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April 13, 2022

SOCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Siobhan Coady, MHA for St. John's West,

substitutes for Paul Pike, MHA for Burin - Grand Bank.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Lela Evans, MHA for Torngat Mountains,

substitutes for Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's Centre, for a portion of the

meeting.

The

Committee met at 5:30 p.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Gambin-Walsh):

Minister Coady, I just want to make sure you can hear us.

S. COADY:

I can very well.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

Perfect.

Siobhan, if you can wave if you need to say anything –

S. COADY:

Okay.

Thank

you, I will.

CHAIR:

Okay.

I want

to call the meeting to order. This is the Estimates of Children, Seniors and

Social Development and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. The

substitutes for this evening are: Burin - Grand Bank, we have substituting St.

John's West, Siobhan Coady; and St. John's Centre –

J. DINN:

(Inaudible) and then my

substitute is taking over.

CHAIR:

Okay, perfect. Substituting

for Children, Seniors and Social Development department, we have MHA Evans.

C. COADY:

Madam Chair, I am not

substituting; I am here –

CLERK (Hawley George):

If you would like

to put your earpiece in, the minister is speaking.

CHAIR:

Yes.

CLERK:

Go ahead, Minister.

S. COADY:

Sorry, I thought you

indicated that I was substituting but I believe I am here –

CHAIR:

You are substituting for MHA

Pike who is on the Committee.

S. COADY:

Oh, okay.

Thank

you. Got it.

CHAIR:

Have we come to an agreement

of how we are going to work with the independent Member?

CLERK:

Maybe just confirm it with

the Committee, Chair.

CHAIR:

We will do the Official

Opposition, Third Party and we will allow the unaffiliated Member –

J. DWYER:

I think it went through us

twice and then it goes to them for 10 (inaudible) –

CLERK:

Ten on each head; that's the way the Committees have been doing it previously at

the end of the questions here.

CHAIR:

All right, so we will do two

rounds and then we'll allow the independent Member to speak.

CLERK:

At the end, the independent

Members will have 10 minutes, when the others are finished. That's the way we

have been doing it.

P. TRIMPER:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

So at the very end when the

parties are finished speaking here, we'll give you 10 minutes on the clock for

each heading.

P. TRIMPER:

(Inaudible.)

CHAIR:

So for each heading.

P. TRIMPER:

So will I have enough time

to ask questions in each department or do I have to wait until the end of the

session –

CHAIR:

Each group, before it's

called and voted on, you will be permitted 10 minutes. Thank you.

Okay so

we'll probably take a break at 6:45 if everyone is good with that.

I just

want to remind everyone to wait for your light to come on and to identify

yourself and if your light doesn't come on, just do a gentle wave and they will

see you and turn your light on. Please don't adjust the chairs. We've had some

incidents of chairs being adjusted. Water coolers are on each side.

First,

I am going to get the Committee Members and staff to introduce themselves and

then I'll get the minister to introduce his staff. We'll adopt the minutes and

when we call the groups, the minister can then speak for introductory remarks

before we start.

we'll just start over here.

J. DWYER:

Jeff Dwyer, MHA for the

District of Placentia West - Bellevue, shadow Cabinet minister for CSSD,

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing and Income Support.

C. YOUNG:

Carlson Young, Political Staff.

J. DINN:

Jim Dinn, MHA for St. John's

Centre. To my right is Scott Fleming one of our researchers and holding up the

rear and anchoring us, Lela Evans, MHA for Torngat Mountains.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MHA

Reid.

S. REID:

Scott Reid, MHA, St.

George's - Humber.

D. HAMLYN:

David Hamlyn, Sessional Support, GMO.

L. STOYLES:

Lucy Stoyles, MHA, Mount

Pearl North.

P. TRIMPER:

Perry Trimper, independent

MHA for Lake Melville.

CHAIR:

Thank you very much.

S. COADY:

And I'm Siobhan Coady.

CHAIR:

Siobhan, I'm not certain how

I'm going to remember you there,

S. COADY:

That's okay. Just by way of

introduction, I am present. I'm here. I'll wave.

Thank

you.

CHAIR:

We have Minister Coady.

J. ABBOTT:

John Abbott, Minister for

Children, Seniors and Social Development, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Corporation, and MHA for St. John's East - Quidi Vidi.

I'll

ask the staff to introduce themselves.

J. MULLALEY:

Julia Mullaley, CEO for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

M. TIZZARD:

Mike Tizzard, Executive Director of Finance and Corporate Services.

M. THOMAS:

Melanie Thomas, Director of Policy, Housing and Homelessness with NL Housing.

J. MERCER:

Joe Mercer, Executive Director for Regional Operations.

D. JACKMAN:

Doug Jackman, Director of Finance, NL Housing.

CHAIR:

Okay, I have the minutes; I

ask the Committee to adopt the minutes of April 12, 2022.

J. DWYER:

So moved.

CHAIR:

So moved.

motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

CHAIR:

I'll ask the Clerk to call

the first subheading or group.

CLERK:

For the Estimates of the

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Housing Operations and

Assistance: 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

The Estimates of the

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, Housing Operations and

Assistance, 1.1.01 inclusive.

Minister.

J. ABBOTT:

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks,

colleagues and staff, for being here this evening. I've got a few opening

comments around the work that the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation

is doing and has done over the past year to set the stage for some of the

questions.

minister responsible for the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. I'm

certainly pleased to be here this evening to discuss our Estimates for the

corporation.

Everyone deserves a safe and affordable place to call home. Through

Budget 2022 , our government is

pleased to provide an investment of $47 million to the Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation, leveraging a further $52 million in federal funding and

enabling the delivery of vital programs and services that address a diverse

range of housing needs throughout the province.

Cost-shared investments of $58 million within those sums will support operations

of our public rental housing portfolio, as well as partner-managed and

co-operative housing throughout the province, providing homes for over 13,000

low-income individuals and families.

Over

$15 million will be invested in repairs and renovations to our public housing

rental units. This includes $1 million to complete major repairs on vacancies so

these can once again become homes for families in need.

Through

the budget, government will continue to invest $8 million to further support

housing affordability through the provision of heat subsidies to our tenants. An

additional $2.4 million under the Low Carbon Economy Leadership Fund will

provide for the electric conversion of oil furnace systems upgrading and other

energy efficiency improvements on 178 of our units over the next two years.

Budget 2022

also invests $14.4 million to provide rental assistance in the private market,

expanding available housing options and assisting over 2,000 low-income

households to find safe, affordable homes. Over 50 per cent of these clients are

seniors.

Launched this past year and starting in November, we have the new $74 million

Canada – Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Benefit, which will further expand

portable rental assistance in the private market for an additional 800

households over the next six years.

We have

an investment of over $11 million for home repair programs that will support

low-income homeowners throughout the province, again, most of whom are seniors.

This financial assistance program will support much-needed home repairs and

remain in their homes.

Budget 2022

also includes investments to work with our many and valued partners in

addressing homelessness throughout the province. Over $7 million will provide

emergency accommodation, food, transportation and supports to individuals who

are experiencing or at risk of homelessness. An investment of over $7 million

through the Supportive Living Program will support community-based partners to

prevent homelessness and provide individualized supports to foster long-term

housing stability.

Additionally, an investment of $9 million will continue to support the work of

the 10 transition houses throughout the province to provide safe accommodations

and services to support women and their children fleeing intimate partner

violence.

Collectively, these investments designed to address housing and homelessness

issues in our province are critical to the social, financial and physical

well-being of individuals, families and our communities. We look forward to

continuing to work in partnership with our federal, municipal and Indigenous

governments as well as our many community partners to ensure all Newfoundlanders

and Labradorians have a place to call home.

Thank

you for the opportunity to highlight these important

Budget 2022 investments. I certainly

look forward to the opportunity to respond to the questions from my colleagues.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister.

All

right. We shall start with MHA Dwyer. Put the time on the clock.

J. DWYER:

Thank you very much,

Minister, for your opening remarks. I appreciate it and I appreciate the fact

that your staff are here to help answer questions and the support that is on

this side to ask those questions.

The

first question, I guess, is can we obtain a copy of your briefing binder?

J. ABBOTT:

Absolutely.

J. DWYER:

Okay. Thank you very much.

And are

you applying zero-based budgeting for this Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

industry?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, we are.

J. DWYER:

The budgeted amount for

Grants and Subsidies is $137,100 more for 2022-2023. Can you please explain

that?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, there are throughout

the entire budget, which is $122 million, give or take, a number of variances,

but the main factor is around the negotiated and approved salary increases for

the staff at the corporation.

J. DWYER:

Why is there no federal

revenue in this year's budget?

J. ABBOTT:

Again, this shows the net,

which is the contribution that the province will be providing to the

corporation. The balance of our budget would show, I think it's $52 million in

federal funding going towards our overall budget.

J. DWYER:

Okay. Thank you.

You are

spending $563,400 more than last year. Is that due to budgeted salaries as well?

J. ABBOTT:

I'm going to ask Mike

Tizzard to respond to that particular question, if that's okay.

M. TIZZARD:

The increase you're seeing

there is related to the salary increases that the minister noted. That's the

total that you're seeing on the bottom line for Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing. Outside of employees at the corporation, there's also an increase this

year for the transition house employees; they fall under the group homes

agreement that the provincial government has with all those transition houses.

So we basically are the pass-through for the salary increases for those as well.

The

other difference there is the revenue that netted out to zero this year that you

alluded to. That's related to the low-carbon economy fund for one of our home

repair programs for oil. We seen lower uptake on that last year so we have some

surplus funding we're carrying forward. That funding comes from the Department

of Environment and Climate Change. So they've instructed us basically this year

to use up that excess funding first and when we do that, go to them and we'll be

reimbursed for our expenses that way.

that's why the revenue is gone to zero this year. The money is still going to be

received, but it's going to be received by the Department of Environment.

J. DWYER:

Okay. Thank you.

What is

the current waitlist for rent supplement?

J. ABBOTT:

I'll ask Julia to respond to

that.

J. MULLALEY:

So the waitlist in total is 1,930. We don't differentiate between our units

and/or the rent supplement so there's one application and whatever becomes

available that meets the needs of the individual, they'll be offered either a

unit and/or a rent supplement, whatever one becomes available first.

J. DWYER:

Okay. What is the wait-list

to receive a unit?

J. MULLALEY:

The timeline?

J. DWYER:

No, the –

J. MULLALEY:

So 1,930 is the wait-list currently.

J. DWYER:

Okay. So last year you noted

you were negotiating with the federal government to increase the number of

units. You noted in two years you would be down by one-third and last year was

somewhere around 1,500. I'm just wondering, with that increasing, do we still

think that timeline is feasible?

J. ABBOTT:

So a couple of things. One

is we negotiated with the federal government with the Canada Housing Benefit and

as a result we will see from last year and this year, we'll see a reduction

depending – or an increase, whichever way you want to look at it – in terms of

rent supplements that we will be able to fund.

So if

you did the math that would then bring it down from now 1,900 to 1,300. The

challenge we have of course is that the number of families coming forward

looking for a unit or rent supplement combined continues to increase.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

What is

the wait-list under the Home Repair Program and what is the current cap limit?

J. MULLALEY:

Again, there is actually no

wait-list for the Home Repair Program right now. As an individual comes in and

applies, it will get processed. So there is no specific wait-list right now.

For the

Home Repair Program, when you say the cap, are you referencing the income limits

or rent?

J. DWYER:

No, how much they can

obtain.

J. MULLALEY:

Under the Home Repair Program it is $5,000; Labrador is $6,500. There is a loan

availability as well of $12,500; $15,500 for Labrador. Under the Home

Modification Program, it is a $7,500 grant and a loan of $10,000.

J. DWYER:

Do you feel that, with the

escalating costs of materials, would they need to increase that cap?

