Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENER~L ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNQLANO ~~. c -tJ\.( ,_/.. 2nd. Session VERBATIM REPORT MONDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 1977 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 2

February 7, 1977 The !louse met at 2:00 P . ~! . ~!r. Speaker in the Chair. Order , pl<'""Se! Tape No . 28 The hon . the Premier . NM - 1 PRF.MlER MOORF.S : Mr . Speaker, I would like to propose a motion on the 'l'wenty-fifth Anniversary of the Accession of Queen Eli zabeth the Second to the Throne . I would ask that the following communication be sent,hut first of all, Sir, T move, seconded by the Leader of the OJ•flo_c;ition, that the followinr. resolution from this hon.

House of Assembly be transmitted to Her Majesty, Oueen F.lizaheth : On the occasion of the Silver Jubilee of Your accession to the Throne, the people of Newfoundland convey to Your Majesty their most sincere congratulations in this expression of their heartfelt appreciation of Your inspirinp, devotion to duty and Yonr unceasin~ labours on hehal f of the Commonwealth duri_nsr; the pnst twenty-Hve years.

As BritAin's first colony and \.anadn 's younr.cst Pro vince, Newfoundland wishes to assur<' Your "fa1esty on this happy occ::~sion of its continuin~ loyalty and allep,iance and joins with all of Canada and the Commonwealth in the fe rvent hone that You may continue to reign for many years in peace, health and happiness . ~OMF. 110'l. HF.MBERS: Hear! Hear ! :1R . SPF.AKr:R: 'tR. ROBF.RTS: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Tt is with a gr eat deal of pleasure and pride thnt we on this side, Sir, support the resolution. As the Premier h:ls said I am honou red to have it stand w1th my name as the 7!1

F~bruarv 7 , 1977 Tape No . 28 ""'~- 2 HR . RORF.RTS: seconder . ! would make only one or two small ~~ndments,T would su~v.est which J niA "nt have the opportunity to mPntion to the Premier outside . I do feel we should say "Newfoundl;md and l,abrador :• 1-lr. Speaker , if that is agreea ble to rh~ Prpmlt>r. MR. SPEAKER: Lhe hon . Prrmier . !_R.f"'TF:R MOORF.S: Nr . Sne<Jker. it is the Province of Newfoundland officiallv,and i.f it is from the neorle of Newfoundland and J,Mrrador T IJavc;o no oh1ection .

But as it is a formal messap,e, anct ns th«' official n:~me is the Province of N"ewfoundl;:md, om~<>lhlv t he> l.t'adrr of the Onpnsiti.Jln and myself could wnrk out the c~ct verbage to be inclu ded in the messa~e,as lonp, as the i.n tt'nt is concerned . I thjnk that is important , Sir , particularly in vtew of thP fact that thPre is

an act of this Lep.islatu r P whlch r~ttuirl!s us to UIIP Newfoundland and l.abradot: \<herever it is appropriate to do,nnd without p.ettinr. into any arp.ument :abou r the lt>P.:tl namt' of tht> Province, tht> active part of the r~solution t s the p~ople of ~pwfoundland,unle~s we put l.:lhntdor i.n . A1 so. ' lr . Sneak<'r. we are not necessarilv Br1.tian ' 11 first colonv , we nr<' Brittan's oldest colony . Britian hnd colon l('s he> fore> NPwfounclland hecamP :1 r.nlo ny. 8ut we ar e th,. o 1 "''"t rn l<'nv and that was our traditlonal tP.rm. ~.!'!!!!.!t MOORf.S: We were. ~._!{_Q_IIf.RT_:<:_:_ I :am IIOt:rY ?

I said we wen• the ol dest colony until we became "dominion in t931. ~r . Sneaker, the r esolution l am sure will commend the supoort of al1 of us. Thr Queen, Sir, is the Queen of Canada ns well as the Ouccn of the United K in~tdom . We, Sl.r, function in the Queen's name. The r.ovet'nment of this Province has en-cried nn in the OupPn's name. Lhere are no words of mine that can 80

F'ehruarv 7. 1 an Tape No . 28 ~. ROBF.RTS: ndd to the tributes that will he paid t o Her 'la1esty on the 'l'wenty - fifth Anni versarv of Her Accession to the Throne and the way ~ which she has enhanced the traditions of the monarchy . Sir, \t is a oleasure and a humble duty, Sir , to second this motion,and I do so gladly. ~- 3 NR . SPF.AKF.R: • It has been moved and seconded Lhat the messa~e he sent to Her }lai es ty the l')ueen. The hon . Minister of J~~ticc . ~ . HICKMAN : ~lr .

Sneaker, it is with re~tret that 1 advise this !fnusc> of the- <le:lth nn .l:mu'lrv 26th . , 1977 • • lt the aP,c of c{~htv-seven vears,of Commander Ralei~h Gilbert of Compton f~stle ln the Villar.e of Compton, North Oevon . f.n~and . The latt> Commander C:ilbert was n direct descendP.nt of Sir llumohrey Cilhert and Sj r IJal ter RaleiSth . Commandf>r C:i]hcrt first visited Newfoundland in 1907 nnd on severa.l subse(luent oc-casions while servinp, in the Royal Navy. r~mmnndcr Gil~crt was a P.Uest of the Citv of St .

John's in 1957 for t he presentation of the civic symbols,and a guest c>f t:he Cnvcrnm<•nt of Newfoundland at thE' oo<'njnP. of the new univnrsHy buildin~s at Hemor ial llnivl"rslty 1.n 1961. Commander Gilbe r t dedicated his 11.fe to the acq u.i.si cion and res t oratlon of Compton Castle which is indeed a Newfoundland !'luseum tn th<' United Kinp;dom. The 11reat hall of C:ompton C:tstlE' is filled with a(tifac t s and information concerninr, t his Province .

Tht> late Commander Gilbe r t throu~ho ut the years endeavoured to maintain st ronr. links hetween Newfoundland and the C:llhE'rt family nod thnrr. is a pla(lue i n the cbapel of C:ompt:on Castle placed lw the appropri ate chap t er of the I.O . D. E. from Newfoundland tn recognit:ion of that 'lssociatinn. I 1

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 29 Page 1 - mw Mr. Hickman. As a matter of historic interest, 1983 will be the 400th anniversary of Compton Castle. A memorial service to the late Commander Raleigh Gilbert·will be held in Malden Church, Compton,on February 22, 1977 at 3:00P.M. I move, seconded by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, that tllis hon. House sen<.ls sincere condolences to Mrs. Gilbert and her family on the passing of her late husband, who was a great Englishman, with a strong affection for Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Hear, hear! The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, as the minister has said I second the motion, Sir, on the passing of a man who has served this country of Newfoundland, as we then were, so notably, Sir, should be recorded by the House. It is not a matter for joy but a matter of the inevitable cycle of life.

It is perhaps particularly appropriate that the motion should come today when the House has already adopted a resolution of loyalty to Her Najesty, bccanse of course, it was Commander Gilbert's direct ancestor, as I understand it, Sir l:lumphrey Gilbert and his half-brother Sir Walter Raleigh who planted the Standard on the King's Beach, you !mow, the Queen's Beach,I guess it was~here in St. John's on that August day in 1583 thereby claiming this territory for the Crown of England.

Sir, Commander Raleigh - actually he wrote a couple of very interesting books as well on Newfoundlandia and Newfoundland things - devoted a large part of his life to the family tradition, to re-acquiring the castle which, I believe, had passed out of the family's hands in the intervening time and restoring and adding to it. i\nd I think, Sir, that we, as a Province, should be more conscious of our history. We have a great history, and I think that men like Commander Gilbert, Sir, have served us well. And the fact that we !mow 82

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 29 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. so little of it is perhaps more an indication of failing on our part than a failing on any other part at all. Commander Gilbert, Sir > I would hope that the government will send somebody to represent us at the funeral. We have a steady parade of ministers to the United Kingdom, Sir, and this might be far more appropriate than some of the reasons for which ministers or other members on the government side are sent overseas. Commander Gilbert, Sir, served Newfoundland well, and I think we should commemorate the occasion, and I second the motion. HR.

SPEAKER: It has been moved and seconded and concurred in that an appropriate message of condolence be sent to Mrs. Gilqert. PRESENTING PETITIONS: The hon. member for Fogo, followed by the hon. member for Lapoile. CAPT. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition from the parents, students anci teachers of Musgrave Harbour.

The prayer of this petition is that"I.Je the people, of Musgrave Harbour, do petition the Government of Newfoundland to effect on our behalf the construction of adequate educational facilities in order that our children might have educational opportunities to those often taken for granted and which do exist in many communities in Newfoundland. "The Integrated Educational Committee recognizes our needs, but the ultimate responsibility lies with government as it is they who must provide the financing before a deplorable situation is to be rectified." Also, Mr.

Speaker, attached to this petition is a copy of a brief which has been submitted to the Denominational Educational Committee for the Integrated School Board on behalf of the Musgrave lmrbour school systems.

february 7, 1977 Tape no. 29 Page 3 - 1ll\ol Capt. Winsor. I might polnt out a few of the points raised in that brief, Mr. Speaker:"(

l) Severe space restrictions; not enough classroom space, storage space or office space. Present structures are tot;llly inadequate. Overcrowding: The present classroom structures are unable to accommodate the number of students en·rollcd . Students are even being taught in the school corridors. There are no facilities for a physicial educational progran ut;<_ in the.> hiSth school auditorium !s being used,but it is far too small. And because the noise travels through the walls into the classrooms it causes the problem of disruption of the classes. There are no changing facilities!' And I would take it, Mr.

Speaker, that this means that there are no facilities for the changing of regular clothing to gym clothing. 4

Fehruary 7, 1977 T:tpe 30 IB-1 CAPT. WINSOR: "l.,T,«hrnnm facilities are totally inadequate causing hygienic problems. There are no - and this is a very important point, Mr. Speaker - there are no facilities for remedial or special education. Children with problems who need special attention are denied the benefit of this attention because of lack of space and equipment.

There are no laboratory facilities for science programmes and they are unable to use the equipm·ent which they now have because of lack of space. ''The present school structures are inadequately ventilated and insulated causing uncomfortable conditions and a poor environment for the children who have to attend the school." I might say, Mr. Speaker, that this situation will be further aggravated next September when there will be another twenty-five students ready to enroll in those facilities.

I am sure that a similar situation exists in the community of Carmanville,where there is great need for improving educational facilities. I strongly support this petition, Mr. Speaker, and ask that it be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay ne Verde speaking on the petition of the member for Fogo. MR. ROWE: I will yield to the minister, Mr. Speaker, if he wishes to support the petition. Well, Mr. Speaker, I rise to support my colleague from Fogo (Capt. Winsor) on this particular petition.

I really find it quite amazing that such inadequate facilities still exist within our Province here today and it is not,obviously, entirely confined to the Husgrave Harbour area, because I know on the Northwest Coast similar inadequacies exist at the present U .me and I think this all stems, Sir, from the way that money is raised for educational purposes in this Province. I think we have to have a ~•hole new look at the raising of money for educational purposes and the method of distributing money for educational purposes at the elementary, primary and secondary levels.

There are obviously many inequities and inequalities as far as educational 8S

February 7, 1977 Tape 30 IB-2 tAR. RO\.ffi: opportunities are concerned throughout the Province,geographically speaking,and when you compare - MR. HICKHAN: Hr. Speaker, to a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. MR . HI CKlUU~ : I put this early in the session so that we will not,hopefully,have to do this from here on. I draw Your Honour's attention to rule 97 which says, "There shall be no debate on a petition, unless the House has it under consideration." I do submit that the hon. the member for Trinity-Bay De Verde O!r.

Rowe) is indeed entering into a debate on the financing of education and referring to matters not strictly related to this petition. And the rule of relevancy,I submit,and the absolute necessity of hon. gentlemen keeping their remarks confined strictly to that petition is very appropriate and necessary. IIR • SPEAKER: On that point of order, I call to han. members' attention Standing Order 97 as quoted by the hon. government House Leader, "There shall be no debate on a petition - it goes on to say - unless the House has it under consideration." That is a different matter.

And also Standing Order 92 which speaks of, "Every member offering a petition to the House;' but of course this applies as well to members speaking in support of a petition, "shall confine himself to the statement of the parties from who~ it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains." The point of order is well taken. One, remarks with respect to the subject of the method of educational financing, the raising of money for education,would be outside of the material allegations of this particular petition. The hon. member for Trinity-Bay De Verde. 'MR.

ROWE: ·------ Thank you, Mr. Spe11.ker. There is not much left to say,if I was r,etting into the realm of debate,except to mention the fact I wholeheartedly support the petition presented by my colleague from Fogo (Capt. !-linsor). MR . SPEAA.E"R: The hon. Minister of Education.

