Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 25B (32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-25b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 34 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker ISSN 0542-5492 VOL. XXXIII No. 258- 8:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 11 APRIL, 1985. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A.R. (Pete) ANSTET T, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BIRT, Charles T. BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.C., Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Ruaaell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, Jamea E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EV ANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Hon. Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA, Hon. Eugene KOV NATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilaon PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vie SCOTT, Don SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Verend rye Fort Garry Minnedosa Rhinelan d Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elm wood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charles wood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wo lseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Osborne River Heights Flin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 11 April, 1985. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRAN SPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: Committee. please come to order. We are still on Planning and Design and Land Surveys, Item 3.(

a) Planning and Design: 3.(a)

(1) Salaries and Wages; 3.(aX2) Other Expenditures. The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Thank you. Mr. Chairman. I have at least four questions that I'd like to put to the Mi nister about future plans to deal with certain problem situations. One of those has to do with Highway 23 where it passes by the training center at Ni nette.

The Minister perhaps is aware that there is an extremely sharp curve, a turn that's not even a curve, at the bottom of the hill that has quite a substantial drop and then there are a couple of curves at the top and I would say that over the past six years or so there have been I believe about nine accidents at these two corners, ranging from the point of one driver losing his life to other situations that have been less serious, some that might have been much more serious.

Just as recently as last fall, there was a truck overturned as it tried to gain enough speed to make the hill and overturned on its way up the hill. I believe it was carrying anhydrous ammonia. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the Minister just what kind of plans that his department has to deal with this situation which, I believe, must be dealt with fairly soon or else I think we're going to have some more serious accidents take place there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Mi nister. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, thank you. The situation has been under study for some time.

The department originally had a proposal to straighten out that road considerably, but it ran into a lot of difficulty with local landowners and they're attempting now to just straighten out some of the curves on the existing alignment and perhaps reduce the curvature, especially after it comes over the bridge that exists there. That is being considered at the present time and, hopefully, we will have a final design, from the information I have, by early this summer, with the only problem to work out as to what should happen as a replacement for that bridge there because of the desire to reduce the curvature.

The problems associated with that curve just past the bridge may mean relocation or realignment of the bridge at its existing location. So it is being worked on. it is recognized as a problem that has to be dealt with and we expect to have the final design location study finalized by early this summer. MR. B. RANSOM: Can the Min ister tell me if they're also looking at realigning th� top curve as well, it's 804 actually the top curve where the fatal accident took place? Has he any idea at this point in time what kind of costs might be involved here? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: We're not in a position to give the cost yet but, yes, that other curve would also be involved and straightened out as well, but it is Included in the existing design but they don't have the cost estimates for that requirement, that proposal. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I just urge the Minister to give a very high priority to this situation because it's not just a matter of convenience, this really is a situation where life and limb are threatened and I think we have been very fortunate, over the years that we haven't perhaps had more accidents than we have.

A second question I have is one that's been brought to my attention frequently by people involved with the St. Leon Co-op, and that has to do with any plans for the upg rading of Hig hway 23 from Deerwood to Provincial Road 244. The St. Leon Co-op wants to expand at that junction, and I believe if that

section isn't upg raded then they don't have the 350 pound access. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would just like a minute to get the details on that particular request. As I understand the member's question, he was asking what the plans were for the

section from 123, from Deerwood, to PR 431. The right-of-way has been completed for that

section of the road and it Is a matter now of including it in the program for grade widening and shoulder gravel and then subsequently the base and bituminous pavement. The existing AST on there is deteriorating, it's about 20 years old and requires strengthening. lt was last resealed In 1977. So it Is, with the traffic volume being quite su bstantial In that area, one of the priorities for consideration In the su bsequent programs. However, it was not Included this year. lt Is a reasonably high priority for that area from the department's point of view. MR. B.

RANSOM: But it is not included In any specific set of plans at this point in time. I know it's not In for this year. Is it definitely slated for next year or the year after? Or is it simply something that's recognized that needs to be done? HON. J. PLOHMAN: lt hasn't been programmed for this year, but we recognize it as a high priority, and I will make a note of it as well that it shouid be given strong consideration for next year's either pre advertising program or next year's program. MR. B. RANSOM: And what about the situation on No. 3 Highway from the junction of 3 and 10 south of Boissevain to Killarney?

I think the Minister may be aware that Killarney is rather restricted In the access that heavy trucks have to that town while road restrictions are on, and that

section of highway has

Thur.clay, 11 April, 1985 deteriorated very bad ly over the past few years. I'm wond ering what is the situation with that. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, jus t for clarification , is the member di scussing the

section from the north junction of PTH 18 to the west junction of PR 346? Is that the

section that he' s referring to? MA. B. RANSOM: I'm talking about from the junction of 3 an d 18 yes - at the north junction - from there to No. 10 Highway south of Boi ssevaln, a stretch of 29 ki lometres. HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe we have that separated Into two projects. From PTH 18 to PR 346 fi rst, that Is a distance of 10 miles or appro ximately 15 or 14 kilometres. The grade widening was completed in 1983 on that section, and the existing pavement was resealed In 1983 which would extend its life somewhat, but it is bein g propo sed for bitumin ou s pavement for subsequent year s by the department.

The pavement rating currently is 73 which, relative to a tot of other pavement rating s in the province, is not in as bad a shape according to the Information I have as many of our roads are. So from that point of view, it is not in a critical situation for being resurfaced. However, it is being propo sed by the department within the ne x t couple of year s. MA. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, if that stretch of highway Is consi dered to be not too bad compared to other highways In the province, then it's a commentary of the sad situation that the highway system has deteriorated to, because that stretch of highway, to anyone who drives it, Is in bad shape. lt's sadly in need of addi tional work being do ne. One other question then, Mr. Chairman, an d that has to do with Provinc ial Road 346 north of Margaret where it cro sses the Souris River.

This Is a rather picturesque roa d through the valley, but it al s o happen s to be a road that has a real old -fashioned hai rpin curve in it and the school bu s has to travel that road and farmers have to haul grain on that road as well. While it is as I say, picturesque, I'm afraid that it's not a very serviceable road in terms of bearing traffic at all times of the year as it must now do , especially with the school bu ses on it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman , as the member may know the right-of-way was completed some time ago for that section.

There are 2.5 miles that are required for upgrading, an d the major expen diture is the Souri s River bridge which is estimated now at $1 million, that's a major crossing; and from a point of view of priorities an d because of its weight restriction of 14 tonnes , it would seem to be a high priority. The In dication s we have from our tests on average daily traffic are that there are only 46 vehicles per day. Now aga in as I sa id yester day during Es tima tes discussion, that quite often we are told that if the road of course was in a different cond ition more traffic could travel on it.

But the case is that there are only 46 veh icles per day at the present time an d therefore it makes it somewhat of a lower prior ity than otherwi s e would be the case. 805 The other factor, as I mentioned , is the fact that the bridge itself is a major expen diture of $1 million for that bri dge. So it Is ready to go and wo uld be con sidered, but thos e are some of the other sides of the argument that I present. MA. B. RANSOM: Well, has the department consi dered realign ing the road and using the old bridge? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, the current bridge is restricted to 14 tonnes and one truck cro ssing at a time. lt is co ns idered by the bridge

section to be structurally, hydraulically and geomet rically inad equate as they describe lt, and therefore in need of replacement as opposed to utilizing that existing bridge because it's totally inadequate at the present time for an upgraded route. So since the new route ha s already been acquired in terms of acquisition of right-of-way, there is no cons ideration by the department to go back to the existing alignment an d utilize a bridge that would need replacement in any event. MA. B. RANSOM: So the site of the new bridge is not on the site of the ol d bridge th en? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, Mr.

Chairman , it is about 900 to 1 ,000 feet distance away. MR. B. RANSOM: Is that to the east? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I believe it is to the east. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minned os a. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have one or two question s here. First of all, I know we're advised of the Grant In Aid Program for various streets in different towns. The press releas e on the Dauphin Street Program seems to be inordi nately high with 16 items ad ded for Grant In Ai d this year.

I wond er if the Minis ter might tell us when the planni ng and design was do ne, or what it's go ing to entail in the Grant In Ai d Program, what is going to be the co st of the 50-50 Grant In Aid project for these 16 Items. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it's Interesting that the member should point thos e out as add iti onal streets, eligible streets, because the Town of Dauphin has written me, shortly after that, and asked why two others weren't included without any thank s for those.

But I will ment ion that tho s e are only declared as el igible after looking at a situation that hadn't been reviewed for a number of years. The Town of Dauphin came forward an d said, look, we would like to have consi deration for these additional streets as being declared eligible und er the criteria. Things change, different in stitution s, churches an d schools, hospi tal s and so on as town s develop over a period of years.

These were recons idered thi s spring, as is the case with many town s and villages which make requests for a change in eligibility for their streets, an d it was deemed by the department that a number of thos e should be con sidered el igible for grant in aid, but that is not to say that they are going to be approved

Thuradey, 11 April, 1985 for expendit ures this coming year. They will be eligible, and they could be requested by the town over any number of years over the next period of time. So what the member is referring to is those that have been declared eligible, on the basis of the criteria that are available or that exist. I can relate those specific criteria, but these all, according to the department, meet those criteria. MR. D. BLAKE: This may augur well then for the Town of Alexander , they want to swap a couple of grant in aid streets to have a couple of others included in the situation I mentioned earlier , Mr.

Chairman. The bridge on Highway 250 between No. 16 Hig hway and No. 45 Highway, Mr. Chairman, has there been a survey and design done on a bridge for that crossing there when the completion of that

section of 250 is completed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Could you just, Mr. Chairman, clarify what PR No. the member . . . MR. D. BLAKE: Hig hway 250, the bridge over the Little Saskatchewan River between Highway 16 and 45. That's the one

section of 250 that has to be completed to complete the road to Sandy Lake. HON. J. PLOHMAN: The proposal is that that

section still requires acquisition of right-of-way. MR. D. BLAKE: So it's on the program for acquisition of right-of-way . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. MR. D. BLAKE: . . . but I just wonder if the bridge planning design had been done on the bridge. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, okay, I'll just check that. Mr. Chairman, the proposal was that the bridge be considered along with the grading and gravelling for that section. it's not usually done when the acquisition is done, so it would be designed and built at the same time that the grade and gravel was approved.

The proposal is that that be considered for approval, at the earliest, in next year's program by the department, so that's where that sits. The bridge itself has not been designed but would be ready to go concurrently with the grading. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, the road could be completed without the bridge being changed, I realize that. We don't want to hold the road up for ... HON. J. PLOHMAN: But the plan is to do the bridge at the same time. MR. D. BLAKE: At the same time. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Ye s. MR. D.

BLAKE: The Mini ster was made aware when a delegation appeared here a while ago with the costs that Hydro was going to be involved with the various work they were planning in th� area that really would 806 seem unne cessary if that road was going to be rebuilt in the very near future. Has that liaison with the Hydro people been carried out? HON. J. PLDHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we'd ask the district to follow up on that through the district engin eer, Mr. McGuirk. We have not received a further report on that, but we will check on the progress of that matter. MR. D. BLAKE: A further question on bridges in R.M. s.

