LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 Time - 8:00 p.m. MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): PROCEEDINGS NOT RECORDED MR. MacMASTER: . . . directly affiliated with the legislation and 12 committees responsible for various parts of the Ma ni toba Buildin g Code, each responsible for the Building Standards Board. The criteria for safety inspection of equipment in buildings is contained in an National Code made up by comm ittees that include representatives from each province , ind ustry, manufacturers, users, etc.

These codes are printed and distrib uted by the Canadian Standards Association, the Canadian Gas Associa tion, Unde rwriters Laboratories of Canada, American Society of Mechanical Engi neers, American National Standards Institute, National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessels Inspectors, National Research Council, and others. Staffing - last year there was 54.31 staff years allocated to the branch. We are requesting 55.3 1 staff man years this year, an increase of one.

The purpose of the additional staff man year is to provide courses and seminars throughout the province to groups of building inspectors and municipal officials, to gi ve them expertise in the inspection of buildings constructed in their areas in conformance with the Manitoba Building Code. MR.

FOX: I' m goin g to ask, first of all to the Chairman, to suggest that those members who wish to pass, would pass out of this room so the Minis ter and those of us wh o are interested in the department, can do our work because if we're going to get that kind of interjection, it's just an annoyance and a nuisance and it certainly isn't conducive to getting the work done, of this department. I'm sure the Chairman would lik e to keep order and he doesn't need that kind of interruption and neither do I, and I'm certain the Minis ter doesn't either.

We are just starting. it's only 3 min utes after the hour and I'm certain that the members who haven't been here have no need to interject that way. So, Mr. Chairman, I would request of you to at least direct the Committee that we want to work. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I have ab solutely as much righ t to sit in this Committee as the Member for Kildonan. If he wants me to leave, I wi ll leave. I apolog ize to the Committee. it's not a parliamentary system and it's uncalled for, those kind of remarks. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR.

FOX: I think my remark s, Mr. Chairman, were in order. We had just started and hadn't even got into this department; the Min ister had made his opening remarks and my remarks were properly in order. I have no obje ction to any other mem ber participating in the debate of this department but I certainly don't need a "pass" continually when they haven't even heard what the department is all about, and that's what occurred this even ing.

Let me get started by saying that I appreciate the Min ister's remarks and I would like to ask him, in view of the fact that he said we have a number of comm ittees that are interprovincial, and so on, wh ether the rec ipro ci ty wh ich we dis cus sed previously in respect to the di fferent tick et requi rements in the refrigeration field, in the steam engineering field, also electrical and so on, if there is a co mple te reci proc ity or are there still some anomalies? MR. MacMASTER: There's still some trades, sadly enough, that aren't accepted across the country.

If the Member for Kild onan will bear with me I'll produce a list that are accepted right across the country. I'll produce Manitoba's lists of people who, for some reason or other, aren't accepted. I'l l get that list within the next five or ten minutes if the member wishes to carry on. Just a comment in passing, taking sides with nobody on the actions of anybody at the Committee, I am not adverse to some humour being put into the Committee if it's taken as humour.

I am considered by many to have lost my humour some place in the damn past, I don't know where it is and maybe I'm too bloody serious about an awful lot of things, but I don't mind a little bit of humour if it's taken in good light and if we can keep it at that tone, I'm quite satisfied with that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: There's nothing the Chairman would like to see more than to have the Es timates processed in the pro per order as spe edily as possible, with no reflection. MR. MacMASTER: I'll get that list. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Kildonan. MR.

FOX: Then let me get into some of the questions that I have. I would like to know from the Min ister, I know that we have it on record how many tickets were issued in the va rious categories in his Labour Depa rtment report but wh at I would specifically like to know in the categories of the various refrigeration certificates, can the Min ister indi cate how many were not renewed and how many were new ones, because that would giv e us an idea of the kind of attrition that's taking place and whe ther we're standing still or wh ether we're progressing.

The other area I would like to ask the Min ister, I understand there was a cours e at Red River for Fourths and Thirds and there was also, for a period of time, a course in respect to Seconds. When will that Second-class course be conduc ted again, or does the Min ister feel we have sufficient certificates in the Second-class area? MR. MacMAS TER: Mr. Cha irm an, to gi ve the Member for Ki ldonan the facts as I have them: In September of '80 there was 38 people enrolled in 1085

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 Power Engineering courses in the Fourth Class that was completed in - I'll take my time with this because I know he is very int erested in it. In Fourth Class, September '80 began, completed January '81, 38; commenced for Third Class, commenced January '81, 33; that's for the Third Class, there was 33 in a class; now, Second Class, the one that he's inter ested in and so am I very keenly, there were 17 comme nced in the last, and I'm guessing, two to three weeks, but early in the month of February. MR.

FOX: Could the Min ister ind icate whether there are any plants at the present time operating under exem ptions from hav ing the pr oper qualified certificate? MR. MacMASTER: Simplot is still operating with an exemption; Hooker was last year, the exemption has been li fted from Ho oker Ch emicals. Poetic, or whatever you wish to call it, Simplot received a very significant national safety award recently which has nothing to do, I know, but Simplot in fact is the one that is operating with an exemption now. MR. FOX: Can the Min iste r ind icate when he expects to lift the exemption on Simplot? MR.

MacMASTER: I'll try to answer several questions. I am a little tired of saying, I hope that Simplot will have a first-class person. I have asked the Department to get the number of engin eers that are in place in that entire plant. I know it won't totally satisfy the Member for Kildonan. We have talked about this before, but I think for our own sakes we should look at the number of engi neers that are in that plant, so that he, by conscience, may feel a little better about what's in that plant.

I do not have a posit ive date when they will have a person in place, and as I say, I am as tired as he is of asking the question and me answering it; they still haven 't. We said, and I'm guessing, a year ago that we hoped Hooker and Simplot would both have the exemption lifted. The exemption is now lifted from Hooker but it is not from Simplot.

In answer to the refrigeration class, in 19 79, there was 11 8, and in 19 80 there was 111 , so there was a decrease of 7, which is the precise question the member asked, but in addition to that, going back two or three years, the numb ers that are going through the course have decreased but there has been 30 in 19 78, 10 in 19 79, and there was 3 in 19 80. In the last three years there has been 33 come on. If we are still, and I'm just guessing, trying to put these figures together, if we are still seven short, then I suppose in the last three years 40 must have gone out.

I think that's the type of question that the member was asking and wanted the answers. The best figures that I can give him is there have been 40 go out and the last three years; there's been 33 come in with a reduction from last year of 7 in that category. I think that's all the questions that he asked unless he can refresh my memory, there might be another one. MR. FOX: I was asking in respect to second class, and what I omitted was to mention the first-class tickets, because some of the operators will be fi rst class ticke ted men as well.

I understood the Mini ster was going to provide me with a page of all the tickets so that we would know because attrition is taking place at third class level as well, and then of course some are moving up from third to second. If I could get a breakdown of the four diff erent classes that would give me a picture of whether we are im proving or decreasing and the number of qualified people that we have in the province.

In respect to Simplot, I know we have gone over this a number of times and I concur with the Mi nister that it gets repetitive and also gets annoying and boring, but nevertheless the question remains, that Ho oker was able to get it self away from the exemption and I think that possibly Simplot even though they should be commended for having a safety record, nevertheless are operating with what we call an unqualified certificate and I think as long as the exemption is going to be there Simplot is not going to make a real effort to hire the qualified personnel.

And so I would suggest to the Minis ter that you know, you look at this situation and they have been brought into court and fined for not operating with a qualified personnel. I think maybe he may have to get tough with them again and then they'll enforce the letter of the law as they should. They are working at an advantage which other plants in that area don't have and it just means that they can operate at lesser cost in that one particular instance. So it should be looked at and the Min ister should get a little more severe with them.

Now he may not appreciate what I'm suggesting, but I do believe that that would be one avenue that he could take. I'd further like to discuss with the Min ister whether, and I touched on it during the Workpla ce Safety Health Act

section of his department's estimates, whether there is any effort being made to determine safe procedures in respect to a flooded ammonia systems. I indicated last year that many of the firms were going in for that kind of a system.

It operates more efficiently, but I also believe it's a little greater hazard because of the fact that you have liquid ammonia in the whole system ins tead of just gases in part of it and liquid up to the evaporators; and whether his department is doing anything to suggest procedures in respect to safety and whether there has been any directives to safety comm ittees or to plant superintendents in respect to having some kind of safety equipment for those areas that have large flooded plants.

I know that we had an instance, and I mentioned that last year, where a company had a break in their lin e and they had to wait thr ee hours before a wetsuit could be found for someone to get into that particular area. Now I think that any large plant that has this kind of a system should either have one of its own or, in liason with the Fire Department next door, wherever they happen to be, that the Fire Department should have it.

Now the Fire Department was one that produced the wetsuit the last time around but I'm not aware that there are very many outfits that have their own, or that the Fire Department has made a greater effort to have this kind of equipment. I'm just wondering whether the mechanical division is looking at this problem and seeing how it can be rectified. MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr. Chairman, last year we discussed this particular point. I've had our M and E 1086

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 people constantly checking. They don't feel, and here I guess we differ, but the advice they give me is that they do not feel there is a need for an established new system; they have not in fact located any problems; they have been instructed and if in fact they do, that they report directly up to the deputy who, in turn, can in volve the Workplace Safety Depa rtment in re viewing the in cidents or the problems in trying to establish a new procedure, maybe once and for all to try and put this to rest because the Member for Kildonan, I assure you, Mr. Chair man, rais ed it last year.

I assure you our people have looked at it during the course of the preceding months. We have not found fault with what has taken place. Consequently we haven't implemented new systems or a new procedure, as the Mem ber for Kildonan I have to suspect very conscientiously thinks there should be a new procedure in place.

I think maybe at this point what we should do is have the Member for Kildonan, if he would be kind enough to document to me some of the problems that he feels precisely exist and I assure him I'll have my M and E people look at it and we'll correspond directly with him if he wishes, I am prepared to set up a meeting and let him sit down with some of my people. it's maybe past the point of questioning each other and both of us having a sincere feeling for it, and we're not getting anywhere.

I again reiterate, it was rais ed last year, we've looked at it, my people advise me there's nothing really wrong with that system. If the member has some specifics, if he'd like to have a meeting with some of my staff, I am ver y ver y willing to do that. On the numbers that he requested of the power engineers, first-class licences issued for 1980 was 17 8 - I'll wait until he gets his . . . MR. FOX: That's okay, I'll pick it up in Hansard. MR. MacMASTER: Okay. First-class, 17 8; second­ class, 394; third-class, 588; fourth-class, 946; fifth­ class, 1 ,648.

I ga ve him the num bers in the refrigeration class in 1980, is 111 . MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I agree that it's a safe system but there are always acciden ts. I know that in any working area people will bump into things and snap off a pipe here and there and this is what occurred in the Swift Plant.