J. MULLALEY:

We are actually currently reviewing that program now from the perspective of the

costs and the increase in costs.

J. DWYER:

Is there an inventory of

units to be sold based on the cost of repairs and a plan to construct new units?

J. ABBOTT:

We have a couple of areas in

the province where we are looking at how we develop or divest of units.

Marystown is an example where we are now talking to the town and the community

as to how best to use those units because there isn't a demand and – quote,

unquote – they're sort of locked up, boarded up and not being used. We're going

to divest of those, we think. We have a situation in Corner Brook very similar.

Those

are the two that are outstanding areas. Outside of that, all our other units

that we will be keeping, if they are not repaired by now they will be,

literally, over the next year or two years at the outside. We have funding in

this budget to do the major repairs that have been outstanding for some time.

J. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

What is

the current plan for homeless families and individuals?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, a couple of things.

First, we are required under our agreement with CMHC to have a three-year action

plan. We are in the process of revising that and we will have that done in short

order. In addition, we are using that as the basis of a larger provincial

housing and homelessness plan. We'll be doing consultations on that and then it

will be my job to bring that to government and then to the House to review our

future investments.

We are

also working closely with the federal government and there have been

announcements in the recent federal budget for additional funding for social

housing across the country. We, obviously, will be talking to them and

negotiating with them our share of those dollars so that we can invest in the

province.

But one

thing we have been doing and really focused on – before my time and certainly

now that I am here – is looking at the shelter system and making sure we improve

both on the services we are currently delivering and in expanding the non-profit

shelter system here in the province dealing with the homelessness that will need

that type of housing. We also want to expand supportive housing and we're doing

that. There's money in the budget to do that as well,

J. DWYER:

Thank you.

2019, 900 people registered as guests at the Gathering Place. Currently, there

are approximately 2,000 availing of the centre's services. How many of these

people are housed in less than ideal housing?

J. ABBOTT:

I don't know if I can answer

that question. We work quite closely with the Gathering Place, and the Salvation

Army here in St. John's will be taking in guests very soon in their new

facility. So we're working with them. The Gathering Place really are a – quote –

community/health centre, so they are providing overnight shelter for those that

are homeless; that do not have a place to call home at the present time; and

they're providing health services and other services. We're working with them

quite closely around the housing needs.

So one

of the things that this Canada Housing Benefit allows us to do is for people who

are ready to move into supportive housing as well as long-term rental, we can

support that and that's really our aim, and we have plans to expand those

services across the province.

J. DWYER:

I think you just answered

one of my other questions because I think, you know, we need to find a way to

get away from the emergency shelters and give more permanent housing would be

the goal I would hope for the corporation.

Last

year over a million dollars was paid to shelter operations and there was some

complaints to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing about spoiled food, urine on the

floor, locked laundry rooms and the list goes on. They are not staffed or

supervised by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing?

J. ABBOTT:

No, I think the issue you

may be referring to is we have both – in terms of our shelters, we have

non-profit shelters such as the Gathering Place and others, and then we have

for-profit shelters. However, if we get complaints and when we get complaints,

we respond to those immediately.

For the

private shelters, as some backdrop, we looked at our data over the past four

years. In terms of complaints on file, and that's all we can go with for the

moment, we had 44 complaints over four years. There were 20,000 shelter nights

over those four years.

Now, we

recognize – and I know there were questions in the House this week around that –

that if issues are going to arise we will deal with those. We have standards,

but we intend and are working on improving those, and there will be consistency

between the profit and non-profit shelter system on a go-forward basis.

J. DWYER:

That's usually a good way to

move forward, for sure.

How

many units are currently vacant, and is there ongoing work to modernize the

units for families?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, so we have several

hundred of what we call vacant. Within that are units that we will not be using

and we will be divesting. We have units that we set aside for special housing

needs in the community. For those that remain that are currently vacant, we will

be funding any of the repairs and maintenance required to make sure they are

brought back in to the housing stock for families, and that money is in the

budget.

So the

plan, and ideally by the end of this year, we will have any vacant units that

will be used and can be used available. That being said, from time to time,

people will move out and we will be constantly upgrading those units. We

announced money for Lab West just recently, for the vacant units up there, and

we'll have those ready within the year.

J. DWYER:

I think that's one of the

things that we've noticed the most, and I get questions about it all the time

from Newfoundland and Labrador Housing clients, is the turnover from the time a

client leaves until we get a new one in, there seems to be a longer period that

we'd like to see shortened. Obviously, the need is much greater now, and

expediting that would be to our benefit.

The

current supports are not sufficient to secure housing for the low-income earners

and people on fixed incomes. Would you agree?

J. ABBOTT:

No.

As I

mentioned, we have our existing stock of rental units, over 5,500, and they're

fully subscribed. We now have the Canada – Newfoundland and Labrador Housing

Benefit, so that's going to bring on more people to be able to rent in private.

That is 800 over the next couple of years. We are also looking at – and we are

ready to fund – some new shelter and housing units here in the province and that

is built into our budget.

Now,

what we are seeing – given recent economic conditions in the province – is that

there is certainly more pressure put on our system, but we are working within

the means that we have to address that. What I will say is that any individual

who needs a home or shelter, our objective is to work to get that in place.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

The

Members time has expired.

MHA

Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Thank

you, Minister, and thank you to the staff who showed up tonight.

Is it

possible to have an update on staffing numbers, both by region and type of

employment? I know there is some mention of this but do you have a breakdown of

that? If you have it here, fine. If not, that can be sent –

J. ABBOTT:

We can provide that.

J. DINN:

Has there been any

elimination due to attrition of staff?

J. ABBOTT:

We are just at the tail end

of our attrition. We have the equivalent of probably a position that we may have

to address but we're being able to, through our budgeting, protect the salary

budget, where we can. In fact, because of the additional federal-provincial

agreements in place we have actually had to hire staff so we've brought on, I

think, 17 or 19.

OFFICIAL:

Nineteen.

J. ABBOTT:

Nineteen staff over the past

year to help us deliver on our mandate, and examples to support us in our

shelter work in particular.

J. DINN:

How many of those will be,

let's say, inspectors who would be responsible for making sure that standards

are followed or make sure the shelter where people are going is up to standards.

I guess the other

part I am looking at is maintenance in particular.

J. ABBOTT:

Okay.

Maybe

what I'll do is ask Julia Mullaley just to give you a quick snapshot of how we

do the inspections and who's responsible for that.

J. MULLALEY:

So we actually did hire two new emergency housing officers more recently. We

added them into the staffing. So they will help support the calls as well – the

call volume as well as the inspections. So they are doing a

schedule up now.

They have been out more recently in the last couple of weeks inspecting the

shelters again.

There

was some COVID restrictions over the past year but they do go and do those

inspections and there will be a full

schedule to do that.

J. DINN:

And they would also go out

and do the physical inspections as well, right?

J. MULLALEY:

Yeah.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

terms of wraparound services provided to clients of NLHC, have there been any

innovations or improvements in the past year that have reduced siloing between

departments and led to improve the service delivery?

J. ABBOTT:

I think, Mr. Dinn, the answer is yes.

I know

Melanie Thomas is here and that's really a large part of the work she does is

working with all the other community agencies and departments that are involved

around housing matters particularly when it comes to those who are homeless or

at risk of homelessness.

And the

fact that we have brought, over the past couple of years, all government funding

into the Housing Corporation to focus our efforts on making sure we get it right

and that we have the resources to do that and that's paying dividends. But we

work, obviously, in the St. John's area with End Homelessness St. John's on a

regular and almost daily basis.

But

we've worked with The Gathering Place to support the work that they're doing;

working with the Salvation Army in the work they're doing. In Labrador, working

with the action team there and there are several housing and homeless coalitions

that have developed across the province. We work and consult with them on a

regular basis and get the input and then we obviously provide support to those

as well.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

In the

bilateral agreement with the federal government as part of the National Housing

Strategy, we have to commit to expanding the social housing stock by, I think it

was, 894 units. Is it possible to have an update on reaching that milestone?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, we can do that. One of

the things to that agreement is that we have to protect the existing public

housing stock. So, as a result, we are, with the federal government, finding the

dollars to, obviously, improve on the housing stock. So that's a very specific

condition of the funding on which we're obviously supportive of and at the same

time it is allowing us to expand.

J. DINN:

So if I'm understanding you

correctly, part of that 894 is about protecting the existing stock.

J. ABBOTT:

Yeah. So this would be in

addition, so we're currently planning and budgeting for the investments we need

to make now to reach those numbers.

J. DINN:

Okay. So have we started on

reaching those numbers?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes.

J. DINN:

Okay. Any update? Are we 200

in or – I'm just trying to get an idea of where we are with that.

J. ABBOTT:

Well, I'd say more in the

planning and getting ready to move forward, we're probably in the 100 to 200

range. This is a multi-year agreement so it's going to take some time to get it.

At the same time, we're trying to – wherever we can – move dollars into adding

to the housing stock, either that we manage but largely focused in the

community.

J. DINN:

Right. And multi-year, so

I'm assuming that you're looking at reaching this over the next two or three

years or something like that or –

J. ABBOTT:

Yeah, it's a seven- or

eight-year agreement.

J. DINN:

Oh, seven or eight, perfect.

J. ABBOTT:

But we're trying to move

that as fast as we can.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Is it

possible to have, then, a breakdown of how the $74.4 million from the Canada –

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Benefit will be invested and how much has been

spent since the announcement last August?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, we can provide that.

J. DINN:

Okay.

In last

year's Estimates, the minister mentioned a housing homelessness plan for the

province was under development. Any update on that?

J. ABBOTT:

As I mentioned earlier in

one of the questions, we're just finalizing the action plan, the three-year

action plan for CMHC. Once that's done, we'll roll that into our provincial plan

and we're looking to have that done summer, fall at the latest.

J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

With

regard to the grants under the Home Energy Savings Program, how many of these

non-repayable grants have been awarded in the past year?

J. ABBOTT:

It's 399.

J. DINN:

Is that up or down, or what

you expected?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, it's up this past year.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Just a

question with regard to housing and the shipping season in Torngat region and

district. So there's a five-month shipping season to get raw materials in there.

I'm just wondering, what are the plans, then, to ensure that there are materials

in the community year-round so that housing needs and repairs and that can be

addressed? Are there any plans to address this?

J. ABBOTT:

I'm going to ask Julia

Mullaley to respond in some details but one of the challenges that we have had,

despite all the best intentions over this past year to get more work done, is

that when the tenders came in they were exorbitant, well passed our budget and

we recognize the cost of doing business in Labrador and they were reflected in

our own numbers. So we have had to go back and come back with another plan to do

that. That is one of the delays, but I'll ask Julia to respond to that specific

question in terms of …

J. MULLALEY:

Conscious, obviously, of the shipping seasons and everything else in Labrador, I

think generally what we try to do is plan very early in the year so you will see

we just did our awarding now for units. There is another nine going out to

public procurement and we're trying to get those out as soon as possible,

appreciating that it is important to get the materials there.

The

other ones, really, is around a majority of all of that. We do some in-house,

but the majority are contractors who would certainly be aware of that as well.

So it is really getting the tenders out as early in the year as we can.

J. DINN:

If you can't find people in

the community to do the work or the contractors are limited, to the minister's

point, about the costs, is it possible then to bring in contractors from other

areas besides Happy Valley-Goose Bay – like outside the province to do the work,

especially if it is hard to get them at a reasonable price? Or is it just within

the area?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, the answer would be

yes. As a matter of fact, the reverse has happened. In doing some work in

Labrador West, we have had to bring from outside Labrador West and from other

parts of Labrador. We are open to any option that gets us to move those repairs

and upgrade as quickly as possible.

J. DINN:

I have time for one quick

question. I just want to go to – I think you mentioned at the beginning there

was $1 million to implement major repairs. Just curiosity then – I think at then

end of March 2021, there are 141 housing units that were unavailable for rent

due to needing major repairs. I am just trying to get an idea. Even with the $1

million, how many housing units are we looking at and when can we expect them up

and running?

