British Columbia Hansard — Tuesday, March 5, 2002

H0305pm-20

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

3rd Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Tuesday, March 5, 2002 Afternoon Sitting Volume 3, Number 20 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 3RD SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Committee Clerk................................................................................................................ ......................................................... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. Internet: www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard

Party Standings: Liberal 76; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 1. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind L) .................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) ..........................................

West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (L).........................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon. Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L).......................................................................

Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon. Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................

Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon. Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ......................................................

Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon. Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon.

John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon. Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)...........................................................................

Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Tuesday, March 5, 2002 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 1497 Introduction and First Reading of Bills Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Amendment Act, 2002 (Bill 7).................................................. ...................... 1497 Hon. S.

Santori Medical Services Arbitration Act (Bill 9)...................................................................................... ........................................................ 1498 Hon. C. Hansen Statements (Standing Order 25B) Retail sales in B.C. ........................................................................................................... ........................................................................ 1498 B.

Suffredine Breast Cancer Awareness Day.................................................................................................... ........................................................... 1499 I. Chong Post-Polio Awareness Month ..................................................................................................... ........................................................... 1499 R. Stewart Oral Questions Advocacy role of Mental Health Minister of State............................................................................... ............................................... 1499 J.

MacPhail Hon. G. Cheema J. Kwan Trans-Canada Highway between Alberta border and Revelstoke ................................................................................................... 1501 W. McMahon Hon. J. Reid Disability benefits for employed disabled persons.............................................................................. ............................................... 1501 V. Anderson Hon. M.

Coell Tabling Documents .............................................................................................................. .................................................... 1502 Report of the Crown Proceeding Act, 2000-01 Public Service Benefit Plan Act annual report, 2000-01 Committee of Supply Estimates: Office of the Premier On vote 9: office of the Premier.............................................................................................. .......................................................... 1502 J. MacPhail Hon. G. Campbell J.

Kwan Point of Order ................................................................................................................. .......................................................... 1523 Hon. G. Collins J. Kwan

1497 TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 The House met at 2:03 p.m. Introductions by Members K. Stewart: It's my privilege today to introduce the chief executive officer of Maple Ridge, Mr. Bob Robert- son, who unfortunately will be leaving Maple Ridge for a new position in the city of Hamilton as their chief executive officer. Will the House please make him wel- come. Hon. G. Campbell: H o n. S p e ak e r, I am p l e as e d t o say that today in the Legislature I met a national celeb- rity of significant merit. On entering my caucus meet- ing today, I ran into none other than Marg Delahunty.

Having met with Marg now, I can tell you that her so- cial commentary is matched only by her sense of fash- ion. Hon. C. Clark: Gee, I'm sorry I missed that. Today I would like to introduce two people that I had lunch with — as interesting but certainly not as well dressed as Ms. Delahunty: His Excellency Wade Armstrong, the high commissioner for New Zealand, who is making an official visit to British Columbia. The high commissioner was accompanied by Tony O'Brien, who is the consul general of New Zealand in Vancou- ver. I hope the House will make them welcome. Hon. J.

Reid: It's my privilege to make an introduc- tion today. Unfortunately, this person isn't in the House. It's the birth of my first grandson. Congratula- tions to my son, Sean, and his wife, Grace — and add a new face to the Reid clan. [1405] Hon. G. Hogg: I'll ask the House to join me in wel- coming a delightful student from my alma mater, Semiahmoo Secondary. John Gratto is here with con- stituency assistant extraordinaire, Verna Logan. Would the House please make them welcome. H. Bloy: It gives me a real honour today to stand in the House and only as a proud father.

I would like to introduce and ask you to make welcome my daughter, Katie, a first-year university student at the University of Victoria. J. Nuraney: I have great pleasure today to intro- duce a group of students who are visiting us from the Ailanthus secondary school in Burnaby — a wonderful group who are visiting to learn about the history and the procedure of the House. I'd ask the members to please make them welcome. M. Hunter: I t ' s a p l e a s u r e f o r m e t o i n t r o d u c e a person who's well known to me — my greatest fan in the House: my wife, Joy. Will the House please make her welcome.

Introduction and First Reading of Bills FREEDOM OF INFORMATION AND PROTECTION OF PRIVACY AMENDMENT ACT, 2002 Hon. S. Santori presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Free- dom of Information and Protection of Privacy Amendment Act, 2002. Hon. S. Santori: I move that this bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. S. Santori: Mr.

Speaker, Bill 7 amends the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act to respond to the special committee of the Legislature that reviewed the act from October 1997 to July 1999 and to address compliance and cost issues. The amendments in Bill 7 will allow the informa- tion and privacy commissioner more flexibility in meeting operational responsibilities; clarify FOI request requirements; make the addition of public bodies automatic; require further legislative reviews of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act; clarify the

definitions of personal information and pro- vide the ability to disregard frivolous and vexatious requests; require the publication of a personal informa- tion directory — the first of its kind in Canada; allow the adjustment of response times to accommodate ap- peal processes before the information and privacy commissioner; require public bodies to issue a fee statement before providing a service; and permit public bodies to require a deposit to be paid.

The changes in Bill 7 are accepted by stakeholders and provide immediate improvements to the legisla- tion and response to the legislative committee's rec- ommendations. It will set the stage for further amend- ments in ensuing legislative sessions, resulting from a comprehensive operational review of the act and the need to provide a solid and evolving foundation for electronic government and electronic commerce. It will address compliance and cost-reduction is- sues and recognize and facilitate compliance with re- cent budgets.

I move that Bill 7 be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. [1410] Bill 7 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

1498 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 MEDICAL SERVICES ARBITRATION ACT Hon. C. Hansen presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Medi- cal Services Arbitration Act. Hon. C. Hansen: I move that the bill intituled Medical Services Arbitration Act be read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. C.

Hansen: The previous government of Brit- ish Columbia entered into an agreement that provided for an arbitration process to resolve competing inter- ests of the government of the province of British Co- lumbia and the British Columbia Medical Association concerning compensation increases for doctors in this province. The arbitration resulted in an interim decision for p h y s i c i a n c o m p e n s a t i o n t h a t c a m e d o w n o n F e b r u a r y 8. Phase 1 of the interim decision provides for fees and on-call services. These two items alone are estimated to cost over $250 million annually.

Our government is prepared to honour the spirit of the interim decision. The problem with this decision is that the arbitrator did not address structural problems in our health care sys- tem that are undermining patient care. The interim award also suggests further arbitration decisions on a number of other aspects of physician compensation, which have the potential to require the government to pay significant additional funds each year to doctors for services they are providing to British Columbians. Our government values doctors.

We need to attract and retain doctors to give patients the health care that they depend on. We need to ensure that we are provid- ing an attractive and competitive quality of life for our health care professionals, particularly in remote and rural parts of this province. But it is clear from this re- cent arbitration process that binding-interest arbitra- tion as a tool to resolve physician compensation issues is unduly risky in the power to impact the province's fiscal responsibilities to the public.

By signing on to binding arbitration, government forfeits its responsibility to maintain control and bal- a n c e i n t h e f i s c a l m a t t e r s o f t h e p r o v i n c e o n b e h a l f o f British Columbians. It is also clear that the arbitration process perpetuates a dysfunctional relationship be- tween the government and the province's doctors that does not support appropriate and effective relations among the government, doctors, taxpayers and pa- tients.

The Medical Services Arbitration Act, which I'm introducing today, will remove specific sections and portions of sections that we find in the agreements that exist between the association and the government. The introduction of this legislation marks a further step in efforts by our government to work with doctors to reform the health care system, to help make health care dollars work for patients and to make health care sustainable in British Columbia.

By working with doc- tors and bringing our valued health care professionals to the decision-making table, we can save and renew health care and put patients first. Hon. Speaker, I move that this bill be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Bill 9 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) RETAIL SALES IN B.C. B. Suffredine: On the weekend I became aware of the latest retail sales numbers and economic figures in both Canada and the U.S. South of the border, an eco- n o m i c r a l l y o n W a l l S t r e e t b e g a n o n F r i d a y a n d a p - pears to be continuing. Sales in a number of sectors in the American economy have improved significantly. These results are being hailed as an indication of strong economic growth and end the fears of a prolonged re- cession. Even the Federal Reserve chairman, Alan Greenspan, has signalled that he expects an economic recovery in the near future.

Here at home the Bank of Canada governor, David Dodge, has predicted that an economic recovery could be here by the end of the year. [1415] Well, Mr. Speaker, this recovery may be sooner than we all think. Retail sales in British Columbia are up significantly. Retail is our largest private sector em- ployer. It employs one in eight British Columbians. It shows no signs of decreasing. Since the beginning of the year, retail sales are up more than 5 percent over the same time last year. This is well above the Cana- dian national average.