February 7, 1977 Tape 30 IB-3 MR. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, I want. to just speak. to the petition :1nd to say that I have had correspondence from that particular Area, as a matter of fact, from three communities related to the same problem and it is in the same area. And without the propriety of the petition coming to the House of Assembly for discussion because we recognize there are a number of things chat should be done and we recognize in the petition what they are talking about there, that there are a lot of inadequacies in the school system,

February 7,1977. Tape 31 A}l-1 MR. HOUSE: hut just for the record, government ltns made available to the Demoninational Education Committees, dating back three years and ahead seven, which is a ten year period, an amount of $135 million, and that rises of course to a peak at $16 million in the latter stages. ~d what I want to point out is that this money is made available to the Demoninational Education Committees. And there is no way, there is no law, there is no legal mechanism, there is no statute to allow us to make monies available for school buildings to a board or to a community.

And just to make the point perhaps a little more strongly, no matter how much money the government made available to the ~ e moninational Education Eommittees, the government cannot state that a school can be built in either community. It just has to rely on the authorities. I just want to put that in the record. HR. SPEAKER: Han. member for Lapola.e fol l ot-Ted by the han . member for Hay of Islands. M:Z. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker I beg leave of the House t o present a petition Sir on behalf of eleven hundred residents of the 0reat Northern Peninsula, between Trout IUver and Parsods l'ond 1 the people who are affected by the provincial purchase and expropriation of land for the Gras Horne N .~tional Park. llr. Speaker,I regret that the member for thr. !louse of Assembl y for the district of St. Barbe South is not in his seat today, but I did send the han. member a copy of the petition. rlr.

Speaker,although the government has compromised Hith the origiona1 request nr the petition for a royal commission to investigate the charges of po1it ical interfe.ccnce and unfair expropriation of private lands for commercial use hy others than the owner, unfa:ir compensation for expropr:iated lands, discr:imination on the part of the land deal,according to the prayer of the petition; lack of knowledge or evaluation of land on the part of the land appraisers, and unfair compensation for the loss of cutting rights enjoyed by residents of the area althoug~ tre government Sir has compromised and set up a commission of enquiry under 8S

l~ebr n nry 7,1977 Tal'e 31 AH- 2 NR . !lEARY: the Public J~nquiries Act, nevcrthP tess I still feel ohlir.atcd to present this petition becau~c as I pointed out a few rnomentfl ago,Si.r, the people that requested that the government of Newfoundland appoint a Royal Cotmnission co i nvestigate all thes e transactions . And in supp<>rtinp, t he pctition, Nr .

Speaker , l et us hope a~ members or thi.$ llou~e thnt ther e wil l be an extu clllflhasls on the need LO rcnch :1 f 11 i r and ('C(Ui tahlc and snPetiv rcoorr. wh 1 ,.., ~ill satis f y these eleven hundred citizens of the Crear Northern Peninsula and the Bonne Bay area of our pro vince , and t o prove to t hem Sir that jus tice will not only be done but that it woul d appear ,as my hon. fr~e n J , the Hinis ter of Justice would say, i t would appear that j ustice has been done ln this

part icular case . It ~ives me ~reat plc11su re,str)to support the praye r of the petition. I call upon members on either side of the House co s upport t he petition on behalf of e lc>ven hundred of their fellow llewfo undlander s who feel chat there has hcC'n 3 p,ravc ln just ice done to them in the cxpropri.ation of l:~nc.l in the C ro~ More Nat .tonAl J;';'lrk area. ~II< . SPhAk1·:R: ~Ill . W\)()J)J{O\~: lion . memher Cor Bav of lslnads . llr .

Speaker I would . like to pr esent a petit lon nn hchnlf of two hundn·d nnd fo rty one voters of the community of Summerside in the llistdct of the ll<1y of lslanl..ls and the prayer o f the petition re~ds as follows: . " We the undersi gned from the conununity of Summer sl.t!e clo hereby submit a petitio n fo r the ins tallation of water ~nrl sewe r age in our communi ty. We have the wate-c sup ply he-ce. With 1t properly hatnl!'l!sed it 1~ill supply the whole community with 1mt er .

We loc>k fn r w11nl to yo•J"C r,reates t consideration i n this our greatest nct>d :• 1 would juat like to make the following comments on t his ~' r . ~l'eaker . first of :~11. .•

February 7, 1977 Tape 32 PK - l Mr . Woodrow: the acquisition of water and sewerage was the number one priority for me when I became a member of the district of Bay of Islands. Number two, the community is in favour of havin~ a main line put through the community as opposed to spending a whole lot of money in bringing the water to each horne. Number three, the source of supply is behind the community; in fact, it is on the edge of the community. And also to conclude, Mr.

Speaker, there is a small dam at present used by the school board, and the council and the community advises me that with funds from the Department of Municipal Affairs and !lousing a large darn could be built. Now I would like, Mr. Speaker, to place this before the Department of Municipal Affairs, and perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affair s and Housing would be kind enough to make a remark or two on it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ~ gF.AKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. ~N_ ._}. lllNN_:_ Mr.

Speaker, it goes without saying that government would like to provide water and sewer and all the other facilities that a re required by many of the communities in Newfoundland. And certainly Summerside, - t1R. STHJ\l.11AN: And not Labrador. MR._ p_I~N: -nnd Labrador - and certainly Summers ide will be considered as all other districts and communities will be considered in the upcoming months, and hopefully they will be one of the ones that are lucky enou~h to be provided with funds, to be provided with the water and sewer MR. S~ MR. F. WHITE: that they so rightly deserve and need. Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, for our side I would like to support the pe tition as presented by the member for Bay of Island (Mr. Woodrow). Water and sewer is a big problem in his area . It is a problem all over Newfoundland. And I would like in supporting the member's petition to thank him for supporting an effort by me last year to get

February 7, 1977 Tape 32 PK - 2 Mr. F. White: a water and sewer system going at Embree in the district of Lewisporte. So I would just like to say we support it, and we hope that there can be some debate on what is going to happen with respect to water and sewer during this session. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: ~ ~kNETL: The han. member from Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition on behalf of the mobile homeowners of Stephenville, protesting the high rates of insurance for mobile homes.

The prayer of the petition request the ~overnment to investigate into insuring practices and rates imposed by insurance companies. Since action has already begun in this direction by the Department of Consumer Affairs, and I have with me a mobile home analysis report from the Mobile Homeowners Committee of Stephenville pointing out that the mobile home situation in Stephenville is not as bad as it was reported in the lAO's and CIS reports, that is, our losses due to fire and wind are not as high as in other parts of Canada. I am prepared to table this report for the benefit of members.

The report ~ives eleven recommendations and refutes some of the opininns in the reports studied by the Committee. For example, the Stephenville wind velocities are stated by Environment Canada's Report are not as severe as examples quoted for other parts of the country. Also there is a one in fifty probability of an annual wind speed of seventy-four miles per hour. This is below the present construction standard for mobile homes which is seventy-five miles per hour.

The mobile homes in Stephenville are situated within the Stephenville fire distribution system, and therefore are not remote 1 plus the fact that there has not been any major fire losses within the last flve years. The space between the floor and the ground is encasecl in most mobile homes in Stephenville. It is hoped by the Committee that the Stephenville Mobile Homeowners will get a lower base premium due to the three key favourable points mentioned in ·their report. And it is further hoped that a certain percentage can be 91

Pebruary 7, 1977 Tape 32 PK - 3 deducted for each mobile homeowner, for each of the recommendations that the owner has incorporated into his mobile home. It is also further hr•ped that the Department of Consumer Affairs would accept the report and approach the insur ance companies on their behalf for better insurance rates . Mr . Speaker, l ask that this petition be placed upon the table of the House and referred to the departm ent to which it relates. Hear, hear! 9 •) ~·

February 7, 1977, Tape 33, Pa~e 1 -- aph MR. SPEAKER: MR. NOLAN: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition as submitted by the hon. the member for Stephenville. Although the report he now tables refers to Stephenville and the mobile homes in that area, I think that the same, perhaps, could be true,if we had the necessary data,for other districts in the Province. I feel that in some instances we have been fed a bill of goods by some of the insurance companies.

I believe that the kind of information that the hon. member,and particularly the committee provide, indicating that there are, I believe,less fir~s in mobile homes than in what we consider normal buildings, normal residential areas; also recommendations, as I remember from reading that report, making recommendations for how you should tie a mobile unit down.

Also, I think that it mip,ht be a very, very good thing, particularly in my own area and other areas as well, where you have a great preponderance of mobile homes, that perhaps the people should get together and come up with a report,and benefit from this experience so that they can really make the case when dealing with the insurance companies. Since it is a well-known fact that when you are buying in quantity that you should get a better deal with n p~ckage deal, perhaps mobile homeowners should take advantage of the very fine job done by this committee and maybe we can all benefit from it.

I hope that perhaps we might have some initiative made on this perhaps from the Minister of Municipal Affairs to assist in this matter, or the 11inister of Consumer Affairs in this current session of the House, because many people in mobile homes feel they are being discriminarPr against as to insurance. So we are very happy to support the petition by the hon. member. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WOODROW: The hon. the member for Bay of Islands. Mr. Speaker, I have reason to support the petition presented by the hon. the member for Stephenville, because in my district we have mobile homes.

In fact, unfortunately at the present time the proprietor or the owner of the mobile home park has, at least he is hopinr to have, ten families evicted. This to my !I :l

February 7, 1977, Tape 33, Page 2 -- apb MR. \WODROW: mind is a serious matter. Actually what it is about, Mr. Speaker, i.s concerning five per cent on the homes when they are sold or change hands. I really feel that we should have a debate on thi.s. MR. NEARY: ------ Are we talking about i.nsurance? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I should point out to the hon. gentleman a stipulation which was read earlier and that is in speaking to the peittion the hon. gentleman should confine his remarks to either the number of parties from whom it comes and the number of signatures and then,essentially, the material allegations it contains, the material that is in the petition. The hon. the member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, probably I was taken away a bit at the time, but I was about to finish the remarks I had made.

I repeat again that I hope that some time during the session a com~lete debate will be made on mobile homes and that we will have the regulations passed in this hon. House. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are there any further petitions? PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have the annual duty of presenting or tabling the

summary of s~ecial warrants for the year. It is always an item of interest and excitement. The total of the warrants this year is $83,242,600. MR. ROBERTS: All for 'George Cross'? MR. OOODY: The two substantial amounts: There is a $75,400,000 amount for the Department of Finance which represented a loan to the Gull Island Corporation for work by that corporation. The other substantial amount is an amount of almost $5 million for the Department of Rehabilitation and Recreation which was really a swi.tch of subheads, or a switch of heads, Originally voted in the

February 7, 1977, Tape 33, Page 3 - - apb ~1R. OOOnY: Department of Health it was transferred to Rehabilitation and Recreation for the homes for the a~ed and inf irm so that they could he cost-share d under CAP. The difference is about $3 millio n,s o the total is $83 , 242,000. There are copies here for, extensive copies of Pach for the edification of members who may be interested. I also table at this time the Annual Report of the Newfoundland Liquor Licensing Board, which always makes interesting and scintilating conversat ion and reading for the hon . members. HR. NEARY: MR.

DOODY: What about a progress report on the - We also table, with the permission and 11cquiescence of the bon. the m.ember for LaPoile,who is his usual silent self this af t ernoon, the Annual Report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited, another document of brevity aftd efficiency. MR. NEARY: Will the hon. minister read it? 95

Fchr.uarv 7, 1~77 Tape No. 34 NM- 1 NR. DOODY: The hon. minister will if the House so desires. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister. of Education. ~IR. HOUSF.: Hr. Speaker., in accordance with the requirements of our legislation, T am tabling herewith copies of certain rep:ulati.ons which have to he nlAced before the Legislature.

The rep;ulations in question are: the tr':lc:hPr certification rep;ulations: the tenc-hpr c:ertification(amE'nrlment number <mE'' yef'.u]ations, 1971i; the sehoo] boards' nllocation of monpv -re~tlations, l q7f,: rep,ulations increasin!>, oper:ttion of grants to school hoards; the Local School Tax Amendment Recrnl<>t·inns, 1976; The Schools Act; transportation of pupils; school board elections regulations; nncl again Thf' Schools Act, transportation of pupils amendments HR. NEARY: ----·--- Anybody left to report the School Act? ~~R. l!ClUSF: Yes. MR. SPF.AKT'.R: The hon.

Minister of Manpower and Tnclustrial Relations. fiR. ROlJS SF.ATI: --- ---- Mr. Speaker, 1 table the Department of Public Works :mel SE>rvi ct>s, rollege of Trades and Tt"chnology narktnp. n>r.ul:Jtions. I agree,you know,it would be p;reat if we could iust nut it in tlw Speaker's Office and not table them; and the annual report of the Newfoundland Public Service Commission. 'fR. RORERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a point of order. 'IR. SPEAKf.R: A point of order. T think it 1s worth at least raisiP.g 1 and Your Honour mav lv:lnt to rule or Your Honour may want to look at it,beciltt!"P.

