PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period.! 3:00 p.·m. - 6:00 p.m. March 3, 1977

March 3,1977 Tape 699 AH-1 The House met at ·. j p.m • .::....___-------· ~. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to the Speaker's Gallery, Mr. Boyd Ferris, Q.C.,who is president of the Canadian Bar Association,and the council of the association is now meeting in St. John's. He is accompanied by the treasurer of the Law Society of Newfoundland, a gentleman not unknown to members, being the hon. member for Kilbride,~ also accompanied by , -Mr--:-Tom ____ : O' Rielly, vice president of the Newfoundland Branch ofthe_G~~ Bar ___ . Association, and by Mr.

David Hovert, vice president of the Nova Scotia branch. I know hon~ members join me in welcoming the president and those accompanying him. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! . --------· STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. ~'.inister of Mines and .. .En_ergy •. MR.. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to make a statement relating to the recent increases in petroleum products that had taken up some time of the House a few days ago.

Following meetings between the provinces and the federal government during the first half of 1976, the domestic price of crude oil was set to rise in two stages, $1.05 per barrel on July 1,1976 and seventy cents on January 1,1977. The total price rise of $1.75 brings the domestic price of crude oil to $9.75 per barrel, ,_ I t . should be noted that the average price of crude imported into Eastern Canada is approximately $14.00 , ~d the difference between this price and the domestic price of $9.75 is made up by the federal government through the import compensation programme.

Prior to the latest price increases,an agreement was reached between the provinces and the federal government.that a standard freeze period of sixty days would follow any crude oil increase to allow existing inventor±es to be drawn down before consumers would have to pay the increased prices for products. As a result of this freeze period therefore, the seventy cent per barrel crude 1909

~..arch 3,1977 Tape 699 AH-2 MR.. PECKFORD :- oil increase of January 1,1977 is being reflected in the basic product price increase to consumers which became effective yesterday, March 2, 1977. In addition to price increases arising from the cost of crude oil, the federal government has also authorized the oil companies to recover _ some of their non-crude related cost increases, such as higher operating; . and capital costs. These non-crude CO_~E_ ~C-~~a§eS have been authorized by the -Anti-Inflation Board -. and vary in amount according to· the specific costs of the various oil companies ..

A third component of the recent cost increase is. related to additional federal sales tax, payable on increased value of the product sold. In general the size of the recent increase should be as follows:

(1) Increase due to seventy cent per barrel crude cost increasa ·should be around 2.3 cents per gallon on all products; (2)' ~~nc~~as e- due ,, to non-crude . relat .ed costs increases, such as operating and capital costs, anywhere from zero ·or nothing to .. 5 cents per. gallon ~according to the company; (3) the.!increase in the federal sales tax should reflect itself to around .9 to .8 cents per gallon,according to the product.

Actual wholesale . price increases for various products should be in the following ranges, approximately , because we have had some. difficulty in getting exactly the right costs-h·om the campanies ·~ MR. ROBERTS: The companies are a help to us. MR. PECKFORD: That is right. On the premium gasoline, the increase will be anywhere from 2.9 cents to 4.1 cent; regular gasoline 2. 9 to- 4.1; -~ea<!~c:Lor no lead gasoline 3 .1 to 4. 3 diesel 2.8 to 4; stove and fuel oil. 2. 3 to 2. 8 cents. Dealer 1910

March 3, 1977 Tape 700 Mr. Peckford: ------- PK- 1 ' __ -.L markup on wholesale prices are not controlled. It is anticipated that in areas where competition exists the companies with the lowest authorized increases will set the price for their competitors. It should be noted that in isolated- MR. NEARY: No price - MR. HI<:KMAN :" ·Order! AN RON. MEMBER: Carry on. MR. NEARY: The minister is awfully jumpy and jittery. -. - MR. HICKMAN: Order! MR. SPEAKER: Order ·, please! The hon. Minister of Energy carry on. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, ~ am trying to make a statement, and I am having real difficulty'because the bon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) persists ". in harassing me. 9£JME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. PECKFORD: It should be. noted that in isolated areas which were supplied . in the Fall"":and which will not be resupplied until the Spring, prices should not be increased until new stock is delivered. These recent price increases serve to · illustrat .e the more or less inevitable rise in the cost of energy; · which is taking place world-wide and over which this government has no control.

The increases further emphasize the urgent need for energy concervation to decrease our - - ~--- - -- demand for - expensive and increasingly scarce energy. In this regard it is regrettable that the Federal Government has not seen fit to include this Province in a conservation programme similar to that granted to the Provinces of P.E.1 and Nova Scotia. Indeed,neither the Prime Minister nor the Federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources has yet replied to our request as tabled in this House on February 15, 1977. And I hereby table this statement, Mr. Speaker. 1.91.1. .•

March 3, 1977 Tape 700 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. HON. E. M. ROBERTS: Mr •. Speaker, the minister's statement is a penetrating insight into the obvious, and does not require a great deaL of comment, but perhaps I could be allowed one or two observations without transgressing the rule which says ;·-we cannot debate his statement. Iwould love to debate the statement, particularly the government's lamentable failure to take proper steps:. to ensure that we do get our fair ··share of this federal. subsidy that has . been given to ·Nova Scotia and to Prin~e Edward Island.

But there will b~an opportunity for that, Sir. Mr. Speaker, first of all with respect to the question of oil pti:ce: rises, nobody likes them. There is no way in which anybody could. be expected to like them,- but as the. minister said, that is not a matter of which this Province. has any legislative control in this essence. There are however, Mr. Speaker, _ways in which the Province can take legislative controls, as we have seen in the neighbouring Province. of Nova S<:otia~ And I could. again say to- the. government, particularlr to the.

Minister of Justice, that they should bring before. this House legis~ation to enable. our Public Utilities Board to- take control of price rises in this Province exactly as t~ey have in Nova Scotia. I realize there may be some constitutional difficulties, I realize there are certainly arguments wh~ch can be made, but the fact remains that the legislation has bee~in force in Nova Scot;a !o~ a number of7years, . and it has worked, and I believe to the benefit of the - people of -~,h~; __ pro!!~.c~ _ _ We have been told in this Bouse on occasion that · the government are studying it.

Indeed, I · suspect. if I look back through the Hansards,Sir, we wo-uld find perhaps a dozen different occasions in the last three or four years in which we have been told that the government are studying this, that they hope to be able to bring in some legislation or they are going to take some steps. Well,all I will say, it is about time, and the quicker the better. And the· other comment I would make, Sir, is to tell the minister something which he obviously does not kno-w, but he should 1912

March 3, 1977 Tape 700 PK - 3 Mr. Roberts : have known• H~ says in this statement "That in remote areas the -price should not be increased." I. can assure him that I am told by the oil companies that the prices will not be increased in the remote areas other than in respect of the federal tax i?-crease, and in the case· of one oil company, Golden Eagle, the half cent a gallon increase that has been allowed to them for administration charges.

Both the Imperial Oil Company and the Golden Eagle · Company have assured me~ ·and I made some effort to check into it·, because my constituency is very much affected- that the· two-point-three cent , ~ a gallon increase which represents a pass through of the ~ost_:_ of crude increase,that increase will not apply to the stocks now in storage at' the tanks in the Northern par~s of the Island of Newfound- land and throughout Labrador.

In other words,the people who draw fuel from those sources, Sir, will be spared that particular two- point-three cent a gallon increase until well on in the Spring or early in the SUmmer ---· ·-- -- --- · . ' 1 1913

• I March 3, 1977, Tape 701, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: when new fuel products are supplied. Mr. Speaker, I would simply say again that I would ask the government to bring before this House, Sir,. as quickly as they can -and there can be no excu_s~ now, no acceptable excuse for further delay - legislation to require our oil and gas prices to be brought under the same type of regulation as in Nova Scotia. It has worked there, it can work here. It cannot forestall inevitable increases.

Canada·does not control the worldwide price of oil and if we are going to have oil,and we must, then, of course, we will have to look to the world price. But we can control, Sir, . the rate of price increase. We can.control the profits which are being taken ~nd that is what the Nova Scotia Legisla~.i~n does, as I understand it. I' would like to see it done here. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! · MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism.

Perhaps before the hon. minister makes his statement I' would drawFhon. members' attention to ------- the presence in the galleries as welL--of the former member for Bonavista South who sat in this Legislature for quite a number of years. To the best of my knowledge it is his first time back as a visitor since he ceased to sit as a member. We are all pleased to see him here looking in such good health. Mr. Ross Barbour. RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 'MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY': Mr.

Speaker, I should like to inform the House t~at the Department of Tourism is fully behind the proposal of the Visitor's Committee of the Canada Summe~ Games, of ~mich we are a member, in their campaign to solicit temporary accommodations in private homes for visitors who may not be able to find accommodations in existing establishments. I ask the people of St. John's to be co-operative and to show the type of hospitality this Province is renowned for. Besides my department's participation in ·various 191.4

March 3, 1977, Tape 701, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKEY: various committees, I plan to personally m~er with the Summer Games officials to determine if there are any areas where my department can be of further assistance to ensure that all visitors will enjoy their stay with us·. MR. NEARY: Boy: -That is powerful stuff. MR. HICKEY: Settle down, maybe this is a little more. powerful fo~ you. Mr .. Speaker ·, I ~sh to make' a further- statement. · I. wish· to make. a statement in connection with the big game licencing system for ~~_j.97T hunting season.

Under- the present~ system applications are- mailed to the, Wildlife Division of my department·. This has presented a number of problems over the years and as a result we plan to change the system this year where all applicants for licences will be required to present their applications personally,by hand, accompanied by the prescribed fee· to designated government personnel. Last year we tried, on an experimental basis, drawing the name-. of· the successful applicants by hand.

This-.method proved to be very unsatisfactory. :rt _r~quir_ed ~n -~~itional_ thir-teen staff members and the time taken to conduct the· dl:aw was seven weeks compared to a matter of hours to complete the draw by computer. Th~ computerized draw permitted effective screening of all.applicants which prevented individuals from having · more than one application entered in the draw. The manual system ' . did nor allow time for such screening and as a result it was quite possible for one ind~vidual to have submitted more - than one application.

The manual system also resulted in a late notification of applicants indicating their success or otherwise. Based on the foregoing problems,a computerized draw system: will be reintroduced this year. The priority pool system and the party licence system will be continued this . year but with some changes. I will advise the House' I will -...... 1915

March 3, 1977, Tape 701, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKEY: r will be making further statements which will outline in detail. the changes and systems to be used during the coming season. MR.. NEARY: Was the Premier one of the ones who was ·late filing last year? MR. HICKEY: Put it on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Leave to revert to Notices of Motion? The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to ip.troduce a bill,"An Act To Amend The Hospital Insurance (Agreement) Act." MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Constimer Affairs and Environment. MR. MURPHY: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Real Estate Trading Act." MR. SPEAKER: The· hon. the. Minister of Justice. Mr .. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague, the hon• the- Minister of Fisheries ·, r give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fish Inspection Act." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. - --·- -- - -·-- - ·- - - 191..6

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 702 Page 1 - mw MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to some questions. Question No. 122 on· the Order Paper of February 17 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary>, asking how many trips I made outside of Canada on public business in 1976 as Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. The answer is none. Question No. 20 in the name of.the hon. member for Trinity- Bay d~ Verde (Mr. Rowe), it is on the Order Paper of February 8, dealing with the Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Commission.

Question No. 111 on the Order Paper of February 15 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) dealing with escapes from the various boys and girls homes. MR. NEARY: MR. H. COLLINS: - -- -. . - called homes. They are not prisoners either. Question No. 151 in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) with regard to the Medical Care Commission. And Question No. 44 in the name of the same hon. member with regard to the swine vaccine programme. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice, and it grows out of some questions which were asked in the House yesterday by my friend and colleague from Burgeo - Bay d.'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) with respect to the Human Rights Act,which says in

Section 3 thereof that the act applies specifically to the Crown. And, of course, as the minister is aware, and as hon. members may not be, no act applies to the Crown Unless it specifically says so. In view of the fact the act ·applies specifically to the Crown, is the minister going to take steps to investigate the apparent breach of the subsequent

section of the code which says, "There shall be no discrimination on the basis of. mar;!.tal status,"" given the admission of his colleague, the Minister of Social Se~ices, that such discrimination is being practiced by the Minister of Social . Services as a matter of policy? 1917

March 3, 1977 Tape. no. 702 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Leader of the Opposition is quite correct when he says that yesterday there was a great deal of time .properly spent on this issue.to the degree that his colleague, the. hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) · indicated he wished to debate the issue this afternoon at 5:30 P.M, and gave notice thereof. I will try and answer the hon. leader of the. Opposition's question bearing in mind Your Honour's ruling that I am not" perm:ltted to interpret the law in this House. Th:e hon.

