1:: VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TR..l\.NSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. -6:00p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE 2, 1981 NO. 51

June 2,1981 Tape No.2041 AH-1 The House met at 3:00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the President of the Council in the absence of the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and the Premier. ··ould the hon. gentleman tell the House about the discussions that were opened up today with the Premier of Alberta in connection with bo~~s on the part of this Province? Could the hon. gentleman give us a few details? r1R. SPEAKER: The hon. President cf the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker,I was not privy to the discussions but there were discussions between the Premier of this Province and the Premier of Alberta touching upon many subjects. I am not in a position to give the hon.member at this present time any report of that conversation having said,as I say,not being privy to the conversation. And in any event, Mr. Speaker, even when the Premier returns I do not know necessarily whether the conversations that took place between he and Premier Lougheed would be a matter that he would necessarily wish to reveal. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, there are so many urgent and pressing matters to be questioned in this House you would think that the hon. the Premier would be in his seat today. But could the hon. gentleman tell us whether the Premier of Alberta (Mr. Lougheed) agreed to give 5566

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2041 AH-2 MR. NEARY: Newfoundland a preferential interest rate, or if we borrow from the He~itage Fund, which is substantial now in Alberta,will we be paying the same rate of interest that we pay the chartered banks or any of the bonding houses? Will the interest rate be lower? Will it be better? Is there any enticement, any encouragement to borrow from the Heritage Fundor will we be paying whatever the going interest rate is? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): of the Council . MR. MARSHALL: The hon. the President Mr.

Speaker , as the han. member knows, the last borrowings that were entered into, borrowing arrangements between both provinces,resulted in Alberta giving a favoured rate to this Province, favoured in the sense that we were treated as a province with the highest debt rating. In other words,the province of Alberta ,Mr. Speaker, was prepared to treat us as equal to all Canadians. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.

MARSHALL: Would that the federal government in Ottawa, the friends of the han. gentlemen there opposite who they love and emulate from time to time 1would treat us equal to all Canadians in other respects as well. MR.HANCOCK: They give you too much now and you do not show anyappreciation. MR.NEARY: A supplementary Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. The hon. I did not hear Your Honour call 'admit strangers' but the han. the Pra~ier did walk in. And perhaps the hon. gentleman could bring us up to date now on negotiations with Mr.

Lougheed in connection with borrowing for this Province? What kind of an interest 5589

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2041 AH-3 MR. NEARY: rate are we talking about and how much money are we talking about borrowing from the Heritage Fund in Alberta in this fiscal year? 5590

June 2, 1981 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: Tape 2042 EC - 1 The hon. the Premier. Well, r-<..r. Speaker, '!J<Te have been borrowing from the Heritage Fund in Alberta for quite a number of years now and I think it is clear to all the members of this House and, I think, to the majority of Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, that if we can get a cheaper rate from the Province of Alberta than we can in the markets of the world, then the taxpayers in Newfoundland are better off, the Province is better off, the country is better off. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: So we are very proud of the relationship we have developed with Alberta as it relates to borrowing and we will continue to borrow where we can save the people of this Province the most money. SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: we will borrow. SOME HON. MEMBERS : PREMIER PECKFORD: Hear, hear! That is Alberta. That is where Hear, hear! So that is where it is. How much we will borrow this year from the Heritage Fund, how much we will borrow in New York, how much we will borrow in Toronto, how much we will borrow in Europe is a matter that we will decide - the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and the government will decide from time to time as we look forward to what the windows are in the various marketplaces of the world to borrow money. It is known, I guess, Mr. Speaker, to the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) as it is to most members opposite,that the amount of money we intend to borrow this year is a matter of record from the budget and where we borrow, when we borrow will be determined by the market forces in the various negotiations that we have 5591

June 2, 1981 Tape 2042 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: with our fiscal agents from the various markets in the world, one of which happens to be the Heritage Fund in Alberta. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms ): A final supplementary, the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, surely, if the Premier held preliminary discussions with the oil sheik from Western Canada this morning in connection with borrowing, surely they must have talked about an interest rate, they must have talked about the amount of money that we are going to borrow in this Province from the Heritage Fund in Alberta this year. Surely, the Premier is not trying to tell this House that they did not discuss the interest rate. And what I am asking the hon. gentleman, a specific question, can he tell us now what interest rate we are talking about when we are borrowing from Alberta this year?

And how much did the Premier indicate to the Premier of Alberta this morning that we may nee~ to borrow this year from the Heritage Fund? And did Mr. Lougheed agree to this preferential interest rate or did he agree to the amount that we need to borrow from Alberta this year? Surely, there must have been some agreement. Give us a few of the details. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PR&~IER PECKFORD: In due course, Mr. Speaker, the details will become known to the hon. the member for LaPoile. He has no worry about that.

When the government intends to borrow, how much it intends to borrow from the Heritage Fund or wheresoever, we will inform the hon. the member for LaPoile. As the great financial adviser to the Leader of the Opposition, the member for LaPoile will be the first to know when we are going to borrow in the financial 5592

June 2, 19.81 Tape 20-42 EC - 3 Pr..&'UER PECKFORD: markets of the world. Let it be recorded, Mr. Speaker, that it was because of Newfoundla.rtd' s initiatives last yea::: that the Alberta Gov er~Jnent chan ged its procedure in loaning money to provinces so that all provinces, regardless of what the rate was in New York or in Paris , would get Aaa rates . And that continues to this day, and it •Has this Province that initiated that great Canadian concept so that now we can get Aaa rates 5593

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2043 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: in Alberta when we can only get Baal rates in London or in New York and that will save us millions of dollars over the next few years. When we are ready to borrow, how much we are going to borrow, the interest rates that are going to be charged will all become known to the hon. member for La~oile (Mr. Neary), that great financial advisor, that great whiz. We will let him know in due course, Mr. Speaker. SO£•iE HON. ~MBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. STIRLING: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, let me welcome the Premier back and let me ask him a question which is of great importance to the employers and the employees in this Province and that is, has the Premier. at this stage, asked for the resignation of the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn)? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as in the case of borrowing money. when the government borrows money, we will inform the Opposition at that time how much we are going to borrow, where we are going to borrow. If I have certain remarks that I want to make in this hon.

House about individual ministries or individuals who ~ now hold portfolios, I will make them in due course, Mr. Speaker. And I will inform the hon. member whenever that becomes operative - SOME HON. MEMBERS: PREMIER PECKFORD: operative. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: the Opposition. SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh. - if in fact it does become Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. Leader of Oh, oh. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I can un~erstand,and maybe the Premier from Alberta is watching in the wings and 5584

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2043 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: our local addition has to show that he is a great and fearless man who answers to no one. I wonder could he no1;- tell us whether or not it is government policy that ~led the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) to say to the Labour Relations Boa:r;d 'It seems to rre to be tantamount to a denial of natural justice to deny a hearing in such a case?' Was the minister then speaking on behalf of the government? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, let me first clarify some of the

preamble that the Leader of the Opposition mentioned. He indicated that the Premier of this Province answers to no one. Well,I will have the hon. Leader of the Opposition know I do not answer to him. I answer to this House and to the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PR&~IER PECKFORD: I do not answer to the Leader of the Opposition, I do not answer to the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), I answer to this institution, to this House and to the people of Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is who I answer to. Order, please! Oh, oh.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Secondly, Mr. Speaker, government policy on labour relations is quite well known. We have one of the best records in Canada and I am proud that the minister who now holds that portfolio has been pursuing that with a great deal of diligence over the last number of weeks and months.

We will continue to be fair to employers and to employees, we will continue to do the jobs we were elected to do and I ask the Leader of the Opposition to join us in being part of the greatprogressive and reform-minded legislation that we put forward over the last couple of years, that we will continue to put forward. 55~5 And, Mr. Speaker,

June 2, 1981 Tape 2044 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: we do not have to take a back seat on labour relations in this Province to any former administration or to any existing political party who has advocated certain things in the realm of labour relations. We can stand on our record on that one. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the han. Leader of Mr.

Speaker, I realize the Premier may not have seen the letter of May 19, maybe when he gets up he can tell me whether or not he has seen the letter of May 19 or a copy of the letter of May 19, signed by Mr. G. C. Easton, Mr. C. W. White, Mr. F. W. Russell, Mr. G. Gillingham, Mr. W .. Alcock, Mr. J. Walsh, Mr .. R. Gcsse, Mr. F.

Bowdring who are all of the members of the Labour Relations Board appointed by this administration who said, "All members of the Board are unanimous in their alarm and concern,that you would deem it proper to suggest to the Board the manner in which it might deal with a matter properly·before the Board and within its jurisdiction." I ask the Premier if, in view of the great speech he just made a minute or so ago supporting the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn), his colleague, now that he has heard of these people who unanimously expressed that opinion, has he seen the May 19 letter and has he changed his opinion as a result of that expression by the Labour Relations Board? MR. WARREN: No, he is too arrogant. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. 5586

June 2, 1981 Tape 2044 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I reiterate as I said a few minutes ago,that this government is proud of its record in labour relations, that we will continue to be fair as it relates to all elements of the labour community of the employer/employee community and that we are proud of our record and there many new reforms and progressive steps we have to take, which we will take with pride. And we will continue to do what we have done as elected officials in this House to make sure that is done. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, regardless - The hon.

Leader of the Opposition. - regardless of the fact that the ' minister did something which unanimously was rejected by the members of the Labour Relations Board, and regardless of the complete irresponsible attitude now being taken by the Premier who refuses to deal with the specifics - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - apart altogether from that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ MR. STIRLING: - and in view of the fact that the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) has as his main responsibility to be deserving of and having the confidence of both management and labour, and in view of the fact that the Electrical Union, the Fishermen's Union, CUPE, the Newfoundland Construction, Trades and Labour Council, all of these people representing labour have individually, separately said that they have no confidence in the Minister of Labour and Manpower, would the Premier, forgetting the letter, and forgetting that they insulted the Labour Relations Board, but that now there is indication that labour has no confidence in the Minister of Labour and Manpower, does the Premier now 5587

June 2, 1981 Tape 2044 PK - 3 MR. STIRLING : intend to ask for the resignation of ~~e ~nister of Labour and Manpower (~1r. Dinn ) and replace him with a man or w-oman who is more acceptable to labour or do you now decide that this whole government is taking an approach which is anti- labourin this Province? SOME HON • :-l.E!1BE'RS : Hear, hea r! ~!R. NARREN : A good question. A good question. ~!R . SPEAKER (S imms ): The hon. the Premier. 5580

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2045 DW - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that was a pretty long question there,contained. It might take a long answer. ~x. Speaker, if the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) is trying to imply that this side of the House,for some strange reason only known to the Leader of the Opposition that this government here,is anti­ labour. I mean,just let him look at our record over the last couple of years. We have been fair and reasonable with all the labour unions in this Province. We have tried to treat everybody fair and square. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: And 1.re will continue to do that. We operate an open government. Y.Te operate a qovernment that wants to hear from all sectors of the economy. We want to hear from the labour unions. We want to hear from the Employer Association. We have been fair and reasonable and we will continue to do that. And the Leaoer 0f the Opposi­ tion can trv as hard as he likes to trv to ~aint this government with some anti-labour bias. He will not succeed. He has not succeeded in the past, he will not succeed in the present and he will be a dismal failure in the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: 111R. L. STIRLING: MR.