There are a number of bridges that are over smaller creeks and that, that are not main thoroughfares as some of them are. it's necessary to replace them to lower the size of them so as the bigger machinery and whatnot can get over, are used maybe in the spring and in the fall, that would be about the heaviest traffic over them. Is there any assistance to the municipalities for building bridges in situations like that other than the assistance available under the Community Assets Program? Is there any assistance available through the Highways Branch for municipalities? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: No, there is no special bridge program other than the Municipal Community Assets Program through the Department of Highways. But since the member mentioned that program it Is, I think, an excellent one for municipalities and is targeted particularly for bridge s as one of the priorities. I am hopeful that more and more municipalities will come forward with proposals that they are willing to share on a 50-50 basis because it gives them the opportunity to get some work done that they couldn't do otherwise and we have seen a number of them come forward; it was designed for that purpose.

But under the Highways Department we do not have a special assistance program for rural municipalities since the takin g over of the roads in the '60s, of the municip alities. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I mentioned before the supper hour that I was interested in the cost of the studies that have been done on the Brandon No. 1 Highway going north of Brandon and on the eastern access proposal. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, the original study that was commissioned by the former government, which the member was a part of, regarding the highway needs for the Brandon area, lt ended up at $323,500 and that was the study to priorize various highways needs In the area to service the Brandon area. Subsequent to that, we decided that it was necessary to have more detail on proposed routes for an eastern access into Brandon so that the routes would be defined to the functional design stage so that we could go ahead with property acquisition once a route had been selected.

So they're looking at the alternatives for that area in detail and we'll be making the recom mendations within the next month or so. That study is a follow-up to provide that additional detail is valued at $70,950.00. So the total would be $393,000 for those two studies. MR. D. BLAKE: That sounds like a tremendous amount of money to come up with the recommendation such

Th'-!raday, 11 April, 1985 as the one they came up with on mo ving the No. 1 Highway nort h which was a ridiculous recommend ation. I'm not speak ing as a highway des igner or a traffic eng ineer, Mr. Chairman , but some of the comments that have been passed on to me from that area just seemed like a tremen dous waste of fund s and th en to follow up with an additional study on the eastern access route. Now, unfortunately, I haven't got the design plans or the proposed designed routes with me, Mr.

Ch airman, but from memory there were about three different routes pi cked there, and it seems that the one route has met with complete approval - I'm speak ing of the area - from th e people using th e area, th e Ch amber of Commer c e, the City of Brand on, which apparently wasn't one of the routes chosen by the department or recommended by the stu dy. I wond er if the Min ister could confi rm now that he has taken the conc erns of th ose local residents and the people involved into cons ideration in mak ing the final decision to �ecommen d the route. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, certainly we are prepared to take those in and that's why we went forward with th is ad dit ional study in that area. The consultants origina lly had not recommen ded th is as a priority as th e member may be aware. They were, instead, recommen ding a north ern by-pass around Brand on as a fi rst priority. But we have looked at th at situation and feel because of the hazardo us good s issue and so on th at the matter of an eastern access sh ould be a hig her priority, and that is consi stent with what the comm unity has sa id.

However, there is some conc ern in terms of the viability, if I could call it that, of such a projec t because it is a major in vestment being placed too far out of Brand on that it would not be used by local traffic and therefore wouldn't justify its construction to the sam e extent at th is time as would a route closer in. So we wanted to look at th ose in more detail. I th ink the route the member is referring to is the 49th Street route th at most people have ac cepted or des ired as being the top opti on.

That one is some distanc e out from Brand on and one that, because it would not serve the same amount of traffic as a route closer in would, there was some reluctan c e to ac cept imme diately.

So we wanted to look at those further and look at the comparative costs in detail of about th ree separate routes, and I be lieve there was 49t h, 17 th Street and some variations in between those to determine the, because of the railway tracks and the ot h er hig hways in the area, overpasses, interchanges, river crossings and so on required, to find out exactly which route would be the most efficient in terms of costs, and at the same time serve the area the best.

That's why the ad dit ional study was do ne, even th oug h on a superficial basis the residents and the city may have decided that the one route was the on e they want, we feel th at it is incumben t about upon us to at least have th ose oth er details, and we expect them sh ortly and we'll be mak ing a decision thereafter. MR. D. BLAKE: The on e proposed route I th ink went smack dab right th rough the thermal generating station 807 property there. There was one from the feedba ck I got from the local city people seemed to be una cceptable to them when they looked at the 49th Street route.

So I'm sure the Mini ster will be taking all of the conc erns of the local people into cons ideration when the fi nal decision is made on what route is finally chosen there. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we certainly will be looking at th at. These opti ons were only put out there as opti ons so that there would be some alternatives for people to look at in that initial study that the member is referring to. This study that we're do ing now will flush these opti ons out to the stage that whichever one we choose will be ready for acquisition. We'll have it in that kind of detail.

So we're look ing at, as I said, a number of variat ions, an d we'll cons ider all of th ose conc erns raised locally as well as the requirement to maximize the use of such an ac cess because of its substanti al cost. MR. D. BLAKE: Looking at the costs of do ing those studies, that looks like a pretty lucrative business. There's ab out a th ird of the bridge gone there, Mr. Ch airman, in studying the problem. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, the original stu dy of course was und ertaken by th e previous gov ernment and it cost about five times as much as the study that we followed up, to flush out in more detail some of these opti ons, but I recogni ze that they are hig h costs. But there was a need to do a func tional study for the Brand on area in terms of the priorities there, and I th ink it has served th at purpose. They did n't just deal with an eastern access and a north ern by-pass. They dealt with about 16 different recommen dations and pri orized them.

We have accepted most of those recom men dati ons so it will gi ve direction to the Department of Hig hways over the next number of years in terms of priorities for that area. So it served a valuable purpose from th at point of view. But I do appre ciate that the studies did cost a substantial amount of mon ey. MR. D. BLAKE: I won't comment on which former High way Min ister un dertook the studies. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(a)( 1) -p ass; 3.(a)(2)- pass. 3.(

b) Land Surveys: 3.(b)( 1) Salaries and Wages; 3.( b)

(2) Oth er Expen ditures - th e Member for Minned osa. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I have a mo tion before passing th at item, th at appropriation . MR. CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute. MR. D. BLAKE: Wh at is your moti on? Are you go ing to pass Item 93, $2,676,900, Mr. Ch airman ? MR. CHAIRMAN: No, we're only on Item 3.(a)( 1) ar j 3.(a)(2), the resolution is yet to come. MR. D. BLAKE: 3.( a)(1) and 3.(a)(2)- pas:. MR. CHAIRMAN: You want to pass 3.(a)(2 )? and

Thureday, 11 April, 1985 MR. D. BLAKE: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(b)(1)-pass; 3.(b)(2)-p ass. Resolution No. 93. MR. D. BLAKE: Now, Mr. Chairman, it is moved by myself, seconded by the Member for Virden, that Appropriation No. 3, Planning and Design and Land Surveys amounting to $2,6 76,900 be reduced by the amount of $150,000, and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that any saving in this resolution be transferred to the appropriate resolution to cover the completion of the bridge over the Carrot River to service the Saskeram area. Mr. Chairman has to consider that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Oh, there's no concern.

The motion is on the floor. The Chair will accept the mover to put the motion in writing, please. MR. D. BLAKE: Here it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: ... the motion. lt consists of two parts; the first

part is okay, but the second

part violates new Rule 54(2) in the sense that it constitutes an increase of the appropriate item with respect to the completion of the bridge over the Carrot River. So if the member would move the first part by amending it, it might be accepted by the floor. The motion will end up by saying that the Appropriation No. 3, Planning and Design and Land Surveys, amounting to $2,676,900 be reduced by the amount of $150,000.00. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Point of order now being raised . MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of order , I think that there is no change in the amount of money. There is no requirement from the Lieutenant -Governor in-Council for any additional mon ey. So, Mr. Chairman, I think that you should reconsider that particular point, because there is no call on the Lieutenant -Governor for any additional money whatsoever. This is just merely a transfer of money from one segment to another, and it does not require the authority of the Lieutenant Governor-in-Cou ncil. MR. CHAIRMAN: For the elucidation of the member, let me read the Rule under which we operate.

Section 54(2) says: "No memb er, who is not a minister of the Crown shall move any amendment to a Bill or to estimates that increases any expenditure or varies a tax or a rate of tax or provides an exemption or increases an exemption from a tax or a proposed tax, but a member who is not a minister of the Crown may move an amendment to a Bill that decreases an expenditure or that removes or reduces an exemption from a tax or a proposed tax." So the only kind of motion that a member who is not a Minister of the Crown may move is one that moves an amendment to a bill that decreases an expenditure. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, that is your ruling? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just reading the rule. 808 MR. H. ENNS: Make your ruling, Mr. Chairman. You are rejecting the motion put forward by my colleague from Minn edosa? MR. CHAIRMAN: The motion as put, because of its form, is not acceptable, because the motion if it were to be acceptable must merely suggest or propose to the Minister who executes and who has the formal authority to make a motion. MR. H. ENNS: Question. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson, he's not available. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H.

ENNS: The ruling of the Chairman be sustained is the question that you now put, Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: That's right. There is no debate on that question. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, the Member for Thompson is . . . MR. H. ENNS: There is no point of order. I had challenged the Chairman's ruling. I would ask the Clerk to instruct the Chairman . . . HON. A. ANSTETT: There is no debate. MR. H. ENNS: The Chair is challenged, and you have a vote. MR. A. DRIEDGER: No no, not in this case, it isn't. Read your rulebook. Once the Chair is challenged, the vote is called. Mr. Chairman, called the vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order is not an attempt to speak on the motion, it's a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, If the Chair is challenged and the question . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! A MEMBER: Well, call the question. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. MR. H. ENNS: And your integrity's been challenged, Mr. Chairman. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. H. ENNS: Well, call the question then. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The ruling of the Chair has been challenged.

Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained by the members of the committee or not?

Thursday. 11 April, 1985 The question before this committee is whether the ruling of the Chair shall be sustained or not. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. The question is whether this committee will sustain the ruling of the Chair or not. Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? The Yeas have it. Those opposed to the motion? MR. R. BANMAN: You don't ask for the Nays, the Yeas have it. A MEMBER: The Member for La Verendrye's moved it's unanimous. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: This is a good exercise. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, will you fulfill your role, please? HON. A. ANSTETT: Take the Yeas and Nays, please. MR. H. GRAHAM: You've got the Yeas, now ask for the Nays. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair asks for the vote of Nays. The Yeas have it. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, Yeas and Nays, please. A formal vote, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A formal vote is being asked. This is a committee; we have got to have a formal vote. (Committee recessed to Chamber for vote.) MR.

