Volume XL Tuesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Fourth Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable P.]. McNicholas Number 23 · 26 April 1988

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Just before Statements by Ministers I would like to, on behalf of members of the House, pass on my congratulations to one of the members of the House who, over this past weekend, - was presented with an honourary life membership by the Royal . Canadian Legion, Branch 29 in Burin, the first honourary life membership that that Branch has given. I understand it was given for the respect that they have for the member and for the work that he has done.

This goes very nicely with the recent honour given him by .the Kinsmen Association, that of a life membership as well. I refer, of course, to the member for Burin Placentia West (Mr. Tobin). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member ·for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, of course we would like to join in congratulating our colleague in the legislature on that honour that was bestowed on him by the people of Burin, and by the people of Newfoundland, and by the Kinsmen Club. Ll165 April 26 , 1988 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was hoping to direct my question to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard), but he does not appear to be in the House today. Therefore, I would like to direct my question to the hon. the Premier. With reference to reports. about pollution levels at the fluorospar mine at St. Lawrence, would the Premier tell the House why · the appropriate ventialtion systems have not been put in place and why · the followup has not been done in the past year by the Minister of Labour's department? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I w.i ll get the information on the matter for the hon. member, hopefully today, and pass it along to the House. I do n-ot think, though, that that some .of the things in · h.is question are valid, but I will have it checked out. I did hear the Minister of Labour make some statements on it. this morning which tended to contradict the story that was carried over the weekend, but I will get the appropriate information for the hon. member. No. 23 Rl165

MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, t.he bon. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: the While I appreciate that the Premier is going to undertake to get the information, would he also undertake to explain why officials of the Department of Labour have stated in correspondence that the work was not done and the checks were not made, yet assurances were given to the people of St. Lawrence and to the Town Council? Could he tell us how those statements could come together and tell us why this situation has been allowed to happen, to occur? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: As I indicated, Mr. will get the relevant for the hon. member. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker.. MR. SPEAKER: Speaker, I information The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Premier. We noticed recently a new pamphlet, that has hit the streets in Newfoundland, I assume, called Cucumber Recipes from Newfoundland Enviroponics, with a foreword written by the Premier, who is, in his own right, an author. I would like to who paid for publication? Was public money?

If ask the Premier this particular it paid for by so, how much Lll66 April 26, 1988 Vol XL money did it cost? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Once again, Mr. Speaker, I do not have it off the top of my head, but I will get it for the han. member. MR. FUREY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. FENWICK: The Premier says in his foreword 'This recipe book is designed to reverse the lack of consumption and to help tap the market that is as yet undeveloped here,' ... in Newfoundland.

T. would like to ask the Premier how does that statement in his foreword jibe with his statements of a year and a half ago that markets were already secured, . particularly domestic markets, where there is a high demand for these cuc~bers? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what is happening. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle· Isle. MR. DI':CKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the han. the Premier as well. It refers to his latest publication, which I congratulate him on, of course.

If this cook book is a smashing success,· I say to the No. 23 Rl166

Premier, and does indeed bring the Newfoundland cunsumption of cucumbers up to the Canadian average, Newfoundlanders will then be consuming exactly two-sevenths o.f the proposed production of the Sprung greenhouse leaving only five-sevenths to be marketed. Will the Premier tell this House whether or not he will then publish another cook book in order to bring the Newfoundland consumption up to three and one half times the Canadian average so that the total production could be consumed here in Newfoundland? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: All ideas will be consideration, including member's.

MR. DECKER: given the hon. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary . MR. DECKER: The Premier will know that this cook book clearly states that only Newfoundland cucumbers should be used in the recipes , and I refer him to page 6 , the recipe which really caught my attention. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . .DECKER : Page 6 is the recipe which caught my attention, Mr. Speaker.

Tt refers to 'Yum Yum Pickles,' 'Really Yummy,' six quarts of sliced Newfoundland pickles.' I ask the would the Premier advise what would be the consequences if someone were to use imported cucumbers, either by mistake or, more . likely, because imported L1167 April 26, 1988 Vol XL cucumbers are an awful lot cheaper? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, a disaster. MR. DECKER: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPRAKER: A final supplementary. MR.

DECKER: The hon. the Premier, who himself is a published aut.hor, should know that works of fiction generally carry a statement saying, 'this is a work of fiction.' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DECKER: Page 10 indicates that his is a humorous piece of work: "If my Hubby called and · said, 'Dearie, company for dinner, ' I would be proud to whip this up." Does the Premier intend .for this publication to be treated as a serious work or have the Newfoundland people just paid for a Newfoundland joke book? MR. SPRAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, 'All the world's a stage, I And all the men and women merely players:/ They have their exits and their entrances;/ And one man in his time plays many parts.' MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . No. 23 Rll67

MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure how to continue on after that introduction. I'fy question, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister of Labour but, in his absence, it will be for the Premier, who, I believe, is also cognizant of the problem. It has to do with the problem that individuals who are accessing their files with the Workers' Compensation Conunission and the problems they have with the bills that they have to pay in order to duplicate the files in order to access them.

We have been told by the Workers' Compensation Conunission that individuals needing the files, either for arbitration cases or for appeals, have to pay twenty-five cerits a page and, in some instances, have been forced to pay as much as $80 in order to get the~r files. I understand t.hat both the Premier and other members of Cabinet have been aware of that. MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

FENWICK: My question to the Premier is this: Is there a correction being made to this policy so that individuals who need their Workers' Compensation files can access them without having to pay as much as $80 in order to get them? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. the Speaker, I will have to get information for the hon. member. MR. FENWICK: Lll68 April 26, 1988 Vol XL A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supp 1 ementary, I'. he han. member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: the Mr.

Speaker, T have here a bill sent by the Workers' Compensation Conunission of Newfoundland and Labrador to an individual asking for $29.25 in order to access their file, and I will be glad to give the Premier a copy of it.

My question to the Premier is this: Since this is an added burden .for individuals who w~sh to either appeal decisions being made by the conunission and it is also an added burden to individuals who need th~ files, in some instances, in order to go to arbitration to get their jobs back when they have been fired or have been dismissed due to medical reasons, will the Premier stand up and give us a conunitment. now to change the policy so that these individuals do not have to pay these bills under the Freedom of Information legislation in order to access their files? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will check that out for the hon. member and get back to him. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister No. 23 R1168

of Public Works (Dr. Twomey). In the report of the exceptions to the Public Tendering Act, March 1 to March 31, automobiles were purchased for the Minister of Environment and the Minister of Labour, and they used the

section of the act, 3. 2 (b), which reads, "Where the estimated cost of work or acquisition is equal to or less than $30,000 and - it appears to the head of the government funded body that in view of the nature of the work or acquisition it is not advisable to invite public tenders": How does the minister justify the purchase of these automobiles under this

section of other act? Because until this time automobiles were purchased by public tender. So what was the basis for not inviting public tender to cover those purchases? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister ·of Public Works. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you. During the estimates · on last Thursday, I believe you asked that question. I told you I did not have the details at that particular time and I further informed you that I would get the details. I have asked for these details and I will table them in the House as promised. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir. f'fR. GILBERT: Now, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Housing (Mr. Peach), in response to a written questio~ from my colleague for St. Barbe (Mr. Lll69 April 26, 1988 Vol XL Furey), stated that his vehicle was purchased after telephone quotations to three dealerships and then he finally accepted one in - stock from one of the dealers. Now it would seem to me - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GILBERT: - Mr. Speaker, that the process used here ts the same as buying a vehicle.

Now my question is: In view of this would the minister not admit that The Public Tendering Act has been violated? SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. After I have seen the report I will table it in the House, in detail, as I had promised you on last Thursday. MR. GILBERT: A final supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR . GILBERT: I do not think the minister understood the question . This is concerning another. purchase made by Newfoundland and Labrador Housing.

But, anyhow, t.o go onto my final supplementary, as the minister is aware 580 government bodies are suppose to report exception to The No. 23 Rll69

Public Tendering Act. In 1987, only twenty-one reported. Newfoundland and Labrador Housing did not report the purchase of the minister's car. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GILBERT: My question is: What action is the minister going to take to ensure that all exceptions to The Public Tendering Act are reported? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. DR.

TWOMEY: All the departments of government, all the agencies of government which have in any way made exceptions to The Public Tendering Act and they inform me, their names are written in the booklet that I published in this House, I believe, last week. These are the only ones that I · know have taken exception to the act. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! IofR. GILBERT: I hope the people o.f Newfoundland rest easy tonight. MR. EFFORD: Mr . Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the hon. the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Simms). It is in relation to the Task Force on Employment Equity which was Lll70 April 26 , 1988 Vol XL passed over to the President of Treasury Board in January, 1987. Now one of the greatest problems with the disabled and the handicapped in the Province is the opportunity of finding jobs, especially within the civil service of this government.

Now I would like to ask the President of Treasury Board, since rec~iving that in January, 1987, could he give us some idea of what steps have been taken on the recommendations placed in this report to place the disabled and handicapped into the civil service of this government? MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr.esident of Treasury Board. MR. SIMMS: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all the report was not placed in my hands in January of 1987. I did not become President of Treasury Board until January of 1988, so that is one correction.

But to answer his question specifically, we have a division within Treasury Board itself which deals with the entire Employment Equity Programme. Employment Equity applies to opportunities not only for disabled but for women and other groups in society, and that is a programme, I guess, that has been I suppose uppermost in the minds of members of this government since the Affirmative Action Programme was put in place and the Task Force gave its report. Specifically with respect to the disabled, I believe my predecessor (Mr. Windsor), if I am not mistaken - MR. WINDSOR: I launched a major programme last year.

No. 23 Rl170

MR. SIMMS: - yes, late last year, the latter part of 1987, announced at a public press conference some of the steps that would be taken to offer better job opportunities, and so on, for the disabled. I would suggest to the hon. member, if he wishes, I will get him a copy of that press statement and maybe he would have a better understanding of what the government has decide~ to do. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker the answer given by the President of Treasury Board is just as shameful as the work he has been doing on this Task Force.

I dir'ected my question to the Pr'esident of Treasury Board, but I did not say that he had r'eceived the report. I said that the Treasury Board had had this copy since last January, not the President of Tr'easury Board himself. It is just shameful. I would ask the minister, since he had taken over in January, in the upcoming year', with the budget that is presently before the Estimates Committee to be appr'oved, how many handicapped people will be hired on within the civil service in the upcoming year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr'esident of Treasury Boar'd. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, I hate to disagree with my han. friend, who is such a nice fellow, but I am certain that Lll71 April 26, 1988 Vol XL the

preamble to his question said what have you done about this since you had this in your hands since January of 1987. That is what he said. Now he says that he did not say it. Anyway, that is a minor point - MR. EFFORD: A very minor point. MR. SIMMS: - but the hon. use it in his supplementar'ies, that minor. member decided to

preamble on the so it cannot be Now, Mr. Speaker, the policy that has been in place is that each department of government would make efforts to try to improve, to enhance the opportunities for the disabled in the public ser'vice. And the depar'tments themselves ar'e expected to try to implement t.his policy as soon as they can. The policy was announced only late last year, as I said, a few months ago, but I would be happy to get a copy of the policy as outlined by my predecessor' at a public press conference and let him read through it so that he will understand how the policy and programme is to be implemented.

MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I know we can go on technicalities, but the minister' is a member of the Cabinet of his government, so he should know some of the answers. And let me say to the minister, the President of Treasury Board, that there are going to be fifteen handicapped people tr'ained this year. No. 23 Rll71

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. EFFORD: While the President of Board does not know how know how many. Treasury many, I T will direct my final supplementary to the Minister of Public Works (Dr. Twomey). On pages 46, 4 7, and 48 there is a total of eighteen recommendat.ions put forth . in this Task Force report and several of them, numbered 14, 15, 16, and 17, are in relation to the Department of Public Works providing accessibility to government buildings in and around the Province, and to Confederation Bull ding, so that the handicapped people can avail themselves and at least get into the buildings.

I would ask the Minister of Public Works have any of these recommendations - 14, 15, 16 or 17 - been implemented since this Task Force report was received in January of 1987. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works. DR. TWOMEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It has been the desire and the wish of the Department of Public Works and Services and government to make any ne\"1 buildings, nu.rnber one, accessible for disabled people. And during the past few years, it is my understanding, that they have made other buildings readily accessible to those who are disabled. Rome was never built in a day.

And I wish that we could wave the magic wand and say 'Open, Sesame' and everything would be L1172 April 26, 1988 · Vol XL available. But I can tell you there is a will and a desire to met these commitments. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question .is to the hon. the Premier and it concerns the sale of Terra Nova Tel.

As the Premier knows, there has been great concern expressed that the town of Gander would suffer from yet another very serious loss of employment, and the Premier has, in the past while, guaranteed that there would be no affect on the town of Gander from the sale and that there would be protection in the process as it unfolds. My question to the Premier is this: The bids have now been called for; about a week ago they were called for.

What input has the Premier had into the process so far in the formulation of these bid documents and what protection is offered the town of Gander concerning job losses in these bid doctments? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, T have not read the bid documents yet, but I think t.hey are on their way to us now. As the hon. member may he a\lrare, I have indicated to the federal government, a long time ago now, and in the last several weeks, the position of the Government of Newfoundland as it relates to the sale of Terra Nova Tel.

The position is clearly, one, that the headquarters remain in Gander and, two, that the existing employees No. 23 R1172 /

not be affected and be re-employed with the new company, whoever wins the bid. I have made that clear in writing to the federal government, so that is t.he input that I have had. I have talked to our federal representative in the Cabinet of the Government of Canada about it and written him on it. I have also met with representatives fl:·om the Council of Gander and t have also met with the employee groups that have been formed, and I am still waiting to hear back from those groups.

I met with the employee committee s~veral weeks ago and indicated to them that I wanted to continued to work with them and the council in ensuring that those two principles were maintained in any award to any other company. They have not gotten back to me since that time. I expect to hear from them shortly. So the input that we have had, Mr. Speaker, up until now is to insist with the federal government that the headquarters remain in Gander and that the existing employees be protected in any sale. MR. BAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary-, the hon. member for Gander. MR.

BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As the Premier knows, I informed him on behalf of people of Gander that protection offered should be terms of job loss in the town, the Premier understands that. the have the the in and I would suggest to the Premier Lll73 April 26, 1988 Vol XL that he has failed in the first half of this because the bid documents do not contain protections in terms of a large number of job losses for the town of Gander.

Considering the fact that he has failed in that f lrst part of the process and there is another part that still remains, how is the Premier going to influence the rest of this process then, to ensure that he can keep his promise t.o the people of Gander? MR. SP&AKRR: The han. the Premier. PREMIRR PF.CKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not have any power over this, as the hon . member . knows. It was early on the process · that the hori. member and others in Gander had insisted that we had certain constitutional and legal means that we could use to influence the federal government. That is not so.

I had communicated that to the council of Gander and to the han. member for Gander . I think I set up a meeting for the han. member for Gander . I guess the r.eader of the Opposition (Mr. Wells) also turned up at that meeting, at which our legal people, our officials, explained the situation as . it related to legal and constitutional matters, so I can make no promise to the people of Gander.

What I said to the employees committee town council was and that to I the was prepared, this government was prepared t.o work with them to keep the pressure on CN and the federal government to ensure that as bids come in they would be partisan towards bids which had in them protection for the headquarters being in Gander and protection for all the employees. I will continue to do that, and the No. 23 R1173

government will continue to do that, to try and protect the existing employees and protect the headquarters in Gander. T will continue to do it with whomever I can. MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Premier knows that the process involves a hands-off approach on the part of CN. As I pointed out he has fail~d in the first part of it to convince CN to have suitable protection in the bid documents.

Now, the flnal process involves Canada Capital, a · company that is supposed to, at ann's length, arrange for the sale of Terra Nova Tel, Would the Premier infonn the House as to who owns Canada Capital and whether there is any possibility of input into the Canada Capital board of directors, or ownership, in terms of their choice of the successful bid? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I have not failed in anything.

I asked the employee commit tee group , when I met with them, to get together with the council, to come together as one committee, and then communicate back to the Government of Newfoundland so we could together, as one whole, put pressure on whomever we could to ensure that those two points were satisfied. I have not heard back from the committee. They had indicated they were going to get back to me, but that is weeks and weeks ago. Lll74 April 26, 1988 Vol XL MR. BAKER: It does not exist. PREMIER PECKFORD: It does not exist. Well, it existed at that time because they requested a meeting with me in Gander.

I had a meeting with t.hem in Hotel Gander. I suggested to them a course of action that I thought would be most appropriate, for everybody to pull with the same oar, because if we are going to ~e split up and the council go one way, the employee group go another, and Government of Newfoundland go another, then that would jeopardize the process. If we all went with the one voice then I think we would have a lot more success. That has not been done. The committee has not followed tht·ough on that, as far as I know, in the sense that they have not gotten back to me, which I think is unfortunate.

As far as who owns Capital Canada, or Canada Capital, or whatevet", I do not know \\rho owns Capital Canada. I do not know whether we can have any influence upon them or not, but I am prepared to communicate to whomsoever, to make sure that they understand the Government of Newfoundland's position, and hopefully that will also be the position of the Council of Gander and the employees of Gander. I am prepared to, you know, make representation to whomsoever to try to make sure that these factors are taken into consideration and are a part of any award. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bonavista North. No. 23 R1174

MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Brett).

In view of the tremendously critical and severe financial position in which many municipalities find themselves, making it practically impossible for these municipalities to provide basic public services to their citizens - I refer to water, and/or sewer, and roads - can the minister indicate, particularly since he is new to the Department, whether he has any new plans, new initiatives, new measures which will help municipalities in this fiscal year, or in the near future, to overcome this problem and be able to supply their citizens with these basic public services?

Because if we keep at the present level of funding, $25 millions for water and sewer and roads, it is going to take the people of this province twenty to thirty years to have acceptable standards of these public services. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. BRETT: The first thing, Mr. Speaker, is to advise the han. member that the amount is not $25 million but closer to $70 million a year that we are spending in water and sewer and, either intentionally or otherwise that figure never seems to get mentioned.

But actually it is $25 million in new projects and then in access of $40 million to pay debt charges for the Councils he talks about. There are no -particularly new measures from a financial point of Lll75 April 26 , 1988 Vol XL / view. We have good programmes in place now. I suspect the han. member is talking about some reports that were carried in the press over the weekend.

Perhaps I could mention that being frustrated as we are, everybody on this side of the House, with the fact that it is so costly to .the Province to bring water and sewer services to many of our outlying areas that we have to service, I would like to look at new ways and means for some cheaper means of disposing of sewage and providing water. The average cost of providing water and sewer in other parts of Canada is somewhere between $2,000 and $3,000 per unit. In Newfoundland we spend something like $23,000 per unit.

The han. member is right o;.rhen he says t.ha.t at that cost it would take years and years, so I have been suggesting and playing around with the idea of looking at less expensive systems. For example, in the Province of P. E. I. , the total entire Province is serviced with deep wells and septic tanks, sixty-seven per cent of New Brunswick is serviced in the same manner, and forty-something per cent in Nova Scotia, but only twenty-nine per cent in Newfoundland. So perhaps, Mr.

Speaker, we can do some research in that direction and if it can work in other provinces then there is the possibility that it could work here as well. MR. LUSH: A supp~ementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: No. 23 Rll75

/ I remind the minister that though his department might be spending $75 millions for water and sewer and road projects, that only the $25 million will allow for improvements to existing systems and new systems. Now, Mr. Speaker, in view of this, I wonder is the minister contemplating changing the method of funding, that is, whereby this House of Assembly approves blindly $25 million for capital funding which is then approved by the Cabinet, which over the last few years has not had a good track record in terms of distributing the funds on the basis of fairness and balance? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Not true. MR.

LUSH: Mr. Speaker, it has been pork-barrelling. So I wonder whether or not the minister intends to chang~ that system this year, that system of block funding, so that municipalities of this Province can expect fairness, justice and balance when the minister announces those projects? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, last year it was suggested that recommendations be made to Cabinet from a body that was sort of independent of Cabinet, and that was done. The·re is a Capital Projects Committee in place.

That Committee met periodically over the last four or five months and did, in fact, make recommendations to the department. And it is along these lines that the government will subsequently decide where the Capital Works money will be spent. Lll76 April 26, 1988 Vol XL And I would suggest to the hon. member that after some checking I discovered that we are the only Province in Canada that has that kind of a committee in place. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, I have no hesitation at all, if th~t body was the body that recommended the capital projects last year for municipalities, it should be disbanded immediately. Now, Mr. Speaker, I wonder, again in view of the financial situation, and in view of the great need for water and sewer projects in rural Newfoundland in particular, can the minister indicate what·time he plans to let the councils, and this House particularly know just precisely what communities, what municipalities in the Province wi 11 receive capital funding, and when? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, within . the next two or three weeks. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Answers to Questions for which Notice has been Given No. 23 Rl176

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table an answer in response to a question asked Tuesday, March 15 by my friend the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) . 'How many people work on the minister's staff? How many were appointed by Order-In-Council, their title, their salary, job descriptions, where they advertised, and so on?' I ·do not know if he wants me to read them out loud. I will send lhem over to him, T guess. Do you want me to read them out loud? Okay. I have four people on my staff - two secretaries, a special assistant and a press secretary - all of those listed in (

a) of course were appointed by Order-In-Council because they are Order-In-Council appointments. I might point out that two of the secretaries held permanent positions in the public service prior to their Order-In-Council appointment. Two secretaries are on the pay level 12 salary scale; the special assistant on special assistant 02 salary scale; press secretary .is on special assistant 01 salary scale. Copies of their job descriptions are attached, and no they were not advertised in the same manner as the Leader of the Opposition appoints his staff or whoever. MR.

SPEAKER: Are there any further answers to questions? Ll177 April 26 , 1988 Vol XL / Petitions MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition from 595 citizens of Burgeo. The petition is getting to be familiar. The petition of the undersigned residents of Canada who now avail themselves of their ancient and undoubted right thus to present a grievance common to your petitioners in the certain assurance that your Honorable House will therefore provide a remedy. Humbly Sheweth:

WHEREAS the Burgeo Road has received no upgrading or paving in the pas.t three years; and

WHEREAS the Burgeo Road is the longest continuous gravel road in Newfoundland; and

WHEREAS the towns of Burgeo and Ramea are contributing gC"eatly to the economy of this Province through their primary industry; and

WHEREAS the cost of living and carrying on enterprise in our towns is significantly higher due to the inadequacy of the present road system; THEREFORE: We, the undersigned, petition the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to begin a program immediately to upgrade No. 23 Rl177

and pave the Burg eo Road. We are disgusted with the political games being played and wish only to have our ~~ansportation problems alleviated. This will result in improvements in the economy of our area through increased tourism, more high quality fish products being prepared here and an increase in the service sector. All of which will increase employment levels and generate even more tax dollars. We ask only to be treated fairly and with respect and dignity. Mr.

