Volume XLI Thursday PROPERTY 01• NF.\VFOU:-IDLi'.tiD LEGISLATiVE LIBRARY PLEASE RETURN Province of Newfoundland FORTY-FIRSTGENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 22 --- 29 June 1989

The House met at 2:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! Statements by Ministers DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am pleased to announce today that the Province is now proceeding to the implementation stage with a major . project previously approved under the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Development Fund, namely the Marine Offshore Simulator Training and Research Centre. This Research Centre is a $12.8 million project which will be built as an extension to the Institute of Fisheries and Marine Technology in St. John 1 s.

It will include the most technologically advanced shiphandling simulator in the world as well as a ballast control simulator, both of which will help strengthen the Ins ti tu te 1 s reputation as a world class marine training and applied research centre . This facilitiy will enable the Marine Institute to provide basic and advanced training in a variety of marine and offshore environments and will position Newfoundlanders to compete more effectively on a national and international level for offshore related employment.

Enhancement of safety in the offshore L113 3 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI environrnE:~nt was a major factor in support oF this project . In partic~lar, the acquisition of a ballast control simulator addresses a major recommendation oF the royal cotmnisssion on the Ocean Ranger Marine Disaster that offshore drilling personnel be exposed to this type of training wherever possible.

Recent international shipping disasters such as those which occurred in Alaska and off the coast of Maine are direct testaments to the need for greater and more sophisticated training in this area as a whole, and I am pleased to inform all han. members of this House that the new facility to be established will play a significant role in meeting these needs on an international basis. The Centre will also f~cilitate applied research relevant to offshore operations, including handling and anchoring techniques associated with floating production platforms.

Finally, I should mention that this proposal will give Canada its first full-mission bridge and ballast control marine simulator. This facility is expected to dominate the world market for many years by virtue of its technologically advanced features. Today, Mr. Speaker, the Province officially awarded the principal contract for this projector, involving the supply and installation of the simulation equipment, to a consortium of companies led by Krupp Atlas Elektronik Ltd. of Germany at an approximate value of $10 million. This was the lowest bid received for this project and I am pleased to advise the han.

House that Newfoundland firms will form a major and important part of the consortium, with a minimum of 45 No. 22 (Afternoon) R1133

per cent of the work to be directed to 12 local companies led by the BAE Group. This work has an estimated value of $4.2 million. Substantial new technology pertinent to the marine simulation industry will also be transferred to Newfoundland firms which, in turn, will position them to capture future 1 High·- Tech 1 work of this nature. Krupp Atlas Elektronik Ltd. is among the world 1 s leaders in the marine simulation industry and their expertise and track-record in maximizing local technology transfer and other industrial benefits augurs well for the Newfoundland firms involved. In

summary, Mr. Speaker, the establishment of this Centre will result in the provision of education, training and applied research capabilities of international stature and will further strengthen the Province 1 s reputation as a centre of excellence in ocean science and technology. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . First of all, let me thank the minister for providing us with a copy of his statement beforehand. We certainly appreciate it.

Let me add, as well, that the minister is in a position to make this welcomed announcement today for two reasons: First of all, because there was a Canada-Newfoundland Offshore agreement and, secondly, because the prE!Vious government decided Ll134 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI that this new technology should bE· brought to Newfoundland and Labrador under the agreement. It is a very lAJelcomed statement, Mr. Speaker, and we arP. delighted that the contract has been awarded and we are delighted, as well, to see so llluch Newfoundland content.

Forty-five per cent of the net worth of this contract is rnade up of Newfoundland firms, which means that not only will there be employment for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians generated as a result of the project, but, more importantly, or equally as important, there will, perhaps, be a transfer of technology from Germany, in this particular case, to Newfoundland and Labrador. We are delighted that the contract has been awared under the Canada-Newfoundland offshore agreement. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to refer the han. the Premier to

Section 4, subsection (3) of The Conflict Of Interest Act . For the benefit of the Premier, since he likes to ensure that you do not just paraphrase things, I would 1 ike to read that particular section. It says the following, Mr.Speaker: 11 Subject to subsections (9) 11 - which has to do with the confidentiality of information provided - 11 and ( 10) 11 - which No. 22 (Afternoon) Rl134

allows the Cabinet, the government, to make regulations, Mr. Speaker: 11 Subj ect to subsections (9) and (10), a disclosure statement by a Member or public employee shall specify each and every interest required to be specified therein by subsection (9) 11 - which is the

section we dealt with yesterday - 11 and each and every other interest which, to his knowledge, such Member or public employee, his spouse or any of his minor children has or will acquire as a result of which there is a possibility of a conflict between such interest and his position as a Member or public employee, including, but without limiting the generality of the foregoing, any financial interest which such Member or public employee, his spouse or any of his minor children has in any company, firm, or body which has done, does or might do business with the Government ... 11 Then, just in case this

Section of the Act is not clear, Mr. Speaker, it goes on to define what 'interest' is. 111 Interest' includes 11 - let me refer the hon. the Premier to

Section (

c) of that

Section - 11 any loan made by the Member or public employee to any such company, firm or body and any other indebtedness no matter how secured of such a company, firm or body to the Member or the public employee. 11 Now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask the Premier this: In view of the fact that the Minister of Health (Mr. Decker) disclosed in his conflict of interest statements that he owns 98 per cent of Roddickton House, and in view of the fact that there exists a mortgage between Roddickton House and Caudelle Manor Limited, is the Ll13 s June 29, 1989 Uol XLI minister not directly in violation of this particular

section of fhe Conflict Of Interest Act? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: No, Mr. Speaker, not in my judgement, but that is not a final answer on it . I do not have the ultimate answer to everything. The Act is fairly precise. The minister has disclosed his ownership interest in the company. the shares are listed. fhe mortgage to which the han. the Leader of the Opposition refers is registered, it is a matter of public record in the Registry of Deeds. I assume that is where the hon. the Leader of the Opposition got a copy of it.

He would have no trouble going and looking to the Conflict of Interest Statement filed by the han. minister and seeing that he owns shares in some company called Roddick ton House Limited. Let us see what Roddickton House Limited owns in property - no trouble, go search the Registry of Deeds, and he sees all of the registered financial interests. It is there to be seen so there is no failure to disclose. And in terms of the precise wording of the Section, there is no problem with it. The member has disclosed everything that he has. fhe company has a financial interest in a mortgage.

It is interested in having its mortgage debt repaid, the company that the minister owns 98 per cent of the shares of. That company has a mortgage given by another company which does business with the company. That

Section does not require the member to name the mortgage specifically, not in any manner. I have also sought other legal advice on it and that has been confirmed. So I have no No. 22 (Afternoon) R1135

quarrE!l with it . MR . RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, this is unbelievable. MR . SPEAKER: Order! The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: The Premier so piously preaches right, and we have to do things right. Well, here is a law of the land saying that a loan made by any individual - I just read out the section. PREMIER WELLS : What individual? MR. RIDEOUT: In this case thE• Minister of Health, I say to the Premier. And when is the Premier going to demand that the Minister of Health disclose his interest in this company as he should under the law of the land? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: The Leader of rant and rave cannot change act. MR. RIDEOUT : It is the law. PREMIER WELLS : the Opposition all he wants, the wording of can he the Yes, it is thE! law. It is clearly the law, and if the minister is in breach the minister will be charged the same as the han. the Leader of the Opposition would be charged if he were in breach. If Lll36 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI there is a lE!gal opinion that. he is in breach, I have no quarrel with it.

He has to answer for it the same as everybody else does, and that applies to me, it applies ·to the Leader of the Opposition, it applies to the Speaker, it applies to every minister in this House. And if I fail to comply with the law in my reporting, I must anslAJer. MR. RIDEOUT : He answers to you as a minister . What are you going to do about it? PREMIER WELLS : IF he has not been in breach, I am not going to do anything. If he has been in breach of it, and is charged or found to be in breach of it - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT : Who decides that?

PREMIER WELLS: Not by the determination of the Leader of the Opposition, because he can rant and rave all he wants, he does not change the wording of the act. And I will read the wording of the act. The wording of the act is very clear. MR. RIDEOUT: Just r·ead it. PREMIER WEI LS: He read it and thE!n he misinterpreted it . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMS: You are going to read it and interpret it, too. PREMIER WELLS : No. 22 (Afternoon) R 1136

No, no. The courts are the ones who will determine it. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I gave the Leader of the Opposition a lot of leeway in asking the question, and I understand there were no interruptions over here. He as ked the question and now I think the Premier should be afforded the same courtesy with the answer. The han. the Premier . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I say to the Leader of the Opposition it is open to him to walk down to the poli.ce station now and lay an information. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Please do so.

If you feel you are right, you have that right, do it, exercise it. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Stop trying to smear people unfairly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. TOBIN : What did you do to John Collins? MR. MATTHEWS: Lll37 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI What a hypocrite. PREMIER WELLS: We told the truth about it . Now the financial interest which must be reported under

Section 3, is the financial interest owned by the member. The member has filed in his return that hE! OlAJnS 98 pE:~r cent - MR. RIDEOUT: Or company. PREMIER WELLS : No, no, no. MR . RIDEOUT: Yes .

PREMIER WELLS: I tJJill read it. 11 Subject to subsections (9) and '(10), a disclosure statement by a Member or public employee shall specify each and every interest required to be specified therein by subsection (9) and each and every other interest, which to his knowledge, such Member or public employee, his spouse or· any of his minor children has or will acquire as a rE!SUlt of which 11 - now this is the minister will acquire 11 there is a possibility of a conflict between such interest and his position as a Member or public employee, including but without limiting the generality of the foregoing, any financial interest with such Member or public employee 11 ·- now this is a member - 11 his spouse or any of his minor children has in any company 11 - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS : Just a minute. Let me finish now. - 11 which has done .. 11 No. 22 (Afternoon) Rl137

Now, the company, firm or body which has done business t;..Jith the government is Claudelle Manor. The minister owns no interest in Claudelle Manor. His interest is in Roddickton House. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Do not be so foolish . MR. RIDEOUT: A $75,000 mortgage . PREMIER WELLS: You can rant and rave and shout if you wish. but there is the proper answer to it. If the han. the Leader of the Opposition has any level of confidence in the aspersions which h.:~ is casting on the han. minister. then I invite him to go to the nearest police station and lay an information and let the courts decide . SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker, let me say to the PrE!mier that the Chief of Police did not put the member For the Strait of Belle Isle in Cabinet, the Premier did, and it is up to the Premier to deal with it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. RIDEOUT : If I want questions asked of the Chief of Police. bring him before the bar of the House and we might do that that way. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say to l:he Premier. since this company.

Claudelle Manor Ltd .. in which the Minister of Health has a financial L1138 June 29. 1989 Vol XLI interest as defined by the act, does business with the governmE!nt to the tune of $12,640 a month, does the Premier consider that to meet his standard of conduct and does he consider that to live up to his billing, that not even a potential conflict of interest can exist under his leadership? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker. if the han. the Leader of the Opposition had stated the facts accurately. I would say yes.

But the minister does not have a financial interest in Claudelle Manor Ltd. He has the financial interest in Roddickton House Ltd. and he has reported that and filed it on his conflict of interest statement. Any member of the media. any membE:~r of the public. any mE!mber of the Opposition. as the Leader obviously did, can go to the Registry of Deeds and search and see what deeds or lands or any other interests there are, and it is open to him to do that.

