Manitoba Hansard — 3 March 1980 (Sitting 8B, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-8b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Time: 8:00 p.m. LE GISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monaay, 3 March, 1980 THR ONE SPEECH DEBAT E MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYO N: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When we aajournea at 5:30 I was at the point where I was talking about my honourable frienas' contribution to the Throne Speech Debate and, at the risk of repeating myself, what I was trying to indicate to them, Sir, was that left-wing nitwittery and tomfoolery translate mto political quackery of the worst kina, ana really that's what we've been hearing for the past week or so in this House.

I say agam to the Leader of the Opposition, ana to the members who surrouna him, how can he or how can the opposition in this House expect to be taken seriously by the people of Manitoba when his speech provides no thoughtful comment , no alternat ive 1aeas, or even a hint of concern about the funaamental problems in Manitoba such as the whole keystone of our economy in this province, agricult ure, the grain hanaling and transportation system in Manitoba, which is still one of the f'unaamental problems that faces western Canaaa. Not a word. Not even an acknowledgement that that problem exists.

He is much mo re concerned, Mr. Speaker, about transparent issues that he attempts to raise about, for instance, the cost of the commission on Manitoba Hydro, about which I will have cons1aerably more to say before I am through with him. Ana, Mr. Speaker, what does he say about Canaaian unity? We have a referenaum commg up in Quebec in June. What are the views of the members of the opposit10n on national unity in this country? How woula they propose to deal with their beamates, the Trudeau Liberals, who are now in office? How would they propose to deal on this funaamental issue in Canaaa?

Not a word on that, not a word on that at all. My honourable friend is too busy trying to manufacture quick tricks out of the Throne Speech. What about inflation? What about inflation, Mr. Speaker -inflation which is the scourge of the poor, of those on fixed income, those under the so-called poverty line in Manitoba. Not a word about inflation from our honourable frienas. Ana they are the party after all, Mr. Speaker, who claim the monopoly on compassion m this province. They are the ones who are concer nea about the "poor". Mr.

Speaker, they have very little concern about the poor or about those on fixea income, our senior citizens, ana oth ers in this prov ince, if they can't aevote one line in their response to the Throne Speech about inflation, which is the fundamental economic problem facing this country today. Not a wora about that , however. We have to talk about Autopac, we have to talk about McKenzie Seea, we have to talk about the ot her little Socialist trivialities that my honourable frienas engagea in when they were wrecking the economy of this prov ince for the eight years that they were on this siae of the House.

What about, Mr. Speaker, hearing some profouna thought from my honourable fr1enas opposite about the size of the overall debt in Manitoba,ana how that aebt rose to be the second highest per capita of any debt in this country unaer their eight years of malaaministration in this prov ince. How about oealing with it? Ana as I saia to my honourable friena before, you're a great one to come out, ano so are your colleagues -spend mo re on this, spend mo re on that , we want a road here, we want the roaa to Red Sucker Lake finished there. We want more teachers in School Division Number One.

We want mo re of this, we want mo re of that. Ana where in God's name, Mr. Speaker, is the money going to come from? Out of the hioes of the working people of Manitoba. But you never hear that from my honourable frienas opposite, no, no, no. Ano we saio acro ss the House to my friend when he was making his alleged response to the Throne Speech, where are you going to get the money. Oh, he said, we're not going to have enquiries mto Manitoba Hydro; that would save us $1.3 million. Well, Mr.

Speaker, at the risk of reminding my honourabl e frieno of what he shoulo know, let me tell him this: 1.3 million to me is still an awful lot of money, but 1.3 million is what he and his colleagues spent annually on the Pl anning and Pr iorities Committee of their socialist government, which we disbanded on coming into office. So don't let him or any of his - 281 -

Monday, 3 March colle agues talk to me about the waste of expenditure. And he needn't rush up to talk to the Member for Transcona, because I can verify the fact that the Planning and Priorities Committee cost the Gover nment of Manitoba $1.3 million in the last year m which we had responsibility for giving decent criticism of the former governm ent. So, Mr. Speaker, he says, where is he going to get the money. He's going to get it from saving $300,000 on an Autopac inquiry, says he or says his Member for the Interl ake who was speaking this after noon.

Three hunarea thousana dollars -tha t's not very much money when you consider the kind of wastrel spending that usea to go on across the way, bringing their friends in from all over the world - their socialist friends - and camping them in Manitoba. Whether it started with Cass Beggs, and there were others on that list of infamy - and there can be no other name for it -th at they brought in their socialist, their marxist friends from all over the face of the earth, who came here like bees to the honey. Their fr1enas that they brought in from the United States, Mr.

Speaker, to use our school children in this province, under the distinguished guidance of that great Deputy Mimster Mr. Lionel Orlikow, to use our school children as guinea pigs for their outdated experimentation. We all remember that, Mr. Speake r. And where is my honourable friend ... The Leader of the Opposition laughs, Mr. Speaker.

Let the record show that he laughs at one of the greatest perioas of infamy that the Department of Ed ucation ever was subjectea to in this province, when he and the political operatives that his former Pr emier ana the then Ministers of Ed ucation inflicted upon the people of Manitoba for many many years. Maybe the Member for St . Boniface would like to engage in the debate tomorrow ana tell us about Dr. Tolchinski ana some of the other socialist favourites who were brought in here, yes. Ana don't think that we are not going to talk about that, Mr. Speaker, later in this debate.

So let me hear from my honourable friends opposite about the size of the overall debt, which grew in their time to the second highest in Canaaa -at a time when the man who was standing in my place, and when I was sitting where the honourable member, the Leaaer of the Opposition, now sits, tr ied to convince the people of Manitoba that the statement of the debt that we were giving was ten times as large as it was. When that figure was being shown, that figure was being demonstrated in the different publications that were put out by the Pr ovince of Manitoba.

That is on the record too, as are a number of other things on the record that will be mentioned here tonight, Mr. Speaker. Why doesn't our honourable friend talk about the multi tuae of real problems facing Manitobans. Ana I am going to talk a little bit later on about the demog raphic problem -not p roblem, the demog raphic situation, Mr. Speaker -that faces the Pr ovince of Manitoba, with a generally aging population. Not a unique situation to the Pr ovince of Manitoba; one that is common to the whole of North America. What ideas 010 we hear from my honourable friends about that ? Not one?

Do they have any idea what the projection for the age of the population will be in 1985, 1990? If they ao, why are they keeping It to themselves? Have they no original thoughts? They are supposed to be here, not just to draw pay as members of the opposition, they are supposed to be here to help the public interest of the province of Manitoba. I would remind a number of them, Mr. Speaker, they are not here as aav ocates of Karl Marx or En gels. They are here to serve the public interest of the people of lVlamtoba. Some of them need to learn that lesson as well, Mr. Speaker. We hea rd, Mr.

Speaker, in the course of the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition -It 1s not so much of what we heard, it is what we didn't hear. He came to deal with the quest10n of Manitoba Hydro, and what did he say? He said it is patently unfair for the members of the government to talk about Manitoba Hyaro ana the Tritschler Commission, because Mr. Schreyer isn't here to defend himself.

Well, I want to tell my honourable friena that he can't hide behind the purple robes in Riaeau Hall; that he ana his colleagues stand maictea before public opinion in Manitoba for what he ana their then leader then perpetrated on the people of Manitoba, and it is all in the Tritschler Report. If my honourable friend thinks for one moment that he can avoid aiscussing the single most disastrous example of financial mismanagement in their disaster-ridden adm inistration, he has surely got another think coming.

The "aamn the torpedoes" idea, don't bother me with the facts says the Leader of the Opposition, just go out and get me the money, somewhere, anywhere. That is the approach that the previous gover nment took, Mr. Speaker, to the d evelopment of our northern hydro resources, now aocumentea, chapter, line and verse. Ana I want to say to my honourable friends that the sum total of their response to this indictment of their wastrel tactics is to hide behind the gates of Rideau Hall. Well, it isn't going to wash in here, Mr. Speaker, and I want them to know right now, it isn't going to wash in here. - 282 -

Monday, 3 March I know that members like the Member for Inkster are prepared to give an attempt at a reasoned defence. But there is nobody else in that other group that have separated themselves from the Member for Inkster, who either can ao it or have the gumption to ao it, Mr. Speaker, because they stand inaictea. Hydro rates in this province that are at least 20 percent higher than they need be because of the wastrel tactics of these people opposite. Capital expe nditures committed well beyond $500 to $600 millions, that neea not have been committed at all. They know that, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I intend to quote to them tonight, if time permits, a number of interestmg comments from that report, which I hope will stimulate them to some form of aefence, if indeed they have any at all. But it's a

chapter of this province which all of us wish, Mr. Speaker, was behind us. It's not behina us yet. It's going to be with us, it' s going to be with succeeding generations for years to come. And it will stand, if I may say so, Sir, as a lasting testament to the kina of incompetent political written administration that we haa in this province from 1969 to 1977, which we have been blessedly ria of ever since, ana which, God forbid, we will ever have in this province ever again. Mr.

