tJOL. l \ PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TP.ANSCRIPT :mus• OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.~. - 0:00 p.~. MONDAY, ~OVEMBER 26, !97g 33'77 !iO. J7

Nov~~r 2&, lS79 Tape :;o. l3.;7 .SD - .. The causa mec at 3:00 P.M. ~. dpeaker in t.."le C.'1ai.:. Order, pl'3ase! On tenal£ of hen • .n~rs, fi..:sc of all :: would like :o uke t.'l.e opport:.:J.nity :o ·,..e.l.come t.."'le newest of!icer of t.."ti.s non. _neuse ~"le new Clerk Assiscant, Mr. :·talcolm ?.owe, anti SOME HON. NE:·!BEP.S: Hear, hear. :m. SPEM.ZR: And r woul..l also like ':o take t:..i.J.S oppor"t.unity eo welcome :o the Spea.<.e.r' s Gallery today a !o::::.er Governor of the Stat:.e of Mai.r.e and now t....,e A;:.bassado.r of t..'1e t.inir.eo Scat:~::> to Canada, M..r. K.ennet..~ H. Cur:is.

Aml:;;assador C~rt:.is is accompanied by a.rs. Cur":iS a.r.d the United S t.a.t:.as Consul General !..'l Halifax, :1::. Thomas Wilson. W'e bid -:.."lem a warm welcome and t:...""Use Ulat thai: visit:. to our Province will be an enjoyable one and an informaeive one. SC.'iE S:ON • -"!E.'1BEP.S ; Haa.r, hear. The hon. Minist.er of Ru:a.l, Agricult'..lra.l and Nort~he.rn Development. ~ .. J. GOUD!.E: Thank you, ar. Speaker. :·lr. Sr:;eaker, I am pleased 1!0 announce today t:.hat. Cabinet: has recent.ly approved the cont.i:luance of our special assistance programme to sawmill operators foz: t.he current. sea.son.

":he progra::ne provicies •,o~ork.inq capital to sawmills durinq t.he cutting season when li.Ull.ber sales are nor.nally at. I the lo-west point. Now tb.is will be t...,e four:.."\ year t:..i.at m.y department will participace in such :1 prcg::am.me and. its continuance is ciue mainly to t:..'1.e excellent :esult.s achieved. 3.r.4 t.'"le low number of losse3 experienced. A."l eva.luat.ion of t.i.e l9i6-l9i9 ?rograz:.e revealed an accep"table inc:ease in ll.:ltlbe.r production c.irectly resulting from tile assistance provided..

Cur::ent. figures also show that. 95 per cent:. of funds advanced b~ve been repaid. 3378

~-Iove.t:lber 26, 1979 Ta.pe ::o. 1347 Si:l - z :-t.tt. J. GOUDIE: The new prcgram=es will Ue effec~~e December 15th of t.his 'fear, Zl.!t :l'f o;-:a..tf will be available to accept applicae!ons as of Dec~r Jrd, 1979. SOH£ r!ON. ;.re'MBERS : near, hear. aR .. SPEAKER: {M.r. Si:t.ms) The bon. oamher for ~~e St:ait of aelle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, for our par~ we welcome t.he announcemen'e.

T.'le programme tb.e :inis-eer has just: told us a.boue is not new, as he says,as he acknowledges, it is simplz ~~e reintrodue~~n again ~~is year,or ~~e continuaeion t.nis year,of a programme which came in three or four years ago. I belive Mr. John :.unct.rigan \o{as the m.inister concerned and I. U.."\derstand. it has -..orked. fairly wel.:.. Ar.d I t.."Link, thae beL"lg' so,we ought t:o welccme its reineroduceion or its cond.nu.a.eion, whichever is t.."l.e correct:. phrase, and we do so.

I :nust go on to add cllat., of cou:se, it will do nothing t:o solve the problems of the sa...mlllinq indust--y in this Province and this is not the place 1 ! k.'"tOW Your Honour wulci agree, eo ciebat:.e ~lte :naeter, but web ~'li.:1qs J.s the t~roblems we nave heard about:. in ~ddi.c:ton and Main Brook, or the problems being encouneered by the former sawmill operation at:. t....~a foot:. of Ga.t::OO ?ond. in 3or.avi.su Nor1:...~ distric-:, 't."le dif!iculties wit!l t..~e s«Wmill operation in aay d 'Espoi:, tha for:ter R3lland E."tterprises tlill, the_ ' continuing di!ficult:.ies whi~1 r understand ~e being experienced in Hawkes Bay with N8'W'founc!land Forest Products ,I believe it. is called.

A number of oe."le: large sawmill operaeions throughout this Province and a numl:er of the int:.ar.nedia.t:.e si:ed. ones are not in good shape and. they are not gett..:!..nq t..lu! kinds of assistance which I we think they ought:. to get.. But ~ltat aside, the fac1: remair.s t.h.a.e 3379

• .iover...Ce:: :::6, 1979 s~all~r o~eracors by ·..;hat. a.r::ou."lts :o inventor] financing. T.1a ...,ould be ta.ic:ing

section 88, t.~e seeurit.y t.o it. It is arr.ou.-tti..-:.g to ~an.lting business; che qovern.-:ent buys :..:~e ir..,enterJ ::u.ring :O.'"le n.1.nter r.:ont."ls when sales are clown a.nU. t:...1.en as t:;:.e inventor"./ is sold :-.he gover:urene ge cs t.neir ::oner oac.~.. 'lhis ?rogra..-:.e. has ·..;orkeci !ai.rly well and so •.;e ...,elcotr.e it.s conti:u.:.acion. SOM::: CCN .. MZ:-SE?.S: ciear, near! UP.Al. :o:t:EST.:ONS ~!.~. SP~.:Ea, {S!~tNS): ,.;.q,. D • .JA:.--!IE.SC~i: The hen. LeaCer of t."la GppositJ.on. Hr.

Speaker, I have a series of queseions for the ~nist.er of Mines and ~nergy (Hr. aarr;) flowing from a ncrZe:: of st:atemenes c.'lat: have Oeen :nacie Ly him a."ld ;;.y ot.~ers over :he past. several ..,.eeks or indeed J:rOnehs. aut: t:'.OSt: speci!ic.ally in t."le document daead September St."l.,diseU3Sicn ?aper on Cilateral iss~es ..,.it:..."l the Federal Govemt!'!ent: 1 there is an anticipation ;,e.re t."ul.t: a recom:r.enCation · .. ·it.~ rega:d. to Lower Churc.h.i.ll develor;:ment wi.a be ready and I at:. quot.ing, 'by year's: enci'. !lay I begin Oy asking if t..'1e timet:.able is still in fa~ in place? :-ut.

SPEA.~F.: !W.. L. s;....RR~ : The hon. :•li:J.is"t.er of :ti.nes and !..-terg-1. !-l'.r. s~ea.ker, t..~is refers to t.:te feastililitj:' studies .,.hich .1re present:ly under-..ray by t.he Lcwer C.~urchill Oevelopc:ent Corporation ~oohich we expect ,..ill l::e complet:ed ea:ly in :.'1e ::aw Year. 'At. yea.r's end' did not conteaplate that t.'1e report would Ce in by uecetilier 31st_, although we perh.a~s should have been a little =ore precJ.se. aut at: all times that I have made staeeoents about this in the past year, and the Federal Goverr.r:;ent is aware as well, it is eon-:.erplat:ed t.ha't.

Oefore t.'t.e end of t.":.e fiscal year, before March 31st.. we shoulti .l.J.ve t.;'le final re;a::rt of t..1e Lower Chu..rcaill vevelopment: COrporac.icn 1.lr. t..1.; ieasi.Zility of boe;;. Gull ::.slanC. anci ;,:uskrat Falls. A SUi?t:leeen t.a.ry, :r.r. S;::eaker. ;.. supt;llattentarf, the hon. Leader of ::.:.'le u~:-position. 3380

;et. into a hassle ;.;ith the hon. m.lnist.er over ...-orC~g, but ccrta.l.nl'l •year' s end' does not. say :::..seal ana I have cxu.ined bar.s:art! 01.o>er ehe last July and ;..'-lgust se:ssicns and i:. "'as .:;;,uite clear, eo ::.e at:. le4.it. 1 and is,and. ! can show t..'1.e references ,that •e were ~ng aJ:.out ttle end of .i.979. Ha,.;ever, slippage .l.J?parent.!.:t .\as occur~d so ··•e are now talki.r..g, I take it. 1 thoa enc! :!)! sar~ l98Q.

Cculd r ask e..1.e non. cu.nl.st.er if at e.'lat. tit:".e it ,.ill be a cczrpleted piceure ;.,;i-..icn ·.-:..!1 give ~e opt.ions vis-a-vis ene ·:iull Island site and ~'le second sit.a, :-tu.ak;:at F a.J.ls, ':" :Oelieve I a:\ r:.ot. sure what. t.he o!!'icial t.i:.le l.S of it-and :..'lat. :.hey will ;.roe.h. be put down and t.hat e."le governc:ent ..,ill at. t..."lat. ti:.e nave t::aC.e, t.'1.at. is tile Soverru:.ent of :~ewfou.r.dl.w~. a ccnc!~ion, a very .;;:pec.i!ic ecr.clu.sion as eo t...'le Cirec-::.ion in •hie."!. l.C. want:.s t-:~ go or ;.;ill it just lay these t...,o options and say, '~e!:'e t.1.ay are,' and t."len we ...-oul.cl nave t:.o aga.i.n go e.."trougn t..,_e assessment of t:.."tem eo C.SciC.e ! wllic.., is t:le !Jest one eo choose? 338:t.

!Io•tember 26, 1979 Tape No. 1343 ~- l MR. SPEAKER (Simms): ~he hon. ~inister of ~~nes and Er.er~J· Mr. Speaker, chis is purely a report =ei.~q completed by official$ and ~~is govarr.ment anyhow would not leave chat type of decisi~n to ~~e officials of government.

They will set out the options and it will then be a political decision as to which option this goverr.ment, a.."'td the Government of Ca.'lada, will end up taking. imether it be ~uskrat Falls to be developed !irst, or Gull !slami to be de"J'eloped first .,..ill h.:we to be one of the major decisions, whe~er it be a transmission line laid by submarine cables across ~~e St:ait of Bell~ tsle or whether it be a cunne1 1 tha: Will be ar.other decision. The political decision will ~bviously be influenced greatly by the economic analysis to be contained in ~~is report. But ultimately the options ~ill be set out.

We hope to have all the information necessary by March 31st., to per.nit u.s to make the decision and :.o per:nit us to go :o seek the necessarJ financial assistance from ~~e !ederal gove.rrunent to see electricity !:-em La.brador !lowing eo the Island part oi ~~s Province~ A supplementary, the hen. Leader of ~~e Opposition. ."!R.

JAMIESON: ! undersund, of ':curse, that it is the gover~n~ which must make the choice but is ~~e hen. ~ister saying that if, !!or instance, ~'l.ere is a clear analytiea.l conclusion in ~'l.e v report, that one option is clearly more desirable than ~~e oe.'ler, that the government might, in fact, go against ~e !indings of ~'l.e Committee?

I realize to a degree that is a hypothet:.cal situation but : think it is a quite impor':.a.nt and valid one at this age. !n ot."ler words, in t.'le past the gover:unent has said in :test of these instances t.'lat it:. relies upon the experts • .,Eoe:s ~'lis suqqest that even if ~'lere is a clear preference expressed !or one or the ot.'ler location as a s-e.art 1 ~~a': the government might . .,.ell go in a dif!'erent direction and as a result in a sense negate muc~ of the ~ork that has be~n taking place over the last year? 3382

November 26, 19i9 MR. SPEAK!:..'::t (Simms l : MR. BAR..ttY: Tape He. 1349 N:-1: - 2 The hen. Miniscer of Mines and Energy. ~. Speaker, it is one ~~ir.g to rely upon experts, it. is another thing to abdicate your responsi.Ziilit.y in making ~~is type of decision.

I have yet to see the experts' report that I lot'OU1d accept or feel t..~at I had to accept. in its • entirety Because usually these reports, and particularly a report of t..:.Us nature" are based upon certain underlying assumptions, and usually t..~ere will be a choice of assumptions and often t:.hese assumptions relate to soc~al. economical and, in fact.,polit.ica1 matters. And while at times we may be prepared to leave ~e economic factors to ~~e experts, and lately I a::a not sure we should even do that, we are not prepared to leave t:.he social and political decisions to t:."le experts. "l'e, ar.

Speaker, the elected representatives of :::."lis Souse, are the "experts'' as far as t..~is Province is concerned in terms of makinq social and political decisions. And t.."lat is why I underline the fac't t..~ae we will look. upon the options provided by the experts but we will make the decision­ ultimately as ~o what is t..~e best way to go for t..~e/

November 26, 1979 Mr. Ba.r:::v: MR. SP~ (SLI.t.'1S): Tape 1350 PK - l prosperity and t.he well-being of tb.i.s i?rovince. :. final .supplementary, t.he hon. Leader of the Opposition, followed by the hon. member for ~indsor-sucr~ns (Mr. Flight). !1R. J'AHIE.SCN: ! thank the hon. member for his first year lecture in political responsibilit:y,oi wh.ic.:l t am perfectiy well aware, I wish that the Gove:r4nent of Newfoundland had been equally well aware when they rubber sumped most o! t:..'le rate i."lcreases for - SOME HCN' • HE.MBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

JA.>.fiESON: - the Utilities Board and put the burden on the people of Newfoundland. Hear, hear! ~. JA."UESON: That seate.ment may well come back to ha.un1: h.Lm. Le..t. me in my final supplementary, however, put it to the hon. minister this ·.;ay. w~ now know that unlike the first statement, which said that the report would be ready ~y year's end, we are. now not qoinq to get it until the end of March. At that point the government. must tb.en decide on t:he kinds of actions i1: is goinq to take and then open negotiations wi U1 the Govei:nm.ent of canada for assistance.

I put it to the hen. member in assessing the economic impact of t:his part:iculax ?reject: that: we are not qoing to see a start on the Lower Churchill in 1980. SOME HCN. ME.'1BERS: i\.."l HCN. ~"'.EIE..tt: !om. SPEA:.<ZR: MR. SAP..RY: Hear, hear! 1981 or 1982. The hen. Minister of Mines and Energy. I am not sure whet..her chat is wishful thi.nkinq on the part: of the Leader of the Opposition. There is nothinq t.'1.at I have said that would indicate that is the case. HR. NEARY: A change of government would be the only way the t.owe:: Ch.urchill .,..ill get. going. M.P.. SPEAKER: Order, please! SC."!E HON.

ME."iBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPE:AKEF.: The hon. t·t'l.nist:e.r of :ii.1.es and Energy.

Novembe: 26, 1979 ?~ - 2 When the han. member for - t.'1.e for.ne.r member for Bell !sland (:.tr. !teary) who ran to the Sou-=...'1. Coast in t:a..""X'o: before the last elec~ion - AN HON. M£>A.BE..tt: MR. BARRY: {Inaudible) Mount Scio. l:iy i:lvit.ation. SOME HON. ~'mERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: !1r. Speaker. MR. SPEA..l(E..tt {S::i:M.."'.S): Order, please! The hon. MR. NE.'\F.'!: ! did. not get eight:.Y dollars an hou.::' e.!.:.her . ..,.hi:e r was down :.here. MR. .SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.. 3ARRY'!

The r..eader of the Opposition ha.s referred to this govarnment leav~~g it:. to ehe experts with respect to rate increases for peeroleum products. I thi."'lk we have already had statements of :::.he Leader of 'Che Opposition quot.ed back to him, statements t.hat he :nade while in the Government of canada, in which he - AN HCN. ~'lEER: That has r.othing (inaudible). MR. 3ARR'i: Mr.