Part of the reason for this retail sales boom is attributable to income tax cuts. British Columbians in the two lowest brackets pay the lowest income tax rates in Canada. An Hon. Member: More good news. B. Suffredine: More good news. The tax cuts are bringing the forecast benefit to the economy of this province. Much of that extra money in people's wallets is spent in the retail sector. After all, what is more logical than people spending their hard- earned money on goods and services where they live?

Furthermore, our retail sector has become diversi- fied and has weathered the restructuring of the sector over the past two decades with success. Niche retailing is booming in the province, with a wide array of shop- ping experiences unique to British Columbia. Our tour- ism industry is expanding rapidly. With more money in people's pockets, retail sales will continue to be strong as we prepare for more prosperous and fiscally responsible times ahead. This is the first sign that a new era of prosperity is emerg- ing.

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1499 BREAST CANCER AWARENESS DAY I. Chong: On March 5, 2002, the Vancouver Island branch of the Canadian Breast Cancer Foundation held its sixth annual awareness day. It began with a break- fast at 7 a.m., followed by a luncheon at noon where attendees were able to hear special guest speaker and international artist Carole Sabiston speak on her recent experience with breast cancer. These venues also pro- vided an opportunity to find out more information on these related topics.

The goal of awareness day is, after all, about sharing with everyone information about what is happening locally and, most of all, positive and hopeful information about breast cancer. The theme adopted this year is Reach for the Stars: Aim for a Cure. The most recent statistics indicate that breast cancer mortality rates have declined slightly since 1985 and particularly since 1990. Breast cancer incidence has actually risen steadily during the past decade. This is due in part to more effective detection because of the rising number of mammography examinations since the mid-1980s.

While we are heartened by these statistics, there is still much to be done and to improve upon. Every year more than one million women worldwide are stricken with breast cancer. Later this year, from June 4 to 8, Victoria will be host, for the first time ever, to the World Conference on Breast Cancer. An expected 800 to 1,200 delegates from more than 80 countries will gather in Victoria to share ideas and plan action for the eradication of breast cancer around the world. Cancer does not discriminate, no matter the age, no matter the gender, no matter the race or the social or economic background.

This disease affects us all. Even a former MLA, Penny Priddy, brought her very per- sonal circumstance to this Legislature during the pre- vious parliament. We were all touched by her courage to be a breast cancer survivor. T o d a y i n V i c t o r i a w e m a r k a w a r e n e s s d a y f o r breast cancer. I wear my pink ribbon in recognition of and in gratitude for all those people and volunteers w h o c o n t i n u e t o s u p p o r t a n d o f f e r a l l o f u s s o m u c h more to hope for. POST-POLIO AWARENESS MONTH R.

Stewart: March 2002 has been proclaimed Post- Polio Awareness Month by the government of British Columbia. Thousands of Canadian who survived the disease of polio as children now live with post-polio syndrome. They struggle with a long list of symptoms, including excessive fatigue; new or increased muscle weakness; muscle or joint pain; reduced endurance; respiratory difficulties; difficulty swallowing and sleeping; and sensitivity to cold, anaesthetics and medication. While polio has been largely eradicated in North America, more than a dozen countries worldwide are known to have active polio cases.

As a result, Canadi- ans travelling to these countries risk encountering the virus and bringing it back home. Health Canada rec- ommends that residents who have not been vaccinated for polio or who have not had a booster shot in the past ten years should check to see if they need polio vaccine before leaving the country. [1420] One of the goals of the Post-Polio Awareness and Support Society is to make all British Columbians aware of the continued risk and presence of this dis- ease.

Many in this room are aware of the tremendous efforts by many groups, including Rotary Clubs such as my own, across the country and around the world to completely eradicate polio from the Earth in the next couple of years. I'm sure the entire House joins with me in honour- ing the Post-Polio Awareness and Support Society of British Columbia, Rotary International and the many other groups that are working hard on this issue and in wishing them every success in their important work. Oral Questions ADVOCACY ROLE OF MENTAL HEALTH MINISTER OF STATE J.

MacPhail: I want to return to a question the op- position raised two weeks ago with the Minister of Health Services. It related to a letter that I had received and passed on to the Minister of State for Mental Health. Those letters lay out a tragic story of a family looking for an advocate to help them cope with mental illness — and clearly a system that isn't meeting their needs — and how they approached the Premier. Then the Premier passed them off to the Minister of State for Mental Health, who did nothing.

I'd like to ask the Minister of State for Mental Health what training he has in mental health advocacy and what training his staff might have in advocating on behalf of the mentally ill. Hon. G. Cheema: My office has been in touch with this person, and the health authorities have been in touch with this person. I have been in touch with this member's office, and we are doing everything that can be done. Our first intent is to make sure that we provide the best quality of mental health in this province.

Let me remind this member that for the last seven months we have done more for mental health than was done dur- ing the last ten years. As far as my qualifications as a mental health advo- cate are concerned, this member should simply phone the mental health organization in this province. They give her a failing grade. They are giving us a passing grade.

They are saying that we are fulfilling all the p r o m i s e s w e m a d e d u r i n g t h e c a m p a i g n ; t h a t w e a r e fulfilling the mental health plan promised that will improve the quality of life and that will help this pa- tient and many more patients; and that, basically, we are providing quality care and also paying respect to the families and the patients in this province.

1500 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition with a supplementary question. J. MacPhail: I'm not actually sure what the Minister of State is talking about because the family, who we talked with yesterday, has a completely different version. Mental health advocacy is a very, very difficult job. The former advocate conducted problem-solving, me- diation, research and education strategies. She offered independent — and I stress independent — assistance to mental health patients and their families when the relationship with the health system became strained.

In this case, the minister's office, when pushed to action, simply flipped the family back to the system, offering zero — no advocacy and no help. Can the Min- ister of State for Mental Health advise this House if it's common for families to be treated this way by his of- fice? Will he admit that he dropped the ball with this family, and will he now agree to fund an independent mental health advocate? Hon. G. Cheema: Let me just explain to this mem- b e r ag ai n. A s o f J u ne 5 we h av e b e e n ab l e t o d o a l o t more for mental health than she was able to do for the last ten years.

The office of mental health advocate has d o n e a g o o d j o b i n t h e p a s t . W e f u n d a l o t o f m e n t a l health advocates in this province. We are funding up to $2.1 million for various organizations, and they're do- ing an exceptionally good job. [1425] The most important thing for mental health in this province was that a promise made by that government failed three times. Let me say it. Let me make clear to that member again that we made a promise during the cam- paign to fully fund and implement the mental health plan. We made the promise, and we are fulfilling that promise. Mr.

Speaker, let me also explain to her the broken NDP promise for mental health. She made the an- nouncement three times, and that announcement was never fulfilled. I shall read one

article of…. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. The Leader of the Opposition with a further sup- plementary. J. MacPhail: When this government fired the inde- pendent mental health advocate, the Premier said spe- cifically that that minister was going to be the new mental health advocate. He can make all the excuses he likes, but his record speaks for itself, and in this case his record is abysmal. After repeated pleas for help, the Premier told the family that the Minister of State for Mental Health would contact them and provide assis- tance. They never heard from the Minister for Mental Health.

Two weeks ago the family had an ambulance and four police cars on their front lawn. We took this issue directly to the minister himself, and he still did nothing. The family hasn't heard a thing from this so- called advocate. Can the Minister of State for Mental Health tell this House why he ignored this family's plea for help? And will he agree to an audit of the work his office does to advocate on behalf of families, so this drastic, abysmal situation doesn't happen again to any family in this province? Hon. G. Cheema: Let me just explain it to this member again.

First of all, she must stop misleading this House. She is not telling the truth. We have been in touch with this person. Interjection. Mr. Speaker: Hon. member, please temper your comments with parliamentary language. Hon. G. Cheema: I will withdraw the words "not telling the truth," but I will say that this member is still not telling the facts. Let me just explain it to this member. We have been in touch with this family. Let me just explain what we've been able to do for the last seven months. We made a promise to fully fund and implement the mental health plan, and we are fulfilling that promise.

The previous administration broke their promise on mental health. They promised $125 million, and they delivered only $10 million. They promised 30 new day- hospitals for 1,800 patients. Zero were delivered. They promised more community-based psych treatment. Zero was delivered. They promised 2,900 training spaces for rehabilitation; 50 were delivered. Mr. Speaker: Thank you, hon. member. Hon. G. Cheema: The NDP promised respite care… Mr. Speaker: Thank you. Hon. G. Cheema: …for 12,000 families. Zero was delivered. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. G. Cheema: We don't need to learn from her about mental health. J.

Kwan: The minister did not make contact with the family, and he knows it. He did not do his job. In the secret new-era document released yesterday, British Columbians learned, by this government's own admission…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. J. Kwan: British Columbians learned by this new government's own admission that wait-lists will grow, hospital beds will close, and patient care will be com-

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1501 promised. We also learned that this Minister of State for Mental Health has abdicated his responsibility to be an advocate for mental health patients at the cabinet table. Nowhere in the estimates or in the secret Health budget document is there any funding directed for mental health services, other than $15 million in operating costs.

