Manitoba Hansard — 22 March 1976 (Sitting 47, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-47

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Vol. XXIII No. 47 8:00p.m., Monday, March 22nd, 1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans-Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

March 22, 1976 THE LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8 p.m. Monday, March 22, 1976 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 1385 MR. CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed this evening, I'd like to draw the attention of the honourable members to the gallery on my upper right where we have 26 members of the 33B Cub Pack under the di rection of Mr. Bob Kirk. The Cub Pack is located in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. On behalf of the members of the Assembly, I bid you welcome this evening. SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE MR. CHAIRMAN: I refer honourable members to Page 13.

Resolution 29(a) - the Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, just before the committee rose I was endeavour ing to answer a few questions posed by the Honourable the Member for Fort Rouge, and in particu lar matters dealing with women in employment and the Status of Women Advisory Council and so on.

As we rose I read an excerpt from a News Bulletin that went out on October 3rd in my name indicating that what we are endeavouring to do within the Civil Service, to make people more aware of our desires and our targets within the government of the province and following the issuing of that particular communique, a policy statement was issued by the Premier giving emphasis and impetus to the statement that I, as Minister, had made in October and I think that it would be well for the record if I read the statement of the Premier dated December 12th.

"A policy statement indicating the Manitoba Government's commitment concept of equal employment opportunities in the Civil Service for those groups of Marii tobans who appear to have been barred from fair and meaningful participation in the labour force has been distributed to all Provincial Government Ministers and Departments by Premier Ed Schreyer. " The statement lists these groups as women, native people, older workers and the physically, mentally and economically handicapped.

And quote: ''Positive steps will be undertaken to ensure equal opportunities for members of these groups both in securing Civil Service employment and in career advancement within the Civil Service. All Ministers and Deputy Ministers will be responsible for the develop ment and implementation of 'affirmative action programs in their department'. "The career planning office of the Civil Service Commission will provide guidance and assistance in the development and monitoring of programs.

"All departments will be required to file their departmental affirmative action programs with the career planning office in the next fiscal year and provide for necessary additi onal funding of approvod programs in their 1977-7 8 departmental Estimates. "Our goal will be to ensure that the designated groups will be appropriately represented at all levels of employment in the Civil Service." Now my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Rouge, and I don't fault him for it, says but what is being done now, as of this minute.

I would suggest that through the co-ordinator within the Department of the Civil Service, the requirements as laid down by the policy statement of the government by the Premier, that departments are being con tacted accordingly to start giving an indication of positive steps which will be taken in the next ensuing year.

I must say that as of this particular moment I cannot give any real precise indi cation of the details of those programs but information has been forwarded to me to indi cate that the pronouncement of the First Minister is being carried through by the respec tive departments, through the Civil Service Commission and the staff.

From the Career Planning Branch I indicate to my honourable friend that at the present time staff-wise the Career Planning Branch is staffed by the co-ordinator referred to, two equal employment officers, one new careerist, a seconded researcher in new careers and one administrative support person. I can say to my honourable friends that the concept of equal opportunity for employment recognizes that every individual must receive a fair chance, receive a fair chance for access to training, employment and advancement. Special programs are being

1386 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• developed to provide this access where it has been denied in the past. Ten government departments have initiated contact with the Career Planning Branch regarding the initial steps towards planning for equal employment opportunities. These departments are analyzing their work forces in other to determine base line data and to decide what steps they can lake to improve the representation of women, native people and the other people referred to in the general statement that I made. In addition to that, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable member asked the question, quite legitimately, by comparing those on educational leave of a year ago, comparing the reports of '74 and '75. Why, he poses the question, so few' educational leaves? Twenty eight in number. This is slightly down from 1he number in the year 1974 but I would suggest that the answer lay, Mr. Chairman, in what I have just read out. The Manitoba Government is making use of internal senior staff, through the Director of Recruitment in the Civil Service or what I call the general manager, Mr.

Bob Best, in the Civil Service Commission, to do training in a great variety of workshops and seminars. This has resulted in a decrease in the need for sending Civil Service on outside educational leave because more of it is being done internally. We feel in the Civil Service Branch that the more that we can achieve with internal training, the better it will be and the more likely of better results. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge also raised the question of the establish ment of an Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

I'm sure that he is aware of the fact that about three weeks ago, I believe it was, we, the Premier and myself, and two or three other members of Cabinet met with the Action Committee on the Status of Women and one of their requests was for the establishment of an Advisory Council similar to what they have at the Federal level and in one or two provinces, including Ontario. I want to repeat what I said at that meeting so there's no misunderstanding.

I said it's very nice for the Federal authority and also for the authority in Ontario to produce lovely looking green brochures talking about the intents of government recognition of an input through the establishment of advisory councils comprising women as advisers to the government and the acceptance at the federal and provincial levels in some jurisdictions for the establishment of advisory councils. I want to say to my honourable friends of this committee I have no objections at all to advisory councils. But having read, Mr.

Chairman, the documentation from the federal jurisdiction, the input of the federal authority, the documentation of the Province of Ontario and the input there, nothing more is being gained simply because of the estab lishment of an Advisory Council on the Status of Women than we're achieving here with out formally having one established.

Having said that, we did assure the representations that were made to us that the matter is under advisement and when there is an advisory council established it will be one that will be recognized but in the meantime even in its absence I think that we in Manitoba are doing far more than any other jurisdiction in Canada to recognize equal employment opportunities for all. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for his answers. They were quite informative.

I'd like if I might to pick up on some of the points he did raise which I think perhaps just bear some further exploration. The one comment he made which I thought was of some interest was his own personal observation that when applications are entered in for senior positions, managerial positions in the provincial service, that in fact he notices himself very few applications coming in from women which I think is a comment of some note. Perhaps it denotes a wider scale problem than one simply of taking out advertisements and inviting them to come.

I think the problem is probably more deep set in terms of the whole--(Interjec tion)--Well I wouldn't want to advise the Minister to go chasing after applications. I think that that would be far beyond my powers of advisement. But it does strike me, Mr. Chairman, that aside from having the Minister scour the streets for likely possibili ties or applicants, it does raise two questions. I think one is the issue of whether there

March 22, 19 76 1387 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) •.... should be an extra effort undertaken to ensure that when senior positions are offered that there is a special educational program outside the Civil Service, perhaps in the universities, community colleges, and managerial groups to enlist the enrolment or application of women. I, over the dinner hour, was reading a speech, Mr.

Chairman, from Sylvia Gilbert who is the well-known Director of the Womens Bureau in the Federal Government of Canada and she pointed out that close to two-fifths of all students receiving Bachelor degrees are women and that about 25 percent of all those receiving Masters degrees are women. Again it points out that, and she draws the conclusion, there obviously are a number of women who are properly qualified for such positions, so there must be some reason wh y they're not coming forward.

I would think that that would be one of the areas or targets that the Provincial Government should aim at, to try and discern, while there's obviously a pool of potential of talent, why it is not coming forward into the Provincial Civil Service. I would simply suggest and I'm sure that's part of the program which the Provincial Government is now undertaking to isolate what are some of the factors. It may be that the counselling that goes on in the universities and the high schools may not be sufficient to stream people in that direction.

It may also just be that there is a reluct ance or lack of awareness that such positions are available. I think that we have condi tioned so long in our society that there are certain jobs that are for women and certain jobs for men that it just may be that when someone sees an application for what looks to be like that kind of la nguage we use in Civil Service applications - it always even frightened me a little bit sometimes - but what would be required to fill them, that it may be that there would have to be more recruitment. I think in particular, by way of digression, Mr.

Chairman, that I in the past year have had several discussions for example with the City of Winnipeg concerning poten tial management trainees in the urban field, in the planning field. Again it strikes me that the government itself isn't particularly aggressive in going out and explaining its pro grams to the variety and range of potential students that might come into it. That would be one issue that I would raise. The second one, Mr. Chairman, might be a little more difficult.

That is that I think one of the discrimination s that does arise and I've seen it happen in the university where I work and other places, and that is that many women who are quite well qualified by way of experience for more senior positions, who may be presently occupying clerical positions that don't have the proper paper credentials, the official or formal training, feel reluctant to make applications.

I noticed that in 1972 the Federal Government initiated a special training program in their Service for women in the clerical-secretarial field who had had experience as executive secretaries and so on who might want to make the jump into a managerial or administrative line of staff position, but just need some extra training support along' the way.

I again would be interested to know if that is included as part of the internal training program that is presently being offered by the program where specifically women in senior clerical positions are really offered and say here's your chance, and given some special consideration in applying for that job. I guess we discovered in the Federal level we are quite prepared to send people off for a year's language training if that's the requirement for the job. I'm wondering if we shouldn't be doing a similar thing in the issue of all those who suffered disadvantages.

Not just women, I agree with the Minister, it should include other people who may come in with initial disadvantages. So I would simply raise that as a point and I would assume that it would be taken. It just does underline, I think, the importance that the Minister raised himself that you simply can't rely upon a passive, responsive kind of system, where you say here's the ad, come to us. I think the initiation of special education in particular is the way of upgrading and balancing out those inequities. Mr. Chairman, there is a couple of side issues that I think are equally important.

One issue - and this may be jumping a little bit ahead - but I notice that one of the con cerns raised by the Status of Women organizations is that with so many women coming into the work force, I believe it is now 40-45 percent, one of the handicaps they often run into is the care of children, many married women in particular or women who are

1388 March 22 , 1976 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• separated or are called single parent families. I am wondering if the Provincial Government has made any steps to utilize under its own day care program the establishment of day care centres in or near office complexes that house provincial civil servants. Are any efforts being made to ensure that there are proper day care facilities? I lmow that there are in the universities and the community colleges.

I am wondering if that kind of program is being initiated for those who are just working generally in the Provincial Civil Service, whether there is any effort - whether first if the need has been canvassed, if that would make a substantial difference for people whether there was day care facilities available. I think that the fact that there is a day care pro gram now operating in the province would make it so much easier to implement and I'm wondering if as part of the action program the Minister or the committee that he belongs to has initiated any efforts in that regard.

The second issue that I would like to raise, Mr. Chairman, which may be slightly off the pure question of the Civil Service Commission, and I'm quite prepared to leave it until we discuss the Women's Bureau, but it may be the Minister would want it asked now, is the issue that arose a week or two ago concerning maternity leave for school teachers who are after all, within purview of the provincial arm of - they are I think properly con sidered public servants that gain a good deal or a large part of their support from the provincial funds.

I'm wondering if in fact we shouldn't be moving with some rapidity to correct what is an obvious error in the way in which women teachers, in the legislation in fact, that if the court has interpreted the Act to construe that maternity leave is not a right of teachers because of their so-called professional status, if that should not be clari fied.

Because it seems to me again an inequity that if a male teacher for example can book off, have so many sick days leave if he happens to have a gaiter problem or sore foot or a pain in the wherever they get them these days in teaching, it would seem to be a similar instance to someone who is pregnant and who is having a baby. It seems to me it's a fair act of discrimination that does take place at the present moment.

