Manitoba Hansard — 23 June 1999 (Sitting 49, 36th Legislature, 5th Session)

36-5-49

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fifth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLIX No. 49- 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, June 23, 1999 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James DRIEDGER, Albert DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS,Ciif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen FRIESEN, Jean GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, lion. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley, Hon. ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin, Hon. VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River St. Boniface Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C.

P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

3273 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, June 23, 1999 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources Second Report Mr.

Peter Dyck (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources): I beg to present the second report of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources. An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense. Your Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources presents the following as its Second Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, June 22, 1999, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board for the year ended December 31, 1998, the Five-Year Operating Plans for 1998 and 1999, and the Report of the Appeal Commission for the year ended December 31, 1998. Your committee also met on Tuesday, May 25, 1999, and Tuesday, June 8, 1999, to consider these reports. Mr. Wally Fox-Decent, chairperson of the board, Ms. Pat Jacobsen, president and chief executive officer, Mr. Don Paul, vice-president of rehabilitation and compensation services, and Mr.

Alfred Black, vice-president of financial services and administration, provided such information as was requested with respect to the Annual Reports and business of the Workers Compensation Board. Your committee has considered the Annual Report of the Workers Compensation Board for the year ended December 31, 1998, and the Report of the Appeal Commission for the year ended December 31, 1998, and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Dyck: I move, seconded by the honourable member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the 19 98 Annual Report of the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund. Hon. Frank Pitura (Minister of Government Services): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the Supplem entary Information for Legisla tive Review for 19 99-2000 Departmental Expendi ture Estimates for the Department of Govern ment Se rvices and Emergency Expenditures. Hon. Mike Radcliffe (Minister of Labour): Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 19 98 Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Board. * (13 35)

3274 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill36-The Registered Nurses Act Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Environment (Mrs. Mcintosh), that leave be given to introduce Bill 36, The Registered Nurses Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les infirmieres), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Bi1137-The Licensed Practical Nurses Act Mr. Stefanson: I am pleased to move, seconded by the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. McCrae), that leave be given to introduce Bill 37, The Licensed Practical Nurses Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les infirmieres auxilia ires), and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, first, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have this afternoon Rick Borotsik, the member of Parliament for Brandon-Souris. Also, seated in the public gallery we have fifty-four Grade 5 students from Souris School under the direction of Ms. Tressa O'Brien and Mr. Glen Wallman. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minis ter of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Tweed). Also, eighty-four Grade 5 students from Henry G. Izatt Middle School under the direction of Mrs. JoAnn Eliuk. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Vodrey). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Flooding Compensation for Farmers Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, how fortuitous to have the member from Brandon here today, because Friday of this week, June 25, marks the 30th anniversary, since 1969, of the election of Len Evans as the member for Brandon East.

Thirty years. I also believe that it was 50 years before Brandon had a representative in a provincial cabinet, before Len was appointed in 1969, so it is- An Honourable Member: Time for a change. Mr. Doer: Well, we will not be talking about the member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), but he has seen a lot of members come and go, I would remind the member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Downey). Madam Speaker, today the mayor of Brandon talked about the tough slugging, with no end in sight, for southwestern and southcentral Manitoba.

This region and regions of Manitoba have been hit with horrible weather, with prices last year, with other challenges of disease on certain crops, and it is truly a crisis for some producers. As I understand it, the Antler River Equipment dealership just went down and people lost their livelihoods and their jobs in one of our communities. I think it is regrettable and very serious that the federal government would treat the disaster in the Saguenay or the disaster of the ice storm or the disaster in the Red River Valley different than this crisis.

Cabinet met yesterday, and I would like to ask the Premier: has there been any sensitivity to the plight of these people since the minis ter met, and has there been any movement between the Premier and the Prime Minister that he can announce out of the federal cabinet meeting after the unfortunate announcements made earlier this week? * (1340) -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3275 Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): As I indicated yesterday afternoon in our discussion of this matter in the Estimates debate, we are very, very concerned about the lack of response by the federal government to what is undoubtedly going to be a larger economic disaster to the province of Manitoba than was the flood of 1997. There does not seem to be an under standing of this matter in the federal cabinet. There does not seem to be an understanding of this matter by the federal Minister of Agriculture.

I can tell the member opposite that we continue to examine what alternatives we have to offer and to suggest to the federal government. The discussions, of course, have taken place even this morning, and I know that subsequently over the noon hour our Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enos) was in contact with the Minister of Agriculture of Saskatchewan, Mr. Upshall. Mr. Romanow has continued his appeal to the federal government to do more than what they have proposed, and we will be working in concert with them. I intend to speak with Mr. Romanow as quickly as I can get hold of him and pursue the matter collectively.

There are a variety of different proposals that we believe could be viable, and it is our intention after meeting with different groups and we are committed, I believe, to meet as early as Monday with representatives of the Association of Manitoba Municipalities who have requested a meeting. We are committed to get together with them to try and seek what may be viable solutions. But there is no question that we believe the federal response is inadequate.

We believe the federal response will not address many of the concerns, whether it be the local businesses that are being severely impacted by the loss of income from the customers, or whether it be the farmers who will face very dire prospects if they are not given more assistance, Madam Speaker. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, in the early '90s, I think the former federal Leader of the Opposition and now Prime Minister was involved in rallying an attempt to get some programs changed to deal with the disaster of prices and commodity prices in the early '90s which threatened many farms.

Ultimately, all political parties got together with producers and went to Ottawa to argue for and bring to the cabinet table, and to the national media centred in central Canada, the absolute dire situation. Given the fact that Parliament is not sitting at this point, and cabinet met yesterday-and I do not know when the next meeting is, but apparently it is a retreat next time-has the Premier considered an all-party delegation to work with producers and municipal organiza tions to show a united voice with Ottawa to get a decent crisis relief program, consistent with the crisis relief that we had in 1997?

Can we join together and bring our voices to Ottawa if we do not get sensiti vity back in Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, I certainly appreciate the offer of the Leader of the Opposition and know that we have his support in the efforts that we will be putting forward. I believe it is important for us to be working from the same page with both farm leaders and muni cipal leaders and even Chambers of Commerce and others. I think building a consensus and a coalition is an important aspect of where we go from here.

We have certainly put in writing and verbally our great concerns and even our suggestions to the federal government. Obviously, they have been acting unilaterally even to the extent of the announcement that was made last Friday, and that means that we have to find a better approach. I believe the better approach does include the building of a coalition or a con sensus, and it is part and parcel of the discussions that we will have underway over the next five days. Health Care Facilities Food Services Mr.

Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, in the fall the frozen food was supposed to go to the facilities, each facility going on one week after the other. It now becomes clear that HSC and St. Boniface cannot even receive the food that was supposed to be supplied to them, even though they are paying $110 ,000 a month each for food they are not getting because the

3276 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 19 99 renovations were never properly planned and were never costed. They are not even underway at HSC or St. Boniface. Does the Minister of Health still believe that the frozen food facility is going to be able to provide meals to all nine facili ties that signed on for this experiment which has gone so disastrously wrong? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): had an opportunity last week to meet with the board of directors of Urban Shared Services Corporation.

As the member for Crescentwood knows, the board of directors consists of the CEOs of all nine urban hospitals along with four citizens at large. We discussed a number of issues, of which one of them is the coming on stream of both St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre. Both of those facilities, both of those organizations are committed to come on stream. They are working with Urban Shared Services in terms of both the issues of the timing and the issues of the capital cost required to do some modifications at both facilities.

There are a few other peripheral issues as well, but both those facili ties and the Urban Shared Services Corporation are committed to making it happen, Madam Speaker. * (1 345) Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, why would the minister say what he has just said when the manager of a facility, one Kathleen Richardson, told the staff the same day that Joe Sheil quit that the current facility was simply not able to supply the needs of Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface Hospital? It could not physically produce any more meals than it is right now. Mr.

Stefanson: Again, I have just indicated I had an opportunity to meet with the entire board, with the individuals who really are on both sides of this issue. They are the board of directors of the Urban Shared Services Corporation. They are also the individuals who are the CEOs of all of our urban hospitals. They are committed to having both Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface come on stream. The Urban Shared Services Corporation supports doing that, and they are working on making that happen.

There still is additional capacity within the existing operation, and there might be some other modifications required to the facility to ultimately bring both those facili ties on stream, but both organizations and the Urban Shared Services Corporation are committed to do that. Mr. Sale: Madam Speaker, will the minis ter not now admit that this whole experiment is a disaster, that it is over budget, that it cannot serve the meals that it promised to serve, that the time line is out of whack, that the hospitals are spending money, millio ns of dollars in total for food they are not getting and cannot get?

Will he not now admit that he has to spend mill ions and millio ns of dollars extra, throwing good money after bad, because the facility he planned, his government planned, does not work, cannot serve the meals? Will he not now put it on hold? Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr. Stefanson: I remind the member for Crescentwood that, by consoli dating this service in one facility as opposed to doing it in nine other facilities, it will save in the range of about $15 mill ion in capital costs, less capital costs being invested in the one facility as opposed to nine facili ties.

Again, you can certainly do it more economically in terms of consoli dating all at one location as opposed to doing it at nine locations. The original business plan showed an annual savings of in the range of $5 mill ion. There have been some start-up costs. There have been some transition costs, but again, the Urban Shared Services Corporation will be coming forward with a revised business plan shortly, and again, this is not a short-term investment. This is not something that is being done for six months or one year.

It is a facility that will be in place for the next many, many years in the province of Manitoba, and it will save both operational dollars and capital dollars. Youth Advisory Council Status Report Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): To the Minister of Justice. This so-called gang hotline,

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3277 where they pick up messages every five months or so, was announced before the last election at the same time as some other measures such as the military boot camps. Remember that hoax? The Youth Advisory Council was also announced that same day, before the election, to be chaired by Craig Morrissey of Thompson, and it was to provide a formal mechanism to involve youth themselves in solutions to youth crime based on the very successful B.C. model. I ask the minis ter: how is that council doing? Hon.

Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased with the input of various community leaders and com munity organizations in respect of developing the policy for our government in respect of, I think, very successful youth programs. The member makes a passing reference to the regimented style of a youth facility-very pleased with what is happening at Agassiz Youth Centre.

