some of our friends here not to see it and then to stand up and oppose it.

To my mind it is a very simple case of restoring that illegali ty. If we do not do that, then we'll do that at great expense. Wh en the Supreme Court rules it out and then you turn around and start doing what we want to do with good will, we're kind of convincing everybody that we are not doing this, restoring French to its legal status because of legal pressure, but we are doing it as a matter of good will, it would perhaps convince everybody in this province that we are not doing it under any pressure. This is one thing. Another point of view, Mr.

Chairman, that is basically moral and I think, to my mind, of great importance that this country is a country that is founded by two charte red nations, French and English. To deny French their fundamental right would be denying the history of our heritage and our present reality as a nation. Refusing to recognize that we are a nation of two languages and also denying the cultural richness that the multicultural society in Canada contributing to our province and to our nation would be a great tragedy. What we are in fact doing is fulfilling a constitutional obligation to the French.

I think this is a unique Manitoba-made solution to correct the situation. lt is rather amusing, Sir, that there are certain people amongst us who do not or refuse to face facts. Manitoba, like Canada, is a multicultural society . To impose a language on others is to deny them or to deny the nation, for that matt er, the cultural richness that these ethnic minorities will bring to the nation and to the province. Ethnic minorities, especially , are very fearful that when you can turn around and deny the French-speaking people their fundamental right, what kind of justice can you expect for the minority here?

Therefore, in entrenching the French language, we see great hope and we see that there i3 a future for the ethnic minorities in this count ry. People talk about the price, the great price attached to it. I don't see that. There is always price to pay for certain values, for certain ideals, for certain goals. Democracy thrives on those goals and values and if you want to run a country in a cheap way - and I'm using the word "cheap" for a very definite purpose - you have to sacrifice democracy and build a different kind of political system here.

Make a military rule, it will make everything easier for you, and therefore I think you would pay a price. 1141 When you pour millions and millions of dollars to support NATO, nobody raises a human cry on that, although that is token support. Nobody is going to attack Canada. When you pour millions of dollars in permitting experiments of missiles in Alberta, none of these rednecks raise their voice. But when you want to correct an illegali ty, whether you want to contribute to the cultural richness of a province and of a nation, bigotry raises its head.

They want to live in a fool's paradise, I would say, closing their eyes to the reality of the situation, to the fact that ethnic minorities generally and particularly in this case, French minority, need assurance that they are wanted, that they are not second-class citizens, that they have a right as much as anybody else. On the one hand, we shed crocodile tears when those rights are denied to Anglophones in Quebec. We talk about all kinds of funny things, I don't want to repeat them.

On the other hand, when it comes down to our own province, when we are trying to correct a situation that has continued for decades, all kinds of practical reasons are raised, pragmatic reasons are raised. Mr. Chairman, all this pragmatism and practicality is coming out of our narrow-mindedness. We are lacking vision, we are lacking commitment. We are not in fact supporting those vah.;as and goals, as I said before, on which democracy thrives. Well, there are ways or, perhaps, practical solutions that our friend in Germany tried - get rid of all the minorities.

One-quarter of the French-speaking public in Canada or others - get rid of them, and then, of course, there'll be no questions asked. But until those facts are there, we have to live with them. We might pay lip service, I don't care, but they are facts of live, particular facts of life, historical realities, constitutional facts that we need to accept and entrench. One of my friends said, why constitutional amendment? Why not leave it to the Legislature? People have not read political history right. If left to the whims and fancies of political parties, they play around with minority rights.

Nowhere in the history of the world, minority rights have been left to the sweet whims of political change and political process. The history, if my friends who are opposed to me read with care, well, tell them that the entrenched majority always goes against it, has gone against it, is being done here. I'm amused by some of my friends who support political conservatism. Wh en their leader supports the principle of bilingualism in Canada and in Manitoba, I'm sure they must be embarrassed by Mr. Mulroney's support to the principle of French language entrenchment here.

Is it a rebellion going on here against the leadership? To my friends, who subscribe to the political philosophy of the NDP, it's really a chuckle, I just don't understand. I thought the philosophy of democratic socialism was based on benign, enlightened, liberal principles of politics. The founding fathers of the New Democratic Party did make it a point to see that this be a party of minority groups wherever in this count ry. lt really amuses me to see some of those who say they suscribe to that political philosophy and then stand up and oppose for some cheap political gains.

They do not see the tomorrow, they see only the today, and they stand up and oppose those great liberal principles with the founding fathers of the New Demcratic Party , entrench and made the bases of this political party.

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 I do not say, and I appeal through you to Manitobans and to the people who live in this great province to shed fear. In doing this, in entrenching this, we are in fact providing leadership to the whole country, to our sister province, Ontario. What we do today , other provinces will follow later. Wh at will happen today here is being watched with great care in Quebec. We will not have to raise up our voice later on. If we do provide rights to French-speaking people here, the Anglophones will get the same right in Quebec. They are watching us.

So, I would appeal to the people, all the people of Manitoba, Mr. Chairman, that they should see beyond their nose, and I'm sure they would. it is not in our power to change the course of histor y. I see the writing on the wall, so instead of leaving it to the political change and political process, I would suggest that let this fact be entrenched and let us make political history for Canada and for the generations, and by doing this, let us confirm our belief in the good great principles of democracy and multiculturalism. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chandra. Questions for Mr.

Chandra from members of the committee? Mr. Ashton. MR. S. ASHTON: Yes, I was wondering if you could tell me what the situation in India is, in terms of languages, how many . . . MR. CHANDRA: Thank you, sir, I think that's a very interesting question . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. A. KOV NATS: A very intelligent question, but certainly out of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH AIR MAN: Thank you, Mr. Kovnats, you anticipated the Chair's ruling. The question was not touched upon in the brief and is therefore out of order. Questions for clarification of the material in the brief only please.

These are the rules the Chair has followed throughout. MR. S. ASHTON: My apologies, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you have a further question for clarification? MR. S. ASHTON: Since the speaker was speaking on behalf of Canadians of Origins from India, I had wondered what his perspective, coming from his own national background, was. However, that's not for me to ask that question. MR. CHAIRMAN: If you wish to wonder about that, you may ask him after the hearing is concluded. Further questions for clarification of the contents of the brief?

I know you would have liked to answer that question, but it would not be appropriate. MR. CHANDRA: There is time, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Seeing no further questions, Mr. Chandra, thank you very much for your presentation here this evening. MR. CHANDRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe on the last call Mr. Forest was also standing. Mr. Georges Forest, please. Mr. Forest, you have appeared before the committee once before. Do you appear again as a private citizen? MR. G. FOREST: I must say, Mr. Chairman, that I am making history. Tonight I appear on behalf of someone else. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much. MR. G. FOREST: I have for so many years been my own committee and my own group, but tonight I am proud to say that I have been asked by M. Joseph Bruce, le president de !'Union nationals metis Saint­ Joseph du Manitoba, who is here to speak on his behalf for !'Union nationals metis. I would like to draw your attention, Madame, Messieurs, to the fact that Louis Riel is here with us this evening. Would you stand please Louis. This is Louis Riel IV. Louis Riel IV, l'arriere-neveu je crois que je dois dire, de Louis Riel.

Je prends la parole, M. le president, ce soir et tout particulierement comme etant le dernier a parler dans ces audiences publiques pour faire le point. Le point particulier sur ce fait qu'en 18 69, Louis Riel, representant de fa<;:on officiellement son gouvernement provisoire, representant tous les groupes de la vallee de la Riviere Rouge, avait demande au gouvernement canadien, entre autres, dans la liste des droits que l'anglais et le fran<;:ais soient les langues officielles du Manitoba.

Avec tous les annees qui ont suivies, nous avons toute une histoire a raconter et malheureusement trop peu de gens la connaisse. La fin de cette histoire est qu'aujourd'hui il y a un effort serieux qui est fait pour essayer de corriger tout le dommage qui a ete fait durant les 90 dernieres annees. J'entendais plus tot cette apres-midi quelqu'un dire que les Canadians francais n'avaient pas souffert et on a semble faire allusion au fait que l'embonpoint de M. Desjardins, de M. Robert et de moi-meme etait une indication que nous n'avions pas souffert. Au contraire, M. le president.

