Manitoba Hansard — 8 March 1979 (Sitting 16B, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-16b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

... ., ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 168 8:00 P.M. Thursday, March 8, 1979 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

> • • LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 8, 1979 Time: 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to order. The Estimates of Highways and Transportation, Resolution No. 72; 5. Assistance Programs - $6,200,000. 5.(

a) Work in Unorganized Territory - $2,800,000 - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister could give us a report on what is happening as far as the assistance programs are concerned, it appears there's a substantial increase - I'm not sure now; we'll check back for last year at how it looks ... MR. CHAIRMAN: We're talking about 5.(

a) Work in Unorganized Territory - $2,800,000, page 56. MR. ADAM: Oh, I see. Last year, Mr. Chairman, we show ... MR. CHAIRMAN: $2,762,700. MR. ADAM: . .. we show $18,320,000 last year on the program. Am I correct? MR. CHAIRMAN: Under 5.(a). MR. ADAM: And this year, we show ... I think that is probably where the assistance to the City of Winnipeg is. Am I correct on that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . - To the Member for Ste. Rose - Resolution 72 . MR. ADAM: Resolution 72, and I am looking at last year.

We had a figure on the right-hand column of $18,320 ,000, and that shows up on our current Estimates as $3,677,200.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman, that is the bloc funding impact on this resolution, the $15 million of moneys that are part of the Reconciliation Statement on the front page again, and part of that $28,420,000 that has been transferred out of this resolution. Is that right, Mr . Chairman? MR. ADAM: Yes. Is it only $15,000 that has been ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Million. MR.

ADAM: . .. to the City of Winnipeg, or is there more, and would it be possible to get a breakdown on what happened, where the money went, and where the money is going this year. Mr. Chairman, there is $3,677,200 on the left hand side. There is almost $15 million that has been transferred somewhere. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, transferred to the Department of Municipal Affairs, is a figure of $3.5 million which, I assume , was the figure for the Fairlane Mile grant transit support; an additional $9, 120,000.00 . That intake encompasses in substance the transit grant amount, and I believe there 681

Thursday, March 8, 1979 was some purchasing of buses last year in that figure . Is that ... And then the $800 ,000 was the support the province gave to the City of Winnipeg for innovative transit systems , the handicapped bus, the trials of the Dash service , etc . And those , Mr. Chairman, to the Honourable Member for Ste . Rose, are the . .. and in addition to that of course , the street capital program , the major item which last year you know , showed up as $15 million . Now the City did not draw down the entire $15 million .

I think it was in the area of $13 million, $12,800,000, or $13 million , and the balance of that capital lapsed under the new bloc funding process now. We will not be showing it separately or determining separately what the City - indeed how the City wishes to apply these moneys . To give the Honourable Member a breakdown of how the City streets capital works project was built, the City would have to supply that kind of information . A substantial portion, if I can highlight it, a substantial portion of it went for the major costs that occurred in this last year for the completion of the South St. Vital bridge .

That was one of the major capital works constructions that were under taken by the City , but it was a 50 percent contribution that the prov ince makes to the City in their capital works program. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could advise the committee what programs are contemplated this year insofar as assistance programs are concerned . It's quite a reduction in this area from last year. and . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , perhaps if we can just deal with it, the assistance that has been traditionally supplied by the department to the various jurisdictions is unchanged , both in scale and scope and in formula. We undertake assistance work in the unorganized territories for which some $2,800,000 is being requested under 5(

a) this year. You'll note that's just a normal bit of a growth there ; last year the actual amount allocated in this appropriation was 2,000, 762, so that appropriation is up some 40 odd thousand , which , I would assume , is just normal growth , salaries and expenditures. The kind of assistance that we provide to other jurisdictions in terms of aid and grants to smaller cities , towns , communities , is again based on much the same formula .

When the Honourable Member says there 's quite a drastic reduction here, and there 's quite a bit less shown here, that's quite true in the way it is shown here, but you have to keep in the back of your mind constantly the amount of money that is now being put into the bloc grant that the city is getting . If you take that bloc grant money back and put it back in here, then there is no reduction, indeed you could find the normal kind of growth pattern develop . MR. ADAM: I wonder , Mr.

Chairman , if we could have the Minister advise us if there was any funds under this item that were unexpended last year , and if there were , have they lapsed? Did they lapse last fall if there was any funds that were not allocated last fall? - on the left-hand column. MR. ENNS: Any unused capital funds that Department of Highways had were lapsed last April 1st, and I would assume that it would happen again this year . In other words, under the new financing or accounting method that is being applied by the Department of Finance , they do not have capital carry-over funds , or revolving funds if you like.

I'm told that in the Department of Highways , one of the few, if not the only remaining revolving capital type fund continues to exist and that's in our machine replacement fund. I understand that that is one of the few, if not the only funds of that nature that currently exist in the Government of Manitoba . MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister is able to provide figures to show what amounts were lapsed in April, if any. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , we would have to check with the Department -of Finance. I have no - .. .. reason not to undertake to provide those figures for the honourable member .

I'm advised that they 11 were provided last year . and were provided by finance . I think the matter of lapsing unspent or unused capital has always been carried on by this government and by other governments . There is a difference between funds that have been allowed to stand in a carry-over account or a revolving 682

.. • • Thursday, March 8, 1979 replenishment account, but the concept of lapsing funds in any appropriation - in fact, some people would say that that is one of the built-in characteristics that we have in government service, that defeats efforts of fiscal responsibility within departments . In other words the service recognizes if x number of dollars are allocated in that appropriation , and if the're not spent, then they're lapsed .

So there is a kind of a built-in mechanism to, particularly towards the end of the year, to hurry up and spend the money, whether it serves the purpose , whether it's useful or not is not the case. It is that kind of lapsing that we're talking about , Mr. Chairman.

Now, I would have to check with the Department of Finance , but that kind of fiscal information comes from the Department of Finance. 1 understand it was made available last year by the Department of Finance and I assume it would be made available again this year , indeed I think it would be an appropriate question to ask the Minister of Finance when his Estimates next appear before us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, well, Mr.

Chairman , I guess perhaps , you know it seems to me that the Minister would have liked to have spent all the money that he was allocated last year; I understand that. But he should have the amounts that he spent under this item . he should have that somewhere. Surely the department must know how much they've spent, don't they? You have nothing to show in your books how much you spent? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , our year is not over yet; our accounts have not been closed off for the year ; we are obviously in a positio n to come reasonably close to what we estimate our position to be, but we have another month to operate, and we have another month of this kind of weather and snow storms to worry about in terms of clearing off highways, you know, we haven't closed off the books on the Department of Highways yet. MR. ADAM: Yes, I wonder if the Minister can give us assurance that that information will be available to us at some time? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised by my Deputy Minister that that kind of information is available on a regular basis, publ ished in the annual report. But in addition to that, I will undertake to see, as I have attempted to on other matte rs requested by Members of the committee , to make the information available as soon as possible . I think it may be of help to the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose to remember when last we met we talked about the extra warrants or supplementary supply and the question then was brought up that we had, because of the inability to transfer funds from certain appropriations we had a $3.5 million surplus in some accounts but a $2.6 million deficit in other accounts and had to go to supplementary supply for that $2.6 million. So I suppose, in effect, that $3.3 million or $3.5 million - I forget the figure - surplus gives you some indication of the amounts of money that were unspent or were lapsed by the Department of Highways. MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a)-pass - the Member for St.

Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, did I hear the Minister say that there was no capital carry-over into the year that we're now in, that it all lapsed as of April 1st? MR. ENNS: That is correct , Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: I would ask the Minister to explain in the Reconciliation Statement what the amount of carry-over of capital authority , $1.5 million , refers to. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that within the Department of Highways it had already, since last year, went on to the new accounting system.

There was no capital carry-over in the Department of Highways , but we do sbow, in this set of Estimates, a capital carry-over that came to us from Northern Affairs . MR. CHAIRMAN: 5.(a) $2,800,000-pass; (5)(

b) Maintenance and Construction $3,400 million pass, the Member from Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes I wonder if the Minister could elaborate , there seems to be an increase of $2,500 million or thereabouts . Could he explain what maintenance and construction does he anticipate would 683

Thursday, March 8, 1979 require this additional funding? And also could he advise where the recoverable portion come from , from what other . . . ? !.. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that prior to 1978-79 fiscal year all major projects , for example: roads for Manitoba Hydro , railway crossings etc., were financed through capital accounts on a net basis . Under existing policy these projects must now be shown for and the moneys provided for on a gross basis and then the recoveries are credited to, unfortunately not to Highways , but '"' to General Revenue.

In other words when Highways undertakes to build a million dollar road for Manitoba Hydro up North somewhere or we're engaged in some other crossings or whether they are rail crossings , etc. , that aren 't under the explicit responsibility of the Department of Highways , we undertake to do the work . The money used to be in a special capital account system that Finance provided for the money to be drawn down from .

We now have to - because we've done away with these capital amounts sitting around anywhere in government - the Department that will be charged with the responsibility of carrying out the work has to show it in their Estimates and the recoveries , although the member is quite right, in this instance there would appear to be a fairly substantial increase from $3. 1 million to $5 million. The recoveries will be coming directly to revenue , consolidated revenue in the Department of Finance. ' MR. ADAM: Yes, I'm not sure yet where the $1.6 million, where it comes from, Hydro or ... MR.

ENNS: We have for instance in the '78-79 Estimates , we showed as service to non-government agencies by that is not the Departmental responsibilities , of some $914,500 . This year because of the change in the accounting , we have to show a total of some $3.4 million in that account, which is the $2.485 million increase that is now in question . In other words, we have to provide and show it in a gross accounting way for all anticipated work and in the requests that we are in receipt of, that we know we'll be carrying out this year .

Hydro is the principle , or has been the principle, we have on one project alone a commitment to Manitoba Hydro to pave a portion of the road between Gillam and Long Spruce, which is in the amount of $1 million , just, I think, just in the neighbourhood of $1 million . That's one project alone . Now that kind, if you want an example, to the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, that kind of project, which is not a project being carrying out on a Provincial Highway or on a Provincial road system, it's not being carried out, you know, under our normal aids to municipalities or cities and towns .

It is a prog ram, a piece of work that we are doing at the request of an outside agency, in this instance, Manitoba Hydro , to build some roads for them . They will pay back to the Provincial Treasury the $1 million but I have to show it in my Estimates here. It's a little confusing, but it's not meant to be, Mr. Chairman . MR. ADAM: Yes, it doesn 't show in the

preamble here that we're doing work under this appropriation here for, such as Hydro , and I'm wondering why it isn't shown here more clearly , and I believe the Minister said that any unexpended funds went back to general revenues , is that what the ... This is appropriation for highways , and then if it's not spent it goes into general revenues to spend for hospital sheets or ... Well, that money, what happens to it? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , it goes to the Department of Finance and I would certainly hope and assume that it then becomes part of the general revenue picture of the Province , enables the reapplication of total resources . It might even make it possible to put regular linen bed sheets into the hospitals rather than tarpaulins . MR. ADAM: Yes, this is certainly a bit confusing, and I think it's because of the change in bookkeeping system and it's perhaps not as bad as what we ran into last year, but it does indicate that there are some problems , it does create some confusion. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just one further word .