SPEAKER: .of the Opposition. MR. L. STIRLING: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. Leader ~r. Speaker, as you know,the rules of this House do not force the Premier or a minister to have to answer a question. I am so pleased that he is so concerned about my welfare. However, the fact of the matter is that the labour movement have ~xoressed to the Premier, specifically to the Premier that in this case they have no confidence. T~ey have sent a teleqram to him. 5589

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2045 DW - 2 M...'R.. L. STIRLING : I would ask the Premier if he has received these telegrams, these responses, these con­ cerns from the labour organizations and •-vhat answer has he given them? If he is too arrogant to say to the House of Assembly or admit that there is a problem in this House of Assembly - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. L. STIRLING: Order, please! Would he tell this House of Assembly what answer he has given to the members of the labour organizations who have asked for a very reason­ ·able reply? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, obviously if a number of groups in the Province have sent me representa­ tions I have received them unless the mail system or the telex system or whatever else has suddenly broken down. Obviously I have received them and will be responding to those organizations in due course as is normal with all representations that come to my office or come to me personally. Sure I will, yes! Absolutely I have received representatibns and I will be responding to them which is quite normal. As a matter of fact,respondins fairly quickly too, Mr. Speaker. We resoond quickly to re9resentations that come to us.

And we will out our position forward as to what I believe and answer the questions that the various groups have. That is normal and that will be done, Mr. Speaker. l>\Te receive ~eDresentations every day on various issues and '''<:! will respond to them. Then after they are responded to.out of courtesy to the organization that has responded - they have to get the response first and then if the hon. Leader of the Opposition O~r. Stirling) wants me to table it in the House t.hen well, then we will table it in the House. But out of courtesy to those organizations they must receive the response first before 5600

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2045 DW - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: I tell the Leader of the Opposi- tion (Mr. Stirling) what the response is. I would be very discourteous to those organizations if suddenly I gave to the Leader of the Opposition,or members 56 J 'I

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2046 NM - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: of the Opposition all of the responses before these unions and these organizations got the response. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! Order, please! But we respond all the time, Mr. Speaker, and will continue to do so. I thank the han. Leader of the Opposition for urging me to ensure that I respond. But I can assure him I will respond in due course_ SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! Order, please!

Order, please! - and present my views to those organizations who have made representation to me as we have done in the past and I thank the hon. Leader of the Opposition for urging me to make that kind of response. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. HANCOCK: time you open your mouth. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Making a fool of yourself every Mr. Speaker, as the hon. Premier knows, interferring with the judicial system is probably one of the most serious - MR. HANCOCK: (• It is a real serious matter. MR.

NEARY: - most serious things that a minister can do and in this case the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) interfered with a decision of the Labour Re lations Board, or attempted to interfere. Now is the hon. Premier saying that that now is government policy? Is the Premier defendinq that kind of policy, interference with quasi judicial and judicial processes in this Province? Is that what the han. gentleman is saying, he is going to dig in and he does not ssu2

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2046 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: care about the feelings of the unions in connect~on with this matter, that he is going to defend the Minister of Labour and Manpower no matter what price we have to pay for it? Is that what the han. gentleman is saying? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, you know, hon. members opposite are free to interpret what I say how they like. I will say what I am going to say. The press will interpret it, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) will interpret it, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Nearv) will in­ terpret it.

And various members around here think a bit differently, or put a certain nuance, or a certain tone on what somebody says, and I am sorry that the member for LaPoile is having such great difficultly understanding what I have said but I think I have made it as clear as I can. I do not know what else I have to say to the hon. member for LaPoile but I have responded to the questions that the hon. members have asked and if he is having some difficu+ty under­ standing it well then that is his problem, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. MR.

NEARY: Well perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I will try to put it in baby talk to see if the hon. gentleman will understand the question. MR. HANCOCK : note. MR. !'lEARY: Write him a note. Write him a The question that I am putting to the hon. gentleman, does his administration condone and defend interference with quasi judicial or the judicial process in this Province? Does the hon. gentleman defend that kind of action on 5Gu3

June 2, 1981 .:1R. ~ARY: MR. !V.NCOCX : MR. SPEAKER (S .imms} : ?RE11IER PEC!G'ORD: Tape No . 2046 the part of his minister? Yes or no . Order, plea se! The hon . the Premier . Mr . Spe~~er, as I said a NM - 3 few cirnes al:-eady t.'1is afternoon, our policy is clear on how we deal in labour relations matters in t~is Province over tne last couple of years . It is quite clear to 5GQ4

June 2, 1981 Tape 2047 EC 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: the members of the Opposition, it is quite clear to the general public. We will continue to be reasonable and responsible in our dealings with all parts of the economy including the labour unions, including t~e Employer Association. That is the way we operate. We operate an open government, we want to hear all side·s, we want to bring in reasonable and sensible legislation and laws governing that kind of activity (inaudible) • MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, all I am asking the hon. gentleman for is a simple yes or no answer and forget the rhetoric, because we all know how the trade union movement at this particular moment feels about the administration's philosophy and their policy. What I am asking the hon. gentleman is this- forget the past- I am asking the hon.· gentleman to state whether or not he, himself, or his administration condones in any way, shape or form, interference in the judicial process in this Provice by ministers? Yes or no. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I will have to rule the question out of order.

Beauchesne, paragraph 357 quite clearly says, a question "must not repeat in substance a question already answered, or to which an answer has been refused." It is the same question. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is also to the Premier. The Premier knows again better than anybody 5605

June 2, l!iBl Tape 2047 EC - 2 MR. FLIGHT: else the importance of having a Minister of Labour that has got the confidence of the labour movement. They have to respect his impartiality and his non-partisanship. Now, representatives of the major labour movements in this Province have indicated they have lost their confidence in the minister, they have indicated that they are not prepared to accept the minister any longer in that portfolio. What does the Premier say to them? Is he prepared to.foist on them a minister who has lost their confidence and with whom, Mr. Speaker, they are not prepared to deal?

We have passed through some very sensitive times this past few months in labour relations and we are going into more sensitive. What is the Premier's position? Does he intend to continue to foist on the labour movement a minister who has lost their confidence when they have come out publicly and said so? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier. Mr. Speaker, I have answered the question a hundred different ways in the last five or ten minutes.

I can say to the hon. member, I can say to all members of this House that this government is responsible, responsive to what happens in the economy, that includes the labour union movement , that includes the Employer Association. We want to be fair and reasonable in all our dealings. We think we have been in all the things we have done and we will continue to do that, to act that way. And, you know, that is the story on it. We are a responsible, responsive administration to various lobby groups in the community who have legitimate concerns concerning basic substantive policy issues which deal with this Province.

We will continue to be responsive as we go along down the road. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. 55u6

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2048 AH-1 MR. FLIGHT: The Premier has acknowledged that he has received representation from the labour movement and quite possibly from the management movement but certainly from the labour movement itself and the Premier has indicated that he will deal with it in time. Would the Premier indicate when he intends to give his answer to the labour movement bearing in mind that every da" that goes by, the Premier and the administration lose credibility in the eyes of the labour movement in this Province?

Can the Premier tell us when labour can expect an answer as to how he intends to deal with this? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, as representations come to me from time to time,obviously I respond as quickly as I can and I will do that in this case. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: I think this is a very good display. I can understand why there is no television allowed in the House or any radio in the House.

It is a good display today to indicate how a question is avoided by this government and causes us to wonder what the real relationship is between Alberta - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Leader of the Opposition is entering more into debate no"r than the purpose of the Question Period. MR . HAJ.\TCOCK : Oh,~e is defender today is he? MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, I am just making a comment on the fact that the Speaker will realize that the Premier has not answered t~e r.uestion and this kind of glossing over is probably indicative of the kind of information that has been r: i' . ·, 7 JOLJ/

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2048 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: given to the House before . on a lot of other issues. So I would ask the Premier whether or not itwas government policy when the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) accused the IBEW of,in effect 1 holding the innocent third party , the people of the Province up to ransom, dpes this reflect his government 1 s attitude about unions? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: The hon. the Premier.

Government's attitude towards the union movement, towards the employer associations, towards these things in general over the last two or three years have made abundantly clear legislation , abundantly clear Ministerial Statements, abundantly clear in the way we have approached the union movement, the federation of labour and all the rest of them in representations that they have made.

As a matter of fact on many, many occasions representations that have been made by the labour movement have been taken and incorporated into legislation and in other areas have been taken and incorporated into other public policy so you know we have been reasonable and fair as it relates to that whole question, Mr. Speaker.

As I say,we stand proud in the way we have tried to deal and to walk dowrr the middle of the road as it relates to labour on one side and management on the other and we will continue to be responsible as we continue to look at new legislation and to deal with various labour groups and to deal with the Federation of Labour, deal with management groups in the next few months or the next few years. Our record is clean, our record is clear, our record is responsible and we will continue to act in the way that we have acted in the past, Mr.

Speaker, of being responsible and being responsive to all groups in society who have a legitim ate concern arrl want is expressed to government. 5608

June 2, 1981 MR. SPEA-~ER (Simms): MR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER : supplementary. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 2049 SD - 1 The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. I wish to yield, ~1r. Speaker. You wish to yield? The hon. member for LaPoile on a Would the hon. the Premier agree that the Labour Relations Board is in the category of a judicial or quasi judicial body? Would the hon. gentleman agree that the Labour Relations Board is as sensitive as the Public Utilities Board?

And the hon. gentleman in this House has so often said that it would be improper and wrong for the government or any minister to interfere with the Public Utilities Board. Would the hon. gentleman say whether or not in his opinion the Labour Relations Board is in that category? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, you know, I do not want to get into a great dis~tion upon the role of a quasi judicial body, of a judicial body. I find it passing strange that the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) would soon start asking for my opinion.

Most times in this House when he gets up and rants ahd raves, Mr. Speaker, he is condemning the opinion that I give him, he is condemning the opinion that this administration is giving him, he has condemned the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) or the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Newhook) on what we have said. So I cannot see what value my opinion is to the member for LaPoile. The evidence is overwhelming against my opinion being accepted. ~- SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: you get. MR. STIRLING: How childish and arrogant can :1r.

Speaker, we now have a very serious situation in this Province in which you had a minister interfere with a board. That board decided unanimously-in their opinion it was interference-and the Premier has now decided today to defend that minister in his action. Would the 56u9

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2049 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: Premier please advise this House of Assembly whether or not he is saying to this Labour Relations Board that if you are not prepared to accept the interference from the minister then you will have no other choice but to resign? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, they continue to ask for my opinion on a whole range of issues. I would love to know, talking about the dismal preformance of the administration or myself,personally,on responding to matters of concern, one would think that the Leader of the Opposition - SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh. PREMIER PECKFORD: (inaudible) - I think I <vc." quiet while member for St. Mary's -The Capes (Mr. Hancock) on that matter. AN HON. MEMBER: Time is up, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, just let it be recorded that we stand on our record as it relates to quasi judicial and judicial bodies in this Province· we have heard from the Opposition on this issue, we would love to hear from them on offshore oil and gas, we would love to hear from them on the fishery, we would love to hear from them on the creation of jobs, Mr.

Speaker - SOME HON; MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - we would love to hear from them on those things which are important to the average, ordinary Newfoundlander. Where is the Opposition when it comes to the ordinary Newfoundlander? I would like to hear them on some of the issues which are important to the ordinary Newfoundlander. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 5610

June 2, 1981 MR . SPE~XER (Simms) : :-ffi . S':'IRLING : SOME EON . ~·1EMBERS : ~ . S PE.~R: :1R . NEARY : !1R • S PEA.i<ER : M.R . STIRLI~G: Tape No . 2049 so - 3 The hon . Leader of the Opposition . Mr. Speaker, I p r e s ~~e - Oh , oh . Order. "">l~a::;e ! ~ to go back to otta!v"a again . Order , ple ase ! - that from the Premier 's answer he does not consider having a fair and equit able treatment for 5 61 1

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2050 DW - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: unions and employees and he does not expect that having a Labour Relations Board that is beyond political interference,he does not consider this important to the average Newfoundlander? Now do I under­ stand the Premier correctly when he says that,in his opin­ ion,having interference by the Minister of Labour and Man­ power (Mr. Dinn) , is acceptable to his administration? ~R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PRErUER PECKFORD: i'<lr. Speaker, I think there is a lot of things that are important to the ordinary Newfound­ lander.