Minister of Social Assistance has made it abundantly clear to this House that the criteria, as. I understand it from what he has said in this House, is that the. criteria for the hiring of people, persons in Hampden, is based not on sex, colour o~ creed or the ~rita! status of anyone, but rather on need,to do the greatest good for the greatest number, and obviously this leads him to the conclusion that hiring married men, with dependents, will meet that criteria. And it. would . be very difficult indeed, Mr. Speaker, to see how that falls into the category of discrimination against anyone .. MR..

ROBERTS : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ROBERTS: I am not allowed to debate it so again I cannot. But has the minister received -by way of, I suggest, Sir, a permissable

preamble, no prosecutio~ may procee d' unae r the ~c:t:- - ~ - -- - - Without the written approval of the Minister of Justice. And there have been some very interesting British cases on that recently to which I would refer the minister. Mr. Speaker, has the minister received any requests for authority to proceed with an action under the act to test the question, which the minister is not allowed to interpret nor am I, as to whether or not the minister's policy, the Minister of Social Services' policy is in fact a breach of -the act or not? 1918

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 702 Page 3 - mw MR. SPEAKER.: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker • I left my office at 9: 30 this morning and.-~~o - that-ti.Dle I-lia~ not-rece_!v:~-any - ~ request either verbally or in writing from anyone not:. even an. indication that a request would be forthcoming. The ho'li. Leader · of the Opposition also referred to that very interesting case that is; presentl.y before . the Appellate Court -- . . . ·. . .. · -~ in. Great Bri.tain. - It is: before the, House · of Lords._ It ha& gone. through. the, Court of· Appeal. .. MR. HICKMAN: - --- - --------- · -=- ....... . ·- - ------ ------ - - ----- - -- ---- -. 1919

¥arch 3, 19 77 Tape 703 IB-1 MR. HICKMAN: _ ,?PP~llat~ court as to the right - MR. ROBERTS: The appellate court. ~£R. HICKMA.~: ; Right. The appellate court, except for the Commonwealth . . ~-.--~--- --·-~ - - --- ---- Then there is the judicial council, judicial committee of the Privy Council- '!1P.. P.OBERTS : No, it is not. vJe are a part of the Commonwealth. It is not.our- . . MR.. HICJ.O-f.AN : - in countries that still have the wisdom to maintain that right of appeal, the ?hole issue, the entire issue of the right of the Attorr:tey General to refuse to consent is very much before the courts now.

I a:m sure that every Attorney General in the common law jurisdictions ~~-. 'ROBE!'TS : A very good point. ~"P.. PTCYl'AN: ~s looking fonvard with a great deal of anticipation to the decision of the Rouse of Lords in th.?.t case,which I think ".Till be a very important case and a very fundamental case as far as future guidance of the Attorneys · General in common law jurisdication and throughout the Commonwealth is concerned. - . ·-- MP.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Lewisporte followed _by the hon. gentleman for LaPoile. ~~-. 'h'HITE: }'r.

Speaker, my a_uestions C'.re djrected at the 1~inister of.Tourism,and they come about as a result of the state~~nt he made today on big gaine licensing in Ne~rfoundland. Now as the minister knows-and I do not "t-rant to get into debate on this because I am not allowed - but, you know, the last few years the big game licensing has been a can of worms and it looks like another one might be opened now. I wonder if the minister could tell me what the designated government personnel r.;rill be in terms of who applicants will have to take their applications for licenses to, .,.m.o they Fill be? ~"!!-. SPEAKER: The hon.

Yinister of Tourism. ~. HICKEY: ~~r. Speaker, I am unable to give my hon. friend a specific answer to that question and obviously for that reason I did not say anything in the statement in any definitive way, for the simple reason 1920

r..farch 3' 19 77 Tape 703 IB-2 MR. HICKEY:_ that · it is not confirmed what officials can participate - ~ or - at least - . ---- it is not confirmed that all officials that we want to can participate • . !-md ~Eil I have verification of that from my colleagues, of course, I am unable to state who in ·fact will accept applications - --_ ~~ile I am on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, I might point out that I indicated, not necessarily as part of the statement, but after finishing,that a ~u'tnl:le~ -~!__~~8:~¥_e~- would be forthc _oming and that it was my view that there were too many to put into one statement and it would tend to just -confuse people, so there will be a number of statements which will very clearly illustrate who the people are, --~----- ---- what other charges are, and make it very~ very clear.as to how they will work and how they will affect. Hopefully it will be l"R. 1j1HITE: A supplementary. ~-· SPEAKER: A supplementary. PR. WHITE: ~r.

Speaker, you know,talking about confusion, there is go ~g~~o be a lot of confusion about this from a lot of people in outlying districts. Has the minister made any plans at the moment to give people in remote areas,where there are no government personnel, a chance to make application for licenses? Or will they in the case of places like ' Change Islands in my district have to get aboard a boat and go to Lewisporte or Gander or somewhere like that and all kinds of inconvenience? ~~at about peo~le in remote areas? ~- SPEAKEF: The hon. }!inister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: No~ Mr.

Speaker, there will be no great inconvenience caused anyone. I might say the purpose of attempting to experiment lrlth this particular system is to improve and to eliminate a number of problems which we -have- encountered over the "years. T..Je looked at this situation last year but we were not ready to go with it. And this year we are convinced that lve are. We are also convinced that it will be a vast improvement over the present system. As I indicated there is a whole host of reasons - ther~· are just a couple contained in my statement todaY,- ther~is a whole host of reasons · as to why 192:1

~arch 3, 1977 Tape 703 IB-3 }"R.. HICKEY: the mailing-. of applications should not continue if it is.- at ·an possible to do it by another method ·. And of course the other method is by personal cont~ct · with government officials. And there ara but fe~ places in the· Proviiu::e -where there are not provincial government . ~-· -- officials at· the present time. I can assure my hon. friend that whateV'er places where there: are not: PJ:'ovin.C:~ officials; ,· thea certainly officials wil! go there. · There ~ill b~ plenty of notice given..

It will be at a time convenient to the: people: involved and tqere will be no inconvenience .• MR . WHITE: A supplementary. }'I;R'. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ·----- - -· .. ~ · 1322

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 704 NM- 1 MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, last year, if the minister w-ill recall, there was a system devised whereby those who had not received licences over a period of time were given priority with respec~ to licences,and I am wondering in view of the fact ~hat a lot of people last year applied for licences so they would be in the priority pool, so called, this year I wonder if the system that is coming up this y~ar is going to tie in with the system last year or was that in vain1 MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr.

Speaker.,{As I indi~te~in my statement the priority pool will be continued and e}llarged upon, )1)-e:_. priority pool system is a good one. Naturally there were some wrinkles last year that have to be ironed out. It was the first year. But it certainly would be very wrong to discontinue it now that - - --· --·--- - ·---we have started it because it did i ~ffect and- it di~- ~or~ out .. ___ _ a number of problems for a fair number of people.

As I said, there were a few areas where there m.ight have been a problem · but certainly this year we are in a position to deal with those - ~h~g~- ~anCi~thej:iriority pool system will be enlarged upon,and I am sure that my staff agree that there should be no one ef~e~fti~ ~- -~=-~ this"year in a-way that is certainly not beneficial. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to give notice that I am dissatisfied with the response and wish to debate it on the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize one further supplementary, 1'h~- ____ _ J bon. member for Windsor-Buchans, then the hon. member for LaPoile •. MR.

FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not a deadline has been put on this new system of issuing - -- --- . - licences? Would the minister indicate when. under the new system, the applications will be available~ MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Tourism. 1923

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 704 NM- 2 MR. HICKEY: Mr. __ Speaker, that will be contained in a further - - - - ----- statement. I indicated already that there are quite a number of changes we envisaged this year and there are too many to go into the kind of detail that we feel is necessary to go into to make it reasonably clear to our people of how the system will work and how it will. · affe~t them and how it will apply t~ them.

To attempt to go into those areas that my hon. friend nowq~e~ti.«J~I!J_ ,: and my hon. friend from Lewisporte, would in fact in our view be announcing too many things at one time and would tend to cause some c~nJusion be~a~~~ -~~- - --- -- should be very," very clear and very specific .beeause this - - --- - issue is impo ~tant , to a great nmnber of people. And the --~ response last 'year,I might tell my hon. friends opposite, · might indicate just how important and how popular this particular area is. The year before we had something like 26,000 applications.

Last year that total had swollen to 52,000, so that,you know, we are -talking about a great number of people and I am not going to attempt to cover this rather important area to all of those people in one ministerial statement. But it will be forthcoming and there will-be no undue delay. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation.

I would like to ask the minister if he gave the member for Mount Pearl (Neil Windsor) a letter earlier this week to deliver to the Mount Pearl Town Council committing the government to an expenditure of $150,000 over a five year period? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MRB:.COLLINS:_ Mr. Speaker, I recall sistning a letter,which is the appropriate manner in which grants are made available to

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 704 NM- 3 MR. COLLINS: help defray the cost of recreational facilities. How the letter left my office I really cannot say. I presume it went in the mail. As Lrecall it was addressed to the Town· Council in the Goulds. MR. NEARY: A supplementary· q~st:i_on, -Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. ' NEARY: Is the minister aware that the member from Mount Pearl ~- Windsor) picked up the letter and delivered it that night at the town council meeting in Mount Pearl? Is the minister aware of that~ MR.H. COLLINS;_ No. I MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, a~supplementary question, could the minister tell us when that commitment of $150,000 for the stadium in Mount Pearl was made? When was the commitment actually made? Why the delay in sending the letter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon •. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitiation. . I MR.~.COLI.INS!.iMr. Speaker, I certainly could not say that,but .I would undertake to _get the infonnation •. But I ~1!!_~0-~--------- . want to give a date which might not be accurate. !.really could not say. MR. NEARY:. A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Could the. minister tell the House if the town council,which is now being forced to finance this stadium in ~ Mount Pearl, if the town council had any control or any say in how that $150,000 is spent? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Recreation and Rehabilitiatiort • . I 1925

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 705 Page 1 - mw __ MR.HO •. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, these are technical questions which . no m!:C.i.-ster would ever hope to have the answers to unless the minister was given notice of the questi~n. I will certainly take · the quest~on under advisement, but I really cannot give that answer. I might give something which is not accurate, and I would not want -to do that. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: One further supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would. thetdn istex: tell the House who the . -·------ - . -· commitment was made to?

Was it made to the Minor Hockey Association in Mount Pearl or was the commitment . made to the Town Council of . Mount Pearl? Surely, the minister can tell the House that. - MR. SPEAKER: The hen. minister. Mr. Speaker, the Recreational Programme provides that we share in the cost of recreational facilities across the Province. It was always dealt wit~ in co-operation with the Department of Municipal Affairs. . And r do not know if my colleague would want . to give some response here or not, but ours is a complementary, supplem~tary grants programme.

I really do not know offhand if the letter went to th~ Town Council or the Recreational Commission. Buc I know'I .. did sign a letter authorizing $150,000 to a group in Mount Pearl, but I believe it was the Town Council tha_t the letter went to. As I _said, Mr. Speaker, how the letter left my office, if it was by dog team, by snowmobile or whatever else, I do not know. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: . The· hen. member for Lewisporte. . . MR. NEARY: · A supplementary, Mr. Speaker • ----MR. SPEAKER: I indicated further that that would .be the last supplementary.

It does not preclude the hou. gentleman from getting back to it later if the Question Period works out that way. The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of . . Municip .al Affairs and Housing and . again it is related to Mount Pearl, but · 1926

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 705 Page 2 - mw Mr. White. in a different manner. Just as a

preamble, a couple of weeks ago there was a meeting held in Mount Pearl when it was decided that a plebiscite would be held with respect to whether Mount Pearl would become a part of the so-called new big city of St. John's. I wonder if the minister could tell me if he has been_notified by the Town Council in Mount Pearl or by this group who met in Mount Pearl concerning this plebiscite. MR. NEARY: Have som~ supplementaries. MR. WHI:TE: I will have some supplementaries. First of all I would like to know if he has been notified about this plebiscite? MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. DINN: .No, Mr. Speaker.

I know ~hat th~re is a plebiscite being circulated, but I have not been notified officially. MR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. - - ------ - - - ·· ·-- -~- MR •. SPEAKER: A supplementary (.__Qy the originaL u~~tioner- MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to ask the minister whether or not in view of the fact that he has not been notified about this, how he feels about plebiscites being take_n on ~his very important urban region study, and if. similar plebiscites will be encouraged in other centres that are supposed or designated to come within the big city,so-called? MR.: SPEAKER: The hon. minister.

MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the local government from Mount Pearl is the Mount Pearl Town Council, and if they want to,or if some citizens want to circulate a petition or a plebiscite or a questionnaire, I have no objection at all. As a matter of fact I would like all the input I could possibly get on the Henley Commission or any other thing. I want to get input from people in the St. John's urban region: ·. MR. WHITE: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. 1.927

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 705 Page 3 - mw MR. WHITE: A supplementary to the minister. Is the minister saying then that he would encourage plebiscites to be held in other areas similar to Mount Pearl that are designated to come within the big city? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DINN: · Mr. Speaker, that is entirely up to the local governments in the area. MR. NOLAN: MR. SPEAKER: Bay South. MR.. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Conception A question for the minister regarding the Henley Commission Report.

It has often been done before that reports have been done for government, not just on municipal affairs, but on other matters, and people within government - I am not talking about minister~:: .'but officials have taken a report and used as . it as though it. is the policy. Now my understanding is that this Henley Commission is not the position of the government at this moment. It has not been. It is not law. There is discussion going on.

But what t want to ascertain is: Is the minister aware that any official, whether it is in Metro Board,or anyone iti his department · or any other-department may be using this as though it is law,or they know it is going to be the law of this Province. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any official certainly in the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing that is using the Henley Commission Report, the third and final one, as law. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker a question for the Minister of Health, Sir, rising out of an answer that was given to me yesterday by his colleague, the Minister of Finance. Would the minister care to elaborate on.the answer that was given to me that there was an injury, an incident at the Waterford Hospital involving serious injury to one of the patients? 1.928

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 705 Page 4 - mw Mr. Neary. Would the: mini.ster give the· Rouse a little more information and adequa1:ely carried for at the Waterford': at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR... COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, first: of al~ let me say that the: Minister of Finance, the. President of Treasury ~ard and myself ara . - to use a: common expression . which used to be used in: this Rouse. in the. past--· are. toe to t:oe ,and cheek: to cheek:, and hear~·to heart all. the way on what is happening at the Waterford lio~:;pital. r am satisfied ·on the basis of the· advice -------------- - -- ----- -- -·-- .. ---- 1929

March 3,1977 Tape 706 AH-1 MR. COLLINS: that I am getting from the board,i-from "th-:_ management ·-----­ from my own deputy minister who spends.- the · maj-orlty "of his time _ in and around the institution, that the care and sup~rvision being provided in there is up to standard. One of the areas - . ·:o~_h:i.c~_I1~~~ some attention,.~ __ where the attention is not being given _ 'is it was before, is in terms of extra-curricular-: activities, such as bus rides and movies and that sort of thing, but from the point of view of care and supervision, it seems to be adequate. 1-IR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, •is it a fact, would the minister te;Ll . the House, enlighten the House,as to whether or not the patients at the Waterford Hospital are at the present time being kept under heavy sedation and locked in rooms at the Waterford?·~sthe~~-~ny foundation at all to this report? . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR~ COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that question coming from the hon.member from- t:ai'oife~remi~fliere~js-_ no, gUes~_!~-~-~t,~~tF.rt~---= M:R:-:Ro:BiRTS :- A point of order, Mr. Speaker. _,;;.;;.;.;.,.~~=~ - --- --. - -----.. . MR. SPEAKER: A point: of order _has . been raised·.

MR. .-ROBERTs·:· The ~inister of Health may -or inay ~-o t-like-t he que~tio!l · asked by the gentleman from LaPoile, Sir, · but that- i s.-utt erly ·-- --.. - - beside the point: for two reasons: First of all, Sir, the minister is not allowed to debate them .H~- may or may not answer them, !=hat is up to him;_jla.(( secondly, Sir, even if he were allowed to debate them, he is not allowed to question the hon. gentleman from LaPoile's motives in asking the questions.

To make the allegation that in the Minister of Health's opinion'- ~t h~ questions are mischievous: is to . -----~- make allegations as to-motive, which are "completely out of order. Now whether the minister chases to answer the question or not is beside the point, but he must assume, as we all do,· that the gentleman is asking these questions in good faith. And I may say to the minister: -that almost all of us over here , Sir, have similar 1.930 . .

March 3,1977 Tape 706 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: questions which we are prel'ared to ask if need be, and the minister's answer, Sir, only lead further to the evidence-or the conclusion that he is trying to hide something in this resl'ect. But I suggest, Sir, that his answer is out of order and should be so ruled. SOME RON-. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR.. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: There are two points of order before the House now. MR.

SPEAKER: Only one at a time. by the hen. gentleman from Gander, the Minister of Health, is not ou~ of order; and secondly,r direct Your Honour's attention to the fact that the hon.Leader of the · Opposition is using a point of order to debate a issue,which he just ·d~d in this case and that :"'!' most assured~y is out of order. MR. SPEAKER: To deal with the point of order before the Chair, because there can only be one at a time,and that is with respect to the reply, or beginning of the reply .of the hon.

Minister of ~ Health, it is certainly evident that one cannot debate a questio m .. ~ ~ On~ ca~ -=== refuse to answer, one can take it as notice, one can do a number of things, request i't be put on the order paper- one cannot debate it. And certainly in the allegation that the question was mischievous, it was at least debating it. , it was at least that. The han. minister of Health MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I am reluctant for obvious reasons to debate,and we are reaching a debating process with supplementary questions. I am reluctan~ to make any further coiiiiilents because, after all, Mr.

Speaker, there are a lot of people around this province who have relatives in that institution. I am satisfied that the care and supervision taking place in there is adequate with the exceptions which I have noted. And I think , Mr. Speaker, 1931.

March 3,1977 Tape 706 AH-3 MR. COLLINS: ---· that it would be unwise for me,and unfair for me, to make an~- - - ~~rth~! _c()~n"t~ ~ MR. NEARY:- Mr_._ Speaker, a ·supplementary question. MR ~ - SPEAKER: One further supplementary. MR.

NEARY: Sir, that is what I am looking for~inform~tion 1 __ __ I ask the minister now:_____if he could reassure this House,and reassure the people of this province; -who have relatives and ... . -... ... friends in the Waterford Hospital, tha~. with the withdrawal of services of 400, - : or:-_500 workers in there, '- substitut~d-~ith , __ _ a handfuL of workers, c~ the minister reassure the people of this province:, that the explosive situation in there, that the patients are being taken care of ? MR. SPEAKER: Order~ order, please!

In asking the questfon - - - -- -·-- --=----- - - of course, the s~e ~es apply with respect to answering it, and only sucn facts that are necessary for an understanding of the question should be included :s; the allegation of an explosive situation ----- - I . would be ~ opiniom_)nd should not come into the question. MR. COLLINS: Mr ...

Speaker, I repeat what I have already said; that all of the- advice which I have received from the management, from the board, and from my own senior officials ·, is that the care and s~pervision of the patients at the Waterford Hospital is being adequately taken care of, with the exceptions which I noted in terms of extra-curricular activities. Now I want ·to reassure the people in Newfoundland that that is taking - place. I mentioned that, Mr.

Speaker, such as movies, bus rides and all of the other extra things which is done in there to try and keep those people happy and contented in the environmenr in which they find themselves • . -- - --~-- _,_ -- :1932

March 3, 1977 Tape 707 PK- 1 Mr. H. Collins: While I am on my feet I will re-emphasize again,as my colleague, the President of Treasury Board did a few days ago that all of us, and all of the people in Newfoundland,should be most grateful for the work which has been put in, for the assistance which has been given by the police, by the nurses, and by the many other volunteers who have gone in there and done a tremendous job. · S OME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member· from Windsor-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, would the Minister of Health advise the House as to what arra~gements his department has made for patients who have been seeking admission to the Waterford Hospital,or have been referred to the Waterford Hospital since the strike started, serious cases of people who would normally have been admitted to the Waterford Hospital, ___ ~~t is the situation with those people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: As I understand it, Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member did not ask this question - there were a number of patients, -I am not sure of the number, but it is somewhere in the order of thirty or forty patients who were discharged when the services were withdrawn in there. I am also of the understanding that no further patients, .there might be some exceptions, but no further patients - ----=- - - -- -will be admitted until the c~_r~!a~io_?.- ~.s ove~. I cannot be entirely sure,given. the set · of circumstances of a patient who, you kn~w, the need was urgent, but I will certainly look into that. But I would suspect that there is no admission. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the minister tell the House what is happening to the out-patients branch of the Waterford? Is it still functioning? Can people still go there for day care treatment and so forth? What is happening in connection with the out-patients? 1.933

March 3, 1977 Tape 707 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, there will be some difficulties with regard to out-patients, . because people are reluctant~naturally,. to cross picket lines etc. But those people are being taken care of one way or the other. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member from LaPoile., This will pe the fina1 supplementary • I. will- recognize the hon. member f~om Lewisporte· after. MR.

NEARY: Would the :minister tell the House where these people who were getting out-patient treatment at the Waterford, where are they being taken care of and howr MR .. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister· of Health. MR. H. COLLINs·: No, Mr. Speaker, that is something I cannot say because patients are referred to different psychiatric units in the various hospitals across the city. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from Lewisporte, followed: by the hon~ member from Bellevue. MR. F'. WHITE: Mr • . Speaker,. I have a question for the Minister of Tourism again,on a different matter.

Would the minister - last year some plans were indicated for the construction of regional - --- - ---- -tourist chalets throughout the Province. ,-As. a matter. of fact one ----- - --was almost designated for Notre Dame Junction in my district. 'I wonder if the minister could indicate to us now what the situation is with respec.t to those tourist chalets " since I understood ~-- ---·- - --plans were _being asked for from various companies with respect to the design of those chaletsr MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. T. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, there was some problem with design, with regards to the·· Interpretative Centre for Port aux Basques which is the major facility for the Province. And we took the position that it would be senseless to attempt to establish the regional ones along the main highway of the Province, using a different design. Of course, · that necessitated waiting until a final decision, and, in 1934 ··--"" -- -----

March 3, 1977 Tape 707 PK - 3 Mr. T. Hickey: fact, a design for the main Interpretative Centre for Port aux Basques was ready. That has been done and accepted. We ran into some problems with regards to the site for Port aux Basques, and because of road realignment or the prospects of a bypass road that further delayed it. I do not want to give a particular date,but I think it is -fair to say that the problem is just about sorted out, and there should be something very shortly on the particular issue.

I do want· to say, however, that• we received from the Federal Govermnent $500,000 out of a total of $700,000 committed for this project. $400,000 of that $500,000 was specifically designated Port aux - ··-----Basques, leaving about $100,000. We naturally want the other · _$200~00Q_ ___ _ ___ before we can proceed to finish the job. However,I suggest that will not. stop us from calling a tender, I would hope, for the regional ones.

The other thing is that the AelaY. for one reason or another has greatly inflated the cost, and this has prompted us, at least for the time being, to reduce the number of chalets along the --- ·· - ----- Trans-Canada Highway. We envisaged ~ 1935

}farch 3, 1977 Tape 708 IB-1 }~. HICKEY: at one time six. I am not in a position to say _x:_ow _ _ v7hether there will be four or five,but certainly we are not going to have six. Of course this is another problem, anothe ~ reason why we Hill ~vant some assurances in ~vriting of the other $200,000 and an approximate c!ate as to ~<Then we 1o1ill receive it·· before proceeding. MR. WHITE: A supplementary. 1~. . SPEAKER: One supplementary. ~~. ~miTE: }~r.

Speaker, I vrould like for the minister to tell me and the House if he could the location of the others, the locations that have been arrived at with respect to the regional chalets. ~~. HICKEY: }"r. Speaker, for fear of misleading the House,which I am sure I would be· accused of if I said something which was not completely accurate, I am not going to attempt from memory to indicate the sites. I think it is sufficient for my friend for Lewisporte (Mr. li.'hite) to say to him that he looks in pretty good shape. MP.. SPEAKER: The time is up. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.

SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the amendment to the Address in Reply. The hon. ~inister of Justice. 1-·'R • . HICIQ>~'..&.N: "tA:r. Speaker, I rise to bring to a hasty conclusion my remarks of Tuesday,when I was asked by an hon. gentleman who is -still away on public business :ff I ~vould say a few words. In ·my unprepared and unprovoked few remarks of Tuesday,r · made some reference to the commitment of the Government of Canada to our Province. I referred to certain percentages ~ ~ I did not have the figures at the time - of involvement of the Government of Canada in the Department of Public Harks.