If I thought for one minute that what the Leader of the Opposition i s s a y i n g i s rig h t , I wo u 1 d go to the police station and have an information laid. MR. SIMMS : All you have to do is flick him out. PREMIER WELLS : I invite the member to do it . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 22 (Afternoon) R1138

The hon. the Leader oF the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT: To the Premier : Since every taxpayer's dollar, all $151,680 in a twelve month period, is paid directly by the Department of Health to a company in which the Minister of Health has a financial interest, a $75,000 financial interest, and therefore that $75,000 interest has been repaid partly out of taxpayers' money, does the Premier still agree with his minister that to allege that a conflict of interest is apparent is, to quote him, 'to stretch the imagination'? Does the Premier agree with that assessment? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, the thing that is wrong in what he says is saying the minister has a financial interest in Claudelle Manor. His financial interest is in the company, Roddickton House Ltd. Now, he owns 75 per cent of that company, and the company sold its senior citizens' home to Claudelle Manor, and Claudelle Manor did not have adequate money, apparently, to pay the full purchase price, so it agreed to pay it over a period of time. When I invited the minister to join the Cabinet, the minister told me of this. I would sooner that it was not there. Does it put him in conflict?

Does it make it impossible for him to do his tasks? MR. TOBIN: Yes! {es! Yes! PREMIER WELLS : No, I do not think so. The members, when they sat over L1139 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI here, said it was alright For Dr. Collins to hold a 25 per cent interest in Terra Nova Investments, and not only let. the existing lease run out or let the existing mortgage be paid that existed prior, but to continue to negotiate new leases wi t.h the government. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: The same members sitting opposite, not only did they say it was alright to let it run out, which is what they are now complaining about, but it is alright to re-negotiate again. The same members opposite put forward their bold new standard. In June of last year the then Premier, Mr. Peckford, announced and tabled their new standard. Now they are going to change it.

Not only could the ministers, by their new standard, do it with the approval of the Premier, it was alright for any minister to be in a Cabinet and have the Cabinet do business with a company in which the minister had a ~9 per cent interest, as long as the minister did not have control. That is their standard. I say that is not the right standard, and that is why it should be changed. This is the standard that is in the new draft legislation that was tabled in June of last year, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Speaker. what has happened with the Minister of Health, with the Minister of Justice, with the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, and with myself, all of us are in the process of disposing of all of the financial No. 22 (Afternoon) Rl139

interests we have so 'that there cannot be any. This has been mad e clear to the public. The interests have been made clear. Everybody knows what they were . Everybody knows what my financial interests were, it was debated at length in the House, but I am still disposing of them because it is just too big a nuisance to sit and listen and be berated constantly by the hon. members opposite trying to score cheap political point s, at which they are failing in an abject way . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hE!ar! MR . RIDEOUT : Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: ThE! hon. the Leader of the Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, what is obvious today to every Newfoundlander and Labradorian is the double standard, the Walking Contradiction, the Premier. That is what is obvious. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: It was wrong when he was over here but now he is over there it is alright.

Let me ask the Premier, since every time the government increases the per patient subsidy to those personal care homes, the government is in effect making more secure the financial investment of the Minister of Health, can the Premi er tell the House whether he is prepared to tolerate that kind of blant~nt abusE! of The Conflict Of Interest Act? Ll14-0 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: ThE! hon . - the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker, the new government carne in less than eight weeks ago now - it will be eight weeks tomorrow - to breathe new life into Newfoundland, and new expectations. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : It was inevitab le that it will take a few weeks or a few months or, in the case of the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture (Mr. Flight), prospectively even a year and a half, but he himself put a three limit on it, to divest of these interests. What they cannot do is continue or renegotiate or replace, or increase those interests . They have got to be let peter out . What would the hon. members opposite have the member do for Windsor - Buchans do? Burn the building so that he gets rid of it, if he cannot sell it? MR. RIDEOUT : According to your standard, yes .

PREMIER WELLS : That does not make any sense. Should the Minister of Health tear up the mortgage or just let it peter out, or try and sell it at the earliest possible chance? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Yes, according to your standard . PREMIER WELLS : They are living up to my standard, the same standard that I a sked th e former Premier to deal tJJi th with respect to Dr. Collins, rE!quire the minister to dispose of the assets that caused the offense, or No . 22 (Afternoon) Rll4-0

the lease, or whatever, could not be renewed or the minister would have to resign. Now that is the standa1nd that I advised. Now the members opposite are trying to make something of it because they have nothing else to offer this Province. They are not at all concerned about what is happening with the economy of the Province, or in the fishery, or anything else. They are trying to score cheap political points to demonstrate to the people of this Province that they are still really alive. But they are not making much of a dent in that. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, it normally would take a Premier and a government six or seven years to become as arrogant and as dictatorial and as shifty as this PrE:~rnier has become in eight weeks, normally six or seven years. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT : And, Mr. Speaker, I remember the same answers to the Opposition when we were over there, 11 0h, you have nothing else to offer. Nothing else to talk about. 11 We tiJill set our agenda, Mr. Speaker. It is up to the Premier to live up to his standards. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

L1141 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. RIDEOUT: Now, let me ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker: The Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs (Mr. Gullage) has stated categorically in this House on a number of occasions now that no funds have been approved for the Avian Players in Gander. The minister has said it publicly and he has said it to the House. The former Executive Assistant to the minister said publicly again, only yesterday, that he saw a letter from the Deputy Minister of the department saying that the funds had been approved. That is exactly what he said. MR. WARREN: We got a copy of the letter . MR .

RIDEOUT: Now, I want this. The yesterday to whole matter: the let. ter? letter? If will he table MR. SPEAKER: to ask the Premier Premier undertook investigate that Has he asked for Has he received the he has the letter, it in this House? The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: I have tried to reach Mr. Baird. I have not done it personally, but rny staff tried to reach him this morning, and so far there has not been a response. We have left messages for him. It was later this morning; we had a Cabinet meeting and I just did not get a chance to do it until after Cabinet, but it has been done.

So far I have not had a rE!Sponse. I am happy to see and hear from Mr. Baird at any time. Let me tell the Speaker, that if any commitment or approval of any hon. House, Mr. there had been undertaking or funds for the No. 22 (Afternoon) R1141

Avian Players or' then it would go Board and, in through Cabinet. MR. SIMMS: Not necessarily. MR. BAKER: Absolutely! MR. FUREY: any other group, through TrE!asury all probability, That is the way we do it. MR. SIMMS: The department has a fund for such things. PREMIER WELLS: Maybe the former government did that kind of thing, we do not! MR. SIMMS: Who do you think is going to believe that? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: And I can say without hesitation, unless some civil servant, acting in excess of his authority, has paid out. cash or approved cash or sent a letter, without authority, authorizing the payment, it certainly has not come to Treasury Board or it has not come to Cabinet, and there is no approval at either Treasury Board or Cabinet level for such payment. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

SpE!aker, the Premier knows full well that no Deputy Minister worth his or her salt would sign a letter authorizing the expenditure of funds without the approval of his or her minister. L1142 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI Now, let Has the letter? have a Speaker. for the wi11 he will he me ask the PrE~rnier this: Premier asked for the We11, we will let them conference call, Mr. Has the Premier asked letter, and if hE! has not, ask for the letter? Then, table it. in this House? MR. SIMMS: Sent it back, did you not? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the PrE:~mier. PREMIER WELLS: I have not asked for any letter, at this stage.

I tAJill ask if such a letter exists, and if it exists, I want to see it. But, to the best of my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, no such letter exists. I am satisfied that no approval was given, either by the minister, Treasury Board or by Cabinet. I can speak with absoJ.ute certainty for Cabinet, because I have been at every Cabinet meeting and it has not come up in Cabinet. I have not been at every Treasury Board meeting, but I accept the word of the President of Treasury Board that Treasury Board has not approved it, and I accept the wor·d of the minister that he did not approve it.

The request was made, that the minister rejected. But I will ask if there is any such letter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Premier was questioned yesterday by a person from the media on this rna t t e r, but I have a question for the Premier. In view of the fact that a substantial amount of funds from the Ontario Liberal Party was used to assist the campaign of the No. 22 (Afternoon) R1142

Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador during the 1989 general election - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. WARREN: I say, Mr. Speaker, to members opposite, just wait the question has been asked. hon. until In view of the fact that the Premier of Ontario has ordered an inquiry into the scandal involving Patricia Starr 1s link to politicians and a Toronto developer, Tridel Corporation, and in view of the fact that it is alleged that $86,000 in charitable funds from the Toronto

section of the National Council of Jewish Women was used for political contributions, I would like to ask the Premier is he aware if any of those charitable funds were used for the Liberal Party in the election of 20 April 1989? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker, yesterday, a gentleman of The Toronto Star - MR . SIMMS : The Toronto Star called you. PREMIER WELLS: He did not call me, he spoke to me directly in the serum, and he asked the question on live television and radio . I see the gentleman sitting in the press gallery now.

My recollection of what he asked me was: 1Are you aware that this afternoon, a member of the Ontario Provincial Parliament named Garfield Warren will claim -1 Ll143 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER WELLS : That. is what he said to me. The reporte!r is up U1ere nodding his head to affirm that that is what he said to me. I am reporting to the House that the reporter is in the House and hears what I am saying, and he is nodding his hE!ad to affirm that that is precisely what he said to me. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, he!ar!

PREMIER WELLS: 1A member of the Ontario Legislature named Garfield Warren will make a claim in the Ontario House this afternoon that Patty Starr and the charit~ble foundation that she represents made a contribution to the Liberal Party for the recent political campaign. 1 It caught me cold seconds, because I there cannot be Warrens! 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : for said, two about two 1 My God, Garfield I soldiered on, Mr. Speaker, with the realization that truth is sometimes stranger than fiction and strange things do happen.

So I responded to the reporter and said, 1 To the best of my knowledge no such person ever made any such contribution. 1 They said, 1 Well, will you find out? 1 I said, 1 Yes, I will find out. 1 He said, 1Can we call you later this afternoon? 1 This was about . four-fifteen, as I recall, or four-thirty. 1Can we call you later this afternoon? 1 I said, 1Give me time . We have a No. 22 (Afternoon) R 1143

government to run, a House to attend to, and I cannot run off and check this for you this VE!ry minute. But I u.Jill endeavour to do it as quickly as possible.' As soon as I got out of the House I put in a call to the Treasurer of the Liberal Party to find out what funds, if any, came from Patricia Starr or the National Jewish Foundation. I was not able to reach him until this morning. Somebody else in my office had reached him in the meantime, obviously, and gotten to him with the question. He said, 'I am happy to rE!port to you, Mr.

Premier, there m~ver tJJas any such contribution made and whoever that in Ontario, character GarfiE~ J.d does not about. ' Warren, is, he know what he is SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: named rE!ally talking The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I have here a sealed envelope. I would ask the Page to take it over to the Premier because exactly what the Premier has said is in this envelope. Anyway, Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary to the Premier is: Would the Premier advise the people of Newfoundland and Labrador if the Liberal Party of Newfoundland has received any funds from the Liberal Party of Ontario for the 1989 general election? MR. SPEAKER: L1144· June 29, 1989 Vol XLI The hon. the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Maybe there are two WarrE!ns. MR. MATTHEWS: Garfield Thank God there is only one Clyde We1ls. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: There are two names on this paper, Mr. Speaker, 'Silly' and 'Stupid', so perhaps there are two after all.