CHAIRMAN: Let there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2, 676,900 for Highways and Transportation, Planning and Design and Land Surveys for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1986- pass. We ar e now on Item No. 4. (a)(1 ) and 4.(a )

(2) Engi neering and Te chnical Services, Mana gement Services: 4.(a)( 1) Salaries, 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditur es pass. 4.(

b) Mechanica l Equipment Servic es: 4.(b)

(1) Salaries and Wages, 4.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures--pass; 4.(b)

(3) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations pass. Item No. 4.(

c) Warehouse Stores: 4.(c)

(1) Salaries and Wages- pass; 4.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 4.(c)

(3) Purchases-pass; 4.(c)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Other Appropriations-pass. Item No. 4.(

d) Northern Airports: 4.(d)

(1) Salaries and Wages- pass. 4.(d)

(2) Other Expendit ures - the Member for Minned osa. 809 MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, on some of the Northern Airports, I just want one or two questions. Leaf Rapids, Mr . Chairman, there were some problems there in the past with stabilizing that airstrip there. There were numerous comp laints in the past. I wonder if he could tell us what the situation is now with the Leaf Rapids Airport. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, that's not one of the airports that we are responsible for under the Northern Airports Program.

We had assisted them in the past under the transportation section, a grant to that airport, but that's not a part of the program here under ... MR. D. BLAKE: Under Northern Airports? HON. J. PLOHMAN: it's Appropriation 5 that it's under, that one. it's just a grant to assist in the operation of that airport, but it's not one of the ones that we are operating. MR. D. BLAKE: Where do the rest of the funds come from? Is it a federally funded airport? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I can't, Mr.

Chairman, explain where the other funding comes for the airport, but I know that we only contribute a small amount to that airport through our grants under the transportation division,

Section 5. As I have ind icated earli er, it is not one of the ones we maintain in Northern Manitoba, so it doesn't fit under this appropriation. MR. D. BLAKE: Just a general question. Are there any problems associated with the other airstrips and what is the accident rate, in general, on the airstrips covered under this section? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I understand that it's very low. I don't have exact figures, but there is not an outstanding problem with regard on accidents on these airports that are maintained by the department in Northern Manitoba.

We get complaints from time to time about runways and the need for gravel and improvements, but overall it's been a smooth operation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(d)(2)-pass; 4.(

e) Marine Services: 4.(e)( 1) Salaries and Wages-pass. 4.(e )

(2) Other Expen ditures - the Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Mini ster could tell us how many ferry services are now in operation and how many are stored or dry-docked. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we had one that was stored this past year, the M.V. Charlie Sincla ir, which has been moved to South Indian Lake at the present time and will be operating in July at that new location. lt was moved from Cross Lake and will be serving between South Bay and South Indian Lake ,., this fiscal year. So that's the only one that was nnt operating this past year in Northern Manitoba.

I cc ' give the member the list of the various ferries if ht desires, but these have not changed from tile ,·eviou year. in not could he so previous

Thursday, 11 April, 1915 MR. D. BLAKE: I notice the M.V . Ed gar Wood is leased to the Channel Area Community Servi ces for an operational grant of $60,000.00. That's a grant provided by the government to the band to operate it. Is it all used up or is that the total operating cost of that service? HON. J. PLOHMAN: As the member may note, there is a number of them that have special grants and that covers actually the M. V. Edgar Wood , the C.F. Thomas A. Mclvor and the C. F. lngemar Carlson, which have received grant s, an d that doe s not cover the total co st of operation because the . . . MR. D.

BLAKE: The rental operation and leasing co st of it. HON. J. PLOHMAN: They operate addi tiona l trips. That is a subs idy for the operation to them. MR. D. BLAKE: Their revenue is generated from tariff on pa ssenger s and veh icles being trans ported, is that right? - (Int erjection) - No charge? HON. J. PLOHMAN: No, thi s Is a provincial subsid y for their operation, but I und erstan d that they do n't charge for the operation and for a toll or anything like that for their operation, so they supplement thos e operation s from other revenue sources. MR. D.

BLAKE: The wages of the operato rs are paid out of another appropriation, is that right, employed by marine services and other sections ? HON. J. PLOHMAN: In these cases, they are operating thes e service s, not the de partment. We make a contri bution or, in othe words, a subsidy for their operation, but they pay their own operators from their own sources. This is a subsidy to help them operate. MR. D. BLAKE: There are some that are operated by the government totally? � HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes. Mr. Chairman, that's right, the M. V. Charlie Sinc lair will be operate d by the government; the M. V.

Joe Keeper, Split Lake to York Lan ding; the C. F. Jam es Apetagon, Nelson River Cro ssing at Seaf alls enroute to Nor way Ho use community; an d C. F. Alfred Settee Sr., Nelson River Cro ssing at Pipestone Lake enroute to Cross Lake co mmuni ty. Thos e are all operated by the department, the other three that I mentioned earlier receive a subsidy and the communiti es operate them thems elves. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(eX2)-pa ss; 4.(

f) Materials an d Re search; 4.(f X1) Salaries an d Wages-pa ss. 4.( f)

(2) Other Expen ditures - the Member for Minned os a. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, the questions we had on testing an d standards, Mr. Chairman, were an swered previously when we got started on this, so we can pass that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(fX2)- pass. 810 4.(

g) Traffic Operations: 4.(gX 1) Salaries an d Wages pa ss. 4.(g)

(2) Other Expen di tures - the Member for Minned os a. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, what's entailed in this expen diture, Mr. Chairman, quickly. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, traffic signals are included , illumination, pavement marking s, signing, sign shop s, speed limit s. Well they make recommen dations to the Highway Traffic Board respecting speed limits; they keep accid ent records; monitor the travel speeds, and I can give pavement markings as being one of the major areas.

I can give details for the various cos ts for each appropriation, illumination for example, $740,000; sign manufacturing $800,000; pavement marking s 1,490,000; an d a number of other smaller appropriations, railway crossing signals $770, 000; another major one, electrical traff ic controlled devices $360,000.00. There's been a number of new signage programs that I mentioned in my opening statement to the member so I won't go into that right now, but thos e are all covered und er thi s section. MR. D. BLAKE: These signs in the press release, Mr.

Chairman, will be replaced, as the press release ind icates, as they become worn out or irreparable. What expens e per year do you feel that thi s will represent, the replacement of these signs ? Some comment s on what have they done to our buffalo when they see the new sign going up, Mr. Chairman. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, we do n' t have a planned specific amount for that area because a lot of them are replaced when recon struction takes place, new cons truction on a particular road.

The signs are taken down during cons truction an d they will be replaced, in those cases, with the new signs . lt depends on the amount of cons truction that takes place in any particular year. So it would vary, and it would al s o vary according to the need for replacement for thos e that are deteriorated to the point that they have to be replaced. So we do n't have a specific appropriation or amount of do llars for that , a lot of them are charged to the particular cons truction program, grading program that might be taking place in an area. I think they're rather attractive though, the new sign s.

I'm sure that the honourable member would agree. MR. D. BLAKE: As I say there are many comments , what have they do ne to our buffalo? lt's been described as a pork chop with leg s and various other descriptions. I suppos e we all recognize it for what it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(g X2)-pa ss. 4.(gX 3) - the Member for Glad stone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I wanted to discuss the Redcoat Trail und er thi s heading, may I do that; or is there another place where it would be better discussed? HON. J. PLOHMAN: This is the place to talk about it because it involve s signage.

Thursday, 11 April, 1915 MRS. C.

OLESON: Well for a considerable length of time there have been committees from both Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Alberta working on this commem orative trail to be called the Redcoat Trail, and the most recent development that I have knowledge of is a letter from the Manitoba Busine ss Development and Tourism office saying that this signing of the Redcoat Trail will not take place, and the Min ister outlined in a couple of pages his reasons for this, and I'm wondering of the Min ister of Highways who is respo nsible for decisions to do with highways, the Minis ter of Tourism or the Min ister of Highways? HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's obviously, in this particular case, not a clear-cut respo nsibility for either department. it involve s also Historical Resources in this particular case because the request to designate a particular route is being done to commemora te an historic trek of the Redcoat, Northwest Mounted Police, across Manitoba and into Saskatchewan and Alberta.

The concern, of course, is that it should be historically accurate, and that was one of the major problems that was associated, as the mem ber is probably no doubt aware, with the original request to designate Highway 2 as the Redcoat Trail. Of course, there is a group on Highway 3 that would like to see the designation and there's also groups more southerly whic h probably more accurately repres ent, as far as historically accu racy, the actual route that is to be commemorated.

So there was concerns expressed from Historic Resources and, as well, Tourism has become the lead department in this area because the major reason for the request for signing was to impr ove tourism and to attract tourists to those routes and take them off Highway No. I, perhaps, and have them travel through other routes 2 or 3, depending which group you're involved with, through more southerly route through Manitoba. So it is to impr ove tourism and to attract people to those areas and imp rove business and so on. So that's why Tourism is involved in this particular instance.

We are, as a Department of Highways, in a position that we will consider signing a route that does not have the objections of those other departments after they have care fully considered all of the concerns that are raised, and we're still prepared to do that if there can be an agreement on a particular route. But, in the absence of that agreement, the concerns express ed, particularly by the Historic Resources, we cannot accede to signing that route. MRS. C. OLESEN: Mr.

Chairman, I think that the key word in this is "commemorative," and the comm ittee that was suggesting this, and requesting this designation, at no time ever suggested that this was the authentic route, and there is no way, unless you build a complete new highway across southern Man itoba, that you would ever get onto the exact route, if you could find it. So there was no suggestion that this was an authentic historic route and I think that the intention by the comm ittee was to place markers directing people that wish to travel to an exact site, they could do so.

This was mainly a connecting route with Saskatche wan. Now we have a situation where we get to the border of Saskatche wan, if we're going west, and we 're 811 suddenly on the Red Coat Trail. All this is very fine, but when you're coming from the other way, the Red Coat Trail ends and the whole thrust of the thing is lost. I tell you that the people in Saskatchewan on a comm ittee, you have probably heard from them, that they are not very happy, and of course the people who have done so much work along No. 2 Highway are far from enchanted with the situation as it stands now.

There was some plan that I heard of last fall to designate several highways and that I could agree was going to be quite an interest ing travelogue of southern Manitoba if you follow that way. But I hope the Minister will endeavour to find some workable solution in that a road can be designated as a comme morative trail. There was never any in sistence that it be an authentic historic route. The first meeting I had with the group and went to see a former Minis ter of Highways, he was quite enthusiastic about the program and in fact signs apparently were made. What has become of those signs?

Are they In storage till whenever? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate much of what the member is saying. I also have a great deal of enthusiasm for the project and sympathy for what is going on. I have met with Mr. Ewart Hudson and probably one of the persons from Glenboro that the member has probably talked to on this particular matter. I appreciate the effort they have put into this and regret that we weren't able to accommodate that request. it was a very frustrating experience to say the least .

I'm not so sure that Saskatchewan and Alberta considered the historic signif icance of that route when they allowed the signing, or promoted the signing of that route, the route through the other two provinces. They did not take into consideration the matter of historical signif icance in the same way that we have here in Manitoba, and probably as a result of a concern raised by a person from the RCMP original ly, and when that was brought to our attention we had no option but to consider what they were saying in terms of its historic significance.