That program has been moving ahead very successfully, and I think many of the staff are very proud of the accomplishments that are being made, not only in terms of giving a regimented, structured atmosphere for the. youth but also for ensuring that the youth are educated on a year-round basis in that particular facility. So I am very pleased with what is happening in that respect. *( 1350) Mr. Mackintosh: This is just unbelievable, Madam Speaker.

Can this minis ter not just come clean, 'fess up, simply admit that the Youth Advisory Council announced before the election as part of their get-tough plan has never met, not once? It too was bogus. Mr. Toews: Indeed, during the time that I have been the minis ter, I have been very impressed with two organizations and two groups that provide me with very direct advice in respect of the development of youth criminal law policy. The first is the Provincial Council on Youth Crime, which is headed by the former mayor of Portage Ia Prairie, Mr. Glenn Carlson.

This group in fact is performing a very important task, not only in terms of ensuring that the youth councils generally, the youth justice committees generally are functioning appropriately, but indeed that policy is being developed for the cabinet and indeed myself to consider. I will finish the answer in the next question. Mr.

Mackintosh : Would this minister, whose government before the last election said that as part of its aggressive attack on youth crime, this Youth Advisory Council was essential to, and I quote, integrating the views of young people into the problem solving-would he and this govern ment start integrating some truth into their fraudulent pre-election talk? Mr. Toews: Madam Speaker, I think those comments by the member for St. Johns are uncalled for.

The department in fact has been meeting with the Council on Youth Crime to ensure that we do in fact develop appropriate policies that are reflective of the concerns of our youth. The second aspect that I wanted to talk about is our youth justice committees generally, which certainly involve a community participa tion in youth justice and ensuring that our policies reflect what the community is looking for. I think these two organizations, then, the youth justice committees generally, which we are leaders of, leaders in Canada, are providing me with very, very important input. Madam Speaker: Order, please.

Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: I draw your attention, Madam Speaker, to Beauchesne. Answers to questions should be direct, should address the question that was posed. The question was very simple. It was: what has happened with this council, the Youth Advisory Council? Has it ever met? We are getting yada yada yada. Would he just answer the question? Madam Speaker: The honourable Minister of Justice, on the same point of order. Mr. Toews: I know that, as a socialist, the member for St. Johns is more concerned about bureaucracies and the names of committees.

What I am concerned about is that our policies are in fact reflective of what our communities want, that we have appropriate input into the development of our policies.

3278 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 19 99 Madam Speaker: Order, please. With the greatest of respect, the honourable Minister of Justice is responding to the question and not speaking to the point of order raised by the honourable member for St. Johns. The honoura ble member for St. Johns did indeed have a point of order. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable minis ter, to quickly respond to the question asked. Mr. Toews: As I was indicating, the importance of involving the community, in whatever form, is very important.

As I have indicated, through our youth justice committees and our Provincial Council on Youth Crime, we indeed have been obtaining very important information in respect of youth policies. * (1 355) Video Games Rating System Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, yesterday, in response to a question about the nonclassification of video games, the minis ter justified her inaction by saying, and I quote: The member has forgotten or misunder stood that video games can be pulled down on the Internet on computers.

But, of course, the mini ster's point is illogical and intellectually inconsi stent because videos and movies now classified can also be pulled down, downloaded from the Internet. So I would like to ask the minis ter once again if she would end the political side shuffle and if she would tell this House her real reason for not classifying video games, many of which are brutally violent, sexist and interactive and yet classifying films and videos which, by contrast, are less extreme. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): It is because this government does believe that there is a concern around video games that this province has in fact launched the first education initiative for parents, one that is not being launched anywhere else, to my knowledge, across the country. It is only the member opposite who is doing a political shuffle, Madam Speaker, and hers is simply the typical line of the NDP. That is simply to take a parental role, no partnership, no co-operation with the community.

It is our government's position that we in fact would prefer to be a part of a partnership, a partnership of parents, a partnership of industry and a partnership within government. The members opposite have no concept of partnership whatsoever. Ms. McGifford: I would like to ask the minister why she has not developed a partnership with video producers and the producers of films but has chosen to classify these while she has chosen not to classify video games. Where is the logic? Where is the consistency? Mrs. Vodrey: I ask the member opposite: where is her logic?

We began classifying in Manitoba in terms of movies, and I would remind the member that it is a classification system, not a censorship system. Yesterday her questions very strongly implied censorship, not classification. In our province we have a film classification system. However, the availability of these video games is available without any classification done locally. It is done, classified, but there is a classification system which is international. It is our government's position that we would like to work in partnership with parents, with the industry and with government to provide information.

Information does not have to start with the piece of legislation that the member opposite wishes to do. Again, I would reinforce the diff erence between both sides. Their side, Madam Speaker, simply believes in being big brother, move straight to legislation, total control. This government believes in partnership, working with communiti es. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, she could at least get my sex right. I am big sister, not big brother. Madam Speaker: Order, please. An Honourable Member: Georgina Orwell. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Ms.

McGifford: The Minis ter of Education is just indicating his ill iteracy in that comment. - - -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3279 Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honour able member for Osborne, please pose her question. Ms. McGifford: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I think it is time for this minis ter to admit and I ask her to admit that this public awareness push of an already existing entirely voluntary rating system is merely a plan to try to win a few votes for an election. The whole thing will disappear right after. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, this is an important issue.

Our government has accepted it as an important issue, which is why we have in fact begun this education initiative to give parents tools to assist them so that they can assess in fact what types of video games their children are watching. It is one that we are committed to. It is not one that I have found in any other jurisdiction. The member herself knows that in fact ratings are not done in any other province in Canada or within the United States. Technology is moving so very, very quickly that it is almost impossible to look at how things can be classified so very quickly.

The important thing is then to find a mechanism to provide a classification and an information system which is able to be used wherever people are, in the province of Manitoba, in Ontario, in Saskat chewan, when people go on holidays. This is an education tool. It is there to assist parents. But we have also made it clear, if in fact this does not prove to be helpful to families, then we have permissive legisla tion before this House which would allow us then at a date, if we discover this is not successful, to implement further legis lation if it is required. *

(1400) Physiotherapists Retention/Recruitment Strategy Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health. In Manitoba there is a growing concern, as we have more and more Manitobans who suffer back injuries and injuries of that nature, that there is a growing shortage of physio- therapists. The waiting lists continue to grow as individuals with back injuries will now wait months before they can actually get their backs treated.

My question for the Minister of Health is: what is this government doing to address the need for additional physiotherapists in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Again, Madam Speaker, as I have responded in questions from other members opposite, we have continued to dedicate additional resources in many areas of need, both in terms of attracting physicians, attracting nurses and reducing waiting lists and improving services.

So, this budget, our 1999 budget, includes some $194 milli on, a 10 percent increase, to address a number of the issues relative to accessing additional services and providing more support for more positions and retaining and recruiting our health care professionals. Mr.

Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health indicate, when we have 30, for example, graduates coming from physio therapy this year and you based it on last year where we had approximately 50 percent, just over 50 percent who decided to stay in Winni peg--does the mini ster believe that we have enough people who are entering into this profession to ensure that Manitobans are going to be provided quality service in dealing with issues like back injuries? Mr. Stefanson: The short answer is yes, Madam Speaker.

To continue to recognize the role of physiotherapists, we are bringing in some amendments to our legislation which will be introduced very shortly, which the member for Inkster I believe is aware of. We discussed it very briefly during the Estimates process. So, yes, we will continue to address ensuring that we have an adequate number of physiotherapists in the province of Manitoba. Education System Standards Testing Breach Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, a final question for the Minister of Education, and I ask the question: can the

3280 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 minister indicate if he accepts the findings in the Seven Oaks School Division report? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Education and Training): Madam Speaker, there are certain aspects of this report I find quite unsatisfactory indeed. However, the report does confirm that Mr. O'Leary breached exam protocol; we know that. That was previously acknowledged by Mr. O'Leary, and I notice that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) has begun weaseling his way out of this situation or trying to at least.

He initially said to Chuck Adler on the radio program that if his campaign manager did this kind of thing, he would resign. Well, he has been pretty quiet about that, but today he has engaged in some weaseling on the same radio program, and he is all over the place. The one thing the Leader of the Opposition needs to understand, I mean, if he wants to have credibil ity with the people, he should learn to face issues head on instead of running away and hiding from them. That is not leadership.

Leadership requires courage, something the honourable member does not have, and he is not willing to ensure that his own campaign manager is above reproach. Cardiac Care Program Surgery Cancellations Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): The Minister of Health and the government have made many announcements about increased funding for the health care system, and yet we Jearn of people who are in desperate need of heart surgery and whose operations are being delayed for long periods of time while the patients' health continues to deteriorate.

I have a constituent in Brandon who was told on April 21 that he needed a multiple heart by-pass and who now nine weeks later has been apparently advised that, because of recent reductions in operating room time and hospital beds at the St. Boniface Hospital, no one in the system seems to know when his operation will occur. So my question is: why is this happening, and how can we describe our health care system in glowing terms when it is not providing the necessary lifesaving surgery? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, in the whole area of cardiology, we have discussed this in previous questions from the member's colleague for Ki ldonan. Today in Manitoba we are doing approximately 1, 100 surgical procedures annually; that is up significantly. Health Sciences Centre alone last year was doing 50 percent more surgeries. So that is all as a result of dedicating additional dollars to health care in the province of Manitoba.

This budget alone dedicates an additional $194 mill ion, a 10 percent increase, which members opposite voted for and supported in large part because those dollars are going to address these very important areas like cardiovascular surgery. So again, there have been significant improvements in terms of access to that service, significant reductions in waiting periods. Any body who requires it on an urgent basis is dealt with within a maximum of 48 hours. Emergent issues are still dealt with in a short period of time.

When it comes to elective surgery, again those waiting times have come down very, very significantly because of the significant increase in resources dedicated. I remind the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and his colleagues, I am sure that is one of the many reasons they voted for this 1999 budget, because of the significant commitment to health care in this budget. Mr. L.

Evans: Can the mini ster-he can rattle off with a Jot of statistics-appreciate the anxiety and the stress that this cardiac patient and his family are having to endure on being told of the delays, while his condition continues to deteriorate? My question supplementary to that is: what is the extent of the planned reduction of authorized cardiac surgeries this summer at the ma jor hospitals, and what will this do to the waiting lists? Mr.