I'm advised that last year, or in years previous, work of this kind would be undertaken by the Department but then very often the money would be raised by special warrant or supplementary supply . The decision of Finance has been to reduce as much as possible, the need for supplementary supply and special warrant, and I think that should be something that the Opposition would generally favour in the sense that as much as possible of the government's anticipated expenditures are laid out before you in the Estimates , for your examination.

We have been instructed to anticipate, to the greatest extent possible , the kind of possible expenditures that will be carried out by the Department, and have them shown in the 684 ..

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ADAM: Yes, did the Minister indicate where the $1.6 million appropriation was transferred from, recoverable from? Where does that come from? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that is a service to other government agencies. MR. ADAM: . . . be Hydro? ..,. MR. ENNS: In this case, other government departments, it can be Mines and Resources, it can be Parks, it can be again , I suppose , Tourism, if we're involved in developing, you know, some access roads to a road , if we're involved in providing some services , forestry trails and roads . • MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, any roads ... MR.

ENNS: Not that I can specifically identify , no. Now that's not to say that there may not be some at the end of the year, but I think you would determine that better when you examine the Estimates of the Tourism Department, the Parks Department as to the specifics of their improvement program which would include, whether it is the building of some docks, or roads, or access to different lakes . MR. ADAM: As far as the Minister is concerned, there is no funds as far as he knows that are intended for the Whiteshell at this time. One more question, Mr. Chairman.

If the department has to build a road for Hydro, specifically for Hydro 's use, is Hydro responsible for the cost of that construction, or where is the Recoverable there shown? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , we showed in its gross form, that is the reason for the $2.4 million increase in this appropriation. Hydro is totally responsible for it if it is not part of the provincial road system in any way, and Hydro reimburses Finance with the amounts that we have spent on their behalf on that kind of a road. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could advise, under the

section of Gross Expenditures, would there beaany moneys in there for capital works that were done at Gull Harbour , say in last year 's figure, or this year's? MR. ENNS: I am advised that is not the case, Mr. Chairman. MR. MINAKER: There wouldn't be any work at Gull Harbour that was initially done for capital commitments shown under Highways then, in this section? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate if the Minister would provide to us, a breakdown of the various projects that are being paid for under this appropriation. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised by my staff that that is difficult to provide at this particular • time. I would assume that it is anticipated that we will be called on to carry out certain projects; the nature of them, the specifics of them are not particularly known to us at this time. If I understand the appropriation correctly, we know from previous experience and indeed within the priorities of the funds available to us, that we set out X number of dollars that are available tor us to respond to different territories , different departments, different organizations that ask for them.

I suppose what we could do, is undertake to provide you a breakdown of the work undertaken in the year just concluded. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , we are dealing with a very significant increase under this item. I would assume that the Minister would be in a position to give us some more precise indication as to why such an additional sum of money is being expended and would be able to provide some itemization as to the projects which he has in mind to warrant the additional expenditure. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I will try to say it once more.

I know, I'm perhaps not saying it very clearly , that the $2.485,500 which, in effect, represents the increase , is brought about by the requirement by finance that we now show this on a gross accounting basis. It's the kind of money 685

Thursday, March 8, 1979 that was previously drawn down from an existing Capital Account not within the Department of Highways, but within the Department of Finance, probably managed by the Management Committee of the abolition of that Capital Account and the request from Finance to show these kinds of moneys that used to be in Capital Accounts in the Estimates in these ways.

That's what makes it appear to be a significant increase when in effect , for the amounts I just read out here , prior to 78-79 fiscal year , all major projects , example , roads for Manitoba Hydro , railway crossings , etc. , were financed through a Capital Account on a net basis . Now , under the existing policy , these projects must be provided for as on a gross basis and the recoveries that then come back to government are credi ted to General Revenue . I think it would !< be clearer if I showed the recoveries coming back to the Departmen t of Highways and I might well wish that that were the case.

What it does, quite frankly , is that it shows and puts the Department ~- of Highways in a position of spending , in this instance , more dollars , w hen, in effect , we're not doing it for the Department of Highways . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , then , if I could just pursue that Maintenance and Construction Other Jurisdictions . Now, Hydro has been mentioned as one of the other jurisdictions . Could the minister indicate what other jurisdictions beside Hydro? MR. ENNS: That is the single kind of substantial outside agency.

The principal reason for this account of course , is the ongoing support that is provided to the LGDs towns , cities and hamlets and villages throughout Manitoba . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition comes from the community of Selkirk , is aware that every year the province undertakes to share costs of certain arterial and approved streets within a community on a 50-50 basis . We share this on the same basis with the LGDs and unorganized territories and that is the traditional , roughly $3 and one-half million , in that area, that is spent in this manner.

That is, we anticipate spending these kind of moneys, making these kind of services available to our smaller centres , towns , villages , and unorganized territories again in the coming year. That accounts for the ongoing program , the $3.6, several million dollars . Now, what throws this kind of out of balance , is that on top of that now is added on the gross accounting of the outside agencies , like Hydro , which accounts for $2.485 million in itself . And the listing , you know, the listing , it's a very large number of relatively smaller projects .

They can range anywhere from several hundred dollars to more substantial dollars , 50, 60, 80, or 100,000 dollars , but in most instances , the grants are running in the form of 8, 10, 15,000 dollars to help a community put a better paving on their main street . It's under this program that communities such as Swan River make their major improvements to their Main Street. It's under this program that in earlier years the Town of Selkirk received its 50 percent contribution by the Province to improve their streets . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman , under recoveries last year we heard a great deal about the now famous Jarmoc matter and the road which was built into the Jarmoc property . And, if I recall correctly , there were to be moneys recovered for the expenditure of sums in the construction of that road . Would that fall under this

section within the Highways Department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . • .._ ... MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that that would fall entirely within the Department of Tourism and Recreation . 1:- MR. PAWLEY: So the recovery would be within that Department? MR. ENNS: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , I believe that the type of work that the Minister has outlined for us that could be cost-shared with the LGDs and villages would be an ongoing basis as he indicated perhaps on a two or three year ongoing basis? MR. ENNS: Pardon me, Mr . Chairman, I did not get the first part of the Honourable Member 's question . 686

• • Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ADAM: Yes, I'll be glad to repeat, Mr. Chairman . I said that the cost-shared work under the Assistance Program and Maintenance and Construction Programs, would be on an ongoing basis as the Minister has indicated and therefore if a request came from a municipality or a village for assistance to do paving of certain streets within their towns or villages, that once the program was accepted that it would probably be two or three years before it could come onstream.

Therefore, it seems to me that the Minister should be able to provide some breakdown of what applications are on hand in order to ask for say $2.8 million, and the difference between $2.5 and $5 million. There should be some applications on hand from Alonsa , from Rorketon, wherever; there should be, under an ongoing program . Is that not correct, Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , that kind of list is that long and is carried on very often at a pace that the city or town or village itself can handle and is very often the determining factor at what pace the program or improvement will be undertaken .

It has to be remembered that the community has to raise 50 percent of the dollars and if the community, we often find ourselves, the community has been involved in several other major public works undertakings in a year, they may well defer a year or two because of their concern about their own mill rate in that community. Otherwise, there could be an unacceptable tax increase loaded onto that community. So we find ourselves , as the Member correctly indicated, working out with a mayor or his counsellor or reeve improvements to streets in a community .

We have a criteria by which certain streets are approved and essentially the streets that service the business area, the major centres within a community , that is the recreational facilities or school facilities, we have maps of all the villages and communities like this on record and it is an ongoing business that the mayors and reeves from the villages and towns and communities of the province come and see the department with requests that they hope will eventually come onstream, and they do.

But the two governing factors of what pace the program is carried on, one of the principle ones is the ability of the community to pick up its 50 percent of the share without an inordinate increase in their tax burden. MR. ADAM: Yes, it's my understanding that if a community or a village does not proceed with their projec t because of what the Minister has just outlined , this program would lapse. The work has to be done by the 31st of March . Is that correct? MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have many requests that the department is aware of that have maybe been presented several years back.

Very often there is a fair bit of engineering work that has to be done . Very often we find in some of the communities before any improvements can be undertaken, we have to resolve drainage problems or other problems not specifically related to the road improvement problem . These have to be sorted out by the community involved in advance and it is a continuing program . It has been part of the services the Department of Highways has provided for our smaller communities every since its existence.

I think if I'm reading the member correctly, he's looking for some kind of carry-over capacity here to assure the Department 's capability of responding to these requests that may be deferred a year or two in the planning stages . All I can tell him is that this is an item that appears regularly in the Department of Highways' estimates. We have found from experience that this is about the level of money that we can afford within the Department of Highways and also I might say by and large, what the communities can afford.

With them picking up 50 percent of the tab they have to pace themselves at a level that their tax mill rate can accept. MR. ADAM: Yes, I take it then that if a project didn't proceed within the fiscal year that the community would have to reapply if they wanted it done. MR. ENNS: Yes, we update the applications constantly but all I'm trying to indicate is that when we know that we are on.

We'll often get, if I can just describe the situation, a mayor or the counsellors or a city will come in and say that we would like to over the next three or four years do work on this street, to our hospital, to our school ; we'd like to do work on this street and that street and then we will sit down with them and firstly within the capability of our own budget and say to them the total work may be $100,000 for which the community has to pick up $50,000.00. Well, they look at their own budget and say well we're only prepared to do about $12,000 or $15,000 work in any given year.

So then we will program that out for them on a two and a three year basis . But each year the specific work to be undertaken that year is reapplied for because our staff people have to be able to budget for the exact amounts to be undertaken. Also we try, 687

Thursday, March 8, 1979 as much as possible , to marry that to, if we can, particularly if they 're out to be small jobs , to a neighboring job that perhaps is in the area. Very often then the prices can be materially affected and reduced .

If, for instance, if we are letting, that is, the Department of Highways , a paving contract within the vicinity of Alonsa, or of Virden , in that area, that's usually an appropriate time for the city then , or the town , to take advantage of the presence of that contractor or somebody else to say, well , now' s a good time, we can get our per unit costs down considerably to get what otherwise might be a fairly small paving job and difficult to get a contractor to come out all the way from somewhere to do. ~ MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. I'm sorry, were you through? MR. ENNS: I'm through, yes. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I'd like to ask the Minister if anything under this item appears in the program lists that will be available , I think, tomorrow is it? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman , the listing when the members will see it is already long enough and, as I say, this covers items ranging from several hundred dollars to several thousands and up to hundreds of thousands of dollars but it is simply not possible to list that and we're certainly not in a position to put up a list today or indeed in the next month .