Although it may be commemorative in intention, it doesn't mean that people travel ling can understand that it's only commemorative. So there can be a misunderstanding about that and therefore it becomes a misrepresen tation of history which we are concerned about and which we had to consider when this was brought to our attention. I'm hopeful that through working with the Department of Tourism that they will find a suitable alternative for the naming of some of the highways In southern Manitoba. We have to remember that Highway 3 Is probably much closer to the actual trek than Highway 2.

So it wouldn't be suitable from that point of view to name Highway 2. So I think they have to continue to work with the Department of Tourism, see if they can't come to some other arrangement, some other suitable name that will attract tourists in the same way because that was the purpose I believe, mainly. lt wasn't to commemorate necessarily that route and certainly it wasn't historically accurate if they would have been doing it. But it was to attract tourism people to that area, and there must be other ways to do it if we use some imagination and that really is the key to it, I think.

Thursd•J, 11 April, 1115 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chai rman, I would like to make a few comme nt s with respect to that is sue because it was I who or iginally received the delegation with respect to the signage for Highway No. 2. At that time we were not aware that was not the authentic route, an d it was only subsequent to a verbal commitment to them at that time that we thought it was a good idea, that we fo und out that it wasn't in deed representa ti v e of the route that in fact is known as the historical route.

Upon checking with the hi storical people we found out that the more accurate route was goi ng to be along No. 3 Highway, but no route is accurate an d that has to be und erstood because what we were talking about, hi storically speaking, is trails, horseback trail s if you like, and not highways for cars or locomot ives or whatever.

So at that time I took the position that what we should do , if we recognize the importance of that hi storical fact , that we do that in a way that as closely as po ssible resembles the route within the parameters of paved surfaces, and therein lay the reason why we deci ded to put the suggestion forward that No. 3 should be the route that should be established as such if one was to be established at all, because it would more closely resemble the accurate route.

Subsequent to that, of course, there were delegation s that expressed concern because it wasn't the actual route, that the actual route was somewhere along the U.S. bord er on what is now known as a gravel road - I think it's a PR at one poi nt - but again it deviated from the policy pos ition which I had adopted and that was that we wanted to follow pavement routes.

We were not wanting to encourage tourism traffic on routes that di d not lend thems elves to that purpose, an d the fear that once we did that we would find oursel ves in a po sition of having to be persuaded later down the road to spend many million s of do llars to upgrade the routes that are authentic where there is no other reason for do ing so. So we stuck with the po sition that we would try to get as close to the route as po ssible but we would remain on the pavement, and No. 3 Highway was where I had come down to recommen d. Where that sits now, I really do n't know.

I gather there ha s been some change of opinion since that time. I happen to thi nk that pieces of history like that are probably important to remember in many ways. I happen to agree with the noti on that promoting it via tourism an d identifi cation along roadways is probably a good way to do that. lt is a rich part of our early history that I think should be remembered in some way on a sort of regular da ily ba sis, if you like, because it's really part of our heritage. So the principle is sound in my op ini on.

I do n't think we could ever resolve the arguments with respect to where it should happen, an d unfortunately we can't sati sfy all thos e needs.

One has to recogn ize that the promoters of Route No. 2 seized upon the idea very much on a commercial basi s. lt was really a bu siness decis ion to enhance business along No. 2 Highway for restaurants, garages, mot els or whatever and that's fair game, but we should recognize that for what it is. lt's very diff icult from the point of view of principle, though, to accom mod ate that request, because once 812 you start to tamper with historical fact, then certainly the state has a respon sibility to be as accurate to history as po ssible and we wouldn't want to abuse the hi storical fact s that are there in that regard.

I do n't thi nk we should be used in that way. I think history is important. So we'll leave it there, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minned os a. MR. D.

BLAKE: Yes, there's a trail runni ng through the con stituency of myself and the Honou rable Member for Virden that has some historical sign ificance. lt's known by all an d sund ry in the area and a great many Manitoban s as the "turkey trail," but it has lost over the years a lot of that hi storical signifi cance and the name now is referred to, an d the local resident s now are wond ering if it s referring to the residents along there rather than for the purpose that the name was originally attached to that trail. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to follow on the remark s of the Honourable Mini ster of Natural Resources. I think when you start dealing with hi storical naming of particular roads, I think one of the thi ng s we may be mi ssing is the interprovincial dialogue that may be necessary. I find it rather disturbing that here in Man itoba we may want to designate a certain road but because of a provincial bound ary it may not tie in with what has already been designated in other areas. I say this , Mr.

Chairman, because I know I have been part an d parcel of a group tha t hav e been very successful over the years in designating a particular highway, not only in Manitoba but in Saskatchewan an d in Alberta and in British Columbia, which is now known all acro ss Canad a and the United States as the Yellowhead Highway. Now there has never been any suggestion that Ted Jo hn, which the highway is named after, ever travelled in Man itoba at all. Hi s activities were confined to B.

C., but we as a province have decided to go along with the other provinces, and we now have a common highway called the Yellowhead Highway which goes right to the west coast an d is known for tourist purposes an d als o for commercial purposes as basically a secon d Trans -Canad a Highway in Western Canad a. lt is used very exten sively by ind ustry and it is now very seldom people refer to Highway 16. They all refer to the Yellowhead Highway.

So it has through usage adopted a particular historical name that really has no bearing whatsoever in Man itoba, but it does have a very signif icant value for tourist purposes and for commercial purposes. So I would ask the Mini s ter when he' s cons idering this particular project, that he consult exten s ively with other provinces where they have apparently adopted a particular pos ition. I think that Manitoba sho uld do everything they can to co-operate as they have in the past. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, since the time that I've been Minis ter of Highways, I have com municated on this issue of the Red Coat Trail a number of times

Thursday, 11 April, 1185 to the Min ister from Saskatchewan, and have not received any constructive background or any detail on the criteria used in that particular province and in Alb erta for the naming. 1 think that there is quite a difference between the designation of the Yellowhead route and the Red Coat Trail. The Yellowhead route does not pretend in any way, 1 don't think, to represent an historic route through Ma nitoba,

whereas the Yellowhead would seem, because of the nature of its name, to be representing an historic trek. And that's the difference. I mean, we have another route called the Northern Woods and Water route. lt's a tourism route. lt doesn't represent anything historic, and it's much easier to name. But when you get into the historic area and you're representing history, then I think there are some different considerations that you have to take into account. So I think the member is raising a rather separate issue with a separate set of criteria. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the Minis ter would not want it left on the record that he does not consider the Yellowhead to be an historic route, because the whole concept of the Yellowtiead does have a very deep historic base. Unfortunately that base is in B.C., but it does have a very significant historic base. I say that as a member of that association. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, I have a great deal of admir ation for the work tha t th e Yellowhead Association has done. I've been at their annual meetings in each of the last three years and have spoken there, and we've put a great deal of priority on that route.

So there is no doubt about our commitment to that particular route, as the member probably has as well to that route, but what I'm saying is that it does not pretend to represent an historic route in this province, and that is quite different then. MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, I just have one question on this section. The signage outlining various tourist facilities at the entrance to towns along the various routes, at what stage is this particular project now? How many have taken advantage of it? Just where is that signage program at? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Chairman, it has only been annou nced in the last month or two, so that a lot of communities have not had an opportun ity to take advantage of the program as yet, there's only a few. But there are 65 designated communities along various tourist routes that were designated by the Department of Tourism under funding from the Destination Manitoba Program, a federal-provincial program.

Those are eligible, and I have criteria that I could give within five kilometres of those particular routes - five kilometres - and they could then take advantage of the cost-sharing program for erection of those signs and the construction and manufacture of those signs, but it's just beginning. We hope that, following this first phase - that's Phase One of the program - that we would be able to expand it to cover in Phase Two and Phase Three all of the communities in the province through a special prog ram under the Hig hways Department funding.

But at this time it is being funded through the Desti nation Manitoba Program. There are 65 communities eligible on major tourist routes, and they include Hig hway 10 right up to Flin Flon ; High way 391 thr ough Sn ow Lake or up to Thompson and Lynn Lake; they include as well Highway 16 or the Yellowhead route; Highway No. 1; Highw ay 10, I indicated right from Flin Flon all the way down to the American border; Highway 8; Highway 6 up to the Narrows and across the Northern Woods and Water Route; across the Narrows and up to Camperville area; Hig hway 9 to Gimli; Highway 11; Highway 44; Highway 12 ; Highway 75.

Those are the communities that are included under that program. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(g)(2)-pass; 4.(g)(3)- pass. 4.(

h) Government Air and Radio Services: 4.(h)( 1) Salaries - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Under this item, (1) or (2), Mr. Chairman, it doesn't matter. I wonder if the Min ister could bring us up-to-date on how many aircraft they own, if it's changed from the 19 83-84 report. There were some aircraft advertised for sale, I wonder if he could tell us what aircraft have been sold and give us some idea of the prices they brought. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we have 15 aircraft as of now.

Three are up for sale, including two Beavers - a standard turbo Beaver, and a Skymaster - those are being tendered for sale, and we do not have the results of those tenders through Government Services. We haven't received the bids yet; they close on the 22nd of April. When we receive those, we'll know what the value of those are, but we will have then down to 12 and then when the Citation S-2, which is new air ambulance jet that comes on, we'll have one additional so we'll be up to 13. MR. D. BLAK E: There are no plans to buy any additional aircraft? 813 HON. J. PLOHMAN: Not at this time, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: The Minister mentioned an aircraft which is dear to my ears, I'm sure, and it's also dear to other Northern MLA's, the Citation 2. I know a lot of people in the North are anxious to know when the Citation 2 will be in action as an air ambula nce. I'm wondering if the Minister can give us an update on that. I understand it's scheduled for some time in the summer. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, unfortunately the member's question is very timely.

We had expected that the new Citation S-2 which is being bought from Cessna Corporation in Wichita, Kansas, and is being manufactured from the ground up as an air ambulance with all of the requirements for an air ambulance being met and included in its construction is delayed by approxima tely a month-and-a-half or so, so we're looking at a September 1st delivery date, as opposed to July that we expected and that we were budgeting for. We have just received that word today, so that it will begin operation in September.

Thuradey, 11 April, 1985 MR. S. ASHTON: I recently was at a public meeting in regard to the air ambulance, and there was a fair amount of interest in seeing the actual aircraft itself, particularly the medical people at the meeting were quite anxious. I'm just wondering if the Min ister can ind icate that there will be some opportunity for medical personnel to view the aircraft on a non- operational basis, perhaps before it's put into full service, if there could be a tour of various major Northern communities. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: The air ambulance will tour, once it is delivered, will make a stop in most of the major communiti es that it will serve so that people in the area will have an opportunity to view it and become familiar with the plane and its capability, capacity and so on. That will take place soon after its delivery.

I believe, as well, the honourable member has raised a valuable point, that it is important for people to be aware of what service it actually will serve and what it can do and what it's capacity is. lt has the capacity to hold two stretchers at one time or a stretcher and an incubator at the same time, and will be fully equipped and fully staff ed. These are the kinds of things that I think people will want to be aware of, especially the medical community in those areas. So we will definitely undertake to have it fly to the communities so that they can become aware of the service that will be offe red. MR. S.

