Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 131 (30th Legislature, 2nd Session)

30-2-131

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10 :00 o'clock, Mo:iday, June 16, 1975 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INT!lQ@_9 TION _QL__Q_UESi;'_� 403 7 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed let me direct the attention of the honourable mem bers to the gallery where we have 19 stud ents, Grades 6 , 7 and 3 standing, of the South Bay Eleme!ltary School from Northern Ontario as our guests. These stude!lts are under the direction of Mr. Brown. We als·:i have another 48 students from Fort la Reine Scho::il of Grad.e 5 standing, under the direction of Mrs. Carls�m, Mrs. Main and Miss Goodmon.

This school is located \n the constituency of the Ho:iourable Member for Portage la Prairie. On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome yo'.l here this morning. Presenting Petitions; Reading r1d Receiving Petitions; Prese:iting Reports by Standln,s and Special Committees; Ministerial Stateme nts or Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motio'.1; Introduction of Bills. ORAL _g_l]ESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op ;::iositio:i. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q. C. (Leader of the Offi cial Op ;::iositio:i)(River Heights): Mr. Sp,.:;aker, my question is to the First Minister.

In view of the announcement by Statistics Canada of the downturn with respect to the eco'l.omy, I wond3r if the First Minister is in a position to indicate any revision with respect to the estimates as f'lr as the economy is con cerned in Manito!:>a, and whether the government has a?:Jy intentio:i of altering its program for the next period of time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier)( Rossmere): Well, Mr.

S9eaker, the most practical course of action that could be taken by the governme!lt in the event of a significant d·:iwnturn would be to accelerate its program with respect to capital works and with respect to PEP related programs. We have mt't already once in committee to deal with the timing .J£ ca;Jital works p-ograms, and we have another meeting scheduled 11ery very soon. That's about the only change that we contemplate with respect to our efforts to try and countercycle to the turns of the economy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op ;::iosition. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister is in a position to indicate whether the government has received :rnvised figures with respect to capital rep::iir expenditm·es indicating the forecast for the remaining part of the calendar year a"ld fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Not spedfically, Mr. Speaker. I will have to check with '.h2 Minister of Indistry and Commerce, and elsewhere in the adninistratio:i. MR.

SPIVAK: I wonder if the Firat Minister is in a p'.lsition to indicate Nhether it's the gover;1me:it' s intention to in any way create any kind of incentive program fo:· the p�ivate sector to be able to pick up the slack in th2 d·Jwntura :if the economy? MR. SCHREYER: Well. Mr. Speaker, I d·Jn't know wh::it kind :if incentive pi·ogram o'.le might contemplate.

In the p::ist two or three years the major preoccup3.tion in efforts to pro ceed �ou.'ltercyclical to :he eco'l.omy, both federally and provincially, has been in the nature of capital works acceleration. and thro'.lgh PEP or analog;m3 programs which are through local government and private non-p>:ofit organizations. Anything else NO'.lld have to be in the nature of tax treatment. and in that co:itext the 23rd Jf June is Federal Budget night. I certainly would ·.Dt want to be more specific than to say that we have made certain proposals relative to what we felt to be needs of the econ::imy in 1975.

We !lave forward03d th:ise to the Government of Ca'J.ada and it's a matter to their determining their priorities. MR. SPIVAK: The First Minister indicated they would try to o'Jtain information with respect to the capital rep::iir expend'.tm:es.

I wond•3r if it would ·oe possible to furnish this H ous.e with a breako·it of the private sector capital and rep3.ir and ind::cate whether the fore cast now is substantially d·JNU over what was forecast originally for this year, and Nhether in real terms it is a realistic policy to b·3lieve that the slack sho•.ild only be '.lnd0:;rta1{en �JY ad:li tional public sector involvement? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, for every, let us say, $1 0 million or $ 20 million of public sector ca;Jital works acceleration or expansion, that is tantamount to that

403 8 June 16, 1975 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont' d) ..... much of increase d purchases of supplies and 5oods from the pri vate supplying sector. I don't know whether my honourable friend believes that the two are some complete and inter nal and divisible reality. They are not indivisible. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you , Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recr eation and Cultural Affairs.

Now that the Minister has heard from the committee that was investigating the incidence and the influence of violence in minor hockey, does the Minister plan to initiate further meetings with a view to coming up with some recommendations in that area ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. RENE TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recr eation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfield): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I do intend to meet again with the committee follo wing the adjour nment of the sessi on.

Ce rtain recommendations are being implemented right now, more particularly, in regard to more training for referees and coaches. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a different question to a different Mi nister, to the Minister of Labour. Has the Minister of Labour had any requests from the Minimum Wage Board, or from interested parties , for an extension of the deadline for entering recommenda tions and submission s with a view to an increase in the present minimum wage ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Labour. HON.

RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour)(T ranscon a): Mr . Speaker , I rec eived a communication from the Chairman of the Minimum Wage Board, asking me if I would extend the deadline which I had originally set for June 20th to the end of the month, for the considera tion of the Board itself. I agree, Mr. Speaker, but I'm ho p0::iful those concerned with in the public and within the ind,.istry will still make their pres entatio ns to the Board :'Jy the date of June 20th. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker , and I thank the Minister for his infor mation.

The Minimum Wage Board therefor e now has until June 30 th, I ta.ke it, to forward its recommendations to the Minister. MR . PAULLEY: I think that is what I said, Mr. Speaker. If I was not clear, they actual ly requested , and I granted, that they did not have to report to nie until the 30th of June.

But again I want to re iterate I hope that those that are going to make pre sentations, or submit briefs, to the Minimum Wage Board, will do so by June 20th because I'm anxious, and I'm sure that the employees and the industry itself is amdous to rece ive that report in order to give what has been termed sufficient lead time befor e there is any change, if there is to be a ch ange in th e rate of the minimum wage. MR . SHERMAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Will the submission s be entered in the form of written submissions or will they be put forward through the form of public hearings ? MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Spea'rnr, it's my understanding that the Board has agreed not to hold public hearings but only to rec eive written presentations. TABLING OF REPOR'!'§ MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PA WLEY (Attor ney-Gen eral) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker , if I could have consent to table the annual report of the Human Rights Commission. MR. SPEAKER: Agreed ? Very well. The Honourable Member for Roblin. ORAL QUESTIONS (Cont'dl MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recrea tion and Cultural Affairs.

I wonder if the Honourable Minister would advise the House if the tender has been let for the co nstruction of the lodge in the Gull Harbour area of Hecla Island ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Tourism. MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Spea.ker. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney.

June 16, 1975 4039 ORA L QUESTIONS MR. EARL McKEL L AR (Souris-Kil larney): Mr . Speaker, I' d lik e to direct a question to the Minister of Municipal Affair s. I wonder if he could inform the House the dates of the district meetings to be held in the Province of Manitoba involving the Union of Municipalities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Att orney-Gener al. MR. PAWLE Y: Mr. Speaker, I don' t have those dates all handy just at the moment. wonder if I could give that information at 2:30 this afternoon. ORDERS OF THE DAY HON. SIDNEY GREEN (Minister of Mines, R esources and Environmental Management) (Inkster): Mr .

Speaker, would you please call Bill No . 63. MR . SPEAKER: Proposed motion of the Honourable First Minister, the Honourable Member for Riel. (Stands) MR . GRE EN: Well, Mr . Speaker, is there anybody who would speak on Bill 57 if I called it? I note that the Member ior Fort Rouge is not here. Bill No . 5 7, Mr. Speak er . BILL NO. 57 - THE PENSION BENEFITS ACT MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia. MR. STEVE PATR IC K (A ssiniboia): Thank you. I was still waiting for some informa tion on this bill, Mr .

Speaker, but I am prepared to go now and let the bill go to committee, and I know it will go to a special committee during the reces s. I welcome the legislation, Mr . Speaker , for better disclosu re and regulations of private pension plans, because, for the last several years this is something that I had requested the Minister of Labou r to bring in to this House, and I believe several years ago I had a resolution requesting the government to bring in some regulations in respect of pension plans. I know that the First Minister indicated that some of the pension plans are inadequate and I agree with him.

The only concern that I would have is that it would be very difficult to legislate what a pension plan should be in a private industry with exception of those that are negotiated in the agreements, but otherwise, where there is no union, I don't know how we can impose what the pension plan should be .

But I agree as far as pension plans are concerned, and even some of the governmental pension plans that are concerned they are inadequate because today the life expectancy of most people has in crease d considerably, and in the last 10 to 20 years we can expec t a person to enjoy a life expectancy of about up to 70 and 75 years. I think it's quite right to say that when people retire that they should enjoy to some extent, enjoy to some extent a standard of living in retirement that they had enjoyed while they were working in their later years of life.

I'm sure that this is not completely possible but surely, I believe, that this is something that is really the public expectation today, that they should have some relation to the standard of living in retirement that they enjoyed while they were working.

Now I know that there are options that the Minister broug ht in under the bill, one of the principles and regulations, and I feel that really that' s necessary, as the Minister indicated - and I jotted notes down - to protect employees after early retirement and sufficient informa tion, and at the present time there is usu ally not sufficient information as far as the private plans are concerned . I think that this shou ld be applicable to all pension plans, not only gov ernment and public plans but also private plans, which does not happen at the present time.

I do ask the Fi rst Minister - he indicated there would be full protection after 10 years, and I wonder if he meant that there would be full vesting after 10 years in a plan, and I'm not just sure. As I mentioned, I have not all the information under the bill but I wonder if there will be full vesting after 10 years in a pension plan, if that's what he meant by full protection, because at the present time this is not the case . The other most interesting principle in the bill, Mr .

Speaker, is the one that an integra \ion of a pension plan or an annuity with the Old Ag e Security Pension Plan, and I think this is most interesting, and I think it' s in the right direc tion, where an annuity of a private pension or a public pension can be integrated with the Old Ag e Secur ity Pension Plan. Ag ain I say this is really a step in the right direc tion.

I know that I have brought this to the attention of the House before, that we'v e had many many private plans in Canada, and they probably number in a few million people in membersh ip, and pro bably 20, OOO or so plans that are active, but the point was, what was the resu lt when the people took their retirement? I'll tell you it's unbelievable, because according to the Dominion Bureau of Statistics, and that' s a few years

40 40 June 16, 1975 BILL 57 (MR. PATRIC K cont'd) ..... old, with a plan that had over 3 mill ion employees, showed that only 4 percent, 4 percent of the people had any vesting if they took retirement before full ... when they took an earlier retirement before their full-time retirement. Well this is pretty difficult to comprehend, Mr . Speaker, if that was the case .

I think if there was ever a need for some pension re gulations and protection, I think there was because I feel that a person co uld have worked for 25 years with one employer or even longer, 30 years, and perhaps had very little or no vesting at all. So I say to the government and to the First Minister, it's something that we needed, and not only that but I asked for a pens ion legislation and disclosure during the last several years, and I know that the Minister of Labour has promised one during the last sessi on of the Es timates on Labour, and he's said so a couple of years ago as well.

Again I point out that out of ... I say only 3 percent that had any vesting in Canada that took an earlier retirement, only 3 percent according to the Dominion Bureau of Statistic s. So there sure is a lack of proper Legislation as far as the Canada - not the Canada, the private pensions are concern ed.

The other point is, I again say that it's only the right course of action that the Minister has taken to have this go to the committee because we would like to hear from some of the employers what effect it may have on the private pens ion plans that are pre sently in existence, and what changes will have to take place, and it may alter the whole cost of the pens ion plans if this would be put in immediately or retroac tively . So I say that it should go to committee so we would get more information and what effect it will have .