J havf> nP.ver heard - When a document is required to be laid on the tahle of the Hous<",is the minister required by anything other than possihJv the tradition to stand and to -as the minister himself ind1cated, thP. College of Trades and Technolo~y parking r<"r,ul at l.ons ;ue not exact1y 1 you know, crucial to the pubLic interest In thC' sP.nSP rhpy h:tve been r,azf'tted and anybody who is particularly

F'ehurary 7, 1977 Tape No. 34 NM - 2 !'fR. ROBERTS_: interested is already intimately familiar I am sure. Is rhpre ~ornE' procE'dUrE' whereby they could he tabled, perhaps laid upon the table or perhaps brought to the Clerk's Office anr1 then put in -we r;et a dailv Tlansard,usually within thE' mont 1 ;-~ ,,<1 made available that way? I raise it only as a matter of~I think 1of importance 1but a matter of new importance . M3. SPEA!g'R: . Any further submission on that point? If not l shall have to consider it and p,ive a rulinr; later. Are there ilny furthPr reports? ORAL OUF.STIONS: MR. S"PEAKF.R: The han.

Leader of the Opposition. - - - ---- HR. ROBEJI.TS: We zip right down through those, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier, Sir, and i.t is with reference to the joh crPatlon nror;ramme announced in the Speech from the Throne. We do not have a cute little name on it vet like Canada Works or Young Cannda Works or anvthinr, as yet. But my question, Sir, bC'p;ins hy asking the Premier if he could let us know, Sir, when the first neople, the first of the approximatE'ly 500 people who apparently will he hired to work on this nrogramme, when we can expect to see them hjred? Mil.

SPF.AKJo:R: The hon. l'rPmier. ·------ · PRF.MTF.H MOORF.S: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I can answer that questlon. r cannot answer the question as to when the first one will he hired. The programme is gearer1 in the area of fisheries and that is really., I would hope ,certai.nly 1 and 1 suspect, that it: will he in advancing fishery projects which will have ongoing benefit.

And the same happens in Tourism and Forestry and also in the nenartment of Social Services wherehv penr>lc• ,,,~n have not had an oppnrtuni tv to get nff the social welf:n:e rolls 1d ll have an opportunity to participate in the programme,and the expectation is, Mr. Speaker, as T S<t id T do not know 14hen the first one will be hjred but T woul rl suspeC'.t that the l<1.st one will be hired before the next three weeks

T~oe No . 34 ~\- 3 l'llF'IlF.Il NC10l!F'S: is out . '1r . Sp~~tker , ;t surmlementarv . II suoplement~trv . Can thP. Prcmt~r indtcate , Sfr, wh~n some p.uideltnes wi I 1 ht> mAd~ rmbl ic or whE-n some info rma cion will be m~td!1" pul>lic ,.,, t,l r~sn.-ct co chis l'ro gram!ll<' ,and soecificallv "'i.th1.n th<' context nf th:tc cnn the PrC'm·!er indicnte whether t hese pro~r ::nnmPs will he anAlogous CC" thP. l.Tl' . C:nnada "'arks thin~t 'l'l'he-re the init1.ac lve roMPS from the locnl Area and thP. P.Ovcrnment responds hoo<-fully '-'irh :moroval nne\ ch<-oue.

And secondly . or :llce roate ly and srcon dlv, whC'thPr th<' pro~rnmmes will he initiated by p.ovc rnme nc dcpn rtm e nc s tlC'c-1d1nr to rnrrv nut a certain pro iccc and chen rrroceedinR frnm th<'TC'~ PltRMTElt W)ORE~: ·-----·- ... - Thc> stcuation is, Mr .

Speal:er , if thE>rC' Is a I.IP I'To\t><"t ort>'<l'ntlv r.nlnP. e>n that rcqui.TC's ass1scnnce ;tnn it comPs •d rhtn thl' cr1 tcr1n r mentioned of resC'Iurce d~velof'meont C\VI.'ntua llv , or ii thC' dl.'~~rtment concC'rnrd has to idcntifv the nro~ramme . it will n<>t hP :1 nror.rnnunP wherP thC\rC\ will he ann) i.cati.ons f rom all ronc~rned I'Pe>nlC', 11'> I'IUC'h '\t liC' would enioy that .

The fact is, Sir, thnt chcv wtll be selective' programmes geared at resourc e acvelopment nne! thl' ol'<>r•i<'. whC'th~r tt bC' the Ftshei'Tilan 's Committee or whcth~r ' t h<' .1ne>thPr r.rnuo in the 'ocal aren . will be ndvised :'IS to thP tYIH' nf lninr thnt we h:'IVI.' i n mind a nd wit h their consultation wr wtl\ then :'l!>f'rove the p,nlnp ahc>ad of it.

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 35 Page 1 -'- mw MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, growing out of the Premier's answer there, can the Premier indicate whether the government - since this is to be a government initiated programme,if I understood him correctly - whether the government have identified a list of likely areas and projects, you know, that they will have in mind? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREl'fiER MOORES: The answer is, yes, Mr. Speaker.

It now remains to have consultation with the local people to carry on with the programme, and if it is any advantage to the House we will gladly, once the programmes have all been identified, table where they are and why in the House. HR. Sl'EAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River, followed by the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. STRACHAN : Again on unemployment, Mr. Speaker.

Could the Minister of ~illnpower tell us whether, apart from another Task Force which only delays the problem, whether the government have any plans to alleviate immediately the drastic unemployment and food economic situation now existing in Happy Valley - Goose Bay, where a rapid close down of a number of government projects has really caused a serious situation? MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. We forme.d a · committee recently and- to the area to interview each of the individuals involved.

I think a week before last I received a report, on Thursday of last week, in which they interviewed each of these people who ~ re now working and who were not working to see what could be done. We have a profile of them. We are working closely together with Canada Manpower and the report is ready now, and government will take a look at it. It is an initial report and certainly government have made a commitment to the people that anything can be done to alleviate this situation from a Provincial point of view will be done. 9 !1

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 35 Page 2 - mw MR. NEARY: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Public Works and Services. Would the minister tell the House what has transpired recently, and if any decisions have been taken in connection with additional office space to house the public servants? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR . ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, nothing has happened recently. First of all,the federal study we had done a couple of years ago is being updated.

This is a division of the Federal Department of Supply and Services who we retained, I think two or three years ago 1 and we are having them update their study of two or three years ago which we hope to have - MR. ROBERTS: Fours years ago. MR. ROUSSEAU: Four years ago 1 it was - by May of this year. We would hope that that would give us an indication of what space we need, based on certain limitations they have in respect to the space requirements of individuals and so on. In the meantime,! think what the hon. member is getting at is Atlantic Place.

And what the hon. minister said, and said it over and over again, is that the re are a number of options open to government; build its own building ,. lease a building, stay like it is,or Atlantic Place or any other large area. It is merely one of the options availably because there is a large amount of space there. The minister nor the government did not the say it was going to take space in Atlantic Place. It did not say it was going to build its own buildin~ or lease a building. But it is one of the possible options when you look at the amount of space that is required by the various government departments.

So it is merely one of the options available. No decision has yet been taken. 100

february 7, 1977 Tape no. 35 Page 3 - mw MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: My supplementary, Sir, is directed to the hon. Premier. Would the han. Premier tell the House whether or not the hon. gentleman intends to proceed with the suggestion that the Premier made in the last session of the House that a special committee of the House would be established to look into office space 'to house the public service in this Province? Does the Premier still intend to follow that procedure? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier.

PllliHIER MOORES: I do not know if that suggestion was made in the House or behind the curtain, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: In the House. PREHIER MOORES: But the fact is that 1 think there is no question whatsoever that office space is needed for the sake of efficiency.

This is always a very delicate situation when it comes up because there are all kinds of intonations read into it and what can happen and so on. ~ut certainly it: would, I would hope, be the subject of the Department of Public Works' presentation after which time, when we look at the requirements, we can either have a Select Committee of the House on the matter or the government could put forward a proposition which can be debated by the House, either one. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Would the han. minister tell the House whether it is the minister's intention to lay on the table of this House the report of the Federal-Provincial Task Force that the minister just spoke of that is updating the matter of office space to house the public service in this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The han. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: I will take that question under advisement, Mr. Speaker. The study is merely for a departmental study,for the edification of the Department of Public Works' officials. It is not meant to be any secret document. f am sure the federal department would not in any way tell us 101

Fet>ruarv 7, 1977 Tape no. 35 Page 4 - mw Mr. Rousseau. anything of a policy nature. All they are saying is that you have so many peoole, you need so much space,and here are the obvious options that you have. In consultation with my colleagues, I will take it under advisement. MR. NEARY: Could I have one final supplementary? 1 0 :J,

February 7, 1977 Tape 36 MR. SPEAKER: One final supplementary. 11R. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House then who are the members of this task force and are they being paid by the provincial government? Do they have any consultants under contract? Just who are they running this force? We do not seem to know too much about it. HR. ROUSSEAU: I am sorry. I will just mention it there. IB-1 They are a - I do not think division would be the correct word - they are attached to the federal Department of Supply and Services. They are a group who determine space requirements, professional people.

They have nobody working with them unless they need consultation in any specific or technical area. But it is done by an agency of the federal Department of Supply and Services who have that sort of expertise that we were looking for, and the kind co-operation between the Department of Public Works and Services and the federal Department of Supply and Services had them available to the government of this Province. MR. NEARY: Do we have to pay for it or do they just come in - }fR. ROUSSEAU: Oh, there is payment required, payment of cost ,but there is just the cost incurred in the study. _MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the bon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. LUSH: Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Premier. I wonder if the Premier is in a position to specifically inform the House as to what criteria will be used in the distribution of the funds for the job creation programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER MOORES: In general terms, Mr.

Speaker, it will be in areas where it will assist any ongoing resource development in the future! in other words, if a project is done it will have some ongoing use to create jobs in the future as opposed to just make work. 1fR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. t () :1

February 7, 1977 Tape 36 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, again on the same subject of the programme to create jobs. I wonder would the Premier indicate how this programme is going to be administered, if a department has been identified or if a special administrator or administrative division will be designated for this purpose? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER :1-IOOP...ES: At the present time, Mr. Speaker, it i.s bei.ng ------- done by the four departments I mentioned.

In the case of Social Services it will be done by the employment officers in that department,once the projects have been approved on the basis I have said. In the case of Forestry,it is possible that it will be done by one of the Forestry people themselves•But if there is a local committee who can do the same job it would be done under their aegis. Equally in Fisheries, I would suggest, it probably will be mostly done by local fishermen's committees. This is the object of it. MR. SIMHONS: A supplementary. ~lR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

The hon. member for Burgee-Bay D'Espoir. t'IR • S H'MON S : I believe the Premier has indicated that the areas of the Province to be involved have been identified. I wonder would the Premier indicate to the House what these areas are? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREHIER HOORES: I have already said, Mr. Speaker, that gladly~ as soon as the projects have been identified they will be tabled in the House. It has to be done in consultation with local committees first to see the capabilities of each area as done.

But the only areas I can say it will be done is in the areas of Fisheries, Tourism, Forestry, and Social Assistance. There have been no, if the hon. member is worried, Mr. Speaker, no political areas identified. MR. SIMHONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . ~1R. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

February 7, 1977 Tape 36 IB-3 MR. SIMMONS: We are making history, Mr. Speaker, making history. MR. PECKFORD: That is right. MR. SIMMONS: One further supplementary. I wonder would the Premier indicate whether any of the funds involved are part of a federal-provincial cost-sharing,or does he anticipate that might be the case? ~ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I think I have answered that, Mr. Speaker. I said where t~ere are LIP projects that meet the criteria of eventual resource development area assistance,so to speak, that part of the programme will involve that.

It will not involve, for instance, a LIP project where there is a community hall, this sort of thing, as much as we would like to. But it is geared to the resource area. That, Mr. Speaker, is basically the - _MR. SIMMONS: No, but the $2 million, Mr. Premier? PREMIER MOORES: That $2 million is totally provincial, tlr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. NOLAN: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. Hr. Speaker, a <]uestion for the hon. Minister of }!an power.

I am wondering if the minister is aware of the fact that we have been informed that a major department store, national department store,or supermarket, I am sorry, located in the St. John's area has given notice to twelve or fourteen of their employees, the reason being they are moving their main accounting to Halifax? One, does he know. Secondly, would he take it upon himself to contact Dominion Stores,! am talking about, to see why it is that they joined so many others in moving and making Halifax the capital of everything in Atlantic Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower.