J. ABBOTT:

With the money, as I

mentioned earlier, we've allocated in the last year's budget and money we have

in this year's budget will allow us to address all those major repairs.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

Thank you, Chair.

The

cost of food and fuel is making long-term housing increasingly inaccessible. Is

there a plan for long-term solutions instead of having to utilize emergency

shelters so often?

J. ABBOTT:

Certainly one of the things

we've been trying to do – wearing my other hat as Minister of Children, Seniors

and Social Development – is to identify how we can support, at the community

level, issues around food security, as an example.

wherever we can we work, certainly, with Food First NL to make that a reality.

One of the very successful programs, really, and initiatives is connecting

seniors here in St. John's and trying to move that approach across the province

where you are working with, in this case, seniors who are at risk and having the

same challenges – issues around cost of living, obviously, food security, mental

health issues at times and what have you.

They

are able to bring a team together to support them and help them find a suitable

accommodation with support. And the critical thing is with support. We've seen

in the past where we have an individual who has exhibited certain challenges.

We've put them in a house or an apartment and, within a month, the whole

arrangement breaks down. Why? Because there are no supports.

that's one of the things that we are constantly working on, expanding our

services there and the conversations I have had and am having with the federal

minister is around that. And I think there was an appreciation within the

federal system. It is one thing to spend billions on housing and if there are no

supports for those who need supports, then it's not going to achieve the

results.

That's

one of the areas that our team is certainly focused on. We've just funded 10

housing support workers throughout the community sector to help individual

groups work with their clients and guests to help them with long-term housing

solutions.

J. DWYER:

Make it more like a

wraparound support –

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, absolutely.

J. DWYER:

– as opposed to just a house

or a roof over your head.

Do you

have a report of the number of people in emergency shelters and the desired

outcomes?

J. ABBOTT:

We certainly are tracking

those that are coming in for every night – we will know. I don't think we are

doing a really good job in tacking outcomes per se but, that being said, we have

organizations like End Homelessness St. John's who are working and we work with

them to do just that, to see how we can improve where people are in their life

and where they want to be, what housing is needed for them and doing assessment

and, again, providing supports.

We'll

know we're successful when the demand for shelters goes down, for instance. And

we were seeing that trend down, up until almost this time last year, and then it

has accelerated through this summer, into the fall and into the winter. So

obviously there are challenges out there around accommodation and we're working

for those solutions.

J. DWYER:

Sure.

J. ABBOTT:

Julia's going to add.

J. MULLALEY:

I just wanted to highlight as well, because we work very closely with our

Reaching Home entities. There is $7 million that will come to our Reaching Home

entities, like End Homelessness St. John's here in the city, so that helps to

support a lot of this work as well, and we work very closely with them.

For

example, we partnered last year on positions to help really support individuals

to move out of the shelter and into more permanent, stable housing. This year as

well End Homelessness St. John's had just released an RFP for 18 positions, so

they're providing 18 positions focused solely on helping individuals move out of

the shelter, and we're coming also to the table with that Canada Housing

Benefit. So there's a Canada Housing Benefit waiting for every single one of

those individuals, and matching with the positions to move them out. So that's a

lot of work happening on that end as well.

J. DWYER:

Would they have, like,

social worker experience?

J. MULLALEY:

That's correct, yeah.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Can you

explain the breakdown of the $140 million to improve housing stability and

prevent homelessness, and where is the amount identified in the Estimates?

J. MULLALEY:

The $140 million referenced in the Budget Speech would be our total, provincial

and federal. So as the minister mentioned in the opening remarks, there is $47

million provincial that you see, but there is a significant amount of federal

funding, and our rental revenue of $22 million as well. So combined, that

provides the programs that you'd be familiar with, the rental housing program,

our home repair programs, our homelessness programs, so that's that budget.

J. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

current unsafe situation is emerging at an emergency shelter in Labrador, and

has been brought to our attention recently, including the removal of weapons.

What is being done to improve these conditions, and is there a plan to invest in

a shelter for the people of Labrador?

J. ABBOTT:

Working backwards, the

answer is yes, absolutely. Right now there is the action team in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay, which has 14 agencies involved, including ourselves, and they

were looking at identifying the right solution here. There's a consultant

working with them right now. We'll go to design and funding later this year.

That is the plan.

In the

meantime, we're working with the resources that we have in the community. The

Housing Hub, operated and funded by the Nunatsiavut Government – we obviously

support that financially as well. We're using the private accommodation there

with the Labrador Inn, working with them. We know that is not ideal; they know

that is not ideal, but right now that is a stopgap measure. We also fund, I

think it is, $3.6 million in supportive housing within that community as well.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

My last

question is that contractors were brought up earlier from a question from my

colleague, and my understanding is that contracts for repairs were pulled back

and no repairs were actually conducted. Can you explain the repeal of the

contracts?

J. ABBOTT:

I don't know about the

repeal of the contracts, unless there is something that Julia or have to

respond. We did have tenders out. They came in, but as I said earlier, they were

exorbitant in terms of their price. So we had to go back and rework all of that

and break those down. As a result, we now are able to award some work and get

that going.

J. DWYER:

Those tenders will go out

now?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, and there are some

going out as well, as Julia mentioned a few minutes ago.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Thank

you, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MHA

Dinn.

J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

I just

want to follow up and maybe jump ahead with something that my colleague said

with regard to supports for people. One of the questions we had that I was

looking at – I'm sure there must be clients who pose particular challenges to

being housed. I am understanding that some of the new housing that's up on

Froude Avenue has already suffered severe damage. That is the information that I

am getting from there, that people were put in, and I won't use the description;

it contains an expletive: they kicked the crap out of the place. So obviously,

we have people who have these difficulties and they need supports.

If we

are moving people around, how do we make sure that the supports are in place so

that – and Julia, sorry, I was speaking with you. We spoke on one issue up

there. What do we put in place to make sure that the people who live adjacent

can have a quiet enjoyment of their premises, but also that the people who also

deserve a right to a safe place to live have the supports they need? And that's

the big thing in a lot of this as well.

J. ABBOTT:

Mr. Dinn, I'll start, and

certainly, Julia and Melanie, if they want to add. Part of our approach here is

recognizing some individuals have unique needs, mental health and other issues,

in terms of placing them in a particular unit or whatever. So we screen as best

we can in those issues, but we do have social workers/housing officers, and

that's their job, to work with those individuals, work with their neighbours and

work through these issues and provide the supports where we can.

At the

same time, in the community – whether it's in the St. John's environment – we

involve Eastern Health, for instance. So they have nursing and other staff that

go around and work in the community to help if those, you know, if it requires

that type of support. And I am familiar with other parts of the city. In my own

district I've had to deal with those types of issues, and it does require

getting people around the table to figure out, all right, how do we support

these individuals? Because everybody has a right to their home – a home and

their home if they are there – and we've to figure this out. Sometimes it

becomes a challenge for neighbours when people, quote unquote, act out and we've

got to work with that. We work with the police, obviously, if needed and they

are sensitive to those situations. We have the mobile response team, as well, to

provide support.

there are a lot of supports around but sometimes it's just getting the right

people to make sure they have the situation addressed properly to bring in the

supports. We're loath to have to evict somebody, obviously. And if we go down

that road, which is not very often – like I said, we have over 55,000 units that

we are the landlord for. But then we will work with that individual to make sure

that they are housed.

J. DINN:

And I guess where I am going

with this – we have dealt with people who when they find out that they are being

sent to – I'll use this street in my district – and now the name escapes me. It

will come to me in a minute. But they will not – they panic: no, they do not

want to go there. And this is down in my district as well, so they – because

it's becoming more and more unsafe.

In the

other situation, there is one lady who was told – her neighbour, the troublesome

neighbour, was up all night and she said, well, you're going to have to learn to

sleep during the day. That was the advice that was given.

So I

guess in some ways we're dealing with a – I recognize that people need shelter,

but there's got to be something in place there so – there's not just

enforcement, not just police; that's all part of it – but the measures in place

that both people can cohabitate, more or less.

With

regard to – I'm just going to jump ahead because I've got a few minutes here,

and I suspect my colleague's not asking any more questions, so – I'm just

wondering has NLHC considered issuing promissory notes to landlords, accepting

tenants under the Rent Supplement Program?

Here's

what I mean: right now, for a tenant to move, they've got to come up with

usually a damage deposit of some sort, okay? Which, if they do, it's coming out

of the one pot. If it's issued through Newfoundland and Labrador Housing or

through some other agency, it's going to be clawed back from their income

support. And usually what it does, if they end up in a situation where it's an

untenable situation they're sort of stuck there, because they're not going to

come up with another deposit any time soon.

I'd be

interested in finding out as well – and I think I know what the answer would be

– is how many tenants actually get their damage deposit back? And they're not

going to challenge it. So if in this situation, I might recommend that would

save some money to the department, to your agency, that if I'm issuing a

promissory note, like, to a tenant that, here, you got a letter that says this

person is eligible for a damage deposit, and at the end if they decide to move

out and if there's actual damage, then it's up to the landlord to go say to the

department: You know what? They damaged my property, here is the proof, and now

I want my damage deposit back.

So in

terms of – it puts control back in – it means that the person who is coming up

with the money is not in that position to try to come up with it, gives them a

bit more freedom, also keeps the money in the department's pocket until needed

and puts it towards other – has that ever been considered? I don't know if I've

explained myself well.

J. ABBOTT:

I think I understand the

concept. Unless, again, Julia wants to add – nothing that I've had a

conversation on since I've been in this role, but one of the things we do foster

and try to foster obviously is independence for those coming forward so that

we'll provide – certainly when it comes to our rent supplements, which are what

we've introduced there, is affordability. So before the subsidy went to the

landlord, now the subsidy goes to the individuals. That's a move in that

direction. So we are trying to foster that.

I know

the concept, but for me right now, I don't see us going down that road. That

being said, we obviously work with individuals – if the damage deposit becomes

an issue, then we'll work with that individual to make sure that's not a

barrier.

J. DINN:

I've just been in a few

homes that your department pays the rent for and they are – well, I don't think

I'd put my dog in them, but, nevertheless, the fact is that – and they're stuck

there, the people are stuck there then as well.

Just

out of curiosity on that, how many inspections were done last year of private

rental houses by the NLHC? I'm just wondering, and how many fines were issued or

warnings or concerns? Because I'm assuming also that there are landlords that

you deal with who are problematic.

M. THOMAS:

If the question is related

to the rent supplement program, there were 171 individuals who were selected for

rent supplements in the prior years. So in advance of each selection and

awarding of the rent supplement, there would have been an inspection by our

engineering, technical staff.

J. DINN:

Okay. Is it possible to have

access to reports like that – to those reports?

J. ABBOTT:

Sure, whatever we have.

J. DINN:

Were there any landlords

that received warnings or fines or cautions as a result of inspections? Let's

say if you went back and they weren't up to standard.

J. ABBOTT:

Again, I don't know the

answer to that one.

M. TIZZARD:

So when we do the

inspection, if we find code deficiencies, for example, like smoke detectors not

working, we don't let the individual move in until it's fixed. That would be, I

guess, the follow-up or warning that would be there.

J. DINN:

What happens if the

standards are such that after, let's say there are complaints issued after, that

they don't maintain that code, is there a process to deal with that?

J. ABBOTT:

Termination of a lease, we

would support that kind of approach if need be.

But one of the things we've

done is, again, with the rent supplements, as Melanie was saying, now that we

will insist on any new lease that there is an inspection and meets our standards

before that agreement would be supported by us by the tenant. We're starting

down that road to be, shall we say, more present in the face of the landlord.

J. DINN:

Okay.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Dwyer, do you have any additional questions?