Applications come in for this kind of work throughout the year , it's an ongoing kind of thing and if we know for a fact that when we are going to be doing a bit of a paving contract past the great community of Reston that the mayor and the councillor and the member from that area will come in to say, " Well, gee, we hadn't really planned on fixing up 85th and State Street in Reston right now but we do now want to take advantage of while that contractor 's in the area to have this $800 project carried out. " MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr . Chairman.

I wanted to go back with the Min ister if I could to his explanation of the increase here and his explanation that previously the account was with finance but now it's been shifted over to Highways but the money, I believe he said now goes back directly to finance in the recovery from other appropriations . Can he explain to me perhaps again the fact that there was a little over $3 million in gross expenditures last year and $2.2 recoverable from other operations? Now , is this new amount something that is tacked on? Is it two separate accounts? I'm not clear on that . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR.

ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman, I've alluded it to having been an account in Finance. My staff is not particularly suggesting that that's where . is was. It would appear to be from our information that there was a capital account . I'm assuming it was set up in Finance . All I know, it wasn't set up in our department. That work for other agencies carried out by the department - the moneys were drawn down from that account.

Those kind of accounts , capital accounts , have been abolished, and that is where the bulk of the increase, $2.485 million , that was previously in that account is now shown in our regular Estimates on a gross basis .

Now, the government will get those recoveries , but with all due respect I would perhaps request the members to reserve some of these questions - I appreciate that I'm not answering them to their satisfaction - but to reserve those concerns when dealing with the Department of Finance in the manner and way in which the changeover or the abolition of certain capital accounts are being handled and the instructions that were then sent out by Finance to line departments such as Highways, as to how we have to show them in our books . MR.

WALDING: Is the Minister telling me then that the same sorts of projects were carried out last year and paid for from two separate accounts, one of $3.1 million and one for $2.48 million? MR. ENNS: Well, let me try this out on the members. The Highways Department provides specialized services to other government departments and to such other jurisdictions as cities, towns, villages, 688

Thursday, March 8, 1979 municipalit ies, local government districts and private parties . Receipts for services to other government departments are credited back to this app ropriation while receipts for services to other jurisdictions are credited to General Revenue. Consequently expenditure exceeds recoveries by an estimated $3.4 million . I thought that sounded pretty good , Mr. Chairman. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , does the Minister then expect to, in the fiscal year in which we're in now, does he expect to spend $3.114 million and get back $2.2 million, or does he expect to spend somewhere in the region of $5. something million? MR. ENNS: We will spend the $5 million . We expect to spend the $5 million and we will have a recovery of $1.6 million to the department's appropriations . MR. WALDING: No, Mr. Chairman, not the coming year . MR. ENNS: Of this year . MR. WALDING: The '78-79 year. The $3.114. MR.

ENNS: Last year in th is account , or in this appropriation , on the adjusted vote we had the . ._ figure of $3,114 ,000 .00. We had recoveries of $2,200 ,000 as shown on the left-hand side here, so we've had in effect a net expenditu re on this account of some which is shown here. MR. WALDING: A somewhat ephemeral account , that it was with Finance or somewhere that the Minister has been drawing on for some pro jects . MR. ENNS: That accounts why we are on the right-hand side now showing $5 million . The that formally came back to us - $2.2 million it doesn 't come back to us, it goes to Finance. MR.

CHAIRMAN : Pass - the Member for St. Vita l. MR. WALDI NG: No, Mr. Chairman , I'm still not satisfied that I really understand th is properly . Is this then an absolute increase of almost $2 million that is being spent on Maintenance and ~ Construction urisdictions? • MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman . It is an accounting exercise that we are faced with here . MR. WALDING: Can the Minister explain that last statement? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I don 't wish to be difficult. If I could explain it better I would.

I am merely advised that owing to a previous capita l account , appropr iation from a source outside the department , and the request from Finance to indicate any anticipated work that we will be doing for outside agencies to be shown in their gross position in this accounting , accounts for the increase' the rather substantial increase . But inasmuch as the Department of Highways is concerned in terms of, and in as much as the villages and as much as the service that we intend to carry out, we don 't ant icipate more than a status quo or a slight increase for regular growth . MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister is going to spend $5 million this coming year, $3 million for the past year, that would look like an absolute increase of $2 million , in round figures. Now, if he says that it is not , then can he tell me where the $2 million was last year that is the same as this year . MR. ENNS: In a capita l account admin istered by the Department of Finance, I assume, but 1 believe that question is more appropriately asked to Finance . .r MR. WALDING: But did the Department of Highways actually administer that additional $2 million? Did it pass through their hands into the physical construction? 689

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ENNS: I don't believe so. I believe we did the physical construction . We did the work for other parties, but the dollars to do that work came from this Capital Account which was not administered by the department, and the recoveries did not come to us as well. Mr. Chairman , I ask the indulgence of the Honourable Member for St. Vital. I appreciate tha t this is a particular area that the member and other members wish to clarify .

That is the matt er of how accounts are being treated and shown , but it is difficult for me to provide that informatio n for him without the assistance of the Department of Finance from whom we received instructions to show accounts in a somewhat different way than we ourselves have in the past in the traditional way. MR. WALDING: Can the Minister assure me that for the last year there was approximately $5 million worth of work done by the department under this particula r heading? MR. ENNS: I would assume that could be the case. MR. WALDING: I think I'm now a little clearer , Mr. Chairman .

So what the Minister is saying , that this $2.5 million , he feels shouldn 't be in this department and wasn 't last year , and serves to artificially inflate, or to inflate the Estimates of the Department of Highways for the coming year . MR. ENNS: I'm not prepared to comment on that , Mr. Chairman . It is a matter in the way in which the government generally wishes to show its total dollar figures in terms of whether there are Capital Accounts , Capital carryover accounts left sitting here and there , obviously that is not the direction that the Department of Finance wishes to take.

I'm not suggesting , I'm not prepared to comment that this is not as realistic or a more realistic way of showing the kind of works undertaken by the department. I can assure the honourable member that the dollar figures shown , whether it was $5 million work done , is highways ' type work done . The difference is perhaps that in the previous year it was not shown in such a clear way. One would have to find and examine the accounts in other departments such as Finance to find out that $2 million wort h of highways ' work was carr ied on by the department for some other agency .

I think in total this could well be a clearer way of showing the actual work undertaken , whether it's specifically under the jur isdiction and the responsibility of the department , or some related outside agencies. MR. WALDING: What the Minister is now telling me is that this amount , th is figure , does not represent $2.5 million more work by the department than it did last year. MR. ENNS: I think that's true . I believe , staff has advised me as best they can that we anticipate that more work would be requested .

There is, within the rationale of the organization , re-organization of the department to undertake more of the responsibility for highways ' work generally to be, that heretofore existed in numerous other departments, principally Mines and Natural Resources , Parks Tourism, the Northlands in the northern agreements , I think that there will be a genuine increase in the amount or the workload of the Department of Highways because we feel that it's the Department of Highways that is best equipped to do this work, so it will show as a real increase as far as the Department of Highways is concerned, but that is not to say that it is more in tota l.

If you examined , if you went to compare the budgets of the Mines and Natural Resources , you would find dollars set aside there . If you examined the budgets of Tourism and Recreation, you would find dollars, and indeed equipment set aside there for the maintenance of fireguards, maintenance of parks roads , and so forth. So there is an increase in the workload activity of the department here , but the recovery will also be made correspondingly . MR. WALDING: That's exactly what I'm getting at, Mr. Chairman .

It would appear , from looking at the figures that there would be $2.5 million more of maintenance and construction done, but since it's a bookkeeping change , there will not in fact be that much more, unless there is some extra demand at a later time for it. MR. ENNS: I believe that observation is generally correc t. MR. WALDING: Okay . Then as a conclusion, Mr.

Chairman , it seems that members on this side would owe the Minister and perhaps the government an apology, that rather than an increase in this Department of Highways of $1 .2 million , there is in fact an effective decrease of $1 .2 million in Highways, and that perhaps the government's emphasis is not primarily on highways and concrete, but it 's maybe somewhere else. 690 ...

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Will there be the same situation that we're running into now under

Section 8? That is another area where the Finance Department is doing the bookkeeping, or whatever it is. MR. ENNS: No, that is a little more straightforward in the sense that the Recovery Agreements with Canada are fairly clear and set out. Our co-operat ion, our work with the Department of Northern Affairs in terms of the winter roads systems is again pretty well established over the years and is carrying on in the same manner . We have transfers of funds coming from Northern Affairs to this department in this Resolution , and I think we'll be dealing with the matters there in a somewhat clearer way. MR. ADAM: The Minister, in outlining the different programs of assistance under this

preamble here mentioned private parties . I wonder if we cou ld get an elaboration , what he means when he talks about assistance to private parties. MR. ENNS: I'm advised that this is kind of an ongoing specialized service activity which is available to government departments and others when required .

The services include snowplowing - for instance if you , as an individual requ ire snowplowing, if we are capable of responding to it, we will , but we will charge you, as the members are aware of- dragging , rental of specialized equipment to specialized services to cities, towns and villages and municipalities, and the total of this amount that is carried out , while we again have to show it, is recoverable . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: We will get our request in sometime . MR. ENNS: Pardon me, Mr. Chairman .

For the services of a maintainer to drag an access road to private property or to a private business, but on the established charge basis , that charge is made and the amount spent is recoverable . MR. ADAM: Is there any part of this program here where work is done on regular work , like say, No. 1, or intersect ions, or whatever . MR. ENNS: My staff advises me that that's not the case. MR. ADAM: That would show up unde r the previous item that we passed under Maintenance. MR. ENNS: Right. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman , I want to apologize for not being able to be here and listen to the Honourable Minister 's subm ission in total. I was also interested in the other debate that's going on in the House. I assume this is the appropriate

section to inquire as to whether any municipal works were . . . whether the department had funds to cover all requests in terms of cost-sharing of cost-sharable streets and roads within towns and cities and municipalities? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it would be more appropriate to discuss that item under Resolution 8. On the top of Page 57, Acquisition/Construction of Physical Assets , 8(a), Aids to Cities , Towns and Villages. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the assistance program on the recoverables here, which relates to unorganized territories , etc.

I wonder if the Minister could just give an overall indication of the total amount that would be spent by his department out of the Northlands Agreement, to save me trying to find each one if he would be so kind as to come up with that figure. MR. ENNS: We have allocated the figure of some $6 million that will hopefully be spent by the Department of Highways and Transporta tion. I should indica te to the honourable member that that may not be all-inclusive , that I would assume to be additional work to that carried out as well under the North lands Agreement by the Department of Northern Affairs . MR.

McBRYDE: What transport ation functions are left with Northern Affairs that might come under 691

Thursday, March 8, 1979 the Northlands Agreement. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member would have to ask that of Northern Affairs. The reason why I say that is that Northern Affairs has the responsibility of initiating and identifying projects that they wish to, and they feel fall within the gambit of the Northlands Agreement. The member asked me a question, I've indicated that our current figures indicate that we in the Department of Highways intend to spend some $6 million . And perhaps that item could be best discussed under, again under 8(

d) Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreement. MR. McBRYDE: This is why I asked the Minister this question, because the Canada-Manitoba Northlands appears a number of times in here and that's why I would like the Minister to do the adding rather than me to do the adding, because I'm sure his adding, with his departmental officials here would be more accurate than mine would be and he might understand some of the nuances that I can't pick up from out of this book. But on the general question, Mr.