Nous avons certainement su survivre. Mais comme l'a dit si eloquemment M. Taib, le professeur Taib Soufi, il y a quelques instants, ce fut cruel ce penible effort de la legislature du Manitoba de 1890 de pratiqu er, comme certains l'ont dit, un certain genocide culture! sur le peuple canadien-francais ou parler en francais du Manitoba. En particulier, le groupe metis que je represents ici ce soir, a

titre moi-meme de vice-president de !'Union nationals metis et au nom de notre president Joseph Bruce, ce peuple metis dont le livre que vous avez en main, "Hold High Your Heads", est le volume particulier de l'histoire de la nation metis en francais, que nous avons presente a M. Lecuyer, ea pour !'occasion c'est un cadeau que !'Union nationals du metis vous fait. M. le president, je vous encourage fortement le plus tot possible a lire cette histoire qui vous fera comprendre le role qu'a joue la nation metis dans la fondation de cette province et les temps difficiles qu'ils ont vecus meme lorsqu'il s'agissait le traite avec les 1142

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 leurs de langue franc;:aise. Un episode particul ier, vous la trouverez dans le texte anglais "Hold High Your Heads" dans !'introduction qu'avait fait l' auteur Antoine Lussier. M. le president, il fait allusion a la difficulte qu'existait 1916 lorsque siegeant comme representant de la circonscription de Saint-Boniface, le depute Joseph P. Dumas avait lui-meme tente un proces devant les tribunaux du Manitoba et cela en franc;:ais.

Fort de sa responsabilite de mener la destinee du peuple, de ce petit peuple de 30 000 ames, I' Association d'education des Canadiens franc;:ais du Manitoba, fondee au printemps de 1916, s'efforc;:ait de a etre le seul parte-parole. Malheureusement, la communication n'etait pas etablie assez bien entre le peuple metis et !'Association de fac;:on ac e qu'il s'est fait une division qui a, je crois, dure jusqu'a nos jours. M. Dumas et le peuple metis croyaient que c'etait par les tribunaux et seulement par le tribunal qu'on pourrait retablir la justice d'un droit qui nous avait ete si cruellement enleve en 1890.

Alors !' Association d'ed ucation avait dit a tout le monde: N'appu yez pas Dumas, son avocat Dubuc et tous ceux qui se melent de cette affaire; ils n'ont aucun droit de nous representer. Je vais vous lire afin de consacrer au proces-verbal de votre comite le proces-verbal de la reunion du 16 juillet 1916. "Une assemblee d'un groupe de Metis de Saint-Vital et des environs pour discuter et etudier les questions touchant les interets metis.

"Etaient presents: Joseph Riel, Alexandre Riel, Colin McDougall, Duncan McDougall, Martin Neault, Camille Teillet, Alexandre Neault, Jean-Marie Poitras, Patrice Beauchemin, William Beauchemin, Simon Marchand et Roger Goulet. "M. Joseph Riel est nomme president et M. Patrice Beauchemin est nomme secretaire de l'assemblee. "M. le president invite M. Camille Teillet a faire !'e xpose de la question principale qui a motive cette reunion. "En consequence, M.

Teillet dit comme suit: '"L e 27 fevrier dernier eut lieu a Saint-Boniface une assemblee des citoyens de langue franc;:aise de la province pour protester contre la persecution dont nous etions l'objet de la part du gouvernement Norris. Cette assemblee fut magnifique d'ordre et d'enthousiasme; I' union semblait assuree entre les diverses sections de la population franc;:aise; les partis politiques etaient abolis; "TOUT POUR NOT RE LANGUE", tel etait le mot d'o rdre. Un comite fut forme. 11 prit le

titre de "ASSOCIA TION D' EDUCA TION". Quelques-uns des n6tres, 2 ou 3 je crois sur 50, furent nommes dans ce comite; c'etait peu. Peut-etre pouvions nous esperer une plus grande representation, peut-etre, mais les Metis habitues a ces sortes d' injustices, des injustes oublis ne protesterent pas. 11 acc.epterent le fait. Maintenir !'union etait necessaire pour reussir et nous etions prets a bien des sacrifices d'amour-propre pour sauver notre langue. Tout alia pour le mieux pendant quelque temps.

Depuis plusieurs semaines, deux faits tres graves vinrent passionner I' opinion publique et jeter entre les Canadiens franc;:ais et les Metis franc;:ais un malaise qui va en s' accentuant et qui menace de briser d'une fac;:on irreparable I' union indispensable au succes. Ces faits sont la poursuite Dumas-Baribault et I' attitude de !'Association. Ces faits sont de notoriete publique et nous en avons tous entendu parl er. Aussi nous n' allons donner qu'une analyse rapide et succinate en nous plac;:ant au point de vue metis. '"L a poursuite prise par M.

Joseph Dumas, depute de Saint-Boniface, a pour but de faire respecter le traite fait entre le gouvernement provisoire de la Riviere Rouge en 1870 et le gouvernement canadien, traite sanctionne par le gouvernement imperial. Ce traite rend obligatoire !'impression des documents dans ies deux iangues dans les cours de justice. C'est-a-dire que le proces Dumas-Baribault a pour but de nous faire rendre l'officialite de la langue franc;:aise et le resultat atteint il serait difficile de ne pas faire enseigner dans les ecoies une langue officielle.

L'attitude du depute de Saint­ Boniface n'eut pas l'heure de plaire a !'Association d'Ed ucation, qui par l'entremise de son president, I'Honorable Juge Prendergast declara dans un

article qui fit le tour de la Presse, qu'elle condamnait energiquement la poursuite Dumas, qu'elie etait decidee a ne pas se prevaloir des traites et a ne pas demander !'intervention federale, qu'elle abandonnait la lutte pour la langue et qu'elle confinait son travail a la maison d'ecole. Le president condamna Dumas en disant que celui-ci n'avait pas d'autorisation de !'Association pour mener une telle poursuite, que !'Association representait les 30 000 habitants de langue franc;:aise du Manitoba et qu'une douzaine de Canadiens franc;:ais ne pouvaient pas a voir aucune autorite.

L' Assc.ciation seule devait agir. "'M aintenant, quelle doit etre la position que doit prendre la nation metisse dans la circonstance? Devons-nous adherer entierement a I' Association d'Ed ucation ou devons-nous ap prouver la poursuite Dumas? Je crois que !'hesitation pour un coeur vraiment metis n'est pas permise. Nous ne pouvons pas a notre tour approuver !'Association d'Edu cation et nous ne pouvons pas desappr ouver la poursuite Dumas.

La raison de cette attitude est que le depute de Saint­ Boniface, un metis, n'a fait que demander au gouvernement de faire honneur a la parole donnee aux Metis en 1870. 11 fait cette demande au gouvernement de cette province, dans quelques jours il ia demandera au gouvernement federal et il le demandera, esperons­ le, jusqu'au gouvernement imperial a Londres. Nous ne pouvons approuver I' Association d'Edu cation pour deux raisons. Premierement, parce qu'elle n'avait pas le droit de condamner un homme sans connaitre ses moyens. Elle aurait pu se contenter de le surveiller et de le laisser agir .

Quel tort pouvait-il faire? Deuxiemement, les Metis ne pouvaient renoncer a !utter pour la langue. Libre aux Canadiens franc;:ais d'abandonner le legs de Montcalm, ainsi que les libertes gagnees par la loyaute et l'heroisme de leurs peres en 1775 et 1812, et par leurs martyrs de 1837. lis sont maitres de leur attitude et nous n'avons rien a y voir. Mais savent-ils ce que c'est de nous demander, a nous Metis, de cesser de !utter pour notre langue?