Whatever else patients receive is up to the health boards, who are being forced to cut services — just like education. [1430] Will the Minister of State for Mental Health stand in this House and admit what everyone now knows: that he is washing his hands of mental-health-services patients and their families? Hon. G. Cheema: Let me just explain it to that member now. She should read the stolen document properly. We have made it plain that we will be having $17.8 million in new funding for mental health. We are going to have $15 million for community mental health services in this province.

We are going to have $2 mil- lion for community-based psych treatment. We will be spending over $19.6 million for capital projects for mental health. We are delivering. This will provide more community-based mental health. This will provide the housing for mental health. This will finally deliver what the Premier and our cabi- net promised: the real plan for mental health in this province. We will not fail our patients. We will not cheat our patients. The NDP administration cheated the public on mental health. Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplementary question. J.

Kwan: We know from the estimates book that the $400 million base funding for mental health is now gone. The only thing that is revealed in the secret document that was released yesterday is a $15 million dedication to mental health. We know that this minister's record as the advocate for patients is ineffective. He doesn't bother to phone back the families who are seeking his assistance. T han k s t o t hi s g o v e rnm e nt 's s e c re t b ri e f i ng b o o k s , we now know that he is not an effective advocate at the cabinet table either.

The Minister of State for Mental Health is ignoring the needs of mental health patients at every level. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please, hon. members. Please proceed. Please put your question now. J. Kwan: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister just admit he's not up to the job and commit today to re-fund the independent office of the mental health advocate so that mental health patients and their fami- lies don't have to rely on help solely from an ineffective and incompetent Minister of State for Mental Health? Hon. G. Cheema: She should read the stolen document in the proper way.

It's very clear that we will be spending over $17 million on a new community- based mental health…. We will be spending over $19 million for new capital projects. We have 76 advocates in this House. They are all working for patients. We care about the patients and their families. We made a promise during the campaign, and we are ful- filling that promise with action. We will be spending $125 million in our mental health plan. They failed the patients. We are giving them the due respect and the care they deserve. TRANS-CANADA HIGHWAY BETWEEN ALBERTA BORDER AND REVELSTOKE W.

McMahon: My question is to the Minister of Transportation. As my colleagues know, I have a very dangerous stretch of highway through my constituency from the Alberta border through Revelstoke. Today the provincial and federal governments announced $122 million in new funding for B.C. highways. I would like to address the question to the minister and ask her to tell us how this funding will benefit Columbia River– Revelstoke. [1435] Hon. J. Reid: That

section of highway is extremely important to the economy of British Columbia — an extremely important transportation route. It's proven to be very, very dangerous and to have severe safety concerns with it. As a result, we've made it a priority with the funding. There is joint funding between the federal government and provincial government for national Trans-Canada Highway system projects. The first two projects are on that

section of high- way. There is the Five Mile Bridge project. A very sig- nificant safety concern is being addressed there. The second one is the Victoria Road intersection in the city of Revelstoke. That will alleviate the safety and access issues as well. DISABILITY BENEFITS FOR EMPLOYED DISABLED PERSONS V. Anderson: My question is to the Minister of Human Resources. People in my community and right across the province who have disabilities are concerned about the changes that are coming about in that par- ticular support by the government. They're worrying particularly about those who wish to work full-time.

How will the changes that have happened and will be happening affect their ability, with disabilities, to work full-time? Hon. M. Coell: Many people with disabilities in British Columbia aren't able to work full-time and re- ceive continuous assistance from the province. We're going to do a number of pilot projects that will help develop a strategy for people with disabilities to find employment, whether it be full-time or part-time. In

1502 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 the spring we'll also be changing the earning exemp- tion, where people can earn up to $200 a month and keep that on top of their income assistance. We'll be moving that to $300 per month, allowing them to keep an extra $100. That should help those people working part-time. As I said, the strategies we're going to de- velop will be there around an easy access in and out of income assistance for people with disabilities so they can attempt to work full-time if they can.

If they can work part-time, we'll allow them to keep more money and work with them to find a balance between the two. [End of question period.] Tabling Documents Hon. G. Collins: I have the honour to present the report of the Crown Proceeding Act for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2001, in accordance with

section 15(2) of that act. Hon. S. Santori: I have the honour to present the Public Service Benefit Plan Act annual report for the year ending March 31, 2001. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: I call Committee of Supply. Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; H. Long in the chair. The committee met at 2:39 p.m. ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER (continued) On vote 9: office of the Premier, $49,727,000 (con- tinued). [1440] J. MacPhail: I'm going to continue.

I wasn't going to pursue this questioning much further, but I'm going to pursue it a little bit more in light of the legislation that was tabled today to take away arbitration from the doctors. I'm sure we'll be getting some reaction to that. I won't be discussing the actual legislation, because, of course, that would be inappropriate. What I do want to go back to is to pursue the appointments to the health authorities that we were exploring before the noon break.

I think the Premier misunderstood me when I said what the communication had been to his office about the appointment of physicians to regional health au- thorities. It wasn't a matter of the physicians complain- ing about there not being a designated spot. They were saying that under the previous government, a desig- n a t e d s p o t w a s n ' t e n o u g h . W h a t t h e y w e r e c o m p l a i n - ing about was the absolute bar to being considered as appointments to regional health authorities — that health care professionals and health care workers were going to be barred from appointment.

I'm wondering whether the Premier has had a chance to look at that letter and whether he's had a chance to reply and/or reconsider that point of view. It was received quite a few weeks ago — I think about six weeks ago. I'm just doing this from memory. Hon. G. Campbell: I'm sure the member opposite will appreciate, because I know she spent some time on this, that one of the things we're concerned about in appointments to boards and commissions in the prov- ince is potential or perceived potential for conflict of interest.

One of the things we have said specifically is that someone who is a practising physician within an authority would not be on the health authority board. However, someone with a medical background is not precluded from serving on a board. They, as other Brit- ish Columbians, will be considered, and the boards will be appointed. J. MacPhail: My apologies. I just missed that very last part. Could the Premier just repeat that very last part about how they will be considered? Hon. G. Campbell: Someone with a medical back- ground who is not practising will be considered, as others will be considered.

You are not precluded, be- cause you have a medical background, from serving on a board. There are hundreds of people that have been brought forward as potential people to sit on those boards. They're going through review. The member asked today how quickly that would be done. I would expect that those appointments will be made within the next two weeks in the province. It has been a very detailed review that's gone on. Some- one with a medical background is not precluded from serving on a board. J.

MacPhail: So it is the government's position that someone who is practising — whether that be practis- ing medicine, practising nursing or practising physio- therapy — is precluded through a potential conflict of interest. This actually gives physicians less representa- tion in the new structure than they had before. Is that correct? Hon. G. Campbell: Each region has a medical advi- sory committee. That medical advisory committee re- ports, by bylaw, through to the board. J. MacPhail: Yes, I understand that. That was in place before, as well, but let's be clear.

From '97 through to 2001 or whenever the boards were fired — yes, December of 2001 — physicians had a designated spot on every regional health board and community health council . They said that didn't wo rk fo r them. It wasn't because of the designated position; it was the f a c t t h a t t h e y d i d n ' t h a v e a u t o n o m y o v e r s a y i n g w h o was going to be in that position. Their concern, in writ-

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1503 ing to the Premier, was that they would be precluded from being considered at all. The Premier is now con- firming that their worst fear is true: practising physi- cians will no longer be eligible to sit on any regional health boards, so they have even less representation than they did before. [1445] Hon. G. Campbell: I'll reiterate what I said this morning. Indeed, the boards are not constituency boards. They are boards that are there to make some decisions.

There are a number of ways that physicians can make their contribution, that nurses can make their contribution, that administrators can make their con- tribution to these boards so these decisions are made. Indeed, in terms of physicians, we are in the midst of appointing a new assistant deputy minister specifically with the task of building relationships between our Health Services ministry and the physicians of British Columbia.

There is little concern on behalf of physi- cians that they won't be included — they will be, as will our nurses and our workers throughout the prov- ince — in trying to make sure that we deliver the best possible services to patients in British Columbia. J. MacPhail: I wonder whether that message has been communicated to physicians in whatever organi- zations. Do the physicians now know that they are barred from sitting on the regional health boards? They wrote to the Premier. I'm wondering whether they now know that. Hon. G.

Campbell: I can't answer the question spe- cifically, but we certainly have no trouble dealing with either the BCMA or physicians generally with regard to the structure of the regional health authorities. I should s a y , g e n e r a l l y , t h a t w e h a v e h a d v e r y p o s i t i v e c o m - ments from physicians across the province with regard to the new structure, which will allow us to focus re- sources on patient care. J. MacPhail: I would appreciate knowing. I can actually get the Premier's office a copy of that letter.