As I say while it doesn't come under the purview of the Civil Service Commission it seems to me an area where the government could take initiative that would very clearly demonstrate its concerns and feelings about this area. I also would say, Mr. Chairman, I welcome the Minister's - I don't lmow if he's changed his mind or whether it's just more of a public declaration of acceptance of the notion that there could be an advisory council.

I think that while I respect his assessment of the perhaps lack of progress that such councils have secured in the Ontario and the Federal level it has always struck me that if there is any valuable role to so-called advisory councils, it is to provide a li ttle bit of an independent watchdog to the actions of government, a role I think that is always necessary in this day and age. One of the things that it could do would be provide a public independent point of view on progress or lack of progress, and I realize it's not always in the interest of government to invite criticism.

It would seem to me in this area it would probably be the only way in which full public disclosure, dissemination of information could be had. While the Minister, the committee and so on have access - and I guess the co-ordinator of the Career Placement Training Program - lmow what's going on, really no one else does. If there is any need for public pressure, even to the point where if the Minister is anxious to achieve some thing that he finds his colleagues reluctant or not as aware, as attuned as he is then that kind of public pressure would be of some assistance in bringing that to their attention.

So I would say that I think again that another useful initiative that could be taken on the part of the government would be the establishment of an advisory council. I don't see it as any too complicated a measure. I imagine that could be done quite simply and from what I gather the women's organizations are more than anxious to fill the positions and to get it initiated at a very low cost on a volunteer basis.

I think that would be a very impor tant symbolic step in demonstrating the intentions and I think general concern of all mem bers of both sides of this House that the program accelerate its progress and provide for more measures. Finally, Mr. Chairman, I have a final question in relation to this program. That is the Minister indicated that the directive that was issued when the press release or

March 22 , 19 76 1389 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) • • • . order-in-council, whoever it was, was passed sug- gested additional funding would be made available to provide for special programs or what ever would be required to do so. I wonder if the Minister could perhaps elaborate that a little bit more. I wasn't sure if he suggested that that additional funding was available for this year's Estimates or whether in fact each of the departments were supposed to lay down a plan of action that would carry with it an assessment of how much funds they would need for next year's Estimates.

In effect, what we're looking for now is that each of these committees working in the departments is being requested to put forward a budget of what ever additional funds are required. Perhaps the Minister could indicate at this stage is there some time limit on that? When are these plans of action supposed to be prepared in each of the departments with budgets on them? Is there some timetable that has been set up to ensure that those additional programs would be operative by next year? Perhaps the Minister could comment on those questions. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR.

PAULLEY: I thank the member for his input, Mr. Speaker. One remark that he did make that intrigued me greatly, I don't know whether it was through inadver tence or not, his choice of phraseology which lended to me his support from what really and basically was what I had said about the setting up of the advisory councils in other jurisdictions, that it was a symbolic gesture. So if I can take his literal wording from my honourable friend that's exactly the position that I've taken, that as the Minister res ponsible I don't want that in Manitoba, any symbolic gesture in the setting up of an advi sory council.

We want to be able to do something that's really worthwhile. Dealing with the matter of the additional • . . MR. AXWORTHY: . • • clarify that remark. I didn't say symbolic gesture, I said it would be a symbolic demonstration of the intentions of the government to proceed with all action and it would provide a fairly strong visible demonstration. MR. PAULLEY: Well, I don't know, I'm not going to argue with my friend on a play of words.

To me the important part was that he said it was just symbolic, and as far as I'm concerned, symbolic has a connotation - well it's nice to look at, but in my opinion let's do something about it rather than it just be symbolic. My friend mentioned about the question of the program to bring about the basic principles involved with the equal work opportunities in the various departments and the funding of the same; the additional expenditures, will be applicable to the budget in the year 1977-1 978 Estimates.

The next fiscal year will be taken up with an assessment as to what can be done or should be done within the respective departments. In other words an assessment of what should be done to bring about more equal opportunities, and the department is already on stream in the initial stages to ascertain from each of the departments, what can you do? Or what can be done in your respective departments to achieve the desire of the govern ment in bringing about equal employment opportunities?

And if funding is required, or when funding is required, have a combination of this and when, then we will know for the Estimates of the next ensuing year after this one how much money will be required in order to achieve the desire. How much additional financial input will be necessary, say for instance, to have on our employment rolls a handicapped person whose physical cap ability of full work performance may be less than somebody else, how much will be required to carry that type of employment through?

How much additional financing will be required for somebody who is educationally disadvantaged or hasn't had the opportunity of a comparable education? How much more will it cost because of the employment of that type of a person? So I think that answers the timing of the funding raised by the Honourable the Member for Fort Rouge. He made mention again of the decision of the Court of Appeals in respect of maternity leave, and that was of course in reference to the school teacher.

I want to say that in accordance with our regulations, already we have a provision for the granting of maternity leave for all who require the same in the whole of the Civil Service, it's not just applicable to the non-professional but the professional as well. So at least in that area we are giving equal treatment to our - I guess it's safe enough to say - our pregnant employees, whether they're professionals or whether they're clerical staff. So at least maternity leave is applied across-the-board. I agree with my

1390 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CML SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) • • • • • honourable friend that we will have to take, and are taldng, a very close look, taldng a very close look as a result of the decision that was made the other day and as I announced in the House.

I am also informed by my col leagues before me here that we even go beyond maternity leave, that we have paternity leave now, I believe one day in some cases, but where there's an adopted child coming into a family I believe it can be as high as ten days, or something along that general line, in order that the parents can become associated with their newly acquired offspring, particularly in the field of adoptions. A member also mentioned the question of day care centres within the Civil Service: What are we doing, or are we doing anything about it?

I can say, yes, we are maldng an assessment and one of the questionnaires I believe is being circulated within the Civil Services. If there were provisions for day care centres, would they be of assistance to you? Would you participate? And the need for them in general areas of the Civil Service. And, of course, I don't think I need to say to my honourable friend that in the whole area of the provision of day care centres that this government has done more than most governments in Canada, and certainly more than any other government ever has done in the Province of Manitoba.

Also in joint Council, where representatives of management and the employee representatives are in the process of setting up discussion groups for the purpose of ascertaining the need or the desirability of establishing day care centres, and I'm sure honourable members of the committee will realize these aren't facilities that can be estab lished without a fair amount of financial involvement.

Another consideration that is being given within the Civil Service, which is really related to provision of day care centres, is consideration on behalf of the mothers, par ticularly single parents, and child care to ascertain how far we may be able to go in part-time employment.

And I think this is important too, that if we can have an arrange ment whereby a single parent would only be required or would come in for part-time employment, say, a half a day today and another half a day tomorrow, and some other single parent would take the other half of the day so that we have the advantages of a full day's employment insofar as input and requirements for the work production.

If it can be done that way here is another avenue that is being surveyed at the present time to assist in the employment of more of those that may be - I don't use the word in its nor mal context - handicapped because of the requirements of provision for offspring. So I think, Mr.

Chairman, by and large in these general areas raised by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, we're not shattering the earth, we're not changing the colour of the moon, far be it from us even to indicate so, but we are very much aware of the problems that do exist in the Civil Service, and I'm sure that he would agree with me that it is not only in the Civil Service that we have these problems. It is our objective with the programs that have been announced by the department that we can put our own house in order and show a good example to private industry as to how they should function as well. MR.

CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the other day, Thursday, when the Minister introduced the Estimates for the Civil Service, he and I exchanged some views as to the state of the morale and content in the Civil Service, and also with respect to different philosophies as might be pursued by himself and myself, or by our respective parties, where the public service of a province is concerned.

It's not my intention to get back into that area, but I would like to ask him a few specifics before we move off this item and try to proceed with the concluding stages of consideration of these Estimates. There are some specifics that are troubling me, Mr. Chairman, and one of them is the new Careers Program. I am not certain but I'm assuming that the new Careers Program is carried out under the Civil Service through the Career Planning Branch.

If I'm incorrect on that assumption, I'm sure the Minister will so advise me. 1I I'm correct, I would like to have an accounting from him as to what the new Careers Program essentially tries to do and to what degree he can assure this side of the House that it's successful, and that it does not result in waste of taxpayers' money and does not

March 22, 1976 1391 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••••• result in programs that really are simply exercises in appearing to make the government look active in this particular area at public expense. Some of the comments that have come to me about the new Careers Program have not been either flattering or reassuring, and I would appreciate the Minister's comments and instruction in this area.

Just what is the New Careers Program aimed at doing, and how successful is it at doing it; or is it just a kind of a public relations exercise to make the government look good, look active in the area of trying to relocate and reassign persons in the public service, but in fact, an exercise which is not producing that result except superficially and that is resulting in unnecessary public expense? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I want to inform my honourable friend that the new Careers Program is based in the Ministry of Colleges and Universities and not within the Civil Service.

So the detailed operation of the program I'm sure that my colleague the Minister of Colleges will be able to detail to a far greater depth than I. But, notwithstanding that I would suggest to my honourable friend on behalf of the program itself that I will not support, or could not support the contention that it's a waste of money. I don't think that he used the phrase, "window dressing", but I want to assure him that, of course, it's costing money when one considers basically the background of the people involved in the new Careers Program.

Here again we have a considerable number of those who have been historically disadvantaged by reasons of being from remote areas - I think it would be proper, ancestral background, and economic background and the likes of that - that haven't had the same advantage as others. I will say, Mr.

Chairman, that there is an involvement with the Civil Service and in the Civil Service because we are doing within the Civil Service with a reasonable number - I don't know offhand how many at the present time - a reasonable number of people who have come through the Career Training Program, at least for awhile, in that we are taking into the Civil Service for the purpose of further training of the students coming out of the Career Training Program of Colleges and Universities and having them involved in the Civil Service.

We've been doing this now for a fair length of time, and that is one of the objectives, really, Mr. Chairman, that we have in our career planning process, that we can take graduates from the similarly named new Careers Program, have them involved in the Civil Service, and hopefully that with a culmination of the basic knowledge that they obtain in the Careers Program at the colleges and universities we'll augment that basic training within the Civil Service so that they can eventually take full

part in the affairs and the production of what is required within the Civil Service. So if my honourable friend feels that the new Careers Program is expensive, wasteful, I leave that assessment to him. All that I can say as one of the Ministers involved, after a spell in the new Careers Programs of individuals we are taking a num ber into the Civil Service to augment that training so that they can become more fully capable of reasonable production. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I raised a question as to whether it is a somewhat wasteful program in a fiscal sense.

I'm not sure that it is, but I raise that question and I assume that I will have to explore it more fully on the Estimates of the Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs to make that determination.