Stefanson: It is for that very reason that we recognize the concern of individuals who require this surgery, the concern to families and so on, that we have consistently dedicated more and more resources in this area, amongst other areas but certainly within this area. It is for that reason that we are now able to do over 1,10 0 surgical procedures annually. That is why we have been able to increase the capacity at Health -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 328 1 Sciences Centre alone by 50 percent because it is a priority, and we have dedicated resources to do that. Madam Speaker, there is one challenge across our health care system which is not unique to Manitoba. It applies to literally every province in Canada, one significant challenge, and that is the whole issue of recruiting more nurses. We have done a number of things that I have outlined on many occasions in this House, our $7-million fund putting in place more permanent positions, but in the area of intensive care we do require more nurses.

Like many other jurisdictions, we have a graduating class this October that I believe has 32 or approxi mately 32 intensive care unit nurses that again will continue to enhance our ability to do more and more procedures in this area. So it is a high priority for our government. We have dedicated the resources to deal with providing the support for cardiac surgery, and we continue to work on the issue of providing the nurses required to provide that surgery. Mr. L.

Evans: Specifically, what action can this minister take to ensure that my constituent does not die unnecessarily because of what seems to be a summer slowdown in providing services, including cardiac surgery? I mean, how can we be sure that this person does not die unnecessarily because he is being deprived of a cardiac operation? Mr. Stefanson: Summer schedules are not unique to Manitoba. They have been the case under our government, under previous govern ments and so on. That is certainly common in our health care sector, and it is common in other sectors.

When it comes to the urgency of the indi viduals' surgery, those are decisions the doctors have the expertise to make. It is done within 48 hours if it is an emergent situation. If it is an urgent situation, it is still done within a very short period of time. If it is what is described as elective, our waiting lists are still coming down and still continuing to improve in a relative sense within Canada because we have dedicated the financial resources to this very important area to provide the services, to reduce waiting lists.

The money is in place, and the waiting lists do continue to reduce significantly. * (1410 ) Cancer Radiation Treatment Waiting Lists Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): My questions are for the Minister of Health. One of my constituents from Flin Flon is suf fering from prostate cancer. He has been told that he will not be able to get radiation treatment for at least three months and perhaps for as long as six months, yet his cancer is very aggressive, and he needs the radiation treatment now.

Could the minister explain why there is such a delay when he is spending more than $675 ,000 on TV, radio and newspaper advertising, claiming that health care waiting lists are not a problem? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Well, the member may have seen an

article in one of our daily papers just recently on the issue of radiology technicians. There were quotes from the director of the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation about the issue of needing to attract more radiation technicians to Manitoba. Again, that is an issue that is a challenge for provinces right across Canada. So it is not a financial issue. The money is in place to do that. The money is in place to reduce waiting lists. The challenge for the organization is to attract more technicians to provide the service. They are committed to doing that.

I can outline in detail what that organization is doing to attract more technicians. They are advertising nation ally across Canada. They are aggressively recruiting individuals. They are attending a con ference of technicians, I believe this week, so they are taking all of the steps to attract more technicians to the province of Manitoba to continue to reduce those waiting lists. Mr. Jennissen: Since the cobalt machine used to treat patients at St.

Boniface Hospital is being shut down from July 5 until the end of August, could the minister explain why the province is wasting money on advertising instead of speeding up the necessary treatment for cancer patients?

3282 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 Mr. Stefanson: I have just explained for the member for Flin Flon, who did not seem to appreciate it or understand it, that it is not a financial issue. The money is in place for the organization. It is a staffing issue, and a staffing issue that is not unique to the province of Manitoba. You may have read the newspaper

article that you ref er to where they talk about Ontario having a program and changing the program and now having no graduates. So it is a challenge not only for Manitoba, but it is a challenge for many provinces in Canada. We put in place the financial resources to provide the support, to provide the staffing. The organization responsible, the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, is aggres sively recruiting individuals into that area. [interjection] Yes, they are. They are advertising nationally. They are attending a conference of these technicians.

They are going after individuals on a direct basis. So they are taking all the steps to bring into Manitoba more technicians to provide the services to continue to reduce the waiting lists. So the money is in place. The issue is getting the people to provide the service, and the Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation is doing everything to do just that. Mr. Jennissen: Meanwhile, my constituent with that problem is actually looking to going to Saskatoon. I do not think that ought to be the case.

Will the minis ter have his staff look into the case of the Flin Flon patient then, a case that I have sent to him this morning in fact, to ensure that this patient receives the proper radiation treatment he so urgently needs and needs right now, not six months from now? Mr. Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member for Flin Flon refers to Saskatchewan. Saskat chewan has shut down a treatment unit due to the very same reason that we are having a two month slowdown in Manitoba, due to the very same reason. [interjection] Well, the member refers to Saskatchewan.

They have shut down an entire unit for the same reason, access to appropriate staff. It is not a challenge just for Manitoba. It is a challenge right across Canada to attract more of these radiation technologists. We are doing everything in Manitoba in terms of putting the money in place, having the organization aggressively recruit individuals to fill the position. I believe they will be successful because they are doing a number of things to do just that. What that will do is that will continue to reduce the waiting lists for individuals like the member is referring to and for all Manitobans.

Cardiac Care Program Surgery Cancellations Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): To the honourable Minister of Health. I have a 78-year old constituent who wrote a letter to him and to me about his heart valve replacement need. He collapsed already, and he had undergone preparatory examinations since April. They were told he will be called for operation scheduling, but he had not been receiving anything. Whenever they called, they were told no nursing services available, no operating room available. Will the honourable Minister of Health have time to look into this case? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Health): Yes, I will, Madam Speaker. Again, the member is asking a simi lar question to previous questions relative to cardiac surgery. This is not a financial issue. The money is in place to expand those services. This budget includes $32.5 milli on for 650 nursing positions. I am assuming that is one of the many reasons that members opposite supported the 1999 budget. The Leader of the Opposition is shaking his head. They voted for our budget.

I believe one of the reasons they voted for our budget is because we have $194 mill ion more, a 10 percent increase in our health care budget, to address a number of very important issues to our government and to Manitobans. Certainly one of them is continuing to provide solid support for our cardiac surgery program. I will certainly look into the specif ic individual in the instance that the member brings to the House today. - -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3283 Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. Speaker's Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. I took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) on June 3 respecting my intervention in his posing a question on that day. I have reviewed the Hansard, and indeed the honourable member had put his question. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Prostitution Transition Program Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Madam Speaker, for the last four years I have been actively involved in addressing the issue of sexual exploitation of children in Manitoba. I know the importance of helping prostitutes leave the streets. I am pleased our government is working towards this goal with a new pilot project supported through the Justice Initiatives Fund. The province will contribute more than $146,000 to the transition program for adults sexually exploited through prostitution programs. To be run by New Directions, the program will provide a one-year transitional program for 15 adult sex-trade workers.

The objectives of the program include assisting participants with job searches and accessing further education, decreasing practices related to street involvement, developing better living conditions, increasing attention to personal health and self care, and reconnecting aboriginal participants with their culture. Collaboration with agencies and organizations is an important part of this project.

It was proposed by the Prostitution Diversion Group, which includes New Directions, Probation Services, the Winnipeg Police Service, the Public Prosecutions Branch, the Salvation Army, Training and Employment Resources for Females, Street Connections and individuals currently working as prostitutes. New Directions will work with the Children and Youth Secretariat, Prostitution Diversion Group, Winnipeg Gang Coalition for Healthy Communities, Coalition of Drop-In Centres, Solutions to Overcome Poverty, Community United for Change, and other organizations.

This program provides us with a positive way to enhance public safety and the well-being of the prostitutes while improving the ef fectiveness of the criminal justice system. Thank you, Madam Speaker. *

(1420) Cancer Radiation Treatment Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, the waiting lists for radiation treatment have been among the longest in the country for the last five years. While the Fi lmon govern ment has more than $675,000 to spend on promoting their misguided health policies, they have spent little time or attention on this serious health issue. The cobalt unit used to treat cancer patients at St. Boniface Hospital is being shut down from July 5 until the end of August.

As a direct result, as many as 10 patients a day will be denied treatment for this period, making waiting lists even longer. I can only imagine the anxiety and stress not only for the patient who is waiting for the treatment but also for the friends and families of those waiting. One such patient is a resident of Fli n Flon, who was diagnosed with prostate cancer in February and has been told it might be October or later before he gets treatment. His cancer is spreading aggressively. He has already had a very serious operation.

He needs radiation treatment right now, not a quarter of a year or half a year from now. This is an appalling situation which needs attention. Sadly, in this case and many others, the patients and families are forced to look to other provinces for treat ment. We have asked the Health minis ter (Mr. Stefanson) to cancel the promotional advertising and use that money to recruit radiation therapists. We hope the government takes this request seriously and finally makes radiation therapy a priority.

For the sake of my con stituent who agonized every single day over these treatment delays and for the sake of all those other Manitobans on waiting lists, I sincerely hope the minis ter will act swiftly to remedy this unacceptable situation. Thank you.

3284 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 Tourism Statistics Mr. Ben Sveinson (La Verendrye): Madam Speaker, Manitoba proved one of the country's more popular tourist destinations last year according to the recent figures from Statistics Canada. Total 1998 domestic travel, which includes other Canadians travelling to Manitoba as well as Manitobans travelling within the province, rose 16 percent to 6. 19 million visits from 5.2 milli on in 1997. Domestic tourism expenditures in the province rose 19.7 percent to 769.2 million in 1998, up from 642.6 million in 1997.

The province's popularity as a vacation spot continues to increase with Canadians as well as Americans. Our province's many festivals and events, along with a broad variety of outdoor adventures, are important drawing cards for tourists. Manitoba has some of the best sports, arts, recreation facili ties and natural beauty in the world, and when we add special events like this summer's Pan Am Games, the province's tourism appeal as a vacation spot is irresistible.