C'est de d•cmander a la nation metis d'oublier et de declarer comme nul ce que leur resistance calme et digne de 1869-70 a obtenu; c'est lui demander d'oublier les persecutions dont elle a ete l'objet; c'est de demander aux Riel d'oublier l'echafaud de Regina que les annees ecoulees n'ont fait que grandir et dont les annees a venir feront un autel; comme le bucher de Rouen d'ou s'est envolee l'ame de Jeanne d'Arc, Jeanne d'Arc qui est aujourd'hui le palladium de la France dans sa lutte gigantesque contre le despotisme touton; c'est de 1143

Tuesday, 4 October , 1983 demander a Lepine d' oublier !' exile et les cauchemars qui lui faisait voir le gibet et lui demander d'o ublier les chaines qui l'ont fait gemir longtemp s dans les sombres prisons; c'e st de demander aux Goulet d'oublier la vision qui leur montre une ligne de sang qui traverse la Riviere Rouge; c'est demander a Andre Neault d'o ublier les poursuites acharnees de malfaiteurs alteres de sang, c'est lui demander de ne pas regarder ses mains et ses pieds jadis charges de fer, c'est lui demander de ne pas mettre sa main sur sa tete pour ne pas penser a la profonde cicatrice qu'ont laissee les baionnettes des soldats de Wolseley; c'est de demander aux Lagimodiere, aux Harrison, aux Beauchemin, aux Delorme, aux Carriere, aux Champagne, aux Proulx, aux Lariviere, tourond, Vermette et tant d' autres d' oublier ce qu'ils ont souffert de persecussions et de miseres; c'est en un mot demander a la nation metisse d' oublier une des plus belles pages de son histoire en renonc;:ant de suivre ses traditions.

Sans doute quand ils se sont prononces, ils n'ont pas songe a toutes ces choses, autrement ils auraient pris une autre attitude. J'en suis convainc u.'" Je m' arrete, M. le president, pour souligner que ce M. Camille Teillet, qui fut le secretaire de cette assemblee historique, etait le pere de Roger Teillet, depute de Saint-Boniface a la Chambre des Communes, et le grand-pere de Leo Teillet qui je crois vous a present!'! un memoir il y a quelques jours. M. Camille Teillet etait marie a Sarah Riel, une descendante de Louis Riel, le meunier de la Seine.

"'Q ue devons-nous faire? (continu le memoire) Prendre une attitude sur la question Dum as; et je crois que la seule que nous puissions prendre c'est d'approuver le principe, !'i dee que revendique ce que la nation metisse a gagne. Pour ce qui est de la responsabilite, nous la laissons toute entiere a M. Dumas. Ne connaissant pas ses moyens, nous demeurons convaincus qu'il saura porter haut et ferme le nom metis et qu'il rejettera loin de lui toute combinaison qui serait de nature a rabaisser un homme. Ce qui dans les circonstances rejaillirait sur la nation a laquelle il appartient.

Pour le moment, nous n'a vons qu'a le feliciter de son idee en lui souhaitant bon courage, convaincus que nous sommes qu'il ira jusqu'au bout. Cette attitude nous force a nous tenir a l'e cart de I' Association d' Education. No us le regrettons profondement mais nous devons nous rendre cette justice que nous ne l'a vons pas voulu. Un peu plus de jugement et de discretion et, disons-le, un peu plus de connaissance de l' histoire et des faits lui auraient empeche de commettre ces erreurs vis-a-vis nous.

Nous nous tiendrons sur la reserve; mais qu'il soit bien connu que nous n' avons au coeur aucun sentiment de haine ou de jalousie. Nous voulons garder et maintenir la nation metisse dans son entite, fidele a ses traditions et a son passe. Nous sommes resolus a I utter de toutes nos forces pour conserver notre race distncte. Nous voulons qu'elle soit toujours metisse-canadienne­ franc;:aise. Que ceux qui revent d' assimilation en fasse leur deuil; leur reve ne se realisera pas. Nous resterons ce qu'ont ete nos peres et nous enseignerons a nos enfants a suivre leurs traces.

Dans les graves circonstances que nous traversons, il est important pour la nation metisse d'avoir une organisation nationale. Pour cela, formons d'abord un comite; nommons-le Comite national metis; que ce comite nomme un sous­ comite, etc., etc. "' Et la, M. le president, le restant du proces-verbal passe a la formulation d'une resolution qui fut transmise a M. Dumas. Et les pages d'histoire que je n'ai pas avec moi ce soir nous racontent que M.

Dumas a repondu dans une lettre ecrite de sa plume, en ses termes: "Je m' attendais pas de moins d'un coeur metis." M. le president, une autre experience que je dois vous racont er, et celle-ci est tout a fait courante. Certains d'entre vous avez entendu dire !' expression parlant du petit reste de 3 pour cent ou 8 pour cent de Canadiens franc;:ais, que c' etait une espece endangee. Lorsqu'on parle de toute espece naturelle endangee, on prend les mesures necessaires pour sa protection. Je vous donnerais l'exemple de I' ours polaire qui est, nous le savons, une espece endangee. Qu'est­ ce qu'on fait?

Premierement, on interdit la chasse. Mais pour ce peuple franc;:ais au Manitoba, c'e st la chasse a l'homme et c;:a ne prend pas de permis. C'est a tout chacun dans le bureau, sur la rue ou ailleurs de lancer des betises, de faire toutes sortes de discriminations pour des droits enchasses dans la Constitution qui ne sont pas respectes. Sur cela, M. le president, c'e st aussi d' actualite. De nos jours et de la part de quelqu'un qui est present ici ce soir dans !'audience parce qu'il est Metis, parce qu'il est de langue franc;:aise, il subit de la part de ses superieurs, toutes sortes d' injustices sociales.

Suffisamment que si c'et ait moi, il y a longtemps, et c;:a, c;:a se passe de plus en plus rapidement ces temps­ ci a cause du debat qui fait le tour des journaux, le tour de la presse. M. le president, si dans le projet de loi que vous propose etablir ou passe devant la Chambre du Manitoba, il n'y a pas l'explicite declaration que la langue franc;:aise et la langue anglaise sont officielles au Manitoba - point - c'est injustice va contin uer. Je fais allusion, M. le president, a l'am endement qui nous a tombe sur la tete le 6 septembre dernier.

Vous allez remarquer qu'ils sont peu nombreux les gens qui ont presente des memoires devant vous, qui ont fait, qui ont base leurs arguments sur les amendements croyant que ce n'et ait pas fini, qu'il ye n avait d' autres a venir, ou que ceux-la peut-etre n' etaient pas tellement cl airs. Permettez-moi de m' attarder quelques instants la­ dessus. 11 y avait d' abord la resolution puis l' amendement. Je faisais, il y a quelques instants, allusion aux fait que l'am endement qui se nomme 23.1, qui restreint la declaration des deux langues officielles telle que I' on trouve dans la

section 23 ou les sections 23.2 a 23.9 inclusivement, pour moi est hors d' ordre. Ce n'e taii pas entendu dans !' entente du 17 mai, et dans ce a quoi je me suis associe en tant qu' individu, le :?4 mai dernier a Saint-Boniface. Le restant, et plus particulierement pour ce qu'il en vaut, je trouve un peu genre omnibus de vouloir introduire une nouvelle section, celle qu'on appelle 23.9.

Dans ma presentation personnelle plus tot, et je crois que c'etait vers le 8 du mois de septembre, j'avais lu in extenso les remarques que faisait le depute Harry Enns par rapport a la position des groupes ethniques au Canada et au Manitoba en particuli er. Je ne realisais pas a ce moment-la que ce que M. Enns disait dans son texte que peut-etre l'an nee prochaine certains groupes ethniques ce presenteraient pour faire 1144

Tuesday, 4 October , 1983 enchasser leur s droits et que l'annee apres et l'annee apres ce serail une suite infinie. Mais non! Ce qui sembler ait avoir ete un echange de sympathies, si pas d'autr e chose, entre les groupes ethniques et la Societe franco-manitobaine, s'avere maintenant une course a fair e enchasser ce billet de credits qu'elle reclame toutes ses societas ethniques en demandant a la SFM d'appuyer l'enchassement de leur propre langue. ea devient une vraie bouillabaisse.