My staff can get that, and perhaps the Premier could track down the reply to that letter as we go through estimates so I can see that reply, please. In terms of the relationship with physicians — not to address the legislation that was introduced today; I'm sure we'll have lots of time to discuss that — the Premier said in a question earlier last month that he had met with physician representatives in terms of trying to resolve the implications of the arbitration.

Since that time, what meetings has he had with the physician representatives, bargaining representatives or any physicians dealing with the compensation for physicians? Hon. G. Campbell: None. J. MacPhail: Is the Premier aware of any of his min- isters or staff…? I know that we have to be very careful on these kinds of matters to ask very specific questions. Has anybody in the government met with physician representatives to discuss compensation, subsequent to that meeting that the Premier had and prior to the in- troduction of the legislation today? Hon. G.

Campbell: The Deputy Minister of Health Services and Deputy Minister of Health Planning, who is the same person, has met with representatives of the BCMA. The deputy minister of the Premier has spoken with representatives of the BCMA. We have been very forthright in the concerns that we have, and they have been very forthright in their responses. [T. Christensen in the chair.] J. MacPhail: Sorry, Mr. Chair. Please be aware that I'm happy to have others participate in the debate, and I'll try to look around and see members who wish to participate.

Then between that time and the introduction of this legislation, has the BCMA been aware of the changes that were being contemplated and were introduced today in the legislation? Hon. G. Campbell: The Deputy Minister for Health Services has kept the BCMA informed with regard to the issues that we are dealing with in the arbitration. I don't believe they've seen the details of the legislation. Clearly, the policy issues that we were concerned about are ones that the Minister of Health Services and I have identified in the House. J. MacPhail: What was the reaction? [1450] Hon. G.

Campbell: I'm glad to give general com- ment. The meetings were held with our staff. They were positive on some issues and not as positive on other issues. We will have an opportunity to hear the reaction from the BCMA and other doctors in the prov- ince, I'm sure, over the days ahead. J. MacPhail: We could probably explore these mat- ters later on, but the order of estimates says that this is when we ask these questions. In terms of the timing of this matter, I'm trying to get a sense of how the Premier sees the reform of health care going.

I hear him stand up and say, "We're putting patients first," and I expect that is his sincere commitment, but there's no question that there's worry out there amongst British Columbians about the future of our health care system. Some of the anxiety, though — not all of it, because there is universal anxiety amongst a certain age group about the future of our health care system — has arisen as a direct consequence of the announced changes that this government is making, the unannounced changes that the public finds out about and legislation that's been introduced to change our health care system.

Like these discussions between the BCMA and the govern-

1504 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 ment — I was curious to know the nature of them, whether there was hope that this would bring calm. This is a fairly substantial change in terms of how phy- sicians relate to the government, their paymaster. The timing of this legislation, the timing of refusing them access to regional health boards and the substan- tial changes in the way health care is going to be deliv- ered in this province…. I was just wondering whether the Premier or the Premier's staff or the deputy minis- ters — public officials — discussed that.

What was the feedback on that, on all of this happening at once? A subsequent question to that is: was it discussed in the context that there was some urgency to changing the way physicians determine their compensation? I'll tell you why. Disruption, at the best of time, in our health care system is troubling. I'm curious to know how all of this prevents disruption. That's all. Hon. G.

Campbell: I think, number one, the mem- ber opposite, the medical community and the health community in British Columbia know that our gov- ernment's goal and objectives are to transform the health care system so it starts to meet the needs of pa- tients. One of the things that was clearly on the arbitra- tor's mind — if the member opposite has read the arbi- trator's report — is the effectively dysfunctional rela- tionship that existed between physicians and the gov- ernment over the last decade.

I felt, and I do feel, it's important that physicians know that they are a critical part of our health care system and that we respect the contribution they make. Not just in the time since I've been Premier but prior to being Premier, I've spent a considerable amount of time working with physicians, listening to their concerns and trying to discover ways we could respond that were constructive, useful and thoughtful. There is no question that the changes we have to make in health care are significant.

They're significant, be- c a u s e t h e h e a l t h c a r e s y s t e m a s w e k n o w i t i n B r i t i s h Columbia is simply not sustainable. One of the first groups to identify that was the physicians in British Columbia. One of the first groups to identify the dys- function that existed within the management of the system was the physicians of British Columbia. One of the first groups to tell us that we had to create some accountability in the system was the physicians of Brit- ish Columbia. We have tried to respond to that. I think the issue the member raises is a critical one.

Obviously, we would like to be able to try and say to people: "Believe me." Let me go back. If we could have said, "There will be no changes, and things will just get better," I think, number one, that would have been false, and because it was false we were in a position where we couldn't. It's not that we want the work. It's not that we want to be put in a position where we have to transform the system, but the facts are…. The member, I think, was at the provincial congress with us where we had a very strong presentation from a demographer pointing out the challenges we face in health care.

The member knows, having been a Minister of Health herself, that these are not challenges that are just here in the prov- ince of British Columbia. They're across the country. [1455] What we've tried to do is build some accountability into the system. What we've tried to do is build some responsiveness to patients' needs into the system, which recognizes the vast size of the province of British Columbia, the variety of geography and dispersion of population. What we're also trying to do is give the people of our province a sense of the challenge we face in health care.

Health care today takes 41 percent of the provincial budget. While I recognize that there won't always be agreement on how we try and meet those challenges, I believe there has been a significant effort to transform how government deals with health care, so that we do focus on patient needs. I can tell you that whether I'm travelling to Prince George or to Vanderhoof, whether I'm going to Fort St. James or to Creston, people have told me for some time that there was a challenge. There was a blueprint laid out for health care re- form in 1991. Unfortunately, it was not followed.

Therefore, we still have intermediate, long-term and home care deficiencies in the province. We still have mental health care deficiencies in the province. We still have physician deficiencies in the province in terms of the distribution around the province. We are going to do everything we can to transform that system.

We will do it with our nurses, with our doctors, with our ad- ministrators, with our community leaders and with our patient groups in this province, so that as we move forward — I certainly can't guarantee there will be no mistakes — we will make progress towards better pa- tient care for British Columbians. J. MacPhail: Yes, I was there for that very interest- ing presentation. I think the Premier's probably refer- ring to the presentation by David Baxter of Urban Fu- tures, I think his company is called. It was very inter- esting.

The Premier at the end of the provincial congress sort of gave a: "I hope Roy Romanow is going to listen t o D a v i d B a x t e r i n t e r m s o f … . " T h a t ' s a s s u m i n g M r . Baxter's presentation led to…because costs were grow- ing all the time, that meant — ergo — that health care was unsustainable and that somehow Mr. Romanow needed to have that message put to him. I actually went back and accessed some of the in- formation available in the Ministry of Finance and B.C. Stats about sustainability of health care.

Actually, I was curious to have this discussion with the Premier about why his view is that it's unsustainable in terms of per- centages of GDP, health care costs as a percentage of GDP, and the trends across the country about health c a r e a s a p e r c e n t a g e o f G D P . I t i s t r u e t h a t i n c e r t a i n sectors of the country, as governments dramatically cut back on health care, they then had to increase funding for health care in subsequent years, but on average, health care spending as a percentage of GDP was rela- tively flat.

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1505 That's true of British Columbia, as well, with one exception, and that was starting in the year 2000 when the previous government put in massive funding in- creases to take care of factors such as hospital expan- sion, etc. That was the exception. Is the Ministry of Finance doing that kind of work? Has the Premier's office asked the Ministry of Finance to answer questions about sustainability of health care? Has the Premier or his staff or anybody in this office made a request to anybody in the Ministry of Finance?

The question could be — I wouldn't be surprised if the Premier actually said this: "Give us some numbers to show that health care is unsustainable." Or maybe just the question of what the real determination of sustain- ability of health care is. Hon. G. Campbell: First, the increase in health care spending in British Columbia from 2000-01 to 2002-03, over two years, is actually $2.2 billion. As health ex- penditures were growing at 13 percent, our economy was basically flat.

In British Columbia, indeed, addi- tional dollars were added to the health care ministry as we went through. [1500] The member opposite is probably aware of the fact that finance ministers meet across the country. Finance ministers themselves — I can't recall which ministry the member opposite was holding at the time — from all of the provinces, actually, asked for a report to be done on sustainability of health care. I think it was pre- sented…. Interjection. Hon. G. Campbell: Well, I'm sorry to hear that.

Having said that, because of her interest in public issues, I'm sure she would be aware of the fact that the finance ministers across the country had asked for this report. It was prepared and brought forward. There has been no question that the increase of health expendi- tures is going to continue. I think everyone recognizes that. We have to look at different ways of delivering services. We have an aging population. We have grow- ing and increasingly expensive technologies, both hard and soft technologies and pharmaceutical technologies.

What we want to try to do is take advantage of all those benefits for the needs of patients. We are going to see investments in telemedicine so that you actually can connect a patient to the caregiver or the profes- sional they need in a direct and responsive way and in a timely manner. We are going to take advantage of the regimes that are available to us to improve the quality of patient care. W h e n y o u l o o k a t t h e c o s t s w e f a c e , I b e l i e v e t h a t this is one of the most important generational shifts we are going to have to come to grips with in government.