Now as I ind icated, this system, why it creates a greater hazard than the previous system that has been in use, is because there's a lot more liquid spills out immedia tely into the break area and it is difficult to get into the area to shut off the valves; and also there should be in my opinion, shut-off valves imme diately outside of a room, because in most areas where refrigeration is us ed, they are genera lly sealed quite well and insulated, and there's very little air circulation takes place. What happened in the Swift Plant was that it took them three hours before they could get in.

They had to have special equipment and a special self­ supporting life system to go in. I am su ggesting that there shou ld be some identifying of these kinds of issues that may occur again, and that there sh ould be a lai d-down procedure to the safety committees of the particular plants that have such large volumes of ammonia.

Now, if the department is prepared to wait until we have another accident to find out how we have to suffer and struggle through another particul ar accident, that's fine, but I cannot see why they cannot at least have a hard look at it and make some recommendations which could be followed in the case of emergency procedures. Again I mentioned that because of the density of what takes place where liquid ammonia is sprayed into the system, into the particular area when a break occurs, you need special equipment and most of the plants that I am aware of do not have any of this.

So possi bly, as I say, if the mecha nical department wishes to wait until they have another incident and then make decisions, what I'm saying it's well worth having a look at. lt wouldn't take very much to determine what could and should be done. Now I know that in respect to developing these systems and in stalling them, there is ample inspection. But there isn't always ample planning done in order to make sure that there is more than one way of getting at the system and isolating a particular area. That's what was found in the Swift plant when they had a breakdown there.

Now I'm sure the Minis ter wouldn't want to wait until we have another accident, wherever it happens to be, and find out that because we just did nothing about it, it would take us a long time and a real struggle to elimi nate that particular problem. I believe if we are going to enforce The Workplace Safety and Health Act in what its intent is, then this mechanical department has to come up with advice to him, and if they say everything is fine and dandy, then I say they're sitting in ivory towers. I don't think that everything is fine and dandy.

I work on the floor and I know that there are areas where if something broke, we wouldn't be able to get in. I know that at the pla ce where I wor k they have no special equipment with which to get in and unless the Fire Department comes up with some equipment to let us into that area, and they have to be informed if they're wearing it, where to find a valve, what to do with it, then they're going to have difficulties. So I think a little bit of forethought and a little bit of suggested planning in respect to this kind of an area would be helpful from the department. Now I do not desire to debate it tonight.

I'll talk to the Minis ter pr ivately and I' ll giv e him further information if he wishes, but I'm saying that I do think his department should be looking at it a little more closely. 1t is not just rosey out there in the plant areas. I know the insp ectors come around and do a dili gent job, but they do not have to live with the particular area for 24 hours a day, like the people on the shift. If something happens, as I say, certainly we've got gas masks and so on. We've also got totally self-sustaining oxygen masks.

But if you can't get near it because you're going to get burned because the place is spraying liquid all over the place, and you don't have a wet suit, you're not going to be of much use no matter how much you know and no matter how much you want to do something. So I suggest that this is an area that should be looked at. Let me switch to something else. The Minis ter indi cated that there was an upgrading in respect to the flexible ga s conne ctors after we had that situation that we discovered a couple of years back and he gave us an update last year in regard to that. 1087

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 Can he inform us, the Committee, whether we are now anywhere near having caught up with the backlog that there was? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Well, two or three answers, I'll talk to the member about this availability of proper equipment that he was mentioning. I'll talk to him after about that and see if we can 't follow up specifically on that In answer to one of his previous questions, Power Engine ers, they are accepted, our credentials, right across Canada except for Ontario and Quebec.

The journe yman ele ctricians, their li cences are interchangeable with Alberta, Sas katchewan and ourselves. In relationship to the gas connector problem that we chose to do something about and was long overdue in doing something about, our numb ers are, that there's been approxi mately 21 ,000 connectors that were changed in the Winn ipeg area. We are aware, positively, of 42 that, in our opinion, were potentially faulty connectors which could have been considered potentially lethal. We suspect, Mr.

Chairman, that that number of 42 could possibly be trippled if we had our hands on all that were changed, but we have positive evidence of 42 that were waiting to explode, I suppose you could say. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kild onan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I thank the Min ister for his information. Let me ask him in respect to firefighting, which comes under this department as well.

Can he inform us whether there's been any thought in the mechanical division to suggest that there be some retrofitting of some of the high rises that may not have standard equi pment that is cu rrent at the present time, in respect to th e standards? Because there are some highr ises that weren't req uir ed to im plement all that safety equi pment that there is present in the bylaws today. MR. MacMASTER: Ju st a cla rification to the member. Are we talking about the Fire Commissioner's Department or is the qu estion specifically related to M and E? We're prepared to discuss all the fire prevention methods. MR.

FOX: I can leave the fire thing to when we get to the Fire Department. MR. MacMASTER: it's next on the agenda. MR. FOX: Yes, I understand that. MR. MacMASTER: Okay, thank you. MR. FOX: I lost my place. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b) (1) - the Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr . Chai rperson. The Minister ind icated that to his knowledge, 21 ,000 faulty or 21 ,000 fle xible conne ctors had been repla ced in the Winnip eg area. We kn ow from discussions last year that there were 1, 000 or several thousand that were replaced outside of the Winnipeg area.

My qu estion to the Mini ster would be, what percentage of the total number that needs to be replaced as this 21 ,000 or perhaps even 23,000 figure, represent? MR. MacMASTER: Our information is that virtually all the connectors have been changed. I have to put it in the record, that I'm sure there's some someplace, somewhere that we can't find, but we're reasonably satisfied. My department's advised me, the other organ iza tions that were work in g in conjunction with this have advised us, that they really think by and large that the problem has been corrected. MR.

COWAN: If I understand the Minister correctly, then it is the understanding of the department and of course the caveat that he placed upon his remarks, is it absolutely necessary that there may be isolated instances where connectors have not been replaced that they are not aware of, however, it is their general understanding that overall, this problem has been dealt with and all those major areas of replacement have been acc ompl ished. Is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, right. MR. COWAN: Thank you.

The Min ister last year when we talked about the exemptions for Hooker and Simpl ot, ind icated that it was his opinion that the power engi neers were becoming a pretty scarce commodity - those are his words - in this province and that it was an area that was being looked at in respect to critical trades, critical skills, trades, designation.

Yet if we look at the figures this year for the number of certificates issued under The Power Engine ers' Act, we find that in fact there is an actual decrease in the number of certificates issued, that's including the renewals from the year previous, 19 79, being a total of 3,939, and this year being a total 3,917. I would ask the Mini ster for some comment on what appears to be a decrease in that already scarce commodity in the province, as the Min ister referred to it last year, that of the power engineer. MR.

MacMASTER: I can't definitely explain why in one category they're up or the other category they're down, and I have passed the document on to one of the staff. I do recall that in some categories they were up and some categories they were down, there is nothing unusual or nothing hidden about that. That is an up-and-down sort of a situation where there's more people going in, more people coming out, and, yes, top notch power engine ers are a scarce commidity in Canada, not just necessarily Manitoba.

Yes, they are as scarce as hen's teeth, if that's the expression I used last year, then I say that again this year; they are very very much in demand, and people are quite prepared to pay one heck of a premium to try and get top notch people. I am aware that during the course of the year Simplo t did in fact have, I'm guessing, it's one or two on their way, and it didn't materialize in either case because they did inform us at one particular time during the course of the year, they had a sec on d-cla ss coming and it didn' 1 materialize. 1088

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 MR. COWAN: Perhaps we'r e in the wrong profession, if power engineers are that scarce - (Interjection)- The Mini ster says it is a long grind to get the ticket and he is certainly correct, they deserve the money they're getting as do all most all workers deserve the money they're getting.

However, the fact is that there is still in this province and across the country, as the Mini ster is correct in saying, a decrease in the number of qualified power engi neers and it's a crucial area for the province. it's a crucial area for the country. it's just one of those areas in the development of skilled trades, in fact critical skilled trades, where much more action is needed.

I would ask the Mini ster if he can inform us as to what action his department has taken over the past year to try to deal with this skilled trade shortage, and action or actions which he suggested would be forthcoming when he recognized the fact that they were scarce, and what actions they have in mind for the upcoming year to encourage people to move into this trade and to encourage the full use of power engi neers where ever they are mandated legislatively in the province? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we have been working very hard with indus try and the people inv olved in it.

We have substantial numb ers in the third and fourth class. We're hoping to encourage some of the people to carry on through the years and further develop into the higher classifications. In working with the ind ustry and with the engineers we have revised some of the courses, which was felt desirable by both ind ustry and by the trades people themselves within that trade. I should say that Si mplot itself does have a first-class chief. They have a staff of power engine ers, not necessarily the second-class, that's the difficulty there, but they do have a first-class. They have several lower classes.

They are now very actively training engineers right in plant. They have sent more than one to Red River Community College for additiona l training. Th ey constantly have a staff of between 12 and 14 professional engine ers within their operation, and they have a record of pretty good maintenance within their operation, plus the fact that they did get an excellent safety award and they have an excellent safety record.

There are some efforts being made, which we have been very insistent of, of Sim plot in that particular plant, and some pretty legitimate efforts are being made and our department has been working with the ind ustry, both labour and management, revising the courses somewhat to the satisfaction of all parties. MR.

COWAN: Just to comment on the Mini ster's remarks when he says that there a substantial number coming in at a third, fourth, and fifth-class levels, and that's where we would expect to see incr eases if in fact there was a concentrated effort to bring people in, because you don't bring them in at the first and second class levels, you bring them in and have them work their way through those lower class levels.

However, while the Min ister is absolutely correct in suggesting that there's a substantial increase in the fifth-class level, we know that there is going to be some of those persons who will drop out, and I imagine the Mini ster can probably provide us with a statistically acceptable percentage as a numb er of people who enter at fifth-class who do not make it to fourth-class and do not make it ultimately to first­ class. We will see a number of those drop out and we would expect to see an increase there.

However, if you take the third, fourth and fifth classes, you see that in 19 79 there were 40 - excuse me - in the third class, there were 13 more in 19 80 over 197 9; in the fourth class there were 41 less in 19 80 over 1979; in the fifth class there were 35 more in 19 80 over 1979. That's some quick math.

I hope I'm not proven incorrect at a later time, but I think that the figures are roughly correct which would give us a difference of 7 additions in those three classes over the past year, which is not a sign ificant numb er in respect to the need. it's a significant number for those ind ividuals, but it's not a significant number in respect to the critical shortage in that area, and therefore using the classifications that the Mini ster gave us, third, fourth, and fifth-class, we have to disagree with his statement that there is a substantial increase. He says that they have revised the courses somewhat.

The government has done that. Has that been done in conjunction with advice and recommendations from the Power Eng in eering Advisory Committee? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, there's a Power Engineering Advisory Committee at the Red River Community College and it was done in conjunction with them. If in fact we can pick up, 30, 40, 50, or 60 people in the power engineering trade every year, with the multitudes of opportunities in trades in this province, that's not bad. If we could multiply that to every trade existing in the Province of Manitoba we would have one heck of a big increase in people taking trades.