Chairman, looking over the Estimates, I don't believe that there are any transportation costs coming out of the Northlands Agreement in any other department, and that's why I asked this Minister if he could give me the

summary of the transportation items that would come out of this department. In the previous years the amount available for northern road construction - and that's new construction, not upgrading and not maintenance but only new construction is covered under the Northlands Agreement - new construction of transportation services, whether that be roads or barges or other transportation services that could be justified to the federal authorities . And, Mr. Chairman, it appears that most of the other Northlands Program have been reduced by Northern Affairs or whatever other department deals with them.

I made an assumption with this Minister , Mr. Chairman, that there would not be a reduction in the Transportation Services

section , that he would fight and defend and make sure that there was no reduction in the Transportation Services, and that he would have no trouble in this glorious fight to protect these funds and construct the necessary roads for the benefit of all the people, especially in northern Manitoba . Mr. Chairman, I assumed he would have no trouble doing this because the Conservative Party's campaign ads in the north said that the NDP government was not doing enough to build northern roads and yet, Mr.

Chairman, I am having some trouble here because the yearly expenditure under the Northlands Agreement for transportation was $8 million, and now we see that the only figures I can find in the whole Estimates now is $6 million, which is hardly an expansion of that construc ·tion of necessary transportation services in northern Manitoba . Now it's quite possible, Mr. Chairman, that the department has so many other sections in here that are not cost-shared that they are getting work done under but, Mr.

Chairman, I would doubt if this Minister, in his astute ability to extract federal funds if there were another $2 million available that were 60 cent dollars, would let those go by the wayside in his quest to return the Department of Highways to its previous level of percentage expenditures of this government. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, staff in the interim has advised me that the $6 million that has been referred to can be located under the next Resolution 6 on Page 56, item 6.(c), where an amount of $5,100,000 is shown .

The reason that is shown as $5,100,000 and not the straight $6 million is that there has been a general 15 percent deducted from all the Northlands Agreement's and/or other cost-shared agreements that the government has undertaken with Canada and placed in an enabling fund. The financiers assured the department that that 15 percent is available to us. What it does is it provides for some degree of flexibility in the whole range of programs that are cove•red under such agreements as the Northlands .

The former Minister will be aware that it does happen, from time to time, that for different reasons a particular program is stalled or is not being capable of being carried out to its full fruition . It then enables us to sub-transfer, if you like, within these agreements a certain amount of funds and, for that reason, the 15 percent enabling practise was put in place . I can only indicate to the honourable member that I have every intention of using that 15 perc:ent for road construction to make that figure accountable to its full $6 million.

I point that out for the members' information that that can be discussed and will be apparent to honourable members when we look at the construction program for the coming year. Now, in addition to that, there are - and the member is quite correct - the department has last year carried, in addition to that, some between $2 million and $4 million worth of work under the regular program, not shareable under the Northlands Agreement, which would be added to this figure. And, again, that total figure will become more apparent when the program is be1'ore us.

Let me just indicate that the amounts shown - and I was in error - the amounts shown on 692 • ,

Thursday, March 8, 1979 Page 57 under B.(

d) are additional Canada-Manitoba Northlands Agreements that are within the Department of Northern Affairs to carry out related road access type projects. MR. CHAIAN: Order please , I wonder is there any of the area that we're covering right now under the present

section , Maintenance and Construction? If not, possibly we can leave it 'til that time, with the agreement of the Committee , as such. I think we're getting into an area here that we're not, at the present time, discussing. Is it agreeable? (Agreed) 5.(b) $3,400,000-pass; Resolutio n 72: $6,200,000 for Highways and Transportation Assistance Programs-pass; 6. Construction of Provincial Trunk Highways and Provincial Roads and Related Projects , 6.(

a) Regular Program $56,000 ,000 - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I would like to ask the Minister if, since we do not have the program for . . . This is the biggest appropriation in the Estimates and we do not have the program before us to indicate where this money will be expended , I am wondering if the Minister would be agreeable if we would proceed to the Motor Vehicles Branch and come back to this item once the programs have been distributed to all members of the Committee . Mr.

Chairman, if we proceed with this at this particular time it would be just like asking the taxpayer to sign a blank cheque and handing it over to the Minister , and I have a great respect for the Minister and we love him very much but without knowing the payee at the top it makes it somewhat difficult, and I wonder if the Minister would kindly agree to that. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am hurt to the quick . Can you think of a better fellow to give a blank r cheque to? MR. CHAIRMAN: But what is the discretion of the Committee? The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I don 't mean to be facetious ; I am prepared to acknowledge the legit imacy of the request by the Member for Ste . Rose, and I have asked the department' who have under some duress been work ing diligently to prepare that program. I am hopeful that it will be availab le perhaps some time late tom orrow , but there is a considerable amount of work that has to be done inasm uch it was only towards the end of last week that we had come to the conclusions with respec t to the new program of construction to be car ried out in the coming year.

That , as the members are fully aware, has to be dovetailed into the carry-ov er and on-carrying programs from last year , and it results in a f air bit of paper work that bas to be done to put this together . If it 's the wish of the Committee to put off the consideration for Resolution 73 at this time and proceed to the Motor Vehicle Branch , I'm prepared to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is this the desire of the Committee? (Agreed) The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I want to thank the Minister for being so co-operative with the Opposition and the members of the Committee .

It's rather difficult to look into this particular Estimate. It's the biggest one and I appreciate his co-operation. MR. ENNS: I must caution the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, it may be more difficult for him to consider it after he has seen the program . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 74: Motor Vehicle Branch $9,457,500, ?.(

a) Management Services : Salaries (1) $873,300-pass - the Member for Ste . Rose. MR. AI)AM: Where are we now? MR. CHAIRMAN: ?.(

a) Management Serv ices:

(1) Salaries $873 ,300 - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister give us a report on what's happening at the Motor Vehicle Branch and are there any changes in organization? Give us a general outline of what he hopes to see happen in the coming year as far as the Motor Vehicle Branch. What changes are anticipated or expected to take place under this item? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairma n, inasmuch as the Motor Vehicle Branch is a substantial operation of the department, perhaps it would be helpful for it to be permitted for me to read into the record prec isely what the honourable member was just requesting, a short over-view of the activities of 693

Thursday, March 8, 1979 the department as a prelude to the general questioning of the details that I know the members are interested in. During the year '77 Manitoba experienced a 4 percent growth rate of licensed drive rs. Numbers rose from some 546,000 to 570,000 , reflecting an increase of 24,000 licensed drivers with 66 percent of the active driving population being 44 years of age or younger. Vehicle registrations during the year '77 increased from 627,000 to 664,000 , for a 6 percent growth rate .

Commercial vehicle registrations increased in 1977 to 19,245 from 16,731 in '76 , reflecting an increase of some 2,!i 14 vehicles or 15 percent. I find that rather interest ing, Mr. Chairman , that the commercial growth in the registrations increased substantially by 15 perc ent over and above the 6 percent increase in the general thing . Do you have some cop ies that the honourable members of the Committee might have? The most substantial increases were in the area of PSV trucks , which rose from 3,766 to 4,!i65 vehicles or a 21 percent increase.

CT trucks also rose from 9,567 to some 11,4 76, or a 20 percent increase. To prov ide better service and achieve savings in operating costs , the registrations of all commercial vehicles was now computerized. In 1977 the snowmobile registrations increased to 38,879 , which has reflected about a 33 pement increase . During the '76 winte r season I am pleased to adv ise the honourable members that the Snowmobile Safety Training Program developed by the Motor Vehicle Branch was recognized by the Snowmobile Safety and Certification Comm ittee as being one of the best in North America .

Final figures reveal that accident statistics have inc reased in Manitoba during '77 . A total of - this is now for the automobile and the entire motor vehicle areas of activity - a total of some 40,897 accidents were reported , reflecting an approx imate increase of 8 percent. Injury accidents also increased from some 7,381 to 7 ,695, reflecting a 4 percent increase . Although loss of lifE! is a tragic event , the final total indicates 183 lives were lost on Manitoba highways during 1977, which compares to 213 deaths in the year 1976.

A preliminary total for 1978 - the year just finished - indicates 155 fata l accidents occurred , resulting in 186 deaths . Over the last three years th,ere has been a reduction of approximately 20 percent in the number of lives lost , giving Manitoba one of the best records in the country . 44-Bl0nvictions under the Highway Traffic Act dropped from 88,800 to 88,600, representin ~1 a negligible decrease . It is interesting to note that 66 percent of the con victions registered under the Highway Traffic Act were for speeding offences .

During '77 preliminary figures reveal that a total of 8,924 convictions under the Criminal Code relatin were relating to the operation of a motor vehicle . Of these , 7,229 related to dri nking and driving, an increase of 15 percent over the previous year. The number of suspended drivers dropped from 26,500 to 25,700 in '77 representing a decrease of some three percent. Four leading reasons for the suspens ions imposed were as follows : alcohol related offenses , failure to pay fines, cancellation of probationary licenses, multiple convictions and/or accidents .

The Motor Vehicle Branch conducted a total of 3,500 show cause hearings and wri tten submissions during 1977. A total of some 5,606 new driver improvement road tests were conduc1ted under the driver improvement program ; failure rate being approximately ten percent and in addit non to the road tests some 13,400 counselling interviews were conducted with approximately 2,CIOO drivers being referred for a defensive or performance driving course .

These persons came to tbe attention of the Motor Vehicle Branch and were acted upon clue to the fact that they either had become involved in too many accident violations or accidents or both . The driver testing administered some 47,090 road tests during the year '77 , excluding the dri ver improvement tests aforementioned . The failure rate on an overall basis for the first attempts was a fairly high figure of some 33 percent. Class 3 reflected a six percent failure rate as opposed to Class 1 and 2 which revealed a general nine percent failure rate .

A total of 112,131 written tests for the various class licences was completed . The failure rate ranged from 41 percent in the higher classes reflecting that drive rs in this category require more skill and knowledge to an overall average of 25 percent for all drivers . Physical Standards Section, whose function is to process medical information on drivers to insure that they meet the minimum medical standards processed some 21,029 medical reports during 1the year '77 . As noted , this

section was extremely busy due to the fact that some 12,900 class licence medical recalls were processed in order that the first phase of the class licence conversion from Class 1 to 4 inclusive could be completed . The remainder of the 21,029 transactions consisted of dealings in the areas of medical suspensions , registrar recalls, interview letters and renewal 694 t

Thursday, March 8, 1979 The Dealer

Section issued some 611 permits in 1977, an increase of approximately 5 percent from '76 a total of 1,422 permits were handled by this section, including 773 salesmen permits and 38 record permits . The Motor Vehicle Inspection Program was in operation from April to November of '77. Three units operated which serviced three city locations and 12 rural communities. A total of 33,500 vehicles were inspected . The inspection lanes again demonstrated that a substantial amount of vehicles on the highways are defective to varying degrees .