ASHTON: Just as a final comment, I note from the appropriation the fact that the air ambulance service has taken a fair amount of commitment in terms of funds, but I just wanted to indicate that, if the feedback that I have received in Thompson is any indication, people feel it's money well worth spent. I am sure you'll find much the same situation, not just in the present com munities which do have an air transportation, but also in some of the new commun ities which are going to be serviced, such as, Swan River and rural areas which are, for the first time, going to be able to take advantage of that service.

HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, we expect that the air ambulance will serve all 45 communiti es in Manitoba; there will be no special restrictions put on its use for emergencies. lt will serve all of Manitoba where 3,200 foot runways are available, and that is 45 communit ies throughout Northern and southern Manitoba, to serve those communitie s and the people in those communities when emergencies arise that require an air ambulance. There have been a number of public meetings that have been held to gain feedback on the service, and generally they have been positive.

There have been some concerns about the effect on ground ambulance, especially on private ground ambulance operators in some areas. Those are being consi dered by the committee at the present time. I should mention that this will be fully recoverable. lt will be operated by the Oepartment of Highways and Transportation, but will be fully recoverable from the Manitoba Health Services Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, my questions are dealing with the radio services and, if anyone wants 814 to continue any questions on the air services, I am prepared to wait if you want to complete. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you. My question's just a short one. How much is this new air ambulance costing us? HON. J. PLOHMAN: The capital cost is $2.7 million, and it will cost about $1 million per year to operate, including about $441 ,000 for the staffi ng and $501 ,000 for other operating expenses. So it's about $1 million a year to operate, and the capital expenditure is $2.7 million. MRS. C.

OLESON: Where will it be based, in Winnipeg? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it will be based in Winnipeg. There was a lot of consideration as to whether it should be based in a Northern point, or perhaps in a community like say Dauphin, for example. MR. H. GRAHAM: How did that come out? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Actually I was very considerate. After considering the staffing needs and the expertise that was required for such a facility service, it was felt that it was best to have it stationed here in Winnipeg and most efficient and cost efficient. That's why the decision was made to station it in Winnipeg. MR. H.

GRAHAM: I would like to turn the attention of the committee to the Radio Services. Mr. Chairman, some time ago I had a constituent who raised a problem with me verbally, I have nothing in writing. He told me that he had attempted to buy an air radio for his airplane. He had written to the company, and they told him that the Manitoba Air Services were the sole distributor In the Province of Manitoba.

Now I can't remember the name of the radio - this happened quite some time ago - so I would ask the Min ister if the air services are, indeed, an agency for a particular radio manufacturer and, if so, I would like to know what their sales have been and the volume of business they have done in that particular field? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, it's interesting. I recall that the member raised this matter with me as Min ister of Government Services a few years ago, or two years, I believe.

We had quite a lengthy and detailed discussion about this particular situation with the letters, and the name and so on of the ind ividual involved, so it was more detail provided by the honourable member. We don't distribute formally as an agency. The Air Radio Division does not act as agency for sale and distribution of these radios to other groups or agencies or to anybody else. They are only for the use of the government. MR. CH AIRMAN: 4.{h) {1) -p ass; 4.(h)(2)- pass; 4.(h)(3)- pass.

Resolution 94: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $12 ,323,200 for Hig hways and Transpor tation, Engineering and

Thurad•J, 11 April, 1985 Technical Services for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1986- pass. We are now starting with Item No. 5.(

a) Salaries; 5.(

b) Other Expenditures; 5.(

c) Rural Transportation Grants for the Mobili ty Disadvantaged unde r the topic Transportation Policy and Research - the Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minis ter could tell us what requests for grants for the Southern Airport Assistance Program have been received and what grants have been turned down, if any, in the past year, and th e funding for the Transportation Grants to the Mobility Disadvantaged. Those are the grants to the towns or municipalities for the Handiv ans, is that correct? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

There are now 22 communities being served or to be served under that program. We're expanding signif icantly every year, and just recently we had an agreement with the Federal Government to purchase 12 additional Handivans for some existing services, as well as some new services to communities that presently do not have the service. We had an agreement that the Federal Government would match the $1 0,000 capital grant that we provide under the Mobility Dis advantaged Transportation Program.

So, with that, we were able to offer $20,000 per community for assistance, which was a tremendous advantage to them because the costs of those Handivans has increased dramatically over the last couple of years ranging up as high as $40,000 for an individual Handivan. So, they were very pleased about that and it was a good example of co-operation between the province and the Federal Government. MR. D. BLAKE: Is there any operating grant money being provided or any being considered? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, there has been built into the program up to 37.5 percent of operating costs per year to a maximum of $20,000.00.

So, that has assisted the communit ies in operating and not having to go to full user recovery for the operation and, of course, they many times find special groups in the community to assist community organizations to help, but that's what we're providing and, of course, we offer that to each community as they come on stream. So, the program, naturally, is expanding each year in terms of the costs to the Provincial Government. MR. D. BLAKE: How about the airport grants? HON. J. PLOHMAN: I somehow lost the question regarding airport . . . MR. D.

BLAKE: Yes, I wonder what grants were assisted to rural or southern . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Oh yes, the southern . . . MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, how many have been received and how many have been turned down, if any? HON. J. PLOHMAN: We have distributed the operating grants each year - $600 per airport, and all of those 815 that had qualified are being serviced. There is a total of $1, 500.00. lt's a rather small program with $600 per airport for operating, but it does assist and seems to be appreciated out there.

In addition to that, we have a $15 ,000 capital appropriation to assist those airport organizations to improve their airstrips and their facilities there. So, some of them are taking advantage of that. We are not refusing any that have been designated under that program that I'm aware of. I understand, Mr. Chairman, that I'll be getting a report very shortly on the latest update on this, but I have not received it in my office as yet. MR. D. BLAKE: Maybe let us have a copy when you get it. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Yes, if the member would like to have some specific information, there is nothing private or confidential about that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dealing with the airport grants, I would like to ask the Minis ter, is there not a policy where there are additional grants to certain airports, and I realize there are only four or five that are designated as regional airports, is there not a policy that Is additional to the $600 for all airports? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, there is not a formal designated program for regional airports.

There was some consideration of th at policy by the former government, it was never implemented formally. So all of the southern airports receiving assistance get $600, with the exception of Swan River which was one which was started under a regional concept but was never part of a formal regional concept policy. So, that particular airport is receiving $1 ,800; all the rest are receiving $600.00. MR. H. GRAHAM: Could the Minister give me an update on the program for the Strathclair Airport? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Excuse me.

I just wanted to add that we are undertaking a study under the subagreements for a regional airport concept but that's just under way, it's not completed. In terms of the Strathclair Airport, we don't have any information on that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: I wonder if the Min ister could give me this information, I don't have it right now.

There was a request a while back for an airstrip at Clear Lake with the usual advantages to the tourist industry, people coming back and forth, and I just wondered if you could find whatever Informa tion, or where that particular situation was now and just give it to me at your . . . HON. J. PLOHMAN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we'll make a note of that. I have never received any formal request. For the Member for Min nedosa, I have not received any requests on that, but it may be In the history of the department and we will look into finding that information for the honourable member.

Thursd•y, 11 April, 1115 MR. D. BLAKE: Mr. Chairman, that's about all the questions I have on that. In reply to the note, I've had sev eral of my colle agues ind icate they wanted to speak under the Driver and Veh icle Licensing section, so we may get hung up there for some time. I don't really know. I don't think there is going to be any motions to change the appropriation coming forward but there could be some detailed questioning on it and it could go on for a bit of time.

Outside of that, under the Highway Traffic and Licence Suspension Appeal Board, that could all be done under the general sect ion but that may take a little time and it may carry us on a bit too late tonight. I think the House Leaders have agreed that the Min ister cannot be here on Monday and I believe they're going to discuss rules and whatnot on tomorrow's business, so we would finish Highways on Tuesday. lt may take us another hour or two. - (Interject ion) - or three or four. So if that's agreeable, the committee could rise, it's agreeable with us, Mr. Chairman, on this side. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to every body? MR. D. BLAKE: Transportation Policy and Research, we haven't passed it. MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't? Okay. A MEMBER: Hold it. MR. CHAIRMAN: We will hold it. Committee rise. SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee come to order. We are considering Item 2.(

e) Hearing Conservation. The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On page 32 of the Annual Report, I notice that at the bottom of the page, it says that the long-range plans call for Manitoba Health to provide audiology services to all suburban and Winnipeg school divisions and for the Child Guidance Clinic to provide a similar service specifically to Winnip eg School Division No. I. I am wondering, are these services of audiologists available to all school divisions, and are all school divisions now serviced by an audiologist. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Over the years, these centres were set out in all the different regions in the rural outside of Winnipeg. That's all set up now and it includes high risk register for detecting hearing imp aired in babies, pre-school and school kids in the rural area. In the city, we started with the Winnipeg School Division No. I. This is deliv ered at our request, we're paying for this service through the Child Guidance Clinic. Besides that, we are working with the hospitals starting setting up some canters.

There's one at Seven Oaks; there's one at Victoria and there's one at Deer Lodge and this year we'll set one up at Concordia. I think there'll be only one or two left and that service is given also. 816 MR. A. BROWN: So if I understand that correctly, then these services are available right across Manitoba. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( e)( 1)-pass; 2.(e)(2)- pass; 2(e)(3)-pass; 2.(

f) Geronto logy. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, before we rea lly get started on this sect ion, I want to just read back and quote what the Minis ter gave me back Tuesday, March 12th. The Minis ter ind icated I want - he's refe rring to myself as health critic - I want to say that I expect him to keep me honest and I also want to say to him that I don't intend to give any edge either. When he makes statements, I expect him to be able to back them up. Mr.

Chairman, Monday night and again on Tuesday night, I asked the Min ister for details about his report "Manitoba and Medicare" which he said wasn't ready, wasn't finished, hadn't seen it, etc., etc. I just want to indicate to the Minis ter that I've got a copy of his report and that if I'm to keep him honest when I ask him questions, I hope that I don't have to do things like this and bring in a report that he said isn't completed and isn't ready yet . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Fair enough, Mr. Chairman.

I had no intention of making a big thing out of this but our office of the Research and Planning has been broken into on a number of occasions. One time it was reported to police about six years ago. There was a report, I don't know If it's the one, my friend is showing a report that I haven 't seen that was referred to yesterday of 245 pages. I think a few pages were added just lately , just these last few days. That was going through the correction for any mistakes before it was presented to me. I said in this House two days ago that I had the resume - I have it of that - that it wasn't complete.

I said that Dr. Evans will be making a pres entation to the Cabinet in a couple of weeks or so, or next week, and that's exactly what is happening. That report, I have never seen it before, the report that Is being shown, I don't know where my honourable friend got it. I know that our place was broken In and that one report was taken out. They are all numb ered. lt wouldn't be a bad idea to give me the numb er on that report ; I might be able to check. So I welcome my honourable friend keeping me honest. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the report isn't numb ered . lt wasn't obtained by being broken into if that is the accusation he is making of me. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I am saying there is one report missing and I have never seen that report. That's what I'm saying. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I think the Mini ster is once again caught and he didn't talk anything about a resume or anything the other night. He said the report wasn't ready. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The draft. I mentioned a draft of the report.