There are other ways you can reach your power engi neers' plateau. You can work as a person within a plant and eventually gain so much practical experience and eventually you pick up a lot of the bookwork yourself, that periodically people do in fact write courses, and they are permitted to do that. MR. COWAN: Even that 35, which is an increase, is in percentage terms not very great an increase.

I don't have my calculator here, so I can't figure it out on the spot, but it would appear to be far less than a couple or around a couple of percent increase, and we're talking about an area where the Min ister has found it necessary to provide at least one exemption presently, and in the past to provide a couple of exemptions because there just weren't enough first­ cla ss operators and second-class operators available, and yet we see that sort of mini scule increase in the numb er of certificates issued which includes renewals by the· way, in those areas.

I would just suggest that the Min ister is absolutely correct in his assumption or in his thesis that there are not enough power engineers. I would suggest that more has to be done if we are in fact to deal with this problem in any sort of a comprehensive way. There's just not enough coming onstream even with all their efforts. Last year the Mini ster indicated that the Power Engine ering Advisory Committee would be - maybe - I have to change that - his words were maybe recommending changes in regulations. Did those 1089

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 recommendations come forward from the Power Engineering Advisory Committee for such changes in the existing regulations MR. MacMASTER: Yes the recommendations have come forward. They are going though our review committees right now. They're going through the A.G.'s department, they'r e goin g through my department and hopefully they'll be in place in the very near future. This comm ittee has worked extremely hard in the last year. it's been very, very difficult and I think they've done a heck of a job. MR.

COWAN: We only hope those regulations do in fact become entrenched in legislation or through the regulatory process through the Order-in-C ouncil as soon as is possible. The Min ister indi cated also that there were last year, and I didn't pick up his figur es this year because unfortunately I had to be out of the room for a minute, but last year I belie ve that there were nine separate boards or committees directly affiliated with this

section and 12 committees responsible for various parts in Ma nitoba Building Code, each responsible for the Building Standards Board. The question to the Minis ter is: Are all those committees and bo ards currently functioning? MR. MacMASTER: Of the 19 that were mentioned, 17 are active, 2 are not active. it's felt that their work is virtually redundant and that's the Gas Examination Board and the Oil Examination Boa rd. They've virtually served their pu rpose accord ing to the information I've been given and the work is now automatically flowing through the department.

All the other boards and committees are all active. MR. CO WAN: Would this department be responsible for examining leaks in propane or gas originating from commercial facilities? MR. MacMASTER: Well, we could be involved, Mr. Chairman, but in a large number of cases, it's the utility that does that kind of thing. If the member could be more specific, maybe I could answer his questions. MR. COWAN: I am referring specifically to a leak, which was in the media just a number of days ago, earlier in last week. Unfortunately, I was not able to get the media reports, or all the media reports, I was up north at the time.

However, I do know that there was some suggestion that leak had been purposely caused and that it was a substantial leak and that there were in ves tigations that were ongoing in respect to that leak. I'm talking about the leak at one of the Greater Winnip eg Gas facilities. I'd ask the Mini ster if his department has investigated that leak? MR. MacMASTER: That is not our responsib ility, Mr. Chairman, to investigate that. Winnip eg Gas is responsible for it. They fixed it and it comes under the authority of the Util ities Board. it's not our responsib ility, Mr. Chairman. MR.

COWAN: Did this department or any other department und er the Minister's responsib il ity, inv estigate it, that leak? MR. MacMASTER : No in vest igation to my knowledge has taken place and should not have if it did. MR. COWAN: So the Minister is suggesting that his de partment would not be come inv olved in investigating that.

The reason I ask is that there was media conjecture and I have to admit that I did not hear all of it, because I was out of the city; however, it's my understanding that the leak came about on a piece of equipment that had been altered and that alteration was under its first test, its first winter test, and that it's perfectly understandable for leaks to come about in that situation. However, I have very little information more than that to provide, but I would think that it would be an area where the Min ister, or at least the Public Utilities Board, if that is appropriate authority, would be most interested.

If the piece that did leak had been altered, would it be the department's responsib ility to make certain that alteration was in keeping with standards. Again that may be the Public Utilities Board, but I'm just trying to make certain of where to bring this matter up. MR. MacMASTER: lt should be brought up with the Public Utilities Board, they are responsible for that jurisdiction. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: A couple of br ief questions regarding inspection at Sim plot Chemical in Br andon and I bel ieve with regard to the inspection of mechanical and engineering matters.

A couple of years ago the predecessor of the present Min ister of Labour ind icated that there was some curtailment of the degree of inspection services provided by the staff in Brandon, because that Mini ster did not wish to harass the company. I got the impression at that time, I'm going by memory, Mr. Chairman, that there was some curtailment of what I consider to be the legal and rightful duty and responsib ility of staff of this department with respect to mechanical and engineering standards.

And my qu estion is: Is it correct that the inspection staff still have to get permission from the company before they go ahead and inspect those boi lers? MR. MacMASTER: I think we should set the record straight and the record is this, that the inspection staff never did have to get inspection permission to go into that particular plant.

I remember the incident with my predecessor and maybe she was being accused by others of harassing the company, or maybe that allegation was being made, but let me assure the member, and I should also say that that particular point I think the previous Minister of Labour might not have been familiar with all the positions and the actors that were involved in the situation; bu t I'd like to assure the Member for Brandon, as kindl y as I can, that I am maybe a little more familiar with the operations and I am not intimidated in any way by any of the parties inv olved in that particular situation.

We are inspecting and we will inspect where we choose to inspect in the Province of Manitoba and we are not intimidated in any way, shape or form 1090

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 and do not ask for special permission from any particular party to investigate what we feel is a situation that needs inv estigating. MR. EVANS: I am very glad to hear the Mini ster make this firm statement because that attitude by the Mini ster is a responsible attitude and that is the attitude that any Minister of Labour of any government must take, but, Mr. Chairman, before the Member for La Verendrye gets too carried away, the word harrassment and the use of the word harrass, was not the words of the members of the Opposition, including myself. We did not .. MR.

CHAIRMAN: One Speaker at a time. MR. EVANS: We did not suggest that there was harrassment, I believe, and I am prepared to check Hansard.

I believe that was the word, the expression, the phrase used by the former Mini ster of Labour, the now Min ister of Cultural Affairs, that she was going to insure that company, Simplot, was not to be harr assed by in spectors in her Depar tment. (I nterjection)- The Member for Rock Lake ind icates we are dealing with 81, and that's fine, but the point is I want to make sure, I want to satisfy myself, that 1979 or 1978, is not present with those, those situations, that policy, that procedure is not present in the department in the year of our Lord 1981. Ma y I ask the Min ister this qu estion, Mr . Chairman?

While he has stated they do not have to get permission, is it the practise of these inspectors to give prior notice to company officials that the inspectors are on their way to do whatever they have to do? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, I have answered this question several times and I think I should sort of add to the first qu estion; if the Member for Brandon or any other member of the Legislature of Manitoba finds that a union or an organization or a Crown corporation or a company is crying they are being harrassed, as long as I am Min ister of Labour you can rest assured that if it's deemed to be harrassment it's for damn good cause. I just want to make that clear, I don't care whether it's a company in the future, to put that thing to bed. Mr.

Chairman, I have said repeatedly, and I repeat, that it wouldn't be wise, and I can't say it any stronger without being too crude or rude, but it wou ldn't be wis e for me to find out that our inspe ctors are informing compan ies of periodic checks that they may be making. The only time our in spectors may - through procedure a company would know when they are returning as if there was a 48-hour limit to have something corrected or a 24- hour limit, and obviously the company and the union and the people invol ved would be expecting our inspector to return.

We do not prewarn people as to when we are coming to visit them for whatever reason. it's not good polic y; it's not a good philosophy; and it's certainly not a philo sophy of mine, and it will not be accepted, will not be condoned by people within the Departments that I am responsible for. MR. EVANS: Again, I welcome the Mini ster's remarks, because the reason I asked the question, of course, Mr.

Chairman, is because the former Mini ster of Labour did indi cate also that she thought as a matter of courtesy, or words to that effect, that her Department - she was going to insure that the Depar tment would gi ve proper notice to the companies before the inspectors came. I don't want to put words in that person's mouth, but I recall her words generally to that extent, and now I see ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake on a point of order. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. I would like to know if we're dealing with 1981 Estimates or are we dealing with 19 79?

I think we are dealing with mechanical engineering problems that may be occurring today and not 1979. MR. CHAIRMAN: Probably, the Member for Rock Lake has a point. The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: On the same point of order, Mr . Chairman. I think what we are trying to do is establish whether there is a definite policy in respect to the department, and I think the Minis ter has very well ind icated that there is a policy that there will be no coddling of anybody in respect to this particular area of in spection.

I am sure the Member for Brandon East was just trying to determin e that particular polic y and get assurances from the Mini ster. To set the record straight, I wanted to also ind icate - I am no longer on the point of order, but I will take the advantage of having the mike - there is notice given by the department because there is an annua l ins pection that takes place and that comes onstream; people have to prepare for it. I know because I am involved in it. When we have to have a boiler inspected we have to indi cate, we give notice that we are going to take a particular piece of equipment out of the line.

You can't just come in any time and say, let me have a look at it. A boiler is un der pressure; it takes 24 hour s to cool off sometimes. There are many other incidenc es of where there has to be co-operation and it's a two­ way street. I think the only thing that we were trying to determine was whether there would be spot ins pections, and whether there would be any kind of notice on that, and I think that's the area the Mi nister gave us assurance that there wouldn't be, and I am satisfied with that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: The point of order that I raised, Mr .

Chairman, I lis tened very carefully to the honourable gentleman opposite, and I thought the Member for Brandon East had a valid question, and I heard the Mini ster give a very adequate answer to him, but he still wants to continue pursuing 1979 Estimates and dragging out the Hansards from 1979. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order, and I think we'd get on with the busine ss of dealing with the resolution in 1981. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's exactly what the Chairman would like too. The Member for Churchill on the same point of order. MR. COWAN: I don't wish to belabour the discussion.

I don't think that it was all that necessary 1091

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 in the first place. I can be fairly certain that we would have been completed with this particular questioning had the point of order not been interjected.

However, it's the responsibility and the right of every member to bring a point of order forward when they believe they have a legitimate point of order, and it's the responsi bility, and I don't mean to lecture the Chair on this, of the Chairperson to rule on that point of order, and when you suggested that you felt that the Memb er for Rock Lake -(I nterjection)- I am speaking to the point of order, if you will listen you will understand, perhaps.

The fact is that when the Chair said that he felt that the indi vidual or the Member for Rock Lake had a point of order; what he in fact was saying was that we cannot bring up in our discussions in these Estimates what happened in the past, and I would suggest to you that we have to be able to bring up in the di scussion of the Estimates what happened in the past, and I would hope that you would not rule that is not part of the Estimates procedure. lt has been; we have allowed it throughout and we have found that this committee has done, what I believe to be, a very productive examination of the Estimates, being able to look to the past, being able to look to what is happening right now, and yes indeed, even being able to look to the future.