J. DWYER:

No, I don't.

I'd

just like to say thank you to the minister for his answers and the staff for

being here and all the work that you do. I know it's a very vulnerable and hard,

tough, job to house that many people and have that many units in your control.

Thank

you very much for everything you do and thanks for being here tonight, I

appreciate it.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

MHA

Dinn, do you have additional questions?

J. DINN:

Yes, I do. I'm trying to get

through these quickly.

What is

the process for determining which units are in need of repairs and what kind of

criteria are used to rank them in terms of high to low priority?

J. MULLALEY:

Generally, that would be through condition assessments and the regions all would

manage that from that perspective. That also flows into a five-year maintenance

plan so that condition assessments will flow in and prioritize on our five-year

plan.

J. DINN:

I have to ask a question,

the apartments on Anthony Avenue, the one with the birds nest in it, I'm just

wondering where that stands. I know I asked that last year and I think the year

before.

J. MULLALEY:

I know that was all awarded and tendered. I don't know – do you know?

M. TIZZARD:

The tender has been awarded. Joe, I don't know if construction started or is it

soon for spring.

J. DINN:

I know there is going to be

at least one eviction, a feathered one.

D. JACKMAN:

The tender was awarded and the construction is due to start now once the – in

the contractor's words – weather breaks.

J. DINN:

Excellent, excellent.

The

other area I was think of was Livingstone Street that is rapidly getting a

terrible reputation and a lot of good people living there.

asked last year, and we'd like again this year, a list of any companies that do

the subcontractor maintenance on NLHC, please.

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, that can be provided.

J. DINN:

Could you tell us the last time that the maximum threshold for the rent

supplement was increased? It's currently $800 per month, not including

utilities.

J. MULLALEY:

Under the rent supplement program it is still that particular max, but again

there are always variances on an individual case basis. But what I would say is

Canada – Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Benefit is now paid to the CMHC

rental market average rates in the areas so that will float with the market

rates. That's not a hard cap anymore under the new program.

J. DINN:

Excellent. I guess by

region, too? Yeah.

How

long on average does it take for someone to be put on the wait-list for NLHC

housing or a rent supplement and actually getting them into a unit? And has it

increased or decreased over the years?

J. MULLALEY:

So it does vary very much by individual. So, again, we do have a priority

wait-list code. The top category is victims of violence and the next one is

homeless and then there's a list. So it really does depend. If you're on the top

of the priority code, you're housed generally very quickly. The more challenging

is the affordability unit, so that can take up to a year or longer in general

circumstance from an affordability perspective.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

Is it

possible then to have a breakdown of the wait-list requests by age, region,

bedrooms? We can send you exactly what we're looking for, if that's all right.

J. MULLALEY:

Absolutely.

J. DINN:

And the funding for the

shelter in Labrador West is only for a year, but the minister noted that this

policy would be reviewed. What consideration has been given so far into

extending this line of funding?

J. ABBOTT:

Mr. Dinn, I guess for me,

it'll be based on the experience, obviously, for that shelter over the – I'll

say its first year. We recognize the need for that particular service and

facility. We will be very supportive of it continuing if the need is there.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

When

were the grant limits for the home repair programs last adjusted?

J. MULLALEY:

I don't know the exact date but it's been many years. I'm saying 2005 or

something. I don't have the exact date but it's been quite a while.

J. DINN:

That's fair enough.

I guess

where I'm going with this is building materials have skyrocketed. It's not the

first time I've heard tenders had to be re-awarded because the price is way out

there. I'm wondering if that's just the fact of labour and the building

materials have shot up and we've got to adjust for that.

J. ABBOTT:

We're also looking at the

program for those and other factors, the financial thresholds and the like, and

we've started an internal review of that program.

J. DINN:

Excellent.

Is it

possible also to have a breakdown regarding the age of tenants living in

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing stock?

J. ABBOTT:

We have that, yes.

J. DINN:

How many private shelter

operators excluding non-profits are currently in business and how much do they

receive in subsidies from the provincial government? And where in the province

are these establishments located?

J. ABBOTT:

We can provide that

information to you as well.

J. DINN:

Excellent, perfect.

This is

sort of a pet peeve of mine, only because when I delivered food to St Vincent de

Paul and you're going to bedsitting rooms – when I say bedsitting rooms, I mean

a house that has bedrooms and each person gets a bedroom but they share common

bathroom facilities and a common kitchen. It creates all sorts of problems. It

allows them to overload houses.

I'm

just wondering, is there any consideration to making it a requirement that from

here on in – something like at the Salvation Army, where you have sort of a

little kitchenette and bathroom, but there is privacy and security more than

anything, and sort of making that a requirement from here on in, especially with

landlords looking to – they're taking taxpayers' money there's no doubt about

it. To me, I would want to make sure that people are safe.

Has

there been any consideration in the long term to sort of phase out bedsitting

rooms and maybe focus more that it has to be like a bachelor apartment where you

have these facilities that are secure? Because we've received an awful lot of

these emergency shelters basically are what I would call bedsitting rooms.

J. ABBOTT:

A couple of things.

Certainly, looking at the shelter system, we're using the private shelters

really as a last resort. We are wanting to figure out with both programming and

funding how we expand on the non-profit shelter system and we're doing that. We

have some plans for that. As we're improving on our standards, I think they are

some of the things I think we need to build in there as well.

Now,

obviously, it comes at a cost and we have to figure out those factors as well,

but your point is well taken in terms of the amenities and – if we want these

shelters to be successful, whatever they are, then they have to designed and

managed properly. So I take you point.

J. DINN:

And I have to get this in,

we have to make sure the Grace General Hospital, whatever happens to that land,

there has to be some allowance there for affordable housing, supportive housing.

It's an ideal place.

J. ABBOTT:

We are in conversation with

the owner, the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, and we're having

those conversations. We're hoping to get a decision on that soon.

J. DINN:

Excellent.

NLHC

units play a role in providing safe housing for women and their children fleeing

violence. There are 10 houses that are vacant in Nain and four (inaudible)

houses are vacant in Hopedale. Some houses remain vacant for years. I'm just

wondering – and my colleague asked: What are the department's plans to ensure

houses are repaired in a timely fashion?

J. ABBOTT:

I think, as I mentioned in the House, and now I am mentioning here tonight, we

had started down that road. We've got some tenders already approved and ready to

roll. We've got other tenders put out there to get that work done. So we are

committed to getting that done as soon as humanly possible because we don't want

them vacant and we have committed the money for that.

J. DINN:

Okay.

Northern Labrador residents pay 19 cents a kilowatt hour for electricity to heat

their homes. They can't afford to switch from oil to electric heat. A drum, I

think, of stove oil costs $100 more than Goose Bay residents pay. This may or

may not fit under here but I'll ask it anyway. What is your department doing to

help these residents?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, again, we would have some heat subsidies and the like, but outside of

that, we don't have any control over the cost element. But where we can, we will

make sure we can make – you know, obviously, when we renovate these units now

they will be as energy efficient as possible so that, obviously, should help.

And then we do have heat supplements in our units as well.

J. DINN:

Thank you.

I would assume, too, that Housing would, in some way, fund Choices for Youth and

the housing for the youth here in care? No.

J. ABBOTT:

Well, we provide, through my other hat, we are providing the support there.

J. DINN:

Okay. I'll leave that to my colleague. She will be taking over after I leave

here. I have nothing else to say.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

The Member's time is expired.

You don't have anymore question?

J. DWYER:

No, I'm good.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

MHA Dinn do you have any additional questions?

J. DINN:

Dangerous question to ask me. I think I'm good right now. What I'll do, I will

send them – we more or less got the major ones covered.

Scott, anything? We're good.

CHAIR:

MHA Trimper.

P. TRIMPER:

Thank you very much.

First of all, I would like to say hello to some good friends over there and to

that department. I think besides Health and Community Services, CSSD is the

other go-to place and we rely heavily on very professional, dedicated people

being available at strange hours and it's usually not nine to five. I thank you,

Ms. Mullaley, the minister and others very much for the support.

I have a few questions. I'll get to some, maybe, sort of the more – the tougher

stuff. Let's start at some of the easier items first of all.

Does the department have any plans to establish additional off-reserve,

affordable, Indigenous housing in Labrador?

J. ABBOTT:

I think the right answer

right now is no, in that sense, because we are going to be reliant and working

with the feds because they have, both in last year's budget and this year's

budget, a significant amount of money set aside for Indigenous housing. We will

work then with the Nunatsiavut Government and the Innu Nation and NunatuKavut

and First Nations here on the Island to make sure that they can get access to as

much of that funding as possible and we work with them.

Now, we

have to do some bridging and all those kinds of things, yes. I guess, Mr.

Trimper, by the way you phrased the question, but we will be expanding our

housing supports in Labrador at the community level but I wouldn't have broken

it down the way you did.

P. TRIMPER:

Just put a little suggestion

in your mind, Minister, and it has been brought up to me a couple of times.

Certainly one of the issues in Labrador is the cost of materials, housing

construction; we have more than an abundant forest. I am just wondering if we

could pull a couple out of the departments like Forestry and maybe in skills

development and we could create a little bit of a – there are saw mills

operating, we could get some wood sawing, we could get some people building some

homes. I'm just throwing that out there as some of the discussion that is on the

go.

J. ABBOTT:

If that came from the

community and it was something that they wanted us to support, we would be all

for it.

P. TRIMPER:

Okay, it is coming from the

community so maybe I just need to organize it in and have it sent to you.

J. ABBOTT:

Yes.

P. TRIMPER:

Okay. Thank you.

You

know the discussion earlier about the frustration of seeing so many units empty

while we're awaiting maintenance is something we're also encountering. Some of

your staff have been very candid with us in terms of what some of the issues

are. I wonder if it might be reasonable – and again from a cost-effective

perspective – to consider engaging a professional company, a contractor, to

actually do that. You're going to pay a little bit more but you're going to get

the work done on a more timely basis and thereby get folks into these units and

save in other aspects of the provincial budget.

J. ABBOTT:

It would depend on the type

of maintenance. If it is what I would call routine maintenance, we have staff in

place to do that. If it is any major repairs or upgrades, obviously, we usually

contract all of that out in any event. It is a balance here for us. At the end

of the day, it's what's in our overall budget to allow us to do that.

I'm

certainly focused on – in talking to the staff here, that priority for me is to

make sure that any of our vacant units are put back in the market as quickly as

possible.

P. TRIMPER:

So much of the challenge

seems to be advertising for a full-time position and not finding sufficient

qualified individuals to apply in the first place, so, yeah.

Another

observation, just in our office in preparing for this evening, was that we seem

to have a shortage of single- or two-person units available; they seem to be

mostly three- or four-bedroom. That's excellent for families, which has to be an

important priority for us, but we do have many individuals who are waiting for

that particular opportunity and we're not able to provide that. I'm just

wondering if you had any comment.

J. ABBOTT:

That's really the legacy of

the families we served in the recent past. So any of the new units that we're

looking at on a go-forward basis, for sure, would be something smaller and fit

the current sort of family size. Where we can renovate a unit or a set of units

to accommodate splitting them up, we will do that. But we're finding that's

really almost cost-prohibitive and it's better to really start from scratch. So

that's how we're approaching it.

P. TRIMPER:

Minister, you and I and Ms.

Mullaley, Melanie in behind and others working – and I appreciate the dialogue

on so many of the challenges we're facing right now, particularly in Happy

Valley-Goose Bay around sheltering, providing at least a safe place at night for

so many people. We are at capacity tonight. The shelter, the Hub is full and the

Labrador Inn is at 38 people, I think, again this evening.

We're

full now. Here comes spring and warmer weather and expecting more folks to

travel. I just wondered if we have any kind of immediate plan for the next

month, two months, three months and then – well, maybe I'll ask that question

first.

J. ABBOTT:

Well, as you know, Mr.