An estimated 100,000 visitors are expected in the province to attend Pan Am Games, many of whom will take in several other Manitoba tourist attractions during their visit. Tourism is one of Manitoba's more successful industries, providing employment for more than 52,000 people and generating more than 1 billio n in annual revenue. Much of the economic well being of Manitoba depends on this industry being healthy. I would like to wish all the province's tourism operators continued success as we head into the busy summer travel season.

Thank you for so capably showcasing our province's cultural, recreational and sporting opportunities to the world and for making our province even stronger. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Education Facilities-lTV System Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, the manner in which this government deals with the problems with the provincial interactive television system is symbolic really of the way northern Manitoba is often treated. The $700,000 lTV system at The Pas and Flin Flon schools did not work half the time, forcing students and staff to use telephones and faxes instead.

Many call this frustrating experience a correspondence system and not a high technology, leading-edge system. In May the system was down for some three weeks at MBCI at The Pas and Hapnot Collegiate in Flin Flon and up for just two days. The provincial government for some four years heavily promoted the lTV system before it finally began operating last year in any Manitoba schools. This past semester it worked for half the time at Flin Flon and The Pas centres, costing the schools extra costs. Frontier School Divisio n, Kelsey School Division and the Flin Flon School Division all had signed up for the program.

One major problem has been the fact that the equipment, parts and service all come from outside the North, delaying repairs when problems do occur. We hope that the commit ment to train and employ a representative based in the North is acted on shortly. Provincial Education department officials say that the problems with the system are being worked out and this fall the system will work much better. Given the long-term potential of such systems, we hope the performance does indeed improve. For northern students graduating this month, the system was a frustrating experience. The Minister of Education (Mr.

McCrae) should review this program to see whether some of the schools should get their money back. Thank you. Manitoba Society of Seniors Mr. Tim Sale (Crescentwood): Madam Speaker, I rise today to pay tribute to the Manitoba Society of Seniors who recently completed the very successful Seniors Games in Carman. I want to pay particular tribute to this organization because I think it exemplifies the strong traditions of Manitoba's voluntary organizations that combines extremely strong advocacy.

For example, the Manitoba Society of Seniors with other seniors groups across the country led the fight to defeat Finance Minister Martin's attempts to take away seniors benefits,

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3285 to legislate seniors pensions out of existence over time. They won that fight in concert with many other organizations. They pressed and were successful in getting full, open and public hearings on the Centra Gas acquisition. At the same time, as seniors, they know how to play, to have fun. They recognize the great skills that seniors bring to our society and encourage their active involvement in every element of our society.

So I want to pay tribute to them and in particular recognize those of the Fort Rouge city centre branch of the seniors' association who today held their annual meeting at the Hudson's Bay store, on the sixth floor there, had a very good program and elected a new slate of officers. I know that they will continue the strong tradition of representing both the fun and the involvement that we all have with our seniors as well as the strong advocacy and strong stand of principles on issues that affect not just seniors but all of us in our society.

So I commend the Manitoba Society of Seniors for both their activism and their great spirit of fun. *

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DA Y House Business Hon. Da rren Praznik (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, a number of issues. First of all, I think if you would canvass the House, you would find that there is unanimous consent to waive private members' hour today. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour for today? [agreed] Mr. Praznik: Secondly, I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will be called for Monday next at 10 a.m. for the consideration of Bill 33.

There are a number of Justice bills that we will also be announcing for that committee. I am just confirming the availability of the minis ter and will likely add those bills tomorrow to their list. That is, we are working that out with the opposition. In fact, I have confirmation that the minis ter is available, so I would add that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will be called to consider Bill 33 first, followed by Bill 4, Bill 11, Bill 12 and Bill 18, which I believe are all Justice bills. Madam Speaker: For the benefit of all members of the House, I will repeat the announcement.

The Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Monday, June 28, at 10 a.m. to consider Bills 33, 4, 11, 12 and 18. Mr. Praznik: Madam Speaker, for this after noon in Committee of Supply, again if leave is required-! think we are all kind of a little bit losing track of where we are in the order-but for the Chamber would be the continuation of Highways and Transportation.

In the committee room where Consumer and Corporate Affairs is currently meeting, that will also continue, and in the remaining committee room, we would ask if, with leave, the Department of Justice could begin their Estimates, which would adjourn at 4 p.m. and then resume the Estimates of the Department of Family Services.

Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous .consent of the House first to consider the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation, have them continue in the Chamber? [agreed] Is there unanimous consent of the House to consider the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs in Room 255? [agreed] Is there unanimous consent of the House to deal with the Estimates of the Department of Justice in Room 254 until 4 p.m., at which time the Department of Family Services will recom mence for today only? [agreed] Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, I would move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and that this House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Most Gracious Majesty. Motion agreed to.

3286 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE Mr. Cha irperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply pl ease come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Does the honourable minis ter have an opening statement? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Chair, I am pleased to present to the committee the Estimates of Expenditure for Manitoba Justice for the fiscal year 1999-2000. At Manitoba Justice, we undertake the development of programs and identify our priorities based on our government's and depart ment's vision, our mission goals, and the input of the people of Manitoba.

Our government's vision is to improve the quality of life for Manitobans. The vision of the department is a safe, just and peaceful society supported by a justice system that is fair, effective, trusted and understood. In Justice, we achieve this by providing a fair and effective prosecution service. We achieve this by managing offenders in an environment that promotes public safety and rehabilitation, by providing mechanisms for timely and peaceful resolution of civil and criminal matters. We do this by providing legal advice and services to government.

We provide programs which assist in protecting and enforcing individual and indeed collective rights. Another important aspect of achieving these goals is to provide support and assistance to victims of crime and of course promote effective policing and crime prevention initiatives in our communities. There are concrete programs and changes occurring every day in our system of justice, whether these changes occur in the area of policin g, of policy, courts, correctional services, crime prevention, victims' services and indeed a myriad of other programs.

I have heard comments that expenditures made in one area are somehow misconstrued as being a decision of government not to support services in other equally important areas of justice management. I think it bears repeating that the Justice portfolio has many competing areas, financially, philosophically, interest-based and constitutionally. The balance is a delicate one, and it is never possible to please all groups in soci ety on a particular subject. *

(1440) When there has been a horrific crime, we are all outraged about man's and, indeed in this age, woman's inhumanity to one another. Yet in the Department of Justice in our province, when such a crime occurs, we need to ensure that the rights of all people are met to ensure a fair, impartial justice system. As Minister of Justice, I will speak out as an advocate for victims. I also am obliged to speak out for offenders to be held fully accountable for their actions. I will advocate for reform in the law when it is in the interests of the public we all serve and in the interest of public safety.

In this context, it is important to remember that the primary responsibil ity for criminal law is of course the federal parliament. The provincial jurisdiction is lim ited to property and civil rights and other headings under the Constitution that have been specifically assigned to the province.

So while we can make advances and achieve certain goals within the context of the province's constitutional jurisdiction, it is always important to remember that it is the federal Parliament who passes the laws and which we, as a province, indeed all provinces in Canada, have accepted the delegation of prosecuting cases under our Criminal Code. Not all criminal statutes, of course, are prosecuted by the provincial government. That in fact is something that is always an ongoing discussion between the federal and the provincial governments.

For example, the prosecution of narcotics, which is under the criminal law-making power of the federal government and the criminal law power still is prosecuted by the federal Department of Justice. We of course recognize then the need for co operation between governments, between parliament and legislators, in order to ensure that the net, in so far as constitutionally and

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3287 practically possible, is a seamless constitutional net. So we advocate for refonn in tenns of improving our legal system generally, whether the primary area of responsibil ity lies with the federal government or where the province has a jurisdiction and a role to play.

At the same time, if I do not, as Minis ter of Justice, support a strong system to defend an accused's ability to make a full and forceful defence and do not accept the ultimate independence of the judic iary to make rulings within the law, even when I disagree with them, our society will not have one of the most basic principles which I am sure we will all acknowledge is essential to a healthy community and province. Just in the context of ensuring that accuseds have a fair trial, I am reminded very recently of a step that the Deputy Attorney General had to take by publishing a statement.

This statement was a result of activities of not only the media but indeed of the Justice critic, the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh), publicizing the names of people charged with criminal of fences, not only the names but indeed the criminal record of people charged with criminal of fences before those cases were properly dealt with in the court. Again, that would concern me very much.

So I certainly approve of the statement of the Deputy Attorney General, who states in his message: in the past months and certainly in the past several days, a number of media outlets have published the criminal record and past conduct of persons presently charged with criminal offences whose cases are now before the courts. The media have refrained from doing this in the past, a decision the courts and the law have supported on the basis that to do otherwise could improperly interfere with the trial of a person accused of an offence.

It is for this reason that counsel within the Department of Justice as well as the Attorney General and the fonner Attorney General cannot and will not comment on any suggestion that an accused person now before the courts has previously been involved in any court proceedings. To do so would be improper and could interfere with court proceedings now underway. I would just parenthetically note that any lawyer, of course, knows that it would be improper to do that, and so the statement here by the Deputy Attorney General, I think, serves as a very appropriate reminder.

Continuing on then, he states: the appro priate and lawful time to discuss such matters is when court proceedings are complete. I think that for my purposes at this time, that is sufficient. In Justice, we are focusing our ef forts on making our community safer for all Manitobans. In the Department of Justice we have taken a three-pronged approach: No. I, suppression and intervention; No.2, prevention; and thirdly, partnerships.

We believe that this three-pronged approach will result in a balanced approach to respond to the many very complex issues facing our competing systems and services of justice in our province. I would like to talk of some of the many exciting programs and services, Mr. Chair person.

I do intend on spending some time on this matter, within certainly my time allotment, to speak of the many exciting programs and services that are being offered in our province which have made it a safer place for people to live, which have contributed to a reduction in rates of crime not only in Winnipeg but in the rest of Manitoba, and indeed which I believe have contributed to an increase in the public's confidence in our system of justice. Although I may sound optimistic-and I am. I am very pleased at the success of many of our programs.

I am not as enthusiastic as the Free Press, for instance, in a recent editorial where it stated that the issue of gang violence was under control and implied that it was more or less a thing of the past. I think we have to be very vigilant to ensure that if it is indeed a thing of the past, that it remains a thing of the past. So I think that to simply say to this point in time we are successful in our programs and to neglect the challenges of the future would, in my opinion, be a serious mistake.