Speaker, how is ie tha.t. it. has not.hing to do with what. he is saying, ·:Ohen it is a re!e:ence to h.i.s relying upon when it is re.ferred to his !:elying upon t.i.e so-called experts, and being prepared to accept the fact ~,ae world energy prices that will Cic~te what t.he price of energy is in Canada, which t.l-te Leader of t.h.e Opposition accepted when he was in Ottawa, but somehow now ne has flip-flopped. SOME SON. ME."mERS: Oh, oh! MR. BARRY: Well 1 ::a.ybe t..1.at is ..,hy, Mr. speaker - SOME HON. ~"mERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPE.AKER: order, ?lease! SO!-'.£ HQN. MEMBERS: Ch, oh! MR. SPE:A.!CER: Orde.t.• ! MR.

BARRY: - maybe that is why he is Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker. Tha.t the people of this ?rovince - SOME HCN. MEMBE:R.S: Hear, he a:! ~.R. BA.'qR:t: - saw the flip !lop. SOME ROll. !!EMBEP.S: Hear, hear! 3385

November 26, 1979 M..~. SPEA.l{!:R: (S~"'.MS): ~. i3ARRY: Mit. BA.UY: Speaker? SO..l.!E HCN. PMBERS: MR. BARRY: question? AN HON. ME..'i:BER: MR. a.AARY: SOME RON. ME.'1SERS : MR. BA..t:tP.Y: Lower Tape 1350 ?!C - 3 Order, please! They saw ehe flip flop ehat was zade. ch, oh! If : could compleee ~e answer, Mr. Oh, oh! Would you permit an answer to your ay all ceans. When you are ready. Ch, oh! The infcr=ation being prepared by the 3386

Nov~rb~r 26, 1979 Tape No. 1351 AH-l ~A~ C~ur~~i!l cevelo~ment Co~oration, I expect to receive portions of ~~e final report before it is put toge~~er in one package and I expec~ to have anC to be a~le to go to qover:uttent. W"i~'l information on the various .features of the Low~r Olurc."till Power Cevelopment bett.~een January and March.

The final report, ~"te latest I expect to have it in will be the end of March. ay ~"te time this r~port is received 1 however,! hope to have my colleagues in Cabinet briefed reasonably ~"toroughly en what to eX?ect frem this final report and I would anticipate that t."tere will be no undue c!elay, following t.~e receipt of t."te report, =efore a !i~al decision is made as to what is t!'l.e best route for this Province in meetinq the energy needs of the late 1980s anC 1990s for this Province.

And I am still reasonably optil!'ist.ic t.~at we can see a start on the development of t.'"le Lower Chure!'till power in 1980. All t.."le factors are not '"'it.'"lin our c:ontrol tut ~"tere is noth~g changed, Mr.Speaker. ~ere has been no serious slippa.qa, that I am awa.:e of, ln t..,_e titning of this report. I h.ave always spoken of late 1979 or early 1980 for the receipt of this r~port and :..!-:at is still on

schedule as !ar 3.5 I arr: aware of. 1-!R.$'?!:1\.!<:ER: (Si~

s) nte han. member !or Wind.sor•3ue..i.ans, followed by t.i.e !'l.on. member for LaPoile. ~I. Speaker, my question is to ~e hon. !A..inister of Transpor-::a.tion and Cottrmunications. over this weekenC the ?remier in adC!ressing a qa't:hering in Stephenvillle, in a news report after and a statement, indicated that ::he qover:lmtane 1 s, h..is posit:.ion now with reqard to t.1e 3uc.i.ans-Burqeo·Sout:hwest. Crock roat'l is t."J.at. J.t is now a priority, t.~at ~i.e Province is going to oro::::: for funding on ~"!at road anC t."lat it will one day !::e the second Trans-Canac'.a.

Now, in view of t..'"te fact t..'tat less t.'lan a mont.!-: ago tlle present tt.inister rr.et the Suchan's Action Ccttlmit'tee anC wanted to <:.alk al:out t..i.e concept of d1e Howley road -.not particularly wantinq to talk at-out tb.e Southwes-e Brook road - and in view of t:.'"le .fact t.*'tat. ! have exerpt.s of letters from \ the ~nister of CREE, the hen. El~er ~acKay stating that, n~her one; 3387

~love.ber 26,1979 ':'ape ~rc. 1351 AH-2 t.."l.e ?rovi:l.ce :JP to this point in tit:'!e1 that t.."l.at roaC ·>~as ~ot: even on t.."l.e Province's s!:opping list: ~o= !JR£E funclinc 1 ~.nd h"'t ·;~ent on furt..'"ler to say t..'"lat: he was not ::o:nvineal:! t..'"lat it was an eeonanir:ally viable ap;roach 1 _t:ne question I want to ask t..~e mi.nisj:er is, in view of the Premier's statement this weekend in Stephenville ':las t..~e Depa.rtt~ent ef Transportation !.n?.

Communications rathouqht their a;:p:::-oach <;o t..~e Sout..'lvest: ~ 2rook-Euchans road? fl"hat is the oinister's position.now in liqht of t..;e Premier's state~ent in SteF~envi11e ~"lis weekenc!? !o!R.SP:7AY-!:R: {Si:rms) Cott:trunications. Tte hen. ~nister of Trar.spo:tation and 'that !.s c::or:ec-:., t::. ~p~;oa.ker, ! ':lave r:.ot !lear::! t..'le ?rerei.er' s stater..f'!r.t and ur.ti: S'.!C::h time .:t:-~-I have heard some of the local radio 3388

t:Cvember 26, l9i9 tape lJS2 EC - l s~ations commenting on it and ! ~~de~stand t:..,_ere were some eommenu in t:.'le paper 1 but. ! ha't/1'! not actually heard what. the Premier said and until such ti:r.e, - cio not Oelieve ! should ccnment on it. SOME HON. !'fEMB£?..5 # MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAl<ER• (Si"""'l for Windsc r - auc:han.s. MR. FLIGHT: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, a supplementa..""Y. A supplementary, the hon. the mer:".cer Mr. Speaker, this might sound. ~e a tongue in e!leek !upplementary but I have t.o ask it.

The minister is the M.i.nister of Tran.sporut:ion .u:.d communications (Mr. arett) • t p:esume he decides :.~a poliC"J of Tn.nspor+-..ation. ! presu:ne we do not go from a month to mnt:.'l basis in planning, and a. mnt:.,_ ago he was net aware o.f the qovernment' s intention to do any ~rk t.'lis year on the Sou:hwest Srooic. road. Is the minister sta.nd.i.ng here and ullinq us 'that he is noe aware of t..,_e plans of the Oepa.rt::ment of tra.n.spon.ation co include t:.,_a.t road as a priorit:.y item in the.

DRE:E shopping list, :."lat:. he is not aware of :.~e Premier's intention to have that road built7 I realize it is unreal t.o have to ask this idnd. of question and. the answer . .,e just received is '.Ulreal. SOME HON • ME!"!BEP.S : Oh, oh! M.R. SPEAKEa: Order, please: MR. FLIGHT: Has the minister ind.i.eaeed to t."le Houae t:..'lat he is not: a.wue of his own depar~ent:. • s lonq-t.a.rm road. build.i:lq plans? MR. SPEJU<ER: and. Q)mrnunica.tions. MR.

BRE'ri': The hon. the Hinist:.er of Transportation The hon. member is well a.ware that: ! did not say I a.::ra not: aware of the long•ta.rm plans of t:..~e De:p&rt::aent: of Transpor-..ation and coanunica.tions. What I am saying, Mr, Speaker, is tlla.c I have noe heard the Pramier's statements and I refuse to comment upon r\lD:>W:S. MR. FL1GHT' MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary, A final supplementary, the hon. t:..lte roo:mber !or Windsor - Suehans, followed by the non. the member for W,.Poile I follO"'ed by the hon. t:lle member !or l?ort:. au Port .. 3389

~ovemCer 26, 1979 :::c - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Would -;..1-te hon. m.i.:Us1:er indica<:e ..,hether or not:. he has received correspondence from the auehans A~ion Couaitt:.ee asking :or claritieation on t."l.e Premier's statements and pointing out t.~e utter confusion tnae has been caused by ~~e ~nister's approac.l-t and now the Premier's approach on :.~at ve.r1 crueial problem, that road that will mean so mueh to Cent::'a.l New!ot.:ndland and tb.e auchans area? Would he indicate whether or not he has received co~~espondence from that:. Action Committee requesting clarification? MR.

SPO...\::ER: {Simms) And Communications. ti..T{. BRETT: The han. the ~nister o! T::'an.spor-..at.icn !to, M.r. Speaker, I have not received any recent correspondence from <;he auchans Action Group, not wit:...,.in t.'le 1=ast:. two o::" :..~~· days. MR. SPEAKER: l1l\. NEARl" The hen. the member for ~aPoile. Mr. Speaker, rtrt question i.s for t:.~e M.i.nister of Fisheries, Sir, a.nd it could no1:. coxne at a mora opportune time now :.hat we have the United States Ambassador to Canada sitting in t:.'le public gaJ.le:ry.

My quesl:.ion, Si..r, involves ::tarketi.n.q of Nevfounciland fresh fish t.o t..loe Onited States. There i.s •tery great concern in my own d.i.sl:.rtct today abou~ the stories that are coming out that there are p~lems in marketing Newfoundland fish in the Jnited States market. As hon. members of -:he House know, there are five fish plants in rrq district ..,hicll look to t.l-te United Stat:.es to market thei: proC.uce. Could the hen. ;ent:.leman tell us if t:.b.ere i.s any !ounc:lation to th.ue stories that. the fish market in t.he United Staeas i.s soft at t.'le present time?

And just nov se.rlous is the situation? Could. the hon. qentJ.eman tell the members of t:.~e House? MR. SPEAKER: MR. GOUDIE: 1'be han. the Hi.nister of Fisheries (Actinq}. No, Mr. Speaker, ! ea,n.,ot tell t..'le han. House, regrettably, itow serious this situation is to whl.ch ~~e hon. member jU!It refe!".t'ed. I might point out just for his i.n!or.nation, t.'lat I have been out of the House for t.."le last eight days sick, and have not had e.:.me 3390

November 26, 1979 Tape 1.352 EC • 3 MR. GOUD!Z: in t.>te few hours t."lis morning :.o catch up on wha~ has been happening in ei~>ter my own regular line depa.rt::nent or the Depar"t:nent of Fisheries, of whic.i. I 11m acting :nini.st.ar. MR .. W-ARY: MR. SPEAKER: for r...troile. MR. NEA.:u! : Mr. Speaker, a. supplementary. ~supplementary, t.~e hon. ~~ member Perhaps ! could. :ero in on the 3391

November 26, 1379 Tape No. 1353 ~ .. l MR. NEARY: l1iniseer ~esponsible for Zncargovernmental rt!fairs, whoever that. is .::ight now, ! do not lt.."loW. S'..!t ! will ask the Premier. AN SON. ME.'iBER: ~tt. ~EARY: iie is noe in.

Wel~, perhaps the Aceing Premier or Che Goverr~nt House Leader could tell us if there is any foundation to these sUJrias, that seem to be very serious, t:.."lat are coming out of ~~e United States ~~at the ~rket is soft at the present. time, that there will be ?roblems in the near future in tt".a..rketing Newfoundland fish in ~1e United States and as hen. members know most of the :resh fish produced i!'l this Province is marketed to the Unit.ed States in ~1e form of cod blocks4 Could t:..~e hen. gentleman en~ighten the House as to whether or nee t:..~ere are 4ny problems? !1R. SPEAK1:R (Simms): The hen.

President of ~~e Council. MR. MARSHALL: Well, Mr. Speaker, the situation wi~~ the markets in the United Staces are, you know, a ccneinuing ~~ng, sometimes they are up and sometimes they are down. The preser:.t situation with respect to t:..~e marketing =onditions in ~he Sates is someehing ~~ae ~e are aware of. This information has come :~ light :oday and we are :Mking enquiries ·.o~ieh respect to it.

I do not think at the present ti::ne there is any need for any great imminent concern wi~~ respect to it but I would like to assure the House ~~at the goverr.ment is monieoring the situation and keeping its eye on it very carefully. MR. NEARY: A supplementarJ. MR. SPEA.K!m: A final supplementary, t:..~e hon. member for LaPoile, followed by ~~e hon. member for Port au Port. !iR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am rather disappointed the han. gentleman could not give the House any details, any real infor.nation about this sieuation, which seems to be very serious.

Could the hon. gentleman cell us i! it is just a temporarf thing or how long t:..~is sicuation involving difficulties in ~~e market in ~~e United Stat.es is going eo last? Could :he hen. gentleman give us 3392

November 26, 1979 Tape !lo. 1353 NM - 2 some hine oi what. is going on? Z.s it going co be of long-cerm. dura cion or will it. just be a t.~orary ~~ng? Could the hen. gencleman :ell ~~e House? MR. SPEAKER {Simms): MR. MAJlS!!ALL, The han. ?resi~enc of ~e Council. The first thing, Mr. Speaker, before ~~e matter gets out. oi all proporcion, ~~e hon. gencleman referred co it as a situation, che sicuation in which we now find ourselves.

Now, that is his definition~ Obviously ~~ere is a matter of concern when we gee reports of that nature but I would hasten to indicate thac we are not quice sure at: this present time as to whether or not: a sicuation, as he referred to it, exists. If it does exist we are goL'lg to do everything ..,e possibly can, bo~~ here and. through our representati~es in Ottawa with respect to ~~e mat.'Cer. The only th:ing .: can tell the hon. member righc now is that from time to time the markets for !ish in d1e Unit:ed States have their high point:.s - MR. NEARY: {Inaudible l knows that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, ?lease! M..t:t.

MARSHALL: - and have their low points. Sut t.he hon. member may not be aware of the fact because •hen he was in government they did not keep as close an 9:'fe on it: as . .,e ::io. Tl".is government. now - SOME HON. ME."U!ERS : Hear, hear! MR.. MARSP.A.!.L: - you kno~ has it under consideration and is monitoring it, not weekly, not daily, but hourly. MR. SPEAKE.,'q,: :-tR. HODDER: Minister of Education. The hon. member :or P::~n au Pan. Mr. Speaker, a question for ~'1e hen.

Do we 1 ac the present time, have the specialist tea~~ers in the Province to enable us to implement ~~e grade XII programme in September l990,or for thac matter, in Sepcem.ber 1981? 33S3

uovember 26, 1979 Tape tto. lJ54 so - l The hen. :Unis<;er ct !::!.uc:.3.:.::.cn. :15 • t.. VERGE : :1r. Speaker, I would li~e t:> thank the hon. member from Port au Por-: (Mr. J ~ Hodder) for his quest:.ion and. t:.O take this opportuni t.y to welcome hi:n back to :he House of Assembly. SCHE HON. ME."!.BERS: SOME HeN. HE..'1BERS : MR. SPEAKER: as. L. VERGE: He.u:, hear. Oh, oh! Order, ?lease~ Mr.

Speaker, as I indlcat.ed when I first: made a. ::U.niseeria.l statement:. in t.b.e House on Gra.d.e XII in Auqust 1 no final deeuions on OOw and when senior h.igh school will he reorganized with the addition of Grade XII will be made until at least t.h.e end of the year. A network of committees invol7ing people representing the different agencies wnich shAre responsibility for education have been at wr:;,rk since last iiint.ar doing research a.nd. ra.aking plans.