So again I welcome the plan and hope that we will get some of the answers to the questions that we have . I feel that the high proportion of employee s that are covered now under the plans and after a cert ain period of time - this is what the Minister indicated, that after 10 years tenure should be full ves ting. I think is what the legislation should call for and that's what it should be. So, Mr . Speaker, I am very brief; I mentioned I wasn' t quite ready to speak on it, I thought I'd go this afternoon. But I know that the bill, or part of the bill is going to committee and I welcome the legislation. MR.

SPEAKER: Is the Member for Fort Rouge going to speak on this as well ? MR. LLOYD AX WORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr . Speaker, I was standing it for the Member from Assi niboia. MR. SPEAKER : I see . Thank you . The Honourable Member for La Verendrye . MR. BOB BANMAN (La Verendry e): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. I ju st have a very few comments on the bill.

I notice that part of the section, as mentioned by the previous speaker, is going to committee and it's too bad that the Minister of Munic ipal Affairs hasn't taken the same approach with Bill 44, but I would like to say that I'm happy to see that by the introduction of this bill it will make pensions more portable.

I note that many people in the past when considering, maybe not happy at their particular Line of work and were consi dering moving to another field or another company, and because of the problems that they had in taking their pension along with them, they were possi bly forced to stay at that one particular occu pation or one particular company. I think that this portion of the Act is welcome to the people in my area because it will allow them to possibly make freer decisions when they dec ide that they're not happy at one place of work.

I also notice that it sets up minimum standards for pens ions, and I th ink that this is also an important aspect. When we look at the different plans that are be i ng offered today, there 's a certain amount of standardization I think that will be good for pensions in Manitoba and that I would just like to say that I do welcome the bill and will be suppor ting it. Thank you, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney . MR. McKELLAR: Mr . Speaker, I ju st have a co uple of questions I'd like to ask the sponsor of this bill because ...

And the one thing is when we were reading the annual reports this year of univer sities and the Teachers' Re tirement Fund, it was express ed by the auditor of these funds, the pension funds weren' t being funded properly in case suffic ient people asked for their pension at a given time. I just wondered will the Univers ity Pensi on Plan and the Teachers' Retirement Pensi on Plan come under this Act? Or are they ju st part of the Civil Service Pens ion Plan?

Now another thing I'm always curious about pensions because knowing a little about them, there 's inves tment - right at the present time the bond markets aren't very good and the in vestment market as a whole isn't very good, and it's very difficult to keep these pension plans

June 16, 1975 4041 BILL 57 (MR. McKELL AR cont'd) ..... funded to the point where they can be kept up to 100 percent of value . Now I ju st wonder ... the nine man commission that's going to be establi shed here to supervise this, if they decide that a particular pension plan is not being properly adminis tered and they in turn offer suggestions and the suggestions that they offer turn out to be wrong, who 's going to pay the penalty? Thi s is one of the things ...

I know you can't get nine men perfect men, in Manitoba that are all knowledgeable about pensions because of the investment market changing from time to time. It creates real problems for the private pension plans. I know you' ll try to get the be st nine men you can, because you'l l have to if you're going to make this operate properly. But if they give wrong advice - now there's a lot of people's money affect ed, and I just wondered can they be sued, can the government be sued or what is the score on that particular point ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister shall be closing debate . MR. SCHREYER: Mr .

Speake r, the Honourable Member for Souris- Killarney and the Member for As siniboia raised some points which I will try to touch upon at this stage in the proce ssing of this legislation. As the honourable member is aware, this is a relatively de tailed and complex matter, this matter of private pension plan fundi ng, and the means of so regulating and the operation of private pension plans, so that there is an actuarial adequacy about them.

And because that is the case, we feel that it really is necessary and prudent to have the subj ect matter of this legislation, and indeed the draft legislation itself, referred inter-ses sionally to a more comprehensive and detailed study and consideration by honourable members, with an opportunity to call forward persons in the, I suppo se, in both private and public domains to express views and opinions, and offer suggestions on the legislation.

In order to, however, not lose time in the interval, part one of this bill, if passed this session, will provide for the gearing-up of preparation in all required detail that is envisaged under the Act. The Member for Souris-K illarney asks whether the Univers ity or Teach ers' Pension Plans come under this Act. The answer is this Act will deal with all pension plans that by definition require funding. However, it is pensions that are in the public domain, some of them historically have been funded, some have not, some have been partially funde d.

Thi s legislation is not being prepared or drafted with a view in mind of necessarily summoning to it and unde r it those pension plans that exist in the public sector which do not require funding. That 's another rather interesting point to debate, sir . The university in any case, specifically University and Teacher Pension Plans are not contemplated to come under this Act. Also the Member for Souris-Killarney make s reference to a nine man commission, I believe that the provision is anywhere from five to nine and all things being equ al, would prefer to see the lesser rather than the larger number.

But that is something for working out, I suppose, in the light of ju st what repre sentative groups in the economy should be involved, etc. The Honourable Member for Ass iniboia was wondering whether thi s legislation provided for vesting after, what number of years ?

And that pr ecisely, sir, is one of the reasons why we propose the establishment of a commission with a Superintendent of Pensions, so that there can be variations provided in the first few years operation of this plan because it is realized and admitted that the impact of this legislation on different firms and groups of employees will be a rather complicated thing to sort out because introduction of legislation of this kind, the application of it, for the first few years can very lik ely cause some considerable problems, and that is why the commission must exist to use good ju dgment, being authorized in law to exercise that ju dgment to provide variations in order to accommodate thorny and troub le some partic ular circum stances to the provisions of this Act.

But after a period of five years with the time notice served in advance, after five years, then all firms operating must operate within the provisions of this Act. There 's a five-year interim period . Were it not for a five year interim period, I really must say that it is conceivable that many smaller firm s would have been put into bothersome, if not serious financial circumst ances . So this kind of flexi bility must be provided, otherwise we could never start the process of introducing legislation of this kind .

I might say also that this legislation is not re troactive in its effect and the qualifying date is approximately - we don't stipulate July 1, 1976 - I believe that that is roughly the target date, give or take a few months . So those are the three time factors to bear in mind, no

4042 June 16, 1975 BILL 57 (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) ... .. re troactivity, qualifying date some time mid-76, five years of interim period in which variations can be provided by the authority of the Pension Com mission. I'm not sure if I have left any other point uncovered my honourable friend has raised but in any case , he will have an opportunity, as suming that he is on the interses sional committee, to go into this in some depth.

Insofar as the part that we are passing at this ses sion, it has to do not with the details raised by my honourable friend but rather with the es tablishment of the Commission and the superintendency of pensions. QUESTION put MOTION carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. HON. SIDNEY GRE EN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Re sources and Environmental Manage ment) (lnkster): Mr . Speaker, I move, sec onded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Ch air and the House resolv e itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolv ed itself into a Co mmittee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Ch air. MR. GREE N: Just while we're waiting for Mr . McBryde, would honourable members be willing or prepared to deal with the items, Flood Control, Canada-Manitoba General De velop ment Agreement, in the separate committee this morning? The First Minister is ready to deal with those . Well, then, let us say in 15 minutes, in the Committee Room, that those items, plus if he gets through with those items, he can move up to Finance in Room 254, the Co mmittee Room.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIR S MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. JE NKINS): I would refer honourable members to Page 39 of their es timate book, Reso lution 92(a)(l). The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. RONALD McBRYDE (Minister of Northern Affairs) (The Pas) : Mr . Chairman, it's again a pleasure for me to bring forward the estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. The challenges faced in Northern Manitoba are considerable and attempting to come to grips with these challenges makes the work of this department not only demanding but very interes ting and exciting.

As members know, the Department of Northern Affairs being one of the newe st has grown quite considerably over the last number of years. The newness and rapid growth has, combined with the unique problems and opportunities in the North, caused us some difficulties and we have attempted in a sincere and effective way to deal with and overcome these difficulties. When the es timates of this department were being considered last fall by Cabinet, it was my hope to be able to hold the amounts and the staff needed by Northern Affairs at a le vel similar to last year .

This would give the department some breathing space and an opportunity to consolidate its operations and to ensure that management systems were made as efficient and as effective as possi ble . However, because of the tremendous need in Northern Manitoba and the strong demand on all level s of government for new and expanded de velopment, it was just not possible to avoid an expansion in some areas. Members will note that our 19 74-7 5 budget was $14, 76 7, 200 and that est imates for the current year are $17 , 334, 200.

You will also note that this increase is mostly in the areas that are affected by federal-provincial agreements. The biggest increase is in the Special ARDA program and the next is in the engineering and construction area as it relates to the Manitoba NORTHLAND S-DREE agree ment. There is some increase in the local government de velopment which also relates to the Manitoba NORTHLANDS Agreement. We of the Manitoba Government would again like to thank the Federal Government for its willingness to join with us in the de velopment of Northern Manitoba through the NORTHLANDS Agreement and the Special ARDA agreement.

The decentralization of DREE operation has allowed us to work productively with the Federal Government in developing and delivering wor thwhile developmental initiatives. Special thanks are due to the Winnipeg DREE staff, the prairie staff, and the Federal Minister, the Honourable Don Jamieson. The increase in expenditure s in the department also leads to an_ increase in staff from

June 16, 1975 4043 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ..... 383 to 448 . On this point I would like to thank the Leader of the Opposition for the one constructive thing he has done in relation to the north, and that is his criticism of the number of contract positions within the Department of Northern Affairs. This criticism has helped me to get my colleagues to agree that these positions were in fact regular positions and should be changed from contract positions to staff man-years. Forty five contract positions were converted to staff man-years.

The staff of the department, especially the newer native staff who are on contract, were concerned that they did not have the seniority of a Civil Service position. So even though the Leader of the Opposition may have done the right thing for the wrong reason, I would like to thank him for his assistance. This year, I would like the leader to demand that even more effort be made in the north to develop economic and employment opportunities and the government must be prepared to take some risks to bring this about.

I am happy to report that the thrust of the government in relocating the majority of Northern Affairs staff to Northern Manitoba has been successfully completed in its first stage. We hope to continue with further stages next year. You'll appreciate that such a task has not been easy, yet we have set an example which will prove of lasting benefit to development over the long haul. Hopefully other departments will follow suit. At this time, the local govern ment service

section of the department has one staff person in Winnipeg, 31 in Thompson, 17 at The Pas, 7 at Selkirk, 7 at Norway House, 4 at Dauphin, 2 at Leaf Rapids, and 17 scattered in the more remote communities. Engineering services has 42 staff all located in Thompson. Manpower corps has zero staff in Winnipeg, 14 in Thompson, 41 in The Pas, 7 in Norway House, 4 in Churchill, 5 in Leaf Rapids, and 12 in the smaller communities. I would like to say a few more words about Northern Affairs staff while I am on the sub ject.

The department officials who will be with me as we proceed with these esimates are my Deputy Minister, Mr. Nick Carter and our Director of Administration, Mr. Barry Bernhard. Both of these men have done an excellent job and I certainly appreciate their services. The department as a whole has a very excellent staff, and I think probably the best staff within the government service. For the most part, the staff in this department are people with a strong belief in the worthwhileness of what they are doing.

Their dedication is probably not so much to the government or the department but to the people they serve and the belief that what they are doing is extremely important and worthwhile. Because of this commitment, their work, their hours, and their efforts are above and beyond the call of duty.