Speaker, when I come to make some of the quotes from that Commission tonight, I would imagine that my honourable friends would agree, even with their bias, that there has never been in the history of this country - ana I hope I am not using hyperb ole that is beyond the situation - a period running over years in this province, when there was a combination of deceit, when there was a combination of hiding of the facts, when there was a combination of cover -up engaged in by members of the government, and by senior members of Hydro, the likes of which I hope we will never see in this country again.

We are great in this country, you know, to talk about Watergate. We've haa our own aocumentea Watergate in Manitoba, and it's the Manitoba Hydro debacle that these people opposite -ana a gooa number of them who still sit here -presided over. And some of them today , Mr. Speaker, still have the gall to stand before the people of Manitoba ana say, look, everything we did was right. Ev erything we did was right because ot herwise, we wouldn't have this great surplus of power.

Ana I say to them - ana rm going to read a few chapters to them tomght from the Tritschler Commission to impress upon what's left of their intelligence on this subject -the fact that they left this province a heritage which they should be ashamed of, ana which their sons and granasons should be ashamed of throughout the length of the history of this province, so long as it may continue to exist. Well, Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few other things tonight about what we aian't hear. It's not only the hydro debacle that you know my honourable friends across the way are trying to cover up.

I think it's safe to assume that a great many of the rea herrings that we have seen demonstrated in the House by their speeches over the last several days have been set out to prevent us from seeking some explanation from our frienas for the kinas of aecisions that have been maae by the Honourable Member for Inkster, ana the kina of aecis1on that was made by Mr. Syms, the former Chairman of the Liquor Control Commission, on severmg their ties with their former colleagues in this House. Well, Mr.

Speaker, one of the great diver sionary tactics, of cour se, when you're in a problem, is to try to talk about something else, to draw another red herring ac ross the trail. What was it that Mr. Syms said? Mr. Syms said that he thought the party, which my honourable friena, the Member for Selkirk is now the leader, haa been taken over by communists and radicals. Those were not the statements of a blue-blood Con servative or anything like that at all. Those were the statements of the man who was the Chairman of the Liquor Control Co mmission, appointed by my honourable frienas for some eight years.

Those are not my words, Mr. Spe aker, those are the words of a former member of their party. A former Pr esident of their party. Mr. Speaker, that's not to say that, from time to time, any party aoes not have defections, for whate ver cause. But surely I would think that the Leaaer of the Opposi t1on would be able to present some sort of a passing defence, Mr. Speaker, to the comment maae by the former Chairman of the Liquor Commission, who was a lifelong, rib-rock member of the New Democratic Party, the Socialist party of Manitoba. What does he say about that?

Ana of our honourable friena, the Member for Inkster, he stooa up with full canaor the other aay, and said he left because he thought the control of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, of the union movement in Manitoba, was too great over my honourable friends opposite. What did we hear about that, Mr. Speaker, in the Throne Speech? Not a whimper, not a word. We had to wait until we heard from the Member for Inkster to talk about that. - 283 -

Monday, 3 March I used the expression once that my friend from Inkster - we've been friends for many, many years - reminded me somewhat of the piano player in the house of ill repute, in the Yukon at the turn of the century. Somebody came in and askea him what he was aoing in a place like that, he said, "I don't know what's going on upstairs." Ana my honourable friend, the Member for Inkster should have known what 's been going on upstairs m the NDP for a long time. So I mer ely say, Mr.

Speaker, when are we going to get some enlightenment on these fissures and cracks ana dislocations that are taking place m this great socialist party of Manitoba, which is luxuriating -and I think that's not too strong a verb, or an aajective or a noun, to apply. It is lux uriating in its recent transitory success in a peripheral way in the federal election. Ana my honourable friends, when they got up in the course of the Throne Speech debate, that was all they could talk about. And, Mr. Speaker, it provides an interesting contrast, do you not think?

Last May, when the Progressive Conservat ive government, under the leaaership of the Rt. Hon. Joe Clark, was elected to the gover nment of Canada, I do n't think you heard the kind of breast-beating and luxuriating, -{Int erjection) - no, no, not to the same exte nt. And I think that there's an interesting difference to be made, and that is this, and it's not I, I wish I coula claim the quote. Someone once said that socialism is a disease, it's not a political philosophy. It's a disease and it tends to spread.

Ana my honourable friends, I suppose, are luxuriating in the fact that they have maybe implanted some of these cells in the corpor ate body of Manitoba, and they hope that they're going to spread. But I want to tell my honourabl e friends this, and it's only a political projection, ana it's probably not even wo rth the time it takes to say it, because we all know that political projections are a dime a dozen. But I venture the suggestion, Mr. Speaker, that within a year, 18 months or two years, the present national Government of Canada is going to be held highly in disrepute. And I venture the thought, Mr.

Speaker, that along with them will be their bedmates down there, the NDP. And I aare say, Mr. Speaker, that people are going to read back to Mr. Broadbent and to some of his feaeral candiaates, some of the utter nonsense that they spouted du ring the past federal election cam paign. And I dare say, Mr. Speaker - ano I could well be wrong - that we're going to have an awfully uncomfortable group of NDP MLAs sitting opposite us within a matter of a relatively short period of time.

The wish is not father of the thought at all, and rm not wishing that, but in my years in politics, I have a suspicion that that is exactly what is going to happen. Because some of the phoney issues that were raised during the election campaign by the NDP, which still remains, Mr. Speaker, a form of aberration on the national political scene - it has got something like what? About 11 percent of the seats. It has got about 19.8 percent of the popular vote. And you would think, my God , on election night, if you listened to Mr.

Br oadbent with his teeth and his mouth wide open, that he had won the national election. Well, of course, Mr. Speaker, maybe he knows mo re than we aia. Maybe he did win it, I don't know, in the sense that the philosophies that he woula follow that he aare not pronounce to the people of Canada might well be followed by those who aid receive the majority election. Who knows? Who knows? But, Mr.

Speaker, I dare say that within a year, within two years, we are going to see a fair amount of discomfort from honourable members on the opposite side who have been luxuriating in the last few days about their transitory victory on the federal scene. There is no immediate transference of vote, as we all know, from the federal to the provincial seat.

We all know as well that in the heyday of the Tory in Manitoba, when we hela the vast majority of the seats in Manitoba, even in 1968 which was one of the lower ebbs, ana in 1972 and so on, there were many more Tory seats than there were even at the present time, and what did we hav e? God forbid, we had an NDP government in Manitoba. I am willing to admit that there is a generic difference between the two. But I still say, Mr.

Speaker, that there are interesting times ahead that will reaaily be acknowled ged by the more sage viewers of the political scene in Manitoba, such as the Member for Inkster ana ot hers, who will indicate to perhaps some of their younger and more jejune frien<lS ttuit "enjoy the moment, enjoy the moment, because the tide can well turn in a very very brief period of time." Well, Mr.

Speaker, there is a court of public opinion in this province, an<J J !!an assure the members opposite that ttiis court is going to get all the ev1aence, not only on Manitoba Hyaro, but on all of the other evidences of maladministration that we have been subjected to clearing up over the past two years or mo re. I am sorry, of course, Mr. Speaker, that my honourable friends haven't really chosen to aeal in a substantive way with that kind of an indictment, because it is one that historians will remember. - 284 -

Monoay, 3 March I think we, all of us, from time to time have to remember the position that history regardS of different administrations. And I am quite prepared, Mr. Speaker, to let history make its judgment of the last two and one-half years that this government has been office, because we came in and we have done those things that we saia we would ao. I wonaer if my honourable friends opposite, with the same amount of alacrity, can say that they are happy to have history judge their rather sordid record on the basis of the facts as they have alreaay been laid out before the people of Manitoba. Well, Mr.

Speaker, I can unaerstana the Member for Inkster perh aps better than most of them. I can unaerstana wha t his ailemma is. He has left this party because he says, in effect, there is too much contro l by organized labour.

Organizea labour controls a certain number of delegates at every co nvention they go to, and I say just by way of passing, can you imagine the kindS of noises we would be hearing from across the way if the Canadian Manufacturers Association, or if the Manitoba Chambers of Comm erce, or any of the other orga nizations that happen to represent the private sector, were to be able to claim a block of votes in the Conservative Pa rty -or inaeed, even in the Liberal Pa rty? Mr. Speaker, can you imagine what they would be saying opposite?

But we all know that they have moaelled themselves very very closely on the Trades Union Congress in Great Britain, and that's why my honourable friend is sitting at the end of the bench here today. Because, with his integrity, he will not accept the kind of imposea cont rol that comes, not from the general membership of the Federation of La bour in Manitoba -Goo knows not from them -but from the leadership of the Manitoba Feaeration of Labour in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, we all know that. Mr. Speaker, much better minds than mine have talked and written about this for a long long time.