Those committees will be Q<lking repor~s 3nd recommenaaeions around the end of t..Us mont:h and based on t..'lose recommenda:t.ions government will be L~ a posicion ~ m4ke !inal decisions or. hew and when senicr high school will be ::-eorganized.

The committees have been working under a ta.....-get ~eta.ble see by government:. which woula have :.."le beginning of t.he recrqani.:ed hl.gh sc~ol programme sea:::ting with Gra~e X phasing in next Sepee:n.ber 1990 1 with. :::irace XII actua.ll1 being t.aught !or the first. time in a school 11e.re in 1982-aJ. :iow, it will not be until final decisions are made on the reorganized eu.rriculum and ot..~er m.a.eters that:. ....e will kn:Jw just what teachers are required.

Obviously, \rrl9 have in tL.e Province now, many qualified t:eachers wilo are compeunt co teach ceru.in subjects and t.hese teachers will be able to effectively t.each some of the new courses which are cont.emplat.ed., For example, a .n.ew course in :-tewfoundlanci history will be able t.o be handled by many of ~,e history teachers w.b:l are new :eaching in ou= schools. Part of the preparation for the actual implementation of the new senior high school will involve a lengthy in-service programme for a~rs ar.a we wil.l not. actually

November 26, 1979 Tape Xo • lJ 54 so - 2 HS • !,. • VERGE 1 go ahead with ~~e new programme ~~til and unless we can see ~~a~ adeq~ate teacher preparation ~ill ~e carried out. If it should. happen t..'lat we are s:h.ort. some special.i.st:S in subjects like, for example, home economics or !.nduscria.l arts, there will be a couple of years lead time co t:ry to qet proper specialists in line because Grade X:I itself will not be ac~ually ' taught at t..i.e earliest even under the t.a..rget ti:ne.tal::lle until the school year 1982-aJ. £. HOOOER: Supplementary, ar.

Speaker. ~UFplamentary, ~e hen. mecber for Port au Port. MR • HOODE..tt: Mr. Speaker, ~~e question ~~t t vas asking was whether we do have trained specialists now. Studying 3395

DW - l ~R. ,; • nocDE:?.: one of t:he :r.ini.st:ar'::> corrmi:.t:ees wi'tic:t she just. referred to ...,.h.ich is t.'le one cotr.r...it.:.ee that: has Cone sor.o:e wor.k, t.he report of the Suc-eotr:mit.tee on Curric~um :ta-orqar.iza.tion, in reac.ing t.i.at report I notice that the report,. sut;ges~s and I k.no;.; it is not a final report: :but tilere is cert:ainly an aw!'ul lot: of 'A'Ork gone into it1 but: the report: suggests courses L'1 fine arts, bcokkef'pinS', t.ypinqt ilor--e econocucs and inciust::ial ar::s aa-t."le cinister referred to. :icw, t."l.e rJ.r..ister 5aid in her ans...,er :.o t.he first question t.'lat ~rade XII ...,ouly not Oe i~ple~n:.ed un~l we were sere :hat ~o~e hac! those specialties. i1y quast.:.cn to t.h.e C".i.nist:e: new il.> nave there been any stuCies done by any of t.hl! curriculum ciepa.rttJ:mtz?

I know t.'lat. we have unern?loyed eeaci1ars in ~"'.e Province ~ut I al3o know t..."lae. mar.y of t...'le unemployecl. t.eachers in : . .'1.e Province are nee. spec.ialists. r. am also aware that. t:he Grade :.:II ?rogr.u:me will require speeialist::s, pa.r"'..icularly guiCance speeialis~s in all sehools, even the s~ler schools 1 ~eeause I notice t.'lat there is a different ,?ro<;ra:r:me !or t!le smaller schools t.!'lan fer t.."le larger.

So 'olhat I ar: asking t."le minister i.s:do ~o~e have t.i.ese specialists in t.'le Province,how soon ::an we get them and i'lave their been any stue.ies ':::.y her dej?a.rt:.=.nt to let us know JUSt what type of people are available and ~o~hat. type o! s;ecialist.s are availa.Cle in the teaching ;rofession ;.;ho 'Jill !:::e ::equiree? A."''d I think ?articula.rly of the ones I have mentioned who 'Nill be reqt:i.red to teach. the Grade Y.I! re-organized program. !-'.R • .:. • ROSERTS: Well questionec~ SOME iiON. MEMSFRS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

I.f I might, I !:elieve .:;:erha;s I should point out to hon. mecbers t.i.at the 5t.and.ing Orders a..~ quite clear in that ques~ions as ... ell u a.nS'\Iiers should be fairly brief. I belie~ I have Ceen very flexiblS today and I would ask all merc.be1s to kee:? the Standing OrC.ers in tr.ind when 'they a:e asking or answering quest:icn.s. The hon. Minister of Educa'tion. 3396

• ·...;;. L.

V'ERGE: rr.e:r.ber' s: questions Yes, Xr. s;;.:eakar, ion re_;::l~ .. to '!..~c ;,en • I ·.,.ant ::o reiterate t...~at no final prepara::icns are in place for o;.'le st:.a.:t. of ::..'le ne .. · i1i.;U schorill ,?rcgralt':.e. :.J.r~ of t.he ":'ro.rj.;, that ~'le cct:..'ltit't.ees are e:tbark;ing on, ! nave r.ot :aeen their fina..l recorr.mentia.ticns or reports, is racommenc!ations on the courses and. speciaUscs which will be needed. ! will t:e in a better ?OSition to corrrent on :.he exact: points that:. ne raised after : receive t.'lose rej?ort.s anC reco:manc.ations ~o.·hich should be vert shortl:t•. :tR. J.

P.ODDER: A. final sup;lemt!nt:ar], ar. s::a.:..l;.1:1r. A fiaal sujtplementar.f, the h.on. ~e;:-.l::,~r !or Port au Port follo...,eC. ::~r t."le hon. l':'.ec-.ber for Sagle F..iver .• ~:R. J. riOOCER: th.e fi:st tir.e, s~e is ~:R. :. . RCBE.R'!'S: I notice frc.:n the m.in.is't.er' s: a.."'l.swers for She has admitted no~. put:.ting no ::ilne li:tit at all.

Now we were t~ng about Sept:e:ber l960 as a ~argee dace and 1981. ii~~ a qt:astion audl, as this,wtlether '.Je have t..,e qualified teac.'lers in the ? rovince 1woul.:::: :.he ::".inist:er eell tr.e whether t.ht..rs are any pl<1ns to re-train, perhaps 1 some of our U..''lemployed >;eachers ..,he will k::e needed .in those special.lst skills like guidance COW'l&ellors and industrial arts, particularly in the rural areas of t.,e Province wnere none of' these ?eople exist now?

And t."te secenci ques'C.ion ! must ask is whether the clni.ster inc!eec! feels that: Ule Grade XII rrogr3.1:%e ea..-. be. i.zplemeneed in Septerr.ber 1981 or 1992 wit.'1 t.he ci.rcucstances t.."ta:. we now face in t:he schools of the Province? 3397

November 26, 1979 Tape lJ56 PK • l MR. S?EAKE.R (SI.M.MS) : TCe r~n. M~~is~er !or E~ucat~on. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, my seatement al::out t..J.:l.e uncertainty of the timing is entirely consistent with what I said in this House in August. r have said from 'the beg.i.nning that no fi.."lal decision on the timing or the method with which the new h~gh school programme will be implemented would be ~de until the end of this year, &fter we had received the reports f:rom the committees which had been at •,.;ork since last Wineer.

As for the possibility of a shortage of specialists who will be required, oLviously we have ~ number of these specialists in the Province now who would also continue their work in high school even aft:e= the aed.ition of Gr3de :<I!. As for Che possibility of ::et:.:::ai.ning some unemployed teachers, this is somet.."ling that has been discussed a.rui it has also been mentioned to me by The Newfoundland Teachers' Association which is concerned.with this situation. MR. SP~R: The hon. memOer fe-r Eagla River. I think I indicated a final supplementary, unless the member for eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) wishes to yield.?

There are about t•,.;o minutes left. MR. a:ISCCCK: Oo I lose my question? AN HCN. ~.SER: Yes. Do not - MP.. HISCOCK: No. MR. SPEA..f<E:R: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Seeing that the Minis~er of Justice (Mr. Ottenhei.::l.er) is not here I would like to direct my question to the President of the Privy Council (.Mr. Marshall). I would. like, if it is possible, for the President to get this information for the House.

I was rather concerned that the NLC ended up making a decision November l61 reneging on a privilege, as they said, that !lewfoundland and t..a..brad.or clu.bs had with regard to tl1.e extension of the hours of being open from one o'clock to three o 1 clcck. r would like for t:.he minister to provide the House with the information on, m:mbe.r one, what would be the total number of accidents in St. John's last year? How :nany break and ent:ries were there in St::. JoM' s last year? 3398

November 26, 1979 Tape l356 PK - 2 Mr. Hiscock: r..ow many rapes were there in St. John's last year? How many impaired drivers were there in st. John's last year? And. how many speeding tickets ~ere given out last year? how many of th.ose took place after one o'clock? And 1 then, also, MR. SPEAl<ER lSI!-!MS)' 1-!R. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. M.r. Speaker, ! would be glad to give ~b.e hon. member complete info~~tion right now, but we only have two ~L~utes to the end of QUestion Period. SOME HON. MEMBEP.S : MR.

MARSHALL: So the hen. member - oh, oh! ! know the hen. member does not. even presume t.hat. any m.inister. of t..Us government, as good as this government. is, would have t..Us particular i..nfor:na.eion at his fingertips. so ! will t.ake notice of it and find what infor.na.tion 1 such as the seatistics,maybe there. For instance, the hon. member has asked us what speeding eickets • ..,.ere given after cne o'clock? .He asked how many- God help us .. rapes were coanit.ted after one o'clock and. the other Ulings.

We have statistics on crimes that have been commit.ted and offenses have been committed, but I do not: .think it is categorized as to what time of the day c.hey occur. AN HCN. ME."!BER: (Inaud.il:lle). MR. SPEJUC:ER: It might be more appropriate if the hon. member would place that question on the order Paper. The hen. member for Eagle River. MR. tUscccx, When I gave the question I did not expect the President: of the Privy Council eo !-.ave it at his fingertips, I expected him to go baek and get, the research done. In that I would like to include armed robbery after one o'clock? MR. SPEAKER: MR.

MARSHALL: The hon. President of t.i.e Council· Mr. Speaker, 3399

November 26, 1979 Tape No. lJS7 NM - l :-tR. !1AHSHALL: I taka not.ice of c..:,e question, hut I do have the tell ~~e hen. gentleman- you ~~ow, he asks these questions and t.~en at the enC. of it, which of these were committed a£ter one otclock? Now I do not know if ~~at information is available but certainly if that information is available, Mr. Speaker, we will bring it before this House at the earliest possible moment and table it. MR. SPE:AlCE:R (Simms): has expired. Order, please! The time for Oral Questions PRESENTING R-1:'IIORTS BY S'l'At-t"''I!iG AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: M..'C!.. SPEAlCER: The hon.

Minister of Heal~~. HR. HOOSE: Mr. Speaker, I want to table t.."i.e Annual Report of ~~e Newfoundland Medical Care Commission in accordance with the provisions of the Newfoundland Medical Care Insurance Act, a.nd this is the repon for the financial year ending ~arch 31st., 1979. NOTICES OF MOTION! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. President. of the Council. MR. MARSHAI.L: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of '!he hen. Minister of Just.ice, I give notice that I will on tomor:ow ask leave to introduce the following bills, "An Act To Remove Anomalies ilnd E::ors In The Statute Law,'' and a bill ...

An Act To Amend The Legal Aid Act, l975." MR. SP=:.AKER: The hon. M.lnisr.er of Finance. MR. COU.INS: Mr. Speaker, ! give noeice t:..~ae I will on tomorrow ask leave t:o introduce a bill entitled, "An Ace To Amend The Liquor Control Act, l973.n MRa SPEAKER: MR. BARRY: The hon. Minister of Mines and energy.- 1 Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Mineral Act, 1976." MR. SPUKER: !1.-:t. RODOER: The hen. member for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I ~g leave t:.o ~ove a mot:.ion;

WHEREAS ~~e Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has t:.."i.e highest unemployment record in Canada.; and

WHEREAS there are a number of areas 34'}0

November 26, 1979 -rape !Jo. 1357 of ~~e ?rovince where the ~emplo~ent ~igures are far beyond ~~e provincial aver~ge~ and WP.ER:AS mo~e th.an half of those now unemployed are in the !ifteen to t:.veney­ four yea:: old age group; a.nd

WHEREAS a stud;:• of e..l-).e economic potential of Stephenville, ?crt au Port. St. George's area, the Odell Report, stated that in 1979, be~~een eighty and ninety ?er cent of the labour force in t..~e district of Port au Port were unemployed during December of 1978, and 3n estimated thirty to forty per cent are without work during e..~e L~shore fishing season; and

WHEREAS many other areas of e..~e Province suffer si=tila.r rates of unemployment; and WHE..ttEAS the resources already k."'l.own ar.d available to our Province could, if properly •.:sed and developed, provide full and permanent employment to everyone in the growing Newfoundland and t.a.hrador lal:::lour force i BE IT THE..!1.EFOR£ RESOLVED that this House fully debate all aspects of t..~e unemployment situation in the Province of Newfoundland and t.a..brador; AND BE IT FURTHER RSSOLVED that a selec1:. committee of this House be appointed to 'Nork with labour, the academic community and business asscciaeions as well as interested individuals regarding ~~e development of job opportunities in chose areas of ~~e ?rovince where unemploymen1:. is !:he highest.

And, Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave of the House to have this motion, perhaps, put forward on t:.he Order Paper so that we might be able to get a chance to debate it during ~~is session of the House 1 perhaps shortly. I would ask the - MR. SP::AXER (Simms) : Order, please! It is my understanding ~,at ehe hen. member is presenting notice of a private ~er's motion and ihe decision as to when ~~at motion should be debated would have to ~e =eeided on Private Members' Day, I would thi~. So we will leave it at ~~at stage.

' November 26, 1979 Tape :-Jo. 1.357 ~1R. SPEAlCE:R (Simms) : The her.. membe~ for the ~t~ait o: Belle Isle. !iF.. ROBERTS: Mr. Speake~, with ~espect, it is a private member's motion ana my hen. friend has given notice as is required but ! understood he went on and asked if the members opposite '""ould give leave to allo~<~ it to be placed higher on :;.~e Order Paper.

As it now stands it will naturally go at the bottom of the Order Paper and all I can say is we on ehis side are prepared to have this put at ~~e top of :;.~e private members• list. !t cannot be called except on Private Members' oay, of course, =ue we would like to see it at the top of :;.~e pr~vate members• list so it would be t~e ne~ order called and :;.~at could be done~ surely by leave of the House and this, I would su.bmit, 1our Honour, is an ap9ropriate time to ask if such leave is granted. !-ffi. SPEAKER: The hen. President of the Council. MR. !1A.::t.SHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I would suqgast it is not the appropriate time. The rules ...,it:h respect to ?ri•taee Members• Days are thae the motions are put: on the Order Paper ln accordance with the time of their receipt~ ! would suggest:. that !his particular motion .,..ill be put on the Order Paper L-1 accordanc~ wi t!l the time of its receipt, after the cnes th.at are there and when Private Members' Day comes ~~en it is a matter cf determining ~~ese ~~ings, determining the precedenc~. aut in the meantime, not everybody who has matters on the Order Paper is here present I do not .believe.