Speaker, as I said when I started this petition, this getting to be a familiar cry, not only from the people of Burgee, but from people from all over the Province. In particular, in the Burg eo, Ramea, G~ey River and Francois area, this is a familiar cry. Before I go any further in my remarks, I have he~e a copy of a letter which was sent to the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Doyle) by a town councillor from Ramea, Stanley McDonald, and I think it sums up the feelings of the people of that area . I would just like to read it into the records of the House to have i. t: there because I think it is important.

It says: "Dear Sir: "April 13 I drove over what: is supposed to be a road from Burg eo to the Trans Canada Highway. In my opinion it can hardly be called a road and I can assure you that I did not drive over it because I wanted to, but because it was the only way to get from Burgeo to the Trans Canada Highway by car. "I could not help but wonder what it would be like for someone with broken bones or some kind of sickness having to travel this Ll178 Apt:il 26, 1988 Vol XL road by ambulance. torture would they through?

What kind of have to go "Not only is this road causing hardship for the people of Francois, Grey River, Ramea and Burgeo, but the economy of this Province is suffering as well. Some tractor-trailer owners will not send their vehicles on the Burgeo Road for fear of damages. "Other people, like the sea cadets from St. G~orge' s and surrounding areas, who planned to visit Ramea and cancelled because they we~e afraid to travel on the Burgeo Road. "For people in this day and age to be subject to these conditions is not only a disgrace to Newfoundland but to the country to which they belong.

"This letter is not to condemn or point a finger at anybody but only to ask you, along with your government, to do everything possible to upg~ade and pave the Burgeo Highway. This road is equally important to the four communities of Grey River, Francois, Ramea and Burgeo. '' Mr. Speaker, I think that sums it up bet t:er, maybe, than anyone in this House could because that is f~om someone who has to live with those conditions on a day-to-day basis . That is the feeling of the people that live in that area. They are not demanding.

They are asking in an honourable, decent way, to have the p~oblem which they have lived with ave~ thp. last ten years addressed. Their conce~n would be what can be done about it. They have told the ~inister in a face-to-face meeting. It is interesting that, No. 23 Rl178

/ at the same time, I got a letter from the Premier, dated April 18 in response to a telegram which I sent to him on March 29. He says, "I am writing in reply to your telex of March 29 in which you indicate that the Burgee Road is in poor condition. I· would assure you the government is well aware of the problems with the Burgeo Road which are especially pronounced during this time of year. As you have been advised in the past, the only· possible way the Burgeo Road can be completed would be through a cost-shared agreement with the federal government." It goes on about the ongoing negotiations. Mr.

Speaker, that is what I .f tnd to be serious about this. First when I talked to the Premier about the Burgee Road, he talked about:. the commitment he had to Burgeo because he put $13 million into the fish plant, which was paid back, T might add. Now he is talking about the fact that he has got to have a cost-shared agreement between the federal and provincial governments. The only thing that we are asking, Mr.

Speaker - and the people of Burgeo are asking this question - is: Why can the provincial government not take a percentage of the $40 million which is spent on highway upgrading and paving in Newfoundland every year? Why can they not take it and-spend- MR~ SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. MR. GILBERT: In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, again Ll179 April 26, 1988 Vol XL the people of Burgeo, Ramea and Francois are asking for fairness and are asking to have their road paved. MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for st. Barbe. MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to rise in my place today to support my colleague from Burgee Bay d'Espoir. It is significant, Mr. Speaker, that this hon. member, since he became the member for this area, has brought a number of petl tions to this Legislature, in a sense, pleading with the government to recognize some sense of fairness and some sense of reason to establish some dignity for these people down there. The hon. the member for . Bellevue (Mr. Callan) can laugh all ~e likes, but the truth of the matter is that a lot of these people who have to use this particular road are hurting. Mr ..

Speaker, I want to commend my colleague from Burgeo Bay d'Espoir as one of the finest and hardest working members in this Legislature, and a member who is very dedicated to seeing the resolution to a very difficult problem for a great many families in this area. He is to be commended and thanked by everybody in this Legislature. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, when you think about it and you ask yourself whether or not there is any decency or fairness with respect to this No. 23 Rll79

government, you have to put in perspective what the member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoir is asking for. I think he said to put this road in proper shape so that the normal day-to-day commerce can occur without broken trucks and busted axles and flat tires and damaged people wou.ld require some $20 million. Well, Mr. Speaker, that is just one Sprung greenhouse. That is all that is. That is all he is asking for, the equivalent of one Sprung greenhouse . · If you look at the amount of public money put into this by way of direct cash investment, equity - PREMIER PECKFORD: Loan guarantees. MR. FUREY: Loan guarantees.

PREMIER PECKFORD: We do not build roads under - MR. FUREY: Ah! The Premier is alive today. Nice to see the Premier alive and well today. He must have had one of those recipes, maybe cucumber and tomato soup. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FUREY: Mr. Speaker, what we are saying, and perhaps the Premier will respond to this petition and deal with the substance of it, that this part"icular road is the longest, continuous gravel road in Newfoundland; that it has had, Mr.

Speaker, no upgrading, no maintenance, no paving and no public monies put into it in the last three years, which is shameful in itself; that it does have a primary industry down on Lll80 April 26, 1988 Vol XL the South Coast called a fish plant - perhaps they will remember that on that side, fish plant and the quality of fish is directly related to how transport it. If you do not quality fish, Mr.

Speaker, have to blame it on the roads. you have you Anybody who saw public television and saw those most disgraceful scenes on CBC which showed the truck going down and you lose all of the vehicle except the cap everything was out of sight going down in a pothole - Mr. Speaker, it is disgraceful. What does the minister say to our continuous requests by the member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoir? He brings in and tables a list of $15 million worth of projects or twenty-six projects. Mr.

Speaker, let anyone on that side rise in their place today and say that that is not a crystal clear example of pork barrelling, twenty-two of twenty-six projected ended up in Tory districts. Fairness? Dignity? Sensibility? Being honest with the taxpayers' dollars? Of course not, Mr. Speaker. How can we buy another election? Can we roll out the paving machine and buy back other places or ·hold - that is the real statement - some of the seats we currently have? Mr.

Speaker, it is in black and white, twenty-six projects, some $15 million worth of expenditure from the Public Treasury, 22 projects of the 26 in Tory districts, and they have the gall to rise and say they are being fair, being honest and treating people with dignity. The member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) laughed a couple of weeks No. 23 Rl180

ago when people were in the ga Uery who were hurt, physically hurt by travel! ing the road from Bartlett's Harbour, Mr. Speaker, and he laughed because a man had his face punched into a windshield because he went off the road. It is not a laughing matter, Mr. Speaker, last year on that same road when a man broke his neck because he hit a piece of ballast he did not see. That is not a laughing matter when human lives are at stake. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FUREY: Mr.

Speaker, in conclusion, it is incumbent upon this government to accept the prayer of that petition so ably presented by .the member for Burgeo Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) who came to this House honourably and honestly and pleaded the case for so many families who are so desperately seeking help from this government, Mr. Speaker. We ask them to respond with dignity to the prayer for ·those people and their lives. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DOYLE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is the same petition that I have already responded to on a couple of different occasions. So my remarks will be brief. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the Ll181 April 26, 1988 Vol XL han. gentleman a number of weeks ago and to the commit tee that I met in Deer Lake from Burgeo, it is government's intention to have the Burgeo Road completed when the funding becomes available. That is what we have to wait for, Mr. Speaker, for the funding to become available.

As I indicated to the committee also, this government will keep pushing for a greater level of federal involvement in capital funding so that these very large projects, like the Burgee Road, can be·completed. Mr. Speaker, there has to be a level of federal involvement in order for the Department of Transportation to undertake a $32 million project like the Burgeo Road. That is what it will cost, $32 million to complete that road. We are talking about one hundred kilometers of road. Fifty kilometers are already paved. In 1.985-86 un<;ler a OT.RE programme thi.s government, Mr.

Speaker, recommended that the Burgeo Road he included. The hon. gentleman keeps asking why no further \\rork has been undertaken on the Burgeo Road in a three year period? The fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that we have had a no agreement on secondary roads since that time. But when we did have the agreement the Burg eo Road was part of it . And I will repeat, fifty kilometers of road got paved at that time. Also, Mr. Speaker, the Burgeo Road has always been included in the department's listing to the federal government on projects that we would like to have undertaken here in the Province.

As a matter of fact, I am infot'med that even as far back as 1979, the Department of Transportation sent No. 23 Rl181

a list to the federal government totalling approximately $470 million and the Burgeo Road was very high on the pdority list at that time. It is because of the efforts of this government, Mr. Speaker, that a great deal of work has already been undertaken on the Burgeo Road. But again I will repeat, it has to be clearly understood that the Department of Transportation cannot undertake a $32 mlllion project out of the $40 million capital programme that we have. It has to be a cost sharing thing. Mr.

Speaker, again, we will make every effort to secure further funding for a number of pr.ojects that we want to have undertaken around the Proyince, not the least of which is the Burgeo Road. Orders of the Day MR. SIMMS: Motion One, Mr. Budget debate. Speaker, the MR. SPEAKER: Motion one, the debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did adjourn the debate. I talked then r-ather bdefly, I had a few minutes at the end, about the Minister of Fisheries and press secretaries.

L1182 April 26, 1988 Vol XL As I look at the budget and the picture on the cover, I am reminded of what my colleague from Gander said in some of his remarks to the Minister of Finance He said he found the budget to be a little bit deceitful. That was the word he used, maybe even sneaky. When I look at this picture her-e of Sprung greenhouse and all its lights, as my colleague from St. Barbe pointed out, they have already spent $22,500,000 in taxpayers money on that.

I was thinking another $10 million and we could have paved the Burgeo road and the people of Newfoundland would have gotten some return for this money because those people produce products at fish plants in both Burgeo and Ramea. Over a period of three or­ four years they could produce the revenue to pay back the Government of Newfoundland for the investment we would be putting into the Burgeo road right now.

So, when we have a situation where you . see a budget that starts off with a picture of a sink-hole for­ taxpayers' dollars, I am inc lined to agree with my colleague from Gander that there is something sneaky about this budget, especially when you see the $22 million that was spent on Sprung was spent without a feasibility study. We heard that when provincial civil servants looked at the project, they assured members of Cabinet and the government that they should turn it down, it was not a viable operation. Five provinces in Canada turned it down and the federal government.

Yet we have a situation where the Newfoundland government highlights this on the cover of their budget. No. 23 R1182

When I think of this, I think of an

article that was written by the Premier in his book, The Past and the Present: "Industry after industry was attracted to Newfoundland to absorb subsidies and public funds, and ultimately to fail. "It was if as by some magic the normal laws of economics could be reversed and totally inappropriate industry would be able to flourish here." Mr. Speaker, that seems to me to be the story with the Sprung greenhouse, and to the same extent, with the budget that was presented a few days ago and we are debating here in the House now.