I hope my friends will not consider me to uncharitable if I use the thoughts of the present Lora Chancellor of Great Britain, Lora Haleshum, which I think may well be appropr iate to aescribe their cu rrent internal relat10ns and the dilemma that is pointed out by the situation of the Member for Inkster. Ana here's what Lo rd Haleshum had to say in one of his recent writings, "I have no doubt whatever that the attitud e of the Trade Union Movement ana of the Labour Party with which it is organically con nected has been a maj or, I would say the principal, cause of our national decline.

Neither can ever make up its mind whether its role is to destroy the capitalist system and its values or rescue the capitalist system from its faults." Ana, Mr. Speaker, having said those few words, am I not putting my finger to some considerable exte nt upon the dilemma which causes the Member for Inkster to be sitting where he is, and the other members of that socialist party to be sitting where they are. You get the Member for Br andon East, my finger just happened to stop at. He stands up in this House. He's as good an example as any.

A former Minister, if you'll pardon the exp ression, of Industry and Commerce in Manitoba under a socialist government. That 's like being a Minister of Tourism at the North Po le. Mr. Speaker, he stands up in this House ana says, we want to ao more for small business. He and his colleagues did mo re to drive small business out of this province in the eight years they were in, and they haven't come to understand it yet.

The hundreds of millions of dollars that farmers, that small business people, that ordinary working people ano so on, mvesteo in other provinces because they couldn't stand the confiscatory taxes m this prov ince, and he says that they're all in favour of small business. Ana I asked him the question, Mr. Speaker, tha t I've asked him before. When aoes one of these small businesses that they allegedly love start to become one of those big businesses that we know they all hate. Ana do you know, Mr. Speaker, of any big business today that didn't start out as a small business? I don't.

But what I'm trying to fmd out from my honourable friends, and it's the age old question you can ask of any socialist anywhere, why 1s it that you are so in favour of big government but you're so against any kind of business, medium, large-size, or multinational, if you want to use the knee-jerk expression of the Member for Transcona. That really gets them heated up. Ana here you have this fundamental dilemma because my honourable friends opposte ana the Member for Inkster sits here as a living manifestation of this fact.

My honourable friends opposite haven't made up their minds yet whether they want to be purer Marxists and destroy the system, or whether they want to be reasonable people and improve the system ana work in concert with the private sector. When they were in office they talked for instance about ex propriating the mining industry. --{Interjection)--Well that's true. The Member for Lac du Bonnet has made up his mind. He knows that there should only be one oil company m Canaoa, and that should be ownea by the state.

The Member for Lac Du Bonnet also maae up his mind when he was Minister of Ag riculture that the lana-holaing system in Cu ba was the best - 285 -

Monday, 3 March land-holding system for the people of Manitoba. He went down there and saw it, and he said the state should own all of the land, and we haven't heard my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, deny that particular shibboleth of their belief. My honourable friend, it's said that the Leader of the Opposition was on the same trip. I suggest he's been on a funny trip for a long long time with respect to ••. He's one of these strange people in Canada, Mr.

Speaker, who is much more concernea about the situat10n of the people in Chile than he is about the situation of the people in Selkirk, Interlake, with respect to farm ownership and state ownership of land. Why don't they took a look around him, in his own constituency, and see what his policies, his government's policies, with respect to state farm owner ship are doing? Why aoesn't he take a look around him? Why doe sn't he say to this House, I think two-and-a-half times one, the restriction of incomes of the people of Manitoba, to two-and-a-half times one, I think that's wrong?

Does he not say it because he doesn't believe it? After all, that was said by somebody who is no longer here. My honourable friend can disengage himself from that anytime he wants. But we know that he believes in it. And there again, Mr. Speaker, the fundamental dilema of my honourable friends opposite. They want to be pure socialists but they don't dare tell the people of Manitoba, or the people of Canada, that's what they believe. They say just elect us and we'll do these things. We'll never tell you what we are doing. We'll do them.

We'll buy up this company, we'll buy up that corn pany , and they'll all be money losers. And we'll continue doing all of these things and we'll tax, tax, tax, and we'll raise the deficit and we'll spend, spend, spend. And we'll engage in debacles like Manitoba Hydro, but for heaven's sake, don't ask us ever to admit that's what we want to do. Ana that's the kina of funaamental dilemma that we see with our honourable friends opposite. Mr. Speaker, we've heard from the major wing of the New Democratic Party in Manitoba. We had a brief this year from the Manitoba Feaeration of Labour.

Ana I have a copy of that brief here and I am going to ask my honourable friend some interesting questions about that brief as soon as I get to it, because the major component of the socialist party m Manitoba, if we are to believe everything we hear, even the Member for Inkster, is the Federation of Labour. Ana you ought to see some of the things that they are saying, Mr. Speaker. Ana you ought to hear some of the things, as the Member for Inkster tola us the other aay, that they are trying to get the New Democratic Pa rty in this province to inflict upon the people of this province.

Some speaker this after noon said something about Autopac. He saia, when is the government going to have - and I am paraphrasing his words - the guts to ao what it really believes it should ao? Mr. Speaker, we've had, to use the street expression, we've had the guts to ao what we think should be done in the public interest with Autopac and that's it, period, parag raph.

Ana I say to my honourable friends, if they would be as forthright with the people of Manitoba as to what they intend to do with taxation, aeficit, state-owned industries, the state farm program and so on, then we would have a real debate going in this House instead of having them hide behind royal robes at Rideau Hall on the Hydro aebacle and other areas where they would like to say, nobody here but us chickens. Well we happen to know that those cackling chickens are all Socialists, Mr.

Speaker, and we happen to be able to point out to the people of Manitoba just what that kind of government -with the same people by ana large that we see in front of us toaay - inflicted upon this province for eight long years, from 1969 to 1977. Mr. Speaker, I have no objection to debates on which means of production should be nationalized or any of the shibboleths that my honourable friends happen to believe in, but haven't got the intestinal fortitude to talk about. None at all. I have a strong opinion, Mr.

Speaker, about the humour of the Rhinoceros Party in the last election, and I tend to bunch my honourable friends with the Rinoceroses, because I really don't think either of them deserves too much att ention. Mr. Speaker, there are other interesting appellations that have been applied, even by the new Cabinet Minister in the Liberal Go vernment, with respect to my honourable friends' capacities in other respects. Mr. Speaker, unfortunately we have been, in this province, subjected to eight years of their funny ideas.

Ana in this aebate with themselves, it has taken our government the better part of two years to patch up the worst holes of the combatants and the social engineers. What about the roughly 2,000 contract employees that are now aown to 200, where did all of those camp followers get to? I suppose they have mostly now aispersed out to Saskatchewan and ot her oases of Marxism around the world, after having bled the people of Manitoba. Why don't we hear some talk about that? No, Mr. Speaker, we don't. If one wanted to be - 286 -

Monaay, 3 March uncharita ble about the population outflow, we coula account for a fair number of them who have gone to other socialist oases mo ther parts of the world. Well, Mr. Speaker, I have got a great deal of terr itory to cover tonight, and I want to talk for a few moments about other things that will be equally uncomfortable to my honourable friendS opposite. Much of our work in the last two years -and we acknowledge it has been housekeeping, cleaning up, cleaning up a rat -infested nest. Not always a particul arly pleasant job, Mr.

Speaker, and not always a very easy one, but one that was absolutely essential to permit us to get on with the job of rebuilding our economy from the aevastation of that party when they were in office. What we faced when we came into office has been well-aocumentea, although easily forgotten by my honourable friends opposite; well known by the people of this province. But since the members opposite conveniently didn't ana aon't mention it at all, I am gomg to refresh their memories for a few seconds, so hang to your seats.

First of all, government spending was totally out of control, and I am talking about 27 months ago, not 27 years ago. A record deficit in this province, Mr. Speaker, several times higher than the Member for West Kilaonan, who is conveniently not here tonight, was willing to admit, with all of that frankness and canaor that he haa when he was Mimster of Finance. The second-highest per capita aebt total in the country, which even the Fi rst Minister was not prepared to admit. MR. SPE AK ER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a matter of privilege. MR. PA WL EY: Mr.

Speaker, rather than, as the First Minister indicated the Member for Seven Oaks being conveniently absent tonight, the Member for Seven Oaks is present. He was present as of five, ten minutes ago. The First Minister is fully aware of that. MR. DOE RN : He went out to get a shovel. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Fi rst Minister. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, all I can say is that whether the Member for Seven Oaks is present or is not present, he is hard to see. Ana I say, Mr.

Speaker, tha t the Member for Seven Oaks was prett y hard to hear in September ana October of 1977, when he was still Minister of Finance; and when he failed to divulge to the people of Manitoba -in fact deny to the people of Manitoba -that they were facing the kind of a budget aeficit that we had to inherit from them, $191 million, ana he haa nothing to say about that. He is the little man who wasn't there ana who wasn't heard from, whether he is here or not tonight.

The second highest per capita debt total in the country I have mentioned, a directionalist and an demoral ized Civil Service in this province, where the technique and the dod ge of using these kinds of contra ct employees to get around the merit principle of the Civil Service was part and parcel of the operations of my honourable frienas opposite. I listened this after noon to some speaker from the other siae, Mr. Speaker, talking about a form of patronage, as he chose to describe it, on behalf of this government. Mr.

