March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 337 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, March 26, 1982 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. KNAAK: Mr.

Speaker, I move that the following petitions for private Bills be read and received: 1. the petition of the Lethbridge Country Club for the Lethbridge Country Club Amendment Act, 1982; 2. the petition of the Holy Cross Hospital for the Holy Cross Hospital of Calgary Amendment Act, 1982; 3. the petition of the Alberta Wheat Pool for the Alber­ ta Wheat Pool Amendment Act, 1982; 4. the petition of the Canadian Lutheran Bible Institute for the Canadian Lutheran Bible Institute Amend­ ment Act, 1982; 5. the petition of Brian Mann, D.G.

Sayler, Robert Hladun, Kenneth Burton, and Robert Blakely for the Dunrich Trust Company Act; 6. the petition of the Montreal Trust Company and Montreal Trust Company of Canada for the Mon­ treal Trust Company of Canada Act; 7. the petition of Joseph Spier, Gertrude Cohos, Bruce Libin, Gordon Hoffman, Norman Dvorkin, and Mark Shuler for the Calgary Jewish Centre Act; 8. the petition of the city of Edmonton for the Edmon­ ton Convention and Tourism Authority Act; 9. the petition of the city of Edmonton for the Edmon­ ton Economic Development Authority Act; 10. the petition of Gerrard McGinley and Douglas Hard­ ing Mitchell for the Campbell McLaurin Foundation for Hearing Deficiencies Act.

MR. SPEAKER: Having heard the motion for the read­ ing and receiving of these petitions, does the Assembly agree that they be received? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, today I would like to file with the Legislature copies of a letter dated August 19, 1981, from me, as minister responsible for Alberta Dis­ aster Services, to the Hon. Yvon Pinard, minister respon­ sible for Emergency Planning Canada.

These letters deal with the matter of emergency planning in Canada and the federal government's intention, announced on June 5, to deal with emergency planning legislation. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Interest Rates MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Provincial Treasurer, with regard to yesterday's statement of the Governor of the Bank of Canada, indicating that we should have a get-tougher monetary policy in Canada to control inflation.

Has the Alberta government made a submission to the Governor of the Bank of Canada, indicating to him that there is free enterprise in Canada and that he should do something about it to help it grow? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, at the first ministers' meeting held in Ottawa earlier in the year, the hon. Premier made a number of suggestions, in a very vi­ gorous form, to the Governor of the Bank of Canada and the Prime Minister and the government of Canada, with respect to fiscal matters and with regard to made-in- Canada interest rates and the need for steps to reduce inflation.

Those submissions have been made very vi­ gorously by the government. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the hon. Provincial Treasurer. Recognizing that the Governor of the Bank of Canada, who gets a salary of over $100,000, may be a little insensitive and didn't hear the first submission of the Alberta government, is the government preparing a second submission with a little more vigor and emphasis, and quite soon? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, if it's appropriate to do that and we feel it would be effective and useful, we will do so. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion.

Will the provincial government, through the Provin­ cial Treasurer or the Premier, take the initiative to estab­ lish a meeting with the Governor of the Bank of Canada, soon? Many people in Alberta now suffer under the pressures of the economy, in terms of mortgages, interest rates, and loss of businesses and farms. Would the Pro­ vincial Treasurer take it upon himself, with the Premier, to establish a meeting as soon as possible? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, as I said, if we feel that something like that would be useful — and we've already made vigorous representations — then that point of view would be pursued.

MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. Does the Provincial Treasurer feel it's necessary, or does he not? At the present time, is the economy in Alberta satisfactory to the government? MR. HYNDMAN: That's a different question, Mr. Speaker. In the budget, it was indicated that a number of steps have been taken, and others will be taken by the government, to bring about the resurgence of the Alberta economy. We are not an island though. As the hon. member knows, the question of monetary decision-making in the country is controlled essentially through the federal gov­ ernment.

Let's remember that the Bank of Canada is an arm of the federal government. We will continue to make every representation necessary to try to get the federal government to put in place a program of confidence. That involves a new federal budget, for example, among

338 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 other things. As well, we'd continue representations on interest rates in the bank. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question. The Provincial Treasurer said that essentially the federal gov­ ernment sets the monetary policy of this continent. But I don't believe that, Mr. Speaker. Governor Bouey of the Bank of Canada seems to be controlling the works. Could the Provincial Treasurer take on the responsibility of establishing a meeting with the Governor of the Bank of Canada as soon as possible? Will the Provincial Treasurer take on that commitment? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in the past, we've al­ ways made those representations when we thought they would be most effective. We'll continue to view it in that manner. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, to the Provincial Treasurer: that answer is completely inadequate and not responsible, in light of today's economic conditions. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. If the hon. leader wishes to debate the answer, there are ample means for debate, outside the question period. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. I certainly agree with you that there is some debate.

But it's frustrating to Albertans that the government seems to delay before dealing with the problem. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. With great respect to the hon. leader, that also is a debatable matter. The same question, in substance, has been asked two or three times now. If the hon. leader finds that the question period is not a proper or adequate place to debate it, let's put it some place where all the members can get into the debate. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a short supplementary ques­ tion.

Can the Treasurer indicate to this Assembly if the provincial government is going to take immediate action to bring the concerns of Albertans to the federal govern­ ment? Yes or no? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think Albertans know that the initiative in Canada with respect to made-in- Canada interest rates was taken by the government of Alberta. Through the initiatives of the Premier, nine other provinces joined this province in putting forward a concept which is now being actively debated in the coun­ try; that was a made-in-Canada interest rate.

So when it comes to protecting Albertans from their federal govern­ ment, Albertans know we're in the forefront. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer. At this time, will the provincial government be making representation to the federal gov­ ernment? Yes or no? [interjections] He has not answered the question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister is under as little obligation to answer questions as the hon. member is to put them. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, as long as the point is made clear that the hon. minister will not answer the question, then the people out there will decide. MR. KNAAK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary on this point. Given that neither the Trudeau government nor Governor Bouey have listened to the people of Canada on this point, does the minister anticipate action by the federal government and the head of the Bank of Canada on additional representations from the Provincial Treasurer? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, representations have been made time and time again and, as I mentioned, most effective recently, by this province taking the leadership role. We will continue to do that whenever we think effective representation can be made. It has been made, and it will be made in future. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the Provincial Treasurer, with regard to the made-in- Canada interest rate.

Has consideration been given, or would it be given, to a made-in-Alberta interest rate, using the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund, through the Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation, the Alberta Opportunity Company, and the Agricultural Develop­ ment Corporation? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think hon. members who think that through will realize that concept is simply impractical and not feasible in the Canadian nation. This year we will continue to provide $300 million worth of interest subsidies to help farmers, small business men, home-owners, and municipal property tax payers.

But it's not feasible to have a heritage fund for — I think it would be gone in a year to 15 months . . . MR. R. SPEAKER: To Albertans? MR. HYNDMAN: . . . if one tried to shelter in Canada and have made-in-Alberta interest rates. [interjections] AN HON. MEMBER: Listen. You might learn something. MR. HYNDMAN: If we want to hear funny money concepts again, let's hear them. The practical effect is that you can't have made-in-Alberta interest rates. DR. BUCK: Time to go, Lou. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Has the minister received representations from Albertans for low interest rate loans from the heritage fund? I ask this because the Member for Edmonton Whitemud asked whether the Canadian government was listening to Canadians, and I'm now asking whether the provincial government is listening to Albertans. MR. HYNDMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. For example, re­ presentations are received from beginning farmers for loans at 6 per cent, and those are being made. Represen­ tations are received from young householders who are buying homes and getting subsidies of up to $550 a month, and they're being approved.

There are representa­ tions from farmers, under the Ag. Development Corpora­ tion, at 9 per cent. They're being approved. MR. R. SPEAKER: Loans at the going rate.

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 339 MR. HYNDMAN: All these representations are being looked at, and the interest subsidies are rifled in for support for those who need it most. MR. KESLER: A supplementary . . . MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary with regard to low-interest loans. Would the Provincial Treasurer give consideration to making low-interest loans to the agricultural community if those loans were secured by capital which could not leave the province? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think those loans are being made now under the Agricultural Development Corporation. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementa­ ry. Would the Provincial Treasurer . . . MR. SPEAKER: This is a post-final supplementary, which seems to be a bird peculiar to this House. DR. BUCK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. [interjec­ tions] Well, wait until you listen to it, will you? Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. As the Speaker, I believe you have established that if a person has a supplementary question and there are follow-up supple­ mentary questions, you have been allowing those. The hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo is asking a supplemen­ tary question to his supplementary, after he got the answer. MR.

SPEAKER: Perhaps there are some limitations to the side vision of the hon. Member for Clover Bar. He may not have noticed that the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo and the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury were on their feet at the same time. At that time, the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo held the floor by saying that was his final supplementary. I accepted his statement, and he is now coming with another supplementary. I will be glad to come back to him, but I think in fairness we have to go to the Member for Olds-Didsbury. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order.

When an hon. member asks a question and the answer is given — even though he says that's a final supplementary, the answer may trigger a further supplementary question. You can't make a decision on that until you've heard the question and the answer. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Either we're going to have final sup- plementaries, or we aren't. If we aren't, somebody is going to have to say: this is my final supplementary, provided I'm happy with the answer. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order.

I had intended the third question to be the final one, but the response by the minister inspired me to ask a final question with regard to fixing interest rates at 10 percent from the Heritage Savings Trust Fund to the agricultural community. But since you won't allow me to ask that question, I won't do it. [laughter] MR. SPEAKER: That's not the point. We're using up question period time. Let's hear from the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury, then go back to Calgary Buffalo. MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Would the Provincial Treasurer just answer yes or no? That's all, just yes or no.

Do we in Alberta not have any control at all over our economic situation, due to the political structure of this country? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes or no. MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I think I've indicated that we have interest shielding through the various pro­ grams mentioned. We have an economic strategy and policy that's known and understood in this province, and we've had it for 10 years. We are, of course, members of the nation of Canada. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker . . . MR. SPEAKER: I didn't want to interrupt the hon. member. I think it's an example of the latitude we have in this House in the question period.

But that was clearly asking for an opinion and asking for debate. Again, the Order Paper is there. Any debating matters may be placed on it, especially this early in the session. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the Provincial Treasurer. Does the economic stra­ tegy of the Conservative government support Governor Bouey's position that the present tight money policy of Canada is not tight enough to combat inflation? MR. HYNDMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. We've indicated that we have a number of concerns with those federal policies, and we'll continue to offer them advice. MR.

SPEAKER: I regret — I promised to recognize the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo. MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Provincial Treasurer, with regard to the control the federal government has over the direction of the economy. Was the recent budget intended to amelior­ ate the short-term effects of the recession, or was there a long-term goal in mind with regard to a forecasted depre­ ssion in the North American economy?