We say a decrease in the deficit in this budget and we heard the Minister of Finance - he was quoted in the media - saying that really he did not know what caused it. Revenue . from sales taxes was higher than expected and consumer spending was up, causing a drop in last year's deficit. We know that there was an increase in sales tax, that is for sure. But we have some doubt that the Minister did not know that there was going to be a drop in the deficit because the sale of FPI last year put some revenue into the Newfoundland government, the windfall profits.

Maybe the $7 million that was paid back by the National Sea in Burgeo did something to it. The final way that they decreased the deficit, which they claimed the Auditor-General agreed with, were through adjustments to the sinking fund. When I see the way this budget started off and hear my colleague for Gander (Mr. Baker) express L1183 April 26, 1988 Vol XL fears about it, I am r-eminded of an old expr-ession my mother used to use: "Figures do not 1 ie but liars can figure." I wonder- if that is the case and what is going to be offered next year?

We heard the press say that this budget we just saw was maybe an election budget, so what are we going to be faced with next yea•? This is why, .I think, there is some r-oom for reasonable doubt about the intent of this budget that was put forward. When I look at the announcements that wer-e made in this, we can take Social Services. It was nice to hear and, I am sure, the people who are recipients of social service were glad to know that there is going to be an increase of 4 per cent, but then, I have some doubts about that when I hear the Minister of Social Ser-vices (Mr.

Tobin) stand here in this House and say that now his department is starting to tighten up on the fuhding that was available in Social Services and take actions that should have been taken long ago. So, T wonder if you are going to give it on the one hand and take it back on the other? That is the thing I am worried about in that. Then, the other thing that I am concerned about, Mr. Speaker, is the unemployed single person in Newfoundland who is living at. home. The only reasotl he is unemployed is because this gove•nment has failed, it has not been able to provide him with employment.

Normally he is living in an area where there is high unemployment. We can cite the Bay d' Espoir area of my district, the st. Albans, Milltown area, where 90 per cent of the people there No. 23 Rll83

are on unemployment or looking for work. There are 120 steady jobs in that whole area, from St. Albans to Morrisville. Yet this young man or this young woman goes into Social Services and because his father is living on the lowest form of unemployment that is available, he just comes under the guidelines that are put forward by the Minister of Social Services. This means that this young man or this person cannot qualify for any form of soci~l assistance.

We know, and it was one of the platforms of the Liberal government and one of the things we have said, that this form of social services to the young unemployed in this Province is not good enough and some effort should be made to take care of those people who are unfortunate enough to be put in that position. We are not talking about the people that ·are out to beat the system, as we hear· the minister talk about sometimes, but about the people who have a genuine need for social assistance.

Single, able-bodied people living at home, if their parents are on a subsistence allowance, albeit, unemployment or welfare, they do not qualify. Now, this to me is wrong, and that is another reason why I would say that this budget is a little deceitful. It is not addressing the problems of the people that need the help. The next thing we can talk about, if we wanted to, is education. There has been enough said about the disparity in education in Newfoundland, especially the $300 difference between the urban schools in St. John's and the schools in Burgeo.

To me this is another example of a little bit of sneakiness in this budget. We •have heard a lot of capital Ll184 April 26, 1988 Vol XL projects announced for the various post-secondary educational institutes. The surpr1s1ng thing about that is that most of those capital announcements have been made before. The one for the simulator at the Marine Institute and the survival centre, all those announcements have been made before. AN HON'. MEMBER: Three times . MR. GILBERT: Yes. So, again we take up some space in the budget to do it.

Another thing I was interested in is where the minister, in his budget, talked about 50 new teaching categories that were going to be put in, SO new positions that were going to go in the specialist category. I have a feeling that those teaching positions are not new teaching, positions as was indicated by the Finance Minister. I would say they are possibly replacing teachers who are gone because of a drop in enrollment and because the system has changed. So again I would say, if I was going to take the lead put forward by the l''inance critic, yes, there is something not quite right with this.

Sneaky might be the word. I would say that is another example · that we have. In other words, the problems in education we have pointed out time and time again over the last three years are still there. The disparity is still there. The lack of funds is still there. The child that has to go to school in rural Newfoundland i~ still $300 worse off in the classroom than the child that goes to school in No. 23 Rll84

the urban areas of Newfoundland. I do not think this is a fair and just society, and I think that this government, by putting forward this budget, are not performing. They have shown that they have lost their wi.ll to govern. Transportation: That is an interesting one, Mr. Speaker. We hear every day, when it comes up in the House, when members from this side present petitions from residents · of their districts who feel they are not being treated fairly by this government and that paving and upgrading of roads in this Province are done on a political basis rather than a priot"i ty basis. Mow, this to me, Mr.

Speaker, is a very serious concern. The minister can say, 'No, it is not,' yet, when the Auditot" Genet"al':; repot"t comes in it says there is no policy procedure or guideline for the $40 million that the provincial government annually puts into highway upgrading in Newfoundland. So that to me would guarantee -what we are saying, that there is no policy fat" this and it is a political, pot"k bart"elling pt"ocess that is used for paving roads in Newfoundland. They are using taxpayers dollars to try and achieve political gain.

We do not think that is ?:oing to work and I am sure the people of Newfoundland have had enough of it. We heat" now of secret negotiations. Finally, after the House opened, we asked questions and we find there at"e sect"et negotiations ongoing about the selling of the CN for a lump sum of money, $813 million. Mow, we have maintained - there should be no doubt about it that thet"e should not be any lump sum of Lll85 April 26, 1988 Vol XL money taken in exchange for CM. We should never accept it. The federal govet"nment should maintain the transportation system and should maintain the roads in Newfoundland.

If, for some cheap political reason, they are going to take a lump sum of money, again, we in Newfoundland are going to be the ones who at"e going to have to pay the bill. An example would be CN Marine. When we took over the interprovincial · fert"ies, it was not costing the Newfoundland Government anything, according to them. It was supposed to be a great deal. 1\low, eight years later, it is costing the Newfoundland government $10 million a year. This is $10 million that is coming out of the tax base of Newfoundland and could have gone into something else.

In other wards, the federal govet"nment have snifted the responsibility from themselves to the provincial govet"nment and, thus, to the taxpayer of Newfoundland. That is not very smart on this government's part, but again they have lost their will to govern.

When we come to the Depat"tment of Health, we have seen ex~ples of studies that have been done and all that, but whatever studies have been done, the one thing they cannot get out of - the last study I saw shows little black dots everywhere there is citizens' home on this can assure the mlnistet" are no black dots seniot" citizens' homes Bank to Port aux Basques. a senior Island. I that thet"e signifying f t•om Gt"and The last study by done was commissioned somewhet"e No. 23 on the an outfit mainland. Rll85

Anyway, they came in and did a study in Newfoundland and it showed again. They have Central Newfoundland now divided into a, b, c, d. In c, that is the district that I am talking about, they say there are possibly thirty beds needed. I would assure the minister and those people who came in from Toronto and did that study that if they were to come with me through the district or go with the member for Fortune - Hermitage .(Mr. Simmons) through his district or even the member for LaPoile (Mr. Mitchell) to go through his district, they would find are more than thirty people waiting to get in senior citizens' homes.

They are going to start a new concept down there, T understand, they are going to have social workers who can go and call on a daily basis. It would be some easy to hop in a car some day and go from Milletown to McCallum. It would be a nice drive, if you were living in Toronto and did not know how to get there. But when you are talking about a system that is going to work in Newfoundland, there is a little difference in what they are talking about right now. The other thing in the budget we heard about that was there and it gives me to believe that my colleague for Gander (Mr.

Baker) was right a little bit of sneakiness was in it - there was no talk of the increase in the semi-private rooms that came into the system. I feel that this is the thing that the people of Newfoundland now see and it is happening. We have heard members over there when they get up and talk - as I heard the House Leader (Mr. Simms) say it is a wide and Ll186 April 26, 1988 Vol XL free-ranging debate, this budget debate. They talk about all sorts of things, not much of it relating to t-.he problems that I have just talked about.

We could go municipal affairs, which is another one that we just heard the minister talk about today. There is a group that recommends where this $25 million is spent. As my colleague for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) says, if that group recommended them, fire them. They did not do a very good job. Ask the people of Newfoundland out there, they will tell you. They would tell you to fire them. So I say to him again, it is a project of funding Tory districts and trying to buy votes again, but it is not going to work.

If we were going to get down to talk about some i terns in the budget that I think could be possi lHy done away with, one them is in the current estimates. They are saying there is $4,758,300 for the operation of the minister's off ices. That is their salaries, their tt·ansportat.ion and their entertainment. That is up from $4,168,000 last year. One of the things I did when I had a look at this budget I decided that every year ·we come in and we go through this process of going through the Estimates Committees and we approve budgets.

Two items that I went through and I found was uniform when I went through those estimates for the last three years, as I did it, Mr. Speaker, was that we can budget Transportation, that is the travel that the ministers do, and w~ budget Purchased Services. Purchased Service is covering entertaining and advertising. I have asked the question in all the Estimates Committees so far, and No. 23 Rl186

they tell me that the advertising is minimal, and the amount we spent is actually in entertaining. Then I went and found out that also in this· budget, under Executive Council, there is a thing called the Protocol section. Under the Protocol

section in Purchased Services, that is where 1 discovered, Mr. Speaker, that is where the booze is bought. That is when Peter Lougheed comes down and they have a cocktail party over in the Arts and Culture Centre or wherever, that is where it is paid for. So I said I wonder how that is behaved in the last three years? So I went back and I got it. We budgeted under Protocol in 1985-1986, Purchased Services, $355,000. But when the estimates came in and the actual ~djusted figure at the end of the year, they spent $380,000 that year. That is a lot of entertainment.

Then I went to the next year, in 1986 - 1987, I had a look at it, and I said now, maybe they had something special on that year. So, they only budgeted in the estimate $230,000. But, lo and behold, $384,000 what was actually spent on entertaining that year. They must have a couple of parties over to the Arts and Culture Center that year. Then I said, maybe now things will get better this year. So, for 1987 - 1988, I went and I had a look and they budgeted $250,000. That is what we approved in the budget last year when we sat in the Estimates Committees and went through "that.

Do you know what was spent on booze in that department last year? We spent $465,000 and almost doubled what was approved Lll87 April 26, 1988 Vol XL in the figure seems strange. estimate. The Revised came in that way. This to me to be a little Then I had a look at the Premier, and I said maybe the Premier is setting the example here. So I looked in his office and I went back to 1985 - 1986. I found in that year we estimated that he was going to spend a $100,000 in travel. He was very good, he only spent $76,100 that year. In Purchased Services he estimated he was going to spend $7,500 that year.

He was having a good year. He only spent $4,500. But _ I am telling you now, I had a look at 1986 - 1987. In 1986 -· 1987, we estimated he was going to be cut the cloth to fit the garment, so we went to $80,000. That is what we approved in the estimates in the budget. He ~pent $93,500, and then for his entertainment, besides the protocol account, and all that, he estimated he was going to spend $7,500. He is coming up in the world, I will tell you. He has now spent $9,600 entertaining in 1986 - 1987. I said it seems the Premier must have had a bad year, or a good year, or whatever the case might be.