Speaker, there was never a more cynical, patro nage-ridden government in the history of this province than those people when they sat in the government benches of this side of the House. We know that. As I have said before, it was like the great Gilbert and Sullivan operetta, the sisters and the cousins whom they counted up by dozens, and the aunts, they were all on the payroll. We know that.

And there was a directionalist and a demoralized Civil Service subject to layer-upon-layer of competing ana reaunaant central agency planners - some of them sit now in the House -and evaluators, and secretariats, and a long list of failing ana close-to-failing government corporations. The Member for Brandon East likes to tell us about that great profit-making centre known as Mc Kenzie Seea out in Brandon. Wait, Mr. Speaker, until the report of that company is heard.

It is a company we want to strengthen and sustain and improve in the City of Brandon, but not in the kind of hoo awink-way that he was attempting to do, he ana his colleagues, losing $1 million a year for the people of Manitoba. -(Interjection)- Yes, as the Minister of Finance says, in the beautiful tradition of Saunders Airc raft, $40 million of public dollars and then down the drain. That is the kind of operation that my honourable friendS were best at - 287 -

Monaay, 3 March running. An economy, Mr. Speaker, this was what they presided over, an economy which showed the consequences in virtu ally every sector, of the kind of maladmini stration and funny ideas th at they bring to public affairs in Manit oba. Mr. Speaker, wh en I talk abou t the woro "aberration", I mean it . Do you know, the Socialists, the really true Socialists, in this country represent just a fraction of the thinki ng. Because if the y really came ou t and 'fesseo up to the people of Canaoa or the people of Manit oba as to what they really believe, they would be laughed off the stage.

So they have to pretend the y are something that they aren't. You get Mr. Broaobent in a pin-striped suit, at public expense, out of the taxpayers' pocket, wit h his ads on TV saying, I am just one of these nice guys. I am not a Marxist. I don't intend to make PetroCan the major oil company in Canada, and so on and so forth. You know, all of this kind of nonsense. They ha ve to hid e wh at the y really believe in.

Th ere is an elementary hy pocrisy, if I may use that term, to the stance of any Socialist in Canada today, because he wouldn't dare say to the people of Canaaa wha t he really believes in, or he wouldn't be elected dogcatcher. So I am saying to my ho nourable friends opposite, that is pa.rt of the fundamental 01lemma that (Xlts the Member for Inkster in the corner seat wh ere he is tonight , because he can't stand that kind of hypoc risy. He is a confirmed Socialist and he says and he has got the candour to say so --{Interjection)-- Well, my honourable friend will be conside rably more tha n dogcatcher.

But I am wondering about some of his erstwhile colleagues on the other sioe. Mr. Speaker, the y talk from time to time about the state of the economy in Manitoba when they had responsibility for public office. You have to look back to those days prior to price and and wage controls going on in 1974. You know, it was like shoo ting fish in a barrel. The economy was doing reasonably well under th at false kind of last blowout that we were having in this country before some of the chicke ns came home to roost. We all know wh at happened in 1975, 1976, 1977.

As the Conference Board said, Manitoba was in a recession, and a recession that my hono urable friends never admi tted. No, no, no, they never admi tted Manitoba was in a recession. My heavens, Mr. Speaker, we were in the Socialist Valhalla. We were building power plants that cost hundreds of mill ions of dollars when we hao no oamn need for them. Oh, this was the Socialist Valhalla, spend, spend, spend, put more people on the payroll. And even then, the y tried to bolst er the figures by ersatz means to make them look better than they were. The ulti mate irony, Mr.

Speaker, if I may say so - and I will be talking about this in a few minutes, when we come to talk about the so-called depopulat10n in Mani toba - the ulti mate irony is this: If you read the Tri tschler Commission, where the evidence is laid oown very very firmly, you will see that most of the capi tal works upon wh ic h my honourable friends and their colleagues at Manitoba Hydro were engaged in the mio 1970s, were not needed. Indeed, you will find, Mr. Speaker, that the last major hydro project that was commissioned last June should not ha ve been built for another two years. And you'll find, Mr.

Speaker, that that greatest albatross of all, Jenpeg, need never have been built at all. That' s not a partisan statement on my behalf, that's the record of the Royal Commission looking into Mani toba Hydro. $330 mi llion tha t my honourable friends, collectively, plus, commi tted on one project that didn't have to be spent in Manitoba at all. So, Mr. Speaker, we see this nonsense now, of the Leader of the Opposi tion ano others of his ilk from that side of the House, talking about the alleged depopulation in Manitoba. And I merely say to them, Mr.

Speaker, tha t if the y had followed a sane and responsible course wi th respect to the phas ing of construction on Manitoba Hydro, we woulo still be building toaay, works on Mani toba Hydro in northern Manitoba, the product of whi ch is sti ll not needed, because as the Commission demonstrated, and as many have demonstrated for years before, Manitoba sits toaay in the unenviable position of having a 45 percent overcapacity of hydro-el ectric generating abili ty. And the ratepayers are paying for it .

And my honourable friends try to si t opposite ano say tha t tha t was good, sage planning for the people of Manitoba. Ano the report, Mr. Speaker, of the Royal Commission stands there, like Gibraltar as a testi mony to the kind of wastrel maladminist ration, poli ti cal cover-up ano outright misleading statements th at were made, not only, Mr. Speaker, by those identified in the Tri tschler Report, but indeed by members of the former government, including the person wh o stooo where I now stand in this House. And so, Mr.

Speaker, that indictment is there, and I am confident th at history will interpret that indictment the way it should be interpreted. So, Mr. Speaker, I want to say to my ho nourable friends tonight, that if they think that they can escape, for one moment, the record that they left to this province, they 've got a mighty long think coming. And if my honourable friend can sit there, in holy unctiousness, as he sometimes does, and try to say, well that' s all behind us, just elect us again so that we can - 288 -

Monaay, 3 March infl ict more of our nonsense upon the people of Manitoba, he has n't been in a debate yet, the likes of which he has never seen before. And I can give him a personal guarantee of tha t, Mr. Speaker. Because we haven't begun to fight yet with respect to the record of thi s group of probably the worst maladmini st rators tha t this province has ever seen. Mr. Speaker, I thi nk it's fair to say that the accomplishment s of our government in the last two years are all the more signif ican t when you consider the kina of her itag e that we haa to take over.

Ana all the more important for the people of Manitoba. The members of thi s siae of the House can take pride in their record for the last two years. We faced a formidable task as our first priority in office to secure and to stabilize our financial and our economic base, and we ha ve acc omplished it. Clearly, the process of correction ana consolidat10n had to begin on the budgetary si de. The members opposite have been strangely quie t on this point, ana I can well understand their si lence.

Even with the speci al measures tha t we took as soon as we came in to office in the fall of '77, the deficit in '77/'78 was $1 91 .3 milli on, the largest deficit ever in the hi story of this province. And le t some of these paragons of fiscal virtue, such as the Member for St. Johns, and the one who's still not here, the Member for Seven Oaks - former Ministers of Finance - attempt to stand up in this House and tell us why well over $100 million of that was on cur rent account. Unheard of in the province of Manitoba. Unacceptable in the province of Manitoba.

Had to be corrected in the province of Manitoba, and it was corrected. Now, in the current year, Mr. Speaker, we're projecting a budget deficit at the present time of $36 .2 million, on the same basis as the $191 mill ion just two years ago. And we ada to that the cost of the hydro rate stabilizat ion - a real cost which the Member for St. Johns hasn't really fully comprehended yet - ana it' s st ill only $73.3 million. So when we say that the budget deficit of this province is under control, we mean it, Mr. Speaker. We mean it. And Mr.

Speaker, we intend to keep it tha t way, and we are st ill budgeting on a deficit basis in Manitoba; have been and will continue to for some time. As we have emphas ized in this House time and time again, we have been able to bring down the deficit to a manageable si ze, whil e at the same time reducing a broad range of taxes in this province, for working people, for pensioners, for small business and for key resource indus tries. Ana we've proved that it could be done whil e maintai ning, and indeed improving, essential services in Manitoba. All we had to do, Mr.

Speaker, was to start to render down some of the Socialist fat that we had inherited from my honourable friends opposite, layers of Civil Service that weren't needed, a number of wh om were f riends and party cara holders of my ho nourable friends opposite. Those are the ones they hired by contract, because they couldn't get them through the Ci vil Service Commi ssion, to whi ch, I am happy to report Mr. Speaker, in tegrity has now once again been restorea, so that the merit principle is back in force m the Ci vil Service Commi ssion in this province. Mr.