Trimper, the action committee on the ground in Labrador is assessing all of that

as we speak, and what supports and services that we need to put in place now and

over the next number of weeks and months. So, obviously, outreach is going to be

an important factor, and we've put in a lot of additional supports now and put

in place for the spring.

terms of physical accommodation, we'll be assessing that and what the need might

be. But at the end of the day there's going to be a limited supply, no matter

what we do. We're going to have to work with all the players – the Innu Nation,

the Nunatsiavut Government and others – to say how we can support their

citizens, their residents in the communities there. So it's going to be a

challenge and we know that. We're just going to certainly be pulling out all the

best efforts to accommodate as many people as we can where we can.

P. TRIMPER:

I appreciate the overture

now; I guess we're looking at putting in some security cameras at the Labrador

Inn. Security has been enhanced somewhat. We still have gaps. I just wondered

what the department's thoughts – what your thoughts – are on having some of

those counselling services at that location. As I say, we have as many as 38

people there on any one evening. The counselling tends to be down at the Hub,

some six kilometres and as I've said, minus 40-something degrees away.

I'm

just watching the situation and just feeling that we can perhaps get some of

those professionals in your department and in the network also perhaps more in

attendance. I know they're responding. They're there after the event has

happened and then are leaving soon after. It's support that we're missing there.

J. ABBOTT:

So in terms of any

individuals that are, say, at the Labrador Inn that are sent there through the

Housing Hub – so they've been, for the sake of a better term, triaged – they are

supported by the Housing Hub and the resources there. We're obviously having a

number of conversations with Labrador-Grenfell Health to make sure that their

resources are available and will present themselves to the Labrador Inn or

wherever else they are needed in the community. They're, I think, committed now

to doing that.

Again,

lots of resources, we just have to figure out how we can make sure they are in

the right place at the right time.

P. TRIMPER:

Yes, we have a geographic

challenge there as well.

I'm

just about out of time, Minister, so I want to go just to the longer term. As

you know, I've been pushing a particular proposal that finally was presented

somewhat before the action team just recently. There are plenty of other

efforts, discussions ongoing even this week.

I just

wondered is that what you see as a department as a longer term solution. I don't

need to talk about it publicly here, but in terms of what the action teams had

presented to them, is that what everyone is working with now in terms of a

longer term plan?

J. ABBOTT:

The longer term plan, which

hopefully will be put in place in a relatively short period of time is – and I

will use the term because it's been used to me – sort of a Gathering Place

model, where it will be integrated services for individuals who are homeless or

at risk of homelessness that live or come into the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area.

Right

now, the consultant is working, doing some further consultations to make sure we

got the model right and the need right. We'll be doing a design on that in very

short order and then secure the land. Then, we'll be able to work with the

federal government to put the funding in place, and we're assuming the Salvation

Army and others will be involved.

Now,

some of that could change a bit, but the model is what I think what most people

will agree on is needed. How that gets funded and who supports whom, we've got

to work that out literally over the next couple of months.

CHAIR:

Okay, Minister.

The

Member's time has expired.

I just

want to confirm that Minister Coady is with us?

S. COADY:

I am.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

So I

ask the Clerk to recall the subhead.

CLERK:

Newfoundland and Labrador

Housing Corporation, Housing Operations and Assistance, 1.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall Newfoundland and

Labrador Housing Corporation, Housing, 1.1.01 carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subhead 1.1.01 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk for the

total.

CLERK:

The total.

CHAIR:

Shall the total carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, total heads, carried.

CHAIR:

Shall I report the Estimates

of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation carried?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, Estimates of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation carried

without amendment.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

We'll

take a 10-minute break and then we'll move on to Children, Seniors and Social

Development.

Recess

CHAIR:

Okay, Minister Coady.

S. COADY:

Hello, I'm joined.

CHAIR:

Just checking in; you're

good, okay.

We're

going to call the meeting to order and we'll start all over.

So I'll

just mention a few things. I ask everyone to identify yourself and wait for your

red light to come on. If it doesn't come on, just do a little wave and wait

until the light comes on. There are water coolers on each end. I ask that you

not to adjust the chairs. Staff are to wear masks unless you're talking.

We're

going to ask the Committee first to introduce yourselves and then we'll ask the

staff to introduce themselves. And we'll give the minister a few minutes and

we'll start in.

We'll

start with MHA Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

Jeff Dwyer, MHA for the

District of Placentia West - Bellevue, shadow Cabinet minister for CSSD.

C. YOUNG:

Carlson Young, Political Staffer in the Opposition Office.

L. EVANS:

MHA Lela Evans, Torngat

Mountains.

S. FLEMING:

Scott Fleming, Researcher, Third Party Caucus.

S. REID:

Scott Reid, MHA, St.

George's - Humber.

D. HAMLYN:

Dave Hamlyn, Sessional Staff, GMO.

L. STOYLES:

Lucy Stoyles, MHA, Mount

Pearl North.

P. TRIMPER:

Perry Trimper, MHA for Lake

Melville.

CHAIR:

And we have Minister Coady

joining us here.

S. COADY:

Hi, Siobhan Coady, St.

John's West.

J. ABBOTT:

John Abbott, Minister of

Children, Seniors and Social Development, and MHA for St. John's East - Quidi

Vidi.

Staff,

I am going to pass it on.

S. WALSH:

Susan Walsh, Deputy Minister, the Department of Children, Seniors and Social

Development.

B. EVANS:

Brian Evans, Assistant Deputy Minister, Corporate Services and Performance

Improvement.

D. MARTIN:

Dave Martin, Departmental Controller.

CHAIR:

Okay, I ask the Clerk to call the first subgrouping.

CLERK:

For the Estimates of

Children, Seniors and Social Development: Executive and Support Services, 1.1.01

to 1.2.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.02,

Executive and Support Services, carry?

Minister.

J. ABBOTT:

Thank you, Chair.

Good

evening again, folks, and thank you for allowing me to join you for presenting

our Estimates for the Department of Children, Seniors and Social Development. My

department consists of 11 lines of business, which include child protection,

in-care services for children, adoptions, youth services, youth corrections,

adult protection, persons with disabilities, seniors and aging, poverty

reduction, income support and the community sector.

Since

last year I would now like to highlight some of the department's key areas of

progress. In terms of adult protection, last November I had the opportunity to

lead the debate on proposed changes to the

Adult Protection Act . The purpose of

this legislation is to protect adult residents of the province who are at risk

of abuse, neglect and/or self-neglect, and who do not understand or appreciate

that risk. The proposed changes, that received Royal Assent, will further

strengthen the adult protection process in this province, as well as incorporate

Indigenous culture and identity in that process. The department is actually in

the process of developing the accompanying policies and rolling out training to

be positioned to proclaim the updated legislation this fall.

When it

comes to seniors and aging, we have a division which focuses on helping seniors

to remain healthy, active, engaged citizens living in age-friendly communities

and addressing the province's aging population. In

Budget 2022 , my department has a

number on investments to help support seniors and older adults, including

$95,000 for the Newfoundland and Labrador Age-Friendly Communities Program,

which provides communities, incorporated municipalities and Indigenous

governments with the opportunity to obtain support in planning for population

aging throughout the province.

We also

have $300,000 for the Newfoundland and Labrador Community Transportation

Program, which supports alternate transportation services for individuals who

experience barriers to accessible, affordable and inclusive transportation.

Indigenous government and incorporated municipalities, not-for-profits and

entities within a local service district can apply for funding through this

program.

We have

$200,000 budgeted for the Seniors' Social Inclusion Initiative, which supports

initiatives that promote social inclusion and intergenerational projects to

increase interaction between youth and seniors.

With

the release of the Health Accord NL report, aging in place is a key theme. The

department's Age-Friendly Newfoundland and Labrador Communities Program is

recognized as a viable policy response and a useful tool for community planning

in this sphere.

Last

fall my department, in partnership with the Department of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs, hosted a webinar called Making Your Community More

Age-Friendly, and this webinar provided an overview of the age-friendly

program, and how we can benefit communities and communities can become more

involved.

As well, I was pleased to recently join my

federal-provincial-territorial colleagues across the country, in February, with

a meeting of the ministers responsible for seniors, and we discussed our

collective goal of helping communities become more accessible to all of us,

regardless of age or ability. My colleagues and I acknowledge that making

communities more age-friendly requires the collective efforts of all federal,

provincial and municipal governments across the country, as well as community

partners.

The themes and issues from the seniors' forum align with

what I heard and continue to hear from our Provincial Advisory Council on Aging

and Seniors, and I met with them recently to discuss the issues that they are

finding that are of concern to seniors.

When it comes to disability policy, our office works

closely with persons with disabilities, organizations of and for persons with

disabilities, as well as advocacy groups, and across federal, provincial and

territorial governments and departments.

persons throughout Newfoundland and Labrador, I was pleased to introduce the

last October and it became law on December 3, which is International Day of

Persons with Disabilities. This enabling legislation outlines the principles and

goals for an accessible province. Following the principle of Nothing About Us

Without Us ,

have 50 per cent of members being people with or representing communities of

persons with disabilities. This board will be instrumental in establishing and

announcing the board membership in the very near future.

In Budget 2022 my department has a

number of investments for program grants under the Disability Policy Office,

including $400,000 for the Accessible Vehicle grant program and the Accessible

Taxi Grant Program to provide funding that can help to adapt vehicles to be

accessible for personal use and to modify taxies to make them more accessible.

We have $250,000 for the Capacity Building Grant Program, which provides support

to non-profit, community-based organizations, incorporated municipalities,

including Indigenous governments and organizations, to enable persons with

disabilities to become fully engaged in their communities. And finally, we have

$75,000 for Inclusion Grants for community-based and non-profit organizations to

help them create more accessible and inclusive events and facilities.

When it comes to poverty reduction and income support, we recognize these are

challenging times that have and continue to deeply impact individuals and

families, especially those living in poverty. I am aware of the economic

pressures that many people are facing, as well as the increasing demand on

emergency food programs throughout the province.

In order to address this immediate pressure related to the increased cost of

living, this government recently announced the five-point plan. One element of

this plan impacting my department was providing over $5 million to approximately

20,000 individuals and families currently in receipt of income support with a

one-time benefit of $200 for single people and $400 for families. I certainly

have to thank our staff in the department for mobilizing to ensure that the

eligible recipients received these one-time payments by April 8. Most received

it before the end of March.

We also provided a one-time emergency grant of over $400,000 to assist Food

First NL's Community Food Helpline to provide food and other necessities to

individuals and families and to administer a grant program to provide support to

community food-based programs, including foodbanks throughout the province.

We put these short-term measures in place to respond to the urgent situation

many individuals and families have been facing while we develop a longer term

approach. To that end, we are developing a social and economic well-being plan

that will include leading practices in poverty reduction and focus on factors

that impact social and economic well-being. This plan will take the social

determinants of health ,

prevention and early-intervention approach and will fully align with the Health

Accord NL recommendations.

well, to help inform our plan, we are reviewing the province's Income Support

Program and exploring the potential of a basic income approach. As well as

looking at the ongoing work of the Health Accord, the Premier's Economic

Recovery Team report, the minimum wage review and the post-secondary education

review. We will also continue to work with other government departments and

agencies as we develop the plan. The next phase of our work on the social and

economic well-being plan will include engagement with people with lived

experience and community partners, and we'll be starting that shortly.

Our

commitment to support people in low income is reflected in

Budget 2022 with such investments as

$74 million for the Newfoundland and Labrador Income Supplement, which supports

approximately 162,000 individuals and their families. We have $63 million for

the Seniors' Benefit, which supports approximately 50,000 seniors and their

families. We have funding allocated to extend the bus pass program that provides

Metrobus or GoBus passes for the areas of St. John's, Mount Pearl and Paradise

to income support recipients. This year, we'll be adding seniors who receive the

Guaranteed Income Supplement and at-risk youth receiving services from our Youth

Services Program.

