' Volume 1 ., I J PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, June 1, 1972 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 19

June 1, 1972, Tape 43fi, Page l ~- apb The House met at 3:00 p.r. ~'r. Speaker in the Chair. Order! I wou}d J.fr.e rn m::lcome to this honournble P.nuse todny, two p::roups of students. Forty-five ntm!cn.ts froni pro.des V to VIII of St. Alban 1 s Inte;:rated !'lcnentrr:'.:"v 5:dwo1 ~ rooseberrv f'ove. ,,,J th their teachers in charge, S.7L!werv and lLGrnndy. Also. seventy girls from St. P,,t's, rrnde VIII, St. Jchn 1s,with their teachers, ~1rs. Vcnnev and Bi.rd.

He trust that your v:ls'J.t here is I:',ost inforv.ntive and rnost enjoyable and indeed we welcome any other visitors who ;nip.:ht be in the galleries today as well. Mr. Spcn1:er, before presenting petitions I would like to make an announcement on he.half of the fOVcrnnent in connection with the Federal - Provincial Employmcrt Loans Progrnrrxie. I had a telex yesterday from the 'Minister of Finance of Canada, the hon. Pr.

Turner,and the telex says, ''in recent weeks the Federal f'.overnment has received numbrous reauests for an extension of the forgiveness feature of the Federal - -'rovincinl Employnent Loans Proy2:ramme. These reouests have been mnde hecnuse pro;ects have be.en delayed. by procedural nrohleos, labour difficulties anrl unusually adverse wenther c.ornlit1ons, with the result thnt f!OVernments, particularlv at the munic1.pal level will be forced to carry a large and unanticipated debt load.

With this situation i:n view, notwithstanding that the purpose of this particular feoture of the -programme was to stimulate ewployment during the winter months, I am pleased to inform you that the government has decided to mPct these requests. Specifically. the govern.rrient1' (that is the Government of Canada) r~is ready to ~rant an extension to June 30, 1972 of the deadline for incurring forgiveness of seventy five percent of direct, on site labour costs. All provincial projectR will be eligible for the extension.

This extension will also be available to nny municipality which lodges with its provincial government an application for such extension, supported by a statement outlining 1312

June 1, 1972. Tape 436. Page 2 -- npb reasons for dclny in nffec.tinp satisfactory pror-rcss by the orip:inal May 31, date. I trust that we cnn count upon your co-operation in receivinv. and approvinr applications from your municipnlities for this extended forp:iveness perfo<l and in advising the Federal f0vernmcnt of such applications and approvals ns auici-:.ly as possible.. If this amended arrnrn1ement is acceptahle to you, could you please advise rec promptly.

I will then propose an exchange of letters bctvoen ourselves to nmend our oripinal agreement on this programme. 1 • The f:overnr.ient of Newfoundland has agreed, Hr, Speaker) and I sent the minister a telex _iust this morning, "'Fe your telex concerning the Federal - Provincial Emp] oyment Loans Pror.rar:m-1e, the [;overnment of Newf0undland accepts your proposals with reference to an extension to June 30 of the deadline for incurring for}?ive.ncss of seventy-five percent of direct, on site labour costs.

We. ai'."ree with reference to receivinp :md approvinr: applications from our municipalities for this extended forgiveness period. 1 ' So, rsr.

Sneaker, any municipality that was enra~£>d on a Federal - Provincial Employment Loans Project where the deadline was May 31, 1972, with respect to the Government of Canada pnying seventy­ five percent of the labour costs or forgivi.ng seventy-five percent, should now contact the Department of ?-'unicipal Affairs he.re and advise the department whether they wish an extension to June 30 of that deadline for incurrinp: forgiveness of seventy-five percent of the direct on site labour costs. They have to apply with a statement outlininf the reasons for the delay in affecting satisfactory progress by ~ay 31.

Then we will advise the rovernment of Canada of their applications for that additional perind. They should now note that :H they want that additional month which will be very important to quite a few municipalities. There are copies he.re for the press and the Leader of the Opposition. 1313

June l, 1972 Tope 437 J!-1 - l MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. this is very welcome news indeed and I may add it is another good move by the Liberal Government at Ottawa. 1 suspect there will be several more. I wonder, one or two very minor points which J think are important in context, first of all would the Minister of Finance undertake to cotm1unicate with his colleague and indeed seat mate, the Minister of Municipal Affairs,an<l perhaps the Minister of Municipal Affairs could nsk his staff to communicate this information directly to the municipalities throughout the province-.

In view of the hard winter we have had which in Northern Newfoundland is still continuing, I think this is all the more important, I know many municipalities in the north in particular have not been able to get ahead with this.

I wonder if also,and perhaps the Minister of Finance would take this as notice and when we come to his estimates or the municipal affairs whichever is appropriate, he could tell us how much the Newfoundland Government did apply for and for what it was used out of this money made available by Ottawa to the government of the province for so-called winter works projects, one of the three programmes initiated by the Government of Canada last year, I do not expect the minister to have it now but perhaps he could take this as a form of notice and arrange to have the information.

I am also interested in the Grand Falls Golf Club, a pet subject of mine. PETITIONS : 0 ~-~ F.R. STAGG: Mr. Speaker, I have another weighty petition from the citizens of the District of Port au Port. I have the weightiest one of the lot and it must weigh about a pound and a-half with a very weighty prayer as well. It concerns an area on the tip of Long Point formerly known as Blue Beach Pond. It is a salt water pond in which the tide rises and falls and it is unfortunately separated from the 1314

June 1, 1972 Tape 437 sea by about forty feet of beach, This needs to be buttressed on either side and open to the sea and tmuld be an ideal boat shelter for that area of the Pest Coast. This ~etition is signed by 2,776 people in the District of Port au Port. There are no people living at Blue Beach Pond so this is not a parochial petition. It does not come from a particular area JM - 2 but comes from the wh0lc district and it is one of the main contributions to the el::i.minating of unemployment in the district if this could be done.

It would be both a federal and a provincial problem and this is where it has heen bogged down in the past. During the past election campaiµ;n the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources and the Minister of Supply and 1 flew over it and they were suitably impressed I am sure,and I look to them for support for it. 1 nm sure that the previous Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources was also aware of this possible project and its contribution to the District of Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, I ask that this be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. S.A. NEARY: Mr. Speaker.

I would like to support that very weighty petition 1315

June 1, 1972 NB - 1 presented by the hon. member for Port au Port on hehalf of a group of his constituents near the tip of Long Point who wanted some cribbing done so they could have a boat shelter there. I want to say. Mr. Speaker. that 1 do not envy the hon. memher 1n trying to get the prayer of this petition granted for his constituents after what we heard in this honourable House yesterday afternoon. On motion Petition received: MR STAGG· Nr. Speaker, if I may add another word. It is quite possible that we may he ahle to use some of the left-over building materials from the District of Bell Island. HON. F. n.

MOORES (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I would like to at this time make a statement regarding the policy of the Government regarding planning over the next few years. The Government is keenly conscious of the very great need for Newfoundland to engage in full and intelligent and comprehensive lon~-terrn planning. The recent visits which my colleagues and I had to Ottawa confirmed the Federal Government's interest in nn emphasis on planning. While Ottawa is willing to aid us in thts, exercise in responsibility for such planning rests squarely on the Government of this Province.

We have accepted this responsibility and have previously publically announced our firm intention to initiate a major planning thrust without delay. It would appear, judginR from past results, that existing plann1ng procedures and practices have not been successful. It is absolutely essential if the primary objectives of effective planning and prompt action are to be achieved that an entirely new approach to planning he adopted. I shall now outline the first steps which my Government is takinf to initiate a new system for planning in the province. The Government established a Cabinet Planninf?

Committee which I head and of which the Hon. C.H. Doody, the Minister of Mines Argriculture and Resources, and the Hon. G, Ottenheimer. Minister Without Portfolio, are the initial members. Th1s Committee shall be aJded in its mission hy a Planning Task 1316

June 1. 1Q72 Tape 438 NB - 2 Force of some twenty senior and experienced public servants i.ncludinf; a senior faculty member from Memorial University and headed hy my Chief Executive Assistant. The narnes of the ini ti.al Planning Committee Task Force tr.embers are attached to the statement which Twill file for the benefit of the members opposite and for rhe puhlic at larfZe. The main rcspons:I.hility of the !'lanning Task Force shall be {

a) to ack as technical assistants to the Chbinet Planning Committee in the selection of appropriate short and long-term ohjectives for Newfoundland's development. (

h) to immediately initiate research and studies which will lead promptly to the development of alternative policy proposals for the accomplishment of the ohjecti.ves selected 11y the Cabinet Planning Committee, and (

c) the assembling of these pollcies into specific multi-year plans which shall have a financial as ·well as programmed dir.iension. In this process, priorities will be decided and plans will he formulated by the rahinet Planning Committee and these tentative plans shall he suhject to final approval by the Executive Council.

The individuals comprising the Planning Task force shall for the present remain in thP,ir present positions hut will be required to serve the P1anning Task Force as a matter of very high priority. ~!embers have heen selected not only for their known ahility,but because of the work they are now per­ forminp. in the departments, it is important that they retain such linkages. The Cahinet 1317

June l, 1972 SC - l P};,rnnlnp Committee Jeems it dc;:.;Lruble, im:1:f.vidnn1 merrihers ot the r,Lmni.nv task force shnll he a:~ked estnbllsh lndividu;1.J advisory r:ronpt~ conprisin;, rersonR Fi.th expe:rti,,e in s.nv

part l cular field which thcv represent, either on the task force or in the community at ls:u::p;c, to advise the task force and prov.ide impetus into the planning task force programme.

The activities of :ill exist:int; pL:mning ?;roups nnd/nr co;-:;mittes or rcnlignment as to ohjec.tiv<:s by the Cnbinct PLmninr, Cm:.mittee The committee has been g:r,3.tif:ic.d hy the response of the Governr.;ent of Canada to its recent inquiries concerning the plnrminr; assistance and the government has wrJtten to, or I hnvc written to the 'Hn1.ster of Rep;lonal and Economic Expansion and his colleagues, asking them tn name officials to jointly work vith the named members of the Task Farce so that the pla;minp can be done on a joint basis from day one.

From the work of this task force and the recommendations of the Committee on government administration of productivity it is lil:ely that there will e:nerp;e ,on n permanent bnsis. a planning secretnriate that will perforn. an important planning and policy formulation advisory service to the p:ove:rnmc:nt. I have some copies here, '\:!r. Speaker, for the members opposite and for members of the Press. HR. ROBERTS: !·lr. Speaker, I will mnke a very brief comment on the str,tement just re.i.d by the Premier.

I think I could say three things only at this time because the subject matter of his statement is not the sort of thing that can be commented upon ln a stater,;ent, indeed it would presumably underline n number of debates in the House 9 First of all I would sRv that everybody welcomes pLmn:ing. 1 t is one of the jargon words in government. Secondly I would say thnt the Dtatment read by the Premier and the statement of the governnent 1 s policy can mean either 1318

June l, 1972 cverythinµ. or nothing. The results will sbnw and we ',,1ill know verv quickly. Thirdly I think it ;>hcmld he drawr to the ntrt:r:U.on of the people of Newfoundland ;md ;_,J the lhrnse, Sir, that iL is r;uitc interesting that the Minister of F inane£', ·Hn 1 s t,-,r ,:rrmorntr: Dcvt:l.0pnent and President of the Treasury Uno.rd, j rwL a mer,,ber uf thL--; Ccnmittec.

In viei, of his very long speech yc.sterd;:,y :rnd hi:~ state:,ent. of philosophy, coherent and an.i,_ulate statement- do not ctc-cept the statement but it b coherent :md articulate, find tr most iru:erest.in/ It would be most noteworthy that he is not a mer.,lHcr of this ,..omrnittee that will apparently be the inner group de terming r:hc pnl.ic ies, planning and priorities. I suspect though. Sir, that 1 am gett:inf,'. into de.bate,. The Premier and I could perhaps have a g11 at thiR on tne huJget debatt: and other times.

I wUl not be nearly as long as be was but then again 1 do not have Information :'ieHfoundLmd draftinr my stntements for me, not yet and never. k:W::.: ~!OQ!tES:: Mr. Speaker, I wus sorry if the Leader of the. Opposition was upset hy the Length of ny r:taternent, but as opposed to himself who apologized for his shortness, l hnpe I hnd something tu say. HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, am sure the Premier who had little to say will have to analize the statement carefully but it is exactly the sort of statement would expect. Order, Hr. Speaker.

The hon. the Premier is out of order too and 1 did not hear any of the puppets on the other side calling him to order. PR.ESENTING PETrrIONS: MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, 1 ask leave of the House to present a petition on behalf of the residents of King's Point, Harry's Harbour, Jacksons Cave and Silverdale, and Rattling Brook, to petition the Government of Newfoundland to reconstruct and pave that

section of the highway consisting of seven miles of road from the Springdale intersection to King's Point 1319

June l, 1972 Mr. Peckford Tape no. 440 l-'age 1- HRW This is a very dangrarou.s stretch of road, Hr. Speaker. There is one part of it ¾l'hich i.s a very long hill, about a mile and a-half to two miles long, There is a certain part on that hill that is so steep that it is commonly being called nuevil 1 s Drop." lam sure that the residents of these various comnunities are considering this particular part of the road when they ask for reconstruction of the road. It is interesting to note - well tragically to note really. Hr.