Thurad8y, 11 April, 1985 MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to pursue it any further because the Min ister has been caught a little bit short and that's the kind of thing we want to try to avoid in these Estimates. When I bring a matter up with him, I intend to be well enough founded in it and have enough information on the record that what I am asking about is not frivolous, but I am serious about the questions I pose to him and I expect him, as he says, to be honest, to keep him honest. HON. L. DESJAADINS: I did give you the answer. MA. D. ORCHARD: Yes, that's right, you did.

But I had to table the report before you would give me the answer. HON. L. DESJAADINS: That's why I told you the same answer. MA. D. ORCHARD: You did. Tough. Well, Mr. Chairman, the Min ister can sort of . . . HON. L. DESJAADINS: That report was stolen . MA. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. Order please. The Min ister of Culture on a point of order. HON. E. KOSTYAA: Yes, the member made mention of a report he tabled. I would ask to see a copy of that report that was tabled. MA. CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for Pembina like to table his report? MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I didn't table any report. HON. L.

DESJAADINS: You just said you tabled the report. MA. D. ORCHARD: I did not table any report, Mr. Chairman. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. Order please. MA. D. ORCHARD: No, I am not going to table it. I Intend to read it to find out what you are going to do to the health system. That's what I am going to do; I am going to read the report. I suggest the Mini ster might read it when he gets it. HON. L. DESJAADINS: I will. MA. D. ORCHARD: Good. Then we will talk about it at that point in time. HON. L. DESJAADINS: But you won't table it? MA. D.

ORCHARD: No, I intend to read the report I have. MA. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. Order please. 817 The committee cannot proceed in such a disorganized manner . I would ask the members to wait until recognized by the Chair and I would ask them not to interrupt each other. There will be plenty of time to settle this issue In an orderly fashion. The Mini ster of Health. HON. L. DESJAADINS: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend asked me a question; I gave him exactly the correct answer.

He made the statement that he tabled a report; he is reading from that report. lt's a report that I don't have, that is not finished, that hasn't been given to me yet, and I ask him to table the report. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I did not read from any report and the Mini ster kn ows that. He's been caught in his own glue here. I have no intention of tabling a report I have not quoted from. I intend to read the report to keep this Minister honest as he said he expected on the 12 th of April, and that's what I intend to do. HON. L. DESJAADINS: Mr.

Chairman, it's obvious what kind of Estimate debate we're going to have. I have tried, to the best of my knowledge and ability, to give all the information, to be as flexible as possible to my honourable friend. lt's been petty stuff that he's been trying, even in the way, not so much today, other days we were questioned one bit at a time, not so much to get information, but to trap people. Mr. Chairman, the point is that I made the statement that I didn't have that report, it wasn't finalized; that I knew some of the things that were in it - I think the word that I used was draft, the first draft.

That report will be presented by Dr. Evans to the Cabinet. lt will be released then. I even said that I would give him a copy of the report If the member likes, although it's an internal document. I don't know what else I can do to co-operate. lt seems obvious that is not the intention. That document, Mr. Chairman, is a working document that has been prepared for facts. I'm not making any accusations, I'm saying it was released to the press. I'm saying toda y, I had no intention of making a big thing out of this, that our place was broken In a few weeks ago.

There was a copy of the report that has been stolen from the office of the director. None of our people has that report yet; I haven't got that report. lt was all at the Planning who were doing the last finishing mark on this. The num ber of pages were quoted, the newspaper and some of these pages were added just lately. Some charts and all that to make I think it was 245 pages.

I don't mind co-operating at all, I intend to co-operate; but co-operation is something that has to be done by both parties. it's obvious that my honourable friend is just trying to trip people. not trying to get information or discuss in an intelligent manner. There's not much I can do about it. The accusation has backfired on him; every single one has backfired so far, but if he doesn't want to accept the facts or the answers" there's not much we can do about it. MA. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I really feel sorry for the Min ister, that he considers some of these Issues

Thurad•y , 11 April, 1915 that we are bringing up are petty, and that we're trying to trip him up, poor dear soul. There is no information being sought here tonight that is invaluable information in the last two or three days; and if the Mi nister knew more about his department then, you know, he wouldn't have to worry about being tripped up, as he calls it, and little traps laid for the poor dear soul. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's petty. MR. D. ORCHARD: Now the Min ister says it's petty. We ll, isn't that terri ble that the Min ister is so disappointed now.

If you don't like the rules of the game, I didn't make them. We 're simply debating Estimates and enquiring of you questions, and I expect you to live up to what you said in the Throne Speech that you were going to be honest; that's all. That's all I ask is that you be honest . And when you're not honest, I'm going to point it out to you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. Order please. Are the mem bers ready to proceed? Are you ready? Is the committee ready to proceed? Item 2.(

f) Gerontology: 2.(f)( 1) Salaries - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister indicate in Gerontology, his staff sheeting shows an Increase of one in terms of staff, are all the staff positions filled? And if they'r e all filled, are any filled on an acting basis? HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt's a new term position for the Winni peg reg ion, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: And are all the positions filled, and are any of them filled with acting positions? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That one is in the budget for this year, this last position that I referred to. That has not been filled.

The others are all permanent positions. MR. D. ORCHARD: In terms of - who's the Director of this Gerontology section, if I'm using the right terminology? HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt's Dr. Betty Havens. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, there is a sizable Increase in the Other Expenditur es. Could the Min ister give an indication as to what the Geronto logy

section intends to do that would require almost a doubling of the Other Expenditures? HON. L. DESJARDINS: it's In the support services to seniors, and expe nditur es incr ease, as other expenditur es increase, as the result of new initiatives approved by Cabinet for supporting frail and at-risk seniors In their efforts at maintaining their independence. lt was what we called at one time - what is it? Now I don't remember the original. We called it Enriched Senior Citizens' Housing and that was changed, as I explained last year, to Enriched Services.

That is, we're slowly starting Into this to try to help the people maintain their independence and stay at home, stay out of institutions. MR. D. ORCHARD: So then what does the funding do in Enriched Senior Citizens' Housing? Does it provide startup grants? What does it do to establish programming in Enriched Seniors' Housing? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Funds totalling 359,500 will be dir ected toward the development of expanded commu nity-based support services for senior citizens.

The purpose of the support services to seniors' programs is to assist the elderly to continue to maintain independent living in their own home. All of the majority of seniors are able to take care of the mselves independentl y. There are a num ber of seniors who require some help to maintain their independence. 818 The expansion of the program within this department involves the addition of one new staff position, funds to provide dir ect service subsidies for volunt eer services, and the establishment of commun ity reso urce councils to co-ordinate communi ty-based services.

The range of services provided within this program is substantial. They include escort, handyman, meal services, social and recr eational activities, transportation services, telephone reassurances, and friendly visiting services to name only a few. Community-based support services not only enhance independent living for seniors, but also reduce the need for more costly service !!UCh as home care and personal care placement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Wolsele y. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Ye s, I would like to ask the Minis ter if the new day care program at Lion's Place falls into this categor y. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: That's at the Health Services Commission. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, could the Mini ster indicate what the travel budget for Gerontology is for this coming year? · HON. L. DE.SJARDINS: I never heard that we have a travel budg et as such for any department. lt's In Other Expenditures, and that's part of different expenses needed. I don't have a set budget just for travel ling. it's approxima tely 3,000 or so. MR. D. ORCHARD: If I recall cor rectly from our discussion back In the Research and Planning group, was not one of the 16 planning groups to do With aging?

When we went back to the Research and Planning group, was not one of the 16 planning subcomm ittees to do with aging? - (I nterjection) - yes. Do they liaise with this group and use this group as a resource, as well as presumably other outside resources? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ye s, and I'm pleased the mem ber asked me the question. lt gives me the occasion to inform the comm ittees that the \.

Thursday, 11 April, 1915 gerontologist is not just the gerontologist of the department - it's the provincial gerontologist. We happen to be the lead department on that, and liaison officers have been set up in all departments for any discussion or anything to do with the seniors. it's a very small staff, as you see, th ree- and there'll be a fourth one. There's a provincial gerontologist, a secretary and a support service co-ordinator . The gerontologist and the staff are working with the Attorney-General re the abuse for the seniors and with Community Services and other departments.

So there is liaison constantly with different departments, and there is an interdepartmental committee of staff chaired by the provincial gerontologist working on these programs also. MR. D. ORCHARD: The Min ister said, regional gerontologist. He meant, the provincial gerontologist, chaired by the provincial gerontologist. Now, Mr.

Chairman, in co-ordinating the provincial departmental efforts on presumably provision of services through the various departments and, as he mentioned with the A-G's department, potentially preventing abuse problems, etc., etc., is there coming out of that an ability for, say, a senior citizens' single num ber that they can call in government for services? Does that exist? Did I see a press release on that awhile back for an 800 num ber in the government to provide tie-in with the other departments? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I should say also that the gerontologist, besides that, is working on the Council on Aging that was started by the previous Min ister. lt was expanded to 15 and has been changed to an advisory committee to the provincial gerontologist, who does a lot of the work also. One of the things that they started about that time that was finished three years ago or so is a book of information that is mailed to every person 60 and over in the province giving all the phone numbers and so on, you know, anything that might be helpful to a senior.

I don't think there is one phone number that can get all the information, but the book will. I suppose if they phone the department, the department would refer to the book, or if they phone the office of the gerontologist, if somebody is available that would be done, but the book is sent to every person over 60 and the Council on Aging group liaise between the group back and forth to bring the inf ormation and also to inform the seniors of what is available. There is a also a society of seniors that is working very closely with th e gerontologist. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f )(1) - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A.

BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was wondering whether the Min ister could tell us what new programs have been implemented towards the senior citizens in this item. For ins tance, I noticed that communi ty organizations are mentioned and I would like to know how are the community organizations involved. Are any new programs being put forward and are many communit ies within the province taking advance of new programs that are there? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: This is what the advisory commit tee has said, what I just finished saying, but I 819 can tell you I think my honourable friend is referring to the Support Services to Seniors as the one that he would like to know about. lt is a program aimed at supporting frail and at-risk seniors in their efforts at maintaining their independence in community living status. Support Services is defined as a range of types and intensity of services in the basic living category, not the care services.

Support Services may include meals and/or assistance in all or part of the task involved in meal preparation, transportation, escort, Handi-van, meaningful social and recreational activities, telephone reassurance, friendly visiting. In other words, all the programs that could permit the seniors, the well elderly, let's say, to remain at home, especially those who are not a senior citizen home, but are living in their home without having to have recourse to living in a personal care home, who might otherwise have to do that, or that certainly would need home care or more home care than they are receiving.

There are also people, some of our regional staff years, that have been working with us on that, and there have been five additional: one in Westman, one in Eastman, lnterlake, Central and in Parkland. They are working with the seniors also, beefing up the regional staff. MR. A. BROWN: Well, this was going to be my next question.