This aroused certain tut-tuts across the House. But I now have them. The total expenditure for 1977-1978 of the Government of Canada through the Department of Public ~·Torks is as fallows: Fortune Government of Canada Bu~lding, $237,000; St. John's feasibility study for tax center, $750,000; Long Pond harbour improvements, $8,000- __ - I rlo not know but that is going to be to paint a gun. 1.936 '

March 3, 1977 Tape 708 IB-2 ~.~PRY: l-lhere is that? MR. HICRY.AN: Long P~nd. And then Ramea wharf, $250,000 for a total of $1,245,000. Now, ¥r. Speaker, the total vote for the Department of Public Works by the Government of Canada for 1977-1978 is $300 million. The government and people of _ ~~~~~4la~4~ from that department -and that is the department that has the o~portunity to creata jobs, to react to em~rgency sit~ations, to react to high unemployment in a particular area - the c;overiurient - of - · NeWfound1 ~4. _is getting three i'-one =-hundredths : of tha total·vote from that department in 1977.

That is the answer that the government of this Province,acting on behalf of all the people, received to ·its request that there would be special expenditures, an additional thrust to meet some of the unemployment problems in Newfoundlanct'. --I said - and I say again - that one has to be awfully careful ! as Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs that one does not say anything which will offend the Government of Canada., but at the same time one has an obligation to put before the Government of Canada the just needs of the people of this Province.

I had suggested that there was a lack of sensitivity on the part of: the Government of.Canada- - for the Government of Newfoundland. I was a bit apprehensive when I said that, that someone might say, "You are being politically partisan.!! But way in the back of my mind I said to myself that there is some.thing which indicates to me that r am not being partisan at all,because I have heard that from someone else. And r thought and I ' thought and of October 19, · 1976 signed by Edward }f. Roberts, the hon. the Leader · of the Opposition in this House,to the bon. Keith Davey of the :S enate in Otta'I;Ja. 1937

March 3, 19 77 Tape No. 709 NM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: And what does the hon. the Leader of the Opposition say? MR. NOLAN: Are you talking about the Leader of the Opposition now? MR. HICKMAN: 11 Let me simply · say again that it is very hard to find anyone in Newfoundland and Labrador who believes that our interests or· desires are. given any weight at all by the Government of Canada:• So was I being non-partisan? AN RON. MEMBER: No. MR.

HICKMAN: ! was simply joining with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in bringing to the attention of my fellow Newfoundlanders that there is a lack of sympathy in the Government of Canada for the rather dire needs that we find particularly in the construction industry in Newfoundland at this time. moneyt~~~ in public 'Wlorks' let me say that. But unfortunately ·--' there has been a decrease dollar-wise each year in the amount of money that is being spent in this Province by Uncle Ottawa.

And I had here somewhere an indication of the amount of money that is being spent by the Government of Canada and indeed in the construction industry in Newfoundland. In The Daily News, I do not know where it came from,but The Daily News is a . first class paper and I rely on what they say; i~ -~s a non-partisan publication and I know they would not publish anything that was not accurate. In the calendar year 1975 there :·was in this Province and registered with Canada-Manpower in the Province of Newfoundland, 17,089 workers in the construction trades.

In 19'76, just one year later,there were 22~259, now that is an increase of thirty per cent. Mr. Speaker, the point that I am trying to make is 1.938

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 709 NM- 2 MR.. HICKMAN: this - AN HON. MEMBER: No quorum. MR. HICKMAN: There is a quorum here, Mr. Speaker, the place is blockec1_~:ltp supporters on both si~es~ _ _ One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten - Is there a quorum called? MR.. SPEAKER: The Clerk will have to inform me that there is a quorum ~r~s~nt. - ·--I am infoDD.ed py th~ _G~erk that there is ? __ quorum present. MR..

HICKMAN : _ Mr • __ S~eaker, the point that I am trying to make is this, that in the Province of Newfoundland there is a much higher depe~de~ce,regrettably,on the construction industry than in other provinces to maintain stable employment in our Province. There is an equally much higher reliance of the construction industry upon public funds, upon the expenditure by the two governments, t~~ in other Canadian provinces.

And what we have been imploring the Government of Canada to do is to recognize that at this period in our history that there should be an acceleration of· the i[ans that are presently on the drawing board. I know for instance that surveys were done in my district for harbour improvements in Grand Bank five years ago.

I know that the member of Parliament a· ·for Burin-Burgee· has been trying to persuade his colleague, the Minister of Public Works, to get on with ·a major harbour development in that port that is being chocked right now, a viable port where a viable industry cannot expand unless and until we get these port facilities. And some day will come.

And all we have as~ed of the Government of Canada is, ~~~ ~_ess-t~atbutt~n," and say, "Do not wait until 1978 or 1979 or 1980 or 1981, follow your old slogan, do it now." But as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition so aptly said in his letter, "There are verv_ difficult times in finding any interest on the part of the Government of Canada for the plight of the people of this Province." And that, ------- ·- · - -- 1S39

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 709 NM- 3 MR .. HICXMAN: Mr. Speaker,._is-what Confederation is all about. The gracious Speech from the _Throne, Mr. Speaker, referred to ongoing negotiations~ - ~~t:_f am having with my colleague, the hon. Ronald · Basford, the Attorney General of Canada, as ·a result of the programme that was initiated by the provincial government· _ - ·- - -·--- r . 1940

March 3, 1977, Tape 710, Page 1 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: within the past few months~ indeed, it was only-- so that there can be no doubt about it, Mr. Speaker, as' to .-wli'C)"" initia ted it, I have lost the date, -~;;-t it~ ~;-s this year,to have a unified family court established in this Province as a pilot project •. The reception that I have received from the Attorney General of Canada has been one of a great deal of sympat;hy. I expect. to meet· with him on -tomorrow, Friday, and I would e~ect that we will have made s~me progress by that time. ~ecause, Mr.

Speaker, it is becoming increasingly obvious· that what we need is a new approaCh, a _ brand new approach to· family law · in Canada and to family law in: Newfoundland. What we need; Mr. Speaker, is a court that does away with the adversary sysfem---;-acourt---wnose-pliiios·oplfy~--- MR. NEARY: Are you going to do away with the plea bargaining too? MR. HICKMAN: Fortunately in Canada, except at the suggestion of - -- - ___ .._ ___ _ Ottawa recen~ly, no Attorney General that I am aware of· subscribes --- - - - ~-------- -------- - --~ to the' philosophy of plea bargaining·. . But fortunately, Mr.

Speaker, I think the mood of. Canada is that the adversary system in family law must disappear. The courts must have the philosophy of maintaining the family unit, of' trying to keep the family together rather than have them. square off in court under the rules of evidence and subject each other to vigorous cross-examination which has the tragic result of driving them further apart,in most cases, and most assuredly does not put the family · compact and the children to the fore. I ha~ hoped, Mr. Speaker, and in fact I am bold enough to suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that there will be in this Province--before 1977 comes to a close, a pilot project cost- shared by both the Government-of- Canada and the Government of M---- Newfoundland of a unified family court. If it works then we have to find a judge whohas that kind of understanding in philosophy with respect 1.941.

March 3, 1977, Tape 710, Page 2 - apb MR. RICKMAN: to the family - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, please call a quorum. MR. HICKMAN: Oh, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Collins): I would ask the Clerk to determine ---- whether there is a quorum or not. A quorum is not present. I would ask the Clerk of the Rouse if he woald again determine if a ~ q~o~~is present. I am informed a quorum is present. ~e hon. the Minister of Justice. MR •. RICKMAN: Oh dear!

I thank the hon. gentlemen opposite for providing me with the exercise of getting up and down. · I think it is worthy of note that there is only one member of the Official Opposition in ~~s place at this time. Let the record so- note. -I commend the hon. the member for Windsor- Buchans for . ~~v~ng -Us an indication that he will assiduously attend to his duties as the elected representative for his district. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, may I say that I would hope that we will see, as the Speech from the Throne indicates, a very strong experiment in the unified family court concept in this calendar year. Now, Mr. Speaker, in closing may I direct my attention for one minute or so to the text of the bon. 1942

~farch 3, 1977 Tape 711 IB-1 the member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir O"r. S innnons) . He treated us to a dissertation on Tuesday and his text,as I recall,was that the Progressive Conservative Government and the Progressive Conservative Party is the party of tomorrow, the party of the future. SOYE RON. ~ERS: Hear, hear! ~~. HICK¥ .AN: lfuereas the Liberal Party is the party of tpday. ~e 1 ~-~edJ ~ his rather something less than kind comments towards the ho~. the Premier, he likened the Premier to that great Canadian, S.ir John A.

MacDonald, the Father of Confederation, the man who is - ~es~-~~:;_i_!l~~ for the British North America Act, the man who is responsible for founding this ~great __ nation, the man who wrought a constitution that has lasted for 110 years. Now, Hr·. Speaker, I am not su-r;e - and ·I could not as I listened very carefully to the hon. gent;leman for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir n•r.

Simmons) - as to whether or not he was praising the Premier~ whether he ~.ms envying the hon. the Premier, ltut whether he realized it or not he was most assuredly moving a vote of confidence in the leader - - ----- ---of the __ gove~~P:t: _<?E____!:_his Province. Because everything he said indicated very clearly his confidence that what he .wants to see,and what we are providing on this side of the House,is a government of tomorrow and not a government of yesteryear. ¥I. Speaker, Newfoundland is not peculiar in this attitude. There is nothing peculiar about Newfoundland in this.

Only two Canadian prc;~I:D:ces now ·em.b- ~ace_- ·- Liberalism, Prince Edward Island with a population of the City of St. John's,and the Province~ of Nova Scotia. And yesterday in Saskatchewan there was another great and glorious vict ocy for Toryism, for Progressive Conservatism, when 1:-1e satv the Progressive Conservative Party,which was not even in the House but two years ago, which I now understand has become the official Opposition by winning t~ more by-elections in Saskatchewan. SOME RON. ME}"BERS : Hear, hear! ~. RICK¥ .AN : This brings them up, I believe, ¥r. Speaker, to twelve 1943

¥.arch 3, 1977 Tape 711 IB-2 MR.. HICRl-I'AN : seats in the legislature, two seats that had previously been held by the Liberal Party. I say, Mr. Speaker,that when the hon. gentleman for Burgee- Bay·d'Espoir says to this Rouse, '~at of that clarion call that went out from this Rouse in the Speech from the Throne when it asked for a renewed commitment from all our people to the work ethics of our forefathers?n Heaskecf i the question and attempted to answer it but did not".,but suggested that that call has not gone out, that people do not want in Newfoundland a party of tomorrow. May ;r say, ¥r •.

Speaker, that whilst I cannot speak for all the people of Newfoundland as to how far it did go out, shortly thereafter, ~r. -----~-- Speaker, I had the very encouraging experience of having someone of Holy Orders forward to me a copy of the vagni:ficat. AN HON. 'MID'IBER: }fagnificat. ~.

RICR¥.AN: -Magniticat - that:is right; tha t is -in.y .non-..:conforlllist ___ _ - -~----·------ ---- ------ ----------- ------------·· -------- ·--------- background - of the Church of St •. ~ary the Virgin which came out the following week endorsing the exhortation to all-able-bodied men that ·-- ---- came from the House of Assembly on lvednesday, February 2. May ~~. POBEPTS : Does the minister feel the ¥agnificat is right on this issue? ~. HI CIQ1'AN: 1-lhether they are right or whether they are wr~ng, it is obviou~ly very clear, }'!r.

Speaker, that Newfoundlanders are responding to the call, that Uewfoundlanders are. still regarding this Legislature, }~r·. Speaker, as being relevant, that they are still prepared to support the party that is looking ahead and has tomorrow as its watchword and that they "~>Till nO't support that new theme song of the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons). }IR. ROBEP.TS : Hear, hear! Well said, well said! M:R.mciMAN: -- His theme song,that I am sure must be upsetting the ---hon. the Leader of the Opposition ,is. that as far as his party is concerned there is no tomorrow.

There is no tomorrmv ,and I have watched some of the more recently elected members sitting opposite as they looked 1944

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 712 Page 1 - mw Mr . Hickman. with concern and amazement as they saw their hopes being dashed to the ground, as they saw that all their efforts to get elected and fight manfully and mightly, to some day form the government over here, being dashed to the ground by the theme that has been - -~.ho~~e<! _ ~nd ~~~t .. f~rth - bv the . elder -· st~te~an of thP_ party, the chief whip, the whip of the. party~when he says, "There is no tomorrow." There is a difference, Mi. Speaker. There is a real difference between the two parties. This, Mr.

Speaker, is indeed the party of tomorrow and the party opposite is the party of the past. And I say _2tvive· ~,e di.fferenc _e,.Merci beaucoup - - -- ·- - --- - Mons_ieur:- _le President._'' SeME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: The han. ·member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker • SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, in speaking in this debate to the amendment, the first thing I want to do is what some of my colleagues.who have gone before have done,and that is welcome into the House and congratulate them on winning their seats into the House Assembly~ ~h~ - - bon. member for Ferryland (Mr. O'Brien) who although is not in his seat now,based on his performance to date and based on what I know to be his commitment to his district, will be with us for a long time; the bon. member for Bonav·ista North (Mr. Cross) who, Mr.