I think roads are very important to the average Newfoundlander. I think water and sewer is very important to the average Newfoundlander. AN HON . MEMBER: The fishery. .PREMIER PECKFORD: I think the fishery is very important to the average, ordinary Newfoundlander. I am sure there are people in the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Stirling) district - in Badger's Quay, in Valleyfield and in Pound Cove and in Hare Bay and in Gambo.

I think there are a lot of people in the Leader of the Opposition's district - ordinary Newfoundlanders in Bonavista North who are very concerned about a whole range of issues which they have to deal with every day. SOME HON. ~EMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PRF.MIER PECKFORD: And we are going to respond to that ordinary Newfoundlander, Mr. Speaker. We will res'?ond to them. SOME HON. MEM~ERS: MR. SPEAKER: has expired. Hear, hear! Order, please! The time for Oral Questions 5612

June 2, 1981 '!'ape No. 2050 DW - 2 NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The hon. Minister of Justice . MR. G. OTTENHEI~£R: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Landlord And Tenants Act, 1973". MR. SPEAKER~ lmy further Notices of i·~otion? ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR l~ICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MP.. SPEAKER : Recreation and Youth . MR. H . ANDREWS : The hon. Minister of Culture .Mr. Speaker, I now table the answer to a question asked by the han. member for St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) some while back. MR.

SPEAKER: Any further Answers to Questions? MR. S . NEA..'R.Y : MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile . MR. S. NEARY: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I have approxi- mately seventy-five questions on the Order Paper now and I have received about eight answers. I believe, Mr. Speaker, it is incumbent upon ministers to answer questions, written cruestions that go on the Order Paper. Could Your Honour give us a ruling on it? PREMIER PECKFORD: respond to that. MR. SPEAKER: the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to To the point of order, the hon.

We are diligent ly trying,and have been over the last couple of weeks.to respond to every single question on the Order Paper and in due course the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) and all the members of the Opposi- 5 61 3

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2050 DW - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: tion will have all the answers they need on all those questions. We are really proud and we are really working hard to really respond to the new Leader of the Opposition, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). SOME HON .· MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! Order, please! 5 b '1 Lf

June 2, 1981 Tape No . 2051 ~ffi. SPEAKER (Simms) : The~e ~s obviously no poi~t of orde r. no point of order. I ~~i~~ I have ruled many times many precedents for that one. PRESENTING PETITIONS: NM - 1 MR . SPEAKER (SLmms) : The hon. ma~er for St. Mary's- The Capes . SOME RON . ~!EMBERS : Hear, hear! HR . NEARY: Heave it out of you, boy. MR. H.!\NCOCK : Yes, ~lr. Speaker, I rise to presen~ a petition on behalf of some 620 residents, ordinary people of the district of St. Mary's-The Capes . SOME RON . MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: M..~ . HAi'KOC~< : ~.N HON . ~'EMBER: MR. NEARY: next time. MR.

SPEA1<ER : MR. ~EARY: the next time . MR. HANCOCK : were - SOME !iON . ~1E1-1BERS : :-t&. SPEAKER: MR. HANCOCK : Order, please ~ Order , please! If this keeps up I will have to asi< co - (I naudible ) Walcer Career . ival ter is running for us the Order, please! Walter is running !or t~e Liberals The Premier just said that roads Oh, oh! Order, please! I will wait until some other day, Mr . Speaker, because I only have fiv e minutes to presen~ the petition. :1R. SP~R: That is correct, and about thi~ty secon ds have been used.

The hon . member Eor St. ~lary's­ The Capes should have the right to be heard in silence. 5615

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2051 MR. HANCOCK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the Premier admitted that some of the ordinary people of this Province are concerned about road conditions, but you would never say it by the roads programme that was tabled in this House yesterday, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: The prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! This is presentation of petitions now, the han. member for St. Mary's-The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: The prayer of the petition reads as follows, Mr. Speaker.

"We the undersigned, from Admiral's Beach through to North Harbour, petition the government, and the Minister of Highways, that their highest consideration be given towards the upgrading and paving of roads in the Haunt Carmel through to Colinet and North Harbour area this corning year of 1981, and that a start be made in the early Spring." Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the prayer of the petition. Now what are the people in this area looking for, Mr. Speaker, from this administration, this government, Mr.

Speaker, that has been running the Province for the last ten or twelve years where we have seen very little or no new construction or paving? The people in this area, Mr. Speaker, are very upset with the road conditions that they have to drive to work over, that their school children have to travel forty miles a day on to get to school, Mr. Speaker. With the attitude of this government, and the statements made earlier by the Premier, Mr. Speaker, it is no wonder that they are upset and no wonder that I defeated the Premier himself in that by-election. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 5616

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2Q51 NM - 3 MR. HANCOCK: I have no '"orries about anybody running against me in the next election. The Premier of thls Province, when he was at his peak could not defeat me, Mr. Speaker, I would like to see him send somebody out to try to defe~t me the next time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MOORES: MR. HANCOCK: Hear, hear! Well said. Mr. Speaker, the people in this area are not looking for something that is - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) MR. HANCOCK: Order, please! Oh, oh! - so arrogant. Order, please! Order, please!

Order, please! You will find out how arrogant I am the next time around, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! All hon. members are aware that the purpose for presenting a petition is to present concerns of a particular group of residents in a particular area. I suggest to the hon. member now, the comments that he is making really would give rise to debate and there should not be any debate on petitions. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Now the Chair has in the past attempted to be fairly flexible and I will continue to do so unless it begins to get out of hand. The Capes. MR.

HANCOCK: The hon. member for St. Mary's- Mr. Speaker, I tried here last year to have this road placed on a priority list so that Ot.t.~-~~ could get involved and the Minister of Transportation (Mr.Brett) at the time would not even consider, Mr. Speaker, placing those roads on a cost- 5 61 7

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2051 NM - 4 HR. RANCOC:l<: snaring programme witn Ottawa. So that goes to so now much this government is concerned, Mr. Speaker, about - they have not got the money to co it and they do not want to put this

section of road on a priority list to go to Ottawa looking for funding for it. It is ridiculous, ~1r . Speaker. The people L~ this area , ~1r . Speaker, are upset ~-rith their school children, like I said, being bused forty mile s a day back and forth to school. ~- Speaker, there is fish being ~rucked over those sections of road. Roads lead to resources. lie would have one of the largest tourist attract ion s on this Island, Mr. Speaker, if it was fully developed,in the Cape Shore l>ird sanctua=y off Cape St. Mary's,. 5618

June 2, 1981 Tape 2052 PK - l MR. HANCOCK: It coul~ be the number one tourist attraction in this Province, barring none, if we had some paved roads. What has this government done about it? They have done nothing, Mr. Speaker, in the last ten years only sit on their fat rears and try to abuse the Opposition in this House. The people out in this area, particularly in North Harbour, Harricott are not looking for something out of the ordinary, Mr. Speaker. They are just looking for road conditions that are fit to drive over that should be in place in the 1980s the same as - I can see other members from St.

John's driving over those roads every day, but they would not tolerate it, Mr. Speaker. The poeple out there have been patient, you are going to see a rebellion from that district before too long, and I will be the one who will organize it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK : And we may end up with the Premier in one of those potholes, Mr. Speaker. There are lots of them out there we can shove him in and keep him there if we want to for a while. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HANCOCK: there, Mr. Speaker, as I am - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR.

HANCOCK: But I would ask , Mr. Speaker, Oh, oh! The Premier is about as welcome out Oh, oh! Order, please! are lower than :··o·tl10les are 'Jim' . Order, please! The hon. member has one minute. Mr. Speaker, I urge the Premier to send somebody out, the Department of Highways got out of the crusher business some three years ago with the promise to the people of that area that they would be purchasing crushed stcne 5 61 9

June 2, 1981 Tape 2052 PK - 2 MR. HANCOCK: from private enterprise. We have seen no crushedstone purchased in that area,in that district, Mr. Speaker, in the last three years. And I do not know - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HANCOCK: The minister is not doing his job. I do not know if - not doing his job - what can you do in this House, Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. HANCOCK: it on Ottawa again. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. HANCOCK: MR. SPEAKER : do not - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: little more quiet. seconds remaining. The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: SOME HON.

MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: MR. HANCOCK: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order! Order! It is a wonder you do not blame Order! Order! The member is doing his job, Order, please! By leave, Mr. Speaker? Well I cannot hear anything. I By leave! By leave! Hon. members will have to be a The hon. member has about thirty The hon. member for St. Mary's- Thank you, Mr. Speaker. By leave! Start over again, by leave! I will start over again, Mr. Speaker. I hope Hansard pic~s it up. Mr. Speaker, this is going out in a householder I can assure you that. But, Mr.

Speaker, the people in that area ~ested some crushed stone and this government got out 5620

June 2, 1981 Tape 2052 PK - 3 MR. HANCOCK: of the crusher business some three and a half years ago and have purchased no crushedstone in that area, I doubt if they have purchased it any anywhere on the Island to look after the basic needs of the people. The roads there are not fit to drive over. There is a bridge on this

section of dirt road which is not fit, it was built in 1926. They could not put a new top on it this year because the bridge itself could not warrant it, they were afraid the bridge would collapse if they put a new bridge up. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh , oh! MR. HANCOCK: By leave, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): I have to advise the hon. member that his timehas expired. He has requested leave. Is there leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HANCOCK: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: By leave! By leave! I am not finished. By leave! Order, please! By leave! Order, please!

Hon. members could take their seats and I will declare first of all whether or not the request for leave is granted. SOME HON. M&~BERS: MR. SPEAKER: granted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Is there leave? No. I understand leave has not been Oh, oh! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition presented by the hon. member - 5621

June 2, 1981 Tape 2052 PK - 4 )1R. F.ANCOC:{ : Mr. Speaker, on a point of order . )ffi. SPEAKER (Simms ) : A point of orde= has been raised by the hon. member for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr . Hancock). :·IR. fiJU'IICOCK : The petition has not been laid on the table of the House yet. I wholeheartedly support the pe~ition, Mr. Speaker, - SO~ HON. ~~ERS: near, hear! ~~. HANCOC~ : - and I hope che Premier sees fit to do something about it, Mr Speaker . SOfo!E iiON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! !·1..~. SPEA.i<ER : Order, please! 5622

June 2, 1981 MR. HANCOCK: SOME HON. MEMBERS: Tape 2053 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hear, hear! EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : If I may rule on the point of order. There was no point of order. The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I assumed same, Mr. Speaker. I rise to support the petition presented by the member for St. Mary's -The Capes (Mr. Hancock). I rise to support it for a number of very important reasons. One is that I know the han. member's district very well, I know the han. member very well. As a matter of fact, he knows me very well. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, talking about his great love for me and for this administration, I think it was a number of years ago that the han. ~rs actually wished to support me during the leadership campaign, so I know that his support is very strong and I accept it again. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: I accepted his support two years ago and I accept it today. And just let me say, Mr.

Speaker, in support of this petition, that the hon. member's district is a very historic district in this Province and it has a very long history of fishing and independent people, so much so that the P.C. administration over the last seven or eight years spent $18 million in St. Mary's -The Capes - $18 million! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: Is there any other han. member, Mr. Speaker, who can stand in his place here and say that $18 million worth of provincial fundswere S?end in his or her district over the last seven or eight years? SOME HON. ME~~ERS: No. ~REMIER PECKFORD: No, he cannot, Mr.

Speaker. 5623

June 2, 1981 Tape 2053 EC - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : And as far as provincial funds, 100 per cent provincial funds - $18 million. I challenge any han. member to show me any other district in the Province which has received $18 million of provincial funds· in the last six or seven years. I would like to see the district and would like for them to detail to me the thing. On the whole question of DREE, Mr. Speaker, that is a cop out. All the roads in Newfoundland cannot be done by DREE, number one; number two, on the ones that we have submitted they have not signed; SOME RON. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! and number three, the ones that they have signed, it has been only 50 per cent. So if the hon. the member really wants to support me he should come across the Rouse. SOME RON. MEMBERS: SOME RON. MEMBERS : . MR. SPEAKER: MR ." STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: HR. STIRLING: SOME RON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: 11R. STIRLING: Hear, hear! Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Oh, oh! Order, please! I rise to support the petition and I want to congratulate my - wait now, Mr.