Human resources are the critical component in the de- livery of health care. I don't hold this member responsible — only for about ten years of this. There is a vacant building in Vancouver that was initiated in 1983 by a very, very previous government. That building is still not com- plete. That building by itself, without doctors and nurses and health care providers in it, does nothing for the health care system. What it's done is cost taxpayers literally tens of millions of dollars with no benefit to patients. What we have said we want to do is make sure the resources we have focus on patients.

I can tell you as a patient myself — and I assume the member opposite — that if you're sick, you'd like to visit with a health pro- fessional. You'd like to hear from a doctor. I can tell you, there is no end of the positive stories you hear about nurses and the contribution they make to indi- vidual health care in the province. W e h a v e m a d e a d e c i s i o n a s a g o v e r n m e n t t o p u t resources behind the human resource — behind the caregivers, the physicians, the nurses and the people that make the health system work. The fact of the mat- ter is that those people are in demand.

Today we have top salaries for nurses. Today we are going to be in a position where our doctors are going to be compen- sated at the top level in the country. Our health em- ployees have the top compensation in the country. We have built the infrastructure now in terms of the hu- man resource that says we can move forward. I believe that helps to stabilize the system. At the same time we're doing that, we have to ask to those people: how do we move forward so we're meeting the needs of patients?

How can we deliver services differ- ently so that we start to watch as wait-lists reduce and as you as a patient get the care you need in a timely way? That's the initiative we've undertaken. I do not believe, in terms of the dollars that have been put in place, we've seen from finance ministries from across the country, as well as our own, that health care is sustainable.

We know ourselves that you cannot c o n t i n u e t o i n c r e a s e h e a l t h c a r e s p e n d i n g a t 1 0 t o 1 4 percent with an economy that is growing at 1 or 2 per- cent and say to people with any kind of honesty that that's sustainable in the long term. People still want to have other services. They still want policing services, education services, transportation services, human resource services and community services. We can't continue to consume as much as we have of the dollar from health care spending.

We have to look at how we can deliver those services in a more cost-effective way, and that's what we intend to do. J. MacPhail: I understand the need to compare public health expenditures with government expendi- tures. Maybe the Finance ministry has already done this work. If one actually compares public health care expenditures as a percentage of GDP, I'm sorry to tell the Premier that it's less than 8 percent. It fluctuates between 6.5 and 8 percent of GDP. That's been constant throughout the eighties and nineties. [1505] I'm sure the Ministry of Finance has that informa- t i o n a v a i l a b l e .

H e r e ' s m y c o n c e r n . I f h e a l t h c a r e i s n ' t sustainable… Does the Premier really mean health care

1506 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 with public expenditure isn't sustainable — that some- how if it doesn't come out of the public purse and is distributed equitably and according to need and in- come, then that's okay. That means it's good to stop that kind of lack of sustainability, but it's okay to say that the expenditures on health care can come out of the private pocket, and that's fine. I don't think people in British Columbia wake up and say: "Oh, damn. I've got breast cancer. Well, that's my problem." I don't think people create health care needs. I simply don't.

I know there's some trend — I happen to believe that the Premier himself doesn't be- lieve in this trend — t h a t o n l y h e a l t h c a r e p r o b l e m s that aren't self-induced should be paid for. Well, that's a slippery slope — right? — getting down that the pub- lic will only pay for health care costs that aren't due to lifestyle, for instance. God forbid that we go down that slippery slope.

What I see in the trend of this government's think- ing in saying that the health care system isn't sustain- able is that what they're really saying is the part of the public health system that we're going to distribute ac- cording to need rather than income isn't sustainable. I t ' s o k a y t o h a v e a h e a l t h c a r e s y s t e m w h e r e y o u c a n pay private dollars for a needed health care service, but the public purse isn't going to pay for that.

I don't see any other way of interpreting it, frankly, unless the Premier is saying that the lack of sustainability is be- cause people are abusing the system. Hon. G. Campbell: I want to be very, very explicit on this. The lack of sustainability is because of the po- litical imposition of systems that do not meet the needs of patients. They meet other needs than patient needs. I'm not going to deal with the example that the member across the way used, because I don't think these things are frivolous. The fact of the matter is that if someone has cancer, that person wants service.

I've talked to cancer patient after cancer patient in this province who has said to me: "Excuse me, Mr. Camp- bell, but the health care system is failing me. It is failing my mother. It is failing my father. It's failing my chil- dren." Our responsibility is to listen to what that per- son says and say to them: "Let's see how we can have a publicly funded system that actually meets your needs." Wouldn't that be a change — to put patients at the head of the list? That's what we're going to do.

There are British Columbians today who, because our public system has not responded to their needs, are required to use their personal resources to get the care that they need. You know what? They'll go anywhere to get it. They'll go south of the border. They'll go east of the border. They'll go wherever they need to go to get the care they need. W h a t w e w a n t t o d o i s h a v e a p u b l i c l y f u n d e d health care system that thinks about those patients, whether they're living in Smithers or in Saanich. We want those people to know that we're thinking about those patients.

We know that the connection between patients and care is actually the caregiver — the doc- tors and the nurses and the people in the system. We're trying to find ways that we can close that distance be- tween patients and those people as well. I will assume that the member opposite was not suggesting that I said it's people who are causing the problem. It's the system that's not responding to the needs of patients and people in this province that has created the problem.

Our job is to change the system so that patients actually do get the care they need in the communities where they're living, so that children get the care they need in the communities where they're living. I think those are the things that everyone in this assembly, regardless of their political party, are actu- ally committed to. What I believe everyone should un- derstand is that the costs of the health care system are expanding rapidly. The member opposite is correct. I don't think the 6.5 percent is correct; it's significantly higher than that.

The challenge that we face — and her government, as well as our government, has been dealing with this — is to recognize that if you talk with Canadians, they will say to you that one of the primary services they want is health care. All of the Premiers have gone to the federal government and said: "We need you to reignite the partnership that you used to have on health care.

We need you to contribute some of the dollars that you take out of Canadians' pockets back to create the sup- port you need for the health care system." [1510] Having said that, we still believe that you're going to have to change the delivery methods we have, whether it's for aboriginal Canadians — which is an issue across the country that we've raised every time we've met as Premiers — or whether it's for people living in rural and remote Canada.

We want to provide those, but we should all understand there is one agency that is constitutionally responsible for deliver- ing health services in this country, and that's the pro- vincial government. We intend to do that, and we have to do that in a way that's thoughtful, considerate of the needs of patients and also financially sustainable over time. J. MacPhail: Actually, I'm finding this discussion — it's not a debate — very interesting. I actually do grap- ple with the issue about what part of the health care system isn't sustainable then. There are pressures; there's no question about it.

What I'm trying to get at is the specifics of the change, the plan that the Premier has in mind for health care change, that deal with the issue of the unsustainable parts of the health care sys- tem. We know the biggest cost-driver to date is drugs, but I don't think there's abuse of prescription…. Or certainly I don't see where there's abuse. I don't see anything in the plan to deal with abuse of Pharmacare costs. It's merely downloading those Pharmacare costs onto the individual. The public will no longer pay for it, but the individual will pay for it. That's a huge cost- driver.

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1507 Our population is aging, God forbid. It comes as a d e e p b l o w t o m a n y o f u s h o w w e ' r e a g i n g . T h a t ' s a factor that's…. I mean, we can't say that dealing with an aging population isn't sustainable. Maybe you'd like some specifics. What part of the system isn't sustain- able? Hon. G. Campbell: The part of the system which is obviously not sustainable is the financial components of the system that we must support. We have to look at delivering the service in a more cost-effective way to patients.

I think the member opposite should take the time to go through the details with the Minister of Health Services and the Minister of Health Planning, and I think there will lots of opportunity to do that. But let me finish this discussion, at least from my perspec- tive, by saying this: we have asked, for the first time, for the government to set standards for regional health authorities. We will be holding those health authorities to account for the standards that are met. Those stan- dards are not developed yet, not finalized yet, but they will be in place.

We will be holding authorities to account for how they deal with the communities they serve; how they deal with the patients they serve; and how they deal with the workers, the health care providers, who are a critical part of the health care system. We are commit- ted to a publicly funded system. I think the member opposite will find that the discussions that she has with the Minister of Health Services and the Minister of Health Planning will be more than enlightening on the challenges that we face and the ways we intend to ap- proach them.

From my perspective, it is clear that this govern- ment has given a direction that we want a high-quality public health services system that meets all patients' needs where they live and when they need it. We have to do that in the context of an overall budget. Cur- rently, 41 percent of that budget is consumed by health care, and it's growing at a rate that is clearly not sus- tainable. J. MacPhail: Well, that's an interesting statement. I fully expect to explore all of these issues with the Min- ister of Health Services, but that's why I'm curious as to the reverse in doing estimates.

