Volume XLI Fr iday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRST GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 14 30 Mnrcb 1990

The House met at 9:00a.m. MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! I am now prepared to JnulE! on the question of privilege raised by the han. the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday evE~ning, the March 27th sitting.

I have examim~cl the s cr·ipt of the 1nadio broadcast in question which gave rise to the alleged breach of privilege; I have also reviewed the remarks of the Premier, in Hansard, given in response to the Leader of the Opposition on March 27, and consistent with the Premier's high regard for thr:~ office of Speaker and Members with privileges in general, I am satisfied there tA.Jas no deliberate attempt by the Premier to cast reflections on the Speaker. The han. the Leader of the Opposition in prr:~senting his point of privilege emphasized that ce1ntain inferences could be drawn from the Premier's remarks.

In order to be a question of privilege, the comments or words spoken by a Member must actually impinge upon the ability of Members of Parliamr:~nt to do their job properly. Beauchesne, paragraph 69, page 20, sixth edition. In

summary, then, my examination of thE! rE!levant matE'I'·ial does not disclost::~ a prima facie case of breach of plnivilegE!. Having mad€~ that ruLing, I point out to han. Members that in SE!arching all t.ht::~ authorities, I could not find one incident of this ever taking place. I am not saying that reflections were never cast upon the Speaker, I am simply saying the authorities' studies never quoted any such examples. L.1 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI I remind han.

Members of Beauchesne, par·agr·aph '71, SE!Ct.ion 1, sixth edition lAJh:i.ch statr:1s: "The Speaker should be p1notect.ed against rE!flect.ions on hts or· he!" actions ... " Maybe this is t.o.Jhy there is such a dirth of detail on the matter. Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Health . MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I am sur·e that all of us in the House recognize the ".important contr·ibutions l'fJC\de by Personal Care HomE!S to the hE~aOI. th services of our Province.

The Homes aJne- relat.iVE!ly srna11 in s i z e , t h u s p r' o v i d i.n g a h o n1 E:• ..... 1 :i k E! atmosphere to their largely elderly residents. I am aware that the cost of providing services to these tndtviduals is E!Ver increasing, and I, and the Government, are sensitive to the circumstances of Personal Care Horne operators. Ml". Speaker, I a1r1 pleased t:o advise the House today t:hat:. t:.he Government has taken a decis'.i.on to provid~ an additional $800,000 within the currr:'nt f:is cal yea I" to Personal Care Home operators to help enhance the financial viability of theSE! faci1tties and seJ"Vices.

While the Government: would like to be in a posit-.i.on l~o do ITIOJ"e for Personal Car·e Horne opr:'J"ators - in fact, the report done by rouche Ross su~Jgestr:!d this could be om' of the groups the previous Administration left behind in their increases - the unlimited demands that are placed on the No. 14 In

health care budget and our limited resources prevent us from doing any more at this time. We shaLL however, continue to give careful consideration to the financial requirements of these facilities . We wiLl. continue to monitor them, Mr. Speaker, over the next months. fhis $800,000 t~o.lill do much to assist the Personal Car ·e Horne:~ operators. For example, for a home which has twenty subsidized beds fully occupied, it tAd.ll mean an increase in their current year's allocation of $14,000. Mr.

Speaker, lAJhile this allocation is a one-time allocation, as I indicated, we t~o.Ji.ll continue to give ongoing consideration to the requirements of Personal Care Home operators. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for St. John 1 s East. MS DUFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . It is normal for Members who stand in re sponse to Ministerial Statements to thank the Minister for the courtE!SY of having given them a copy of the statement beforehand .

My thanks this morning are somewhat equivocal, because I received two statements ttAJo minu tes before coming into the House and one of them is four pages long. I am good, but I am not that good; I could hardly have time to read them let alone assess them . It was announced they were coming so they tAJere obviously ready. However, having said that I cannot be negative about good netAJs and I am pleased that. the Minist.E!r has been able, in difficult :. titTles, to allocate anothE!r $800,000 for the L2 March 30, 1990 Uol XLI Personal Care Horne opE!rators .

The Minister does make reference to the fact that it tAJoulcl haVE! bHen nice if he could have provided more, but his budget this year· was a 1 itt 1 e d iff i cult . H ~::~ is a tAla r e , I arn sure, that ToLtche Ross did an independent study indicating that a 20 per cent increase was r(~quir·ed to bring thosE:~ operators up to an approptniate lE!Vel , and this $800,000 For the Personal Car'E! Horne opE!rators cet"tainly lAd 1.01. fall far short oF that.

But any improvement is certainly welcome, because with the demographic situation that we have in Newfoundland. the increasing numbers of people who are requiring care and the pressure that has bE:1en placed on ot.tr' acutE• care hospitals providing b' ~ds for those people, it :is CE'lnta :i.nJ.y something 1:o bE! 1:!ncoutnag'''d, Lo have thE:' p1nivate OPE:'I"atJJinS lAJho have played a very, vc::~ry import .ant role in the health care system encouraged to do so by making i.t financially feasible. Now, thN'e is no lAJay I can LEd 1 from the information here what, l.n fact, the percentage increase was .

No t o n 1 y do I no t h a v E:! a calculator, but there is one critical piece of information missing, the total number of nursing home care beds and the total number· of opE!rat:ors. I do not want to be too picky about this. It is good. It is was announced in the Budget. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I rem:i.nd the hon. ME!l'Tlbet" that she:' is taking up the time of Minister now, so couJ.d the Member please clue fifteen seconds? MS DUFF : - ---- No. 14 up in t:en the hon . or I~ 2

I thank the Minister for seeing fit to give an $800,000 increase to the operators and hope that possibly it will not be a one time allocation, but next year we may see fit to raise it a little closer to the 20 per cent recommended. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Plnem:i.IOH' . PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker. I should have done this before we got into Statements By Ministers. and I apologize. I was talking to somebody at the time and I was not paying appropriate attention. I wanted to advise the House of some bad news. I am sure all hon. Members will agree.

The father of the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations (Ms Cowan) died this morning, and shE· has had to J.eave . to go her family home in Ontar·io. I am confident. Mr. Speaker. that all hon. Members would want me to ask you to send an expression of our deepest sympathy toMs Cowan's family on this sad occasion. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : Th~~ hon. the Leader. Opposition House MR . SIMMS : Mr. Speaker. I am sure I speak for all Members on this side.

As well, we would like to be associated with the sentiments expressed by the Premier and express our deepest sympathy to the Minister and to the rest of the Members of her family. MR. SPEAKER : Statements by Ministers . MR. DECKEr~: 1..3 March 30, 1.990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health . MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I have anoth er statement, but I should say to the han. Member for St. John's Eas t (Ms Duff) that lAJhen IJ.Je IJ.JE!Ine sitting over· therE!, the PagE'S USE!d to b1ning the stabc'ITIE!nts across w h ~;~ n t: h C~! M i n :i. s t e In s we I" ~:! rna k :i. n q th.:~m.

So l:hings have clv.ln(jed substantially, she at least has got five minutes. Mr. Speaker, in the 1990 Budget delivered on Thursday, March 15, this Government demonstrated its commitment to enhance the Province's Health Care Syst~m . A total of eigh l: thirty-four million allocated to health Province. That lAJas ten pE!r cent OV(:O!r For 1989/90 . hund1~ed and dollai"S lJ.Ja S car1:~ in this an inc r· E• as E! of l:he allocat:i .on What I would like to do today, Mr.

Speaker, is to outline, in more detail, for the Members of the House and for the people of the Province, exactly where and how some of these funds are being aJ.located. I Llli11 addre ss the a11ocati on under two separ ate cat egori es: Hospital and Nursing Home Operations, and Capital Equipm ent . Under the first. cat!:'qoJny, Hospoi .l:.a1 and NUJ"sing Horne Oper-ations: W:lth resp€~ct to thE~ announcE:~rnent by Government in the 1990/91 Budget Speech that additional nursing positions would be allocated to hospitals and nursinq ho111es, I am pleased to advise, Mr.

Speai<E!I ", that a total of thirty-three additional Reg istered Nur sing No . 14- 1n

positions have been allocated in the following hospitals: Janeway Child Health Centre. St. John 1 s; General Hospital; St . Clare 1 s Mercy Hospital; Grace General Hospital; Carbonear General Hospital; James Paton Memorial Hospital at Gander; Brookfield Hospital. Mr. Speaker - I believe Your Honour represents that par ticular District - Central Newfoundland Regional Health Care. Grand Falls; Notre Dame Memorial Hospital, Twillingate; Western Memorial Regional Hospital. Stepehnvil1.e - in Corner Brook. I am sorry. Mr.

Speaker. there is a typographical error here this morning; the Grenfell Regional Health Services, St. Anthony, which ~,,_Ji l l take in the District I am proud to repr·esent and a part of the District up on the Labrador Coast were nurses are badly needed; we st.i11 have stations up there which are served by only one nurse, Mr. Speaker, and this is the kind of a ·health care initiative we are trying to address the problem with it.

Within the Nursing Home sector, an additional thirty-two residential care positions have been allocated to the following homes: North Haven Manor in Lewisporte is getting extra staff; Interfaith Nur·sing Hom~;;) in Corner Brook. Blue Crest Manor in Gr·and Bank is getting E!Xtra positions; Glenbrook Nursing Home in St. John 1 s; the Paddon Nuring Horne in Goose Bay; St . Lukes Nursing Home in St. John 1 s; Pentecostal Nursing Home in Clarke 1 s Beach; Bonnews Lodge in Badger· 1 s Quay; Harbour Lodge in Carbonear; and the Interfaith Nursing Home, Mr. Speaker, in St. Anthony.

The Department of Health has also L4- March 30, 1990 Vol XLI provided additional funding to thE• General Hospital, Hea1th Sciences Cent1ne, to enhanc~;;' the Cal"diac Surgery Program and open fifteen additional acute car·c:! bE!dS. This is in response to an identified need to more fully address the Province 1 s Open Heart Surgery Program and also provide additional tertiary care services. James Paton Memorial Hospital, Gander, has been pr·ovidE!d t.~.dth the funding to open ten acute care beds.

Western Memorial Regional Health Centre in Co1"ne1n Brook has been provided with the funding to open twelve acute care beds. These additional beds will greatly assist these hospital.s in ITIE!et..-i.ng the medical and surgical nN!cls of people requiring hospitalization in those regions. I should point. out, Mr. Speaker, that these btH1s are ove1n and abov~~. That. is not counting the surnrner beds oF lAJhi.ch we will be keeping mor·e open than we have been doing in past years. These are beds which were never in the history of the world have been open before.

At the Central Newfoundland Hospital in Grand Falls, fund..-ing has been a1located to inc1nease Lhe number of rn~~dical/su1ngica1 bE!cls by eighteen. This ties in wit :h in their re-development of services and programs over the past five years. and their ongoing recruitment of specialists. Mr. Speaker. they had not: been fully able to address their fn<Hldate because they did not have the specialists, but over the past year they have been fcll"tunate enough to rE!CruH: the sped.alists and now we have to Fund them so they can perform their mandate . Ca1nbonear Carbonear. Hospital.

No. 1'1 - General Hospital, Roddick Sir Thomas Stephenvi1le and I~ 4

Grenfell Regional Health Services have been allocated funds to co mm e n c e a Me n t a 1 H e a l t h Pro g ram . This is in keeping with the Government 1s commitment to expand such services throughout the Province. At present, Mental Health Services are available at Labrador City, Goose Bay, Channel/Port aux Basques, Corner Brook, Grand Falls, Gander, Clarenville, Burin Peninsula and all hospitals in St. John 1 s. This is one area, Mr.

Speaker, where we had to pay particular attention, be c au s e wi t h a 11 the o the r t hi n g s the previous did not get around l~o doing - I do not want to attribute motives, I just state the facts -­ that is one area that somehow sort of slipped through the cracks and we are trying to address it as fast as we possibly can. In StephE!nville, at Uw Sir Thomas Roddick Hospital, funds have been provided to cover the operating costs for new specialists which, Mr. SpeakE!r, the hospital has, for the first time in the his tory of the world, been successful in recruiting, Mr. Speaker.

I think that is good news. -~.Q.MI__!!_Q_~_: , .. _1'1.E M B ~--~ S : Hear, hear! MR. DECKER: Mr·. Speake1n, undt::~r the Capital Equipment Budget, I am pleasod to advise you, that this Gove1nnrnent. is committing two million do11ars to cost-sharing arrangements with hospi t.als around the Provine!.':~ for the purchase of high-·techno1o~JY equipment. We have to keep up, Mr.

Speake1n, with the modern day equipment which is being made availabJ.e to . institutions, and we are not content to allow our technology to falJ. back into the dark ages; tAle tAJant to keep right up there with the rest of the LS March 30, 1.990 Vol XLI nation, ready for l:he twen l:y-fi1ns t century. Funds are also being allocated l:o acquire equipment to operate the addiU.onal beds at lhr:' Health Sciences Centre which have been dE!Signated fotn the Car·diac ~)ur'gE!Iny Program. Mr.

Speakt::~r, t~-.JhE!n tAle open up extra intensive care units and when we open up extra operating r·ooiTIS, thc:-1t rnecHlS that it sets off a chain 1n~~acl~.ion and we are providing the money to open up the extra beds for that. As part of the Governrnent 1s program to provide nursing homes with emergency generators, $600,000 has br:!en connn:itl~E!cl to purchase generators for Hoyles-Escasoni and Glenbrook Lodge in this upcoming fiscal year. In conclusion, Min. Speake In, as I outlined 'in my comm1:!ni:s on t.he Budget, most people in the Province recognoi.ze that this is a good Budget.