Premier, just stay for this. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: Order, please! What a chicken! Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate my colleague from St. Mary's - The Capes (Mr. Hancock) for 5624

June 2, 1981 Tape 2053 EC - 3 MR . 'sTIRLING: finally getting the Premier on his feet dealing with a roads programme. Now, Mr . Speaker, what may have upset the Premier very much with my colleague, the member for St. Hary ' s - The Capes (Mr . Hancock )1 is that he recognized L'l him maybe the first person of the thousands of Net.;foundlanders who supported the Prem ier, who no longer supports the Pra~i er. SOME EON. ~ffiMBERS: Hear, hear ! ~R . STIRLING : The Premier had a rude awakening last weekend with a visit from a member from a council on the West Coast, and that person said in a meeting, 5625

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2054 so - 1 HR. STIRLING: when the Premier said, 'Listen, I hear you are gone Liberal', and she said, 'Yes, I am a Director of the Humber East Liberal Association'. But he said, 'You supported me in the leadership' like he just said to my colleague' ,and she said, 'Yes, but I do not like what you are doing ,'Brian'. SOr1E HON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear. MR. STIRLING: And that represents the feelings of thousands and thousands of Newfoundlanders who had great hope for this man who was going to stand up for Newfoundland, ~r~=~-HR. SPEAKE:<. (Simms): Order, please! MR.

STIRLING: - we are dealing with roads, Mr. Speaker. SOHE HON. MEHBERS : Oh, oh . MR. SPEAKER: Actually we are dealing with a petition and somehow or other I think my greatest fears have now been realized, we are into a debate and not into discussion or comments on the petition. I would ask the hon. L~ader to try to - I was flexible for a few seconds but - HR. STIRLING: I recognize, Mr. Speaker, that you try very hard to be fair and I was responding in the kind that was set out by the temporary Premier of this Province. SOHE HON. MEHBERS : Oh, oh. HR. STIRLING: Now, Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that St.

Hary's - The Capes was represented by two PC Cabinet ministers and then under the leadership of the ?resent Premier, in a by-election they threw them out,turned around 2,000 votes and put in a fighting Newfoundlander as their representative, Mr. Speaker. SO~£ HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. HR. STIRLING: And the reason that they did it, Mr. Speaker, and it is happening all over this Province, the reason that they did it is that there are still lOS miles of 5626

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2054 SD - 2 HR. STIRLING: dirt road in St. Mary 's - The Capes, 105 miles of dirt road. And, ~x . Speaker, you c~~ kid the people in this Provin ce, you can kid the people i .n this House of Assembly-and you saw the kine of arro~ance in which they are tryin~ to bluff their \vay through with the Federation of Labour. And, Mr. Speaker, we are n01" getting the first spark from the other side that shows there is a concern - SOME RON . MEMBERS: ~Lq . SPEAKER (Simms) : ~1R . STIRLING: Oh, oh. . Order, please! - becaus .e the people on thls side are fighting for ~~eir constituents MR .

SPEAKER: MR . STIRLING : Speaker . SOME HON . MEMBERS: 1-I.R. SPEAKER: MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! - and we will get the roads, Mr . Bear , hear . Are there any further petitions? ORDERS OF THE DAY Order 3 . Concurrence motions on the report of the Social Services Committee. SOME RON . MEr-1BERS : Oh, oh. l'-1R. SPEAKER: Order, please ! The last day the debate was adjourned by the hon. Leader of the Opposition~ has one minute remaining. Artd we have approximately one hour remaining on this particular report . MR. STIRLING: The hon . Leader of the Opposition . Yes, Mr .

Speaker, in that one minute I would now invite the 1tinister of Social Services (1-tr . Hickey) to get into another area that he considers and they en the ot."!er side consider very unimportant and that is dealL~g '"i th the health of the childre.\1 . on Social Service s. lllould the :ninister nm" L~dicate, since they had a wee.~ to consult and the Premier is 5627

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2054 SD - 3 MR. STIRLING : back from his jaunt with our banker from Alberta, would the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) now indicate that he is going to do away with this policy of cosmetic treatment only and that the 5628

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2055 DW - 1 .M..."R.. L. STIRLING : children of this 0lind person who is on welfare, who went to get dental treatment for his son and was told, 'As long as it is in the front teeth,we will give the dental treat­ ment'. 1 ~7ould he now announce a change in that policy so that people can be treated with respect and dignity and if dental work is needed for the children of those on wel­ fare,it will be orovided to the full extent of the dentist's reromrendation? I will now ask the Hinister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) if he will confirm that? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon.

Minister of Social Services. HR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, it is hard to follow the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) . Yesterday evening, Mr. Speaker, we were a great bunch over here and I think he said something to the effect that I was very compassionate. MR. L. STIRLING: SO~E HON. MEMBERS: r-1R. SPEAKER: MR. T. HICK~Y: Oh, oh! Order, please! Well, have your colleagues be quiet over there and you might here it. I said, Mr. Speaker, that it is difficult to follow the hon. gentleman. Yesterday evening he indicated how compassionate I was and today he has changed his mind. In any event, Mr.

Speaker, I am not going to try to understand that change.But I will try to respond to the two issues that he raised. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, o'h! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 5629

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2055 OW - 2 MR . T. FiTCi<EY : One, with regard to the issue of the dental problem , ~~ . Speaker, that is a programme lvhich is not in my department . Ancl. the hon. gentleman yesterday evening indicated or raised a question as to whether or not we ,on this side as ministers ,cot.:lc malce decisions or whe~,er we were controlled so rigidly by the hon . the Premier 1ve were not able to make decisions . r can inform the hon . gentleman and all other ho n. member s on th.at s.:.de that •,.,e are not under any rigid control by the hon. the Premier on a day to day basis.

Ne are clearly understandable of our 90licy of the areas and programmes that lve are responsible for . And there is not the lci:l~ of interference that the hon . gentleman perceives there to be in this admi~istration. I can tell him th at I share his concern as do all of us on this kind of a programme and :ny colleague, the !1inister of Health (Mr . House). is pre ­ sently conside.dng this whole matter a.nd hopefully very shortly there will be a statement illade by him . l-1y staf= - MR. v1. O..LLAN: (Ina udible ) . MR . T.

HICKEY : If the hon . gent leman now newly elected will just be quiet then he will get his turn and t~e~ he can tell us all about this issue. 5630 'low he feels

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2056 AH-1 MR. HICKEY : Mr. Speaker,the involvement of my staff into the dental programme is only by way of. certification as to the ability or inability to. pay It starts and ends there. That is the involvement of my field staff. The programme itself is a health programme and consequently I have no authority to change or - MR. STIRLING: The decision will be made by government as to who pays for it. MR. HICKEY: That is right. My staff certifies whether the family is able to pay or not. MR. STIRLING: Is it the Department of Health's policy then that it is only front teeth? MR. HICKEY: Pardon?

MR. STIRLING: It is the Department of Health's policy that it is only front teeth is that so? MR. HICKEY: It is not the policy of my department. It is the health programme. MR. STIRLING: The Health Department. AN.HON.MEMBER: That is only cosmetic (inaudible) MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, with regard to the other issue raised by the Leader of the Opposition in connection with senior citizen's homes, I want to inform hirn,as my official informed him at that opening,that his

interpretation of what that official said was not necessarily correct. MR. STIRLING: MR. HICKEY: Not necessarily. That is right. The hon. gentleman raised the issue with the official who made the statement and the official explained what he had said and what it meant and the Leader of the Opposition is quoted as having said, "Well, I interpret that a different way," so I will clear the air for him today. The policy with regards to expansion, further expansion and the construction 5531

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2056 AH-2 M..l:l.. HICKEY: of new senior citizens' homes in the Province is geared around providing services to people to the largest extent who need bed care or some level of nursing care. That is not to say, Mr. Speaker, that ambulatory people cannot be adrnitted 1 but the emphasis is on nursing care of one , two or three categories depending on hmv ill or to what degree the nursing carei_s required and the reason for that, Mr. Speaker, are t1-.1ofold. One, the greatest need in the Province today is for people who require bed care, by far the greatest need is that.

And government has to lead the way by developing a policy which responds to that need and so we have done it. The other reason for it, Mr. Speaker, is that it is very, very costly.In some instances it is an arrount of close or approaching $2000. a month to house someone in a senior citizens home when in fact that person could be housed for far less in another type of horne such as a licensed boarding horne or as we prefer , Mr. Speaker, that person could stay in their own horne and have homemaker services 11.nd a whole range of other types of services provided.

So government' _s policy is to encourage people , senior citizens to stay in their own homes for as long as practical and possible and then when they require nursing care,by all means they should and will be able to find accarrodations in those high cost institutions. It is a very positive and a very forward policy, Mr. Speaker, which is receiving the approval not only of senior citizens but of all the population tnroughout this Province.

It is the obvious thing to do, to keep people in the environment in which they grew up and spent most of their lives as opposed tci housing them in institutions very often far removed from their loved ones and their friends and relatives. It is a policy, Mr. Speaker, that 5632

June 2,1981 Tape No . 2056 AE!-3 ~1R. HICKEY : this gover:m1ent is e.'<t=emely ?roud o= and is anxious to expand on ~~c hopefully we will be ab le to do that in the coming year . MR. SPEAKER (SL~ s ) : The hon.member for LaPoile. :'..R . ~"EAR y : Mr. Speaker, yesterday I raised the matter of the advertisme.~t that was run by the ?Ublic service, the ~ol.lr'.dland and Labrador Public Service for a family planning consultant· And 'I passed a remark here in ~~e ~ouse that the ad was cailor made to suit one individual and I promised the Hou se that I would bring the ad today to the House of Assembly ju st to prove my point. tvell here is che ad and the hon . me.'llb er for 5633

June 2, 1981 Tape 2057 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow) should pay attention to this. Here is the ad, here is what the ad says: 'Family Planning, Education and Information Division, Department of Health, St. John's. Qualifications: Considerable experience in family planning including supervisory experience, Bachelor of Nursing degree supplemented by post-graduate education in family, maternal and child health at the Master's level or any equivalent combination of experience or training.' Tailor made - that was tailor made for one individual.

The officials in the Department of Health wrote that advertisement to suit one individual. I believe the government got two applications and the one that they were looking at, the decision has been postponed, the one who was the administrator of the family planning group in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, why are people objecting to this appointment? People are objecting to this appointment because of the philosophy of that organization. Does that organization encourage teenagers to terminate their pregnancies? The answer, ~x. Speaker, is, of course, yes.

Yes, they do. 'Terminate your pregnancies, have an abort~on,' that is what they advocate, and the hon. gentleman knows. Mr. Speaker, I have all kinds of documentation here in front of me to back that up. Here is a form they sent out to people who may be interested in volunteering their services for this organization. 'I am interested in working with you in the birth control clinic. I understand this will be on a sessional basis, either morning, afternoon or evening. Payment will be by billing to MCP and a portion of this will be returned to Planned Parenthood for use of facilities.

I will be able to fit diaphragms, insert IUDs, perform vasectomies, r"',..., ~I JlJ.j'+

June 2, 1981 Tape 2057 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: prescribe OCs, refer patients for termination, refer for infertility workshops, give advice and help with related gynecological problems. 'Refer patients for termination,' that means refer patients for abortion. This was the questionnaire that was sent to the medical staff of the various hospitals in this Province. Mr. Speaker, that is against the law. This outfit have been operating against the law. They have violated the Criminal Code of Canada.