I would hope that we would not be denied that opportunity because of a ruling, and I would ask you to make a ruling on whether or not in fact, the Member for Rock Lake had a point of order when he said that we should not be able to dis cuss what happened in 1978 or 1979, when reviewing in fact what is happening in 19 80. I think it's a very important decision on your part. I know that the Member for Rock Lake wants to see these move along as expediently as possible and so do we and so do the Min ister and I know you do, Mr.

Chairperson, but I think that we have to be able to look at what is happening today from many perspectives and in a global sense. I would hope that you would not rule that we cannot discuss what happened in the past, and I know that had we had the opportunity to continue on with discussing this matter we probably would have been able to have finished it by now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, having just listened to the Member for Church ill, apparently he did not listen to what I said.

I said that the Member for Brandon East had a vali d question to ask the Minister and he went back to 19 79 Estimates of a previous Minister. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, and I listened to hi m, and I think we gave hi m, in all fai rness, the opportunity to pose his question, to seek information; that's the pu rpose of the Estimates. I think that the Mi nister gave a very adequate answer to it, but the Member for Brandon East did not seem to be satisfied with that, Mr. Chairman, and he is still belabouring the point.

I thought the Min ister had given him a full answer to his question, and I thought that we should get on with the Estimates that are before us. I have no qua rrel wi th my honourable friend opp osite to question the Minister and seek information; never have I ever said that they should not be allowed to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchi ll. MR. COWAN: Now I don't understand a point of order. Is a point of order that we cannot dis cuss events that transpired in the past or is a point of order that we must be satisfied with the Minister's answer upon first examination? MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, I thought I made it clear. The point of order I raised, Mr. Chairman, the Member for Brandon East has posed a legitimate question, he got an answer from the Mini ster, but on my point of order, Mr. Chairman, I don't think we have to go back and belabour it again. I think the Mi nister has given adequate answer and we should get on with the Estima tes that are before us, but the Member for Brandon East wants to go back again and belabour the matter. I thought he got an answer from the Mini ster and that's my point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Well we got more points of order than I am a Chairman and I think the point was well taken and I think the Chair would feel that you have to compare one year to another, but how far we go back is maybe in question at this moment, so could we go ahead with the question started. I know there's three or four on the same point of order. If we want to hassle all night I would like another Chairman. I could go and do something else, but really the point is clearing these Estima tes and the Member for Brandon East did have the Chair, even though the Member for Logan is on the same point of order.

All right, the Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, I want to draw your attention to this set of documents that we are looking at here, the Minis ter's report. We're dealing wi th the year 19 79 and 19 80. I can see gas inspections here of equipment, November 1s t, 19 79 to October 31s t, 1980. I sat in that Cha ir where you 're si tting, Mr. Chairman, for a good number of years and I have never ever seen it that a person couldn't go back to something else, because I have seen it year after year where they've gone back 20 years talking about something.

That's the only way that you can compare what is happening in a department from year to year over a three-year period or five-year period or ten­ year period. I think that the questions that the Member for Brandon East were asking were to the point. I think that we've been getting along fairly well in this Committee. We've been proceeding, but if you want to knock them down, drag them out and fight in this Committee, well dammit all, you'll sure as hell get it. MR. CHAIRMAN: it's not the Chair's point. The Honourable Mini ster. MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister is quite willing, God willing, able to answer any further questions that you might have on this point, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Then we'll go back to the Member for Brandon East. 1092

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairma n, I think we were getting along very fine. I don't know why the Member for Rock Lake is so defensive. My questions pertain to the policy in the year of our Lord 1981 and the reason I'm asking these questions is, that the previous Min ister, as I indi cated before, had given the impression to myself and other members of the Opposition that certain procedural changes were ordered by herself, with respect to the Simp lot Ch emical Company , now our fer tili zer company.

Now, the Mini ster answered one question and that is with regard to having to get permission and the answer was qu ite clear that he was going to carry out his respon sibil ities under the Act as he is requir ed to. I asked the second question today. In the year of our Lord 1981, are you requirin g the staff to give notice? And I think more or less we got the answer to that. So now I want to go back and ask a thir d question, because the former Mini ster told us, and this was on Tuesday, Jun e 13 th, 19 78, and I' m quoting, it says," Mrs. Pri ce", on page 3,684 of Hans ard of that year.

They are referring to the inspectors. "They are not going around at the turn of the shifts now, because they had been told not to". My question to the Mi nister is, has he told his inspectors that they should not go around at the turn of the shifts because he, or in his wisdom, deems that they should not go around at the turn of shifts? MR. MacMASTER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I think with some consultation with myself and the di rectors of my division, is that they are allowed the latitude to exercise appropria te inspection procedures and times and I have a great deal of faith in them, that they'll do their inspections appropria tely. They will do them without giving notice to employers precisely when they're making spot checks. I've made it very clear that if they do, then somebody has a problem and it's not me. I have again, a great deal of faith in the common sense exercised by our inspectors. I hav en't ordered them precisely when to make inspections.

I have no intention of doing that. I think that they're quite capable of making a rational judgment when they should make inspections in plants. MR. EVANS: The Minister has indi cated that he's not advising hi s staff or telling them when they should make insp ections, that they should use their own good common sense, fine. But just to make it clear then, there is no specific suggest ion or recommendation that either at Simplot or indeed any other plant in the province, that there is no policy which says you should not go at the turn of the shifts. Do I take that as the Mi nister's answer?

I just want to get that clear. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I am satisifed that our inspectors inspect at what they deem to be the appropriate time to satisfy themselves, to satisfy the director, and to satisfy the Mini ster and to satisfy the conscience of the people in the Province of Manitoba that a good job is being done. MR. EVANS: The Mini ster may not have this detail at his fingertips, but he could perhaps give us an indi cation. How often would inspection staff go in this area of mechanical and engineering to a plant such as Si mplot?

At least once a year I would gather that's the minimum, but is there any pattern, two, three, four times a year or is there any reason why they should go less often or more often? Just what is the approach taken by the inspection staff with regard to the number and the length of the visits of inspections? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we suspect that in a plant such as Sim plot, our inspectors would be in there approximately five or six times a year. The inspections could range from two hours to half a day. MR. EVANS: Is that level of in spection above normal for a plant of that size or is that par for the course?

MR. MacMASTER: I don't know which course the gentleman is golfing on but I suspect that it is par for the course. MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, then can we be satisfied that the inspection procedures and the extent and degree of inspection that is carried out at Simp lot Chemicals in Bran don, is carried out in keeping with the general policy that's in place for the entire provinc e, that there's no special policy for Simp lot? I believe the Mi nister is telling us that this is part of a general thrust, the general approach in this area of activity by his department. MR.

MacMASTER: The member is correct. it's a general policy; it's quite in order as far as we're concerned and we feel it's very adequate. MR . EVANS: Mr . Chairman, there was some indi cation of reduction of output by the Hooker Chemical Company. To what degree are inspections taking pla ce in that area? Because of reduced activity there, does that mean that the number of inspections are reduced? I wouldn't think so, but I'm asking anyway. MR. MacMASTER: Possibly in the Hooker situation it would be three times a year, generally speaking the same length of period of time, couple of hours, three hours. MR.

EVANS: In another area then, this all happens to be incidentally, Mr. Chairman, in the East End of Br andon in the Indus trial Park; both of these companies that we've been discussing are in the Brandon City Indu strial Park; the third operation is also and it's connected to one of the former, and that is the Paul's Hauling maintains a yard there and the trucks come there for products, etc.

As the Min ister probably kn ows or maybe has some knowledge of, there was a very bad accident a couple of years ago with inju ries and death; injuries on the part of the fire fighters and death I believe, eventually on the part of the driver. Is this area of mechanical and engineering insp ection applied to what looks to me to be large boiler-like containers that Pau l's Ha ul ing , and inde ed other trucking companies, might carry anhydrous ammonia about the province. As I think many on this committee 1093

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 kn ow, particu larly those with an agricu ltural backg round, it can be a very dangerous substance. There was a leak; there was an accident there a couple of years ago; and as I said one person died and there were injur ies and I'm just wondering, is this the area of the department that insures that these trucks and their connections, etc., are up to standard, that all safety procedures that should be carried out are being carried out? Is this a function of this division? MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Chairman, we make the annual inspection to certify the boilers.

The rest of the particular operation is a Federal jurisdiction. MR. EVANS: it's a Federal jurisdiction. What about with respect to the licensing of the trucks? I would imagine that's in the Department of Hig hways but it seems to me that that's a provincial licensing matter, but I guess what the Minis ter is telling us with regard to safety standards, then for whatever reason this is Federal, even though they operate under a provincial traffic licence. MR. MacMASTER: I can only repeat that we make the annual inspection for certification of the boilers and it's a Federal Charter. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: There's one that appears to be an anomaly in the Annual Report of this year and I dir ect the Minister's attention to Table 6, which ind icates the number of inspections of the electrical installations under The Electrician's Licence Act and last year there were 64 electrical installations in buildings; no tests of hospital operating room floors; and 19 fire and explosion investigations; this year we only have four fire and explosion investigations for a total of four inspections altogether, compared to a total of 83 inspections last year.

I'd ask the Mini ster if that is an explainable phenomena. MR. MacMASTER: Table 6, Mr. Chairman, is only done at the request of the Fir e Commissioner's Office. MR. COWAN: So in fact, there have only been those nu mb ers of requ est from the Fir e Commissioner's Office. Is there a reason for the low number of requests? Has that happened in the past or is this a unique phenomena for the year 1980? MR. MacMASTER: With a difference between four and 19, I think was last years, it is strictly up to the Fire Commissioner's Office the request that they make of the M & E division. MR.

COWAN: Then I would ask the Mi nister if the fi rst line in that Table which reads: Electrical Installations in buildings, where last year it ind icated there were 64 and this year it indi cates there were none, is also made upon the request of the Fire Commissioner's Office, or is that action initiated by the Department? MR. MacMASTER: The staff informed me that the electrical installations in buildings under Table 6 relates to some times and the only example they could give was a fishing camp where there may be a diesel plant in place.

The director tells me that quite obviously this year we just didn't inspect any of them or were made aware of them or requested to look at them, in this particular year. MR. COWAN: This is a particular inspection that is usually made upon request or upon receipt of information of a new installation going in, that would ind icate that they want those sort of installations? I ask that question because we can go back quite some time if we want, back to 1966 when there were 1,504 in spec tions under this particular item or another year 19 69 when there were 1,738.

We see in the last numb er of years that the number has been dr opping fairly rap idl y so I was just trying to determine in my own mind using that historical information which is available to us and which we have to consider from time to time, what the long­ term trend was and it appears as if it's a perfectly explainable phenomena and I thank the Mini ster for providing us with that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2. (bX 1) - pass - the Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Mr.

Chairman, I noticed in the number of inspections in respect to boilers, unfired pressure vessels there was a note that the refrigeration ins pections were included in the vessels total, and I just wondered why that was separated out; and secondly, is it because there is getting less pressure vessels in respect to refrigeration or why is there a separa tion, not a separation as in dicated in the origina l print-out? MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for Kild onan repeat the question, please? MR.