A Budget which reflects the Government 1s strong cornrrd.tment to thE! ht::'alth cat"<:• needs of the 1nesidents 'of l .. he Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: •ooo•oop••-·-·-···--·-·--··-·-··-·------•00 Hear, hear! MS DUFF : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : ThE! hon . the Mernb~~r for· St.. John 1 s East. MS DUFF: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am not entirely sure why we need l:.his Ministerial St.atE!Inent l:.his morning since I thtnk people alr·eady acknot~-.JlE•dgc::~ l:.hat. it t~-.Jas a welcomed addition to the Budget in No . 14. I~ 5

Health - a lot of emphasis has been placed in l:he Budget Sp(~ech on Health - and because we are going into the Budget Estimates Committees next week, which is the appropriate time I think for this kind of detail to be discussed. However, I can understand that the Minister is very proud of his Budget and he likes to have the opportunity to say it again and again and again. We are pleased as an Opposition that the 10 per cent increase in the overall funding for health this year was made possible by GovernrnE!nt, because health is very important in thE! scale of things in the Province.

It tAJas, in fact, 3 per CE•nt higher than last year but, then again, last year tAJas the second lowest of the previous seven years. ~ut ~nything helps. With respect to the details of the announcement, certainly it is good news that there are to be thirty-three additional registered nursing positions allocated. I think there were thirty-three last year, as well.

I believe the study identifed a shortfall of something like 139, so I assume that is an ongoing increase that will begin to bring us up to level, because the Nursing Task Force did strongly identify understaffing as on1;! of thE! very serious problems with the morale of the nursing profession. Now we have been given the details of the list to which the nursing positions tAJill apply. HolAJever, it does not tell us what goes to whE!re. But, from a quick glance, it looks as if they will mostly be allocated to the teritary and secondary hospitals.

I believe that is a good move, because in our current tAJay the health s y stern works right now, acute care 1._6 Malnch 30, 1990 Vol XLI hospitals, particularly the teritary and secondary hospitals, have people who are really ill and the actual workload of the nuJnse per patient is far gr'eatE•r than a similar comparison of ten years ago because the people they are dealing \Aiith are sickE!r, and you really do not have much of a break. It is good news, also, that thet"E! will be an additional thirty-two residentiaJ. carE! positions in tl·w hornes that a1ne listed ~lE!Jne.

I do not have a lot of time to look and see where the actual needs were identified. I do know that I recently visited the Blue Crest Manor and found the staff there very stressed From the point of view of ca1.lbacks, sorne of' them hardly had any U .me off bE!Cause they were constantly bE!ing calJ .,::-cl back because th1:!Te sj_tnp1y t.~.Jas not enough staff. The additional funding to enhance the Cardiac Surgery Program is excellent net.~.Js. Very welcomed by the hospital, and I tAJas defin:il:.('!ly very pleased to see it.

I do not need to cornrnE!nt on a]] or this, but on the third page the Capita 1 E q u i p·m E! n t B u cl g e t o r· $ 2 million to cost -sharing arrangement with hospitals was desperately needed. It is very sad to have seen in the last nurnbetn of years l:l1e nE!ecls for high-tech equipment having to be met tAli th a begging bowl approach. The fact that it i.s cost --·sharecl, of course, does not eliminate that a p p r o a c h , b u t I t h i. n k i t tAli J. 1 b e welcomed.

I am not sur~~ $2 million is even close to enough in ter·ms of the actual nE•E!d, but i·t is welcomed that. there is an additional $2 million in the Budget this year. I think I tAJ:i.11 reserve any further comments For t h e B u d g e t E s t i m a h' s Co n11 n i t t e E:' s , No . lt~ 1~6

Mr. Speake!". MR. GILBERT: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Mf~. GILBERT : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have some more good news from my DE!partment this rnon1ing. Las l year about this tim~;:~ we wer·e promising a reduction in the ferry rates to bring them in line tAdth the road travel, so I am proud today. Ml". Speaker, to announce the second phase of the three phase reduction of the non--cornrnertcal fel"ry r·ates on the Province's interprovincial ferry system lAJhtch will take effect on Apl"il 1, 1990.

Rates for vehicles and passr:~ngers are being reduced as part of the Government's decision to bring rates in line with the cost of equivalent road travel. The first rate reducU.on took place October 1, 1989, and the third and final reduction will take place April 1, 1991. By April 1991 the cost of ·travelling on intra-provincial ferries will be less than half the 1989 levels. Passenger rates will be approximatE!ly one ·--third of vehicle rates for adults with continuatton of appropriate discounts for seniors. students and commuttng IAJO r' k e r s .

Fol" example, the presc:=!nt rate for passenger vehicles, including drivE! r . for a one way crossing on the Bell. Island service is $3 .00. As of Apt"il 1st.. this rate t .... dll drop to $2.50. 1,_7 Mar·ch 30, 1990 Vol XI...I SOME HON. MEMBERS: H(,~al". hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr _ Speaker . Mf~ . SPEAKER : The han. the Mr:~mbE!r fol" Ki.lbroi .de . MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . First of a11. I IJ..Jctnt. to thank the Minister For sE•nding rnE! a copy of his statem~;:>nt. Ml". SpE!ak~;:'r', as I said the last time the Ministe1" announced th€:' fil"St .phase of his rate rE!ductions.

I applaud hirn for trying to do sOIIIE!t.hing to eltrninate some of the E:~xpense r~or people IJ..Jho live on the isJancls. I again applaud him for his sc:!cond phase of r·E'Ciuc-U.on. But, Ml". Speaker, I do rc:~1noi . ncl hon.

MelribE!I"S and I remind the peopJe of this Province that the Liberal's promise in the 1ast. e1(o!Ct'.i.on lAJas not to just eliminate sorne r·ates, the Liberal promise in the 1asl election was to make sure that anyon(,~ trave11ing on fE!I"d .E:!S lAJoulcl not have to pay any mo1"e l~han the.y would by travelling the same distance by roe1.d. rhis does not meet l~he rr:~quirern~;:~nt yet, and he says here that his Fina1 ratE! reducU.on is Apl"il lst, 1991.

Even at that rate of rEH~uct:ion he wi11 not live up to thl~' L..oi.bE:!I"aJ.' s pr·ornise in the last election, and th(c! pE!OpJ.e, E:'Spec:iaJ.] .y th0s1:~ L1.JhO 1ive on those islands, Mr. SpE!aker. want the Libr:'r'a1s to J. t vE:· up to their· pl"ornise. I ·f any of thE!rTI VOtE!cl rOI" them, that is L<.Jhy they voted for them. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The hon. gent1eman he:~ is now exceeding the toi.me of the Moi.nis t er. No. 14 Wl

MR. R. AYLWARD: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Just to clue up. I congratulate the Minister for this little step. I expect him to live up to the promises he and the Premier made during the last election. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, heal"! MR. SPEAKER: Before proceeding to Oral Qu~~sti.ons I IAJould like to welcomE:~ to the Speaker • s gallc:1ry today on behalf of han. Members, thirty post-secondary students, accompanied by their instructors Miss Philips and Miss Ackerman, from the LawlnE!nCe CollegE:~ herE! in St. John•s. _§_9_~-~- .. H Q~: __ M EM B ~.8.§ : Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Also, I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly today thirty students From Basic Training For Skills Development from the Avalon Community College here in St . John•s, accompanied by their instructor Laurie Tulk. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Opposition House Leader . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to say how delighted we are to see the Premier herE! today. We lAJelne led to believe he tAJas going to be in Toronto last night, speaking at L8 March 30, 1990 Vol XI...I $1,000 a plate dinner or something For the Liberal Party.

I do not know where that came from, but we tAJere misinfonned so, thorE!fOl"e, unfortunately, we did not dE!UE!lop our questions For the Premier . We thought he was not going to be hE!re. My question is to the Minister responsible for Mines and Energy (Dr. Gibbons) and the Mird.ste1" responsible for Newfoundland Hydi"O. Min. Speaker, the ques lion I want to ask first is prefaced by stating the fact that the Hydro rate increase Rrosently being heard by the Public Ut:i.li.t.ies Board will mean an increase of 4.5 per cent to consumers.

Thdt a1ong with the 4.5 per cent already awarded to Newfoundland Li.~Jhl and Power will mean an unbelievable and unacceptable hardship to the people of our ProvinCE!, arnount.·i.ng to at least a 9 pE!In cent increas1:! this year, and probably a 30 per cent to 40 per CE!nt i.ncrE·ase over' the next few years, as we all know. I lAJant to ask the Minis U:!r l:his: Does thE! Minister agr'IO~e w:ith. the Chairman of Newfoundland Hydro who said that the main reason for this Hyd1no 1nate incrE~ase is ln~caUSE!

L.he Provincial Government has withdrawn the $32 m'i.1lion subsidy that it pays to Hyd1no to sub s:idizc:! electricity to rural ar't~as of the Province? And if he does agree tAdth that statoment, tAJI'll:!n is he going to recomrnE:1ncl to h-.i .s Cabtnet colleagues that this increase be rejected or at least reinstate the subsidy? ~.R._,_ ... .?..f .fo.~I5. ,~.R- : The han. the Minister of MinE~s and Energy. DR . GIBBONS : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . No. 14 R8

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do agree wtth the Chairman of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. The main reason for this rate ,~equest is that the subsidy was canceJ.led as a budget decision last year, and tAle a1~e not planntng to make any change in that. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Leader. tt~_:. SIM.M.§: Opposition House Mr. Speaker, this is rather interesting. The Liberal Party when it was in Opposition, particularly our old friend the Minister of SoctaJ. Sel~vices, used lo decry increases in electricity rates to consumers.

They clamoured to the then Government to stop the increases in those days in order to help the people. I want to ask the GoVE!rnrnent through the Minister when is this Government going to practi.ce what it preached when it was in Oppositton, but speciftcally J.et rne ask him this question: Would the Mini.ster give the House some indication of what the Goverr1ment intends to do to alleviate the problem facing low income:~ people, the people on fixed incomes, like se:~nior citizens and others, who wtll be greatly affected by these dramatic increases in the cost of E!lectrici ty? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Energy . DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, matters relating to that latter question would probably be more appropriately put to the Minister responsible for that aspect of Social Servtces rather than to EnE!Ingy. I am concerned about the ener·gy aspE!Cts of the matter. L9 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: The han . l:he:~ Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would be delighted to redirect the question to the Minister of Social Services. I repeat the questton for the Minister of Social Services.

Would the Mi.nister give this House some indication of what Government intends to do to alleviate the problems facing low income people, fixed income people, peopJ.e like senior citizens and other people who will be greatJ.y affected by the high increaSE!S in the cost of elE!ctricity? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Let me say to the hon.

ME!IIlbE!In for Grand Fal.l.s, and u..d.th a :u t.t1E! b:U:. of bragging and pl"aise for· rnyse1f, I do not think he :is qu:i.t:.E! able lo do the job in the Opposition I used to clo whe:~n I u..Jas ove1" UlE:!I"E' asking questions. Mr. Spe:~aker, the ME•1nber rnabb a ve1~y good po:i.nt. As M:irdstE·r· of Social Services, we are very responsible and responsive to the needs of the peop1e of Newfoundland and Labrador i.n the amount of mone:~y t:.hey arE! re:'ceiving for their general income and essential needs, rent, heat and J.ight, food and accornrnodaU .ons.

I \J,Jas very conce1nned about !.:hat \J,Jhen I was in Opposition f or a1most five years, and we presented questtons to the former administration. What: I hav~'! had to do since becornJng Min i s'l:.E!r of Social Se:~l~viu~s is take a look a ·t the who1e picture cenl.el"ed al"ound No . 14- R9

low income people, single parents, u.Jidot.o~Js, and everybody else in the Province. It is something that was put there by the former Administration. They were seventeen years on the Government side of the House and they sti11 did not pay any attention to the:~ low income people of the Province . We not~o.J, in a few short months, are taking on a complete review of the needs of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. In fact, I have asked pE!Ople in rny Department to do a complete review of the whole social assistance problem in the Province, not only senior citizens, not only single parents, but. all people.

The onr;,~ thing we are going to address is the fact that the amount of money these people are receiving today is not sufficient. to provide the essentia1 needs. In due course, in much, much less than seventeen years, we will answer the problems of the people oF Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. SPEAKER: The:~ hon. the Opposition · House Leader . MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, how the wor·ld turns. The question I asked thE! Minister of Social Services was taken directly from Hansard of 1985 and was the exact samE! question asked by the Minister of Social Services. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, do you knot..v t..vhat his tnesponse was whE!n the Minister of that day answered his question? HE! said, 1 boy, oh boy, it is some LlO Mat''Ch 30, 1990 Vol XLI hard to get a straight anst..v er. 1 So I would have to make precisE!ly the same refetnence. In fact, the:~ answer was so ridiculous and terrible I arn going to revert back to my old friend the Ministetn of Mines and Energy and ask hirn this final supplementary, which is really a twofold question, if I might ask. Wou1d th~;!

Minist:E!tn of Energy, the Minister re sponsible for energy - rE:HIH:~mber that ··· Lhe Minister responsible for Newfoundland Hydro, t..vould he consult whoever it ts rE!Sponsi.b1E!, the Minister of So cial Services, the Minister of Con sum er Affait~s, or whomever, but speciFically his Cabinet coJ.leagues, and immediately order a study to dE!terrnine the impact of ti'lE!s ~~ high electricity costs on those pl!:' ople on fixed incorne and deuise ptnoposals of assistanCE!