I do not know what the member thinks he is doing with this kind of thing. If these are the kinds of games they want to play then I can better use the time of the public of this Province ·by going out to the Day Care center with the children, where there is obviously a greater level of maturity, and deal with them directly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speake~ I do not know who contributed to the Liberal campaign funds. I doubt very much if the Liberal Party of Ontario contributed anything to the campaign funds of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland, but if they did I would not reject it.

I would think it would show great wisdom and foresight on their part and I would not reject it. But to the best of my knowledge they did not. I do not know who contributed the funds. I cannot say whether they did or they did not. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. No. 22 (Afternoon) R 1144

MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: I would suggest that Premier go out to the center but, before he of f his diaper. the Day goes, han. Care take Mr. Speaker, I haue a question for the Minister of Justice (Mr. Dicks).

Would the Minister of Justice assure the people of Newfoundland and Labrador that his department will co-operate in euery way possible with the Ontario Judicial Inquiry and leaue no stone unturned in arriuing at a I use the word in quotation marks - 'truthful' answer, whether some of those funds from the National Council of Jewish Women were used knowingly, and to use the han. the Minister of Justice's phrase, or unknowingly by the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador?

Also would the minister aduise the people of Newfoundland and Labrador if his office or his department has receiued or had any telephone conuersations with the Department of Justice in Ontario during the last forty-eight hours concerning this same issue? MR. DICKS: Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. DICKS: ·Mr--:------sF>eaker, in answer to the first question, yes. And in answer to the second question, no, not to my knowledge. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MS DUFF : Mr. Speaker . L114-5 June 29, 1989 Uol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for St. John's East.

MS DUFF: 1- -- ·-~Jouid like to direct this question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister for Enuironment and Lands (Mr. Kelland), and I did tell his Deputy Minister that I would be raising it. It is a serious issue, in my uiew, and not an unfriendly question in that sense. The enuironmental impacts of the proposed Outer Ring Road, particularly the portion that goes through Pippy Park, haue be!en tht::~ subject of growing concern in the Northeast Aualon region.

Now the EIA was completed in 1988, and it is public, but many questions are being raised which people feel haue not been adequately answered, and there has not, to my knowledge, been a public presentation of this document .

Would the minister, in uiew of these concerns, agree, to prior to the start of construction to organize a comprehensiue public meeting with the appropriate expertise, to outline the major findings of the EHl, the potential enuironmental impacts, and the recommended measures for dealing with these impacts, including the details of the enuironmental protection plan, and to make public the recommendations of the Enuironmental Assessment Reuiew Committee? MR. KELLAND : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Enuironment and Lands. MR. KELLAND : Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I thank you for the question No. 22 (Afternoon) R114-5

because it is a matter of public concern. As the han. member may or may not know, I have had a fair bit of input fr·om various viewpoints on the matter. I do not think that I could say definitely that I have formed an opinion of my own as minister as to how tAle should proceed at this point, but I am still gathering some information. Mr. Speaker, I can tell the member I am leaning towards a allowing greater level or a newer level of public input into the process. But a final decision really has not bE!en made on that.

I would expect, though, that I would be able to give more detailed information within a reasonably short period of time and a public announcement wi11 be made whether or not we will go through the public input process, which has not yet been done, I understand. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Before moving on to the next item, on behalf of han. members I would like to welcome to the public galleries today a delegation fr·om the Council of Marystown in the persons of Mayor Jerome Walsh, Deputy Mayor Mary Hodder and Councillor Frank Hodder and Town Manager -and this is difficult to decipher -but I believe it is Jim Mayo. In any event, we welcome all of these members of the Town Council of Marystown. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Notices of Motion MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. L114-6 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow move that the House resolve itself into a Commit tE!e of the Whole on Su pp 1 y to consider Certain Resolutions for the granting of Supplementary Supply to Her Majesty. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Environments and Lands. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a response to a question posed by the han. the member for Green Bay (Mr. Hewlett).· It was Question No. 36 on the Order Paper of June 14-, 1989.

I apologize again for the length of time it takes, sometimes, but we are fairly well burdened with our responsibilities in the various ministries. It took a little research to put it together for the member but, nevertheless, this is the response to the question in which he asked for a breakdown of the capital expenditures in the 1989-90 provincial parks budget according to park name and provincial district in which the parks reside. That was the wording of his question. I have attached an itemized list of the 1989-90 capital expenditures by provincial park and district as requested by the member for Green Bay.

I am very pleased to say that a total of $658,000 is being expended in districts represented by Liberal members of the House of Assembly, and $329,000 on parks that reside in districts represented by No. 22 (Afternoon) R114-6

Progressive Conservative members of the House of Assembly, and that another $126,000 wi 11 be expended primarily on supplies For distribution throughout parks in the Province. There is a slight typing error in the sheet I will table - the actual figure is $1,113,000. Additionally, to the printed response which I t~o.lill table, Mr. Speaker, I might add that a rough calculation by me, just as I came into the House, was that some thirty-seven parks in the Province, and that could be out one or two, but as far as I could quickly count thirty-seven parks in the Province are receiving specific funding.

That is over and above, or apart from, the $126,000 to be evenly distributed, or distributed on a need basis for sup p 1 i e s , and so on . Of those , it was interesting to note, twenty-two of the parks are in districts represented by Liberal members of the House, and fifteen parks are in districts represented by the PC districts. I did a further calculation based on that, and I noted that thirteen of the twenty-two parks in districts represented by Liberals were previously in PC districts when the ini t.ial plans were made for the current year, or prior to the April 20 election.

So, if we were to extend that out, I suppose, or use one form of logic, it is not so much that the public service made the total decision, but I could say the people of the Province, by their decision on April 20, really said where the money would go. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! DR. KITCHEN: L114-7 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Finance . DR. KITCHEN: ···--·-------··--Mr.

Speaker, on day 11, thE! membE:~r for Grand Falls asked the Minister of Finance to lay upon the Table of the House the following information: An itemized list of expenditures For any office equipment, personal equipment, furnishings and photographs purchased for the Minister's Office since May 5, 1989? Mr. Speaker, the only equipment purchased for the Minister's Office since May 5, 1989 was a word processing system, including a printer and a Word Perfect, approximate cost $8,100. .8__~-- HON_. -~_I_MB E R: Where did the other one go? DR. KITCHEN: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to Question 24-, of the same day, as ked by the same member to the same minister: An itemized list of travel expenditures incurred by the Minister, his Executive Assistant or any other member of the Minister's personal staff tJJho may have accompanied him since May 5, 1989? The answer is: The Minister of Finance has incurred no travel expenditures since May 5, 1989, and, an Executive Assistant has not yet been appointed. Orders of the Day MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: No. 22 (Afternoon) Rl14-7

The han. Leader. MR. BAKER: Order 2. MR. SPEAKER: the Government Committee of Supply. HouSE! The motion is that I do now leave the Chair. On motion, itself into on Supply, Chair. that the House rE!SOlve Committee of the Whole Mr. Speaker left the Committee of the Whole tl_~_,__gi_A I R M B_~_j_L._5 no~~ : Order, please! The han. Leader. the Government House MR. BAKER: Mr. Chairman, this particular exercise involves three separate Heads, Executive Council, Consolidated Fund Services and Legislative.

The Executive Council really involves two sections, the Premier 1 s Office and his support staff, plus Treasury Board. I would suggest that we, perhaps, deal t.ui th Consolidated Fund Services first. Does it matter? MR. SIMMS: I suggest to the Government House Leader there is no big problem. We will just leave it open until we are finished the debate and then we will pass all of the Heads at the end of thE! day, if that is acceptable to him. MR. BAKER: Okay. Fine. L114-8 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS: We may have on with a There is· no of it now. MR.

BAKER: someone come in later question, you know. real reason to get rid Fine. I wonder if the Minister of Finance, then, could do a brief comment on Consolidated Fund Services? MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Chairman, for Consolidated Funds Services, as shown in the estimates from page S to page 9, the total is $4-56,717,200, which includes expenditures related to the Provincial debt, the major portion of which is related to interest payments and a number of other items. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader. MR.

SIMMS: Opposition House Can the minister elaborate just a little bit for us in explanatory fashion? I think we require just a little more explanation than that, not only for us but for the benefit of others, the press, and so on. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Chairman, the Consolidiated Fund is administered by the Department of Finance, by the Comtroller General, and it lists in the estimates the borrowings of government, including the treasury bills and debentures.

It looks at the amount of money that we have outstanding to Crown building corporations and various other areas, it lists the employee retirement arrangements, having to do with our pension funds for all No. 22 (Afternoon) R114-8

the various government employees, previous government employees, and so on, and it also includes our loan guarantees and things of that nature. MR . CHAIRMAN : The hon . the Leader. MR. SIMMS : Opposition House Mr. Chairman, I am not sure that this is the appropriate place to raise the question again. I know it was raised in the Estimates Committees, and it dealt with the matter of early retirement. You will recall that last year the then government afforded an early retirement program for public servants. Subsequent to that, as a result of representations by the unions.

NAPE and CUPE, there was a request for government to consider extending the same progr·am to other public servants employed in the hospital sector. At the time, government considered their request. It was on the basis of government's original plan, which was to make it a cost-saving measure.

Eventually, over a three or four year period, the departments in the public service were expected to save the money by not rehiring quickly, by perhaps eliminating some positions that may have bE!COme redundant, or whatever the measures were, the intent was for a department that was going to afford early retirement to 50 employees over a three year or four year period, they would have to find that funding. But we did put the program in place. It also opened up opportunities for job advancement, new job opportunities in the public service, and so on.

So it was an excellent idea and an excellent program, in my view. But in the case of the health L1149 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI s e• c to r , it was f e 1 t v e r y s t r o n g 1 y by the government of the day that it would be discriminatory if we did not afford the same program to public servants in the health care sector and so we, as a matter of policy, made the decision, as I recollect it, and I do not have the details with me, to extend the program to the health care sector . AN HON. MEMBER : Make the employees (inaudible) . MR.

SIMMS: Yes, but the same understanding, of course, applied to the departments of government when we extended the program to the public service. AN HON. MEMBER: Is that right? MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes! It is right in the Order-in-Council I would suspect. AN HON. MEMBER: It is not the same plan (inaudible) . MR. SIMMS : The departments were asked to find the savings. The Minister of Finance nodded and so did the President of Treasury Board, so I think they understand it. All I am saying is that the same intent was made and meant for employees in the health care sector.

Now the difficulty is, of course, that government funds the hospitals, provides them directly with their operating grants and so on. So the hospitals had di ffi cul ty, because how were they going to find the funds? There was only one way for them to find the funds, and that is if government provided the necessary money over the period of time to No. 22 (Afternoon) R1149

accommodate the early retirement program. That is as I undE!rstand it. Perhaps the minister, if he wants to comment, can tell me if that was his understanding and maybe he can explain why it was not able to be worked out in that way. Because, quite frankly, I think as a government we did feel it was discriminatory not to offer it to health care sector employees. Maybe the minister could just comment on what I have said. I know that it costs money up front, there is no question about that.

But was there not a way or a mechanism that could be found over a three, four or five year period, for that matter, whereby the hospitals could find the savings so that that same program could be extended to health care workers? Whether it is the Minister of Finance or the President of TrE!asury Board, or the Minister of Health, for that matter, who wants to comment on it, I would appreciate a comment on i.t, if he would not mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would be glad to comment on it.

ThE! ministE!r obviously, from what he said, understands what the program was meant to do. It was a program that was meant to be a self-financing program; over a period of three or four years, the savings within the departments was supposed to be enough to pay for the program. There were a number of reasons for this employer initiative. It was a government initiative not a worker initiative. There were Lll !jQ June 29, 1989 Vol XLI several reasons for that government initiative. One was to reduce staff.