FOX: Yes, on page 16, Numb er of inspections made and certificates issued under The Steam and Pressure Plants Act, there's a number of headings under that and there's one that says, Refrigeration. All the way across it's blank yet there's a memo that says there were 260 ins pections of anhydrous ammonia portable vessels, stationery vessels, plant equipment and truck equipment. I'm just wondering why it was lumped in together with vessels. MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Chairman, I don't want to delay the proceedings. My director has no rationale for why that was put in this year. We'll get that rationale for the member. MR.

FOX: In respect to elevator inspections, I note on page 21 that the total in respect of permits issued and the number of inspections is quite far apart. Can the Min ister give the rationale of how often the elevators are inspected and also how up-to-date those inspections are? I recall that last year there was a numb er of elevators that were brought to the attention, or elevators that were oper ating that had no certificates. Now whether those certificates had been not issued or whether they had just not been placed in place, was one of the questions that was raised.

The other question was that was the Min ister's inspection up-to-date at that time, and I believe, if my memory is correct, that he said they were a little beh ind. They were trying to catch up. Can he 1094

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 ind icate what the status of inspections is at the present time, in respect to elevator inspections? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, without trying to skate around the question, I am advised that some elevators, because of age, in particular are inspected more than once a year and the majority of them get inspection once a year. We have some that we in fact inspect more than one time a year and others we try to get at least once a year. The division tells me that they'r e reasonably satisfied with the inspection procedures that are in place.

On the other 260, the Director tells me that it doesn 't matter whether I wait until tonigh t or tomorrow, the rationale simply was, they thought they'd lump them all together and gi ve an explanation for it. I think in reviewing the statistics that the member pointed out, that possibly next year he'll find that they're back to the 260 or 280 or 220 or whatever it is, is back in a column by itself to clear up that confusion and obviously to save the questions. MR.

FOX: lt might save a question next, it won't save a question this year, because the inspections and the existing installations and the number of certifi cates issued don't match . If they are all checked, I would like to know whether some of those vessels didn't get certificates after inspection. I would assume, that some of the inspections were taken, like the Mini ster said, more than once and that's why there would be more in totals in respect to inspections, then there are existing installations.

But if they were separated out, it would be easier to translate which ones are being inspected and how often, in respect to existing installations and the number of certificates issued , because they should come close together in respect to the number of installations. Getting back to the elevators, it's the same problem, that permits were issued to a certain numb er of elevators, but the inspections were far less than the number of elevators that there are, and if I take the Mini ster as correct, when he says they have at least one inspection a year, then someplace or other the statistics don't match.

I am under the assumption and I may be corrected on this, but I do believe some of these permits are issued on a two year basis and some possibly even on a three year basis. If I'm wrong I'd like to be informed, because otherwise the number of inspections and the number of permits would have to be equal. Can the Mini ster give us a rationale on that? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the explanation has been given to me that some of the elevators do not requir e annual in spections and that is the controversy here, but they do in fact require annual permits. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Hono ur able Memb er for Logan. MR.

JENKINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I just want to ask the Min ister a question, it's one that I asked him last year. lt wasn't that there wasn't inspection but there was problems with vandalism in some of the elevators where they were removing the certificates and I just wondered if there has been any brought to the Min ister's or the department's attention this year, because there were elevators in service last year that were operating, I imagine with the proper permits and licence to do so, but when one went into the elevator they found out that the permits were missing.

I must say the ones that I drew to the Mi nister's attention were put back and they were put back with some pretty good screws, that evidently the vandals couldn't get off. But is this a problem in some of the elevators that we are licensing or issuing permits for in the province? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it is a problem. I have a problem in my own apartment block. They've used some pretty good screws in there, but I guess somebody's got a good penknife or a thumbnail, because they keep taking that damn thing out too. lt is a problem. We haven 't been able to devise a complete solution for it.

We do advise agencies, organizations, people that own hotels and buildings that if they would make us aware that they're down then or ourselves when we're going through ... You know it's a co-operative sort of a thing and we think we're doing better at it and we think the general public, surely to goodness has become a little more knowledgable and conscious of the fact that the damn thing should be left there period. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that and I can assure him that any time I see an elevator without one, I will certainly notify him.

I would like to just ask a question on the number of lic ences that were issued under The Electrican's Act. There were 3,561 certificates issued for the period under that we're reviewing here and I see that there was a number of examinations conducted. The conductio n of exam in ations are for apprentices coming out of their time. Is that correct, the 53 that show there, because I see the figure on the right­ hand side in number of certificates issued, including renewals with a figure 1 behind it and underneath it says includes journeyman's licences to apprentices who have completed their apprenticeship?

I was just wondering if the left-hand figure is the amount of apprentices that came out of their time, had their exami nations and received their lic ense. Is that correct? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, in that particular column, it does not relate to apprentices. it's to people that have been working within the industry and wish to attempt to write an exam, and those are the number of exams that we personally carried out with people who grandfathered their way into semi­ professional trades; people who wanted to take a shot at writing the exam. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(2) - pass; 2.(c)(1) - The Member for Logan. MR.

JENKINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. This is the Fire Prevention Department and if the Mini ster wishes to make a statement before, I would be quite willing to listen. If not, I have some questions I would like to ask the Mini ster. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, this Fir e Prevention Branch, the branch referred to as the 1095

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 office of the Fire Commissioner, admin isters

part 11 of The Fire Prevention Act and related regulations.

The office of the Fire Commissioner promotes fire prevention and protection practises to reduce loss of life and property in the Province, pertaining to fires, prevention, establishing cause and origin of fires and supression of arson. lt may establish a central fire college and training programs for fire officers, firefighters and other persons in fire prevention and fire protection practices. lt may assist municipalities by giving advice on adequacy of water supplies, the enactment of fire by-laws, the establish ment of mutual aid areas and a provision of adequate fire apparatus.

The office of the Fire Commissioner may also collect and disseminate information with regard to fires in the province. During 198 1 and 19 82, the office of the Fire Commissioner will expand its fire prevention and protection program in the north, through the training facility, which is situated in Thompson. The branch pro poses to provide cou rses on the control of dangerous goods to all the fire servies in the north and to initiate an ind ustrial training program under the Canada Man power and Indu stria l Training Program to provide training and fire prevention and fire protection to the mining industry.

The office of the Fire Commissioner also provides regional training through emergency services i.e. fire, police and ambula nce person nel throughout the province on the control of dangerous goods. The branch is presen tly negotiating with Canada Manpower to provide ind ustrial fire training programs in areas other than the mining ind ustry. These training programs will be in addition to the present training now being offered to paid and volunteer fire departments and institutional personnel.

On this subject, I'd like to inform you that the Office of the Fire Commissioner has been requested to provide advance training to full-time fir e departments. To facilitate this training, the branch proposes to establish a training facility in Brandon over the course of the next two or three years. The first phase of this project is contained in the Capital Expend itures of the Department of Govern ment Services. I should tell the Members just so they kn ow, that the figure establis hed this year is $450,000. I suspect that's 40 or 50 percent of the way.

Now I don't know what the final tenders, of course, on the project will be, but we suspect that it's well on its way to establishing the Fire College. -(I nterjection)- I just wanted to finish if I could. The expansion in services will be possible through our existing and proposed training facilities and by the addition of one SMY to be located in Thompson. lt is also necessary to provide one additional SM Y in the Fire In ves tigation

Section to cope with the volume of investigations which the branch is requir ed to perform. Staffing, with respect to staffing in the office of the Fire Commissioner, last year there were 29 staff man years and this year we are requesting 31 - oh, pardon me, last year was 29.05; this year its 31 .05 an increase of two staff man years. As I've indic ated, one of the new positions will be located in Thompson and will work on the fire training activities in the new Thompson training centre and in the major centres in the north. One additional staff man year will be added to the Fire lnvesigation

Section to help cope with the volume of investigations and cases which the branch is required to handle. MR. JENKINS: Just before I proceed, my colleague has brought some coffee in here for the staff if they want to help themselves, and the Min ister. it's there at the front if you wish to help yourself, and Mr. Chairman. I thank the Min ister. We're not trying to corrupt you in any way, I don't think, Mr. Chairman. When we started the Estima tes of the Department of Labour, I made some comment at that time that I would like to discuss some of the problems that we seem to have in fire prevention and whatnot.

I want to congratulate the Mini ster on the prompt action that he took last year with respect to the fire at the Fairlane, 230 Fairlane, where the Commission of Inquir y was established and some very good things have come out of this. I also see that, and I just have to go back because the question that I want to ask the Min ister is one that is sort of related to the Building Standards Board which has developed a course for building inspectors; this course will be available during the summer of 19 81.

While we all want to work towards prevention of fires, once a fire is in progress we have to make sure that the proper building standards have been carried out in the construction of that building, especially with respect to fire walls, elevator shafts, other things that cause fires to rapidly get out of hand, especially in our society today where we hear, and I guess that he will as we approach the 21s t century. More and more people are not going to be living in individual homes, they are going to be living in what I call cliff dwellings.

When you get a number of people living together in a confined space, in close proximity to each other, the incidence of accidental fires, and I'm not talking about fires that are deli berately set under arson, that is another problem, but the fact that just by accidental use of cooking, heating, that we take as our ordinary day course of living, these accidents when they happen in high-rise dwellings or multiple dwellings where many people are living in a very small space, actually on ground, but if it was spread out over an area would be quite an area if they were ind ividual housing units; so when we have a fire in one of these places the equip ment, the other means of fighting these fires, are getting to be altogether different to what fire brigades and fire prevention officers have had to deal with in the past.

We have only to look at the recent incidents that have taken place too, in the City of Toronto, with the hotel fires; the same thing can happen in high -rise apartments. We have had problems in Las Vegas, I think, within a period of a couple of months, two major fires, tremendous losses of life. In some cases arson may have been suspected; as I say, that's a problem that we'll always have, but there are not proper controls in the buildings for smoke inhalation; fire alarm systems. The Fir e Advisory Committee, according to your report, Mr.

Mini ster, and their three subcomm ittess have met 40 times to discuss matters concerning the fire service in Mani toba, the development of a proposed 1981 Manitoba Fire code. And this is the line that in terests me, "The develo pment of alternative regulations to provi de for the upgrading of existing buildings and all aspects of fire alarms 1096

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 in cluding local alarm systems, central reporting systems, as well as telephone reporting systems". Is the Minister going to have his Buil din g Inspection Course that he is setting up under the Mechanical Engineering Department; are they going to be brought up-to-date when this course is set up.

With the new developments that the Mini ster hopes that this Fire Advisory Committee will come up with regulations I would be very interested in knowing just how he is going to dovetail, because you can't separate the one from the other, even though we have fire prevention and that is, in the main, what we are striving for here.

If we are going to prevent fires and lessen, because once a fire has commenced then we don't want to have to go back to a situation such as we had at the Fairlane complex where we now the Min ister and the City of Winn ipeg have ordered that there must be extensive renovations made to make these places as fire safe and as fire proof as possible.