For· l:.hoSE! people, but rnore specifi cally would he be prepa1nod today to ask his Cabinet colleagues to order an immediate freeze on electric ity rate increases in this Province? MR. EFFOIW: Mr· . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: -·~·- ··-·------ The han. the Mints te1n of 5ocial Seruices. MR . EFFORD : Thank you, Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I feel I haue to answer that question. First of all, I want to tell l:he Metnb (nn f'or Grand Falls that no t only did I offer to show thE:'III hou.J t:o write questions, they arE:~ now takin~J rny questions and asking them directly. So I am very pleased. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, h~::~a r ! MR. EFFORD: No. 14 - RlO

If the Member for Grand Falls had to be listening to the answer I gave, I said that we are very concerned. As to the action we have taken to date, I have asked the people in my Department to take an overall review of what is taking place in the Province as to income and the impact of the cost of living, which includes increased electricity rates, the increase in the cost of food and board and lodging and rental accommodations, board and lodging for single people, a whole review. We have already started to take action. Now if the MHA did not listen or did not understand, then I t.o~Jill repeat. it again.

Thli:~ whole review is taking place. We ar·e not saying it t.o~Jil1 takE! place, it is already taking place on the impact it is going to have on pE!Ople' s liVE!S. espE!CiaJ.ly senior citizens, low income people, single parents and so on. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, one supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Opposition Leader. MR. SIMMS : short House Wr:~ are having an awful job to try to get thr:~ Minister of Mines and Energy to his feet. He is sitting too close to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Ki tchE!

n) I suspect. They must be sharing the same tube of Krazy Glue or something. Can I ask the Minister of Energy to answer the last part of the quli:~stion I asked of the Minister' of Social Services and hii:~ so carefully avoided? Would he be prepared to order an immediate freeze on electricity rate increases in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: U1 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI The hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: The an stAlE:~ I" to that. Mr. Spoak~:.~l". is no. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! .M.K..: __ _Ii9J>..P.J .. R : Ml". Speake!". MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER : Ml".

Speaker. my qu•:!stion is also to th(' Minister of MtnE!S and Enei"9Y tAJho is responsiblr:~ r~or Hydi"O. As thE:~ Minister is at.o~Jdi"E''. l:he Abi tibi - Pt"i.cE~ rni.ll at StE!phenviJ.lE! I"E!CEdVE!S SOITIE! 2~) pE>I" cent of its power from NewfoundJ.and Hydro and will face a $5 million to $6 tni.llton annual increase i.f th.:~ poWE!r' costs go up - if thet"e ar.:~ netAJ increases. In light of the fact that the ~ompany received only a 7 pE!r cent t"etut"n on i. ts capi taJ.

Jast YE!ar. and th:i s was at a time whon Lhe ernployc!•:>s rE!cluced the cost. at thr:' tTd.lJ. by 1.0 per CE:'nt. thereby sEd:.t.in•j a tAJor·ld record for absolute efF:i.d.E!ncy, and even tAJith l:hat reducl:."ion the mill only broke a li.ttle better than even; and in vietAJ o·F the fact that the Hydro rate increases wi]l have::~ a major effect on l:hli:~ rni.".ll, as was stated by the Pre mier on February 26 when he vtsited the mJll, wi11 the M"i.rd.ste1" t.eLI. the House what plans he has to keep the mill viable and operating, especially at this time of difficult newsprint markets? MR.

SPEAKER: The 11-on. the Minister of Enet"qy . DR. GIBBONS: No. 14 R 11

Thank you, Ml" . Speaker. Probably the Minister of Forestry is the one who is most concerned about keeping it viable. I am well aware of the implications of energy cost for the mill in Stephenville; I am aware that they are using about one·-third of all the power being used by industrial customers on the Island of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. I have had discussions with the company and will have future discussions tAdth the company. We will certainly be monitoring the situation and we want them to continue to be a v i_a b 1 e i n d u s try in this Province. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Port au Port.

MR. HODDER : In view of the fact that the operation of the mill will be jeapordized by increased Hydro costs which could lead to downtime and closur·e, and in view of the fact that it has been stated by miLl. officials that the m~ills biggest problem are electrica.l costs, and since the Stephenville mill has kept its prices down and its efficiency up, what is Government doing to ensure. that. N e lAJf o u n d 1 and H y d r o k e e ]:> s i t s c o s t s down, and what is Newfoundland Hydro doing to keep its costs down to its consumers? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Energy . DR.

GIBBONS: That is exactly what Hydro is doing now as it appears before the PUB for this rate hearing. Ther·e is going to be a complete, thorough analysis of all the cost of Hydro !"elated to provision of electricity for the residential customer as well as the industrial Ll2 Mar·ch 30, 1990 Vol XLI customer as review to residents. they go through set:. the r·ates for MR. SPEAKER : thi s the The han . the Member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER : Would thE! MinistE!l n ag1nc•e that increases at the mill should be placed over a longer period of time::~? And t.uhat is t.he GoVE!l"nrnen l: gooing to do about th:i s?

If they arE! powel"less, thE!Y should say s o . A n d how do y o u k e e p i n d u s L r y viable with power rates like those which are proposed? And hotAJ are you able to attract netAJ indus Lry in this Province 'in the Light of these high power rates? DR. GIBBONS : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Mine s and Energy. DR. GIBBONS: Mr. Speaker, we apprE:~ciate the high cost that 1nay bo aFfr:!C l:.tng our industries and we are certaoinly trying t.o be effic ient at Hydro in the production of electricity and to keE!p l:he rates at a rninirnum for all of our customers. MR. POWER : Ml" .

Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Ferryland . MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I have a couplE:' oF questions for thE! Minisb:'ln of Municipal and Provincial Affairs (Mr .Gullage). I was very surprised yesterday to hear Lhe Merrtber for St. John's East ExtC:H'n (Mr. Parsons) ask the MinisLer No. 14 1n2

some questions about how water and sewer a11ocations arE! going to be done in this Province. I would like to ask the Minister, and I arn sure he remembers a couple of years back when we were on the opposite side, I believe the Member for Habour Grace, took a very active role in his Distl~ict and decided to determine where water and sewer money was to be spent in a cer·tain community IAJhen it was allocated by the Government? And the Members of the Opposition of the day, including the now present Minister, was very angry that a Provincial Minister could interfere in municipal jurisdiction. MR.

TOBIN: And that was in his own District . MR. POWER: And it was in his own District . But in this letter to Fl~trock, which I assume is going to go out to other councils in thi.s Province, how does the· Minister explain Provincial interference in mun".i.cipal matters. When you telegraph a council and tell thern if they want water and sewer money thE!Y have to set a rnil rate and they have to have a Budget that is approved by the Department. Does the Minister see this as direct Provincial interference in municipal matters? MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Mr·. Speaker, we have dialogu.:~d all the time IAii th eVE!ry community in the Province throughout the year, Ll3 March 30, 1990 Vol XU constant dialogue concE!rning thc:~ir budgets, concerning their water and sewer· and roads projecl:s, the various phases that they happened to be involved IAr.i th. The Fact of the matter is, Ml". SpE!akeln, wit.h the exception of some twenty communities in the Province most of the debt involved is Provinc:i.al debt. The vast pE!r'centage of the debt incur1ned by communitiE!S i.s Provincial dollars.

So ind~~ecl WE! do have a say in the management of their affairs and they welcome that say, as a rnal:Lel" of fact, they welcomE! l~he dialogue with our officials. The fact t.hat the y c a n c o n s u 1 t 1.1.1 i l: h o u r p c:! o p 1 e whether it be engineers or planners or financial people, accountants and so on, to help them manage their affairs. Because in many, many cases throughout the Province, as the Member knows, we do not hav.:~ TotAJn Clerks in place, we haVE! pal~t·· -t.ilne Town CJ.erks in some casE!S. A lot of the srna11er cornrnuni.ttc:.~s cannot afford to have adequate staFf.

So it is very trnportant: thal~ lAJE! do h.:~lp. I think we should be proud of l:.i·1E:! fact that muntcipal affairs and our regionaJ. ofFices do a fine job in assisting the cornrnurd .t:i.es throughout the Province. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member For Ferryland . MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, just one suppJ.emc:~n · tary to the:~ Mird.st.E!I~. He did not anstJ..Jer my question, whtch was: Does he see Uw act·:i.ons of his Department as having direct interference in municipa1 matters?

Sure every council in the Provtncli:' appr.:~ciates thE! help and assistance fi"Om the Municipal Affai1ns staff, that is lAJhdl they No. llJ. IH3

are there to do, but when you start setting mil rates for a council and you say you will not get your water and sewer money unless you conform to this mil rate, that is a municipal responsibility, which a Provincial Minister really has no obligation or right in which to be involved, and my supplE:~mentary - now, he did not answer my first question, but my supplementary is this: I had a meeting with the Minister some time ago and Water and Sewer money was supposed to be allocated based upon - I cannot remember his exact terminology, but it was based on emergency, critical environmental and health situations.

If Flat Rock and some other Councils of this Province were approved monE!Y based on drastic urgent needs that thE!Y had, are those appr·oval s now to be rescinded if the Councils do not conform to the Minister's directives? MR. SPEAKER: ThE:~ hon. the Ministe!r of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: First of all, to answer your first question. They are free to set any mil rate they wish. We do not determine and dictate a mil rate .

In the case of the ten communities which were identified as being critical and that I approached the Government concerning, they were clearly critical situations that in our u.Jisdom in the Department, the regional office and subsequently as the Minister, I rE!commended to t.he Government that we would do these ten communities, if they would adjust there financial situation, their revenue, so that the ratio of revenue to assessed values would be in line with the average, only the average for the Province, so these communities were not L14 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI approved.

They could only be approved, subject to rnak-.ing the.:! adjustrnr:1nts for which the regional offices were asking to bring them in line with the average for the Province. vr:~ry fair . In LhE! case of Flat Rock, the adjustrnco1nt had to be greater because their ranking, prior to approaching them, their ranking in the original ranking of capital tA.JCH'ks tA.Jas low enough that: thE! nr.il l"ate had to makE! the difference. So Jt seems like a larger rnil rate, but the alternative is not to have the capital works . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Ferryland . MR .

POWER : One final suppl1c'lllE!I1ti;uny. rhE! rationale does not seem to make rnuch sense to me. If the situation was critical and urgent then it may be critical and urgent because you could not rne:\Jse t.axes in the community. Maybe they could not afford to do thE! thin~~s that were necessary. But l:he situation is critica1. and U1"9E!nt .. And if they are now not gotng to be done in some cornrnuniti.es, is that money taken back from thE:1Se communities -· if thE:~Y do not conform to the Minister's directive - is that money going to be redistributed to other communities that badly need it? MR. GULLAGE: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE: I cannot speak for the GovE:~Innrnent and hotA.J the Govr:11"nrnenl: tA.JiJ.l tr(!at any monies that are not spE!nt on No. 14 1n4

this particular allocation. I think it is some $3.5 million. Of the ten cormnuni ties, I think seven have already agreed to the adjustment in their mil rates. Now let us assume for a moment that three of them do not agree to make the adjustments, but Government will have to decide. That money will b1:!! available. Government may decide th.:~n. and I would make a recommendation whether or not we should spend that money elsewhere in the Province. But that is a separate decision apart from the ten communities we are dealing with now. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Burin Placentia West.

MR. TOBIN : I would just like to follow up on the supplementary question to · the Minister. Can the Minister tell us whether or not he views this as for·cing amalgamation upon CE!rtain towns and does he not view it as a form of total blackmail? MR. GULLAGE: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : The answer is, quite frankly, no. And of the ten communities, if I recollect, I think very few of them are even involved in the amalgamation SCE!nario. It has no connection whatsoever. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker . 1.. 15 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Member· Fo1A 13ur·:in PJ.acentia West. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, Flatrock is involved in the amalgamation issue and t:he Forestry Settlement Program, let me say to the Minister. Let. me ask the• MinistE!IA Uwn, is it his pJ.an, Mr'. SpE!ai<E!I", to sEd:. a minimum mil rab~ in t:his PJ"ov:i.ncE! for municipa1it.i.es in OJ"dE!r' to avail of Government funding? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial AFfairs. MR. GUL.LAGE : Mr. Speaker, thal:. is not. l~h.:~ intent of what JAJe aJ"E! clo:i ng IAJ:i t.h this particular group oF communities.

It happens tha-t: the GOVE!rnmE!nt has 1Tii3.dl:!! a cll:!!Cision that we would like to have communities at least up to the av.:~rage. It is very difficult to qualify for capital wo1nks iF you do not have a r'E!asonab1E! rn:i1. l"ate in place, in all fairness, bE!caus1:! thE! financia1 si tuat:i.on of the community bears on capital works and whE!ther or not thE!Y get approved.

All we are saying to the cornmunity, and I think Hds rnay be a c1ear rnessage this y1:'al", is that it is vei"Y impoJ"tan-t: t.hat you adjust your finances to at least be reasonable about your tax rate s , o the rtA.r.i s e i t -:i. s q o i n g l~ o be very difficult to quaJ.ify fol" capital works. We have had cornplai nts from nei~J hbou l":i n~~ communities asking tf it is ·Fa'ir to have capitaJ. works going tnto a community that is not char·gin'.:J a rE!asonab1e rnil l"ate when t.hey are. I have those cornpl.aints coming from communities right now.

So is it fair to ask a community to charge a reasonabl.e No. 14- 1ns

mil rate giving the fact that this is mostly provincial money that is going into those communities, mostly it is our debt , is it fai1n to ask thE!m to be responsible on their side? I think it is. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Member Placentia West. MR. TOBIN : for BUlnin Mr. Speaker, I tAJould like remind the Minister that he Minister of Municipal Affairs not a city councillor in John's. I have a new question for Minister of Works, Services Transportation. Let me ask Minister - MS DUFF: "Is_ .. _t'i-1 at (inaudible) st. John • s. MR.