If so, perhaps he might relate that to the interest rate policy of the government, through loans to the Agricultural Develop­ ment Corporation, for example, specifically with regard to a ceiling of 10 per cent on loans to the agricultural community. MR. HYNDMAN: That's a pretty involved question, Mr. Speaker. I gather it's a question of the short- and medium-term goals of the government.

The short-term goal certainly was to stimulate the Alberta economy with $5 billion worth of capital and a multiplier of perhaps three to that, through the situation we have in Alberta now, which is different from the previous seven years. In the middle term, the budget sets the stage for the private enterprise engine of the economy to encourage private investment, risk taking, and confidence and, in the '80s, build the same kind of opportunities, jobs, and new in­ vestment as we had in the '70s. Electric Energy Marketing Agency MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Utilities and Telephones, with regard to the Alberta Energy Marketing Agency that I understand is to

340 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 be put in place by September 1,

an Act of this Conserva­ tive government that's another interventionist, bureau­ cratic program. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm sure that in fairness the hon. leader would well recognize the nature of what he has said, without any further comment on my part. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, is the minister putting staff in place at this time, and how large will that bureaucratic staff be? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, we have not commenced hiring any of the staff to operate within the terms of the Electric Energy Marketing Act. That will be undertaken during the next month or so.

I find it rather interesting that the hon. leader made those comments, when he supported the legislation last fall. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, the verbal vote is recorded. The hon. minister can look back. My question to the hon. minister is: how many staff are projected to be utilized in administering this board? At this time, has the minister been able to determine with confidence the costs to the consumers in Calgary, Ed­ monton, and other centres of Alberta? When the Bill was before us in the Legislature last November, the minister had no reliable costs and figures.

Have those costs been determined at this point in time, and can they be tabled in this Legislature? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, we propose to retain eight people to operate the agency. The numbers, our projec­ tions, are in hand. I'd be pleased to discuss them with the members of the Assembly when the estimates of the department are debated. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion. Can the minister table those studies of projections prior to the estimates, so we can examine and study them and certainly question them with some kind of confi­ dence? [interjection] MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, on a point of order. I will not take that kind of comment from the Minister of Municipal Affairs. If the hon. minister wants to say something about a member of this Legislature, he can stand in his place, not hide behind his desk. I won't take that from the hon. minister. [interjections] MR. SPEAKER: I regret it seems that whatever the hon. minister said was said sotto voce, and I didn't hear it. MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, all I said was that the hon. member wouldn't be able to understand the tables at any rate. [interjections] MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order.

The hon. minister can make those kinds of comments, but it only reflects on himself in the same way. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll give consideration to the suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition. The diffi­ culty in tabling those sorts of figures is that they are projections and only projections. The difficulty that fol­ lows tabling projections is that some members may con­ sider them to be fixed in stone, and that could provide some difficulties. But I'll give the suggestion consideration. MR. R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question.

In light of his comments, can the hon. minister indicate the relia­ bility of those figures at this time? Is there confidence that they are good projections, or are they on target at present? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I'm not clear on what is intended in the question, in terms of what material the Leader of the Opposition is referring to. There are projec­ tions for the upcoming year, as well as for future years. The accuracy of those projections can't be guaranteed. However, I have confidence that they're the best possible estimates that can be obtained with the information we have in hand. MR.

SINDLINGER: If I might, Mr. Speaker, a supple­ mentary with regard to the Electric Energy Marketing Act and the Alberta energy marketing board. As I recall, when that Act was debated last fall, it was indicated there would be a five-year phase-in period wherein a subsidy would be paid. The question I put to the minister is whether or not that five-year subsidy period is still contemplated, or whether it would be lengthened or shortened. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, nothing has changed. The intention is to provide a subsidy over the five-year period. MR. SINDLINGER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister then indicate the magnitude of that subsidy over the five-year period? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, this year we're asking the Assembly to approve $72 million. We expect that the requirement for the five-year period will be between $320 million and $350 million. MR. SINDLINGER: Indeed a final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the minister indicate where the major portion of that $320 million subsidy will go over the next five years, with special reference to that amount which would go to the city of Calgary? MR. SHABEN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd be pleased to go into considerable detail on the application of the subsidy. It would be more appropriate to do that during debate on the estimates of the department, because of the detail required in the answer. MR. SINDLINGER: A supplementary . . . Did I say, indeed a final? I did, didn't I? DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a short . . . MR. SPEAKER: Incidentally, on those questions. I re­ alize we have quite a short list today of members who wish to ask questions, so perhaps there should be more latitude.

But there has been very considerable latitude with regard to those questions, because I'm sure all hon. members will recognize that they're all questions that would be asked in dealing with estimates. It would seem to me to be part of my duty to chair a question period which is a question period and not a debate or an interrogation on estimates.

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 341 MR. SINDLINGER: Mr. Speaker, I don't want to let that one go by, because it might establish something here that we wouldn't want to have established. The question wasn't simply with regard to the estimates for the coming fiscal year; it dealt with estimates for the next five years. Therefore we would not have an opportunity to question the minister in that regard when we deal with this year's estimates. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. This has to do with policy.

Can the minister indicate what role the Union of REAs or their representa­ tives will play in the Electric Energy Marketing Agency? Will they play a role? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, in the course of the past number of months, the Union of REAs has been involved in discussions with our implementation team. They'll con­ tinue to be involved, as they are an important segment of the consumers, and the numbers of associations and the impact of the agency is important. So we've worked close­ ly with them and will continue that liaison with the Union of REAs, as well as with the utilities and the cities. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to ask the indulgence of the Assembly to revert to introduction of visitors before I ask my question. MR. SPEAKER: Normally we haven't done this in the question period, partly because it's necessary for the Chair to measure the lapse of time. Perhaps we could make a one-time exception in this case. I don't think we've done this for years. I realize that some visitors are here for just a short time and may not stay beyond the end of the question period, but it would raise some diffi­ culties. Like all things of that kind, it would probably become a custom. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, then do I have permission of the Assembly? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS DR. BUCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker and members of the Assembly. I'd like to introduce 43 grade 6 students from the Lamont Elementary school. They are accom­ panied by their teacher Mr. Kitura, Mrs. Maudie, and their bus driver Mr. Danyluk. They are seated in the members gallery, and I'd ask them to rise and receive the welcome of the Legislature. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (continued) Canada Bill — Proclamation DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs.

In light of the fact that the Canada Bill has passed third reading in the British Parliament, through the House of Lords, can the hon. minister indicate what plans the government of Alberta has to celebrate, with the federal government, the Queen's proclamation in Ottawa? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Member for Clover Bar reports, we're very pleased that the Canada Bill successfully passed third reading of the House of Lords yesterday, along with the Alberta amending formu­ la and many of the Alberta priorities which this Assembly and this government carried forward.

We are now waiting for details from Ottawa which will outline the way our new constitution will be formally recognized here. I imagine part of that plan would in­ clude the visit of Her Majesty to Ottawa, where she will give royal proclamation to the Act. At this point, I do not have full details, except that it is my understanding that the Premier will be very much involved in the ceremonies. Certainly we look forward to the opportunity to have a Canadian constitution. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Can the hon.

Government House Leader indicate to the Assembly if the government has any plans for some type of ceremony here in the Assembly, the day the proclamation is made by Her Majesty the Queen? MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's suggestion is an interesting one. I had not given it consid­ eration until the present time, but certainly the appropri­ ateness of something like that should be considered. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Have the hon.

Minister of Education and the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower given any consider­ ation to some type of commemorative celebration in our schools in this province? MR. KING: The Department of Education has not, Mr. Speaker. I can't speak for the Department of Advanced Education and Manpower. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question to the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker. In some of those programs antici­ pated for bringing home the constitution, have you con­ sidered flying the Alberta flag at half-mast? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Speaker, I would simply like to reply that I feel a very strong sense of loyalty to our Queen and to this country. On behalf of myself and this government, I'm sure we'll participate fully in this very important consideration. I think it's time to get on with it. [interjections] Municipal Financing MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Could the minister assure the Assembly that 11 per cent financing will still be available for borrowing by municipalities in the upcom­ ing fiscal year? MR. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I cannot.

We normally make a decision on that matter before the beginning of the new fiscal year. The matter is presently under consid­ eration, and next week I hope to be in a position to make an announcement on the interest subsidy program for the next fiscal year. MRS. OSTERMAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the minister consulted with the municipalities to ascertain their projected needs?

342 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 MR. MOORE: In terms of total dollar financing, yes. I think it's fair to say we have consulted sufficiently with municipalities to know approximately what their borrow­ ing needs might be for the next fiscal year. Hopefully I, as well as the hon. Provincial Treasurer, will be in a position in the near term to indicate whether those moneys will be available from the Municipal Financing Corporation. MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, as it's already been done once today, would it be in order to introduce some visi­ tors who have arrived late? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR.

SPEAKER: I must thank the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury for having made my prediction come true so soon. There appears to be a general murmur of agreement in the House. I thought we had a one-time precedent; we now have a two-time precedent. It would be my respectful suggestion to the House that that be the ceiling. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of order. AN HON. MEMBER: There is no point of order. DR. BUCK: I'm raising a point of order then. Mr.

Speaker, there are many instances, especially on Friday mornings — and possibly members' services or someone should look at it — when it is very difficult for schools to get in early, so they can have their picture taken, et cetera, and be in the gallery in time for the introduction of visitors. Responsible members that we are in this Assembly, I don't think we would abuse the privi­ lege. But when it arises, I think we should consider it. MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. I think all members would particularly like to accommodate our visitors, who are very special for all of us.

I wonder whether the hon. members opposite and all members shouldn't consider that even though guests may arrive late, certainly the introduction could occur between ques­ tion period and Orders of the Day. That would not take away from the special request, which I hope all members will grant, as it's been raised. But the learning experience should be that we raise it after the end of question period and before Orders of the Day. MR. SPEAKER: There's no question, I'll follow the wishes of the House. That's my job. But as matters stand, I'm obliged to follow Standing Orders and the daily routine.

All it requires is one dissenting voice from the House, and an exception cannot then be made. However, would the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury please express the welcome of all of us to his guests. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. KELSER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the public gallery today are some people who are more familiar to me in a different arena. Would Mr.

Keith Hyland, presi­ dent of the Canadian Rodeo Cowboys' Association, and directors Jim Freeman and Steve Dunham, from Turner Valley, stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (continued) Oil Industry Incentives MR. KESLER: A supplementary question to the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, Mr. Speaker. The hon. minister made the statement that new incentives will be offered to oil companies. Can the hon. minister assure this Assembly that these incentives will be part of a positive free enterprise program and not additional dole? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, as we've indicated, in the near future we will be proposing some changes in the royalty system and incentive programs in the province. I ask the hon. member to wait until those become public. Then, if appropriate, perhaps we can have a debate over their nature. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. As many are aware of the urgency of the situation, can the hon. minister give a time frame for the implementa­ tion of those programs? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member's question really involves specifying a date.