I! the hon. gentlemen opposite feel that the motions that they have put on ~~e Order ?aper now are inferior and they do not warrant debate,it does not necessarily mean ~~at the hen. gentlemen here on this side feel che same ...,ay. aut: it is a mat:ter ~~at should be decided on Wednes~ay. H..tt. SPEAKER: Order, please: With respect to ~~e point raised I would like to tMe the matter under advisement. We can deal with it later today i""f necessary but:. for the fixst part: 1 t..~e motion is accepted as 3402

November 26, 1979 Tape No. 1357 NM - 4 11.'q. S?~~-KER (Si=:ms) : a noti:e of :notion or a private rnem.be='s moeion, ~~e same as any othe= private members' motion when presented under Notices of Motion. M..tt. !t08ERTS: Just so we are clear, ' 341)3

November 26, 1979 Tape 1358 oc - 1 MR. OOB£RTS: you have t.aken t..'"tis 1!.."ld.e.r advisement, t:he question of when it is appropriace eo ask for leave. Ao."l HON. ME::-'.BER: !'hat is rignt. MR. roBERTS: Okay, t..l..at. is !air enough, and I Would simply submit in return that it is a.n appropr:.a.ce time t.o ask for leave, if i: is qranted. r realize :.'lat. hen. gentlemen oppoai ta may not all be here, but perhaps not. all on this side are here, a.nd, you know, t.."le House can act. by unanilNJus consent at any time if it so wishes. It would also be appropriate, of course, to raise it on t...,_e '..Wednesday.

C.bviously, hen. gem:.le:nen opposite ue afraid of t.."lis motion, do r.ot '<~ant it debated, but if it is r.ot. in. order to ask now we '<~ill raise it again next i<iednesday. That would be my suggestion, t.o raise it again next Wednesday. A..'iSWEP.S TO QUESTIONS FOR '1-11iiCH ~OTIC::: HAS BEE:l GIVE~ MR. SPEAKER: The h.on. the Minist.er of Healt.'-1. MR.. HOUSE.: :-tr. Speaker, I have the a.nswe: to question number 56, regarding physiotherapists, placed on the Order Paper by the hon. the =-mte:r for La.Poila (X.r. Neary). Any furt.."ler answers to questions? ORDERS OF T"rlt DAY Order Jl4 Order Jl, Bill No. sa.

Second readin9 of a bill, •An Act 'to Amend, Revise And Con.soliciate The t.aw Relating 'I'O The Establistu:lent. And Administration of Municipal Government In The ?rovince." We are on the 'I'he hon. th.e member for Grand. Bank. ,, MR. THOMS: Mr. Sp<ea.k.er, I adjourned the debate on Fticiay in eonneetion wi t."t this ac:t, which is a very important act for this Province:. I think it is ce:tai.:lly the only act:. t.1.at. h.as come before t..'tis House si!'lCe I became a me.mber. Somebody once said t.'lat i! six people b.ad. spoken on any one piece of legislation in ?arliament, t."len everything 3404

~ovember 26, 1979 Tape 1359 EC - 2 !oiR. THOHS: that: could Qe said a.boue a par-...ieular piece of legislation wculc! have been said by :..1.at par~cular ~me. However, I '!."link in c:on."lect:ion wit..'1 t:.."lis pa.r'"...icular act:, the !>lunicipalities AC1:, a.ll fifty-one members of thi..s House could speak on t.he bill and sveryone :ould. have something new to say. I have not h.ad the opportunity eo read this act as extensively 1 as t.i.oroughly, as I would like to have had. I m&C.e some poines on Friday.

I not:.ice the press did not consider them a.ll t.i.at important., but I am still going to repe~t some of tile things t.'l.at I said on Friday, and as well, of course, my friend from St:ephenvilla (!i.r. Stagg) was not. in t..\ote House on Friday and he would probably like :o hear some of the eocr.ment.s I have about this act as well. I t..i.ink one of t.i.e points :hat I did bring out:. - we saw before the Public: Accounts Cot:tanittee, as I said, a minister of !he Crown, the !tiniste.r of Lands and Forests (Mr.

MorganJ, say t.i.at under the Public: Tendering Act he could have been in a position to save tt'l.e people of this Province thousands and- thousanc!s of dollars, but. because of t:.'"'te st:rlc:t in-cerpretation put on a. pa::-..icular se~..ion of t..i.e Public Tendering Aet, he could not do that. So what do ...,e find now?

We find that t..i.e government is bringi!l.q in a Municipalities A.c:t .. t:he consolidation and revision of th.is act - that. has exactly the s.ame prcvUion in t.i.is act t..i.at is in the Public Tenderlnt; Act, and. t..'la.-:. is a situation where there is an extension t.o a. ccntra.c:t:. and you eannot neqot:iate downwards. The minister inurpret:ed that particular act to mean that it could negotiate downwards. In ot.i.er words, somebody came along and. said, • took, r have N number of loads of gravel here, - Th.i.s is an extension to the existing contract.- I want to get rid ot it,. it U no qcod to me_..

I will sell it to you for $3.' The minister would h.ave to say to him, 'No, I am sorry, we cannot buy it froas you for SJ -we have to pay you SS for t..i.a.t.' That- is the way t.'le Public Tendering Act W'AS interpreted. And what do we have? We now have a :ninister -

Nove~ber 26,1979 ':'ape No. lJ59 AH-l M!LTHOMS: we have a ;ovenr.ent. -,.,hich brings in

an act wit.'l the same wording. In other words,cou:tcils canno-t qive extensions and ne~otiate dcwnwa.rd And t.~at particular

section of t.,e act should be changed. The particular

section that I ended up on Friday and this is a panicular

section of this act that - I have not heard t:.he President of the Newfoundland Federation of Municipalities mention this, I have seen a news release come out, I have read an

article in the newspaper whe=e the president was urqing that this particula: piece of legislation bP. put through the House as O"Uickly as possible hut I would doubt very much if t.'le Federation has made it public in this Province e..,at every councillor accepts a lial:lility when he becomes a councillor, not only a joint liability but a several liabilit.y. In ot.'ler words, one particular person , one particular councillor can be held res~onsible for the acts of the ~hole council. They can go after one person. '!'hey ;ust cannot go after them jointly, they can qo after t..~.,_m severally.

In other worcs, they can sue the one with all the money. I voncier how many councillors in this Province realize tila't. when they are qi'linq voluntarily of their time and effort that they faee this responsibility, this liability unc!er t..~is ac:1:i I do not •ee and I have not seen the President of the Newfoundland Mayors and Municipalities making t.'lis lcnovn t.'lrouqhout the lenqt."l and breadth of this Province.

Well, I can usure the lninister and I can assure the qcvernment tha1: anybody who is qoing to be running for council in the district of Grand Sank from now on will realize what an onerous responsibility is beinq placed on him by this particular act. Art HON. MEMBEP.: You will scare t.~em off. O!lt.THOHS' Of: course you will scare them off and they should be scared off bc.cause they are never inforD'If!d of it. Did the minister in Gander, did he inform the convention Ollt in Gander that eouneillors would be accepti.."'lg this type cf nuponsibility? Would he ever do it?

!lovelnbe.r 26,1979 Tape Ho. 1359 Al!-2 SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! It is not a question of scaring people. Why did this government amend the University Act so that merr.bers of the Board of Regents and the Senate of the university are not liable? Why did they do that? Why not qive the same protection to councillors who give their time and effort in this Province to serve the people of this Province?

Is the Minister of Finance {Or.Collins) suggesting that we should not advise t.."le people of this ?:evince of this onerous and unfair responsibility that ~ey are undertakL~g when they put ~~emse1ves up for election to the town and c:cmmunity councils in this Province? Is the minister suggesting that we should hide it and keep it hidden? Keep it covered up. OR. COLLINS: : contend that t.b.ey are conscientious enough (i.."la.ud.ible). MR. THOMS: I dout-t- how many do we have sitting on the other side of the House right now? I doubt if half t."1e people over there have read t."lis act or will ever read t..lte act.

Obviously, the fd.inister of Lands and Forests (Mr .Morgan) did not read the act: or he would have asked the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing (Mr. Windsor) to amend

Section 430. He was the one who was in before the PAC screaming' about the wording of

Section 430. He, obviously, did not read the act. !3ut then • of eourse, I heard people on the other side of the House speak on the Matrimonial Act: who obviously had not read the act as well. So t.here i.s noeh.i.nq WlUsual, about that. 'n'le other one that I mentioned on Friday was the one t.."lat I called and what could be t.e...~ed. t.e.nure, to town managers, town clerks and department: heads of municipal,ities, 3407

November 26, 1979 Tape No. 1360 GH-1 MR. THOMS: eaking the respcnsibilicy of what. happens to council employees out of t.he hands of the council. They have given ~~ tenure. They can only be dismissed or suspended (

a) with a two-thirds vote of council, a two-thirds vote of council, and secondly, if ehey grossly misconduct themselves. They have the same protection - cown managers, town clerks, depar~nt heads - t.hey have the same protection as a judge of the Supreme Court of Newfoundland or a ~~iversity professor. Why] why? Why does ehe minister think ~~at the councils cannot run their own affairs in this Province, they cannot he responsible for thei: own employees? Le~ e.~em make a decision whether a man should be hired or fired or what have you. Mr. Speaker, another

section that I would like to bring to the attention of the minister: In saying ~~is I am not suggesting ~~at a council 3hould not be able co charge arrears on caxe~ - I would like to point out to :his rr.ouse t.hat ! .am bringing ~ese part~cular sections, these particular points, to the attention of the minister hoping that they are cons1:.ructi•.re, hoping :hat ~'le minister will consider them cons~~ctive and will, hopefully, bring about some amendment to the act. !t is not a question of wanting to delay or anyehing else, but this particular sections says that arrears can be charged at the prime·rate of interest charged by the chartered banks the firse'day of .January in each year.

So, what do we have here? We have anybody who ~s in arrears of interest being charged - what is the prime rate, 15, goodness knows it might have gone up, it might be 16, it might be 17 for all we know, the interest rates are going up so quickly since Hay 22. You can hardly turn around without getting a notice from your bank, now the interest rates have gone up ano~~er percentage point.

I certainly have not received one lately say;ng it has gone down a percentage point, but on top of that, on top of that, the minister has seen fit to put another 3 per cent - it is not enough ~'tat on arrears they can charge 16 or 17 per cent in this Province today, but on top of that 15 or 16 per cent they c~~ now charge ano~'ler 3 per cent. Mr. Speaker, we have an unconscionable 3408

November 26, 1979 Tape N'o. 1360 GH-2 M..'tt. ':HCHS: Transac~ions Ac~ in this ?~evince which defines what is an exorbitant or an unconscionable i~terest rate eo charge. It just might be ~hat a court ~ould !ind that ~~is is unconscionable. It is certainly something that should be looked into. Mr. Speaker, it is not ~~at I cannot read the act, but somehow or other in the particular one that I have certain of the pages are upside down. Mr. Speaker, certaL"''lY ~he act itsel!, in many respects, is upside down so I am not su.~rised. MR. BARR¥: stand on your head, it ~ill be easier to ~ead. MR.. THOMS: What is ~~e shah of Mt. Scio saying? Mr. Speaker, I have had another

section in this pa.rt:.icular ac~ . ..,b.ich gives me some concern and that is

Section 141 of ~,e act, which provides for a penaltY where any person who fails to pay any tax he is liable to pay in accordance wi~, ~,is part or (

b) to collect and pay to the council any tax he is directed to collect and pay over by this par-:. l::.e is 3409

~-love:r.ber :6, 1979 ~ape :lo. l36l en - 1 :-'!...~. L. TE0!-1.5: guilty of an offencs:, on stm".mary convict.ion eo a fine of r.ot lass u.an S25 each day. xow, ~1:'. Speaker, ou: Compani.a!l Act has We su.e t;~r:lvision practically for sore.boc:!y who is doinq business in t.he Province and without having- registered w do business in the Province 1 the penalty is S25 a day for ever1 day t.'lat -:..'1a1: ?el:son c!ces business in the Provi."lce wit."lout being so reqis'tered. I ~ not know of any occasion in ~~s ?rovince where any mainland company has teen fined t.hat $25 a Cay.

Now, most of t.."te cocpanies :.hat cc::-.ec in f=cm the ::::-.a.inland to de business in t.'1is Province are ::ig cot:".- panies.You would not h~ t.'lem too bar!ly -Zi· ir.posing the penalty in the Companies Act.Ch.a.r9inq ther.t S25 a day, you ·•ould not hurt them t.oo baC.ly! But, Mr. Speaker, t .. his is obviously a

section that was in the other Act and. I know that in my aistric-e t..lte ::.aqis1::ate is actually imposing this penalty. Sonebody owes t."le council $100 and the magistrace '"'ill it.:pose t."lat S25 a day. so t..lte SlOO ;~ts all ou~ of pro~orcion, it Cecoees SSOO t..ltat they have t.::l pay, the aitount of the an:eas plus the S2S a day fine. ~w. ~-lr.

Speaker, to me ie is ki.nd. of ironic t."lat John Jones W.m.ited, from G.llga::y, can come in here, can do business illegally, really, illegally, for wnich t.'1ey should be fined $25 a day, but ne•.ter are .. but still you let somebody who is st:u;qling on a fixed income i:t \irand Sank, or FortWle or t.amaline or St. t.a.wrence-' go to c:ou........o: and t.'le ::agis~rate has no hesitation ~othaesoever in fining. him S25 a day for every Cay that the money is not paid.

No h•sitation what:.oever! ! think t.ha;t ls a seeti.on that ean be looked at.! thin.\;. it leaves it wide ;>pen to - you cannot call it abuse because the magistrate would not abuse the

section but he is applying the penalty :: .. at is t..'lere. I t.'"link t.'le penalty is too harsh! ~nd what happens is t..'lat a person, b~eause he has not paid it - an:! I have had situation•, I ean give you a.c-eual situations like this ·•here t.."le penalty has far exceeded -:.."le amcunt ..... of the arrears. 1 can give the ::d:Us-eer '3Xa::!?les - I can gi•:e you an e~~la righc ouc of my own dist.ricc.And ~hat happens;Tha person cannot pa:t it. 3410

:lovettJ:er 26, 1979 Tape ::o. l3El lJW - 2 !1r. Speake.::, :.he.:e a.::e t':"a.r.:f, r'!an:r sect.ions in this Aet that need some clarification. Of course, o;e ·,;ill 9et a chance: ~uri."lg t.he clause ily clause. These are acrc.e o! t:.."le ;:era i.tt:fJOrta."lt. ones t."lat I. •·ould like t:::1 c;oint out at t.h.is tir:-.e.!. .. ot!lc! ~e to :tave nacl a fa..,. ~r.crr.en :.s to spent! speaking :ln t.'le curfew ""hich is sc:.:e t.nir.g t.:.at - especially sotr.ebo~¥ wit..'l :toung ci.Lild:en-I. would lil<.e to ~ave ·'had. ';.ime to say somet:hinq on that:. We h&ve a situation in

Section 27l, in coMection vith a r:eeting to revlace cocncils, ;.·hich is a t..'lrow~ac.";. eo t.'le ciarJ.. a;:esJ I ~a.n,'*here t."le secret ballot is 't-aker. anC tnrown rignt. out. t.'le wincio·.o~. No long11r is a. secret:. ballot be re~laced by a show of hantis. se::et. at•J't:l.Ore, ..;here councillors can

~cvember 26, l979 Tape !-lo. l.J62 so - l :iR. L. THC:-!.5: I tr~~~ tha~ should Ce changed. Mr.Speaker,as ! have aa.iC,a.ll fift::1-one JD.embers of this House ecl.ll.d speak on this particw.lar act and everyone of e.~ could say somet.tUnq new if they .,anted to. ! th.L"'l.i(. it is

an act that we sOOuld give a lot longer view ~o tha..."l have, I think tile minis-ear and ~he government and a.s well. we have no e had t..'1.e opportunity !1.r. Speaker, ! would cereainly support a delay just:. so -...e could :lean up the act and ! cio not mea."l to be punny there eit..~er. T!lank. you, Mr. Speak~r. SOHE HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear. aR .. SPEAKER: (Mr • .5i.J:ttls) Is t:.h.e House reaciy for ~lte question then on t.."le amendment? The question has been called. Shall the lloQrds proposed eo l:e left out , st:.And a~a.rt. of the question?