There was thought to be some fat to be trimmed, some possible redundancy within the system, that was onE! reason, but there was another reason, which was to provide room for moVE!ment, as the minister pointed out, within the civil service as a morale builder. So that t..uas the function of the plan. It. was an employer initiated plan, and that is important. The prE!Vious, previous government, I believe, made the decision to offer the same plan that government departments were taking advantage of to other agencies, and one was the health care system.

The offer was made, and the response from the health care system was that they would like to take advantage of this early retirement scheme. However, there could be no savings within the system and it could not be self-financing. In other words, the problem is, and this, if I may say so, is a problem with a lot of programs when they are brought to handle a problem, in this case some OVE!rstaffing and lack of movement, but then the program that is brought in to handle the problem is then extended to other areas where the problE!m does not exist and we get caught up in many government programs that are misapplied.

In this case, it was pointed out to us by the health care sector that this was a misapplication, that an integral part of the program was there would be savings involved, and so on, that it would be a self-financing program, and they pointed out to us that it could not be self-financing. In other words, they could not take advantage of this initiative as No. 22 (Afternoon) Rll!:iO

the government presented it. As a result of that, no money was put in this year 1 s budget for that early retirement scheme for the health care sector, simply because they could not accept that program as it was. However, our position was that if, perhaps, there were some problems in the ht=!alth care sector that could be addressed in this way, then we would be only too glad to work with the health care sector to develop programs that are suitable to that sector. I do not, and the government does not, look upon this as discrimination.

If there is a problem in the health care sector that needs to be addressed, we will be only too glad to sit down and come up with a program that is suited to that particular sector. It is obvious that the program as e n v i s i o ned , t hat a p pare n t 1 y wo r k e d so well in the other government departments - it is self-financing, provided for movement in the system - was not needed in the health care sector; there was no fat to be trimmed in the hospital structure, the Minister of Health will be glad to know, and it could not be self-financing.

I suspect that within the next month or two there will be some kinds of approaches made, there have been some tentative ones already, from sections of the health care field. There will be some approaches made, and perhaps talks and discussions will take place over the next few months with regard to their particular needs and a program that might be developed to suit their needs. MR . CHAIRMAN: The han. the Opposition House Leader . Lll51 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS : Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I just want to make a brief comment on it, and my colleague, the FinancE! crit:ic, has just OnE! or two 1 itt l e questions , I think , for the MinistE!r of Finance. That is about all we need to do on Consolidated Revenue. I do want to follow through on t.his, because I have had some representations myself from health care workers. Of course, they, as individuals, do claim that it is discriminatory, and, I must admit, I think they have a case. I think they have a legitimate argument worth listening to. They are paid by the treasury and they consider themselves to be public servants in the health care sector.

We do the negotiating. Treasury Board, the rninister 1 s department, does the nE!gotiating. Whilst the minister made it appear as if there was no real problr:~m. they were going to have discussions later on and all that kind of thing, I seem to recall there were some pretty strong statements made by certain union leaders hips, shall we say, with respect to this issue. So I think it would be a bit misleading, not deliberately, of course, on the minister 1 s part, to suggest that there are no problems with it and everybody is happy and everything is hunky-dory and all that, because that is not the case.

There are health care workers who are very upset with the decision by the present government not to follow through on the commitment given by the previous administration, even though the details still had to be worked out. I guess the reality government wanted to is, if extend the the No. 22 (Afternoon) R1151

program to the health care sector, they simply had to provide the funding to the hospitals for it to occur. That is the reality of it. So you either wanted to do it or you did not want to do it. That is the way I put it to the han. the President of Treasury Board. The other point is, he sort of dwelled on this issue of trimming fat, as if in the health care sector there is no fat to be trimmed. Of course, that was not the only re!ason nor the only purpose for early retirement, as he knows. So he should not dwell on that as being one of the reasons why it was not proceeded tAJith.

The fact of the matter is, it was still possible by offering early retirement to employees at the higher lE!Vel, and when those positions t:hen had to be filled, they would be filled at the lower end of the salary scale. That is where the saving would have occurred, and that was the argument the health care sector put forward. The Newfoundland Hospital and Nursing Home Association, Robin Burnell1 s group, they certainly did not say they did not want to participate in this program.

At the time we were involved in negotiations with them, they certainly did not say they did not want to participate, but they certainly made it clear that if it was going to be extended to the he a 1 t h care s e c tor , then it wo u 1 d be up to the government, obviously, to provide the necessary funding to the hospitals so that they could kick in the early retirement program and they would have the same restrictions placed on them as government departments.

Those hospitals, that had early retirement for L1152 June 29, 1989 Uol XLI fifteen or twenty or forty employE!eS wouJ.d, over that pE!riod of three or four years, have to find the necessary savings, and I think it is unfortunate that you werE! not able to extE!nded it to the health care sector, or you decided not to, for whatever reasons. I do hope, though, that in the upcoming discussions he indicated he might be having, and I expect he will be having them t.uith NAPE and CUPE, probably, that some arrangement can be worked out.

Because I honestly think the employees have an argument when they say offering it simply to the public servants in government departments and not to those public servants who are employed in the health care sector is discriminatory. I just make that point and leave it with the President of Treasury Board. My colleague. the Finance has a short question or so MinistE!r of Finance and maybe, we can get on Consolidated Revenue to meaty things. MR. CHAIRMAN: critic, for the thE!n, from other The han. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. One very brief comment concerning that situation.

We did not refuse to carry out a commitment that was previously made. We did not refuse anything in the process. We were informed that the heaJ.th care sector could not avail of the program, so we said, alright, if it is not possible to avail of that program as it is, then let us sit down and look at a program that would suit the health care sector. It is as simple as that. Nothing was rejected. There was no scheme that was offered anybody No. 22 (Afternoon) R1152

else that was not offered the health care sector. We offered them exactly the same thing, or members opposite did, when they were there, and they carne back and said they could not avail of that particular program . That is where it sits now, but perhaps something else can be worked out. Obviously, there are quite a few individuals who are dissatisfied . What would happen in most segments of the health care sector is that people would go on early retirement, would get their severence, get their full pension, and then come back to work full-time afterwards.

That kind of expense we cannot afford, because the people are not there to take the jobs. That is the basic problem. However, maybe something can be worked out that is slightly different, and maybe we can help the health care sector sometime in the next few months. MR. CHAIRMAN : The han. the member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a question along the same lines on early retirement. Particularly, I would like to refer the minister to Subhead 2. 1.06, Early Retirement Incentives - Non-Statutory. There is $3 million budgeted for salaries and $9 million under Grants and Subsidies.

I am just wondering if the minister could explain particularly the $9 million in Grants and Subsidies that fall under Early Retirement Incentives? Do you have it? Page 9, Consolidated Fund Services . MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance . Lll53 June 29, 1989 Uol XLI DR. KITCHEN: The $9 mi 11 ion in grants and thE! subsidies is the amount Province will advance to Crown early lAJill be agencies for their retirement progr'am, which completed by June 1989 . MR . CHAIRMAN : The han. the member for Grand Bank . MR.

MATTHEWS: The $3 million For salaries, is that a sort of carryover into this fiscal year from government employees who took advantage of the early retirement program? If you are giving $9 million in grants and subsidies to government agencies, and so on, is that $3 million a carryover from those who took advantage last year? MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: The member has it exactly right.

The $3 million is the outstanding amount from the March 31, 1989, program for government departments, and the total cost of this early retirement program for government departments would be the $14,321,700 plus the $3 million, which would give a total of $17, 321,'700. MR . CHAIRMAN : The hon. the member for Grand Bank . MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr . Chairman . I have another question for the Minister of Finance. I refer him to Page 6, again Consolidated Fund Services, Subhead 1. 3. 01 under Guarantee Fees - Non-Statutory ..

Last year the revised figure was $380,000 and this year we see for Professional Services an amount budgeted of $650,000. First of No. 22 (Afternoon) R1153

all I am wonder·ing what would be covered under Professional Services, and tAJhy would the amount budgeted this year be almost double that of last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Chairman, I am trying to find my notes on that. Professional Services, $6!:>0,000, I b~lieue that is receiver's fees. Let me just read my note. Occasionally when the Province is called upon to honour a guarantee, government must act to safeguard its security, whether this security be a mortgage or on specific property or personal guarantees of individuals.

Expenses will be incurred when such actions are taken, and these expenses could include costs of taking possession and storage of assets, appointment of receivers, legal fees and hiring of consultants. The 1988-89 revised figure reflects receiver fees incurred for Easb~el Industries, Cape Pine Fisheries and Newfoundland Enuiroponics. For 1989-90 the estimate includes a further $~61,000 relating to Newfoundland Enuiroponics, $100,000 for Easteel Industt":ies, $!:>!:>,000 for Cape Pine Fisheries and the provision of $3~,000 for contingencies.

PrE!Uiously, such expenditures were provided for under debt management in the Department of Finance estimates. Since the expenditure relates to loan guarantees, it was decided to include the provision in Consolidated Fund Services, commencing 1990. MR. MATTHEWS: Did you say $3~,000 for Lll !)~ June 29, 1989 Vol XLI contingencies? DR. KITCHEN: Yes, $3~,000 for contingenices. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader. MR. SIMMS: Opposition House Just one other further comment, and then we can moue on if you like. Back to the earlier retirement program, just to make OnE! final point for the President of the Council.

I am sure he is aware of it anyway, but I undE!r there is legislation, or at least proposed legislation, coming down from the federal government by the end of this year dealing with a whole range of issues, such as pensions, but also including, I u n d e r s t a n d , u o 1 u n tar y r·e tire me n t programs, and that there is in that. Legislation something that will prevent these kinds of voluntary retirement programs from being implemented. ThereforE!, the only point I rea1ly want to make is to make sure the minister is aware of it.

In the upcoming discussions and negotiations he said earlier he would be having with the unions representing the health care sector employees, where he said he might bE! able to war k out a program that would be acceptable and that kind of thing, I just want to ask him to make sure he proceeds with haste to do this. Because if you are going to put a package together, obviously you would have to do it now, in the next few months, before this federal Legislation comes down. I see the Minister of Finance is anxious to comment, so perhaps he could. MR. CHAIRMAN: No. 22 (Afternoon) R11!:>~

The han. the Minister ~f Finance . DR . KITCHEN: That is true. We are not. rnally sure what the federal pension changes are to be, there is quite a bit of discussion on it. One thing we are certain of, though, is that the time for the buying of unworked service will expire . So if there are people who want to boost their retirement plans by buying years they did not work, this tAJill certainly expire by the end of December of this present year. In that sense it may interfere, so there would be some haste, I suppose, in people taking up this plan. It will certainly expire by the end of the year.

The other matters the federal government have with respect to pension reform are not finalized yet, and it looks like they may not be finalized for some time. On motion, total for Consolidated Fund Services, carried. MR . CHAIRMAN : Executive Council. Shall 1.1.01 carry? MR. SIMMS: Mr . Cha-irman. MR . CHAIRMAN: fhe han. the Leader. Opposition House MR. SIMMS : Perhaps we could deal with this in the same way as we dealt with Consolidated Fund Services, in that we waited until the exchanges or questions were asked and answered before we put the subheads, if that is acceptable.

That would be the easiest way so we do not have to be carefully watching to see if the government L1155 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI is trying to quickly pass some Head. I am sure they would not want to be accused of that, so we will just leave:~ it open, if that is agreeable, until we are Finished our questioning. I have just a few questions here for the time being; the member for Humb er East and other members may wish to ask some questions, as well.