·February 7, 1977 Tape 37 PK- 1 Mr . Rousseau : I thought the only Dominion Stores that had any problems, in the Provine~, Mr. Speaker, were the ones in Labrador City and Wabush which are a hnndful of problems he caust> they are run from out of Quebec. No.I was not aware of it, but I will certainly take it upon myself to have the matter checked out. I was not aware of it, and I will have it checked out, and I will look into it and take it up with the appropriate officials. ~SPEAKER: The han. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health.

I w onder would the minister could indicate to the House whether or not there has been any consultation between his department and the Uenturist Association concerning proposed legislation to govern the activities of denturists in the Province? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. MR. H. _ COLLINS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there has been numerous meetings, Wheni say 'numerous' I should indicate what I mean by numerous, and that is, during the past year and a half possibly four or five meetings between the denturists and myself and the officials in the department. MR. RIDEOUT: -------- A supplementary. MR.

SPKAKF.R: A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I wonder could the minister be a bit more specific _ meetings could be meetings -and tell the House whether or not those meetings dealt specifically with the proposed legislation or draft legislation? MR._.§f !:!J<ER: The bon. Minister of Health. ~-· - !~.'- _cOLL.!_N.§_;_ Yes, generally speaking, Mr. Speaker, that was the purpose of the meetings. MR. ~IDEOUT: - ------ A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: -------- A supplementary. HR.

RIDEOUT: Has the minister made any commitment to the Denturist ----- - --- Association that he will consult with them before legislation is brought before this House? 1 0 0

February 7, 1977 Tape 37 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR . H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the meetings we have had have dealt with the need for legislation, and the type of legislation which the denturists would like to see. As I said there has been four or five meetings during the past year or fourteen or fifteen months. There is not a big lot that I can add, other than that I am looking forward to bringing in the appropriate legislation in this session. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is there somebody asking a supplementary? MR. F. ROWE: Yes. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: I wonder if the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker, could indicate whether there is in fact draft legislation in existence for the denturists and whether the denturists have been consulted on the draft legislation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: I am not sure if the hon. member is posing his question properly. I presume what he means is, have the denturists submitted proposals to us which they would like to see reflected in the legislation? That is the first part of the question. MR. F. ROWE: Would the hon. minister permit?

MR. H. COLLINS: Yes, go ahead. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. I am asking the minister, Mr. Speaker, whether or not there is draft legislation in existence for the denturists ' ,and whether the denturists have been consulted with respect to this draft legislation , and when and where? MR. F. ROWE: MR. ?YEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. CObLINS: The draft legislation is in the process, Mr. Speaker, of being drafted. MR. F. ROWE: It is in th e process. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. s. A. NEARY : Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the 1.0'7

February 7, 1977 Tape 37 PK- 3 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: hon. Minister of Health. ----- MR. SPEAKER: ------- Having already referred to the hon. gentleman, I will bear in mind that any other hon. member who wishes to ask a question on that subject. I would like to put a question, Sir, to the hon. Minister of Health. I would like to ask the minister if hE! has yet received a report from Dr. Selikoff in connection with the study that is being done in Baie Verte,on the miners in Baie Verte,concerning asbestosis in the community of Baie Verte,and amongst the miners of Baie Verte?

Has the minister received the report? If so, is it the intention of the minister to table the report? And what action, if any, has been taken on the report if it has been submitted to the minister? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the report to which the hon. ~ember refers is a report which was done by the Mount Sinai University in New York, who commissioned Dr. Selikoff to go into Baie Verte at the request of the unions at Baie Verte, the Steelworkers Union.

I might say that this government supported the doctor and his team financially, and in every other way which we could support,every other area where he requested support. He has promised me a copy of the report. The report will be made, of course, to the people who asked him to do it. To my knowledge the report has not been made. I can categorically say I have not received a copy. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: ------ Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware if the individuals who were examined, the miners, ,the individual miners in Baie Verte, have they received their reports?

My understanding is that Dr. Selikoff is going to notify the individuals first, and then give the various parties copies of the report after, including the minister. Have the miners received their report yet on an individual basis? MR. H. COLLINS: 10R

February 7,1977 Tape 38 All-1 MI:..U.COLLINS: knowledge,Hr. Speaker,Dr. Selikoff had not presented his report to anyone. I might be off base there,but I have a promise from him · that 1 '"ould get a copy and I am sure if there were copies received by the miners, the individuals in Baie Verte ,that ,.re would have heard of it. ~ lR. NEAHY: A supplementary. tm. SPEAKER: A supplementary. }fit. NEAHY: Could the minister tell the House when he expects to get a report on this urgent matter of occupational health hazard in Baie Verte? tilL SPEAKJ:R: The han. Hinister HR. 1!. CULLINS: Hr.

Speaker the original date which we anticipated receiving the report on the basis of a conversation with the doctor from clew York was September. I know that there has been some discussion since then because additional information· was needed and so on. It was my hope that we would have received the report by this time, but,as I said, we have not got it yet .It should be coming momentarily. ~m. NEARY: A f.i na] supplementary. A final supplementary. ~11l.

NEARY : Hould the minister tell the !louse if the government itself, without having the Selikoff Report) has the government done anything about this occupational hazard in Baie Verte? Have t!•e government taken any steps to eliminate the dust menace and the asbestos,dust from the asbestos, and have there been any more monitoring done than was done there hefore? Would the minister give us a progress report on jnst what the government itself has done through its own initative, without having to wait for Dr. Selikoff' s i:eport? MlL SPEAKE!{: The hon. minister. ~11< • .!!.:_QlLL INS_:_ Hr.

Speaker that question would be more appropriately askcu or oae of my colleagues, either the Minister of Consumers Affairs and Envlronment or the ~1inister of Mines and Energy . 109

1·\:hruary 7 ,1977 tape 38 AIJ-2 Ill: . NliAI!Y: \~ell,I put the question to the ~in ister of liines and The surplementary question . Could t he lliniste r tell us, the (·linlster of Hines and Energy , what is beL1g done in connection with the ashestos problem in Raie Verte? its own? What has the gover nment done on MR. SPI:AJCF.~: ~m. l'cCKFORD: The hon. ·.dnister . Nr . Speakcr,the Dept . of !lines and Ener)::y, the Dept. of IIC:

I) th, the Oept . of Consumer Affairs and Environmcnt ,an J there ls some connection with t he Dept . of !anpower and Industrial Relations, have been continuing to monitor not only the ashestosls prohl.el'l fn Raie verte but also probl ems in Labrador City, Wabush and other mines around t lte province, particularly St . Lat~rcnce where there had been a health prolllcm . There has been an increase in the number of inspectots that c:~mc e>n duty under the Dept . o( Mines and l::ner gy over the last yea r to a!<sist in this .

And we are anticipating this year to increase that scnf( even fu rther to help monitor in a more efficient t<ay than has h<'cn done in the p:l:~ t. 1\dtlitlonally <IS all hon . nembers of the !louse know,the re was a major conferen ce chn t was convened by the ~linister of Hanpot<er ancl Industrial !:elations befo r e Chrl.stmas of jndustry ,l.abour and other interested pnrti~s to ascertain from them presicel y what way they want government to ac:t as it r<>lates to health safety standards in the Jlt:ovl,nce .

And out of that conference bas come a committee which is to t:ecoiMiend to ~:o vernment whether in fact there should be one a~ency under whose :1e1:is the proper efficient manner can be done for inspection and proper protection for the people in Baie Verte as well as other mines in the rrovlnce. I IH . SI'I!AKER: tlR . NI!ARY: a~ . s t'F.I\lilll< : f rom l.APolle. lion. member (or l.ewispo r te . Mr. Speaker . Order , please ! J will have to hea r the hon . gentleman 11 0

Fchntary 7,1977. Tape 3!1 AH-3 !If\ . NEARY : Mr. Spcake r,l am not satisfied with the answer the hon . mcmher gave and I ~1ish to debate it durinl:l the late show on Thun;day. ~II\ . SI'EAKF.R: L bel tcvc 1 had rccot~ni:tecl the hon . member for Y.agle River as l recall - or l.cwispol:"te. I am very sorry. ~IR . WlllTF : M.·.

Soeaker , J have a question for the '1ini.ster of J.uucation and it is related to the School Attendance Act . ~!ould the ~lini stc r tc ll the llou.<H! whe ther or not there has been some chang•!s in the School ,\ttcon<lancc Act in terms of the number of sc.hoom attcndA.nce of(i.cers throup.hout the p rov ;Lnce,and if in fact they have all been t iven their notices? The hon . l!linister of Education . 'tr. . IIOUSJ.:: ----- ''r . Speaker 1 there has been no change in the Act as of the present time, the specific act.

We were phasin~ down for a number of vcars the attenda nce offi.c.ers because, at the suggestion of !:choo l honrd~ .:~round the ,,rovin ce. The school attendance officers , the rru11nt offi.cem they call them these times,have noc been very effective . And •~e still hAve the !';<:hool attendance officer~< •u r-hP n"""rr""'"r. <:nm" of them a re :<t i 11 workin~-,but we are phasing them down. A supplcmcntarv. ~11 :. WIII"IT: Coutcl the minister tell u.c: wh:1t the lone ranr.e plan i:; ln terms n f phasi ng them down . ?

Will they be all phased out or will there be three CIT (our left in the province ~ and also will the supervisors of schooilt nttenda nce in St. John ' s be retained . \~ill that position be retained? 1 I 1

Frhru~ r v 7, 1977 1'31'1.' ~0 . 39 ~.'}1 - 1 ~'!\.:_SPF.AKFfS The hon . 'l:lnister of Educat ion. ~P. !lOUSE: The supervisor is the departmental offic:l~l whfl will he 2ath1>rin?, the statistics and will he cht>ckinl' 1-'lth rrinclnal~ f rom the various schools , or the various boards, ~hflut :~ttendanCl' , de.'tl iN\ with it lit 11 departmPntal level. lt i.s our 1ntcntion , ves.to phase down comnletelv thP school nttendancP officers in the distric ts. ~Ill . WIITTE: A sunplemcntarv, ~lr. Speaker. I!_R. SPF~J.\:.

A surn 1 ~>mentarv. ~~T.F_:_ C:onl d the ministl.'t ind icate then "'ho will h•Wf? r~sponsih!U. tv in f'ach of the iltcOJS for thl' enforcement of the Srhool Attendance Act? "~ . .!IOU.:<;!.:_ The enforcement wUl he dont> throu~h thl' ~chool princ1r>nlR, throur.h the district offices, thl' hoa r ds , th<' dist r ict offi C"s,:tnd the official ar the der~rtl'lent . JI!R. Sl"'OJNS: /1. supplemt>ntnrv . A surnlcmenatary; the hon . membPr for ~fll . S HI~ONS : ------ ---. ~t r.

Spe11ker , in viaw of the answer just ~iven hy the mlni:<ter 1would he indicate when hl' i nt<'n<ls t o tntroduce tht- nnrrroprinte chnnp.P-s in lesr,i.slation of thE' !louse to alloH school h<>:~r(l nfff.ces to adm1.nistt>r the act? At the moment it ls the mfnistE'r's resronsthility and not any districts concf'rnrd . noes he Intend tn hrtnr. in lep,islnti.on concernin~ th<' m.~ t t<'r :tn<l if so when? '!R. SPF:/I.KP.R: ----·- ThE' hon . 'finilltt-r <>f F.d ucatfon. Th:t:: is h<>Jnp loolll'd into, 'lr. SpE>ak<>r.

Thf' w:.v the :~ct is now is t he f;tct that school orJnJcp :.ls make rPr>r<-sent.ntion to thP v;~rious school attendance office!'s and they will h<' tlolnl" that dirrctly ~lith the pC'!rsonneJ we hnve here at thP dcp:lrtmf'nt rnther than to a person in the field.

Fcbruilry 7, 1977 T:~.pe No . JQ NM - 2 MIL SPF.AKF.R: The hon . member f.or Windsor - Ruchans followed by - 1 think 1 previously 1ndicated that 1 would recor,nize thP hon . memb~r for F.il~le River next, so the hon. member for "•tr.1 e River followed hy the hon . member for Windsor - Buchans. \fr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines and Enf'rr,y .

Could the minister tell us whether he is ~rcpared to take nny action a~ainst the desperate exrloitntion of this Province ' s r~sources by Quebec , in particular Knob f.akP where rilw iron ore is mined out of this Province's sot 1 totnlly by Quebec miners for shipment for Scheffervi.lle where i.t then provides the almost t01:al operation of the iron ore plant th<'r«>? r helif've that in the months of October. rlovemher and lll'cembPr ei~:hcy rer cent of the iron ore keel"ing the Schcfferville r.olnP. came from this Province's soil . ~EKF:,~:. TJ e hon . >liros t er of Mines and Fnergy .