Speaker, I had the privilege to know long before he became a member, and now that he is in the House of Assembly I wish him well. I know that he is as dedicated to the becterment of his district as any other member elected, and I wish him well, and I congratulate him on his success; and, of course, the han. member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey). Now, Mr. Speaker, coming from Buchans, from Central Newfoundland,! want it to be known in this House that I have had a close association with the district of Exploits and particularly - - --- 1· 1.945

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 712 Page 2 - mw Mr. Flight. with the town of Botwood, and I am well aware as well as any man in this Assembly the contribution that that hen. gentleman has made in his field of endeavour in the area that ha represents. And I suppose as good a tribute :_ as I could pay is simply - -1:~ -~~y __ th~~t _ ;O.-~l~- - 1:t b~ _that _ L ;;oulrLb~ve~;;de ._such a contribution twenty-five, thirty years down the road and had added so much to the way of life, and improved the way of life for so many people.

So regardless of how partisan the debates in this House get, Mr.o· Speaker, I want to assure the hen. member for Exploits (Dr. TWomey) that I hold that member· in great respect as do most of the . __ Pi:opl~e, ail of the people, not only in the district of Exploits but all of the people who surround the Bay of Ex:oloi ts~ Having said t~at, Mr. Speaker, I want to revert to a theme tha~ came up in this House last year, restraint and retrenchment. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know what affect the theme of restraint and rentrenchment has had on the rest of the members of this House, but I want to assure the hen. members opposite that I went back to my district - the community of Buchans Junction for twenty-five -----------.-years have _wanted a wa~~r_supply.~ I went back and I had meetings with those people after budget came down, and we accepted the fact that we would have to be responsible, and we were into a restraint situation, went back and explained,~ - "Tliat look,it would be irresponsible for you to expect a water system in Buchans Junction.

We will just have to wait until things improve. We have to tighten our belts." I told the peo~le of Buchans and Badger, who was requesting upgrading on the Buchans - Badger highroad, a road that is not fit to drive over, "That it is irresponsible to expect improvements on that road given the restraint situation." I met other groups. I did that, Mr. Speaker, I did it without fear of what it would mean to be politically that I was not delivering as a member. I did it because I believed in what was being said from the other side. And then, Mr.

Speaker, by coincidence I ended up in the district of Exploits for ten days. And I will :1946

March 3, 1977 Tape no. 712. Page 3 - mw Mr. l!'light- • . tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the lie was put to restraint in the district of Exploits. I am going to elaborate on what happened in Exploits for a minute, because I believe the. member for Exploits should get his ~aX_!:tl_the sun, because most of the. speakers who came. before me. have. talked about :Sonavista North. :But, Mr. Speaker, it was unbeli~able what happened in Exploits. From: one day it was a restraint situation . Whe.re. aU the members of the.

House were implored to go back to their- districts and say. it as it is, 11The Province cannot s~and . - you know, no more Santa Clause type of thing. We wi.ll have to spend ac.cord~g to what we can afford. We have to sacrifice socia .l - services :1947

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 713 NM- 1 MR. FLIGHT: to develop the resource industries! "Then suddenly, -- ---- overnight - CAPTAIN WINSOR: Bango. MR. FLIGHT: Bango, the tap turned on in Exploits. Now, Mr.- Speaker,~ am aware, I was there, and I am aware that the hon. member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey), the present hon. member~a~_one point in that election the hon.-member that he is, threatened to quit and s~id, "Loo~, I am not to be party to this type of thing. I am not going to be party to~the political prostitution that I see going on about me." AN HON. MEMBER: He is too fine a man. MR. FLIGHT: Too fine a man, Mr.

Speaker, he could not ,':~ stand it. But I am also aware that the Premier said, "No - - -- dissension in the ranks, we want that district. Pull out all the stops.' $750,000 for Point Leamington, pavement for Glovers Harbour, pavement for Northern Harbour, breakwater for Cottr -ell's- -Cove,.- recreation facilities for Bishop's Falls. Pull out all the stops. We want that district." And, Mr. Speaker, what they did not realize they did not need that type of thing in Exploits because the member could have won the district without that type of blackmail is unparliamentary, is it, Mr. Speaker?

I would have to withdraw it,would I? MR. SMALLWOOD: Political patronage. MR. FLIGHT: Political patronage is a good word. So, Mr. Speaker, the Premier said, "Let us get this district." And they got the district but they got it at a great expense to the taxpayer and to the members opposite,because I guarantee you that when the Budget Speech comes down I better not, and the other members in this House -And let me suggest something else, Mr. Speaker,_that is true, that members opposite got their backs up against the type of thing that went on in those by-elections. I am told by good sources, Mr.

Speaker, that the reason 1948

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 713 NM- 2 MR. FLIGHT: the ho~· __ _!ll_emj:ler tor Kilbride (Mr. Wells) is not a member of the Cabinet today is simply because he was the man who spoke most eloquently in this House with restraint. He was the man who impressed me, and that he would not take it. He could not tolerate it, he could not stomacru it so he got out. And I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. member for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) at the time who is now gone to greener field~ _a_s __ ~he __ _::______ CAPTAIN WINSOR: Greener pastures. MR.

FLIGHT: - greener pastures could not take it and that was one of the things that put him in a position to make up his mind,'' I am not going to be part of this •11 Nobody has impressed me in this House, Mr. Speaker, ~riy '~~~ than the hon. member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), and it is no secret he is not in Cabinet today because of his questioning of the financ:fals:itua-ti- ~n in this Province. And -- -·------ - that financial situation was not enhance~ by what happened in· the by-elections, by what happened in Exploits. And, Mr.

Speaker, come to· the next general election or come the next budget I would hope that we will not hear restraint. I guarantee you that th ~ people :living : --- And these by-elections were well placed, Mr. Speaker. There was one in Ferryland. There was one in · almost. Centra Newfoundland, Bonavista North,and one in Exploits. Those districts are situated geographically, Mr. Speaker, that almost every district in Newfoundland rub shoulders with the districts that were having it poured in and know the reason it was being poured in.

Restraint will not work anymore, gentlemen, they will not believe you, and why should they. Mr. Speaker, you know there is an old saying, man's injustice to man. I want to tell the Premier that if he will give me, or give the people of Millertown an ice plant for a 1949

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 713 NM- 3 MR. FLIGHT: stadium- they have a stadium, they do not have . t . an artificial ice plane-..:. I guarantee him beyond the shadow of a doubt that he will have a stadium named after him, and there will be no - CAPTAIN WINSOR: He has got one now sure. MR. FLIGHT: petitions or anything else against that type of thing •. · We will name the stadium after the Premier if . he will give us an ice plant in Millertown. MR. ROBERTS: They voted it down ninety-eight to two in Bishop's. MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr.

S~eaker, what we w~tnessed in the by-elections,and what the hen. members_ have to live .with,was blatant political patronage. And the next time around restraint will not mean anything, either to the members on this side of the House or I would suspect to a ·lot of members on that side of the House. Some of the hen. members went back to their districts after the by-elections and had to answer why it was that: they could not have their art~sian wells and why could they not have their fire trucks and the · social services that they saw just being thrown around in the districts. I saw trucks, Mr.

Speaker, with loads of pavement in the Exploits District that they did not know where to put· it. They did not know where to put it. Myself and ---- - - -- 1.950

March 3,1977 Tape 714 AH-1 MR •. FLIGHT: another han. member of this caucus were in a community and the street in that community was paved, the main street was paved,and the guy was saying,"Well where are we going to go _wit_h it ?~ -- _So_ go to the next community. It would be nice to know how many dtiveways got paved,~ot because it was deliberate or because it was ordered, but. because the poor guy did not know what ~lse to do with the black-top. AN. HON. .MEMBER: That is what they did in Hermitage. MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr.

Speaker, so much for the by-elections, so much for what we saw in Bonavista North and Exploits. __ ____ _ Som~ days _ago _ one memb~r ~PPOSite. . L think it was the hon. !llember for St.John's - North, on a point of order, indicated that · the speech that the hon. member ,for LaPoile · was giving was the same speech that he had given four' or five years,and that he should be ruled out of order. Well maybe so, Mr. Speaker, but why- not the same speech, the same problems are all here ; _ _.

Th~ - speech that I made last year, the first speech that r made in this House, I think it was a Budget Speech~ r can make the same speech today with some credibfUty __ because n9t one thing, not one iota lvas. changed. We still have all the same problems that r talked to this House about. MR. ROBERTS: It is the government that should be changed, _. not the·- s ~-peech. MR. MURPHY: That was 1950 and 1951. MR. FLIGHT: The problems are all there, Mr.

Speaker, th~ high unemplo~nt the worst labour relations problems this province has seen for the last twenty-five or thirty years, unheard of electrical energy costs - -- - still ~scalating, bankruptcy all over the place, Mr. Speaker, wherever you go bankruptcy, and the kind of bankruptcy, Mr. Speaker, that is costing this province jobs. So the problems are all there, so why not make the same speech? If the performance of the government is no better in the next twelve months· 'than they were this past twelve . months,then I will be making identically the same speech.I 1951.

March 3,1977 Tape 714 AH-2 MR. FLIGHT: will have no choice, I was sent here to find out the problems of my district, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am going to use some examples to noint . out what must be , will have to prove the incomt>~tency o~ this -governm~I?-.!- · ~~d the -=_ap~thy_an<! the __ indifference to - ~ule--. . ~ Newfoundland. The Buchans Task Force Report, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker Buchans .was there for fifty years; it was self sufficient up to fo~r or· five years ago,and then we got into labour situations, and one strike with violence, and suddenly the government became - ---- ----- --·-- ------ - --- aware, ;- and p_r_e_t_e_n_d_e_d_th_~y-~~~ _ ~athet~~ and serious tn . r.m=:~t._ ... _ happened to the Buchans problems.

So they set up the Dyer _ enq~ry and that enquiry was completed, it took almost a year, it was presented to· government,and in as far as I know,and I am prepared to stand corrected,that the only recommendation that came, that was implemented,out of the Dyer Report was .the establishment of a Buchans Task Force. And that took, as I said before in this House,at least a year and it took all kinds of pressure from pressure groups, unions in Buchans to get the task force set up. The task force, Mr. Speaker, took a year to do the work that they had undertaken to do.

The government had given the people of Buchans the impression that with this task force-r sat in on the meeting,as the present Minister · of Forestry will know,when the Buchans Task Force was put together: _.=-·and ~ one .:Of~th_~ __ q~estions that . I asked the minister : -as a member of this meeting was, "Mr.

Minister, what assurances can you give the people of Buchans that the government will take· the recommendation of the task force seriously­ that they will implement any of the recommendatio~s?• And if I • i recall,basically., the minister's answer was -that ·, i•iite. v_ery fact that we are here, I would not be here if I did not believe in the governmen~ intentions with regards to the implementation of the task \1 force report. Well I wonder what the minister has to say now, Mr. 1952

March 3,1977 Tape 714 AH-3 Speaker, a year and a half after the task force report was submitted, eight months since the cabinet received the report, and not one programme implemented except, one and I will come to that _o~e::- : - ' the minister looks up:·_ t will come to that one. Now one ,- --··· recommendation, let me read some of the types. of recommendations · that could. have been implemented. ~'The-Task. Force ~ recommends that the provincial government give the highest possible priority to the construction of the highway to the Trans-Canada Highway via Rowley and that this road be completed before 1979.

The absence of the Howley road reduces the opportunity of the Buchans residence to share in the expenditures of the .. . travelling public . and tourists • As previously indicated, the· Task~~~ ._rorces believes only the Howley road can be completed before major reductions in the mine occurs. The Howley road will provide access to forest timber stands in the Rinds . Llk:~- -~jE!ai; __ ~ar;i of Rinds Lake offer- and ........ ---:---:-- ·, tlieYj_ ga on to justify the Howley ·- ~ad. Listen to this one, Mr.

Speaker. r wish· the Minister of Manpower and Industria1 Relations · ~w~~- ~J;_!!_~~Il,J,:_· _ _ "The Task F'Q_r~d' recommends., .therefore , .,-~ ~~~_e sta_!Jli~~nt of a Buchans Development Corporation to -=co-or~~at~, -advisE;·a~d ~~ecute --- - --- - ----- -- ---·- ---- --·-- -- --

March 3, 1977 Tape 715 PK -1 Mr. Flight: : I "' . - social. and economic a ctfviffes -nec essaiy- fo r -the surv!vil.and ·--- future prosperity of Buchans '¥ld its residents !• · Now, Mr. Speaker, the setting _up of that development corporation would not have cost the Province of Newfoundland a penny, .but that development corporation is not in place, nor is one of the twenty recommendations made by the Buchans Task Force in pl~ce, not one.