As I've indicated on a number of occasions in the House, that is not something I can do at this time. We're certainly very much aware of the need for prompt action and are keeping that in mind. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Can the hon. minister indicate if a study has been under­ taken to determine the number of oil-related companies that are in financial difficulty at this time? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, there have been a number of analyses of that situation, some done by industry associations. We've been meeting with those associations on a periodic and regular basis.

I have been informed of the results of their analysis and, of course, we get infor­ mation of that nature from other sources as well. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon. minister give us a percentage of those companies in financial difficulty today? MR. LEITCH: No, Mr. Speaker, I couldn't. DR. BUCK: A supplementary question to the hon. Min­ ister of Energy and Natural Resouces.

Can the minister indicate if the incentive programs he is looking at provid­ ing for the petroleum and natural gas industry will be brought in while the session is on, so the minister's estimates can be debated at that time? Or is he looking at it when the House rises from the spring sittings? MR. LEITCH: I can't, Mr. Speaker. I'm not sure how long the session will be. MR. SINDLINGER: A supplementary for clarification, Mr. Speaker. I didn't quite hear the minister. Could he indicate whether he said a reduction in royalties on oil and gas was being contemplated? MR. LEITCH: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps the hon. member was not in the House when this matter was dealt with on other occasions. I think I said on a number of occasions that we indicated early in September that we would be

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 343 reviewing the royalty system within the province, that in our view there were anomalies and inequities within that system, and that when we're able to complete that review we would be making changes to remove those. MR. SINDLINGER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the changes to ameliorate the anomalies just referred to by the minister. Would consideration be given to changes in marketing programs or policies, in conjunction with royalty changes?

I ask this because it might be possible to reduce royalties to zero — hypothet­ ically speaking, of course — but if there aren't markets for oil and gas, we're not going to sell it, regardless of the royalty rate. So any changes to those programs or poli­ cies have to take into consideration the marketing condi­ tions as well. MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to respond to the question of the hon. Member for Calgary Buffalo, which has highlighted the difficulty created by the indus­ try as a result of lack of markets.

In that respect, I would like to give the Assembly some up-to-date information with respect to the shut-in production that will occur during the month of March. Earlier, I indicated in the House that 53,000 barrels of heavy oil and 57,000 barrels of light and medium oil per day would be shut in during the month of March. I can now update that information, Mr. Speaker, because I've recently been advised by the Energy Resources Conserva­ tion Board that the light and medium oil shut in is likely to increase from 57,000 barrels to 93,000 barrels per day.

That has occurred within the past few days as a result of the pipeline not taking, in inventory, the volumes that had earlier been anticipated by the Energy Resources Conservation Board. Mr. Speaker, in response to the question of markets for oil — and again, this is a matter that has been dealt with in the House on a number of occasions — we have made intensive representations and submissions to have the ex­ isting marketing system in Canada changed to ensure that production from Alberta, and indeed from the whole western sedimentary basin, will have a market. Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member's question also high­ lights the fact that the lack of natural gas markets is a serious impediment to industry activity. We are taking a number of actions in that respect, including the study being taken in conjunction with industry, which I'm sure the hon. member is familiar with, into the feasibility of a natural gas storage system.

In addition, at my request the Alberta Petroleum Marketing Commission is now ap­ pearing before the National Energy Board in a three- phase hearing relating to the export of natural gas and is pressing very firmly for changes in the method of assess­ ing the surplus available in Canada for export. It's making some positive and, I think, constructive recom­ mendations to the National Energy Board.

With the industry associations and with individual companies in industry, we are also reviewing steps that may be taken by the government of Alberta, in conjunc­ tion with industry, to improve natural gas marketing prospects, particularly in the United States but also out­ side North America. MR. SINDLINGER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

With regard to the three-phase hearing on marketing natural gas, which is before the National Energy Board, might the minister report on progress made by the Alber­ ta delegation or representatives — I don't know if it's to the federal Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources or not — with regard to the anomaly of shut-in Alberta production compared to the import of foreign oil, occa­ sioned more or less by the oil import compensation program of the federal government? Could the minister indicate whether there have been any positive indications from the federal government that this anomaly will be ameliorated? MR.

LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I've been advised that changes will be made. Until I know the details of those changes, I couldn't comment on whether, in our judg­ ment, they will relieve the problem or resolve it. MR. SINDLINGER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speak­ er. Could the minister indicate the timetable for those changes? Are they contemplated to be immediate, in the near future, some time over the summer, or into the winter? MR. LEITCH: Mr. Speaker, I haven't been advised by the federal government of the dates on which the changes will be made, nor indeed of the details of the changes.

So until I have that information, I can't respond to the hon. member's question. Beef Imports MR. KESLER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. In light of the exposure in the past week of importation of millions of pounds of bone­ less beef into the Canadian market place from Europe, has the hon. minister taken any action or conferred with his hon. federal counterpart, to express the dissatisfaction of this government with that policy? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr.

Speaker, on many occasions dis­ cussions have been held with the federal Minister of Agriculture with regard to the importation of offshore beef, in this case boneless beef. Over the years, not only industry representatives but the province has asked for a limitation on the amount of beef that enters this province, and to give that type of support to our Canadian indus­ try. So yes, representations have been made to the federal government on many occasions. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question to the hon. minister, Mr. Speaker. Has anything specific been done about this problem that has just surfaced? MR.

SCHMIDT: There has been no report as of this week, Mr. Speaker. MR. KESLER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Would the hon. minister then take action and relate his concerns, or the concerns of this government, to the federal Minister of Agriculture, and report the response to this House? MR. SCHMIDT: Mr. Speaker, we will review with both the industry and the packer industry, and report any action that's been taken.

344 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Third Reading) Bill 26 Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1982 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move third reading of Bill No. 26, the Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1982. [Motion carried; Bill 26 read a third time] head: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY [Mr. Appleby in the Chair] MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Committee of Supply please come to order. Department of Advanced Education and Manpower MR. CHAIRMAN: Do any members wish to comment or ask questions? MRS. EMBURY: First of all, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to commend the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower and his department for being very sensi­ tive to the needs of Albertans, with regard to the variety of educational programs offered in this province. Of par­ ticular interest to me, of course, are the nursing programs being offered. I'd just like to make one or two comments regarding nursing education, because in the last while there has been significant concern regarding the apparent nursing shortage in Alberta. As I've expressed on other occasions, the nursing shortage has to some degree been cyclical.

But it certainly seems to have heightened in this province in the last while, as it has in all parts of Canada and throughout the United States. There is a particular crisis situation in the northwestern part of the United States, with regard to nursing education. I think one very interesting factor that a lot of people are commenting on is the fact that not as many young females — and, unfortunately, all too few males — are entering the nursing profession.

However, I believe statis­ tics will eventually come out indicating that a large number of young women want to enter our different programs across the province. This is a particularly inter­ esting trend, in view of the many, many opportunities open to young women today in different types of educa­ tional programs that in the past probably were not as common routes for women to be educated in. I would like to commend the department for the expansion of basic nursing education programs right across this province.

The fact that there are two generic baccalaureate programs in this province, at the University of Alberta and the University of Calgary, is very signifi­ cant. Both these universities offer what is known as a postbasic program. Of course the University of Leth­ bridge now has a postbasic program, which I think is very significant for the southern part of our province. Another very interesting trend is the expansion of the basic nurs­ ing education programs in our colleges.

I would just like to mention briefly the concern that with the expansion of these programs in the college system, I trust that ade­ quate qualified faculty will be available. One significant factor that has recently come to my attention — and I think it's very important for all members in the Assembly to share in this information, because it certainly is a source of pride to us in Alberta — is that more and more nurses are coming to Alberta. It is much easier to recruit nurses to Alberta than to other places in Canada. I think this is very significant, and there are probably two basic reasons for this.

Number one is that we are literally the first government in Canada, and elsewhere in the world, that has set up a nursing research fund. This will certainly attract many nurse educators and hopefully, through research, improve the quality of nursing care offered in our hospitals and in our community services. The second factor is the outstanding programs we have in Alberta. One example is through the University of Athabasca, but other educational institutions are also very concerned and are doing an excellent job on the Outreach program.

By that, I mean that there is an opportunity for staff nurses who work in hospitals or in the community and who have their registered nurse regis­ tration, to take educational courses toward their degree. As I mentioned, this has recently come to my attention, and I think it really should be highlighted. We should be very proud of the fact that because of this type of program, we will probably have as great a chance, if not greater, to recruit nurses from other parts of Canada or other parts of the world.

I would also like to commend the minister for, and certainly urge him to continue, the refresher courses for nurses. There is a lot of feedback with regard to how grateful are the nurses across the province who have been home raising their families and wish to get back into active nursing. This is one opportunity for them to upgrade their skills and knowledge, so they will be able to return to the work force. This, again, is a very important way of helping to overcome the nursing shortage.

Lastly, I would most sincerely like to commend the minister and his department for the outstanding scholar­ ship program available in Alberta. I realize this is a more appropriate compliment under the Alberta Heritage Sav­ ings Trust Fund. But I believe there is now a wide range of opportunity available for nurses: scholarships to im­ prove their basic education and to participate in research programs or institutes elsewhere in the world. This is a very significant factor. Many nurses in this province have had the opportunity.

For the benefit of all members, I would like to stress how important this is to women in the nursing profession. Many of them are single parents, and for many of them it is very, very difficult to further their education, particularly if they want to remain active in the work force at the same time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. DR. CARTER: Mr. Chairman, just about six brief comments through you to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. I realize that in a portion of the Speech from the Throne there was a very commenda­ ble record and listing of the successful apprenticeship and trades certification program.

In that whole area, I wonder if the minister would be good enough to make a few comments on the type of demand he sees for that program in '82 and into '83. Are we beginning to have some kind of significant impact upon the difficulty that is there, from the minister's department estimates — the

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 345 inability or challenge that is there with respect to the province trying to meet all the needs of trained personnel over the next 15 to 20 years? Again, I compliment the minister on what has already taken place, but are we going to see even more growth this year? I would also like to echo the congratulations offered by my colleague from Calgary North West with respect to the bursaries and scholarship program. Obviously this is having a commendable reaction on student enrolment in the province.