C'est un meli-melo qui je cr ois n'a pas de serieux. ea n'a pas de fondement, ni dans le projet qui est cette resolution, ni dans ce qu'on peut s'attend re a ce que le gouvernement federal puisse accorder. lmaginez-vous s'il fallait enchasser 32 langues dans la Constitution du Manitoba, et cela avec la sanctionnement du gouvernement federal, que deviend rait des autres provinces?

Et plus particulier ement, nous osons croire puisque la province ou la cir conscription de Louis Riel en 1869 etait celle de tout le territoire du Nord-O uest, etait celle qui couvrait ce que sont devenues plus tard les provinces de I' Alberta et de la Saskatchewan en 1905. Et alors vous etes pas sans savoir vous qui etes dans le domaine public que tres tot, je dirais d'ici quelques annees, la Saskatchewan et I' Alberta vont se fair e dire par la Cour supreme du Canada qu'elles doivent respecter le franc;:ais dans leur province distinctive comme etant une langue officielle.

Que peuvent attend re les citoyens de langue franc;:aise et ceux de langue anglaise qui desirent le franc;:ais dans ces provinces si nous ici au Manitoba, avec un droit enchasse tel que celui que constitut la

section 23, que peuvent s'attendre les citoyens de la pr ovince de Saskatchewan et I' Alber ta, si nous, nous avons resolu a ne donner que des miettes. C'est pour quoi, M. le president, s'il vous taut revenir a !'entente des trois partis qui a ete signee ou sur laquelle vous vous etes donnes la main le 17 mai dernier, je suis pret a vivr e avec les services dans les groupes distinctifs de la ou le nombr e suffi, lorsq ue le nombre le demande.

Parce qu'avec la declar ation parapluie, la declar ation primordial qui etablit les deux langues comme etant officielles au Manitoba, j'espe re qu'avant trop longtemps on enseignera le fr anc;:ais comme matiere obligatoire a partir de la premiere annee au Manitoba. Et dans trois ou quat re generations, il y aura des services partout - a Dauphin, a Brandon, et le reste. Vous m'avez deja entendu parler de mon reve et je n'y attardera i pas ce soir.

M. le president, lor squ'on par le qu'il y a beaucoup de travail a faire, et sur c;:a je fais encore al lusion au noble, je dirais meme fameux, la fameuse presentation de le professeur Soufi qui nous a donne un expose qu'on pour rait appele peut-etre un de l'exterieur puisque lui vit encor e quand meme sa culture tout en etant, avec ses enfants, pris dans le rouage de cette culture canadienne qui est en voie de develo ppement. Mais il nous apporte une connaissance comme disait M. Lecuyer d'un homme qui faisait

partie d'une universite l'a ou on enseigne pas mains d'une dizaine de langues. M. le presiden t, c'est dans cette optique qu'il nous faudr ait envisager l'avenir. Base sur les deux langues officielles et avec la part que nous donne toutes les autres langues et toutes autres cultures, la culture canadienne, dans les generations a venir, sera la plus riche au monde. Nous avons, M. le pr esident, des cette apres-midi, et c;:a m'a enormement surpris lorsque j'entendais M.

Hutton, je cr ois le Reverend Hutton, a la page 6 de son memoire faire allusion aux droits de la minorite. 11 dit qu'il y a un nouveau concept qui est presents ici. Je suis d'accor d avec lui. J'int erprete pas le nouveau concept de la meme fac;:on que lui, de toute fac;:on. Moi ce que je trouve c'est ceci. Mes droits de langue au Manitoba ne sont pas des droits de minorites. Ce sont des droits d'egalite. Je m'adonne a vivre dans un groupe minoritaire, mais mes droits sont des droits absolument d'egalite. Si je suis en minorite, ce n'est pas de ma faute. C'est 1890 qui l'a cause.

Parce que si 1890 n'eut eu lieu, cer tainement beaucoup plus de Quebecois se seraient dirig es vers le Manitoba. Que c;:a plaise ou que c;:a ne plaise pas a ceux qui n'auraient pas aime cela. M. le president, il n'est pas trop tard. Vous savez comme moi qu'il y a beaucoup de gens qui viennent du Quebec pour s'etablir au Manitoba. 11 y en a qui se rendent meme au B. C., en Colombie-Br itannique et qui subissent la, comme la radio et la television nous l'ont appris dernier ement, de cruelles discr iminations. 11 est temps d'agir.

Et puisque le Manitoba est le premier des enfants nes a la Confederation canadienne apres cette union de 1867, .. ::est cet enfant premier qui doit montrer l'exemple. L'exemple que vous donnerez au Manitoba, et l'ecriture est la sur le mur pour tout le monde a voir, le fait qu'on apprend cette apres-midi que les trois partis politiques au gouvernement federal vous prient, avec toutes delicatesses j'espere mais avec toutes pressions possibles, de s'il vous plait aller de l'avant, allez-y de l'avant. 11 n'y a per sonne qui en sera le plus pauvre. Tout le monde en sera enrichi.

Faudrait laisser de cote les energumenes. Laissons de cote tous ces gens qui nous app orte nt des solutions qui sembleraient vouloir dire reculons l'horloge, refaisons la Constitution ou faisons une nouvelle constitution a tous les ans pour refleter ce que la voix du peuple, ce que la democratie nous demande. M. le pr esident, les droits de la minorite, j'ai deja traites. L'enchassement des droits, je n'y touche pas; j'ai deja developpe cette chose-la. Le referendum au plebiscite, j'aimerais dire un mot. C'est une bombe. C'est dangereux ce plebiscite-la.

Je suis pres a accepter l'une ou l'a utre des decisions pour ou con tr e le developpement de la resolution par la Legislature du Manitoba ou le processus de M. Bilodeau devant la Cour supreme. Mais les conse illers en campagne electorale vont-ils pouvoir contenir le debat sur la question referendaire? Parce que ceux qui etaient les auteurs de cette plebiscite au Manitoba, autant M. Harms, president de I' Union des municipalites, que ceux qui l'ont pousse a la Legislature ou a la Cite de Winnipeg, voulaient une autre question. Une question qui aurait ete desastreuse a mon avis.

Nous sommes heureus a cette heure de ne pas avoir la question qui aurait ete voulue. M. le president, il y a grand espoir pour l'avenir. Moi­ meme, je suis si longtemps pris par cette question constit utionnelle, que je languis. J'ai hate qu'on passe a d'autres choses. Et deja mon esprit s'envole. 11 y un avenir a notre pays pour ceux qui j'ai entendus encore ce soir, quand M. Trudeau se retirera, ou quand M. Trudeau sera remplace, il y aura cer tainement un successeur a la tete de notr e pays. Et nous lui 1145

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 souhaitons benne chance. Pour se faire independant de tous partis politiques comme je le suis, et c;:a je parle autant au nom de I' Union nationale metis qui est absolument a politique, je me suis procur e personnellement deux billets pour assister a la reception que doit donner le parti conservateur du Manitoba a son chef national Brian Mulroney le 19 octobre ce mois. Messieurs du parti cons ervateur qui etes ici ce soir, j'ai aucune intention pour le moment de joindre votre parti. Mais je vous pose cette question.

Pouvez-vous faire de la place dans votre parti politique pour un Canadien franc;:ais ici au Manitoba. S'il vous faut dire a ces individus, dans vos rangs, sur la scene provinciale comme sur la scene federal, de la trempe de Dan MacKenzie, de soit se retirer ou de grace se moderer ou de rien dire, je crois que vous allez montrer signe que vous voulez faire de la place. M. Mulroney, j'en suis certain, serail des plus heureux. Et c'est c;:a que je vois. Je vois le besoin d'un equili bre dans ces deux grands partis du pays, les deux grands partis politiques.