TOBIN : to is and St. the and the No. nothing whatsoever Minister of Municipal should be responsible municipalities. but the Affairs for all AN. HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). - r.1.!L.___I9_B. .. l~ : You know nothing about Newfoundland and care less about thE! r e s t of N e wf o u n d land . My question is to the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. Yesterday the Minister announced that Government was finally going to act on the agreement that lJJas signed betlJJeen both governments on the construction of tht:' road to Petit Forte and the other operations down there.

My question to the Minister - very briefly - is it Government's intention to act on the full agreement, by that. I mean the ferry service between Petit U6 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI Forte and Southeast Bight as well? MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation . MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. I woul.d like to correct the Mt::nnbt:'r because it Js not, 'finally going to act'. The position we took on the Pettt Forte road is that we wanted to investigate the ramifications of this. We have seen the prE!Vious Government get involved in bartering away our railway for · a transportation sysl:.ern.

TheinE! tJJas never any question in this Gove1nnment • s rn:ind about !::he PE!tit Forte road. The Petit Fo1~ t.~C! road was always there. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. GILBERT : If the Member had been read and look at what we about the Petit Forte called a contract for -- MR . TOBIN : able to have said road, we There were not enough pic!Ople dotJJn there to build a road . MR. GILBERT : Mr. Speaker, I would like to haVE! protection, please . MR. SPEAKER : Order. please! MR.

GILBERT: We called a contract last year for seven ki.lornetE!rS of the Potit FortE! road at $2.2 rn:i.11:ion, tJJhi ch is ongoing, and wil.l bt~ continuing this year. If ·the MernbE!r had rE!ad the statement I made in this House in November on the calling of contracts on the ERDA agreement, he wouJ.d have sE•en in that. ther·E:~ No. 14- 1n6

was a tE!n kiJ.orneters continuation for the PE!ti t Forte road th'i s year. So there was no question in otH' minds about 1 finally 1 the Pet.i t Forte road. The Petit Forte road was not the question. Right notJJ, Mr. Speaker, as I said yesterday, there is no problem with the road to Petit Forte. The agreement the previous Government signed lAJas the one I had serious concerns about, in that this Province had to take over the operation of a ferry service between Petit Forte and South East Bight. That is going to be a subject of some discussion with the FederaJ.

Minister when I rriE!et him, but as it stands right notJJ, there is no problem. We have accepl:E!d the intE!nt of the agreement. The only thing is, we are going to be asking the Federal Government to look very closely at the whole intraprovince ferry system in this Province because, again, why should Newfoundland have to bartE!r off everything we have in order to get a transportation systE!m? We do not think this is the way it is going. We intend to talk to t~he Federal Government further about the operation of this ferry service and the total ferry service in the Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleaSE!!

I point out to hon. Min:lstE!rS again, just as I do to people as king questions, to gE!t to the answer as quickly as possible. It seems to rne the Minister got to the essence of the answer in the last minute or so. The han. the Member for Menihek . MR. A. SNOW : Mr. Speaker, my question was to be l..17 March 30, 1990 VoJ. XLI to the MinistE!r of Justice, but in his absence I lAiill direct rny question to the Minister of Environrnt::~nt and Lands, tn light oF thE! fact that it :is possibJ.y an environmental question and has an impact on his particular DepaJntrn~':!nt.

As he is well atJJare and l:.hoi.s HousE! is aware, the Innu of Labrador have reCE!ntly foiled l:.wo actions in the FedE!J"al Coul"t of Canade1. One was to stop low level flying on the grounds that it interferes tAJith thetr land, and in th~;! second action the lnnu are asktng the court to quash the decision of the Minister of Defense to continue "low level flying because of insufficient environmental asseSSITIE!I1tS. My question to the Minister is: do~;:~s he have any · council representing thl:~ interes l:s or~ the people of this PJ"ovincE· in these cases? If not, why not? PREMIER WELLS : Mr . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Pr~;:~rnier . Order, pJ.ease! PREMIER WELLS: Mr. Speaker. this particular matter is a rnattE•r in t"E•spect oF which the MinisteJ" of Justice and rnyseJ.f have been dea11ng for· son1e rna nth s n otJJ . Certain nat. i v "=' (j I" o ups in Labrador have taken an application to the Federal Court to obtain an injunct:i.on to restrain the flying operations being conduct.E!d out of Goose Bay. The Province, as such, has no particular standing or no reason l:o be heard before Ute Court because we are not involved in any manner in the operations of the No. 14. R17

the base or in the low level flying operations. If the people concerned are entitled to an injunction, it will be on the basis of interference with the people concerned. Now whether the Province appears or does not appear is of no relevancE! to that issue. It is not related to th.::~ issUE! at all. If the people are entitled to an injunction, presumably the Court will give it. If they arlO! not entitlcO!d to an injunction, presumably the Court wi.ll so rlJle.

So the Province cannot go and say. well we are concerned about the economic impact on Goose Bay, so not withstanding the rights of these people, because of the economic impact on Goose Bay. the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador does not want you to do it. Courts do not operate on that basis. Courts operate on the basis of law and what is right in law. And if the people have a proper foundation for obtaining an injunction to restrain it, then no doubt the Court will make such an or·der. And if ·they do not, it does not matter what the Province's concern is about the economy.

The Court could not. in my judgement, properly take that into account anyway. So we have decided it would not be proper for us to have council prE!SE!nt at thE! hearing. MR. A. SNOW : Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek. MR. A. SNOW: Not. being of a legal mind such as the Premier, I will not discuss the legalities of it.

I brought. in the question in light of the fact that the businesses and the people who rE!Side in Happy ValJ.ey L18 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI - Goose Bay have a direct concern in this; they are afraid this particular action could decimate thE! local economy of Happy ValJ.ey Goose Bay, and they fee1 the interests of Happy VallE!Y .....

Goose Bay should not just be entrusted into the hands of the DE:!partrnE!n t of National Defence and I direct my question - and that a court order stopping low-level flying, even on a ·t:E:!mporaJny basis. would naturally deci1nate t:hE! local economy in Happy Val ley - Goose Bay and virtually bankrupt many local businesses, throw hundreds of people out of work. and that~ is a concern. or should be a concern of this Government. While the low ---leuel flyinq FHH' se may not be an J s ~;ue, the bankruptcy of many l.ocal bus:i .nesSE!S -- MR. SPEAKER: Order, ph~ase!

I have been waiting for the q u e s t i o n from the h o n . ME' ITI be I" • a n d I cannot seem to see it yc::!t. I want to remind han. Members, in supplementary questions no

preamble is pe1nrnitted, no COII"IITIE'nt on the answer. that the hon. Member should proceed to get to his question. Euen though the Chair has beE!n lenic:•nt, I cannot. allow a Mernber to carry on rnaking a spE!ech. So woul.d the hon . Member please get to the question. MR. A. SNOW: Would thE• Minister ag1"ee, in view of the fact of whi3.t IAI<'lS st.atE!d by the Premier and what I stated , that with court action by the Innu, if they we1ne t:o tArin it could have a deuastati.ng ef fect on t.l-w local economy in Happy Valley Goose Bay? MR. SPEAKER: No . 14 1ns

The hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, if there were such a court order, it could have, in my judgement, a significant economic impact on Happy Val1ey -­ Goose Bay, and the people of Happy Va1ley - Goose Bay, thE! community council, the people concerned or thE! business groups which are concerned, have every right, if they want to, to apply to the court for standing in order to present their case. And if the court feels tt is proper fotn the court to take it into account, they tJJill do so. But I r.::~mind all han.

Members, in case they have forgotten, the native people who live in this Province are citizens of this Province, as well. Now, the Government of this Province cannot say, 1 We want you to ignore the rights and interests of the native groups. We want you to protect only the interests of the business groups in Happy Valley - Goose Bay. 1 The courts are there, and if the law is being broken, the courts must enforce the law.

If the law is wrong, this Legislature has the powetn to c hang e the law , a n d if thE! 1 atJJ i s wrong, this Government has the responsibility to bring legislation before the House and ask it to change the law. But, as the law now stands, the native people who live in this Province have a right to make an application before the court to seek a court order to protect their interests in accord with the law, and this Government wil1 not step in to impede or interfere with that right.

We wi11 entrust to the courts the responsibility to enforce the law as it now stands, and if the business people of Goose Bay - and I understand Ll9 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI their concern, I share and sympathize with their concern, but I also undr:~rstand thE! concern of the native groups, if the business groups of Happy Valley - Goose Bay feel they are not being propetnly dealt with in accord with the law, then they have a perfect: right to apply for standing before the Federal Court, in this case, and say, 1 Look. Mr.

JudgE!. we hdVE! a concern here and we ask you to take our concerns into account when you are making that decision. 1 Now, that :i.s thE! proper way for courts to function, and it l.IJould be most impropE!ln for a Government, in respect of this group of citizens, to interfere and make an intetnvent.ion before a court, and say to the coutnt, 1 WE! tJJant you to favour this gtnoup of citizens over that group of citizens. All the GOV(~rnrnent can and should do is say to the Court, We want you to apply the law. And that is all we will ever do. MR. SPEAKER: Question Period has expired.

Before moving on to l:hl''! other items I would 1 ike to we 1. carne to the gallery today a delegation from the Council of Grand Falls accompanied by their Mayor, Paul Hennessey, their Deputy Mayor, Terry Goodyear, Councillors Sterling Thomas and Glenda Tulk, along 1.1Ji th the fawn Manager, Mr. Mike Pinsent. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Commitees MR. WALSH: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Mount-Scio. No. 14· R19

MR. WALSH : Mr. Speaker, the Standing Cornmi ttee on Rules and P1nocedures of this House have been meeting for the past number of months and are now in a position to send the report we have prepared back to our respective caucuses. Under· the mandate given to the Committee by the House, we were to report with a final report before the end of March. We have had an opportunity to 'visit a number of Legislatures across Canada, in particular those which have had changes made in the last six to twelve months. With that in mind. Mr.

Speaker, and the fact that most of our work has been completed and now we would like to send that rE!port back to the respective caucuses, on behalf of the Committee I request this morning an extention in the CornrnittE!eS mandate to the end of April . MR. SPEAKER : If the han. thE:1 Opposition House Leader tJJould permit, I think it was this timE! J.ast week, back about a week ago, that han. Members of the House gave their report on the broadcasting of the House and the Chair was assigned with establishing the guidelines.

I can advise the House now that these guidelines have been established, the guidelines for broadcasting. I am telling han. Members that I am waiting for a lit:tlE! feedback From a couple of other people. but. as far as I know, everything is just about finali.zed and maybe later in the day we will make the official statement. I think the understanding was that when this was done. broadcasting would start on Monday. Thank you. The hon. the Opposition House Leader. L20 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure of thE! procedure to tE!l1 you the truth. but to follow·-UP on t:hE:~ Jnc:q:>oJnt of thE:1 the• Chairman of the Comrn:i t t:E·e on Standing Orders. Rulr0s and Procedures. or whatE!VE!r. hE! has made a request For an extension to the time allocated for that Committee to present its final report, which was du e on the 31st of March. As a Member of the Committee, along with my colleague, the Mr:Hnber' for Point au Port, we are in agreement with the request. Perhaps it is simply a matter of asking if there is an agreement for extension, say, to April 30, onE! month.

We might nE!E•cl that. length of time. IF it is si1nply a matter of asking for agreement, we agree. MR. SPEAKER: For the point of clarificat ion, we are probab1y on a point : of OJ"der here. The han. the GovernrnE!nt House Leader. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The request is that we aJlow an extension. I think the Committee has been doing some good WOI' 'k. I have not seen what: they have done but my information is that they have made tremendous progl''ess dncl they are going to have a Report which would suggest significant changes to make our procedures more efficir::~nt.

I would suggest that WE• simply ~;ay to the Committee that we will extend their life but that the Report be::' donE! as qu:i.ckly as possible without putting another time limit that LhE!Y may haVE! to No . 14 1~20

extend. If the Comrn:i ttee wants a time limit, we are quite in accordance with that, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: This is an agreernr:~nt betweE!n two hon. Members, I cannot say it is disagreement. The point of information is set. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given PREMIER WELLS : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Thb hon. the Premier . PREMIER WELLS: Ml". Speaker, I arn going to ask leave of the House, this ·:h not n~ally in answer to a question -· but questions have been raised. I had intended to have a statement prepared for thls morning and I did not have the time to do it but it may be of interest.

I would ask the leave of the han. Members of the HouSE! to indicate whc-.:tt. Government intends to do with respE!Ct to certain questions that have been raised primarily outside, but somE:! inside this House as u..Jel1, with respect to l~he Labrador subsidy changes in the Budget. Rather than make an announcement outside the House I would sooner tell the House first. So if I have leave for just a couple of minutes I would like to tell the House. MR. SPEAKER: The request by l~he Premier is we revert back to Statements Ministers. l~hat by The han . Leader. the Opposition HOUSE! L21 March 30, 1.990 Vol XLI MR.

SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, we have no problem with that. We would be prepared to listen to what he has to say. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr'E!Inier. PREMIER WELLS: ,,,, __ .,.,,,, __ ,,,,,, _____ ,. ___________ ,,,,,,,, __ Mr. Speaker, the Government has received some strong representations by groups in Labrador outside the House with respect to the Budgetary decisions the Government has taken on the question of Labrador travel subsidies, and a number of questions have also been raised in this House.