We have

allocated $270,000 for the Prenatal-Infant Nutrition Supplement, formerly known

as the Mother Baby Nutrition Supplement, which is being increased from $100 to

$150 per month for people with low incomes who are pregnant to assist with the

extra cost of healthy eating during pregnancy and up to the baby's first

birthday. An additional $100, one-time payment, is also provided during the

month of the baby's birth.

I now

want to talk a little bit about child welfare and particularly Indigenous

children and youth in care. We are absolutely committed to reducing the number

of Indigenous children and youth in care. In fact, there has been a 14 per cent

decrease from September 2020 to September 2021 in terms of the number of

Indigenous children and youth in care, from 350 down to 300, and that number

continues to be reduced.

continue to work with Indigenous governments and organizations as well as the

federal government on improving outcomes for Indigenous children and youth, as

well as better understand how we can share information and support the work

happening in our Indigenous communities. While working with our Indigenous

governments in Labrador, we have been able to reduce the number of Indigenous

children and youth coming into care by 42 per cent from 2018 to 2020. Again,

this number continues to come down from 94 children in 2018 to 54 in 2020. This

is a significant improvement and demonstrates how we are doing business

differently in our Indigenous communities.

It is

also important to note that we are focused on supporting Indigenous partners in

their efforts to secure upstream, preventive and supportive services as a means

of preventing vulnerable families from becoming involved with the child

protection system in the first instance.

Our

Children, Youth and Families Act

and the new federal act,

An Act Respecting First Nations, Inuit And Métis

Children, Youth And Families, each have provisions to ensure Indigenous children

and youth in care remain connected with their culture, including the requirement

for cultural connection plans and the provision of notice on significant

measures to their Indigenous representatives.

Last June, I was pleased to join the Innu leadership to

sign a new CSSD Inuit protocol that is building on our relationship and service

coordination of working in the best interest of Innu children, youth and

families. This new relationship is paying dividends to both Innu families and

our social workers on the ground in Labrador.

My department is also working in partnership with the

Nunatsiavut Government as well as the Department of Indigenous Affairs and

Reconciliation and other government departments to holistically address the

issues outlined in the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate's

A Long Wait for Change: Independent

Review of Child Protection Services to Inuit Children in Newfoundland and

Labrador .

In particular, we have worked with the Nunatsiavut

Government to identify priorities related to the review and co-design, co-plan,

and co-implement work to address these priorities. Central to this work has been

the enhancement of relationship building, information sharing and collaboration

in the spirit of our shared commitment to the well-being of Inuit children,

youth and families in this province.

I just now want to turn to adoptions. Last October, I was

pleased to introduce amendments to the

Adoption Act, 2013 , which

received Royal Assent in the beginning of November. The amendments are

reflective of best practices and input gathered from stakeholders such as birth

families, adoptive families, foster parents, the Newfoundland and Labrador

Foster Families Association, the Office of the Child and Youth Advocate and

Indigenous governments and organizations, as well as the public.

Through these amendments, we are strengthening the adoption

process in Newfoundland and Labrador, as well as addressing the unique needs of

Indigenous children and their families in the adoption process. Work is ongoing

to develop the policies and training to reflect the amendments and to proclaim

the legislation in the coming months.

conclude, as you can see, my department has a variety of policies, programs and

services that have a continued focus on supporting children, youth, families,

seniors, persons with disabilities and persons experiencing poverty and I'm

working closely with the community sector. We will continue to work horizontally

across government departments and community groups to help address the complex

issues that people are facing throughout the province.

that, Madam Chair, I will conclude.

CHAIR:

Thank you, Minister Abbott.

MHA

Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank

you for that opening commentary, much appreciated. I'd also like to say thank

you to your department staff for being here to answer questions and to help us

through helping the people that need our help the most, I guess, kind of thing.

I appreciate your time and thank you for being here.

So to

dive right in, Minister, can I obtain a copy of your briefing binder?

J. ABBOTT:

Absolutely.

J. DWYER:

Thank you.

And are

you applying zero budgeting?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, we are.

J. DWYER:

Can you provide the number

of employees in the department last year?

J. ABBOTT:

I have those numbers right

here. Give me one second.

So in

terms of positions in the department, there are 985, of which 772 are currently

filled.

J. DWYER:

How many retirements were in

'21-'22?

J. ABBOTT:

I did see that number, but I

Twenty-two retirements, yeah, thank you.

J. DWYER:

Can you provide the number

of vacancies and a breakdown of those?

J. ABBOTT:

We have those, so that would

be in your binder.

J. DWYER:

The binder. Okay, thank you.

Were

there any positions eliminated?

J. ABBOTT:

We didn't eliminate any

positions; I can just give you a quick rundown. We had 84 people who resigned

and we hired back 39, new hires from outside government.

J. DWYER:

Were there any layoffs?

J. ABBOTT:

No.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

There

were no positions eliminated. How many short-term employees are there? Are there

positions to fill?

J. ABBOTT:

We have a number of those –

Susan, do you have that number in front of you there?

S. WALSH:

So we have 71 temporary positions and nine contractual.

J. DWYER:

Thank you.

How

many employees are still working from their residence?

S. WALSH:

We have all of our staff at

Confederation Building back in the office. As it relates to our regional

operations, both on the Income Support side and on the child welfare side, we

are using a rotational model, 50 in and 50 out, to ensure we don't bring any

particular team down. We've had some experience when it hits a team and then

service delivery is significantly impacted.

anticipate by next week to have our Income Support staff back in the office, all

of them. And then we'll wait another week or two and bring in the child welfare

staff.

J. DWYER:

Great, thank you.

On the

Executive and Support Services with the Minister's Office, why were Salaries

$3,000 more than budgeted?

J. ABBOTT:

We had a new ADM position

assigned to the department. That's the primary increase there.

J. DWYER:

For the last few years

Employee Benefits were zero and you continue to budget that amount. Why is that?

J. ABBOTT:

Bear with me for a second.

Maybe,

Brian, if you want to answer that.

B. EVANS:

We continue to budget for that. We anticipate that travel may be reinstated and,

certainly, that's generally reserved for conferences for the minister and

executive staff. Those have been generally held virtually for the last couple of

years, so we continue to budget for that amount under the assumption that

in-person face-to-face conferences may resume. That would account for membership

fees and conference fees.

J. DWYER:

Thank you.

For

'21-'22, you budgeted $77,300 for Transportation and Communications and only

used $12,000.

Why the

big difference? Why are you reducing that budget now to $40,000 for this year?

J. ABBOTT:

I think, Mr. Dwyer, really

based on Brian's earlier question, we just didn't – because of COVID we weren't

doing any travel. We realized on a go-forward basis we probably won't need as

much as we had budgeted in the past. So we reduced that budget and allocated

some of those savings to more pressure points in the department.

J. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

S. WALSH:

We've also rightsized the travel budget. We previously had a minister who was

from outside St. John's and now we have a St. John's minister.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

So on

Executive and Support Services, why were Salaries $113,900 more than budgeted

and increased another $31,000 for this year?

J. ABBOTT:

That, again, was flex in – I

may have misspoke on the first question you asked. That would reflect the

additional assistant deputy minister position in the department.

J. DWYER:

So then that $3,000 that was

budgeted from the first question, that was due to the ADM as well?

J. ABBOTT:

No, I'm just (inaudible).

J. DWYER:

That was under Executive and

Support Services.

J. ABBOTT:

I'll just go ahead now. That

was on salaries or …?

J. DWYER:

I think your colleague

behind you might have an answer there.

J. ABBOTT:

Okay, go ahead.

B. EVANS:

Certainly, the $3,000 under

ministerial support was former Minister Warr exiting from Cabinet into an MHA

role. They're entitled to two months of salary while they're transitioning from

a Cabinet role to MHA, so that accounted for the extra $3,000.

J. DWYER:

Thank you very much.

For the

last two years, Employee Benefits were zero and you continue to budget that

amount. Is that the same reason as you gave earlier on Executive Support?

J. ABBOTT:

I'm going to say, yes, but

I'm just trying to figure out if we're on the same line there.

J. DWYER:

1.2.01.

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, I'm just trying to find

it here now in my book.

Is that

under Minister or Executive?

Again,

the events did not transpire so we didn't need those funds.

J. DWYER:

It will be reinstated?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes.

J. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

For

2021-22, you budgeted $30,300 for Transportation and Communications and only

used $11,500. What is the difference? Why are you reducing it to $25,300 this

year?

J. ABBOTT:

Again, we didn't need the

money or use the money for – it was from lack of travel primarily. We are

anticipating – recognizing the reality that we're not going to be doing as much

in any event, so we reduced the budget and reallocated those savings to other

parts of the department.

J. DWYER:

Have you considered the

advantages and disadvantages of what COVID has presented us in doing virtual

meetings instead of having to meet in person?

J. ABBOTT:

There's no doubt – and I've

seen it now for the past year – it's certainly changed how we do business. Zoom

and Skype calls are actually more prevalent and people are more comfortable with

them. I see just generally, in my department and right across, that the need for

a lot of, I'll call executive travel is going to be reduced as a result. So

we'll monitor that again this year and see, but when we get back to whatever the

new normal is, then we'll budget accordingly.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

For

2020 and 2021, you budgeted $256,500 for Transportation and Communications and

again the cost is declining, but you budgeted the $227,000 again. What's the

reason?

J. ABBOTT:

In that area, that's under

Corporate Services, our travel requirements were down, but that's where the rest

– I'll call it, the large part of the administrative side of the department or

our middle managers and whatever that may be doing is picking up more travel.

We've reduced it; we didn't spend as much this year and we reduced it from what

was budgeted last year, but, obviously, an increase for this year as well, for

the coming year. As I said, where we can avoid the travel, we will using the

virtual meetings.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Thank

you, Madam Chair.

CHAIR:

I just want to remind the

Members to identify ourselves. The Broadcast is having a little bit of

difficulty knowing who is speaking.

J. ABBOTT:

Okay.

CHAIR:

All right, we'll move on to

MHA Evans.

L. EVANS:

Sorry, I'm having trouble

with my earpiece there.

CHAIR:

Yes, and we're having

trouble with the clock.

L. EVANS:

I'm going to ask some

general questions, first. I'm just going to try to avoid duplication –

CHAIR:

One second, until we get the

clock going.

Okay,

we're good.

L. EVANS:

I'm going to ask some

general questions first.

You

mentioned the Mother Baby Nutrition Supplement program. Where is it located,

under which heading, this year in the binder?

J. ABBOTT:

It would be under Income

Support.

L. EVANS:

Under Income Support?

J. ABBOTT:

Or is it separate?

D. MARTIN:

It's in the Income Support

Program and Policy, under Allowances and Assistance.

L. EVANS:

Thank you.

Budget 2021, almost half the money for the Mother Baby Nutrition Supplement

program wasn't spent due to a low uptake in the community. So has there been any

progress on finding out why that was the case and are there any solutions

implemented? Because there is a strong need for the program.

J. ABBOTT:

Chair, I'm prepared to

answer the question, I know it's a different subhead.

CHAIR:

Yeah.

MHA

Evans, that group hasn't been called yet, do you want to –

L. EVANS:

Okay. We didn't know where

it was, which is why we put it in general. So if you want, just give me the

number and I'll put it under to –

J. ABBOTT:

Dave, can you just repeat

the subhead number for the supplement?

D. MARTIN:

It's 4.1.02, Income Support Program and Policy.

L. EVANS:

Perfect. So I'll just move

it over to there, which is why we had it under general, we couldn't find it.

Could

you provide a list of the initiatives funded under the Community Transportation

Program and how many municipalities and community organizations have applied for

and received funding?

J. ABBOTT:

Again, different subhead.