Speaker, we intend to insure that not even the debacle of the return of my ho nourable friends at some long distant date in the future would return the kind of cynical back-aoor treatment that they gave to the Ci vil Service when they were in office. And my honourable friends know as well as I do that that comment doesn't come from a partisan source, that comes from leaders in the MGEA who knew the kind of admini stra tion that my honou rable friends, the cynical administration, tha t they were carrying on with respect to the Ci vil Service. Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friends opposite try to be so unctiously self-righ teous all the time. Uncti ously self-right eous. I can think of no better term. And, as I've said before, they have presided over perhaps the most cynical admini stration, riddled with patronage, of any government ever in the hi story of this province. They were incompetent managers, they were incompetent in office, and they deserve to stay where they are for many, many years. Mr. Speaker, wh at I said at the beginning tonight is tha t th ey're incompetent in opposit10 n. So Mr.

Speaker, we can soon see that my honourable friends have an awful lot of jacking up to do. And they've lost one of their best members in the Member for lnkster. He is not there to help them, except to give them a bit of aavice from the outsiae. They're a pretty sorry lot, in a pretty sorry state, and they'r e going to have to answer for their si ns of omission and commission before they're through with this government, and before the next election is called, and it' s going to be an answering tha t not too many of them are going to like to face up to. Well, Mr.

Speaker, they like to pretend there' s no relationship between the province's financi al positi on and its ability to undertake economic development programming. The essence of what they say is, quite si mply, keep on spending. Where the money comes from is from increased taxes or from borrowing; we can deal with tha t all later. It's essentially - 289 -

Monday, 3 March irrelevant to our theory - their theory - of economic management. But ,as they themsel ves found out in the case of their many attempts to force-feed the economy, there eventually comes the aay of reckoning. And what we've been aealing with, Mr. Speaker, in the past two years, is the day of reckoning tha t was left to us by the maladminist rators who were in office before. The Member for Transcona, rm happ y to see, sit s there with a benign smile on his face. He was one of their senior bureaucrats in tha t organizatio n tha t we were able to aispense wi th overnight. Overnight.

Planning and Priorities. Just gone, li ke the flick of an eyelash. And the Government of Manitoba has never looked better better than from the ti me we got the Socialist planners out of some of the wi la-eyed planning that was going on in this province. We all know that, Mr. Speaker. Who are they trying to kid ? Mr. Speaker, you can't force-feed the economy. In the case of Hydro, as the Tritsc hler Report made very clear, they were given clear and very precise warnings every foot of the way about what they were doing whic h was so wrong, wrong, wrong.

And their obtuseness, their pigheadedness, drove the m on merely for the sake of wh at? I don't know. Were they erecting monuments to themsel ves as the Member for El mwood was wh en he build the garage that nobody needs? One can never tell wha t motivates this strange bana of people, Mr. Speaker, who dare not tell the people of Manit oba what they really believe in. Let the m stand up in candor and say , look, we believe, as the Member for Lac du Bonnet does, we believe that all the farmland in Manitoba shoula be owned by the state. Whe n have the y got the guts to do that? They haven't.

Let the m stand up ana say that we believe most of the industry in Manitoba should be ownea by the public sector. They haven't got the intesti nal forti tude to do that. No, not at all, Mr. Speaker. So I say that hypoc risy has its place, bu t not in this Legislature. And if my honourable friends think they are going to get away wi th it in here the y have got about a fourth or fifth think coming, because they are not. So, Mr.

Speaker, I believe that what Professor Kierans wrote to the then Pre mier of this province on August 13th, 1973, deserves to be repeated, because obviously my honou rable friends didn't pay too much attention to it when it was sent to th em, and I quote, "Duri ng the several months that I have been a member of the Hydro Task Force" - wh at was th at, Mark Ill - "I have become increasingly troubled by the current expansion program of Manitoba Hydro and their requests for Cabinet approval of an even greater acceleration.

Given Hydro's de mands on the capi tal markets during the next decade, I can only conclude that your government will not be able to find the dollars needed to carry on your own plans for investment in the human condi tion, 'housing, education, health, welfare, the stay option, resource exploration, and development and elimi nation of poverty'." That is the aavice they were getting from their own hand-picked advisors in 1973.

And the Leader of the Opposi tion stands up in this House a week ago and says, "We can't talk about Hyoro, because after all that might be a reflection on the Governor-General." I say if he thinks he can get away wi th tha t nonsense, he has got another think coming. Let hi m go back to his own reports tha t he had here, when they were warned by their own left-wing friends as to what they were doing. Professor Kierans went on to make a series of recommendations, one of wh ic h was: "There should be a cut-back in the existing pace of investment and capi tal construction.

If this is not done, the province will pay heavily for the excess investment in Hyoro facili ties by being forced to limit growth in other sectors of the provincial econony.11 This was 1973, Mr. Speaker. My honourable friends stand up today and say everything that went on wi th Hydro was proper. My hon ourable friends stand up today and have the gall to attemp t to castigate this government for the outflow of construction workers from the Hydro construction that they turned down in 1977 wh en, if they had followed a proper system of development on Hyoro, that construction would still be going on.

Talk about reverse English, Mr. Speaker, talk about trying to get into the chi cken coop and steal the chicken and say nobody here but us chic kens. You see them sit ting opposite, my ho nourable friends the Socialists , who say that they are fi t to govern Mani toba. They are not fit to run a peanut st and, Mr. Speaker. Of course, that advice wasn't heeded, we all know that, Mr. Speaker. We all know the result. MR . ENNS: And they paid for that advice I am sure. MR . LY ON: They had to scale down Hydro ac tivity the mselves, jus t before the election. Mind you, they di dn't bother telling anybody about it .

That is another great mark of - 290 -

Monday, 3 Marcil our Socialist friendS. They aon't tell you about the size of the aefici t until the new government gets into office and you ha ve to summon the Deputy Ministe r ana say, all right, what is really going on. And the Member who isn't here, for Seven Oaks, was the one who didn't tell us about the aefic it in 1977. He can answer to his own conscience, I am not worried abou t it . And they didn't bother telling us, Mr. Speaker, about when they turnea off Limestone in 1977. No, that is something we don't have to bother the people of Mani toba wi th.

That is the kind of integrit y we show, saia they, to the people of Manitoba. Well, we know something about their integrity, Mr. Speaker. We, of course, haa no alternative - ana have haa no alternative since - but to continue the policy of not builaing at Limestone until markets catch up to our capaci ty. There is no government in the his tory of this province that is more committed to th e development of the Nelson-Chu rchill System than this government.

After all, many of us in this government at the present time were members of the party and of the government that devisea it ano were part of the conception of it in the first place. Ana I say to you, Mr. Speaker, there is no aoubt that as soon as it is fiscally viable to get on with it, it will be gotten on wi th. But no more of the Cass Beggs ana the so-callea pho ney engineers, whose main claim to fame is that they were former Socialist canaiaates. No more of that nonsense will be inflicted on Mani toba Hydro.

If my honourable friena, the Member for Burrows, thinks that that is a laughing matt er, le t hi m reao the Tri tschler Report. Let him read the Tri tschler Report, and I think that will remove any smile that he has from his face. It is a pity the TV cameras aren't looking at him, Mr. Speaker. How anyboay can smile at the waste of �600 million because you appoint one of your politi cal friendS to the chief office in Manitoba Hydro, and ther eby prosti tute it , I aon't know - but tha t is wh at you aia. So, Mr. Speaker, how typi cal that is of the atti tuae of members opposite.

How typi cal tha t they say the actions of individ uals should be controlled. You hea rd Lac du Bonnet the other day saying that people should be forced to do this, that and other thing in the energy field, and so on. But then the y resist the argument tha t there shoula be some control ana accountability on the power ana the decisions of what is supposed the instrument of the people of Manitoba, government and the Crown corporations for wh ic h government answers.

It is interesting to contrast the comments of the Member for Lac au Bonnet wi th another piece of aovice to the government from Professior Kierans back in 1973, and I quote from pages 226 and 227 of the Tri tschler Report. "It is not enough for a government to have aspirations. It must also ha ve the aollars tha t will enable it to carry them out.

Making the hopes of Mani tobans come true will demand not only a continuing adherence to the objectives outlined in the guidelines, but careful and prudent planning to ensure that financial resources, scarce in Manitoba as anywhere else, are devotea to their attainment and not squanaerea in the premature bmlaing of aams tha t will serve to provincial needS until 1995.

If Mani toba cannot invest in human condi tions, 'housing, education, health, welfare, pensions, ana stay option, resource aevelopment and the elimination of poverty because Hyrao programs have exhausted the creait of the people, it will not be sufficient to damn the money lenaers of the east or Ne w York. People can and will rightly question the integri ty of a government wh ic h promises greater equality and pursues profi tless granaeur." Mr.

Speaker, my friend, the Leaaer of the Opposi tion, saia the other oay - ana I give him creoi t - without im puting the integrity of the Royal Commissioner, he said, "I think this is a politi cal report". I ask him, was Professor Kierans' statement a political report as an indi ctment of his ad ministration? It certainly was. It was foretola by Kierans, foretold as to wh at they were doing, and still they woulan't listen. Six hu ndrea mill10n dollars later, they still weren't listening. Twenty percent increase in Hydro rates, and they still weren't listeni ng. And the y today stand up in this House, Mr.