As of th:i.s moment, my vir::•w of it and the view of l:he GovE::nHnent is that the decisions were the COI"I"ect decisions. HoWE!Ver, tAll'! do not cla:i.rn to bE! thE• dE::pos:i.tcH'.Y of all knowledgE:' and u..Jisclom, so thE! GovernmE:~nt has agi"E::ed to establ:i.sh a Committee cons:ist:inq of t:h1:! President of lhE!

Counc:U . , thE• Minister of Finance, the Minjs'l:er of Works, Serv:i.ces and Transportation, the Minister of EnvironmE:~nt and Lands and t.he Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affa:i.rs, c\nd have as ked them to review all aspE!Cts of it, take into account the representations that have been rnadE:! by pE!ople re•specting the matter. Take into account, as well, Ml". Speaker', the speci.a1 allowances and the Northern allowance and the tax deductibility and a1l of those factors. If the dE!C'.is:i.on H1f!

Governrnent has taken is sound, it will be continued, but we have establisl·wd a Commitl:l:!e to at least provide an opportunity for the people who have been concerned to make whatever representations they wish. So that~ Corr11nittee tAJ·i 11 be asked to take thE! action No. 14 R21

immediately. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Menihek. MR. A. SNOW: I am pleased to see that the Government is reacting to the pressure from the people of Labrador. The MembE!rS of this House, on both sides, I arn sure have raised this issue concerning the removal of the subsidy programs, the two programs, that had been in place for a number of years.

It. is something that is very necessary to the people of Labrador and I want to ensure that both programs will be reviewed, the Labrador Air Subsidy Program and also the Sport Pt~ograrn undr:1r the Department of -Culture, Recreation and Youth.

I also would like to know when this would b~ reviewed and when can the people of Labrador expect to see a firm response to their concerns in the fact that we have already seen cancellations of sporting E!Vents t.~dthin Labrador due to the block funding method of financing for the sports that occur over this school year, if you will, so it is very urgent that it be de a 1 t tAli t h immediately. The people of Labrador are very concerned. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER: The J.ast item I calJ.ed, I believe, pr·iot~ to giving the Pt~emier leave to go back to Statements by Ministers, was .Answers to Questions for which Notice has been given. L22 Mar·ch 30, 1990 VoJ. XLI Petitions MR. SPEAKER: The han. thE! ME!ITtbE!r for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I have a petition I would lik, ;· to present to the han. House signed by in excess of 200 peop1e fi"UJII my District, from the Marystown Jean de Baie area. It was delivered to my offJ.ce yestE!r'day.

The prayer of the petition, and the Minister of Forestry wi].] be familiar· with this. by thE! tAlay: we the undeJ~signed hE!rE!by pE!ti L.-i on the Departnwn ·t of Fores tr·y to undertake the upgrading of UH~ Garnish Pond for,;:!st access road in order to faciJ.itate reasonable access to the Forest area Fol" the harvest of firewood and rn:i] l logs, both domestic and cornrnercial . Mr. _Speaker. the Mird.ster of Forestry. as I understand it, had already met with the Deputy Mayor and another councillor from Marystown to discuss this road, back some months ago .

I arn sur ·e the Mi.n:i ster of For·es try knows IAJhaL I am talking about. fhe situation, Mr. Sp,;:!akE!r', is that there is a road consisting of, I am not sure of the distt.HlCI'?. but it is probabJ.y a couple of rnil1:'!s, that goes in beh·tnd Marystown into an area that .-is used by people who harvest the wood for Firewood and certainJ.y for· the mill log operations l:.ha t are in the Marystown area.

As most people know with the unemployment rate that nou.J exJ.sts on the Burin Peninsula, probab1y one of the worst times it has been in recE!nt mernory, there are a lot of people who reverted back to cutting their own Firewood. fhere No. 14 - r~22

- are also a number of people in the area who cut the firewood and sell it to try and make ends meet. They have beE!n hampered in their resolve, Mr. Speaker, to hal~vest. the wood to make a living, through accessing this forest. The loggers in the arE!a are also having difficulty getting to it. As a matter of fact I believe at this point in time the road is basically impassable. I know that the Minister of Forestry in his meeting - if I could get the attention of the Minister of Forestry, Mr .

Speaker - I know that in these meetings with the deJ.E!gation hE! expressed his desire to try and help and to do whatever he could and hE! assured them that in this year 1s Budget he would find the necessary funds to upgrade the road to the extent that it wouJ.d be possible for th101 people harvesting that area. As I said it is impol~tant for several reasons to the people and to the areas that use it, but now where it has become impassable it is tremendously difficult for people to operate in that area. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture has had the opportunity yet to deal with this in tel"ms of being able to advise me today as to ho!JJ much money has bE!en available. But I am su1~e the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, being an honourable gentleman as he is, will honour the commitment that he made to have that road upgraded. I sincerely hope he is in a position today, when hE! gets up to address this petition, to inform me how much monE!Y has bE!E·n allocated in the Budget, when tenders can be caJ.led and whE!n pE!ople can again be able to harvest the wood in that arE! a.

L23 March 30, 1990 VoJ. XLI The Minister and I, have discussed this as welJ. and hE! was ext.l"t::'mE<l.y genuine in his concerns For the area and this gives me eVE!I''Y indication that we will be able to honour the peti U.on of thE!Se 209 people. I kno!J..J I sp1::!ak For all thE! people from th!O' various toLL.ms and the surrounding ar·ea IJJhose names are not on Hw petition, of the support they lend to the people who signed the petition, basically people whoSE! Fami.Lies harvest LL.Jood in the arE!a. They would like to see the petition honoured.

I would now Pl"esen t this petition to the Page and ask him to deliver it to the appropriate Department and I sincerely hope thE! Minis·I:.E•r, the very genuine, honest, sincere Minister, who has made a cornrnitmE!nt, and I am sure that he will be keeping that commitment. As a matter of Fact, I arn sure that because of the type of individual he 'is, he will probably be announcing immediately how rnuch money has been allocated Fo1~ that project. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Minister oF FOl"estl"Y . MR. FLIGHT: Tht::' plea of the ME!rnb~:>r: I pl~obab1y would do exactly what he is suggesting, announce it today.

I want to say that I recall the m~~eting to wh'.i.ch tht:' hon. Mernbel~ refers. It. was very interest'.i.ng meeting the people of his constituency who were very concerned pE•oplE! and had, in t:h~:d.l" opinion or .in my opinion For tha t matter, a very sincel~t::' conu~n1. I can only tell the Member at Ulis point in tilnE! that a1.l access roads and the funding ther10!of is under consideration r·ight now, but I must draw this to his attention, because I can understand if his c o n s t i t u e n t s s u g g e_ s t e d l: o h i rn l: h a t No. 14. R23

I might have made a firm commitment as such. I did not, but lAJhat I did do, is, col'nrni tted myself to look at thEd.r proposal, to make sure that I did everything in my power to find the funds to do the road, but I did not make a commitment that we would, indE!ed, do the road. The Member knows that, but I did commit myself to it because the concerns were very real and the Member will also know, having served in Government himself, that priority fo1n access roads is by and large to access pulp wood operations or logging operations.

As in every other Department and for every other purpose, we find ourselves under ever increasing financial restraints and I have a little less money this year to apply to access roads than I had last year or probably the Minister had the year before. But I can assure the hon. Member that the application from his constituents for some upgrading on that particular road that lets them access their supply of firewood, will get every consideration, and I would hope that maybe we will be able to find some way to upgrade the road . When?

I can only tell the Member that at this point. in t1me we are finalizing our woods access roads for this year, and very shortly, I will know where we are. AN HON. MEMBER: Give us a date . MR. FLIGHT: Well, I do not intend to let Member· pin me down like that the Mr. SpE!aker, but however, in course the Member will Thank you. MR. SPEAKER : due know . The han. the Member for Kilbride . MR. R. AYLWARD: L24 . March 30, 1990 Vol XLI Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . It gives me great pleasure to rise in this House today to support my colleague, thE!

Mernbe1n fo1n Bud .n -·· Placentia in this petition from the residents of his District. Mr, Speaker, I Wi:'\S 1-:i.stE!ning to rny colleague very intently there as he presented, and very ably presentE!d, the conct?.r'ns of residents of his District about this forest aCCt:!SS r·oad which is very necessa1ny fo1n thE• peop1E! who live in that area, Mr. Speaker. There are a Jot of people over the past ten years who have switchtO!d from oil and elec td .c:i .t.y to u.Jood heated homes, Mr. Speaker , If anybody knows the BuJ~:i .n PE!i'dnsuJ.a, Mr.

Speaker, we knou.J th1:•re is not a great deal of u.Jood in a ]ot. of areas in the Burin Pt:;!ninsula . And the areas that. do have forest access roads, Mr . Sp~~aker, are very important to a11 thE! peopJ.e who need this fuel for their homr::~s . One of the rnain reasons they arE! going to need it moreso in the future is thE! fact thaL t.he Government of the day has taken away subsidies from the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, Mr. Speaker.

They hav~~ increased thE! eJ.ectrical rqtes or Jnt.E!nd t.o increase the electrical rates by putting 1. 5 pE•r cent payr·o11 tax on both Newfoundland Hydro and Neu.Jfoundland Light and POIAJE!ln, Ml". Speaker. And the electrical rates in this Province are going to skyrocket by some 30 pE!r CE!nt in the next three years, I understand, and probably 1nore than that before thE! hon. ME!rnbE!lns c:tl"E• finished incrr::~asing thE! eh'cLJnical rates. That makes it extremely important that these forest access roads, especially for peopJ.e who are using these to access fuel For their fires, be upgl"aded, Mr.

Speaker, and kept in very good No. 14 · r~ 2 't-

shape because there is going to be a desperate need in the next three or four years for every bit of wood that a person can possibly get their hands on to burn in their fires, Mr. Speaker, because they will not be able to use electricity any more to heat their homes because the rates are going to skyrocket so much that we wiJ.l not be ablE! to afford to turn on our electric heaters any more, Mr. Speaker. But I did spend some time in the Department of Forestry, Mr. Speaker, and I do realize the problem that the Minister has with funding For access roads. It. l~o.Jas all..~.Jays a problem for thE!

Minister of Forestry ·to convince the rest of his colleagues that this is a VE!ry important asp,~ct oF the forest industry, Mr. Speaker, because it is no good if we have all kinds of woods that people cannot access. And _the trees 1..1.rill just stand there until they get so old they 1..1.Jill fall down and they will be no use to anyone, Mr. Speaker, and they would actually be a fire hazard if we do not go in and harvest these woods. Mr. Speaker, I know the predicament that the han. MinistE!r is in. But I do think the people who did meet with him at least understood there is a commitment from him to do this road.

Now I guess people h~~ar what they IJJant to hear and I find it very hard to believe that the Minister would give such a strong comrrritment that he would actually get the road done at a CE!rtain datE!. But knowing that Minister, Mr. SpE!aker, it is possiblE! because he certainly does try very hard to accommodate people when they comE! to see him. MR. FLIGHT : L25 Mar·ch 30, 1.990 Vol XLI Right on! MR. R.

AYLWARD: And anyone who does haVE! probJ.ems in this Province in the forest industry or in the agricultural industry, I would ~--~~COITIITI~:!nd that they go and talk to th~~ Mintstr::•l" because he does giv~~ comrnit:rnc:!nts sometimes that probably he wouJ.d wish he had not giVE!n. But. he does try to accommodate and I will give him credit for that. Ml". Speaker. But it is important fo1" his sakE! that the rest, of l:he Minist:c~l"S in the Cabinet realize that the forest access roads al"e E!Xtrc,~mE!ly important to his Department and that funding fol" l:hat all..I.Jays SI,!UITIS to be cut back.

When I Wc1S Minister we managed to keep the funding at an (!VE!rl ratE!. But I notice the Cabinet of the day does not support their Minister, Mr. Speaker, t.hey k1~ep cutting back on forest access roads and cutting back on forest access roads and it is not the Minister 1 s Fault:. it:. :i.s the rest of the vu1tures in the Government, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I remind the hon. genl:1eman his tim~~ is up. MR. R. AYLWARD : Oh, that is too bad, Mr. Speak~~r . MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member For forngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I have a petition, Mr.

Speaker, . signed by eighty-eight residents of the Community of Rigolet. No. llJ. 1~2 1:)

Mr. Speaker, if any han. gentleman wants to J.ook at the petttion I presented yesterday he will find that every name there is legitimate. On this one here, every name is legitimate. And, Mr . Speaker, yesterday I noticed the Minister of Health said that I solicit the names on a petition. Mr. Speaker, I will not disagree . Let me say, Mr. Speaker, I am proud I did solid.t pE!tiU.ons along the Labrador Coast. In fact, Mr. SpE!aker, I have many more . Only just yesterday there was a request again for peU .tions on the cuts and subsidies for sports and cuJ.ture groups. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. WARREN: Mr .

Speaker, I must say that I a111 some glad that thE! Premier - I am oFf the petition a little bit but I am some glad that the Premier made a statement earlier. You know, Mr . Speaker, the PrE!mier read my letter. The Premier r1~ad the letter that I sent to him yesterday, Mr . Speaker, and he knew he had to get a Committee together as fast as he could. MR. MURPHY : You wrote the letter, did you? MR. WARREN: Yes, that is right, Mr. Sp1:!aker. I would ask my hon. colleague From St. John 1 s South (Mr. Murphy) would he kindly just be quiet. Mr .