Whether it's the winter roads people working around the clock during the season, the local government staff has late evening and weekend community meetings, the administration staff working overtime to keep accounts completely up-to-date, a pilot flying an emergency mission and his crucial back-up engineering and flight coordinating people, or a Manpower staff person dealing with a family crisis in the middle of the night, the vast majority in the department have done an excellent job.

Since the department is only as good as its people, I do not hesitate in taking some time of the Legislature to thank my staff for their excellent work. Of course, being northerners and being of independent spirit and a strong dedication to their work, they're very determined to get on with doing the job. Often they have little patience with the centralized bureaucracies of government and occasionally this impatience has led to conflict and criticism. While speaking of staff, I would like to mention that the department has lost the services of Mr. Phil Thompson. Mr.

Thompson was an Assistant Deputy Commissioner of Northern Affairs and then an Assistant Deputy Minister when the Commission was expanded to a full department. He was the one that had to help me learn my job when I first became Minister. Phil has moved up into the position of Director of Native Citizens Programs with the Depart ment of Secretary of State in Ottawa. Because this department is involved in placing Northern and native people in northern jobs, it is my feeling that we must set some example ourselves in the hiring and promotion of native northern residents.

Also because most of the work in the North relates to remote communities that consist mostly of people of Indian ancestry, it makes sense that our staff should bear some reflection of the people we serve. In my experience, a mixture of staff of professionally-trained people and people with experience of living in remote communities is very productive in that both groups learn from each other and the overall effort is more effective. In order to ensure the department provides opportunity for native people, I have

4044 June 16, 1975 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ..... est ablished a special advisory committee to myself made up of native employees to advise and recommend on policies for hiring, training, and promoting, for people within the Depar tment of Northern Affairs. The traditional approach of gover nment, although non-discriminatory, somehow did not attract and hold native people . New methods of advertising and recru i ting must be attempted. New training and career pa ths must be developed and management skill development initiated so that native people are not left out of government employment.

The Civil Service Commission and the person nel sec tion of Management Sec re tariat are involved in helping the department on this matter but there are still serious problems to be overcome . For example, there was a native person capable in winter road const ruc tion and management but when it came to the part of the applica tion forms that asked about universit y education, he didn't even bother to complete the application. In another case, there was an employment oppor tunity that many native people could fill but when advertised in the normal way, only one application was received.

However, when we advertised in the extension newsle tters and our staff encouraged people to apply by word of mouth, more than 30 applications were received. The other experience that we have had is with the Northern Manpower Corps which already has a large number of native people . When they advertise, they receive a large num ber of applications from capable native nor therners. So it would appear that when there are a number of native people working in a branch of gover nment, it becomes easier to attract other good applicants.

Hopefully, wi th the extra effort on our part we 'll be able to provide employ ment oppor tunities within the government for a significant number of native people . As I have mentioned, Mr. Ch airman, in previous speeches, there are in Northern Mani toba two fairly distinct norths. There is the urban nor th, The Pas, Thompson, Flin Flon, Lynn Lake, etc. and the remote nor th consist ing of about 45 communities with populations between 20 and 2, OOO people . From a political or a policy point of view, governments have a good idea of the neces sary programs for the urban areas.

Such things as improved highways and transportation, cost of consumer goods, telephones and TV, housing, mining safety, recreat ion, pollution control, labour laws, taxation, etc. are important concerns which gov ernment can develop programs and policies to deal with. However, when it comes to the remote communities and the native people, politicians of all parties and government of all stripes have more difficulty in providing meaningful and positive ways to assis t in the develop ment. What could and should be done is not quite as clear .

Governments have in the past made a lot of mistakes and funds have often been spent unproductively. The main focus of the Department of Northern Affairs is on the remote communities and the people living there . I would like to outline some of the ways in which we have attempted to assist the people in thes e communities in their development. One of our main thrusts has been in the area of local government development. This sec tion of Northern Affairs is headed up by Mr. Orville Strong.

In the pas t year we have made very significant progre ss towards strengthening self-government in the communities within the jurisdic tion of the Northern Affairs Act . This has been made pos sible by the pass age of the new Northern Affairs Act in the last ses sion and the consultation process that preceded the drafting of that Ac t. In the past year, much of the re sponsibility and authority and par ticularly the financial control that was previously with the department has been passed to the community councils and local committees.

In addition, the councils and committees have been allowed and are prac ticing procedures provided for in the new Act . This has happened in the areas of budgeting, financial statements, boundaries, by-laws, elec tion regulations, and in accountability of the councils to their el ectorate . The resu lt has been that most of the councils are meeting many of the re gulations and practices required of an incorpora ted community al though none have as ye t incorporated. This is in keeping with our belief that when the incor poration takes place, it should be a natural step rather than an abrupt change .

This progre ss by the councils nece ssitated massive support from the staff of the department. To facilitate this, in August las t year we brought together three branche s - Opera tions, Extension Services and Training Services, into the division of local government development. The staff of these three branches working together have provided the advice, information and training required by the councils and committee s. Many of the dollars that were previously administered by the staff of our Operations Branch, are now under the controls of the council .

For example, a resi dent of Cormorant who was recent ly elected to council, having been off

June 16, 1975 4045 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) .. ... council for two years, expressed astonishment at the amount of control now in the hands of councils. The councils make heavy demands on our co-ordinators for advice and support in carrying out these responsibilities. Those areas of authority which have not yet been passed on to councils have been decentralized to our four regional co-ordinators so that councils have regular and direct access to the people who make decisions concerning their communities.

Our Training Services Branch has been hard-pressed to meet the increasing training needs of councils in financial management, staff management, election procedures, and many other facets of self-government. In addition this branch has carried the major responsibility for the development of a community constable program and for the training council clerks. At the community level our Extension Services staff provides assistance both to the community and to other agencies of government in carrying out their services to the community.

Staff are resident in such communities as Berens River, Barrows, Brochet, Pine Dock and Easterville. Many of these staff are recruited from these communities, given training and support and continue working full-time in their home community or region. At the present time, much of their time is devoted to developing and strengthening the local government. They are often the unsung heroes behind the successful programs carried out by the com munity or by public and private agencies.

One example, the post cutting opera tion that is now providing employment in Easterville involved nearly a year of intensive work by our Exten sion Services staff although you will not see any reference to these staff in the news stories about that project. You may have read in the newspaper this past few weeks about the fire prevention services in Thompson conference, sponsored by the Northern Association of Community Councils.

You'll not have seen any reference to our Extension Services Branch although this seminar was one of the three regional seminars initiated by that branch with all of the back ground work, co-ordinated and funded by the Extension Services. Also there has been recent considerable publicity about the activities planned by the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood concern ing gas-sniffing problem at Shamattawa. This action has resulted from several months of intensive work by our Extension Services workers out of Gillam who cover Shamattawa, Mr.

Brian Henderson, who has been working closely with the Band Council and other agencies, including Medical Services people and the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood. The combined efforts of these three branches, I have mentioned, Operations, Extension Services and Training Services, have made it possible for us to hand over much of our authority and responsibilities to community councils and community committees. We are well aware that mistakes will be made and that some councils will not accept the need to establish adequate financial control systems until the year end audit uncovers the problem.

But these are necessary and justifiable risks on the road to local self-government. I am told th at these problems occurred quite frequently in southern communities not so many years ago. One

section of our Operations Branch is responsible for the maintenance and operation of some 30 airstrips and airports in Northern Manitoba. The rapidly expanding use of these airstrips, particularly by the private carriers, is exceeding our capacity to maintain the neces sary services, particularly the safety services required. In the current year we will be devot ing greater attention to facilities and services required for these airports and airstrips. An area of crucial importance in Northern Manitoba is manpower and economic develop ment.

This brings me to the Northern Manpower Corps which is under the direction of Mr. Murray Harvey. To understand the work of the Northern Manpower Corps you must. be prepared to achieve some appreciation for both the environment in which the corps operates and the magnitude of the task which it faces. There are no southern urban situations that are compar able except those which are, in fact, northern in origin and only minimal comparison can be made with rural Manitoba.

One conclusion can be drawn, however, and that is that northern unemployment problems become urban unemployment problems if regional solutions are not achieved. It is probably safe to say that the stay option means as much if not more to north erners than any other group in Canada. This does not necessarily mean that northerners are somehow personally unique in this respect but could only mean that isolation in both the geo graphical and social sense is a considerable barrier towards achieving those capabilities increasingly prevalent in other Canadians that mobility makes possible.

The complex question of mobility alone is a major obstacle to the reduction of unemploy ment in the north. But even if it were not, if by some magical process we could remove all of

4046 Ju ne 16, 1975 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ....• the obstacles to employment, be they social, cultural, racial or simply lack of technical skills, what would the task be then? Recent estimates of the labour force and job oppor tunities over the next five years indicate in 1975, this current year, there are not sufficient jobs in the region to provide employment to all the residents of remote nor th ern communities. Indeed the shortfall expressed cons ervatively - that's small "c" con servatively - is in the nature of 100 percent.

By 1980, this shortfall because of labour force growth and an anticipated reduction in re gional job oppor tunities will reac h an est imated 200 percent - again a cons ervative est imate. It co uld be much higher. During that five year period alone, it is est imated that 500 to 600 people will leave the labour force because of age, while 3, OOO to 4, OOO will enter for the same reason. At the same time the jobs in major industries alone are expected to drop from 11, OOO in 1975 to 8, OOO in 1980. That in a brief

summary form is both the magnitude of the corps' task and the environ ment in whic h it operates. Obviously we must pay more than lip se rvice to the so-called "nor thern problem" because it is not, shor t of a miracle, containable within the northern region. Simplistic solutions of job placement and training will not suffice and it is not, as can be seen, a territorial impulse that causes this department to take the goal of more northerners in northern jobs .

We need in the best intere sts of all of Mani t oba to ensure that was has been expressed by many to be a re gional problem is reduced to reason able proportions by affirmi tive action within the region. What this means is that all re source s of the reg ion, both public and private, need to se t upon a common co urse of action to utilize nor thern opportunit y for northern purpose, for the task is such that it is no longer a question of who should do it but rather of how we can do it together.

An example of the department working together with private industry is the Tawow project in which we work with Sherri tt Gordon Mines in the placement of people from remote communities for work at Leaf Rapids in the Ru ttan Mine. A somewhat similar program is under way with Inco at Thompson, and we are prese ntly in the disc ussion stage with the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company for a similar program in the community of Flin Flon.

Also, to this end, the department has, through the Nort hern Manpower C orps taken where nece ssary the re sponsibility of creat ing jobs roughly in the order of 267 and engaged directly in activitie s considered by some to be outside the role of government.

This thrust to pro vide a job in environment capable of supporting the nor therner in a produc tive situation is exampled by the following project s: The Pas Ready- to-Move Housing Plant operated by Northern Manpower Corps � 30 jobs ; the Cr anberry Port age Logging proje ct - 32 jobs; Minago Contractors Limited under the Natural Resources Act - 30 jobs when at full capacity; the Ch urc hill Prefab Plant - 175 jobs . For a total of 267 jobs . Admittedly, not all the jobs are at the moment occ upied by-northerners. About 200 of the 267 are but the goal is for at least 90 percent.

I would like to stre ss that these are not mere training ac tivities, although training is a valuable sub-object ive, but activities designed to stimulate both the inclusion of northerners in de veloping opportunities and the creation of a be tter eco nomic base .