The Criminal Code of Canada states that abortions will only be performed after they have been cleared by the committees in the various hospitals. MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: What are you quoting from there? I am quoting from a questionnaire that was sent to medical people, nurses and doctors. MR. HOUSE: From whom? MR. NEARY: By the Planned Parenthood Association, that has been operating, by the way, Mr.Speaker, on federal grants completely independent of the Department of Health. The Department of Health are the first to say, •we are interested in hygiene and standards,' as far as the denturists are concerned.

Well, what about this Planned Parenthood Association that has been operating laboratories with no standards, no inspections by the minister's department, operating as if they were the Department of Health, operating on their own? What about that? Now, Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of delving into this right now, but I can guarantee the minister this, that he had better establish his advisory committee before he starts hiring consultants and before he starts making policy and programmes for the schools of this Province. The hon. gentleman may find that 5635

June 2, 1981 Tape 2057 EC - 3 }ffi. NEARY : his consultant may be rejected oy the school boards and by t!le various denominations in this Province and by the !?eople of this Province. And his policies may be rejected, Mr. Speaker , by the !?eop le of this P=ovince. The hon. gentleman promised to appoint an advisory committee, and before he does it , here he is out advertising for consultants . Mr. Speaker , r will have a little more to say about ~his matter later on . There are a couple of ot!ler points that r want to raise now seeing the hon . gentleman is back in his seat .

I want to rai.se t!lat matter of t.l-}e doctor down L~ ?lacgntia who is not pe-~itted to visit his 9atients Ll"' the hospital in Placentia, Dr . Penney, who is one of the most overworked doctors, overworked physicians, in this Province, with a case load of seval"\ty to one hundred patients per day. 5636

June 2, 19 .81 Tape No. 2058 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just listen, I talked to Dr.~nney on the 'phone this morning. He told me it is virtually impossible, physically impossible for him,with the case load that he has, with the population of that area, and with the turnover in medical staff down there, the doctors in the hospital, it is virtually impossible for him to punch in the time that is being forced on him by the Department of Health in that hospital in Placentia. He just cannot do it.

And even if he did - he maybe could do it and he did it previously before he developed this case load that he has, but even at that when he did relieve in the hospital in Placentia,the Department of Health would not pay him for it, refused to pay him, refused to compensate him for his service. l<!.R. HOUSE: Nonsense. MR. NEARY: That is an absolute fact, Mr. Speaker. The minister says nonsense. It is true and the minister had better check his facts, L~at Dr. Penney did not receive one penny while he was relieving, while he was doing his shifts at that hospital. MR. HOUSE: False. J.I.!R. NEARV: It is not false.

It is true. It is not nonsense. MR. HOUSE: He got the same as everbody else. MR. NEARY: He was not getting the same as everybody else, Mr. Speaker. He did not receive one cent when ~e was - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? AN HON. MEMBER: Who stopped him? MR. NEARY: Who stopped him? The Department of Health stopped him from visiting his patients in the hospital. MR. HOUSE: He did not work (inaudible)hospital. 5637

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2058 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: He is not allowed. He can put patients in the hospital. He had a case recently in \vhich he wrote the Hinister of Health (Mr. House) about one of his patients who had a stroke and he had to treat the man within his home. He could not put him in the. hospital becaue the Department of Health would not allow him to go in to visit his Datient. DR. COLLINS: He would have gotten paid for it. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? MR. HOUSE: He would have gotten paid for it. MR. NEARY: He would not have gotten - he did not want to get paid for that.

All he wanted was the privilege, all he wanted was privileges. He wanted hospital visiting privileges. DR. COLLINS: He could treat the patient at hare and get paid br it. MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: home and get paid for it . MR. NEARY: DR. COLLINS: MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? He could treat the patient at Mr. Speaker, that is not the point. (Inaudible) . No, it is not. The hon. gentleman, I hope he has a better bed side manner than he has a grasp of the over~ll medical situation in this ~rovince. DR. COLLINS: MR. HISCOCK: MR. NEARY: You have no concept (inaudible). We are not talking about MCP . Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that that man needed hospitalization ___ ,,_,t: he could not admit him to hospital because he would not be allowed to. visit his patient. The Department of Health would not allow him to visit his patients in the hos?ital. DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible) negligent, would you say the doctor was negligent? 5630

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2058 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: I am saying the Department of Health is negligent, discriminating against the people in Placentia. HR. WARREN: MR. SPEAKER (Butt ) MR. NEARY: The Department of Health. Order, please!" Mr. Speaker, the hon. gen .tleman is an authority now on this particular subject. DR. COLLINS: The Leader of t_h.e no::osition (inaudible). HR. NEARY: The fact of the matter is, Mr. Spea~er, I have all the documentation here and I will read the letters in due course. Mr. Speaker, just listen to this. Just listen to this, Mr. Speaker. I will read the letter to, "Dr. H.R. Penney, Placentia.

Dear Dr. Penne y," and this is 1981, this is the 9th. of April 1981, "Dear Dr. Penney, We understand that you have removed your name from the duty rota of Placentia Cottage Hospital effective Thursday, April 16th., 1981. "As you are aware, included in your hospital privileges is the requirement that you be available and share with the other physicians in .the on call rota of the hospital. Your refusal to participate," because the man could not physically do it, he is working now seven days a week, eighteen hours a day, seeing 70 to 100 patients a day.

"Your refusal to participate leaves us no alternative but to withdraw all your privileges at Placentia Hospital as of the aforementioned date." MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! HR. NEARY: "We would also like to point ou-c. that it is not a temporary withdrawal - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I am sorry, the hon. member's time has expired. 5639

June 2, l98l MR. NEli.RY : MR. SPEAKER (Butt) MR. NEARY: a second. that this Tape No. 2058 NM - 4 Could I finish iC1Y paragraph, ltr. Speaker? By leave? No, well it will only take me "We would also like to point out 5640

June 2, 1981 Tape 2059 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: is not a temporary withdrawal of privileges, but rather a permanent one." AN HON. MEMBER: What? MR. NEARY: How cruel can you get. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I had not inte;:ded to speak at this time, AN HON. MEMBER: I wonder what (inaudible) to the United States. MR. HOUSE: - except I am going to respond to particularly the last item, and I wanted the opportunity to say something about this particular matter.

We have in our cottage hospitals a system whereby either we have salaried doctors who man the hospital or we have doctors on fee for services who get privileges and for these privileges they agree to , of course, man the out-patients department and to man the hospitals in emergencies. In the case of Placentia - I just want to point out the scenario of what did happen. We had four doctors there,one on salary and three fee for service and they took a night each on duty. Two of these doctors, the administrating doctor and one of the fee for service doctors left with virtually no notice and left us with two persons.

AN HON. MEMBER: Why? MR. HOUSE: Well one had a job somewhere else, and another fellow moved to another area. ?1r. Speaker, it is quite normal for people after two or three years· to move on to other areas. !-IR.. CALLAN : MR. HOUSE: it without notice. Without notice? No,it is not normal for them to do Dr.Roggeveen left after one month when he was supposed to give a three month notice, and the other person does not have an obligation, fee for service, but nevertheless, he did leave without notice. And it left two doctors there and 5641

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2059 PK - 2 MR. HOUSE: one of them said, 'I cannot look after the hospital.' We immediately brought in two more people, we got two people some of them were locums from other areas and put in the hospital. But that is the letter that we wrote to Dr. Penney. When he could not meet his obligations, we could not give him his privileges. If we did that, Mr. Speaker, we would have chaos in our hospitals in the Province. We would have utter chaos. Dr. Penney is quite free now to reapply. We have told him that he can do that, we have told him to do that, AN HON. MEMBER: MR. HOUSE: MR. NEARY: MR.

HOUSE: (Inaudible). Permanent until he accepts his obligations. (Inaudible}. Mr. Speaker, that is the situation. We have been in the area - all we can do as a Department of Health in this kind of a situation is to take away the privileges. It is up to his own organization whether they apply any sanctions. They have been out, (inaudible} discussed the matter with him. What I want to say right now is the fact that we think everything is under control in that particular hospital. We have three doctors there, two salaried doctors and Dr.

Ron Murphy who is another one of these doctors who was fee for service, who had a heavy workload. He had to carry the total load when the other person withdrew his services and I thank him very highly for the tremendous effort that he has applied in the last month in keeping that hospital operating. As a matter of fact, I will now say that we have appointed him Acting Administrator until a full-time administrator is found. MR. HANCOCK: MR. HOUSE: MR. HA.t'JCOCK: Will he be getting paid for that? Yes, he will be getting paid for that.

Is there a conflict of interest between him getting paid and running a private practice besides? 554?.

June 2, 1981 Tape 2059 PK - 3 MR . HOUSE : No none· whatsoever, (Inaudible) . for admin ister ing the hos pital they can run fee for ser vice . That is normal. So, Mr . Speaker, that is the situation and •,;e are now - he is onl y taking that on in the in ter im - we are now 1::rying to obtain the serv ice s of a full -time medical director . With respect to th e other matter raised by che hon . gentlem an, it is a matter of his opinion, of course, who should be app ointed . There has been a recommendation . The re has been no appointment mad e as yet .

The only thing I would say is t:!lat iJ'l all :natters - of course, in a lot o:: matters pertaining to appointrr.ent s 1the Advisory Committee is usually the Public Service Commission >-ihich advises on appo~n~ents. It is not necessarily any o~~er advisory group . I just mention for the - MR . NEA RY : (Ina udible) appoi~t an advisory committee . MR . HOUSE : I wis h to advi se th at a~ advisory committee is an advisory committee usually on programmes.

For in stance.wh~~ I was in Education we had an advisory committee and the advisory committee would wo rk on programmes and not on appointments · ~e advisory committee on appoin1::ments is another independent body ,of course,known as the Public Service Commission 564 3

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2060 SD - l MR. HOUSE: which I think was one of these great pieces of legislation brought about by the PC government. So , Mr. Speaker, there has been no appointment made . there has been a recommendation made but there has been no appointment made. And I just want to bring the record straight on the hospital in Placentia and that is mainly why I got up to speak because everything is under control. Dr. Penney - his name was mentioned by the hon. member because a letter was read - he can send - MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. HOUSE: - no, of course, he does not, Mr.

Speaker, nobody minds, The point is,cve depend on people to run our hospitals. In Bonavista we have to have everybody taking their turn in the night on call. They may not be called in for ten nights but they have to take a turn. This doctor refused that and we just could not give him the privileges without the responsibilities. But I am very glad to say that everything is under control and that no person has b~en refused admittance to that hospital but, of course, they will have to get another doctor to do the treating in the hospital. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Butt) : The hon. member for Eagle River . MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker, I am very, very honoured to just say a few words about the Social Services Committee. The Minister of Health (Mr. House) has sent out a letter to all the hospitals in this Province saying that they want a reduction of 4 per cent. The IGA itself and well as other hospitals-and the reason why the doctor down in Placentia is so overworked is because all the medical services in the Province are being asked to cut back and we are seeing an example o~ Dr Penney being so overworked that now he is even being given charge of the acting - 5644

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2060 SD - 2 MR. HOUSE: No, not Dr. Penney. MR. HISCOCK: - so, Mr. Speaker, the question I want to ask the Minister of Health (Mr. House) is that with this 4 per cent reduction - and going back to Cabinet to ask for money, how are we going to get more money to maintain the standard of health in this Province or .are we going to see a continual reduction and,if so, does that mean we are going to have extra billing with Medicare because we, as a Province, cannot afford it?

Now to get to a larger issue, I am rather concerned that our budget in the social sector is Sl,094,000,000 or 63 per cent of our budget and that includes Education, Social Services, Health, Municipal Affairs, Culture, Recreation and Youth, and Environment. The federal governmen~ now, Mr. Speaker_ in the last few months the five year contract with the provinces on Social Services, they pay 50 per cent to the Department of Health, so much towards education - post-secondary education - so much for various other departments in social serviees, for example, t_he majority is paid for welfare and health.