Upon first inspection 34 percent succeeded in passing the inspection, 62 percent failed and four percent were found to be in hazardous condition resulting in immediate cancellation of registration. Of the heavy duty vehicles inspected 61 percent failed on first inspection, a decrease of some eight percent over the prev ious year . However , upon initial inspection six percent had serious defects. The Snowmobile Safety Program during 1977 included some 305 instructors throughout the province .

During the '77 season 1,490 snowmobile operators took the course which brings the total to some 7,000 persons successfully completing the course . Accidents involving snowmobiles during '76 to '77 decreased from 95 to 84, or approximately 12 percent. Injuries also decreased from 83 to 65, which is approximately 19 percent. There were six fatalities during the '76 to '77 season as opposed to seven during the '75 to '76 season, reflecting an approximate decrease of some 14 percent. The province's Driving Education Program is in its 12th season of operation.

During '76 to '77 a total of 5,700 students successfully completed the course . A total of 235 instructors are conducting courses in 43 Winnipeg high schools and 72 rural high schools for a total of 115 schools where the course is available . Mr. Chairman, that's a brief overview of the activities of the Motor Vehicle Branch . I think it can be readily understood by the recitation of just the figures and the numbers in the areas of responsibilities that the Branch is occupied and that it is a busy branch.

It has been able to carry out the work assigned to it, I think with deligence and I'd like to take this opportunity to recognize the continu ing work of the Motor Vehicle Registrar, Mr. Peter Dygala, ably assisted by Mr. Carl Procuik, who more or less runs their show when Peter is running interference on behalf of the Minister on other occasions . With those few comments I commend the estimates of the Motor Vehicle Branch to the Committee for their consideration . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I noticed that the first item , there 's a decrease in salaries.

Has there been any staff reduc tion in this area? . Pardon me. I'm just wondering if in the breakdown of staffing that the Minister gave us, do we have a breakdown of the figures in the Motor Vehicle Branch? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: I'm advised , Mr. Chairman , that with the increasing changeover to computerization lhat there has been an overall reduction of five staff persons in this general area of the administration . MR. CHAIRMAN: (7Xa) - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I'm just trying to reconcile the staffing breakdown that was provided to us , previously.

I believe there's a breakdown here of the Motor Vehicle Branch Administration 37, '78 to '79 staffing , driver licensing 85, safety 173, boards 22, positions vacant as of February '79 in administration 1, driver licensing 7, safety 17 and boards 0. Could the Minister advise ... that would be in the management that there 's been a reduction. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the Registrar is just making himself familiar with the figures that we handed out for the total department. MR. ADAM: Well, Mr.

Chairman, if I may proceed with this a bit further, the figures of '78 '79 and the figure of February '79 only shows a vacancy of one so I'm just wondering .. . MR. ENNS: I'm advised , Mr. Chairman , that that's the case. There was one vacant position and it's not anticipated that that position requires to be filled . 695

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , there 's approximately $50,000 reduction in the salary now. I'm not objecting to that at all. I just wanted an explanation as how that came about, the $50,000. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Can I ask the Minister which is the appropriate

section to ask a question on the Physical Standards

Section . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: I'm sorry , I didn 't hear that question . MR. WALDING: Which is the appropriate

section to ask a question on the Physical Standards Section? MR. ENNS: It would be appropriate to ask it under this one, I'm advised. MR. WALDING: Thank you. And which

section for the Moto r Vehicle Inspection Program? Would that be under safety? MR. ENNS: Under (7)(

c) entitled Safety . MR. WALDING: I then ask my question under the Physica l Standards Section? Is there any "' mandatory age that a driver would be called in for a medical exam ination and/or driving test? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised for a person who is holding the more genera l license classification from one to four the answer is yes, there is a periodic requirement to recall for inte r v i 1 ~ w and/or rechecking of the licensee 's capabilities of operat ing vehicles under those licence classification . Under Class 5 I'm advised that that is not the case.

However , the department is oft en called upon , all too often , very often by close members of the family to indeed contact say a person of some age to come in and to be talked to be counsellors under this program. MR. WALDING: Then there is no automatic call for a person of a certain age or on attaining a certain birthday to get a physical examination or to submit him or herself for a driving test? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , part of the branch 's activity is to monitor the driving habits of all tl1e drivers and as information is received either by way of rate of accidents or other reports that would indicate that there needs to be a re-examination of a person the member is correct, there is not a mandatory requirement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I don 't wish to be out of order . I wanted to peruse some of the points that were made in the written report of the Minister and I believe that that would be in order under Management Service.

What I'd like to do is just review the figures that are outlined in the report which I find inte resting and revealing . First, the indication that during 1977 there was a four percent growth rate of licensed vehicles , six percent growth rate insofar as registrations were concerned , a 33 percent increase in snowmobile registrations and an indication that accidents increased by eight percent and injury accidents increasing by four percent and then an indication that there 's been a 15 percent increase in respect to convictions under the Criminal Code relating to liquor , drinking and driving.

Now , arising from those figures, then I wonder if in fact this is correct , that despite these increases of registered drivers and vehicles and accidents that we in fact do witness a decrease of three percent in the number of suspended drivers during that same period of time according to this report. Am I correct that that is the case? Then I suppose my question is an obvious one and that is, is there any explanation that despite what appears to be an increase in the number of drivers and vehicles and accidents and convictions, we're witnessing a decrease in the number of suspended drivers? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman , the regulations that call for the automatic suspension of a person 's 696 ...

Thursday, March 8, 1979 driving privileges are fairly clearly set out and I think understood. The point I was trying to make, the relationship between the number of accidents need not be parallel in precisely that way. In other words, and/or convictions if they're spaced properly. In fact we could have an increase in the number of first offenders, if you want to put it that way, that would not call for the automatic licence suspension . I am also advised by the Registrar that in some areas there has been increases in the numbers of licences suspended; in other areas, decreases.

I provided these figures; I believe it's my responsibility to do so, in the interests of having the members aware of the activities of the department. There has always been a - and I would be the first one to acknowledge it - there is always some danger, in terms of the too literal translation of some of the increases or decreases. I note particularly , for instance, the rather surprisingly large increase in the number of snowmobiles registered this year.

That is perhaps more accountable simply because of the fact that we had more snow in the year '77 and the year '76 was a particularly poor year for snow and that if you ask the distributors and the sales people involved in the snowmobile industry they would be quick to point out that , you know, you don't have much snow, you don't sell too many new snowmobiles and subsequently we don't have too many new registrations that year. If you go a year back , there was an actual decrease in the snowmobile registrations.

The year that we're now talking about we've had a more normal snowfall and that activity was increased quite a bit . It looks very dramatic to say a 38 percent increase in the number of snowmobile registrations. I just point that out to the honourable member. But the conclusions that he draws are his to be drawn in any way he sees fit. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to particularly draw conclusions, only to wonder if there is any explanation because the pattern is there: more drivers, more vehicles , more accidents.

Yet an indication of a decrease in the number of suspensions. And I know that statistics and figures can be misleading, but the pattern would seem to imply and rationally one would assume that there would be an increase in suspensions that would be consistent with the other increases. MR. ENNS: The Registrar of the Motor Vehicles Branch assures me that there has been absolutely no change made in terms of when, and under what conditions, driving privileges are suspended.

He also informs me that there has been an increase, for instance , under the suspensions that follow criminal conv ictions , particularly alcoho l-related offences under The Criminal Code of Canada, which calls for automatic suspension of driving licences. There has been a decrease - if the Leader of the Opposit ion refers to Page 2 of that report - under the items 2, 3 and 4, for instance. Which were also reasons for suspension of driving privileges.

The mere failure to pay a fine, the cancellation of probationary licences would indicate a higher approval of probationary licences that were issued and then allowed to full remission . I perhaps could ask the Registrar can be break down that accident figure in terms of the suspens ions related to, say, for instance , the Criminal Code? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital on a point of order. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this particular Committee of Supply is distinct from many other committees; it's only the Minister who is permitted to answer questions of members. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The point of order well taken . We will refer the question to the Honourable Minister and he can relay the answer . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I certainly don't wish to break the rules of the Supply Committee . I am advised by Mr. Dygala that the increase in the Criminal Code offences related directly to the increase in the number of offences, on top of the page where I indicate that some 7,229 related to drinking and driving was in fact a 15 percent increase over the previous year. I am advised that there was a corresponding increase in the number of drivers licences suspended for this reason.

However, a corresponding reduction in the number of drivers' licences suspended for reasons of failure to pay fines and, item No. 3, cancellation of probationary licences leads us to the conclusion that perhaps people driving under probationary circumstances are driving more cautiously and considerately, and avoiding suspension. MR.

PAWLEY: Could I ask the Minister if present ly - I don't think it has to do with the material time in question here - but if the diff iculty that the Department of the Attorney-General is now conf ronted with in that there has been acknowledged inability on their part to serve warrants arising 697

Thursday, March 8, 1979 from failure to pay fines , whether or not we do face now a situation in which licences are not be1ing suspended that ought to be suspended, because of the breakdown in the particular chain of the administration of justice , the failure to serve warrants upon those that fail to pay fines in many of our rural provincial judges ' courts at the present time? MR. ENNS: We have not the available data on the year '78 or the period that the honourable member is now referring to. These figures and these statistics report the situation as they were for the year ending '77 . MR.

PAWLEY: Does the Minister sense a particular trend in rural areas where there appears to be no record of suspensions arising from failure to pay a fine due to the fact that these warran ts are not being served presently? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman . I'd rather believe that rural people , when so fined , promptly pay their fines , knowing the character of the average rural person .

I also know , in readi ng the Attorney-General 's reports , I believe on the number of fines that are levied against rural persons in proportion to our city cousins is inordinately high, and that ment ion has been made note of from time to time in the House when I believe the Liquor Commission 's Annual Report comes out . No, in direct answer to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition , I can 't indicate that we have noti c:ed any particular trend . Again , I have to say that these figures relate to the year completed , the yt~ar '77 . MR.

PAWLEY: Would the Minister be prepared to review the 1978 situation , due to the fact that there is this acknowledged difficulty or problem, apparently , in serving warrants in many instances where I assume that warrants ought to be served in order to enforce court judgments? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I am quite prepared and the Registrar is prepared to, as we draw this year to conclusion and can examine our read-outs , i n many cases now computerized read -outs , we would be in a position to indicate whether or not there is reason for concern on the part of the Motor Vehicle Branch in carrying out its function and its responsibilities in this particular area. MR.

PAWLEY: Yes, the difficulty is if a Branch of government is unable , due to a breakdown in a particular notarial area of importance then it has a spill-o ver into othe r Branches and there is very little the Motor Vehicles Branch could do, given that situation , in the Department o the Attorney-General.