That this job creation thrust is es sential can best be illustrated by the Cr anberry Por tage experience where graduates of the logger training went to work for the ManFor Complex, stayed on a time comparable to their southern collea gues, who are by nature a very mobile. group, then unlike these colleagues, re turned to their home communities rather than seek employment at other mills in other pro vince s. In more than a few instances , these same nor thern loggers called on the proj ec t manager at Cr anberry Por tage seeking fur ther employment with the Nort hern Manpower Corps. So, Mr .

Speaker, although the people have been trained to become efficient and produc tive loggers, when they went to work for the large company, their turnover rate is about the normal turnover rate in the logging indus try, which is very high, but instead of going out to other jobs, moving out from Manitoba, these people would re turn to their home communities and be unprod uc tive. Within the environment of the Cr anberry Por tage logging operation, they were able to take regular employment and continue to be productive loggers.

Our answer to this question has been to create an environment in which nor thern people can work productively at a skill for which they are trained rather than engage in a debate over what seems to be a moot point of who shall provide that environment while the logger sits in his home community. There are, of course, Mr . Ch airman, limits to job cre ation but these limits are many

June 16, 1975 4047 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) .. ... times needlessly bounded by the narrow application of the economic efficiency mod el. Which simply stated is that if it cost more than you get over a specified period, then why do it. We do not deny that there are substantial costs involved in job creation, a fact well recognized by many government funding agencies. There are, how ever, direct benefits that simply because they are foreign to the economic efficiency model are excluded.

This measure may suffice for private enterprise who have a tendency to be more concerned about complaining about their tax dollar than embarking on employment pro grams which might reduce the amount of taxes they pay. Governments, however, on whom all social responsibility seems to fall, can and should take direct measures to quantify in terms of their economic efficiency model, the benefits of employment and job creation pro grams and what the word subsidy in this case really means.

It has been calculated that a family head of four - and northern families are usually larger than this - on direct social assistance can receive as high as $480 per month with administrative costs excluded; and that the same person if employed at the average labourer's rate in the north, would pay approximately $1 , OOO in income tax annually. Reduced to a man day cost to government this works out to something like $18. 00 per dependent day. During the last fiscal year the Northern Manpower Corps created 5, OOO man-days of employme nt .

If we assume that only 50 percent of these people involved would have received some assistance, we can arrive at a direct saving to government of $475, OOO over and above the project rev enues where applicable. Expressed another way, it would pay the government to subsidize meaningful employment to an otherwise unemployed individual up to a maximum of $6, OOO per annum. There are, of course, Mr.

Chairman, other less tangible benefits to meaningful job creation, such as the reduction in crime rate and the reduction in incarceration costs, im proved family well-being, the restoration of human dignity and of course regional and local prosperity. These benefits, though no less desirable than those of a quantifiable nature, are those that can be best expressed I think, Mr. Chairman, by the following excerpts from a diary of the Northern Manpower councillor at the Churchill Prefab Housing Plant this last Christmas.

Quoting from his report: "The plant ceased operation for two weeks during the Christmas holidays. I, being the councillor, anticipated a very busy Christmas and New Year week. As it was, I could not have been more mistaken. No dealings with the RCMP or hospital and only one minor family misunderstanding. Compared with last year, there was a significant improvement in the behavior of plant employees. Last year there were many hospital trips with injuries caused by fights. The most rewarding aspect related to the chil dren . It was the first time at Christmas for many to receive gifts from their parents.

This was one of the many positive signs. Since these people have been given a chance of employ ment, a fair wage and some hope for the future, it has brought about family unity. " While job creation is a major thrust, the Corps has not ceased to attack the problem on a variety of fronts. It continues a direct job referral placement service and last year, work ing in conjunction with Canada Manpower, had at October 3lst placed some 1, 300 northerners in jobs.

Driver training, while it is taken for granted in the south and in the urban north, but a lack of which is a major employment obstacle to northerners, resulted in the granting of 40 driver licences to northern residents during the past fiscal year. Another point, Mr. Chairman Concern for the families of northerners undergoing either financial or social change has resulted in the mounting of a home visitor service in some 18 communities last year directed at the families of Corps project participants or of those northerners moving into new housing under the Remote Housing Program .

A general home adviser service is also provided where resources permit. Central to achieving some measure of mobility and rationalization of the employment and economic problems at the community level is the Community Manpower Planning process which is designed to allow communities to come to grips with the problems of expanding popu lation and an eroding resource base and to assist in meaningful and acceptable alternatives. That is, staff of the Corps have worked with the communities, developed and designed econ omic development projects at the local level. Another point .

Training projects either for basic skill development or work orienta tion continue to be mounted at the community level where this activity would lend itself to continuity of the development process.

4048 June 16, 1975 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AF FAIBS (MR. McBRYDE cont'

d) And finally, the Northern Manpower Corps has established an apprenticeship program by which work performed is now applied as credit for jo urneyman status. What used to happen in the past, that people would work in one place for awhile, then work in another place for awhile, then work somewhere else and did not work at one place long enough to acc umulate their journeyman' s papers. This new program allows them to obtain these papers and I be lieve to date 10 people have so qualified under this program.

All of these activities, which are designed to cope with a complex and by no means small regional problem are not without cost. That as I have mentioned earlier, we are dealing with the tip of the proverbial iceberg, and as you examine the cost of doing something as proposed on my departmental es timates I would suggest that you also consider the cost of doing nothing. The special ARDA program, Mr . Chairman, is another developmental instrument within the Department of Northern Affairs.

As with most of the proje cts mentioned, this program is a joint program with Canada and this one assists in the economic development and social adjustment of people who have little or no regular employment opportunities, es pecially indivi duals of Indian ancestry. There are in es sence under this special ARDA program two kinds of projects. One related to improving the capacity of people to earn better returns from primary production, such as fishing and trapping, and the other de signed to enable native people to establish a business or earn an income from commercial ventures.

Manitoba takes the main re sponsibility for the former, and the Department of Re gional Economic Expansion for the latter, although the province frequently arr anges for the associated training. This program started in 197 1. Curre ntly negotiations are in progre ss to extend it for a further two years. Since inception help has been provided to 893 fishermen in 43 different fishermen's groups, to 1, 257 trappers in 52 fishermen's groups. Tr aining by Manitoba has been given for 231 jobs in 26 different ventures.

The increase in the Budget can be explained by an acceleration in the knowledge and acceptability of the program. The item"Manitoba Supplementary Special ARDA" is provided to allow in some supporting aspects of the program to be provided where federal shareability is not available under the program. Examples of this are the Molson Lake Lodge and the Norway House Nursing Station are particularly notewor thy. We have outfitted groups with humane traps, provided transportation in remote areas, and helped to increase incomes. God's Lake Fishery was activated this winter.

Special ARDA contributed to the present Ilford thrust in fishing. In general Manitoba would expect 50 percent of the costs in the prim ary producer category to be met by Canada, but this portion is increased according to the number of Treaty Indians involved. Also included under Special Programs in the Es timates Book is the Northeast Develop ment Initiative. This can be seen as an experimental approach to the northeast part of Manitoba to get local people in the remote areas to identify and optimize the real oppor tunities for social and eco nomic development of this part of Manitoba.

It combine s a very deliberate and systematic proce ss of community cons ultation with technical expertise . Re source Inven tory, Feasibility Studies, Prioriz ing, etc. , and appeals to the combined knowledge of both private and governmental experience that exists within that area. These developmental thrusts are closely linked with the provision of neces sary infra structure. The infrastructu re that is much needed in Northern Manitoba, and the development of this infrastructure creates employment, training and business opportunities. The engineer ing and construction divisions under Mr .

John Reader is involved in winter roads, airstrips and airports, water services and major community infrastructure . On winter roads, Mr . Speaker, during the 1974-75 fiscal year the department constructed 854 miles of winter truck roads in Northern Manitoba, over which 44, 465 tons of goods were delivered to the following remote communities: Bloodvein, Little Grand Rapids, Berens River, Ste. Therese Point, Wasagamow, Garden Hill, Red Sucker Lake, Cross Lake, Oxford House, Go d's Lake Narrows, Norway House, Moose Lake, and South Indian Lake. And the cost for the program was $1 . 6 million.

A new roadway was developed between Cross Lake and Oxford House along a route where the conditions will permit the gradual improvement of this route to provide a prolonged hauling season. Work has also been performed along a similar route between God' s Lake Narrows and Garden Hill. This is a major change from the traditional winter road construction

June 16, 1975 4019 SUPPLY - NORT H ERN AFF AIRS (MR. McBRYDE con t'd) .. .. techniq•.ies that deve lop routes acr oss lakes and muskegs. The advantage of the ne w approach being taken is the exte!1sion of the hauling season thus red11cing the continuous incr ease to freight ra tes , or even lowering them. The eventual reduc tion of con struction costs for these road3 as they ne ed to build ice roads acro ss swamps and lakes will be re duced or removed �ompletely.

Also the reducti on of the unc ertainty of the completion of a winter road which is so dependent upon severe frost condit ions pre vailing prior to the heavy snow falls, as well as condi tion on low water table condit ion. Also fue roa dway may be used for the pur pose of harvesti ng timbe r and fish as well as for mineral explor ation.

During the past se ason the winter road program re ceiv ed much more favour able public comm ents than the previous year partly due to the improved public informatio'.l ser vices, the increased con fidence that the systems are well managed , and the realiz ation that the criticism raise d d".iring the pr evious sea son was poorly founded, and I might add, mer ely raised by some me dia for political reason s. The department emph asiz es the nee d to enable nort he rn reside nts to pr ofit financially from this program as well as receiv e a tra ining in all aspects of the trade and manage m ent.

For this re ason the work forces con sisted ·Jf a ve ry high perce nt of native nort herners who '.ire either operating as contracto rs at various leve ls, or super visors and foremen, as well as other trad·e and labouring occupation s in the cons truction of winter ro:id;> . This year we are making improvements to some of the ne w route locatio'.ls, as well as building a new roadway betw een Jenpeg and Cross Lake that is necessi tated dB to the fluctuation s in water flow and levels in the Cross Lake area as a result of the hydro develovnent at Jenpeg.

The roadways are expected to be develope d in the same commu nities that were serviced last year at an estimated cost of $1 . 8 million for the upcoming fiscal year. Another aspe ct of the Engineering Services Se ction of the department Mr . Chairma n, is the Airport and Airport Con struction program, During the 1974-7 5 fiscal year the departme nt spent $1 . 3 million performing con stru ction work on the north ern air strip development prog ram at the following locations - and I'll just remind the members again , Mr.

Chairman , that many of th ese programs are cost shareable under the Ma_11itoba Northla nd > Agree ment. The following location s: Brochet, Pu'.rntawagan , South Indian La ke, Moose Lake. Cross Lake, God's Lake Narrows, Garden Hill, Ste. Therese Poin t and Shamattawa . Cons truction forces employed :m these proje cts varied from re giste red cons truction companies, b:tnd cotnci ls, to two or three individuals from the re mote communities who formed part nerships to un dertake the work . In th ese cases th e contractors hire d a very high pe rcent age of local staff where they were available.

As a result of this progra m, together with the training provide d by the cont ractors and th e departmen t, many permanent jobs for the operation and mainte na!1ce of the airs trip facilities hav e been filled by th ese trainees . The Airport Development Progra m is supported by the Ministry of Transport and the Departme!1t of Regional Economic Expan sion , who re cognize it as a significant progra m for the improv eme nt of transpor tation and communications for remote communities . This program also provides the services in commm1ities to enhance the Patient Air Tran spor tation Program.