Mr~ Speaker, what is happening in Buchans - we have been given by this report until . 1979, the mine wil~ go in 1979, ' it is stated four or five times in this report, that is no more than a year and a half, Mr. Speaker. And tha recommendations in that report indicates what can be done in. th~ event the mine goes in order to guarantee the people of Buchans some viable, prosperous future. Not a Cabinet minister has had the decency to make a statement with regards to the implementation of the recommendations in· this report. This government, Mr·. Speaker, is permitting a crisis situation to develop in Buchans.

By 1979,1£ al~ of the expertise that was available to this Task Force was right,the mine will start to curtail, and then the government wil~ rush in with make.-shift, hodge-podge programmes that will not be in the better interest of Buchans, will not be in the better inter~st of the Province, will not·work. There are 4,000 to 5,000 livelihoods involved here, ·: ---~------ ' Mr. Speaker. You know, -=- the~ e ( - -- ---_Buchans, whose whole economy is based on Buchans. The town of Badger have got people, twenty or thirty employees,who work in Buchans in the mines~ What will happen to those people?

The ___ towtt of Botwood have got people who works, and whose livelihoods depend :'on the successful operation of that mine. And this government have completely and categorically ignored, . Mr. Speaker, the pleas from the people of Buchans, and more important they have ignored the advice of the people that they spent $180,000 on to get, $180,000 plus. - ,__ _____________ - ·-- ---- ·-- ~ -- - --- ~ 1954

March 3, 19 77 Tape 715 PK 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR .. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Premier indicated that the government had indeed done something that was recommended by the Buchans Task Force, that they had incorporated the Town of Buchans. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear~ MR. FLIGHT: Well let me assure this House and the hon. minister that the recommenaations for the incorporation of Buchans did not necessarily have to come from the Task Force. It was recommended to the government of this yrovince twelve to fifteen years ago that Buchans would incorporate.

But it did not happen,and the reason it did not happen, Mr. Speaker, because the company at that time in Buchans was not buying, they were not interested in incorporation, and they had · thei~ reasons not to. And since that time, and prior ',! ' ~) to the setting up of the Task Force, Mr. Speaker, the reason for incorporating Buchans ~hanged, At one time when a man retired in Buchans he was given one month to move out of his house, Mr.

Speaker, and there was no power that could stop that, But as a result of the changing attitudes and the result of strikes and what have you in Buchans, the attitude changed, and there is now - and long before incorporation was brought about there were people living in their hames in Buchans long after they retired and simply paying their .rent. So the great crunch, the great reason for incorporation had gone. Incorporation cannot improve the level of services being provided in Buchans today, and- nobody on the Task Force or nobody on the sub-committee indicated that that i t could. But , Mr.

Speaker, the government decided that they would incorporate Buchans anyway. Now I sat on a sub-committee, Mr. Speaker, that recommended the incorporation of Buchans, but nobody in their right ' mind would recommend the incorporation of anything or would recommend anything without some terms of reference or without some agreements. And here is the situation, Mr. Speaker, Couilng - · out of the sub-committees report on local government for Buchans, it says, Mr. Speaker~"lle~~ by 198(}--;;.. a year and a half by now, I am sorry, ~955

March 3, 19 77 Tape 715 PK - 3 Mr. Flight: ' would require revenues in the order of $420,000 per annum, and possibly greater.u Now, Mr. Speaker, all Summer, all last Spring I went to the various ministers concerned, the present Minister of Mines and Energy· and the present Min_ister of Municipal. Affairs and pointed out my concerns with the ·way the government was moving to incorporate Buchans. Up . to this point"there had been no input at all from · the people of Buchans. None whatsoever.

There was no p~ehiscite, no effort made to tell them- what wolJ:ld happ~, . what - the price of -their . - homes would cost them, · what . financial. contribution the' mining company or the paper company would make towards the. town, ~~~eth~r . or not they would have a right to own their own homes, nothing-; ·--- - - -- -. . -- ....... l 1956

}•arch 3, 1977 Tape 716 IB-1 ¥R . FLIGHT: -· Just that go straight ahead and incorporate. I 111rote, Mr. Speaker, -a letter-~ th~- han. l"!inister of !<':unicipal Affair~ Now 'would any member in this House deny that these were reasonah1e conditions to be asked on behalf · of the people of Buchans? _!_wili_!"_iad fr~llf __ t:h~_ le_ t:_t~~-~ -~~- ~ .Spe~ker, dated October 27.

"It is unthinkable to me, ~r. ~inister-, that incorporation will be forced -upon the .peopie ' o:f 'BW:hans without the people knowing what th~homesliill cose~Will the people have a right or a choice to either purchase outright or continue to rent? ~fuat financial contribution will Asarco or Price (Nfld .) Limited make. towards maintaining the present level of essentfaf ~ and recreational facilities in this incorporated · Buchans?

HAnd it is unthinkable .- =3nd-;Mr------:-sp_eake~th=!:_s_ .. is imp~~ti-l!:t; __ -that incorporation be brought about in the ~~o~- -~f- ~ ~-c~aD.s: population approximate~Ly- 3 · ,ooo,with no input from the people concerned, with no effort by your department to ;: ~~1.-:!~J:it~ them as to what effect financial or otherwise ~corp~rati~~l ha!e:• 1Mr. Speaker, that wa~ ignored. Buchans is now incorporated and there are, Mr. Speaker, 3,000 people, 500 families up there who are frustrated; they do not - -·----- know what incorporation will mean to them. ~·7e have a Board of Trustees set up, Mr.

Speaker, to negotiate with Asarco for what the properties, whether or not 'the houses will be sold, whether or not the company will contributa to the financial upkeep of the recreational facilities ·. This is being nego ·tiated, but the town is incorporated. Ve are looking at taking a company off the hook for $200,000 or $300,000, Mr. Speaker. When the minister stands up to speak,I would hope that he points out to this House that if it takes $420,000 per year to administer the affairs of Buchans th~t-- -.;.There he visualizes that $420,000 . coming from the co~panies operating. There pressure is put on. Yr.

Speaker, furthermore there is not a member l•IDO had anythin _g to do with this report, the sub-committee report or the main ,_ Task Fore~ or anyone in the Municipal Affairs Department who can indicate to me that the company ;: 1.957

}-farch 3, 1977 Tape 716 IB-2 Y-P_. FLIGHT : involved asked to have Buchans incorporated. They are sitting back there,. ~rr. Speaker, and they are saying, "Leave them alone. Let them come to us. They are going to take this off our hands.'' That is exactly what is happening. In order for Buchans to carry on its basic services at the same level they are going now, I say to the minister, that his department will have to provide funds over and above anything that is provided -for in any act in _ ~~~()~n~l:_and right now.

There is no municipal act that will allow the kind of funds that Buchans will require to maintain its level of services. The taxation base is not there. It is just not there. · So I would presume that the minister is saying that we have incorporated Buchans and if it takes S420,000 to administer the affairs of' the town - if we have taken Asarco out under the hook 1 then we will provice the $300,000 that is necessary. MR. WHITE: The minister ~rill confirm that. 7'-!R. FLIGHT: I am expecting the minister to confirm that because that is exactly what the situation is going to be. I also would expect, ~r.

Speaker, that, when this sub-committee, when this Board of Trustees have finished their work,anc they have negotiated as good a deal as is possible with Asarco, then the people of Buchans will be given the right to decide w·hether or not they want to continue 'tvith -incorporation and whether or not they indeed . do want to be incorporated under the terms and conditions negotiated by that Board of Trustees. AN RON. MEMBER: A committee should have been set up. }T .. FLIGHT: That is what I asked in the first place, Hr.

Speaker, I asked that a co~ittee be set up before we would go into incorporation, that a committee would be set up to negotiate the things that I have just asked. And the minister says to me, "I have set up a cornnittee. I have appointed a Board of Trustees." The minister has effectively incorporated the town of Buchans with no input whatsoever from the people of Buchans. i· 1958

~arch 3, 1977 Tape 716 IB-3 ?1Ra FLIGHT! . Now~ Mr• Speaker~ lUndsor, as I said 'last year fn my speech, one of the f>ldes-t incorporated towns in Newfoundland today l 1~~(~--- year- _:_,- came to the Department of Municipal Affairs and asked t'hat they would be given some consideration to enlarge their tax base. rVindsor . does not have a tax base. 'Hindsor' s problem, Mr ~·Speaker, is that they have eomething in the vicinity of ~_ ,QQQ_o_r 9,000 people and the only revenue that has been generated in that town is residential revenue, taxes,. property taxes, water and sewerage services and·. tbat..=type of thing.

Shey are probably not generating en_ough service to admi.xlister that faeility. Year · after year the town council of Windsor have co1;11e to the minister !?f· _the day and said, ''Look, we have· to: have assistance to develop a tax base. We want to develop an· - - -- ---- . --- - -- - -·-------- --- - --- --- - .·, 1.959

'· March 3, 1977· Tape no. 717 Page 1 - mw Mr. Flight. industrial park ·~nCi thereby create __ ~ tax base.'' Mr. Speaker, .. ~ .... ~ the performance of the town council in Windsor cannot be a reason why the minister is withholding that type of assistance. Th~ present town council have tripled the tax rate in Windsor in ~eir term of_ office, and there is a municipal election coming next Fall, and in the three years that they have served they have practically tripled the t~ rate in Windsor.

They are facing this year a reassessment of property values : in Windsor which will have the affect . of again:Ul creasing the amount of money that it will cost a: person to live in Windsor. Year after year, Mr. Speaker there is no other source, Mr. Speaker, for this kind - Windsor cannot generate. They have not got the ability to generate the kind of money it would take to develop an industrial park, and develop a tax base for · the- . town that will enable them to improve their present leveL of services,or to expand on their town and expand on their various facilities. What has happened in Windsor, Mr.

Speaker, is criminal. You. have a situation where you have two sister towns, nothing separating them but a railroad track, and the standard of living goes up in one and down in the other. And that type of thing is being perpetrated, Mr~ Speaker, and that type of thing - has been guaranteed by the action of the Government of Newfoundland with regards · to Windsor. Every year it gets harder :,: Mr. Speaker, There is no enticement today in Windsor for a person who is moving in or a business that is moving into Central Newfoundland to establish in Windsor.

The attitude of the Newfoundland Government indeed encourages · ; they are not going to Windsor. I am aware, Mr. Speaker, of one of the biggest business firms in. Central Newfoundland having waited for two years to establish a plant in Windsor. And having waited twa years they -~aid r · ''Enc)~gh is enough," and moved into · Crqmer Avenue in Grand Falls. And when. that happened, Mr. Speaker, the revenue that Windsor so badly needed was lost to Grand Falls. ·1960

--...... """'---··--·- -- -·~- ~-···-·--·---~ ... - ........ ____ _ March 3, 1977 Tape no. 717 Page 2 - mw Mr. Flight. So, Mr. Speaker, when vou say you are making the" same speech you made two years ago or a year ago or five years ago, how can you help it when this is the type of thing you are faced with? This is the type of approach we have seen by this administration. Mr. Speaker, if -~~i~ __ go!_e~~-~t is going to meet its responsibilities to the people of this P-rovince, and to the people in communities such as Windsor,then they are going to have to change the tack -that they have take up to now.

They have got to stop ignoring Windsor. Thev have got to stop being a government who recognizes the haves. This is a government, Mr. Speaker, that rec9gnizes - you know, you have the have-aDd -lia.ve.::.~ji_ov_ini:~_s- ~_~d you have the have and have-not towns .-and this government recognizes -- - ·-· you know, to those that have,shall receiv~_tand those that have not, that not even that which they have shall be taken from them. And, Mr. Speaker, that is the type of approach we have seen in Windsor. r would hope, Mr.

Speaker, that with a new minister and with a new approach recognizing the efforts that the people of Windsor, the councils of Windsor and everybody else have put in, the patience they have shown, the efforts they have made, I would hope that when the budget comes down that after five years anyway, if not twenty-five, have been ignored, that Windsor will ind~ed will get the type of attention it needs· to guarantee its place, to guarantee that it can grow the way it should be allowed to grow, the way it can grow, the way the potential is there for it to grow. - I would also hope, Mr.