I'm very curious about it, because in the past we would have been able to clear away many of these issues and then only deal with the questions to the CEO. Unfortunately, we're not af- forded that opportunity because of the early aspect of the Premier's estimates. I am trying to limit my questions solely to the area that the Premier himself has raised publicly. That's all. And the Premier is leading the charge on the lack of sustainability in the health care system — absolutely leading the charge and directing parties to deal with this question as a result of the provincial congress, as a matter of fact.

It's very current. [1515] If the system is not financially sustainable, I go back to my original point. The Premier is not saying it's not sustainable for a matter of the services that are deliv- ered. I fully accept his sincerity, nor was I accusing him of saying there were unneeded services being deliv- ered. So it's financially unsustainable. Well, what that means is that the government, by privatizing and off- loading costs, is merely saying: "Sorry, we're not going to pay our share. The provincial government isn't go- ing to pay our fair share.

You, taxpayer, are going to pay the same amount of money — maybe more — for health care, only you're not going to do it through the taxation system. You're going to do it out of your own pocket." Therefore, it becomes regressive. Because it's not sustained financially, as has been the case to date, through a publicly funded system and a progressive taxation system, it now becomes the re- sponsibility of individuals through a combination of a tax system and regressive user fees, MSP premiums, privatization and increased drug costs paid personally.

It may be unsustainable for the Premier, who doesn't want to commit public dollars to those services, but I don't think people who are ill or are in need of health services get a choice about that. They're going to pay one way or the other. Financial sustainability. The Premier's inability to figure out a way for the publicly funded system to be sustainable out of public dollars means that individuals who can ill afford to pay the costs of privatized health care will either do away with the services or pay more out of their disposable income than they would have previously.

That's the consequence of what the Premier is saying in terms of it just being financial — lack of sustainability in the financial regime. It's what the public thought the Premier's intima- tion was then. He keeps saying the system is not sus- tainable. They believe they were promised something different, but the Premier is now saying: "Sorry, I'm not going to do that out of a publicly funded system. You, Sally and Gurmeet Singh, are going to be paying for it out of your own pockets, and I'm getting out of the business of sustaining the system." That's very unfo rtunate.

I just wis h we could have that discussion instead of some discussion that's com- pletely, in my view, manipulated about whether the system is sustainable or not. Doctors don't actually say it's not financially sustainable; they say to look for re- sources elsewhere. The doctors go and say: "Look to user fees; look to increased MSP premiums." The doc- tors are fine to fund the system through a regressive method, but that's not what our leadership in our pro- vincial government should be saying. I expect that will conclude this particular discus- sion. Actually, I want to do one more thing on that ba- sis.

I want to ask one more question. I wasn't going to ask this question. If the system is financially unsustain- able but services will continue to be offered — I hope the Premier is saying this, although some of the gov- ernment documents floating around go against that — then I guess not only will people, in a very regressive way, pay more for their health care. There will be dif- ferent kinds of delivery of health care. Yesterday we

1508 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 learned that there will be privatization. The document we had said there'll be $700 million of privatization in the health care system. How does the Premier expect that will make the system more financially sustainable? Has he met with organizations that deliver private health care elsewhere to figure out whether that is a cheaper way of doing business? Hon. G. Campbell: First, I think one of the chal- l e n g e s w e f a c e h e r e i s t h a t … . L e t m e j u s t p h r a s e t h e member's argument.

If we keep doing everything in exactly the same way, if we agree that we are going to reimburse the people in the health care system at a level that will not just not make us competitive but will make us attractive to them so we have that critical asset available, will the cost of health care explode? The an- swer is yes. [1520] W h a t w e ' r e s a y i n g i s t h a t w e ' l l d o t h i n g s d i f f e r - ently. Let me give the member just a couple of exam- ples. MSA Hospital in Abbotsford has been there for a number of years. There were six operating theatres built 17 years ago.

One of them has never, ever been used as an operating theatre. The member opposite will know that when you make those sorts of commit- ments, that costs significant additional capital from creating a hospital bed. It has never, ever been used. I mentioned the building at the corner of 12th and Oak in Vancouver. Tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars never did anything to meet the needs of any patient in the province.

One of the things we've said is: let's make sure that when you make capital investments, those capital in- vestments have operating commitments behind them so that we do use those facilities to meet the needs of patients. That's a change in what's happened. That means that those capital dollars, those tax dollars, are going to be used more productively. I think one of the challenges we face is to make sure that our health care system is productive. What do I mean by productive? I mean that it meets the needs of patients.

Health care is there for patients, and our job is to make it as produc- tive as we can so that each dollar we put into the sys- tem does as much as it can for patients. We are for a publicly funded health care system. We believe in it. We believe we have to change some of the methods of delivery to make sure that patients get value for the dollars they put into the system, so that people can depend on it.

As the member stated earlier, we know that we are going to go through some changes in that transition, but we believe it will pro- vide for long-term stability, a long-term increase in the quality of care and a long-term increase in the stan- dards that we face in health care. That's our goal, and that's our objective. J. MacPhail: I hear the Premier saying "a publicly funded system." I'm not quite sure how that jibes with the discussion we had when Bill 29 was being intro- duced and passed.

The Minister of Health Services admitted that there would be contracting-out of things like emergency wards and any services that, if you step a foot away from the bed, can be privatized and/or contracted out — a foot away from the acute care bed. Then, of course, we know that there is $700 million worth of privatization in the works this coming fiscal year in health care. It's not a secret. We don't have to beat around the bush. The Premier doesn't have to say to me over and over again: "We're committed to a pub- licly funded system." Great. Set that aside.

I'm not sure what he means by that, but that's his responsibility to explain. We know that they brought in legislation to con- tract out services. We know that there's $700 million of privatization ready to go. Has the Premier met with any organizations that are in this business? In the United States there's Humana Inc., for instance, that specializes in delivering private health care services. What is in the mind of the Premier to say that that would be a more productive way of delivering those services? Has he met with these people? Has he got evidence that it's more productive?

Has he got evi- dence that privatization works? I'll be frank with you. During the debate on Bill 29, the Minister of Health Services had no evidence, not one single study to table, to show that privatizing health care produced better value for your dollar. I'm just wondering whether the Premier or his staff have met with people — U.S. companies, European compa- nies, anybody — to show that your direction is…. I've got a 13-year-old. You've got to ask the ques- tion very carefully, or you find out the homework is due tomorrow but not today. Hon. G.

Campbell: Again, if the question is whether I have ever met with anybody on health care, the answer is yes — i n c l u d i n g m y s t a f f . H a v e I m e t w i t h H u m a n a I n c . ? N o . H a v e I h e a r d o f e x a m p l e s o f where perhaps the private sector delivery of non- clinical services would save taxpayers money? Yes. I think the member knows from the debate we had ear- lier that the Vancouver Hospital and Health Sciences Centre, which I used to call the general hospital, had to pay an additional $1 million for security services. That's $1 million that didn't go to patient services.

There is a whole range of things. [1525] I don't accept the member's suggestion of $700 mil- lion. I understand it's in a briefing book. Let's be clear about what we've said. What we've said to health au- thorities for the first time is: "We expect you to deliver results. We expect you to do that in a financially re- s p o n s i b l e w a y . W e e x p e c t y o u t o w o r k w i t h y o u r workers, with the people and communities across the province to make sure you're delivering those services cost-effectively." I think that's a responsible position to take.

There are some flexibility tools there so that they can make decisions that are in the best interests of pa- tients. That's what we've said. There have been no final decisions made. There have been no conclusions made except: let's make sure we have the flexibility for those

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1509 who we charge with administration, for those who we charge with the delivery of the services so that they can actually deliver those services in a cost-effective and thoughtful way for taxpayers, so patients get care and taxpayers are considered. J. MacPhail: It's speculative, Mr. Chair, so if it's out of order, please tell me. Given these changes in the health care system that the Premier is contemplating, who is he meeting with to discuss these changes?

If it's not organizations that do alternate delivery — the private companies — who is he meeting with to determine what the…? The Premier had that forum, I know, on health care. It was in the fall. What's been the follow-up since that forum, then? There were some pretty specific sugges- tions then. Is the Premier meeting with the chairs of the regional health authorities or the CEOs? Where is the vision coming from, if not from private health care companies and what they have to offer? Hon. G. Campbell: Have I met with all of the CEOs? I'm not sure if I've met with all of them at once.

I have met with groups of them on occasion. I guess maybe this is as good a place as any to deal with this. As the Premier, I actually delegate responsi- bility for leadership for managing the health services of the province to the Minister of Health Services. I am glad to articulate the goals that we have as a govern- m e n t . I ' m g l a d t o b e i n f o r m e d b y p e o p l e o f d i f f e r e n t responses that we may have. I think we have some very good people in the Health Services ministry who are working on developing not just standards but ac- countability measures.