So I would hope that when the Minister is dealing with these two, the setting up of the buildin g inspector's course under the building standards, that at the same time he would look at the fir e regulations and make sure that this is part and parcel of the curriculum that will be for these people who are in the building inspection staff.

If there are alternative regulations, as the report here states, for the upgrading of the existing buildings, perhaps that is one of the reasons why he wants more building inspectors because I think that some of the buildings that we have in place today, especially multiple dwelling buildings, all we need is one fire that could be of a bad nature and we could have quite a loss of life.

I would suggest to the Mini ster quite sincerely, I'm not trying to criticize him or anything, but I would suggest that if he is sinc ere in setting up that buil ding inspectors course that with it should be entailed also the hope that the regulations that he is going to set in place, never mind whether the standards, if the Minis ter and this committee in their wisdom decide that certain regulations are of such a nature that buildings that were built ten years ago don't come up to standard, well then I think that they should be brought up to standard.

I would appreciate very much if the Mi nister could give us his thoughts on the dovetailing of these two courses together. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the Member from Logan has touched on several points and I'll try and speak to them all. The training program for building inspectors will be working in conjunction with the Educa tion Comm ittee of the Building Standards Board which, of course, ultimately inv olves your Fire Commissioner's office in a series of overl apping throughout the system.

We've had approximately 35 to 40 req uests from ins pectors and from municipalities to put on a training course for them; certainly any new additions or present legislation that is in place will be brought to their attention at that particular time. The Pr ovincia l Fire Advisor y Commit tee has several subcomm ittees, as I think the member would appreciate, one of them is working right now on hig hrise upgra ding. it's called The Upgrading of Exis ting Bu ilding's Commit tee which is a subc ommittee of your Provincial Fire Advisor y Committee.

Winnip eg is presently upgrading, under their bylaw, a lot of the buildings with the city and it's our understanding that Brandon is moving in that dir ection. We'll be bringing in new regulations shortly as I have announced in the House and I told the members that we'll be bringing in new regulations. Part of them, and the reason that they weren 't alr eady in pl ace , was because of the Fairlane situation .

We wanted to be inclus ive of the recommendations of the McDermot Report as close as possible; yes, we're concerned about those types of housing too and I want to say to the member that I appreciate, on behalf of myself and our Fire Commissioner's office, his congratulations on the speed on which we moved to resolve that situation. I should say that a lot of my staff and the Building Standards Board, comprised of all segments of society, worked extremely hard trying to get that report together; trying to get the recommendations together.

I kn ow some of my staff travelled personally with me all over the province when we dealt with Altona and Portage, Brandon, The Pas and the other areas to bring to the attention of the officials in those particular areas that there is the possibility of buildings within their jurisdiction that may have a problem as related to the study, the McDermot Report, and the Fairlane Apartment thing. MR. JENKINS: Well, I thank the Min ister for that information.

Will this also take into account existing hotel facilities since these are also multiple dwelling facilities, the same as apartment buildings, especially since we have now become a large convention city. We had an incident here last year; I don't know whether it's gone to the courts or not but I think there was suspected arson involved. I congratulate somebody that there wasn't a greater loss of life involved in that hotel fire.

I would hope that the upgrading of regulations and the upgrading of the facility would include hotels in the city of Winnipeg and the Province of Manitoba because I think it behooves us, as I have said before, we are now starting to become a convention city with our new convention hall here. When people come into a city, as strangers, they certainly want the assurance; they want to go into a facility that is as reasonably safe as human hands can make it.

I tell you, I've never been to Las Vegas but after reading of some of the things that have taken place in some of the two hcJlel fires that took place in the city of Las Vegas, I certainly don't have it under my itinerary that I intend to visit that pla ce and stay in any hotels there. (I nterjection)- Not the top floor the Member for Chur chill said, but I don't think I'd even want to be on the bottom floor. I would hope that the upgrading regulations would also include hotels throughout the Province of Manitoba, motels, anything where there is multiple dwelling.

I just wanted to know if the Min ister could assure me that they are included, I'm not quite finished yet. MR. MacMASTER: We're talking about all Class E Residential which is inclusive of hotels. MR. JENKINS: In your report, Mr. Chairman , through you to the Mi nister, the Fire Commissioner's Office has an investigation section. I would like to kn ow jus t what training does the in vest igation

section undergo, I mean is this a

section within your department or do you use the services of existing 1097

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 Polic e Departments, Fire Departments, with the information gained from them. But if you have an investigation

section and it states that there is fatal fires, major fires, suspicious or arson fires and other fires with a cause and/or origin are in doubt are investigated by the investigation section. I would like to know just what type of training, if you have an investigation section, these people have. Are they experts in the field of fire investigation and what training have they received? Have they received training from Fire Departments and forensic services of various Police Departments? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, they go through the run of our own courses that we put on at the Brandon Uni versity and the Brandon Fire College. They attend Canadian Fire Investigation Courses, the Canadian ones. By and large the majority of them have taken courses that are now being presented in the Un ited States which are of very high calibre, and they all have either police background or they have been put through police training before they qual ify and before they are put on the type of inves tigations that the member is talking about MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that information.

How many people do we have in the investigation

section at the present time? MR. MasMASTER: Th ree in Winnip eg, one in Brandon - we're requesting in these Estimates for one additional one. MR. JENKINS: Wher e would this person be located? Are there any Northern Manitoba? MR. MasMASTER: Winnip eg, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKINS: This extra person would be for the City of Winnip eg. MR. MacMASTER: Yes. MR. JENKINS: If a fire of any consequence, where there is suspicion of arson or anything else, happens in the north, the investigation then would be carried out by the investigative officers from the Winn ipeg Branch, would that be correct?

There's no thought of stationing an investigative officer in the north at the present time? MR. MacMASTER: Not at the moment MR. JENKINS: thank the Mini ster for that information. Now one of the problems that we're having in today's society with our energy shortage and the high cost of energy is people are starting to install wood burning devices in their homes.

I remember watching on television one night, I think it was on 24 Hours not too long ago, but shortly before retiring the Fire Chief of the City of Winn ipeg was being interviewed and he stated that one of the real problems that the City of Winn ipeg is having is with people ins talling wood burning devices in their homes, especially fireplaces with zero clearance that are not being properly installed.

I know there has been some information put out on this but in the City of Winnip eg or say in the province, if I was to install a zero clearance wood burning fireplace in my house, I know I would certainly want to get the best information and I'd certainly want to have an inspection, but I want to know is it compulsory that an inspection be made after the installation of this device?

There is creosote buildup in chim neys and since people have not been burning that type of fuel for many, many years, many of our younger people have been raised on gas and oil furnaces, not even the old coal bomber that we used to hand fire down in the basement. I just wonder what kind of inspection, what kind of information there is.

When you go to dealers that are selling this equipment, they tell you there are certain precautions that have to be taken but is there anything coming from the Fir e Commissioner's Office itself dealing with certain regulations that have to be met? it's all right to have a zero clearance fireplace, you stick it up against a piece of two-by-four that's right along side the heat, eventually it's going to start that thing on fire.

I think that the Mini ster was saying last year that they were going to put out some pamphlets that would be available at dealers, at suppli ers of this type of equipment that would draw to the attention of people that they had to be careful, that it just simply wasn't a case of sticking a fireplace in and then throwing a fire in it and the thing would be all right. If the Mi nister has anything on this and whether there is any inspection I would be pleased to hear it MR. MacMASTER: Again I'll attempt to add ress myself to the majority of the points that the member has raised.

The City has the responsibility, they've been delegated, the City has that responsibili ty. In Brandon, we understand that now, now being in the last short period of time that they are requiring themselves a building permit. We have, in fact, prepared an information pamphlet outlining possible problems associated with such applia nces; we have put together a comp rehensiv e and provi ncial information booklet detailing methods of proper use and installation and I just asked one of our people to chase someone and get copies of it We have copies here which I am prepared to give to the member. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kildonan. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr. Chairman. The Memb er for Logan covered some of the area that I was going to discuss. I would just like to follow up in respect to whether the Fire Commissioner's office has done any research into special and inno vative measures in respect to high-rise fire fighting and evacu ation. I know that they have instituted that elevators get locked in case of fire and only the Fire Department can use them, but sometimes this isn't sufficient Can we get any kind of an update as to what other methods of evacua tion we have av ailable or are being looked at?

I know we looked at TV and so on and we hear of the fires that took place in Vegas where they had helicopiters rescuing people, and I'm jus t wondering whether any of these are being implemented or whether they're being contemp lated as contingency measures and what other research is being done to make certain that we do not have fatalities in case of these high rises. The other area that I'd like to receive information on if it's available is whether we have done any research in to evacuation of disabled and senior 1098

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 citizens, because many of them cannot walk stairs in the condition they're in and many of them do live in high rises and may have difficulty being eva cuated. I see the Chairman smiling at me, it must be a question he wanted to ask. MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is sent down the line, I'm not getting any response to it. MR. FOX: The word evacuation didn't give you a problem did it? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that we do work with the city on evacuation plans in apartments. I don't have that document in front of me.

There's certain methodologies that they wish to use - example two floors up and two floors down, keeping away from the particular floor where the smoke is indicating the fire, and we are working with departments outside the City, that's more our dir ect responsibility, in efforts to have eva cuation plans in place, but to say here that evacuation plans are in place throughout the province would be incorrect it's something that we're working at with the local municipal authorities wherever they may. In the area we're sitting in, we're working with the City Fire Department on that type of thing. MR. FOX: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister for that and I would be appreciative if I could get further updating on procedures that are being looked at.

Secondly, I'd like to ask whether there is any emphasis on hotels where we have a transient population to more rigidly enforce their standards and also their particular equipment, because as has been ind icated in other fires, not necessar ily in Winnip eg, fire doors have been locked, alarms have been turned off because they annoyed the clientele and I think that this is an area where also for the sake of those people who are clients of the premises, there should be greater publicity, maybe more information in the particular area so that people can see and visually be alerted as to what procedures they should take in case of fire.

Is any of that being followed in our hotels at the present time to any greater extent than it has been in the past? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the hotels will be part of the upgrading procedures that we're now revie wing, the Sub -Committee of the Provincial Fire Advisory Board is now reviewi ng. We are putting together coincidentally and have been working on it for a month or two, a pamphlet that we are going to have in all hotels in the Province of Manitoba.

In addition to that we are going to upgrade if you wish the the type of notice that is available within each particular hotel room and that notice certainly won't be a permanent sort of a thing because as the member has pointed out, new evacuation methods, new exiting procedures, that type of thing is always being upgraded so the area of the notice in the room is going to be hopefu lly on an ongoing basis, upgrading the types of notices they have in their room and we are at this very moment preparing a pamph let that we will be distributing to all hotels in the Province of Manitoba.

We've been working on that for a period of time. MR. FOX: May I ask the Minister how often the premises are inspected, because as I ind icated a little earlier, in some of these places because of vandalism or other reasons the alarms are turned off and then sometimes not reset? Can the Mini ster give us an approximate numb er of inspections that will take place and whether he's had any particular areas un der hi s ju risdiction that have had more false alarms, more vandalism than other areas in regard to fire alarms? MR. MacMASTER: Mr.