When you need a co-ordina tor, I suppose, or who is handling this particular type of program in each commu nity, and it seems to me in order for this to be an effective community you would possibly need a co ordinator or somebody who would be spearheaded in this particular type of program in each major community that you have within the province. I wonder if the Mini ster could give me some information as to just exactly how this program is handled in the various communities.

I know that in Winkler there is somebody that looks after this, but I am just wondering in how many commun ities do we have people that are co-ordinating activities and this type of thing. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Well, of course, there are different programs, but most of the programs are taken care of by volunteers and our staff does the co ordinating and is responsible for approving the programs that we might fund. lt is most often worked through volunteers; we just do the co-ordinat ing.

We couldn't begin to have staff for all these programs in all of Manitoba. lt's just co-ord inating and assisting people with professio nal counselling and things like that to the people that are delivering those services. There are all kinds of services. lt might be Meals on Wheels, it might be some form of recreation for the elderly and it could be telephone messages, it could be the buddy system, it could be pretty well anything. MR. A.

BROWN: Is the public health nurse the person that is ultimately responsible for carrying out this particular program to see that there are volunteers available to see that Meals on Wheels are operating and that you have recreational activities and things of that nature? Is it the public health nurse that is ultimately responsible or who organizes these things so that you do have your volunteer groups?

, Thursday, 11 April. 1985 HON. L. DESJARDINS: I just finis hed answering that. lt's not the public health nurse, no; it is the specialist who co-ordinates the program. Usually these programs in most Instances will be organized or initiated at the regional level, the community level, and the regional staff will help co-ordinate it. MR. A. BROWN: Have any new programs become available within the last year or has any new policy been Im plemented in the last year towards this particular item in the Estimates? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Not other than I just finished saying. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(f)(1)-pass; 2.(f)(2)-pass. 2.(g)

(1) Continuing Care: Salaries - the Mem ber for Pemblna. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I notice there Is no staff changes for this section. Are all the positions filled and are any filled on an acting basis? HON. L. DESJARDINS: These eight positions are filled and they are filled on a permanent basis. While I am on my feet, I would like to announce that, of course, an additional 1.7 million will be provided to sup port the expansion of this Cont inuin g Care Program throughout the province for this year.

The expansion will greatly enhanc e the effectiveness of the office of continuing care and the co-ordination of home care services throughout the province and the assess ment for placement in personal care homes. The Home Care Program plays an ess ential

part in helping individuals maintain them selves in their own home and avoiding the need for institutional care. In 1984-85, 21, 176 persons in Manitoba received home care services. MR. D. ORCHARD: How many was that? HON. L. DESJARDINS: 21,176. During 1984, 10,22 1 persons were admitted to the Home Care Program. Without the availability of this program, 20 percent would have required personal care home placement. Now, 44 percent would have been admitted to or remained in hospital and 36 percent would have been in a communi ty without appropriate support.

The Home Care Program expansion would also provide for an improved wage and benefit package for home care providers. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I have a series of questions on home care. The Mi nister may not have these figures tonight, but does he have a range of support per client, per per son? In other words, let's pick a figure and say $10 a week up to a maximum of $100 a week, a range of costs, what an average cost of providing home care per person would be basis the whole program.

Could the Min ister indicate what the salary range is of the providers of home care and on what basis the government is setting their salary schedules? And, second ly, I would assume that those people who are home care providers are basically similar to a contract employee. They certainly wouldn't be

part 820 of the staff subject to the benefits, etc., etc., that other civil servants would enjoy working for the Provincial Govern ment. I will leave it at those few questions right now. HON. L. DESJARDINS: The staff will be able to find the exact details on that.

I think I mentioned already one of the guides anyway that it is felt that unless there is some circumstance such as people have no place In a personal care home and so on and if it's an emergenc y, well there is not much you can do, but normally the rule is to keep people on home care at a cost less or certainly not more than it would cost to keep these people in a personal care home. That is one of the rules. The staff Is trying to find the information. Now, the staff, I should n't say they are volunteers, but they are people that might be working part time and so on, they are not organized.

I don't think there Is ... I have some information now. In 1982-83, the total numb er of people served on home care was 19,716, for an average of $822.94; in 1983-84, it was 20,392 people served for a yearly average cost per person of $895.03; and in 1984-85, there were 21,380 for an average cost per person of $9 17.89. These people are on hourly rates, they are not full time people, and the range will go anywhere from $4.75 to $8.00, depending on the type of worker. This Is one of the reasons why there is an increase this year to try to improve that a bit.

I don't think that has been impr oved for a while, but they are all casual workers working on hourly rates. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, Is it possible from information that the department has to establish that median range or the high-low range in costs per client? Is that information that's readily available? I don't want to ... HON. L DESJARDINS: What we have to do is review the thing and look at the highest cost and the lowest. I'm sure the member doesn't expect them, how much for each. We have the average. I think you want the lowest one and the highest one?

Is that what you're saying, the most money sl>ent on one person for home care and the least money? See, it could be an hour or so, I guess. lt's very difficult to tell. MR. D. ORCHARD: That Is the information I would like to have. it's not information that Is essential if it's going to re quire a great amount of work to dig out. Then it's not that important. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, to the membe r, I'm told that this has all been placed in com'puter. We'll have it next year. We don't have it this year. Now we could find it for my honourable friend.

We can scrutinize the records and, If it's the lowest one - I would Imagine the lowest one would be just a question of hours. lt's not going to tell you too much, because it could be somebody that's on for an hour, then for some reason or other is no longer on home care. But we can do that if you want, if we try to find the lowest money spent on one person and the highest. The average,

Thursdey, 11 April, 1915 you already have, but that means we'll have to search the record of all these 21 ,000 people. MR. D. ORCHARD: No, I don't need to have that question answered. I thought that would be part of the statistical base that we might be maintaining to give you an idea of where your high and low range are, because you're going to eventually at some point in time make a decision that it's too expensive to keep a person on home care, and you're going to handle them for presumably personal care home. That's why I was wanting to know the ranges.

If they're not readily available, it's not information that is essential you dig up. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think I've mentioned that, that the guidelines have been that we would not keep somebody out of an institution at a cost higher than it would cost us to place them In an institution normal ly. In some cases, and I mentio ned a case yesterday, there have been some exceptions done or we've bent the rules and we've practically broken the rules in some instances, but that is the guideline. I don't say it's the final thing.

Of course, if let's say there is an emergency toda y, something happens and we're told and there are no beds anywhere, acute beds or personal care beds, then if we have to have somebody around the clock and so on, even the cost of it, it would be for a short time. lt would be a real effort to find a bed. But in the meantime, well then we won't look at cost in that time because there's no choice. MR. D. ORCHARD: Who does the assessment as to how much home care an individual should receive? Is that the public health nurse? What level of departmental staff determines that? HON.

L DESJARDINS: The case co-ordinator of the regional group working together with staff, different staff - it could be the public health nurse and so on - to find out not only how much but the type of assistance that person needs. Then there's an evaluation. You know, they're not placed on that forever and a day. Those are checked periodically. That is also an area where we try to boost to have the staff, because it's all right to have the funds and that to put people on home care, but they must be assessed and at times the staff was overworked. That's why they were behind on that.

So we're trying to beef up the staff a bit that will be able to handle these people or assess these people a little sooner. MR. D. ORCHARD: Then presumably it's the same individual who would make a reassessment because, if I unde rstand th e workings of the program , an individual can not only go on the Home Care Program but, If their needs decrease, they can be taken off the Home Care Program.

Does the Min ister have available a number figure for people who have been removed from the Home Care Assistance Program not by going to a personal care home but removed because they've improved sufficiently or whatever the criteria are so that they no longer were deemed to need the Home Care Assistance? 821 HON. L. DESJARDINS: I think I could give him this. This inf ormation might help: the admissions to Home Care in 1983, 9,733; in 19 84, 10,225. Now the discharge for home care was the question, I believe, was 9,419 in 1983, and 9,5 17 in 1984.

Total numbers receiving home care service during the year, in 1983, was 20,379; in 1984, 21, 225. it's true. Home care does not necessa rily mean that somebody is condemned to home care for the rest of their lives.

I mean, the home care is there for different reasons. lt might be somebody with the early dis charge now, it might be somebody that will have home care for a couple of weeks or so that will be dis charged after delivering a baby or so; could be discharged to the home and will have some home care; could be people that are sick temporarily and going through the rehabilitation that then will be fully rehabilitated. So these things change. That's true. There are dif ferent needs. lt might Inc rease In some cases. In many cases, it could decrease also. lt might be a temporary help they need. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Of the number of discharges from home care, is it fair to assume that some of those could be people who got placed in a personal care home and people who just were taken off the program because their needs were met and no further assistance is required? I presume also, would there be some people who are no longer with us? HON. L. DESJARDINS: . . . to see what the members want. I think my best bet is to give you all the information. This way, I won't have to give you this piecemeal. lt might be easier.

On the numb er admitted to th e program, th e alternative for them, had home care not been available would have been personal care home placement, ln'83, 17 percent, in'84, 25 percent; remain in hospital, 46 percent in'8 3, 44 percent in' 84; remain at home but without appropriate care, 37 percent ln'83, 36 percent in'84.

Now the number disch arged from the program, I think that's what - the reason for discha rge was: placed into personal care homes or admitted to hospital, in'83, 23 percent, in'84, 24 percent; improved and no longer needing home care, 39 percent both years; improved and able to manage home care, 16 percent in'8 3, 15 percent in'84; deceased, 17 percent both years; and others, 5 percent for both. MR. D. ORCHARD: What was the third one again? What was the third-last category? HON. L. DESJARDIN:l: Improved and able to manage home care? MR. D. ORCHARD: Home care? Oh, okay. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Yes. 16 percent and 15 percent. Caseload - I may as well give you this - the caseload statistics, monthly caseload by age breakdown as of December 31s t � and I'll give you th e four years,'81,' 82,'83 and'84 in that order - 0- 18 years old, 342, 268, 265, 280; 19-64, 2,059, 2,047, 2, 135, 2,506; 65 and over, 8, 122, 8,331, 8,600, 9,865; the total, 10,523, 10,646, 11 ,000, 12,65 1.

Thuraday, 11 April, 1985 No w the average monthly numb er of persons receiving selected services: nursing services - that is R.N. or VON - 1983, 3,900; in'84, 3,826. Auxiliary services, LPN, home care attendant, 2,269 . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. HON. L. DESJARDINS: 2,541; Community Therapy Service 341, 348; Homemaking Services Community and VON $6,790, $7,229.

If you want, I can give you average monthly numbers of person, homemakers, registered nurses, that's only for'83 and'84, homemakers, 2,020, 2, 17 8; registered nurses 219, 251; LPNs 107, 120; home care attendants 223, 357; therapists 34, 34; volunteers estimated 1,200. MR. D. ORCHARD: I may have the name wrong, but the home care attendants, I think was one of the categories, that would be basically, I don't know what other term to use, but your average citizen in the community that would go in and work with . . . Under Other Expenditures, there's a fairly substantive increase this year over last year.