All of those things are directions which I have tried to give to every minister. I say to each minister: "You're responsible, and I'm going to hold you accountable for the goals." Those letters to each of the ministers are available on the website not just to the member oppo- site but to the public. My deputy minister to the execu- tive council, as we mentioned today, has agreements with the deputy ministers in various ministries, and they will be held to account for the actions that they take.

I think the service plans that we've laid out do lay out, in more detail than I have certainly seen before, the direction we hope to go in. They will be three-year rolling plans, so next year there'll be another group of three years out, which will be there for ministries. We will continue to strive.

I think what's critical for the member to know is that I don't come with a bias that says: "You have to deliver the service this way or that way." I come from the bias that says: "How do we get the service to the patient in as timely and cost-effective a way as we can, so the patients are cared for regardless of where they live in the province?" That requires some change.

I un- derstand that institutionally those changes are some- times difficult to manage, but that is, in fact, the task that we've given the Minister of Health Planning and the Minister of Health Services: to establish a long- range plan for the province, to look at ways that we can measure the success of that plan through their service plans. I would encourage the member opposite to look at the service plan, to look at performance measures and to suggest better ones if she or others feel that they're better. We've certainly been doing that with people across the province. We will continue to do that.

As a government, we have said to British Columbians that we want to hear their voices on health care. We have a Health Committee of the Legislature that spent the fall travelling and talking with British Columbians, trying to engage the public in the discussion about how we can improve health care. I think that's what's critical. That's the direction I've given the minister. I think that the service plans of Health Services and Health Planning will give the member opposite a chance to delve more deeply into those matters. [1530] J.

MacPhail: Yes, and the Premier is referring me off to the Ministers of Health Planning and Health Ser- v i c e s . S o b e i t . J u s t s o he 's a ware , t ho u g h , I h av e c o n- fined my remarks and questions to him solely on mat- ters that he's raised publicly. Regardless of the change in the way we're doing estimates, I have completely limited my remarks to his view of the way the health care system should be delivered. Actually, I wish the Premier well, because there is huge unprecedented change taking place in the health care system.

While the Premier may say that's needed because of everything that happened in the last ten years, I'm not quite sure what the outcome is. It's all very well and good for the Premier to say that there's a problem, but then to provide solutions to the problem is a very big, gi ant step that t his government commit- ted they would achieve for the public. That's exactly what they did. To date, I think it's safe to say that the highest anxi- ety level in this province — and there is a high anxiety level across the province — exists within the health care delivery system.

It doesn't help when there are mixed messages coming out about health care delivery and the supposed logic that's driving those very, very mixed messages. One of the reasons why I wanted to be very careful about exploring with the Premier, himself, his views on private health care is because there were no answers coming from the Minister of Health Services in the de- bate around that very issue under Bill 29. We spent a great deal of time exploring that — a great deal of time.

I guess what we have to do is just wait and see whether this great, grand change — what's been both revealed publicly and disclosed through documents that proba- bly weren't meant to be made public — is going to work or not. We are only two members, though somehow the public thinks that we represent the part of our great parliamentary system called opposition. I know the Premier doesn't recognize that, but the public seems to

1510 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 be — ever-increasingly so — demanding that of our time. We get all of these stories from around the province about the effect of these massive changes, and we get them in a way that only when pushed do we go public — for instance, today — with the consequences of the change and the lack of attention given by the govern- ment to these matters. The public is flooding us with letters, and the Pre- mier is constantly making reference that if there are positive suggestions forthcoming, he would be happy to receive them.

I hope that he can actually and that when a positive suggestion is put forward about changes that may be a misstep or avoiding problems in the future, he won't just reject them because of where they came from. We are trying to do our best to bring attention to the problems across the province of people who are perhaps in disagreement with the direction of the government. My colleague will be back to deal with other social policy areas that the Premier has addressed directly. She's in a committee meeting, Mr. Chair, so with the Premier's okay, I think I'll move on to some other mat- ters, for a change of pace.

The Technology Council is the next one I'd like to deal with. I've got the Premier's website. It's a couple of pages, and perhaps the Premier could update me on what the Technology Council is doing. I have a Times Colonist report of February 20. It's a small one, but that's from the councillor himself. What is the Premier doing specifically with the Technology Council? [1535] Hon. G. Campbell: The Technology Council was appointed last summer. They appointed a president of the Technology Council, Dr. Gerri Sinclair.

They pro- vided a first quarterly report — which is available on the website, so the member, I'm sure, has it — with regard to the issues we had to deal with in terms of bridging the digital divide. The council has decided to pursue…. They have toured across the province. Just so the member oppo- site knows, there were public consultations and meet- ings in Prince George, Fort St. John, Nelson, Terrace, Nanaimo, Kelowna and Kamloops. I have had discus- sions here, as well, with representatives of the technol- ogy industry. They have broken themselves into four task groups.

The first task group is going to look at access and op- portunity. That's to identify the challenges we face with the digital divide in the province and to suggest ways that we can bridge it, and the training and skills devel- opment necessary so that those British Columbians who wish to participate can have the opportunity to do so. The people who sit on that task force of the Tech- nology Council…. They are representatives of the Technology Council, so we're clear about this. They then go out, and there are larger groups that have in- put with regard to these items in the council. Paul Lee is the acting chair.

He's joine d by Greg Aasen, who is the chief operating officer of PMC-Sierra Inc; Victor Ling, a vice-president of research for the B.C. Cancer Agency; William Koty, who is the director of the divi- sion of applied technology for the University of British Columbia; David Sutcliffe, who is the chair and chief executive officer of Sierra Wireless Inc.; Doug Man- ning, who is the chief executive officer and president of Bridges.com; and Barb Alexander, who works with Microsoft.

There is a task group on government operations and services, which includes Mike Calyniuk, who is from PricewaterhouseCoopers; Barb Alexander; Jim Yeates, who is the chair of Burntsand Inc.; and Sharon Byrne, who is the chair of Paradata Systems Inc. There is an industry growth and development task force, which is chaired by Norm Francis of Pivotal Corp. He is joined by Greg Kerfoot, who is the chief executive officer and president of Crystal Decisions; Don Rix, who is the chair of Cantest Ltd.; and Paul Lee.

P a u l , b y t h e w a y , i s t h e s e n i o r v i c e - p r e s i d e n t a n d worldwide studios chief operating officer for Electronic Arts. Finally, there is a task group on marketing and public awareness, which includes George Hunter, who is the executive director of the B.C. Technology Indus- tries Association; Ian McBeath, who is the president and CEO of Inflazyme Pharmaceuticals Inc.; Firoz Ra- sul, who is the chief executive officer of Ballard Power Systems; and Amos Michelson, who is the chief execu- tive officer of Creo Products Inc. They are in the midst of public discussions.

We've had many, many people who've said they want to be included as we build a technology future in British Columbia, so the coordination, the development of policy recommendations and the advice comes through the public, up through those task groups, into the Premier's Technology Council so that we can be- come, as we identified, one of the leading-edge tech- nology jurisdictions in the world. J. MacPhail: I'm wondering whether the Premier can just say how the council works. I understand the task groups, but does the Premier meet with the Tech- nology Council? Hon. G. Campbell: I'm sorry.

Could you repeat the question? J. MacPhail: I said I appreciate…. Yes, I do have the report from the Technology Council, so I'm aware of the information the Premier just gave. But does the Premier himself meet with the Technology Council on a regular basis? Hon. G. Campbell: Quarterly. [1540] J. MacPhail: The task group on government opera- tions and services. Can the Premier just explore that a little bit more with me — about the work of the coun- cil?

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1511 Hon. G. Campbell: The specifics from the perspec- tive of the council are that they want to identify gov- ernment services which may be able to benefit from improved telecommunications, improved networking, or what we call e-government. As the member opposite will know, we have a chief information officer who also has a service plan that is moving forward to try and expand services throughout government.

One of the things I felt was necessary with the Technology Council was to make sure that we were constantly kept up to date about what was happening in the private sector, the world outside of government. They are do- ing that. They make recommendations on how we may be able to reduce costs, expand services or increase operational efficiency throughout the government. J. MacPhail: My understanding is that — I don't want to use the lingo — in the January downsizing of government, 200 information technology workers were displaced. Most of them are junior enough that they are laid off.

Is that the Premier's understanding as well? Hon. G. Campbell: I do not have the specific num- ber. There may well have been decisions that were made throughout ministries with regard to that. J. MacPhail: Unless I'm being advised incorrectly, it is 200 information technology workers. We and most governments spent the 1990s compet- ing for information technology workers in the context of the private sector, so recruiting information technol- ogy workers was an incredibly hard task.

I remember the Deputy Minister of Finance convincing me quite ably that there had to be special treatment in order to recruit information technology workers, because the government was having to spend way too much money contracting out those services. In fact, we had presentations as part of the budget consultation hear- ings about that very issue. When I saw the Technology Council dealing with this issue of government operations and services, I wondered whether they had the mandate to actually recruit in order to be much more effective and efficient within government in dealing with information tech- nology.