Speaker, that the minister, when he stands up now, will address himself to~~e fatterson re~ort. His predecessor did not do it. It has been a year now since the last statement was made in this House with regards to the recommendations _of the Patterson report. What now? What is the present minister's approach to the Patterson report? Mr. Speaker, I could go on and on about Windsor. Mr. Speaker, the reason the situation exists in Windsor and Grand Falls today is the 196:1

March 3' 1977 Tape no .. 717 Page. 3 - mw Mr •. Flight. dismal. . and complete lack of attention to the problems by the previous government, all of them, going back to 1949, not just the past five years, up until.l949, the. works,, the 'Whole shebang. But two wrongs do not make a right, Mr. Speaker. This government came into office with the intention of- ·tigbtitt _g· all th~ ;~o~s ·. Mr. Speaker, this government have gone further in six jears ·- - ------ -, ---- --- --- -- - -..:.: __ '----· ·· ... - - - ---- . -- -- . ----- .. . . --- ' p 1962 '

March 3, 1977, Tape 718, Page 1 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: by way of increasing the provincial debt of this Province than the past administration went in twenty-three years, and they have gone further in political patronage _i_n si~-~~~~ than the other party went in twenty- three. Would someone on the other · sidi care to show me an Auditor General's Report -that was such an -lrutictment ~ · - · ·-- ------- of th~ other administration as :. this one ·is? Every page is an ._!ndi.c.tment. ; ~ow let me get to that committee. Very smart a few days ago, Mr.

Speaker, I got up and asked the M~nister of Municipal Affairs a question. I asked him something to. this: extent, . "'Was there any imput? Did the people of Buchans ask to be incorporated?" His answer was very sharp and made me slink back in my seat. He said · that the bon. member was on a committee that recommended the incorporation of Buchans. Let me tell the bon. minister in the House my involvem.eut on that committee. r was indeed a member of that committee and I attended three meetings.

In the first meeting I indicated to the~i_nis:eer's appo!!l ~ent_foz:: __ c!:'&irman that I. was not prepared to serve in that committee unless we\ were-- ----- prepared to talk about incorporation.~! said before,only a fool would say, Let us incorporate under any set of circumstances. There had.to be terms and agreements. If the bon. minister is going out tomorrow and buying into something he just do not do it,L__lle is going to have· to have · agreements and terms and conditions. So to say that I was on that committee that recanmended incorporation, indeed I was.

I was- also on the same ·committee, the third -- -- ·- . --- - -- - and last meeting. because when I became actively invulved and realizing that I was going to run for this seat that I now hold I resigned from that committee. I thought that it was in my better interest and the better interest of the task force. I was also on the committee, Mr. Speaker, when five consulting firms w-ere laid before that committee 1963

March 3, 1977 Tape 718 JM- 2 MR. FLIGHT: and we-. were askea-to-;;Iec:t · consulting firms and the committee selected, I ~ not sure it was the lowest tender but it certainly was not lower than th~ one that the contract was given to. One of the minister's appointments to the main task force came in after our deliberations and he recoumended, he said now·, j~~ know,.. I have no objections to the company you are asking for, however this company has more expertise:_ · which was not~ -true:- : s~ the members of the committee had no reason not to, you know. What are you talking about?

A thousand dollars one way .or the other and here was a very responsible person sent:. down by the minister to tell us what. was right. or wrong. So, ' the consulting firm got that contract, _ Mr •. Speaker, and within two months the price had gone from ,- I was not: a member Ofth e couimittee ' - ----- --- - -~ - - ~- - .. - - then. It was too bad as I wish . I wereFt~~_ pi:f.:ce-~~a_(~ g~ne- fr~-­ - ~-~000 to $37,000 and before the job was finished the Minister of ---............. Manpower and Industrial Relations had. reco11111ended that $55,000 be· paid.

That was. the last meeting I had with that committee ·, Mr. S'peaker. So if you want to kn . ; __ involv~nt with_~ose ______ _ -- ---. . " _!::~ttees, that was- the extent · of my involvement w~th the cotmnittee_~ .. That:. $3-5,000 could have been a. lot. better spent. in Buchans, Mr. Speaker, than lining the pockets of some consulting firm. Mr. Speaker, what we got as a resul~ of that. consulting firm was a sheaf of paper of which the letterhead of the American Smelting and. Refining Company was taken off and the letterhead of that. consulting firm was put back on. So, Mr.

Speaker, the~e may or- ~ - - ----- --- may not have been vested interests. There may or may not have been people who had _ ax~ - . t ~~rind .. _or who had ulterior motives, but - ' certainly that was one instance where there was not too much imput from the people of Buchans or even the sub-committees. There were thirty-five people involved in sub-committees in that task force report, and that is one instance that the local people did not have too much imput. I wonder really how much imput they had totally. 1964

March 3, 1977 Tape 718 JM- 3 MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, I am going to suggest that they amend ·it and that is all I am going to say about Buchans and Windsor right now. I have another favourite subject of mine, tourism, and the minister is not in his seat again. The minister made a statement, Mr. Speaker, today, an earth-shattering, revolutionary statement. He said that be was not going to use computers. MR. WIIITE: He is going to use computers. MR~ FLIGHT: He is going to use computers. Thank you, my hon. friend from Lewisporte. Now, }.fr • Speaker, ~ 1965

_____ .-.;....;_; :.....:;_, ______ ~---- · ---. ------ - March 3, 1977 Tape No. 719 NM- 1 MR. FLIGHT: I remember sitting in this han. House last year when that han. minister got up and he said, "We are not going to use computers this year because the computers - - -caused a sh~ozzl ~- It was a terrible thing what -- _tha c~~ter s- had d~ne~- And now a year later he is going back to computers. Mr. S~eaker, I stood up in this Housa last year and I supported the new programme for tha issuing of moose licences. I thought it was a good thing. It was a good thing. But, Mr.

Speaker, within davs _after_ th~_minister had indicated this is the programme we-are going to use,his officials in Wildlife and his officials in Tourism had made a complete shambles of'what he said. Nothing happened the way he said ~t was going to happen. tet me relate a little story to you. A lot of people coming in_~round sometime in early August had been calling me and asking me when the moose licences were going to be issued. And it got. to a p_oint that every day I was getting calls and I did not know,so I decided I would '~;].l·a very high official of the Department of Wildlife.

It may or may not have been the minister. But this gentleman said to me, I told him the problems I was having and I would like to have some clarification, he· said, "Graham," he called me by my first name, he said, "I have never seen such a mess in my life. We have got thirteen people~ strung down he:r:e," he said, "and they are taking names out. of one barrel and throwing them into another and taking them out o:!ailother and throwing them into another and," he said, "if it goes on, the job will not be finished until the end of November.

The moose season will be closed." He said, "The next man who mentions computers to me will be shot." He said, "You know it is -~-- just one complete shemozzle •. " So I said, ''When will, ·· given all that, when will the draw be complete?" "Well," he said, "it will be two weeks from now before we complete ' l

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 719 MR.

FLIGHT: the draw." --~- - ----- - -- ---- --- - ------- - I said, "Would ~ou ~o me one fav~ur_, ___ _ and I think if you do you will be doing a lot of people a lot of favours~ do not send any moose licences or approvals out until the draw is complete because the first time a moose licence arrives in Buchans or Windsor, guys who have applied are going to call me and say, well- when _iS_ ni:t.iie going to - - - come_type thing~ But send them all ou~ the one time, make a ministerial statement and say the licences are all in the mail and that will get us off the hook." The minister said, ''Yes, that is exactly what will happen." Within five minutes after that conversation r walked into the post office in B~chans, I was walking in and this guy was walking out and -----­he said, "Graham look, after three years I got a moose licence.

I got my moose licence." And I said, "You have got to be ·] ~king." II •• ' ' And he said, No, I am not joking ,and he showed it to me. < --~---~~------·------ --------Ten minutes ago the Minister of .. Tourism.._ haa _2one (. - \ ------- through the whole thing, what was·- about to happen,. _ and h~re was: __ _ \ a moose licence coming out ~of the mail. ~ow, Mr. Speaker, hon. House, is that what you call having a handle on your department? Is that what you call knowing what is going on in your ~epartment? Mr.

Speaker, what happened in the moose draw last year was insulting. three, four or five licences per family, people who were entitled to licences for four years not receiving one. Women who had never · seen a rifle, had never made application for a licence,were receiving licences on the first draw~ People who had never seen a rifle getting a licence. It was unbelievable, Mr. Speaker. AN RON. MEMBER: Pregnant women. MR. FLIGHT: My hon. member says pregnant women. Maybe,worse things happened: I know people, Mr. Speaker - MR. LUNDRIGAN: Does the hon. member suggest that pregnant women should not have a licence1 1967

March 3~ 1977 Tape No. 719 NM - 3 AN RON. MEMBER: Not in that condition, not in the advanced t stage. AN HON. MEMBER: You should not shoot pregnant women either. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I know of people~ I have their names and I have them put away for when the time comes, when we get a chance to debate the wildlife regulation for this year. The system broke down completelT• People were insulted. Mr.

Speaker, if we get a reoccurrence this year of what happened last year, if the moose draw turns out to be such a shemozzle, if people's basic rights, their to goodness hunters in this Province who will become poachers and they will become open poachers. MR. ROBERTS: Members like the minister over there. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, for the benefit of my han. friend from my neighbouring district - MR. LUNDRIGAN: With respect to the Chair/]:~ -will not take on this. MR.". FLIGHT: for whom I have great respect. MR. ROBERTS: The han. gentleman's respect for the truth, denying my statement. MR.

FLIGHT: - for whom I have great respect. Mr. Speaker, it did not turn on,I assure you, it did not turn on too many people in Windsor-Buchans or in Grand Falls or in Carbone~r, people ·who had for three or four years been trying for a licence and had not gotten one, to have turned on the TV and heard, and I am not saying it is right or wrong, but to have heard that the Premier and an han. Hiriister of the Crown were just o'· 1968

March 3, 1977 Tape 720 PK - 1 Mr. Flight: a~prehertded at some pond out here, Paddy's Pond,with eight or· nine quarters of moose, with no tags, with 500 partridge, and as the facts came out it became public that all terrain vehicles had been used, the very best of all terrain vehicles. We could not find out who the third party was, Mr. Speaker. We hear that the aircraft was"with the compli!!lenis'! But, Mr. Speaker, that type of thing did not. turn - I am not sure if they killed 500 partridge, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Some of them may have died of natural causes. MR.

FLIGHT: Some of them may have died a natural death. I understand that the Premier did not shoot a moose. I understand that the thought of shooting a moose MR.. ROBERTS: The minister.- shot the moose. MR. FLIGHT: -is not born ' to the Premier. So I am sure the minister will speak for himself when he rises. But that did not turn on the. people who did not get a licence last year, Mr. Speaker. It questioned the system of priorities. The fact that distinguished visitors~ distinguished residents now get licences 1 did not turn on the people of MR.

ROBERTS: They are those who say the Premier is only a .---- ---- distinguished visitor to the. Province. MR. FLIGHT: Right~ AN HON. MEMBER: The next thing we will be distinguished. MR. FLIGHT: So, Mr. Speaker, I would say to the Minister of Touri~ up to this point AN HON. MEMBER: The next Premier. MR. FLIGHT: - he have insulted the people of Newfoundland with the way that the issuing of moose licences have been handled. I am sure bon. members opposite agree privately with what I am saying. What do you do? Now, Mr. Speaker, there is another point comes up here.

The bon. minister in answering a criticism last -- -----: ,.. year said· "That nobody had any input into - I did not volunteer any advice on how the drew should be accomplished, should be done:' 1959

March 3, 19 77 Tape 720 PK - 2 Mr. Flight: !.am wondering _ if the minister is now going to give me the right an~ other hon. members of this House the right to have some input· into the new regulations that he referred today? I wonder? If he does, we will improve the moose hunting regulations. MR • .J. LUNDRIGAN: Are you going to get back to writing that little book righ~ now? Now 1 Graham 1 go ahead and tell him what you will -·--~ do .. MR. FLIGHT~ I will in. my next. speech.

I have only got five - minutes, and I could not possibly do it in five minutes, ther~ are too many improvements can be mad~-, to put down in five minutes. MR. NOLAN': The first improvement is _remove the minister.· MR. FLIGHT!" The first improvement is. - the first improvement is maybe not: remove the minister ·, _But. very seriously, the first improvement ___ _.~--- is to have a minister who-relates in some way to that type of thing, --------- to have a minister that went in the woods, and knows what he is talking about:,. you. know. Not a minister - if the hon. Minister of Tourism - i MR.