I appreciate what the Minister has said about the opportunities that are made available to Manitobans who perhaps have been disadvantaged in terms of achieving those opportunities in their own areas of the province, and if this goal is being achieved in an efficient and a pro ductive way both for them and for the province and the community, well then the pro gram is all to the good, but if it is a program which has been suggested to me is merely an exercise in public relations in some areas and results in the public service having to absorb additional staff that they would not otherwise normally absorb and thus increases the payroll of the public service, then I think that it is the duty and the responsibility of the Opposition to scrutinize that kind of an operation as closely as possible.

If that can't be done under the Estimates of Civil Service, then I accept that, I'm prepared to do that on the Estimates of Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs. Mr. Chairman, turning to another specific, I wonder if the Minister would be in a position without pinning him down to a precise one digit figure of telling us how many

1392 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••••• contract employees there are in the MGEA; and approximately, once again without asking him to pin himself down to a one digit figure, how many such employees are there by department and by program and whether or not contract employees are included in the Civil Service Pension Plan. I know we haven't come to the Pension Plan on the Estimates yet, Sir, but the question is general and hope fully can be put to him under the resolution having to do with salaries. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I hope, Mr.

Chairman, that I got all of the questions from my honourable friend, the Member for Fort Garry. I believe the figure for the number of contract employees runs about 700.

I want to say to my honourable friend they are not covered by the Manitoba Government Employees Agreement, in that they are no different than contract employees as I understand in any collective agreement at present registered with the Labour Board, because a contract is a contract that can be terminated at any time as I'm sure my honourable friend is well aware; they are not covered under the Civil Service Superannuation Fund because they are contract employees. I am informed that there are about ten departments in total that have the majority of the 700 contract employees.

I think for instance in my own Department of Labour there may be three or four which is a relatively insignificant number. In the Depar tment of Northern Affairs, I think you would find that - I was going to say, and I thank my honourable colleague, the Member for Northern Affairs, originally there were a fair num ber in Northern Affairs when that department particularly was starting up and the situation now is they've probably been brought into the Civil Service on a full-time basis or their contracts have expired.

But I would suggest that there is a constant turnover departmental wise as to the number of contract employees involved. I think that generally - I didn't quite, and I apologize, catch the last couple of questions of my honourable friend. I thought he mentioned something insofar as salaries, I'm not quite sure, but I think these are the prime questions that he asked. If I could, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to go back for a moment to the observation of my honourable friend in respect of the New Careers' program.

He men tioned something about it being more or less a dodge, or had a connotation of public rela tions. I would have to say to my honourable friend with all the vigor in my possession that this government doesn't carry on expensive programs, indeed I will admit the New Careers program is simply for the purpose of carrying on what one might term good pub lic relations. It's fair game of course in the field of politics for government to be accused of this, and it might be, Mr. Chairman, that in some areas of government, even this very efficient government could be accused of it.

But I would suggest, I would sug gest it is not so, Mr. Chairman, in the field of new career development, because we are trying very hard in this particular field of activity to give people a chance to do things for themselves that they wouldn't have the chance if it wasn't for programs of the nature of the New Careers.

I also want to indicate to my honourable friend that within the Civil Service, public service, we do not take people from the career programs simply so that they can be involved with them and so that it looks good; that little Mary Jane has graduated from a career program into the Civil Service and look what we've done for her, because we trust and hope that the Civil Service despite criticisms levied a!?f!.inst it from time to time is a reasonably efficient operation. I felt that I had to make those remarks to my honourable friend so that there's no misunderstanding.

The New Careers program is not a public relations' program per se, it's a program to help people help themselves. The input of the graduates from the career program into the Civil Service is acknowledg ment of the basic training that they got and an opportunity for them to make further advancements. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 29(a). The Ho nourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, just so there's no misunderstanding between the Minister and me, I am not being critical of the public relations function. There's nothing wrong with public relations, particularly if it's good public relations.

But per haps the Minister used the proper term which I didn't use in my original question; he used the term "window dressing", and perhaps that's the term I should have used rather

March 22, 1976 1393 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••••• than public relations. I should have asked him whether the program was window dressing, because certainly - and he's answered it.

But I want to make the point clear that I am not suggesting that this government any less than any other government or any less than any other public agency has no right to engage in legitimate public relations, but if it were a matter of window dressing - and I defer to the Minister in the choice of term because it's far more accurate with respect to what I'm trying to say - then I think in a period of so-called economic restraint it becomes a questionable kind of an exercise.

I appreciate what the Minister has said about it, however, and also the fact that the essential questioning on the topic should probably come under the Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs and I'll pursue it at that point. I do so, I want to say, Mr. Chairman, because I have had my attention drawn to it and I believe that the First Minister has had his attention drawn to some criticisms with res pect to the progra.Tll. Perhaps they're not valid but they have been levied with the First Minister.

I happen to know that because of the fact that the criticisms were sent to him with copies sent to some of my own colleagues. So it's no secret that some of us have been asked to examine the validity and the legitimacy and the viability of this program, and that's my reason for having raised it with the Minister. On the point having to do with my questions with respect to the MGEA and the contract employees, Mr. Chairman, the Minister did answer most of the questions that I asked him. He anticipated one that I didn't ask him.

I don't believe I asked him about wage categories or salaries because I thought it was probably an impossible question for him to answer in this context and should better be put in an Order for Return. But if he's in a position to do so, one of the questions that I did intend to ask him about it was while asking him if he could shed some light on the number of contract employees there are by department and by shared program, could he also shed some light on the wage categories, wage levels that the majority of these contract employees enjoy?

If he can do so, then that certainly was the question that I intended to ask him; I don't recall that I did, but he obviously anticipated me, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, my honourable colleague before we're finished tonight, will call me the great anticipator. I'd be more than happy to produce figures by way of an Order for Return if that is the desire of the honourable gentleman, because of course we can't hide figures and the payments that are made to individuals.

But I would say that all of our contracts first of all go through a process of assessment with Planning and Priorities Committee as to the contract provisions, and then in co-operation with Planning and Priorities Committee and Management Committee, a cost figure is arrived at. The involvement that I have had as a member of the Treasury Branch - and of course my friend would appreciate that being one of the responsibilities of a Cabinet Minister, to look into prices paid for work ftmctions.

I think I can pretty well assure my honourable friend that any price arrived at in a contract is comparable to similar jobs that are paid for within the Civil Service and in private industry generally as well. I don't think it could be established that there were any real posh contracts that were out of line with what would be paid for similar work performed in private industry or by other groups of employers.

If my honourable friend will take that in the manner in which I give it to him as to my knowledgability in the process of assessment, if he would accept that, okay, but if he wants more definitive information, then I suggest an Order for Return. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 29(a): The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of questions. I asked a series of questions on Friday and made my remarks then.

I know the Minister started to answer some of them in reply and I guess somewhere he got sidetracked since that time and perhaps didn't get an opportunity to answer all of them. I raised such issues as setting up a grievance board as was requested by MGEA, I don't believe the Minister has touched on that area, and there was some other ques- · tions that I had raised to him at the same time. --(Tnterjections)--Well one is that perhaps

1394 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CIVIL SE RVICE (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ••••• he can give us some idea of - I asked him if it was feasible to set up a grievance board because they have requested that now on several occasions and I couldn't see any difficulties that this would cause to the government or to the Minister. In fact I believe it would perhaps help to resolve some of the minor prob lems that they're talking about in their brief.

I know also before the Labour Relations Committee they've talked about - with regards to appointments and promotions that they were quite concerned about, and they felt that some of these are based on seuiority and not on determined merit through competitive exams or however way it's done. Those were some real problems as far as they were concerned and they raised this question quite extensively and so perhaps the Minister can give us his expertise and see if this could not be accomplished. I asked the Minister also several questions in respect to contract employees and I didn't hear if he answered fully.

My question is how many people there are - if it was answered, then it's fine. I know last year there were around 1, 000 employees which was quite high; this year I see it's reduced, it's 700. So that was another concern that I know know the MGEA had about contract employees that they had no jurisdiction over. The point that I wish to ask the Minister about, the temporary appointments that's shown in the report. Does that mean the summer employment? The Minister did not answer that Friday. Because it is quite substantial, there's almost 6, 000 people.

If it's the program that we've been requesting the department to do, to take on extra help during the summer, or program their work within the departme nt so they can take extra empl0yees particularly students, university and high school students; if that's what it is, I have no argument, Mr. Chairman, no argument with that at all. But if it isn't, if that's not what it is, then I am concerned. As well I'm concerned with another factor, that there there were 3, 400 and fifty some resignations.

Is that from the permanent employment of Civil Service, from the permanent number, or does it also include these temporary employees? If it's the permanent Civil Service of 13,000 and we're getting 3, 000 resig nations each year, I think there's something wrong, it's quite a substantial number. But if the whole Civil Service is shown, including the temporary, then I wouldn't be con cerned. So that's the questions that I have. The other point is, the Minister has indicated that there were 2,100 promotions, and this holds well for the Civil Service if we're talking about the permanent staff.

I think it's a good indication, and I would be satisfied. The only other thing is, my col league has mentioned it and I mentioned it on Friday and asked the Minister, that I was quite concerned that there were only 28 out of some 13,000 civil servants who asked for educational leave or had an educational leave.

The thing that concerns me is if the Minister's really concerned about having a very able, and capable and good Civil Service, surely many of his people, out of 13,000, there must be some that would be requiring further education and some sabbatical leaves to further them, that's the only way that the Minister will build a very capable and able Civil Service and good staff; if they have no opportunity for any educational leave then there will be great difficulty for many of them to upgrade themselves.

There are some that probably the Minister would like to see in certain fields that are very capable and could have expertise in certain areas, that he would like those people to upgrade themselves, and with what the report indicates there's probably no such program within the Civil Service Department. Perhaps the Minister can look in that area. These are some of the points that I've raised the other day.

I don't know how many others I raised, but I'm sure maybe the Minister has some, but the point that I would like him to also answer is if the promotions and transfers are determined on merit after they write their exams or are they determined on the many years they've been employed on a seniority basis. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: First of all, Mr. Chairman, as you are aware, a number of the questions posed by the Honourable Member for Assiniboia were replied to prior to tonight, but I think in all due respect to my honourable friend I should refer to one or two of them.

March 22, 19 76 1395 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY cont'

d) First of all, insofar as the grievance board is concerned, during negotiations last year we had quite a thorough round of discussions on the setting up of grievance boards somewhat similar to those in private industry; it was agreed that we would pursue that and possibly during the negotiations about to commence that there may be some finality as to a due process. Of course, Mr.

Chairman, we have in essence a grievance, a pro cedure contained within the Civil Service Act at the present time, where if an employee feels aggrieved of treatment by a supervisor the grievance can be taken up in the first instance to I believe to the Deputy Minister, the Director of the Department, and then to the Deputy Minister; and then if the grievance isn't resolved there of course that's why we have Mr. Duncan and the Civil Service Commission.

So the provisions are there but they are not exactly the same, or in some cases not even similar to normal grievance proced ures in industry where you have stage one, stage two, stage three boards of arbi tration and the likes of that precisely with grievances. However there is a· semblance now and it is a matter that we are in agreement, will be pursued in the future. My honourable friend mentioned the question of promotion. Promotions are generally conducted in the Civil Service as they are externally, based principally on merit.