So, then I asked what happened in 1987 1988. Well, he estimated that he was going to spend $80,000 in travel again, and he spent $98, 000. He is back to where he figured he was going to be in 1985. He finally got back there but he is coming back. He spent $98,000. In other words, he the estimate we passed was again a farce. Now, when we come to purchase services, the entertainment. He said he was going to spend $7,500 and he spent $15,500 last year . . So, the trend has been established No. 23 Rl187

by the Premier. Now there are a couple of more I think we should have a look at. I will not have time to finish them all, bu~ I am going to table this in the House so everybody can have a look at it. Development and Tourism is a good one. In 1985 - 1986, the estimate for running that office for Transportation was going to be $30,000. They spent $78,000 that year, and the estimate for Purchased Services again, entertainment, that is booze I guess, or whatever, was · $3,700. They only spent $24,000 that year. The next year 1986 - 1987, things are starting to perk up fn the Development and Tourism Department.

He estimated that he was only going to spend $60,000. That was double what he estimated the year before.· But, when it came in, the Revised figure came in at $135,000 spent in travel that year. He is coming up, but he had estimated that he was going to spend $3,900 on entertainment. He will laugh at that, he spent $32,000 on that that year. Last year he was going to do the same as he did in 1986 - 1987. So, in 1987 - 1988 he estimated that he· was going to spend, in his department on travel, $60,000, the same as the year before. So I must say he was little more frugal last year. He only spent $119,500 last year.

MR. TULK: That is on travel? MR. GILBERT: That is on travel, yes. Then we passed an estimate that he was going to s~end $3,900 for entertainment again. Last year the Minister of Tourism and L1188 · April 26, 1988 Vol XL Development spent $23,000 on entertainment in his department. The point I am trying to make Mr.

Speaker, is we can be here in this House and we can sit at the Estimates Committees and we can pass the estimates, we can debate it, and then the ministers themselves, the people who are supposed to be leading this government and leading the way, if they are not going to follow the budgets that are passed here in this House, what is the point of this exercise of being here? This · is where the problem is. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. GILBERT: That is where we have the problem.

Just to give another example, seeing as the Minister of Transportation is here - it is an interesting one - in 1985 - 1986 he estimated that he was going to spend $30,000 in transportation and when the Revised one came in, he spent $55,000. Then his Purchased Services, his entertainment, the estimate was $3,700, $5,000. The year 1986 1987 was an interesting year for him. He estimated he was going to spend $40,000 in travel. He spent $120,000. Then in Purchased Services, his entertainment, he estimated $3,900 and spent $10,900.

Then, if you want to go to 1987 - 1988, $60,000 for transportation and he spent $80,000; estimated $3,900 for entertainment and spent $8,000. So this is the situation I am talking about. When we stand here and we t.alk about the problems that are experienced in Newfoundland, I could talk about the unemployment No . 23 Rl188 •

in Burgeo Bay d'Espoir and I could talk about a road in McCallum that is not fit to take a wheelbarrel over. They have got to take buckets of oil up to the school, they cannot wheel it up. Then, when I see the waste that is going on in the ministers' offices, and they are the people who are providing the government and providing the guidance and establishing the guidelines for the people o.f Newfoundland, and I see that five years ago that was a study done on the road in McCallum and $139,000 would have put a decent road in.

Since that time I have reminded the department and the minister every month pretty near saying, 'What are you going to do?' Now it is to the point that the road is washed out. The study is still done, and yet, in this year's budget, all they could put in it was $50,000 for all the roads covered under the local roads districts in.the South Coast of Newfoundland and on the Coast of Labrador.

Yet they could increase the ministers' offices, the twenty-one or twenty-two of them, whatever, for those ministers to operate those offices to $600,000 this year, and they still have the same $50,000 that they have had in the last three years to provide local roads to communities like McCallum, communities that are providing something to the economy of Newfoundland. For the interest of the Speaker, the community of McCallum caught 3 million pounds of fish last year. That was shipped to Hermitage. The fish plant in Hermitage worked for four months, and employed 100 men on the fish that was caught in McCallum.

Yet we find now that the government could increase the Ll189 April 26, 1988 Vol XL spending of the ministers by $600,000 and they could not find anything only $50,000 to cover about fifteen communities in Newfoundland to enable them to have decent roads. Mr. Speaker, we could go on and we could talk about the unemployment in St. Alban's. It is too bad the Minister of Forestry (Mr.

Aylward) is not here because three years ago there were 150 forestry workers employed as part-time workers by the Provine ial Department of Forestry under a Federal - Provincial Agreement that expired three years ago, it was a 90-10 agreement. I heard the then Minister o.f Forestry, our now House Leader, stand up and say · that he gone up and had tea with the new Minister of Forestry and he had a real good deal. It was only going to be now, I think, it is 60-40 now, and· it is a t:"eal good deal. As a result of that real good deal, · Mr.

Speaker, the last figures I heard from the Minister of Forestry show there are fourteen people going to get jobs out of this 150 down in Bay d'Espoir. Fourteen o.f them are going to get a job for four weeks this year. Three years ago, Mr. Speaker, 150 of them were working for fifteen, eighteen or twenty weeks, albeit, it was not good enough, but it was an awful lot better going for welfare, what those people are going to have to do this year.

Yet, we see the ministers and the government over there, increasing the spending in their own departments by $600,000 and yet they cannot find $300,000 of that which would have p"ut 150 men to work in Bay d' Espoir long enough No. 23 · Rll89 ..

to get their unemployment. That is better than what they are doing now. This what I am saying, Mr. Speaker: We have a government that has lost its purpose and its will for being there. Every area of Newfoundland can look at something that can be done with the waste that this government has undertaken. It is waste. It iS not a plan for spending or guidance, it is straight waste. The only thing over there that those members wanted to talk about in the budget debate is the salary that is being paid to the Leader of the Opposition. Hr.

Speaker, there have been no secrets made about the salary that is being paid to the Leader of the Opposition. It is paid by the Liberal Party. we· heard the Minister of Education get up on · Friday and say, 'As long as we know that it is paid by the Party. ' There is no doubt about it. The Leader himself has said it was paid by the party. The President of the Party got up and said, 'Yes, it is paid by the Party,' by the thousands of people in Newfoundland who contdbute to the Liberal Party. They are glad to be able ·to contribute to the Liberal Party, because, Mr.

Speaker, they want to be rid of the yoke that they have carried around for the last seventeen years by those members over there. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. GILBERT: Believe me, it is a unfair burden that has been put on the people of Newfoundland by a government and a bunch of people who does not care. The only thing they are Lll90 April 26, 1988 Vol XL concerned about is filling .their own pockets. If they were concerned about the budget, they would be up debating some of the issues that are here .instead of some of the foolishness they are getting on with. SOHF. HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

GILBERT: word this the I have not heard a sensible come out of anyone over there year when we talk about budget, they are talking about - MR. PATTERSON: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): A point of order, the hon. the member for Placentia. MR. PATTERSON: I would like to take issue with a remark made there. He says that the salary is paid by the federal r.iberals. Norm Whalen who sits on the Board said it is not, and there seems to be coined in ther·e some sort of a tax deal where people are getting a write off for paying the salary of the Leader of the Opposition.

MR • SPF.AKER: There is no point of order. MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Environment and Lands. MR. RUSSELL: Sometimes, I think, hon. members get carried away in the heat of the debate. I think I head the hon. member say that the only concern we had over hear was filling our own pockets, or words No. 23 Rll90

to that effect. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RUSSELL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I would like to make it perfectly clear that this is one minister who is not filling his own pockets. I think that is casting a great insinuation on the members of this side of the House. I think the hon. member should withdraw that comment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. GILBERT: Mr. Speaker, if I offe~ded the hon. member, I will say he is not trying to fill his own pockets. I have no problem with that. I will withdraw it. MR. SPEAKER: Are you speaking to that point of order? MR.

GILBERT: No, I am just saying there is no point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two han. members. The hon. member's time is up. MR . GILBERT: M~. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Is this a new point of order? MR . GILBERT: Yes, a new point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Burgee - Lll91 April 26, 1988 Vol XL Bay d' Espoir. MR.

GILBERT: I would like to say to the hon. member that if he thought that I was c-efec-c-ing to him when I said the only thing they are intec-ested in is filling their pockets, I would cec-tainly withdraw that comment and say that they are not concec-ned about the people of Newfoundland. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I want to have a few words on the budget debate today.

The first thing I want to do, actually, is talk about my district, the district of Bellevue, and how the budget that was pc-esented a month or so ago will help the people in the distdct of Bellevue, who I am so proud to represent here in the House of Assembly, the people who sent we here on four different occasions and who, I ·am sure, will send me here on another occasion, and perhaps another one after that and still others. Mr.

Speaker, I want to briefly run through my district and talk about what I see as a bright future for some of the towns in the distc-ict of Bellevue, and let me start on the end which borders Trinity Bay de Verde, the towns of Dildo and South Dildo. Just over the weekend, actually, I had the privilege to announce a $3,000 grant for the upgrading and repa1r1ng of the slipway in the fishing town of Dildo. As you drive up the Trinity shore, No. 23 Rll91

Mr. Speaker, the Carino plant, a Norwegian plant which has been there for a long number of years - it was closed down for a couple of years because of the downturn in the sealing industry in this Province and the protestors, Greenpeace and all of these people this year found new life, Mr. Speaker, and, for the first time ever, since the Norwegians came and set up the Carino plant in South Dildo, this year they are availing of government assistance as they venture into new fields of endeavor at that seal pelt plant·. It is no longer just a seal pelt plant.

In addition to processing the seal pelts there, which has been carried on, as I said, for about twenty-five years by about twenty-five people from the local area, this year Carino has expanded its operation into the manufacture of fertilizer and also the manufacture of food from seal carcases for other Speaker, which are the Trinity Shore, the fox industry industry. industries, Mr. springing up on and I refer to and the mink I remember, Mr. Speaker, helping to drive the pothead whales into Chapel Ann as a young man, where we would kill them and harvest the meat.

Of course the meat from the pothead whales was processed, again in South Dildo, and used for meal for the mink industry, which was a big industry in the Blaketown/Whitbou~ne/Trinity area, in fact, all down the Trinity Shore, down through Dildo, and so on, a few years back. These sort of things, Mr. Speaker, are coming back and that, I am sure, will auger well for the people who live in that particular

section of my district. Mr. Speaker, dght next door to Lll92 April 26, 1988 Vol XL the Carino seal pelt plant in South Dildo is a new, modern FPI plant. Now, the FPI plant in South Dildo did not fare too well under restt"'ucturing. As a mattet"' of fact, for the past sevet"'al years all that has been happening at that plant is two or tht"'ee weeks - probably five or six at the most fat" sixty or seventy fish plant workers there was the processing of cap lin. Of cout"'se, the caplin scull only last for about two or three weeks in this Province, as everybody is aware, Mr.

Speaker, about ' a month before I crossed the Legislature to join the Progressive Conservative Party and the Government of this Province, I wrote a letter to the President of FPI, Mr. Vic Young, asking him again, as I have done partically every year for the last several years, 'What are the prospects for the FPI plant in South Dildo this year?' And I reminded the President, Mr. Vic Young, that while the Burin plant was undergoing renovations and refurbishing, the secondary processing that used to be done at Burin was transferred to South Dildo. The're was a work force there.