That problem is presently bein~ looked nt vrry seriously by gove r nment and when any action is taken the hon. memh<'r w U 1 be advised . ~tr . Speaker, 1 run dis satisfied with the aMwer and 1 wish to debate it on the Late Show on Thursday . 'W . I:Lf (':tl'f': NR . SPF.AKF.R: >.!R :_ _F_l:..l~J:!.T: Mr . Speaker . The hon . member for Windsor-Buchans . 'lr. Sr>eaker . this 11ucstinn to the hon.

Premier. \4ould the Premier advise the House that in 1 i.P.ht of the fact that thr C:abtnct h11ve had the 8uchans Task Force for the past rou~hly sc>vP.n months, \o.'Ould he Indicate to the llouse what r ccommend3tions of that Task Force the Cabinet or government is now nrepa r ed to tmplC'Ment:? "} ... SPF.I\l<ER :_ The hon . the Premier .

'FE'hruarv 7 • 1 Cl 77 Tape No . 3Cl Nl-1 - 3 PR~TER '-101'!_~ Some have alreadv heen done, >lr. Spen.k!'r. anti others will be done in conjunctio n with th<' princJpa)H concerned , and as the deci sions ar e made the hon . member and the nousP wi 1.1 be advised . ~·- FtrGII!...:___ II Slmpl e men t ;~ry , ~lr. Speake r . -~-_:~lQ:_n.:_ II supplementsn:v : tht> hon. ~entlemn.n on a supplementary. HR . F1.1C:IIT_:_ The Premit>r indica t ed t hat some have already hcen clonf'. llnart from the incornoration,could he name one please? PRF.MlF.R MOOORFS: ThE' bon . member just did . It was the Incorpora t ion , 'lr.

Speaker . II supplemt>ntnrv, ~r . Spea ker . I1R. SPF.AKPR; Orde-r, plen.se! ~fR • FLIGHT : ---- - A surr>Jementary . 1'1R. SPEAKER : T will hear a sup plementa ry. Would the Premi er indicate t o the House if that is indeed the only one that has been implemented? ~1 R. SPRAKER: Order, rlea se ! Order, please! l wish to draw to the attentio n of the hon. member to my right that questions shouJ d not h<' :~rr.umentilt lvE' or tend to repeat what h:~s already hc<'n :~skecl or nnswerPd , :ts the case might be . Rut the question has now been asKed . MR.

SPF.AKF.R: The hon . ~entJ.e.man .ius t asked a f1 ues tion and I have to wnit to see whether t here is any r eplv to it . The hoo. me~ber for Windsor-Buchans . ~~Fl.TGHT: Mr. Speaker, I either djd not ~et an answer to my (! II~'St.ion,o r I'IY question w~ts rulPd out of order . Jf my question w~~ our of order , I will rephrase it . '1R • l'F.C:Kl"ORO : On a poirt of or der, Mr. S'fleaker. l:s the hon . member for Windsor - Buchans now :~sking 11 question or is he up on n ooint of Clr<IE'r. .lust what is he ont M'R. SPF.AKFR; 1H

Frhrunrv 7 , 1077 T:lpe Nn. '}<) NM- 4 The hon . member for IUndl>or - lluchan~t (Mr. Fli~tht) ~sked for ~ cla rification,t echnically; actua lly vhnt wal> whether his question was nut of order because if it wns he asked he would ljk<' to rerhrase a question on the same tOf'iC. The nn:<:wnr would have to be that the former question was out oforder ln l ts wording 'ln:l 1 would recognize htm now to ask A question on the s~e subiect , rephrased . ~IR. FT.TGIIT: Thank you_. l'lr . Sneaker.

Would the Premier ;tdvise thr llou.•H! wh<tt, if any , recommendations of th<' Buchan:<: Tns!< Fore<' hiiV<' h<'en imp] emented apart from th<' tncomo r ation of llurhnn:<:? Th<' hon . Prem1<'r. P~F.MIIR MOOR!~ The situation, ~r. Speaker. verv simply is that that is the onlv one,and not only that . Sir, but ~R. Fl.IC.IIT: --· ------- Tnaudi l>le PRI'MTF:R 'IOORF.S: ~!n. Th<tt ls the onlv one to my knowledr,c, let us rut it th:u: wAv.

There lll3V he others as well. llut T sttonJtlv rcrommend, Sir , thnt before any other further decisions arr made wr look at the T:~sk Force on Buchans here in the !louse , nlu:<: rhr nt"w potcnr lnl of th~> lluch:ms ar ea mlner.:~lly, plus 11 n<>w ,. nopronch by Pric<' Newfoundland who have taken over the municinal r<'~oons ll>ili tv n,; O('('IOS('d to AS/\RC:O hecause, Mr. Srcaker, there h:we heC>n ll r,reat many more con,;idcrations to he tilken i.nto considc:ration since th:~t T:~sk Porcr r~('e>rt 1~as i.n. 1 1 :;

February 7, 1977, Tape 40, Page 1 -- apb HR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde followed by the bon. gentleman for LaPoile, time permitting. MR. ROWE: I had a qqestion for the han. the Minister of Health but I will direct it to the han. the Minister of Justice, Sir. As I understand it,the preliminary draft of the denturist legislation is presently being drafted. Could the minister give an undertaking to the House that before legislation is brought into the House concerning the denturists, that they will be consulted before actual legislation is brought into the House of Assembly? }!R.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: My colleague the hon. the Minister of Health is not present in the Chamber at this time, but my understanding from him is that there has been very close consultation with the denturists. This is my understanding from him. The bon. the Minister of Health is now in the House and he can answer the question effectively and fully and completely. MR. ROWE: The question for the benefit of the Minister of Health, Mr. Speaker,is this: I understand that draft legislation is presently taking place for the denturists.

What I am asking the Minister of Health is; before legislation concerning the denturists is brought before the House of Assembly, will the Denturists' Association be consulted before such legislation is brought before the House of Assembly? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall a piece of legislation which has ever been brought before this House, certainly since this administration has been in office, without consultation with the individuals or the groups involved if, in fact, it dealt with professional groups.

Now it was said that legislation is now being drafted,and I suspect that all of the people involved will be given an opportunity - when is something else - but they will be given an opportunity to see the legislation. 11fl

February 7, 1977, Tape 40, Page 2 -- apb A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. ~R. SPEAKER: I will allow one further supplementary and the time will then be transpired. MR. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Health aware of the existence of a letter in which he states specifically to the legal counsel for the Denturists' Association that he will consult with the draft legislation hefore the actual legislation is brought before this House of Assembly? ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: I do not have the letter before me. Maybe the hon. the member has.

Obviously there has been a hit of collusion between legal counsel and other people involved. It is a well known fact that there is some sympathy on that side of the House for some of the people who have been making statements in recent days. If the hon. member has a letter there, let him read it. MR. SIMMONS: And some harassment on that side. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Motion 1. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Direct Sellers Act." (Bill No. 2) , carried. On motion, Bill No. 2 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.

SPEAKER: Motion 2. - - - ·-- - Motion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Newfoundland Consumer Protection Act." (Bill No. 3), carried. On motion, Bill No. 3 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 3. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Petty Trespass Act." (Bill No. 4), carried. ltl

February 7, 1977, Tape 40, Page 3 -- apb On motion, Bill No. 4 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 4. ------- Motion, the hon. the Minister of Consumer Affairs and the Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Attachment Of Wages Act." (Bill No. 5), carried. On motion Bill No. 5 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.. SP.EAKER: Motion 5. 11 ~

Februarv 7, 1977 Tape 41 IB-1 Motion, the bon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Legislative Disabilities Act," carried. (Bill No. 6) On motion Bill No. 6 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. the }finister of Education to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Memorial University Act," carried. (Bill No. 7) On motion Bill No. 7 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the bon.

Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Statutues Act," carried. (Bill No. 8) On motion Bill No. 8 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. President of the Council to introduce a bill, ''An Act To Establish The Newfoundland Statistics Agency," carried. (Bill No. 9) On motion Bill No. 9 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han.

Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Maintenance Orders (Enforcement) Act," carried. (Bill No. 10) On motion Bill No. 10 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. ~!inister of Consumer Affairs and Environment to introduce a bill, "An Act To Change The Corporate Name Of The Society Of Industrial Accountants Of Newfoundland," carried. (Bill No. 11) On motion Bill No. 11 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: Order 1, the Address in Reply. The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the debate which has now been called is, as Your Honour has just said, the Address in Reply debate ,and it is not only the opening debate of a session by tradition and by practice,although interestingly enough not by the 11~

February 7, 1977 Tap!! 41 lB-2 Hn • ROBERTS : the rules - there is no requirement in the rules that we begin with it, indeed even that we begin with the Throne Speech - not only is it the openin & debate,the first debate of the ses sion, but is it generally considered one of the mos1: important single debates bec ause, 1-1 r.

Speaker, it gives the House, the members of the House, the fifty of us who sit here, the opportunity to survey the whole range of public affairs in this Province, to have a look at all of the problems that confront this Province today, to outline some of our concerns, some of our hopes, some of our thoughts and to put fo rth some of the ideas which we think should be looked at and to have a look at~hopefully in a con~tructive sense,such 1deas as the government may put forward. l t is a grand in ouest on the Province , I guess, in the traditional sense of the word in wh:lch that term was always used.

It is a chance to survey the whole range of public affairs and a chance to consider any topic of significance . Now that is very different from most other debates,becaus e while we do not always aclhcre colllT'Ic t ely to the ru les, llr. Speaker, Your Honour 1 ~0

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 42 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. has had occasion from time to time to bring myself and others of the House to attention, to recall to our attention the rules of relevancy. The Throne Speech debate, I would think, Mr. Speaker, it is almost impossible to be irrelevant to the Throne Speech debate. That is why it is designed that way. It is designed to let each member, and so I hope that each of the fifty members will speak. I know many of the members personally.

The eighteen men and women who sit with me in the Opposition ranks, we have often talked, and I know that each of them has specific concerns, some of them affecting one's district, some affecting the entire Province. I thought the type of speech which the gentleman from Exploits (Dr.

Twomey) gave on Opening Day was perhaps a good balance, a balance in which he expressed some concerns on matters that affected his own district, the people who have sent him here to speak for them as their member in the House, and on the other hand some concerns which are obviously of importance to him and which, as a member, he feels should be and, therefore, properly are brought to this House, concerns of importance to the Province. He made some remarks about separatism, about the implications of the election of the Parti Quebecois government in our neighbouring province of Quebec.

I thought those were well-made. I have not had a chance to see the Hansard yet. Indeed, Sir, I would hope- and I will say, Mr. Speaker, that if it is possible to be irrelevant to the Throne Speech, I suspect I am about to be irrelevant to the Throne Speech, but I think that it might be permitted - I would hope that we can arrange, Sir, to get Hansard early this year, because it is of no real value to the members of the House,or of little or lesser real value unless we can have it hopefully, the morning after.

Now I realize that it is a big job, particularly when we have had one of our lengthier sessions, and many thousands of words are being spewed out and recorded and to be transcribed. My understanding of it is that the holdup is not with the Hansard staff, that they perform 1.21

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 42 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. admirably, often working very long hours and very late into the night. But the transcripts, the typed scripts,are usually available the next morning, but the problem is in the printing process. And the Minister of Public Works, who I assume is responsible for the government's printing office or whatever it is called, is not in his seat. MR. NEARY: Printing and Photography. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? MR. NEARY: Printing and Photography. MR. ROBERTS: Printing and Photography Di.vision, but it is in the Public Works and Services Department 1- is it not?

The minister is not in his seat now, but I would hope that he could look into this. I do not know what demands are made upon tl1at office. I can imagine they are considerable. And it is often hard to say whether something is more important or less impGirtant, but I do suggest that something ought to be done 1and hopefully and surely something can be done to improve the speed of Hansard. I am not particularly unhappy at this point, not at all, that we do not have_last session's Hansard. I mean~there it is now and it is of interest, I suppose, to Lhe historians.

If some poor benij;(hted... graduate student in years to come is unfortunate enough to be assigned by his tutor as a thesis topic, you know, the House of Assembly session of 1975-1976, then he will have to read them, but I venture to say that there are very fe•• others, unless we have some masochists in our midst. MR. NOLAN: _MR. l.JOOllY: Dissertation in insanity. you should be grateful that they are not video taped. MK. ROBERTS: The Minister of Finances says that we should be grateful that they are not video taped. I am not so sure about that. He was not bere on Opening Day.

He was off in Ottawa at a real first ministers' conference, but it was called, "The Minister of Finances' Conference." lie and his fellow ministers were there carving up the corpse of the poor, battered Canadian taxpayer a little further, trying to make the pint

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 42 Page 3 - mw ~lr . Roberts . of milk fill the quart bottle, the basic problem which confronts the minister today, and thus he missed the Opening Uay . Ue missed my comment,which I will repeat for his benefit only since he raised the matter,that if our proceedings here were to be televised it might very well result in a great improvement of the calibre of debate, the decorum of the members on all sides. Even, I venture to suggest, possibly on occasion, the minister has a little role. DR. FARRELL: Would the Hansard be live or edited? MR.