Que le conservateur perde des votes dans I'Oue st parce qu'il a dit a son extreme droite, vous en avez deja trop dit sur l'antimetrique, vous en avez deja trop dit sur l'antifranc;:ais. S'il vous plait, passez done a un autre parti politique. Ce cette fac;:on, peut-etre que les liberaux gagneront des sieges dans I'O uest. Et ce n'e st rien de mal dans les democraties de souhaiter benne chance a I' opposition. Et je souhaiterais bonne chance au parti conservateur au Quebec parce que vous savez, comme moi, que !'Ontario est sensible au Quebec.

Et les electeurs conservateurs en Ontario seront plus certains de voter Mulroney s'ils savent que le parti adopte une politique nationale forte vibrante pour tout le pays. M. le president, je m'a dresse encore a ce parti con servateur et c'est dommage qu'il ne soit pas ici. Je vois qu'il a encore laisse ses papiers, M. Sterling Lyon. Le soir meme de la reception de M. Mulroney, je vais demander a M. Lyon de me presenter a son chef. Je voudrais aider a ce parti politique de regarder vers l'avenir parce que c'est tres important. 11 y en a d'a utre que moi.

Je voyais dans La Li berte, dans nos journaux dernierement, les remarques de M. Camil Chaput, qui a la reception qu'a tenue la Societe franco­ manitobaine a Sainte-Anne, indiqu aient qu'il y avait un certain malaise. 11 y en a combien d'a utres de gens conservateurs de tous les temps qui se sentent mal ici au Manitoba. Et ce n'est pas naturel. Ce n'e st pas du tout naturel. 11 taut que quelque chose soit faite et si vous m'a cceptez, Messieurs du parti conservateur, de vous aider a tracer cette voie. Je suis la. Merci M. le president. Je vais terminer en disant, vous avez lu devant vous toutes sortes de papiers.

Vous avez vu, et <;a je I' attire a !'attention de mon bon ami Russell, celui qui parle du chien dans la creche. And that item, Mr. Chairman, I'll come back to my other langua ge that I can use fairly well. The dog in the man ger, I was speaking about that on the 8th of Septemb er, and someone was able to find this in the Winnipeg Li brary. lt comes from Aesop's Fables, which are something like 600 years before Christ, and it reads like this, at Page 155 of this one book: "A churlish envious cur was gotten into a manger , and there laid growling and snarling to keep the horses from their provender.

The dog ate none himself, and yet rather ventured to starving his own carcass, then he would suffer anything else to be the better for it." The moral -envy pertains to no other happiness than what it derives from the misery of other people, and will rather eat nothing itself than not starve those that would. The context in which I was saying this is that, unforuna tely, there are some people of the minority ethnic groups who feel that they must, at all cost, bark loud enough to keep the French-Canadians from having the rights that were so unlawfully removed from them in 1890.

That, I think, is a very very good reminder of what was already seen more than 2,000 years ago. M. le president - (Interjection) - yes, oh this. I was wanting to bring this to your attention. What you see behind Monseignor Empson who is now just recently na med as Chai rman of the Ma nitoba Alcohol Foundation, I believe, is le drapeau de I' Union nationale metis. lt is our flag. lt was the flag of Louis Aiel's Provisional Go vernment of 1869, and as you see it is still regarded as our flag today with the ensign and the fleur-de-lis.

I would only hope that once the Province of Manitoba recognizes its official status of a bilingual province that we might again, once more, consider that to be the Manitoba flag. lt is a lot to ask, but I think it is an honest request. it's not going to be the flag debate of the Federal Government, but it is one that would only reflect what the Metis themselves wanted in 18 69, and what this province was created as, respecting the two main cultures, and it certainly doesn't take anything from all those other people who have come to this province to participate in the growing culture and not to impose their language.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has slightly more than expired. Questions for Mr. Forest? Mr. Doern. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I have thr ee or four separate and probably distinct questions. You made a statement, Mr. Forest, about a month ago that Mr. Penner had commi tted treason. I wonder if you could explain that remark. That's pretty strong language . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR. R. DOERN: ... and I'm not here to defend the Attorney-General, but I wonder . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

That statement was not made as part of the presentation today. it's not our purpose to go back to previous presentations or other statements. Questions only for clarification of the brief presented tonight. MR. R. DOERN: Well, I will then reword what I am int erested in, and I want to ask you what you think of the proposed amendments? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Forest. MR. G. FOREST: I was happy, although I wasn't present at Ste. Anne, I wasn't well that evening, I had not planned earlier to be, but on the very day of this very momentous occasion in Ste. Anne I was able to learn what Mr.

Robert was going to say in his presentat ion. 1146

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 Because it was so positive, I then regretted not having psyched myself to go. But on the other hand, I was not well and I had a lecture to give at the Mennonite Brethren School the next morning at 10 o'clock, and therefore I decided not to go. But as a result of Mr. Robert's assertive statement that it is only the agreement of the 17th of May that they will be satisfied with, I feel that the comments that I had made earlier about Mr. Penner or about the amendments to the resolution are now passe. MR. R. DOERN: And therefore you are withdrawing that statement? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

MR. G. FOREST: What is said is said. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. Questions with regard to previous statements were ruled out of order. Mr. Doern, you have done this in the past. Please, when the Chair directs that certain lines of questioning are out of ord 9r, respect the Chair's direction. Do you have a different line of questioning, please? MR. R. OOERN: Mr. Chairman, it has come up many times, and I wonder -there's been many references to Mr.

Forest's experiences and the different fights that he's been involved in -if he could clear up a point, and that is in regard to your legal battles in regard to your parking ticket challenge, can you indicate what the total cost of that procedure was? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order please. Mr. Forest, did you make mention to that case in your brief? MR. G. FOREST: No, in no way. MR. CHAIRMAN: Once again, Mr. Doern, the question then is out of order. I didn't hear the reference in the brief. MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I have a num ber of questions, but perhaps I'll clear them with Mr. Forest later.

They concern various things that he's involved in and interested in, but perhaps weren't covered in the brief. MR. CHAIRMAN: If they don't relate to the brief, I'm sorry, I'd had to rule them all out of order or I would be inconsistent with all the previous guidelin es I have received from the commi ttee. Further questions? Ms. Phillips. MS. M. PHILLIPS: No, I just want to speak on the point of order, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lecuyer. MR. G. LECUYER: I have just have one question, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Forest. Mr.

Forest, I understand and you stated you were speaking here to us tonight on behalf of the Union Nationale Metisse St. Joseph du Manitoba . . .. MR. G. FOREST: Union Nationale Metisse St. Joseph. MR. G. LECUYER: . . . and I was wondering, Mr. Forest, if the comments you were making towards the end of your speech, which had to do with, I think, what one might call advice to the members of the opposition and offers of your support, or efforts that you offered towards them, were also made on behalf of the Union Nationale Metisse. MR. G.

FOREST: I don't think that my president would be at all foreign to the idea, because he is, himself, a very strong Conser vative person. I have not previously cleared with them, because I told you that I was doing it on my own. Frankly, I can discuss that at our next meeting. MR. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, S. Ashton: Mr. Anstett. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr . Forest, just a couple of questions. You spoke tonight with regard to

Section 23. 1, and in your brief I got the impression that you were willing to consider a package similar to one that would be fashioned on the principles of the May 17th agreement in your reference to Mr. Robert and, then in answer to Mr. Doern, expanded on that. Is that a change from an earlier position, or is that an expansion on a position in which you held only a declaratory statement was required? Are you suggesting to the comm ittee that basically the full statement of princip les is now acceptable to you? MR. G.

FOREST: The full statement, which was the entente that was presented to us on the 24th of May at the St. Bon iface College, I adhered to that. I gave my full sup port to that, but I broke ranks immedia tely upon reading the texts of the amendm ents of September 6th, and that is where I made some very strong statements, I agree. But as far as I'm concerned, and this would have to go back to what I have said before and the way I feel about entrenching services, I feel that you'd only entrench services if you want to limit a right.