Chairman, within the city it is the City's responsibility; they're designated that responsibility. Outside the city there's other groups that do in fact investigate hotels and check while they'r e inv estigating - example, the Liquor Commissioner's Department when they inv estigate a hotel part of their procedure is assuring themselves that the fire alarm systems are working and working adequately. MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Arnold Brown (Rhineland): Mr. Sch roeder ... Mr. Cowan. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

In the past we have been supportive of the Min ister in respect to some initiatives and innovative programs that he has put in place in this department and given the information contained in the Annual Report of this year and given the information that we have been provided with so far, I think that we had placed our support correctly and that there are many positive things being done in this particular area for which the Min ister should be commended.

We have been harsh in our criticism of the Min ister in areas where we thought it was justifiable and I think that in all fairness we should be strongly supportive of the Mi nister and congratulatory in areas where we think that that is justified too and this is one of those areas. The Min ister will recall in our conversations and debates during the last couple of years that we were pleased to see the action that was taken. We felt that it was a necessary action. We were pleased to see the manner in which the Min ister was proceeding with this particular aspect of his department, this particular area.

I think that we have been justified in that support and justified in our congratulations and the Min ister should be in fact congratulated for his efforts here. We only wish that he'd acted as fast in some other areas, but let's not spoil a good congratulations by dwelling on that. He does deserve our supp ort, at least my su ppor t and my congratulations. I can't speak for my caucus in this respect although I'm certain they'll agree.

Especially in the north, if I can be parochial about it and I know the Min ister will allow me because that's an area of special concern to himself as well, that the action that they have taken in Northern Manitoba in respect to fire control and fire prev ention and enabling residents of communities to put together effective firefighting facilities and teams has been admirable and has been excep tional. I use that strong terminology because I think it has.

Now I have to as well extend those congratulations somewhat to the Federal Government because it was a joint federal-provi ncial program, the Northlands Agreement, which allowed for much of the work to be done but I don't want to take away any of the 1099

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 credit from the Mini ster. When I do that it's just a way of recognizi ng that the Federal Gover nment had some input into the northern activities as well. The Minister had in dicated last January - I'm certain no one wi ll take offence to my readi ng from the Esti mates of last year when I'm congratulating the Minister and he had ind icated that, and I quote him, "The northern community aspect of the program is extremely important." He has put his action and his money where his mouth was on that. He's done a very good job; it was basically a sound program.

In many respects it was an excellent program. There were some problem areas, the Minister and I have discussed them privately. The Minister and I have discussed publicly but there are always going to be problem areas, inno vative and far-reachi ng programs. I think that the record will very clearly in dicate that the problem areas in this particular aspect of the program have been less than one would normally expect from any given in itia tive that was as in novative as this one was.

Their upgrading of the equipment in the commun ities, their preven tative educational programs in the commun ities, their preventative ins pection programs in the communities and their capital inv estments and equipment that was necessary in the program in the area have all shown that this is obviously a priority area with the Minister and I believe is justifiably a priority area because it is an area of great need. I don't mean to belittle any of the efforts in any other part of the prov in ce that have been done in this program; however, I think I can speak best of that which has been done in the north.

I know that in fact the efforts have paid off and I know that the Minister does not intend to rest upon his record in respect to this but he's goi ng to continue to develop this type of program until such a time as he is satisfied and the people of the north are satisfied that there is a first­ class program fully in place and fully functioning. I think we're well on the way to that sort of program.

If one looks through the Annual Reports and think it's a matter that should be put on the record because we are quick to put on the record areas where we think the Minister has been less than forceful in his action and where we think he has taken the wrong step. So let's put on the record as strongly, and as well, when we believe he has acted very well in respect to a problem.

We see, if we look under the Table No. 6 which is In specti ons Conducted under The Fire Preventions Act that in all cases we see a great impr ovement in the number of ins pections, the number of re-i ns pections, the number of requirements for the remo val or correction of hazards and in fact almost a doubling or not quite a doubling of the hazards removed. Those hazards are those hazards which create fires and which lead to the loss of life, inju ry and property. So I think that the Minister should be commended for that. If we look throughout the whole

section under The Fire Preventions Act and under the office of the Fire Commissioner, we will find that in fact great progress has been made. I've commended the Minister, I wish as well to commend the Minister's staff because he di dn't do it alone. He obviously has good staff working with him in this area as he does throughout his department. I don't mean to take away from any of the other staff by givi ng special commendation to this staff.

I just think that it's a combination of a priorization of a problem area and a combination of good staff and it's shown the type of results that can be done and can be accomplished when one puts a priority on a certain problem. We will suggest from time to time that sort of priority be put on other problems we have and we will continue to do so but I think this is an example area and I don't want to drag the committee out commending the Minister; it's not my usual practice and I know that I might be emba rrassing him In this regard, I don't mean to but I think that we should be fair.

Having said that, there are a numb er of questions, not criticisms. Oh, there is one criticism and it's a minor criticism albeit but a criticism nonetheless. The Minister has just given to my colleague, the Member for Logan, a report which is called "The Safe Use of Solid Fuel Appliances" put out by the Manitoba Department of Labour and Man power and I di rect his attention to Page 9(

a) and I believe it might also be on Page 9 where it's recommended that asbestos material be used as a backing for clearance between a flue pipe and protected combustible construction around ducts. So that I think that the Minister should take a l ook at that and see if the recommendation of asbestos is in fact in keeping with the latest in formation that is available to us concerning the hazards of asbestos. I know it's mentioned in the report that there are several different types of asbestos, asbestos millboard; in one instance, it's asbestos cement board, in one in stance it's cellular asbestos.

I think the millboard and the cement board might be approved uses, I'm not going to comment as to the advisability of approving those materials that go into the houses. I'm not certain about cellular asbestos though and I'd ask the Minister to check in to that because it may be an area that has escaped the attention of the department. The Mi nister being the Mi nister respons i ble for Workplace Safety and Health Divis ion, havi ng all the in formation on asbestos ava ilable to him, may wish to take that under adv isement.

I would hope he would be able to report back to us as to the acceptability of that material and the appropriateness of suggesting that material be used, but that is a very minor criticism when taken into consideration the other congratulations which we have given the Minister. Last year, the Minister ind icated that the branch proposed to establish a training site in Thompson and to carry out practical fire training. I had asked him if he can update us as to the activities in respect to the development of that training site and the activities of those persons in that training site since it has been developed. MR.

MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the completion date of the facility is early this year; now that's in the next month or two. The centre is si tuated on approximately eight acres of ground which will be provided with a burn house for practical training for up to 25 candidates at one particular time. We feel that we are going to run a very minimum of 10 courses this year which will in volve 15 0 candidates for that course. Now those courses aren't firmed up but that's what I' ve been led to believe is the minimum that will go through that site this year. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr . Chairperson .

The Minister also indicated in last year's Estimates that a 1100

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 lot of the activity that was being done in Northern Manitoba was done under the Northlands Agreement and as we know the Northlands Agreement is going to expire in March of this year, I believe, and we've had this dis cussion with the Mi nis ter before in respect to other matters but I'd like to examine the expira tion of this pr ogram , the Northlands Agreement, in respect to the fire training programs which are very inno vative and very im portant.

Can the Min ister give us the specific assurance that he gave us in a general sort of way a couple of days ago that programs under the Northlands Agreement that are currently being conducted under the Office of the Fire Commissioner will be extended and will continue on uninterrupted even if the Northlands Agreement is not ratified by the expiry date of March 31, 198 1? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the fire training is provided by the Fire Commissioner's Office, funded out of there. The equipment was cost shared with the Federal Government.

I think the Federal Government - and I'm not going to negotiate at the table here - but I think it's fair to say they would be hard- pr essed to try and not include that type of continuation of funding under the new agreement. As we've said before, the major issues facing the negotiators at the table at this particular time is how in fact to have an extension if in fact the agreement is not signed and that includes of course the carrying on of a program that's now in place. So I do not have any basic fears that the federal portion of this particular program will be withd rawn in any way, shape or form. MR.

COWAN: I'm not going to ask the obvious hypothetical question, what if the Mini ster's non fears were not realized? However, I just want to point out th e im portance of the Northlands Agreement in respect to the act ivities of this department in Northern Manitoba, again being somewhat parochial in the matter, but that there were a great number of inspections carried out under the Northlands Ag reement, tha t th ere were a gr eat numb er of educational training activities carried out under the Northlands Agreement. I think that list is worthy of reading off.

There were 91 community comm ittees or councils that held meetings, 26 meetings of fire departments and 24 miscellaneous meetings for a total of - and I'm doing this very very quickly - approximately 500 to 600 persons in attendance. There were 11 4 consultations of government at all levels; there were 98 consultations with fire chiefs; four with fir e prevention officers; thr ee with fir e service instructors and three more with school or school division officials, held under the provision of the t;lorthlands Ag reement and again that was several hundred persons who were in attendance at those meetings.

There 30 fire department training sessions; 39 fire protection surveys and 11 pumper tests that were done under this particular agreement, the Northlands Ag reement. Thos e are all very admirable pr ograms and we hope to see them continue. So even if the Federal Government were to not live up to the responsibility and that's always a possi bility; we can't rule it out entirely.

I do hope that the Mi ni ster can give us a commitment that they will maintain that level of activity because it is so very important to an area like Northern Manitoba that has to be brought up to date, where you have to correct some hi storical injustic es and some hi storical problems that had not been corrected in the past. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the fire training will in fact continue because it is funded out of the Fire Comm issioner's Office.

The hypothetical question as to what I would do if the Federal Government said no, as a man who has negotiated a fair amount in his li fe, I found it's not to your advantage to make public what your alternate position would be. The people across the table sometimes feel then that they can negotiate in a different vein, so my position today is that there is no ulti mate posit ion. Things shall continu e, peri od, bottom line, end of conversa tion. MR. COWAN: That's exactly why I suggested wasn't going to ask a hypothetical question . MR. MacMASTER: But you asked it. MR.

COWAN: ... but I guess I left the door open too much in that case. I have no further questions and again I very seldom end when I should. I have no further questions but I do just wish to once again congratulate the Mi nister and his department and the many people in Northern Manitoba who have worked very hard to make this program as successful as it has been. I hope that the Mini ster on my behalf will extend those congratulations to those individuals when he gets an opportunity. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: I just have a couple of questions here to the Mi nister.

The alternative regulations that he is working on, could he give us a time frame when he figures that this will be in place, when he will have these regulations? MR. MacMASTER: The best we can tell th e Member for Logan is another two to three months. MR. JENKINS: I have just one more question that I want to raise with the Mini ster and it deals with the solid fuel appliances themselves. There are many on the market today and there has been complaints.

I'm sure the Minis ter has heard some of the complaints, that some of them are not what they're advertised to be, that they don't seem to come up to the glowing reports that the manufacturers are making of these. Has there been any testing, or is there any testing contemp lated on some of th ese solid fuel appli ances?