I would like to ask if the Min ister can assure me - because I am concerned about this decrease despite these figures showing increases in every other category - if the Minister can assure rne that insofar as juveniles are concerned and their convictions in Juvenile Court, that all the records of conviction are in fact being transmitted from the Juvenile Courts to the Motor Vehicles Branch . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I am advised that in that particular area we do not receive the records and the convict ion notice of juvenile offenders . Mr.

Chairman , it's a question that I suppose the Honourable Leader of the Opposition may wish to raise with the Attorney-General. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Chairman , the response of the Minister is most disconcerning because referen ce has been made - I understand very much the problem Mr.

Dygala faces and I thought this problem had maybe been wrest led with successfully because I think it goes back a number of years · that certainly there would be a reduction in the cancellation of probationary licences, a reduction if in fact the records are not being transmitted, because where the cancellation of probationary licences should take place is, insofar as a young motorist just starting out with his licence , and if convictions in Juvenile Court covering those 16 to 18 are not being transmitted then what means does the Motor Vehicles Branch have, in that case, to remove a juvenile from the highway that is involved in a conviction in the court , and nd yet the Motor Vehicles Branch receives no notification from the court as to that conviction?

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that this is a matter of concern to the Motor Vehicle Branch . However , it's a matter that has been with us for some time . It's not something that has resulted . . . something that has just happened in the last little while , certainly not just in the last 15 mont hs. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition is undoubtedly indicating a particular area that deserv es attention and resolution . 698

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. PAWLEY: I want to just ask the Minister a further question. I had understood that in the past one provincial judge - I won 't go into names here - had taken a very strong position that records of juveniles should not be made available to the Motor Vehicles Branch. I had thought, though , that other provincial judges were not tak ing that position. Am I to understand that all the provincial judges now are taking the posit ion that the records of juveniles ought not to be transmitted to the Motor Vehicles Branch? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I am advised that it's not a clear picture, in terms of how the judiciary responds to this situation . There is the position that some take that it is federal legislation involved in terms of the Juvenile Delinquent Act, and , as such, some justices do not co-operate in sending records and other information over to Branches such as the Motor Vehicle Branch . The Honourable Leader refers to a particular justice in a provincial bench.

I am advised that there is not a cut-and-clear situation there either ; there is co-operation in this area in this respect from some but not from others, and there is not a clear pattern or a clear directive oviously, that is being given or pursued by the justice . MR. PAWLEY: Has the Minister held any meetings with the Attorney-General in an attempt to resolve this? MR. ENNS: No, Mr.

Chairman , not as yet , but it's a point that I think is worthwhile and demonstrates one of the reasons , why examinations of the Estimates that allow us to go into the actual operations of different branches of government , precisely in the way that we're now doing it, why the exercises is worthwhile. I recognize and there has been a continuing area from time to time of concern between the Motor Vehicle Branch and/or some form of the judiciary. We have a concern, Mr.

Chairman , that I don 't mind voicing that after we have suspended drivers for what we think to be every reasonable and good and just ifiable and defensible cause , and that being sustained, that suspension , by our own Driver Licence Suspension Appeal Board, after having given the affected person a hearing or an appeal opportunity , tha t when that same person then , who still has a further right to appeal it to the County Courts, all too often these considerat ions, that have been exercised and made by (

a) the Motor Vehicle Registr ar in the fir st instance , supported by the Driver Licence Suspension Appeal Board and then we find them reversed all too often in the County Court system . And that is an area of concern to us because we feel that our system of keeping non-desirable drivers ' with poor behaviour records as far as thei r d riving is concerned , off our highways. I don 't raise that to detour the Honourable Leader of the Oppositions off from his present line of question ing.

I'm just simply indicating that there has been and there continues to be some area of concern with the Attorney -General 's Department , if you like, or with the general justice system , that calls for - and I would certainly undertake to have those kind of discussions or meetings with the Attorney -General in the hope of some resolution .

I might add in the matter that I have just mentioned, with respect to the County Courts, this Minister has made a recommendation to Cabinet and to the government to consider the advisability of whether or not what we consider to be the second appeal , to the County Court system , is indeed necessary in terms of how we hand le the suspended driver. MR. PAWLEY: I want to avoid the Minister getting me into the second area of discussion because I would like to make some observations there as well.

But insofar as the first area, I think it really is a much bigger problem than the second because - and I would like to say to the Minister, he certa inly has I believe I can say, the support of Opposition, with what I think to be a very unfortunate situation .

Unfortunate from the point of view of the juvenile driver, that they receive a licence, that that licence is interpreted as a right rather than a privilege , that a conviction can occur and yet the record of that convict ion not be forwarded to the Motor Vehicles Branch, so that sooner or later the juvenile may end up in difficulty from serious accident, while it's possible that if the transmittal of the record had been forwarded earlier to the Moto r Vehicles Branch the juvenile 's licence might have been lifted earlier during a probationary period.

And I just can't understand really the position of the jud iciary because by forwarding the record to the Motor Vehicles Branch the Branch is not publicizing the record, the name of the juvenile is not furnished to the world at large , but it certain ly would be the exercise of insuring that a juvenile driver is treated the same way as an adult driver. Now, if I could proceed from there unless the Minister wants to comment further on that to the second point.

I want to ask the Min ister to be just a little bit careful in his suggestion that he is tempted to take away the right of appeal from the board to the court.

Whereas on the first position 1 must say that I take a much more str ingent attitude then I do in respect to the second. For this very 699

Thursday, March 8, 1979 reason . I know of a particular case where a young linesman appeared befo re the Licence Suspen sion Appeal Board , with a minimal record , and failed to obta in the reinstatement of that licence . The young linesman , who lives some miles out in the country from his place of employment and had to use a Hydro truck in order to drive about from one farm , one commun ity to the other , would certainly have lost his employment except that he was able to make an app licat ion to the court. The court reinstated his licence , overruling the decis ion of the board. And I think that there are cases where maybe that the board from time to time become s ov•erly rigid. In that

part icular case, the record was not so serious th at the cour t felt that the driver crea1ted '- a hazard on the road during work period and where the drive r had in fact infringe d the law he had been pleasure driving . Now, if you take away the right of appeal in an instance like that and other instances that I've heard of, then there 's no opportunit y for justice to be conside red in instances where it ought to be considered because a board can become very rigidif ied and I'm not spea king of the present board, I'm speaking of previous boards .

So that I urge the Minister to be very , v ery careful because there are a lot of working people in this P rovince who never would get into any trouble during their working hours of driving a vehicle . And you take away that right of appeal and working people are going to be thrown out of a job and you r welfa re rolls and your unemploy ment ~ insurance payments load is going to be, I think , increased significantly .

So I want to ask the Minister whether in fact he was really suggesting to us that he would eliminate the right of appeal entirely from the Licence Suspension Appeal Board 's ruling in his discussions with the Attorney-Genera l he made reference to earlier ? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , this Minister is very much aware that in our society today the privilege of driving is a very important one , an importan t one to the economic well-being of many of our citizens.

In those circumstances that he relates , taking away that privilege often means a very serious hardship and a very serious dislocation of a family or of a breadwinner or of the persons , individuals capability of holding on to an otherwise worthwhile job . I point out that the suspension of a driver's licence doesn 't come overnight ; it's usually earned , and it doesn 't happen from one isolated case, and that the appeal mechanism is there , i s set-up in the form of the Licence Suspension Appeal Board .

The sugges tions that I made , and the re's no suggestion that the appeal from that Appeal Board 's ruling should not be continued to be allo wed to the County Court through the courts system.

The suggestion that I have forwarded to the Attorney-General for consideration is that when that person , after having perhaps been gra nted a conditional licence by an Appeal Court , by the County Court overturning or remitting a suspension by the Branch , when he, for the second time around , causes reason , because of his record , t o have his licence suspended again , keeps on going bac k to the County Court system and unfortunately , the records indicate a very high degree of remiss ion. Now, I'm only putting that in its proper context.

On the other hand , this Department , this Branch , gets criticized by the media and people at large for allowing persons back on the road that in their judgement have no business being on the road , for endangering the lives in the community in general by not more rigidly enforcing the suspension of driving privileges from persons who have a record that is long and is wide , that would choke a horse . That 's the conflict that the Department finds itself under .

Now , the law is there to work out the differences and the comprises that have to be made , recognizing how serious the removal of driving privileges is in today 's society from any individual. 1 want to make that point and ask the Honourable Member whether or not , after having a person 's full rights and limits of appeal process assured , including the court system, but who then goes on and proceeds to add to his record and demonstrates in a manner that he is not prepared to change his driving habits, where does the responsibility of this Department , of this Branch , and / or government or society , where does it step in to suggest that that person ought not to be able to drive on our streets and highways and endanger the lives of our fellow citizens?

MR. PAWLEY: I have no objection if you wish to define more clearly , the guidelines by which the courts should operate insofar as the reinstatement of the drive r' s permi t. I do want to warn the Minister though against removing the right ff appeal from a board , a government board , or commission to the court. I think that should be done only rarely , under exceptional circumstances .

If you wish to define the guidelines more , then I would think that that would be something worthy of consideration, but it would seem to me to be rather paradoxical , the present system , if a juven ile's record is not transmitted to the Motor Vehicles Branch so that the suspension doesn 't take place there because of a lack of record . On the other hand , the working motorist , his record is transmitted to the Motor Vehicles Branch and as a result of his information being made available , he loses his licence and sometimes losing his ability to earn bread for his family ,

whereas the juvenile may have gone through the same pooc:ess 700

i Thursday, March 8, 1979 without any suspension taking place in the first instance. MR ENNS: Mr . Chairman , let me say very clearly that I welcome the support of the Leader of the Oppos ition and his group in any attempt that we ought to make to resolve this problem . I recognize it, and I think in the same light that he recogn izes it. I don 't think that there 's any question that the senior staff at the Motor Vehicles Branch don 't recognize it in a similar way and would like to see a resolution to the problem.

On the other matter , I think we've had a discussion on it and I will accept the Leader 's advice and cautio n about removal of any add itional rights of appeal. I must point out that we are the only jurisdiction in Canada where those rights exist. No other Province enables a motorist, once suspended , to go to the courts . No other Province enables that person to go to the courts for reconsideration of driv ing priv ileges, and we are one of the few Provinces, jurisdictions, that has an Appea l Board .

I'm advised that in most jurisdictions the actions taken within the Department, that is by the automatic suspension , by the Registrar or the equivalent of the Registrar of the Motor Vehicles Branch , is final. There is no appeal, anywhere . That's how seriously some other jurisdictions take the business of insuring to the maximum extent possible the exclusion of the driving privileges to those who have demonstrably demonstrated their unwillingness to drive by the rules . MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed, I wonder if we could have the guidance of the committee . Are we under ?(

d) under The Licence Suspension Appeal Board, or do we want to continue it under Management Services? -(Interjection)- The Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Could the Minister advise me, in reference to conflict from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, if a motorist arriving in Manitoba from another jurisdiction , who has had his licence suspended in that jurisdict ion, whether upon his entry into Manitoba , then proceeds under the rights of Manitoba legislation and can proceed . toward appeal mechanism , or does he still bear the legislation from the province from whence he left? MR.