A ben eficial by-pr odT:�t of th e program is the dev elopment of a Class 3 air carrier service on wheeled aircr aft that has significantly re duced the cost of air travel in the re mote n':irth. This year we expect to spend about $ 2 million on the furth er development of this prog ram at the following location s: Brochet, So uth Indian La ke, Pukatawagan , Cr oss La ke, York Land ing, Red Sucker Lake, Little Grand Rapids, Bere ns Rive r, Garde n Hill and Shamattawa. A very important program unde r the Northlands Agr eeme nt that is admin iste red by this

section is the Wa':erworks Delivery Progr am. This is a new program for 1975 -76 fiscal year which is funded "rnd e:"· the Northla nds to the exten t of about $1 millio!1. With p•"·ese nt plans th e department Expects to spend ,1pproximately 8 50 , OOO of this fund to pro vide an all-year-round por table disinfected water supply syst em th is year to the following eommu 'lities : Cor morant - and th is system, Mr. Speaker, is a ve ry basic system.

The water serv ice will be of a basic serv ice only with one outlet to each area providing re asona ble all-year-round :tccessability, and hav ing sufficient capacity to be extended in th e future to provide a house de livery service. But at this time it is mer ely an outside tap system, or a pump system, which enables the people in the commu nity to get healthy water supply from a tap outlet. In Cormora nt th ere 'll be two such system s, at Sherida n and Cold Lake th ere'll be two syste ms. in Pikwitonei two systems, Thicket Portage o:ie system, and Ilford one sys tem.

Work on this pcoje ct has pro gresse d to th e geologica l and fiscal data gath ering stage, and detailed de sign work will

4050 June 16, 1975 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont d) ..... commence shortly. The department expects to complete the work this year and train local residents of the community in the constructio n and operations of the system so the community will have trained perso nnel to maintain the system after the initial running-in of the plant. The other item under Engineering Services is roads and bridges.

This program enables the department to co nstruct or recon struct external roads and bridges for the winter road system, as well as roadways and bridges, in areas where the service is not provided by the Department of Highways. This year the department will build bridge crossin gs along the winter road system and is making emergency repair s to the Homebrook bridge. We will re place this structure when alternate access can be provided by a means of a detour across the frozen river.

Roadways to be co nstructed will include the Fisherman Road at Long Point and other short roadways identified by the commw1ities and community planners for hous ing sub-division purposes. The Engineering Services also has a property ma nagementdivisionwithin it and provides the engineering services for major co nstructio n programs within the various communities.

The Planning and Policy Division of Northern Affairs provides necessa ry planning and res earch support, and is very directly involved in community sub-division planning, Northlands negotiation and delivery, economic development and a Waste Management Research Program.

Basically stated the planning and policy development division assists the Deputy Minister and other parts of the department to meet their respon sibilities by providing a centralized policy program evaluation, development and co-ordin ation capacity by co-ordi nating the Wester n Northlanda Agreement, by providing physical planning capabilities to departmen t and com munities, and by carrying out a variety of pilot proj ects. The major objective of the

section is to help communities become more ca pable of dealing with their probl ems. In the last year the division has set up on a pilot basis the Community Economic Development Service Mani gotagan to draw communities into plannin g their eco nomic future in collaboration with officials. Funds are made available to help them to do this. This service is to be extended m one more community this year to further test this method.

In addition the division has regio nalized most of its community planning services - Thompson last year and Dauphin this year - so they will be able to assist communities to more effectively deal with the community planning, the land, sub-divisio n and zo ning type problems. Further decentralization of the divisions ' functions are planned. Gover nment and com munities need information if they are to plan properl y, and a 30 volume set of social-e co nomic profiles of northern settlements has been prepared and distributed.

In addition a comprehensive community based mapping progra m was started, and is co ntinuing to assist local councils and government departments to make appropriate decisions. The division also is co ntinually seeking ways to streamline and hasten the speed with which gover nment plans can be developed, sub-divisio ns regist ered, and lots developed for the use in the new rural and native housi ng program and other housing programs.

To assist in co-ordin ating the division has pro vided a norther n input into the pla nning and developmen t of,a wide variety of gover nment progr ams, and including the Patien t Air Trans portation Program, transportation study, correction stu dies, local government, social develop ment, and reso urce d·3velopment. We are presen tly working with other agencies on a compre hensive social and eco nomic development strategy for all of Northern Manitoba. A substantial effort is under way to co-ordinate the implementation and planning for a lon g-term Manitoba Northlands Agreement with DREE.

A secon d year substantial programming under the Interim Northlands Agreement was negotiated. A good deal of attention is being paid to the mechanisms for increasin g the participation by norther n resi dents in planning for their future. And finally, this division has engaged in a substantial pilot project to find and evaluate the effectiveness of natural means of waste management, thereby to improve the health standards and to provide gover nment with a greater variety of means of meeting norther n needs in terms of waste disposal.

The Administration Branch of the Department of Northern Affairs has been involved in a number of things during the past year: No. 1 is the development of the departmental perso nnel policy that emphasiz es the employ ment and promotion of native northern people in the department. No. 2 has been emphasis on the training and development of existing staff to retrain

June 16 , 1975 1051 SUPPL Y - NORTHERN AFF AIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'di ..... additional staff requir eme!lts and to approve p:-:ogram manage ment and ddivery. No. 3 the initiatioci of act audit program to ·: msure that community council rec.:>rds are audited annually and 3.dequate finaneial statements are prepared and wailable, outlining the community financial affairs. By the end of August the c.:>mmunity council records will hav e been audited to date. statements and reports will have been prodllced. No. 4. The ini.tiatioci of selected internal depa rtmental aud'.ts to check the efficiency of progra m spending.

This was the case in the internal audit on the South Indian Lake Ca mp. No. 5, increased contact with community councils about tax collectiocis has resulted in improved tax payments. Last year 86 percent of the total taxes levied vvere collected. No. 6. Steps are being taken to help streamline the administrative procedllres a'ld c.:>sts of the department by

a) a communication study ,

b) an employee housing study ,

c) administrative systems and proced J.res improvement. Working closely with the Provincial Audi tor 's office we have acted llp'.m their suggestions and recommendatio!ls involving the Churchill Prefab Housing Plant, the Northern Affairs Trust Fund , the Departmental Accow1ting Operations, and the Co mmunity Council Financial Statements and Reports. My administrator has ar'lvised me that, however, that because of the Fr ontier not·thern environment there will continue to 1:Je administrative problems both internal and external to the department.

But with prud0ent management to identify prob lems, make improvements. and take remedial steps, there has been su ccess, and -vvill continue to be sllccess in improving the administration of local government affairs and northern remote government programs. Again, Mr . Chairman, the Coinmun.ity Council operations and the Ec.:>n·Jmic Develop:nent initiatives will involve a number of risks. There is an old saying that goes: "Behold the turtl e, he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.

" In this case, we will attempt to dJ o•J.r ve ry best to make sure that proper ad�ninistra tio!l and accounting is carried O'.lt by co'.l_1cils and by fledgling economic d·evelopment enterpris.es. We kno;.v there ·.vill be problems but we feel that we'l l have to take the risks in order to bring about development in Northern Manitoba. Fin:llly, Mr . Sp·:eaker , the Manitoba Goilernme!lt Air Divis io!l, or Air and Ra di.o Services, continaes to provide a senice to all government departments and Crown agencies , and ·:o rim the Patient Air Trans;Jorta tion Program.

Government Air owns 17 aircraft, and last year leas.ed for various periods and purposes up to 20 different aircra ft. This division :llso employs technicians in electronics who look after radio eq•J.ipment in aircra ft, air bases , fore stry towers, survey camps. field camps. vehicles. parks. etc. While introdu2ing my estimates, I would like to make a few more comments on PAT. When you say PA T up North, people know wh:lt you mean. Some terms like air ambulance and medi-vac , etc. are used :::mt they have the same meaning. PAT gets injured Dr sick people of the North to where the services are.

Air Division aircr aft give PAT p'·iorit y and ·Jften dllmp pas s: engers in ord· er to take sick or injured ;:ieople to the nearest hospHal. The Premier can remember the MU-2 leaving him at Flin Flon on one flight in order to carry out an emergency flight, and he h:ld to make other arrangements for the rest of his trip.

Ask any dJctor or nurse in the North about the service on a 24-hour, 7- riay ba sis, when a <i;overnment aircra ft comes for a patient und•3r difficult cond itions and poor wea':her , they will tell you �hat this program, started by this government a few short years ago, is second to none and '.ias saved many lives; ask the people in the North ho .v it feels to know that they have this capability in case they need it; ask the parents of several child ren fro;n Berens River; ask the wife of the mine;: injured at Thompson.

Ask t.h·e mothe;:- of the newborn '.Jaby at MooGe Lake : ask the girl friend .:>f a young man 'njured in a car accident at Leaf Rapids; ask the wife of an American tourist who had a heart attack at Go d's Narrows ; ask yourself, Mr . Ch airman, h-Jw you 'NOuld feel if you lived in the North :lnd 'mew that this service ..vas there. This govern ment started this progra m , which is be ing copied no.v by other governments , b;1t its success to a great exte!lt is because of the excellent pilots and dedicated staff of the Air Division.

This staff is well qu:l] ified and extremely profici ent but I'l l have to admit, Mr . Chairman, that on occasion, e' 1en they br eak the law. Not too long ag.J, a pilot too'< off with two pas se!lgers shown in his log book but landed with thr ee passengers, and llnreco;:-ded ;Jassengers are against

4052 June 16, 1975 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE co n t'd) .... the MOT regulations. It appears that Captain Leo Dumo ntelle from our base at The Pas dropped some passen gers at the Easterville airstrip and before he could take off again, Pam Potter of the local nursing station caught him and asked hlm to wait and take a woman in labour to The Pas hospital. This is a distance of 80 miles but only half hour flight by the Ce ssn a 337 push -pole gover nment aircraft. He took Mrs. Annabelle Captain and Mrs.

Sarah Alcrow, an elderly midwife, along and started for Grace Lake and was only off about five minutes when the mother started to deliver , and when he landed at the Grace Lake airstrip, he had 3. brand new baby boy, or three passen gers when his flight log showed he took off with two pass engers. The post-flight entry was made, Mr. Chairman, to show the third passen ger joi ned the flight en route at 9:40, so that the breaking of the law was not too serious in this instance.

The Manitoba Gover nment has had aircraft of its ow n since 19 32, but it 's only after we formed ';he gover nment that the Patient Air Transportation Progra m was introduced, along with the co-ord inated use of aircraft by the staff, in order to prevent duplication. You don't have to ask me. Mr . Chairman. about the PA T program, you can ask some of the honourable members across the floor, or ask the people in Norther n Manitoba, they all know what PAT does, and has done, and will co ntinue to do. The people of the North feel a little less isolated and a little more secure knowing that this service is available.