S~IDNS: If it were to be live, it would be up to you. MR. kOSERTS: TI1e President of the Council asked whether it would be live or edited? There is a motion on the Order Paper by my friend from l..ewisporte (tlr. White) if ever we can get to it, it is fairly far down the list, but I think the suggestion thnt i1e wishes to put, as I understand it, and I quite agree with it, is that we should possibly look at the Ottawa experience. My understanding is that Ottaw11 will tal'<' the entire thing. It will not be done by the beoadcasting companies, it will be done by the House of Commons themselves .

And that will then be available and a media agen cy - a terrible phrase, but we have never (o und a better one - but,you know, the telev ision station or the CBC or the private CTV network can tape whatever they wish. I cannot conceive of anybody

February 7, 1977 Tape 43 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: in his right mind wanting to watch three hours of the House of Assembly. MR. F. WHITE: CBC will be carrying six hours of the House of Commons a day on cable. HR. ROBERTS : My colleague tells me that CBC will be carrying six hours of the House 6f Commons a day on cable, but I cannot see a very large audience for that. But nonetheless - MR. DOODY: Will that pre-empt As The Stomach Turns? MR. ROBERTS : Well it might replace As The World Turns, at times it looks like LauEh In.

I mean, but quite seriously, well we can all agree that, you know, an unrestricted diet of the House of Assembly would be enough to, I suppose, qualify one for psychiatric help under an even tightened up MCP plan. ~1R. J. NOLAN: Who will be the sponsor? The manufacture of libruim? MR. !(OBERT'S: - ---- -- The fact remains, Mr. Speaker, that the more publicity given to this House, not only the better for the House, I think it would imp,rove us tremendously if people saw what went on, and not only improve us but I think people would get a far different impression.

Of course,what is reported from the House is often, you know, the colourful or the dramatic or the unusual. You know, all we have heard about the House of Commons in England recently,as I recall it, unless we have seen some specialist material or a British newspaper,is the evening when was it a labour gentleman got angry and went and grabbed the Mace, and went for a Tory member or vice-versa, and I mean that does not happen, it does not even happen here every day. It has not happened to my knowledge ever. Once the Haec w:1s seized dj strained for debt back in 1833 or something. MR.

NOLAN: ------- Was it ever paid? MR._RO~ERTS: No, and I am told the Mace could never be found. The Mace was never found afterwards. But, you know, the fact is the House does do a great deal of useful work, and if it were to be televised I think it would help greatly. But, Mr. Speaker, if it cannot be

February 7, 1977 Tape 43 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: ------ televised,and I suspect that is probably fairly far down the list of priorities, and maybe in a year of restraint, you know, w.e could restrain that without affecting the body politic in a mortal sense. To come back to the Hansard point,if we cannot televise the House, then let us at least get the Hansard out the next morning. Now I do not know any reason why we cannot get it out. MR. HICKMAN: I move vJe r,o up and find out. MR. ROBERTS: The House Leader, I thank him.

You know, I can tell him,because I have checked on this,that the Editor of Hansard tells me that he and his staff are able to get their work done fairly quickly, It may not be a final edited version - a very 800d question; what do you edit, if anything, ·on Hansard?- but certainly we could have transcripts or typescripts available. And I made that reference with reference to the han. gentleman from Exploits (Dr. Twomey), because I would like to have read his remarks on opening day, and had the opportunity to consider them.

I did not have too much attention to pay the close heed to them I would have liked to, becaufH'! I had to speak following him, and I was trying to get, you know, my own thoughts and notes in order • So I attempted to have - I was not here today_! was trapped out of town by the bad weather yesterday and did not get until lunch hour- but I had asked my staff to try and get me a Hansard, and I am told it is not yet available. Well,I would simply hope that, you know, can be remedied. It is a new session, and let us forget what is passed. I mean,last year they got bogged dot<n about the middle of May.

And ,you know, I understand the bottleneck is not up in the Hansard staff we have a very efficient and a very effective staff, do marvelous work, ThP bottleneck is in the Printing and Photography Division. They have too much work. Well,let the work be rearranged, let the work be - just a few brief notes of some of the headin~s I intend to touch upon. It is only about eight inches thick, that file. 12:1

Febl:"Uary 7, 1977 MR. lUCKMAN: MR. RO~ MR. HICKMAN: MR. ROBERTS: Tape 43 PK - 3 \olhy hnve all those motions u11 uaily? What is the ~nister of - l~y not have those on the Orner Paper on Wednesdays.? Well the Minister of Justice makes another good suggestion that why cio we have, I think, twenty-two motions on the Order Paper today of which teo or twelve are Prtvate Members' Notices of Motions, It uight be an idea, Mr. Speaker, it might save a considerable amount of paper, help to perserve our forest resources~ if they were printed only on Wednesday. I am not sure why they are printed every day.

I do not know why again the rules, I do not think the rules require it, it may just be tradition. In any event, Sir, let me come back to opening day because listene<l with ~~treat inte-rest to what th.e gentleman f-rom .Exoloits had to say. 1 listened with equal interest to what his colleage from Bonavisca North (M-r. Cross) had to say . I will touch upon that later because there I do not find myself quite as heartilY in svm!'>~.thv. 1 am certainly not in agreement , but I would not want the gentleman from Exploits to think that I am in agreement with everything he s<tJ d either.

Indeed if that happened one of us would be perhaps in somewhat stranp.e company. And while I know that politics - Well here is Hansnrd now, Sir, you have only to ask, it appears, it appea r s, but it should be sent out in the morning, Sir . In any evenc . on opening day l said the Speech from the Throne was the 12 fi

February 7, 1977 Tape 44 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: emptiest document I had ever seen in my ten or eleven years, whatever it now is, in the House of Assembly. And upon reflection I think that is an accurate and really a somewhat kind description of that document. I spoke with my friend and colleague from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) who unfortunately is not here today. He will be here,he tel l s me,tomorrow. A touch of ill health,I gather. He tells me that in his twenty-odd years in the House he has never seen a document ~ith less substance in it. I spoke to my friend from Burin-Placentia West (Mr.

Canning), as the seat is now named, who in his time in the House,which is exactly comtemporaneous with that of the gentleman from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood), he had never seen an emptier document. There is just nothing in it. Tn thinking it over in the last few days trying to put together a few remarks for a talk today, Mr. Speaker, I can only come to one , there is only one word that upon reflection, I think, accurately describes the Throne Speech. I think it is a disgrace, a complete and an utter disgrace, the programme which the government present.

Before anybody on the other side leaps up and says I am somehow bringing the office or the person of the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province into either partisan controversy or into dispute,or casting doubt upon his repute, let me hasten to say that we all know that the Throne Speech,of course, while it is the Speech from the Throne and while we can refer to it if we wish as the Gracious Speech, it is nothing more or less than the Premier's or the administration's- the Premier normally being the vehicle by which the administration conveys their advice - the administration's speech.

It is written by the Cabinet,and His Honour 1 I have no doubt,is consulted and so he should be. I am sure that if he has any wishes they are heeded. .Was it Bagehot said, "The duty of the Crown is to encourage and to warn and to advise." does. 127 That is all that the Governor

February 7, 1977 Tape 44 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: So the speech which we had read to us last Wednesday, Sir, really,in my view and in the view of my colleagues,was just a complete and an utter disgrace.

To think that we have been called together to open a session in this year of 1977 when there are the problems we face in this Province, the difficulties confronting our people, the issues that need to be dealt with by the Queen's ministers, to think that this is what we are granted and this is what we must ber,in with, Sir, I think it is a disgraceful show and I think it is one of which every member of the ministry should be heartily and thoroughly ashamed. Now, Sir, it would have been a great speech if it had been the first speech of this administration.

If they had come into office just a few months ago following a general election, if they had gathered themselves around the Cabinet table and said, "Let us address ourselves now to governing this Province and let us go to the Legislature and let us outline our concerns, our analysis of the state of affairs of the Province and our priorities," then it would have been in many ways an acceptable speech. I say that because much of the "mrcHng in it, Mr: Speaker, I do not find objectionable. I ,.,auld not find it in the least bit objectionable.

Many of the intentions stated in it I can only welcome because they should be welcomed,because they are laudable and sound, not all of them but many of them. The on]y difficulty, Nr. Speaker, is that, I think without exception, we have heard them all before,time and time again. 1\nd what we are getting is not a new broth but stale porridge, old porridge, stale, stale and staler. If we just look at one or two of the headings, Sir.

I have gone through the exercise of taking some of the topics in the speech, topics into which government activity is organized,and just put through one of two or them and looked back and some of them sounded familiar. So I got out my little file of previous Throne Speeches -Tory and dragged them out. There have been six previous 128

February 7, 1977 Tape 44 IB-3 ~IR . ROBERTS: :o;peeches. There were two tn 1972. Then there was the 1973 session , 1974 session. There were two sessions in 1975, one before the ~cneral election and one after when we were called together to remedy the hypocritical programme which the government had confronted and had taken to the people of the Province and on which they were presumably re-electe d .

We were called in then for the truth as opposed to the election budcet and \ole got the present Ninist er of Finance • s budget which told the story as it really was,and then of course there is this particular speech, the one we are now debating, Sir, which was the seventh in line. There is a line - it is on page 2 as I recall it, Sir, of this yea r' s speech,

F~hr uar v 7 . 1977 Taoe No. 45 and I am ouotin~ .1 ust a portion of it but hon. P.Pntl~men l think will believe that J ~m quotiny. in conte xt ancl quotinA fairly . tf they do not T invite them to p.et out their own file of throne sneeches and to read :tlonp.; with Roberts if they so wish. There is a line on page two that, ··~ty government have pr eonred n pro~ramme of resource development." And "~- 1 that is the pith and substance of a part.iculnr oort1on . Well that sounded familtnr, Sir , so I went ~ack nnd,lo and behold, In the> ~!nrch 1, 1<!72 spet>Ch, thc f:unous one- elm: session before Mr .

S nun<ll' r~· somi'Whllt mystPrious rPs1r.nation was nre sented to l!'is Honou r the Lieu t enant-Go vern or -no more I'!)'Sterious, I mir.ht odd th.a n the resir .na tion of that Tory MP t he other tiny out in Western Canad 11 . :1 man from British Columbia ,and tha t is quite a story too I untierstnnd . But i.n nny eve>nt Ln the one-day session , the March l st. , which was t hr ell'ction prop.ramme 1 of course,Your Ronour , at that 'ltllP.P Your llf'nour had not vent~tred forth i nt o th e public life In thP r•l e><'te>d llt>nsc.

Your 11onour may not have read it ~o1.th close -'lt:t!'ntion so You r Honour will perhnps permit me to refresh hon . j>CntJPmt>n's mcmm:ies. "A determin at ion to hrinr. forth I' lam: .'\nd I'Tt't:r:lmrne!l to t>nRure an :tct i.ve nnd well nlanne-d prop.ramme­ of drvt'lorml'nt .

" So in five years , Sir , nlmo:>t to the day, fifty- " Inc> "lonths . we had come from"a dete r mination to b rin~t forth nlans nnd pror.rammes to ensure an :lctive and well nlann ed pror.ramrne of clt'vPlol'm<'nt" to a commitment tha t'1my p,overnment have preoared n rrogrnmme of t'esource development :• Pretty suhstant tal stuff for ft ve vea:-s . l.rl us look at Fisheries . The present speed hns in it nmonP. ntht'r thtnr.s fout: ref<>rences to che Ptshet'ies .

There is t he st~tc>mcnt th.at the 200 mile limit rt>presents the greatest op r>ortunitv for r,row th and development, and i.t P.oes on and tells us 1l Is c!lscntinl that a comnrehenl'live api'TORch, one which builds on l.iO

Fehruarv 7, 1977 Tape No, 45 NM- 2 'IR. RORF, RTS : the advantage of the inshore, mid-water and offshore fishery. Another CJUOtation, "My ~overnment have been working to .1.ttract nf'w Investment capital into the fishinr: industry." And then, "Mv government will be introducin~ a programme of assil'tance for new products along with a pro~ramme to encourage processors to undertake more advanced processing." That is this year's fisheries programme. That is essentially what the Minister of Fisheries brought to Cahinet and his colleagues fell all over themselves.

T said, "Great, that is more substantial than anything elsf' that any other minister brought into the Cahinet lmt does it sound familiar~" Well let us trot hack, Sir, through some f'f the others because fisheries has been,and properly so, a constant concern of throne speeches.

Bilek in 1 'l72. the ,.Jorious one-day session, we werf' told that ''the Department of Fisheries would be grpatly expanded immediately so that it can provide grel'ter assistance and information to the f lshermPn of this Province!' It has been expanded but I a1'\ not so surf' what greater information it is proviilinp, any fishermen in this Prov1.nce. We were told there would he a bait assistance programme f'Stahlishecl,anrl the only bait that was established, Sir, was a little f'lE'ction hait.