The managers were very impressed with the work force from the local area, and they were also impressed with the new, modern facility at South Dildo. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it was almost the very day that I decided to cross the Legislature and J01n the Progressive Conservative Party that I received a response from Mr. Young, who told me that the future looked very bright for the FPI plant in South Dildo, and he talked about his recent · trip to Japan, where, of course, they went looking for additional markets for the sale of secondary processed fish from this No. 23 R1192

Province. So, Mr. Speaker, I am confident that this year will see a start to a refurbished FPI plant in South Dildo. I can see the processing of caplin going on there in a month or so~ and then I can see, of course, the other processing that goes on . there, herring, mackerel and squid, when the squid come in. But as I said, I can see secondary processing going on there. As I go in through Wi thbourne and Markland, I can stand here in my place today and say, Mr. Speaker, that Whitbourne, the first inland town in all of Newfoundland to be settled - AN HOM. MEMBER: The home of the Premier. MR.

CALLAN: - the home of the Premier, which gives it a distinction in itself - I can say without elaborating that the future is also bright for the to"!fl of Whitbout"ne. As everybody is aware, of course, it is inland, and the railway track runs right through the centre of the town. But if and when an agreement is signed which will see the disintet"gration of the railway, in five Or" ten years, in spite of that I can see the town of Whitbourne surviving and prospering in the future. Markland: Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of farming done in the town of Markland.

A winery is being established at what used to be the old cottage hospital at Markland. That old building is now being used for office space and so on, and it is also being used to start up a winery by some local residents. AN HOM. MEMBER: A what? Ll193 April 26, 1988 Vol XL MR. CALLAN: A winery. It was only yesterday that I was talking to the gentleman, as I was sitting in my office on the fifth floor. Mot many other M.H.As. were in their offices yesterday I am sure, because it was a provincial holiday.

But I was in my office yestet"day, because I am so busy since I crossed the Legislatut"e, returning phone calls and so on. It also gave me a chance to phone Bill Rowe on Open Line to tell him about the vi.srt myself and the Minister of Labour' made to the Come By Chance refinery on Friday af tet"noon, and, of course, the visit myself and the Minister of .Environment and Lands (Mr. Russell), who sits in front of me here, made a month or tht"ee weeks ago, and I also spoke about the clinic. But let me wander' down through the district, Mr. Speaker. AM HOM. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. CALLAN: I got back unscathed. Mt".

Speaker, if I can speak on the r'efinet"y. I am pulling for that refinery,· and I do not believe there is anybody in this Pt"ovince who is not pulling for the successful operation - AN HOM. MEMBER: Is it safe? MR. CALLAN: The member' to asks he if that facility is safe. T cannot answer' that. MR. MITCHELL: He would like to see it closed. No. 23 Rl193

MR. CALLAN: I do not know how safe it is. MR. MITCHELL: He does not want to see any pt"ogress. MR • CALLAN: You know, we have had tht"ee accidents thet"e. We have seen tht"ee accidents at the t"efinet"y and, I dat"esay, we will see other's. Right now the t"efinery is pt"oducing at . 40 pet" cent. As they bring it up to 60 per cent, up to 80 per' cent and up to 100 per' cent, Or" the t"emaining 60 pet" cent, I can see other things happening at the refinery.

I mean, the !about" leaders, and so on, do not come right out and say it, but they sot"t of suggest that the t"eason thet"e are accidents thet"e is because thet"e is no union thet"e. That is not true! As Mr. Ken Bt"own said last Thursday in his address to Rotary Ot" whatever' it was, he is quite pleased and impt"essed with the wot"k fot"ce at the Come By Chance t"efinet"y. Many of the people who wot"k at that refiner'y, Mt". Speaker', now live in Swift Cut"t"ent. That is whet"e they lived twelve years ago, when they went away to Fort McMut"ray when the refinet"y closed. They are ft"om Arnold's Cove, .

Come By Chance, Sunnyside and all over'. They are from North Harbour, Garden Cove, Hillview, and Hatchet Cove. They were the people who worked at the t"efinery twelve years ago and, of cout"se, they at"e back thet"e now. They went to Albet"ta and, of course, they came back, and they at"e skilled wot"kers; they at"e skilled because they kept wot"king in their trade in the oil industry out West.

Of cout"se, there at"e other good, skilled wot"ket"s who did not leave the Province at all, who did not L1194 Apdl 26, 1988 Vol XL - go to Alberta, but who stayed home and still maintained their skills because they wet"e welder's and they wet"e pipefitters, and so on, and they kept their' skills alive. MR. LONG: Do they have (inaudible)? MR • CALLAN: Mt". Speaker', I will not be interrogated by the member' for St. John's East. I do not want to use up all of my time on that particular topic~ As I go down through the t"emaindet" of my distt"ict, Mr.

Speaker, go down through Chapel At"m of cout"se, I have left Whitbout"ne and Dildo and that at"ea now, and I am going down through, as one would ddve tht"ough the district uf Bellevue off the TCH thet"e, thet"e is a pr'oposal in place to set up in Chapel At"ffi a tannet"y which will transfot"ffi fish skins into leather'. That idea is actively being put"sued in Chapel At"m by some local people. I can see that coming to ft"uition as well.

Of cout"se, a lot of people in Chapel Arm, as in Not"man's Cove and Long Cove, whet"e I live, wot"k at ERCO Industries, act"oss the Tt"ans Canada Highway; Albdght & Wilson they call it now. It used "to be ERCO Industries, the phosphot"Us plant. So the unemployment t"ate is not vet"y high anyway in Chapel At"m/Not"man's Cove/Long Cove, because they at"e fishing towns to a degt"ee, especially Norman's Cove and Long Cove. Long Cove, by the way, Mt". Speaker, has pt"obably one of the finest harbour's in Newfoundland, it is manmade.

I take ct"edit fot" wor"king and seeing that the channel was cut through from the ocean to Long Cove Pond, and tha .t, No. 23 Rl194

Mr. Speaker, makes it one of the safest and one of the best harbours in Newfoundland, where I grew up, just across the pond in Long Cove. Quinlan Brothers, Mr. Speaker, are out there now. They are building a big building there in Long Cove.

They see a future for the fishery in Long Cove, even though it is at the bottom of Trinity Bay, and it is difficult for a cod fish or any other kind of fish to get up the bot tom of Trinity Bay, because there are so many gill nets and other kinds of traps as you come up the mouth of the bay, at Perlican and those places, and they swim up to Chapel Arm, Dildo, Norman's Cove, Long Cove, Chance Cove, Bellevue and Thornlea. Mr. Speaker, Quinlan Brothers, who are putting that building there to process fish, see a future in the fishery.

And, of course, the people who are putting the tannery in Chapel Arm also have an interest in the fishery, in that they are transforming fish skins into leather. They have looked at the markets in other parts of the world where these · tanneries exist and the market is there, and with the help . of government, ACOA, and grants or loans from other divisions of government, I am sure that will take off, Mr. Speaker. Thornlea, Chance Cove, and Bellevue, as I said, are another three towns as you drive along the Old Cabot Highway.

These towns are mostly fishing towns, but, again, some people work at the refinery from these towns, and other people work at Albright & Wilson, in Long Harbour, the phosphorus plant. So you have a mix, Mr. Speaker, of fishermen and skilled workers who work in the oil industry at Come By Chance, or Lll95 April 26, 1988 Vol XL the phosphorus industry at Long Harbour. Of course, other people work with Terra Nova Tel , or they work with CN and so on. So there is a mix. Arnold's Cove, as you head down the Trans Canada · Highway and you leave Chance Cove, is one of the finest little towns in this whole Province.

I said this in Arnold's Cove to a bunch of people. When I spoke down there last Fall at a Fireman's Ball,. I told them that Arnold's Cove is one of the finest towns in Newfoundland. This year they are requesting $95,000 from .government for water; they want to do some repairs to the dam which supplies the town of Arnold's Cove. That dam is located across the Trans Canada Highway from Arnold's Cove; as you drive down · the Trans Canada, past Jack's Pond Park and 'so on, you see the dam that feeds Arnold's Cove. AN HON. MEMBER: How much! MR. CALLAN: $95,000.

I cannot say whether they will get lt, but I think they will. I feel pretty confident that they will get their $95,000, sure! It is one of the finest little towns in the Province. National Sea is in Arnold's Cove. Mr. Speaker, the thing abou~ Arnold's Cove is that these Social Services programmes, set up in some towns so that people on social assistance can get some employment, are non-existent in Arnold's Cove. There is nobody in Arnold's Cove on social assistance, and that has been the case for years and years and years. MR. TOBIN: A good member! A good member! No. 23 Rll95

MR. CALLAN: Exactly. Come By Chance I talked about, and I talked about upgrading or trying to get a twenty-four hour clinic at Come By Chance for a couple of reasons. The local people need it, but with an operating refinery at Come By Chance and with the prospects, Mr.

Speaker - down in my new office on the 5th. floor I have behind my chair a picture of a floating concrete platform, which I brought back· from Stavanger or Burgin, wherever it was, when we visited Norway a couple of years ago, and to· see one of these things being constructed, as we saw it in Norway a couple of years ago, is fantastic, two and three thousand jobs just on one concrete platform, and that is go1ng to be happening at Adams Head, in Come By Chance, in the very near future. Of course, it will be the golden triangle we have talked about.

Come By Chance/Argentia will have a work force, at Marystown there will be a work force, and the three work forces will be . producing components that will all come together at Bread and Cheese Islands, there in Placentia Bay, where, of course, there is a great depth of water. That is why the refinery was put there. That is why the $20 million wharf which feeds the refinery was put there. So, Mr. Speaker, for all of these reasons I am convinced that there will be a at Come activity district - MR. TULK: twenty-four hour clinic By Chance.

And the in that area of my You changing to multiple choice questions now, after losing what? Lll96 April 26, 1988 . Vol XL MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, the reason that the Come By Chance clinic will be upgraded to a twenty-four hour clinic is obvious to anybody now. There was no operating refinery there when she closed. Of course, with the downfall and the downturn in the price of oil a couple of years ago, there were no prospects for concrete platforms. But there is an operating refinery there now. Mr.

Sp~aker, do you realize that a couple of weeks ago they were producing $1 mill ion worth of gas in one day at that refinery. Trucks are coming from Deer Lake, buying propane from that facility at Come By Chance - Superior, I think they call it. Butane is also being produced at Come By Chance, but there is no sale fot" butane, so what they are doing with their butane on site is using it to fuel their huge furnaces which, of course, are cracking the crude into different fuels, jet fuel, propane and so on. So, the future is bright for Arnold's Cove.

It has always been bright for Arnold's Cove, especially since National Sea put that new plant there several years ago, and for the whole .area, and that even goes down into Southwest Arm. I have not talked about · pavement and water and sewer projects that I expect to get for my district, Mr. Speaker. It is premature. But I am confident that I will get my share. And not because I crossed the floor. That has nothing to do with it. I got it last year. Hon. members have heard me here in this Legislature talk about the pavement that went to my district last year. I do not expect to get any this year.

To be quite honest, I do not No. 23 Rl196

expect to get any, because what did we get last year? We got $250,000 for road upgrading in Hillview, where there is a twelve mile stretch of dirt road. From the Trans Canada to Hillview down to St. Jones Within, there is not one inch of pavement, but I expect there will be some pavement laid there, Mr. Speaker. I expect so, but I do not know. I am hoping there will be.

Of course, down in Hodge's Cove/Little Heart's Ease, they have been getting two and there miles of pavement, four and five kilometers, in each of· the last four or five years, so, it is only reasonable to assume that there will be another $500,000 or so spent on paving the road through Little .Heart's Ease, and a little bit beyond, perhaps, this Summer. Markland, Mr. Speaker, got a couple of miles of pavement last year. They wi 11 get some upgrading this year. I am sure they will. They are not ready for further paving, so they will probably get some upgrading this year, and that is all they are looking for.