Speaker the prayer of the petition i<· ,) naturally, as it was yesterday, asking for proper health carE! and an enquiry into health care along the Labrador coast and in Labrador generally. L26 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI Mr. Speaker, that petition is signed by etghty-eight restdents in the community of Rigolet and I say to the Minister of health instead of getting up and being too political why does hE! not go back over his records of a patient, onJ.y about a month and a half ago, it \Alas in lhgolr::!t iHld the Grenfell RegionaJ. Health Services .. _ MR. MURPHY : A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: ThE! han. the Mernber for St. John 1 s South. MR. MURPHY : Mr. Speaker, yesterday the han. the Member for Torngat Mountains presented a lE! LtE!l~ to t:h1':! Prerntc:!r, I think Hansard wi11 show that tAlE:' do not have it yet, sl: .ating that the Town Council of Happy Valley - Goose Bay had written a letter for him to convey to the Premier. This morntng he jus l~ stabc-d l:hat he Wl~ote the letter. So I t.h:i.nk the hon. MernbE!r' is l"(~aLly misleading the House, Mr~ Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : There is no point of order . The hon. the Mernber for Torngat Mountains . MR.

WARREN: I am sure I lAJould not rrl'islead the House. FurthE!rrnore I should tab]E! the lel:ter I wrol~e l~o the Pr·enri.er yesterday. ThE! han. genl:J.ernan can have it . It is undE!l" my signature, Mt~. Speaker. Yester'day I said I met lAlith the town council. L'"t rne go back to my petition. I am glad in one way that l.:hE! Minister of Health is noL the1~e because it may give the Mernber For Eagle River (Mr . DumaresqUt') a No . 14 R26

: J. chance to respond to the petition. I tAJould think that the Member for Eagle River should respond to this petition because he is concerned about health care along the Labrador Coast. I say to my colleagues opposite give the hon. Gentleman the opportunity to respond to a petition which is so vital to hirn as well as it 'is to me. I support this petition and I .. ask that it be related to the Department to which it refers. MR. SPEAKER : The hon . the Member for Eagle River. .l':t~ ... ~ . --P u IV!M~-~.9 .t,J._s : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I certainly take pleasure in supporting the petition from the ~10n.

Member. Labrador, and thE! North Coast of Labt~adot~ certainly has some glaring statistics when it comes to health care and the state of well-being in the communities. There is unusually high statistics when it com.:~s to suicide and other very, very drastic measurE!S that people have to take because they certainly have conditions to live undE!r and measures to deal tJJith that a lot of people in this House do not realize. We have to, at all times, put ourselves beyond po1itics and be able to look towards the well-being of the individuals and because ht~ is out of sight he should never be out off tnind.

I do not think though, in all fairness, that. this Government has demonstrated anything but a contribution to the state of the people in all parts of this Province including the people of Labrador. I am sure we wi11 see, as a resuJ.t of the rE!organization of the Grenfell Regional Health L27 March 30, 1.990 Vol XLI Services, that there will. be a real dedication to health care along the North Coast of Labrador as WE!lJ. as in thE! South Coast and the Great Northern Peninsula.

I am sure, as the M".i.nis t.:~r announced today, there are real contributions being made to the improvement of health care throughout this Province. I am sure over th~~ nE!Xt nurnbE•t~ of months the peopl.e in Rigolet, thE:~ people in Torngat Mountains will also receive the benEd~il: of thE!Se measures. I am sure ~11 han.

Members, although we need to continually raise this and make them more aware of what is happening to our native people and the people along the Coast of Labrador, I am surE! thet~E! is total concurrenc'''! in this House to t.h1:> ded:i .cation and thE• impt~overnE!nt. of health care in Labrador. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to have a few words to say on this petition so ably presented by rny co11ec1guE•, the Member for Torngat Mounl:a·ins, and supported by thE! ME!tTtb.:'r fo1A EagJ.e River (Mr. Dumaresque).

I have t o say right at the outsE!t, Mt~. Speaker, that thE!t"l'! :is sorneth·inq about that hon. ME!rrtber that impresses me. The hon. MernbE!r for Eagle Riuer seerns to bE:! a ME:!rrtbE!t" who has the genuine intet~ests of his constituents at heart. But the other impressive thing, Mr. Speaker, unlike a lot of other Members who occupy the back benches in particular, he is not afraid to stand up and speak out, even though it might be a No. 14 R27

criticism of the Government, or an attack on the Government or whatever. I suspect he did the same thing with respect to the elimination of the Travel Subsidy Programs by the Government. I suspect he had a word with the Prr:~miE•r. In fact, I arn cet~tain of it. Rather than the inf1uence of the Minister who represents Labrador' in the Cabine?.t, I say it was more the influence of the Member for Eag1e River, a1ong tAiith the influence of the Members for Menihek and Torngat Mountains, which brought about this sudden change in the Government's heart today. Mr.

Speaker, I was de1ighted to see Members support this petition. I would draw to the attention of the Government. of course, the fact that the petition, as alluded to by my colleague, says - and I want to read just this par-agraph: "The people of -· in this . case it is Rigolet · ·- are concerned tAJith the Health care presently available through Grenfell Regional Health Services. Concerns have been expressed that patients are not receiving proper Health care, wherefore your petitioners humbly pray that the hon. House be pleased to take immediate steps to support a pubJ.ic inquiry into Health in Labrador.

And the Member for Eagle Rivet~, who sits on the Government's side, has now indicated in support of this petition that he is calling on the Government as well for a public inquiry into the Health care situation on the coast of Labrador, and we are delighted l:o have support from the Government side of the House. Now, I also Member for the minute want to commend the Torngat Moun l::a:i.ns. in or whatever it is I L28 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI have leFt. on the initiatiV E! he has taken.

There was som e indication that the Member had done something wrong hE!re, that he had written to communit .icO!s dnd asked them to petition and that sort of thing. What the Member did in thE! letter hE! WI''OtE!, accompanying the:' petit.ion, ·is say this is a major issue and has been for twenty --odd years, since he has beE!I1 involVE!d with the:- pe·ople of Labrador. There have been improvements, but there are more that could be · made.

And he:'! said: 'Enclosed is the wording of a petition I would be honoured to present to the House of Assembly.' He simply askeO!d the people, if !::hey wet~E! pt"E!pared to petition, to send it to hirn and he:> would be happy to present it on their behalf. In the case of Rig ole t. l\1r. Speaker, they responded overwhelmingly lAiith eighty- --e:dqht people, about 70 per CE!nt. of the voters in the town oF RigolE! t.

I commend the Member for his initiative, I cornrnend the r"kHnber for Eagle River for supporU.ng l::hE! petition, and, therefore, call on the Government to rE!Spond to the petition in a positive way tn light of that support frorn their own caucus For a public inquiry into thE! HeaJ.th care neods on the coast of Labrador. MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the Me rn b e r f o r S t . J o h n ' s E a s t. E x t e t' n , thE:~ Chair just might make a comment. This is the• appropria lE ! place to do it, and it is pick ing up on a point rnade by the hon .

Opposition House Leader when he said that the Government Member supported the pE!'t.ttion. I believe it is a clear understanding of the House, and I bE!lieve the hon. Opposition House leader would No. 14- R28

agtee, that when anybody is speaking to a petition they ought to be supporting it, although there have been times when probably in the House it has been a little bit dicey when thE!Y have. But the clear understanding is that a person rising to speak to a petition ought to support the petition. The hon. the Member for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMS: On a point of order .

Since Your Honour has raised this interesting question, I have aliAJays had doubts in my rrdnd whether or not that is a fact, because our rules, as I recall, say that to speak to a petition you must contain yourself to the number of petitioners and the prayer of thE! petition. I think it has been, quite frankly, probably a fallacy that if you spl':!ak to a petition . you necessarily speak in support of it. I am not quite certain. Maybe Your Honour may want to research it a little and maybe give us a better understanding of where it is.

I think that is something that has happened perhaps in precedent, or somebody flew it out and said you have to speak to a petition. But I think you will find in your research, Your Honour. a ruling by Mr. Speaker Russell during his days in the Chair where he rulE!d, in fact, to a point of order, I believe from the former Member for LaPoile, Mr. Neary, who made the argument that you had to speak in favour of it. Ml". RUSSE!ll, I think, ruled that you did not have to speak in favour, but you must 1_29 Mai"Ch 30, 1.990 Vol XLI speak to the petition.

It might be interesting to haVE! a look at it. .MB...~ ... _.$J~~f! . .K .. r~.R: The hon. the ME!ITibE!I" for St. John 1 s East Extern. MR. PARSONS: Thank you very much, Mr.Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: Just to clarify the point. The Chair wanted to raise it and will, in due timE:!, study H:. and I"E!port ·to the House. The hon. the Me•mber fol" St. John 1 s East Ext:E.~rn. MR. PARSONS: Thank you again, Mr. Speaker . Today I am pres1:!nt.ing a petition, and why I arn presenting it t.oclay is because the BiJ.l l:.hat IA.Jas introduced and d:iE•d on thE!

OrdE'I" Paper, Bill 53, is to be re-introduced as BiJl 2S and the Minister has clearly stated that the Bill IAJilJ. haVE! SOITIE! changes. Why we are presenting this petiU.on today, Ml". Speake!", is perhaps to have som1=~ influence on the changes which wi].J. COITIE:' about in Bill 25. For the record, I would like to read the prayer of thr:! petition. It. is a petition l:o l:he HousE! of Assembly. 1 To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland in Legislative Sess:ion conve•ned: The petition of the undersigned residents of St..

John 1 s East Extern, IAJe are concernE!d that Lhe Government has given notice of Bil.l 25 which has the same title as Bill 53 introduced in the Legislature in the fall of 1989; and

Section 7 (2) of the forrne1" Bi11 No . 14- 1<29

53 gave new powers to thE! Cabinet to override the public right-of-way around ponds, lakes and next to rivers; and Those provisions of the former Bill 53 were unacceptable to many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, including the undersigned.

Wherefore your peti tionE!rs urge the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to ensure that the new Bill 25 does not contain the clause which was numbered 7 (2) in the former Bill 53 and that the new Bill state specifically that Cabinet does not have the power to take away the public right-of-way to our lakes, ponds and rivers, and as in duty bound your petitioners will ever pray. 1 Mr. Speaker, this petition is only signed by a fE!W namE:~s. but why WE! presented it and why we did not go out and just ask for a petition to be signed by thousands of names. I just did not have the time, Mr . Speaker.

I attended at leas ·t two me~::~tings. AN HON . MEMBER : You did not ask them to send that in, did you. MR. PARSONS: No, I did not ask them to send it in. I did sign it as one of the peoplE· who has an involVE!mE!nt in it; I certainly tJJould want to have input in it. I remind the House that I did attend two of those meE!tings and. I must say. and I said last night and I lAd.ll repE:~at eVE!ry time I get to my feet, that Committee did an excellent job. Why E!Ven last night, when it was in a different arena, a different subject - Meech Lake - we again went back to the public hearings . bit.

L30 March 30, 1.990 Vol XLI AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. PARSONS: I do not mind thoSE:' han. ME:~trtbers on the other side. They are altAJays trying to intE!rfE!re t~.d.th a person when he '.is sp<'!aking, but it does not rnattE!r to Ill(!. If they have someth'.ing to say I would not mind getting up to support t:hEd.r' petition or whatever. I am sure a lot of youtn yout" constituents would c etntai nly 1 '.ikE! to s ~~E! 1:h'J.C h and ever'y one of you gE!t up and support this petit'.ion . Mr. Speaker. the thing that excites me.

I want to makE• cJ.eatn to the House, is that while the Committee was holding public hearings, the Premier himself stated and I query this. I find '.it really unusual that the Premier made a statE!rrtE:'nt tJJh:i lE• the pub1:i .c hearings were in progress, say'.ing - MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible). MR. PARSONS: Now, the Minister Services does not like did interfere with the the Premier sa'.id. and cannot verbatim, but - MR. SPEAKER: Order. please! of Social it, but he procE•ss and I quob~: I I would retnind han. M~;;!rnbers Lhat in presenting a petil:ion - I would ask the han. the Member fotn St.

John 1 s East ExtE!rn to pleasE ! takE! his place mornentari.ly. A petition is only Five minutes and I would ask hon. Members to please refrain from interferring and give the han. Member silence while he is present'.ing his petition. No. 14 1no

The hon. the Member for St. John 1 s East Exb::~rn. MR. PARSONS: ·-···"-"''------·--Thank you very much, Mr . Speaker. You have to quieten them down somehow. Mr. Speaker, again Premier interferred process, because Legislative Committee hearings the Premier airwaves saying that again be reintroduced. I say the with that while the was hoJ.ding was on thl':! 7(2) would That is precedent sett:ing, to say the least. AN HON. MEMBER : That has nothing to do with it . MR. PARSONS: It certainly has to do with the petition. You were told to be quiet by the Speaker, so be quiet .

Go back and tell your constituents that you do not agree with what I am doing here. Mr. Speaker, again I reiterate what I said previousJ.y, in rny opening remarks. I hope by presenting this petition today WE! will have some influence on Cabinet, and, in par·ticular, on the Minister of Environment and Lands. Again, Mr. Speaker, I think this should be unanimous. As the Committee held hearings across the Island MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would remind thE! han. gentleman that his time has elapsed. MR. PARSONS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. L3l March 30, 1990 Vol XLI I tAdll clue up by saying when thE!