We were told there would he an inexpensive shRrerl cost involvinr: Ottawa, an inexpensive shared cost insurance rrop,ramme covering the loss of fishing gear. Hell now that has n fami1 iar ring,does it not, Sir?

Back in March 1972- since then of course we have had the scandal of the fishinp: gear replacement programme where the government under the present Minister of Health as Minister of Fisheries introduced a rro~ramme of gear replacement and T suppose I cannot say too much about it because of course two individuals in fact are presently beforf' the courts chargeil with crimes or alleged crimes p;rowi.nf' out of that programme. But there is a grent rleal more to com<' out, because that is all the government have done.

Oh the present Minister of Fisheries recently set up a committee, four years and ten months after the commitment was made we had a committee 1 :l I

February 7, 1977 Tape No. 45 NM- 3 Hr. Roberts: set up to look into it and consider it. We are told that - this is a grabber, Mr. Speaker, this is a grabber~'will immediately embark on a programme to encourage the establishment of additional advanced reprocessing faci~ities for fish within the Province !' Now that was in 1972. In 1977 we have come forward. Now the words a.re"we .will be introducing a programme of ass i stance for new products along with a p r ogramme to encourage processors to undertake more advanced processing!' That ts what we have done in five years, Sir, in five ttinisters of Flnheries.

In 1972 we were going to immediately embark on a programme, and now we will te introducing a programme, some immediately. In 1973 another Speech from the Throne came along and once again it was time for the annual statement about fisheries. And what were we told there? Introduce legislation, this one is familiar. 1-1~ have all heard about this one.

If this where You Bet Your Life Sir, thi s,Your Monour,is where you would win the big prize , because this was the Throne Speech where we were solemnly told that legislation w~s going to be introduced to establish the $40 million fund for the construction of deep water fisb.ing boats, the great

February "7 ,1977 Tape 46 AH-1 ~R. ROBERTS: trawler fleet, the twenty trawler fleet, the twenty of them. And indeed the present Minister of Health,who at that stage gloried in the position of Hinister of Fisheries, I think at one stage told the House in response to a question from one of my colleagues that tenders were about to be called for the construction of those ships. Well,of course,Sir not a keel has been laid,not a kael has touched the water and nothing -more has been heard of from that day to this.

True, we did have the ~culpin class, those three magnificant boats built by the fine people up in the Marystown Shipyard. That cost an outrageous amount each. I do not know their names,but they are called th<.' Sculpin class at least by the men and by people ,and my friend from Burin-Placentia lo/est, I am sure is familiar with them. And I am told they are all fishing. They are apparently getting good catches of fish, but they are costing about seven times per pound what any other fishing boat is. Well anyway,that was another Throne Speech.

Now,Sir, let us come back to february, 1975, the Throne Speech opening the session for the r,eneral election. And is anything there familiar'? Remember, we were told just last week the governments plans. Now some of them have a Jiamiliar ring,though. Listen to this,Sir, "Industrial grants will be made to assist with other improvments and innovations on inshore, middle distance and offshore fishing vessels." Well now it is a little different this year, Sir, There is a great new principal, because this year the words are " Inshore, midwater and offshore " We have changed middle distance to midwater.

We have made a great change. February, l977,the Throne Speech last week,we were promised a programme for the revitalization of our longliner fleet. In March,l972,we were promised a new programme to give better assistance to inshore fishermen to obtain boats, gear and e<juipment. The same stuff keeps coming back. If it hnd been the first speech, Mr. Speaker, if the speech last week l,acl been the first statement of the government's policy,it would have

February 7,1977 Tape 46 All -2 t·m. ROBERTS: been glorious. But it is not glorious, Sir. T~ i~ inr,lorious, a disgrace to have the saroe ideas,shopworn, tattered and unimplemented,trotted out five years later. Just look at tourism , the department that is presided over by one of the giants of the present ministery, the Hinister of Tourism. I am not being sarcastic, maybe he thinks I am. The hon.·~entleman from St. John's East Extern , Sir, in the present ministery is in fact a giant. Because in the Kingdom of the Blind the one-eyed man is king.

In February .. l977,we were told that "~1y r.overnment~' again the Queen's representative speaking, of course," has developed a comprehensive tourist development strategy." In 19 72, Sir, we Here not told that. We v1ere told that the government were going to expand their tourist promotion programme throughout Canada and the U.S. to draw tourists into the province. '.1.11at was the r.eorge NcLean benefit programme.

And in 1972 , no in April ,1<172 we were told that"the government v1Duld embark upon a master tourism .:md outdoor recreation plan for the province." So apparently in five years, Sir, they have planned and planned, and today we have a comprehensive tourist development strategy. We have not sc~>n lt, it has not been implemented , it has not been outlined, ;md 1 wager there will be precious little in the estimates when the ~linistcr o[ Finance )!,ets tl!rough with the Tourism Department for the nc1v programme in the Department of Tourism.

Unless it is to send the Hinister of Tourism on the Horma and Gladys on another 'round the world trip. The Minister of Finance might agree to that. Indeed ,Sir, [ understand the lfinister of Finance might be willing to subscribe out of \lis own rocket an modicum towards that particular project. Aud I, Sir, would match him , dollar for dollar. Provided it was a one-way t rl r. The Hinister of Finance loves a sea trip, that is how he goes over to nell Tslaad, across the Tickle. t1r.

Speaker, in Fel>ruary, 1975, that Throne Speech we were promised a new"w1ldlif" rrogramme of management, conservation and enforcement"­ This is great- a new wildlife prop,ramme of management. conservation ;md enforcement aimed at the protection of this natural resource and of

l'ehrunry 7 , 1.977 All-3 :11-t. IWBHRTS: thP envir onment .'' If somebody had only said that to llco,;c poor animals and bi rds up behind Lal'oilc Say, was it or Cinq Ccr f l:ay . "r:rc:ttcr .love hath no man tha n this t o lay down his life fo r his ;n., - tr·," we :tr<' tole!. And all those poor nnimals , Sir, t he moose that wer e slnughtcrcd and the little birds -five hundred . was it, or t\~0 hund r ed ! -rArriN tin on aircraft, l ande d atPaddv's l'ond.

No t hi n~; but the best , Sir, for t hos;e poor little bird.s that lay down the i r l ives for their country, or fo r the ben e fi t of t heir country's rulers . Well that was the nev Wildlife Programme of Hanagement, Conse t"Vati on and En forcemcnt . Parti cularly t he enforcement, Sir, p art ie ular~ y the enforcement . Ancl if ever we can get into the estimates of the Department of Tour ism, Sir, l say now to the minister that we shall be expecting some detailed nnswers .

If we f~et into the Minis ~ ers of Transpo rtation cs tlln:c tcs , t .:u11 going to ask h;l.m how much it cost thr: ~o vernr.u~ nt for the ni r c ra ft that was station ed at Stephen vi lle all durins: t hat day, in case "ot thnt the hlrds wanted to fly back to St . John's because until the (loor thinAS we r e shot • Si r, they got he re on thei r own , >ut in case ~onn." or t he hun cers, i r indeed the ·.,ay they went at i t was hun tin~ tn cns c some of the gent lemen involved w1111ted to come b ack by thnt particular method of t rnnsror tati on . !low much it mi~ht have cost fo r t he heli copters?

Not the ones owned hy pri vate inclividuAls,bec .ause,of cour se ,we are not concerned by that , nttllough 13S

February 7, 1977 Tape no. 47 Page l - mw Mr. Roberts. It is interesting, you know, that one would accept that sort of lift, but the ones under con~ract to the government. In any event, where was I? Oh, yes! Forestry and Agriculture - I do not see the minister here again, but we have one of the previous ministers, the gentleman from Gander, (Mr. Collins), because he has been minister of almost everything. MR. l)OQDY: A very capable man. MR. ROBERTS: A very capable man, Sir,I agree, and one of these days he will show us that capability.

February,l977,we are told, "Greater emphasis to forst improvement, and programs for thinning and reforestation. In the past year a large sum has been spent and in the coming year this figure will double. This program is higly labour intensive." Very laudable, very laudable, Sir. And if it can be implemented I would be the very first to welcome it. But, Sir, let us just look at the government's record ln this same field because this laudable new programme must be measured. This is not a new administration, Sir.

This is a group of men who have served Her Majesty, as Her Majesty's ministers,for five of the twenty-five years during which she has graced the Throne, and they have had ample opportunity to transcribe, to translate some of their intentions into action. Back in 1972 we were promised a Newfoundland Conservation Corps. There would be 500 partridge alive today, Mr. Speaker, if that Newfoundland Conservation Corp had been in existence, and about fifteen moose,I am told. The Newfoundland Conservation Corrs.Sir, has, you know, died aborning.

We were also promised"asane and sensible forest management policy in order to promote and to devlop the orderly expansion of forest related industry. Negotiations,'' we were told;'must commence between government and industry in order to ensure that our full forest potential be realized!' That is five years ago.

Februarv 7. 1977 Tape no. 47 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. Todav, Sir -and again this is a subject which must be debated in this House, in this session - the forest indus~rv of thiA Province is on the verge of what is the most serious crisis ever to confront it, the crisis which, I am told, in many ways goes to the very roots of its existence, The spruce budworm is the imminent problem. It is the immediate problem. It is the one which must first be dealt with.

But there is the further problem, Sir, and I believe the Throne Speech adverts to this, that we are running out of so-called economic wood, wood which is accessible to the mills and to be harvested at a price that will enable paper to be produced at a price that can be sold competitive on the world markets, with the world competition. So after five years, Sir, we are deeper into the crisis, and all we are told is that the government are going"to increase their forest thinning and reforestation programmes." The great hopes of five years ago have been shattered anu disc.arded along with the ministers of the day.

We are also told, in that same speech, Sir,­ Your Honour might well wish to take that speech home and read it through. If ever Your Honour wanted to see a catalogue of broken promises and unkept commitments, there it is. "Introduce legislation:' we were told,"to bring into active and productive use the large quantities of arable land lying vacant because of absentee ownership!' And, of course, there has not been a comma put on the Statute Books to achieve that end.

We were told, for example - this was in 1973 in the Throne Speech, Your Honour - that there was going to be a marked increase in expenditures for forest access roads in the coming year. And there they get full marks, Sir. Of course, it was thanks to DREE that that was done, because the government's expenditures, if anything, went down. 1 3 '7

Februarv 7, 1977 Tape no . 47 Page 3 - l1IW Mr . Roberts. January,l974, the Throne Speech that began that year's h session, Sir, we were told,Th c government intends to research- oh, this is a good one , the gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) can tell us about this - intends to research possible markets for all species of timber, particularly the extensive stands of birch in order to intensify further its policy of fullest utilization of forest resources!' You know, Mr. Speake r, another unkept promise, another broken commitment .

Oh , we had the holiday crowd off in Scandinavia . with the big parties and enjoying themselves and in the good hotels, and with the best of meal and mead or whate ver they are serving these days in Scandinavia , but we have not seen any results. All we have seen is a few more dollars for Air Canada and the hotel keepers in Sr.Andtn:wta. And I have no doubt some of the bett er establishments, Sir, in that particular part of the world who were given the opportunity to play host . You know, I saw in the paper the other day - I do not know whether the hon. gentleman noticed it - the manager of Air Canada, ~lr.

Eugene Burden, was quoted as saying that one of the reasons why Air Canada was down somewhat tlus year below the proj ec tion was that the government were cutting back ,

February 7, 1977 Tape 48 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: and he went on to say that one of the biggest single users of Air Canada services in this Province is the government. And he was not just referring to the ministry, although they are notable users, consumers of services, most of them paid for. Sometimes EPA are allowed to give the odd free airplane ride up to M.ontreal, a free lift on the jet, nice work. CFLCo -we will be getting on to this a littl'e later - of course contribute generously by allowing the aircraft - MR. N. WINDSOR: Bunkum! MR. ROBERTS: Oh yes, the bon. gentleman for Mount Pearl (Mr. N.

Windsor), his constituents may be hit by the odd tax increase here and there but they will be pleased to know that that is financing weekend shopping expeditions in Montreal on the CFLCo jet which of course is not directly owned by the government but, you know, we have a two-thirds interest in that company for which we are paying very dearly,and so any expense,it is reasonable to say,that we are paying two-thirds of the cost.

In due course we will asking some questions which I do not think will be answered - I wish they would be - as to the number of trips made by members of the government, families of members of the government,or civil servants on the CFLCo jet. From time to time it is legitimate. And the Premier has used it on occasion to go to a meeting and that is perfectly proper. Other ministers have as well, perfectly proper, no problem at all. But there are other usages,! venture to suggest, Nr. Speaker, which are not quite as attractive. We heard a lot recently about Mr.