Mr. Chairman, that is not a true brief

summary of the department and its estimates. I am looking forward to answering questions from the members, giving more detailed explanations as the opportu nity presents itself. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 92(a){2) , Salaries and Wages. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker , I wo nder if the Minister could at this point - I assume that the staff will be with us - but I wond.er if he 's going to be in a position to give us a brea'-<down of the number of employees - he's given us an aggregate - a breakdown of the number of em ployees for each item, that is, each resolution, and in tur n would he still indicate the number on contract, and whether in terms of the global figures that he gave, whether they included people who are either salaried, or on contract for specific progra ms, either identified as a specific program under the Canada Manitoba Northland Agreement or special ARDA, or found in other expenditures where programs are being undertaken.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Norther n Affairs. MR. McBRYD E: First of all Mr. Chairman, I'l l give the Leader of the Oppositio n a

summary in terms of location, because I have that immediately before me. The executive has a total of 12 perso ns in it, and the majority are located in Wim1ipeg except for one at The Pas. The Planni ng and Policy Development

Section has 35 staff: 30 are located in Winnipeg. 3 in Thompson, and 2 in Dauphin. The Administration Branch has 43 people; 30 of these are in Winnipeg, and 13 are in Thompson. The Air Division has 13 2 positions: 47 in Winnipeg, 34 at Thompson, 15 at The Pas, 1 at Norway House, and 35 at Lac du Bo nnet. The Local Gover nment Development

Section has 86 staff; 1 in Winnipeg, 31 in Thompson, 17 at The Pas , 7 at Norway House, 7 at Selkirk, 4 at Dauphin, 2 in Leaf Rapids, and 17 scattered in the smaller remote communities. The Engineering Services , the construction has 42 staff, all of which are located at Thompso n. The Northern Manpower Corps has 83 staff; 14 in Thompso n, 41 in The Pas, 7 at Norway House, 4 in Churchill, 5 in Leaf Rapids, and 12 scattered in remote communities . Special Programs have 15 staff, all of whom are located in Winnipeg.

The total figure there is 448 staff, and I believe I have some detail on the co ntract - I have a very efficient administratio n person to give me that breal(down, and I can't find it. I'l l see if he can dig it out. The total staff-man-years, and some of those staff-man-years are permanent, and some are term. It's a re gular Civil Service status of a program that is not a forever program such as those under the Northlands Ag reement and the special ARDA agreement the staff in those programs are term. So the total is 448 , as I've mentioned.. The permanent staff-man-years are 292 .

The Northlands term positions are 154. The budgeted contract

June 16, 1975 4053 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFA IRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) .... positions are 2, and those are in the planning and policy section. Now there is Mr. Chairman, a category of employees within all departments termed casual, and like in the parks that work part-time, or highway s, people at certain times of the year are casual employees. I think the number of contract positions that are presently existing is 12 in the Northern Manpower Corp s.

There are 156 casual positions, and these come mainly within the local government development, and these are the people that look after the small airstrips and maintain the buildings at those airstrips, or operate the graders to clear the snow off and keep the airstrips in good condition. The total of not specifically budgeted employees, that's those two figures, 12 and 156, is 168. MR . SPIVA K: I wand.er if I und erstand correctly what the Minister is saying. And I wonder about making a comparison, if we can, to last year.

There are no contract employees other than tho se employees who we classify now as ca sual. It is my understanding that there were approximately 45 contract employees last year, they 've now been incorporated within the department. If that's not correct then I wonder if I could jus t have it accurately. And I wonder if we could make a comparison between how many employees there were last year, both per manent and '�ontract, and how many to the aggregate that we have now. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, the contract conversion that was agreed to by Cabinet and had to go through the whole management process is not 100 percent completed. So there's proba bly listed still on contract, and these would be some of tho se who have not completed their conversion from contract to staff-man-years, and some that are project staff. That is, they're attached to a certain project for a limited period ::if time, and there are twelve of those people all within the Northern Manpower Corp s. MR.

SPIV AK: So then in effect in terms of projects , whether listed under other expen ditur es or under any special project of Northlands, special ARDA, there are no other employees that are charged through as either casual or as pa rt-time or as permanent staff. The total figure of 448 is then the correct one. MR . McBRY DE: The total figure of 448 is the staff-man-years. Then to the 448 you still have to add tho se 12 contract positions I mentioned, plus the casual positions, which is 168, which comes to ... --(Interjec tion)-- MR. SPIVA K: All right, that makes it about 620 employees, part-time and ·�asu al.

Now how does that compare to last year, comparing apples to apples in total ? My unders tanding is that it would be about 345, is that correct ? MR. McBRY DE: I think the figure that the member mentioned was the staff-man- year po sitions. There was always a large number of ca sua ls, and I' m ju st going to check with last year 's bool\: and make sure we have the exact figure for last year. The 168 positions do not formally appear within the budget.

But there'l l be funds for our program, a fund for airport maintenance, a fund ��o maintain the airport building, and it'll not show up as a staff person, but tho se dollars will be used for people to d·J that work. The quick estimate we can get of last year was 535 . MR . SPIV AK: So that's 535 compared to about 620, which is an increase of about - that would ·Je about a 15 perc ent increase in terms of total. That's just an approximate figure. Can I ask, with respect to the procedures - unfortunately I guess we have to do this under salary and wages, because I d·Jn't kno w what contract we'd be talking about.

Can you tell me the procedures that were followed in the conversion between the contr act into the Civil Service position ? Are the proced llres automatic that the persons on contract fill the position offered by government with respect to the contract position that now became a permanent position? Was there in fact a normal Civil Service proc edllre followed ?

Did the normal Civil Service boarding take place, was there interviews that were undertaken; was there advertising for these positions ; or was it simply a conversion of the people who were on part-time contract, or full-time contract, bec oming employees ? MR. McBRY DE: Mr. Chair man, the Lead er of the Opposition might remember that last year I explained ·;o him that the contract positions were hired by advertisement, by a very similar process as the others were hired.

The Civil Service Commissio'1 is in the process of, or has agreed that th.ose persons on contract would be directly converted to staff-man-years. The only, I thin'..;:, area of disagreement is between the classification, whether we classified them at the right level on contract and the right range. I don 't think there's a disagreement on

405 4 June 16, 197 5 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont'd) ..... switchi n g them from contracts into staff-man-years. MR. SPIVAK: I wo nder if the Minister can indicate under Salary and Wages how many executive assistants are included in that figure? MR. McBRYDE: One executive assistant to the Minister, Mr. Chairman. MR. SPIVAK: That would be the political assistant that is charged to the administration in terms of Norther n Affairs, or are there other political assista nts? MR. McBRYD E: Mr. Chairman, the Minister has one assistant, and that'll be the only political assistant. MR.

SPIVAK: Some time ago there were questions faat were asked in the House and the Minister replied, and there was more recen t questions, dealing with the application for per mission, I guess, to acquire a licence to build something in Wabowden, this was the Callow application that was not dealt with and went to the Ombudsman. I believe the Minister indicated that a report had bee n given.

I wo nder if he can indicate who in his department was the perso n responsible, or has been suggested by the Ombudsman was the person res po nsible, who attempt ed to influence the Planning Committee with res pect to the licence application that had been made on which this complaint had been undertake n. MR . McBRYDE: Mr . Chairman, as the report of the Ombudsman is fairly complicated, and as a matter of fact to understand it myself I had to have technical planning staff in to ex plain it to me.

This Advisory Pbnn ing Commission at Wabowden was set up when the corn - mission was still attached to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, so they took a strictly souther n structure and plopped it onto Wabowden, and as a result of that I think there were a number of omissions made in terms of the full legal procedure as the Ombudsman perceives it. I have not had the opportunity as yet to discuss with the Ombudsman the contents of his report. As a matter of fact the meeting was sc heduled for today or tomorrow, if I'm not involved in the estimates procedure.

There was some concer n expressed by myself, and by people within our Planning and Policy Section, about the length of time being taken in terms of the procedure, and I think what the Ombudsman is worried about, and I'm worried about, is that, there to the questions at the time implied to some people that they were recommending one perso n over another in terms of that procedure, because at that time only one person was before the Plan ning Commission with a proposal. I don't know if I can add that much more.

The recommend ation of the Ombudsman is that the rezo ning, which is the initial thing required, be completed and that then the Planning Commission call for submission s by anyone wishi ng to develop in that rezoned area. According to the Ombudsman, digging back into old re cords, there wer e over the last number of years about four people had indicated an interest in that develop ment. Myself, and within my office, I had only been aware that one perso n had applied for that re zoning in that development. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Ho:i.ourable Leader of the Opposition. MR .

SPIVAK: I wo nder if the Minister can co nfirm that the Ombudsman in his report in dicated that someone from the Department of Northern Affairs attempted to indicate to the Planning Commission that the application of the individual who ultimately received the approval, should be given to him. I wonder if he can indicate the position of the individual, where he was a political executive assistant, whether he was within the Department of Northern Affairs, and what portio n and what branch of the department he was involved in. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, a program advisor with the Planning Section, Mr.

Monty Lowe, indicated to the Chairman of the Commission that they should hear an application, not that they should a.ccept it or not accept it but that they should hear a per son's submission for a proposal in that area. MR. SPIVAK: Can I ask whether that req uest to the Planning Commission came from the instructions of either the Minister or anyone within the executive branch of his department, the recommendation to the individual to request that of the Planning Commission? MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman this is the area that I'm not positive on because the conce rn was expressed by myself over the length of time that it was taking for the procedure, but at that time I was only aware that there was one applicant, and that could have come from my office or myself, the concern over the length of time that was being taken in the operation. MR . SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, then this begs the question of the Minister, how was he aware that there had bee n such a delay in procedures ? Who brought it to his attention to raise some anxiety about the timing ?

J u.ne 16, 1975 4055 SUPPL Y - NORTHERN AFFA IRS MR. McBRY DE: Mr. Chairman, I received .1 direct call from one of the applicants, whD told me his woes of time and procedure, and I inquired as to what was taking so long. MR . SPIV AK: Well, just so I understa nd the answer. I gu ess the applicant was the only one who you thought at the time had an application was the one ;vho called you then. He in turn raised eome question s, and as a result the person in the Planning and Policy Development, was asked to call the Planning Commission to determine what had happened. Is that the pro cedure that took place ? MR .

McBRYDE: I'm not clear on the exact procet�ure. I'm not sure whether the person made the call as a result of my concern over the slowness, or whether it was dire ctly related or not. I' m just not sure of that information. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Chairman, you know, we've got a very difficult question , and the Minister has admitted that there was concern expres sed to him by an applicant, and I d: m't think that 's an unusual thing for a Minister to be reminded by anybody that some problem exists in which the department may have, may have not an interest.

What I am concerned about is determining how that information was communicated to whoever acting on behalf of the de partment, communicated information.

The two issues are how that information was commu:1i cated from the Minister to the individual, how it went down the line; and the second thing is what the individual did to the Planning Co mmission in requesting that the matter be considered, whether it was just a matter that there was some delay, or whether it was more than just a question of saying it was delay, whether in fact there was any leaning on the commission with respect to an application by one individual, giving preference to that perso n JVer another. Now, that of course is part of the, I gu ess, the concern the Ombudsma n would have.

There are other matters I' m sure that will still come. But I'm concerned because of what would be a general impression, that the Minister may not want to accept, but I think it has been accepted by many people in the North, that there are certain people who have access to him and others who do nCJt. Dep ending upon their political affiliation, that becomes a very important factor as to whether you will or will not be able to be able to facilitate mat ters. So we're in an area which I'm sure he doesn 't want to deal with, and I'm sure is a particularly sensitive area.