Is it the pleasure of the !:louse to adopt the motion, those in favour '"Aye• ccnt.:a.ry "!lay". In My opinion, the 'Nay•s• have it, Slla.ll the -...ords proposed to be· insert:.e<:i by the amendment .be there inserted? Is it t.lote pleasure of the House to adopt t..,e said moeion, those in favour '"Aye'"cont:ary '"~ay•. I declare the mocion lost. SOME HO...'l. !-!EMBERS : MR .. SPEA.KI:R: Now, bac::k on t.he l:lol.in question. Division. Call in the :nem.bers. :i»rv!SION 3412

Uove.m.ber 26, 1979 Tape 1J63 p!( - l :-m. SPEAKZ.R (SL~.S}: Is i:. agreed? MR. ROBERTS: Well, r have net: heard from r.r; colleague in the Common Room. .~ybody else? MR. SPEAKER: Agreed? Agreed! MR. SPEAKER: Those in favour of the mo'Ci.on, please rise? I MR. ROBERTS: Valiant fighters for democracy. Mr. Flight, Mr. Hodder, Mr. Fred Rowe, Mr. Ed.ward Roberts, Mr. Neary, Mr. Thoms, Mr. Moores, Mr. Rideout, Mr. Hollett, ¥.r. Stirling, !:".r. wa.rre.."l, Mr. Hiscock, Mr. Bennet::.. Mlt. SPEAKER: Those against the motion, please rise? The hen. Minister of Mines and. tnerg-; and !ndust:ial oevelopmem:, the hen.

M.i.:1ister of Social Services, t~e hen. Minister of consumer Affairs and ~vironmene, the hen. Minister of Public Works and Services, the hon. Minister of Lal:xlur and Manpower, the hen. Miniseer of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the hen. Minister of E'inaru:e, the hon. ?resident of the Council, the hen. Miniseer of Transportation and commmunications, the hon. Minister of Rural, Agricult~al and Northern Development, t:he hen. tii."list:er of Education, the hon. Minister of Health, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Stagg, !1r. ColLins, Mr. Carter, Dr. Twomey, Mr. Dawe, Mr. Patterson, Mr. Aylward, &.

Woodrow, D::. 4\fcNicholas, and Mr. Saird. SOliE HON. ME...'iBERS: Hear , hear! MR. SPEA.ICE.R: Wi~l ehe Clerk hand me the results? I declara the motion lost. The main question, second reading. The hen .. member for rorngat Mountains. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WAR.R:e:N: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for a fe..., moments on t."lis .bill" I .believe >:.they are the t:::ueat words I have heard. from the !1inister of Municipal Af!airs and Housing (Mr. Wi.."ldsor} who was on television, I think, it was Wednesday or Thrusday night, when he 3413

November 26, 1979 Tape 1363 ?K - 2 Mr. warren: made a comment on Hear and Now , he said, *We will defeat this bill regardless. We will defeat:. this six month hoist. And. when it comes before the House we will pass it." So here is a., example that regardless, before there was a full study done with the municipalities 1 his mind was made up, when this bill was brought in, that:. regardless it is going to be passed. 3414

November 26, 1979 Tape 1364 EC - l MR. "'ARREN: !ir. S~ea.lcer, tnere are a couple of thinqs there t.~at: ! am in favour of .Number one is 3ection 527. ~"hen the e~ection is called. in mid-November, any resident: in a community for t.hi~I days prior to t..,a election is ellqib~e to vote. NOW, under the o~d act it was ninety days. So l:lti.s part of this ace, I atr1 completely in agreement with because, as you know, in past municipal elect:ions, residents living in an area usually moved in ehere at the opening of a. school year and they were not eligible to vote. Mr. Speaker, my colleague from Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) mentioned Sec'tion 21, :he vacanco; of a. mayor. When the mayor for personal. reasons or any other reason desiC.es to resign, even after bei..nq in the Clair for only a. short time, the deputy mayor automatically fills t:.."le slot whet."ler he wants it or not. Mr. Spea.ker, that is a burd.en on the deputy !llayor. He is thera t.o fill in in the absence of the mayor but. nee for probably t.."u:ee and one-half yean. I think it should be up to t.he council J:O have an election by the qcod graces of the minister and have their own mayor e:~ect:ed. !ir. Speaker, I am very conce::led wie.~ Sec:tion 233.

It may sotmd very ::ninOr. !t is concerning curfew.

Section 233: 'The council may make regula~ons prescribing ~~e hours during whie."1 ch.lld.ren below the aqa set out: in. tile regulations a.re per.aittad on a public road, pa.r.k., place of a.musement or public assembly, wh.et.her alone or in the company of a pare."lt, gua.rd.ian or other adu.l::. 1 Mr. Speaker, I would say that this is definitely intruding in people's ll.ves. I believe that the member for Hl.'I:!Xber West: (Mr. Bai.rd) could very ..,.ll remember tha.t Corner Brook tried to brin.q in such a cur!ew some years aqo and it pntty well backfired.. It is practically i.Jnpossib~e to bring in such.

an act. And here in tni.s part.ic:ular bil~, the minUter is saying, 1!At us bring in a curfew if the councils want to. 1 Mr. Chair.:aan, take, for example, a small community sue.~ as Admiral's Beach, St .. Mary's -The Capes. If M.rs. S:nit."l, is planning to go down to t.~e store at 8:30 P.M. and she wanes to take &J.onq her twelve year old kid because she finds it lonely wal.kinq on tile st:reets where there is no eleC'Criei ty, that could mean that the municipal 3415

November 26, 1979 Tape lJ64 EC - 2 MR. WA?.REN: council could come cut and say, 'Okay, M...~. Smith, eake your kid of! the sueet. He is not: all.owec! to walk down the road wit.~ you.' Mr. Speaker, I t.Unk it is qoinq a little bit too far, in pard.cular, saying that the council can decide ._.het."ler the kid can be a.c:cc:npanied by an adult. We have too many eases nov, :tt.

Speaker, where the qove.rnment of t..Us land is hold.inq hands ..,it:h tile people of t.'Us Province in the ..,ronq way. we saw a. bill going through third reading not too lonq ago on t.."le Ma.erimnial Ac:t. and I am afraid we ar-a qoinq to see this bill going through t.."le same way. Mr. Speaker, I believe it is high time for this government ... ;ranted, :."ley have a majority in t.h.e House, but let us not use t:hat majority in a way that is not.. always for the ._.ell ... being of the people of this land. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear , hear~ MR.. WARR.Elt: .!ir.

Speaker, I have asked an of!icial from the minister's depa.r-..mant to get me some 3416

November 26, 1979 'I'ape No. 1365 "" - l :m,. WARREll: s~atis~ics on ~~e population drop c£ 307 incorporated communities in the ?rov~~e. ! was told that it would take a long eime, he would not be able to get it for me. :ine. So within a ~c~er of an hour or so ! did get my own staff co Co it so it did not take ~~at long after all. I wane to Pring out co this House, and memCers on the opposite side who are not aware of it, that there are 117 communities in this Province rich less ehan SUO people, that is incorporated ~ommunities, wi~~ less ~~an 500 people. There are 89 communities wi~~ between 500 and 1,000 people.

And ~~ere are 49 communities between 1,000 and 2,000 people. And as we go up the scale the number gets smaller naturally and we only have 24 communities wi~~ populations over 5,000. Mr. Speaker, wi~~ respect ~o the property tax I want to illust.r3te t."lat these 307, I think. it is 307, or 309, 309 communitie~ that it is praceically impossible ~or those smaller communities, less t.h~~ 1,000 people, to survive. aow in the heck, Mr.

Speaker, could a comm~~ity of 11 people, I t..~ink the smallest:. incorporated co~m~.unity is 11 people, bring in a property tax t:.o look a!ter ~~e water and sewerage, and have finances to carry on as a community council! Those ll families, Mr. Speaker, I would estimate would be paying in excess of $700 a year property cax for this community of 11 people to survive. Mr. Speaker, r would like to go on further by going back to my district and also to part. of the distric't of the Minister of Rural, Aqricultural and Northern Development:..

In h.is disttict 1 also, we will find this example t.hat I a.:n going to illustrate now. In Makkovik we have 14 or 16 homes owned ~y private individuals. Private people have split their bow, they have raised their money, they o~~ their own homes. Now, the other 60 and 70 homes there are owned by gover:'l.ment. 'I'hose homes are owned by government:.. The people are paying taxes - excuse ~e, ~~e people do not pay any kind of taxes, •• ..< 3417

November 26 ,- 1979 Tape No. 1365 !1M - 2 they are paying a small 1:10n1: .. '1.ly .:ent:.. But ~~s ace says that government are not responsible for taxes. Hew, do we expect tile Ander sons, and the ~cNeils in ~ovik to pay prope=ty tax and the other 70 or BO families ~~ere noc to pay any taxes at all because ~~ey are living in homes that belong to the provincial goverr~nt? A..l.l P.ON. MEMBER: own homes'? MR. WAR.RE.'i: an ex~eme example - AN HON. MEMBER: .\ good question, how ~:~any O';ffl t.~ei= 12 or 14. Take Davis Inlet, for example, probably Did ~,e minister hear that?

No, maybe he is not paying too much attention now. But anyhow, in Davis Inlet there are 99 per cent, Mr. Speaker, 99 per cent - in fact 1 there is one home in Davis Inlet that is privately owned, every other horae is a home belonging to t.'lis provincial government. Now, 'iO'b.ere are the taxes going eo come from? !s t.h.e R.C. School Qoard going to pay all the taxes for t.hat community? Mr. Speaker, I believe when the miniseer brought in this bill he was eit.~er half asleep or fully asleep. SOME HCN. MEMBERS: H.ea.r, hear~ MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I.a.m su:e his predecessor knows the same thing.

He has been on t::.be Labrador Coast and. probably he did noc k.~ow at that time whether ~~e hcuses Celonged to government or they were. privately owned. MR. STAGG: Grants in lieu of taxes . M..tt. STIRLING: Does that mean that you are agreeing? Does that mean that you are agreeing to that? ::;rants in lieu of taxes. 3418

November 26, 1979 A.~ HON. MEMBER: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKE..·~t: Tape No. 1365 'les or no? 1es or no? Answer and say. Order, ?lease! N."i - 3 MR. WAR.REN: ,-tr. Speaker, r would give leave for an answer from -the 'member -fOr Stephenv;.lle (Mr. Staqq)_if he \lOUld like to give an answer? MR. STAGG: {Inaudible). Okay. M.r. Speaker, we can go through other communities in Nort.~ West River, which the Minister of Rural and :l.qricultural Development (Mr. Goudie) represent.s. We have t•No communit.ies there, a split. e~ity, an Indian side, and a non­ indian side. On the Indian side there are four houses t.,at::. are not owned 3419

November 26,1979 Tape No. 1366 AH-l MR.WAP.P.EN: by qo\•ernment. What happens in t.,is place? Do ~,e residents on one side of the river pay for the whole community? Mr. Speaker, I think there have been questions now to t.i-te minister from qroups in North West Ri...-er asking for that camnunity to be divided up into two municipalities. Hr. Speaker, I can go on and on. You ea.n qo to any eommur.it"!, you ean go to Trini~J Bay and find a community of 350 people, you have probably one or two stores and t.'te people there own all their own homes but each day, day by day,tb.ey are just getting alonq.

Probably their annual income is about $5 .. 000 or $6,000. Are they expected to pay prt:~perty tax and the c::ommunity council . - in their COII:Iftuni ty expect:ed to survive on the property tax? businesses. The bigqest one is t.,e one that is operated by this qove::mnent, rougilly to the tune of $2.5 million a yea:.

There are two other smaller businesses there that are at least making a living. ' Now, when this property tax comes into beinq the government operated store there that is making over S2 million a year dces not pay any taxes to the municipality but meanwhile Mr. !vans and .totr. !Jaynes who O'Wtl two small stores ue going to have to pay taxes to t."le municipalities to help the tmmicipalities survive. This is really unfair, Mr. Speaker, and I believe the minister should seriously look at it. Mr. Speaker, I believe I have an ext:a bit of t.:ime leit yet. I ..,ant to talk on

Section 310, R.eqional Government. I believe i! the minister would recollect baek a fev months or probably a year to last January, the words I am going to say nov may come into his mind. Anyway, it says here that the I.J.eutenant-Gove.rnor in Council may by order constitute a regional council for any region. Incluclinq St. John's. MR. WA.RRE:N: Including St. John's. Mr. Speaker,last year every C'01ftmUnity council in Labrador, the ones wi tb. a population of l,Soo- 9,000 dO'<m to a population of 217, every eoa:munity council in Labrador from Nain to Labrador City down to L'Anse-au-Cla.ir in the Straits they met in Nort:h \lle~t River, they combined, they formed a eom.bined 3420

november 26,1979 Tape ~o. 1366 AH-2 MR.WARRE:N: council because t..,_ey •Janted to ;et more recoqnition from gove.r:1ment. They wanted to have a lcok at reqional goverrunent whichever ~orm it may take, they wanted to have a look at it and as of yet t.~ey have received not.~ing but a negative attitude from ehe present =inister. The present minister has said to me in t..,is House when I asked the question - we a.re paying the municipalities, the Federation of ~unicipalities x nU%11ber of dolla.rs to operate and we a.re not going to support the combined councils. The '!ninister said that to me. Hr.

Speaker 1 here were a group of people 1 here were the councils from Minisinakva in Labrador get:ting te<;ether and wanting the government to pay recoqnition to them and wanting t.."le government to look and see it it was teasible - t."1ey did not ask for it. -see if it was fea.sible to have a regional government or some other form of a cOilll"ined qoverrune:nt in Labrador and as yet t.~is government has not paid them five eents to I!!!Ven operate to pue a brief toqether. Mr. Speaker 1 now I have left one side of the coin• and on the other side of the coin,

Section 310 says t."lat if the Lieutenant-Governor decides to constitute a regional eounci1 1 ~~ey may do so. Now, here were twenty-five or thirty people eleeted democratically, elected by ~.,_e ~oters from the different councils and then elected by the councils canbined 1 coming to the government for help and asking them to look into it 3421

;iowtWar 2.6, 19 79 !W.. G. ~VA.V.EN: anci now on the ot.."l~ar b.a.nC., •on. no ~at is not right, we ~ill appoint so and so , whe~•er the people want t.'let: or not: tJ.~ ie is .1 C.C'..;nq:racling of our t!emoc:ratic societ.y t.o expect, on orders from the tttinister, to say t.o sGtr.e.bod.y in Nain, ':·;e woulC. lik~ for you to come on t..'ti.s regional. council' • I t.b.ink it should. be up to the people of !lain who t.hey want - SCME iiOti. !1E:·!.EER.S : Hear, hear: - it shocili be '.JP co t.'le j?eopl~ of Cha:1ce Cove •..;he they want, not up to the c:U.nist.er who he appoints. Mr.