This is five years, it is now up for negotiation and the federal government says that it wants to get out of these certain areas, it also wants to get out of the 50/SO cost sharing basis, particularly after seeing so much going up in the last five years due to inflation, due to costs, due to labour, due to materials. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this House now, do we as a gover~~ent, have any team together to negotiate with the federal government? Have we started a negotiation on this? ~use, Mr.

Speaker, the federal government has made its way knows that they are going to ask the provinces to pay more for health services, they are going to ask the provinces more for the RCMP and one of the reason: Hr. Speaker, is that the country as a whole cannot afford these ever increasing costs. They cannot afford 5645

June 2, 1981 Tape No . 2060 SD - 3 ~iR. HISCOCK : to pay them. !t is $14 billion ~~at the national government is in debt ~,d if it continues to go on and costs continue to rise, it is going to be even more . So therefore the federal government ,in order to increase the national standards to welfare, to education and to health needs rrore aoney. And one of t:he ways 1 ~lr. Speaker 1 t:h e ~· are trying to get: more money is by putting a tax on .Ubertc -.>il and what do we get from Alberta . We get a reduction 1 £·lr . Speaker 1 and •.-re get the Premier of this Province and t.he Minister of Mines and Energy (~tr.

Barry ) support:ing this move, ~ - Spea~er1 so t~at t~e federal gove~~ent can actuall y get tne tax dollars and can maintain a system of M.edicare, of social services and all these other broad 5646

June 2, 1981 Tape 2061 EC - 1 M..R. HISCOCK: social issues. So I would ask the Minister of Health, have the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, who is also the Premier, the Minister of Health (Mr. House), the Minister of Education (Ms Verge), the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) , the Minister of Environment and Recreation, Culture and Youth (Mr. Andrews), and the Minister of ~unicipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) sat down - do they have a position paper ready to go the federal government saying, 'No, we cannot accept this'?

And we, as a Province, are we going to continue to support Alberta because the federal government wants a greater share of the energy? They do not want the greater share of the tax on energy by way of Alberta oil, Mr. Speaker, just for the sake of having money in the kitty. They want to make sure that we will continue to have unemployment insurance in Canada, Canada pension plan, old age pensions, Medicare and consumer subsidization of oil. And if we do not, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

HISCOCK: We as a nation, and the great Liberal Party of this nation which has brought in these reforms - we are now seeing that these great Liberal programmes are under attack by the provincial governments who say, 'No, we cannot afford to pay for them.' And yet, Mr. Speaker, when Ottawa says, 'We want to continue them,' what are we getting from the provinces? 'No, we cannot afford to pay for them. ' And when Ottawa asks for an increase in taxes, 'Oh, Ottawa is being greedy.' So it wants to keep Medicare and it wants to keep una~ployment insurance and Canada pension plan and various other groups. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to know is this committee set up? Do the various ministers have a position and are these ministers - not only the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs, the Premier - is this the stated 5647

June 2, 1981 Tape 2061 EC - 2 MR. HISCOCK: policy that we want the federal government to continue on a 50/50 cost sharing basis because we cannot afford it? And, on the other hand, the federal government says the reason why they have to up it to 55 per cent or 60 per cent or 70 per cent, -which is, by the way, negotiable - Ottawa has not set a price, it is negotiable. I am asking, is this Province negotiating? And it is not. This government is continuing, Mr.

Speaker, with outright confrontation and here we have now $1,094,000,000 which is the largest cost in our budget, 63 per cent, and because of our stubbornness and because of our confrontation with Ottawa, I will say, Mr. Speaker, that come December when this programme runs out, Ottawa will again be forced into the position by confrontation of saying to the provinces, and particularly the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, 'This is the way it is going to be.' And you will hear the Premier, and the Minister of Hines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) and the Minister of Social Services (~rr. Hickey) and the Minister of Education (.Ms Verge) getting on T.V. and condemning Ottawa for the increase when the Province cannot afford it. So I would say now, we have over six months to have a position paper to say, 'We are going to negotiate. And these are the reasons why we cannot or we can have - and I would ask that \ve have this. I would say, Mr. Speaker, we cannot have it both ways. We cannot have Ottawa doing everything for us and not allow Ottawa to have a greater tax base in the energy resource. We are not £ighting, Mr.

Speaker, a foreign government, and the way you hear some of our provinces, particularly Alberta - Alberta can af£ord to do it, ~~- Speaker. Alberta even calls the tune, and so can maybe Saskatchewan and Ontario and British Columbia. But P.E.I. and Nova Scotia and Quebec and even now Ontario, are getting into the position 5648

J1.1ne 2 , 19.Sl Tape 2061 EC - 3 !-IR. HISCOCK: where they cannot maintain the national standard. Al'ld if ••e, the poor Province of Newfoundland, ca.-mot maintain the standards of health and welfare - the Leader of ~~e Op?oSition talked abo ut the frontal teeth; if we do not get down and negotiate with Ottawa, I can say, Mr. Speaker , this Province will have no programme whatso e ver for any teeth or any social programme whatsoever . ·So, Mr . Speaker , I hope to hear from the Minister of Health (1-1r.

Souse) to find out that we have a ·team of advisers and that the ministers are having daily meetings and are coming- up with a programme so they can sit dovm face to face with ~~e various mini.sters so they can negotiate a settlement . Thank you . MR. HOOSE: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (But t } : The hon . the Minister of Health . 5649

-·--- June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2062 DW - l MR. W . .HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I just want to respond to these particular questions. MR. L. STIRLING: (Inaudible) to the dentists, are you going to respond to that? MR . W. HOUSE: looked after. That is being very capably The Department of Health - the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) is talking about '•'hether this government is negotiating with Ottawa on the progra~es for Health or for all the social services. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, we know that the last agreement, the .Established Programme Financing was agreed on five years ago and it is terminating this year. The fact is there has been ongoing discussions between all the provincial governments and that is continuing now. Our Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) heads up the programmes from this Province, gramme Financing. and,as I say, the Established Pro- It does not only affect Newfoundland, it affects every Province across Canada. So that is ongoing continuously. The fact is there have been grumblings from the federal government that the costs have gone out of hand, too high.

And, of course, that is as a result - I am of the opinion - of poor management, the (inaudible) of money, setting the provinces up, giving this and then taking back and saying, 'We should', of course, 'pick up the void now that they have to get out of it'. We had a committee here a little while ago for a visit, a Standing Committee of the House of Commons that was discussing this and savinq thev had to cut back. One of things they had thegall to say was, 'Look, you know, we do not get enough nresence in these programmes. In health', they said, 'the provincial government gets all the credit'. 5650

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2062 mv - 2 MR. W. HOUSE: So I said to them and I think some other colleagues, 'There is no problem with us if you want a presence. Sure have a presence! We do not get any credit necessarily. There is nobody out praising us for Health or Education. You know, we get knocked for not doing certain things. So they can take the credit, all the credit they want. The point is, Hr. Speaker, that is under study continuously.

I want to point out one thing to the hon. member, the whole commission ~eport completed a report a little while ago stating that the Maritimes and Newfoundland, the Atlantic Provinces 1 are 15 per cent behind the rest of Canada in health care delivery, taking time and energy, as it were,to point out that Newfoundland and the Maritime Provinces are doing all they can. They are spending now more than they reasonably can be expected to be spending.

And he suggested - his number two point in his report was that the .federal government-through federal sources more money should be come into this reason to bring us on a health care par with ~~e average in the rest of Canda. We have gone back and talked to them about this and, of course, when we met with the minister, she certainly appre­ ciated the statements of the judge in his report. And, of course, she said he would take it back to Ottawa for them to act on. MR. E. HISCOCK: Will there be an increase in Medicare? MR. W. HOUSE: Well, that is the Established Programme Financing we were talking about.

And we said that we should have more input into the rest so that we can come up to the rest of Canada. So that is where it stands now. We do not know. If the y cut back on this Province, if the E.P.F programmes are cut back 1 I do not think we can reasonably expect to maintain the quality we have. 5651

June 2, 1981 Tape No . 2062 DW - 3 MR . t-l .nOOSE : So Ottawa has lots of money to S?e nd on some of ~~e frivilou s things so I think they should be putting it into thing s, of course, that count . • ~. Speaker, with regard to Medicare ana extra billing,this Province ha s not haa extra billing .Ana, of course, at this 90int in time \.;e are not expecting to have extra biLling . There is nothing that thi s Budget thi s year does not call for extra billing . The onl y thing we have in that ,,ay is we have two doctors \1ho have opted out and, of course , they c~~ charge more than the going rate that they charge . 5652

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2063 AH-1 MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, we have an increase in the Health budget this year of about thirteen per cent over last year's Health budget. The hospitals~ we discus.sed budgets and we do this every year, discuss budgets for the hospitals, We have asked them to make certain adjustments and I am getting this report saying we will be discussing that. We are not anticipating any cutbacks in hospital services. ~R. HISCOCK: IGA says they have to. MR. HOUSE: Well IGA has written. back to us and they are saying; \'Tell this is what we can do!

We have asked them to see what they can do and I will be discussing with all hospital boards in due course. With regard to the Placentia situation - I think that was the first part of your question_ Placentia is not under a hospital board. It is operated by the department and there has been no cutback in the nwnber of doctors. There are still four there and, of course,we are hoping to maintain four. As a matter of fact we are going to try and.have three salaried doctors in that hospital rather than the three fee for service that existed.before.

So the other thing I want to point out for the hon. member's benefit is there is no such thing as a fifty/fifty sharing in this particular thing. The programmes for Health and Education- there is an amount of money that is allocated and it does not necessarily cover fifty per cent of the cost. So the cap allowance, what they call the cap allowance,for social assistance, that is a fifty/fifty but the established programmes are not, the established Financing Programme. And, of course, that is - I forget the figure now, it is designated in the budget. '1R. HISCOCK: Out of that billion dollars 5653

June 2,1981 Tape No. 2063 AH -2 MR . HISCOCK : in Social Services how much co '"e ac tually get :rom the :edera .l government, Sl.S billion? . ~~ . HOUSE : I do not know if that is the figure . I do not thi nk it is a billio n. The 1.4 billion that was referred to in some political statements includ es everything practically , old age pension , unemployment insurance payments and everything . MR . ~'lARREN : In our own budget, t~ere is Sl, 094,000,000 - that is our own budget . HO\~ much of t.'flat comes from the federal government, S400 million? MR. HOUSE : Mr. Speake r, it is here. About $400 million I suppose.

I think it is in there . It is 43 per cent or something. MR . SPEAKER {BUTT) : The hon . member for Torngat Mount ains . MR . 1-lA.RREN : Yes, ~tr . Spe aker, I '"ant to make a few remarks concerning the Department of Health and also the Depar tment of Soci al Service s. I heard on the radio this morning that the Minister of Health (Mr . House) said there were a number of tuberculosis cases reported each year in the Province . I just forget what number the minister said . MR . HOUSE : I said roughly eighty per yea r. MR. WARIU:N : ~oughly eighty per year .

I would be interested if ~~e minister would lav uoon the table of this House how many cases have been reported from the tiny community of Davis Inlet ou t of a populat ion of rougly 250 people . Of this eighty odd tuberculosis cases I would venture to say - ?offi . HOUSE : Sixty -seven last year by the way . M..~ . t-lARREN : Okay , sLxty -seven last year . ! would venture to say that close to half of those 5 ~ .- r bJ~

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2063 I.B-3 MR • WAR.'li:N : cases carne fro~ the tiny commuBity of Davis Inlet . Now, I have said to the minister for over two years now that Davis Inl et is reaching a crisis . I say again today that Davis Inlet is reaching a crisis . And it is to the point that .:here has to be something done and it has to be don.e real East . Bece1.use my sources tell me that roughly 85 per cent of the residents in Davis Inlet are ei~~er in contact with tuberculosis or are treated to prevent the tuberculosis there . Eighty - five per cent of them are sort of tied into this dreaded disease in Davis Inlet.