Speaker, that in the last three or four years there has been a number of very serious accidents on this stretch of road. There was one accident about three years ago claiming the lives of a young couple in their twenties. from Nova Scotia. In the last year there ha1.ebeen also a number of very serious mishaps on this road. l wholeheartedly support this petiticn, Mr. Speaker, and move that the petition be placed on the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, there ls no doubt at all that if the hon. member for Port au Port keeps up these wisecracks that he will make the junior cabinet. I would like to support the petition presented by the hon. member for Green Bay O on behalf of the residents in the Community of King's Point and the two communities between King's Point and Rattling Brook, to have that seven miles of road upgraded and paved. I suppose after all we heard in this honourable House yesterday afternoon~ Mr.

Speaker, you could call it nPeckford's Plunge. 11 I do hope, Sir, - I do not envy the honourable member in trying to get this badly needed improvement for the residents of his district, I do not envy him at all, Sir, in approaching the hon. Minister of Finance whom I am sure would be very happy to see that this work is carried out in this fiscal year in the honourable member1 s district. On motion petition received. QUESTIONS MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the 1320

June l, 1972 Tape no. 440 Page 2 Mr. Neary hon. Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources. I would like to ask the minister: Have negotiations resumed between the government and the employees of Newfoundland Farm Products? MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, this is a matter that we spoke of a day or so ago of great urgency right now. I would like to say that progress is being made but I would not care to make any further comments because it might prejudice the position as it now stands. It is rather delicate. It is very important.

I think if we can try to contain ourselves for just a day or so, 1 think that we might be in a position to make a comment at that time. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speakert I thank the honourable minister for his answer and I would like to ask the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Rcrources a second question: Would the minister inform the HouHe as to what steps are being taken to collect the accounts receivable owing to Newfoundland Farm Products? MR. DOODY: I will take that as notice. Mr, Speaker. and I will get the necessary reply. JlR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon.

Minister of Finance. 1321

-June 1, 1972. Tape 441. Page 1. yrg .NEARY: Will th£! minister infnrm nembers of this honourahle House, consequently the people of Nevfoundland 1 if the $2,600,000 poid to Spencer Lake for the Burgeo Fish Plant is in additton to $1 million that was paid previously or is this firm, final payment to Spencer Lnke1 MR.CROSBIE: Certainly I will,Hr, Speaker. MR.NEARY: Mr, Speaker the honourable minister has not answered the question. }JR.CROSBIE: I said l ¾'ill, that .is what you asked, 1 will. MR.NEARY: I would Like to ask the honourable minister Mr. Speaker, - Mr.

Speaker, the honourable members on the opposite side this is funny~ $2,600,000 lashed out to Spencer Lake - }fR,SPEAKER: Order please. MR.NEARY: May I rephrase the question '.'lr. Speaker? Hill the honour:,ble minister :i.nform this honourable House now, at this moment, :if the $2,600,000 paid to Spencer Lake for the Burgeo fish Plant is in addition to the 51 t;iillion that has already been paid to Mr. Lake? DIR.CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker, the proper time to discuss this is on the estimates. The anount given in the Bui1get Speech of $2,600,000 is the only amount paid. ;::!i;.NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question? Would the honourable minister inform the House what other concessions have been granted to Hr. Lake in addition to $2,600,000? MR.CROSBIE: right way. Put it on the Order Paper, when the estimates come up.the MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the honourable minister afraid to answer the f]Uestion? What does the honourable minister have to hide,i,tr. Speaker? MR.CROSBIE: He has not a thing to hide. HR. Nb\RW:{ Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour.

Would the Minister of Labour inform the members of this honourable House now, today, if steps have been taken to see that New­ foundlanders get preference in the job opportunities that are offering at 1322

June 1, 1972. Tape 441. Page 2. the Linerboard Mill construction in Stephenville? ~m.;•tAYNARD: :Mr. Speaker, I think the honourable member asked that question yesterday. The answer is exactly the same today - MR.NEARY: Mr. Speak12r, will the nonournble minister inforn the House if the committee has been set up and if they have started vork yet? "!R.MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the committee has been set up. They have started work. PR.NEARY· ?-1r. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Lahour a questi.on.

Would the Mintster of Lnbour gtve the honourable House a progeess report on what steps have been taken to remedv the safety hazards in the phosphorus nlant at Long Harbour? HR.~/\YNARD: If the honourable member would like it I will prepare a ministerial statement and present "it to the House on Monday or Tuesday. MR.NEARY: I would like to thank the honourab 1 e minister for answering the n,uestion,Mr. Speaker. 0RDERS OF THF DAY CRDSRIF: ------~ Dpr,nsl ime 'leary. •-n1. ROBERTS: That is pretty p_rmd! Tlut i.s wnndr,,rfol! FnmilY contncts m."lke so rn\Kh for f:lr:;m Croshie. rogue "TT_oherts. !-fr.

Speaker, the lwnour,ihle genLleman, I do not think he \.·JdS i.nsinuntin_r:. Perhn.ps he voul.d rare to t-dthdraw the remark. The rem:1rk in which he referred tn me as ,·i:oguc Hoberts''. ;'Jr, Spe:tker, to a point of privi.lepc. If he feels that he iB not ,teun, then I withdrnw the rerinrk in whJch cal.led him clean. 1f >1;:, sw;s lH~ :is unclean, 1 accept his weird. Nm,_,. let h.lrn withdraw the other remark, Sir. 1323

Then fine, 1 -tr. fnen.lrer~ 1 take m:te that T raised the question of privtlcpe. '"'" will rcsenrch the thinr pr0r,crly 2nd ,;,.re will follov it frow there. But the arrogance of that certain younp gcntlerr_nn wi]l no lontH:r po in thi!: House, Sir. If he is _f'.!ohw to he unclean, let him be uncle;:m. PR. SPEAKFR · Order: order! ------~--. Fr. Spenker, I raised the auestion of privilege ;ind :i.n due course. I will asV. you for n rulim:. Hr.

Spe.akcrt w::i.th your permission 1 vould like to address a question to the nctinft the hon. ~tinister of Highways, the answer of which is of very r;rnve and inmedinte ir:iportance to not onlv my district of Twillingntet but to the entire area and to the entir'c' bay. The question is this: In view of the fnct that the contractor on the c,1useway c.onncctinp: the two islands is withdrnwing his N1uiprnent, 1 would like to 0sk the hon. Minister of Highvavs if and when the next nhase of that causeway is going to be let.or called, or aw.o.rded,vlease?

HON~ E.MAYNJ,.,RD (Pinister of Hid1ts.·avs, Act:inr): I will be glad to take the rmestion as noted and proviric the answer on Yonrlay :if thflt is nll rip-ht with the hon. r:entlernan~ PF. rILLETT: Pr. Speaker, if I nuy answer that. I am told thnt hy ---------· Friday the eouipment is p:oing to hr out. I would lilce to nsk ;1 supplencntary question and that is thist Is the hon. 1·1inister of Hight-mys and also the hon. Ninister of Financc 1 for that matter, aware of what will no doubt happen if the construction of this causewny is discontinued?

It wns started in Janunry and it was frozen, the ice was the.re all the wintcr 1 Put should we get a iznle of northeast wind cominp in from the North Atlantic without the armour stone on the outside, I am very r,uch afraid that causeway wi.11 he no longer, at lenst ;it'nvc the water. It is very importnnt, Mr. Speaker, and I would love to have an answer today. he.cause he started withdrawing his equipment on Hnnday. 1324

June l, 1972, T,1pe 442, Pap;e 2 -- npb MR. l'AYNARD: }fr. Speaker, to my knowledge there is no intention of discontinuing the work on the causeway. It will be continuing this year. The exact amount of money that hns been allocated for it, I do not know the exact figures at this time. I do know that there has been monies a]located for additional work on the causeway and to the best of my knowledge the contract has been let. i,-,11,ether it is the same contract or not I do not know right at this time. This is somcthin~ else again that I would have to check out.

There is work continuing on the causeway, unless, well I am sure it has not been cancelled in the last two or three days. !'F . GILLETT: Pr. Speaker, if I may rise again. The second phase I believe is just about finished, at least it will be on Friday. Once that eouipment is moved out we can all appreciate what it is ~oin~ to cost to get any contractor to bring it back a.gain. It is of the utmost importance to hold that equipment there riJ?;ht now, tomorror or this afternoon. They started moving out on Monday. I would love, Mr.

Speaker, I would love to know today if it is possible at alL !f_R. l'.AYNARD, I will check with my officials this afternoon and see if I can provide the hon. gentleman with a statement. l'R. GILLETT, l'R. CROSBIE· Sir, I appreciate it very much. Thank you! Before we proceed any further, I do not want to ruffle the sensibilities of the Leader of the Opposition. He does not need to research Beauchesne. I withdraw the word rogue with reference to him, it wa~ not meant seriously anyway,as he knows. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I am grateful that the member for St. John 1 s West has withdrawn it.

I will not withdraw the word unclean even though he has asked me to. ORDERS OF THE DAY On motion, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE 1325

June l, 1972 J}1 - 1 Mr. Cbairm;m. dor,s the -minister make nn opening statement? No, not rer,.llv hut 1 would rather get straight into the estimates.if T may :i.nd ttl}e it from there item by item and poun<l hy pound. Hr. Chai man, :if I nifht iust say a few words. We are en 801(01) - the nini.ster 1 s salary. and it has Deen the practice in past years and I assume H wi U be practice again, Your Honour, thnt the more general debate wil1 take place on the first vote. 801(01).

The minister w-:i.11 doubtless be relieved to hear that in view of the fact he has been such a good P1:inistcr in nis si"ort tenure we wi11 not be tryinr, to reduce his salary at least at this point of this year. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. RORERTS: I nm glad, Sir, that is I would think <mite a larp,e group, is it not? I have no such claims. Well some of thew are chi.ldren, I ouite arree, Mr. Chaiman. Anyway there are one or two larp.er topics that perhaps I could raise and there may he some of my colleagues who have some points to raise and the minister could then touch upon them.

But first the procedural point, the estimates, Hr. Chairman, as they have been supplied to the committee 1 have the 1972-- 73 estimates of course but only the revised fir:urcs for 1971 and 1972. Now, Sir, the financial year of the r-overnment ended on Mnrch 31 of course and the books are closed as of the 30th day of April. This is now the 1st of June, a full month after that,and T woulrl hope that the minister c:ould have the actual expenditure figures available as there may be some items that we would want to have and 1 ar:i snre that his officials could supply him with that information. MR.

DOODY: I do not have the;;, with me but they are avnilablc. If you so desire any of them I can ~et them for you. ~. ROBERTS: I think, Mr, Chairman, if all the l'linisters on the 1326

June 1, 1972 estimates could have the actual expenditures avail~ble o.s revised figures are non:ially done in December or in January. I do nnt know when they were done this year hut nomally they are done in December and Januar; and I think the }tines and Resources nff:tcia1s arP nearly as p;ood as Health and llealth,,ns my relative the present Hlnister of Heal th knows, the officials can supply tri.n with the informatfon usuallv within a week of the dosing of the vear. They are exceptional officials of Health. So I think the officinls, Mr.

Chairman, if they could have the actual figures avnilable would make Jer..isl-,t:ion Also when we come to the salary appendices, l think this is a change from last yenr because we have the breakdowns by the n11mhcr of staff proposed to be hired, if you wish the authorized positions, for the current financial year but we are nnt being given ;my infornntion as to what the established staff was last year.

Now I can think of technical reasons why the infonnation is not here but the ministers mir,.ht perhaps he armed with the infornation in cases where there are lani:e increases in the staff or indeed any new positions or that sort of thinr,. It would make the coI;U;1ittees work go more quickly. Mr.

Chairman, there .1.re one or two items r would like to raise in a more general way and in rai.s:i.ng them.as throughout the estimates we will be raising items,I realize that the ministery is quite new 1 ns they have only been in office three or four months or whatever the period is,nnd they really are just getting use<l to the job which they hnve to do.

So it is not a mntter at this stage of so much.I suppose with the notable exception of the Minister of Education who has already made a mess of that department, there is no real need I would not think to go into detail on what ministers have done because I think, quite honestly and quite candidly 1 the ministers have not had a great deal of ti.me to establish thcf'1selves and to implement new programmes 1327

June 1, 1972 Tape f,43 JM - 3 and to change existing prop:n.urrr:;es and all that sort of thing, We would not expect the  to hut next year~ a vear fron now, well we will have time. But there are some 1328

June 1, 1972 Tape no. 444 Page 1 - MW Mr. Roberts partisan policy items where perhaps individual ministers could enlighten us on the administration 1 s views and several of these occur within the areas of government activity administered by the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources. Let me touch on them briefly. We will have other opportunities to debate them in other years. I wonder if the minister 1 to begin with, could talk about the forest tenure situation in the province. This is an item. Sir. which has occupied the committee before, which has indeed occupied the full House on occasion .