There is provision in the Civil Service Act where it should be based on the basis of merit, seniority should be taken into consideration, and there's a third one insofar as employment is concerned. I question whether it is any longer valid being a veteran of the First or Second or Crimean War. But there is a basis.

My honourable friend is perfectly correct when he indicates that there is a fair amount of discontent within the employees from time to time because Joe Blow got promoted and I didn't, and I'm sure that in the industry that my honourable friend is connected with he has given some better jobs to some of his employees who may not have been around quite as long as some others , and of course somebody's nose is out of joint; and it's no different I say to you in the Civil Service as it is in private industry and it's one of th ose things that you have from time to time, but we do try.

I will say that as far as the departments are con cerned, although I'm not directly involved, Mr. Chairman, with the internal functions of the departments in this area unless there are complaints, I would say that by and large the departments are fairly reasonable. My honourable friend asked the reason - he mentioned about contract employees , I mentioned there were about 700 dispersed around the various departments - why the increase in temporary employment in 1975? Actually it was an increase of about 200 over the previous year, the total number of appointments about 5, 975.

The figure includes about 1, 500 summer students, many of whom were able to continue their educa tion because of these jobs. I think in this particular area of student employment, Manitoba is to the forefront right across the country in providing jobs for summer students. My honourable friend mentioned the question of educational leave, why so few, 29 as compared with 39 the year before.

The fact of the matter is , as I indicated to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry and also I believe to the Member for Fort Rouge, is because we are expanding our internal training program through the Civil Service into the various departments to obviate the necessity of educational leave externally. We find it's more conducive to the education of our own employees and less costly to the public.

My honourable friend did mention the other day and posed the question about the current low morale in the Civil Service, and I just pose this question to him: How then can it be explained as a fact that there were almost 500 fewer resignations in 1975 than there were in 1974 ? The accusation is made as if the morale of the Civil Service is deteriorating, it's getting worse, and yet there were 500 less resignations in '75 over '74, I don't know what the indicator is at the present time.

My friend quite properly raises the question as to the statistically large number of separations and resignations in the public service even though there were less in '75 than '74, but this is historic in the Civil Service for some reason or other - what's it running at? About 9 to 10 percent - and this is an ongoing thing. I think a lot of students come out of school, come into the Civil Service, they're here for a little while and then go into other jobs or get married.

1396 March 22, 1976 SUPPL Y - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY con t' d) ••••• I guess we're a very attractive employer for young girls of 16 and 17 and 18 who have their eye on somebody else who is working in the Civil Service, and then in due course two becomes one , or one leaves the Civil Service. I think that is one of the reasons for the turno ver. But I doubt it very much whether the situation has deteriorated to any considerable degree, and as I indicated a lesser numb er of 500 for '7 5 over what there was in '7 4.

To me, that doesn't smack of low morale, because our employment level has remained fairly static over those two years. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think I made that accusation that morale was low. I said that there may be problems and there's some ripples within the Civil Service, and I said if the Minister can approach it with some since rity and enough con frontation perhaps we can resolve the small problems that there are in the Civil Service. I just have one more question this time.

Can the Minister indicate to me, because I've just had a couple of letters and I haven't checked on it, I know we had amendments to the Superann uation Act - the disability pen sion, is it after 10 years ser vice or is it after 15 years' service in Manitob a, because it used to be, unless we've amended the Ac t and it's 10, but it used to be 15 at one time. Has it been amen ded, that's what I'm asking? MR. PAULLEY: Yes , Mr. Chairman, in this area of very progressive govern ment, it's 10. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 29(a). The Honoura ble Member for Crescentwo od. MR. WARREN STEEN (Crescentw ood): Mr.

Chairman, I have a few short ques tions for the Mini ster. In his Estimates there, un der Civil Service Commission, it shows for the year 1977, 50 8, 70 0--(Interj ection)--for the coming year ending in '7 7. The year ending March '7 6 has 456, 600; for the next year it shows 508, 70 0. Right?

Down in the des cription it says , about the tail end of the se cond line, it says: "provides advice regard ing employment opportunities to the public." Then I go to page 5 of the Civil Service Commission, Administ ration of Civil Service Act report; he talks about, and it mentions in there, 351 classified ads were I guess purchased, and 768 display ads, then it goes on to say that there were 1, 538 job applicants ' applications bulletins I guess, and that must mean through the Civil Service.

Could he give me some ind ication of what type of money the province is spending in the way of classified ads and display ads? How much of that 50 8, 000 for the year coming, or the 456 is being spent in 1he way of advertising for Civil Servants ? Can I go on and ask a series of questions or would you prefer me to sit down after each and every one . --(Int erjection) --I have four. All right, that is Question One.

The second question I'd like to know is , that for the forthcoming year he is showing a decrease in the budget for salaries under 29(a), it's a very slight decrease, but is that because you're having a reduction in staff? I surely wouldn 't expect that you're paying people less. My third question is , that in the description that I mentioned and referred to earlier, it says the Career Planning Branch is responsible for design implementation and so on; yet under 29(

c) for this past year there shows nothin g under that particular item, Career Planning, and for this coming year he' s got 61, 000 in Salaries under (1) and under

(2) Other Expenditures, 8, 000. Perhaps he was answering this question when I came into the Chamber this evening, is this a new Career Department or is this one that's replacing one that you had before that is referred to in the print above ? That is Question Three. Question Four is referred to you, Mr, Minis ter, by the Member for As sini boia, speaking of resign ations. He mentioned I believe the figure 3, 456 which you said was less than the previous year, which is a good sign and I'm pleased to hear that. And I believe I heard you say that is about a 10 perce nt turnover within the Civil Service.

Does that mean that you've got 34, 000 Civil Servants ? Because I would think that that would mean a turnov er of somewhere in the neighbourhood of about 30 percent or 25 percent, in that area. Those are the four points that I'd like cleared up. MR. PAULLEY: Maybe it would be better for me to clear up the last one first, Mr. Chairman. When we talk about resignations , it's in total; it isn't related to the

March 22, 1976 1397 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• total Civil Service, which is approximately 13, 000. When we take the figure of the--(Interjection)--No, no. This is just the Civil Service under the responsibility of this Minister. But anyone who resigns , be they here for a month or two months, is considered as a resignation, but the total staff level remains between 12, 000 and 13, 000. So it would be improper really to say that the 3, 900 repre sents about 30 percent, taking that into consideration.

So on average it has been con sidered, and that's why I used the figure between 8 and 10 percent, trying to relate a level throughout the year, if I make myself clear to my honourable friend. Now then, I'm informed that the cost of advertising referred to by my honourable friend is contained in other Expenditures.

There's about $10, 000 related for advertising directly to the Civil Service, and then there 's departmental classified display advertising for the Civil Service or on behalf of the Civil Service - it goes through the Civil Service, let me put it that way , because every advertisement relates to applications going to the Civil Service. In total it amounts to about $60, 000 for advertising in the year. The Honourable Memberfor Crescentwood, Mr. Chairman, due to attention in the Estimates a lesser amount for salaries in appropriation l(a) . It's a reduction of around about $4, 000. 00.

The reason for that is--(Interjection)--Yes , I appreciate that. The reason for that is that part of the $61, 000 for Career Planning involves a young lady who is the co-ordinator of Career Planning who for a portion of the year was in the $387, 000 referred to last year and that went in, or goes into the new Career Pl anning. And the reason for the (

c) item of the about 61, 000 is because of the people - my honourable friend was not here, I referred to them - of the new staff that we have in Career Planning for the next fiscal year that were not in the Civil Service in the year that's just finishing off. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Crescentwood. MR. STEEN: One further question on that same point, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister.

The Career Planning Branch which you had in existence in the past, now you have a Career Planning se ction, if I understood you correctly, for new employees , so that these two will be sort of operated separately and that's why they're shown in your Estimates in two separate places ? MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: No, Mr. Chairman, because if my honourable friend takes a look at the total Estimates , last year the total Estimates for this appropriation (1) was about, let us say, $337 , 000, going up to 508, 000, reflects a new venture or a new pro gram of Career Pl anning.

If my honourable friend follows what I'm trying to get at. So we didn't have the establishment, or haven't got it precisely in this area, with the excep tion of the director, or co-ordinator as we call her, in Career Planning at the present time. But her coming out of the general operation of the Civil Service reflects the $4, 000 reduction in the actual operation of the Civil Service per se, with the exclusion of the Career Planning. That $4, 000 we'll find in the $61, 000 in Career Planning because of the transfer of that position into the new Career Pl anning area. MR. ST EEN: The reason, Mr.

Chairman, through you to the Minister, I was asking is that your Estimates are up $52, 000 in the top bracket from 456, 600 to 508, 70 0, and yet you've got a new item down below and one is up 52, 000, and then you've got a new item Salaries 61 and other Expenditures of 8, which gives you 69 , so you're up over 100, 000, and that's why my concern about the Career Planning. Well maybe I don't •• MR. PAULLEY: We're only up about 50 because you pointed out there that on Salaries (

a) we're down by about $4, 000, and that's where you were happy, because you saw that reduction it made you happy. Now the figures are such that you're unhappy be cause it reflects an increase. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 29(a). The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, we've been moving along fairly placidly this evening and just before we wind up consideration of this particular resolution and before we establish a dangerous precedent here, I want to just revert to one subject that has been debated at length in the last few days on these Es timates, and to which oblique reference was made a few moments ago when the Minister was responding to questions posed by the

1398 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CML SERVICE (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••••• Honourable Member for As siniboia, and the question of morale in the Civil Service was again referred to. I know the Minister is of the opinion that there is no difficulty in the area of morale and I know that he knows that I believe there is, and my colleagues believe there is, and that further that there seemed to be some support for that position expressed, or at least reported to have been expressed by the President of the MGEA the other day in the local newspapers. Now it's possible that Mr. Ridgeway was misquoted.

It's also possible that what he had to say was foreshortened but certainly what I took out of the remarks that were reported and carried in the newspapers was the sentiment that he essentially was agreeing with what members on this side of the House had said and that is, that there is a morale problem, there is anxiety, there is uncer tainty and discontent. I think that in a large

part it may stem from the grievance situation with which the Association demonstrably is unhappy. They have raised the question before the Industrial Relations Committee; they've raised it on frequent occasions in their bargaining procedures with the government; they've raised it formally and informally in discussion and conversation, and the Member for Assiniboia has referred to it, and I asked the Minister about it or made reference to it when we first opened consideration of these Estimates last Thursday.

The matter of grievance, the matter of appeal against decisions in the area of promotions, transfers, appointments, and that type of thing, and just where and how does the member or the MGEA, where and how does the Manitoba civil servant go to obtain the kind of appeal hearing that he or she would like to receive when they consider that they have a legitimate grievance.