Specifically, one question I would like the President of Treasury Board - I do not know if the Premier is going to respond to this s·tuff himself or if i:he President of Treasury Board is, but whoever is going to respond and would have the details, under Heading 2.2.05, Economic Research and Analysis, page 16, there are some increases in that group .

First of all, the revised figures for salaries was $304,000, this year $3 59,000 is budgeted; the Transportation and Communication budget which was revised last year For $19,000 is up to $61,000, and, more s pe ci fi cally, the Professional Servi ces Heading, 2.2.05 .05, which last year had a revised figure of $67,000 against a budgeted figure of $263,000, this year is budgeted for $417,000. So I would like the Premier or the President of the Council, or whoever is going to respond, to perhaps just explain in some detail what the additional funding is required for and why such a large increase . MR.

CHAIRMAN : The han . the Leader. MR. BAKER: Government Thank you, Mr. Chairman . House It is a very important question the member for Grand Falls asks. This is a large increase in this particular Professional Services No. 22 (Afternoon) R 1155

Heading over the expenditure for last year. The expenditure was $67,500, as he pointed out, and the Professional Services for this corning y(->.ar is $4-17,200. This relates largely to a rather major initiative on the part of the Economic Research Analysis Division. It is very important in this ProvincE:' in terms of planning, in terms of having a look at the economy and how the economy would be affected by changes. So it is a rnodel development, if I can put it that way. MR. SIMMS: Econometric models . MR. BAKER: Well, I am just E~xplaining it in would terms that the member understand. MR.

SIMMS : I understand it because I initiated it. MR. BAKER: It is a model development that I believe is really important. Because whenever we want to look at changes in the economy, whenever we want to look at planning For the offshore or planning for any development in this Province, when this model is developed presumably we will be able to almost immediately get a detailed analysis of all sectors of the economy and how it will be affected by that particular initiative. So this is the development of this particular model.

I think it was an initiative started by the previous government, which we are now continuing. MR. SIMMS: I thank the han. the President of Treasury Board for that response. Lll 56 June 29, 1989 Uol XLI As soon as he started to explain it, I quickly rE~collectE~d what it was all about. He explained it very well, much bettE~r than I probably would have . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: See how modest, I am, even though it was I who init iated it? I do remember the terminology econometric model . That is what the President of Treasury Board must rememtH '~r· l·o say in the future .

Whenever he is asked by his colleagues in the backbenches, 'Winston, what is that all about, that big increase of $67, 4-17?' the President of Treasury Board can say, 'Well, boys, that is for an econometric model for the Province,' and I will guarantee you, you will not get any supplementary questions. Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of other genera 1 questions , if I may , nothing specific, although I am sure it is in heine somewhere.

It has to do with politics, the operation of the Premier's office, the new approach to politics, the real change in politics in Newfoundland vis-a-vis the operations of the Premier's Office. I would like to ask him a coupie of basically general questions just to get it started. I would like the Premier to advise the House what the salary for his Executive Assistant on the West Coast, operating out of the Corner Brook office, is . I realize he might not have it at his fingertips, but I am sure he can get it before the afternoon is out. No. 22 (Afternoon) RllS6

'"'" In addition· to that, I would like to know what benefits have been afforded the new Executive Assistant, Mr. Joyce I believe his name is. What other benefits does he receive? Specifically, that is the question I want to zero in on. There might be others we can come up with later, but I would like that answer as soon as he can get it. For example, does it include provision of an automobile or a vehicle? If so, is that same benefit afforded t.o all Executive Assistants in the system? It has never been heard of before, and I just want to find out if there is any truth to the rumors and things like that.

The Premier knows what I am talking about. The other thing I would like to ask the Premier, simply from a parochial point of view, is whether or not he intE!nds to shut down the Premier's Office operation in the Provincial Building in Grand Falls, as also has been rumored. He certainly can answer that one right away, I am sure. The others, I realize, are detailed, so he can get back to me when he can. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Mr.

Chairman, as everybody knows, I guess, ever since the days of the formr:~r Liberal administration, when the Sir Richard Squires Building was built in Corner Brook, because of the distance from St. John's and the area it served, there was an office there. In fact, a Cabinet room has been built and maintained there, and an office for the Premier, and there are two or three other offices. The Cabinet L1157 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI room in Corner Brook has been maintained, and I am sure the hon. member has sat in it.. I am explaining this for the netAJer TTIE!rnbers of the House to makE! surE! they understand fully.

There has been a recognition that there is a need for somebody operating a Premier's Office, or an office of the Premier in the Western part of Newfoundland that will serve the functions of the Cabinet and other Cabinet ministers when they go in the area. It was originated by Mr. Sma1.lwood when he was Premier, it was carried on, and I believe enhanced, by Mr. Moores when he was Premier, and it was carried on again, and I believe enhanced, by Mr.

Peckford when he was Premier, and the time went by in such a flash when the Leader· of the Opposition was Premier that there was not time to really think about it, he was too busy, occupied with other things, and there was not time for him to enhance it, so it just went on as it was. We found that to be the situaU.on when we took over. We have continued that operation. When a fellow by the name of Mr.

Edward Joyce did a magnificent job of winning the Bay of Islands seat in the recent General Election, and when I lost my own seat and it became necessary for me as Premier to acquire a seat, I had difficulty beating Ed Joyce off. He was so anxious to get mE! to represent Western Newfoundland in general and the Bay of Islands in particular that he offE!red me his seat. I accepted his offer and the invitation of the people of Bay of Islands, and it would be certainly unfair to him to expect him to give up that position and not be involved at all. Bearing in mind that in any event somebody No. 22 (Afternoon) R1157

would be appointed to the position of Executive Assistant to the Premier in Wester·n Newfoundland, I thought this would be an entirely appropriate thing to do, and accordingly appointed Mr. Joyce to be the Premier1s Executive Assistant in Western Newfoundland, and he sits in that office. I t.~o.lill try and find out:. the salary details. My recollection is that it is $42,600 or something. MR. SIMMS: Top of the scale, is it? PREMIER WELLS: No, it is position. in It a mid-scale looks like information is at sorry, it is $43,878. hand. I am MR. SIMMS: That is top of the scale.

PREMIER WELLS: I do not think the han. correct. There is one there. MR. BAKER: member is secretary The Premier 1 s EA is on a different scale. PREMIER WELLS: He is on a different scale than a minister1s Executive Assistant. The minister is quite correct. MR. SIMMS: If I might interrupt the Premier, there is no change in the scale or anything from what was prE•viously paid to the Executive Assistant to the Premier, whoever it was? That was not changed or increased or whatever? PREMIER WELLS: I do not know. It may have been. I would have to check that. It may well have been increased.

Lll58 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS: I wonder if Parliamentary check? PREMIER WELLS: we could Assistant ask there I will try and gE!t that. Who the former Executive Assistant? MR. SIMMS: Whoever was ~here before. I not know who it was. MS VERGE: Anita Allen. MR. SIMMS: Who was it? MS VERGE: Anita Allen. MR. SIMMS: his to was do Anita Allen, that position as king is, was as this? I think, occupied before. What I am her salary the same PREMIER WELLS: It may or rnay not have bE!en.

My recollection of it at the time is that the establishing of that salary really was not based on what Anita Allen made or did not make. MR. SIMMS: It is classified, I presume. position is classified. PREMIER WELLS: The It is a position that can be fitted on the scale and the Lieutenant-Governor in Counci1, as the han. member knows, can establish the salary that is appropriate. But it should come as no surprise to the hon. minister that the salary reflects approximately what Mr. Joyce would have earned as a member of the House, and that is approximately what it is. That is my No. 22 (Afternoon) R 1158

recollection of how it was . MR. SIMMS: But it is not set for that purpose . PREMIER WELLS: Pardon mE!? PREMIER WELLS : The scale for an Executive Assistant is not set based on what he might have made as a member? PREMIER WELlS : No, no, no . MR . SIMMS: Maybe the mEHnber for Exploits could find out what salary was paid to Mrs. Allen last year, just so we have an idea for comparison purposes. PREMIER WELLS : We will compare all of the salaries, the total salary bills. We will compare, in particular, the total salary bills and show the difference. MR. SIMMS: No, no, no, no, no, we are not interested. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER WELLS : Oh, indeed WE! will . stop with one comparison. MR. SIMMS : We will not individual No, no, no, do not give us too much information. PREMIER WELLS: We will compare them all very carefully, and there tAJill be very substantial elaboration, particularly on the money spent on press aides and the hundreds of thousands of dollars that were Lll59 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI wasted by the former administration . MR. SIMMS : We expE!Ct that to be corning out of the Premier's Office. PREMIER WELLS: We will indeed . We will provide the comparative details . MR.

SIMMS : The specific que stion is the Executive Assistant to the Premier on the West Coast. PREMIER WELLS: Indeed! We will make sure that the whole thing is - MR. SIMMS : Mr. Grimes is going to try to get that information . He is not even listening. He is making out he is not listening. PREMIER WELLS : We have given the information . I told the member how I believe the salary was arrived at. I am told that the same scal e is now used as was used by the former administration for the Executive Assistant to the Premier. They are on the same scale as was used bE!fore. No one is at the top of the scale. Mr.

Joyce is the highest individual. MR. SIMMS : Not bad! AN HON. MEMBER : He did very well . PREMIER WELLS: Now, there was some other question. MR. SIMMS: What additional bE!nefi ts are provided? PREMIER WELLS : No . 22 (Afternoon) Rll.59

Oh, there are no additional benefits provided. Apparently there were two automobiles in Corner Brook attached to the Premier's Office, or the Department of Transportation -one or two, I have forgotten which. MS VERGE: No, there was nE~ver an automobile attached to that office, that I know of. PREMIER WELLS: I am sorry. The ITIE!mber can shake her head if she wishes. I can only say that I was told there were two automobi'les already tht::~re and they considered selling them or sending them in to St. John's. I have forgotten what they were going to do with them. I believe they were proposing to sell them. MR.

SIMMS: The two cars were assigned to Premier's Office? Or t.1.Jas it Department of Transportation, something? PREMIER WELLS: the the or I do not know who. There werE! two government cars at loose ends in Corner Brook. I have no idea where they came from. They were there for the former government. Well, the minister can shake her head if she wishes. I can tell her all I can do is report what has been told to me, that there were two cars.

They were considering selling both of the cars, and I suggested that it would be advisable to have a car available there rather than rent a car when the PrE'mier goes out to Corner Brook, as they were there before. MR. SIMMS: So who uses the vehicle that is available there? Does the Executive Assistant use it? Ll160 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI PREMIER WELLS: I do not know. I suppose he uses it For public purposes. I have seen that hE! has not alt.uays used it. I have seen claims For mileage where he has USE!d his own car. I have seen that is the case. MR.

SIMMS: I am a bit surprised at the the therr> of a vehicle issue, because Executive Assistant over before never, ever had use vehicle, that I know of. PREMIER WEI LS: And there are no other benefits that I know of other than the routine benefits. I do not know what connection the member for Torngat Mountains had with the building, but when I went into the office again I discovered a rather elaborate washroom that I did not recall being there before. MR. SIMMS: In Corner Brook? PREMIER WELLS: A detailed and elaborate washroom. MR. SIMMS: In Corner Brook? PREMIER WELLS: In Corner Brook.