From the perspective of suppression and intervention, the government has taken an aggressive approach to the prosecution of individuals accused of breaking federal and

3288 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 provincial laws. We have put more Crown attorneys in place to carry out this important work. They are following a policy of vigorously opposing bail where there has been violence or gang-related crimes. This means that, while awaiting trial, and of course subject to judicial approval, these people are kept in jail rather than being free to live in our communities. Or, if they are granted bail by the court, the Crown attorneys do argue for appropriate conditions to restrict the actions of the accused to ensure the victim's and the public's safety is paramount.

If a court finds a person guilty of an of fence, our prosecutors will make an aggressive submission at the sentencing hearings within the parameters set by law. They will speak for the victims of crime directly in their submissions to the court, and indeed they will rely on victim impact statements in appropriate cases. Again, it is very important that, as a part of our new Victims' Rights Act, there is a specific provision ensuring that victims can be heard through this particular program. *

(1450) I know the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) had indicated that his preference would be to include oral victim impact statements when our legislation was last before the House, but, as he was well aware, the ability of the provincial government to adopt one of these programs is circumscribed by federal legislation. I am pleased, however, that the federal government is moving in the direction that many of us would like to see to give victims that option at their discretion to have an oral victim impact statement.

As it is now, certainly courts call upon victims to speak at trial from time to time, but my understanding of the situation is that that remains within the discretion of the trial judge. I think we would like to see the emphasis shifted, as the federal proposals are, to seeing that discretion then moved towards the discretion of the victim. Of course we would not want to make victim impact statements, either verbal or oral, compulsory. They should be available at the discretion of the victim and, of course, subject to the appropriate running of the trial. In certain cases it may not be appropriate.

All victims have a requirement to be informed about the progress of the case through the court process, and the act sets out the need for dealing respectfully and with compassion in dealings with the victim by all who work in the justice system. I think it is important to note that the overall conduct of the case on behalf of the people, on behalf of the Crown, which includes not only the victim but the accused as well, is carried by the Crown prosecutor. That prosecutor ultimately, after listening and making considerations, will be respon sible for the carriage of that prosecution. Mr.

Jack Penner, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair So it is very important that legislation not improperly inte rfere with that long-standing tradition of prosecutorial independence, and we need to respect prosecutors in the same way that we respect a doctor, a surgeon perhaps who makes a determination as to what to be done in the course of a particular operation. We do not have operations, generally speaking, by committee.

We trust the professionals assigned to the task, and sometimes we, as lay people, do not necessarily understand why a doctor made a particular decision or a dentist made a particular decision or a chartered accountant made a particular decision. In the same way, our Crown prosecutors, who I consider the finest in Canada, require a degree of professional independence that we need to respect, and so our legislation has to be framed very carefully and cannot be overly intrusive.

I believe that anyone who understands the appropriate role of the Crown, appropriate role of the judge, the appropriate role of defence counsel, understands the importance of a vigorous, independent, prosecutorial authority. In this context then, we have to understand The Victims' Rights Act. I want to say that, even though we respect the independence and professionalism of a prosecutor, we also want to hold them accountable and indeed hold each person in the justice system accountable.

That is why I think our Victims' Rights Act and the dealings of victims with our professio nal staff require some measure of regulation. I believe our act, as new - -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3289 as it is, is

an act that has found the appropriate balance that is giving a voice to victims and not in any way improperly intimid ating the prosecutor from a vigorous prosecution. In this context, I want to say that I was reading a newspaper

article about a case in Ontario where it was noted that our Victims' Rights Act was the only act in Canada, the only act, Mr. Chairperson, that in fact has an effective complaint mechanism. No other act in Canada, it was noted, had the ef fective complaint mechanism that our act has. The pendulum has swung back from the early 1980s and the introduction of the Charter when there was a public perception that only the accused mattered in a trial. Now the victims, those people who have been violated, are an integral and central part of the process. I believe that the dynamic has changed.

The emphasis of the right of accused, which is, of course, very important, does not unduly impair the important role of the public and the individual victim. Mr. Chair, the police across Manitoba, whether they are municipal police forces such as the Winnipeg City Police, the Brandon City Police, Altona, Morden, Rivers, Winkler, and others, and the RCMP are recognized for their professionalism and protection of the public. Consi stently, in public opinion polls, the police rank as one of the highest institutions that the people of Manitoba, indeed of Canada, respect.

We believe that our government has taken appropriate steps to provide not only our general tax revenues to provide assistance to municipal police forces, our government has provided $2 mill ion a year over and above any funding that we provide to the city of Winnipeg, to the Winnipeg Police Service in its ef forts to increase the number of police on the streets to respond to the policing needs of all of our citizens.

Very recently then, of course, it was announced that the province will expand that $2- milli on-a-year commitment in order to provide funding in excess of $15 milli on for 62 police officers to be shared by the province's three largest enforcement agencies over the next five years to do things such as help fight organized criminal groups such as street gangs and outlaw bikers. The proposal, the next step in ongoing discussions with the major law enforcement agencies, includes a two-year extension through 2004 of the program to provide the $2 mill ion and 40 officers on an annual basis.

It also provides for funding for additional police in Brandon and across Manitoba with the RCMP. *

(1500) Mr. Chairperson in the Chair As our Premier (Mr. Filmon) noted, the need to fight street gangs and outlaw bikers will continue to be a priority of this government as we work hard to make our communities safer. The funding proposal which was announced was made, I should emphasize, as a result of requests made by law enforcement agencies. Specifically in that context, the programs that will benefit from the recent announcements are the Joint Forces Intelligence Unit, the Winnipeg Police Service community policin g, and the ViCLAS system, the violent crime linkage analysis system.

Additional officers for duties to be agreed upon through consultation will be provided following agreement between the province and the police forces. I note that there is always a measure of consultation, a measure of interaction with municipal authorities to ensure that we are working of f the same page.

So, while we may not always be able to strike an ag reement immediately as to how resources should be implemented, I was very pleased to see that, as a result of the request of these municipal police forces and the RCMP, we were able to address some of the specific priorities that they had identified and targeted. During the discussions with the police community regarding how these resources will be used, we will consider how the impact of these resources may be measured. It is always important that, when we fund matters, we also periodically re-examine how specific programs are doing.

While that may not occur on a regular basis with smaller-funded programs where professi onal organizations are entrusted with certain amounts of money, certainly in a measure of this magnitude that would call for, and indeed I know it is expected by the municipal forces that we look on a constant basis

3290 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 to ensure that any program is being ef fectively utilized and that it is of importance in the community. I think it is important in this context to remember as well that government initiatives, government announcements, government pro grams go through many changes and phases and amalgamations. I think that is healthy. Govern ment announces programs, but nothing should compel government to go down a particular path when it is demonstrated or shown that there is a better way of achieving the same result. So we have to be mindful of that particular issue.

Very relevant in that particular respect is the issue of the seizure of motor vehicles for prostitution-related activities. This was an announcement made in 1995 which identified a very important need. It did not identify particularly clearly how that need would be addressed and how the mechanism would be implemented. So what we were able to do in a very careful, measured way, develop a program to reach the goal.

The goal, I think, reflects the intent and substance of the announcement or plan in 1995, but in fact there were a number of steps that were important, intermediate steps that I think go to shore up that program and will eventually contribute to its ultimate success. I refer in that context to the development of johns and janes schools, and I understand that in respect to the janes school, the preferred term now is diversion camp. So we are clear on what we are talking about, I will utilize that term, provided I do not slip into the old term.

But again, these two camps or programs I think are very important in terms of an educational component, in terms of a community component. It was certainly embraced by community organizations across Winni peg as being an important step, firstly, to let the customers of prostitutes know about the destruction that they were causing to their community and, secondly, with the money that johns were required to pay to attend this diversion camp or diversion school for the customers, the money was then used to fund the diversion camps, which have been very successful.

Those camps are funded then by money coming from the customers of the sex trade workers or prostitutes. The prostitutes or sex-trade workers do not have to put any money in themselves to participate in this diversion. It was after the implementation of that aspect of the program that the actual seizure-of motor-vehicles legislation was announced, and both aspects still run concurrently.

Judging from police reports in the media and in conversations with individual officers, this has certainly been a very important and useful tool for the police forces and, I would venture to say, for community organizations generally. The last announcement in that series was then the program announced yesterday run by the New Directions, which will seek to offer a more permanent diversion for prostitutes out of the sex trade and to provide them with more healthy choices. I do not believe that most of these prostitutes, mainly women, engage in this trade as a matter of choice.

They do so for a number of reasons, including drug addictions and lives that have involved no small amount of abuse. So it was important, I think, to continue along this continuum in that direction to provide these important services. * (1510 ) Another program that I think falls in very nicely with the emphasis on partnership, not only with community organizations or police, but in fact an intermediary organization, is the auxiliary police forces.

Today across rural Manitoba, serving with the RCMP which is the province's police force, there are currently 140 auxiliary police officer positions which the provincial government funds. This has been a tremendously successful and important aspect of policing in rural Manitoba. On June 10, our government announced that other municipalities will be entitled to augment or supplement their regular police forces by having access to 150 auxilia ry police positions. This would include municipal police forces such as Winnipeg, Brandon, Morden, Rivers and Winkler.

In addition, we will also expand the RCMP's contingent by 1 00 new positions, again funded through the provincial government. These auxiliary police of ficers, although sworn - - -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3291 as peace officers, will only exercise their powers when on duty with a regular police force. Again, we are very interested in working together with the various municipalities and, indeed, our own provincial police force, the RCMP, to ensure that these positions are fully utilized. Manitoba has for years had the most aggressive policy against domestic violence in the country. We have taken this secret crime and made it a public issue that in combination with a high presence of police officers has resulted in higher crime statistics.

I think it is important to note that if we did not have as an aggressive policy against domestic violence, our crime statistics, in particular our domestic violence crime statistics, of course, would be much, much lower. Our violent crime statistics generally would be much lower. I understand that of our probation orders alone in this province, of the 5,000 or so, there are approximately 2,500 which relate to domestic violence. That is a huge number. You know, Mr.

Chairperson, we could have kept this crime a secret crime, and for the sake of statistics kept our statistics down, but we think it is much better to ensure that people are safe in their homes as well as on the streets, that we pursue this particular policy.