The situation in the province is that briefly and basically almost all of the forest land available in this province is tied up. The Reid Newfoundland Company owned an outrageously large amou11t of land which they got for building the railway. When we were the ministry, they had the gall to ask us for S46 million for the return of their rights. We spurned that offer and l have heard nothing further. I would not expect to because shortly thereafter we left office, 1 am glad to see the present minister smiling.

I assume he shares my view that even $. 46 is - I think the Reid family were adequately compensated over the years for what they have done for Newfoundland. They have had this land, the Reid Newfoundland Company, for fifty, sixty and seventy years. If they are not using it, l !hink it is high time that it came back to the province,and to me a dollar would be fair and adequate compensation. The other large areas of the province are held by the Crown and by the two paper companies presently active in the province: the Bowater Organization and Price, the old AND Company.

Now, Sir, I think it is an established - AN HON. MEMBER: ( Inaudible) HR. ROBERTS: l am sorry. Well no, the Crown lands - I will come to those but Shaheen owns no land, surely to God! It is the Crown land that is reserved for Shaheen. I will touch upon it but I quite agree with what the Finance Minister said yesterday about the Crown limits reserved for Shaheen, the so-called 1329

June 1. 1972 Tape no. 444 Page 2 11 Third Mill Limits" is the term l have always used. The paper company 1 Sir, owe - AN HO!~. HtM.EER: (In.audible) MR. ROBERTS: Indeed if the minister wishes to bring in a bi,11 today to end them, I will. It is valid to reserve wood limits for the purpose of a mill and not dissipate them~ The third mill has really been around a great length of time. Unless so~ething radical has happened since the 18th, day of January, I do not think I will get my hard- hat ready to wear to the sod turning at Come-by-Chance for the third mill.

It is much talked about but it has not materialized as yet. The land is there. The paper companies I think have too much land. Indeed I think the paper companies themselves will be the first to agree that they have too much land. They have too much in one sense and not enough in another. The age structure in particular of the forest stands in this province is becoming quite unsatisfactory. The Bowater people 1 remember seeing a table a number of years ago,.,lith Hr. Joyce, who is now with Bowaters in Connecticut,at their sales office, their North American sales office. He is head of that. Mr.

Joyce was in Corner Brook and I remember seeing a paper, a table that indicated, I think the year 2004 Bowaters would run out of wood supply. I do not know if that is correct. I do not know if my rr.emory is serving me correctly. I do not know if the statement was correct hut it is an alarming prospect$ Two thousand and four is only thirty-two years from now. It is not very long at all really. It certainly is not very long when you come to think of an industry as essential to the future of this province as the Corner Brook Paper Mill.

The Price people have more land and I believe their forests are in better shape. Indeed I understand that in certain areas of the Price Newfoundland Forests they are now logging for the third time. They have cut over once originally, 1904,1905,1908,1910, the early yearn. They cut over again in the late 1930's and early 1940ts. Now they are nutting that 1330

June 1, 1972 Tape no. 444 Page 3 Hr. Roberts. land for a third time. AN HON. MEMBER: (tnaudible) l'!R. ROBERTS: Right! That is the point I was coming to. There is land that Price have not logged at all. There is a two million cord stand in my own district and in White Bay South called the: "~0onev Rlock." It was acquired under dubious circumstances, a legi.slattv<,~ authorization which cancelled the term of the lease anti conferred a lease-hold interest in­ to a free-hold interest. That was about 1933 or 1934, the last Conservative Administration .just before Commission came. Price have never lost that land.

I can remember in 1966, the year the Trans Canada Highway was open, the then Premier, Mr. Smallwood, and the then Prime Minister of Canada, Hr~ Pearson, lunched at Grand Falls House, in Grand Falls, the Price guest house or whatever it is, the residence they have there. The Grand Fall~ House was built in six weeks actually for Lord Northcott 1 so legend has it. Anyway, Mr. Pearson and Mr. Smallwood were there to lunch and I think Mr. Larry Wickwire was then the general manager at Grand Falls and there were a number of other people there, I was one of them.

They fell to talking about timber limits ~ 1 just had a visit from one of my constituents who live in Harbour Deep which is in the Mooney Block. The Mooney Block stretches to the north of Harbour Deep and to the south. I, being very brash even in those days.as the Minister of Provincial Affairs will agree, brought up the point: Why did Price have two million cords of wood that they never lost, never touched? Mr. Wickwire was anything but pleased at this~ The Prime Minister expressed an interest and Mr. Smallwood expressed some interest We just chucked it around.

This was the time when Ottawa was talking about lending us enough money to buy back all the timber limits, That plan has now been discarded because it is not the best one. That was on the go then. Mr. Sauve was the Minister of Forestry in Ottawa and he was qultc keen on lending us $20 million or $30 million or $40 million to buy back all the limits, manage 1331

June 1, 1972 Tape no. 41,4 Page 4 Mr. Roberts them under the Crowu estate, guaranteeing the paper mills a supply of wood for which they would pay enough to amortise these costs of repaying the loan. Some.thing very strange: happened just after th13,t. My friend from Harbour Deep was in St~ John's n week or so later and he came to see me.

He said, know something unusual happened.n I said, 11 wha.t is that?H He said, "well every year in the past when I have gone to Price or AND, in the old days~to ask if I could cut a few cords of wood on the Mooney Block, near Barbour Deep, they would not hear me, I uould spend days sitting in the waiting rooms of offices and when they were ready they would see me. They would not pay much attention to me or anything. But the other day I got a phone call from Mr~ Williams (I think it was)~ Nelson William who, for all I knew, was still the woods manager at - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible): MR. ROBERTS: Oh, no!

This was l966l six or seven years ago.ul got a phone call, would I like to come up to Grand Falls to talk to him about cut ting on the Fooney Block, n He said, l! they paid my way up and I went in and they just took me right in. There were no days and weeks of waiting. They offered me 10,000 cords and up to then I had only had a couple of thousand. Everybody in Harbour Deep had worked that winter." Now the only point in that anecdote, Mr.

Chairman, is this: Not public pressure but just a mere mention in quite casual circumstances to the man who was then general manager of Price {he is now running a Bowater Mill at South Africa, Mr. Wickwire) that that produced this little response right in Harbour Deep. The paper companies know they have too much land. They know they do not intend to use it. I think they would be quite willing to give it up under appropriate circumstances. I think this forest tenure question is one of the big issues facing us in the field of policy administered today bv the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and 1332

June 1, 1972 NC - 1 Resources and indeed if he achieves nothing e1 se durinr, the. terms which he has in that department. if he achieves nothing other thn.n the rationallzation of our forest industrv in thls provinn', he will achieve more th;in most men every achieve. I told hh, privately one day and he agreed with me and he is agreeing again. It is a monumental achievement. A monumental undertaking tno; The third mill limits, I quite agree i✓ ith cancelling if they are not to be used. It is ridiculous to tie them up.

H the Shaheen organization cannot produce the package, then let it go and look elsewhere,:if that is the w;1v to develop it. lf n0t, perhaps they could be saw logged. i,:e are lo:,ing wood throughout N-e.wfoundlam.1 now and one of the things about this adndnistrution which 1 welcome and which 1 hope they will carry through. I have seen no sign of it yet, is this commitment to small indmnries.

The mini.ster will doubtless remember that most nf my co:1stlt11tents have written to me. faithfully send them on and ;;upport their requests because, Sir, saw mills and this sort of thing. if proper 1y managed, properly encouraged, can employ a fair numher of people. I really hope it co:nes nbout. 1t has been talked nbout for years. When we were the minl~,try we talked about it and nothing ever seemed to happen. There ,1re problems. There are real problems involved with the economics,with the economics of these small saw mill operations.

The fact remains that much of the wood beinr, used 1n Newfoundland in building supplies and the like is imported, Sone of 1 t will always have to be imported, Much of it does not have to he. There are places in White llay North where you can cut sticks, Mr. Chairman, that are twelve by twelve square sticks, near Roddickton. The forests are or.e hundred and one hundred and fifty years old. The wood is rotting and the r:icn are rotting_ with it. So perhaps the minister can tell us a little of his thinking on thP question of forest tenures. 1333

June 2, 1972 NC - 2 'ly friend and former colleague, :1r, Callahan, who was the Minister of ~..-!ines anrl Resources in the lnst: ndml.nLstrntion, h:td done n great deal of work on this and he had evolved what I think is an r.nnazingly good plan. the Comnercial Forests Corporation, a good concept. Put all the forests under one management 1 have all the people tntcrested in using the forests, the pnper companies. the Crown, involved in the mannraemcnt nnd then of course the charges will be p,1.id for in proportion to the. amount of wood cuL Mr.

Ch,1irman, the paper comprmies have high r;rnded their w00!1, They have cut the cheap wood first. T do not think tbe.y are now but they have high graded their wood, The Crown urea in the niain has not as well managed as it should be, lt is not being m,rnaged even nov as it should be. So perhaps the rdnistcr could tell us a Little of his thoughts there. It is a sub_ie.ct we v:111 be coming back to again and n~ain hec.::wse I believe it is one of the r,reat questions fncinp, :iewfoundland. It is one of our major resources.

It is not being fully nsed. r thank whatever kind soul sent me that, S Lr. hope it is ,,ater and not vodka or gin. Although 'it is civarettes ttrnt t:c nre not a11owed to use any more. T vonder also, '1r. Clrnirm:m, if the minister could tell us a lit:tle of his thinking of the n<lriinistratinn policv on this content:ious issue of mineral concess·lons. l long hnd issue 0r doubts. if you wish, with the system we have. I have argued. I <lo not mind saying that I have argued with the officials concerner!.

They tel1 me that the present system, the systern that h.:w ;1lwuy:; h:-en in ffect, is the best one, of giving large concession areas under st:lt11tnry lt:nse to companies, exploration perml.ts and then they shed so tmch over '.1 perior! nf years and they are allowed to turn exploration nerrnits into devclnpner:t permits nnd licences and so forth. 1334

June ,._, 1072 Tnpe t~o. 445 NC - 3 1 have argued tdth then. They never really convinced rr.e. yj-r. Chairr.-mn, every tlme lt came up in the prevl.ouh ;:,Jninistration, t,•e t;ere convinced. I mav add the Federn.l Ccvermnent officials are not cnnvinced and never 'rnve been of the vintkm cf our policy. I think there vas a DR!:E report two or three year'fi ,it:n, Has there not, that criticized very heavily this type of concession. I wonder if the i:llnister, I rat"!er think there should be sorce chanp_es.

Today, l never c:irried my point before and I may not carry i.t no.,,,. but it 1s an area, most of Ne:vfoundland if you look at the mnp, Hr. Cb.airman, of mineral crmcessions in this province. Your Honour doubtless stays up r:ip;hts lookinp: at that particular mt:tp, thnt is when Your Hotwur is not lnoLing at the m:;.p of the forest cnncess.ions. Llttle red and yellow skirts, it i.s very pretty really. Hut much of thh; island and much of Lahrador is under mineral concessions and I wonder if this is the way to get the maximum prospecting activity. I assure you that i,; i:·1hat we want.

Nm, thanks to Hill Callnhnn mid some substantial assistance from Ott.1wa, we now have n nr,jor mi.neral resources explnrntion program.me under w:1y. It is in the Escimates this year. It i;:. one of the nice progrnm.-nes. lt is a shared-cost programme - one hundrf!d per cent Ottawa, zero per cent Newfoundland. I think even the jovial Minister of Finance would agree that that is the sort of shared-cost programmes we should have. But it is not enough. That will givi.,- us some geological mars. Ee have n lot now but it will give us more.

It will g:i.ve us perhaps even a geological inventory of this province, It will not give us the exploratory activities. It will not r,ive us the prospects we should hnve. Similarly on the mineral thing again, I wonder if the minister, I do not want to interrupt him,. the premiers do tnke prescedence at times. £1-N l2_0J~J!EMBER: Inaudible. 1335

June 1, 1972 Tape No, 445 NC - 4 MR. ROBERTS: I could add, a touching humilitv both on my part and on the Premier's part because he has taken his seat again. It is nice to see hin in the House. I am always pleased to see him here. 1 was Just going to say that there was a time when prenie.rs spoke to me. Well the cat can look upon the Queen. AN H0:1. HE!'IDER: Innudible. ~1R. tiOBI'.RTS: One could speak back. Now they speak back but the Premier does not listen. So it is the same thing, At least he did not have a reserved parking place at Elizabeth Towers anyway, "lr. Chairman. ~{R.

HOO RES~ It was on the Roche I s Line. ----- ~- ROBERTS: No~ he did not have one at Roche's Line, anymore than the present Premier does not have one in his legal place of residence in Harbour Grace. After all, did the hon. gentleman not vote in Harbour Grace district in the last election~ ~fR. ~OORES: Inaudible. MR._B_O_BERTS: No, hut on the other hand the hon, gentleman owns it, not the people. Newfoundland House, Roche's Line, is owned by the people of this province, subject to a life interestby Mr. Smallwood and his wife, Mrs.