CHAIR:

Yeah, again, that's a

different subhead, perhaps they can –

L. EVANS:

Yes, just give me the

number.

CHAIR:

Give her the number so we

can –

J. ABBOTT:

Can you give her the number

again, David?

L. EVANS:

We're both new to the –

D. MARTIN:

What was the program? The Community –

L. EVANS:

Community Transportation

Program.

D. MARTIN:

Community Transportation Program, that's the age-friendly community grants? Is

that the one you're looking at?

L. EVANS:

Yes.

D. MARTIN:

That would be 3.1.01, Seniors and Aging.

L. EVANS:

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

I'm

almost afraid to ask my next general one.

Many of the recommendations that are coming out now in the Health Accord are

related to the social determinants of health. So in the short to medium term are

there any particular planks of the report that the department will be looking at

implementing? Similar to the Minister of Health, he's going to start

implementing some aspects of the Health Accord before the program is rolled out.

J. ABBOTT:

As a department, some of our staff were involved in some of the committee work

of Health Accord NL so one of the things that we are taking back is really the

largest theme of the social determinants and building that in to our Social and

Economic Well-Being plan. So we're going to build on the work that they have

done and how we can now operationalize that in our planning within the

department.

But if you look at what we are doing for some of the things you just mentioned:

age-friendly communities, the nutritional supplement and all of that ties in. So

what I want to do as minister, once the Accord is – quote unquote – adopted as

government policy, let's put it that way, then we will make sure that the work

we do is fully aligned with the overall theme of the Health Accord NL. And then

we will be looking at specific initiatives and funding opportunities that go

along with that.

L. EVANS:

Thank you.

What is the current ratio of social workers to cases? And are there differences

amongst the regions?

J. ABBOTT:

So our standard is one social worker for 20 cases. In the St. John's metro area,

we are at one social worker for 19 cases. In Labrador, we are at one for a

little over 30 cases. That continues to be a challenge for us in terms of

recruiting and retaining social workers in Labrador from time to time and we are

doing that right now. We are having social workers from the St. John's metro

area come help and support the staff in Labrador.

L. EVANS:

Okay. That leads into my next question: How many positions are vacant in

Nunatsiavut, that's the five Inuit communities and Natuashish? We are just

looking at the vacancy.

S. WALSH:

So we just implemented a new

model of service delivery in conjunction with the Nunatsiavut Government for a

fly-in, fly-out model in the Nunatsiavut zone, so all communities. I'm pretty

confident in saying all positions have been filled at this stage.

L. EVANS:

I just came from Hopedale.

For example, in Hopedale, how many social workers do you normally have compared

to what's there now?

S. WALSH:

We fill based on the level

of need, when you think about the model of 20 cases to one social worker, so it

would really depend on the number of cases in a community – the number of

families and children that need support. I can't really give you an exact number

on how many would need to be in that community without knowing the caseload and

I'm sorry I don't –

L. EVANS:

No, because if we're looking

at the caseload, it's way over one per 30 cases, if you look at the communities.

I've been in all the communities and that's one of the things I've been talking

to the social workers who are actually there, and we're way above one in 30

right now. So what you're saying is wait to see how the fly-in, fly-out model

will work.

S. WALSH:

Yeah, absolutely. We knew we

were having significant challenges recruiting people to live in some of these

communities, unfortunately. Some people love it and want to stay, and those

people have been encouraged to stay and we continue to have them there

permanently, but in other circumstances we had used the fly-in, fly-out model in

the Innu communities and had been very successful. So we met with the

Nunatsiavut Government. It's not intended to be the long-term answer, but in the

interim of people who will come and live in community, we have implemented this

model jointly.

L. EVANS:

Many of the people who've

left CSSD, social workers, have actually gained jobs with Nunatsiavut or the

Innu, so it's not about not wanting to live in the communities, because they

stay in the communities. Just an addition to your comments there, and thank you

for the answer.

What

systems are in place to measure the success or failure of a particular

initiatives that are offered by community sectors and funded by the departments?

J. ABBOTT:

Right now each of the

community agencies, certain ones we fund, there is an agreement that will lay

out their roles and responsibilities, an evaluation component to determine if

they're meeting the objectives of the funding agreement, and then they're

reviewed on an annual basis.

L. EVANS:

Just moving on now to the

line items: 1.1.01, the Minister's Office, there's a decrease in the budget for

Transportation and Communications. Is this because the minister lives in the

capital, or is it because there are plans to hold more virtual meetings?

J. ABBOTT:

Both.

L. EVANS:

Both. Thank you.

Moving

on, 1.2.02, Corporate Services and Performance Improvement. The spending on

Salaries was lower than anticipated. Are there any vacancies here and, if so,

what are the positions?

J. ABBOTT:

We can provide the vacancies

and part of that is that reason.

L. EVANS:

Okay. So you will provide

them to us after.

J. ABBOTT:

Yes.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has

expired.

MHA

Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

Under 1.2.02, in 2021-22 Salaries were $355,700 less than budgeted and in

2020-21 Salaries were $463,000 less than budgeted. Why the difference? This year

you are budgeting $278,700 more than you used last year. Can you explain?

J. ABBOTT:

There are a couple things

going on there. One is in terms of we didn't have the staff recruited so that

was the savings. We anticipate that we will be able to recruit to fill some more

of those vacant positions going forward. There are some smaller adjustments

within that, some small changes in positions and salaries, but that is the main

reason.

J. DWYER:

Okay, thank you.

Why did

Employee Benefits exceed the budgeted amount?

J. ABBOTT:

That was largely due to an

increase of workers' compensation cost. We had a certain provision we had to

address and we had to provide some more funding.

J. DWYER:

Again, Transportation and

Communications, I'm guessing are same reasons as was given before, why that's

under budget.

J .

ABBOTT: Yes, and that's standard.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Why

were Supplies $9,500 under budget?

J. ABBOTT:

Again, we didn't need to spend that amount. Part of it is that we don't have

that many staff around, a lot of people were working form home, so we didn't

need as much paper supplies is a good example right there.

J. DWYER:

Did we buy any new computers

for people to work from home?

J. ABBOTT:

Most of that we had done on

the previous years' budget.

J. DWYER:

For Purchased Services, less

than 50 per cent of the budgeted amount was spent, and this year you're

increasing last year's amount by $50,000. Can you explain that?

J. ABBOTT:

We're, again – I hate to use

it, but COVID. So we didn't have as much training activity. We intend now, as

people are back in the office, to resume training, and most of that is purchased

services.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Thank

you, Madam Chair, and I'll wait for the next header.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MHA

Evans.

L. EVANS:

1.2.02, Corporate Services

and Performance Improvement: Why did spending on Property, Furnishings and

Equipment run over budget? I'm not sure if that question was asked.

J. ABBOTT:

We did, in this year,

provide funding for some more laptops for staff over the budgeted amount.

L. EVANS:

Okay, so it was basically to

accommodate working from home more than anything?

J. ABBOTT:

That's certainly a large

part of that, yes.

L. EVANS:

2.1.01, Child and –

CHAIR:

We're not there yet.

J. ABBOTT:

Jumping ahead.

L. EVANS:

I'm jumping ahead.

CHAIR:

Yes.

J. ABBOTT:

You're going to get put in

MHA prison, if there is one.

CHAIR:

All right, any additional

questions?

J. DWYER:

I'm good, thank you, Madam

Chair.

CHAIR:

Okay, I ask the Clerk to

recall the group.

CLERK:

Executive and Support

Services, 1.1.01 to 1.2.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Shall 1.1.01 to 1.2.02,

Executive and Support Services, carry?

All

those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against, 'nay.'

Carried.

motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 1.2.02 carried.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to call the

next group.

CLERK:

Child and Youth Services,

2.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.1.01, Child and

Youth Services, carry?

MHA

Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

Thank you, Chair.

Why

were Salaries under budget and this year $100,700 more than budgeted for last

year?

J. ABBOTT:

The savings for this past

year were again one-time savings due to delayed recruitment vacancies in the

department. As you can see, that's a large

section of our department. And we are

looking and working to make sure we can staff up. And that's why we made sure we

had the budget back to its zero-based budget amount.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Again,

Transportation and Communications: found that it was significantly under budget.

This year, we're budgeting $560,900 again and that's more than was spent last

year.

J. ABBOTT:

A couple of things. The

savings were again due to COVID: less travel, and the reduced number of staff

from what we had planned and which we had budgeted on. Going forward – we see

results – we are expanding our fly-in, fly-out model in Labrador, so that's

going to obviously chew up more travel dollars. That's the main reason for that

increase over this year's budget.

J. DWYER:

Purchased Services is

approximately $46,000 under budget and this year the budgeted amount is the same

as last year. Can you explain?

J. ABBOTT:

Savings again due to

Purchased Services, less staff, less copying charges: all those kinds of things

that we would normally incur from people because people were working from home.

Also, we had some leasing tenders that were delayed or postponed because we

didn't need them for the time being. We will need them for the new year.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Property, Furnishings: again, they were $53,000 under budget last year. This

year, the budget amount is the same as last year.

J. ABBOTT:

There were less staff in

place, ergonomics and all those kinds of things that we could do for our staff.

Because we have almost 1,000 staff, if we were fully staffed, so we're always

planning for them. We intend to get back to normal this year.

J. DWYER:

The Office of the Child and

Youth Advocate, in its report in 2019-2020, noted 46 recommendations of its 243

recommendations were partially implemented and three were not implemented. Can

you provide the up-to-date numbers?

J. ABBOTT:

I don't have that in front

of me; Susan, I don't know if you have that. We do have that in the department,

so we can provide that.

That

being said, we are working diligently on all of those recommendations. Some of

the recent reports, we're just dealing with those newer recommendations; there

were three reports put out in December, for instance. So they'd be in addition

to even those numbers. We have a group in the department that are solely working

on those recommendations.

J. DWYER:

Perfect.

The

Review of Child Protection Services to Inuit Children recommended an audit of

out-of-community placements. Can you provide the numbers?

J. ABBOTT:

In terms of out-of-community

placements?

J. DWYER:

Yeah.

S. WALSH:

We have a joint committee with the Nunatsiavut Government on all of those

recommendations. We have a specific position within our department that partners

with a director in the department of social health in NG, and we have developed

a plan of implementation and work towards each one of those recommendations. The

out-of-community review is on the list in terms of all the different priorities

that we're looking at. There is a work plan been established to move forward

with that.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Last

summer in Estimates I asked about the PRIDE program. Is that being utilized in

towns in Labrador, the Indigenous communities?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, it is.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

The

price of goods, transportation and delivery has escalated in the last two years.

What is the increase in financial support since 2020 to Innu children, families

and caregivers in the child protection system to reflect the Northern Labrador

reality?

J. ABBOTT:

We meet whatever the actual

costs are. If it is within the Innu communities, we're reimbursed by the federal

government and their, I'll say, generous allotment for the program, so there are

no challenges there. Then, likewise, we work with the Nunatsiavut Government. If

there are any particular challenges, if our current funding and allocations

aren't sufficient, then we work with them, but that has not been seen as any

particular issue or challenge for the department.

J. DWYER:

That program has been

developed through truth and reconciliation?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, certainly within the

spirit and intent. We work, as the deputy minister mentioned, with the Innu, the

Innu Nation and the Innu Round Table when it comes to the Innu communities and

families. The same with Nunatsiavut. We also work with NunatuKavut and on the

Island we are working with Conne River and the First Nation on the West Coast.

J. DWYER:

That's excellent. Thank you.

Are you

satisfied that all critical issues pertaining to Indigenous children have been

addressed?

J. ABBOTT:

I think the best way for me

to answer that is we know there's a lot of work yet to be done, but we are

definitely on the right path. The working relationships between our department,

our social workers and with both the Innu Nation and the Nunatsiavut Government

is vastly improved from where we were. We have protocols that we have in place

and working on others.