LUNDRIGAN: If the lion •. member from · - MR. FLIGHT: - left his backyard . iii St. John's by foot he would be lost, you. would have to call in. the RCMP to find him, you know. And this is t~e ~inister - MR. ROBERTS: : Move the amendment and you will get more time. MR. MURPHY: Oh, ol\~ Ah the Minister of Tourism thinks well when he took tbe Norma and GladiS· AN RON. MEMBER: So it is. _,.. ~ ---- - -- __ ... ~~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, h' 0 • MR. ROBERTS: The member from the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) he knows about wild life and the Norma and Gladys. MR. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, I have other things to say, and I am rutming out of time. But, Mr. Speaker, I want to say, and this will certainly be ~ change of thought all together. t

March 3, 1977 Tape 720 _ PK - 3 MR. FLIGHT: Out of a great deal of concern - MR. LUNDRIGAN: You have not told us about black bears and partridge. MR. FLIGHT: I am going to. AN RON. MEMBER: He only got five minutes left. MR. FLIGHT: Out of a great · deal of concern, Mr. Speaker, for tbe financial. affairs of this Province, out of concern as to ~ondering whether or not $50 million borrowed from Alberta recently was indeed in the better. interest of ~his Province, out of concern that the government may have acted outside of existing legislation, Mr.

S'Peaker, I.now move this amendment, and I would add to the sub- amendment , 'rAnd this House further regrets the action of the Ministry in agreeing to borrow ·without prior approval of the House the sum of $50 million in excess of the amount needed to defray the ·expenditures approved by the Legislature in respect of the financial year which ends 31st. March 1977. 11 ./ MR. LUNDRIGAN: On. a point of order.. Before the hon. member:- finishes his amendment ·• '. MR. ROBERTS: Seconded · by the: lady from St . George' s. --=-.::, ______ _::_ - MR. FLIGHT: Secoude~by the lady from St. George's. MR •. SPEAKER.(Dr •.

Collins): Point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: - before he finishes, I would just like to -. we have had the motion moved on the Speech from the Throne, and then we had an amendment-::. am I correct?- moved by the hon. Leader of .the Opposition? Was that correct? AN HON. MEMBER: Then we had the sub-amendment. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Then we had the sub-amendment which was moved by the hon.member from ~ - AN RON. MEMBER: From LaPoile - MR. LUNDRIGAN: - Lapoile (Mr. Neary), which was voted on I believe.

And then we have had a debate occurring subsequently now on the amendment,. since the vote on the sub-amendment, which has been going --- - ---- 1971.

March 3, 19 77 Tape 720 PK - 4 Mr. Lund rig~; on ever sine~.. Nor..r the hon. 11\ember is proposing to move . or· has started to move a sub-amendment to the: aJilendment. That will be a second sub-amendment. AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I am looking at the nodding· around that seems to be in order. AN ROll~ MEMBER: If the hon, gentleman would permit I could probably - -- - --- --- ~---- .. -.. - . ' k 1972

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 721 NM- 1 MR. LUNDRIGAN: Well I am just raising the question on a point of order while my colleague gets his - ·MR. ROBERTS: 't-1hile he gets - MR. LUNDRIGAN: I beg your pardon. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman - MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker,· no, r am just finishing off. This is apparently · in order that this kind of a sub-amendment can be moved to an amendment that has already been sub-amended .~d voted on. Apparently that is in order, eh? . MR. ROBERTS : Mr .. Speaker,. the hon. gentleman from Grand · Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) is known for his dilatory tactics and this is one of them·.. But even his . colleague, the gentleman - ~ MR. LUNDRIG.AN: Point· of order .. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am speaking to a point of order. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Point of order! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! · The hon .. gentleman is speaking on a point of order and I can only hear · one: at a. time. I will hear the hon •. ·-genti~an after, but the rules are quite specific .. -·-- ~ - There is a specific Beauchesne reference, that there can ._only be one point of order before the Chair at a time. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying, the hon. gentleman from . Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) is known for his dilatory • tactics. He raised a point '-of order which was not a point of order.

He made no submission and I think that if Your Honour were to look at the Hansard or Jour Honour was in the Chair -- and Your·Honour,I realize,was looking at the Standing Orders but he just got up and he . delaye~~-t~~-~eblate for two or three minutes, let me make it quite cl~r, there may be in fact I think there is a rule in the Rouse of Commons that in. respect of the debate on the Address in Reply there is only one amendment and one sub-amendment permitted. There is a similar rule in this House with respect to the budget debate, which is made on a motion that the Speaker do now leave the Chair. 1973

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 721 NM- 2 MR. ROBERTS: There is, Mr. Speaker, in my submission no such rule with respect to the Address in Reply. There was an amendment which stands in my name, that amendment has not been disposed of, it is being debated. There was a sub-amendment which stood in the name of the gentle~n f:r::~ LaPoile (Mr. Neary). It was debated at . some length, . was --Subseqtlently _i~ted on by the House, regrettably did not carry the day. The debate on the amendment continued. My colleague now proposes to move a sub-amendment which I submit is in order.

And if Your Honour wishes I wouid be quite prepared to offer argument t9 that end,and -if the sub-amendment is in order my colleague may continue. He has unlimited time,I submit, in line with the ruling Your Honour gave recently, as long as he deals with the subject of the sub-amendment, and then other lion. members who wish to speak to the sub-amendment may. That is my submission, Sir. MR.. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. : speaker, on that . point of order. MR.. SPEAKER: The han . the Minister of Rural and Industrial Development. MR. LUNDRIGAN: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition seems to be correct.

My move was c_ not -what is the word he used;' dilatarious I believe, or whatever such word it was , - to t_cy- _- ~o delay proceedings that were genuine • Maybe I a~ getting. .. ..-.;··' '· my jurisdictions . mixed u~t is the first time I h~ve seen a sub~amendment to an amended motion which already had a sub-amendment voted on. And I raised it quite legitimately and if the precedent is that we have more than one sub-amendment as· my colleague, the House Leader indicates, that is quite in order. I hope it is not out of order to raise a point of order. MR. SP:EAKER !" The han. member for St. John's East. MR..

MARSHALL: I would just like to draw to Your Honour's attention, guo ~ atio~ p~ge 172, section (207) of Beauchesne. MR.. SPEAKER: Beauchesne? 1974

March 3_, 1977 Tape No. 721 NM- 3 MR. MARSHALL: There are obviously sub-amendments allowed but it says, 11 A sub-amendment on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne - AN HON. MEMBER: On page 207? MR. MARSHALL: Page 175, paragraph 207. 11 A sub-amendment on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the ~~~one may be moved subject to the same rules as any other amendment. It must be relevant to the amendment and cannot raise a new issue. 11 Now, Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the sub-amendment moved by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (M~ •.

Flight) would perhaps be more suitably moved as an amendinent to the .Address in Reply. We have now an amendment already proposed which - deals~.,ith the policies of the government - ··--- , and the failure of the government to bring in programmes. This raises an entirely new and specific issue with respect .' to the financial dealings of the government, indeed since this Address in Reply has started and since the original amendment was put in.

So it would seerii an·-the basis -of the quotation from Beauchesne that while this particular amendment might be acceptable if it were proposed as an amendment to the Address in Reply,it is not as proposed as a sub-amendment to this particula~ . ~endment proposed by the Leader of the Opposition because it raises a· new issue. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, to that point raised by the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr.

Marshall); the amendment which stands in my name is '"That this House condemns the failure of the ministry to prepare and to present to the House measures adequate to deal with the problems confronting Newfoundland and Labrador today and demands that the ministry forthwith take all measures possible within their constitutional authority to alleviate these problems.'' -------~-------- ------------ ~ 1975

March 3, 1977 Tape No. 721 NM- 4 MR. ROBERTS : The $Ub-amendment which my colleague . from Windsor­ Buchans (Mr .. Flight) proposes to mpve, if it is in order, as I. believe it is~ : -~sh;-s_-~c, add the wor-ds, "And this House further regrets the action. of the ministty- in agreeing to bo~ow without prior approval of' the House:= and -so forth -- . the sum of $.50 million." - -----·-- .. -- l 1976 t

·. March 3, 1977 Tape no. 722 Page l - mw M1:. Roberts .' Mr. Speaker, I subm~t that that grows naturally out· of the amendment. The. amendment talks of constitutional measures. Obviously borrorlng money on the credit of the Province with the appropr~ate legislative approval: __ is_;a measure within the constitutional purview of the administration of the min~stry. ,r. : ~- : . .tl1"'6 And my coll~gue ~- proposes to talk about a spec~fic act which the. ministry have done. . There is no quest~on they .have done. it. The only question is whether it is proper, not whether ~t is . lawful. I believe ~t is lawful.

I subm~t,. Sir, that the sub~~endment, the ame~dment proposed by my colleague from Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Fl~ght') to the amendment wh~ch stands ~­ in: my name'lthat that sub-amendment, Sir~ grows naturally out of the second part of the amendment to the main motion, . the amendment wh~ch stands in my name. I subm~t, therefore, it is in~ order, Sir._ The. citation which the hen. gentleman referred to goes. on to say, and I believe he quoted these words, "It must be relevant to the amendment· and cannot ra~se a new issue •. " Well that is the basic rule - on any amendment, and it is a very good rule indeed.

Th~s does not ra~se " a new iSsue, Sir. It talks specifically about a ·measure possible within the constitutional authority. . . . Nothing could be more within constitutional authority, Sir, than raising . money on the credit of the Province. And that is a measure. And the government have taken a measure, and we propose, . Sir~ if ~t is. in order,to d~scuss that measure. r think it grows naturally. Like the _tree grows from the earth, the sub-amendment, Sir, grows from the _amendment. And I submit, therefore, it is in order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. ·MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to stand on a point of privilege of the House, and I am trying to help Your Honour out. Your Honour has to give a certain . __ .inf~_Emation to_:_ the Hous~ l:)_efore 5:00 P.M • . If Your Honour wil~ do it now, delay the. decision on the points of order, Your Honour,will just get under the deadline. ~ 1977

March 3, 1977 Tape no. ;:122 Page 2 - mw MR.. ROBERTS : Why not announce the Late Show then go on to-tha p~inta.of arder? --------------------------------------MR.. SPEAKER: I will announce the Late Show and then continue with tne · point of order. The three motions which will be debated at 5:30 P.M. are, and in this order: First, notice was given me by the hon. member for LaPoile OMr. Neary} arising from a question asked the bon.Minister of Mines and Energy dealing with the subject matter, the export of Churchill Falls power.

The second,- I have had to be selective. , I have bad notice of fou~,_ancl_ I have to select three ,_,.__the: second, notice was given me by the hon. member for Burgeo - · Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) arising out of a question asked the hon. Minister of Social Services, the subject matter, the hiring of married persons only policy at a project at Hampden._ And the third,notice of which was given me by the hon. memb~r for Terra Nova (.Mr. Lush),arising from a question asked the hon. Minister of Transportation on the subject matter of a regulatory agency to which ferry operators should be answerable.

Those are the three matters to be debated. Back on the point o,f order. I believe the hon. Minister of Justice was about to rise. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the position put by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, I suspect, . suggest • , will not stand caret:ul _sc;rutiny.

The hon. _ _. __ _____ -~--- . gentleman says that because we are talking about matters that come within the constitutional purview or framework or authority that is ~tra vire~\ the Legislature of this Province,and as the question of the expenditure or borrowing of funds is intra vires -- this Legislature, therefore, it. is relevant and does not constitute a new issue. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I'do submit tha~ under that argument the Beauchesne edict would be totally meaningless, because it would mean that so long as it was intra vire~ this Legislature, then any hon. member could move any sub-amendment and simply get up and say, "We have the right to deal with it in this Legislature, tharefor;, Mr. Speaker, it is not a new - ---- -- issue." Obviously, that is precisely what Mr. Beauchesne did not intend, 1978

March 3, 1977 Tape. no. 72.2 Page 3 - aw did not interpret: it: as meaninga It is precisely what the rules do not intend, and it is very c:lear that the issue raised in the new sub-amend1nent - I will not say the unprecedented - sub-amendment , · bu.t in el;even years t cannot recal~ that many· in an Address in Reply, but be tb,at as it may, .~'"--'-tha_t_·-_i_s_n_o_t_ relevant - ------ ·---- - - ------ -------------- - 1979

March 3 ~ 1977 Tape 723 IB-1 MR. HICKMAN: .r-- - - . - - is totally unrelated and constitutes a new issue ;!t and theref~re is - - -··-- ----- -- out of order ~ beeause ~ it specifically mentions in particular an item ~· AN RON. MEMBER: Without approval,by the way. MR. HICKMAN: And allegedly without approval. MR. SPEAKER: In deciding on this matter I will reread the quotation alluded to by !t I ·believe, the hon. member for St •. John's East (Mr. Marshall) and also another one. And both taken in context hopefully wLLl provide basis and gu!dance for the decision as well as argument · submitted ·by hon. members • Beauchesne • page 175 ~

section 207, "A sub-amendment on the Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne may be moved subject to the same rules as any other amendment. It must be relevant to the amendment and cannot raise a new issue." - ~~t-is quite clear and of course t