Therefore, I'm afraid of limiting the right and th erefore I have stated that limiting services to a ghetto area where numbers warrant, in my opinion, is low abhorrent and that again I can identify with the Metis and the Native people, our ancestors. In that context, Mr. Anstett, I feel and I've said it before that I am flying above the need to be within a ghetto area. If the government had only one thing to do, and from my knowledge of the court case as they have been going on since 1979, Mr. Bilodeau's included, the prime importance of your resolution is to establish a time fr: :me for translation.

The idea of entrenching services is secondar y. So along with the time frame, a basic declaration, a reaffirmation of the two official languages, would in my opinion be the minimum that you should do. That in my opinion is something that you should do. MR. A. ANSTETT: Just one short follow-up before I come to the next question. You say a minimum, but you're willing to accept the broader package. 1147

Tuesday, 4 October , 1983 MR. G. FOREST: I'm willing to accept, because based on that declara tion, I'm sure that the door is open for the future. MR. A. ANSTETT: My second question then of the two I wanted to pose, Mr . Forest, rela tes to the declaratory section, and both in your brief and in your answers you have talked about the strength of your commitment to that. Would you have strong exception to a declaratory statement, just to get an understanding of where you're coming from, similar to the one contained in the federal Constitution Act of 19 81? MR. G.

FOREST: No, there you are talking about a limited statement. I would be tending to go towards the declaration for New Brunswick if that is of any assistance to you. But my main concern about the need to reaffirm the two official languages is based primarily on the fact that the 1890 law itself said "an act declaring that English is the official language of Manitoba." We have lived for 90 years with that assertion and in order to reinstate the status of the French langu age, a like declaration is necessary encompassing both, not to limit them to

Section 23. 1890 did not state

an act to make English the official language insofar as

Section 23 is concerned; it was making it the language of the province ... MR. A. ANSTETT: Just one very quick supp lementa ry to that, Mr. Chairman. What do you see is the difference between the federal declaration statement and the New Brunswick? You appeared to make a distinction between them, and 1 don't have the act in front of me, so I'm not clear myself, but I didn't think th ere was a substantive difference, do you see one? MR. G. FOREST: The federal declaration statement in

Section 81 I think is derived from The Official Languages Act, which was so constructed to be able to apply to those provinces where French is not an official langua ge. lt was no t in tended per se for Manitoba, nor for Quebec, Ontario or New Brunswick, but for provinces like B.C., for Newfoundland. That is where I think the question of num bers warrant comes in and things like that. That's not the aspect that you'r e thinking of? MR. A. ANSTETT: Perhaps we can discuss that some other time. MR. G. FOREST: Separately. MR. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Ms. Phillips. MS. M.

PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Forest, you said mostly in answers to the questions from my colleagues but also in your brief, I believe, your opinion of the .amendments. I'm wondering what the opinion is of the group that you are representing tonight on the proposed amendments to the agreement. MR. G. FOREST: Our position I think can be said very eloquently in those very words that Louis Riel himself uttered in 1874, at the time of a political election, at the time when he was elected as a member in Ottawa, "All we want is the application of

Section 23, nothing more, but equal ly, nothing less." MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. MR. CHAIRMAN, A. Anstett: Further questions for Mr. Forest? Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, through you to Mr. Forest. Mr. Forest, you made mention in your address to us that you took strong exception to the position the SFM was taking after the amendments that were placed before this comm ittee on the 6th of Septem ber, was that correct? MR. G. FOREST: I did indicate that, Mr. Chairman, through you to Mr.-it is possibly and I was surprised myself in reading the min utes of Mr.

Teillet of the 16th of Ju ly, 19 16: "But it is my nature to make a quick judgment." And at the time of the presentation of the 6th of Septem ber, I felt that someth ing was going wrong because there had evidently not been a new meeting between the three parties and, for this resolution to be tabled, somehow this drew me to say quick ly, things aren't right. That's why my reaction was so sudden.

Frankly, of course, this is now water under the bridges over the Red River, but because of the battle that we are in I have already suggested several times to some of the people involved with the SFM, they should have constituted sort of a war commit tee meeting at 6:30 every morning in order to prepare what was going on and to decide, because this is the battle of the century for the rights of the French Canadian. I think anybody here would respect them for doing that.

That is the nature of the beast that I would have directed and certainly would have been kept on top of it and being able to react more qu ickly. 1 think what's happening now with the resolutions of the MARL on Friday is because of the SFM not having spoken fast enough. They're allowing everybody else to try and get their foot in the door before it's closed again. MR. H. GRAHAM: In your mind, Mr. Forest, will the proposed amendments and the subsequent proposal that we received here just in the last few days seriously undermine the position of the French commun ity in Manitoba? MR. G.

FOREST: Now we're talking on the amendments as against the resolution itself? MR. H. GRAHAM: That's right. MR. G. FOREST: I am prepared to wager that if the amendments are brought in and even if they are passed with the majority that the government holds the Federal Government should not approve it; therefore, it's time wasted. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Forest, when you made your initial break, should I say, or made your position kno wn 1148

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 after the amendments were placed and the Franco­ Manitoban Society explained their position, was that done on a matter of principle or was it a snap judgment that you were making? MR. G. FOREST: Snap, but with principle. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Forest, in his remarks made several mentions of members of the Con servative Party and his desire to sit down and discuss matters with members of the Cons ervative Party. I know Mr. Forest, being a man of principle, and I think it would be an excellent idea to sit down with members of the Conservative Party, who are also men of principle.

I thank him for the invitation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Graham. Further questions from honourable members for Mr. Forest? Seeing none, Mr. Forest, thank you very much and the association for your presentation here this evening. MR. G. FOREST: Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: Unless there is anyone else in the gallery whose name was not on the list who wishes to make a presentation, last call. MR. B. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, my name is Barry Turnbull. I wasn't going to speak but, as many of you have seen, I'v e attended quite a few of the hearings.

I am amazed that no one has touched on the things that are deep in my heart that I got involved in some two years ago, when the issue came up of putting the French language into our school. Now, I represented a group that opposed this situation and im mediately we were labelled as bi gots and radicals. We found this very hard to believe because it was no t only coming from people within the community that were supporting the bilingual process, but it was coming from tru stees on school boards, principals, su perintendents of schools, secretary­ treasurers.

This was really disheartening because we were fighting something that was foreign to us. We were very ignorant of the situation, but we weren't fighting it for the sake of French Immersion coming into the school. In our particular school, we had a situation of English; we had a situation of Ukrainian bilingualism, if that's the correct word; and we also had a program of a special education program for disabili ty learning children. The proposal that was put forward to us was that they proposed to put 14 classrooms of French Im mersion into our school and take one-half of the school.

That was the issue that we opposed. As we got deeper into it, we found that the proposals were: No. 1, to remove the Special Education children because, after all, who were they? They weren't really people; we would just cart them off to another school somepla ce. After all, what do they know? They don't care. The second step was to remove the Ukrainian Imme rsion Program and park that off in another school to make room for the uprising French Immersion courses.

I'm happy to say that after some deg ree of negotiations with the school tru stees and the school 1149 board, we were able to limit that particular program to seven classrooms in our school. I'm not happy to say that it was limited, because I feel that the program will grow. But I'm happy that the fact is that we were able to keep, in particul ar, the Special Education Program, which is not only so vital to the children that it educates from the disability learning stage, but also from the fact that it also helps to educate the children on sounder footing that work with these children at the Grades 5 and 6 level.

Now, I have listened at these sessions to Mr. Forest, and I have received history lesson after history lesson from he and other members who are supporting this program. I am thankful for that effort because I'v e learned a lot; however, I still feel this is all dealing with what's in the past. Presently, the way the French language is being taught in the school, this to me is the key issue. I feel it is being taught poor ly. At the present basis of Immersion, we are teaching separation and segregation . This also breeds bigo try, and we are teaching it right to our children, and why?

Because we are separating our children, we are dividing them into groups, we are making special cliches. We are saying to the children, you are different. Already I've heard JC'Oblems, just recently , of what's happening in St. Bonif ace in the high school - I forget the name of it, I think it's Belliveau -but I already heard that the teenage children are at war with one another . Why? Because we adults, politicians, school tru stees, we have made them different.