SpeaJ:er, I ant sure t.~e tr.i..."lister will agree and I a.m. sure t!:le for::er minister will agree also :.'1<1t Curing the past oieveral years - I <U:1 sure the:t a...'"'l! not list2ning, :-u:. Speaker, but probal;ly t!:lei will read Hansard tom.or=o~ - maybe they will agree wit.."l ca thJ.e during t."te past several years :.."ley have recel.ved some qood. delaga­ tions from. councils ~oug~1out th.is Province.

And I believe scme of the delegations that came !rom the various councils l:b.roughoue t.'lis ?rovinca came in l•;ith a genuine desire to sit down with t..'le lt'.ini.ster and talk about the ?rcb:.-e:ns i.ac:k in t..1.eir commlUlities. t\nd, in lots of cases, as a member of one of t..'le councils in nappy Valley/Goose Bay said we have receive~ an excell~nt reception and ... a we.nt back to t.'le cow:;.uni:ies •.dth some t.b.Utqs and probal::ly the potential of get.ting projec-:.s: that we ·~¥ould not have gotten if ..,.e did. not cot::".e in.

Now 1 my point is t.hae if t..~s new tax Act. come.s into ~eing where an tne sm.a.l.ler cc~Wlities going to fine revenue to have a Celegat.ion come in a.nd sit down wit~ t::le lr.iniS1:.er and d.iscuss 4 community probl.l!.m.? Mr. Speaker, I am just thinking' of pro.Ca.bly tl'.kinq the coanunity of Mud Lake in QY hon. friend's district tnat wished to come in here 45 a community of about 214 people t to sit Cown ;.;i th t,;,.e mi.n.i.ste: t.o discuss some proi:ller.:s. riot..., ehe properey tax is not going to allow the~r. 1 unless they are going to ux th..a 214 residents t=) the hilt. 3422

;;ow.r.ber 26, 1979 Tape :.o. 13tH D\·0 - 2 MR. G. WAP..ru::t: Mr. Speaker, take a communJ. ty council in <·lar'.t' 1 s iia!:bour •i.Uch is ver.r d.:.fficU:t: to get out of, you have to fly out:. to Goose ~ay fi:st or to St. Ant..hony, from St. Anthony to Gander, from Gander to St. John's, it would probably take you t'lro ciays to get h&re and the expense of hotel accomr.cciations, t.~e ex;?ense of air travelling- whic.."l is the ::.ost expensive any-..here in Nort:l ~rica..

I \t.Ould lUe tc know, pro:ba.bly the ~rJ.n.iste.r could taite a note of it anci when he cioes fi:.ish c.p the cie.ba.te he coulci cor::e b<1ck wiUt an answer; where are these com:nuniti9s going to get the funding to come in and sit dcwn 'Nith t.."l.e hon. !':tinister as t."'.ey have C.one Cefore1 Su.~ly goodness ehe ~r~nister Coes not eX?ect a cc~unity council of ~ix, a c:ounc.il .... no qct. electeC. to cough iJP SSOO or SGOO. I tr.ea.n su:ely he is not expect.ing c."lat is he? Mr. Speaker, there is another part of t!lis Act that nas an effe~ on the st:.aff :)f the various cotr.:nunity councils.

Thl.s Act;., in par:.icular, ttas wry much to Co with t.."1.e staff. !-low I nave been in- contac't wit.'l, I ~h.i.nk it is eight or nine ';o"'n managers t:troug~.out ~he Province atlcl they have .. .ls of toda:t tlley cia not even imow t:..'1at t..1.is t..'lJ.ng is Ceing C:ehaeed. 't~e1 :ta.ve. not .avan ::eceived a copy of it and t!".t:tre are. par:s in t:.'lJ..:i that a::e affecting the staff, af!ecting the to ... n clerk, the manager and ~ey have not .received a. copy of t.'tis Act. !~r.

Speake::, I wculci suggest to the :tiniste.r c."lat alt..'lcugh the six monc."l. ttoist has been Cefeated 1 ! *Ould su;gest. t:.at more copies 'o<iCulci go out to t..~e communities, to the managers .uod to the councillors outllning t.'lat. t.'l.is Act is before the neuse. r.as ;my corresponc!ence been orv;oinq with mayors and t.~e tawn manaqe.rs asking for feedback to t.ltis Ac't or was this through t...'te :eqional municipalities? Mr. Speaker, 3423

November 26f 1979, Tape 1368, Page 1 -- apb there are a lot of conmrunities, incorporated communities within this Province which did not attend the last ~cipality conference in Gander. They did noe attend ehe one before that:. They do not kr..cw that this act exists and d.o not knOW' the implications. They do not know what is goinq to be brouqht into effect. Mr. Speaker, I am wonderinq if the whole idea behind t.ltis act is to turn people from getting involved in municipal politics? That is t.."le question I have been asking myself since this act was brought into the House.

If this act comes into being it means that a small community like Joe Batt:.' s Ar.n or Fogo Island, for example. is going to be charged fi!ty or sixt:y dollars a year, whatever the case may be. Is ~~t going to cause friction in these small communities? The peOple are going to have to pay ~lte property tax in order for them to have a town council. Now, if they do not pay the property tax they are going to be taken to court and so on, the councils will not collect their money a.ntlas a result will fold.

I a.m. just. wondering if - I am sure it is not - i£ Municipal Affairs and Housing is trying to renege on the small communities, tr;inq to say to the str.aller communities, 'I! you fellows do not pay your taxes, if you fellows cannot SU%'Vive on your own, to heck with you.' Because it appears that that is what happening. I was speaking to two people from a community council in a small re::note area of this Province this morning and th.Ls is what they had to sayf 'My goodness, what are we going to do if we cannot collect t.~e taxes from the so and so people in t.'le comttrWlity? How are we going to survive? Mr.

Speaker, I believe it is going to come out - in the municipality directory there are five or six in there inactive. I am just r..tenderingf in two or t:hree years down the road, how many of those 309 municipalities ·...-ill ~ecome inactive because of these regulations? Mr. Speaker, I believe

November 26, l979, Tape lJ68, Page 2 -- apb MR. WAR..~: there 3hould be more seriows consideration given to t.r-..is act. ! am sure :..~e:e a!:'e backbenchers on the ot:her side of the House Who have reservations about this act. There are ministers .... ho have reservations about this act. Let us not allow the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the cabinet decide on the fueure of this Province, we should decide. SOME HOU. MEMBERS: MR. SPE.AKER(Baird) : the Environment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MRS. NE"IffiOOK: Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Hear, hear~ Mr.

Speaker, r do noc wish to speak at lenqc..~ but ! have to say that it is with pleasure that I support. the new municipalities bill. Most of our towns in Newfoundl.and, and Gander is one of th·ese, have been de.w.lllui.ng and waiting for a revision of the Local Government Act of 1972, for quite a number of years. '!'hey have been crying for more autonomy and cont...-ol of their own affairs, managing their own financing and making their own decisions. I 1o10uld like t.o mention just a few of the improvements provided under this new act. rt would take bou.rs to discuss all of them.

Under this new act a town council does not have to seeure the minister's approval of its budget. A council does not have to qet approval to borrow unless it. is for more than 20 per cene of the t:.o\lffi 's revenue or for capital purposes. A council does not have to get the mi.nister 1 s approval to set its property tax, business tax or poll tax rate. A council does not have to obt:ain approval to grant an exemption or partial. exemption or a deferral. of taxes. 3425

!fOVembe.r 26 1 1979 Tape No. 1369 so - l I <Jould also like ::c poL"lt. out -:.hac under this act a tcwn council is given b:oader scope t.o make :egula.tions witblut prior approval. '!'he council can, under this act., pick SAlaries without prior approval. A counc~l zay designate remuneration for mayors and/or councillors h.ibie to a.r. idea not even entertained by gove..rnmen-=. before. A council may charge -:axes on U.'"loccupied ar.d unused land owned. by certain exempt groups, organizations and. churches, etc. And another good concept is ~~e five year forecast of a.neicipa eed. capital expendit'.lre requirements .. ! note there has been disagreement expressed tc

Section 92, subsection (1) •Wherein a council or a particular councillor using tnanies for purposes otiler than ':.hose whl.ch t:he money was approved. by t.."le minister is to be accountable for such money.... Although this may appear to be a severe action to Uka, nevert.."leless it will make councillors more conscious of ch.e responsibility they have in making dec::i.sior.s. And I am sur~ that the minister in enforcing this clause will give every consideration to all the circ:umst:.ances.

I hear some disagreement wie.1. imposing the proper':".! ca.x in towns and c::ommunieies \ol'here. res~der.t.s have water and se\ier services only. I would like to poL"l'C cue t.hae property tax in such t.owns can not be i."lstitueed within cont.hs.

It ..,ill take years and yeus for 111 t:he properties to be assessed and. even when t:.."ley are the new rate is deter.nined by t.."le amount: o! money needed by t..'te com:nunity or town so that: that property t.a.x could well be set at a figure ..,hich would total no more then the poll tax or a service fee being charged. a.e tilat:. time, especially since with th.is type of revenue there will be a commensuratl!!l grant:..

I have heard some residents o! towns complaining that by paying Sl2 a mont:.h .. a e.ocal of Sl44 a yeax - a.nd. to this is added. a 560 poll tax or service fee that. ehey are, in fact, paying a total of 5204 a year and that by paying t.h.is amount they are beir.q charged. :uore than some people in other towns being taxed on the property assessment basis and they feel enat. a propert.y tax would be ~uch less for them. 3426

•~ovec.ber 2b, 1979 so -- ~ .·10unt:a.ins, ne mentioneu a J.os.::o of r~vtJ:nue on ~ropert.ies owned by government:. .-:ow, Ga.nadr nas quic.e a. number o.t :i1.1ch properties, 'i,Uite a num.be.r a..'la it is a large chunk oi ou: revenue ana '.¥e receive a grant: in lieu of ~es. So I am sure ~'lac this coulQ - :-!.?... STIRLI:lG: ,.;ill ehe :ne::wer ?eoit a. ~>.~.es:.ion? ;~. ii. H?.WiiOOK: Y'es. aR.

ST!:U.I;~G: .,ouJ.d. the minister a.gre111 t..'la.e t.ae Province should oo t.he same t:ling t.nat. t.ne feaeral goverru;1ent. coes in Ganaer on provincial ~overnmant owneu property? dell, I co no:. kr~w if I ent.irelt agree unaer a.ll t..'le c:.rcu::ua:.ances because I t.."\inic some t.c....-ns ro=cei ve other con.sid.erauons buc I ...auld say wnere eae.re is no ot.."ler consiaerati::m, t.h.en t.ne Provl.nce snou.ld. pay a granc in liew of ca..xes. M.,q,,. .-t. <ii~SOR: Show ~e a case for co~~Qera.Cl.on.

Unci.ft.r normal gra.nt.s (ina.ud.ibl.el cil.lt. is wnere they get. revenue gran~. operating grants, snow clearing grot.nt.s (inaudible) a.nd. everye.ltinq. :1RS • H. NE'n'C:OOK: otner consid.erat.ions given.

Mit. rl • .,jl:ID~OR: HRS. n. ;-tE'"l100K: WeJ.J., t $aia wne.re ~"tare are no (Inauaiblel unoer considerat.ion. nou tilat tne Oepar't.menc of Social ~ervJ.ces 'Jill poi:f caxes for r~$il:ien:.s who a.re depeno.ent:. on social assistance a.ru1 .t t:nink t.."'lis is a. gooa. ~ve also. :t do think that :...>us new act. is a step in tae right:. ciirectJ.on it. is ;ai:nple ami 1.1nd.erst.a.nda..ble. t w.ll re.:nem.ber S.:ltw. o:.: the cont.raciic:tor'/ clauses in che Local Government:. Act. a...'ld t.r.ank ;oo<mess t..."lese will De clarified. u.nller the new act..

This new l).Ct:. d.eals w1.:.h different. cat.egories of ::tunicipa.lit:ies, escablisninq m< .re concise 3427

November 26, 1979 Tape 1370 ?K - 1 Mrs. Newhook: procedures for regional and servi=e sr~ring areas, although ! would have liked to see a little more autonomy for towns, of say, 10,000 to 15,000 population, which have all of the expertise provided by compcrollers and town managers, ~~ci office managers, and the.ir town engineers, and thei.r public service depar't:ments, t."leir town planning, and Local Improvement Associations and ..,.hat not.

However, I can see chat: we have to try our wings before we learn how to fly, and so,therefore 1 I look forward to the minister • s wise deci:oions in this regard in the future. I commend him for the mighty task of comFilinq t:.,_is new Act. And I give it my endorsement. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEA.~R (BAIRD) : The hen. member for St. Barbe. MR.

T • BENNETT : Mr. speaker, ! realize that the introduction of Bill sa or the introduction of any tax may noe be the end of the world; but I would like to suggest that the introduction of proper1:y taxes in tiny lit-:.le communities may be the end of rural and. outpor-:. living in Ne-wfoundland. It might very well be- t:."le end to outport li.fe. Not very long ago, or I should say, just recently, and since :his government have been in power, its approach has beed freeze on spending, as is so evident with the Fisheries Loan Board.

Wh.ile the government implements. introduces 1 while they decide they are noc going to spend any more money1 they pcint the finger at ti.>'lY litt.le people in rural areas, and they say, 1 You must increase spending: Now I also realize that this is not goi.'1g to come into effect; immediately. It is going w take a little while to blend this into th.e structure of ' ow: society so that govern•Jent can reap the benefits and communities, hopafully 1 will reap the -'~nefits of property taxes.

I feel mysel! that people in che rural areas mosc certainly have not been well enough informed about the implications of this bill, and the property tax. I speak.basically on the tax, I express an opinion basically on the tax because I must say there are quite a few things within the bill that are acceptable and desirable, and, of course, there is an awfuJ !ot. in there t.ha::. is just an override 3428

NOvember 26, 1979 Tape 1370 PK - 2 Mr. 9ennet't: from origi..-:.al council governing and local councils. This qoverr.ment. went. into power, if ! understand correctly, on the assumption tha. t :here would not be an increase in ~es of any fo,rm. They went into power, in my opinion, in d.isguise, because now th.ey are coming in through the back door t.o implement a tax on property in rural areas, which are the 1i.fe' s blooci of the Province, rural areas are the life blood of this Province. People i:1 the of St.

John's, corner Breok, Grand Falls, Gander, and :::IV.:!it of the larger centres where we have a tax base, where we have industry, where we have a real cash flow probably, these people could stand higher taxation. But I am convinced t.fo..at the people in the rural areas of this Province cannot seand it, people who are depending on the !ishing boats. MR. STAGG: How do the fellows qet rich who are there, t.he fellows on the (inaudible). MR. a.ENNE'r!': I do not l<:now what. you were doing before you ~e in here '!ir. Stagg', I .sm. sure, or Mr. Member for St.ephenville, the hen. member.

I worked in a tiny little community and I carried on a business, a very successful business, I might add •. It might be one of the reasons that I became elected to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. ME..":mE..ttS : Hear, hear ! MR. BENNETT: Because the people in t.h.ar. little ccmmuni-ey, and in that rural district of St. Barbe believed you know, they look at me and they say, "Well 1 t...~at fellow has been successful i.'l business, I wonder if government is not business?" Anci in their wisdom they gave :a.e a vote ar.d here I am. It might be eo their detriment, tttind you 1 I do not know.