Speaker, and say, but we are fit, we are fit to occupy the offices of government in this House." Mr. Speaker, what greater charaae could you ever hope to see than the collec tion of indivia uals we see opposite, who have haa their chance ? You know it would be like the song that we heara at a concert recently, Bring on the Clowns. The clowns are there. I don't think the people of Mani toba are going to bring them on. Now, Mr. Speaker, we have people standing up in this House talking, as I have said, about the outf low of people when there still should be Hydro construction going on in northe rn Manitoba.

And how often did they think of that when they were in office? The members opposite like to cha racterize the Hydro slowdown and its impact on the economy as an example of our tight-fisteaness on this siae of the House. They are the ones who slowed it - 29 1 -

Monday, 3 March down. They are the ones who stopped it , and because we've continued that stoppage of construction until we can see markets, now they turn around in their hy pocrisy and say, "But you've got to start building again." Mr. Speaker, any party in this province that would turn around and repeat the disastrous errors tha t were made by my hono urable friends opposite in their eight years deserves to be wri tten out of the province. That is a precedence for disaster and I can assure my honou rable friends tha t we won't follow tha t kind of precedent. I don't expect my honourable friends, Mr.

Speaker, to concede to anything that I am saying because they li ve in their own priva te li ttle socialist nirvana. Thei r own li ttle dream world, wh ere spend, spend, spend, somebody else's money is the only thing they know. They can go around, all twenty-three or twenty-two of them - is it about to be twenty-one pretty soon? - I don't know - they can go around wit h their own pet lit tle chips on their shoulders as long as they want, but for heaven' s sake, Mr. Speaker, don't let them try to inflict tha t upon the public interest and the public will of the people of Manitoba.

Just because they are strange is no reason to inflict their strange id eas on the people of Mani toba. Mr.

Speaker, despite the transparent efforts of the members opposite to discredi t what the people of Manitoba have been able to achi eve in the last two years, the record is filled wit h ample and clear evidence in the statistics that count of si gnific ant and genuine recovery - and I am only going to highlight them: 24,000 new jobs between 1977 and 1979 in the private sector, double the number in the last two years of the NDP despi te their so-called economic planning and the shel ls of special projects tha t the y had and the multitudes of programs and hi dden defi cits and so on.

And between 1975 and 1977, only one-twelfth of the employment increase in Mani toba under their adminis tration was in the private sector. They were building up non-productive government jobs for their friends. That' s wher e the employment growth was. Make work, look after your own from any part of the world, bring them in he re and le t them inflic t their damage and then let them flit back ou t again. Well that was the employment policy of the ND P. What about the percentage rate of employment growth? In 1975 it was .5 percent. In 1976 it was 2.2. It 1977 it was .7.

In 1978 it was 2.6 and last year the annual average was 3 percent. And my ho nourable friends opposite say that we are in a state of decline in our economy. The y have never yet admi tted, Mr. Speaker, that we were in a recession in this province from 1975 to 1977, out of whic h we are clawing ourse lves at the present time, after overcoming the albatross of eight years of their maladminist ra tion and their taxation and all of the other confrontation tactics that they had on every sector of the private economy in this province. And contrary, Mr.

Speaker, to wha t members opposite try to imp ly, the part-time component in the increase was not up substantially. And here is another one of their litt le cute half-t ruths tha t has to be knocked on the head, in fact the increase in part-time employees relative to the total increase was lower between 1977 and 1979 than it was between 1975 and 1977. Mr.

Speaker, there were nearly, in the last two years, three billion dollars m private sector investment despi te the effects of national interest rates wi th wh ic h we don't agree, and threats by the members opposite to turn the clock back if they're ever se nt back to this side of the House. And following an increase of 7.2 percent in private investment in 1977, the increase was 22 percent in 1978, and 4 percent last year, and that only tells part of the story. My honourable friends can't deny those facts, much as they might wish to.

A 34 percent increas e in projected manufacturing investment in 1979, double the national average. A furthe r sign of the strengthening of this most im portant sec tor tha t bodes well for the future. Manufacturing shi pments up 20 percent last year following a 16 percent increase the year before, whi ch in turn came on top of a 3 percent increase in 1977 under that marvellous group of socialists opposite who were such great friends of industry and manufacturing and job creation. Mr. Speaker, let's ha ve enough of th at. We've had qui te enough of that hypoc risy.

A few weeks ago the Member for Brandon East put out what was purported to be the offic ial socialist economi c review of Mani toba. It was like, Mr. Speaker, reading Alice In Wonderland. In it he said that the increase in manufacturing investment is, and I quote, ''not signi fic ant" unquote, because it only amounts to relatively small proportion of total investment. That's a strange statement indeed coming from a strange collection of people, Mr. Speaker, who don't understand the im portance of manufacturing investment in Mani toba and, Mr.

Speaker, who don't understand the importance of the overall private sector in Manitoba. The y really don't. Mr. Speaker, but let us be more specific about some of this investment. The list is familia r to members on our side of the House wh o are interested in wh at is really happening - 292 -

Monaay, 3 March in the province. But to my honourable friends and some of their rare journalistic camp followers who see them around from time to time ano wh o hang on every word of theirs , wh at is really happening in the province really doesn't always get reported. Mr. Speaker, for those opposite who may have had their heads buried in the sand, let's give them a few of these facts. Shell Canada's 14 mill ion-dollar oil refinery expansion took place this year, not when they were in office.

Versatile's 26 million expansion on farm machinery manufacturing, giving 800 new jobs over the next five years, making Manitoba the biggest tractor manufacturing centre in Canaoa, that's happening here in this so-called despoiled economy that they are talking about. Great West Life, right across the street, a 62 millio n-dollar expansion of headquar ters and related projects over the next ten years. Ano typi cally using the technique that I hope my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition, will abandon - ty pi cally wha t you hear them talk about - there are 42 jobs, they say, going down to Colorado.

There is $62 million worth of development going on right unoer their noses but they want to talk about the 42 jobs going to Nevada. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that had that government of socialists been re-elected in 1977, that whole heao office complex wouldn't even be here now occupied by those tenants. They'd be all down in Nevada. Mr. Speaker, Boeings' five mill ion-dollar expansion plant, we heard some talk about th at today. The rolling mi lls in the Member for Selkirk's own constituency.

They 're putting in a five million-dollar expansion and modernization, and he says the economy is going to hell in a socialist hand basket. Tan Jay's got a f our milli on-dollar expansion. Simplot Chemi cal's got a multi mill ion-dollar expansion.

I haven't even mentioned the exceleration of activity in the area that they least like to talk about, in mining and the oil indus try, precisely because, and the industry has said so publicly several times, precisely because of the decis ion of this government fought tooth and nail by my ooctrina ire friends opposite, because of the decision to return our resource tax system to the mainstream of public policy in Canada and to make our taxes once again compe ti tiv e in Mani toba so tha t we can get more jobs in Mani toba, get more mineral development in Manitoba and not be hung up by some 19t h Century idea of the state owning and operating mines, tha t only people as naive and hy pocri tical as my honou rable frienos opposite would tend to believe.

Mr . Speaker, can they not see, can they not hear , can they not read, what is happening in mining in Mani toba? Does it take the President of International Ni ckel to come out here and say look, your mining taxation in Manitoba, the Member for Inkster was the Minister, was confiscatory, so we cut off all exploration outside of the immediate Thom pson area in Mani toba. Ano Mr. Speaker, we are now resuming it , said he, because agai n, we can see that we can make a dollar in Mani toba. Ano they're co rn m1 tted - Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend can sit and mu tter all he wants, but INCO have committed $20 million in the next five years. Not of the taxpayers' dollars. Ano those aren't taxpayers' dollars. Taxpayers' dollars should not be spen t on that kind of risk at all. If my honourable friend wants to spend $5 million ou t of his own pocket , le t him spend it. But the taxpayers of Mani toba, the semor ci ti zens, those unoer the poverty line, should not be playing this kind of dic e game with respect to min eral ano oil exploration.

Ano members opposi te wh o were great at using other people's money for their own ideas should not be confiscating taxpayers' dollars to spend it on their own airy, fairy , funny, 19th century ideas. Mr. Speaker, we heard the other oay, the Member for Transcona launch in to one of his typical attacks on multinatio nals. He maoe a great attack on the multi nationals. You know, that 's one of the great by-words of my honourable friends opposite. You've got to have slogans.

Ano my honourable friends live - you know, in human nature, there are two quali ties that are very, very unfortunate, one is hate and the other is envy. Ano my honourable friends subsist on both. Ano my hono urable friends opposite, they have to have somebody to hat e, or some organizat ion to hate. Ano their current hatred, Mr. Speaker, their current hat red, Mr. Speaker , and you've heard it from Tommy Douglas on through and that dear old chap, David Lewis, people like th at, the multinationals. They've got their own form of demonology. Their own form of demonology.

They 've got to inspire a class dif ference of some sort of other, and the Member for Transcona best personifies it - a shame , I really say it 's a shame that a man wi th his background, wi th his education, with his promise, should be so captivated by tha t kind of myopi c thinking whic h his tory denies, but you know, he's going to mature. But Mr. Speaker , here' s wh at he was saying. He was talking about the multinatio nals, ano how baa it was that multinat ionals should be coming into Canada. I remind him, Mr.