Smallwood, and it reverts to the province~ I do not know what it will ever be used for, the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs perhaps has some use for it, maybe a baseball clinic. MR.,,:ilJ_RPHY: It could be a house of flowers. ROBERTS: I do not think that is worthy of the hon. gentleman, really. I really do not. MR, 1"H1RPHY: It could be,1 said. MR. ROBERTS: Hell it could be, sure. But I do not like the insinuation. 1 do not think it is a worthy one, so we will just pass on. 1336

June 1, 1972 Tape ~-1o. 445 ~c - 5 MR. ~URPHY: Inaudible. !'fR. ROHER.TS: l brouisht it up because the Premier raised it. 1 believe in referring to the proper minister, l nm just trying to help the Premier and the minister, that is all. HR. HlJRPHY: I wiH leave mv remarks on ri:c:ord if vou are prepared to leave y~rs. 1:R,'. __ }~1!._E,_!{TS~ Oh 1 am quite :1repared to leave mine on the record. MR. CHAIR"t1"A31 • I!i;1•1dib le. h----- -- . ROBERTS: '·1r. Chai.rman. we are on travellinr, and we are travelling rather widely but that is part of the Estimate procedure.

But 1 was talking, before the Premier drifted across and that is what hegan it all, Hr. Chnirman. 1 was talking about the mineral concessions and leading on to a very few remarks on local processing. Ontario and British Columbia have now passed legislation requiring the processing of mjnerals within the province wherever possible and practical, a brna<l loop-hole. I think we should have lt in Newfoundland, perhaps the minister could say a few words on that as well, particularly appropriate in view of the fact that the iron ore rnin~s, the Minister of Finance referred to them yesterday, are continuing to expand.

Iron ore is rt dim:inishlng resource, Sir. Once it is taken out of the ground it is gone. Tt is not renewable. We. should make sure we get the maximum benefit out of it. I am not suggesting that we should require it to be smelted in Newfoundlancl, and. that includeR Labrador, for the benefi.t of the mcmher for Labrador West. "-ff!:. ROUSSEAU: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: 1 am glad the hon. gentleMan accepts it, because that is the way it should be. But can we refine these metals further? Can we refine the copper and other concentrates that come from Buchans? Is it possible to refine these further? At some point, 1337

June l, 1972 Tape No. 445 NC - 6 BR1:1r,o are bound to be nining uranium up in '."laklwvik. Honkey Lake nnct Seal Lake, in that area of the province. Can anything he done to refine i.t: or further process i.t in Newfoundland'? Again in a general way perhaps the minister can say a few words. Finally. Mr. Chairman, perhaps the r.,inister could indicate the administration 1 s policy on off~shore mineral rir,hts, rm old question, one that has legal implications and one that has implications in the mines and resources category. I believe that Newfoundland 1 s case in law~ 1 spent a long time on this in law school.

I believe in law that it js better thnn any other provinces and I think it is superior to the position of the Government of Canada. The British Columbia reference, the reference by the Government of Canada on the British Columbia case does not apply in Newfoundland. The only worrisome thin,>; about :Jt, for anybody who has rend the jud)l.ernent of the Supreme Court of Canada in that casc,is that it was a clear pollcy decision.

It read like an r\merican Supreme Court decision in th2t the judges said~':This is our opinion, it ts not iust what the law says, it is a matter where we are making the law.r If that attitude i~ in effect still, then perhaps our case will ~et shot down too. Despite that, I think we should pursue it. Mr. Smallwood a number of times pressed, I guess Mr. Pearson was the Prime Minister then ,and then also pressed Hr. Trudeau 1 subsequently~ Mr, Callahan when he was the Minister pressed 1338

June 1, 1972 Tape 446 NB - 1 to have Ottawa take a position. I quite agree with the Premier's view. the Government's view, that administration should he done by Ottawa. Indeed that is the view we put forth as an Administration, Hut I think we should take the watter le,:,:ally. We should take a reference. He should make a test case to see where the legal matter stands. The fact remains that it has not heen settled by negotation. It has heen on the go now since 1Q63 or 1964. The Atlantic Provinces including 0uebec for these purposes have a common position. They pressed Ottawa.

Ottawa made a proposal which v:re rejected as unsatisfactory. The provinces pressed Ottawa wi.th alternate proposals and to my knowledge have not had a reply as yet. I think, Sir. that Newfoundland owns the offshore mineral rights. I think we own them in law. 1 Delieve that we own them in policy and in equity. And I urp:e upon the Administration that they adopt a pol:tcy sayinf! that these are 100% Newfoundland's. We will let Ottawa administer them hy all means. They are better than we are nt it. We will pay them a nominal fee for administration. That is analogous to what is <lone in tax collections.

The Minister of Finance taxes through the Income Tax and the Corporation Tax, the Government of Canada collects, and we pay them a nominal fee for it. So, Mr. Chairman, these are just a few of the items that in a general way I would like to raise. There may be some of my colleagues who want to say a few words. We should say a few words ahout the Egg Marketing Board which Savoury John is going to end. Whether it will be ended or not is a matter I think we should know about. Again there are certainly two good sides to that argument. There is a case from the processors point of view for containing them.

It is a case from the consumers point of view for ending them or for changing them. The minister might, if he - I was going to say it is a hot potato hut it is certainly a warm egg. If the minister wishes to avoid having egg all over his face; might wish to say a few 1339

June 1, 1972 Tape 4!+6 NB - 2 vords on it. And then of course :r suspect that during the Estinates we will have to press the minister to some extent at least upon the situation down at the Farm Products. He all agree that negotiations can not be done puhlically. But I think the minister will have to allow us to press him a little. The situation is serious. The people who are supplying on

schedule as a roster of some sort and you bring your broilers tn one day and ~omebody else the next day, they are about to run into n crisis if they have not already. I think the Administration are going to have to act in some way. It is not for me to suggest how they should act, Sir. Our joh is to be the people who question, who prod and as hest ve can we will try. Anyway it is all for me. The nicest thing about Estimates. ~ir, is that we can keep coming back, and we will. We look fon,ard to the minister.

He is one of the more pleasant as well as one of the more able f\entlemen on the other side, and I know that he will - I am quite impressed that he is here without any of his officials. I think that is the mark of a good minister, It shows he memorized everythingif you are like a minister who once sat in this House, many years ago, whenever the Opposition asked a question as to how much was spent on this purpose last year, he would say; · oh ,$112,408.07. 1 I was up in the Press Galary then, Sir, decended somewhat since then I fear.

I remember being r:;arvellinr at this minister and marvellinp; at his command, his recall of complex details of administration. The Minister of Health, no more. than I can, can not say to the nean!:st $50,000 how much Medicare is r:oing to cost the Province. You know, you do not remember everything, you look it up when you need it, But this particular gentleman remembered these facts 1 instant recall, and I was amazed and perplexed and filled with adr.,iration. I asked Hr. Smallwood,outside the Hom,e, how does he do it? And nobody ever picked him up. He said that he was just making them up, he just went on.

We do not expect that from - Sir? 1340

June 1, 1972 Tape 446 NH - 3 HR. !'-fURI'HY: -- -- - You cannot tell a rnin:IEJter he is a liar, you know. Dh, I would not <lreaw of tellinp. a minister he is a liar, even when any of them arc, I remember the hon. Pr. Browne used to ask these questions. MR ROBERTS: Yes. Well. T saw Bill Bro-w11e the other night, down ut the Historical Societv. ile is in p:rent shape. Great shape! He and I agreed that opposition - Oh no, Pe uas in r;reat shape. We are travellinp: ar,ain. i1r. Chairman, but that .:!s part of the estimates, "our Honour will agree. Well when we come to histori.c sites we will talk ahout nil!

Browne again. Anyway Hr. Chairman. I wish the minister well, and will now turn him over to the more tender ministrations of some of my colleagues. I see the member for Bonavista North 1.s sharpening his pencil there. Hr. Chairman, if the minister could at some point in his opening vote touch uprm some of these broad topics, briefly or at lenr,th, as he wishes. There are very few other iter.is we wish to go into in any rletail at this stage, Most of our chatter will he on the 801-01 vote. Another thing the minister might vant to touch upon now or we will deal with it later as he wishes is the Gros }forne Project.

I am not asking on behalf of the memher from Greer: Bay despite the Press reports, but the minister may wish to say a few words. He has said some already which per­ haps were a little ill-chosen but he may want to make a general statement on where it stands, particularly the question of land acquisition, There is a fifty-fifty shared cost arrangement with Ottawa. Ts that to he continued? Is that to be negotiated upwards 1 which is always the hope? Delegations come to Ottawa, Sir, and delegations go from Ottawa. Ottawa goes on! The minister may want to say .a few words on that. If he wishes, Mr.

Chairman, or if you wish, we can deal with it - you know there is an item in the Estimates - but we will deal with it whenever you wish, but we would like to deal with it. Thank you! 1341

June l. 1972 Tape 446 HE - 4 Mr. Chairman, before the minister replies to some of these qmtstions and comments that we.re made by the hon. Leader of the Opposition, T would like to raise one or two matters. Hy collengue, the hon. Leader of the Opposltion~ already raised one or two of the points that I have in my notes here. But I will be interested in find:tnp; out what the policy of the new Government is on the Newfoundlnnd Eyg Marketing Board. You will recall, Hr. Chairman, that this was one of the f!lost controversial matters I suppose that has been raised in this Province since Confederation.

There i.s character assassination in the last couple of years brought about because of the fgg Narketing Board. A former premier of this Province was viciously attacked and it was said, by certnln tr.embers on the Government side of the House, to be unconstitutional and tt should be done away with. 1 would like to see now what the policy of the new Government is on this Newfoundland tgg Harketinr, Board and I woul<l also like the minister to tell us if there will be other marketing hoards set up in the foreseeahle future. Hr. Chairman, there is one point thnt I want to raise (and the hon.

Leader of the Opposition touched on this also) that I am very very concerned about, and that is the matter that was raised yesterday by the Minister of Finance in issuing ultimatums to companies both inside and outside this Province. I am thinking especially nhout the third paper railL It does not take long, Mr. Chairman, for word to get around the inter­ national husiness world of the hostile attitude of the government on this little rock here stuck out in the middle of the Atlanttc.

I think, Hr, Chairman, that the ministers and the Premier, especially the Minister of Finance should refrain from issuing ultimatums of this nature, because I think it will keep industr:i.alists and businessmen from investing in this Province. I hope, Sir, that there will be a proposal for the third paper mill i.n the near future and I hope that if that proposal is put forward that the new Government will he most receptive towards it. And, I hope they will go out of their way to see th.at we. get this third paper mill. We do have the resources to support a third and a fourth paper mill. 1342

June 1. 1972 Tape 446 NB - 5 I hope that in the future the Minister of FJnance will refrain from making these wild statements. T think he is going to do fa:::ufoundland a lot of ham in the future~ Sir. Yesterday nlso, "tr. Chairn:.an, and I would like for the minister to comment on this vhile we are goinp: dO<'>"n through the Estimates, we saw a helt-ti?htening budget and an austerity programme announced by the "Minister of Finance, yet T think the allocation in the :1ines A1,triculture and Resources Denartment for the Fishing: Lodge on the Gander River is increased. 1343

June 1. 1972. Pnge l if it is not increo.s2tl,r1r. Chairman, it is the same tHJ last ye::ir. I think the time has come - lust year the goverment in i.ts ,·isrlom decided to scale down that operation on the C;mde:r Lake, because we felt that it was not really serving any useful purpose. I would prefer, 5.h, to see the mothers of this Province get the Mothers' Allowance than the ministers of the Government down enj{;ying themselves on the Gander River. I hope thtit the Minister when he gets down to that vote :i.n the Estimates will tell us what the future of that lodge is on the Gnnder River. Mr.

Chairman, Clean Air hinter & Soil Authority~ I do not know what the problem is with the Clean Air Water & Soll Authority and the Department of Municipal Affairs. There seems to be a conflict of interest continually going on between the two departments. There seemr to be a complete breakdown in communications between the Ilepartment of Municipal Affairs and between the Clean Air Hater & Soil Authority.

I know of nrojects, Sir, that have been started b;t the Department of Hunicipal Affairs, about a month later or two months later the Clean Air Water & Soil Authority move in and am sorry but you did not consult vith us. You did not make an application to the. Clean Air Water & Soll Authority so you have to halt work on the project." It causes tremendous inconvenience Mr. Chairman, let alonl" adding to the cost nf the project.

I would like for the Minister to enlighten the House on what steps he intends to take to create a better liaison between the C1 ean Air Water & Soil Authority and the Department of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Chairman, also in the estimates there are a number of subheads where we have surveys and professional fees, surveys of Crown Lands and the like. Now, Sir, I want to issue a word of warning to the honourable Minister if he will accept my advice: Th.at when you hsve this kind of situation, you will have people in iiewfoundland especially in St. John I s who are watching these estimates like a hawk.