If some of the equipment is hazardous, then I think it should be drawn to the attention of the public, and especially since I have been reading and hearing a lot about the equipping of fireplaces with fire safety doors of a glass fabric ated nature - where we hear that water splashing on them or a sudden rush of air, or various other things will cause these things to explode.

I would just like to know if the department is doing any research on this, or has any access to any research that has been done on this and would the Mini ster, if they are doing so, contemplate trying to make the public aware of some of the hazards of some of the solid fuel appli ances that are being put in place. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, the equipment that the Member is talking about should have a GSA 1101

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 stamp on it, or the Un derwriter Laboratories of Canada. Those are the two bodies that should be approving the particular appliance that the member is talking about. MR. JENKINS: Yes, I quite agree with the Minister, but some of the complaints that I have been hearing concerns equi pment that has the Unde rwriter Laboratories sticker, or the Canadian Standards Association sticker on them, especially the ones on the fire door s that are being put in pl ace on fireplaces in order to improve the efficiency of the fireplace, so that you're not having all your heat going up the chimney.

This seems to be an area where there are a lot of complaints and evidently there are some accidents happening from some of the fire doors actually exploding un der certain circumstances, and I wondered if the department is looking into that matter. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, we are aware of some of the alleged deficiencies. We're also aware that in a some cases, in a large number of cases - and I'm not going to talk about percentages - there is installation problems, that's part of the problem we're facing.

The doors have been brought to our attention and the Underwri ter Labo ratorie s of Canada, right today, are reviewing and reassessing the qu al ity and type of doors that are being permitted to be used on those applia nces, so the Member raises a point that is right today being exam in ed by the Un derwriter Labo ratories of Canada. MR. CHAIRM AN, Morris McGregor (Virden): 2.(c)(1) - pass; 2.(c)(2) - pass; 2.(d)(1) - pass. The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: This might be a suitable time for the Comm ittee to ri se. If we get in to Employment Standards it will be . . . MR.

CHAIRMAN: I'm at the mercy of the Committee and the Mini ster. Committee rise. SUPPL V - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): Committee will come to order. I di rect the honourable members attention to Page 69 of the Main Estima tes, Department of Gov ernment Services, Resolution No. 71, Clause 3, Supply and Services, Item (a)( 1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, we discussed this matter earlier today when I asked the Min ister about where it would be appropriate to dis cuss the restaurants and food catering of the government and he suggested this was the area. I wanted to begin by asking him if he could give us a general outline of which caterers are being utilized by the Provincial Government and Department of Government Services in the various buildings, if he has that breakdown or if he can tell us if this outfit has so many restaurants and this one has so many, etc.

I'm particularly in terested in the operation downstairs and the operation over at the Woodsworth Building. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. WAR NER H. JORGE NSON (Morris): Mr. Chairman, we had passed that item but the specific question that was posed by my honourable friend I can get him that informtion if he'd just bear with us for a moment. In response to the specific question posed by my honourable friend I can tell him that Ritz Foods Ltd., are catering in the Legislative Building, the Manitoba Arch ives Building, the Norqua y Building, the Manitoba Building and the Woodsworth Building.

The contracts for the Legislative Build in g expires on November 11 , 19 82; Mani toba Arch ives Building expires on September 30, 1982; the contract for the Norquay Building expires on September 30, 1982 and the Manitoba Building, September 30, 19 82; and the Woodsworth Building expires at the same time as the contract in the Legislative Building which is November 11, 19 82. FSM Food Services are catering in the High way Services Building and the Robert Fletcher Building and both of those contracts expire at the end of September, 19 82. S.

Martin caters at the Beausejour Provincial Office Building and that contract is carried on from month to month. Tastee Bakery are caterers in the Portage la Prairie Provincial Office Building and that contract expires in October of 1983. Larry De Vries at the Dauphin Provincial Office Building, the contract expiring in June, 19 82 and Beaver Foods Ltd. at the Brandon Provincial Office Building and that contract is carried on a monthly basis. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, just to clarify then, do I un derstand then that Ritz Foods is in fact the caterers in this building and the Woodsworth Building and the Norqua y Building? MR. JORGENSON: Correct. MR.

DOERN: What I wanted to say to the Mi nister is that I think there was a feeling in the past that it might be a good idea to try to have one or more caterers in the downtown core area, those being the three major buildings with the most employees, and that the idea might be that people might have a greater variety of choice and possibly - I know this would appeal to the Mini ster - that this would be competition and it might elicit some rivalry and some benefit in terms of price or quality or variety.

So I simply mention that to the Mini ster, that by allowing somebody to bid in a block, or to bid the Legi?lature and the Woodsworth Building in one block and then allow them to also have a series of other contracts, that this point may have been lost. I wanted to tell the Mini ster that I suppose we would all have personal observations on the various restaurants. I try to occasionally go over to the Woodsworth Building to see how things are, but basically like most members I tend to eat here when we're in the area in between sessions as well as during sessions.

The restaurant which used to be open a number of nights during the week for the convenience of members is now basically closed other than on Monday nights when it's open for the convenience of the New Democratic Caucus so that 1102

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 we can plot the overthrow of the government in relative quiet and after a good meal. While we're rocking around the clock, we may start working around the clock pretty soon. Mr. Chairman, my observation on the restaurant here is that the food quality hasn't been too bad, it has more or less held.

I certainly find that in terms of the quality of the service, I don't know if it's a batch of new emplo yees or just what the problem is, but it seems like a lot of the staff - I'm talking now partly evening staff that works Monday night and partly daytime staff - doesn't seem to really know the business, doesn't seem to really have any training.

I suppose this is different from the other restaurants which are all buffet-style; nearly all the other restaurants, if not all of them, are simply through the line, through the soup line and pick up your own food and go to the cashier but here, of course, there is service. I don't know whether the people are untrained or whether the wages are not being paid, but I have to say to the Mini ster that some of the people working have no idea of what it is to serve a meal.

I say that, I think, with some knowledge of the subject because I worked for four summers on the CPR in the dining cars and at Lake Louise as a waiter, so when I see somebody who's waiting on tables I think I have an idea of whether or not they know what they're doing, or whether they haven't the faintest idea. 1 simply have to say that some of the staff I've seen recently are totally untrained and have no conception of what they're doing .

I wanted to ask the Min ister about the shift that was made a year or two ago in terms of the Maitr e d' of our restaurant, who was formerly, I suppose, paid by the Department of Government Services and then was put onto the staff of Ritz and, no sooner had that happened, when he was fired. I .find this somewhat distressing in that the man in question, Mr. Burton, appeared to be doing an excellent job. I get some support from my col leagues, a lot of support I'm told from my own backbench, about the job this gentleman was doing .

He had probably some 15 to 20 years in the business, most of it at the Winnip eg Chamber of Commerce, where he is now apparently emplo yed again and also had worked at the Winnip eg Inn and probably other places so he had a professional backg ro und. He had a fine personality; he was a friendly person, imma culately groomed. I am now getting support from my friend, the ML A for - I don't know, are you the ML A for St. Johns yet? -(I nterject ion)- The future ML A for St. Johns. I have to tell the ML A for Gla dstone that Cons ervatives are as rare in St.

Johns as New Democrats are in Gladstone, so that he understands the lie of the land. So, Mr. Chairman, I say that I was somewhat taken aback. I was disappointed when the government replaced or turfed out John Jaschinski from the Woodsworth Building and I was disappointed when they replaced Mr. Burton because things seemed to be okay there. There was apparently some profit being made in the restaurant in the sense that the profit from liquor sales accrued to the government.

There was no rent being paid there and for four years or more the gentleman in question ran the restaurant, took the bookings, seated people, talked to people, trained the staff, ran the bar and the cash register and set the tables and helped wait on tables and worked at night and appeared to be doing a totally satisfactory job; then all of a sudden he is axed, I guess at age 55 which starts to get a bit dicey, and I think this was rather shabby treatment.

So I just wonder whether the Min ister feels that he can justify this action or whether he had any say, or anyone in the department had any say, or whether the decision was sealed sometime ago when the government decided to th row this job into the Ritz cont ract as oppo sed to being a gov ernment empl oyee working with Ritz. Maybe it was sealed at that time and once that decision was taken it was only a matter of time before the gentleman would be repl aced . So I ask the Mini ster if he ha s any comment on that firing . MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, the contract that my honourable friend speaks of is one that had expired in, I believe it was March of 19 80. At that time a new caterer had taken over the job in both the Wbodsworth Building and here in the Legislative Building. If my honourable friend will recall the winning caterer was the one that had tendered on both these buildings. Prior to that time the maitre d' that my friend speaks of, was an empl oyee of the government whose term expired in March of 19 80.

We found the anomalous situation where an emp loyee of the government was giving the direction and providing the instructions to the staff who were not our empl oyees but were emp loyees of the caterer. When the new caterer came in we advised them of this situation and asked them to make whatever arrangements th ey felt suited them best. The situation where a government emplo yee on staff of the go vernment was prov iding di rection to the caterer staff just did not seem to be one that was suitable and one that was workable, so the caterer hired Mr.

Burton for a period of time and then for reasons that are known to the caterer, decided to do without his services. It wasn't a question of the government, as my Honourable friend has attempted to state, the government axing anybody, it was a question of his contract running out and the arrangement being made with a new caterer. My friend will have to ask the new caterer the reasons why he did not continue Mr. Burton's employment. Becaus e he had the contra ct, it was his responsibility. MR.

DOERN: Well, I would like to ask the Min ister in the new arrangement which was made by his predecessor, whether the government felt that the person in question was doing an adequate job or whether th ey ha d any com plaints about his performance and whether they also attempted to protect his position by making his position a condition of the new catering contract, because a contract, I guess. can be set up or cut or sliced in a hundred different ways.

So I simply ask whether the government was satisfied with his record for the past three to four years and whether they tried to protect his position by negotiating his position with the new caterer. MR. JORGENSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, for reasons that I have explained, and I think are valid reasons and as my Honourable friend know those events occurred before I assumed the responsibility for this 1103

Tuesday, 24 February, 1981 portfolio, but the situation where a government employee was giving direction to a caterer who had won a contract is one that was a bit dicey, and though we offered or asked the caterer to use his own discretion as to whether or not he wanted to employ Mr. Burton - and he did for a period of time - now the reasons why the caterer decided to dis pense with his services, as I say, is a question that will have to be asked the caterer. I am not aware of the reasons for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) - pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I just conclude on this point and say that it is not uncommon for there to be I think, work ing arrangements that involve civil servants and the private sector. I mean we have all kinds of government inspectors who work with the pr ivate sector every da y. Th ey make safety inspections; they make health inspections and so on, and so on; that's not uncommon.

When the government is hiring a firm of architects, such as Government Services would do, the pr ivate architects have to constantly be in touch with the Client Department to satisfy them and with the Department of Government Services as well, so I don't find it unusual or peculiar for there to be a working arrangement between a civil servant and a private firm. I think that is an everyday commonplace occurrence. I simply say that I think that the position could have been protected