Speaker, that INCO is a multinatio nal, Inco employs close to 2,.000 people in the town of Thom pson. rm in terested in seeing INCO employ another 2,000 people in Thompson, so are the steel - 293 -

Monaay, 3 March workers, a union wh ich is fairly strong, and the support, from time to time of this party, even though not in the town of Thom pson. And I say to my honou rable friend tha t he'd better think twice before he goes around branding loosely, multin ationals. When he goes up to Thompson, he's talking about INCO. When he goes into Flin Flon, he's talking about HB M&S. Ana there are many, many multin ationals in this province, I want him to know, that are welcome ci tize ns. They are good corporate ci tize ns. We want them he re, we want them to expand in this province.

We want them to create more jobs for our young people in this province. My hono urable friend has got to learn something yet, and tha t is th at the via bility of a company's operations is extremely impor tant to the north region of this province, and to our entire province, ana so he'd better learn a funaamental lesson about politi cs in Mani toba. Sloganeering of that kind of 19t h century variety is lots of fun, bu t it ill befi ts a mind of his calibre, and it ill befits a party tha t wants to become a government in this province. Mr.

Speaker, we've heard doom and gloom from that sia e of the House about othe r numbers as well, the retail trade and so on. In 1978 the retail trade was well in excess of the 4.4 increase in 1977. Funny, isn't it , that they never make these comparative statistics or things available to the people of Manitoba? They talk about migrat ion, Mr. Speaker, the Minist er of Natural Resources drove about eight six -inch spikes into that fragile argument the other night , and I'm not going to waste the time of the House in repeating.

I merely say to my ho nourable friendS opposite, read that speech and you'll find out tha t the ne t annual out-migration in Mani toba is less than 1t was in the years of the NDP, and if you had the candor and the honesty to admit it , you would admi t tha t wha t has gone down is the in-mi gration, not the out-mi gration. The statistics have been available since last year, they were given to my ho nourable friendS, they were given to the press, everybody knows it, bu t my hono urable friendS can continue to repeat the ir half-tr uths.

And I suppose the y'll get a fair amount of success, so long as somebody still publishes wh at they say , regardless of the validity of it. So Mr. Speaker, my ho nourable friends are talking throug h their hats when they're talking about att racting and holding our skilled young people. We're doing a better job of it in terms of out-mi gration than they were. The fact is that in the market economy system, there is a strong degree of labour mobility , and there is a strong degree, Mr.

Speaker, of cap1 tal mobility, too, whic h is something that my friend from Transcona can't seem to understana, when he talks about FIRA and some of the other li ttle toys tha t he and his friends would like to play with. FIR A, I can tell him from personal experience, acts as a dampener to investment in Mani toba from Europe, from the United States and other places, from people who would like to invest money in Manitoba and create jobs for Manit obans.

My honourable friend and some of his Walter Gordon lily-pad friends in the Lib eral Party woula like to pretend other wise, but I merely say to them, that FIRA may be a gooa thing for the eastern triangle, or for the golden triangle , and maybe that' s wh ere my honourable friend ought to si t from, but it 's not a good thing for Man itoba, I can tell him that. Ana it 's not a good thing for western Canada. Mr. Speaker, the real problems and challenges that I suggest my honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposi tion should be talking about, I think deserve some at tention before this debate ends.

They are many, and they are not easily categoriz ed. They are inter-related, ana I'm only going to have the time to lis t bu t a few of them . Energy, obviously. This is the issue that is foremost in the minds of most Canadians and their governments, if not the foremost in im portance in our economic scene, next only to in flation. Energy is surely the key to our prospects for the 1980s, and as the Throne Speech empha si zed, it is critic al to our development in the next ten years in this province. Regional development - this issue is inextricably tied in with energy and other resource developments.

The shift in economic activity from east to west in the last decade is likely to accelerate in the next few years, and this means major adjus tments and specific problems in areas such as supply and allocation of investment capi tal, both domestic and from outside sources, and the supply of needed manpower. Inflation and the other general economic issues, such as interest rates, productivity, the size and growth of the public sector, and so on. These are still fundamental issues in the real political life of Manitoba, not the politi cal life that goes on in my honourable friend's caucus.

Shifting demographi c trends, as I talked abou t before, Mr. Speaker, including the changing age distribution in Manitoba, wit h respect to not only our senior ci ti zens, but wit h respect to the general aging process tha t is aftlic ting our whole population, and the need to prepare for the major impact that that is going to have, in servi ces such as health, education, housing, on income security program, partic ularly pensions and so on. - 294 -

Monday, 3 March We look in vain, as I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, for any suggestion of thought by my honourable friend or any of their colleagues, on these fundamental issues tha t affect Manitoba today. They're still playing around wit h their little dogmati c 19th century ideas, worrying about whe ther or not this Crown company is going to be sold, or that Crown company, and not getting down to the real fundamental problems that affli ct the people of Mani toba. But of course there are other problems, including transportation, of which improvements in grain handl ing remains a major priority.

Can you im agine, Mr. Speaker, a poli tical pa rty in Manitoba, that stands up and beats its breast and says that it 's going to be the next government of Mani toba , in a Throne Speech, in 1980, not talking about agriculture ana grain handling and transportation? Well, Mr. Speaker, that's wh at we've just gone through. They have no iaeas. They have no ideas. They 've got slogans, they 've got a few old catch phrases that they can haul out. They phone up some of their socialist frienas in Saskatchew an and get the odd iaea, and then the y ha ven't even got the gumption to talk about them here. Well, Mr.

Speaker, they've got to measure up and ao a better job in he re, because we could use their help. As I said before, we can use the ir iaeas, but heaven knows, when you face that kina of bankruptcy from across the way, you're not getting too much help in the fundamental job of im proving ana helping the public interest in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friends opposite are great ones, as I said earlier, at ignoring the problems that face the people of Mani toba, ana great ones at trying to talk abou t the short-term, myopic things that really will have no lasting effect or benefit upon the province. Mr.

Speaker , we saw today the swearing-in of a new federal government in Ottawa, and I re-echo tonight what I said at the outset of our proceedings this afternoon; that all partisan views aside, I suggest that that government will have the co-operation of the Government of Manitoba in respect to those matters that it wishes to carry out in the interests of all of Canada. I fear howe ver, Sir, tha t if some of the previous atti tudes of that government , of the Truaeau government, are carried forward into this new administration, that the country may well face some very severe times ahead. I think, Mr.

Speaker, that the new federal government, I hope they will continue with a number of the initiatives tha t were st arted so well under the Clark government , the practice of medium term budgeting; the attempt to open up the budgeting process; the implementation of the Key Lambert Commission recommendations for im proved financial management and accountability at the federal level; the acceleration of efforts to reduce auplication of servi ces among the various levels of government; the hi gher priority assigned to regulatory reform; and specific efforts to deal wit h our grain handling and transportation problems, through such measures as the appointment of a new grains co-ordinator.

We intend to work in co-operation with that government in our efforts to build on those import ant steps toward dealing wi th the challenges of the 1980s. I only hope that we can enlist my honourable friends opposite in those attempts to benefi t Manitoba in the 1980s, and to get their minds out of the 1880s wh ere they seem to have been mirea auring the course of the Throne Speech debate. Ana Pm sure, Mr. Speaker, that all other provinces will offer similar co-operation.

I only hope that the new federal government will accept that co-o peration ana not engage in the kind of confrontation tactics that marked it s approach in the latter years of its administration, prior to the election of May 1979. This is a time, Mr. Speaker, for a great deal more than gestures and posturing. This is a time, Mr. Speaker, for some fundamental thinking to be aone with respect to the problems of this country. Mr.

Speaker, I note for the record, the rudeness of honourable members opposite, and I note that it is not the first, nor will it be the last time in this House, when speakers have had to in terrupt privat e conversations so that my socialist friends can engage in their own kind of petty bi ckering. I just note that for the record. It doesn't bother me, because I expected nothing more. Mr.

Speaker, we in this party remember the WEOC Conference in 1973, the Western Economic Opportuni ties Conference, as a response to the 1972 electoral se tback in western Canada, and we remember the let-down that occurred afterwards, ana I know th at let-down was shared by some members of the opposition when they were in government here. We must insure, Mr.

Speaker, that if there is to be a future Western Economic Opportuni ties Conference, tha t we get meaningful commi tments from the new feaeral government to do and to play its full role in the development of western Canaaa, in a way that is good for the national public interest of this province. - 295 -

Monaay, 3 March Mr. Speaker, the opposition on the energy question likes to paint the oil pr1cmg issue in simplistic black and whi te terms - or is it better describea as blue ana rea terms, I aon't know. But they should remember their own position when they were in government with respect to provincial resource ownershi p, ana the federal government's aisallowance of royalty deductibility. And they should remember, Mr.