I'm certain we haven't yet seen the full impact of the value of the program and that it will take at least one or two years for the good word to be spread to all those attempting to further their education at institu­ tions of higher education. I add a word of thanks to the minister from the families involved as well as from the individual students. In earlier discussion with regard to the estimates, and perhaps in the introductory remarks made by the minis­ ter, I believe comment was made about film industry bursaries. I wonder if I could have a word of explanation to enlarge upon those three words.

I ask that the minister be good enough to share with us his projections of the profiles of enrolment patterns at the Alberta Vocational Centre in both Calgary and Edmon­ ton. Have we seen a significant shift now that a number of our new Canadians have impacted upon the system? In particular, I refer to Vietnamese refugees. As far as I know, we've had a significant number of them working through Alberta vocational centres. Do we have a shifting profile taking place there?

Have we been able to deal with what would be seen as the majority impact of new Canadians, in particular refugees who have come into this province? Or do we find that there is a continuing demand for that service, especially for refugees from other countries? It's my understanding that a tremendous number have come to Canada, taken up residence in the province of Ontario, and then all of a sudden have moved to the province in quite considerable numbers. If that information is correct, what kind of impact is that having on both Alberta vocational centres?

I wonder if the minister might also have time to give us a few comments on how he sees the established programs financing position of the federal government, and how that's going to impact on the minister's jurisdiction. Finally, one last bouquet to the minister, with respect to the Native Outreach program funding. This is my first chance to really commend the minister for the alacrity with which he and his department were able to move, in conjunction with the department of Native Affairs, with respect to coming into this vacuum when the federal government all of a sudden decided to withdraw.

Many persons in the native community in this province, espe­ cially those natives in urban areas, found this program to be of much beneficial use. Again, on their behalf I commend the minister for the appropriate action and the speed with which it was delivered. MR. WEISS: Mr. Chairman, I too appreciate the oppor­ tunity of expressing a few comments to the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. In particular, I would like to thank the department for the co-operation we received in the Lac La Biche-McMurray constituency in the last year.

Our constituents appreciate it, and we're grateful for the response we receive to the many inquiries. In a rural area, sometimes it's very difficult to just get on the phone or walk down to a department. You have to deal at arm's length. Sometimes these problems, while they might appear to be very minute, are very important to the individual. To have responsive department officials handle these matters is very important. The members for Calgary North West and Calgary McCall made reference to the scholarships from the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund. I compliment the minister and department.

It's very gratifying to be part of those presentations, to see the reaction and meet with the individuals. We've had several recipients in our communi­ ties, and I can assure you they worked very hard for it. We're very proud of them. We feel that that will contrib­ ute to make these citizens just that much more beneficial to our community as well. The stability and growth that's come within our community has been a real plus. These are the types of programs that make the ongoing benefits.

I think one item under under the Housing and Public Works estimates of expenditure deserves recognition at this time, because it's as a direct result of the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower. It's the $4.3 million that's been allocated for student housing in the commu­ nity of Lac La Biche. This expenditure will allow a 66 three-bedroom condominium unit to be developed for much needed student housing. The minister visited the community in the past, and he is aware we have some serious problems with regard to fire, which I'd like to comment on in a minute. But I'm hopeful, Mr.

Minister, that this is just the preliminary stage of development of what we would hope to be a new $45 million campus. Perhaps the minister could give our constituency a little more reassurance on the ongoing development of that particular facility. I would like to mention a recent news

article and make reference to some comments that have been expressed about fire safety, to make the minister aware not just of the concerns of the local citizens but of the students, and take strong objection to some of the remarks that have been made. "While residents have smoke detectors, there's no sprinkler system". I'm sure the minister is aware of that. The fire chief of the community, Mr. Sig Baglot, has indicated: "The fire ratings of the buildings in general are very poor". On visitation to the community last fall, the minister responded. I was pleased to have that opportunity to be with him.

He stated that the facilities are "obviously inadequate" and that the $45 million campus will "have top priority". We realize these are problems we hope we would overcome. I think reference has been made to the fact that perhaps a complete sprinkler system should be put in. I do not wish to say that we as a government and as people are not concerned for human lives. But I cer­ tainly could not support at this time a complete sprinkler system to be installed in the existing facility. I'm hoping we're looking more to the positive step of a complete new facility.

I would like to assure the students there, through the management staff and the directors, that our govern­ ment is aware of these concerns, and it's not being overlooked. I think sometimes we have to assess what is right with regard to timing as well. I would like to say that I take strong exception to remarks that were created, perhaps for media expectations. One remark went on to say: They expect us to behave like adults, but they treat us like kids. They go on to remark that: Dormitories are segregated and students risk dis­ missal if they bring alcohol or persons of the oppo­ site sex into their rooms.

They're under supervision 24 hours a day by deans who patrol the halls, taking down the names of those

346 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 seen coming home drunk. Mr. Minister, I'd like to assure you that the policy of the school was set out with direct assistance and input from previous students. I support those rules and regula­ tions. I certainly hope the minister would support them as well. I wouldn't want to see any laxity or change in those rules. I don't believe students should be bringing alcohol into their rooms, and I don't believe they should be involved in permissiveness, having uncontrolled supervi­ sion with regard to other members or drinking within the student facilities.

I think areas are open for those uses if that be the wish of the individuals. They are going to that facility to learn. They're only going to get out of it what they put into it. If we were to be that lax in our rules and permissive in our society, then I think those are the types of students we should not be assisting financially, in the learning field, and in the consideration of building facili­ ties to help them improve. In my remarks I have stressed the Lac La Biche region, but it's also very true and indicative of what is happen­ ing in McMurray, in particular in the city of Fort McMurray.

I believe the hon. Member for Grande Prairie made reference to the fine facility and theatre in Grande Prairie. We too, in the community of Fort McMurray, are very pleased to note that we have a 625-seat facility in the Keyano College campus. I would like all members of the Assembly to know that this isn't built just for the student body. This is a community facility, and we're very pleased to have the full use and utilization of that facility in the city of Fort McMurray, Mr. Minister. It certainly has been an asset to the community.

The college worked very hard, in close co-operation, in assisting in the bring­ ing in of cultural events. It's used for meetings. We've had our annual heartathon at the centre. It's just a plus. I encourage the minister and his department to look at this type of facility for future development areas contemplat­ ing such a facility. Earlier, I believe the hon. Member for Grande Prairie made reference to the nursing program. I'm very, very pleased that this year both the cities of Grande Prairie and Fort McMurray will be receiving some $7.2 million joint funding for the implementation of the nursing pro­ gram.

I also very much anticipate the day we'll have students who will have grown up within our city, will go on to complete their training and graduate, and then come back to nursing within our regional hospital in Fort McMurray. Of course the new facility is now open, and we hope to see and reap the benefits of this program being developed in Keyano College. I would like to encourage the minister and department to give approval to implementing the proposed MBA program in engineering, in conjunction with Athabasca University.

A number of concerned persons in our community, from both Syncrude and Suncor, and from the private sector, are working very hard to develop this program in conjunction with the University of Athabasca. This program will do a lot to build the stability we require in this community of Fort McMurray. We are some 300 miles north of the city of Edmonton. In the past, we've had what we call three kinds of people in our city: those coming, those going, and those in-between. As most members of the Assembly are aware, any develop­ ment, core, or nucleus of a community is only as good as the people within it.

Over the years, we have attempted to build on the stability, getting away from the transient type of population we've had in the past. In order to attract and maintain this stability, we must go forth and offer these programs, so that the citizens will not have to leave and come out and research these programs within the urban centres. We can offer them there, keep them there, build on the nucleus. They're the citizens of the tomorrows that we need. Their children are the citizens, and it's our most important resource. We talk about the heavy oil sands, the development of the Alsands, and what's happening. Mr.

Minister, I'm sure you're aware, as other members of this Assembly are, that the most important resource we have is our citizens. Through the development of programs such as this, we believe we can help keep our community grow­ ing. We too can be part of Alberta and part of this great country of ours, Canada. Let's keep it that way. Thank you very much. MR. HIEBERT: Mr. Chairman, I too would like to commend the minister with regard to the implementation of the Heritage Scholarship Fund. It certainly has been a very popular program with young people in my commu­ nity.

As a member from Edmonton, I would also like to commend the minister for the capital funds involved in the building of the business administration and commerce building at the University of Alberta. I have a number of questions related to specific ele­ ments. As there is a marked increase in the budget alloca­ tion under course development, I would like to know if the minister could indicate what courses are involved in that item.

Another area I would be interested in knowing about is how the various consortia are funded, since I do not notice any particular element related to the consortia, which seems to be an emerging and growing concept in the province. I was also looking at the estimates and wondering if Universiade '83, which is rapidly approaching, had any particular items related to it in terms of cost of the planning of this particular event. In looking at the univer­ sity operating estimates, I wonder if the minister could indicate what part of the increase is related to increased costs in maintaining the status quo, what

part is related to the growth in enrolments, since there was a marked increase in enrolments this past year, and what amount is related to the establishment of new programs. Another question I would like to ask the minister is whether the minister and officials of his department have given any consideration to commemorating the 75th birthday of the University of Alberta, which I understand will be coming up shortly. Lastly, under capital costs for public colleges, I would like to know whether Grant MacEwan college has made any requests for capital grants related to the possible extension of the Mill Woods campus?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] MR. BORSTAD: Mr. Chairman, representation has been made to me about upgrading courses which could be taught at colleges and accredited hospitals for RNAs, or registered nursing assistants, which would allow them to become registered nurses. I understand they're being taught in some of the other provinces in Canada. I wonder if the minister, along with his department, has had any consideration to reviewing this matter. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Chairman, when I addressed this subject the other day, I wanted to take a few minutes to go into some comments about university funding. I have read over the information submitted in the early part of

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 347 this month by the department: Some Facts About the Funding of Post-Secondary Institutions in Alberta. I sub­ sequently contacted people in the institutions, and per­ haps I might just deal with some of the concerns in a general sort of way. At the University of Calgary, we now have . . . MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm having a very dif­ ficult time hearing the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am too, and I'm not sure if it's the other conversations that are being held in the Assembly or the amplification on the hon. member's microphone. MR.

NOTLEY: I'm not speaking loudly enough, so I'll speak loudly. Fair enough. I don't mind speaking up, especially for the hon. Attorney General. I wouldn't want the Minister of Advanced Education and Manpower to miss a single word. [interjections] DR. BUCK: He hasn't missed anything yet. MR. NOTLEY: That's true. He has done a good job at Fairview College, so I'm quite happy with that. I must tell him that. [interjections] However, all the pleasant com­ ments aside, I have a few observations on the universities. First, let's take a look at the University of Calgary.

I am told we now have quotas in the faculties of engineer­ ing, law, medicine, nursing, management, environmental design, and social welfare. I'm advised that approximate­ ly 60 academic positions are presently unfilled and 21 limited-term positions are not going to be filled, regard­ less of the personal performances of some of those people who, I'm also given to understand, have done quite an excellent job. But their positions will not be filled again. Mr. Chairman, there is a feeling, certainly at the University of Calgary, that there will be a substantial increase in enrolment.