Is that part of the mandate? Hon. G. Campbell: No. J. MacPhail: Unless this has changed in the last nine months, there is no question that contracting for information technology work is far more expensive than doing it in-house — no question about that. I'm just curious as to why that isn't part of the government operations and services, if it's part of the mandate of the council to figure out how things can be done in a more productive and efficient way. Hon. G. Campbell: If the question is, have I asked the Technology Council to look at how we can recruit into the government? the answer is no.

If the question is, in looking at government opera- tions, do they look at creating an environment where people in the technology industry may be interested in working? the answer is yes. Indeed, one of the chal- lenges we faced was that many people, we heard, were leaving government because they didn't feel the gov- ernment was responsive to the changes that were nec- essary. There have been significant changes in the technology industry in the last year and a half. Frankly,

whereas before there was a real dearth of opportunity, and it was difficult to hire people into government, today there is potential to bring people into govern- ment if we are committed to changing service delivery models to take full advantage of the opportunities of new technology. [1545] The chief information officer is currently working across ministries to try and make sure we are applying these new technologies and to show some leadership with regard to that.

One of the challenges we faced was the plethora of platforms that was necessary to be used across government, which made it a very archaic sys- tem in terms of anyone who wanted to be up front and on the leading edge of technology development. The second thing I would say to the member oppo- site is that the whole concept of shared services allows us to provide technology services across government in a way that is, hopefully, cost-effective, exciting for our staff and innovative. We believe it will make a huge difference in terms of delivery of services to people.

Those are issues that the Technology Council may well raise, or they may not. The Technology Council may raise issues about how we can use new telemedi- cine or how we can deal with payroll. In reviewing the government operations, one of the encouraging things for us should be to know that they feel there are many areas where we in fact are doing a good job in British Columbia. They're encouraging us to build on those. We want to create a culture here where new tech- nologies are available and are used to the benefit of the citizens of the province of British Columbia.

The Tech- nology Council will provide us with suggestions and perhaps best practices that are available in other parts of the world. Most of these people are travelling a substan- tial amount of time. They have created companies in the province of British Columbia that have lifted up our visibility in the technology industry around the world. T h e y c a n c o m e a n d b e a h u g e a s s e t t o u s i n p r o v i d i n g information, assistance and advice. But we don't ask them to actually recruit on behalf of the government. J.

MacPhail: Well, it's a funny way of creating an environment for people to want to join the government service when you're laying off 200 information tech- nology workers. What's the budget of the Technology Council? Hon. G. Campbell: The budget for 2001-02 was $500,000. J. MacPhail: What's the budget for '02-03?

1512 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES T UESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 Hon. G. Campbell: It's $500,000 for '02-03, going down to $425,000 in '03-04 and $350,000 in '04-05. J. MacPhail: There was a very small story on Feb- ruary 28 about the payment to the president of the Technology Council. Gerri Sinclair is being paid the equivalent of an annual salary of about $200,000. It's $10,000 a month, and apparently Ms. Sinclair is contributing 60 percent of her time. That works out to an annualized $200,000. I wasn't aware that council members were being paid. Hon. G. Campbell: Council members are not being paid.

All the council members are volunteering, as we said in the New Era document. We would also have a president of the Premier's Technology Council. The council members were asked to recruit their president. They recruited Ms. Sinclair, who has a very strong technology background and is recognized across the country and across the continent for her expertise. She took on the task and said that she'd be willing to take on the task as long as she wasn't restricted from doing other activities. The council felt that that was good value. It turns out the council was right, because Ms.

Sinclair is working between 70 and 80 hours a week on the Premier's Technology Council. I think most people would say that's not part-time. That's more than a full-time job. J. MacPhail: There's nothing personal in these ques- tions. These are public funds that are being spent, though. The information is that she was hired part- time. I just go with what the information is. What is the role of the chief information officer in relationship to the Technology Council, then? Why is it that the Technology Council needs a separate staff? Hon. G.

Campbell: There is no direct relationship between the chief information officer and the Technol- ogy Council. The reason the Technology Council was established was to try to create an opportunity for gov- ernment to learn from those outside of government. We wanted to create a focus here, because we think there's a huge opportunity to build the technology in- dustries in the province to take full advantage of tech- nology in British Columbia. [1550] The member is correct with regard to Ms. Si nclai r. She has said that she will spend a minimum of 60 per- cent of her time. As I say, Ms.

Sinclair is currently working what is effectively double time compared to what many people would spend in terms of their week. The chief information officer is responsible for initi- ating activities throughout government and for coordi- nating those activities. I think it's critical that there's strategic leadership and direction within government and across the broad public service that currently takes place. He is responsible with his staff for delivering government services on-line.

He's responsible for man- aging and establishing both information management and information technology governance frameworks for the government. So he is part of the ongoing day- to-day operations of government. He's spending all of his time trying to make sure that we get our govern- ment's infrastructure up, that we create a consistency of platforms across government so that government can start talking with itself back and forth easily. I think those are critical things. The chief information officer works with the Minis- ter of Competition, Science and Enterprise.

They are looking at creating strategic alliances that link impor- tant situations: business to government, business to business, government-to-government connections. All of those things are part of what the chief information officer has undertaken to do. The chief information officer's budget for this year was $2.5 million. J. MacPhail: Perhaps the Premier could outline the growth to date of the tech sector for this decade or whatever — I don't have up-to-date information on that — just in terms of how British Columbia has fared in comparison to the rest of the world.

We all know that the rest of the world has faced some pretty difficult circumstances, particularly in California and Washing- ton and Oregon. How is B.C. faring in comparison to those particular areas? Hon. G. Campbell: Washington, Oregon and Cali- fornia? Interjection. Hon. G. Campbell: British Columbia had signifi- cant technology growth. We actually were doing a rela- tively good job of starting companies, but companies that got started and that moved to the next generation of growth were finding that their employees were leav- ing the province of British Columbia.

In fact, the tech- nology industries association's report of 2000, I think, suggested that 50 percent of all new job growth was happening outside of British Columbia. We think we will stem that because of the changes that have been made. We believe that there are major opportunities in biotechnology, in entertainment tech- nology, in communication technology and in wireless technology for us to take advantage of in British Co- lumbia. We have generally lagged behind Washington, Oregon and California. I can't tell you specifically the level, but it was by significant numbers.

Where we might be growing at 40 percent, they were growing by 60 and 70 percent. We do think there is a huge oppor- tunity for us here. We think the quality of life in British Columbia works for the technology industries. Since we last met, we had BCIT, UBC and Simon Fraser University come together with Finning on a new technology campus in Vancouver, which I think will have a huge positive spinoff benefit to the industry. We are starting to build a critical mass in Burnaby with companies of the nature of Electronic Arts, Creo, Piv- otal, PMC and Wireless. All of these companies have a

TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 2002 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 1513 v e r y s o l i d b a s e f o r u s t o m o v e f o r w a r d w i t h , a n d w e think we've created a framework that will allow them to prosper even further and add more jobs to British Columbia's economy. J. MacPhail: I fully agree with the Premier that many companies are moving from entry level to mid- level expansion. One of the issues that the companies face is access to capital for expansion. There was dis- cussion in the 1990s about lack of access to venture capital at the mid-level.

Venture capital funds tend to be offering money — $5 million or less to companies. Has the Premier got any plans, or is there any discus- sion at the Technology Council, about access to venture capital for mid-level and beyond? [1555] Hon. G. Campbell: I can't tell you what their next quarterly report will say, but I can tell you that in deal- ing with people in the technology industry in the past, one of the challenges that we have to try and deal with is the whole issue of venture capital and how you can create it so that it's available for people.

I haven't been aware of the Technology Council's specific concerns with regard to that. I have asked questions with regard to that on the occasions when we've met. The first issue that the Technology Council wanted to deal with was the tax regime — income tax and how their options were treated. Options are a critical part of t h i s . W e h a v e u n d e r t a k e n a n d w o r k e d w i t h … . T h e previous government, indeed, worked with the federal government to try to get how Canadian companies' options were dealt with more in line with how Ameri- can companies were.

That's critical in the new era of open trade, back and forth, and free-flowing informa- tion. We're continuing to do that. The Minister of Competition, Science and Enter- prise is responsible for those issues. I'm sure he may have some comments that he can give the member op- posite directly with regard to that. J. MacPhail: I was just curious, because I saw some speculation in the newspaper about expanding access and giving a greater number of tax benefits to a larger number of labour-sponsored venture capital funds.

I wondered whether that had formed part of the discus- sion of why there was the necessity to expand access to labour-sponsored venture capital funds. In the quarterly report — the Premier mentioned this as well — it did talk about skills access and that the goal of the council is to educate a world-class technol- ogy workforce. Wha

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0305pm-20
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0305pm 20
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	491d2758188f05c19ba98bde9b8541d13c6c26c5

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