MS VERGE: It was Joey Smallwood's washroom. PREMIER WELLS: It was not there in that form, as I remember it. MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes. It has been ·there for twenty years. MS VERGE: It was there in 1968, when the building opened. No. 22 (Afternoon) R1160

PREMIER WELLS : I do not recall it. Maybe my recollection is incorrect . The building is otherwise, I believe, essentially the same as it has been for the last twenty-odd years, or that floor is essentially the same as it was. We have cut down the use of it by the Premier 1 s Office. We have now assigned two of the offices to be made available to the Chairman of the Economic Recovery Advisory Board and a staff person who will provide services for that board.

They will need at least access to one government staff person, so we are casting around the public service now to find somebody available to provide that service to the Economic Advisory Board, and they will work out of that floor. The Economic Advisory Board wi1l use the Cabinet office in Corner Brook for its meetings, as other groups can . The Cabinet room is also being used at this time as a second jury room. I believe it has been used for that purpose in the past.

When there are two criminal jury trials being carried on in the courtrooms in the building, there is only one jury room, and they use the Cabinet office for that purpose. That is the use of the office. MR . SIMMS : I asked the Premier about the Grand Falls building. PREMIER WELLS : Oh, I am sorry! Yes, all other Premier 1 s offices around the Province have been closed, including the one in Grand Falls. Whatever others existed, I was confident we did not need them, so they were closed. Lll61 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. CHAIRMAN : Th e han. the mE:'mber for Humber East . MS VERGE: Thank you, Chairperson .

I have questions for the President of Treasury Board. Again, I will ask him to wear his other hat, the Status of Women minister 1 s hat, and I will ask him some more questions. Before that, I would just like to comment on the Prernier 1 s statements about government vehicles in Corner Brook. There may well be surplus government vehicles in Corner Brook, but I can tell the Premier and all members of this han.

House that as a government minister for about ten years, representing ·a Corner Brook riding and spending a lot of time in Corner Brook, I was never aware of a government vehicle being available to me or to anyone working at the Premier 1 s Office in Corner Brook. To the best of my knowledge, there was no such government vehicle. I certainly did not know about one. · I certainly never used a government vehicle when I was in Corner Brook . Now, to Treasury Board.

I question for the President, about the Personnel Division, the estimates of are on Page 21 of the Estimates document. have a first, Policy which Budget The minister may remember, about two weeks ago in Question Period, I asked him if he was familiar with a report done by that division of Treasury Board on the position of women in the public service of this government. I understand that such a report exists and that it provides valuable information about the No. 22 (Afternoon) Rll61

status of ti.Ye women I.Alho are employed by the government and government funded agencies, and it compares the position of women in our provincial public service with the position of women in the wider work force. At that time, I asked the minister, the President of Treasury Board, to table the report in the House of Assembly. I suspect the question slipped his mind, but I would like to ask again if he would get that report and table it in the House. It seems to mE!, the Personnel Policy Division of Treasury Board is an extremely valuable unit of this government.

It was established a few years ago with a mandate to advise the President of Treasury Board and the government generally, on ways of improving morale in the public service and eliciting greater productivity from our public employees.

After all, the government is perhaps the largest single employer in the whole Province - I cannot think of a J.arger - and it is extremely important that there be a concerted effort on the part of government as employer and government as manager to have the best policies governing the employment of public servants, so that they are fulfilled in their jobs and they are made to feel good about their efforts on behalf of their employer . It is important that public servants' efforts be rewarded properly, and that those performing well be motivated to apply for promotions.

The Personnel Policy Division was set up by the PC government. Another innovation of the PC government which the new government inherited L1162 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI is entering into pay equity negotiations for provincial public servants. Of course, the point of those negotiations is to improve the position of women in our public service and to try to see that the gender pay discrimination is eradicated. I would like to ask the minister to give the House an update on the status of the pay equity negotiaU .ons.

Perhaps I will sit down and allow him to answer those questions now, and then I will have more questions about his work as Status of Women Minister. PREMIER WELLS: Just before the President of the Council provides the answer in detail to what the han. member asked, I want to deal with the car information. I marvel at the efficiency of the new staff in the office. The information was right at hand and it is available. MR. SIMMS : (Inaudible) she had it yesterday . PREMIER WELLS: Not that I know of . sought it and the available.

They went and information is There were two old cars in the motor pool, headed for the auction block because MS VERGE: In St. John's. PREMIER WELLS: No. no. In Corner Brook. MR. SIMMS: In the motor pool, Premier's office . PREMIER No, in Brook. headed No. 22 WELLS: the motor pool There were two for the auction (Afternoon) not the in Corner old cars block, so Rll62

it was decided to keep one and make it available for transportation for the Premier when he is in Corner Brook, and in Western Newfoundland, on the many occasions when he will be there discharging his duties as Premier. In the meantime, the Executive Assistant, in the discharge of his duties, would use it as well. MR. SIMMS: He looks after the car for the Premier. PREMIER WELLS: Exactly. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Government House Leader. MR. BAKER : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The member for Humber East understands, obviously, the workings of the division she was referring to .

I support her vis ion and her views of the functioning of that part of Treasury Board. I think it is one of the most important functions in terms of staffing. I did overlook the report the member mentioned earlier, and I will try to give her a better response tomorrow on that report; I will see to it later on today. One thing I cannot help but mention, though, the member for Humber East was very reasonable and I could not help but think of thE! principle of fairness and balance when the member was speaking. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

BAKER: Lll63 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI She quite correctly pointed out that there were some rather excellent policies brought in by a previous, previous administration, and I am quite willing to admit that t.hE!re were a number of very sensible, reasonable, and progressive things done in the past . Obviously, good things have happened and bad things have happened, so I accept her comments. The concept of pay equity is one that we are in the process of grappling with, as she knows. We have made commitments and these commitments will bE! carried out.

This was a child of a previous, previous administration in working with the work force. But I find it a little amusing, in terms of fairness and balance, that the member for Humber East, and some other members opposite, · get extremely upset - outraged is probably a better word - if members on this side happen to mention that there were some things that happened in the last seventeen years that were not so good .

I would like to say to her that in the interest of fairness and balance, perhaps she should not be as outraged with ministers when they refer to the past seventeen years, because I do not mind admitting that there were also some very good things that happened during the last seventeen years. So in the interest of fairness and balance, if members opposite want to refer to the good things that happened, then please accept the principle that members on this side of the House may not all the time but on a occasion, refer to incidents in the past seventeen years that were not so good.

That thought was going . through my mind as the member was speaking. However, her s pe ci fi c question on No. 22 (Afternoon) R1163

pay equity: Again, I can get a more detailed answer For her tomorrow. I will tell her at this point that the process is proceeding. The meetings are being held all the time, and I am making sure that it is progressing. Everything has been discussed, and we should be in a position late Summer or early Fall to have something on paper. But, as the member knows, it is a lengthly process; a lot of people have to come together to make some basic decisions first and then we actually go to work on the specific proposals. Because the pay equity is a very complicated thing, we want to make sure it is done properly.

However, later on today I would ask my officials for an absolutely up-to-date status report on what has been happening in the last couple of weeks and I will be glad to inform thE! member of that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Humber East. MS VERGE: Chairperson, I would have to agree with the comments of the han. the President of Treasury Board. I think, on the whole, what he said is fair. It is true that th~ 1necord of the previous, and even the previous, previous administrations was not flawless; we did not achieve absolute justice and equality.

We did leave some challenges for the new government, and that is what I am asking him about now. When the minister's party was campaigning in the Winter and Spring, the party platform included a written commitment to bring in pay equity legislation. I would like the minister to te!ll us if he has begun the work of L1164 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI drafting that legislation, and whether he will be in a positJon to introduce it in the Fall. sitting of the House? MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAK.ER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am not absolutely certain it is going to be ready for the Fall sitting of the House. What I will tell the member is this, that we have not even started to draft it yet because we are not far enough along in the process. But as I said, I hope it u.Jill be late Summer or early Fall.

At the point at which this legislation is ready in draft form, I would hope to present it to an all-party Committee of the House to examine, actually before we come back into the House, and give them some period of time to have a look at the legislation, to have a public discussion on the legislation before it is actually brought into the House. So it is going to be a lengthly process, unfortunately, and it may actually be next Spring before the whole thing is complete.

But I would like to use the Committee structure, if at all possible, to have that public discussion, public examination by all political parties before we even bring it into the House for final resolution. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the member for Humber ·East. MS VERGE: Thank you, Chairperson. I would now like to ask the No. 22 (Afternoon) R 1164

minister some questions about his Status of Women responsibilities. Since without even reading the report of the Personnel Policy Division about the position of women in the public service, anyone who has looked around tJ.Ji 11 see readily that the position of women is inferior and subordinate to that of mE!n as measured by pay and as measurE!d by power.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for the Status of Women, who also happens to be the President of Treasury Board, responsible for the Public Service and personnel issues, what measures he proposes to improve the position of women in the public service? Right now we have one vacancy in the Public Service Commission . Actually there were two vacancies, the Chair and other position, when the new government assumed office, and the new government hastened to appoint a man, Mr.

Gil Pike, who was an experienced Deputy Minister, to the Chair. missing an opportunity to appoint an experienced and competent woman. However. there is now one vacancy and there is another vacancy due to arise in the Fall. It seems to me these are two golden opportunities to make a real effort to improve and advance the position of women in the provincial Public Service, because, after all, the Public Service Commission has the mandate of recruiting people for permanent public service jobs and then of evaluating applicants, and it also has the role of conducting ongoing in-service training for public employees.

I would like to ask the minister, in

summary, what steps he is proposing to mount to advance the interests of women in the employ Lll65 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI of the Province and, specifically, whether he will do his best to appoint two women to the Public Service Commission this year to fill the present vacancy and the other that will arise in the Fall? MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the member knows, there has been a fair amount of progress in the last number of years in terms of the makeup of boards and so on.

I have seen summaries that indicate to me, depending on the department, that in some departments, with regard to appointments, women are by far in the majority, in other department they are not, and maybe down as low as 30 per cent of appointments have been women. But, on balance, in terms of appointments to positions. there has been a lot of progress made. Now, over the next short while, as terms come due, we will also be making appointments to various boards and commissions and everything else. I hesitate to give the member a commitment on any two particular appointments.

I would say to the member I believe that in the very near future, a matter of weeks, there are appointments coming out that she will be extremely pleased with. In fact, the attempt to get capable women to agree to take appointed positions within the structure is going on and is. if anything. intensified. So we are trying to make sure that there is a proper balance in terms of the physical appointments that are made. I think if you give us some time. and as the appointments come No. 22 (Afternoon) Rll65

out, you will see that we are not going to be lacking in that regard. However, I hesitate to make a commitment on one particular one. The second part of the question had to do with thE! role of women !Ali thin the Civil Service, and spE!cifically what plans do I have to ensure that women get their rightful role within the Civil Service. I take that to mean that the member means there is an acceptable representation of women amongst management. I think that is primarily what she is concerned with, because there are certain typical role jobs that mean that women make up a large proportion of the Civil Service.

But you are talking mainly about the management section: if women are appointed on merit into the management sector of the Civil Service in adequate proportion. All I can say to the member with regard to that is that obviously the pay equity is a move towards getting away from sterotyping in roles. Obviously, a year down the road the member will be able to compare figures, because she will have access to any figures in terms of the kinds of promotions, and so on, that are made within the Civil Service.