ENNS: I'm advised that he has no appeal in that instance . MR. PAWLEY: And the resident that leaves Manitoba to another province, neither does he have a right of appeal? MR. ENNS: The same situation applies . He, in fact by moving his residence , or leaving the province, loses his rights that are accorded to him here. MR.

PAWLEY: Has there been any discussion with his confreres at the Ministers of Highway meetings in connection with this very subject to ascertain if there is any way by which there can be some minimum structure established throughout Canada , dealing with the question of appeals from suspensions of licences? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , through the organization of the Ministers , or more appropriately, CCMTA Group, I won 't try to - Canadian Conference of Motor Transport Administrators , I'm told that stands for - have set up committees and are currently working at, it's an ongoing effort that involves the entire area of motor vehicle laws, regulations, but more specifically , particularly in the area of the issuance of driver 's licences, conditions under which they 're issued , the interchange of informat ion from one jurisdiction to another , there is some movement towards greater uniformity, and certainly , I think some movemen t toward the treating of offences in a more uniform way across the country .

The Registrar of the Motor Vehicle Branch, in discussion with him just recently, indicated that there needs to be a better , it needn 't be an elaborate system, but there needs to be a system that apparently , to some extent is already operational in the United States where the problem one would assume to be much greater , whereby at least information on suspended drivers is more freely passed between the various jurisdictions .

We don 't know, as it now stands, when a driver applies for a driver's licence here in Manitoba, who has recently come to us from Alberta or from Saskatchewan or Ontario , under what circumstances he is now applying for a new licence here. We don 't have the access to his status as a driver from the jurisdiction that he's left. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)

(1) Salaries , $873,300 - the Member for Ste. Rose. 701

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ADAM: I just wanted to make a short comment on the number of convictions having dropped from - we're talking about the overview now - from 88,800 to 88,600, and it doesn 't give a breakdown of the categories , whether that is snowmobiles . There are no snowmobile convictions? Pardon? MR. ENNS: They would be included . This is a general totalling of convictions . MR. ADAM: I was wondering if because of the statistics that are here before us, if the enfo rcement is indeed adequate .

In view of these statistics , we have an increase of 24,000 licensed drive rs and an increase of almost 40,000 vehicles , and a decreas e of 200 convict ions . And I'm just wond eri ng whether somehow either what my leader has raised , that the warrants are unable to be iss ed because of backlog in the courts, or is it because of enforcement they are not tak ing place . It' s not difficult , especially with snowmobiles . It doesn't matter where I drive , I can see infraction s all over the place from snowmobiles .

They 're just driving right and left across PR roads , provincial roads , and they 're just going right and left . Even last week when I went home I had occasion where I was driving on PR 276 and two snowmobiles snowballed across the highway just ahead of me. They never stopped . That is a clear infraction , you know . And I think probably there is a weakness in this area as far as enforcement is concerned. Perhaps that number , while it looks good , the decrease of accidents in snowmobiling , a decrease from 95 to 84, that's nice statistics but even if you can save one life, that is important.

I know that they are going all over the place and it's getting out of hand. I just wanted to make that comment. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm advised, I perhaps incorrectly indicated to the honourable member earlier that the snowmobile statistics are separate from these . These relate to traffic related offences and accidents , the snowmobile offences are separately listed and not shown in this. I can undertake to try and find out what those figures are for you when we next meet . MR. ADAM: The reason why I brought it up, because it does make reference to the snowmo biles at the bottom of Page 3. MR.

ENNS: We'll have that information for the member when next we meet . I appreciate the member 's concerns , what with the increase in the registrations in number of vehicles that they automatically assume that there should be an increase in convictions . I like to look at life a little bit more optimistically . I would like to think that I've managed to convince motorists to drive more carefully and to avoid the infractions of the law.

I would like to think that my colleagues and individual members have exerted leadership within their communities to ask all their constituents to drive within the rules and regulations of the law and that we needn 't necessarily be ringing our hands because we haven 't been able to nail more people . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a) - the Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I asked the Minister to explain the $40 ,000 or $50,000 reduction and I don't know whether I got an answer on that. MR. ENNS: That is as I explained earlier MR. ADAM: One less employee , is that . MR.

ENNS: No, the bigger portion of that is successful conclusion of the computerization of major aspects of the whole driver licensing program which in effect , over a period of time now has reduced by some five staff men, not necessarily in this year , there 's only one reduction here but it's a reduction in supplies and expenses and some staff components that were required when this work was being done manually . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(aX1) Salaries , $873,300 - pass; 7.(aX2) Other Expenditures $1 ,257,800- the Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Would this be the computer costs, Mr. Chairman?

We have a reduction in staff and an increase in Other Expenditures . Would that be the equipment , like , computer? MR. ENNS: The department has been engaged , in the last several years , in the design and the 702

Thursday, March 8, 1979 putting in place of the new computer system and what that has done, is, while there has been some corresponding reductions in some areas, there have been equally some corresponding increases in putting this relatively sophisticated equipment into place, is what the additional expenditure indicates , Mr. Chairman . MR. ADAM: This is not done by MTS, it's done by the Motor Vehicle Branch? MR. ENNS: We use the MTS computer system, we are totally tied into their system, but these are the charges relative to that use to the branch. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures $1,257,800-pass; 7.(b). MR. ENNS: Page by page, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)(a

(1) Salaries $623,700-pass; the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: There is again a decrease here and an increase on the second item. Could the Minister explain, and also could he advise when the next issue of plates will be available? When will we be providing a nice, new color to colour to look at? MR. ENNS: I'm advised by the Registrar of the Motor Vehicle Branch that that will depend on when the next election will be called, but it would appear that we will be replacing plates on or about the year 1981 or 1982. A MEMBER: Is it true they'll be blue? MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b) - the Honourable Minister . MR.

ENNS: I'm advised that in the commercial vehicle registration section, there have been three vacant positions that account for some of the decrease here. Some of them will be filled - no, I'm advised they will not be filled . I don 't know , and the Registrar will correct me, but it is possible that part of the reason for the reduction is that last year , I believe we introduced, or broadened the extent of the commercial registration to agents - not this year, next year - but that measure is being put in effect where up to now , for commercial licensing that was all done within the branch.

The members will know that there are agents of the Motor Vehicle Branch throughout rural Manitoba with whom you can register your vehicle ; they are now also being given the authority to license commercial vehicles as well. So the demand on the department here will lessen somewhat in terms of meeting that requirement. MR. ADAM: The sheet that we have before us on the staffing breakdown shows a vacancy of seven. Will these positions be filled? MR. ENNS: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that all but three will be filled. MR.

ADAM: Yes, could the Minister advise, if there have been new agencies, how many new agencies have been appointed? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , there is a kind of a continual turnover of these agents as people that have issued the licences before either move out of a community or change their residences or businesses, or indeed are deceased . There has been no expansion of the number of agencies as such, just the normal routine replacement of an agent when and where somebody leaves a particular area and a new agent is required . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

I think I got the Minister right that in 1980 the CT licence will be handled through Autopac . Is that what he said or did I infer that is a possibility? MR. ENNS: That is correct , Mr. Chairman. MR. McGREGOR: Well, that's a very encouraging sign. 703

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ENNS: It was made because more and more people within the farm community are requir ing this service and in an effort to make it a little easier for them to get that without necessitating a trip all the way into Winnipeg the ind ividual agents can now , in the different communities where there are now agents , the service will be made availabl e. MR. McGREGOR: Mr.

Chairman , I am sure that that will be appreciated in my area where the smaller firms with six or a dozen trucks do have to drive into Brandon to do that now, and I'm real happy to report to them as of next year they 'll be able to get it through the loca l agent. MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Members , I'd like to caution them if they would wait recognition from the Chair they will be recorded prope rly, if not the possib ility is there that they will not be recor ded . So if they would wait until they get recognized it will be a little easier for the recorder. The Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr.

Chairman , I would like to ask the Minister if he does anticipate expand ing the agencies the coming year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , we normally respond to requests that we receive . If somebody in a particular area, community or town will write to us or compla in to us about lack of service , a member of the Legislature , in carrying out his responsibilities , will call on the Minister 's office and indicate that people are being asked to drive an inordinate distance to get their vehicles licensed .

Under those circumstances we send out somebody to investigate the matter from the Branch and if we feel it 's a reasonable request we certainly comply . I th ink it's a desir able means. The agents do !: not receive a great deal of renumeration in this .

It does , though , reflect on the staff required within the department , and very often in association with, whether it's another insurance agency , an Autopac insurance outlet or in some instances perhaps just a businessman or what have you , depending on the nature of the situation , it works in conjunction with other work he is already doing of a public service type . Very often it can be a secretary or the Municipal Office performing this work , but there is no plan to greatly enlarge this . This is dependent entirely on - as the need is demonstrated we would provide an agent. MR.

ADAM: Yes, the Minister mentioned Autopac . He brought in that subject matter into his response. I'm just wondering if he could advise if he has any plans to remove the insurance part of the driver 's licence? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, I have not given that any consideration . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)

(1) Salaries - pass; 7.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures $3,168,000-pass - the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could advise is th is also computers , this increase; there is $168 ,000, approximately , there. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that there is some price increases involved here in the material required , paper . One of them is that we have to allow for the item that we just previously discussed, the costs involved in the commercial plate issuance to agents . That is the fee structure that is built into it.

From the over-view you will realize that there has been a fairly considerable growth in the number of CT plates that are now being issued , and we perceive that to go up and not down. But the major portion for the increase is, again , the cost of computerization . MR. CHAIRMAN: 7.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures $3, 168,000-pass; 7.(

c) Safety

(1) Salaries $2,087,100 - the Member for Ste . Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, in this area , we have 17 vacancies . Is this a seasonal layoff and these positions will be filled in the spring when the program gets under way? MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman, that essentially is the case . I am advised that they all will be filled but one . MR. ADAM: Could the Minister advise if there was any planned reduction of the safety driving course? Is there any planned reduction in the schools as far as driver training is concerned? 704

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, there is no planned reduction . We have recently just increased the amounts payable to instructors in the hope that we can continue to attract instructors. That's one of the areas of concern to the department. I would be remiss if I didn't indicate a concern to the honourable members that , by having increased the cost of the course from $29 to $40-$45 that we have a concern that in itself may cause a reduction in the number of students availing themselves of the course .

We think the increase is totally justifiable in terms of what similar courses are being offered in all other jur isdictions, with the exception of Saskatchewan . But in all other jurisdictions the cost of this kind of a course is considerably higher . I don 't wish to be premature in making further pronouncements. It would be my hope, however, that we would be able to provide some incentive for the taking of the course by provision of some recognition of having completed that course on the insurance ttre successful applicant then purchases .

I can indicate to the honourable members of the Committee that the Registrar of the Motor Vehicles Branch has, under my instructions, been in touch with the General Manager of MPIC and has been working together with the Minister responsible for MPIC to consider whether or not we cannot introduce a bonus , if you like , or a reduction in the insurance premium that we think is entirely justifiable to somebody who completes this course .