ComrnittE!e ht:!ld meetings across the Island, I do not think thE!Y rn~:d: one dissenter . With that said, Mr. Speaker, I thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: .The ... -h.on~·-· ... f'j1 E:~ ME! m be r for· K :l. 1 b rid E! . MR. R. AYLWARD : --·---··· ·-··- ~-·-·· · -·------~-----·-- Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I lAlOUJ.d l'i.kE! to have a f€:!W WOI''dS to say on t.his petition, l'v1r. SpE!aker. I gut::~ss it is rnol"E! recognizable as a petition on Bill 53, but since the nelAJ Se•ss:l.on of the House started, ·it :is notAl B·ill 55. MR. SPEAKER : Bill 25 . MR. R. AYLWARD : Bi11 25, is it? Okay, Bi011 2~).

Mr. Speaker. I must say, when l:he Comm'i.ttee hearing was heJ.d on Bill 53 last year I happened to be fortunatE! enough t:o bE! around thE! building and I carne up to see what was in the New Crown Lands Act which was to be discussed. As i.t was being explained, the Member for Mount Scio ·- Bell Island raised thE! issu€:• of t:he tE!n metE!r reservation aJ"ound ponds, and the cJ.ause in the new act lAJh:i.ch gave the Cabinet permission to give that ten mE!tE!rs OJ" gr·ant that l.:en meters to private owners. NotAl, Mr.

Speaker, thois i.s a d r as t i. c changE! in lAJ hat. ·t. he lifestyle of Newfoundlanders has beE!n since thE! ti.rnE! tAle came heinE~ . .To my knotAJledge, there is only one pond in this Province to which people do not have access l .. o !:he ten meter J.imit around it, and that one pond, I knotJJ, is Mur·r·ay 1 s Pond. I do not know if the1"e is another. No. 14. R3 1

AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. R. AYLWARD: Which one? AN HON. MEMBER: Virginia Lake. MR. R. AYLWARD: Oh, yes, Virginia Lake might be another one. Yes, Mr. Speaker. But I know the private club at Murray 1s Pond, the fish pond, is not accessible to the Newfoundland public. NouJ, Mr. Speaker. if that happE~nE~d to all ponds. rivers and lakes in this Province, I think it would bE~ absolute ly disastrous to the outdoor way of life that most Newfoundlanders appreciate and expect. They feel it is their right to have access to these ponds and rivers, Mr. Speaker.

I did note with some interest that when the Premier was trying to justify the reason for doing this, the reason that Cabinet might some time have to give or grant this ten meter access, he said we might need it to build roads or bridges some time in the future. Now, Mr . Speaker, whichever of his public servants told him to use that as an excuse should be fired, should be fired right on the spot, becausE~ the Premier knows or the PrE!miE!r should know, but certainly public servants should know, that thE! GovernrnE!nt owns the land now . They do not need to grant it for roads.

They do not need to grant it for bridges. It is their road. It is their land now, they can use it For what they like. So I do not know what the Premier was saying. I guess he was just trying to confuse the people of 1_32 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI the Province again and try to get. away with his little stunt, Mr. Sp•::!al<er, and start giv1ng out th1s ten metE!rS to sorn~::' people. IJJhich begs the quest1on: Why is this being done? The outfitters say they do not want it; the vast majority of NewfoundJ.andE!I~s. E•Vr:'n those who own cabins on these ponds, say they do not IJJcHlt it, they were not looking for th1s.

M1~. Speaker, the question is. as far as we are concerned, who al''e the peop1E! who arE! requesting the~ Premier to give them a grant to this ten meters of land between the high water mark and the private J.and around ponds? We can only speculate as to who is looking for it, Mr . Speaker. I will not speculate here on who might be requesting these pieces of land from the Prel'lliE•r. I l: is not o1~dinary NE~IAJfoundland(:!l~s, thclt I know. There is nobody in the District of Kilbride who ever came to me and as ked me if they could have a grant to thE! ten ITIE·t.E!I~s or · land. Mr.

Speaker. bed~ween l~he high water mark of ponds and lhr:!.iT own private lots. Ther·u are no private J.andowners or cabin owrH:!rS from Districts on this side of th1?. House who have:~ comE! to us .in any great numbers requesting l~ha l~ they be grantE!d this ten TnE! tres of J.and between the high water mark and the private boundaries of their land. I would like to know from the Premier or the Minister of Environment and Lands, if he is allowed to spE•ak on t.h:i.s, why would Cab1net or l~he Pr'li:Hnier IJ.Jant the right to grant Uwse 'lE!n metres of land to anyone in the Province, Mr. Speaker?

If there is a special circumstance - MR. SPEAKER : The han . gentleman 1s time is up . No . 14 1n2

MR. R. AYLWARD : That is too bad, Mr. Speaker. I am sure we m:i.ght hE!ar a few morE! of these petitions before that Bi11 is passed. MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Member for Mount Scio - Bell Island. MR . WALSH: Mr. Speaker, to the petition. There is no question that the public hear·ing process started by this Government is something we have wanted to see for years, but the Government of the day would not permit the hearing process l:his Government has introduced to alJ.ow people to have input into a Bill that is before the House. I can assure han.

ME!rnbers on the other side that the rights of Newfoundlanders wiLl. be well protected by this Government. Whether it is Bill 53, BiLl. 2!J, Bill 29 or Bill 104, the rights and the needs of Newf~undlanders will be protected by this Government by the merE! fact that we have introduced the hea1Aing process which was something the hon. gentlemen on the other sidE! never heard of. Fa:i.rness and balance and public hearings only touch their lips when their dE!IArieres touch the seats on the Opposition side of the House. Al1ow me to assure you, Mr.

Speaker, that the people on this side of the House 1Aii11 guaranteE! that the rights of Newfoundlanders wiJ.l be protE!Cted on this Bill or any other Bill brought. ·.into this hon. House. Orders of the Day L.33 March 30, 1.990 Vol XLI MR. BAKER : Motion 12, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1.2. Member fo1A debate. I beJ.ieve the hon. Kilbride adjourned 9.911 .. ~ ... -!i9_1~.L:....~ .. E J11].IB .. § : Hear, hE!ar! MR. SPEAKER : Order, p1ease! thE• the I am informed by the Table that the han. the Memb.:~r for l<ilbr·.ide has eight minutes left . MR. R. AYLWARD : Mr.

Speaker, it is too bad IJJO only have thirty minutes to speak on this Bill. This resolution concerning Meech Lake is probably one oF the most important rE!SOlut:i.ons WE! ar'E! going to s peak about in this 11 o us ''' in our time, Mr. Speaker. We are making decisions here in this House of Ass,:Hnbly which 1.1.d.ll affect all parts of Canada, and certainly the Future of Newfoundland and l .. abrado1A, particularly the future of the ch:i.ldren of Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker.

I still contend that a1though pE!oplE! have opinions of what Meech Lake is, whether they are for it or against it, rnost of them arE! not Farni.liar with the• dE•tai1s oF LhE! ME!E!Ch Lake Accord, and they are definitely not familiar with the alternate proposal presenb:'cl by thE:' Pl"~~nrier of this Province. I beJ.ieve, and I will keep debating this if I can, Mr. Speaker, as J.ong as is nE!Cessary, until this Goverrli'I'IE!nt dec:ides that the people of this Province deserve public hearings both on No. 14· R33

the resolution to support Meech Lake approval, which we already given, and on alternative proposal which been presented by the Premier. the have the has Most people think the Premier 1 s alternative proposal does not declare or set up a type of a distinct society for the province of Quebec. Mr. Speaker, the basic thing the PrE!mier 1 s proposal does is set up a revised Senate, a duplicate Senate - three forms, an English Senate, a French Senate and a super Senate .

I do not know what the super Senate is supposed to do, but I do know the English Senate and the French Senate, which is a type of a distinct society, the French part of the Senate, will have veto powers over anything that the rest of us want to do. That in itself is part of a distinct society; it gives special powers to Quebec. One thing that really irritateg me when we are talking about Meech Lake is people who discuss it saying there should be no distinct society, Quebec should not be a distinct society. Mr. Speaker, I say we all agree that each of us have a distinctness in this Confederation.

People in Kilbride have a distinctness from people in St. John 1 s, I believe. But is there a degree of distinctness throughouL this Country? Are Western Canadians exactly the same as Newfoundlanders? No, I would not say they were. When I visited Western Canada, a lot of the people I met in that province seemed to me to relate more to the Northwestern States, in the American society. They seemed to be that type of people. When I was in the portfolio of Rural Development, I met mostly L34 > March 30, 1990 VoJ.

XLI the farmers and the cowboys, so I guess that is what gave me the impression that they were more closely linked to the Northwestern or Prairie States, in the Unit1 "!d States, than thE!Y 1.uer•e to t.hr:! Maritime and Atlantic region of this country, Mr. Speaker. There are certain degrees of being distinct, whether we want to kno1.u it or not, Mr. SpeakE!r, and :if Quebec is not a different degree of distinctness, if that can be said, I do not know what is. We have a province wh ere a vas l:, va st majority of that province sp~~ak a different language than the majority of Canadians.

If tha 1- -Ls not more distinct. than ev€:!11 Newfoundland ·.is from Alberta, T do not know what is. The law the Quebec justice system is based on , M r . S p e a k e r , i s f r o rn t h E! F 1~ e n c h law. AN HON. MEMBER: ·vou-:-are list e ning . MR. R. AYLWARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I haVE! been listening.

I have bE!en J.istening to this debate, by the 1.uay, sinCE! thE• Constitution was patriatE!CI by Pierre Trudeau over the wishE!S oF QUE!bec, and one of the reasons IAJhy we are in this predicament now is because of the arroganCE! of a former Liberal Federal Government and Pierre Trudeau, who did not listen to any of the wishes of Meech Lake. I only haVE! a coup1E! of minutes left and I want to make a couple of cornrnents. I guess it i.s on1.y natural that all o"f us uJho have a. feeling one way or thE! other on this debate tend to look for referE!nces that agree wi t.h OUI~ argument.

I do not th".ink l:hat happE!ns :in aJJ. dE!batE!S. As a person, I am obviously no l: a No. 14 - R34

lawyer. I am a surveyor by profession. I have never graduated from universi·ty, so I am certainly not an academic. I have worked all my life, mostly with my hands and sometimes doing a bit of mathematics, but, what. I am going to have to do and what most Canadians are going to have to do in this debate, pE!ople who cannot understand the fine points of it, we are going to have to look at who are supporting the Meech Lake Accord and who are against it. That will be for peoplE! who want to give it enough consideration and that, probably wi 11. be, their final consideration. Mr.

Speaker, when this was debated in this House before, that. is what was in my mind and that was how I was going to debate it. What I saw were, ten premiers and a Prime Minister who went, aFter three years discussion on this, to a place called Meech Lake, I actually had to go to see what Meech Lake was, when I was in Ontario. It is not a bad spot, there were a lot of people swimming there, but I never got close enough to see the - Mr. SpE!aker, I only have OnE! minutE!, I cannot get side--tr·acked now. But. what we are going to have to do is decide who is supporting this Meech Lake Accord and who is not.

From all the information when we debated this before, we had ten Premiers representing every political party in this country, NDP, PC, and Liberal. We had ~ Prime Minister of our Country, who sat in on this and approved it. After the dust settled for a little while, we had the Leader of the Opposition in our FedE!ral Parliament who supported it, we had the Leader of the NDP in our Federal Party who supported it and al1 major political leaders at thr::~ time supporting this Meech Lake L.35 Mar·ch 30, 1990 Vol XLI Ag1neement in this House.

Whr::'n the debate startE!d before our PrerrdE!r came on the scene, we had an interim Leader of lhe Opposition and a Leader who was being deposed, I guess, Justice Barry now, who suppo1nted the Meech Lake Accord. AJ.l of these peop1.E! and the Opposition, the hon. Member for Port de Graue, at the time, supported it, I cannot say the hon. Member for Gander, as I do not know. Most of the Cabinet over there, Mr·. Speaker, we1nE! toeing the party line at thE! ti.me and supported the Meech Lake Accord.

Maybe they were delighted that the Pr~;:HniE!r carne on th~;:~ scene, that they stuck the~ knife in their former Leadc::~r and goL a new fellow, I do not know. Maybe that. is thE! rE!ason they got hirn, but they did support it. fhe:; difference now is, we are told that eleven people went into a back room and carne out t.o~.ri.th thE!Se connived changes to our Constitution. Min. SpE!aker·, th:i.s started in 1980, the discussion on the changes to our Constitution. In 1~82, Quebec was lE•ft out of thE:~ discussion.

In 1986, the yE•<.H' before Meech Lake rneE!l:ings, tlwre were discussions on ME•E!Ch Lake, it was not contrived by e?.leuen people?. in secret. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. R. AYLWARD: This booklet "i=lere it reasons I am going mind. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: is onE• to rna k e of the up my The han. Member 1 s tirne has elapsed . MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, could I have a rn"inute No. 14- R 3 ~)

just to - SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. R. AYLWARD : I guess I was making my points pretty strong, Mr. Speaker, they are afraid to hear· the argumE!nt. Mr. Speaker, I will have the opportunity to speak on this debate again, unless, the heavy handed emperor of this Province tells me that I cannot speak on behalf of my constituents and he tries to shove his Resolution down the throats of the people of this Province. l~he same as he has done with the amalgamation and other issues in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear! MR. SPEAKER : The han . the Member for St. John 1 s South. MR.

MURPHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr . Speaker, it certainly is a privilege for me to have an opportunity to rise on such an important issue as the Meech Lake Accord. I have listened attentively as I do day in and day out in this han . House to all the speakers who have made presentations on the Meech Lake Accord. I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that I was exceptionally impressed by the nat u r e of tho s E! who s too d s o "far' and made their presentations. They did it with heart and meaning. all han. Members. The difficulty is, Mr·. SpE!aker, is that half of them lacked content. AN HON . MEMBER: Hear. hear!