There is evidence in the 58th Annual Report of the Commission and the administration of the Civil Service Act for the year ending December 31st, 1975, which is in possession of all members of this House, that appeals are piling upon appeals now in the Civil Service, that there have been many more than lodged in the past twelve month period than was the situation in the i=ediately preceding twelve month period, that many of them have been disposed of in a manner that I would think would have been unsatisfactory where the appellant was concerned because a great many of them have been denied.

So there is certainly something here that is troubling the Civil Service of our province. They are not finding available to them the open unfettered avenue of appeal and grievance procedure that they feel they're entitled to, and that I think many of us would agree they're entitled to. They' re not getting the hearings that they believe they should get, and that I think many of us believe that they should get. But notwithstanding that, why do they want those hearings in the first place, why are they making those appeals in the first place?

Why are there many more appeals being lodged at the present time than was the case a year previous? There must be a level of discontent, of uncertainty in the Civil Service that is giving rise to this sort of thing. As I've sug gested the comments reported the other day of the President would seem to bear that out.

So I think, Sir, without attempting to belabour the point or delay the Estimates on this resolution, and I sincerely don't intend to be doing that, I am still concerned though that there is that kind of a morale problem, that there is that kind of an under current of concern and discontent that this government is either not getting at or not appreciating, or simply not recognizing, simply refusing to acknowledge. I would like to leave that challenge with the Minister to respond to or to ignore as he sees fit.

But this is my feeling and I wanted to express it again for the record because it had come up in oblique reference a few minutes ago, as I say, and the impression left at that time I think was that the morale problem was not bad, was not of a serious nature, did not deserve any more examination than it had already been given. I don't want to leave that impression on the record, I think that it is serious, I think it does deserve much more attention, and I think the Minister faces a pretty substantial challenge there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: I don' t know, Mr.

Chairman, whether the Minister is bragging or not but he never evades a challenge, and I have no intention of evading any challenge at the present time from any of my friends in this Committee. There is no question of doubt that statistically there was almost, or a little better than double of the number of appeals entered into in 1975, over 1974. There's no doubt.

March 22 , 1976 1399 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) ••••• The figures show it for themselves that that was the case. My honourable friend however at one stage in debate when we were talking of morale - it was not he, it was the Member for Lakeside this afternoon was talking about the militancy of the Civil Service. He referred back to a couple of years ago when there was demonstrations galore on the steps, although he didn't refer precisely to the demonstration, but the fact that there were demonstrations.

The Honourable Member for Lakeside mentioned that at that par ticular time it appeared as though there could be an invasion into the right of representation by CUPE as against the Manitoba Government Employees Asso ciation. I suggest, and I'm not try ing to duck the issue at all but trying to face it realistically, that that to me is evidenc e of a change of approach and involvement of the Employee Association. Why is it, Mr. Chairman, and it's not an aside, but it' s the situation that's on us today, why are there more strikes in industry now than there was , say, two or three years ago.

I suggest it's because of a greater militancy of the employees, a greater desire to be heard. I think that was very evident today with what happened on Parliament Hill, where my honourable friend once sat. And this is uni versal. Now I'm not suggesting when I say that that the Manitoba Government Employees Asso ciation is wont to strike or to cause upheavals, but I think that it can be said with reason able justification that one of the reasons for the increases in appeals is a change in attitude of the employees, not only in the Civil Service but in industry as a whole.

And I really don't think I need tell you, Mr. Chairman, that as Minister of Labour as against the Minister responsible for the Civil Service I am finding this more evident every day. There's another factor. There's another factor that I think accounts for the increase in the number of appeals, that there is a reco gnition that appeals will be heard to a greater degree now than ever before. And they are being heard. So I think that in all fairnes s, that we have to take these factors into consideration. We only had 80 appeals in '7 4, 17 0 in '75.

And there is no question of doubt in my mind that the members of the Civil Service haven't really changed all that much insofar as morale is concerned on an individual basis but they feel now possibly as the confrontations that existed two years ago, and what were referred to by the Member for Lakeside, with other organizations, that in order to show their worth and to earn their salt - and I'm thinking primarily of the organization itself now - more appeals must be made to the appeal body, the Civil Service Commission under the Chairmanship of Chris Hubert.

I think that goes a long way to answering the points raised by my honourable friend from Fort Garry. His questions are quite legitimate and statistically right and true. But I think, Mr . Chairman, that just taking a look at the figures themselves is not sufficient. We have to take into consideration attitudes that are prevailing today which were not prevail ing before.

Ther e's another factor too, and another factor too that I suggest could con ceivably be as a reason for appeals, is that within the departments themselves the direc tors of the departments are informing their employees to a greater degree than ever before of their rights of appeal of decisions and the employee is taking that cours e, and I for one would not fault them at all.

Because we have said, and I have said, and I'm not trying to brag about this at all, I have said, as a matter of fact I have issued guide lines to directors of personnel, under no circumstances will we tolerate dictatorial atti tudes to employees by superiors and it is an onus on the employing authority, which are the Ministers, the Deputy Ministers and others, it is an onus on the responsibility of the employing authority to let the employees know what their rights are.

Now fault me, after having been Minister responsible for the Civil Service since 1969, when we became government, fault me for not having done that before, but I am sure that one of the answers at least to my honourable friend is the fact that the employe es are more know ledgeable of their right to appeal than they ever were before; and secondly, that the employees of the government in the public service are basically no different than employees generally, not only across the province, the nation, but the whole industrial world. I don't know if I've satisfied my honourable friend or not.

I only attempt in reply to him without rancour to try and indicate what I feel can be, and is , an answer to the very important point that he raised insofar as comparative statistics are concerned . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 29(a) --pass; 29(

b) Other Expenditures--pass; (

c) Career Planning, Salaries (1) --pass; Other Expenditures (2) --pass. Resolution 29 , resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $50 8,70 0 for Civil

1400 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. CHAIRMAN cont' d) ••••• Service--pass. Resolution 30, Civil Service Benefit Plans , Civil Service Superann uation Act, $2 ,1 50 , 000--pass. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Just one question on this item, Mr. Chairman.

In the 36th Annual Report of the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Fund on page 14, which is the last printed page in the report, the statistics are given on payments and contributions under the Civil Service Superannuation Fund for the year ended December 31, 1974; the employers' payments and contributions are shown at $2. 3 million, the employees' payments and contributions are shown at $11 million plus a fraction, for a total in the fund of $13. 4 million. I'm sure that there is a reasonable statistical explanation, but to the un practiced eye, Mr.

Chairman, it would appear that there is a pretty substantial discrepancy between the sum that has been contributed by the employees which totals in excess of $11 million, and the sum which has been contributed to date by the employers which totals just $2. 3 million. Now I'd appreciate the Minis ter's explanation on that point . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honoura ble Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, the reason for the difference in the figures is , that under the setup of the Civil Service Superann uation Fund the employer contribution just comes into effect on retirement of the employee.

I have the General Manager , Mr. Worosz, coming in now, and he can correct me if I'm wrong. The figure of the employers' payments and contributions , the two million three, represents the expenditure by government for outlay for pensions . Is that correct? --(Interj ection) --That represents , Mr. Chairman, I think I was pretty well on track, that represents half of the pension which is paid by the employer, or the Province of Manito ba, on retirement , the other half comes out of the employees ' contributions; and the difference is that the employees' amount is related to the percentage of earnings each year,

whereas the employers' share is a guaran tee for the life of the pension . I believe that's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resol ution 30(a). The Honourable Member for Crescentw ood. MR. STEEN: I think, Mr. Chairman , what the Mini ster was trying to refer to is what we in the private pension busines s refer to as Money Purchase Pension Plan, meaning that the employer puts in the contribution when it's needed at the end of the life span and that the figure of 2. 3 million is likely the figure that is required to look after the pensions that are going to be paid out in this calendar or fiscal year.

The employee pays a regular amount all the way through his career, but managem ent only puts in their dollars when they have to face up to the pension to be paid out, and that is called in the private world as the Money Purchased Pension Plan which in my opini on, for a govern ment , is smart pension purchasing. I think that's what you were trying to get across . Am I correct? Can I carry on and ask a few questions ? Und er Item 30, Civil Service Pensi on Benefit Plans , I noticed that under (

a) Civil Service Superannuation Act, that the incre ase this year is up approximately 30 percent, or half-a-million dollars . Maybe the Minister can answer that. Is this because of more people reaching retirement age, therefore the gove rnme nt has greater input ? And under (

b) the Canada Pension Plan, the amount is up substantially, about 25 percent, and this could be tied in with (

a) if you have more people reaching retirement age in this coming year than you have in the past. Maybe the Mini ster might want to comment on (

a) and (b). MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Mini ster of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: The answer is, Mr.

Chairman - and I appreciate my adviser, I'm sure my honourable friend the Member for Crescentwood will realize that they may not have without assistance all of the answers - parts of the increase of about a half-a million dollars are in the relative figures due to salary basis on which the 6 percent employee contribution is arrived at, plus the fact that last year we had an inc reased numb er of early retirements which reflects that as well, if that answer my honourable friends basic question on (a). --(In terjection) --Yes , basically it would be the same although I believe that there was some adjustment made in the Canada Pension contribu tions, were there not ?

The ceiling was in creased which results in the incr eased figure, so on that one I'm inf ormed that I was correct. MR. STEEN: Mr. Chairman , under item (

c) Civil Service Group Insuranc e, am

March 22, 1976 1401 SUPPLY - CIVIL SERVICE (MR� STEEN cont'd) ••••• I correct, Mr. Minister, in assuming that the group insur ance is carried by a private carr ier, it's not self insurance? And if so, with a rate increase or a contribution on behalf of the employer going from 400, 000 to 600, 000, does that come within the guidelines? MR. PAULLEY: The Group Insurance first of all is carried by a private corpora tion, I believe it's Canada Life if memory serves me correct ly , is that right? Canada life.

One of the reasons for the increase is that a new deal was negotiated for increased benefits for Civil Service I believe last Spring which will have a reflection on the cost of the next ensuing year. And I may say if memory also serves me correc tly, in the con tract it was entered into with Canada Life there is a clause there whereby we can have a reassessment in a shorter period than the three years that prevailed before. MR. STEEN: Therefore Mr. Chairman, the sharp increase is not because their rates jumped, it's because the benefit package that they're providing you has been enhanced.

Their benefits package has been enhanced, that's why the great increase, it's not that their rates all of a sudden jumped, and therefore I wondered if it would meet the guidelines set by the new Federal Government Price and Wage Control thing. MR. PAULLEY: First of all, I would say to my honourable friend the contract was entered into before the new guidelines were brought into effect, that is , even before Thanksgiving Day. The rates chargeable by the insurer were reduced; the rates were reduced, but the value to the beneficiary was increased. Also,

whereas previously I believe the maximum that anyone could be entitled to receive life insurance for was twice their annual income, it is now three times, with a relative increase of course in pr emiums. But in essence the rates went down, the coverage increased, with a maximum of 50 , 000. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. We're dealing with the Civil Service Super annuation Act, and according to our rules we're supposed to keep down to the item and--(Interjection)--Well, I haven't passed (

a) yet, can I pass (

a) Civil Service Super annuation Act? MR� STEEN: My apology, Mr. Chairman, I thought we could go through the whole five items and get it over with. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)--pass; (

b) the Canada Pension Plan--pass. The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister explain - on the Canada Pension Plan there was 2. 5 million last year as compared to 3. 4 which is a substantial increase, and I'm sure there must be a reason for it. Can the Minister explain? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Yes. Mr.