And the reason, Hr. Speaker, is that thiS ' government has taken Davis Inlet too lightly . Davis Inlet is taken too lightly by· this government. There has to be a major rehabilitation programme carried out and it has to be carried out Drunediately in that 5655

June 2, 1981 Tape 2064 PK - l MR. WARREN: tlny community because if not, Mr. Speaker r- it came to the point last year that the captains of the CN boats and the pilots of the aircraft had second thoughts about landing there because tuberculosis was so bad that the people on the boats were sometlffies told, 'Look, there :ls tuberculosis in Davis Inlet so act accordingly,' sort of thing. So, Mr.

Speaker, I am begging this government to take whatever action is necessary to stop this disease from becoming more widespread and now it is beginning to spread out on the Labrador Coast, in other places there are signs of tuberculosis. Now, Mr. Speaker, I strongly urge this government to look seriously at Davis Inlet. The reason, Mr. Speaker, that this problem is galning magnitude, is increasingr if we go back to 1979, when the session opened in 1979 it was one ofthe first concerns I brought into this hon. House, that the government should look seriously at Davis Inlet.

And the problem since 1979 has not gotten any better, it has gotten worse. Now, Mr. Speaker, why has this problem gotten worse? I can give you two or three answers. One of the answers is because of the living conditions, the houses that have been supplied by the government of the day are not fit. And, Mr. Speaker, the store that is operated by this government, that has fresh meats, fruits, and vegetables, is not fit to be open to the public, ~1r. Speaker. This is another problem, fresh fruits and vegetables and fresh meats go into ti1is store but this store should not be open to the public, Mr.

Speaker, because all it is doing is bringing in disease. AN HON. MEMBER: Who opened it? 5556

June 2, 1981 Tape 2064 PK - 2 MR. WARREN: The store belongs to this government, the Department of Rural, Agricultural, and Northern Development, They operate and own this store, and that store should not be opened at this present day , Mr. Speaker. And the people of Davis Inlet do not want it open but they need some alternative, and that opportunity is there. The government is spending so much money on a house for the Premier of this Province that they should be doing something to save the lives of those people on the Labrador Coast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, last year this government collected $53 million in the sale of alcoholic beverages and beer. Now they are planning to put out $230,000 into a rehabilitation programme, $87,700 in Labrador. Now, Mr. Speaker, recently in one of the committees, my colleague from Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) suggested that we cut out the sale of beer and alcoholic beverages to the Northern Coast. I do not necessarily agree with his statement, Mr .. Speaker. However, I do not agree with what the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) said either. Do you know what the Minister of Social Services said? AN HON.

MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. WARREN: I will repeat what the Minister of Social Services said. He said, he answered, 'Not by turning off the taps. I suggest it would drive them stark raving mad and they will probably do the same thing cold sober: That is what he said about the native people of Labrador. ~ffi. FLIGHT: And that is published - MR. WARREN: And that has e;one right across Canada, and the Toronto Globe and Hail. Now, Mr . Speaker, that is what an hon. minister of this Crown said 5657

June 2, 1981 Tape 2064 PK - 3 MR. WARREN: about the native people living in Labrador. 'r suggest that if we stop the beer and the liquor going in there what they will do is go ahead and kill anybody regardless! Basically this is what the minister is saying, 5658

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2065 SD - 1 11R. WARREN : Mr. Speaker, and I think that is the wrong approach, that is the kind of approach that this government is making towards Labrador. The Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) that is ~vho said it, the Minister of Social Services who should be doing a rehabilitation programme not only for the people in Labrador but for the people all around this Island, Mr. Speaker. I agree there is too much drinking of beer and liquor all throughout this Province. .~d there should be a sensible and realistic rehabilitation programme carried out and this is what is wrong. MR.

FLIGHT: Read his answer again. MR. WARREN: I will read his answer the second time what the minister said, yes, sure. By the way, the minister did not acrree with my colleague's remarks about cutting off the liquor there and I do not agree with them either, I do not agree with my colleague's remarks either because I think there are other ways to do it instead of cutting off the social supply. Now here is what the. minister said. :m. HANCOCK: ----- They will only get them drunk and they will go to sleep linaudible) . MR.

WARREN: Okay, he agreed with the MHA on the magnitude of the problem, he agreed that the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) said there is a problem. The department's budget for the Native Alcoholic Rehabilitation Programme is $87,700 this .year. But as for turning off the taps~ I will repeat one more time, Mr. Speaker, in case some hon. ma~ers on the other side of the House did not really hear what is quoted in the Toronto Globe and Mail from coast to coast, about the native people, the Aboriginal people in Northern Labrador, my constituents and the people I am proud of,by the way.

Hear is what he said,'I suggest it would drive them stark raving mad and they will probably do the same thing cold sober'. Now, that is what the Minister 5659

June 2, 1981 T~pe No. 2 Q65 RA - 2 MR. WARREN: of Social Services said about Aboriginal people, Inuit a,nd Ind.i-an people <~,nd other residents along the Northern Labrador coast. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: Resign, resign, resign. Speaking for the Peckford administration, that is what he said, MR. WARREN: Today, Mr. Speaker, in The Daily News today, there was a call asking for the minister's resignation. There was a call asking for the minister's resignation today because of those un­ kindly remarks towards the people. Is that the way you are going to solve a problem?

Is that the kind of way that this government plans to solve problems in this House? MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, it is better for him ·- and not to do with the kind of alcoholic programme that he is doing in Northwest River.There is another kind of a programme we want to see administered. We want to see a programme that will involve the people, not just go into an office and sit down and write reports. That is not the answer to the problem. The answer to the problem, Mr.

Speaker, is getting in with the people, talking with the people and talking about the culture or anything else with the people but not just writing reports on hearsay. And I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the minister should not only withdraw those remarks but he should send an apology letter to all the people on the Northern Labrador coast, right from Rigolet to Nain 1 those people that he has .j_nsulted, And it is ridiculous, Mr. Speaker, when one should look at those kind of remarks coming out in national papers,concerning th~ voters of this Province. And I assure this nonourable House that when the next 5660

~-. ·- June 2, 1981 --Tape No. 2065 RA -3 MR. WARREN: election is called, when the next election is called, Mr. Speaker, I am sure I am not going to have too much difficulty in getting re-elected. But I assure you this much,that the way that this government is carrying on-I will make sure that-there are other things in Labrador too that will come back to the Liberal fold. Naskaupi will come back to the Liberal fold, as Menihek will come back to the Liberal fold. And I know, Mr. Speaker, because this government's attitude towards Labrador is at the lowest ebb ever and I strongly suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that the government will pay more attention to the social and health problems related to the peo?le in Northern Labrador. MR. FLIGHT: What would the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) say about that line? MR. SPEAKER(Butt ) : The hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes has about eight and one-half minutes at which time (inaudible) MR. HANCOCK: I will only need to take half of it Mr. Speaker, but I want to get some answers. AN HON. MEMBER: Take it all. MR. HANCOCK : Mr. Speaker, I want to get back on this Placentia issue again and I want to get some answers from the minister if it is at all possible. MR.

NEARY: You will not get them. MR. HANCOCK: But, Mr. Speaker, Dr. Penney never- MR. NEARY: He does not know what goes on in this House. MR. HA."l"COCK: - he never thought lightly of bringing this matter to the Opposition, Mr. Speaker. He had no alternative, he contacted - MR. NEARY: Ignored, ignored. MR. HANCOCK: -his member in Placentia (Mr. Patterson) \"Tho did not want to help him in an y wax; then he contacted his federal member, ~1r. Crosbie 1who you cannot fine 5661

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2065 RA - 4 MR. HANCOCK: these daysJ you have to go to a function and pay forty dollars, but he is lucky to get forty dollars I guess to hear him speak, Mr. Speaker. Well, Mr. Speaker, this matter was brought to me long be­ fore Dr. Penney brought it to me,as a doctor in Placentia Mr. Speaker. If I have patients who are dying not be­ cause they cannot get to see Dr.Penney but -I have two in particular who have c.a.and they are in hospital and were denied the right to see the doctor who had been treat­ ing them for that disease for some six or seven years, Mr.

Speaker, the doctor of their choice, the doctor that they wanted to see and were denied, Mr. Speaker, by this govern­ ment, this honest, open and downright government in power now, Mr. Speaker, denied the right to see their doctor by choice, Mr. Speaker. They could not get to see the doctor who was treating them for five or six years. That, Mr. Speaker, is a policy that should be done away with in this House this afternoon, Mr. Speaker. It should be done away with. Dr. Penney did not withdraw his services lightly from that hospital.

He is one of the best doctors in Placentia I would go as far as to say 1 from general comments that I have had from people in that immediate area. He is one of the most respected doctors there. Mr. Speaker, whether the government likes it or not whatever his political colour is, it does not bother me but he is one of the most respected doctors in the Placentia area, Mr. Speaker, and by two doctors resigning from private practice, Mr. Speaker, left him in an awkward position where - MR. S. NEARY: MR.

HANCOCK: The heaviest workload in Newfoundland. - he has one of th.e heaviest work- loads I would say,per capita,in any district in this Province, Mr. Speaker. The man is worked up to his eyeballs, he is at it da y and nioht. Mr. Spea ker. what do you thi nk the man is? He cannot be on cal l twent y h ours a day, he has to get some sleep, he cannot be in hospital all day looking 5562

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2066 IH.- 1 MR. EANCOCK: after ten or twelve thousand patients at the same time. It is a policy that should be done away with and the minister should take the initative and have the intestinal fortitude to do away with it immediately, Mr. Speaker. I wonder how many doctors in the city of St. John's, MD's are on call at hosp- itals, Mr. Speaker? I wonder how many? Why should the people in rural Newfoundland be discriminated against over and above the people in St. John's, Mr. Speaker? There are enough staff in the hospitals of St.

John's to look after the faces that are admitted to that hospitial, Mr. Speaker. Why should it be any different .in Placentia? It should not be any different:, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. HANCOCK: It should not be any different, Mr. Speaker. People in this Province were created equally anc they should be treated equally, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RANCOCK: There should be no discrimination whatsoever. If a patient in my district wants to visit the doctor, then that right should not be taken away from him Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: This is P.C. policy. MR.

HANCOCK: This is not Liberal policy, Mr. Speaker. The Liberals would never bring in such a policy as this, Mr. Speaker. It would never be implemented, it would be done away with. The people out there would do away with it, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RANCOCK: It was bad enough in the district of St. Mary's -The Capes that we lost our drug dispensary. Well that was burden enough on the people, Mr. Speaker. That was insult enough_ MR. H.ll.NCOCK: -Mr. Speaker, that the people had to travel and get a taxi and which cost m::Jre to hire than the 5~63

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2066 IE - 2 )1R. HANCOCK: rruCTs cost themselves. It cost more to get to the pharmacist in Placentia to purchase their drugs than the cost of the drugs themselves, ~~. Speaker. They did away with an essential servicE thac was essential to the people of the Cape Shore. And now to tell patients W;bD are being serviced by Dr . Penney, that they can :to longer vi sit him in hospitial, Mr. Speaker, is ridiculous, M.r. Speaker . I would call upon the Minister to do a1.;ay with it immediately, to make sure that. Dr . Penney can .like any othe r doctor in St .

John' s vr in Corner Brook or in · Grand Falls, go and visit his sick patients in hospitial, at the patients request, Mr. Speaker. It should be allowed, there should no discrL~ination asainst any~ody or any person Lq this Province Mr. Speaker. Why shou ld Placentia be treated any differently~ St. Clare's, or the Health Sciences Cat;llex, or ti:e - ~!R . NEARY: The Grace. MR. HANCOCK : - t!le Grace aospitial, Mr . S.peaker. A hospitial is a hospitial aP-d if they can staff a ~ospitial in St .