Given a few years of hard work, I am satisfied to work for the district, I am. satisfied to work for the government. 3429

November 26, 1979 Tape lJ71 E:C - 1 MR., 9£:mETT: I really Co not have a lot of hang-ups about a political ma,chine. I really do balieV'II!! in people doing a job. If I wan1: to a:ploy a carpenter, I etnploy t:he best one and pay him SlO a.n hour. I wculd like to go back to what the bon. minister - I carried on a business in a tiny rural. area, and t pioneered. it1 in t.he form of a ser.1ice station, t:b.e first one ever in thAt areA, and a mceel, the first one in that ue11. And. every little bit of tax was a burden. ::;: was payinq S40 a mont:h for a sloppy water system in my business. A."l HON .. ME.'!BER: MR.

BENNETT: AU HON.. MEMBER: MR.. BENNETT: 1\N HON. ME.."!BER: MR. BENNETT: tllu? AN SON. MEMBER; MR. BENNETT: A mont."l? A month - S40 a mont.~. Where? In Daniel's Harbour. (Inaudible). Yes, $40 a mont.'l. What is wrong wit.'\ {Inaudible) lot of money. t did not complAin. It s1:oppad me searting the old generators and pumping up water !rom a well~ s~-ing up a pump to pump water and supply people who :night: happen to be along to stay at ary motel oV'f!l:rnigh.t. But every tax that: was intlic::ted on my operations gave IN! a shucider and made me ra&li.:e I have no business tr"/i.'lq to pioneer.

I have no businus work.i.nq in Da.niel' s H.a.tbour in a. business, I should. be. in COrner Brook or St. Jcb.n 1 s where there is some real eash flow. But you hen. qen't..lemen who travelled that: Northern ?eninsula, you needed a plaea to stay and we provided that place eo stay. We pumped our own ~ater until ve were fortunate enough to have a water system so-called ins'talled, and I paid $40 a month wat.er tax for t."le m.ud and t."l.e d.L'"'1:. whe~ I h.ope ve are qoinq to have a better system installed very shortly, prope~y t.a.x or no property tax. 3430

November 26, 1979 Tape lJ7l EC - 2 M..l:t. BENNE'l"T: Rural areas, Mr. Speaker, already pay through tile nose, more t..l-tan the cities, 4lld what do t..~ey get out of it besides gar!:! age collection? They do not. get che medical services, they do not. get the communications. Speaking of communications, they are lucky if t..~ey qat one channel television. The telephone system in many cases, leaves a lot to be desired. T!ley &re pioneers in their own riqht..

And if t!ley did not go out and pioneer a.nd live in these communities 4lld develop t..~e fishery - work in a pioneering manner and do without things Uke medical and lc.gal services, Your Honour .. if the people in these areas were to qo into the cit.ies and say, _No, we are not qoinq to develop, :nost governments would cry to encourage people to ;o out and develop t.~ese rural areas - I t..'Unk t..~ey would - to go out and exploit the fish and the timber and the land so that •.te could ship into the eities and into the uta.in centres.

And now we are 9Qinq to dest..-oy that by placinq property ta.x on a lot of these entrepreneurs. MR. STAGG: Tell us about. resett.lement. MR. BENNETT: I will. Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, this propert:y tax is resettlement in disguise in the worst k.ind of "lAY. You are going to see more people, Mr. Speaker, !'!lOve out of rural areas and into the u.r.ban areas a.nd the Fort McMurray and Grand Prairie and Alberta and Toronto areas. 'lou a.re going 1:0 see more of tb.etn because they are not: goinq to be able to live there and maint:a.in their properties.

And !.hope that:. when t.~e hon. mini..ster establishes the rate of tax to be i:lflicted on people in rural areas, I just hope that he U a. poor ma.n voddnq for the :a.inimum waqe so that ha will have soue c:ompassion in his heart:. for t!le people who Uve. and work and trr to maintain a. decen1: I standard of living in thos• tiny communities that you are qoinq to inflict It is going to cause people in those rural areas to h.a.ve not so attracti"~e hou.es, not so comfortable homes as they have had in the past. I would suggest. that. they 'Jill not continue to upgrade and build better properties. 3431

November 26, 1979 Tape lJ7l EC - 3 MR. BENNETT: I would like for t.'le hon. the H.ini.ster of Municipal. Affairs and Housing (Mr. N. Windsor), to realize property values in those communi ties are not t!le same as they are in tha la.rqe:r cities - in t..'le urban areas. and in areas ltfhere you 3432

november 26, 1979 Tape No. 1372 GH• 1 !-!F.. BENNETT: have indust::y. ?~ope~/ values are not the same. 'lou build a house in Trout River, Cow Head, ?lum ?oint, any of these .. th.is is e.l;.e a.:ea I represent so ! know these areas very we~l - you build a property e.l;.ere for S40,000 and if you want to s~ll it next year, you are lucky if you can sell it.

You will not gee SJO,OOO. !f you build a home in BellbU-~s a!'ld it cost§ 0 you S40 ,000 ,which it is c:ettinc: to be, a few of e.l;.ese homes built today .. $30,000 over a period of a good number of years - they are not built right overnight, because ~~ey have not got ~l;.e mo~gage system in ~~y of these places to accommodace the !inancing .. but if you build in Bellburns and it cases you S30,~00 and you ~~ to sell tomorrow, you are lucky if you can sell, let alone get $20,000 for it and it just cost you S30,000. tf you build it in St.

John's and it cost you SJO,OOO, tomorrow it is on the market for SSO,UOO - appreciation - and you can keep on building properties in areas like these, a.nd you can have tb.e appreciation go into your pocke~ook, if you like, bue when you sell property into the rural areas you are not going to have appreciation, you are going to have depreciation, and you "<iill have paid. tax, tax, tax plus - MR.s<rAGG: Liberal philosophy. !<t.tt. BENNETT: That is Liberal philosophy.

That is I do not care whose philosophy it is, I do not care whose philosophy, I am just concerned about a government, Liberal or TO~/ or otherwise, inflicting property tax on einy communities and it is going to hit these people like a bombshell. It is going to hit them in the rural areas like a bombshell, and you people will not know wh~t hit you when the next election eomes around. and I start using thi.s in my disttic't.. You will not know what hit you, because people are going to be - they are going to be very adamant. They are going to be upset. They ar'3 going :o be very concerned. MR.

MOORES: heard in silence. MR. WAP.ttN: (Inaudible) a man has a righe :o be Unusual fer hl.m. 3433

November 26, 1979 Tape No. 1372 GH-2 I want: -.:ty di:.;t:rict :o know .,.,hat goes on in the l:iouse of Assembly, ...,hat goes on in t.lteir ;overr.mene., and ;:: think those people, the electorate, Tories and Li.berals and HOP, are all a.llke, they are all taxpayers and they need to know. And they are all voters and they should know. I do no e. think they a:e :::eing given time in the dis~ice.s to know what: is involved in ~~at piece of paper. H!!.THOHS• MR. BENNETT: They are not being told either.

They are not being told. ! am a little disappointed we are not gee.tinq more coverage from the press on t.~is" again. I wish we could ;et more coverage. I have called six communities, mayors in ~~e dist:rict, I have called six i~ the St. Barbe dise.rict, and they do not know what I am. talking about. i/hen ! mentioned ~~is bill and the introduction of tax, they do not know what is happening. I wish ~~ey did know.

So today I have asked ~!tat we should have somebody sent out into the district.. :::t will probably be too late for t..~em to express an opinion over t..'le air•ays, ~'le news media- because it ~ill probably be gone through the House of Assembly. I am suggesting that. our rural areas do without.. I know because ! lived it.

They do '"'it:hout so many ~~ings, and if you axe going to tr; to bring them up and inflict the tax on t.'l.eir properties, on t..,eir barns and on their shops and their homes in small rural areas where ~,ey have not yet got decent schools to go to - I was pretty happy to see a bill, the Minister of Education's bill on education - all that money - t would like to see about that much spent on education in tfr'/ district - $12 million. We proba.bly do not need all that in one shot, but spread over a five-year period we need it for sure. We need a lot of money. We have several schools t..'l4t. need replacing.

So, ! feel that people have not. got the services, and I feel ~~t people are not. going to have the services in small areas where you have !ifty families and where you have, yes, up to sao families j?robably. I know that we do have, in ~'le district: of St. Barbe, ..,e do have two, mind you, ~JO and only ~~o lucrative communities where there is a fair cash flow. I th.in.k. probably, most hen. gentlemen 3434

z;ove:::.ber 26, 19 79 'I'ape ~lo. 1373 are aware Pore au Chcix is a lucrative, viable, geed cash flo• co~~ar.i~y, a ;ood fishery. Daniel• s Ha::bour has got a good. t.ax base, it has goc a mine but when you come into Cov head and you cx:me into Trout.

River and you get up to ?lutn Point and you sae t.he way that these people have to struggle ·for a livlli.ood 1 r ;.;ould not •.;ant to be :..'l.e l:'.inister who \ltould inflict tax on the properties tha.1:. t.~ey have _?ut together by tne .s-..eat of their brow. !ol.ost of t!'!.e hor.-.es they have built come from t..~eir own labours. ilith the ski-Coos and tne.ir chain :;a.,..s t..'1ey go into the bush .,.rhen t:.n.ey can qec a perr..it, if they ca.n get a. pe::tnit to ::ut 1 U.ey so in and t..~ey cut t..,e t:.it'.ber and they build eheir homes ar.d as t."ley c!o and t..'ley put the car?et on the floors t .. b.ey pay t..'1e tax a.nci they it on the gasoline to haul it in~ tne rural areas. :tow, ~ith tile inflationar; structure that we haw L'l this C01Jlltrj', not cnl:r in tne Pro~ce but in the cOuntry generally,wit.~ the inflationarJ spiral t.."ta.t we nave on· t.''1.e cost of living, I do r.ot t.'link t:..'l.at the government needs to introduce anymore tax on.espeeially ru:al areas, tiny areas .3ecause ever; gallon of gas if you go back to a ?W'lP next week you de not knew if there. is going to be anotiler ten cents but, regardless, the gow::nr.ent. gets their cut just the same.

If ycu tluy a hoarC., a cal."'?et, a shingle anything ·..there the ll ?er centi is invelved the governttent reaps the benefits. Gover:ur.ent. has not got to inflict EnOre tax, government.' s just automatically ge1:. more :.ax. I k.no""' that we are demandi.ng more from government..

I know that people are demanding and we want the services anci we need the services 1 Cut to go out and take Ule bite off the table of the little fellow in some place like Portland Creek or Trout Ri ve:r and make him pay property tax on a hcae or on a little two-bit chip stand he is t.rJin9 to create 1 I cannot support it: r just ca.nr.ot! 50!-JE EON. MEHSE?.S : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: (BAIRD) Order, please! 3435

Novetrber 26, 1979 'I'a.pe ::o. 1.173 We ~ave a lo~ of people who ;resenel'l live in urban areas, we nave a lot of people who live protably in St. John's who caree from around t.he bay ar..d t::.oey are =.uilcii.nc; '!."leir sec:onci ho~r.e, their re:tire:ment place. 'rhey are living in the city. of st. John's or corner a rook and they are:. paring the eax on Uleir property. I ;ay a lot of tax in Corner Brook.! have a tiny piece of properey and I pay sufficient tax tl1ere in t."le city of co:ner arook·I have r.ot.1.inc; left in':.t.1.e rural area. Mr.

St:-ea.ker, contrary to what t.he hon. gentleman way over in t..1.e corner say!:-1 I do not know why 10u ha._<>e him over in th.e corner I think. O.e should !Je Ui? around t.he front sot:'.e..,here - AU i-.ON. Mt~.SER: !i..tt. 'r. 3E.'!~1E'l"r: Pore ~u Port is a good place. But contrart to what ••e was sug;ezti:tS" in a. subtle 'May, I have liquidated any business intereses tna.t 1 ilave so I coulC work for a district and wor~ a few ye3rs at least. For a f~w years of rey life I would like to work for the people of the district that I represent.

And eo supt:ore the infliction of tax on to the bclck.S of the people who cannot make a decene living for t.ner.selves in :ny ciistrict, to me that:. is no ..,·ay of ~ing t.:.1e job t."lat I nave Oeen electe:c! to do. So you must unC.erstand ·•hy I at". so opposed to inflicting tax on people in rural areas. 'l'o me it is a terrible, terrible t.':d.ng eo Q.o!

And what 1 ~eareed ~ say a little earlier 1 so ·ma.r.y people and undoubtedly probably ilalf of t.'le hon. ladies and gentleman here, members in this bouse alread:t have started to c::e.aee, cievelop properties in ruZal areas where they r::ign t retire to at. a later da_te. ~ll, they are luck~, they cight very ""ell he getting income enough to support it.

But we have fellows working d.cwn on the waterfront and in ot.ner sources of e:nployt:'lent, in the ...,.arehouses and theJe people ·.oant fa.IJ: play and t:hey 1o0ant to go out and have a second heme '.lh.:re t.l-tey can retire back to ... hen t..'ley are olC.er. AnC if they are goi."lg to be paying $200 or $300 t~ on t.~at property it is going to discourage them from having a. place to tUde away when they get old and want. to be left alone. w.a have been recognized too long as a have-noe. Provi."lce and I ean.not 3436

November 26, 1979 Tape Ho .1374 RAl ~R. T. BE!-lNETT: see where this is going to improve c:ondi tions. It might improve cont!i tions in ~e bigger centres like the city of St. John's, Corner Brook, and Grand FalltJ:, it might very wall • .tt might very 'llell take sane of the tax hurden off some of t.he larger areas anc! spree.d it into the communities. It. might also make us in the rural tiny little areas, do wit.h less i! there is any vay ve can do wit~ less, because all we get, bAsically, in rural areas, in St.

Barbe ~iserice tor the dollars that we pay in tax at the moment,... juse lll:lout all we qet, a.nj"J'ay, is a ga.'"':bage collection. we have many places along the coast of St.

Barbe district where we have no water systems, we have ~any places ~ere we have half-developed, hal!-eomplete, half-finished water systems· ';fe have about two or three seloierage systems in th.e Cisuict along there and I understand that if we want to have these systems int...-oduced to our communities we are going to have to be prepared to pay for it, to pay·for the tax and we are just !!Ot able to afford to do it, not able to affOrd it on our incomes t.lta1; we have in those tiny communities, where we work six months or t.'lree mont.,s 1 if we are lucKy, or t'W'O weeks if we are lucky. In that dis• trict of St.

Barl:le at tb.e _:,resent 1 and I have done this stuCy myself so ! know what I am talking about 1 tl1a district of St. aame is more than fifty percent unemployed at th!s time. I would like to have seen as mu~~ effor~ put into a bill to create employment in St. Barbe. ! would like to have seen a. bill introduced in this House eo create employment with the same effort as it took to engineer this ., I would like to see it o;o into developt'lent 1 creation of employment.

I would Uke to see a study done in my d.istric:tJ alonq with many other studies, on -,ny we ca.nno-=. ha.ve land. available so :..\"'.at we can pay tax on it., wb.y we cannot qet a. Ucenee to fUh so we can pay tax., I would l.ik:e to have studies done in that mmner. There !lnlSt have been a lot of worJo: go into this here, th.is bill sa. Thera must have been a lot of \rrfQrk go into it. but there is going to have to be an awful lot more ~rk qo into it in order to c:olleet the :noney from the pe<lple in the tiny communities. Anc!