Chairman, I explained it to the Honourable Member for Cresce ntwood, but I will repeat it for my honourable friend whom I admire very very much, that due to action at the federal level the ceiling on contributions to the Canada Pension Pl an was increased which resulted in the requirement of a greater provision in the Estimates for next year. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)--pass; (c) --pass; (

d) Workers' Compensation Board--pass; Unemployment Insurance Plan, the government share ••• The Honourable Member for Cres centwood. MR. STEEN: Just one short question to the Minister, Mr. Chairman. The sharp increase in the Unemployment Insurance Pl an costs to the government, does the same answer apply to it as it did in the Canada Pension Plan; that the benefits scale has been increased, therefore the pr emiums have increased, therefore management or the employer's portion is away up as well . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, my Honourable Friend from Cresce ntwood is quite correct, there were adjustments made insofar as Unemployment Insurance, greater coverage to the employee with a subsequent increase in payments by the employee and the empl oyer, and that is reflected in the increase of - oh, it's just over a million dollars . It's some considerable sum , but that is what is reflected in the increase. · MR. CHA ffiMAN: Resolution 30 (e) --pass. Resolution 30 , resolved that there be

1402 March 22, 1976 SUPP L Y - CIVIL SERVICE (MR. CHAffiMAN cont'd) ••••• granted to Her Majesty the sum not exceeding $11, 195 ,3 00 to Civil Service--pass. That completes the department. Committee rise. Mr. Speaker, your Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, reports progress, and asks leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR; A. R. (Pete) ADA.M (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Member for Thompson that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR.

GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm just waiting for the other Committee to finalize their work. I don't know if you are in the habit of receiving another report from them, or- -(Interjection)--well then I think you can adjourn the House. I would call it ten o' clock. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hour of adjournment having arrived, the House is adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:3 0 p.m . tomorrow afternoon. (Tuesday).

March 22, 19 76 1403 SUPPL Y - CONSUMER, CORPORATE AND INTERNAL SERVICES MR. CH AffiMAN: Order pleas e. We have a quorum gentlemen. The committee will come to orde r. I would refer members to Page 16 in their Estimates Book, Con sumer, Cor porate and Internal Services. Resolution 36(a )(1) . The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR . WILSON: Mr. Chairman, I wondered if under this

section you could direct me, I realize it probably should have been ·under the Minister 's compensation and we should come back to it except the remarks that I have to say basically do cover - well it's called Consumer , Corporate and Internal Services, and I feel ·under this

section that I really gave it some thoug ht pertaining to this particular section, but also encompassing the whole re sponsibility of which the Minister is res ponsible for. And I couldn't help but start thinking of when this department first came into being under probably our adminis tration and since the Minister has taken over, where we are going in this depar tment, and I had wanted the Minister to • • • MR . C HAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I wouldn't want the member to get off the track here .

This administration was set up under this government, not under the previous one. That's the point you 're making. MR . WILSON: Well, yes and I'm glad you said that because this is exactly my point. What I was saying is that it seems that having watched television Sunday night and having thought about it all weekend, I've come to the conclusion that I think that this particular department was a luxury of good times.

And I think now that we've fallen on hard times and a time of re straint , I think it's incumbent upon this government to turn around and look with the advent of legal aid, and with the advent of a number of situations, that maybe this department has outgrown its usefulness in some areas and should be severely curtailed . And I think particularly in the area, when I think of watching how the hospitals are closing and how education suffers, we foolishly seem to spend, and I've got the figures here , you can correct me if I'm wrong, it says 6.8 million ••• MR . CHAffiMAN: Order please . Order please .

Would the honourable member direct his remarks to the Resolution, 36 Consumers ' Bureau . If he has remarks to make on the department in general he can make them when we come back to the Minister's Salary at the end. MR . WILSON: Fine. Yes . MR . CHA ffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. GREE N: On a point of ord er . It's in Ontario that the hospitals are closing. There 's no hospitals closed in the Province of Manitoba. I thought we were discus sing our Es timates . MR . CH AffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley . MR . WILSON: I am -i n correc tion, Mr .

Ch airman, I'm talking about the fact that I feel sincerely, I feel that this department has to be curtailed in light of the times that we're in. However, I will stick to the Consumers ' Bureau . Under the Consumer Protection Act - I didn't get the answer from you the other day whether we could talk about the entire structure of this particular department which came under these three sections which was not the legal

interpretation, but possibly the

interpretation as to how I see the department, and whethe r we are indeed getting value for our money under Salaries, 490, 000, and under Expenditures for a total of whatever, 65 5,9 00. I referred in specific to letters that I've received in ••• to Mrs . Gillies'

article in the paper where we talked about warranties and things under the Consumer Protection Act, and particularly when I brought out questions about how all these Acts that have been put through seem to be of a very vague nature and subject to the inter pretation of civil servants . I wondered, as one of the Ministers pointed out today, whethe r we're getting the advice that we need in some of these sections because obviously there's many vague terms in them . I wanted to particularly point out that I notice that the Minister under what we could call The Landlord and Tenant Act, had in the provisions of the 1970 bill, before my time, in Bill 139, under

Section 121 of the Rent Review Proc ess , had actually in that particular Act allowed for complaints under the Landlord and Tenant Act, and especially under rental increases and that, he made provisions so that he could deal

1404 March 22, 19 76 SUP PLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SE RVICES (MR . WILSON cont1d) ••••• with them, And here he has been for two yea rs, as people have been complaining under the Landlord and Tenant Act and under other things about how rents are going up, and here under

Section 121 there 's a provision for him to deal with the complaints and he never dealt with them. Now he 's come forward with another bill called Bill 19 , which is I agree tremendously differen t, but the solution to rental increases was written right into this Bill 139 . And that again, I'm pointing out to the Minister, I feel is a particular problem for him to deal with, Under the Pers onal Inve stigations Act I notice that a person cannot --(Interjection)- Well that was the area, of course, where you wouldn't allow me to deal with the two to gether , Pers onal investigations was reports that came in under your name,

whereas the Personal Investigations Act, that

Chapter was P33, but under the Personal Investigations Act, which was 55, Bill 61 , I couldn't deal with those two together because it was fel t that they were irrelevant, but I say that they very much fall upon one another , And again I point to obviously the ambiguity of these particular Acts in which the government seems to be the godfather in the case and tells a person that he cannot be a private in vestigator as well as doing other occupations. And I question as to the right of govern ment to tell people how they can make a living, And with that , Mr .

Chairman, I'm going to leave it because most of my remarks are under the entire umbrella. I do feel that this particular department has served its usefu lness in affluent times and now that we're on hard times we should look at cutting it, MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 36 . The Honourable Minister. MR . TURNBULL: Mr.

Ch airman, really I find it incredible that any member of the Legislature who has a re sponsible position to fill in the political system of the society can regard legislation which is designed to protect the ordinary person in the matter of certain consumer transactions, to be legislation that is not serving a worth while purpose. Ev ery day the Consumers ' Bureau deals with complaints, with problems that consumers have , that ordinary wage earners have in the marketplace, and to suggest that they are not getting well served by this administration, I think is just ridiculous .

The ludic rousness of the remarks just made really I can focus on by referring to the remarks the member made with regard to Se ction 121 of the Landlord and Tenant Act. That section, Mr. Ch airman, contains no provision, no legal statutory provision for the control of rent increas es, What it does provide for is a rather ineff ective re view of the rental situation, In other words, what it does allow is for the offi ce of the Rentalsman to request of landlords that they provide certain information with regard to rents .

That's all that's provided there although it could have been used, it was in fact in practice used by me as early as May 197 4 when I asked various landlords in the city, in the provin ce , to come in and provide certain information, What that provision pro vides for can be achieved without the invocation of the actual section, And I think that with regard to his reference to Bill 19, that Bill 19 deals with an incipient and existing problem in the marketplace with regard to rental accommodations, and goes much much further and provides the government with much stronger statutory provisions than

Section 12 1 of the Landlord and Tenant Act ever did. I think that if one can cite various remarks that have been made to me, there are letters that I have received from people in the community, both consumers , and businessmen, to the effect that the offi ce of the Rentalsman and the staff there and the offi ce of the Consumers' Bureau and the staff there have in fact done an excellent job, I think if you'll check with members in the business community you'll find that many of them do agree , MR . CHA IRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, MR . WILSON: I'd like to respond to that, first of all, by saying that this

chapter in , •• says, "The Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council may make regulations, rul es, procedures and guidelines ," That seems to me very clear, I'l l leave it at that , it's past history, but I do feel there was provision, and the Minister has never proven it to me in any letter or any reports. I noticed last year where he promised, I believe it was the Member for As siniboia, to give a report, or was it the Member for Portage la Prairie, in Hansard , where he promised to supply him with information as to what his department was doing, how many complaints they received, how many convictions,

March 22, 1976 1405 SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR. WILSON cont'd) ••••• so on and so forth. There apparently was supposed to be something, a sessi onal paper, available on that. I will be looking for that in the future . I did want to say that I felt by strengthening the Ombudsman Department, by allowing a little more emphasis in that department, combined with the courts that we have, you have

summary convictions. you combine licensing, regulation and control; if need be you go into a Professional Society's Act, and you even have

summary convictions through out the courts, which would mean that we would, according to this budget - which will be explained to me in detail - we're talking about a couple of million dollars . We possibly could save $500, 000 just by • • • and then combined with that, we are talking ahout dupli cating federal services ; we're talking about going into trade practices, we talk about another Mrs . Plumtre in Manitoba here .

I say that we should have inspectors or a clearing house where we could turn around and help the citizens of this province, direct them into the federal departments where we could get the clout and that's where the money is • they've got the . big pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The Federal Government has the programs in place , they have the civil servants, let's use them . Let's not incur more taxpayers' dollars in new programs . We are completely protected, we are over-protected.

You know, I would really like to see some figures and some perc entages because I know so many people - and it's referred to in last year's Hansard and it's more so this year - people are using the Consumer and Corporate Department, pro fess ional debt dodgers, people who are using your department to go against the corporate structure of this city, the private sector, and yet the private secto.r never loses money, they pass that cost on to the consumer. It's the same as when you turned around and removed sections out of this Act, you turned around and what happened ?

Every person that owns an apartment block runs it as a busines s. We heard that this afternoon, they've got a balance sheet, and what do they do ? If they have five or six people skip out and don't pay their rent, they've got a balance sheet, that means up goes the rental increase and the good tenants pay for the bad. The same thing is people that use your complaint system and your pres sure system to turn around and avoid paying just obligations.