I note that other provinces that do not have this aggressive policy against domestic violence may have lower figures in terms of violence, but as Statistics Canada has noted for the first time, our higher violent crime statistics are directly attributable to the aggressive approach we take to domestic violence and the fact that this secret crime is no longer tolerated not only by citizens, but institutions of government and the courts.

I think it is important also to understand that our policy against domestic violence does not short-circuit the legal requirements necessary to bring forward an assault charge in this context . There still has to be the tests that the police officers have to meet, the Crown has to meet. What is taken out of the hands of the police officer is that once there is the appropriate legal test made that every crime investigation must meet, then discretion as to whether or not to charge the individual is taken out of the hands of the police. That is, in fact, what is known as zero tolerance.

Zero tolerance does not, in my opinion, condone the laying of charges where no appropriate legal basis exists. That legal basis must exist. There have been many enhancements that have been made to respond to the recommen dations of Mr. Justice Schulman's report on the inquiry into the deaths of Rhonda and Roy Lavoie. I am pleased to advise that virtually all recommendations affecting Prosecutions, Cor rections, Women's Advocacy and Court systems, where in our control, have, in fact, been acted upon. I might note that in at least one case a particular recommendation that was recom mended by Mr.

Justice Schulman was rejected by the judic iary, which we certainly do not pretend to have control over in our system of independence of the judic iary. We might disagree with them, as I have indicated earlier, but we respect their decisions. The implementation of these recommen dations have been acted on, and this has required the dedication of government and community partners in approaching new ways of serving victims of domestic violence.

There has been an unprecedented level of negotiation and collabo ration to achieve the significant results outlined in the report of the implementation committee released last November. In addition, the government has committed over $2 million on an annual basis to the area of domestic violence. An important aspect of this entire program is, of course, The Domestic Violence and Stalking Prevention, Protection and Compensation Act. This act has been introduced. It has been passed.

In speaking to members of my department very recently, there, of course, are regulatory development issues which are, as I understand, very close to completion, and now the extensive training that needs to take place will, in fact, take place. The act should be in place in the very near future, and we are looking forward to ensuring that this civil act, which I think incorporates some of the best aspects of other acts across Canada but I think is unique in its total approach, will be unique in its success.

3292 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 Last year, I informed this committee that we had set up a Lavoie report implementation committee to monitor progress on addressing Justice Schulman's recommendations in the quickest and most efficient manner possible. I also advised this committee that the 1998-99 Estimates of Expenditure provided a total of 24 new full-time employees and $1. 2 milli on in increased resources to implement the recom mendation that fell within the purview of our department. This issue continues to be of utmost concern and priority to the department and to the people of Manitoba.

For this reason, I am pleased to announce, of course, additional supports, and these, of course, can be gone into more detail in the course of the specific Estimates. Added positions, added money to improve the delivery of programming and to increase our monitoring of domestic violence of f enders is, of course, very, very important. On April 30 of this year, it was announced that the province was funding a Family Violence Court research project. They received $23,800 to continue collecting data and information on the operations of Manitoba's Family Violence Court.

The establishment of this unique court signalled Manitoba's determination to deal with the silent crime of domestic violence in a specialized court. The information being provided by the centre will help government ensure the continued successful operation of this court for the benefit of all Manitobans. *

(1520) It is my opinion that we will build on our existing record to improve the way domestic violence is handled throughout our criminal justice system from the time charges are laid right through the prosecution process. I might point out that the Family Violence Court was established in 1991 as a part of the government's overall efforts to deal with domestic violence through the zero tolerance policy that I have previously alluded to. The court has been noted for its effective work in dealing with cases of domestic violence.

Our government, as I indicated at the beginning of my opening remarks, will intervene by advocating for changes in laws that are established by the Parliament of Canada. I spent some time at Justice minis ters' meetings advocating for change. The law is not static and we must respond to the changing criminal elements in our communiti es. One example of the need for change is the area of young of fenders. I have taken positions forward which reflect what Manitobans have been saying.

I want the law to deal firmly with respect to youth crime and especially violent youth crime, for if we can ensure that young people learn that there is no easy ride when you get involved with the justice system, then they will reconsider some of the choices that they are making. Recently, I conducted, along with the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) who was sitting as the Chair, a series of public consultations on the federal young of f enders legislation.

I heard from the people of Manitoba, young and old, of the need for ensuring that young criminals are dealt with in a way to ensure responsibil ity and accountability, but, at the same time, I also heard that we must give our young people positive alternatives to the criminal lifestyle. This is where we must speak or seek an appropriate balance, and, indeed, this was the message that I took forward to the federal Minister of Justice.

I am pleased to report that I was able to meet with the federal Minister of Justice to leave a copy of our report and to speak about some of the issues that Manitobans raised with me in the context of those hearings, those hearings that were chaired by the member for Emerson (Mr. Penner) and which I might indicate were attended and participated in by many other members from the government caucus. Our ef forts to support young people through programming have been eroded for many years by continued federal reductions of funds for creative programs.

I drew this to the mini ster's attention in the report, and, indeed, I have drawn this to the minister's attention on other occasions, where we want to make sure that even though young criminals must be held account able and responsible, we also need to ensure that appropriate programs are there for those who require them. - -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3293 We continue to partner with community organizations. The province agreed to a plan proposed by the Salvation Army Weetamah Corps Youth Initiatives that would see Manitoba contribute $64,000 through the year 2002 to that award-winning program. I indicated at that time that our government is determined to give our young people the best chances in life to succeed. The Salvation Army had established this worthy program, offers young people alternatives to destructive lifestyles, including falling in with street gangs.

I know that there are ongoing concerns in respect of that particular program with respect to the funding. The Salvation Army and the provincial government I know are committed to working in partnership to ensure that we work together to resolve that particular issue. The issue of partnership and the success of partners have, in fact, made our community sports camps so successful, as well as other urban safety initiatives such as the Kild onan Youth Activity Centre, the Salvation Army Kid Zones and other programs, again, very important that we continue to partner with these programs.

Another program that I know members of the House are very interested in and which Manitoba is taking a lead role in is the Citizens on Patrol program. I know that throughout the province and the city this is an example time and again of how groups of volunteers can provide support to local police forces by being present and watching for signals of crime. The member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) I know has, in his constituency at least, people who are interested in that, not only in respect of the COP program but other programs.

I know that both the member and myself are very interested in ensuring that we can support not only Citizens on Patrol programs in our own areas of the city where we live but throughout the province. The initial concern that I had was not that these programs were not successful in rural areas. They were very successful. What concerned me is how do we transfer that successful program into the city from the rural areas of Manitoba. My concerns I think were not warranted. To date, they have been tremendously successful in lowering the require ment for direct police assistance in areas of the city.

I know, for that reason alone, not only members in the government caucus but also opposition members have been enthusiastic supporters of this particular program, and the government of Manitoba is certainly pleased to support appropriate programming. *

(1530) By and large, these Citizens on Patrol programs have been successful, certainly in the rural areas have been found to be responsible for reductions of up to 70 percent in criminal activities in some communiti es. In speaking to police forces in the city of Winnipeg, as well, we know that they are making a tremendous diff erence in our core areas and other parts of the city. For example, in the Charleswood constitu ency, which a member of the government caucus holds that constituency, has a COPs program.

I believe it is called the Westdale Residents Association or that is the association that runs the COPs program. I have had occasion to meet some of the members on a number of occasions, and I know that while the program is not without its challenges, these programs always are with some degree of challenge, they in fact have been doing an excellent job in their particular part of Charleswood. Our citizens are saying to us: It is our community, let us do the job of making it a great place to live. They are not asking government to pay for their time.

They are saying that what they are doing is a necessary part of being a member of a community. Over 30 such programs are in place. I think my notes here might be a little out of date, because I believe that it is far in excess of 30 programs now, but a great number of programs are in place. With some financial support from the provincial government for some basic equipment, the volunteers are able to do their best to support crime prevention activities of the police. There are other strategies that we have announced.

I know that during the course of Estimates, I will be spending a great deal of time in talking about these strategies and ensuring that the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) has all of this relevant information, not only the

3294 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1999 financial aspects but the philo sophical under pinnings and the administrative requirements of these particular programs, so that we can continue to develop through discussion and debate what is the most appropriate way of dealing with this program. In this context, the program that we announced that we will be seizing motor vehicles from drunk drivers is in fact a very important step in a very successful program that has spanned approximately 10 years. There are a number of aspects to this program that I want to deal with.

Not all of it deals with provincial legislation, but in fact much of it deals with policy and strategy in the context of our criminal courts. There are a number of other matters that I would like to touch on. I know that my time is limited but perhaps a final note at this time, that is, the announcement that our province recently made in assisting the establishment of a national DNA data bank. On June 9 of this year, our government announced that Manitoba would help cover the cost of a DNA biology casework analysis system.

The province has agreed to share this cost in support of the establishment of a national DNA data bank in order to assist police to investigate crimes and help cases progress quicker through the courts. Again, this is in emphasis of ensuring that technology keeps pace with the demands that law enforcement officials find themselves facing. Once established, this data bank will contain DNA profiles of convicted offenders and crime scene indexes indefinitely forming a valuable resource for law enforcement agencies and prosecutors.

Indeed, in certain classes of offences under the Young Offenders Act, DNA pr ofiles entered into the data bank will be taken out at prescribed time frames. The DNA data bank will be primarily funded, controlled and maintained by the RCMP in Ottawa, but we have agreed to cover $1 million or 55 percent of the cost of the biology casework originating in Manitoba in the third year of the agreement. So, Mr. Chair, that gives you perhaps a

summary of some of the matters that we are looking at. Indeed, I look forward to continuing some of this discussion in response to questions. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honoura ble minis ter for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for St. Johns, have an opening statement? [interjection] In practice, debate of the minis ter's salary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department, and accordingly we shall def er consideration of this item and now proceed to the consideration of the next line.