They will go out, Sir, and they will form dummy comp:mies, they will form new comnanies, they will put them under all sorts of strange names. They

June l, 1972. Tape 447. Page 2. will come in and try to get the contracts. You would be surprised some- times, Sir, who are behind some of these companies. The honourable Minister of Finance is well aware of what I am talkin.r: about,Sir. The Honourable Minister of Finance is well aware of it. Sir, in connection with this, I would like to ask the Minister-if the Minister is paying attention to what 1 am saying - I would like to ask the Minister, if he could tell the House _iust what lt is that Dr. Stuart Peters is doing for the Government. Dr.

Peters, if you recall, is a former deputy- minister of Mines, Agriculture & Resources, former deputy mininter of Rescouses I think. Is he a civil servant? Is he vorkinp: for private enter11rise? Is he on the pn.:,,rnll of the Government or if he is, is he allowed to go out on a contractura.l basis to private enterprise, ,iust what­ I know the Hcmourab~,~ the Premier announced that he is heading up some sort of a productivity committee, 1 think he called it. 1 would like for the honoura"'Jde 1>Llnister to tell us just what it is Dr. Peters is doing?

I mear, is this ethical,to work for private enterprise and be on the payroll of the government? So, Mr. Chairman, I know this is getting through to the honourable 1'finister of Finance 1 he cannot take ,{t. The honourable minister cannot stand the heat,! suggest he ~et out of the kitchen. If the hon. ministe~ cannot stand the heat he had better jlet out of the kitchen. I am sure.Mr. Chairman, that the honourable minister, from what he gave us i.n this House yesterday 1 is certainly not a graduate of MacLcan 1 s Advertising frol\l Bay Street in Toronto.

Such garbage we never heard the like in our lives in this House, Sir. A real 11 Tory" speech if I ever heard one. So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to give that little word of warning to the honourable minister because this is bound to happen. I would suggest that any contracts that are not already let, the honourable 1345

June 1. 1972. Tape 1,,47. Page 3. minister proceed with extreme caution, because you never know where they are going to come from 1 they will swoop dowtt like vultures when you least expect them. Hr, Chairman, there is only onE: other point that T want to make. The item in the Budget headed Bell Island, we cnn deal with that when we come to that part of the heading in the Est l TTk"ltcs. !'-1r. Chairman 1 it has always been a matter of concern to rrw Jn this Province, the farming policy that we have.

I personally feel myself, that we are not really doing enough for the farmers even thouy:h I think the ]oan has been increased to $20,000 recently i Is that correct Mr. Chairman? They are able to horrow up to $20,000. Hr. Chairman, it is my own thinking that WO should start using our creative minds in this Province. I do not think that we are doing enough to get farms started in Newfoundland. The Premier may be interested in this. I a:m so happy he remained in his seat this afternoon nnd did not take off after the question period - I think myself,Hr.

Chairman, that what we really should do, the government should do, is start up a farm, start it up themselves. Mr. Chairman, there. is the junior member for Harbour Hatn - Mr. Chairman, I am sure the honourable member will never make the senior cabinet he is lucky if he makes the junior cabinet~ 1346

June l, 1972, Tanc l148, Pap;e 1 - apb "" The Premier hns his enr cocl-·cd over there, ~fr. Chninnan, liste.ninr to whnt 1 am about to say. You know. I thinl: the Prcr;iier has a little bit of n. cre.=:itive i1ind. He corr:es through fairly well on T. V. !!at so good in the House. but his television image is not too bad. i,.avbe he wi) 1 steal this idea and go out and we rnny hear hin out tomorrow telling the people of Newfoundland that this is his idea. It is an original idcn, but I thinl( the government should stnrt up farr.s. and then turn them over to people. Eecnuse. there is no way in my opinion, Pr.

Chairman. and I rr..ay he wron;::,(some people belonp:i.ng to me were farmers) th0rc is no way that, but a !"lan is defeated, Before he starts, he is alre;idv defeated financial]v or psycholop:ically.

The hon. memher for Bonavista North here could probably elaborate on what I am about to say, but I think myself, what the government should really do is f!O out and develop a farm, start it up and then take out a couple and sav; "here you po, here i.s a farm now you r:o ahead and operate it." Then they should go on and develop another farr:i and say to another couple: "Herc is the farm." There are too many obstructions thrown in the wav of peonle who want to start un farms. I think this is the only way we are ever r:oinr: to develop the farming industry in this province, }1r. Chairman.

AN HON. ~'E!·!BER: (Inaudible) HR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. ?Cntleman ... That is rip.ht. You know, }1r. Chairman, there is another suggestion I would like to make to the hon. Minister. I do not think that we have really gone enough into greenhouses in this province. The hon. minister did me the honour of cominf( to Bell Island. I am not sure if he came over in the October election, but he certainly came over in the !>'arch 211th. election. l·'R. CROSDIE, }larch 24th. I was rr:ore interested in that election. Yes, that is ri~ht.

The hon. minister came to Bell Island and I think he visited two or three of the greenhouses. 1347

June 1, 19721 Tnpe 448, Pape 2 ~- nph I saw the tush:rooms. Yes, that in r::!.;.;ht, n;:vl found out that they were there and we are just waitirp: for one larµe e;:;,eu;::;h ... (Inaudible) Pr. Chn:irnnn, the hon. tembers rea:Uv think this ts fmmy. You know, they think it is funny, One day they come out nnd they slash the oothers 1 allmmnce 1 they put up the price of tobacco, they brinr in a great Tory Eudpet int:o this House of Assemblv and then they coci in the next day full of 1nuphtcr. 1t is a lauph::ine matter.

The people of Newfoundl:rn<l will show the hon. minister and his collenrwes what a laup,hing mntter this is. MR. YURPHY· , ______ -- ~ - uJ~e they shoued them in Farch. Puttinr: a tax on the candy llars. It is ve.ry funny, ;'-ir. Chairnrm, very funny indeed! !fr.

Ch:drman, when I am finished with the hon. }finister of 'Finance in the Budget debate, I will tell hit1 all about chocolate bars and Newfoundland lease- hack. and Fas tern Provincial Airways, When I am through with the hon. nember he will ei.ther come over and sit on the other side of the House ap:ain or he will run out that door and hide and never show his face back i.n this House of Asscmhly again. HR. PURPHY: Fhat item are we on now, Hr. Chairman? iT~· NEARY·_ Can you imagine, Nr. C'hnirman, little Newfoundland subsidizing an airline in the Atlantic Provinces?

Little Newfoundland and we cut out the mothers 1 allowance. The Premier .looks at me quizzicallv but that is a fact, refinanced recently,$12 million. I did not hear the hon. minister mention that in his speech. mention that in his speech yesterday~ The hon. minister did not FR • f,1URPHY • __ ,_,,_, __ _ I did not hear the hon. member vote against it. Vtho did it? Who did the dirty deed? 1--!R. NEA.'R.Y c ------- It was the hon. member's family compact that did the dirty deed. 1348

June 1, 1972, Tape 448, Pa~e 3 -- apb rm·». HlTRPHY: I doubt that, but the great Li!,cral f:overnme.nt .•. PP '~""·-'-· Ah: Pr. Chairman, they tried to get us to sell out to Quebec /1,ir. What a devious scheme that was, hut thnt backfired. That bnc}fired in thPir faces. A}J HON. }fF~fBER: Tell us all about it. -~ --------- I have a rude awnkeninp- for the hon. minister. AN HON. }{£1'!J3ER· Be careful. NEAP,Y: The hon. minister will regret the dny that he ever singled out Bell Island. Welfare recipients not only went to Circular Road, ~fr.

Chairman, I can assure the hon. ministf'.r of that . .tT:.·_J'llF!_HY: Very little of it went to St. John's Centre either, I vill p:uarantee you that. MR. NEARY: Anyway, Pr. Chairman, a.s 1 was ••. irq_. CHAIR!-f.AN: --··~------- ❖ Order~ The hon. member has a certain amount of leeway 1n discussing the general management of the dcpartr:ient whose estimates are under consideration. However, there is the question of- relevancy there and if the hon. menber will keen that in mind. Yes, r-1r. Chairman, I npprecintt' your rulinp: but what can you do, }tr. C:hairman? What can you do when you have such irnoramuses?

HP. •• Cll.AifU,fAN: I bPlieve the hon. member is pennittt:>rl to address an hon. member as iP.nora.nt,if it can he established, but 1 th1nk'.ignoramus is considered to be n lable which is unparliamentary. AN H()N. HEHBER: Sit down, sit down. H]L._,~Jl.Y, Anyway, l'r. Chairman - l'r. Chairman! l-'r. Chairman! are they invoking closure in this House? JAR. PARSHALL: On a Point of Order, }1r. Chairman. When the Speaker or the Chairman of Committee is addressinr members, the tr.ember who is on his feet is supposed to sit down. The hon. member understands that and the hon. neMber should comply with the rules. !.fR.

NEARY! There is the treat expert on the rules of thP House. 1349

June 1, 1972, Tape 448, Page 4 -- apb Nr. Chai:nnnn. HR. ROBERTS· He has a lot to learn over there too. -··---·- ----·-· - l!f~!_Y_:, 1'1r. Chain,an, when I w2s so rudely interrupted I was talking about greenhouses. I think, Sir, despite the. fact that the hon. Premier thinks it is funny, I think that ..• HR. MOORES: You lost me in between, that is all. HR. NEARY: I think that we should get rwre into greenhouses. With the climatic conditions that ue have in this province, Sir, I think that ue should lean more towards p:reenhouses.

I do not know whether the hon. minister has this in his - I do not know if the hon. minister has it. .. (Inaudihle) .?-~~l::1!_!.~Y· t'r. Chairman, if I could only get a mushroom large enough to nut in the openinf, but I am sure, Sir, they do not r:row them thnt lar~e. H(• will have to settle for a zipper. t1~-~~J1.l:1!.!1IJ_:: This should be a repular one hour laugh-in. ~~-~-~_RY: Hr. Chairman, I would like the hon. minister to tell us whether they intend to develop the greenhouse programme. The hon. minister - we are not talking about swimmini:: pools, Yr. Chairman, we are talking about greenhouses.

We are not talkini about golf courses we are talking about greenhouses. The minister inspected two or three preenhouses on Bell Island and I am sure that he was impressed with what he saw. I would like to inform the minister thnt they are now growinp: tomatoes there and I hope that in another month or so, thev will be providing tomatoes on the local market. Yr. Chairman, I would love for the hon. minister to come over to Bell Island and perhaps he and I could hnve our pictures taken together, while they are pickinp the ton:atoes. The hon. minister is one of our favourites on this side of the House.

He has not nade n mess of things like the ~rini.ster of Education or the Minist0r of Social Services. He has not become a source of er:ibarrnssnent like the Minister 1350

June 1, 1972, Tape 448, Page 5 ~- arb of Finance. Ile is one of our f;wourites and we are not going to he toe hnrd on him in the estimates. Just one other point 1 uant to raise, Sir. before 1 tr:1h:: mv seat nnd that is undPr the heading; Wildlife ParL 1 do not think the hon. minister is tnlkinr about Elizabeth To-uers. I am sure it is the wildlife nark at Hhith:mrne that is - On the s,dmonier line.

On the Salmonicr Une and I would 1.ike to ask the minister if he could tell the House uhetlwr - I notice nost of the vote is for C!l'Pital $90.000 - whether this is being established as a tourist attraction or is it lie1nr, established for research purposes? If so, if it is and I ap:ree with it, ~tr. Chaiman. T agree it would make an excellent tourist nttraction nnd T would lJke to know if it is going to operated on n year-round basis, DOODY: I hnve just been assured by the hon. editor of the •·Daily ~evs that it is a to1rrist Attraction. MR. l'JFARY· /I tourist attraction?

Hell then I conrratulatc the former mlnister for taking the initintive in cstahlishinr: this ui.ldlife pad·, and I am sure that it will he a rrent, ~reat tourist attraction. I would like to see it operated on a vear-.round basis. I thinlt S9n,ono capital is probably to put up Rome buildinrs and so forth, but maybe a Jot of the animals will he spendint!' the winter out of doors. I nn sure that a J0t of school children will come from all over Nc.v.foundland to sec the wild­ life park dm,zn on the Salmonier Line. 1351

June L 1972 MR. MURPHY: That was excellent. MR. DODDY: 1s it all right? Tape 449 t'f~:...!~_f.l:[Y_: When the Chairman calls the - MR. DOODY: Ha•, T speak t:,enernt:ing this, Mr. fhairmnn, or do I wait until you call the number? I was particularly impressed with the cataleguinp: of all the thinp;s that needed to be done with the department and all the problems that Newfoundland was facing with its based resources,by the Leader of the Opposition. He was nctin$! minister for a little while during the interregnum while we were waiting for the new order to take over and the lip_ht to shine in the province.