And I've even seen some articles in the media applauding the fact that you are now going to be able to use your department, and failing your department, they can then be referred to legal aid. What you people are basically doing, from the man on the street that I'm talking to is , if he can't get satisfaction from you, you're right there to refer him to an agent for legal aid, all at the taxpayers' expense to help somebody avoid paying a just obligation. There doesn't seem to be any use for the courts the way you people are going about it.

And I really-respect the fact that I pointed out, and I should repeat them again, but we have all these safeguards, we have the

summary convictions, we have the fact that people respond, we have licensing regulation and control, which is no better. • • and plus strengthening the Ombudsman Department and I don't see any effort on the lawyer to curtail legal aid, so you've got all those lawyers willing to take the private sector to court if they make a mistake. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 36 . The Honourable Minister . MR . TURNBULL: I don't suppose there 's much point in carrying on the debate with the member.

He does display complete ignorance of the Constitution and the division of powers between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government. The province is responsible for certain matters with regard to property and civil rights and the Con sumer Protection Act and the Landlord and Tenant Act passed under that general consti tutional ambit. If he thinks that the Federal Government can get involved in those fields , then I suggest that he look again at the Constitution and try to come to some understand ing of it. MR. CH AIRMAN: Resolution 36( a)(1)-- pass; (a)(2)-- pass; (a)--p ass; Resolution 36 (b)( 1) .

The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR . GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): There's quite an increase in there. Wha t is the increase in salaries, that's quite a large amount? MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. TURNBULL: The increase of $45, 300 to $49, 500, as I understand it, is

1406 March 22, 19 76 SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR . TURNBULL cont'd) ••••• the increase that is required to cover the increase negotiated by the MGEA , Basica lly that's it, it's an allowance for that increase that would normally occur. This amount, this increase, this kind of increase occurs in every salaries' appropriation right through the whole Estimates Book, MR . HENDERSON: What are yo u really doing in research though ? This is what I was wondering, what are you doing in that department ? MR .

TURNBULL: Well there are two people there, Their basic purpose is to provide baseline data for consumer problems . MR . HENDERSON: Or just to be trouble-sh ooters as you call them, right? Or is it research ? MR, TURNBULL: No, I wouldn't call them trouble-shooters exactly, Their objective is to collect data on emerging consumer problems , and basically what they do is get together basic data and bring together information that other departments have collected. MR . HENDERSON: How about the Better Business Bureau nowadays ? Do you work pretty much in conjunction with them in some of your actions? MR .

TURNBULL: I think that to the extent that working with the EBB is possi ble there is good co-operation. Certainly I emphasize with the staff of the department that they work as closely as can be possible with both the EBB, the Federal Government and other agencies that are involved in consumer protection. MR . HENDERSON: Would you know if the EBB is doing much work now since the Consumer Bureau is doing more or has their work load been cut down? MR .

TURNBULL: The interesting thing of course is that, if I recall offhand the statistics, the interesting thing is that the statistics in terms of numbers of com plaints dealt with by the EBB, the Federal agency here and our own department, these statistics have increased with each of them. There has been a remarkable increase in the number of complaints , which I suppose one could find diff erent reasons depending on whether you believe in consumer protection or whether you do not believe in consumer protection.

Unlike the Member for Wolseley I believe in the need for consumer protection therefore , I'm inclined to think that the increase in number of complaints that are received by the EBB, the Federal Consumer Affair s Department and the Provincial Con sumer Affairs Department, reflect the increasing number of problems that consumers are encountering in the marketplace, that that 's the root cause of this increase in statistics • And then of course , you know, we have gone through a period of unbelievable prosperity and people just buy more goods , so that the very turnover of money for the purchase of go ods may result in some increase in problems .

MR . OSLAND: More of an awareness . MR . TURNBULL: That's right, A MEMBER: Interesting speech. MR. HENDERSON: The honourable member says there's more of an awareness. I don't know whether there is or not. I would think that there's probably less of an awareness on the part of the consumer that's why you have so many troubles later . I think probably it's the other way round, MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR . WILSON: Mr .

Chairman, under the Research and Planning he talked about an awareness, and I did object to the remark that he said I was not interested in con sumer protection, I said I was interested in consumer protection for the unwary, elderly, sick and mentally retarded, and people who need consumer protection. And I say that if he had research and planning, if he did not hire political appointments and political friends of the family , that if he hired some knowledgeable people in consumer law, then maybe we could turn around and ferret out these people.

We could ferret out these people who are turning around and using the bureau. Let's get down to some figures . You give me some samples. I know people that are elderly, mentally retarded, that the Better Business Bureau and yourself have helped them. That is to be congratulated, and that I support. I'm saying that I heard somebody mention you got 22, 000 phone calls, 22, 000 phone calls , or was it 19, 000 , I would like to see that report that the Member

March 22, 1976 1407 SUPPL Y - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR. WILSON cont'd) ••••• for As siniboia asked for last year. Did the Minister ever supply it? To take an example • • • MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I try to avoid repetition even though it might be for the benefit of the Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Your insulting remarks are not going to help the debate because I haven't yet ••• Mr. Ch airman, I think I have the fl oor. MR. CH AffiMAN : Order please . Order please. Order please. Order please. Order please . The Chair recognizes the Honourable Minister. MR. TURNBULL: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Wolseley has just made what I regard to be one of his usual slanderous remarks against the staff : of the Consumers' Bureau, the Companies Branch, the office of the Rentalsman, the Public Utilities Board, and every branch of this department, including people, Mr. Ch airman, who have been employed by the Govermnent of Manitoba through three diff erent administrations. I might say four , the Campbell administration • • • MR. CHAmMAN : Order please. MR. TURNBULL: ••• the Roblin administration, the Weir administra tion, and the Schreyer administration.

And to level charges of friends of the family of those people I think is, well it's unbecoming, even the Member for Wolseley. I can say, Mr. Ch airman, that the report - this is the point of repetition that I was trying to avoid - the point with regard to the Annual Report was made by me at the first meeting of this committee to consider the Consumers' Bureau. That report is in its final draft stage.

I had anticipated that my Estimates would be coming up about a month from now rather than now when the Conservative Party, I'm told, wanted these Es timates before them, theref ore, I don't have the report yet printed. But I did say, I think it was on Friday when we first met, that that report is in the process of being prepared, and it will be before the member shortly. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Pass, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAffiMAN : The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. LES OS LAND (Churchill): I just wanted to clarify that one thing.

When I mentioned the word awareness, the fact that we have a TV program now that a lot of women, and men actually watch too, with regard to good buying in the marketplace, and I think there is an awareness amongst the people now that there is a place to turn and that's why I think there's such things as more activity over on the BBB side, on the federal level and also with your department. At one time you had nowhere to turn really, and now I think they know that there is somewhere to turn and there's a lot of questions being asked. I think that's darn good. MR.

CH AffiMAN : Resolution 36( b)(l) --pass; (b)(2)-- pass; (b)--pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $655, 900 for Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services --pass. Resolution ••• MR. TURNBULL: I want the record to show, Mr . Ch airman, that the Member for Wolseley is voting against the appropriation for Consumer Protection. MR. CHAffiMAN : Resolution 37 - Manitoba Gazette (

a) Salaries -- pass. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDE RSON: ••• that I wonder how you keep that staff on that small amount of salaries. It just happens to be one of the odd ones , because it's so irregular to see this. You must have a fair staff on that. MR. CHAffiMAN : The Honourable Minister . MR. TURNBULL: Well there are two people only in the operation that produces the Manitoba Gazette and they obviously do their work efficiently . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: I wonder if the Minister might care to answer in a more civil way of explaining this .

Do you turn around and • • • MR. TURNBULL: Ask a civil question and you get a civil answer. MR. WILSON: In this particular department, do the revenues show up here? I mean are you telling me that $1 3, 100 is your entire salary structure, you have two people working there for $13 , 000 or do you deduct the money • • • ? What's the revenue

1408 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND COR PORATE SERVICES (MR. WILSON cont'd) ••••• side of this department? Obviously you charge to put

article s into the Gazette . Maybe you could give me the total salary and then maybe the total revenue . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. TURNBULL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. The revenue side of these things is normally discussed during the Budget, I think, and it does go into Con soli dated Revenue . Is that satisfactory now ? I'd like to !mow if the member feels that's satisfactory? MR . WILSON: You told me two employe es on salary . Is this the entire staff on salar ies ? growth. MR. TURNBULL: That's it for the Manitoba Gazette, yes. MR. WILSON: Right. MR .

TURNBULL: There were two in 1975-76 and two in 1976-77 for a zero MR. WILSON: Okay. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR . HENDERSON: ••• I understand you to say that this other expenditure is another necessary expense in connection with this department, but the money you take in goes into the Consolida ted Revenue • • • MR . TURNBULL: Consol idated Re venue, yes. MR. HENDERSON: ••• and doesn't show up in this department anymore ? MR. TURNBULL: No. I don't think it ever .did. It goes into Consolida ted, I know that, but I don't think it ever showed up.

Not while I've been the Minister here anyway. Unlike the Queen's Printer which is a zero balan ce. MR . HENDERSON: It's okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 37(a)--pass; (b)--pass. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye • MR. BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could explain that $48 , 000.0 0. Does this incl ude the mailing costs as well as the publication costs of the Manitoba Gazette? MR. TURNBULL: It does not include postage but I gather it inclu des just about everything else . Well it must incl ude everything else, except postage. This operation breaks even, a little bit better than break even. MR.

BANMAN: How many people would be subscribing, or how many copies would be printed of the Manitoba Gazette now ? MR . TURNBULL: I'l l try to get that for you . MR. BANMAN: And does this figure then include the postage on that too ? MR. TURNBULL: I'm told that there's 1, 500 copies of the Gazette sent out and as I said, it does not include postage. MR. BANMAN: Who would pay for the postage then? MR. TURNBULL: It's all paid by Public Works. MR. BANMAN: You mean on • • • MR. TURNBULL: All government postage is paid by Public Works. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pemb ina. MR.

HENDERSON: You're on 38 now are you ? MR . CHAIRMAN: No. 37 (b). MR. HENDERSON: Well I'll wait until 38 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 37 (b)--pass; Res olution 37. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $61 ,8 00 for Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services--Pass. Resolut ion 38, Securities Commission. (a)-Sal aries. The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. HENDERSON: In connection with this department I !mow there's a fairly large fee charged for every real estate broker and everybody has to be registered, and all this.

I'm not saying that you aren't right in having your recording procedures the way you have, but I'd often like to !mow just like how much goes into the Consolida ted Fund from this department, from the Securities Commission. Would you have that figure? Because it seems like all these fees have gone up and more and more people have to be

March 22, 1976 1409 SUPPL Y - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR . HENDERSON cont'd) ••••• registered and I was just wondering how much do you get out of it . MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR . TURNBULL: The revenue from this operation, that is the Securities Com mission, including the operation of the Securities Commission with regard to the Securities Act and The Real Estate Acts, the Mortgage and Brokers, the Mortgage Dealers Act, is about $18 5, 000, and that's proje cted. That's a projection, not an actual. MR . HENDERSON: $1 85, 000 in revenue? MR . TURNBULL: Yes . MR.