AN HON . MEMBER : L36 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI But we are with (inaudible) . MR. MURPHY: I IAJOUld suggest to the han. Mt::~rnber for Kilbride. as I mentioned to the han. Member for St. John 1 s East, and I cornplirnE!nted hE!r whon she stood and spoke the other night, she rnade her po"i.nt c-.:tnd hE!I" opinion, though I tota1.1y disagree with it. she did H: JJJithout pointing a finger or building her spE!ech on the backs of anybody on this side. which is unusual For friends opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) . MR. MURPHY: However, in sa ying congratulations.

I think I would be rE!rniss this JTJor ·n.ing, Ml". Speaker. if I did not say soinCE!re congr ·atulations to t:ht::' hon. ME!rnbeJ" for Burin- Placentia West. IAJho I think has been elected to thjs House three times and has fought diligE•ntJ.y. right Frorn day one, t.o have a road link between lht::~ matn artery on the Burin Peninsula and hi~ constituents in Petit Forte. Now whact is really good about all this. Ml". SpE!aker. is th< ;lt thE! han . Member for Burin -- P1.acen l~ia West (Mr.

Tobin) fough t J.ong and hard, and what is plea sing about the IJJhole thing is that a L.i bE!J"a1 Government were the ones who delivered that road to the han. Mernber . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: I might add. Mr. Speaker. that today is an extrerne1.y historic day and I would like to read into Hansard why. A hundred and eighty-odd years ago, this very day. Mr. Speaker. the Crown colony No . 14- ID6

of Newfoundland was given the property known as Labrador, in 1809. So it is a very unique day. It took 120 some odd y.::1ars later for the Privy Council to ratify that Labrador was part of the Province of Newfoundland. At that particular time I think it was the Dominion of Newfoundland or whatever. However I would congratulate the hon. Members from Labrador because it is a historic day for thE!m as it is a historic day for all Members. Now let me talk about how I feel as the Member for St. John's South in respect to the Meech Lake Accord.

This country is 126 years old, I think, or 127 years old this year and I would sugg.:1st to you that we aJ.l agree that Canada is a very progressive nation and we have lived without a constitution for that long and arduous period of time. But I - wouJ.d like to speak specifically about the effort made in 1982 by the Prime Minister of the day the hon. Pierre Elliot Trudeau. Before he started his First Minister's meeting when he brought aJ.l of the First Ministers of this nation together to deal with the constitution he was defeated before he started.

Because facing the Prime MinistE!r of the day at that time lJ..Jas the Premier of the Province of Quebec, Mr. Levesque, who was elected by the people of that province on a separatist platform. Not only that, that obstacle being almost totally insurmountable, because the mandate of Min. LevesqUE! was to come to the First Ministers Conference and denounce and deny and disrupt anything and everything that had to do with a constitution for this country. Now not only that but there were a L37 March 30, 1990 VoJ.

XLI couple of younger PrE!m:iE;!rs, a couple of upstarts, one was Premier Peckford, lAJho I felt. proud at that particular time to be the representative of Newfoundland, because I thought the man was full AN HON. MEMBER : You did, did you? MR. MURPHY: Yes, I did to bE! quitE! honE!St tAI:i.th you, I do not mind being honest. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. MURPHY: But that was al1 right becauSE! I felt that he had the best interest of this Province at heart. And that very gentl.::'l'nan got. therE! and he made the case for Lhis Province.

He was not abused and he lJ..Jas not remj.nded -· he l.1.Jas not reminded by the Prime Ministo1n of the day, Mr. Speaker - hotAJ J.ucky he was in 1 9 4 9 to be p a 1n t o f this country. That shot. was not fir.:H~ across his bow. And the Prime Minister listened to the Premier of the Province, and as the d(:1bate WE!nt on you couJ.d see it start to come together. And word has it that the Premier, had to ged: thE• nine Provinces, becaUSE! they knew that QUE!bE!C was not gcdng to secede at that t.:ime and sign any Constitution. Because after all Mr.

Laveques dtd have a 1nandate to disrupt and not to see Canada enshrine its Constitution. And the difficuJ.ty of bringing that Constitution home faced the PrtlllE! Minister of the day. But the word is that sometime early in the morning in the kitchen of one ·of the roorns :in Ottawa - maybe some of the Members Opposite, maybe the ME!rnber· fo1n Mount Pearl IAJas there at the time No. 1.4- R37

I remember Senator Ottenheimer, who at that timE! I think was the Minister of Justice, sitting at the right hand of thE! Premier and helptng him. Maybe the Member for Mount Pearl was there throwing in his two cents worth and trying to get the most and the best that ·the y co u 1 d for the p eo p 1 e of ' t hi s Province. And som~::~body said that over a cup of coffee, the Premier of this Province dropped an idea on another chap- his name lAJi.l1 come to rne in a second -· I think he was one of the lieutenants of Mr. Trudeau, I think his name was Chretien. I want everybody in the House to remE!mber that name .

It will be extremely significant in the next fou1n or five years. I would suggest to you, extremely significant, Mr. Speaker. And from that particular conversation over that cup of tea, apparently thE! thoughts and ideas of the Premier of this Province in concurrence with this Lieutenant from Trudeau's Cabinet, Chretien, went back to the Prime Minister, and before the day was out we had nine signatures on that document. A tremendous effort, a Liberal effort. A Liberal effort, Mr. Speaker.

Then the Members Opposite want this Government and the Premier to hold public hearings. rhis they would like to have prior to this resolution that has been put forward by the Premier, been voted on in the House, and they want to go gallivanting all over Newfoundland and Labrador for public hearings. They did not gallivant prior to 1982 with public hE!arings. Th~'Y trusted thE• Premier of the day then, as they trusted the Premier of the day in 1985--86 when the Meech Accord was coming together.

There were no public hearings - no thought of L38 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI public hearings when the previous PrE!TniE!r of this ProvinCE! WE!n l .. shuffling off to the First Minister's confE!rence and in a back room someu..Jhere l.1.1ith n·ine other Premiers and the First Minister of this nation signed an intent to bring a Constitution down around our ears. And then they came back. Mr. SpE!aker, the First MinJster·s carne back and the rat:ificat.ion dat:E! For this wonderful document known as the Meech Lake Accord - it will go down in history like the Magna Charta - this wonderfu1 document that was brought back.

And the twenty--third day of June 1990 t.~-Jas to be ens~nninE!d. Now, Mr. Speaker, we a11 knou..J that the position of the Premier of this Pr·ovinCE! has been rnal"kecl in every newspaper, spoken about on every television station from the western end of Victoria Island to Flatrock. And we knOLlJ that t.hat document now is faulted and faulted extremely. There is no possible way that this Province could sign or should sign the Meech Lake Accord, and tJJe haVE! to change Newfound1and' s posH:ion and let the people of Canada know there is nothing in this Accord that would make this Province, ever, a have Province .

Mr. Speaker, I suppose i.n aJ 'l fairness we haVE! to undE!rsl:and that Quebec as a Pr·ovince in t.h:is country would be extremely foolish not to accept or tJJanL Meech to b~ :· a reality. It is favou1ned, it i.s flawed and Favoured for the Province of Quebec. Now lllany times the PrE!rnier of Lh.i.s ProvinCE! and my colleagues and t.he Ministers of this Governm~"nt have stood in this place and other places and adamantly spoke about the fact that t.1.Je are fr·iends, No. 14 - 1\3 H

neighbors of the great and wonderful Province of Quebec. We totally respect their linguistic rights, we totally respect all the other r·ights that befall that Province. And at no time did the Premier of this Province or anyone in this Government ever say anything different. We have been explicit about the redneck attitude that have tried to tie themselVE!S to our stand on ME!eC~l Lake. We have adamantly and the Premier has adamantly disassociated himself from any sense of bigotry or any sen ·se of pick on Quebec. And we want to say it over, and over, and over again. But it is extremely difficult, Mr.

Speaker, for the people of this Province, this Government, thE! hon. Members opposite, when the Premier of the Province of Quebec stands in front of television cameras and tells Canada and Newfoundland specifically and the world in general, that Sl per cent of the dollars that flow into this Province come from Ottawa. Not only that, but 67 per cent of the 51 per cent comes from the Provinces oF Ontario and Quebec. How ungrateful we are not to rush to Ottawa and sign the Mel'::~ch Lake Accord. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there is an issue here that exceeds far and beyond the ramifications that have been whispered by friends opposite and other people, 1 What a chance Mr. Wells is taking tAJith the future of this Province. All he has to do is be a good little boy, fall in line, and maybe like Lazarus we will get some of the crumbs that fall off the Ottawa table. 1 But the Prr:~rnier satd, 1 no. 1 By himself he said, 1 no. 1 With the support of this caucus he said, 1 no. 1 And he will continue L39 March 30, 1990 Vol XLI to s.ay no. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: What transpired then, Mr. Speaker, the hon.

First Minister, old Irish ey•::!s, and I love Irish eyr:1s, t.~o.d th a name Mutnphy why would I not. Ht:1 sits and he concocts. He gets close to his friend fr·orn NE!lAJ Brunswick and he whispers to h-.i.m 1 Premier McKenna the Federal Government would probably be a lot nicer to you as time goes on if you stand in your place and b(! a little nicer, a little more accepting and br·ing in, not a parallel, but sorne kind of a companion document. 1 Then Sena l:or Murtnay got this in his hip pockE!t and he j urnped on a planE~ and he rushed down and said, 1 rnaybe we can get Wells on side.

Filrnon ".is out therE! and maybe he IAJiLJ. comE! on side. We can get Filrnon and McKenna and tAle tAJi11 isolate that. fellow Wells. He is painting himself in a corner•, and he sa:i.d, 1 Now we have them, 1 because he said, Wells said, 1 lf he uJas by him s e 1 f he wo u 1 d not s tan d -.i n t h E• way of the Meech Accotnd. 1 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. MURPHY: I never said any such th-.ing. Now the Prime Minister came on rv, Mr. Speaker·, and took fiflE!E!n minutes of prime tirne television from the nation of taxpayers dollars and cents and said absolutely nothing.

But hE! td.ed to tAJarm up, to generate sorne interest, but he got fooh~d by h:i.s own, the very people tAJho put: him in. The hon. MPs frorn Qud)ec had a caucus meeting and terrified l:.he Prirne Minister· of l::he country and No. 14 1n9

told him do not dare accept Mr. McKenna 1 s little parallel or we arE! history we are gone . Some of them were so radical they said, we arE! gone, we are going to lE!ave. And what did he do, he realized that could not stJJing. Now the han. Members opposite had gotten up be•hind the McKenna proposal and said to the han. the Premier, what is wrong with you, you will not even accept or listen to your colleague from the Province of New Brunswick .

Then right in the middle of trying to push McKenna 1 s thoughts and ideas upon ·us, the Prime Minister does a turnaround and Bourassa does a turnaround and tells McKenna to get lost. And now his little companion agreement is no longer acceptable to the MPs in Quebec who are part and parcel of the MulronE!Y Goverment. So now they are in no --man 1 s land. Back alone again. Mr. Filmon now understands where h•:~ is. He has to stand against the Meech Accord. Mr. McKenna now has obviously had second thoughts about his position. Let us for the record, Mr.

Speaker, have a look at this flawed do.cument and see wha l~ has taken place with the Premiers of the provinces across this great nation. It is only a week and a half ago that the Premier of the province of B.C. Mr. Vander Zalm, expressed his concern about the Senate and said under no circumstances could he support Meech. He would support Meech, but he certainly wanted the flawed end of the Senate changed.

The neighbour of B.C happens to be the great province of Alberta, a very much 1 have 1 province, no sales tax, a great place in which to live, a heritage fund that exceeds billions of dollars, a great place, and there are LlW March 30, 1990 Vol XLI thousands and thousands of Nt=!Wfoundlanders wolnktng in that environment and we are very thankful for it. But the~ Pr·emter of that provinCE!, a To1ny prE!lTrir::!r, what does he do? In defiance, trying to deliver a message to the Prime Minister of the country, turns around and holds an election for a Senator. AN HON. MEMBER : Exactly. MR.

MURPHY: Holds an election for a 5E!nat.or. So a little nudge from Alberta that he does not agree, he indicates that there are flaws. AN HON. MEMBER: He- · got ele -cted (inaucLi.ble) . MR. MURPI.:!..Y: Yes. And who got elect.E!d is right, Mr. Speaker, a refor·mc~r! A reformer got elected. Saskatchewan has to support it because eVE!ry ti.rnE! t.he tJJ.ind bJ.otAJS long and hard and the gravel ''•nds up in Manitoba, then thE• FE•dE•ra1 Government pumps out a billion dollars, so they have no alternative but to stand Fast. SOME HON. MEMBERS : (Inaudible) . MR. MURPHY: And hope, and hope. NOlAJ Mani. toba, Mr.

Speaker, theiln posih.on is quite clear. It . is very s:i.rniJ.ar to the han. the Premier and the caucus tn this Government. They do not want any part of t.hts flawed document For the sake of a document. And Ontario, the neighbour of Manil:.oba, because Ontario is so big, so massive, so productive, they know they have the numbers and the strength within the present Accord to VE!tO and not get hurt within it . No . 1/1. R4.0

Quebec 1s position is v.:~ry clear. They benefactors of Meech. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. MURPHY: obviously are the Sure. The same as it tAJas in th~::~ referendum. They are the benefactors. New Brunswick; We know where New Brunswick is. New Brunswick does not support the Meech Lake Accord. Mr Ghiz, is '.in a very difficult spot, he is in a very difficult spot because, for the first time in the history of that beautiful lit:.t.le province, the Garden of the Gulf, had the chance to be umbilically ti