What's causing the increases, there's some special direction in advertising or what's the nature of the increase? HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt's $1 49,000 for in itiative for computer assisted information system including client profile, resource base, and serving delivery information for streamlining operational process to get the kind of information that you requested earlier that I said we'd have next year, streamlining the admin istration and the records. MR. D. ORCHARD: Is this computer installation - that 1 presume, is going in this year?

Budgeted to go in this year? - (In terjection)- Now will this system be hooked up with MDS, Manitoba Data Services or is this a free standing system? HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt's free standing, Mr. Chairman. MR. D. ORCHARD: Will there be a tendering process to establish who supplies the system, like you're talking, probably a relatively unique system, or has a decision been already made on the purchase? HON. L. DESJARDINS: If it's that kind of purchase, we go through the Government Services, they'll order it for us. So they would have their tenders and so on the way they usually do with that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Okay.

But the department will probably give to Government Services the kind of equipment that they wish and the specifications you wish. Now does this go back to Adminis tration and Financial Services? Was that where the computer resource people work? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The request that would go to Government Services would come from there. MR. D. ORCHARD: Have there been any decisions made on this computer set-up or are you in the process of putting together a call for proposal? 822 HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, not yet. MR. D.

ORCHARD: The purchase method, I'm trying to think back into my mind when we did this, when the Highways Department set up an inventory control program. I think we sent out calls for proposal or something along that line. Is that the method that will be used here to determine who has the most suitable equipment and the most economic purchase? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The government works through the Manitoba Data Service, who have a list of things, and we have a list of things that are approved within. If that is approved, they will get it for us. They get the proper discount and so on through them.

They ask for tenders and so on. I would imagine they do, but that is not done through our department. We can give them a list of the things we want and if that is approved, it has to be a part of the list that is approved and they would get it for us. MR. D. ORCHARD: This is not the proper place to be discussing this then. But do I understand that the variety of equipment that can be supplied is a predetermined list put together by Manitoba Data Services in conjunction with presumably, Government Services? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Right. MR. D. ORCHARD: What external agencies are funded under this appropriation? HON.

L. DESJARDINS: I'll give you the groups, and if you want the amount, I'll have to get that. There's Meals on Wheels of Winnipeg, Youville Foundation Inc., that's not the Youville Clinic, Youville Foundation. Then there's Independent Living Resource Centre and Ten Ten Sinclair Avenue. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: At the committee meeting in Room 255, the ruling of the chair has been challenged and a formal request for a formal vote has been made, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. Order please. You have heard the report.

Shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? A COUNTED VOTEwas taken, the result being as follows: Yeas, 22; Nays, 16. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare the motion carried. The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to address the committee in respect to the Min ister of Health's Estimates. I would like to indi cate that I haven't been here during the entire length of the Mini ster's Estimates and I regret that I wasn't here during the course of the few min utes prior to my arriving, but I understand that during the course of the debate there

Thursd•y, 11 April, 1115 was reference by the Honourable Member for Pembina to a document . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. We were considering Item 2.(

g) Continuing Care when the vote interrupted the proceedings. I would imagine, if it is the will of the Min ister to revert to that item that we would do so. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, we want to talk to that item. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Min ister of Labour have a point of order? HON. A. MACKLING: No, I am talking to the item. I am saying, Mr. Chairman, during . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. HON. A. MACKLING: In respect to the debate on this item ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The item is .Continuing Care. HON. A. MACKLING: In respect to the debate on this Item, and other items that have preceded it.

The Honourable Member for Pembina has been referring to a planning document that apparently is a stolen document. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Member for Pembina on a point of order. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I am surprised the Minister hasn't risen on a point of order reminding the errant member that we are going line -by-line in the Estimates right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. We are on Item 2.(

g) Continuing Care. I would advise the Min ister of Labour of our Rule 64(2), "Speeches in a Comm ittee of the Whole House must be strictly relevant to the item or clause under discussion." Item 2.(g) - The Min ister of Labour. HON. A. MACK LING : In respect to the issue of Continuing Care, the Honourable Member for Pembina has been referencing, in respect to a number of items, and I assume that he will reference in this item a document which I understand he has offered to table, but has not tabled. I am also given to understand, Mr.

Chairman, that the Mi nister of Health Indicates that there was a planning document that was stolen, and I would like the Honourable Member for Pembina to table the document that he's been referring to so that the Honourable Min ister of Health can verify whether or not this has any relationship to the document that was stolen. CHAIRMAN'S RULING MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. I believe that it may, perhaps, be useful to settle this matter with a ruling from the Chair, and I would note that Beauchesne does not give any specific necessity for a private member 823 to table documents referred to.

Erskine May also says, and I am quoting from Page 433, these references go back quite a ways, but I will read it as it says: "On the 18th of May, 1865 the Attorney-General, on being asked by Mr. Ferrand if he would lay upon the table a written statement and a letter to which he had referred on a previous day in answering a question relative to the Leeds Bankruptcy Court replied that he had made a statement to the House upon his own responsibil ity, and the documents he had referred to; being private, he could not lay them upon the table.

Lord Robert Cecll contended that the papers having been cited should be produced, but the Speaker declared that this rule applied to public documents only. " The document referred to is not a public document, it has not been released for public consumption. Order please. HON. A. MACKLING: On a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. I can find no necessity in our Rules, either our Rules of the Blue Book, either Beauchesne or Erskine May that would require the Member for Pembina to table the document which he has referred to.

He has not quoted from it; he has referred to it; he has waved a document, no one kno ws what it Is, it purports to be a document, but he has not quoted from it. There is, therefore, no necessity for the member to table that document. Regardless of the fact that he has stated that he has tabled it, he has not tabled it, and it may not be required to be tabled. Item 2.(

g) Continuing Care. The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minis ter was reading off, just when everybody was coming in, the agencies that were funded under the External Agencies line and I missed some of them. Could the Minister repeat the list, please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Mini ster of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Meals on Wheels of Winnipeg - these are the external agencies - Youvilie Foundation, and I want to point out that that is not the clinic we were talking about this afte rnoon, the Youville Foundation - the Grey Nuns call everything Youville - The Independent Living Resource Centre; Ten Ten Sinciair Avenue. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, under Ten Ten Sinclair Avenue, the funding there. That surely can't be, with the budget at $647,000 in total, under External Agencies, that can't be the budget funding entirely for Ten Ten Sinclair, is it? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Well, this year we're still negotiating. MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes, but last year. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I'll give you last year, and last year was $543,700, the total, and you see there's an

Thurad8J1 11 April, 1985 increase this year. In dependent Living Resource Centre was $20,000; Meals on Wheels of Winni peg, $43,300; Youville Foundation, $65,400 and Ten Ten Sinclair was $41 5,000, so it was the biggest share. MR. D. ORCHARD: Just let me get Ten Ten Sinclair straight In my mind. You've got a block grant that goes to Ten Ten Sinclair, are there similar per diems as well paid for patients as they're there, or does that represent the entire funding for them? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, this is for care only.

Of course, those who need it would have income security to pay for their rental as they normally would. This is for their care. In other words, that's Fokus I, 11 and Ill. it's home care working together, anything extra, but they could still qualify for social security, those who qualify for it, to pay for the rent besides that. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Then is Ten Ten Sinclair at maximum occupany, if that's the right terminology used? Is it being utilized fully right now? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: it's not an institution that we are involved with. lt Is a group of people who live together, who help each other, who need some of the same help, and they're entitled to home care like everybody else and that is their home care, let's say. lt Is not institutional living as such. lt is, like If they rented a place, an apartment and so on, and they're working together. it's a program that they developed together, and we are paying that, our department -well, it's a program, of course - but, in lieu of home care, and these people, besides that, If they're on social security, If they qualify for that, they would get that also to help pay for the rental of the place.

Now, I don't know. We're only dealing with Fokus I, 11 and Ill and I don't know what facility is left In that. lt's not an Institution that we run. We just take care of those patients. lt is a program within that Ten Ten Slnclair. I think the Community Services might, I'm not sure. I don't want to start passing the buck, and she's not listening anyway, but she might know more than I know about it. MR. D. ORCHARD: All I was attempting to do is determine from the basis of your Budget if you expect the occupancy to be . . . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Not Ten Ten Sinc lair, then in Fokus I, 11 and Ill. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, a number of calls have been coming forward from time to time in which children who are looking after their parents require some remuneration for this and I know that this is a policy of the government. I'm not necessarily arguing with that policy either. But sometimes this creates quite a problem, that a child looks after a parent, cannot take employment because it's taking just about full time to look after the parent, and yet that child can receive no remuneration for looking after the parent, and sometimes this creates a problem.

I would just like to mention one ins tance which came to mind about three months ago when a lady phoned and she had a small Income herself, about $15 0 a month. Outside of that, they had to live on her mother's old age pension, it was the only income that they had. She had to give up her job in order to look after her mother. The hospital wouldn't accept her mother in there and then she had been panelled for the personal care home, yet there was no space in the personal care home. So, in instances such as these, I feel that maybe we should take a look and maybe make a few exceptions somewhere along the line.

I don't know if we really need to have such a hard and fast rule as what we have at the present time, because there are certain circumstances where you run into real difficulty and where it really is going to cost the government an awful lot of less money, if we just give a little bit of assistance, keep that person and the mother at home and have the daughter or child looking after that particular person.

I cannot help but think that especially in remote areas, like in the North, where very often there are no other alternative situations, that we may have to, from time to time, make exceptions. 824 I would just like to hear the Minister's comments on this, whether this has been taken into consideration, whether it will be taken into consideration. it's a problem that is there. it's not a huge problem and I can see where this could be abused, but there are certain circumstances where I think that it would warrant for the Minis ter, If possible, to make an exception. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly recognize the value of the concern of my honourable friend. I must admit that I'm very very surprised that he would make this suggestion. I would expect this to come from somebody from this side. The situation Is at certain times exactly how the member pictured it, but I think we're dreaming If we think we can start making exceptions. The exception soon becomes the rule. lt's some thing that had been looked at. it's something that some people would advocate. I would hope that we'll be very very careful in doing that.

Do you remember that at times we are told that things are not the way they were before, the people are not accepting the responsibility. In the old days everybody had an old person with them. They were taking care of that. Now there's the rat race and everybody's working and they can't do that. All of a sudden, we're going to start paying the few - well compared to the old days - people family that are taking care of which it used to be a responsi bility. If we're going to have to start paying all that, we're treading on pretty dangerous ground.

I know that the member is right, that at times a few dol lars migh t help. That has been under consid .eration for a while and I would say that it still is. lt would be going in the same thing as some kind of a trial basis. We're looking very seriously at working with the group, with the handicapped, for instance, and saying to them, well, here's a certain amount of money to care of you. Ins tead of us providing the service, you will just have the money that we would normally spend here because they feel they know better what they need, what they want for them.

In that case, they could probably do something like that.

Thuraday, 11 April, 1115 So, I guess, this might be the start of something and somebody might come in with some idea that we'll say, fine. But the thing is that we're afraid of abuse and we're afraid the exception would become the rule and it would be very costly. Again, that's what I say, that certainly s

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-25b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 25b.pdf
Language	en
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