I understand there has been a similar increase at the University of Alberta. In the fig­ ures I've been given, Mr. Minister, at U of C we have engineering up 10 per cent; fine arts, 14 per cent; humani­ ties, 26 per cent; nursing, 13 per cent; science, 32 per cent; social science, 13 per cent: an overall increase of 18.3 per cent. The point I want to leave with the minister is that while there is going to be an increase in the estimates for funding at the U of A, U of C, and University of Leth- bridge, I think we have to ask what that means in terms of greater utilization of these three institutions.

I don't think there's any doubt that with the economic downturn, you're going to find more people going on — to take the slack time, if you like, when they're laid off work — to finish that degree, acquire additional training in a techno­ logical institute, or what have you. I guess we have to ask the minister what would appear to be fair and reasonable increases. I gather that the University of Calgary increase is 14.6 per cent, plus a $600,000 allotment for growth, and some money to bring the new engineering building into operation.

I ask the minister whether that increase is going to just meet the inflationary problems in the economy as a whole, and what adjustment there is going to be for added enrolment. With enrolments going up at all institutions, one would normally have to assume that increase. Mr. Chairman, in observation No. 8 of the minister's handout, the ratio of full-time students to full-time facul­ ty at the universities of Alberta, Calgary, and Lethbridge was 13.2:1 in 1974-75. The ratio has decreased to 11.9:1 in 1980-81. I have no doubt that that's correct.

If these figures I've been given by the university are accurate, I ask the minister whether the ratio this year would be very close to that 13.2:1, whether there has been an increase in the number of students and not an increase in staff. Perhaps the information given in paragraph 8 may not be accurate in terms of the present situation at the university. Mr. Chairman, we can get into all kinds of compara­ tive statistics on how much is spent on postsecondary education. There are different ways of judging that. But I want to deal more with some specifics.

I am advised that several years ago money was made available to the University of Alberta for planning renovations to the arts building and the agriculture building, both of which are seriously inadequate. This budget does not contain any funds for upgrading either building. As far as the operat­ ing side of the ledger goes, it's my understanding that the U of A is going to have to cut 10 academic positions this year. In the face of growing enrolment, that leads me to some concern about whether we are maintaining the qua­ lity of our programming.

I also contacted the Federation of Alberta Students, and I think it's appropriate that this information be relayed to members. They advise me of these points, and I would like the minister to comment on them. At the U of A, 11 academic positions have been cut from the education faculty in the last two years. In introductory engineering, the average class size is now 400 students; 33 per cent of qualified applicants for engineering were turned away in 1980-81, yet we have to import engineers to the province. The faculty of medicine has the highest student/professor ratio of any medical school in Canada.

Twelve academic positions have been lost in the faculty of science over the last three years. Lab time for computing science students has been reduced from three hours per week to one hour per week, due to increased enrolment and lack of staff in terminal rooms. The minister can well respond that that's up to the board of governors. But as this committee considers the estimates for the Department of Advanced Education and Manpower, I think the point has to be made that if cuts are required in terms of programs as a consequence of (

a) inflation, which the universities can't do anything about, and (

b) enrolment, which is also going to be a natural product of the current economic slowdown, then it seems to me we have to look at whether this budget is adequate. I want to make one observation about student financ­ ing at this point, and one additional observation about salaries and remuneration for people working in universi­ ties. We have a 17.6 per cent increase in grants, including loan remissions. Mr. Chairman, I put it to the minister that as I look at remissions, there's going to be an increase of only $200,000 over last year. I find that intri­ guing.

It occurs to me that there would be a greater demand on the program than that. Perhaps in his con­ cluding comments, the minister could summarize the rea­ sons for what would appear to be about a 4 per cent increase in remissions. I don't pretend to have the infor­ mation, but I found that rather puzzling. It would seem to me that more students would be taking advantage of the earned remissions program. There must be some fac­ tual data on which to base that $200,000, and I would like it. Mr. Chairman, the handout the minister provided says that salaries of university professors compare favorably

348 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 to other parts of the country. I don't think there's much doubt about that. In No. 7, the average faculty salaries for all academic ranks for Alberta universities in 1981 are among the highest in Canadian universities. I guess the problem — and this is where we face it, in any decision we make in this Legislature. It's one thing to compare salaries in Alberta with salaries in other universities in the country. But I think one has to judge the salaries in comparison with the private sector, particularly in fields where there is competition from the private sector.

I have the salary levels for the University of Calgary and the University of Alberta. For assistant and associate professors, where you have a minimum and a maximum, in certain areas they are not competitive. Let's take geophysics, for example. One of the major oil companies had an average increase this year in their employee sa­ laries and benefits of 18.3 per cent.

So I'm not surprised that the University of Calgary has lost three or four professors in geophysics and geology, because an assist­ ant professor at the University of Calgary would be earning between just over $25,000 to just under $40,000 and an associate professor from $35,000 to approximately $45,000. The going rate in the private sector for geophysi- cists and geologists is that and then some.

I seems to me that what we've found, and certainly what the staff asso­ ciations have brought to my attention — certainly in Edmonton, but even more so at the University of Calgary — is a feeling that while the level of remuneration may be competitive with a teaching load in New Brunswick, and may be more competitive than a teaching load in Nova Scotia or Saskatchewan, it is not competitive with the private sector 50 blocks away in downtown Calgary. That is the concern that these people are raising. Of course it's a concern we have to look at in being fair to people who are employed in the public sector. Mr.

Chairman, those are the comments I'd like to put, some in the form of observations but most in the form of questions, and would welcome response from the minister when he summarizes his remarks. MR. D. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I want to rise and say briefly how much I appreciate the work the hon. minister has done in this department. I personally feel that since the minister has taken office, the postsecondary educational system has moved along very well and has maintained a level of funding which can keep it operating despite the significant federal cuts being made.

Today I particularly want to thank the hon. minister for moving ahead with the Mount Royal College expan­ sion. I've stood in my place the last number of years at this time, during budget discussions, and have questioned the minister as to why we hadn't moved ahead with that allocation. I'm very gratified to see that that will happen. I think it's a very necessary move. The college is quite overcrowded at this point in time. It's now looking after many of the needs of Calgarians, and other people in the province, to retrain as well as to train initially.

It's moving ahead in a very significant way with regard to development of community-oriented programs. This ap­ proval of the initial stages of the expansion will assist Mount Royal College in particular, and Calgary in gen­ eral, to a very great extent in the near future, and look forward to providing many of the manpower needs of the province in years to come. I'd also like to congratulate the minister on the Herit­ age Scholarship Fund. In my constituency, it's been ex­ tremely well received. I've been honored to give out quite a number of those certificates over the last number of months.

I think they're going to improve in a very signifi­ cant way the possibility of further education for some of our better students. Mr. Chairman, with those comments, again I'd like to congratulate the minister on a successful number of pro­ grams and a very efficient operation of the Department of Advanced Education and Manpower. MR. KOWALSKI: Mr. Chairman, a couple of brief questions to the minister, but first of all a comment with respect to the Alberta Heritage Trust Fund scholarships. I do have a question with respect to it.

It's a question of administration followed in evaluating marks that are deemed eligible under the Rutherford scholarship system. It's my understanding that currently those marks used in determining eligibility for the scholarship are essentially based on those marks that our young people attain in high school. However, some students wish to appeal the mark and can write an examination that's put forward by Alberta Education.

It's been brought to my attention this week, and I would like clarification from the minister, that in fact the marks attained on the appeal examina­ tions are not used in the component make-up of the determining marks that go in for eligibility under the Rutherford scholarships. It's my understanding that the administrators associated with the scholarship program have in fact ruled that the appeal marks will not be used.

My point in all of this is that I believe very strongly that the appeal marks should be used and that all our young people should have an opportunity in addition to writing the final examination in the high school in which they are registered, if there are extenuating circumstances. In a couple of seconds, I'm going to give one example where our young people do have at least one opportunity for appeal to improve their mark standing, and the usage of the marks through the exams provided by Alberta Education be considered. The example I want to give is current.

It's my under­ standing that in at least one high school in the province of Alberta — a rather large high school in my constitu­ ency — in the semester examinations held at the end of January, the teachers in one of the departments apparent­ ly did not provide any honors marks in one grade 12 subject. Of course the students in all the other grade 12 subjects were marked, and a number of them did receive high honors marks. But for reasons unknown to me, in one particular subject area no honors marks were given. These students were rather concerned about it, as were their parents and the school administration.

As teachers do have considerable flexibility in how they wish to determine the range of marks in their particular class­ room, their students found that they did not have an opportunity to obtain honors marks, even though they had attained honors marks in a number of other subjects. They then appealed to Alberta Education to write the appeal exams through the system currently in existence, but were informed that the appeal exam marks would not be considered for eligibility under the heritage trust fund scholarships for the Rutherford fund.

I'd like the clarifi­ cation of the minister if that's his understanding of the system. If it is, I would appeal to him to take whatever measures there are to allow our young people to have an opportunity to at least write the appeal examination and have that mark considered as part of the global sum of marks used in evaluating eligibility for the Rutherford scholarships. The second point also deals with the response of the students, in this case the Students Finance Board. It deals

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 349 with a rather limited number of young people in our high schools, but a sad case: abandoned children. Unfortunate­ ly in this province, as in all parts of North America, we have this new phenomenon of a very small number of parents simply moving away and abandoning their chil­ dren. While the numbers are not very high, I have at least two well identified cases of parents in the constituency I represent simply packing up and moving away.

In one case, two parents moved to Scotland, where the parents are involved in the oil and gas industry, and have left at least one child I know of, a 17-year-old young person, who wants to be in school and is remaining in school. That person has appealed to the Students Finance Board for some degree of assistance to allow him to continue his high school education. A second example is a young lady, also age 17, who wants to continue high school. A broken family: the parents simply told her that she's on her own at age 17. If she chooses to go to school, she'll have to make her own way in the world.

In the case of this very small number of people, a very sad situation, I would ask that the minister ask his administrators in the Students Finance Board to evaluate the magnitude of this unfortunate dilemma and to be in a position to use the best of their good offices to ensure that our young people who fall into that category have an opportunity to continue their high school. Thank you. MR. MACK: Mr. Chairman, I shall be brief. I would like to make a couple of observations, and possibly ask a couple of questions of the minister. One observation re­ lates to the current policies with regard to student loans.