I ap.ree wholeheartedly that the biggest single problem is the forest tenure system or the lack of mana~ement with the forest problems. I am sure that the honourable House will be pleased to learn, Mr. Chairman, that we have,with the assistance of the JH - federal authorities,establishe<l a giant provincial-federal forestry committee and they are going to provide tremendous help and assistance in rationalizing the problems we have with the forest system in Newfoundland. The previous administration, 1 must say in all fairness. spent considerable time in trying to find a way out of that tangled web.

The years and years of indifference which were finally started to he sorted out during the declining years of the previous administration brought forward some, I would say in my limited experience, some very tangable suggestions which could very well be of great assistance in this matter of great importance. The present paper companies, the two existin?, paper companies I think are just as concerned or possibly more so than the honourable members of this House, if that is possible, in rationalizing: the timber resources and timber reserves of this province.

I do not really think in the short discussions that T have hnrl and that our people have 1352

June 1, 1972 Tnpe 4MJ had with them since we took office, T do not honestlv feel that they are all thnt anxious to hold al.l these large reserves of um:m.nageable and unproductive wood lots. I think that they would he very pleased indeed if they could find a way out of the t.ti1derness 1 inst ns we t.'ould One of the thin!!s that mfr:ht iust create the openinr, that we need will he the loosening up of these crown lands which have been heli! as a third mill reserve since, I think it was 1960.

The fact that the Government of ~lewfoundland has on occasion taken frm:1 or borrowed from Bowaters and Price stands of timber which were used for saw r.iill production or for other sources, for other rea5ons ;md at the same time blocked up the entire East Coast as a third mill reserve was not the sort of move that encouraged Tlowaters and Price to feel th<tt the Government was acting in good faith.

While it is true that there are stands of timber that nowaters and Price hold which prohahly will never be used by the~ or for them nevertheless one cannot help but be sympathetic to their stand when they diz in their heals and say, ' 1 He have p:one so far but no further. 1 am pleased to announce that we see some lessentnr in this stance and the rigidity of the stance and I feel that we will he makinp: great progress alonr these lines. I agree with the honourable Leader of the Opposition when he says that this is possibly the single most important thing that we have to deal with in the department.

Possibly the second greatest urgency down there and possibly could very well be the greatest is the offshore limits, the ownership of our resources in the offshore areas of Newfoundland. The previous administration has f;iven out in interim permits which in effect were orders-in-council to legitimate operators as well as to speculators,who may very well prove to be legitimate if they get the opportunity, the entire offshore linits as claimed by Newfoundland. These interim permits which were 1353 .TH - 2

June 1, 1972 Tape 449 JE - 3 in effect sinply orders-in-council vith no restriction worth while were in effect complete give aways. Pretty close to seventy per-cent of them have heen given tc two people whose na"l'les are not corrmletely unfaniliar to Newfoundlanders right now. I think the Shaheen interests have been passed out sornethinp in excess of forty per-cent cf our offshore linits. Mr. Doyle got a sizeable share and there are other companies who have yet to prove themselves as legitimntc opcrntors who have also been given substantial offshore limits.

What is most unfortunate is the fact that isood,sounrl,solid investors such as Anico, Texeco, Esso have to suffer the stir.m:1 and do business with these people in order to protect their investment and their interests. We have had occasion during the p;:ist weeks to issue warnini,:s to these manipulators who w.i.11 try to move these concessions off to the le~itimate operators.

We have warned them that we will not respect r.or reco~ni7,c these transactions and at the same time we have emphasized the fact that such transactions that were entere<l into in good faith by these oper;i,tors, the Amico people I mention again. the Esso people, these people who have entered in good fnith into negotiations with the speculators and manipnlators,this rovernment, of course, as nll o+ Newfoundland will agree, we must treat them in tood faith n.nd encourage them to work for the interest of the province out in our offshore reserves. It is a weird and wonderful thing. Mr.

Chairman, to get a look nt the offshore reserve map as it is outlined down in he Department of Mines. As the honourable Leader of the Opposition savs~it makes a very pretty picture with all the different colours and the little letters blocked in from place to place. It does have one rationalization about it? it is done on the r,rid square system an<l when the rer,u1ations which our committee is now working on,when these regulations n.re posted the adminstration of these areas will be relatively simple. 1 must 1354

June 1 ~ 1972 Tnpe 449 J~ - 4 assure the hononrahle Lender of the Oppositfon anrl nll members of this honourable House, Sir, that we are workinp- with grc<1t urpcncv with the intent of impr0ssin1: upon Ottawa the fact that these offshore resources are indeed owned hy Newfoundland just as our onshore re.sources are owned by :'Jewfoundland.

While we recognize the fact thnt Ottawa does indeed have jurisdiction on the waters and could very well have the expertise and knowledge nnd ahility to administer them for a fee 1 neverthcless we must stress at a11 times that these offshore rescmrccs are Newfoundland's an<l believe me, Sir. it is our intention to negotiate with Ottawa on these terns. The onshore minernl concessions which were also raised by the honourable Leader of the Opnosition -arc a somewhat different mnttcr. Thev do not ho:vP pretty little coloured squares but they have preat hir; hugh coloured squigp:lcs which arc passed out 1355

June l 1972, Tape 450 P;,ge l. without rationalization or reason. Scr:e of the concessions thnt were nassed out were aDt;olute1 v huge~ The cinwunt of money that is renuired under t.he terns of these 1:oncessions tu b2 invested in development ni an exrih1rotion is r,athet:ica11v small. There are huge concessionaires who aTE: tn effect broke.rs, middlemen, who have heen given the natural n:s0t.rccs of :,lewfonndlnnci fr,-r no f:i:xed fee, with no benefit to the Prov:fm:e,to make a profit for themselves as they in turn farmed them out to oth(:r ie~itlmnte,good,reasonabJe developers anJ explorers.

It is the intenti.on of this a.dr:dnistra.tion to rationalize this system of concessions, by setting the Province up into the same type of grid square system that is now in effect in the offshore areas. This wi 11 have the advantage of being more ensily admini.stered and also ve wi 11 be able to hopefullv get a gr-id snuare rental from the explorers and developers. T.t in not the intention of this adminl.strn.tir.'n to frighten away leg1 ti mate npcratorn. Quite the contrary!

This ls probo.b l v the first onportunitv that good 1decent,legitimate onerat0rs have had tn deal vdth " government th:1t is sincere1v interested in the development of the resource industries of the Prnvint:efl,,:lm wi l1 si.t dnwn and talk to them in a rational vav nnd will not nass out concessions bv impu~se or bv f.iat, \,,'e have had 0ccas.ion during the past few ~-:eeks to have disc:usskins with several mining compn. ,1es who have expressed great delight in knowing that last the Province of Newfoundland is attempting tn rationalize the concession svstem and establish this modified concession system of grid snnure rental and cont-rol.

We raise the. s:1me polnt,Mr. Chairman, while we were tn Ottawa recently and found that the Department of Mines and Energy vere just as enthusiastic as we nre a.rnJ as the legitimate mining companie8 are. It was n str:mr,e and wonderful th:!ng to know that the concessions in N wfoundland for vearr, hnd hcen passed out from the ci:;;hth floor with 1356

June 1, 1972. Tnpe 450 Page 2. little or no reference tri tbe ta.lent and z:fr,tlity of thnt dcp,1:rtment of mines.

Very often they uere infon;ae.d ;1ftcr tbe fnct, were asked to drnw the squ1gg1e5 on the n;;,.p to outline the 2raai,: thnt were f'','.l,SSed out tn thes0 pO'wer brokers hy the then occupants oi the eighth floor. must at this time, <;i.r, pay mv respect and my comp]i!:lents to the people in both the Poresrrv Division ,ind the Mininp Divis:1-on fur being ahle to function as wel] ns they have u:Hler the verv Jifficult circ.1.m:stances. ~m.A.'.1l'RPHY: 1 think t1rn.t is worth repentinp: to nut on the rccon.ls. PR .DOODY: Thank you, very much, Sir.

We hnve also now to move back to the. forestry thing for a moment tn refer to rur hope. nf setting up as nvmv of these small sm-:mill operations rts we rnss-thly can. It :ls our hope to eventually expand the resource development hank t{1 a position where it can help those neonle in Newfoundl;md who are anxious to help themselves. There are a p:reat manv people in that <tre.a. iJhncever the size of the sm,;mill itself how big n mill is a snall operatHr,is a matter that ls now under studv.

The feasibiU tv of a m:iaU mill of c.ounc 0is something that has to be studie<i very carefully. lt is the intention of this administration to help those people to e::.tnh lish themselves in the suwmi11 industrv and we have nude some strides Ln that ,'11rection already. We have hnd the gnod fortune to secure,for the Department of fort:strv, a Director of Foro.,:;try. The previous minister laboured for some. years without a Director of Forestry. I hnve no idef! how he manap,ed it. I must compliment hi.m on his patience and erldurance.

But we have accorr.plished three things I believe 1.n that are.a since we have secured the nervices of Mr. R. Sheppard. It is an amazing thing indeed how the morale of that division has improved and how many blocks of timberland we did not know were in existence~ or the department did not seem to know were in e.xistence 1 Mr. Sheppard has managed to locate nnd find for these small sawmill operators. Once ar-ain, of course, when we tnlk about tlia sn:wmill operators we have to come back to the third mill reserve. 'fhat is the t:ev to the 1357

June l, 1972. Tape 450 Page 3. whole picture.Once that block of land ii~ freed up and we are in a position to use it for negotiation and for dealing with both saw-like operatnrs and with the paper companies, I feel that we will be a lot further along the road to the rationnlization that we snoke of earlier. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition snoke of Mr. Reid and the Reid lots and of the fact that he was in to see htm and presented hir:i with a hill for $46,000,000, I can only interpret the fact that he brought a bill into me for $30,000,000 as a fact that he is aware of Mr.

Crosbie 1 s discipline Budget,as the rest of us, and expects a great deal less from the present ndministration. The document that was presented to me 1s a weird and wonderful document" It is under study now hy various people in the administration The more I study it the more .:1mazed I am • I would like to mention just a few of the items in there 1 as Mr. Reid arrives or his consultants at the figure. I might say in all fairness to the Reid neople that this S30,000,000 to them was a starting point in negotiation.

It may very well be that we will negotiate down to the dollar that the honourable Leader of the Opposition suggested. That is something that has 1·0 be decided. The document itself, as I say, is a vonderful piece of work, in keeping with the claims they made, the value of the wildlife on the Reid lots, the value of the water reserves, the timber above the ground and the minerals below the ground. The wildlife claims them­ selves are worthy of some small note. They talk about thirty rabbits per square mile at a dollar each.

One moose per square mile at three hundred and some dollars. 1 must say it is one of these small fringe benefits of this department. Whenever I am very depressed I take it out and read it, put it down again and get back to the sixteen or eighteen hour day that ~ir. Callahan is so aware of. On the Clean Air, Water & Soil Authority that the honourable member for Bell Island mentioned, 1 w:i.sh I were in a position to enlighten him 1358

June l, 1972. Tape 450 Page t,,. as Lo its entire functtons and its canacities and cap-0ahJlities. It has a strange function in the departrr.ent in ct!'i mu '1 as it reports only to the minister. The manager of the Clean Air Water & Soil Authority reports only to the minister, not to any of the deputies. They are quartered in a huildjng in the Elizabeth Towers, some distance from us. I think that that is one of the areas of government chat the productivity committee will be looking at very closely. I hope to incorporate it more fully into the functions of government.

There is no doubt in our minds or in any of our minds that the protection of the environment and the management of our water resources is of vital importance to the Province. W1:1ether tbev should he :managed under the present system of the Clean Air Hater & So-fl Authority leaves a r,reat deal to be desired The present system is not really a system at nll. lt is a

section of government that is almost divorced from government. It is something that we have to look at, ns I say, very closely. The hon. member mentioned the Janper of getting involved in dumrv companies. and the fact that they nre goinp to descend,on us in prent numbers. I will have to accept his word for that. I will look at it very carefully. with his experience in the previous administration ther 1 is bound to he superior knowledge of such licenses~ such companies as Societe Tnmssh:ippinr,, Bankers Trust nnd other such organ i zat:ions.

This is one thing that we did inherit from the previous administration that will he heltiful in a negative sort of way. If nothing else we have learned to be aware of all these weird and wonderful people that come in with the tall tales and fancy stories. He is concerned ahout the Gander Rlver cabin, which wi ~,l cost the government this year $10}600. As 1359

June l, 1972 Tape. no. 451 Page l - MRW I understand that from the Department of Tourist Development this cabin serves a very useful function and a public relations sort of an area. I do not imagine that there would be very many of the dabinet ministers of this a.drainistration spending much time da-,,m there. Maybe this is the practice in the past but I feel that they will find a great deal more useful things to do with their time. The wildli fo park which the honourable member mentioned I thinL is one of the more delightful inheritances of this department. It is a proiect for the Salmonicr Line.

I might mention by coincidence that it just happens to be within the boundary of the District of Harbour Main ,. These coincidences happen from time to time. It is and will be a tourist attraction as well as a source of joy to our own people. It is built to a large extent along the model of the Wildlife Park at Rustico, Prince Edward Island, those of you who are familiar with that. It will approach the natural state as much as possible. I can assure the honourable member that there will be cages there. They will be as discreet as possible to keep the animals in. We can always reserve one.