Otto Lang, the Minister of Transport at Ottawa and his Nannygate affair. Well, Sir, we would have Nannygates and Nannygates and Billygates and other things, Sir, if ever the log of CFL -whatever that jet - the CFLCo jet was made public. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, getting back. I am taken away by the gentleman from Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie). I apologize to him. I had not meant to. Because, of course, nothing has been done on this particular 139

February 7, 1977 Tape 48 PK - 2 researching possible markets for all species of timber, other than whatever, if anything, he and his colleagues did during their holiday jaunt. Itwas before Christmas was it not? The Fall, Ian? When was it the Fall? MR. STRACHAN: The Fall. The Fall. Before the weather got too had in Scandinavia, and that they went over and came back. Mr. Speaker, the tale is a sad one. I could go on arrd go on. Oh let me just - the Minister of Education is here. He is a gentleman with the best of intentions. Let me give him some words from a previous Throne Speech which I would commend to him.

To the present Throne Speech we are told, indeed the minister,I am sure,either helped to draft the

section or draft it or approved it, but I have no doubt was involved and consulted~'that the government are committed to amalgamating the major functions of the College of Trades and Technology and the Fisheries College, and to increase the range and scope of programmes offered. The Newfoundland Polytechnical Institute Act~which will be introduced in this session 1 will facilitate this amalgamation, and will enable the establishment of a new post-secondary seat of education;• expanded and so is the Trades College. 1\nd I welcome that, 1 think that is terrific stuff.

But it sounded familiar and I went back and the same commitment, Sir, is in the 1975 Throne Speech, and that sounded familiar and I went back a little further, out of my file of Tory speeches into the file of Liberal Throne Speeches, and I find that in March 1 1971, that must have· been the latter years of the administration which the present gentleman front Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) led, the Liberals proposed exactly that idea. Now of course we were out of office very shortly thereafter, within a number of months. We did not have much opportunity to implement it.

If we had .been there I venture to say that it would have been implemented. Mr. Speaker, I could go through every sentence almost of every Speech from the Throne which the present administration have 1 t 0

February 7, 1977 Tape 48 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: sponsored, but I think I have made the point. My colleagues may be tempted once in a while, indeed I hope they will,to refer frpm time to time to some of the promises in their own individual areas of interest and concern. The fact remains, Sir, that this present speech has nothing of significance in it that is new, and we are given the same stale old words, the same stale old promises that we have heard in some cases for three and four and five times. The gentleman from the Bay of Islands ventures to rise, please, go ahead. MR.

WOODROW: ------- Thank you for allowing me a question, Mr. Speaker, and the Opposition Leader also. It seems now quite obvious to me that everything ~ the Speech from the Throne has been condemned. MR. ROBERTS: That is not the question. MR. WOODROW: Now what I would like to ask the Leader of the Opposition very seriously >because we are not here to waste people's money, we are here as members of this House of Assembly, I would like to ask him,first of all, number one, rather what he have put in the Speech from the Throne?

And number two, before he finishes speaking, he will probably be speaking maybe three or four days, I do not know, if he would outline what he would have said in the Speech from the Throne? And after that is said we will hear then the comment from the news media. I challenge the Leader today to - he is probably well intentioned, if he is -tell us what he would put in it, and let this be outlined,maybe in three or four days before he finishes speaking. Thank you. 141

February 7, 1977 Tape 49 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman for his question, if there was one there. And I am grateful as well for his suggestion that I shall speak for three or four days. I hate to disappoint him, but I do not plan to at this point. But I may be tempted. The hon. gentleman may lead me astray. Instead of leading me on the straight and narrow, he may tempt me off the straight and narrow into digressions which would be fascinating, but would not be my intention. Mr.

Speaker, if he wants to hear what I or my colleagues would purpose I can merely invite him to listen to the next Throne Speech prepared by a Liberal Administration which will be here after the next election. SOME HON . ~\EMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: And, Mr. Speaker, I can say further in response to the hon. gentleman's challenge, I will say two things in an insubstantial way~! shall first of all say that when one is after elephants one does not bother with rabbits. So I do not purpose to pay much attention to the hon. gentleman's interventions at this time. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, I would his former leader, a man whom he followed through thin and thinner.J1r. John Crosbie, the present member for St. John's West in the House of Commons, who I believe said the other day when somebody ask him, "Well what would you do if you are so smart if you were the Government of Canada?" He said, "Well, I have not got 8,000 civil servants to advise me, I am not going to tell you." SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . ROBERTS: And I think, Sir, that for once Mr. John Crosbie 1formerly member for St. John's West in this House 1was dead on. He was really dead on for once.

So I say to the hon. gentleman that if that is the best he is able to come up with in his campagin either to get tnto the Cabinet or to try and worm in, if that is the word, or to curry flavour with his colleagues in the caucus he will have to do better than that. He will never get, he will never rise, Sir, to the eminence

February 7, 1977 Tape 49 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: of the Minister of Tourism or the Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment or any of these great men - AN HON. MEMBER: The Minister of Social Services. MR. ROBERTS: the Minister of Social Services, he will never, Sir, rise to the eminence now occupied by the gentleman from Trinity North (Mr. Brett), he will probably never even rise to the eminence occupied by my friend and colleague from Harbour Grace (Mr. Young), who is Deputy Speaker as we know of the House. The hon. gentleman from Bay of Islands (Mr.

Woodrow), Sir, will have to try harder, he will have to try harder. He should remember the old Davis slogan, "He is number two, and he should try harder." Now, Mr. Speaker, before I was led astray, and really I say to the hon. member from Bay of Island that in view of his former calling, he should be the last to lead any of us as tray. That indeed, Sir, his role as shepherd is to guide the flocks safely and not to lead them , Sir, not to lead them astray, and off the straight and narrow.

I do not know whether the hon. gentleman, Sir, is the ninety and nine,to carry on the analogy,or the one, but, Sir, we will find out in due courss. Now, Mr. Speaker, I had had a brief look at some of the old Throne Speeches, referred to some of the highlights of some of them to support my point 1which I think is incontestable, that this administration, Sir, have nothing new. We were not given a programme for action in the Throne Speech last week, we were given a mess of warmed over pottage and not very nourishing pottage at that, and that the whole proceeding was a disgrace.

Now, Sir, that leads me to another point, and I say for the benefit of the gentleman from the Bay of Island there is a progression from point to point, and they lead from there to there, and one point leads to another point, and they are numbered here in my notes. There is first, one, then next there is two, because two generally follows one, and then there is three. So I say that for the benefit of the gentleman from the Bay of Islands

February 7, 1977 Tape 49 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts: because 1 have finished what 1 wish to say for the time being on one point. I now come to another point , and he hopefully will govern himself accordingly. Mr. Speaker, the Opposition traditionally move a motion of nonconfidence in the governmen t, the Throne Speech. The Premier will not be shocked, nor will his friend, colleague , the soul mace, adviser and House Le~er,the hon. gen tleman from Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman),will not be shocked to know thttt I proposed to move an amendment which would have the effect of hein~ a motion of nonconfidence.

I do not expect the government to resign on the strength of it. I expect several of their stalwarts will l ea p up to defend the ministry of which they are a part , and so they should be, and so they should defend it. But l purpose, Sir , to offer an amendment to the Throne Speech, and I will move it in a moment. Perhaps the page might be kind enough, Sir, to take a copy or two up to Your Honour, as Your Honour

February 7, 1977, Tape 50, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS : ------- May be apprised of what I propose to move~ seconded by my friend and colleague the gentleman from Conception Bay South, who is our House Leader. Before I move it,though,let me say, Sir, that this motion is perhaps a little stronger than the normal opposition motion. Not necessarily stronger in the sense that we expect it to carry the day because, of course, the measure of eonfidence of a government in the modern world in a very real sense is not taken in the House of Assembly.

This is the forum in which ideas are advanced and debated but the real measure of confidence comes from the country as a whole. The words are somewhat stronger, Your Honour. I hope they are not offensive and not out of order~because they are stronger, Sir, because I think the case demands stronger words. So accordingly, Mr.

Speaker, I propose the following amendment to the Speech and the motion before the House, Your Honour, as I recall it, something along the lines; that the following Speech be presented to His Honour, namely: "We thank you for your gracious Speech from the Throne and we humbly tell you that we are delighted you came along," or whatever the precise words are.

I think the gentleman from Exploits was named Chairman of the Committee and in due course he will be asked down,or it will be arranged that he and his colleagues go to Government House and they will be asked in and present the Address to His Honour and will doubtless be asked to partake of a glass of sherry and a little conversation and that will conclude the proceedings.

Well, Sir, I do not wish to interrupt the gentleman from Exploit's prospects of a glass of sherry at Government House, but I do want to move an amendment so let me read it, Sir: The amendment would delete all the words in the motion after the word 'that' and replace them with the following: "This House condemns the failure of the Ministry to prepare and to present to the House measures adequate to deal with the problems confronting Newfoundland and Labrador today, and demands that the 145

February 7, 1077, Tape 50, Page 2 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Ministry forthwith take all measures ------- possible within their constitutional authority to alleviate these problems." Now, Your Honour, I move that,seconded, as I say, by my friend from Conception Bay South. I understand that the procedure now is that Your Honour will rule whether this is in order or not. If it is in order we proceed to debate the amendment, if it is not I will have to try again. Does Your Honour wish to make a ruling or am I to assume it is in order? MR.

SPEAKER (Collins): An amendment has been moved to the motion for an Address in Reply, not to the Throne Speech but to the Address in Reply. MR. ROBERTS: That is right, yes.

The motion is as follows: "To delete all the words after 'that' and replace them with the following, 'this House condemns the failure of the ministry to prepare and present to the House measures adequate to deal with the ptoblems cronfronting Newfoundland and Labrador today and demands that the ministry forthwith take all measures possible within their constitutional authority to alleviate these problems."' Moved by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition and seconded by the hon. the member for Conception Bay South.

The hon. the member for Conception Bay South, Sir, of course will not speak because that might possibly be to forfeit his - if he were wearing a hat he would indicate it, I understand, by a tip of his hat. MR. NOLAN: I am lucky to have hair. 'MR. NEARY: The hon. member has spoken. 'MR. ROBERTS: No, he did not. He did not. MR. NEARY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would like for Your Honour to give a ruling. The motion made by the bon. the Leader of the Opposition was seconded by the bon. the member for Conception Bay South.

My understanding is that you are not allowed to utter a single word when you are seconding a motion and the hon. the member for Conception Bay South spoke, Sir, 1.41)

February 7, 1977, Tape 50, Page 3 -- apb MR. NEARY: and I presume now that he has spoken in the debate. I would like for Your Honour to let us have a ruling on this. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. I do wish often that we had a rule that not a word could be said. I usually wish that when the gentleman from LaPoile is speaking. I might say, Mr. Speaker, that the point of order is specious, fallacious, weak, non-existent, ill-founded, unfounded, mis- founded, misplaced, displaced, unplaced and replaced. The fact remains Sir, that my friend from Conception Bay South did not speak.

He did not address himself to the Chair, he has not got the floor, he has no right to speak. What ever rights he has, I suggest,Your Honour, have been preserved unimpaired. Unfortunately, as he would say, his hair has not been and there- in, Sir, lies the nub of the problem. MR. NEARY: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker, and the comments of the Leader of the Opposition, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would ask the hon. the member for LaPoile to be brief in his remarks because I am prepared to make a ruling on the point of order. MR. NEARY: ----- Yes, Sir.

I want to draw to Your Honour's attention that there is a precedent already, Your Honour, in this hon. Housr involving none other than the Speaker, Sir, the Speaker of the House, who just uttered one word at one time. I happened to be a member of the House, Sir, the day it happened. The hon. the Premier at the time, the former Premier rather, 'Mr.Smallwood',

February 7, 1977 Tape no 51 Page 1 - mw Mr. Neary. raised the point of order, Sir, and Your Honour ruled that the member had already spoken in the debate. So I would like Your Honour to refer to Hansard of that day, and perhaps Your Honour may need a few minutes to consult with the Speaker, because the Speaker happened to be the one involved,who was Leader of the Opposition at that time, and was not permitted, Sir, to speak any further in that particular debate. MR. SPEAKER (Dr . Collins): A point of order has been raised that the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr.

Nolan) has already spoken in the debate on the amendments. I would refer hon. members to Standing Order No. 47, under Rules of Debate. And the Standing Order reads as follows: "Every member desiring to speak is to rise in his place, uncovered, and address himself to Hr. Speaker." The point has been raised that a precedent exists in this House which covers this point, but it is well-known that any written Standing Orders are the first authority that we go to. If Standing Orders do not cover the point we will then go to precedent s . If the precedents do not cover the point, we many then consult other authorities.

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