I am wondering if you are going t:o qet people to act on eommuni-:y CounciW i.f people who are going to serve have to .i.n!lict a tax on their neighbors 3437

Novembe.r 26. l979 Tape ~o. 1:!74 xtt. T. BENNET!': who a.re lesa fortunate t."tan ourselves. What I Hnd in a lot of t:.b.ese areas is the leat!er::J of the connuni ties who become the uyors and eouncillors a::e also t..'1e most prosp~rous. They seem to be the guys who are the sawmillers, they Sei!m to be the guys who are tht:t business pe:op le • In the rura.l areas, mind you, we have not got lawyers and doctors or auditors. If we WMt the services of a lawyer, !ir.Speaker, we have to come all the way from Pll.lltt Poi."lt or from St.

AnthonYJ !or that matter 1 all the way up to Corner Brook.! doubt if there is even a lawyer in St. Anthony. I do not know if t..~ere is. MR.THCMS: There are none in Stephenville. ~. T. B!:N't.'E'l"'!': the hon. member tells me.

There are none in Stephenville I k.""tow t..'1ere are no lawyers on our coast and if you want the services of a lawyer 1 a dentist, a doctor and many, many ot.'1er services of every day life,you have to get in your ear and drive many, many miles and pay for ~'1at h~avy gas tax,and that heavy rubber tax, and that heavy car tax frem which the government already receives a substaneial revanue without hav1n9 to - you should not have had to pay the tax on your house before you left to go into Corner Brook to seek the services ot' a legal councillor, or a doctor or any ot..,er of these ser.riet!ls. 3438

November 26, 1979 Tape 1375 MB - l MR. BENtfETT: So I think there should he a lot of consideration qiven, a lot of ~~ought put into it, and as I see ie1it is about the end of freedom. we did have a tiny wee bit of freedom left in those rural areas but i e is gradually, slowly, but surely disappearinq, and it is not for much longer~ and. ! feel tbe government. to be taking t:hemselves off the hook and inflict:i:'lg the burden of the collecting of taxes onto the backs of the people in the coxmnunities.

If they can get people to serve on a connunity ecun.ci.l, to go out and collect this tax, t.hen goverrunent will be lucky. They are dumping their responsibUity 1 of course, - the responsibility of collec:tinq tax- they are dum;pinq it onto the loca.l municipalities. We have so much rsd tape, red tape for eve~~inq you do. If a man wants an ac:.re of land from the Crown it takes him years and years and years and years.

This is going to be si:rtilar in red tape • The introdUC""'...ion of tax in rural areas, the c:cllectinq of it .. you are goinq to have to se't. up a baeeary of lawyers, you a..~ qoing to have to set up a. battery to go in &nd collect the tax off these people and sell off the properties of people vh.o cannot: pay their t.ax, because as I Wlderstand it nov, it looks like then are going to have toPe foreclosures and evaryt.h.inq else. If you are subject to t.ax, it is a la.w of the country, if you are subject; to t.a.x, you must ?aY it. you cannot pay, your house is on the bloc:Xs. 'ttlank you, Mr. Speaker. HR..

SPEAKER; (Simms l The hon. member for Humber Wese MR. BAIRD: I would. like to support Sill sa. I i:aaqine it is liNCh easier to be on t;he opposition side trying to criticise than ie is c:yinq to do something .. AN HON. MEMBER: There is lots to criticise. MR. BAIRDt .t would like t.o commend this government for having the initiative and. the quts to go up and take issue and bring in a. bill such as t.Us wh.ereby we have heard. the ticm. gentleman on t.."le otber side say that in four years time we will damn well know it. Well, I t.hink we should have the quts, and I have, to

November 26, 1979 Tape 1375 MB - 2 bring in what: should. be leqisla.tion to c;-oveo a.nci never mind. going by the wh..i.m.s of a lot: of individuals. t Wink it is ti:ne we ha.d the fortitude to bring it in, a.nci I am glad eo see t.."le minister and. t:hi.s qovemment brl..nqing it in - number one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: I wonder are we ta.lki.ng about t.."l.e good of !tew:foundland or are we afraid of our necks four years time: wb.en we face the elec-...orate?

We have he:a.rd eno•J.qh about the little fellow in the small areas, you cannot do this, we are going to take the bread from his table. t wu nearly in tears there this afternoon for a while. I am sure that in Humber West, and many ot.lter areas, we have some people there too, who have not too much bread. on thei: table, but they still have to pay their taxes, maintain their services. We have a. situation in Humber Wese, right in Corner Brook itself, the population was 30 thousand., now it is 26 thousand, You ask the people why it is 26 thowand?' They go in eo the outlying a.n:as, · Why? Less ..axes.

Somebc~ bas to pay for it. They still want:. waeer, they want sewerage, they want t.Us and they want that. Somebody has to pay for it. and I suqqest that everybody should.ar their burden and help pay for it:. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear; MR .. BADID: No doubt: att!!l bill that is brought in, especially one of this magnitude, when you get to the clause by c:l.ause, everything in the book is probably noe what we would like it to be, but we are. talking about the principle of the bill in second read.inq. • I am one hundred percant for it and I will rise or fall i.."l four years time, on that bill. Thank you. MR ..

SPEAKER: (.I!U • .aims) The hon. member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Mr. SpeAker, my frien~ frcm Humber West .. stele a few of my lines there.. I am not sure our House Leader knew he was going to speak bue nevertheless I will forgive hi.t'l for stealing a couple of :Jr'f lines and I will t::r:y to rephrase them so t.~at they are parlia.menta.-ry. I felt ocliiti:Ci --to get up and make a. few remarks when I 3440

November 26, 1979 Tape 1375 ~- 3 MR. STAGG: interjec~ed earli~ and my col.League from St. Barbe (Mr. Bennett) indicated ! was making some personal remark about rich people in rural areas. t merely sa.id, "How is this bill going to affect: the rich merchants in rural areas?" That is a general COD!lent I want:.ed him to address h.i.:nself to and he i:rmedia.tely decided he was going to 3441

November 26, 1979 ':'ape No. 1Ji6 IB-1 MR. STAGG: tell us aJ.l a.bout how he divest:.ed hi:nsel£ o£ aJ.l his prope=t.:.ds and so on. I de not:. know • .t !ttUSt have st:..-uck a rather res)?Ollsive cord or raw nerve or someth . .ing. AN HON. MEMBER: t-m. STAGG: {Inaudible} address yourself to :hat. Maybe I will address myself to that

U) some ex~ent. I think we do have a lot of very rich people in rural areas.

Newfoundlar.d has more th.a..n its share of millionaires, more than its share oi people 'oiho are living off t.,eir int:erests, 'iiho have gone out: i.'lto small communit:.ies and having had to pay r..o taxes, havUlg existed on ORES grants and t:.;.,.is kind of grant:. and ot:.her kinds of grants and just generally looking arou."ld for handouT.:s from various ;overr.ment depar't:nents and various governments and being relatively successful at: it1 have built up qu:..ee a great deal of riches. '..tell, I t.hi.."lk th.is blll 1 once we get out into ~ese communities 1you are going to have some of these people paying thei:' fair share and I think that is good.

They should pay their fair share. I would. also like UJ back ·.Jp .,..ha.e :ny frie."ld from E!umber Wes't. (~. Baird) said, that th.is government.

L"l four years time will go to t.h.e polls a.nd. this property tax that all tile various members have addressed themselves to so far, this will be one of '!..~e key issues in the Liberal re-el.ect:ion or - re-election~ Bow can you t.a.l.lt about re-election of the t.iberals, they have been out for so long now - but:. i."l the .r...i.beral' s election campaign t.hey will say t.hat Bill 58 should read, "An Act To Re-elect the Liberal Party" because they are going to use the same type of approach

U) it t.hat they used on t:he a.u'thorities in 1915, when we saw these newspapers put: out:., both by the Lit.eral Party and the Refor:n I.iberal Party, saying, '::lect us and we •ill do away with school tax, and we will do away with this ta:x1 a..nd we will do away .,.it.~ that tax, and neglec't.ing, of course, to tell T.:he people of the ?rovince that they were :he ones who brought it in in the first place - SOME HON. ~EP.S: Hea=, hear ! 3442

November 26, 1979 Tape No. 1376 !E-2 MR. STAGG: - and ehat we have been merely goin~ along with whae they brought in. Now, this is e~e sor~ of satire and song t.ha.t the Uberal Party has been used. to using over the years 1 trying to- AN HON. MEMBER! MR. STAGG! What about the electrical rates? And the electrical rates. There are all sorts of things that the t.iberals have bee..."l responsible for cr..rer the years. The electrical rates in this Province, just imagine how we are selling the power from Churchill Falls and the money, $500 ~llion a year going in1:0 the cof.fers of Quebec because of the Liberal Party.

Well 1 I suppose 1 there is some blessing to it:. because that is why many of us are over here and that is why the remnants of the Liberal Party, the party that is in great decline now - and the NDI? are chortling, chafing at the bit to get to the next election where they can become t.h.e official Opposition in both canada and in Newfoundland. So we will welcome the NDP as the official Opposition for about fifteen years while members opp:~sit:e go into a state of decl.ine like the Liberal Party in England. MR. FLIGHT: As jus't:. witnessed in St. Mary's-the Capes in the last by-election. MR.

STAGG: Oh,yes 1 my colleague from windsor-auchans (Mr. Flight} who this morning indicated to me t.h.at:. there were goinq to be two candidates down in Burgeo-3ay d 'Espoir who are going to lose their nomination fees. And I said, "How much will you put on it?". And. he sa.i..d, "Fifty dollars''. He said, "I will put fifty dollars on it". I said, '"iou are on". MR .. CINN: MR. STAGG: no I do not want to bet. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (.Baird) : MR. STAGG: Ani he is trying to \o'easel out of it now. A.nci now he wants to ecme back and say, "No, Two to one on i e.. order, please! "I do not. want to bet." 3443

November 26, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (BAIRD): MR. STAGG: MR. SPEA.KE.R: MR. STAGG: Tape No. 1376 Order, please! Relevance, Mr. Speaker? I believe - Yes, I guess so. IB-3 MR. SPEAKER: - the hon. member for Stephenville migh~ be straying a little bit from the topic. MR. STAGG: Yes, Z may be straying from the topic somewhat, Mr. Speaker, but I could not restrain myself from this spurious interjection from ~~e member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Eliqht) • He qot to me, not T\o'Qmey from ExPloits either, TWomey :nay get him yet. SOME HON. ME¥~ERS: Hear, hear! MR.. STAGG: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I have heard a lot of chortling and caterwauling - chortling and cat~~aulinq, they are not necessarily compatible terms-Cut I have heard a lot of caterwauling, at least 1fran members opposite talking about no consultation with the municipalities. Well 1 I believe that nry colleague here spoke at the Federation of Mayors ar.d Municipalities, he told them what it was going to be all about. The Royal Commission on Municipal Government, ~~s tome that I have here before me, we have 1111 had this, we have all read this. I suppose hon. members opposite have all read this.

I must say that I have read it twice, even t:r.ough t.he pages are rather clean. It is just testimony to my own personal cleanliness, that:. is all 1:hat is. All members over here, we have all read it, we know about il:. 3444

November 26, 1979 Tape No. lJT" GH-1 M..~. ST!-..GG: We had the Royal Commission ;oing <1rour.c. t:Us ?:evince seve:nal years ago. The people of thi~ ?rovince and the people who are interes't.ed in it at the ::nunicipal le•1el, ~~ey know what is coming. ! circulated it to the members of the Stephenville Town Council and to t.he Town Manager and the Town Clerk. I took that initiative myself. I do not know if han. members opposite have enough initiative to do that sort of thing themselves, but if they do not, well, sobeit, sobeit.

They then have to say, 1 ~ell, you do not know about it because ~~e government did not circulaee it: ! say they do no1:. know about it because you did not circulate it. rl.R. G. F.;..IGhT: MR. STAGG: What good would it have done? What good would it do? Well, you are saying that it ~as not done and if you are getting no feedback from your municipalities it is because hon. members opposite have been t:oo busy campaigning in by-elections. The members of the Liberal !?arty gee elected to t..'lis House so they can go campaign in federal and provincial by-elections.

I think what they should have been doing ·is circulating copies of Bill sa to t.he.iz consti tuent:s and finding out how it was going to affect ~~em. 4nd I submit that under the Election Expenses Act ~~at all the expenses of t..l-te :nem.bers opposite, who are supposed to be here in the House, should be totalled up for t..~e member for Burgee-St. George's (Mr. Simmons) and just see, he might be over the $25,000. We might get him unseated, who knows. AN HON. MEMBE..tt: (inaudible) • MR. STAGG: That is already looked after Already looked after, I see. Well, I just may gee an order on ~~at. Now, where was I?

SOLiE HaN. MEMBERS ~ Nowhere MR. STAGG: Yes, yes, ! was suggesting that hon. members opposite may have been derelict in ~~eir duty to t..,eir constituents, in that t."l.ey had not circulated the bill, and I submit that ~"tat is correct. Now, I circulated it to ~~e members of the Stephenville Town Council and to t..'1.e Town Manager and so on, 3445

November 26, 1979 Ta~e No. 1377 GH-2 MR. STAGG: and r was complimented by i~ - complimented on my action by them, saying what a great :!tell".ber :rou are for doing ~hat sort of ~~ing, and r suggest that hen. members opposite - they have missed the boat now, they just:. have not done it.. MR. J. CARTER: ll!!. STAGG' So modest. Yes, yes, :nodesty - well, ! am as modest as I need eo be.

There were t~o comments came back on the town manager's role and ~lte role of c.;,.e town clark, and tb.ese are mate.ers t:.~at I have brought to the attention of t:.~e minister and ~e has gi..,en me adequate and satisfactory explanae.ions on both. ·""· L. TbUH.S: it. MR. STAGG: MR. L. TUCH.S: lffi. STAGG: {Inaudible) ! would like eo hear You would like to hear it? It is one of the points r raised. one of the points you raised, yes. Well, one of the points raised was under the new bill, 1 ~he town manager can be excluded from meetings of ccmmi~~ees of ehe council ! think ~at it is not a bad idea.

There was another matter about the town clerk and the treasurer, which was a. rat:.lw;r complicated thing and I must admit that ! was not. all that concerned about it. .A."' Hm1. MJ:;.'WE.R: MR. STAGG:

Section 58 (i.."la.udi.ble) •

Section 58, That is what the hon. member is worried about,

Section 58. So they were comparatively minor matters, and r am satisfied that the legislation in no way needs to be changed. The t.own councillors say it is a =arvellous piece of legislation. So, who is going eo profit from t:.~is, who is going to profit? r submit that the people in rural Newfoundland are going to be the benefactors of tl".is.

Now, initially, they are going to be told by ~~eir members, many of the member3 opposite here in whose districts they will have property tax and water and sewerage tax for the first time, they are going to be told ~~t this is ~~e big, bad Tories who are coming in xnd going back en election Frcmi~es and just generally deserve to be defeated in the next election. 3446

November 26, 1979 Tape No. 1Ji7 GH-3 M..tL STAGG: Well, han.· members cpposi~s :ay Oe riqhe. All of them may get re-elect:.ed the neXt t:.ilne a,r:)und, and ·..rhat:. will we have? We will have the same figures as we had before, so ! submit:. that: hon. members opposite are probably aseuee enough politically, small '? 1 polieically, to cake advantage of this bill and to use it as a re-election vehicle as they used the sc!':.ool tax matter in l97S,and will probably dedicate a disproportionate amount of ~~eir time in trfing to destroy the bill. You know, ! have seen situations out in ~~e 9ay St.

George area, particularly in the district of ?ort au ?ore, where people are quite concerned aboue the lack of water and sewer facilities and 3447

~iove.mber :6, 1979 1' ape :>o • 1376 :.;; - l ~":P.. F.