We are more concerned with you right now, Sir, because you are such a concern for me. It is though I think and will be a tremendous attraction. I am looking forward to it. I think it will add a lot to the tourist potential of the province, The help for farmers and the help for fartt'S is a matter of great concern to this administration as the honourable member knows. We have been talking about it during the two campaigns and we are working actively now to find or try to find ways and means of doing it.

We are trying to convince the Farm Credit Corporation of the Federal Government that they should open an office here to talk to our farmers. We have not made a great deal of progress with that hope. In the meantime we are expanding and looking forward to expanding our own provincial loan board and eventually incorporating it hopefully into the resource development 1360

June I, 1972 Tape no. 451 Page 2 M:r. Doody. bank whicn we look forward to creating. The Farm Products Corporation which has received a great deal of attention lately is an on-going cost to government and probably will be for some time. Its value can only be assessed in the entire agricultural picture. If Farm Products is discontinued or goes out of business for some reason or other, then, of course, the broiler industry, the hog industry and other related areas of agriculture will become,for all practical purposes, nonexistent.

I do not honestly feel that this is the wish either of the government or of the opposition. We will do all we possibly can to keep Farm Products active while we examine it very closely , with an intention to minimize its losses and if at all possible to put it on a paying footstep. The mushroom complex on Bell Island is also worthy of note • As I said, I visited with the good people on Bell Island during the last election and they were good .enough to invite me down to see them and they were very careful to explain'! 11These mushrooms were not the mushrooms of the Government of Newfoundland but that they were Mr.

Neary's mushrooms!' AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) • MR, DOODY: That ia right. The hon~urable member was Rood enou2h to allow me to look at them. It is unfortunate perhaps that this mushroom project was not handled by the Department or Division of Agriculture. yet to be demonstrated that it in - MR, MURPHY: MR, DOODY: _MR. MURPHY: Labour intensive? I beg your pardon. Labour intensive· induatrv? It has MR, DOODY: It could very well be, if it were properly handled. It has n~t been disproved or proven to anybody's satisfaction that the thing is or is not a viable operation.

The trouble with it is that it became a sort 1361

June l, 1972 Tape no. 451 Page 3 of an advertising campaign* Either through accident or design ,Sir, it became a matter of grnvc i:mpnrtance to tho press and to the public and eventually "mushrooms 11 became a laughing stock for the area, I do not know if it was by accident or by design. lt is nevertheless an unfortunate occurrence and I hope that the Department of Agriculture does get an opportunity to look at the whole project. MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: by the Well I was dealing with Community and Social Development. I was under the impression that it was done directly MR. NEARY: Mr.

Walter 1 s in the Department of Community and Social Development has a copy there of everything that l have, MR. DOODY: Oh, good, that will simplify :matters. The hot houses or green­ houses are an on-going project of the Department of Agriculture. It is true that Bell lsland has received some of these hot houses and as the honourable member mentioned, they are handy and hopefully of some assistance to the economy of that part of the province.

It may be that they are not as expensive as some of the expenditures that were made from otfler departments on the island prior to the election but I think that they will be a project that will have a longer- lasting effect. The Egg Marketing Board that has been mentioned is something that is worthy of consideration. As soon as it was mentioned I began a shiver of anticipation because the whole project is something else that has been clouded in in political rhetoric,that has yet to be demonstrated exactly what type of structure is best for the Province of Newfoundland in its agricultural ambitions or desires.

The Newfoundland Marketing Board should not be confused with the Egg Marketing Board as has happened in the past and will continue ta happen while they carry this name. Anyway the position of this government, of this administration, with regard to marketing generally and the egg marketing situation in particular has not been finalized. We are looking at it very closely. It is the desire and the hope of the Division of Agriculture to conduct a comprehensive inquiry 1362

Jone l, 1972 Tape no. 451 Page 4 into the whole marketing arrangement. 1 think that: these generally, Sir, are the answers to ;:;ome of the inqciries and questions of the honourable members acrnfls the House. If there are some specific inquiries or questions other than these that they want answered I will certainly do my very upmost to accommodate them. MR THOMS: Mc Chairman, just to say a few uords on the estimates, I failed to see anything radically wrong along the lines of the estimates. However, there are a few points that I would like to make. Just to start off.

I would like for the honourable minister to give us the name of the executive assistant who I note is getting a salary of $10,000. I do not believe we know his name yet. Maybe the honourable minister could give us his name when he answers any questions that I may ask him. MR. DOODY: That has already been tabled, Mr. Chairman~ but his name is Mr, A. C. Rockwell. MR. CllAIRMAN: (BARRY): The general discussion arising on the first resolution coming from the estimates must be general and not specifically referrable to a particular item of estimate.

Discussion or tiebate on a specific item must wait until this item is called and is before the committee. MR. THOMS: Mr. Chairman, I note that the honourable minister was talking about the interim· permits of the Continental Shelf, that is in relation to the oil on our Continental Shelf. Some of the members of the present government have more or less taken the past administration over the coals for issuing these permits, these interim permits. I know also that we in Newfoundland lay claim to approximately sixty per cent of the Continental Shelf. These permits were given out a few years ago.

I would like to point out to this House that these were the first permits issued. They were issued even before the federal government issued any permits. Just the fact that we issued these permits I believe gives us a special claim to them. I believe we can go to Ottawa and hope that this present administration can go to Ottawa with this in mind. This may give them a little mc:e fire, 1363

June 1, 1972. Tape 452. Page 1 -- npb ct little T'lore fuel when thev meet the Federal Government nnd try to r,et wh;nev<,r they possih.lv c1n from anv re,wurces that we h;;_vc on the Continentrr1 Shelf. I was quite happy when I heo.rd the n:inister sny that he is givinr: special attention to sawmill industries in our Province, We have <mite a number of men in our Province who have in the past years operated sawmills, small mills. anywhere frorr: six men up. Tt is very hard T helicve the present mlministrntion is iwinp to find it very hard to classify what is considered a small mi11 or a big operation.

T doubt very much if you cnn do it. I would not wnnt to see it hein;:c done. unless,of course, some onts:i.de interest comes in and stnrts some hup.c operation, therefore taking the husiness away from our local neopJe. I sincerelv hope that we µill set up some sy.rte111 so thnt we can helo these smnll operators financinlly nnd especially as fnr as tiriher is concerned. AN HflN. Vf!,1BER · ,1p. THi1;""1S • (Innudit'le) An Average of 120 to 125 !r!en involved, hoth in the r.iill and fo the forest portion. ?fr.

Chairman, I have wnlired throurJi m.anv of whnt I consider the virp,in stands of especinlly fir logs in our province and we have sufficient fir stands in this province to supply at least ninety-five percent of the timber that our province todav needs. I once worked in Labrador West and it hurns me nnd hurts me ;.,hen I realize the aznount of timber that was destroved in that district. I am sure the hon. memher for that district realizes the benu't:iful stands of black spruce that were cut, burned, hull.dozed over and covered over. I an not nuite sure if he is ;n:are of it, but this is a fact. AN HON.

TfFHBfR: Why was that done? For anythinr, m:i.ninp:, tot>tnsi tes, railways, roads. The forest wns not taken and used whatsoever, it was _;ust destroyed. 1 m:1 ouite sure the same thing still exists. 'Cnfortumtte1v I ngree with you, ves, hut it is too had we did not p;et some kind of a sa,;,.,'mill 1364

.Tune 1, 1972, Tape t,52, Pap:e 2 --- aph operation in there because then, was a huge mnrket for timber in the L,J,rador Fest /\rec1.. Hr. f'hciin,;;_n. 1 would 11.ke to touch for a r:1i.nute iF I cin.y on the ''"evfoundln.nd Fnrm Products r:ornoration~ Here we hnvc T believe one of the most serious nroblems to deal 1rith in the Depnrtnent of 1\rcdculture thnt ue have had for a lonr time~ I wns hopinr to vive sone focts the other duy when 1 w;i.s .nskjnp: n question. Of course. T wns internmted t,y the hon. rwrnher for St. John 1 s fast. We have ,1ome producers, hop nroducers and Pro iler nroducers who. 11r.

Chairman. have everything they own mortpaged. Yost of them have even their own homes nortrar,ed. Fvt~rv acre of ]and thev have. they have it rnortr,arred. through vm:i.ous orranizations nrnl esreciallv through the Farm Credit Corporation. The Federal Farm Credit Corporation has helped these people trewendously and they have vi.ven them what most of the farmers in Newfoundland consider hurc loans. Tf anvthinr, hnppens to this operation. if this operation continues to he closed rlown for n.nv, even a short neriod of tine, it throws a rr:onkcy wrench into the 1:holc operation.

It threr1tens the economv of manv of these pr0duc.ers and some of them. ar; I stated the other day. at lenst one man is ncnr:i.np: or is approaching h:mknmtcv. 1365

June 1, 1972 Tape 453 I do not think this is the fault of any member of the previous government with the exception, of course, of the Minister of Finance. I do lay the blame. on hi.m. T believe something should have been done to at least get this operation going because this is a very ticklish situation. You have a broiler producer who hns 24,000 chicks and he is given a date by the Newfoundland Farm Products to have his broilers at the slaughter house.

Now each producer is given a date and of course they aim at these dates and I believe most of them keep these dates and if these chicks are not taken from this JM ~ 1 producer then he has to keep them in his house and thev become overweight and he has to pay out rnoney for extra feed and extra labour. This also interfers with his future programme because he has to c.lean out his present houses, he iws to disinfect it in preparation for new chicks to come and if the date arrives when he receives these new chicks and he still has the old hens on hand well then he must destroy them some way or other.

There is one producer of broilers who at this present moment is considerinr digging a big pit with a bulldozer and coverinµ: up 24,000 broilers. Now this at a cost of $1.20 per broiler is $28,800 and if you had the $250.00 that it is costing him every day to feed these broilers you see that this producer will lose something over $30,000. Now this I believe is a deplorable situation. I believe soething should be done about it immediately and I sincerely hope and trust that the present Minister of Mines.

Agriculture and Resources can feed to the honourable Minister of Finance something even if it is some kind of a drink to get him to be a little more lenient, to get him to sit down and converse with these people so that this operation can once ar,ain become productive. This I think, Mr. Chairman, is one of the most important things that we should consider at this present time. I may add, Mr. Chairman, 1366

June 1, 1972 Trine 453 .JM - 2 that there are fiftv other proc1ucers of broilers and hogs in approximately the sane situation only they hzivc nnrf' time. He have anothe.r prorluce.r with 22.000 birds supposed to come into the plant on ~tonilny rr:orn1n,r: comin,r: 1 and then of course a fe'w days after another one and so on and these people keep this plant operating. Of course, if the situation arises, Sir, thnt we cannot get this operation goinp then next week or the week after people in the St. 3olm I s nnd the Avalon Peninsula area wiJl be roing without a chicken dinner.

Kentucky fried chicken and pork chops and the other prnrluce from this plant. Hr. Chairman, in arrlculture I helieve the pnst administration hnd done ouite a fot in the form of ngr1cul ture. Of course there wns never a need, ,·my real need in "-Jewfoundl,mrl before this last four or five years to really ndd anv farm programme .in Newfounrll:md hecause really and sincerely we did not have any re11J famers nnd I rlo not want to insult anv of the smaller oner.ntions at all hec.--mse T believe they playetl. a very irnnortant nnrt.

But it ts only recently that we have been producing enour,h ergs to feed our own population and T understand that last yenr we exported some. It was only last year thnt we produced enoufrh turnips for the province although we have always had storage problems and thi.s is the reason we had to import some over the winter months. Potatoes, t douht very reuch if we will ever produce enough ;ind many other farm products.

But I must say that today there is a real need, it is more urpent today for our p,ove:nnment to have a real f,1m programme, to have a real farm assistance pror,ram:ne to help the farmers of our province who hav~ been working really on a small scale for so many years and who are now ready and willing and most of them quite nble to carry on hurh operations which will not only eploy themselves but will employ many others. This, of co,trse, is proven in the hroi 1 er operation. 1 would li!•e to also touch on a farming project that is a little 1367

June 1, 1972 Tnpe 453 JM ~ 3 closer to my district, Mr. Chairman. and thnt is the blueberry industry. In the blueberry industry one

section of my district produces quite nn amount of blueberries every year. There is no other ind11str:;, no other industry in Newfoundland or in the world that can scatter the dollars and cents to every member of the family, to every member of the community like the blueherry industry. The father can make a poo<l days wages picking blueberries, the mother and everv child that can walk over the blueberry barrens.

While I note there is an increase in estimates for this year I would certainly like to see even a larger increase and I am sure ns this industry develops the present minister will make sure thnt there are substantial increases, Hr. Chairman. while we will p:o throurJ1 the estimates iteM by ite."T! there is really not too much that I cnn say nt the present time although I believe there is just one little thing that I have overlooked anrl this is very important as far as the Farm Products Corporation is concerned. Would I be correct. Mr.