Speaker, that they were in a position, in those days, to take some positions based on integrity; ana one can hope tha t they will return to that position wh ile they are having their free-for-all in opposition. Mr. Speaker, I am sure tha t the round of consultations wi th defeated Lib eral canaiaates that were carried on by Mr. Axworthy and Mr. Bockstael last week was great fun, bu t I really don't think it's going to contribu te too much to an understanding of wh at the west is all about.

Our government is prepared and anxious to work for the new federal government, and we're preparea to start that co-operation from Day One. And I want to empha si ze tha t our administration recognizes the need for a strong federal government. Anyone who aoubts that fact should take the time to read wha t has been saia consis tently by this government at the First Ministers' Conferences on the Consti tution, and the Economic Conferences as well. Well, Mr. Speaker , time has flitted by and I have not been able to talk on all of the topi cs that I wish to speak upon tonig ht.

But I want to assure my honourable friendS opposite that there will be many many other opportuni ties, ana tha t they have n't really begun to hear all that they're going to hear, not only in the recapi tulation of what I have described earlier as being the greatest piece of cover-up and decei t ever practisea by a government ana by a Crown corporation in the hist ory of our country - namely the aebacle of Manitoba Hydro - but with respect to the other mat ters over which they ha ve presided so neglig ibly auring the ir years in office. Ana those will not be done as a rehe arsal of hist ory, Mr.

Speaker, but rather in terms of how we can imp rove administ ration in Manitoba at the present time , and how we can avoid the clear-cut errors that were so clearly etched by my ho nourable friendS opposite in tha t meandering trail that they followed when the y had the responsibility of government on this side of the House. Mr. Speaker, I could talk tonight, if ti me permitted, about the misunderstanding that the Leaaer of the Opposition apparently has - I would say it' s not a misunderstanding, he really doesn't comprehend what the province's energy position was at the November 12t h Conference.

Th ere is a copy of tha t statement tha t was made at that Conference whi ch I will glaaly send to his office. I hope he will read it , and then he may come to a fuller understanding, rather than reading news clippings or bulletins from the New Democrat as to what the position of the province was. We believe in self-sufficiency in Canaaa by 1990. Anyone wit h half a brain believes in tha t. We believe, Mr. Speaker, tha t the price of fossil fuels has to go up. Anyone knows tha t is going to happen, notwit hstanding the protestations made auring the election campaign.

We believe that the differential price on old and new gas works a detriment to the people of Manitoba. And we would like to hear my honourable friendS opposit e comment upon that policy , because we ha ve heard nothing yet with respect to the ir general indic tments on energy that get down to cases, and talk about the prices that Manitobans may well have to pay if tha t kind of policy is im plemented in our province. The Leader of the Opposi tion looks at me in astonishmen t, as well he might. I doubt if he' s ever heard of the topic before. But I say tha t he must inform him self. I say again, Mr.

Speaker, that mental sloth has no place in this Legislature. You can get away wit h that in the hustings, but you can't get away wi th it in the Legislature. Ana I say to my honou rable friend that we will continue our process of his education, and try to make out of him a better Leader of the Opposition, although God knows he'll never make a Premier. Mr. Speaker, I regret very much that, in responding to the Throne Speech utterances that ha ve been made by members opposite, I am now fast running out of time.

I wouldn't want the Member f or Brandon to have me sit down, of course, wi thou t reminding him that I know, when it comes to the topi c of outflow of population, I have in front of me those woras tha t were quoted the other night by the Minist er of Consumer Affairs, by my ho nourable friend when he was Minis ter of Industry and Commerce, wh en he was saying that populat10n growth, in fact, may be the anti thesis of real economic growth.

Those words should be inscr ibed and hu ng on some form of a brass plate in this House to demonstrate to my hono urable friendS opposite that when you're in government, when you're defending your proposition, you may say one thing; when you're in opposition, you say another thing, but sooner or later the truth catches up wit h you. And I say to my ho nourable friend that I appreciat e the candor with wh ich he spoke in that debate back in 1970 , was it, wh en he was speaking about cruae growth, and wh en he was - 296 -

Monday, 3 Marc\1 speaking about population not being an indic ator of growth at all. And at the same time, then he turns around and goes before the people of Manitoba and says that because there is an alleged discre pancy of 3,000 in the population of Mani toba, the economy of Mani toba is going to hell in a Socialist hand basket. Well, I say to the people of Manitoba tonight, Mr.

Speaker, that they should perhaps judge all of the comments of my honourable friends opposite, on the basis of wh at my honou rable friend, the Member for Brandon East said on an earlier occasion about population growth and wh at he is now saying. And wh at we have been saying all along, Mr. Speaker, is that the economic condi tion of this province is improving, after the devastating buffeting that my honourable friends gave it with their taxation policie s and so on over the years from 1969 to 1977. We rest content wit h our record, there is a new era opening up in Manitoba, and we are going to vote against, Mr.

Speaker, their ill-conside red amendment against this Throne Speech. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. According to our rules, Rule No. 35(3), the hour being 9:30, the question of the amendments to the Throne Speech, first of all we'll deal with the sub-amendment moved by the Honourable Member f or Inkster , and that amendment be furthe r amended by adding thereto the following: "A nd this House declares its want of confidence in the present government for the following reasons: 1.

That the government has made no progress in the directio n of providing socially financed and universally accessible post-secondary education and child care; 2. That the government is embarking on a program of using public funds to support priva te business; 3. That the government has and in tends to continue the privateering of viable publicly-owned commercial enterprises such as Tantalum Mines, Cybershare and Dormond Industries, whic h have failed in the private sector and have been made viable through public effort and initiat ive; and, 4.

The government is failing to take adVantage of opportunities available for public investment and ownershi p in the resource based indust ries, and has instead demonstrated it s abject dependence on private companies for mining exploration and development." QUESTION put, MOTIO N defeated. MR . GREEN: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA K ER: Call in the members. Order please. All th ose in favour of the Sub-Amendment, please rise.

A STAND ING VOTE was taken, the results being as follows: YEAS AD AM CORRIN GREEN PARA SIUK BARROW COWA N HANUSCHAK PA WL EY BOSTR OM DES JARDIN S JENKINS SCH ROE DER BOY CE DOER N McBRYD E URU SKI CHE RNIACK EV ANS MALINOWSKI WA LDING FOX MILLER NAY S AND ERSO N DRIEDGER JOHNSTON MERCIER BANM AN EIN ARSON JORGENSON MIN AK ER BLAK E ENNS KOVNATS OR CHA RD BR OWN FERGUSON LYON PRICE COSENS FILM ON Mac M ASTER RAN SOM CRAIK GALBR AIT H McGILL SHER MAN DOMI NO GOURLAY McGREGOR WES TBURY DOWNE Y HYD E McK ENZIE WILSON MR. CLERK: Yeas 22, Nays 32. - 297 -

Monday, 3 March MR. SPEAK ER: I declare the Sub-Amendment lost. We are now dealing wi th the Amendment as proposed by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PA WL EY: Same division? MR.

SPEAKER: But this House regrets that this government: 1) has show n its incompetence in managing the economy of Manitoba causing an exodus of businesses and people from our province, and depressing economic growth rate to the lowest in Canada, 2) has shifted funding in taxation resulting in increased user fees, post secondary tuit ion fees and a heavier burden of property taxation, 3) and has permi tted the deterioration in co mprehensive healt h care for Mani tobans while at the same ti me, increasing user fees for nursing ho mes and Pharmacare. QU ESTION pu t, MOTION defeated. MR .

PETER FOX (Kildonan ): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Call in the members. Order please. All those in favour of the Motion please rise.

A STANDING VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: YE AS AD AM CORRI N GREEN PARASIUK BARR OW CO WA N HANUSCHAK PA WL EY BOSTROM DES JARD INS JENKINS SCH ROEDE R BOYCE DOERN McBR YD E URU SKI CHE RNIACK EVANS MALIN OWSKI WA LDING FOX MIL LER WESTBURY NAY S AND ERSO N DRIEDGER JOHNSTON MERCIE R BANMAN EIN AR SON JORGEN SON MIN AK ER BLAK E ENNS KOVNATS ORCHA RD BROWN FER GUSON LYON PRICE COSENS FIL MON Mac M ASTER RAN SOM CR AIK GA LBR AITH McGILL SHER MAN DOMI NO GOURLAY McGREGOR WI LSON DOWNE Y HYD E McK ENZIE MR. CLE RK: Yeas 23, Nays 31 . MR . SPEAKER: I declare the Amendment lost.

On the Proposed Motion of the Honourable Member for River Heig hts - the Honourable Me mber for The Pas. MR. McBRYD E: Mr. Speaker, I wondered if you wanted to call it 10:00 o'clock. MR. SPEAK ER: Is there agreement to call it 10:00 o'clock? (A greed) The hour being 10:00 o'clock , the House is adjourned and stanas adjourned until 2:3 0 tomorrow afternoon. (Tuesday) - 298 -

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-8b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 8b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	49d44e4ac007b62e74824ecdf53f7ac15703c12e

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