I'm particularly thinking of a single parent raising two youngsters and attempting to complete her education by taking her final year degree course in the evenings, on a part-time basis, not as a full-time student. One of the difficulties that constituent is having is that as far as loans are concerned, there are certain restrictions based on the number of courses that particular student is taking. More importantly, if a loan were generated the difficulty is repayment upon completion of that course, with two youngsters at home, one himself planning to enter university.

Could there be some identifiable factor as to the remission of a loan at some given point, so an individual would be able to at least appreciate what he would actually have to repay and a single parent could plan for the youngster entering university, who in this particular instance would also have to take out a loan in the first year and perhaps in ensuing years? I would also like to echo my comments to the minister in perhaps a somewhat different way. When I have had occasion to contact his office, I've received immediate response and, in most cases, a satisfactory solution.

That's greatly appreciated, particularly from a ministry that has many demands on it. I would like to comment on the manner in which the minister is responding to the department and the many needs and challenging times we're facing. Certainly that has been well articulated, and I shall not be repetitive in the area.

In the area of the health care delivery system as it pertains to nursing staff and the monitoring systems the minister would have in his department to determine in the next two or three years the number of trained profes­ sionals in the field, both in those availing themselves of the degree courses being offered and whether he envisages that these particular degree courses will be expanded, does the department have a means of communicating to the professional registered nurses in the field that in fact these courses are available?

Is this information directed through the professional arm, the ARN, or is it possible to actually provide that information on a more compre­ hensive basis? My other question to the minister, Mr. Chairman, is in the area of the faculty of business administration and commerce. Because of the make-up of the industrial sec­ tor of our province, new businesses coming in, and a demand in the area for professionals in the field, obvious­ ly students are going into the programs in the postsec- ondary institutions.

It is my understanding that there is a distinct problem insofar as attracting instructors at the university level because of the lack of a doctoral degree program at the university itself. Is the minister planning on designating funds so the university could establish a doctoral program in that particular faculty, to assist the training of young people within the province rather than those who wish to take a doctoral degree in commerce and business administration having to leave the province in order to attain that type of degree? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. COOK: Mr. Chairman, I'll be quite brief.

I have a great deal of respect for the minister and his department. I think he's doing an amazing job. When you look at what he started with — for example, in capital operating budgets — he's certainly performed well and has received a great deal of support from the Executive Council priori­ ties committee. I do have some concerns though. Maybe I should just touch on a few of them. Enrolments at our universities are starting to rise fairly dramatically. For example, this year we saw a very large increase in students wanting to take computing science.

In California and some of the western states, we've seen enrolments increasing at a rate of almost 50 per cent over the previous year. If that is any kind of trend in North America, and California has been something of a pace setter in the past, we may see a lot of kids who in years past have gone to work and delayed their advanced education, return to school at the age of 20 or 22 and find that space is at a premium and classrooms are already very cramped.

As I understand it, in some of the classes in sociology and basic science programs for freshmen at the University of Alberta, students were sitting in the aisles. There wasn't enough space or staff available for them. I'd like to compare the need for developing a research and development program at our universities to the minor hockey program, perhaps. In order to have some Wayne Gretzkys, I think we need a good junior hockey program in this province. I think of the University of Alberta, University of Calgary, or University of Leth­ bridge providing that base level of opportunity for unde- rgrads.

In order to get the kinds of graduate students and researchers available to us in this province to build that critical mass for a technical society to feed off, we need to pay attention to the quality of education, especially in the physical sciences, natural sciences, and engineering. I'm a little concerned that we don't have that junior hockey program in good shape to perform. We aren't going to find we're developing the Wayne Gretzkys that we might in the sciences and technologies. In part, that relates to the salary levels offered.

For example, I know that a few engineering professors at the University of Alberta left last year because opportunities in the private sector were available and they could in­

350 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 crease their earnings by 30, 40, 50 per cent just by leaving the university. I agree that there should be a differential between the universities and the private sector. They shouldn't necessarily expect to get the same salary. But surely a salary differential of as much as 50 per cent isn't really what this government is talking about in providing incentives for the private sector. I hope we could do more. The minister has already done a lot in providing enhanced funding for the professional faculties, and I compliment him for that.

But there has to be a way for us to provide extra funding to those professional schools where the private sector is luring away the very people who are providing the students who are going to be needed in those professions in a very few years. With those concerns, I think it's also fair to note that in the last few years the minister has developed a new trade school at Stony Plain. I think that's terrific, although I have one small concern. Some of my constituents in northeast Edmonton are going to have to travel a very long distance to Stony Plain. MR. KOWALSKI: Oh come on. Ten miles is no big deal. MR.

COOK: The hon. Member for Barrhead might be interested in knowing that if you travel by bus, it can take as much as an hour or an hour and a half to get to Stony Plain, and an hour and a half back. MR. KOWALSKI: You can come in from Barrhead in an hour and a half. MR. COOK: That's a three hour trip. Not all Edmon- tonians have cars. They're not as wealthy as the people from Barrhead. They rely on the public transit system. AN HON. MEMBER: It's not too good these days. MR. COOK: The public transit system isn't functioning right now in Edmonton. But when it does, it's not bad. The expansion at NAIT is very welcome.

There have been some improvements there. I think the minister de­ serves to be commended. The apprenticeship program in this province is incredible. I've been talking to some young people who worked on my recent nomination campaign. They're very pleased with the opportunities available to them, and I think the minister deserves a good deal of credit for that. Last year, I had the opportunity to mail out a lot of Heritage Savings Trust Fund scholarships, the Ruther­ ford scholarship certificates. I understand that in one of my high schools, we cleaned up. Something like $40,000 in scholarships were delivered.

It's a pretty incredible incentive for young people to do well and perform. I think it goes back to an earlier comment I made about the need to develop that junior hockey program equiva­ lent in Advanced Education. Providing incentives and motivation for kids to do well and work hard is a key to the long-term future of this province if we're going to build that high tech society. I'd like to close with two observations. The business school at the University of Alberta is a very welcome addition. Mr.

Minister, the first thing I did when I got the budget speech and the package of documents on budget night was flip through the budget and race through to see if something was in there for the business school at the University of Alberta. I was grinning when I saw it, and the minister deserves a lot of credit for that. Finally, the endowment fund for the '80s has been a real success. At the University of Calgary, I know there are some major improvements in the business area, for example. I think that's going to leave a real legacy.

I'd like to see the University of Alberta and the University of Lethbridge a little more aggressive in pursuing that. There's a real opportunity there to involve the private sector. I think the minister did a fine job when he convinced his cabinet colleagues on the priorities commit­ tee to provide additional funding for that. I have one more small concern. I understand that a master contract is being developed for contract research at the three major universities in Alberta.

I'm a little concerned that the proposal from the department, as I understand it, suggests that the right to publish results would not be vested with the universities of Alberta, Calgary, or Lethbridge. Theoretically contract research done at the universities, using public facilities like li­ braries and labs, would be the property of either the Crown or the agency that asked for the contract in the first place.

I really think that at public institutions like the three major universities in Alberta, the public has the right, and I think it's part of the mission of the universi­ ties to provide information on a world basis, to be part of the upward march of humanity, if you like, and to make a contribution to the world. If we have research done behind closed doors, then closeted and secreted away, I don't think we're making a contribution to that world mission. I'm a little concerned about that. Secondly, on the same topic, incentives should be pro­ vided for researchers if we're a private enterprise govern­ ment.

We should carry that over to the University of Alberta or University of Calgary research environment and provide incentives for the researcher, in a sense a piece of the action. If a discovery is made, I think the individual researcher or the research team should receive a percentage of the action, so that they hustle a little more, work a little harder, and are a little more innova­ tive. I'd like to see that feature in the master contract I understand is being developed for contract research at Alberta universities. On balance, Mr. Minister and Mr.

Chairman, I am amazed at the progress we're making in this area. I think the minister deserves a lot of credit, and I'm really pleased to be able to offer a few words of support and encouragement, and perhaps also a few little prods. MR. PAHL: Mr. Chairman, I just want to rise in my place and reinforce one point in the remarks of the hon. Member for Edmonton Glengarry with respect to the budget for the building program of the University of Alberta. I think the amount is substantial and certainly meets the first priority need; that is, a business adminis­ tration and commerce building.

I also want to compliment the minister and his depart­ ment for the successes that I feel Grant MacEwan Community College — I'll speak particularly to the Mill Woods campus. It is indeed becoming a community col­ lege, and the community relates very well to it. It serves that community that is fairly well defined within the Edmonton urban area. The final point I'd like to make — and perhaps it's more a comment than a request for a response — is that I feel we are developing within the province some very good, and perhaps even great, institutions in the ad­ vanced education system.

I state the case that not only should we seek to be fair among institutions on the one hand — and I guess that implies a per capita grant — but I think we should also recognize their differences and

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 351 strengths, and be prepared to build on those strengths in a manner appropriate to each institution. Thank you. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. minister like to conclude? MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to re­ spond, and I hope I can do so briefly. However, several members have asked specific questions, and I propose to try to respond to them. Having tried to review in my mind how to respond, I think I'm going to have to do it to each member's questions; otherwise it would be very difficult to deal with this. First of all, dealing with the questions raised by the hon.

Member for Drayton Valley, who asked me for provision of a table comparing tuition fees in 1931,1951, 1971, and 1981, I refer the hon. member to Table 5, which was made available to all members of the Assem­ bly a short while ago, entitled Some Facts About the Funding of Post-Secondary Institutions in Alberta. It deals with the period from 1931 to 1954, showing the proportion tuition bears to the total revenues of the insti­ tutions on a Canada-wide basis and, subsequently, on a western provinces basis. I can also advise members of the Assembly that that goes to '54.

In 1971 the proportion was 12.2 per cent, and we are now in the position where it has fallen slightly below 10 per cent. So I think that table — which I won't repeat, because it has been made availa­ ble to all members — and the information I've given should answer that question. The question of encouraging more involvement of the Apprenticeship Board in providing training in co­ operation with consortia is important. I am aware that officials of the branch have met with the regional advi­ sory committees to address the matter, and the proposal is acceptable in principle.

Implementation depends, of course, on the number of students who are available. Quite frankly, we hope that the apprenticeship branch will be able to work out more delivery of apprenticeship programs through consortia. As the consortia grow and become better known, the chances of more programming in that area will be made available. The MLA for Vermilion-Viking asked as to funding of new programs at Lakeland and the concern that those be made available in the outlying areas. I assume he means outlying from the town of Vermilion.

Of course we all recognize the mandate of Lakeland College to extend into the whole Lakeland area, and perhaps other communities should not be referred to as outlying. I could just indicate that Lakeland College will receive operating grants for the fiscal year as shown in the estimates, as well as for new program initiatives. If I could have the attention of the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview on this topic, I'd like to deal with a question that he raised as well. It relates to the amount shown in the element books with respect to what each institution will receive in terms of their growth.