And the people who live in Thornlea, Bellevue and Long Cove, and so on, who use that old Cabot Highway st["etch that I talked about last week or the week before, no doubt there will be some money spent there, as well; there was $250,000 spent there last year to reroute the road around Collier's Bay Hill. Collier's Bay Hill, of course, is where the barite mine opened several years ago. A fair amount of barite came out of that mine, but it was not a really successful venture because there was not as much barite there as was anticipated.

Lll97 April 26, 1988 Vol XL Barite, as every body knows, is used for two purposes: Pharmaceutically barite is used as a dye for testing artery blockages and so on, but this barite, which was brought from Collier's Bay Hill, was used, which is what barite is used for in large amounts, in the drilling of wells offshore, in our case, and it is very, very heavy. I have a piece on my desk, downstairs, and the first Liberal member who comes in will find out how heavy it ls. No. Just joking, actually. ·It is very heavy and . it is used, of course, to cool and lubricate the drill bits. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think I have gone through my district. There are a lot of little things going on in the district of Bellevue that I will not have time to ·get into now, because I want to make some other comments, Mr . Speaker, while I have a moment. I am getting a lot of notes here. I do not know if they are coming from the Speaker. I am afraid to read them before I have finished. Mr. Speaker, I want to make several other comments. I want to refer to some comments made by the newest membe[" of the legislatu.:-e, before he came into the legislature actually. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CALLAN: Before he legislature, Waterford came into the member Kenmount the fo.:- was commenting on me crossing the legislature floor a couple of days before polling day and he said this, the member for Wate["ford - Kenmount, who was a city councillor. 'Mr. Callan,' he No. 23 Rl197 ,.

said, 'claimed the Premier did not approach him or offer him anything to leave the Liberal party and joined the Pes. However,' Mr. Gullage said, 'I would not believe that for a moment. ' Imagine! Imagine! A person who had never met me, did not believe that what I was saying was truthful. Why not? Why did the present member for Waterford - Kenmount more or less call me a liar? In essence, that is what he was doing. 'I would not believe for a moment what the member for Bellevue said.' Mr. Speaker, what I said is absolutely correct and honest. There were no offers, and it had nothing to do with the by-election.

It had nothing to do with it, absolutely nothing to do with it. I arrived at a decision to leave the Liberal party on the morning of March 7, 1988. I could have waited a month. I could have sat as an independent member. They do not ask me now, but when people used to ask me how could I leave the Liberal party and j a in the PC party I would say, 'Well, you are asking twa questions, you know. You have it as one, but there are two questions, separate and distinct.

First, ask me why I had to quit the Liberal party and, after I have taken a couple of hours to explain that to you, because there are that many reasons to go with it, then I will answer your second question about why I joined the PC party. I could have waited a month. I could have sat as an independent, or I could have waited to see what approaches the NDP would have made to get me as a third member with them, or I could have sat there and waited to see what would have been offered from any angle. But, Mr. Speaker, I did it all -in one fell swoop and, Ll198 April 26, 1988 Vol XL of course, I am happy and glad.

The only person I believe I gave an inkling to that I may be leaving the Liberal Party - I did it on Monday morning, and_ I am pretty sure it was on saturday night, after I left the infamous meetings at the Holiday Inn; I got home on Saturday night; I think that was the night. I do not think it was Sunday. I think it was on Saturday night that I phoned my mother and I told her, 'Do not be surprised if you see something in the news.' I did not tell her what I was up to.

And all my mother sa_id, and she did not realize what she said when she said it actually, and neither did I, but she said, 'My san, . whatever makes you happy, then you go and do that. Now, as I said, she did not realize what she was saying and neither did I. I could see the happiness, sure, in getting away from the Leader of the Liberal Party - I could see the happiness in that - but what I did not anticipate, Mr. Speaker, , was the happiness I gained from joining the PC Party, the govet"tllllent. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

CALLAN: As I said, they are two different worlds; the camaraderie, the friendship, everything that exist here. I was saying to my colleague from Trinity North in his office last week, when I met with him to talk about water and sewer funding for my district, I have not yet gotten over this feeling of wondering whether he is trying to trick me. I said, I was so used to it. You always had to be thinking negative thoughts. And how can I trick this person? How can I connive and brown-nose No. 23 Rll98

and everything else? It is only now, Mr. Speaker, after about two months, that I am finally getting away from this. When the Leader of the Opposition spoke in Arnold's Cove, he said that I had failed substantially. Now, Mr. Speaker, if anybody failed substantially, it was the Leader of the Opposition. It was he who failed substantially, failed to understand where people were coming from and why. He failed in a dozen way's, and I do not have time to get into them now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR.

CALLAN: One of th~ pieces of advice given to the Leader of the Opposition was do not seek a seat in the Legislature, do as Frank Moores did in 1971, or whenever it was. Do not come into the Legislature. You already have people there · to look after the Legislature, you travel the Province and make yourself known. But, no, he did not take anybody's advice, Mr.

Speaker, he stuck with his own advice and rather than take a chance on getting defeated in Waterford - Kenmount - we all knew that Gerry Ott~nheimer would be appointed to the Senate in several months and he could have waited around - he said, no and he tried to talk people into resigning their seats so that he could have a safe Liberal district to run in. Now, there is a story in that which I have not told anybody, Mr. Speaker. As I said the other day, there are some interesting stories to be told about that and if I have to tell them, I will. I will tell them one of these days. MR.

WARREN: When you write your memoirs. Lll99 April 26, 1988 Vol XL MR: CALLAN: Actually, what I am doing here now is writing my memoirs, and it is a great way; you get things on tape and printed and so on, and students who read these things in five or ten years hence will learn some things, especially how the Leader of the Opposition failed, Mr. Speaker, in accepting that salary and, to this day, not telling the people in Newfoundland where it is coming from and so on. But he was bought, as the member . for Placentia . said the other day when he quoted Rudyard Kipling, I think, he was bought. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: He do was not bought, unfortunately . I know the Leader of the Opposition very well. He is not an easy man to get to know. I do not know him very well but I would say, if I were to venture a guess, that silently he curses the day that every he .said yes when he was approached by a couple of caucus members and said, • Look, we need you, we need you worse than anything in the world because our big plan failed. The big plan we had failed.

We were told by Brian Tobin in Ottawa, 'You clear the decks for us back in Newfoundland, get rid of Leo Barry and I will come back and lead the Liberal Party to victory'.' Now, that is what happened, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CALLAN: So, of course, when the member for Mount Scio Bell Island (Mr. Barry) decided, . 'Well, I am not going to take this lying ·down, I am not going to roll over and pay dead, I am going to run for it, ' No. 23 Rll99

then, of course, Mr. Tobin came ·to the Province, He was over in Holiday Inn attending meetings that were none of his business, but that is not unusual for him. He commented on me crossing the floor and he was the only federal member who did it. It was none of his business but he sticks his nose in sometimes like that, quite a lot, as a matter of fact. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member's time is up. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. CALLAN: By leave? No leave granted by the Leader of the Opposition. I will continue another day, Mr. Speaker. MR. w. CARTER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Twillingate. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, having listened to the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) I thought maybe I was in an old fashion Southern revival meeting there for a moment. I do want to congratulate the new Minister of Finance (Mr. W.indsor), on his speech. It was well read and I might say well written. In fact, I suppose, the best way I can describe the speech is a good public relations document. I think our critic, the hon. Ll200 April 26, 1988 Vol XL member for Gander (Mr.

Baker), pretty well summed it up when he said, 'The speech was deceptive.' In fact, the cover of the budget speech itself was very deceptive because what it shows here are eight of the components in the Sprung greenhouse complex all lit up and appearing to be rearing to go. We all know, of course, that when the Calgary Winter Games started there was quite a fuss over the fact that the lights in the Sprung greenhouse complex would be turne~ on, I believe, for ten or fifteen minutes in order to get some pictures and Newfoundland's way of celebrating the commencement of the Winter Games.

That was the time when obviously this picture was taken because I do not believe we have seen lights on in all eight of the pods, I believe they call them, since the Winter Games were initiated back in February or March sometime. Mr. Speaker, like I said, the minister's speech was a well written and a well r.ead document. Now, I should point out to him, and to the House, that the people in my district and in most other communities in which I have travelled over the past few weeks are at a loss to understand where all of this new found prosperity is. They have not seen it.

The people in Twillingate district, where today you have, I suppose, record unemployment, I do not know the figure, but based on the calls I get and the people I see when I visit my district, I would venture to say that at this point in time in Twillingate district we probably have unemployment well in excess of 75 per · cent, I would think, or probably even greater than that. I had occasion last year to No. 23 R1200

ci~culate a small questionnai~e in a small community in my dist~ict. I will name the community, M~. Speake~. It was B~idgepo~t. a long established community in Twillingate District on New World Island. In Bridgeport the~e are, I believe, around 200 and some odd voters. I found out in the course of my questionnaire and the returns I got back that ln the past three yea~s. I believe it is, about 15 percent of the ~esidents of B~idgepo~t have left that community, most of whom a~e now settled in ~a~ts of Onta~io and some of cou~se, a~e no doubt settled in the capital city . .

At about the with the same town time I cle~k spoke of Twillingate. Twillingate, of cou~se, is one of the oldest and longest established communi ties on the No~theast Coast. At one time it was called the capital of the No~theast Coast, and I suppose in many respects it still is. In the first four or five months of last year, the town clerk of Twillingate informed me that up to that time, I believe it was July month, · that there were thirty-two families who had moved out of Twillingate fa~ parts unknown. M~.

Speake~, that to me does not indicate the kind of prosperity, o~ good times, o~ reason to be happy that the ministe~ alluded to in his budget. In fact, people in rural Newfoundland today, especially on the I can speak with some knowledge of the No~theast Coast where I t~avel the most, I guess, where my district is located people in those communities have ve~y little reason to be belated or to be happy. In fact, quite the opposite is true. They have every reason not to be happy.

Ll201 April 26, 1988 Vol XL I visited a community last summer, Tizzard's Harbou~, another small fishing community on New World Island and on the wharf that day I met and talked to some people there. There were four young men who we~e talking about the excitement that they were anticipating the next morning. I gathered from their conversation they were doing something rather exci t.ing the next day and I inquired. I was told by these four. big, strapping young men, would do justice to any community in any part of Newfoundland or Canada, that these four young men were leaving the next day.

Two were going to Halifax and two were going to Toronto to work. I have since inquired and I have been told that these four young men remained up there. I am not aware that they have come back. MR. TULK: There are thousands. MR. W. CARTER: No,w these are only four, but there are thousands of cases where young Newfoundlanders, the cream of our youth, the very best that we have, have been forced, compelled, through no fault of their own, to leave t~e Province in search of employment in other parts of Canada. That does not utter too well for the future of th.is Province.

So, the~efore, I go back to what I said a moment a ago, that the people in my district and other places that I visited are at a loss to unde~stand where this new found prosperity is to which the minister referred to in the course of his budget speech. Mr. Speake~, I am going to spend a little time talking about my district before I conclude, but No. 23 R1201

let me f.i e-st of all have a few woc-ds about the fishery. The fishery, of course, is very important to the Twillin .gate Distdct, as it is impoc-tant to the entire Province. I might start of by saying that in this year's budget, Mr. Speaker, in the resource sector in the fisheries we see a total projected expenditure on current and capital account of 1.4 percent in the fishery. That is a resouc-ce an· which I believe · a lot depends in this- Province, the future, social and economic development of ouc­ Province.