Our safety figures show that there is a marked improvement in the driv ing habits of those students and young drivers who have completed this course , and we think that from actuarial insurance reasons that there is every reason to offer that successful graduate of this course a savings on his insurance and that that savings, in effect , should offset or be substantial enough to offset the increased cost of the course that I mentioned at the outset of these remarks . MR. ADAM: This driver education program is open to every citizen of Manitoba; is that correct? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I wish I could say that. Unfortunately, it's again a question of geography of our province . That does n't make the program universal to that extent. It is certainly open to every school division in every area where there is sufficient interest shown and/or persons can be found to do the instructing . It' s available to every divi sion; it's available to every school , but I would be mislead ing if I indicated to you that in some of the remote and smaller communities that this course is in fact being offered . It' s regrettably a penalty that geography and population location puts us in. MR.

ADAM : Yes, the list shows 235 instructors , and the list for '78 show . . . Is that the instructors - 173? MR. ENNS: The 235 instructors referred to in the overview are not included at all in there . They are not cons idered departmental employee .. They are contract, if you want to call them, temporary term . Many of them are teachers, for instance. They agree to teach this course, which has a start and finish date , but are not permanent staff people within the department . So that they are not to be confused with the figures there . MR. ADAM: Where are the funds for that?

Where is the appropriation for paying these term employees? MR. ENNS: I am advised, Mr. Chairman , that they are under the item (c)

(2) Other Expenditures . MR. ADAM: Yes, there is a $50,000 reduction there . The Minister indicated just a few minutes ago that they were increasing the salaries to encourage more instructors to come into the program. Can the Minister explain? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the program was originally set up and designed that the course itself carried roughly 50 percent of the costs and, over the years, that has fallen out of whack and has cost the department increasingly more dollars , as we had to pay for the instructors and pay for other associated costs with the courses offered .

By increasing the per student ·contribution that reduces the necessary costs somewhat to the department and that is part of the reason for this reduction - not totally , but part of the reason . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. 705

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I have a couple of questions on this matter of driver education . I have a personal interest in it in that I have just recently paid the $45 for my eld13st son to take this course . Does that $45 go to the department to help offset the costs , or does it go directly to the Minister of Finance? MR. ENNS: I am advised , Mr. Chairman , that that $45 goes to the school and the school then, in effect, pays the instructors . We subsidize that cost and we subsidize the ent ire program to the tune of roughly 50 percent.

I think with the increase from $29 to $45 it is now back to about a 50-50 subsidizatio n, the stude nt paying 50 percent throug h the school and to the teacher , and we picking up the other 50 percent of it. It had gotten out of whack to about 70-30 , I suppose , prior to that increase . MR. WALDING: In the Ministe r' s discussion with MPIC about giving some sort of break to studen ts that have taken this course . Is the min ister considering some form of reduction on the insurance premium that is paid on the driver 's licence or the other part of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Speaker , we believe that it could possibly best be administered by reducing the insurance portion as it is now paid on the Driver 's Licence , in the sense that it would be applicable to all who successfully completed that course and apply and hold a driver 's licence . It's not necessarily that all would necessar ily have a car. Your son , and I hope he would complete that course and graduate successfully , or he has, I don 't know whether he necessarily has a car , you know .

But , let's take it in the instance that he didn 't have a car , but he was now a qualified dri ver, our interest is in recognizing the fact , that by having taken that course and having completed it successfully , we know that he will be a better driver . MR. WALDING: Can I ask the minister if he's given any thought to , instead of doing it in the form of a break on the dollar premium , whether he's given any thought to awarding such a successful driver maybe one or two merit points to be going on with . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I'm advised by the Registrar that they will get them automatically if they keep out of trouble . And , also , I must say, that their chances of keeping out of trouble are statistically considerably better than those who haven 't entertained that course , but , seriously , I think that this whole area is a matter of ongoing concern to the department and to me, personally . I would like , very much to move in this direction .

We have taken , I think , not just these dri vers , but with the introduction of the merit system last year , we have set in place , at least the framework for some further expansion or consideration of the thought that the Member from St . Vital expresses , that is, that ought not, you know , the good driver be recognized period , in some way and at some level , whether it is at the 3 merit points - which means that he has driven 6 years , continuous years, without any infraction of any rules .

I think , in my own mind, that that requires and should be noted, somehow , in a way that would encourage the maintenance of that kind of a driving record . I think the honourable member appreciates , though , that we are talking about involvement of other jurisdictions . We are talking about other people 's dollars and budgets, in this case, perhaps MPIC's , in terms of any premium reductions that might be offered as an incentive for good driving; that these negotiations obviously have to take place with other interested parties.

But I certainly want to leave the impression with the committee members , that it's a goal that the Motor Vehicle Branch wishes to pursue. MR. 'cHAIRMAN: The Member from St. Vital. MR. WALDING: I'm glad that the minister is actively pursuing this and I wish him well with it. The other matter 1 wanted to bring up with him was the Motor Vehicle Inspection Program. I assume what is being referred to here , is a program that's been in effect for several years , whereby , vehicles over a certain age are randomly selected for a safety check . Is this right? MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR.

WALDING: The paper here says that a total of 33 ,500 vehicles were inspected. I would like to ask the minister if this random selection process refers randomly to all vehicles or if it 's randomly within sections of different types of vehicles? 706

.. Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. ENNS: I'm advised that it is random in terms of passenger cars and trucks, general trucks . There are more stringent and codified inspection systems in place for such other public service vehicles, such as school buses which get their annual check from the department, and I believe, in addition to that , the school divisions maintain their own additional annual inspection or semi-annual inspection of say, the school buses.

Taxi cabs, for instance , come under a different set of regulations and are required for annual inspection, so that I think these inspections that we're referring to here, are truly at random. MR .. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I wanted then to refer to the heavy duty vehicles that are mentioned, specifically, in here and ask the minister what is meant by the term "heavy duty vehicles"? MR. ENNS: I'm told that they refer to the heavy duty trucks and/or the large public service buses, semi-trailers, etc. MR.

WALDING: Does the minister have any estimate of what percentage of the registered vehicles would be randomly selected in any year for this vehicle test? MR. ENNS: Well, 1 think the honourable member can do his arithmetic as quickly as I can do if we are checking some 33,000 to 35,000 vehicles and there are some 600,000 vehicles registered . MR. WALDING: But not all over 5 years old. MR. ENNS: I'm advised that we don't have the figures here, but will be more than happy to supply him with them when next we meet. MR.

WALDING: Is it likely to be in the range of 1, 2, 3 percent, as small as that , or perhaps , 5, 10 percent? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that it's somewhe re closer to the figure of 5 percent. MR. WALDING: I'm wondering if this term "heavy duty vehicles " would also refer to tanker trucks, trucks that might transpo rt hazardous or explosive or dangerous materials . What brings it to mind is an accident that happened in Spain last year, where a tanker truck loaded with gasoline or kerosene went out of control or there was some accident with it as it was passing a holiday camp.

Apparently the vehicle went across the road and plowed into a holiday camp and exploded and killed many , many people . I'm wondering if that type of vehicle , carrying those types of loads, are included in this or whether there are any extra or more regular safety checks on such vehicles or is the department or the branch giving any consideration to a more regular or a more comprehensive type of safety check of vehicles of this type? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm advised that, while they 're not specifically singled out, as such, they are included in the general inspect ion at random of heavy units or heavy trucks. There are additional efforts · made for inspection , though , that are carr ied out at our weigh scales, for instance, when these units which have to regularly pass through our weigh scales, are checked by branch inspectors.

I might add , though , in this particular case, there is a coming together of a national consensus of passing the kind of regulations that generally concern all citizens of, not just Manitoba, but Canada, about the movement of dangero us and highly inflammable mater ial and that through the Ministers' Conference that I attended last fall, there is, I think , every opportunity that we will have, with the cooperation of other provinces and the Federal Governmen t, some regulations or legislation in place , addressing itself to the problem that the honourable member raises . MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Member for St. Vital. 707

Thursday, March 8, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: If I may interject , Mr. Chairman, at this time , we, in our own way, and in the area of jurisdiction that we have, we are concerned as a branch about the increasing amount of liquid fertilizer - I can never pronounce the name of it properly , " anhydrous ammonia ," of which there has been some discussion in this legislature , particularly during the last Session , we're concerned about the amount of liquid fertilizer that is being moved around and in the manner .

The practi se is developing where farmers are towing 2 or 3 of these ahhydrous ammonia tanks behind what we consider to be, you know , in unsafe cond itions , when they tie them up, several of these tanke rs behind , say, a half-ton truck and then take off down our highways or provincial road systems , so that , it would be my hope that we will , during the course of this session , pass legislation , not restricting the practise , but setting down some guidelines and regulations as to how they can and ought to be transported.

Now, I know this is of concern to the farmers and to the rural members and that 's a matter that will be brought before the members , but I can indicate that , in that sense , in the area that the branch has some capability and responsibility for setting up the necessa ry regulations , we are actively consider ing that , hopefully for inclusion for the legislative package that will be before the House during this session . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I note from Page 3 of the paper , that 6 percent of those heavy duty vehicles inspected had serious defects.

Now, there were no details here as to what those serio us defects were , but it doesn 't require too much imagination to imagine a heavy duty vehicle loaded with an inflammable or explosive or radioactive or noxious gas, having some blowout or brake failure ~o or axle damage and causing all sorts of problems . Can the minister tell us whether he would favour some form of more stringent inspection of vehicles fall ing into that category? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , we are always concerned about the possibility or potential of kind of accidents or situations arising that the member is alluding to.

It' s a fact of life, however , that , again in the province such as Manitoba , gas has to be transported to many rural communit ies throughout the province . In the viability of our agricultural community there 's going to be fert iliZElrs and ch~micals moved throughout the length and breadth of this province.

I think we have to, in a continuing way, be looking at how we can, without interfering unduly in the necessary movement of these goods or without adding , you know, unnecessary expense and cost to the movement , because , in many instances , these are prett y important to everyday living goods that are being transported and moved . If we devise a system that is so prohibitive and so expensive, say, in the movement and the capability of providing heating fuel to a northern community or to a r ural community , that cost is going to be passed on to somebody .

I think we will attempt with com mon sense and with development of technology, as it's being developed here and in other parts of the country , and indeed in other countries , try to apply them in a way that meets the concerns that the member expresses. MR. CHAIRMAN: (cX1)-pass - - The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, I would like to make a comment on the road tests - driver-testing administered last year and the failure rate seems to be quite alarming. The first attempt was 33 percent.

There was another category , a failure rate range from 41 percent in the higher classes, reflecting that drivers in this category require more skill and knowledge to an overall average of 25 percent for all drivers . And this would indicate to me that there is an area here , a very gray area where we should be looking more seriously at - you know , I'm wondering how many in this room would pa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-16b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 16b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	47d7cab398e0af61f26dd3c1ae2c33799a352163

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