But the concern at this point is, I would like to know how the information was commu_nicated from him to someone in '.>ne of the branches of his department, and how that person happened then to call the Planning Commission, in the words of the Minister, to faci litate the matter on the assu mption there was only one application, but in which I wou ld suggest there was, in a general sense, that there was a preference for one applicant over other s to be undertaken or considered by the Planning Commission. MR . McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I have no hesitation to deal with the ins inuations and allegations that the Leader of the Opposition continues to make on many subj ects, even those that have been shown to be completely untrue, and where he had misled the public in terms of tho se allegations. But in this particular case, all I can give the facts on is my own particula r knowledge of what took place. and the gentleman, the other person, one of the other people that was involved in this is no longer available to ask them exactly what too'< place.

Upon receipt of a call from a person who was hoping to develop a site in Wabowden, I myself at that time assumed - I found out from the Auditor 's report incorrectly, subsequent, even before the Aud.itor 's report from my own staff incorrectly - was the, I thought, was the only applicant for that piece of land, and he had been requesting resolution of whether he could proceed with developme!lt for, I believe. up to three years on that piece of land. And I inquired of my plan ners , I inquired of the co-ord inator for the area, who is also the Chairma n of the Planning Commission, as to what's going on here.

How come this takes so long ? And that is what I kno. v of what took place. As I said, my u.'l.d·9rstand:lng is that the person from the Planning and Poli.cy

Section who talked to the Chairman of the Planning Commission, I assume was in that same co!ltext as, what 's going on here ? How come this procedure is taking so long ? But I can 't answer beyond that. MR . SPIV AK: All right. We have now established that the Minister did then make the request to determine what was happening, and �hat went down the line to the Plan.'.ling and Policy Development, or someone within the branch, and �hat person - and I think he named him - called the chairman or someone on the Planning Commission.

I guess the issue then fundamentally is, what did that person say, and how was it really interpreted ? Was it interpreted to simply mean a request for information as to why the matter was d·9la yed, and ';o suggest that the matter be

4056 June 16, 1975 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFF AIRS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... hurried up, or was it really a request at that time for consider ation to be given to the applicant ? The Minister indicates that in his opinion there was only one person being considered, and the question is whether the people who actually called at that time knew that there were more than one application, or knew that there was more than one application being considered. And I think, Mr. Chairman, it comes back to a very fundamental situation.

The Minister, you know, makes the suggestion that many of the things we 've sug gested have not been proved. I think it's been exactly the opposite, Mr. Ch airman. I say to the Minister of Northern Affairs that I think that in general most of what we 've said in the past has in fact been borne out by the facts.

The fact is there was an application made to the Om budsman, and the Ombudsman intended to proceed, he had to go to court to be able to indicate that he had the autho rity to do that, the report is now in the hands of the Minister, and I have no dou bt will be part of the report of the Ombudsman next year .

But I say to him that I would think that, however, at least the impression I have and I'd have to be proved otherwise, either by the evidence of the Ombud sman's report or the portions of the report that would indicate the opposite, I would sugge st that there is at this point, to be disproved by the Minister rather than proved by the Opposition, because of the report and the information we've been able to compile, that there is a prima facie case, that in fact the person who applied, whose political affiliation was close to that of the Minister, was given additional help by the Minister, and in fact the Planning Co mmission of the community was leaned on, leaned on through the depar tment to in effect accomplish an objec tive for the individual to the detriment of another applicant.

I believe that this is the impression, and I think the facts have borne this out. You know, we're in a position where the Minister has given his answer, and there's nothing I can do except to say to the Minister that his answer, I hop e, is supported by the Om budsma n's report, and I would look forward to the publica tion of it or the tabling of the report in this committee to be able to indicate that there has been an independ,ent evaluation of the Minister 's action by the Ombud sman which would vind.icate him, and would not support the proposit ion that I've suggested, and many believe has occurced.

If that's the case, then I would hope that he'd produce the Ombu dsman's report.

If he 's not prepared to do that, I would think that we will have to wait for pub lication but I must, at this point, raise a caveat that the Minister 's explanation I do not think is complete, and I believe that the prima facie case of interference in the Planning Commission stand s, and that this is only one of many examples of concerns the people in the North have expressed. of preferences and efforts that have been undertaken in the North in which prior ity has been given to those people who have been close to the Minister per sonally, or close to the political party which forms the government, and :;h is has been one of the problems in the North.

You 'mow I listened with great interest to what he said with respect to the North and, you know, I'm not in disa greement with him. There are fundamental problems, and it's not easy. Any kind :if action you undertake you're going to find difficulties in implementation and really being able to measure achievement.

It 's not going to be something that is going to happen overnight, and to a large extent every government that is going to attempt anything is going to find difficu lty, and there are going to be immense failures, and there are going to have to be adjustments and alterations and amendments to any program.

But the difficulty has been I guess from the very beginning that part of what has happened has been developed on a patronage basis ; and part of what has happened has been developed on the creation of a network of p·eople whose political affiliations were part and parcel of the total employment underta ken by the department in the carrying out of its progra ms. Those political affiliations are important in the administration and carrying out of the government's progra m , and in the attempt to hold and :::ontinue support for the government.

It 's very hard to distinguish between the legitimate concerns of the people and the operation of the department, and the political realities and significances that are to be attached to the actions of the department, and I only cite this pa rticular example because I think it illustrates the basic problem in the confu sion that's ex isted in the main, and I thin'.-c to a large extent that has been allowed to be perp etuated by the Minister and by tho se who have associated - not all, I don't want to make a blanket statement - by many who have been involved whose concerns with respect to the government's po sition as opposed to the actual administration of the department activity has been such that they have fundamentally bent over backwards to become spokesmen for the government, to see that the programs are implemented, so that they will be credit for the government, and thus as a

June 16, 1975 40 57 SUPPLY - NORT HERN AFF AIRS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ..... resu lt of it, have in many respects probably over stepped the actions that should have been under taken. When you have a politicized Civil Service you have problems. When you have a politicized Civil Service you're going to have severe difficulty, and you're going to have those who will be supportive and those who will not.

I would sugge st that the program s and the earne stness with which the Minister would like to see some of those things acco mplished, that you know, it has to be off set by the reality that to a certain extent part of the undoing of what has happened has, in fact been the politicizing of the Civil Service in the north, and the actions that are under taken. This particular example is one, and one that is I think pretty important, because access to the Minister comes from those people who are friendly to him, and the way in which actions are undertaken and the follow through of this is pretty important.

I would suggest w1less he's pr epared to produce that Ombu dsman's report, which would prove the opposite, that the cas e that could '.Je put forward :is that in effect someone from the department leaned Jn the Planning Commission to be able to award a contract to someone who is friendly to the Minister, and ': his unfortunately is part of the quality and eharacteristics of the way in which it was operated in the north, the department, and '.1as serious ramifications for achi eving the kind of real obj ectives that the Minister talked about in the beginning. MR . McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I have to admit that I do get a little tired of dea ling with some of the allegations and accusa tions made by the Leader of the OppositiO'l. But I have to agree with him that in my opinion at one time the Commissio:i. :if Northern Affairs was used in a political manner, in a patronage manner. That existed, Mr. Ch airman, prior to 1969 . The same civil servant whom I heard :>aying, "D uff Roblin is doing this for you. " And then I heard him saying, "Walter Weir is doing this for you. " And I heard him saying, "Ed Sehr eyer's doing this for you. " And .it just was not acceptable to me, Mr.

Chairman , that that approach be taken. I don't want to go back into all the history of the member's approach, of the member 's strategy; I would just say that his

interpretation of my approach as Minister, since I' ve had responsibility for the Co mmission and :0or the Department of Northern Affa irs, is not as the Le ader of the Opposition has outlined it, and I suppo se I would term his approach, or his method of politic al maneuvering is to attempt to take a situation of which many southern people know not of the details, and where there are and 3.lways will be problems in administration.

When the Department of Indian Affair s be gan initiating more local government to band councils they experienced numerous problems, but neither of the oppo sition parties in Ottawa attempted to blame that onto the government of the day.

The Con3erva tive Party didn't ad:ipt that as a political strategy , the New Democra tic Party did n't ad:ipt that as a political strategy , the Social Credit Party didn't adJpt that as a ;:iolitical strategy , but the Leader of the Opposition has develop.ed l politic al strategy which be gan with attempts to say that there was vote buying within certain instances at Wabowden - that there was a "Wabo wden Affair ." I don't want to get into all the d·3tails of tho se charg es, etc. , etc. , but we now know that the Wabowden affair should be termed the Spivak affair , be cause that's basica lly what it was.

None of the allegations were subs tantiated ; the main source of the allegations has shown his me!ltal p:".'oblems in recent months and the Leader of the Opposition jumped :in that as a political strategy, as a method of his attempt to try and :'or m a government. I d:m 't agree with that type of strategy and I certainly didn' t get into public life to in·mlve myself in that type of a strategy and I can only give my symp:i.thy to the Honourable Lea d.er that he feels he has to use that type of strategy.

We've see!l the strategy ad·Jpted before in a case that the Omb'ldsman was involved in and a case where the Leader of the Oppositio'l joined in allegations of bribery by staff of the Depar tment of Northern Affai rs at South Indian Lake. Th:iae charges were shown to be com pletely unsu'Jstantiated. At that time the charges were shown to be completely unsul:?stantiated. The release of the Om b,.idsman Report, Mr.

Chairma n - it 's my u�1der standing that the Om budsma n works for the Legis lature, that is all the members of this House gathered together, and '19 does not work for the government - and if the Ombudsman wishes to release this rep'.lrt and he has it with.i.n his Act to release a report before his Annual Rep::irt then he's perfectly at liberty to do so. And as I said, I am meeting with him in the !lext couple :if days to d'.scuss with him the contents 0£ his report because many of the matters are, in terms of regulations

4058 June 16, 19 75 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE co nt'd) .... . and municipal proceedings, somewhat complex and I've had some difficulty in exactly understanding those details of a technical nature. I have no objection and if the Ombudsman sees fit to release this report then well and good and then maybe it will end .some of the hypothetical statements that have been made by the Lead·=r of the Opposition. I don't think I can make very many comments beyond that, Mr. Chairman. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Chairman, I made my point and I was sort of prepared to leave it, the Minister was not. I mean that's his privilege and prer ogative. I'm prepared to deal with this maybe in a bit more detail and I'm prepared to deal with the so-ca lled concer n that he has, the Wabowden affair, and that's not this particular matter , it's another matter, Mr. Chairman, is not something that has been sort of settled in such a way that I have egg on my face. And I want to tell the Minister that at this point the government by far has egg on its face.

It has an RCMP Report in which it's not do ne a thing and I have had to take the only prero gative of going to the Ombudsman ... --(Interj ectio n)- - That's not Wabowden? --(Interjection)-- That's on Schmidt Cartage, that's not Wabowden. Well what's Wabowden? Wabowden is R & M and J. M. K. is that what Wabowden is ? That RCMP Report is . . . --(Interj ection)- - Well it happens to be located .. . A MEMBER: That little road that leads nowhere. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, a little road that leads nowhere. But you know, Mr . Chairman, all it is is just typical of the way in which the government's oper ated.

You know it's a strange thing, ther e are two RCMP reports that have not bee n acted on yet, matters that have been before this gover nment for about a year and a half. You know, the universi ty stud Jnts were picketing and were involved in some hassle on the picket li ne in Fort Ga rry;' within a matter of 12 hour s, 6 hours, 4 hour s, they were charged. You know they had viola ted the law. Whether it was correct that they should have been charged :>r not, whether it was morally right, the fact is that's what the law said, there was no question, there was action immediately.