All I can say is that I suggest the member compare what is there now with what will be there a year from now and, at that point, see if in fact there has been any movement. If there has not be!en, then she can blame me. I fully accept that. I would also like to talk in terms of going be!yond the Civil Service and the encouragement of getting away from stereotyping, and so on, in the private sector. Once we straighten our own House out totally, then we intend to go to L1166 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI the private sector and try and do the same kind of thing we will do in the Public Service.

All I can say to the member is wait and we will see. I have been in this position for eight weeks, and I know this is getting to sound like a broken record. The member wil 1 realize that my first responsibility when I carne in was the budget. That took five or six weeks, a lot of time. MR. SIMMS: You only records. MR. BAKER: had to consult the In fairness, the departmental stuff had been done, but there had to be a rush put on the rest of it because there was no chance to get it done. I would say the member for Grand Falls should have seen that it was done before the election. But it was not, and that is fine.

I am just saying that that is what I found, and the budget took a lot of time. Then we wanted to get the House open, and that took some time, as well, in terms of getting things ready to make sure we had Interim Supply, the budget was ready for that, and so on, and we have done that.

I have spent some time, not as much as I would have liked to, or maybe not as much as I should have; but I have spent some time, and will continue to spend more time over the Summer with the Wornens Policy Office, because they are valuable too, and also more time with the other interest groups around the Province in terms of women 1 s issues. I really want to talk to them before I s·tart getting into trouble in terms of making the wrong decisions. I also want to put to them a major initiative that I would like to see happen over the No. 22 (Afternoon) Rll66

next year. What I would like to do is to undertake a major initiative to solve a major problem, rather than sort of try to solve a. lot of problems at the same time. I am getting around to that approach, and I am talking to thE! groups about targeting and trying to really solve a particular major problem in terms of women 1 s issues. All these things are ongoing, and I can assure the member that a year or two down the road, I do not think I will be found wanting. MR. CHAIRMAN : The hon. the member for Humber East.

MS VERGE: Chairperson, I am pleased with what I am hearing from this minister, but I would like to caution him that no matter how well-intentioned he is, and I happen to believe, honestly, that he is well-intentioned, the obstacles that have to be surmounted before women in the Provincial Public Service, or the broader society are going to advance meaningfully are perhaps far greater than he realizes. True progress is going to take more than one minister 1 s good intentions. There is going to have to be a reform of the whole system.

There is going to have to be a whole series of policies which will ensure conscious, deliberate action to give women a fair shake. Because, that is what we are talking about, a fair shake. One of the minister 1 s colleagues, the Minister of Education, who is not now in the House, said in one of our Estimates Committee meetings that to bring about true equality of opportunity in education between the rural and urban areas in our Province is L1167 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI going to have to take unequal spending.

He said there has to be unequal spending to achieve E!quality and I belieue, and I think he acknowledged seeing it this way too, that the same is true for achieving equality for women, there have to be, if you like, unequal measures and programs. Michelle Lansburg, in talking about affirmative action of this kind, pointE!d out that, in effect, in practice men have had an affirmative action program for centuries, and what women are looking for now is really an E!nd to that kind of privileged existence for men so that women just have an equal opportunity.

It is not so much a matter of special opportunities for women, it is a matter of neutralizing the special opportunities men have always E!njoyed so that, for once, there migh·t be some kind of true E!quality. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I just want to interrupt the hon. member for a moment. It is 4:00 p.m. Thursday and I want to inform the House of the questions for our Late Show at 4:30p.m. There are three questions: The first one from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is to the Premier.

He is not satisfied with the response to the question asked regarding the Minister of Health and The Conflict of Interest Act and the Regulations. The second question is from the hon. the member for St. John 1 s East (Ms Duff) and it, too, is to the Premier. She is not satisfied with the answer given by the Premier in response to the questions concerning a process of No. 22 (Afternoon) R1167

public information and consultation regarding the proposed Outer Ring Road. MR. R. AYLWARD : That was to the Minister of Environemnt and Lands. MR. SIMMS : Yes, that was to the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. CHAIRMAN : It says here, the answer given by the Premier. MR. SIMMS: It should be the Minister of Environment and Lands. That is just a clerical error . MR. CHAIRMAN : The third question is from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and it is to the Premier.

He is not satisfied with the answer given in response to a question raised about \:he for•mer Executive Assistant to the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. The hon. East. MS VERGE: the member for Humber Chairman, to summarize then, I wish the President of Treasury Board and the Minister for the Status of Women well with his stated objectives, and I am anxiously awaiting his special initiative.

I would strongly advise him to listen carefully when he meets uli th women's groups and to try to ensure that his good ideas are put into practice by putting in place deliberate strategies and a mechanism for measuring his own progress. Because he may underestimate the power of the buddy s y s t em , and the budd i e s wi t h Ll168 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI the power are men; thE!re arE! not very many women in positions of influence in our government or in our Prov·ince, for that matter. My last set of questions for the minister have to do with what he sees as priorities for action as Status of Women Minister?

Among the issues I see are poverty, violent crime against women and children, and the inadequate provision of public services, with women's needs not being met properly. I am wondering, though, what his particular views are. What issues does he see as deserving of priority attention? What are some of his particular goals for his term as Status of Women Minister? MR: CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader. MR. BAKER: Government Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

House They are very difficult questions to answer, and I have to kind of think first, simply because as soon as you start picking out priori ties you immediately open yourself up to comments: 'Well, what about this? Is this not important? Is something else not important?' - and so on. I would say to the han. member that I agree with her that the whole problem of violence against women, the battered wives and children and so on, in terms of the status of women is a very serious problem and has to be dealt with, and I hope it will be. It is one of the things I would like to see dealt with now.

I just want to say this one thing to the member in tE!rms of a stress, or something that I believe if it is handled would make a great difference in the Province in a lot of areas, and No. 22 (Afternoon) R1168

that is the problem of the single mother . I t hi n k that a f f e c t s s o many departments of government, and many areas of our lives. By and large, in terms of the battered syndrome, these women when they leave then become single parents in a sense, and how do they survive? How do they get along in the world? I think that is a problem that needs to be dealt with. It rnay not, in some people 1 s minds, be the singJ.e most important problem, it is one that perhaps is solvable.

Many problems are attitude problems that take a long time to solve, and you arE! trying to overcome an attitude that has been around for centuries, it is not easily solved. It is not a simple matter of hiring a PR person to go out and push the buttoms, and so on, you arE! dealing with an attitude that has been there for centuries, and I do not know how you change it. All I can say is that there are problems which I believe are solvable, and one of them is the problem of the single parent. That is a solvable problem, and I would like to solve that.

My goal, quite simply, over the next three and-a-half years, or whatever it happens to be, is to make a difference. If, at the end of that time I see that I have made a difference for the better, then I think that is a general goal. How I go about doing it, will I be successful in making a difference in terms of solving the problem of the single mother, I do not know. But I am going to try. I would like to make a difference in the next three and a half years, and that is my general goal. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Opposition House Leader . L1169 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to ask a bunch of questions now of the President of the Council, and perhaps the Premier in its capacity as Minister Responsible for Intergovernmental Affairs . Under Heading 2.2.10.06, Page 18, under Offshore Fund Administration, there is an amount of $31,200 in the estimates for Purchased Services. Last year there was nothing but $100. I would like him to tell me what that is specifically. He might want to make a note of these, because I am going to ask four or five while I am standing. 2.2. 10.06, Purchased Services, $31,000 approximately, under Offshore Fund Administration.

In his capacity as President of Treasury Board, on the next page 20, again under 0 and M, Organization and Management, 2.3.07 .05 Professional Services, there is an amount of $136,000 and I would like the minister to explain what that is going to be used for. Last year it. tAJas $17,000 or something. Continuing on to page 21, in his capacity as President of Treasury Board, under Human Resource Management - Systems Development, could he explain what the funding there is required for, $154,000 in salaries? That is new salaries. There was nothing spent last year. MR . BAKER : What page is that? MR.

SIMMS: Page 21, 2.3.11, you will see the new amount for salaries $154,000. There was nothing last year. It is for new positions, I guess. And under Professional Services, that same Head, you will see there No. 22 (Afternoon) R1169

is a significant in~rease in Professional Services, from $126,000 up to $475,000. We would like to know what that is for. And to the Premier in his capacity as Minister for Interngovernmt::~ntal Affairs, or to the President of Treasury Board, whoever is going to make note of it, under Executive and Administrative Support, page 22, 2.4.01.10, there is an amount there for Grants and Subsidies $154,000. The minister sees the amount I am talking about? This year $154,000, last year $44,000. What is that for?

Finally, perhaps the Minister of Energy might wish to comment on this, or the President of Treasury Board, or whoever might have the most knowledge of this -the Premier is gone -on page 24 of the Estimates, under Intergovernmental Affairs Secretariat, there is a Heading, 2 . 4 . 0 7 , d e a 1 i n g with the H i be r n i a Project -Implementation and Monitoring. Of course, we see that the amount provided for in the estimates is considerably less than that expended last year. It was $604,000 last year, this year you have provided only $380,000 in the budget. Does that reflect something in a negative way?

What exactly is the reasoning for less, almost half the amount of funding required this year as opposed to last year? If it is not something negative, as the minister has indicated by shaking his head, maybe he can tell us why when he gets an opportunity to comment. Perhaps the minister can respond to those few questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader. Government House L1170 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The first ques·tion had to do u..Jith Purchased Services under Offshore Fund -Administration, an amount of $31,200.

That is basically to provide the cost for the printing of brochures. That is the purpose of that. MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) brochures? MR. BAKER: Not specifically, no. print a great deal, I $31,000. You cannot suppose, for MR. GIBBONS: You are talking about the question we had (inaudible) thousand? MR. BAKER: No. MR. SIMMS: He is answering a question I asked on Offshore Fund -Administration. MR. BAKER: I am not sure specifically what brochures, but obviously they have a need to publish some brochures. MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible) last year publish any (inaudible). MR. BAKER: Yes, they probably did need last year.

I do that Heading. did not not see a not have Professional Services, under Organization and Management. MR. SIMMS: The ministE!r is not going to skip over without explaining what those brochues were for now, is he? MR. BAKER: No. 22 (Afternoon) R1170

I just do not know wh at brochures are . If someone find out for me, fine. Maybe Minisl:er of Energy knows, it offshore related . MR . SIMMS: We are asking questions obviously we expect to answers . The President of Treasury Board will have to the answers . MR. BAKER: Yes, that is r·ight, and I answering to the best of knowledge at the present time. MR. SIMMS: The answer is no . MR. BAKER: th e can the is and gE!t the get am my not no . for the I do not the titles No, no . The answer is The answer is that was printing of brochures. know specifical1y what of the brochures are - MR.

SIMMS : Are they brochures with the Premier's picture on it, or what? MR . BAKER: or how many pages long they would be, or whether there are glossy photographs on all four or six panels. MR. SIMMS : The reality is the minister does not know what they are for at all . MR. BAKER : I have no concept of that . All I know is there is a need for the printing of some brochures . MR. RIDEOUT : We want to know before the Head passes. MR. SIMMS: Yes, we would li.ke to know before Ll171 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI we pass the Head . MR . BAKER: All right.

I can tell you what it is not for, it is not for publicity associated with the party that I represent. It is not that. MR . SIMMS: How do you know, if you do not know what they are for . MR . BAKER : I know what it is not . MR . SIMMS: But you do not know what they are for . MR . BAKER : I know what it is not . MR . SIMMS: Anyway . thE! minister will get the answer before we pass the Head. MR. BAKER : Perhaps. MR . SIMMS: Then we do not pass the Head. that is all. MR. BAKER : Well, that is fine .