It has been pointed out that when one looks at the element books, there appears to be relatively minor increases for some institutions. Using Lakeland College as an example, I'd like to take this time to explain the system by which we develop the total budget which will be received. In 1981-82, Lakeland College received an operating grant letter which provided just over $6 million. During the course of the year, we made a base adjustment of $24,000. We made some conditional grants of $95,000 for new programming, $330,007 for new course development funding, and then arrived at a 1981-82 base of $6.5 million.

On top of that, Mr. Chairman — and this applies to all the colleges — we have added a 14.6 per cent price adjustment. That price adjustment is the percentage used throughout the system, and includes factors for inflation, growth, and increased costs encountered with respect to such things as utilities and acquisition of materials. We recognize that in some cases, acquisition of materials has to come from outside Canada, and their costs have risen. Unfortunately too, the federal government is no longer permitting a deduction of some import charges formerly exempted, but I won't go into that.

If there is a commu­ nity consortia administered through a college, that amount is then added to the college's budget. In the case of Lakeland, it was not. We then add second-year costs of new programming. In the case of Lakeland, there was $51,100. Then we added an enrolment growth item for the current year. In the whole colleges system, the enrolment growth amount was at $1,023,000. That added another $69,200 to the Lakeland budget. Their total budget is $7,550,000, repre­ senting a 25.2 per cent increase over their revised 1981-82 base.

So in addition to the base we arrive at for the previous year, we add the price adjustment which goes to each institution on its base, plus the second year costs, enrol­ ment costs, whether enrolment increases are shown, and new space going on stream if there is any — in the case of Lakeland, there was not — and we arrive at our total. Therefore in the community colleges system, the per­ centage increases in their total budget end up ranging — the lowest is 17.7 per cent at Mount Royal College. The reason is that Mount Royal College has reached its capacity for enrolment growth and new program devel­ opment.

They have reached that stage, and that's one of the reasons we are now in the position of moving to provide their second phase. In fact the budgets of all institutions have increased well beyond the 14.6 per cent basic price adjustment. I know it's difficult to get that from the element book, Mr. Chairman, but you have to look at the other elements on the same page. For example, if one looks at page 6 in the element books, you will observe reference no. 2.1.2, new course development. The '82-83 estimates are $21,307,000, compared to under half a million dollars last year.

That $21 million has to be split among the institu­ tions, and that's how we arrive at our final allocation. I hope that answers that question for hon. members, in­ cluding the hon. members for Vermilion-Viking and Spirit River-Fairview. However, I should go beyond that to answer another aspect of the question from the hon. Member for Vermilion-Viking, and it relates to whether or not the funds will be utilized in communities other than Vermil­ ion served by Lakeland College. In that respect, responsi­ bility rests with the board of governors to determine how those funds will be located. I gather that the hon.

Member for Spirit River- Fairview has slipped out of the House for a few moments, so I would like to hold comments on tuition fees until later. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He's indicated to the Chair that he will not be in attendance, so maybe the minister would just like to carry on. He can then read it in Hansard.

352 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 MR. HORSMAN: Then I shall deal with the question of tuition fees. Hon. members are aware that during the past year I have been consulting with members of boards of governors, student organizations, and people interested in postsecondary education with regard to alternative meth­ ods of setting tuition fees at Alberta advanced education institutions. First of all, I suggested to a meeting of all student council presidents from across the province that there are seven different ways of doing so.

I won't go through them all now, but I will say that in consultation with my colleagues in cabinet committee and in the education committee caucus, I hope we are very close to arriving at a recommendation to cabinet, the caucus, and this Assembly with respect to a long-term tuition fee policy. I would like to advise members of the Assembly of something very, very interesting which took place at the University of Calgary within the last week.

They held their student council elections at the University of Cal­ gary, and at the same time conducted two plebiscites, the first of which was whether or not the students at the University of Calgary wished to join the Canadian Fe­ deration of Students. I gather that plebiscite was de­ feated. Interestingly enough, they held another tuition fee plebiscite in which they asked the students themselves these questions: Over the next five years at the University of Calgary, tuition fees should:

a) be abolished

b) not be increased

c) be indexed to increase according to increase in student wages

d) be indexed to increase proportionately with the University's operating budget

e) be increased on an ad hoc basis I should also add that the same plebiscite was con­ ducted in 1980, the same questions asked of the students and, in the case of the University of Calgary, the results were as follows: 7.28 per cent of students voting suggested that tuition fees should be abolished. The hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview indicated that we should be moving toward abolition of tuition fees. Yet this year the results of this plebiscite show there is very limited support for that notion. In 1980, the results were somewhat high­ er, 7.94 per cent.

But in fact less than 8 per cent of the students who voted in the plebiscite on this issue voted to abolish tuition fees at the University of Calgary; 30.6 per cent voted that tuition fees should not be increased, as opposed to 21.6 per cent two years ago; 27.6 per cent voted to index tuition fees to increases according to increases in student wages, compared to 36.5 per cent two years ago; 28.7 per cent voted to have indexing, to in­ crease proportionately with the university's operating budget, as opposed to 29.8 per cent two years ago; and 5.69 per cent, as compared to 4.07 per cent, voted to have them increased on an ad hoc basis.

DR. BUCK: Mr. Minister, how large was the sampling? MR. HORSMAN: The number of students who voted in the plebiscite this year was 22,068, and two years ago, 25,083, approximately 20 to 21 per cent of the student enrolment. But after all, those are the ones who elect and who express their opinions. I thought it was a fair sample.

In looking at these figures — and I'll refer to this year's figures only because they are not as complimentary, I guess, to the concept of raising tuition fees — 62 per cent of the students who voted in that plebiscite voted to increase tuition fees in one way or another, recognizing and confirming that our government's position is well accepted, even within the student community: that there be tuition fees, and that they be raised by a reasonable amount to recognize students' own responsibilities toward their education.

Several questions were asked regarding Grande Prairie Regional College, both by the Member for Spirit River- Fairview and the Member for Grande Prairie. I think I've dealt with the question of the Grande Prairie Regional College net per cent increase over the forecast [being] lower than the comparison to the increase of other esti­ mates. I can tell hon. members that the final percentage increase for Grande Prairie College is 24.9 per cent, taking into consideration their base adjustment, enrol­ ment growth, and new space going on stream. So they have a very substantial increase this year.

With regard to the question by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview on the subject of the completion date of the student residence, hon. members will be aware that the budget — if my memory doesn't escape me — two years ago provided the funding for that particular college. Unfortunately, through difficulties experienced between the board and the city of Grande Prairie with regard to planning and the process of development of the college, the residences have not been built. However, the funds were provided.

They are currently being held in the government investment fund and are available to Grande Prairie Regional College as required. On a related matter, I think it's useful for all members to be aware that it is our policy not to provide funds for furnishings and equipment for residences. Institutions purchase furnishings and equipment and recover the cost from residence fees. I want to point out to hon. members of this Assembly what has taken place with regard to the overall subject of student residences during the past three years since I have had the honor to hold this portfolio.

The principle was that residences would be self- supporting or self-sustaining. In other words, if they were to be built, the institution would borrow the money for the construction, furnishings, and fixtures of those build­ ings and then recover the costs of the construction, fur­ nishings, and equipment by way of rentals from students. Mr. Chairman, when we developed the regional expan­ sion plan for the colleges system, for the first time, our government agreed to accept 100 per cent of the capital cost of the construction of student residences.

Therefore we have made a very significant contribution to keeping student costs low. At the same time, because they have larger residences, we still require the universities to pay only half the capital costs, or to borrow half the capital costs and have those costs amortized through to the students by way of their monthly rentals. We have made a very significant step forward, but we still require the institutions to pay for the furnishings and equipment and have those costs met through the residence fees. I hope hon. members will appreciate what a very significant step forward we have taken in that respect.

With regard to the question raised by the hon. Member for Grande Prairie with respect to operating funds for the auditorium, no specific funds had been made available to any college. Those were part of the global operating grants. The only time that we added a cost — and I guess this is causing concern among some colleges — was when Keyano College went on stream. At that time, it was added basically as new programming funding. But in effect Medicine Hat College receives no auditorium oper­

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 353 ational cost separate from it's global budget, nor do the University of Lethbridge or Grande Prairie Regional Col­ lege. So Grande Prairie Regional College is certainly not being discriminated against in any way. The Member for Spirit River-Fairview asked why the percentage increase for Alberta vocational centres, as it appears in the element book, is so small. There are two reasons. The 1982-83 estimates do not contain the '82-83 salary settlements to which these institutions will be en­ titled when settlements occur during '82-83.

The service elements which appear in each vote have not yet been allocated to the various institutions. The same principle applies to the next question asked by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview, as to why the percentage in­ creases at NAIT and SAIT appear to be slight. I think that deals with the questions raised the other day. Now I think I have to take a look at the questions raised during the course of this morning. I thank hon. members for their compliments. I won't refer to those; I'll just accept them. I'm sure my departmental officials will do the same.

I hope it doesn't encourage them to become complacent. It would be very, very unfortunate indeed to think that all the work that has yet to be done in Advanced Education and Manpower has been done; it hasn't. I encourage my departmental officials to be vigilant. The nursing questions raised by the hon. Member for Calgary North West are by and large being dealt with, I believe, through the Nursing Manpower Education and Implementation Committee. I gave the hon. member an extensive report on the progress of that committee. They are well within the terms of their two-year mandate.

There have already been a number of questions relating to that during the course of the session. With regard to the questions on apprenticeship demand in '82-83, raised by the hon. Member for Calgary Milli- can, as of January 31, 1982, there are a total of 28,449 registered apprentices. We know we have some problems with respect to being able to accommodate apprentices within the educational system. That is one reason we are in the process of constructing a new institute to be located at Stony Plain and, furthermore, why we are expanding into the trades in the colleges system.

When we have the new institute on stream at Stony Plain, we will be able to accomodate up to 1,300 full-time students. One has to realize that if those are all trades­ people, you multiply that number by four in order to know how many students can be accommodated, because apprentices are in those institutions for only a quarter of the time. So that is an important aspect to keep in mind. Unfortunately, at the present time approximately 6 per cent of the apprentices are not able to obtain their train­ ing, but we will be able to overcome a good deal of that with this expansion I referred to.

With respect to another specific question with regard to the film development bursaries, that matter arose from a request we received to provide assistance for further train­ ing at formal institutions and to subsidize approved can­ didates for attendance at short professional development courses, seminars, et cetera. I should point out that with the development of the Alberta Motion Picture Devel­ opment Corporation, we as a government are trying to encourage motion pictures within this province. We're trying to encourage opportunities for Albertans to partic­ ipate in that particularly exciting industry.