But in a little situation in Wabowden, the town that leads nowhere, the government for some re ason just can't act, can't ask the RCMP to investigate. When it's forced to investigate it can't deal with the report, it's always co ntinually asking for information. My God if the administration of justice took as long as has happened in these particular situations, nothing would happen. Does anyone not believe that there 's some political overtones to this ?

Now, does anyone really accept all of a sudden s9meon e phones the Minister, the Minister se nds it down the line, somebody down the line pho nes the planning commissio n and says, "Hurry up with that application". Does anyone not believe that the perso n who called the Minister had to be someone who was affiliated with the NDP, that could ess entially ask the Minister for that information and ensure that his request would be given?

The individual who had applied who by the way, as it happe ned, happened ·;o have an undertaking being financed through the CDF by one of the companies involved .in the RCMP investigation. That's another side issue, because it sort :>f makes it rather curious , because on one hand the gover nment does one thing and then loses money on the other hand and they don't know what's re ally happened. In all this proced. ire does anyone suggest that there wasn't any action at this point on the part of the Minister or his people with respect to this matter, that it did not have any political overton es ?

You know, I don't know at this point what the final report of the OmbudGman would suggest, but I would suggest that there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the Minister 's leaned on someone to lean on someone to getit done for someone that he wanted to happen, and that that meant that the rights of other people were in fact negated. Now, you know, we're going to go over and over and over again these things, and if the Minister wants to suggest that this tact on our

part is incorrect, then he's failing to recogn ize what a lot of people in the north are saying - and a lot of people in every walk of life in the north who have had contact - because you see there are ones who are in and ones who are out, and that's the problem with the politicizing of what has taken place up north. And ther e's no better example than this.

And these case s that come forward have to be dealt with either because ther e is wrongdoing - in which case the Attorney-Ge neral's office is involved, and you 'mow what that's going to mean as far as timing is co ncerned, if it has political implic,ations - or to look to somebody independent to be able to do an evaluation and a judgment of it. That's exactly what the Ombudsman has done and he 's the only person that we have that can get inside the department and be able to determine whether what has happened has been proper or not. And I suggest that the Minister may want to stand

June 16, 1975 4059 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFF AIRS (MR . SPIVAK cont'd) ... . up and basica lly say that nothing has happened that nothing has improved. Well, the Wabowden matter is not closed. and ·even tho'.lgh the government has attempted ·:o put road 'Jlocks in every legitimate way that they could ';o stop the kind of discus sion and information coming forward, it is goi.ng to come forward. It's very simple for me, Mr. Ch airman, and I dJ not want to prejud ice the cases that I think will ultimately come forward , to lay o:it th::i se cases -right out, complete - I'm quite capable of dJing it.

I'm quite capable of putting it on the table of this House witho•.it any dH ficulty, of naming names a'l.d Jf cit ing dates and of giving specifics and of indicating who likely action should :Je undertaken. And I think some of the things that I would say would be surprising. But I believe that proof exists - or sufficient at least evidence exists for consi.deration to !:le given by a court o� law. I do not particularly want to prej irdice that situatio'l and l have take n the only alternatives that I have as that of going to the Ombudsman.

But I say to the Minister here . it's true, the Ombud sman's report is a report to the Legisl ature. If he 's going to release that information then we'l l have to wait until his report comes in, I can't deal with it. But I do not want him to suggest that, based -Jn my u:1derst anding, that he can simply p:tss it off, has simply been a matter in which there was really no attempt to lean on the pla:ming com mission in this particular situation, because that' s not so. There was an attempt to lean on the planning commission to the detriment of other ind:ividuals. MR.

CHAIRMA N : The Honourable Minister of Northern Affair s. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition has alread:1 made the decisions that normally would follow with :he Ombud sman Jr the court or a number of people. Since he 's already made up his mind there's probably not much use speaking with him. But as a Minister of the Crown, and I assume that it happen s to other Ministers, that we get calls from many sources and from inany places.

I get qnestions from the Member for Roblin or from the Member for Swan River about such and such and such and such, and I'l l give staff a call or send them a note and say, "What is the situation in regard to such and :such ?" Now there is always that possibility since the Minister is asking his staff what is happening here, that the staff per son could interpret that as the Minister wants that to happ en, if I say, how come that the Member for Roblin wrote to me, why did.a't such and such get a lot in Camper ville ? A MEMBER : Right. MR.

McBRYDE: So I enquire, "why did 11t such and such get a lot in Camperville ?" My staff could pick that up and say, well, gee the Minister wants such and such to get a lot in Camperville. we be tter get him a lot. You know, that can happen. I assume that some times staff will interpret things that way. I madce an enquiry of staff just the other d.3.y about the Community Council budget at Pelican Rapid;>, because I was in Pelican Rap ids, and I fonnd out the other day that the staff interpreted my request for information as a way for him to proceed in terms of that budget.

So I had to explain to them that that 's still the council 's decision and your decision and I was only getting information that the community asked for , and that that doesn 't mean you d·) it this way or that way, but you have to make that decision on site. You knO'N it could �1appen that staff d·)es think because the Minister enqui res, or somebody in the Minister 's office enquires about something, th at's what the Minister would like to see happen. That would 'n an

interpretation that they are at liberty to take or n::it to take and I would �lope that they would interpret these as enqui ries, not as insistence that ce rtain courses of action be done. MR. CHAIRMAN : (Re solution 92 was read and passed) Resolution 93, Air and Rad.lo Services. Administration (a)(l) . The Honourable Member for Birtle-Ru.'Ssell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russ ell): Mr. Chairman, I'd Like to ask the Minist er on the Patient Air Transportation ju.st what perc entage of the emergency air ambnlance service is carried ·)Ut by government forces ? MR.

CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. McBRYDE: The patient air transportation system operates in the following way, that the doctor or the hospital in an area makes a direct request that goes through an air division co-or dinator that's responsible for flights, or in a remote community a nurse, or in some cases where the re's not even a nurse, from somebody in author ity in the commw1ity that can authorize such a flight to take place. That co -ordinator will then attempt to see who 's the closest available. That is, if it's in The Pas, for example, and there 's a Transair flight

4060 June 16, 197 5 SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS (MR. McBRYDE cont' d) ..... leaving in a short while, they' ll put the person on the Trans air flight. If it's at Shamattawa and it happens that II.ford River can just land it at Shamattawa, then they' ll try and get II.ford River to do the work. Now in most cases because of the MU-2 aircraft, one of the quickest ways in emergencies is to send that plane from Winnipeg because of its speed and get them right back into the Winni peg hospital as quickly as possible.

This program is also dealing with some that could not be termed emergencies, cases that are not determined as emergencies, and those usually go the normal commercial carrier flights that take place. MR. GR AHAM: I thank the Minister for his explanation, but he didn't give me the answer. I asked him what percentage was carried by the government air service and what percentage was carried by other services. MR. McBRYDE: Approximately 25 percent of the flights were carried out by air division and the majority of flights would have been carried out mostly by scheduled carriers arriving in the community.

I'd say of that 25 percent, my guess is, from my knowledge of what I' ve seen is that the air division would handle most of those. When something happens in the mid dle of the night at Berens River, it would be the air division. MR. GR AHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Minister for that rough es timate and he mentioned that if it was a night flight it would probably be government services rather than other services. Is that correct? MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chair man, I think one thing that the honourable member maybe is not fully aware of, and it was even a bit of a surprise for me as I saw the figures coming in, is that a large portion of the PAT flights are not emergency flights. They are flights where they cannot get a medical service up north and they have to come to Winnipeg for that service, but there' s not an emergency attached to it. And I would guess that Transair is probably the biggest percen tage on the regular scheduled flights.

See, what happens is, when a real emergency comes forward it goes to an air division co-or dinator of the PAT program and they attempt to track down who' s available first. Now it happens that there is not flights going in and out of these communities at night, because most of them don't have lights on them. So in that case there wouldn' t be another carrier handy and the air division would more than likely be the one to take the case because we have the fastest, most capable airplane of doing that, and then flare pots would be put out or car lights or whatever to facilitate that plane getting in and out. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Rus sell. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chair man, I thank the Minister for that information and that re assurance, because the information that I have received, so mewhat sketchy as it may be, has indicated that probably the reverse is true; that when it comes to emergency night flights that it is usually the private carrier that is called to go in rather than Governm ent Air Service, the Governm ent Air Service does most of it from 8:00 a. m. till 8:00 p. m. and it's the private carrier that does it in the middle of the night. MR.

McBRYDE: The service provided is a 24-h our day service and there' s no time it's not covered. Now our pilots who are on duty at that time, there is an answering service and a bleeper system. They carry this with them to their bedside and they' re available imme diately to get down there and of course they' re not allowed - if they' re on duty, waiting, having a possibility of a call, of course then their social life is inhibited because they' re not allowed to drink or anything like that because they' re on call at all times.

But if even at night time, if for example, an accident took place at Brochet, Air Division has no planes at Lynn Lake so it might be that we would try and track down the local carrier at Lynn Lake and get him to do that flight. But the majority of those kinds of flights are handled by Air Division and unless you get really close to one of the other centres like The Pas or Thompson, the majority are handled by the MU-2 from Winnipeg. MR.

GR AHAM: I was wondering then, in order just to sort of clarify the issue, and I hesitate to file an Order for Return, I was wondering if the Minister could give us a break down, not at this particular time but at some time in the future, of the number of - and this is emergency rather than the other - the number of emergency flights made by Governm ent Services during the 8:00 a. m. to 8:00 p. m. period, the number that are made by other services other than Governm ent Services, and then also the same for the night period.

I think it would be interesti ng to see ju st what is oc curring in that particular field.

June 16, 19 75 4061 SUPPLY - NORTH ERN AFFAIRS MR. McBRYDE: I shouldn' t have too much trouble, Mr. Chairman, because I've asked for that si milar infor mation because I heard a rumour out of Tho mpson, so mebody was saying up there that the Air Division was gettin g som ebody else on the bad flights and night flights and stu ff, and not using their own forces and I've asked for that information from the Air Division. I haven' t got it back yet. I don' t suspect the re's any gr ounds to that remar k. MR. GRAHAM: Probably the Minister has heard the same rumour that I have heard then. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 93 (a) (l). The Hon ourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chair man, to the Minister. I have before me a notice from the Air Transport Comm ittee that they've received an application from Sky West Limited to carry on a business under the fir m name and style of Sky West.

The Minister is familiar with the pro posal in respect to Sky West-and my question to him now is: Has he or any official of the Manitoba Govern ment Air Services been involved in the submission of this application and con sulted .or in any way involved in the prepar ation of the application to con duct this service which has now been filed with the Air Transport Committee? MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chair man, that application under the name of Sky West would have been handled entirely by officials and advisers to the Department of Industry and Com mer ce.

So I don' t thin k I can tell him anyth ing more on that application. MR . McGILL: Mr. Chairman , I take from the Minister 's reply that the answer is neg ative, that none of his officials in Manitoba Governm ent Air Service have had anythin g to do w ith the filing of this application or have been consulted in any way with it. And I' d like to ask the Minister if, at the present time or at any time within the past few weeks, has Manitoba Government Air Service been involved in trainin g pilots for flying Saunders Aircraft for the operation of this service ? MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chair man, I thin k the Member for Brandon , I don' t think delib erately, sort of went beyond my answer. The Manitoba Government Air Division or my depart ment was not involved

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-2-131
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 2nd hansardpdf 131.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	48f60d8d330d6874442265018be3dc3d595575ec

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