Jo~~·s, then they should be able to staff a hospitial in Placentia 'Jl1d let the. doctor carry on in his usual manner in his privace practice, ~. Speaker. 5 .._ ~ I bb'l

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2067 GS - 1 MR. H1>.NCOCK : So I would urge the minister, Mr. Speaker, to look into this matter and seriously see if he can have Dr. Penney - Dr. Penney would love to be on call in a hospital but he cannot be in two places at the one time, Mr. Speaker, he is only human. He is a human being who cannot be in two places at one time. He would love to be on call in the hospital , he told me, seven days a week if he had nothing else ~o do, and he feels that he should not be denied the right to visit his patients in hospital, Mr. Speaker.

It is an insult to a man to tell him, an insult I might add to the patient, ~r. Speaker. I have had calls from patients who wanted to see Dr. Penney because they have known the rnan ·personally for three or four years and they wanted him to visit them in hospital but were denied the right, a policy implemented by this government, Mr. Speaker, an~ which can only be changed by this government, Mr. Speaker. So I would ask the minister to give this matter some serious consideration, some serious consideration and go down and straighten this matter out irnrnedi?tely so ~hat Dr. Penney - and I have to emphasize, Mr.

Speaker, because it does not seem to hitting horne that a doctor cannot visit the patients or the patients cannot see their doctor by choice. The government is now taking away that right, Mr. Speaker. They are taking away the right of the patients and the doctors of this Province, Mr. Speaker. It happens all the time. It will only haopen in a government that we have in power now, Mr. Speaker, It would never happen in any civilized country because they would revolt against such measures.

They would not put up with it, they would not tolerate it. ~~- NEARY: They will defeat the member the next time as a result of that policy. 5665

June 2, 1981 Tape No . 2067 GS - 2 MR . HA..'IICOCK : If I was the member from Placentia, I would be very concerned over this ~atter ~ but Dr. ?enney - I might tell the minister that the member is a lot more popular in Placentia than the member is right now . He is a lot more popular in Placentia than the member is right now. ~ . NEARY: (Inaudible) . ~1.~ . F.AZ'ICOCK : He is a well established man. ae has built a reputation in ?lacentia barring none, .~ . Spe~~er . He is more popular i~ Placentia than the member . 5G 56 .-

June 2, 1981 Tape 2068 EC - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HANCOCK: I do not know if he is going· to run for us in Placentia because I think we have our candidate in place out there. There will be no more two or three candidates running and getting a Tory elected because of Liberal stupidity, that will not happen any more, I can assure the hon. member. But he may run somewhere, Mr. Speaker, because he denounces the policy - SOME HON. MEMBERS: ~~. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. HANCOCK: Oh, oh! Order, please! set forward by this qovernment, Mr. Speaker. It is doing away with a democratic right.

It was a right that was fought for in World Wars I and II, Mr. Speaker, that the Province could have - MR. NEARY: Right on! Right on! MR. HANCOCK: - and it is now in jeopardy of being taken away from us. It is something that should not be taken away from any doctor, I do not care if he is in a Tory riding, a Liberal riding or an NDP riding, if there were one in the Province, Mr. Soeaker.. MR. NEARY: 'Ihey think they are white nigge!:"s down there. MR. HANCOCK: It is bad enough, Mr.

S9eaker, to have to travel to Placentia from my district, and my district is serviced by the cottage hospital in Placentia, but when you drive over twenty or thirty miles of dirt road to get to a doctor and then realize when you are admitted to hospital that you cannot have the right to see your doctor - MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. HANCOCK: - and this government only laughs, it is a big joke. It is a big joke that a patient cannot get to see his doctor by choice. It is a big joke, ~x. Speaker. It is one of the jokes that is going to defeat this government the next time around, Mr. Speaker. 5657

June 2, 1981 Tape 2068 EC - 2 MR • HANCOCK : It is not the big issues that are going to ~in elections, it is the little issues . It is the potholes and the roads they have to drive over, Mr . Spea.'<er, ti'.at this government is not doing a.nything about, not taking the initiative to look after the needs of the people who elect them . I will be awfully surprised, Mr.Speaker, if we do not have to appoint an Opposition the next time a.round . 'iou can mark it down, you can get as cocky and as confident as you like , Mr .

Speaker, but there is such a thing as getting over cocky and over confident, and I am very much afraid tha~ is hao9ening - not only to the Premier, I mean,he has always been a little bit cocky by nature. aut the rest of the ma~ers are getting into the same trend, the same thought . Because we have too many Tory members, a lot of seats outside the overpass, Mr. Speaker. 5Boo

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2069 IB-1 MR. HANCOCK: There is more to Newfoundland than urban Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker. There is a rural part of this Province, Mr. Speaker. It has been Liberal for years. But they decided they were going to give the Premier a chance. They hav~ given you a chance and I am very optimistic that they will make the right decision the next time around, Mr. Speaker, and not only vote Liberal, vote for principles, Mr. Speaker, vote for rights that have been taken away from them.

They want to see justice in thatpartof this Province, So I would urge the minister to give this matter some serious consideration, some serious thought. It is not a joking matter, Mr. Speaker. It is something that affects several people in that area. It affects people in my district, in Placentia and, I think, there are some cases even from Whitbourne. That is how popular the doctor is, he has got patients that visit him from Whitbourne. MR. PATI'ERSCN: St. Mary's is going to get thrown in with Placentia in the next election. MR.

HANCOCK: You would like to have it thrown in with Placentia because you may have a chance of winning it then. But it will not happen the next time around. MR. NEARY: You would not take Kelly's Island now this time let alone Placentia. MR. HANCOCK: You would not take it. You have not got the intestinal fortitude to take forty­ five miles of dirt road and put it in your district. ~ffi. SPEAKER (SIMMS) : Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member has one minute. MR. HANCOCK: Merasheen Island is the only place you would win the next time. But, Mr. Speaker, 5659

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2069 IB -2 MR . !fANCOCK: we will see what happens when ~~e next election is called. But I am afraid it is little proble.'tls like this , :-tr . Speaker, that mean so much to the ordinary Newfoundlanders . On ce again it goes back to rights that are being taken away, rights that are being cenied by - who else, Mr . Speaker? - but this poor, honest, open and down to earth government that we see in power now , 11r . Speak er. These are the ones, Mr . Speaker, who are ta~ing away the right s o= the people, not the Opposition . It wa s bad enough to take away the drug dispensar y - noo Mr .

Speaker, the Premier is not aware that people have to travel over forty miles of dirt road to pick up drugs ,.. that .. _.,e :·linister of Heal til (Mr . Eouse ) closed down two years ago • 5670

June 2, 1981 Tape 2070 EC - 1 MR. HANCOCK: It is not bad enough that they have to travel to Placentia to pick up drugs but now they have to go and they cannot even see their own doctor by choice - Mr. Speaker, by choice cannot see their own doctor. That is hard to believe, ~x. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Shocking! MR. HANCOCK: I know my time is up, Mr.Speaker. I thank the House for this opportunity to bring out these points and I hope the minister takes them seriously. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Hear, hear! Order, .please!

The time has expired for the concurrence debate on the report of the Social Services Estimates Committee. Is it the pleasure of the House that the report of the Committee be concurred in? Those in favour, 'Aye', contrary, 'Nay'. I declare the motion carried. MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Next order? Resource Committee. Oh, oh! Order, please! We are still on Order 3, the concurrence debate on the Resource Committee Estimates and we will be discussing Heads, the Department of Mines and Energy, Fisheries, Development, Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development and Forest Resources and Lands. St.

John's West. MR. BARRETT: The hon. the member for Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In moving the concurrence to the estimates for these departments of government, I would like to first of all commend the ministers and the officials of their respective staffs who attended the deliberations of 5671

June 2, 1981 Tape 2070 EC - 2 MR. BARRETT : the Cornrni ttee in reviewing t .hese estimates for the current budgetary period. This Committee spent some t;venty hours reviewing the heads to which it was referred, being Department of Development , ~~es ~~d Energy, Fisheries, Forest Resources and Lands, Ruxal, Agricultural and Northern Dev elopment. The Committee, I think, as a whole were quite diligent in the review of these estimates a."l.d it is certaL~ly indicative of the success in be.ing aple to do an in-depth. study of the various expenditures o£ the departments . It is interesting to note als.o, Mr .

Speaker, that at each session that this Committee met, there was attendance by members of this House of .1:\.ssembly who we.re not regular members o£ that Cornrni ttee . 56;; 2

June 2, 1981 Tape No. 2071 GS - 1 MR. BARRETT: I think that it is quite significant and quite important to get the views and observations expressed by other interested persons other than those assigned to the specific committee. This sector of the departments of government accounts for approximately 18 per cent of the total expenditures of government.

The Department of Development expends some $38.2 million of public funds; the Department of Mines and Energy, some $55.9 million; the Department of Fisheries, $28.6 million; the Department of Forest Resources and Lands, $32.7 million; the Department of ~ural, Agricultural and Northern Development, $32.1 million. These departments of government employ some 969 people in various positions providing noble service to government and to the people at large of this Province.

The services these people give, I think, areillost commendable and it is interesting as well to note that the salary paid for this work amounts to some $27.5 million annually. This averages some $28,000 per person. This is quite remarkable that an average of this can be attained and certainly suggests that the public sector is being well recognized for their endeavours and paid accordingly.

In reviewing s~rne of the issues that carne out of our deliberations - and I would probably like to skim very quickly through the various departments and starting with the Department of Development - it is interesting to note that in the development organizations supported by this department, a great deal of money is expended in research and development areas. Some $2 million is funded to NORDCO to help in its ocean research and development programs. Some $6.2 million to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, this is development organizations- 5573

June 2, 1981 Tape 2072 PK - 1 MR. BARRETT: Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation under construction are exrending sarre $7 millio<l. of public funds this year. In special projects,the Labrador shipping probe into Lake Mel ville is being funded to the extent of $800,000. This should provide a great benefit - MR. WARREN: Federal government money. MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. BARRETT: this part of the Province. - to the economic future of It is significant to note in this year's estirrates that there has been no budgetary allocation for any deficit envisaged by the Marystown Shipyard.

This would certainly suggest that the management initiatives that have been taken by government to correct the situation and improve the situation at that yard and the determination of the people who work there amounted to virtually eliminating an operating deficit from this facility. In the tourism facilities it is interesting to note that some $2.3 million has been allocated for new construction. The Department of Mines and Energy, a significant part of this department is the amount of expenditure in mineral development.

Some $3 million has been allocated in this particular part of the department for the corning year. The Renewal Energy Demonstration Programme in co-operation with the federal gover<1.ment,is going to cost some $4 million for this current year. Under the Department of Mines and Energy,jurisdiction and supervision extends to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro Corporation. Some $35 million of public funds are expended in this department for this particular operation. The Lower Churchill Development Corporation, there will be a further expenditure of $5.1 million 5674

June 2, 1981 Tape 2072 PK - 2 MR. BARRETT: in this department. The Department of Mines~d Energy also controls and operates the Office of the Petroleum Directorate, which has a significant input into the offshore management and control of our resource. The Department of Fisheries 5675

June 2, 1981 Tape 2073 EC - 1 MR. BARRETT: is again notably concerned with fish facilities and services. Marine facility operations, $4.4 million; fishing gear supplements, $300,000; construction, acquisition, fixed assets, fish handling facilities, Inshore Fishing Development programme, special assistance to community projects and the like account for another $6 million.

Under Fisheries Technology, special services include fishing vessel experimental programmes, agriculture, inshore fishery enhancement programmes, research and development, product market development progr~es, some $2 million of public expenditure; construction of experimental fishing vessels, $1 million; fishery loans and assistance, a continuing programme by this government, is exemplified by a further $7 million into this programme in large and small fishing boat programmes and reconstruction and Fisheries Loan Board operations.

Forest Resources and Lands: Of paramount importance, of course, is this year's snray orogramme. Insect control, $2.5 million; forestry protection, the air services related to the Forest Fire Control programme, in excess of $4 million;