I'm

confident we are on the right path. I think it's reflected in the number of

Indigenous children coming in care is going down. The supports are happening at

the community end and they are staying in community. If not with their families,

at least they're staying in the community. So a child coming out of the

community and certainly going out of province is definitely a last resort for

all of us.

J. DWYER:

I appreciate that from the

department, knowing that they can stay attached to their cultural heritage and

be raised the way they would prefer kind of thing.

Thank

you, Madam Chair. That will be it for that section.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you very much.

MHA

Evans.

L. EVANS:

Thank you.

2.1.01,

Child and Youth Services: we amended the

Children, Youth and Families Act about a year ago now. What feedback are you

getting from your staff, Indigenous groups and clients of children in youth

services on how these changes are working, feedback?

S. WALSH:

Yes, we did amend the act. I

think the two biggest changes at that time was a better inclusion respecting the

rights of Indigenous peoples, and the second was how we provide services to

youth in the province, all youth.

Just to

begin with the approach around Indigenous children and youth and their families,

I'm hearing that we are doing very well from my staff. I think that people are

seeing that the value of a different approach to collaboration and community

support is really making a difference in our approach.

The

minister mentioned earlier that we have a renewed working relationship agreement

that the minister signed with the leadership of both Natuashish and Sheshatshiu

a little over a year ago now, I guess. That protocol has really changed the way

we do business; we've shared much more information. All Indigenous communities

in Labrador now have ability to receive notification of when we take certain

measures under our legislation, the

Children, Youth and Families Act and/or the federal legislation, so they are

much more informed of what is happening, they have a right to appear in certain

circumstances, in court matters. I think the collaboration's improving.

It's

early days, we have a long way to go; I'm not saying everything is perfect, but

we are seeing a change in terms of the number of Indigenous children in care as

a consequence and the number of Indigenous children coming into care. So I think

there's an increased sharing. I speak, certainly, to the leadership of both

governments fairly frequently and I have regular meetings, certainly, with the

Nunatsiavut Government deputy minister. It's very positive how we're working

together. Obviously, we know we have a long way to go.

L. EVANS:

Thank you.

S. WALSH:

As it relates to youth, good news story there as well. So we've seen an increase

in the number of youth in care and the youth receiving youth services. They're

voluntary, but they've chosen to come to us for services. And that's exactly

what the act was intended to do, that gap people always talk about with 16- and

17-year-olds, filling that gap and then seeing young people not leave, even at

17 or 18 when they can. Seeing them stay until 21 – as I've heard policies allow

– we've seen an increase. Slowly but surely that's going up and that's a good

news story in terms of providing services to youth.

L. EVANS:

Thank you.

What

positions are currently vacant? We discussed that Salaries are under budget, but

that's because of delayed recruitment and vacancies, as per your answer to the

MHA for Placentia West - Bellevue, but just looking at the positions.

J. ABBOTT:

We have that so we can

provide all that information to you, but it would be overall: social workers,

social work assistants and the like.

L. EVANS:

Okay.

Why was

spending on Supplies, Purchased Services and Property, Furnishings and Equipment

lower than expected last year?

J. ABBOTT:

You said Supplies. Supplies

were down, if we're in the same category –

L. EVANS:

Supplies, Purchased Services

and Property, Furnishings and Equipment, they were all lower.

J. ABBOTT:

Lower, yes, and largely

because we – I'll call it the vacancies within that program area, so we didn't

have to spend those funds.

L. EVANS:

Federal revenue is increased

here, why are we expecting more money?

J. ABBOTT:

Again, that's with the

federal government, so they reimburse us for the expenditures in the Innu

communities, and the level of activity will increase next year. There's a group

home that's established and we fund that in the first instance and then get

reimbursed.

L. EVANS:

Okay.

Just

keeping under Child and Youth Services, what is the salary for the executive

director of Choices for Youth?

J. ABBOTT:

I don't know.

L. EVANS:

Okay.

Is that

an appropriate question to ask here?

J. ABBOTT:

Yes, I think. I mean, we

fund that organization, but I don't know if it fits right in here, but I don't

have details on their salaries.

L. EVANS:

Okay. Would we be able to

get those details?

J. ABBOTT:

What I'll do, I will check

and see what we have and what we can release. And what we have and what we can

release, we'll certainly be more than prepared to share with you.

L. EVANS:

Okay. Thank you.

Currently, the residents of Lily House are being housed in a hotel in the St.

John's metro area. Where's the money in the budget line for that?

J. ABBOTT:

So if we are providing any

additional funding for that type of expenditure, we have a budget, an operating

agreement with Choices for Youth and that's funded. Where that is in terms of

which line – is that under here?

D. MARTIN:

Any funding that we provide

to Choices for Youth would be under Grants and Subsidies. As the minister said,

we provide them with an operating portion. We're not specifically funding what

they're doing at this point in time.

L. EVANS:

Okay.

Has the

minister had any conversations with the Choices for Youth director to resolve

the labour dispute that's ongoing?

J. ABBOTT:

Certainly, I haven't or my office. We have, what I call, an improved plan, a

straight contingency plan for any of the youth that are under our care and under

our youth service arrangements, they are being protected and delivered on. But

in terms of the labour relations matter, it falls within the Department of

Environment and Climate Change. Whatever information they provide in terms of

conciliation and that, that's all we have been apprised of.

That being said, we do our regular checks with Choices for Youth to make sure

that if there are any issues that are arising, they are addressed by them or by

us. We have not been apprised of any particular challenges at this point.

L. EVANS:

Okay. Thank you.

Just one other question. The Martin Martin Group Home for youth and children,

would you be able to provide a brief update? Last year, I know there was some

contention between CSSD and the board of directors on whether or not it was

going to be turned into a Level 4 or if it was going to have the ability to be

able to house children who were taking from their parents, temporarily, until

they could actually find somewhere in the community and a lot of that was

contingent on the training that was prescribed by CSSD to the Martin Martin

Group Home.

So I was just wondering if you could just give a brief update on that progress.

S. WALSH:

Yes, we worked with Martin Martin executive; they hired – we supported

financially – a consultant and expert group to provide support for training for

their staff, development of a policy manual and all of the work they needed to

do to prepare to meet the requirements of a group home under CSSD, as you say,

Level 4 placement.

They have completed all of that work successfully. I understand that they have

done quite well and their licence is imminent, if not already signed-off the

last few days.

L. EVANS:

And so with that licence, they will be able to provide temporary care for

children who have been removed from their homes?

S. WALSH:

That's correct.

CHAIR:

The Member's time has expired.

L. EVANS:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

MHA Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

No, I'm good on that header.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

MHA Evans, do you have additional questions?

L. EVANS:

No, I'm good.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

I ask the Clerk to recall the group or I should say the subhead.

CLERK:

Child and Youth Services, 2.1.01.

CHAIR:

Shall 2.1.01, Child and Youth Services, carry?

All those in favour, 'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

motion, subhead 2.1.01 carried.

CHAIR:

I'll ask the Clerk to call

the next subhead grouping.

CLERK:

Policy and Programs, 3.1.01

to 3.1.03 inclusive.

CHAIR:

3.1.01 to 3.1.03, Policy and

Programs.

MHA

Dwyer.

J. DWYER:

Thank you very much.

Salaries were $14,000 over budget and this year the budgeted amount is $2,000

more than last year's budget. Can you explain that, please?

J. ABBOTT:

The savings in last year's

budget were the result of short-term vacancies. Then the increase is a result of

some scheduled salary increases within that unit.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Last

year you spent less than one-third of the budgeted amount for Transportation and

Communications. This year you have not reduced the budget. Have you considered

operating as you did last year and reducing the expenditure?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, two things; again, we

were down one staff and COVID. We expect to get back to some more normal

operations and I'm certainly encouraging our staff to get out, when they can, in

this case to get out to the communities, work with the community agencies

dealing with the seniors' issues, the 50-plus clubs and all of that. That's what

we're hoping.

Also

the director there has other roles. He's responsible for adult protection, so he

has to visit the health authorities on a regular basis. He hasn't been doing

that because of COVID. Now we'll expect to see him moving on – sorry, moving out

to the regions.

J. DWYER:

I understood.

Last

year you spent $100 of a $3,600 budget for Supplies, and again you're budgeting

$3,600 this year.

J. ABBOTT:

Well, again, people were

working from home. We didn't need those supplies. We're anticipating now when

people get back to the office – and we were down staff as well. So we're going

to be at full complement.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

Well,

the government promote seniors staying in their own residence, on one hand; on

the other hand; you've provided a grand total of approximately $350 this year.

Home heating fuel was 68 cents a litre in 2016 and now it's $1.71. How can they

afford to stay in their own home without a home heating rebate?

J. ABBOTT:

Well, again, sort of a bit

outside our department's, I'll call it, financial mandate, because none of that

funding was or is in our department. The Seniors' Benefit and the Low Income

Supplement where the fuel rebate was incorporated into those supplements, and

they, as you know, in the five-point plan, were increased. We recognize that

people would like to see more; we recognize from the government end that we only

have a limited amount of funds to allocate and we wanted to get that out as

expeditiously as possible without incurring any additional administrative costs.

As a

result, we used the existing supplement system to get the money out. I know the

Minister of Finance then spoke to the financial planning around all of that in

the Budget Speech, but we're monitoring things on the ground. We're working with

any of the community agencies to see how we can support them and how they're

supporting some of the people that come to them, and that's why we provide

funding to Food First NL, as an example. They're closer to the action, literally

in the communities, and we're comforted that we're dealing with some very

immediate needs, and we'll just monitor things as we go ahead.

J. DWYER:

So with that being said,

when you work with Food First, are they distributing throughout the province or

just in the metro region?

J. ABBOTT:

No, that's right, throughout the province. We have a phone line, and they have

an application (inaudible) right now. I guess the applications are probably in

for any of the food banks or food programs, as an example, that need some

support.

J. DWYER:

Okay. And in order to

receive the seniors' supplement they said that was part of the home heat rebate,

and it was moved into the seniors' supplement, is there a threshold for their

income in order to receive that or is it just automatic?

J. ABBOTT:

No, it's based on their

financial situation as reported in their tax return, and then there's a sliding

scale based on their income. So we're taking advantage of that in place to get

the money out. Unfortunately, it couldn't happen until July 1, just from the

scheduling of the rebate by – because that's all managed by the Canada Revenue

Agency, so that's the earliest they could do that.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

With

the escalating cost of living and the added stress to seniors, and the increase

in medical costs, did you calculate the health savings by providing seniors an

amount to live in comfort? Because we do have some seniors that have presented

that they're making choices between their medication, or taking half a pill

where they're supposed to be taking a full pill.

J. ABBOTT:

We don't have any data on

that or any analysis done. Now, just as a personal observation, when I hear

those – because we have the drug NLPDP. So, again, if they're individuals that

aren't availing of that program that should be, we should be encouraging them

and certainly we need to do that.

So that

is the only thing that I can really think of that collectively we need to make

sure seniors know, particularly those who just moved into that age category,

that there is a program that is run and it is a good program and it is based on

income. But if you're GIS and all that, it is free to the individual.

J. DWYER:

So once they retire, are

they given a package to say what programs are available to them and what

thresholds?

J. ABBOTT:

If they were on income

support and transitioning over, yes. We start the year before, provide them the

information and make sure they know all the benefits they're entitled to.

J. DWYER:

Okay.

It is

good to see the seniors in the city get a bus pass but what do you tell a

person, basically I guess even in my district, that is unable to afford a taxi

for a doctor. As we heard here in the House today, there are people who are

cancelling their appointments because the taxis are either not available or

they're too expensive.

J. ABBOTT:

Well, one of the things that

we're doing within our program, albeit it's a small scale at this point, but we

are encouraging communities through this age-friendly approach to say, look,

there is an opportunity here and I would argue responsibility for, I don't care

how big or small