Organization and Management - 05 - Professional Services, $136,200, which I believe, if I can find that now, is a tremendous increase. Last year there was $17,100 spent. This $136,200 relates to the contracting of Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Staff this year. MR. SIMMS : Additional staff? MR. BAKER: Pardon? No . 22 (Afternoon) R1171

MR. SIMMS: Would you say it again? sorry. MR. BAKER: I am Contracting Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Staff, and it has to do with consultants for the Secretariat. These are people who will be working with government for a period of time developing programs, and so on, and it is an expense of government when we use their staff to develop programs for us. So it is a computer expense. MR. SIMMS: What programs are you developing? MR. BAKER: I do not know specifically what the programs are. The same story. MR. SIMMS: The minister will try to get the answer? MR. BAKER: They are information consultants. MR.

SIMMS: The minister wil1 try and get the answer, will he? MR. BAKER: Human Resources Management, I believe, was the next one. Let me see if I can now find that for the m~;:~mber. MR. SIMMS: There is a half million dollars more there. MR. BAKER: Obviously, for some reason, there were no salaries paid in that unit last year. This is a new unit it must be -in terms of personnel.

They are developing a human resource management system, as they refer to it, and it has to L1172 June 29. 1989 Vol XLI do with the area of Treasury Board that is concerned t.ui th developing, and which has a variety of programs developed in regard to the employees in government. It relates to questions that were previously asked, I bE!lieve by the member for Humber East. They are developing programs for employees in the Public Service. MR. SIMMS: What professional servicE! s wLll bE• used then? What is that? Is that contracting out too, or equipment or what? MR. BAKER: Some of it is computer.

I am not sure how much of it is development of software and how much of it is other, such as consultants from the outside. I am not sure how much, but I could check into that and find out, obviously. MR. SIMMS: I would like to know if you are hiring outside consultants - MR. BAKER: Hiring who? MR. SIMMS: who are they? What are they being paid? and the like. These ar·e just normal questions. WE! are not asking too much, I do not think. MR. BAKER: Well, if we were planning to hire outside consultants MR. SIMMS: You would not hire Peter Lougheed, I know. MR.

BAKER: we would not, number one, say who they are going to be, because that would mean we were picking them ahead of time and that we No. 22 (Afternoon) R1172

have in mind which consultants we are going to use. MR. SIMMS : But do you know if you are? MR . BAKER: IF we were going to use consultants sorn(: 'time during thE! fiscal year, then, obviously, we would contract out and - MR. SIMMS: Yes, but if you do not this is for, maybE! already contracted out. MR. BAKER: know what you have we would not have any plans ahead of time to hire specific consultants. Now, I do not know how it used to work before, but that is not the way it works now. MR. SIMMS: But does the minister know for sure? Do you know For sure you have not hired these consultants? MR.

BAKER : That is right . I will get the information for the member. MR. SIMMS : So you are not sure . MR. BAKER: The Energy Minister could comment on that $380,000. I would say to the member for Grand Falls, that that is not less. Last year there was $302,000 budgeted, this year $380,000, which is a fairly large increase . As a matter of fact, it is 17 per cent or 18 per cent over the budgeted amount for last year.

I only assume that if, for instance, it becomes necessary in terms of the Hiber·nia project to expend more money in terms of professional services, or whatever, than is budgeted, then we v.li 11 h a v e to d o s o , j u s t 1 i k e Ll173 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI the government did last year in its budget. As I say, it budgeted for $302,000 and spent $604,000, double· the amount. Who knows ! If things happen in an unexpected fashion, as obviously they did last year, then we may have to double the $380,000, or triple it, depending on conditions.

But we are projecting that we t.1.1i.ll nE!ed that much of an increase, from $302,000 to $380,000, the budgeted increase for this year over last year. So it is a fair increase over the budgeted amount for last year. Now, did I miss one? missed one somewhere. MR. SIMMS: Yes . Page 22 . MR . BAKER: What page? MR. SIMMS: I believe I Grants and Subsidies in Intergovernmental 2.4.01.10, page 22 . MR. BAKER: Affairs, That is under Intergovernmental Affairs. MR. SIMMS: Executive Subsidies . MR . BAKER : Support, Grant and Under Executive and Administrative Support. MR .

SIMMS : One hundred and fifty-four thousand dollars. MR. BAKER: Grants and Subsidies is the on~ you are concerned about. Last year there was $44,000 spent, $52,000 budgeted and this year $154,000 budgeted. The $154,000 No. 22 (Afternoon) R1173

has to do with funding for the Province1s contribution to the operation of the Canadian Intergovernmental Conference Secretariat, and, also, the grant by the Province to the New England Governor1s Eastern Canada Premier 1 s Secretariat. So the total amount is taken up with those two itE!ms, as far as I can ascertain. Now, was there one more? MR. SIMMS: No. MR. BAKER: I thought thE!re were quite a few more. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the Leader. MR. SIMMS: Opposition House Well, pE!rhaps it seemed like quite a few more because the minister has not provided answers to any of them yet. Mr.

Chairman, can the minister elaborate just a tiny little bit. I do not expect him to go out of his way or anything to get all the answers for us, but he did say on just about every question that he was not quite certain and he was going to get the information. I will take him at his word and expect him to provide the information to the House at the earliest opportunity.

But, back to this one, Grants and Subsidies, the $154,000 figure he just addressed, the contribution to the New England Governors and Eastern Canadian Premiers, and also the contribution to the Canadian Intergovernmental Affairs Conference Secretariat, can the minister tell us why the amount L1174 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI would be $154,000 this year when last year it was only $44,000? Were not the same contributions made to both those bodies? Have the fees increased dramatically, or are we paying a new fee to one of these two bodies? Perhaps, in the past, we were only contributing to one, I am not sure.

I do not know myself, but I am sure the minister will find out or can tell me as soon as he stands; he would not even have to check that onE! out. But the others I am sure he will check out. In view of the fact that we have a few minutes remaining before the Late Show, I would be interested in hearing the Minister of Mines and Energy comment on the question I posed; the President of the Council tried to answer it and did a miserable job. ·He had absolutely no idea, not a clue, not a click, as to why the funding is so much reduced from last year1s total expenditure.

I know the Minister of Mines and Energy is very anxious to get on his feet. He has been up four or five times and has not had a chance yet, but I will sit down and give him a chance. Before we get to the Late Show and before we pass the Heads, I would like to know the answer to that Grants and Subsidies question. Why the big variance in that from last year to this year, if there were ttJJo groups? Maybe we can get an answer before we call the Heads? MR. BAKER: The Minister of Energy has the answer. MR. SIMMS: No, he cannot answer this question on Grants and Subsidies.

He is going to talk about the energy one, but you are going to get the answer to Grants and Subsidies. No. 22 (Afternoon) R1174

DR. GIBBONS: A couple of points: The question on Offshore Fund ·- Administration you raised, the $30,000 extra for Purchased Seruices, that is for a brochure to basically describe the projects that haue been initiated so far, totalling about $250 million under the Offshore Deuelopment Fund. They are going to print a brochure this year showing what has been accomplished to date under the Fund. There is about $50 million left in the Fund to be allocated to future projects. The other dollars in that subhead just refer to the salary for the co-ordinator and some related expenses that are ordinary operating costs.

But the extra is the brochure that is being done. MR. SIMMS : You would hau e thought the President of Treasury Board would have had that information at his finger tips, would you not? DR. GIBBONS: Of course. MR. SIMMS: The next question . DR. GIBBONS: The question releuant to the reduction of the amount for consulting seruices is that the fiscal negotiating committee has done an assessment of what they consider to be necessary this year to conclude the negotiations and in their assessment they will not need any more than about $380,000. That is why the budget amounted to $384,000. MR.

CHAIRMAN : The han . the Leader. MR. SIMMS: Opposition House L1175 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI That was a uery good answer and I appreciate it. I thank the minister for his opennE!SS and his forthrightness, and I would urge him to haue supper or dinner with the President of Treasury Board and President of the Council and maybe giue him a fE!W tips on how to be more forthcoming in ansWE!rs and giue a bit more detail.

Is the President of Treasury Board going to respond to my question about the wide uariance in the Grant and Subsidies subhead of Intergouernmental Affairs Secretariat, from $44,000 last year to $154,000 this year? Does he haue the answer now? Is he prepared to give me that answer? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMS: He is not prepared or he does not haue the answer? I am going to sit to let the minister answer. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAKER : I would like to inform the member that I do not know the details of that $154,000.

I am assuming that there 'is a standard fee allocated to members who attend the New England Gouernors/Eastern Canada Premiers Conference, who are part of that. There is an allocation paid by each of the Eastern prouinces and the Gouernors of the states. So there is an allocation that is diuided up, I assume according to population - I will find out for sure - and so we are paying our share of that. I am assuming that the Canadian No. 22 (Afternoon) R1175

Intergovernmental Conference Secretariat is also set up the same way, and that there is a fee charged, an allocation made to each province -to each government I should say, because it takes in more than the province. Each government has a certain allocation to pay to the cost. What I arn saying to the member is that when you add together the one charge or aJ.location from the Eastern Premiers and Governors Conference to the bill from the Canadian Intergovernmental Conference Secretariat, you wi11 get $154,000. MR.

SIMMS: y·· say -Eo-the han. the President of Treasury Board that is an excellent explanation, except last year, I am assuming, that when you added together the bill for the Canadian Intergovernmental Affairs Secretartiat and the bill from the Canadian Eastern Premiers and Governors Secretariat, apparently it only came to $44,000. This year it comes to $154,000, a $100,000 increase. All I am simply asking is why is that at variance? Did we not pay the same two bills last year? Were the fees that much lower last year? Have they been substantially increased this year, by $100,000 or what?

That is a very clear, succinct question. The Minister of Finance even understands it. I see him nodding. He cannot understand why the President of Treasury Board cannot answer this question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the President of Treasury Board. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have given the answer as to what L1176 June 29, 1989 Vol XLI the $154,000 is. I will certainly try my best to find out why it is that last year only $44,000, I believe, was provided, I am assuming again, to the same two bodies. It is very unusual. Either there has been a tremendous increase in fees, or last year bills were not paid.

There obviously is some reason. I would expect that whatever minister was in my position last year at this tirne should know what the $44,000 was for. I am assuming that. I will go back and try to see if the minister who was in my position last year at this time can straighten this out for me, as to what that $44,000 was spent on last year. I will try to get an answer for the member. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Chairman, I can say to the President of Treasury Board that his predecessor, at t.his time last year, knew what the answer was for the $44,000. AN HON. MEMBER: And forgot it. MR. SIMMS: No!

I am as king the present minister to give the House the answer for this year's, and why the difference between this year's and last year's. MR. BAKER: Oh, no! happened year?' MR. SIMMS: Your question was, 'What that it was so low last No, no! We are asking why is it so high this year. MR. BAKER: I have told you what it is for this year. No. 22 (Afternoon) R1176

MR. SIMMS : You see, it is just like pulling teeth, Mr. Chairman. You cannot get answers out of these ministers ..

I have now asked the President of Treasury Board six questions in a row and every question I asked - members over there are even smiling about it, because they saw it as well - he did not know the answers to: 1 I will have to check it out.' 'This is for a brochure.' 1 What kind?' ' I do not k now , ' ' What i s the difference in the grant?' 'I do not know, but I will check it out.' The purpose of holding these discussions and asking these questions in this forum is precisely to get answers from the government. But if the government does not provide the answers, then the Opposition are left with little choice. A