Chairn.:m, if I said that the reappointment of the Board of Directors should have taken place on approximately April 1 of this year and if so, is there any consideration ~iven to reappointing them? MR. DOODY: Yes, we have considered. Of course there are two considerations and one is addressed to reappointing the present Board of Directors who are all civil servants and verv capable people but who have pretty onerous duties of their own. The Deputy Minister of Finance for instance i.s a member of the board as 1 understand it and Mr. Rupert Prince is very active with the Department of Fisheries.

Is it is in the best interest of the farmin~ industry that these people be on the Board of Directors of Farm Products or is it possibly in the best interest of the farming community if the povernment were to depart froM the old order and launch out tn a riew direction and possibly appoint the representative of the broiler industrv and the 1368

-Tune L 1972 Tape 453 representative of the hog industry on the Board of Directors? These are policy thin_r,s that we arc discu::;sin_g and deliberatinp- nnd that is the only reason why the apnointments hnvc not been rtirrde. 1369

Sune L 1972 ~R Tape 454 NB - ! HR. W. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, just one or two brief matters I would like to deal with. I do not think we are wasting the time of the House in this gener1l dr:h:i.te because as a result of clarifying the various issues that can come up ir, some detail under the rn:inisterinl salary and rhe minister's office) I think then we can go through the estimates very quickly and our body of experier. ~-e. that we have built up over the last few years has indicated this.

I do not think ve are wasting the time of the House by members of the House now airing our general and even specific views in this general debate. The Minister of Justice is always impatient when it comes to the Opposition discussing something. He was the same way when he was over there with us and he is the same way now. When he was in Opposition though he liked to take his fair share of the time of the House. MR. HICKMAN: Inaudible. MR. W. ROWE: Hell, just be happy that your name enters the record of the House once more. Mr.

Chairman, I would like to compliment sincerely the Minister of Mines Agriculture and Resources on the exposition he has given the House this afternoon on the number of matters which come under his jurisdiction. I would 1:f.ke to make one point about the offshore permits which he mentioned. These as he has indicated are interim permits given by Order-in-Council. Of course it goes without saying that an Order-in­ Council can be rescinded by Order-in-Council. I am sure that there is not one man on this side of the House now who in a legitimate case would decry any of these Orders-in-Council being rescinded.

For example, and I do not think that we would fall in this Province under the hane or get the name for being a Banana Republic in that particular case~ If a legitimate operator is out in the Atlantic Ocean looking for oil, no one would think, Mr. Chairman, of taking away the rights such ns he has under these Orders-in-Council. I do not thin~ he has mu.ch of a right under the Order-in-Council. We do not know what exactly they give to him. They give something to him. They give to the operator an indication of good faith, good will or something on the part of the Provincial 1370

June 1, 1972 Tape 454 'lB - 2 Government and the title which the Provincial Government IT!ay in fact have may go to the operator or not. I do not know. T <lo not think anybody even the lawyers in the House or the lawyers down town can p:ive a clear opinion as to exactly what an operator who gets one of the 1nter1m permits has legally- what kind of a title he has.

But he legltimate operator obviously has nothing to fear from any government in this 11 rovince or the Government of Canada for that matter if he is actively looking for nil or natural gas or any other minerals. any other resources on the Cont1nental Shelf.

The operator who :I.snot legitimate and by that I do not mean that because a man :i.s a small operator he is not legitimate. or if a man is a speculator he is not legitimate, what T mean is that if a man or operator is not legitimate in that he is not pursuing actively his prir:iary role of searching for mineralization or searchinr- for oil or natural r,as. then he is not a legitimate operator. Nobody in the business world, nobody in the financial world would have one word to say about an interim permit being cancelled if reasonable notice is given in that particular case.

Also I am sure that the minister has come across the problem of giving something more than one of these interim permits .Because if :;ou give more than that,you are jnvolved .in regulations and the promulµation of regulations, when we in this Province,as the hon. the Premier has already said,do not have the forces, do not have the power to properly administer what :i.s fiftv-Pight per cent of all the offshore resources that this Province has. It is at least fifty-eight per cent, a tremendous area. Mr. Chairman, we do not have the resources to properly police it nor to properly administer it.

But I do not think there will be any problem at alltif an operator is not a legitimate operator. if his rir,hts, such as they are, were taken from him. I would make this suggestion as well: While we are awaiting the time when we get the administration straightened out and when regulations can be promulgated and a man knows more or less vhat rights he does have, what kind of a title he does have, ! do not think there would be anything 1371

June l, 1972 Tape 454 NB - 3 wrong with putting in the order-in-council which gives the interim permit something to the effect that the holder of the permit is not permttted to alienate to third persons such title as he has in the offshore limits. I think this would go a long way. even for present holders of these permits, p;o along ·vay in stopping speculation.

If some of this stuff is taken back from some of the present holders of these permits and the present government gives other permits to other people thJs type of n term included in the order-in-council will stop your~fly-by ni.ght operator from co:nin,: in here. trying to get hold of vast resources, or at least the potentiality of vast resources, and flogging it to some other legitimate operator and makinr, a fast capital gain when he has made no investiment in the Province. So I do not think the hon. minister or the present Government will have any problem with the matters which I have just mentioned.

I have already complimented the minister on his exposition. I must say though in all frankness I was a little disappointed in what he had to say on the important question of the forestry tenure in the Prcvince. Tam not disappointed in that.I do not think he is working actively at it, but disappointed in that he did not have a little more to say on it, perhaps because he does not have at this point,and t understand that as well, anything else to say on the forestry tenure system that we do have.

One of the first speeches I made' i.n this Rouse I think it was my maiden speech in this House, some six years ago, was one. in which I decried in an outraged fashion the dog-in-the-manger attitude which Bowaters had, in this particular case, in respect of the forestry limits on the Baie Verte Peninsula~ some very good limits indeed for we have a number of active operators like Gid Sacrey. for example, a name everybody has heard, A.T. White, other people Hr. Robinson down in Seal Cove.

People who want to get into the forestry industry and not set up small operations as we have talked about - ten or twelve men working in the mill in the forest 1 but fairly large operations 150 men,. 300, 400 and 5!10 men working in the woods and in the saw-mill on the Baie Verte Peninsula. And the dog-in-the-manger attitude which Bowaters 1372

June l, 1972 Tape 454 NB - I; has consistentaly applied to their holdings in that are::1. Because of thnt I took il personal intcrent in tryjng to remedy, trying to rectify the tenurf' system in the Province, During the lnst couple of yenrn Hr. Callahan, who l believe is in the p.a.llary here today, and I undertook to negotiate with the Government of Canada, the Department DREE and the Department of Forestry to try to come up with this forestry corporation,Commercial Forestrv Cornoration, the name is unimportant, but a corporation.

The concept behind which was that a corporation he set up on which sat the representnt:ives of the Government of Nevfoundland, representntives of the paper companies in the Province and probably some other interested parties, 1,ahour, for example. and they would have complete control over the limlts of forests in this Province so that the paper companies which are now 'in existence and paper companies which may be in existence could he assured of a goo<l reasonahle supply of wood for their mills in the future, so that proper comiervation methods could be carried out. to make sure that there was no surplus of \mod just lying around the Province concerninr, which the companies would be tempted to have this dog-in-the-manger attitude.

They would have enough wood.an adequate supply of wood, hut that the surplus could he put to other uses and things like the ~!.ooney Block or areas like the Bate Vcrtc Peninsula would no longer be just rotting away there nnd wind shook and what not as a result of non-utilization. That whatever use could he made of it. small, larrc or medium stze operators could get in there and operate sawmills or set up factories or do whatever could be done in the field.

Now we had proceeded I think to the point where Ottawa under DRF:E and Forestry were coming around to the point where they were ~oing for this corporation idea. Although Hr. Callahan had some problems with the Department of Forestry DRFF had agreed to it , and as a token of their good faith in the matter DREE had given I think $1,000,000 - I am not sure of the money. but a large amount of money for forestry access roads to go into Crown Land on the Province of Newfoundland, the Island of newfoundland and Labrador. The drawback, of course, was that neithiu· fT'EE nor any 1373

June 1, 1972 Tape 454 NB - 5 other departments in the Government of Canada would lash out public money to build access roads on privately held linits because this would he a benefit to private owners of the land and we were hoping to get around this problem by setting: up this commercial forestry corporation, Then, because the control would be in a public body. 1374

June 1, 1972 Tape }.Jo. 455 NC - 1 al.though the title could re.side with or vest in the private owners. the c.ontro1 of the forests which will be nlmost ownershlp for all pr,1ti.cal purposet;, thu control n( the forests would be in lbis n1h1 le bndv and the.n DRI\L and the Federn.i. Government t-:ould have no nhjection Hirntc,nc1-s:r tolashing in monev tn build access roads which would make GOtnc ,,f the presently non-feasible stands of wood hec:ome feasible. from the point of viet-J pf the paper induo,try. >Iow th<.1t is the point where we ha<l reached, Nothing had hee.n finalized.

I know .:it uas n hcart-hrea.king disappointrrent to my former c.ollenr,ue, ~1r. Callahan. tie hnd lots of argun:ents and Jots of prohlems with, ;md mostly l think some of the officials in Ottaw;:1,_ Thnt was the point when~ t-;e left it. Tt w;;,n a disnprw:l.ntment to the previous administra.tlon. Perhaps the hon. ninister could elnbornte .a little more fully, :.)though brtefly, on what the present status is, He said that a cn:-:1mittee nf officials hnvc been set up to lod: at the situntion. Well we h;wc had comrnittes of ofrici:1ls 1ook into the situation before.

T havt'. every n:~SfH:ct in the ,,;arld for offi.rials but 1 think th,1t very little is ruing to be addcvcd in this field of general government policy un!c:  s the t-11.nister of rorestry Resources here and the Minister of Fon::f>try ::In C,,nada, finally get together ;md make the policy decision and say to their officials. :,'.fow you go and do this.'' Perhaps we could have a sort of status report on the. point.r: you have reached in ynur neeot:i.ations with Ottawa. ~R_." ?:Y\J.ZSllALL_: Mr.

Speaker, before the hon. minister gets to his foPt, there are one or two points the hon. member for WhJt0 Bay South :mentioneJ and I cannot. .1et go myself witlu 1 ut making some comments on. This is with respect to the oi1 permits off the coast of this province. The statement thn.t Js mnde to the effect that pcrbnps we should nmr lool: nt the oil pernits nnd perhaps we should take then back, etc,, rmd renrrnnge them. ~lnw nnc of the. great tragedies of the previous 1375

June 1, 1972 Tnpc No. 455 NC - 2 administration, for which Neufoundland could well suffer for many years to come, has been the policy with respect tc the granting of oil leases and oil permits, !t is an absolute and compli2te disgrace. Tn the area around Newfoundland. we have vast, huge areus given out, as I 2m sure the Minister of Hines, Agricultt:re i1nd Resources can verify, in oil permits. I:upe areas, areas that nre unable to he exploited with any kind of efficiency over n reasonable period of time.

There are 011 permits that have been given out hy ()rder-in-Council without even the bare basic conditions as to an adequate amount of expenditure that should be made by people exploiting our natural resources. We have to look to the fact that they are our nntural resources because that is the position which we take and one thnt we will maintain. But in any event. there were no adequate conditinns put on these permits. The areas were too large.

It is aver; surprising result when nne considers at the sane time we h:.12 alrendy had the repC'rt on economic prospects, long gatherinr, dust, in the offices of the government which talked nbout the busi.ness of giving too many concess.ions to too few people over a larr;e. area. We. r,et this exhibition of fhe granting of permits to individuals and to companies. to corporate entities 7 over roo large and too huge areas. Some of these companies have heen prospecting in the area, prospecting is the word with respect to drilling. Others-of them have not been.

But the area. we had is not as if they did not have,not only with the economic commission report~ is not as if they did not have previous examples. We are informed this type of undertaking took place in the North Sea as,well and the areas involved there were very,very much smaller in dimension than the areas given away here,wholesale. I should like to hear the gentlemen on the other side as to whether this experience was looked into. As to why appropriate steps were not taken to protect the people of Newfoundland 1 as to why permits were given to concerns that 1376

June 1, 1972 Tape No. 455 NC - 3 Here not even required to ex:plore,in the permits themselves in the Orders-in-Couneil,nnd why in addition to firms such as A'!..1lCO and other firms who are conducting exploration out in l.ittle pncket.s nnd little cushions on the end of t!h~ir concession and you can see it ~n any map, our little concessions given tn the Jubilee interest:> and the Shaheen interests. Now this is a point which T do not feel can be let go.

It is a point which this governnent ts certainly wrestling with and ,"111 brinr, about an orderly system with respect to this as ,dt1 respect to the other areas of activity. But it ls certainly a posltion that the people of '.fowfoundland ought to know and it is certainly one for which the persons now on the other side of the House.who formed the previous administration, ought to ,1nswf.'.r and ought to ,mswcr in expl lei t term,;. '.·ffi. l-JOODWARD: 'f