We have set up barriers of communic ation, and that is the most important thing, is the fact that we have set up the barriers, the walls, the children cannot commun icate to one another any more. I question the Liberal and the NDP financing of a minority group within a minorit y, and I call the SFM a min ority within the French communit y. Mr. McDonald's speech of yesterday, or was it two days ago, of where he was questioned for financing, gave cause to believe that there was some mistrust in his credibility, that he was in fact another federal-provincial NDP shill.

I say that because he is not honest; he is afraid to bring forth the facts. The busing of the people to Ste. Anne was another example of playing poker with your own mon ey. Twenty chartered buses bussed 2,000 people to Ste. Anne, and I think that's wonderfu l. You give me 20 chartered buses and I'll fill this whole building of Anglophones that do not support you. That isn't necessarily the way it should be. I am in favour of education. I am in favour of children learning the French language. I don't think it has to be done with entrenchment; I think it can be done with evolution.

Put it properly into the schools, where it can be gained, and total bilingualism is not necessarily the answer. There is a program that seems to be shunned called a French Core Program. The facts that have been presented to the school boards state clearly that the program does work with a great deal of success. lt does not make a person bilingual, but it does give the person a firm foundation of becoming bilingual. The latest reports I read was that three months in a total immersion situation will produce a bilingual person. Now, if there is anybody that has other facts to that, I would be glad to hear them.

Tuesday, 4 Octob er, 1983 We talked about bigotry and prejudice in our briefs. I've heard them time after time, and I'm sick of hearing them. Anybody who is opposed is a bigot, is a racist, and this predominantly is brought on by anybody who basically supports the French entrenchment. We talk about organizations and unions that support the SFM. These, gentlemen, I say to you, are individuals. They are not the masses. I sat here and my wife held me down two nights ago when the union that I am a member of, the president stood here, without justification, and supp orted the amendments as put forward by the NDP.

That union president has since been taken to task and he'll account for it tomo rrow night at a meeting. Because it was not only my doing, but it was members of the employees' union that got very demanding on how one individual could stand up here and make statements for 1,000 people without consulting them, without consulting his executive, without consulting his shop stewards. Let me tell you there is turmoil within our union because of it. lt is not that the people don't support it, it's the point that they were not given the right to choose. They were told that they support it.

As long as this kind of kangaroo court is going to continue, you're going to have turmoil, you'r e going to have unrest, and you may end up even with civil war. Mr. Forest may go down as another Louis Aiel. They may hang him, but unfortuna tely it won't be a legal hanging, it will be a lynching. Those are strong words and I realize that maybe they're out of context, because I believe that Mr. Forest is doing what he feels is right for his people. But unfortunately Mr. Forest speaks for a very small majority of his people, because I, like others, have very many strong friends who are of French ancest ry.

They have told me that they do not support the entrenchment of bilingual rights. They do not feel that they need it; they do feel intimida ted. 1 have friends of Anglophone origin that live in lie des Chenes. They thought this was a great idea to put their child in French Immersion. Well, they didn't choose French Immersion, they chose the Francais Program. That child went through Grades 1 to 6. The reports all came home from her school saying, "Beautiful, the child's doing wonderful, just great," and the child can't speak French. But come Grade 7, she's no longer a good student. She's a handling problem. Why?

All of a sudden, she's a handling problem. Gr ades 1 to 6, she had beautiful marks, partici pated in the French Program, did well. Now, all of a sudden, she's a French handling problem. Her teacher has given up on her, he'll teach her, but he won't stay with her. So therefore we have a child that has spent six years in a program and has now been taken out of the program, put into the Anglophone program and is now doing well in English. However, the travesty of the justice is that child has lost six years of education and may eventually lose her right to become bilingual. This is a crime.

Gentlemen, the way we're going, entrenchment I don't think is the real case. I think if we let things go on a normal course of events, put the education into the school where all childr en can be taught, the entrenchment will not be a question, it'll become a fact. You won't have to say that English is the only language because many of our children, probably not in your time or mine, will become bilingual. It'll be an accepted rule, not a fact of one that has to be entrenched. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Turnbull. Questions for Mr. Turnbull from members of the commit tee? Mr. Doern. MR. R.

DOERN: Two questions: Mr. Turnbull, you talked about barriers of commun ication and you talked about a concern for elitism, are you saying that your concern is the fact that in Immersion programs or in bilingual programs that the separation element and the fact that one group will be bilingual and the great majority of people will not will produce very negative results? MR. B. TURNBULL: Very definitely, I have fact -it all started I believe with William Osier School.

There are many other people who can give you facts, too, that were in it much earlier than I whereby the school was suffering under -lack of enrolment. MR. R. DOERN: Declining enrolment. MR. B. TURNBULL: Declining enrolment, and that school was chosen for a bilingual setting, an Immersion setting. Keeping with the rules of the school board, etc., children were bussed in from other areas of Winni peg that wanted to have this teaching. I have letters from people in the area that I could produce, if warranted.

One I was asked not to, but I don't think that's a problem today because I received this letter two years ago and this was from a very prominent doctor. He openly states that he tried very diligently to live with the situation as many parents were pulling their children out of the school because they didn't want it, or for whatever reasons. He was one who stuck with the program. When the principal was removed from the school for whatever reason and a Francophone was put in his place, they found the road of equal rights to both segments of the program eroded immens ely.

The next thing that came in were the milieus, and we must have this area, and the children must be segregated, and we don't want the English chil dren to participate with the French Im mersion childr en because tha t detracts from learning the language. I have other facts on a school in Fort Ga rry where the children are definitely separated. There is a French end of the school and there is an English end of the school. The children start at different starting times.

They have recess periods at different times, lunch hours at different times, a matter of 15 min utes either way just to avoid conflict with the children. The reason I know that is because I have a personal friend who is in that area who has a boy now in Grade 5 and her youn gest was starting kindergarten last year. That child would now be in Grade 1. She did enrol! her child in the program because she felt that this was the thing to do becaus e of the federal commit ment to bilingualism, that jobs depended on it. You know, you can see it through the Armed Forces, the Civil Service, the RCMP, you name it.

So goes French, so goes your promotions. I have the latest facts that -how can I say this? People of scientific nature are being hired and replacing 1150

Tuesday, 4 October , 1983 doctorates and are being trained on the job to become doctors of philosophy or whatever you want to call it. I don't know the correct words for it. These are all little things that irritate. People are afraid; they are fearful; they're afraid of the unknown. They're afraid of what can happen to their children. You ask the average person why they are putting their children in the bilingual program. They don't tell you that the child is there because they think it's a great education experience, which the answer should be. They tell you that my child will not be able to get a federal job.

Now, isn't that a travesty, that the only jobs available to the population of Canada are government jobs? But that's what the public fear. I'v e asked that question because it was put to me by a citizen of St. Boniface. I couldn't quite believe it because that's the first time I heard it. I made it a point to go out and ask people who I knew, friends of mine, who were in the French Im mersion Program, why they enrolled their child in French Immersion.

That was not all the time the answer, but quite a few times that was the answer I received, "Their child will not be able to get a government job." - (lnterjection)- l'd like to go on if I may, because the more I talk about this, the more I get wound up, I remember things. We talk about the funding, and I heard Mr. Ashton say something to the effect of how much money has been allotted by the Provincial Government?

Maybe it's to a minimum amount, considering the fact of what has to be done, or what has potentially been agreed upon, but the fact still remains is that the people, the Anglophone people, who happen to be the majority, are fearful because of the reported - and these are facts, they are written in Hansard. I have a copy of one, that in 1981, I believe the various ethnic communi ties of the St. Bon iface proper area were given to the tune of $600,000 financing from the Federal Government - $600,000 and I think about the unemplo yment of Canada.