Before we do that, we would invite the minis ter's staff to join us at the table. We would ask that the mini ster introduce the staff present at the table when they are here with us at the table. Mr. Toews: I have with me Mr. Bruce MacFarlane, who is the deputy mini ster. I have with me Mr. Ron Perozzo, the associate deputy minis ter, and the responsibil ity is essentially for the Public Safety area. Criminal Justice Division is the formal title. Mr. Pat Sinnott is the executive director of Courts; and Mr. Rob Finlayson, the assistant deputy minis ter generally responsible for Prosecutions. Mr.

Chairperson: I thank the minis ter. We will now proceed to line 4. 1. Admini stration and Finance (

b) Executive Support

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $470,600 on page 107. Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): A prelimi nary matter, further to the retaining of Mr. Leonard Doust for an outside review as to whether there is basis for further investigation or prosecution following on the Monnin report. Can the minister tell us when Mr. Doust's report is expected? In other words, has he heard lately on any update on that? Mr.

Toews: As you are aware, as a result of the report coming down from the former chief justice, the honourable Justice Monnin, as a result of that particular report, the deputy minis ter undertook certain reviews and made a decision in respect of retaining Mr. Doust. Mr. Doust was given a mandate that I believe has been circulated publicly. I am just trying to recall, but I believe that I, in fact, tabled that in the House. If not, I could do so. If the member

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3295 does not have that particular announcement, I could also make that available. That, in fact, outlines the terms of reference, indeed the time frame. We are expecting the report to come down on or before June 30 of this year, so very shortly. We have not yet heard from Mr. Doust, so I am not aware of whether or not he will make that time limit of June 30, but any conversations in that regard or discussions will be done through the office of the deputy minis ter. *

(1540) Mr. Mackintosh : Specifically, can the minis ter confirm whether there has been any extension requested by Mr. Doust? Mr. Toews: I can advise the member for St. Johns that at this time no request has been requested and none has been granted. Mr. Mackintosh: Perhaps the minis ter can help me, is his name pronounced Dow or Doust? Mr. Toews: I guess for the record it is going to be difficult, but it is Doust, That is with a "t" at the end, so the "t" is actually pronounced. Doust. Mr. Mackintosh: Just a question that follows on this, I know the deputy minis ter had travelled to Vancouver to meet with Mr.

Doust. I am just wondering what the purpose of the travel was and what the nature of the discussions was when the two got together in British Columbia. Mr. Toews: Just for clarification here because this is an extremely sensitive area, I have not sought advice nor given direction to the deputy minister on this matter. I do not want to be conveying instructions or positions that might in some way suggest that I have been advising or directing the deputy in this matter. This is an independent function of the prosecutor's office.

What I certainly would be willing to do is to have the deputy prepare for me a report for presentation here at committee, and then I would want to table that report so that there is no misunderstanding in that respect. Mr. Mackintosh : I would appreciate that because I simply seek information. I guess essentially from the deputy minis ter through the minis ter is the line of communi cation that we have. I am just wondering if at the same time there could be a clarification as to what were the matters of contention between the deputy and Mr. Doust in respect of the terms of reference for Mr. Doust. Mr.

Toews: Just in that respect, I think it is better that the deputy refresh his memory in that respect and ensure that all appropriate facts are brought forward. I do not believe he was prepared to deal with that aspect of this issue right now. So I think in fairness we will defer that issue until the deputy produces the report for the committee. I think that can be done in a very quick way, and then if any questions arise out of that, I think we could use that document as a guide. I understand from speaking to the deputy that every request that was made by Mr. Doust was, in fact, granted by the deputy. Mr.

Mackintosh: There are five working days left before the deadline for Mr. Doust's report to be received. Will the minis ter commit to making public the report from Mr. Doust on the day that it is received from him? Mr. Toews: If this were a regular government report that simply involved the finding of a public body such as the Chief Justice in respect of the entire inquiry that he conducted, I would have no difficulty in making that type of commitment.

However, because this particular investigation and inquiry relates to an exploration of whether or not there was criminal activity that should be pursued, it must be treated in the same way that any criminal investigation needs to be treated. So I cannot make that commitment, but I understand that the issue of release and the extent to which matters should properly be released remains in the control of Mr. Doust. That is the way it appropriately should be. Mr. Mackintosh : Well, the minis ter, I am sure, has analyzed this to the extent of realizing that he has a discretion whether to release Mr.

Doust's report or not, that he remains seized, if you will, of that responsibility. I wonder if he has already made a determination as to whether the report will be made public or not.

3296 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 19 99 Mr. Toews: Well, in fact, it is not a matter I am seized of nor a matter that I should properly be seized of. This is, in fact, a matter for the independent counsel that was appointed to make that determination. One can only understand why that, in fact, should be. I think, if I am not mistaken-that is why I should have those terms of reference before me-l believe that it was specifically set out in the terms of reference that Mr.

Doust would have that jurisdiction, and I might say that is a practice that I think any counsel in that type of position would always do. It is not something for the Minister of Justice and even the Attorney General in that role to be doing unless there is some overriding reason that would require that. The concern that my direction in that respect gives is, of course, any future processes that might flow from that report.

If it is seen that I have had even an indirect involvement in that particular process including the determination of what should be released, if anything, I think could give rise to some concerns. I do not want to in any way impose myself into that decision making process. * (1550 ) Mr. Mackintosh: Will the minister at least commit to making public on the day he receives the report, and if he is not going to release the report publicly, the main findings or the essence of the report and recommendations of Mr. Doust? Mr. Toews: Again, as the independent counsel, Mr.

Doust retains the responsibility for doing that. What I would like to be able to do, and I would certainly make this request of the deputy, is that if Mr. Doust requests any type of an extension, that I would be allowed to at least state that in the House or publicly in some way, because there is a public expectation because of the terms of reference that the report would be completed by June 30. So if June 30 comes and goes and nothing has happened, I think it would incumbent upon me simply to ask the deputy what has happened and, to the extent possible, can you explain why this has happened.

If the report comes in, the extent to which I can disclose the contents of the report is again within the mandate of Mr. Doust. Again, I would like to be able to at least say when that report comes into my possession, that at an appropriate time, and I would see a very short time following that, to be able to announce that in the House so that at least the public of Manitoba is aware that that particular report is in my receipt or in the receipt of the deputy.

I am not exactly sure where that report is going. [interjection] I just indicate that the report, in fact, is going to the deputy, just to clarify that, and the extent to which it would even be shared with me is a matter for Mr. Doust to be determining. But if Mr. Doust indicates that the report is to go to me, certainly I would want to be able to say to the public of Manitoba it is now in my receipt.

But the first person to receive that report would be the deputy minister, and I am sure that there will be perhaps a number of discussions related to release of that report, the extent to which it can be released, between the deputy and Mr. Doust even before I am aware that that document is in the possession of the deputy. Mr. Mackintosh: I have a series of questions, expectedly, on the gang hotline. Some of them I think the minister is well positioned to answer now. There may be some others that he will want to confer with the staff of the Public Sa fety division on.

I do not know, because I do not know what their role is. I begin with perhaps a historical question. am just wondering if the minister is aware as to whether any directions, either orally or in writing, have been provided with respect to the operation of the gang hotline since its institution in June of'94. Mr. Toews: I understand that when the line was initially set up, there was some exchange of documentation, but I do not have any of that in my possession. I am not prepared to answer those questions at this time. I think we should defer those until the appropriate staff members are here. Mr.

Mackintosh: Well, could the minister commit to providing me a copy of those - - -

June 23, 1999 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3297 documents so that we can look at those and review them before we get to that line on the Estimates? Mr. Toews: I use the term "documents" in the plural because I am not aware of the extent of the documents and to the extent that they are available. So I will review that with staff and determine what is appropriate to release. Mr.

Mackintosh: With the briefing note that we understand the minister had received from staff and which had indicated calls that I made to the gang hotline, what were the total number of calls that were indicated, not just from myself, but how many calls had been made to the gang line? I understand the period of time goes back to late 1998. Mr. Toews: Well, I will see what numbers are available on that. For some reason I believe that there were eight calls made. After the member authorized the specific release of the specific calls, the deputy provided me with that particular information.

That is not a list that I want to review myself. So there were, as I understand, seven calls that were made by the member, and I provided those to members of his staff. The only other suggestion that I can make in respect of the eighth was the call that the member referenced in the House that his intern had made. So I believe it is eight, but I do not know whether that is set out in any of the briefing notes that I have directly seen. Mr. Mackintosh: When did the minister become aware of problems of delay in retrieving messages from the voice mail of the gang hotline? Mr.

Toews: All I can indicate at this time is that I know that I had a number of meetings with staff in respect of the Estimates process, so certain issues were raised with me during the course of those Estimates briefings. As for an exact date, I do not have that. I will try to make that determination and see what I can discover. *

(1600) Mr. Chairperson: I am going to interrupt these proceedings of the Estimates of the Department of Justice. As agreed in the House, at 4 p.m., we would move into the Department of Family Services. I would ask the Minister of Family Services and the critic and staff of Family Services to please come forward to continue with the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chai rperson (Gerry McAlpine): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 9.4. Child and Family Services (

a) Child, Family and Community Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $3,301 ,700. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): A couple of years ago I obtained a copy of statistical data from Winnipeg Child and Family Services, a number of pages, one is called Placements and Related Costs; another one is Summa ry of Provincial Funding, and His torical Financial Facts, all very interesting reading for those of us who like numbers. Last year I wrote to the CEO, Mr. Lance Barber, and requested a simil ar printout. I have got that. It is dated March 31, 1998, or at least the stats are for the end of March 1998. I wrote to Mr. Barber again on April 20, 1999.

I requested the same statistical information. Actually, one of our research staff phoned Mr. Barber and was told, yes, we could receive that. However, a few minutes later we were told, no, that was not available. I am wondering if the minister has this information for me. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): I am informed we have not received it. Mr. Martindale: I guess I am a little incredulous at the answer. As the minister knows, this agency receives tens of millions of dollars from this government and this minister's department.

It is hard to believe that the minister does not have statistical information from this agency. Now, if the minister does not have this information for March 31, maybe she has it for the end of February.

3298 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 19 99 Mrs. Mitchelson: I guess I would have to see the kind of information my honourable friend has. I probably should not have been as quick to say that we do not have statistical information. What I would have to do is review the information that he has and see whether in fact it is something that is prepared on a regular basis and submitted, whether it was something that was done specifically for him or whether it is something that we receive regularly that we might provide. Mr.