So we are making available grants of $13,000 to up to two candi­ dates per academic year. The accepted candidates will have to be of a calibre considered sufficient to have full­ time training during the course of one year. We are going to make available grants of not more than $1,000 each to up to 15 candidates per year, to attend short courses and seminars in order to update their grades and skills. With respect to the Alberta vocational centres in Cal­ gary and Edmonton, there has been some shift in enrol­ ments as to the nature of people taking English as a second language, but we expect a continuing demand.

Other refugees are coming to Alberta. Some are coming from Poland. We expect that to be a continuing feature of our society, and we believe the vocational centres must fill that need. I believe they are doing so very effectively, and the program is growing very rapidly. I think teachers in that program need special commendation, because they are very dedicated indeed. On the subject of established programs financing raised by the hon. Member for Calgary Millican, I commented on that in the question period.

I won't repeat what I said in my opening remarks except to reaffirm our commit­ ment not to pass through those actual cutbacks that have occurred, but to repeat again that it is the firm position of this government, as confirmed by the Council of Minis­ ters of Education for Canada, the first provincial minis­ ters, and the financial ministers of the provinces, that the whole concept of established programs financing must be negotiated as a package, not separated into the elements of advanced education and others involved.

I noted the comments of the Member for Lac La Biche-McMurray with respect to the vocational centre at Lac La Biche. I can assure him that last evening when I spoke to the Spectrum '82 conference on adult education and mentioned the allocations being made in this year's budget, I confirmed to them, as confirmed in the budget and my opening remarks, that the $4.35 million being provided in this fiscal year is only the start. Indeed there is a firm commitment to a new campus and new student housing replacing the inadequate facilities built many years ago by the federal government.

The total price will be $45 million. A very significant new institution. With respect to rules of conduct within the institution, those are surely matters of responsibility for the adminis­ tration to get involved in, not for me as minister. That is really something that must be done internally, and I leave that to the administration to work out with the student body. I thank the member for his compliments about Keyano theatre. I recognize his interest in having decen­ tralization of our programs continued, and I thank him for those remarks.

With respect to the Member for Edmonton Gold Bar, I believe he asked what new courses are being developed at the institutions. With due respect, Mr. Chairman, I think that would require a very considerable length of time, because they are allocated within each institution. But as an example, may I cite the University of Alberta with respect to new program funding by way of conditional grants and second-year costs.

I think it's important to make note of those: co-operative education in engineer­ ing, first and second year costs combined, almost $700,000; masters in public administration, $330,000; East Asian studies, $236,000; masters of education out­ reach, $203,000; computer engineering, $379,000; teach­ ing of hearing impaired, $78,000; teaching of handi­ capped, $87,800. I could go through each institution one by one, but I don't think that was what the hon. member had in mind.

In addition to the additional new programming costs I mentioned with regard to the university, we are making available for the third year in a row, professional faculties

354 ALBERTA HANSARD March 26, 1982 enhancement grants. In the case of the University of Alberta, we think an additional $750,000 will be allocated this way: business administration and commerce, approx­ imately $150,000; rehabilitation medicine, $325,000 — I hope the hon. Member for Clover Bar is listening to this — and dentistry, $275,000. DR. BUCK: Just about lost our accreditation. MR. HORSMAN: The accreditation of that faculty was never in doubt, certainly since the hon. Member for Clover Bar joined the faculty. That was a very important new addition. DR. BUCK: They needed money, not brains. MR.

HORSMAN: The hon. Member for Gold Bar asked a question with respect to consortia funding. I think I indicated in part, in answer to an earlier question, that consortia funding is made available through the individu­ al institutions: Fairview College, Grant MacEwan, Leth­ bridge, Olds, and through vocational centres and techni­ cal institutions. I can only count four here, and I know we have six going. But that's how that funding is made available. Of course, consortia are proceeding very rapidly. Another specific question raised was with respect to Universiade '83.

The operating costs of that program flow through the Department of Recreation and Parks. With respect to the University of Alberta, $16.01 million is being made available for the field house and housing construction which is under way at the present time. As part of our commitment to the University of Alberta in the current fiscal year, there are also funds relating to upgrading the utility system. The balance of funds re­ quired to complete Universiade '83 are included in this year's budget. Since the question was raised by the hon. Member for Clover Bar and by the hon.

Member for Spirit River- Fairview, perhaps I could deal with operating costs, en­ rolments, new programs, et cetera, with respect to univer­ sities. Let me just run through the same process with respect to universities as I have with colleges. We start with the base for the University of Alberta. The grant letter base last year was $153,756,500.

We added some money to the University of Alberta last year, and I think it would be useful to put this on the record: a grant of $250,000 for the public administration consortium, a grant of $278,300 for library services, and a grant of $155,000 for program overhead costs. That changed the base considerably, so the base that I mentioned came to $154,666,200. We added the price increase of 14.6 per cent. The element of enrolment growth has been raised by several members, so I hope I won't have to repeat it when I get to that area.

We have recognized enrolment growth in the universities and the Banff Centre this year with an additional grant of $1,677,000. Of that, the University of Alberta received an additional $725,300. The basis we proceeded on was a per capita head in growth numbers. For the professional faculty enhancement grants, which I've already mentioned, we added $750,000; for second- year costs, we added $568,000; for operating costs for part of the year for the field house, $58,000; for a total budget provided to the University of Alberta this year of $179,348,900, a total increase of 16 per cent. Mr.

Chair­ man, I hope hon. members appreciate the system by which we allocate various elements within the budget and make them available to the institutions. A specific question was raised with respect to com­ memorating the 75th anniversary of the University of Alberta. That has not been provided for in this budget. I have had some conversations on that subject with the chancellor. I'm not certain what might be of particular interest to that institution. That would have to be a matter for further consideration.

It is certainly a signifi­ cant date in the history of advanced education, and we hope it will be marked appropriately. No additional funds are available with respect to Grant MacEwan College for an extension of the Mill Woods campus. I can't recall whether that was asked for by the Grant MacEwan College board of governors. It may very well have been since my department received quite a flood of requests for capital expansion. I can only report on those that were approved. The hon. Member for Grand Prairie raised an interest­ ing question relating to the registered nursing program raised earlier by the hon.

Member for Calgary North West. I think he is asking for a bridging program for registered nursing assistants so they may upgrade their qualifications to registered nurses status. That is a matter under review by the implementation committee. We ex­ pect that that is part of their mandate, and we hope they will come forward with recommendations. We now come to some questions and comments raised by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview with re­ gard to university funding. By and large, I think I have dealt with how we arrive at our university funding.

It may very well be that there has been an increase in ratio of staff to students over and above those quoted in Some Facts About the Funding of Post-secondary Institutions between '80-81 and '81-82, because there has been an increase in enrolment. But I would point out to members of this Assembly and to those who have asked questions and raised concerns about space at the University of Alberta, that despite enrolment increases this year, fewer students are studying at that institution now than five years ago, because there had been a significant decline.

That is why the university has made internal reallocations and why fewer people are now teaching education. That's understandable, because at one point the number of pu­ pils enrolled in the Faculty of Education was half what it was a few years ago. So certainly the university has to make these internal allocations. As far as the University of Alberta capital budget and the renovation of the arts and agriculture building, members of this Assembly and this committee, there is no question that the university asked that their number one priority be commerce and business administration, and that's what they got.

Unfortunately, other things will have to wait in line. I want to deal with the remissions aspect of the budget. Last year we budgeted $5 million for student finance. In fact the amount spent was $4.8 million. So we budgeted for the amount available last year that wasn't taken up. It may be that more remissions will be sought. If so, they will have to be accommodated. That's the answer to that question.

As to the subject of salaries, I really have a great deal of difficulty with suggestions that instead of comparing salaries within postsecondary institutions to other institu­ tions of a similar nature in neighboring provinces, we should begin comparing them with the private sector. That is an argument that is being used by some at the present time. I can see institutions having to provide extra by way of bonuses or incentives to attract people in

March 26, 1982 ALBERTA HANSARD 355 areas where there are tight market conditions. I have very real difficulty with those who then argue that those incen­ tives and bonuses must be passed on to everyone else in the system. Yet that in fact is what would have to happen under the collective bargaining agreements now in exist­ ence within the institutions. I cannot, and I would not, recommend that this government get caught up in that game. Mr.

Chairman, it is not accurate to try to compare a person in the private sector who has less certainty — let me put it that way — of maintaining his or her position than does a person in the university or college sector, particularly those with tenure. I have real difficulty with the argument being advanced in part by the hon. Member for Spirit River-Fairview. With respect to the hon. Member for Calgary Currie, I accept his compliments. I thank him for having kept the issue of Mount Royal expansion before me on a regular basis. We will review the individual matters the Member for Barrhead has raised.

However, within the appeal process now available for student finances, there's no reason that individual cases such as he has mentioned cannot be equitably and fairly dealt with when it comes to matters of abandoned children. I recommend to all members of the Assembly that they become familiar with this little booklet entitled Financial Assistance for Alberta Students, 1981-82. The appeal process is outlined therein. If any individual member has difficulties with an individual constituent's problem, please come to me with those concerns. We'll try to deal with them.

I've done so on a number of occasions for individual students, and I will continue to do that. That's my responsibility, as it is the responsibility of every member of this Assembly. Moving next to the hon. Member for Edmonton Bel­ mont, the subject of single parents with children and what can be made available to them by way of supplementary grants is well covered in our new programs. I will remind hon. members that two years ago we placed a ceiling on the loans, and made everything really required by stu­ dents available by way of supplementary grants of up to $2,500 per year.

In addition, maintenance grants are available to disadvantaged students who do not have normal prospects of completing their education. Those include special needs groups such as single parents and the disabled. In that respect, grants up to $6,000 per year can be made available. Those should certainly be pursued. Students will be expected to apply for assistance under the regular borrowing programs first, but in many cases may receive a maintenance grant after borrowing only $1,000 as a guaranteed loan. With the remission system coming into play, if it's a first-year program cost, that will be cut in half.

It will really mean paying back only $500. I've noted the comments by the hon. Member for Edmonton Glengarry. He has concerns about enrolment increases. We will be watching that very carefully. We have seen some evidence of that taking place now. With regard to his concerns about research, my departmental estimates do not include elements for research grants. They come from a variety of places. They come from governments, other departments, the private sector, and a number of federal government agencies. Quite frankly, those are extra funds made available. I'm not sure about the contract issue.

I don't understand that completely, but I'm sure the hon. member will be only too happy to fill me in on his concerns about the property aspect of research. Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. Member for Edmon­ ton Mill Woods for his compliments. I thank all members for having said such kind things, not only about myself but I think it is very important that we recognize that I have a very dedicated staff working for all of us and all Albertans. In one particular case, one question was raised that really relates to the Department of Education, as to teacher behaviour