I think about the Medicare programs in Canada and countless other things, and I say to myself, couldn't this money have been used to greater extent? Couldn't we have bene fited the starving people of our nation, the un em ployed? Wha t is it, something like 800,000 unemp loyed in Canada? - (I nterjection) - Now, you see I hear the little catcalling in the background of the pro-bigot group in the back that don't appreciate facts and figures coming out. They sit here and catcalL I remember a man here yesterday who was ejected from this meeting for this very same thing, because he spoke his mind.

I don't say he was justified in what he did, but he was thrown out of the meeting because he spoke his mind. But if you are a French supp orter, and you come to this meeting, you can say all the things you want, and the present government stands there and agrees with it. MR. R. DOERN: My final question, Mr.

Turnbull, is this: Again, on the same topic, you express the concern about elitism and the separation of students and so on, do you have any comment or kno wledge or information about the students themselves, whether they are acting in a manner or consider themselves 1151 superior to the unilingual students because of their status in this program? MR. B. TURNBULL: I can honestly answer that by saying "no." The area that I'm involved with right now is very young in the program.

I have tried as a citizen member to advise our school board of these situations, and I've tried to head it off in our area, because I feel �hat the French program can be taught in unison with the Anglo programs, and the Ukrainian programs, and the German programs, and they can be taught with harmo ny, but they'll never be taught in harmony as long as you segregate children. I just wait, like the present program we are running in our school, we are running at the Grade 3 level. I've heard educators in our area and trustees say, "We don't have any problems.

There is no fighting or misconception of the individuals." And 1 say, "The program is a young, it is just growing ." From my experience from my own two children, who I have been quite successful in keeping my stand on the issue private from them up until this last year - they're both in high school now -it took me two years to establish a parents' group in our schooL I can honestly tell you that the principal of that school is doing everything withir. his power to destroy that group, because he doesn't like the interfArence of the school membership, parents.

I'm sad to say that I will be issuing my comments to the school board and I am going to publicly ask for this man's removal, because I feel he is not only a detriment to our children, he is a detriment to all the children because he is not looking at things in an equitable manne r. I'll give you another example. There has been talk in our school, and I have no foundation for this fact outside of it's hearsay, except for one thing. I know of one person.

New children are coming into our school and we have reason to believe that they are not being told that there is an English program within the schooL They are being sold the merits of bilingualism in the French and Ukrainian language. I have it on fact that one person, who is an immigr ant, came into the school to register and she was interested in the English Program. She was shown the Ukrainian Program -this woman happened to be Ukrainian, by the way -and she was shown the French Program. She went from there to another school who taught English and German.

The principal of that school, once finding out where she lived, directed her to Springfield Heights, and she told the principal they don't have an English Program there. I question what's going on in our education system. Are our school boards, are our school trustees, are our superintendents and principals being guided to push this Immersion Program at all costs? I question that, because that's the kind of distrust that is being reaped in the area. it's sad, it really is, because 1 don't think any person in t��ir right mind has anyth ing against a person l �arning another language.

Gentlemen, I submit to you, it's all in the way the soup is being made. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you, Mr. Turnbull. MR. CHAIRMAN: Further questions from members of the comm ittee?

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 Seeing none, Mr. Turnbull, thank you very much for your presentation this evening. That concludes the presentation hearing portion of the meetings. The Chair hasn't been notified of any intention to call subsequent meetings, so I take it the next meeting would be at the call of the Chair, unless there is further busin ess before the committee. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I have a question that probably is one that the Clerk might be able to answer. There have been numerous briefs that have been filed and we, as members, have not yet seen those briefs.

Have we any ind ication when the addendum will be printed and when we can expect to get the recorded Hansard of all of the hearings to date? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm advised that the transcript for this meeting will include all of the 95, I believe, written briefs to date; that it may well be, because of the volume of that particular transcript, that it may not be available until the middle or end of next week. The other transcripts up to that one have been coming on a fairly regular basis, and I expect the balance should be caught up by the end of this week or early next week.

The Hansard staff, because of the volume and also because of the translation that has been involved, are doing the best they can, but there have been some delays. Mr. Graham. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, does that include the translations? MR. CHAIRMAN: The translation of briefs presented in French to English, they have originally appeared in French in the transcript of the hearing at which they were given. The translation has appeared in the earliest su bsequent issue of the transcript at which it was available, so they have appeared on an ongoing basis.

For example, all of the briefs given in French at the initial Winni peg hearings have already appeared, I believe, in the Swan River or Ste.

Rose transcript as an appendix to that, and they are cross-referenced as to the original issue. lt may be possible, if perhaps each caucus might like, we have avoided this so far, but if there is some urgency in terms of seeing the written briefs, we are reluctant to copy all of the 95 written briefs for every member and felt we only put them in the transcript to avoid fairly extensive costs and volume of material. it's a stack almost a foot high, and Hansard is currently working on the docu ments to get them int o th e transcript, which is what the comm ittee had earlier requested. lt may be possible by Friday of this week to produce one complete set for each caucus.

MR. H. GRAHAM: No, Mr. Chairman, that wasn't the request that we are making at all. What I am concerned about, and I'm sure every member is concerned about, we have heard nume rous briefs, it's going to take time to assess those briefs, and it would be beneficial to have the complete recorded Hansards for that, so that we would have it all in one uniform size where we could do our work. The work that is before us still is extensive, and was just wondering if there was some ind ication of when we could have the Ha nsard additions so we could then begin our work. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Clerk has advised that they should all be done by the end of next week at the latest, done and printed and in members' hands. Of course, that's based upon the Clerk's best estimate at this point, having talked to the Hansard Co-ordinator earlier in the day. I can get the member a firmer estimate perhaps tomo rrow or Thurs day. MR. H. GRAHAM: That I thank you for, Mr. Chairman. I was just looking at what kind of time frame we're looking at when you mention the next meeting should be at the call of the Chair .

Realizing that it is going to be another 10 days before we have the material before us, I think it's a pretty voluminous task that is before us, and I'm sure that there will be some contact before that time as to the suitabil ity of the next meeting, so I'm quite willing to abide by the call of the Chair for the next meeting. MR. CHAIRMAN: I would make one point, Mr.

Graham, in accordance with a request of members at the beginning of these hearings, I had asked Hansard staff and asked them to ask the Queen's Printer to put the transcripts of these hearings on the same basis as they do the transcripts of Ha nsard of the Assembly itself, so that the fastest possible reproduction and turnaround time could be accomplished because of the importance of the issue. They have been doing that, but certainly the volume of some of the transcripts and the translation have meant some delays.

With regard to the time for the next meeting, as Chair, I don't have any specific information at this time, but I think it's reasonable to assume that since the meeting to consider an initial draft report of the Standing Comm ittee on Agriculture considering the Western Transportation Initia tive, the whole Crow issue, was some four weeks or thereabouts after the hearings ended, I think on this issue it's not an unreasonable assumption to think that it may well take that long or long er. I know that members in the government feel there is a time imperative, but that's something that's going to have to be decided.

I assume the Chair will be advised by the government when it wishes to have the first meeting to consider the report and that will be done in consultation with the opposition. I unde rstand that's normal practice. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: One other item I would have -Mr. Lyon. HON. S. LYON: I think you've already confirmed it, Mr. Chairman, and if so, the question is redundant.

If there could be any ind ica tion from mem bers of the government, who are at the comm ittee tonight, about your expectation and it would be mine, too, that at the very least we would not be convening until after all members had had the opportunity of having all copies of Hansard in front of them; that's No. 1. 1152

Tuesday, 4 October, 1983 Then, if we could expect as in the normal course that there would be sufficient notice, as Mr. Graham has indicated, given so that people on both sides of the House can order their affairs to be at the commit tee meetings; that's No. 2. I think you have quite properly ind icated that kind of notice would be given by you as soon as possible.

Then, No. 3, I would expect again, can we expect that the government at that reconvened meeting two, four weeks hence, whenever it may be, would be working toward providing a draft, a first draft of a comm ittee report, that we would have an opportunity to look at preferably before the comm ittee met or what would be your expectation in that respect? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Lyon, all of the suggestions you make are reasonable and conform with past practice, but I can't speak for the government's intentions at th