Martindale: The minister is leaving me a little frustrated, because in a previous year's Estimates, I requested the information. The minister said I would have to ask Mr. Barber for it. So I did, and one year I got the information. This year, I cannot seem to get it. If I cannot get it from the minister and I cannot get it from Mr. Barber, where am I going to get it? Mrs. Mitchelson: I will indicate that I am not sure what my honourable friend asked Mr. Barber for. I do not know if he asked for information that would be provided on a regular basis to the department or whether Mr.

Barber prepared something specific for my honourable friend based on what he asked for, so if I can see, it looks like my honourable friend has tabled that information. Once I have an opportunity to look at it and have my staff look at it, there might be something very comparable that we have but, again, I need to know what it is he asked for, what was provided, and then I will be able to answer more fully the question. Mr. Martindale: The Clerk's office is photo copying the document. It will be tabled and then the minister will know exactly what it is that I seek. Perhaps this minister has more clout than I do.

If she requests it from Mr. Barber, I am sure she will get it. I look forward to the minister tabling it in the Estimates committee before we are finished here. I would like to move on now to the current reorganization which is underway at Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I did hear that there is a possibility that there might be major changes in the board of directors of Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I wonder if the minister has any information on that. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, there will be changes to the board. We will be releasing that information very shortly. Mr.

Martindale: I am wondering if the minister is willing to divulge any details now or whether you are waiting to have a press conference. * (16 10 ) Mrs. Mitchelson: I would indicate to my honourable friend that the announcement will be made shortly. I would imagine it will be made before the end of the time that we are through the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. Then we can discuss in more detail those changes. Mr.

Martindale: It is my understanding that as a part of the reorganization, and actually I have a very interesting document here, Program Management Reorganization Plan, April 19 99, for Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I presume that the minister's staff has the same documentation. It is my understanding that about 31 positions have been redeployed. I am wondering if the minister can confirm that 31 positions have been redeployed. Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes. That is my under standing. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me which positions were redeployed?

Do you to have a detailed report on the redeployed positions? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, our under standing from discussions with the Winnipeg agency is that they are going through the reorg now and that they are anticipating there will be full implementation by October or November of this year. They will have the same number of staff working in the system, but the goal was to increase front-line staff, so he has reorganized rather than on services in the four different areas of Winnipeg Child and Family into program areas.

The reorganization will create some delayering at the administrative level, so that in fact there will be more front-line staff. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, all of that information I am aware of, except that the

June 23, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3299 minister did not answer my question. I would be interested in knowing where the redeployed positions are coming from. Surely, they are not all going from senior management to the front lines. Whereabouts within the agency is the agency finding those staff to redeploy them? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, as my honourable friend does not have that infor mation, we do not know specifically, exactly where that is going to take place. I do know we have no detail around that plan, but we can certainly ask Mr.

Barber for that information and share it with my honourable friend. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister indicate whether she would have that information before Family Services Estimates are completed? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, we will certainly undertake to have as much information as we can before the end. We will ask that question directly and provide the response. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me if the staff that were moved to the front lines, at least that is my understanding, will be replaced by other staff? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I think I indicated in my first answer that full implementation will be October or November of 19 99, so this is the plan for reorganization and my sense would be that it will take until October or November to get full implementation and all of the issues sorted out. So they are in the process right now. They have put a conceptual plan in place. Very often when a reorganization takes place, it does take some period of time in order to fully implement it.

So I will find out exactly where it is at today from the agency and try to report back tomorrow on any information that I can obtain, recognizing and realizing full well that implementation does not happen over night, and that is why they have given themselves several months in order to complete that process. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister tell me how the reorganization is going to affect the east area? As the minister knows, in the past there were concerns raised by people in the east area.

They did not want to be separated from Winnipeg Child and Family Services and put into a government department. I wonder if we could get an update on what the agencies plans are for any kind of geographic redistribution. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, the reorganization will not remove any of the existing Winnipeg Child and Family Services, so east area will remain to be a part, although I think I indicated in my first answer that rather than having the four different areas within the agency, they are looking to program streams and reorganizing in that manner, but there will not be any change in the size or the demogra phics of the Winnipeg agency. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, can the minister tell me how much the deficit was for Winnipeg Child and Family Services at the end of the most recent fiscal year? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, the deficit was $4.66 million. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me why she thinks every year there is a serious deficit for this agency? What has the minister done in the past to try to avoid this problem? What are you doing in the current fiscal year to avoid this problem? * (1 620) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I guess we have to look at going back to the operational review that was done of the Winnipeg agency that had some recommendations in it on reorganization and restructuring of the agency.

As a result of that review, I think the agency has undertaken proactively reorganization, and they have looked at functional areas now rather than demographics, which I think is certainly a step in the right direction. We do not have more children in care today than we have had in the past year or two; I mean the numbers of children coming into care have stabilized. What has happened is the cost of providing service to the children in care has increased. Hopefully as they complete their reorganization-! mean, we are working with them on a regular basis-they will be able to

330 0 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 19 99 achieve some savings as a result of being able to provide better service in areas of common ground for families and children. The one thing that I hope will in the future have some positive impact on the situation in our Child and Family Services agencies will be all of the early intervention programs that we have begun to put in place in last year's budget and in this year's budget.

Through the Children and Youth Secr etariat, we have certainly much more proactive programs in place with the goal and the end result being that less children will have to be taken into care, to have service provided for them, that they will be children in more functional families that will not require the services of Child and Family Services, the mandated agency. So everything that we are doing now that is community based is hopefully going to lead towards the end result of having less children having to come into care. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, does the minister believe that there is any connection between the $4-million deficit and the reorganization? Is it possible that the agency was told to reorganize in order to get rid of their year-after-year deficits? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the whole reorganization and restructure has come about because of a couple of things, one being the operational review that looked at services to children and families and made some recom mendations on how families might be served better through some sort of a new structure and new leadership in the agency that went through ! have to give the new CEO a lot of credit for going through a very significant strategic planning process where he worked with staff in the agency to determine how to better deliver service.

This has never been about a dollars and-cents issue; this has been about trying to provide the best service possible for children and families. I think that was the whole process that has been gone through, and to go to a functional reorganization, the agency believes that they will be able to serve children and families better. So we have to look to those who have worked in the system, who have made recommendations, and to the new leadership that has come up with a plan that they believe will better serve children and families. Mr.

Martindale: Since the minister referred to the operational review, and since I have it here with me, I would like to refer to the executive

summary where, in the main findings, it says: The foster care and emergency housing systems, including residential care, are failing and forcing the agency to rely on expensive alternatives such as hotels and residential care. I would like to ask the minister how many children there are in hotels and emergency placements and four-bed shelters. Now I cannot imagine that the minister does not have the same information that I have from Winnipeg Child and Family Services, although I can imagine that the minister or someone in her office phones maybe Mr. Goodman, and Mr.

Goodman phones Lance Barber and says: Martindale is on our case; we have to know how many kids there are in hotels. But it would be more plausible if the minister or the deputy or assistant deputy actually had that information at their fingertips and did not have to phone every week or every month to find out what the current numbers are. I have numbers for March 31, 19 98. Surely the minister has current numbers at her fingertips. * (1 630) Mrs. Mitchelson: I have some statistics here for the 12 months ending March 31, 19 98, and the average per month was 36 in hotels.

I have the average for the 12 months-it would be March '98 to March 3 I, '99-and the average was 15 per month. For April of this year, and May, it has averaged 29 per month. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister keep going on her charts there and tell me what was the average bed use for apartments/shelters? Mrs. Mitchelson: For apartments and shelters, for the period ending March 31, 19 98, it was 81, and for the 12 -month period ending March 31, 19 99, it was 10 0, the average use. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me how many children were in four-bed units? Mrs.

Mitchelson: In four-bed units for the 12 months ending March 31, 19 98, there were 60 - - -

June 23, 19 99 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA 3301 on average per month. For the year ending March 31, 19 99, there were 51 per month. Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tell me what IPPs are and how many children are in IPPs? Mrs. Mitchelson: IPP stands for an individual placement plan. These are specialized 24-hour care, usually apartment-type settings that are not short term. They are longer term. Individual placement plans are specialized 24-hour care plans that are created for individuals, specifically to the needs of the child. They are for short-term assessment and treatment.

They are not the hotel-like accommodation, which is supposed to be very short term. Mr. Martindale: At March 31, 19 98, there were 18 children, on average, in IPPs. How many currently are there, or the most recent figures the minister has? Mrs. Mitchelson: For the 12 months ending March 31, 19 99, there were 19 on average. Mr. Martindale: Just as I suspected, the minister has all kinds of detailed numbers at her fingertips. I am wondering if she would table the charts and numbers that she is reading from. Mrs. Mitchelson: I will endeavour to get a clean copy of this and table it. Mr.

Martindale: In the operational review, it says that one of the factors that has triggered the current cost overruns, and this is in 19 97-there are two factors listed. One of them is a shortage of emergency housing which has forced the agency to rely on hotels and expensive residential placements.

I am wondering if this problem has decreased at all or whether it has just been shuffled around by putting children in places other than hotels, since, you know, the deficit is still as large or larger than in past years, and there are still large numbers of children in emergency reception and short-term assessment according to the categories in the chart that I have. * (1 640) Mrs. Mitchelson: I think the statistics indicate that apartments and shelters on an average in the year ending 19 98 had 81 on an average per month. If you look at the 19 99 figures, there are a hundred.

So there has been an increase in the number of children that are going into apartments and shelters for short term and a decrease in the number of children that are going into hotels. So what they are trying to do is develop more apartments and shelters for short term emergency placements. They have had some success, and they continue to work on it. The issue certainly has not been addressed completely yet, but that is the ultimate goal and objective, is to move children into apartments and shelters on intake rather than into hotels. Mr.

Martindale: I think the minister is actually proving the case that I am about to make, and that is that large numbers of children are still in short-term placements, whether it is a hotel, motel, apartment, four-bed unit. Really it does not make any difference. These are children that are either I guess waiting to go back to their family if that is appropriate or to go into foster ca

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-5-49
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 5th hansardpdf 49.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	482bf193551a2731e903cc240942b3fad1ae85a2

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).