HENDE RSON: And yet your salaries is 301, 400. I just find this a little bit odd really, but maybe it's .like I think it should almost balance out, I would think so, prise. MR . TURNBULL: Be self-supporting, MR . HENDERSON: ••• be self-supporting but it's not, MR. TURNBULL: Not quite. MR . HENDERSON: Well you said 184 • • • MR . TURNBULL: Yes , MR . HENDERSON: So it's not, not even, just about half ? Well that's a sur- MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley . MR . WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, under this Securities Co mmission I realize the responsibility of the Securities Commission is to regulate securities trading and traders within the Province of Manitoba, I was wondering if the information that I have is cor rect, that you have 15 full-time and 4 part -time emplo yees, and that would probably explain the $30 1, 00 0. 00. One of the things that I would rather like to see come out of the eA. '}landing de partment is an annual report. It says here there's no provision for an annual report from the Commission, and they told me they dealt with something like 200 prospectus .

I guess that would probably be one similar to this one that the government put aut, a Manitoba Hydro El ectric Board prospectus where I got the information that this province was in debt $2 o8 billion, and I was called certain names in the Hou se.

However, what I wanted to say was that it seems that if we had an annual report we might get down to a gut feeling that we're getting value for our money in this department, What I'm con cerned with is that I notice that one particular Manitoba stock that deals in small ap pliances, and what have you, went from about a $30 ,0 0 to $5 0,0 0 stock down to $1 6,0 0 to $18 ,0 0, and maybe down as low as what have you .

When people started complaining of this Winnipeg firm and trying to investigate it, they found out that it really wasn't a Winnipeg firm that their corporate head office and their books were kept in Minneapolis And I think this is the type of thing that your Securities Commission should be protecting the public about.

In my experience that I've had, which goes back to the Bank of Western Canada days , I had some limited experience with them and it was felt that a lot of this particular information could have been acquired from the Ontario Cl earance Houses, and what have you, but I have found that most of the complaints that I heard about coming in this particular department were over the counter stocks in Vancouver and Toronto, and I wondered - buyer beware , I'm just wondering if we're not doing some tremendous amount of work for - I think there should maybe be a residency clause or something be cause it seems to me that if we 're going to have very expensive staff go to a lot a trouble to find out about over the counter stock in Vancouver, that's been promoted across Canada then really we're going into a great deal of expense and the fellow may not necessarily be a resident of Manitoba and I think that there should be possibly, if we 're going to spend all this money to search out a poor investment on his part, that maybe we should be looking at some sort of a guideline as to who these people help .

MR. CH AIRMAN: Resol ution 38 (a)--pass; Resolution 38( b) . The Honourable Member for La Verendrye, MR. BANMAN: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, through you to the Minister. Awhile back we spoke about, I think in the last year we mentioned the government was anticipating setting up a clearing house for chattel mortgages and conditional sales contracts. I

1410 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR . BANMAN cont'd) ••••• wonder if that falls unde r the Minister's portfolio or would it fall unde r the Attorney-General's jurisdiction? MR. TURNBULL: Yes. I think you're referring there to the properties, Personal Properties Securities Act and that's under the AG's Department. MR . BANMAN: Has the Minister had some representation from people who have had trouble with goods that have been sold through chattels and conditional sales agreements ? MR. TURNBULL: That would normally be under the Personal Properties Securities Act.

Not that I can recall in the last 12 months. MR. BANMAN: So this would come under the Attorney-General's Department and he would be looldng after it. MR. TURNBULL: The Exec utive Administrative Act is the responsibility of the Attorney-General, yes. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. C HAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley . MR.

WILSON: It seems to me that there was many talks in past years that possibly due to the fact credit was being made so easy that a lot of these notes, chattel mortgages and liens should be - that is the type of protection that goes a two-way flow and if you 're going to continue on with this huge administration and program here, I think you should be protecting both sides of the fence, and I'd like to see the day come when you turn around and register lien notes, have some way that a person could register lien notes as well as chattel mortgages.

And under this Lien Note Act here it also tells certain people selling products that they should have a stamp or a stencil or so;nething to identify their goods. And I'd like to see your department work with the AG's De partment to see that some time in the future that lien notes are registered. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolut ion 38 (b)--pass. Resolu tion 38. Resolve d that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $341, 500 for Consumer, Corporate and Internal Services--pass. Resolution 39, Public Information Services. (

a) Salari es. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON : I must say I'm glad to see you've cut this one down because I believe no matter which government's in power that that's just a propaganda agency whichever government's in power. And I see the publications that come out, there's so much duplication and so much repetition it just really makes you think that it's a propaganda agency for • • MR. TURNBULL: Which publication agency are you talking about ? MR.

HENDERSON: In the Information Services. --(Interjection)-- Yes, the ones that are mailed out and all the ones I imagine that appear in the paper, in all the different papers, Information Services. You know, explaining the government's pro gram, and everything. MR . TURNBULL: Not all, not all pieces of, or pamphlets that are produced are produced by Information Services • MR. HENDERSON: No )not all pamphlet s I know like in your department the Landlord 'llld Tenant Act Questions and Answers, that's not a part of this.

I'm referring to the bulletins that come out in these envelop es all the time, and then the ones that appear in the paper all the time. I think we all must admit that these are propaganda sheets for whichever government's in power. MR. TURNBULL: Well of course ••• MR. HENDERSON: To a large extent. MR. TURNBULL: ••• one can always make charges of any kind at all, I suppose, and my only rebuttal to this is to say that the Information Services bull etins that are put out by this branch are used by mostly, I think, by rural and weekly news papers.

And it is indeed to provide, you know, a basic reference data for the rural areas. In the city where we have three TV stations and a couple of cable channels, two major newspapers, plus a great number of suburban papers there is perhaps not quite as much need but they're still used there. They're useful, and I don't think that they're propaganda in the derogatory sense , in the derogatnry use of that word, I think that they're publications that provide basic data and generally factu.al .

March 22, 1976 SUPPL Y - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR. TURNBULL cont'd) 1411 The other thing of course is , you know, when you're having a press conference , it's useful when you've got 15 or 20 people to have a piece of paper on which the basic facts are contained, the basic position of the government . I think it's only fair to the public of Manitoba that they know what the position of the government is as that position develops . This is one way of getting it known. MR . HENDERSON: Yes.

I'm not saying that it isn't informational to a certain extent but it's repetition, and it is slanted towards the government side no matter which government's in. If it's the Land Lease Program, they 're talking about how you can use it and how you can use your cattle program, or any of these things . It is slanted towards the governm ent, so it is a propaganda. MR . TURNBULL: I am advised that those two particular programs are not produced by the Information Services Branch. Now I don't mean to include in that the Information Services bulletins but the actual pamphlets are not produced by this branch.

They 're produced by people in the De partment of Agriculture as far as I know. MR. HENDERSON: I'm not just referring to little pamphlets that go out, I'm referring to these sheets that keep coming out continuously. The News Service that keeps coming out continually, and they keep appearing in the papers continually. And I was wondering also in your Information News Service, does it include any of your TV or your radio programs at all, or is it just in these news service sheets that go out. MR. TURNBULL: Would you repeat the question? MR .

HENDERSON: Does it include any of your advertising on radio and TV, or does it just include sheets that go out in your News Service Bulletin? MR . TURNBULL: Advertising on various media or in various media is carried by the line department not by Information Services . MR . HENDERSON: Oh ,it's carried by what ? MR. TURNBULL: Information Services does not pay for advertising for a line department. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR . TOUPIN: Mr.

Ch airman, I can't speak for my other colleagues but I've been a Minister now for about six and a half years and I've always used Information Services . I can't recall having used Information Services mice to announce a philosophy of the New Democratic Party. I've asked them to prepare press releases while I was Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs , Health and Social Development, Tourism and Recreation, Cultural Affairs , Co-operative Development, and the type of information that I make available to Information Services is the type of information that is requested of me as a Minister of the Cr own.

That doesn't mean that it's carried by the press, but at least it's prepared with minds of people that are trained for that pur pose, and I have to congratulate Information Services for the type of services rendered, not to me as a Minister of the Crown but to the people of Manitoba. I don't say that I can speak for all of my colleagues because not all of my colleagues use Information Services to the extent that I do. But I feel that they've rendered a service and I don't see it as a propaganda machine. MR . CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. WILSON: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to respond in kind to the Minister of Tourism except that he did say that it's never been used for government philosophy, and I agree; in the short time I've read it, I could say that . But they certainly are in many cases just simply press releases that the following day that I can see verbatim in a couple of the Winnipeg Dailies or one of the local weekly sheets . However, I do want to say this, the Minister in replying again last year in Hansard obviously put the blame on the previous government and talked about his acquisition of all his television equipment.

And I wondered if he can enlighten a new member how his VRT equipment is coming in light of the fact that the Public Works Minister admitted that there was a rheostat and some new lighting in the Chamber that's goi.p.g to allow television coverage of our pro ceedings. And I wondered if the Minister could tell me whatever happened to the

1412 March 22, 1976 SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE SERVICES (MR. WILSON cont'd) ••••• acquis:ition of all this VRT and television equipment. Is this going to be put in to use with the new lights that the Minister of Public Works has put in ? Are we to look forward to filming you Ministers speaking and then showing it on a Saturday afternoon on one of the local channels, or could you possibly explain what you have in mind for that area ? MR . CH AffiMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR . TURNBULL: • •• look forward to that ? MR . WILSON: No, I didn't say I was looking forward to it.

I think it's terribly unfair as a member of the Opposition, terribly unfair to have to overcome this obvious lead that you have in the race like the tortoise and the hare because you have this propa ganda machine to grind out all this information, plus you have now television equipment. When we get down later on, we 're going to talk about a milli on point nine in advertising, pl us. I'm just wondering what you 're doing with all this money. Please explain the television equipment, how you intend to use it this coming session or possibly this coming season. What are you doing with it ?

Has it now become redundant, or are you using it ? MR. TURNBULL: Mr. Chairman, I can well sympathize with the mem ber's feeling about being a tortoise because as a backbencher for four yea rs, I can assure him that it's even more difficult to get your point of view across in the public media than it is for a member of the opposition. With regard to the acquisition of the VTR equipment, he was referring there to Hansard, and I can tell him that I believe in that Hansard.

On my Estimates last year I indicated that the amount of money shown for the acquisition of the VTR in last year's Estimates would be a one-shot affair and that I would be able to report in this year's Estimates a reduction in that appropriation. And there is a decrease of $112 ,6 00

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-47
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 47.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4887a4322f2da12fbf3fbfffdf9c04735dac7571

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