But · yet, this government only sees flt to provide 1. 4 percent of its total expenditure on both capital and current account on that very important resource. In fact, in the entire resource sector, taking out Transportation, although I suppose Transportation legitimately is a resource and should be included, but not in the same context as one would look •at Forestry, Fisheries, Mines and Energy and Tourism, for example. So deleting Transportation from the government's total estimated expendituc-e on capital and current account in the resource sector, we are talking slightly in excess of 8 per cent.

In a Province that has so many resources underdeveloped and on which so much depends, in this year, 1988 - 1989, the government will be spending slightly more than 8 per cent on the development of those resources. Mr. Speaker, that, in my view, does not indicate too much interest on the part of the government or too strong a commitment on the part of this government towards the development of our resources. Of course, I L1202 Apr_il 26, 1988 Vol XL get back to what I said· a moment ago, that I think the fact that there is only 1.4 per cent budgeted this year for fishedes speaks for itself. Mr.

Speaker, while I am on the fishery I should make reference to the ministec-'s recently announced restructuring programme, this much talked about, long-awaited restructuring programme that so many of our fishec-men have been waiting for. To use an old cliche, Mr. Speaker, in my view the minister's announcement was too little, too late. Certainly the real problems we have in the fishery were not addressed. I am not under est.imating the importance of wc-iting off interest or, at least crediting up interest to the principal amount and thereby reducing it. I am not downgrading the importance of that exercise.

But, Mr. Speakec-, I submit to you, Sir, that the minister only addressed one vec-y small problem. Of course, in Committee this moc-ning my colleague fc-om Port de Gc-ave and I were questioning the Minister of Fishel"'ies on that c-estructuc-ing programme and, I must confess, the minister said certain things that have caused me some concern. One, of course, has to do with what will be the attitude of the Department of National Revenue on this so-called interest write-off, or, as the minister would prefer to put it, reduction in principal equal to the interest that accumulated over that five-year period.

I was surprised to find out this No. 23 Rl202

morning, and I am sure my colleague from Port de Grave will share my concern; that there has been no formal representation made to the Department of National Revenue as to what, if any effect, this write-off will have on the fishermen concerned. MR. LUSH: Did he say he had that checked out? MR . W. CARTER: No. That is the understanding that I have and that is why I am surprised. I am sure I heard the minister say when he was announcing that programme that that matter had been checked out, because matter. it is a very serious It is a very, very serious matter.

Here you have roughly 3,200 fishermen, and that is the minister's own count, who are now going to have interest on their loans written down or written off, an amount at least equal to the interest over that four-and-a-half, five-year _period, applied to their principal. Now, I am curious to know how the Department of National Revenue will view that exercise in years to come. Now, the minister this morning admitted that there has been no formal representation made to the federal authorities as to what their position will be on that exercise. He said he did contact certain tax experts. Well, I suggest to you, Mr.

Speaker, that these tax experts do not devise federal government policy when it comes to income tax. I have the fear now that at some point in time down the · road a lot of these fishermen who are now the recipients of · this restructuring Ll203 April 26, 1988 Vol XL will be getting notices from the tax man inquiring as to what. has happened to their loans and reminding them that they are going to have to pay up. My colleague and I this morning impressed upon the minister the importance of getting now, before it is to late - and he admit ted, by the way, · it is still not too late some kind of an understanding.

I do not think there is anything wrong with going to the officials at the Department of National Revenue and setting out for them the minister's restructuring programme and getting from those officials some idea, hopefully in writing, as to how that will be viewed by the National Revenue Department in years to come. I would suggest to the minister that ju~t talking to a few tax experts is not good enough and it might very well come back to haunt, in a very real way, a lot of the fishermen who will be benefitting from that interest write-off. Mr.

Speaker, I say again that the real problems that are facing at least 75 per cent of today' s inshore fishermen were not addressed by the minister's rest1~cturing programme. I am talking about the 75 per cent of our inshore fishermen who use boats of twenty-five feet and under. That is roughly the percentage . Statistics will tell us that, I believe, 73 . 5 per cent of all Newfoundland inshore fishermen today use boats of less than twenty-five feet in length.

Now, the ones that I have talked to, and I have talked to quite a few in recent weeks, indicate to me that that t:"estructuring programme will have little Ot:" no affect whatever on them. No. 23 Rl203

Mr. Speaker, what the minister should have done, the problem that the minister should have addressed, the one that would have been very beneficial for that 75 per cent that I am talking about and, to a large extent, to all inshore fishermen, would be the establishment of a working capital fund, a fund that would provide working capital for the fishermen when they need it. Today in Newfoundland what you have is a large number of inshore fishermen who every Spring have to replenish their gear or have to repair their boats, buy new engines, maybe. or repair existing engines.

There are 101 things that a fisherman must do in the Spring of the year to get ready for the fishing season. What happens now? Most of them do not have the necessary money in reserve to underwrite the cost of these improvements. That is a fact of life. We might as well accept it. -Another fact of l~fe, Mr. Speaker, is that bank managers today are not too accommodating. In fact, they are not accommodating at all when it comes to providing working capital for small, independent inshore fishermen. Most of our bank managers appear to have adopted the 'big is beautiful' philosophy.

If you go in with a foreign accent, maybe, and a beard and some kind of a highfalutin' scheme, they will talk to you. But when it comes to an ordinary fisherman going in without profit and loss statements or proper projections of profit and loss and so on, then I flnd that these bank managers are not at all ac~ommodating. Therefore, fishei:"IIIen Mr. Speaker, the concerned have another Ll204 April 26, 1988 Vol XL option.

Usually what happens, of course, is that . that person will go to the village merchant or to the owner of the village fish plant and he will strike a deal with that person to get the necessary money to enable him to start fishing again when the season starts. Now, what does the fisherman do when he goes to the merchant or the fish plant owner?

More than likely he has got to give . that person an understanding that, first of all, he will buy his gear from that merchant wno supplies the interim working capital, or, if it is a fish plant, he has got to give an undertaking that he will sell his fish or the results of his work to that plant. By the way, I do not want to appear ungrateful. A lot of these small merchants and fish plant owners are providing a very worthwhile service, and I give them credit for it and I commend them for it. At least they are willing to do that which the chartered banks, who are in that business, refuse to do.

I give them full marks. I have a fish plant owner in my district, Beothuk Fisheries, that is a credit to the Northeast Coast. But, Mr. Speaker, it .is the principle that is entirely wrong. When a fishermen literally identures himself to that merchant or that fish plant, the opportunity is there where that fi-sherman can be taken advantage of, if the fish plant owner or the merchant so wishes.

By ra1s1ng his necessary working capital that way, of course, he forfeits his independence when it comes to purchasing the gear he needs, and what is even more important, he forfeits his independence when il comes to selling his product. I-To. 23 Rl204

That is not a very healthy situation to be in. I think that the minister could have performed a very great service, I believe, had he set out some kind of a revolving fund. Now, I do not know how much it would have taken, maybe $5 million, maybe $2 million, maybe $10 million, but I think it could have been a fixed amount, it could have been a revolving fund where fishermen could go there at the beginning of the year, borrow their required working capital of : $2,000, $1,500, $3,000, $5,000 and charge them an interest rate.

I do not think fishermen expect something for nothing, charge them maybe a pt"ime rate, plus one or something, and wot"k out an arrangement where that loan will be repaid during the current fishing season. Then next year, of course, if the fishermen is in good standing and all things being equal , they can . go back to that fund.and start all over again. Now, that in my view, would have been a vet"y wot"thwhile exercise for the minister to under take, but he missed the boat, Mr. Speaker.

He was too interested in the short term glory of being able to announce that $18 million would be written off and that it would be to the benefit of the fishermen . Now, there, too, Mr. Speaker, is a deception, because $18 million did not go into the pockets of our fishermen. By the minister's own admission he stated, $8 million of that $18 million were used to write off bad debts, uncollectable debts. Now, there is nothing unusual about banks and in.stitutions, all kinds of financial or lending L1205 Apdl 26, 1988 Vol XL institutions have occasion in some point in time to write off bad debts.

In fact, I suppose, most businesses do the same thing. So, the fact that the Loan Board had accumulated bad debts of approximately $8 million is not that unusual, undesirable, yes, but not really unusual. So the fact that $8 million were spent by the ministet" to write off those bad debts, then again, is of no consequence so far as today's fishermen are concerned because most of those debts were accumulated by the people who have since left the fishery.

I suspect in many cases, they have gone to their great reward and these, by the minister• s own admission, were uncollectable debts, and I should add, have been the subject now of considerable concern on the part of the Auditor-Genet"al over the years. I think the Auditor-General has been suggesting that these debts be written off. Well, that is $8 miliion. Then the ~10 million, of course, is being used by the minister's department to write off interest on loans that are five and a half year's old on which there has been one payment made. Mr.

Speaker, I do not think I want to be in the minister's shoes to have to try to administer that programme. I can tell him now, that as well intentioned as he is, I have no hesitation in saying that I think the minister pt"obably meant well, but the fact remains that it is going to cause one heck of a lot of problems and bad feeling. ~ve have heard it already. I recall the day that the minister made his announcement driving back from my district in Twillingate. I turned on Fishermen's Broadcast and I No. 23 R1205

believe there were ten people who phoned in in a phone-in type programme, and I believe nine of them had a negative attitude toward the programme. So, it is going to be a difficult one to administer and it is going to be a difficult one to explain. Mr. Speaker, while we are on the subject of the fishery, this is a timely topic. In recent days Newfoundlanders have again been treated to the headlines in the papers and television . stories about this new group that has entered now midst. What do they call themselves? The international Wildlife Federation, this is a very radical group.

The minister described them as being the lunatic fringe. These people, from all accounts, would make Greenpeace look like a bunch of Sunday School teachers. Apparently this new coalition or federation or whatever they call themselves, to quote the minister- !is a lunatic fringe . ~ It is a very, very lunatic type of approach they have to what they are trying to do. We saw them on television last week. I am not a person who gets worked up too easy. It takes a while to bring my blood pressure up and to arouse me in that respect.

But I must say, when I saw that gentleman being interviewed on television Friday night by CBC, and some of the comments he made, it did not set too well. I think the gentleman brazenly as you want to have it, blatantly sitting in a Province where you have such unemployment and where the seal fishery at this point in time means so much to so many people. He said, 'I do not care what it does to those people. I could not care less that it might take bread Ll206 April 26, .1988 Vol XL and better off their tables. ' He said, 'that is not my concern.

My concern is for the welfare of the animal and to collect money for the people who are supporting or are involved in our federation.' That is what he said. Let us not forget one thing, that that gentleman visited this Province on a permit that was issued by the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Siddon). I am aware of the outcome of the appeal in the high court. I am aware of the fact that our recent stand of prohibiting protestors from going to the ice, at least in the court's view, contravenes the Charter of Rights.

I find it difficult to understand their reasoning, but it is not for me, I suppose, to question. Certainly, in light of that court ruling, it is obvious the Minister of Fisheries in Ottawa has no choice but to issue permits to those types who want to come in here and disrupt our way of life. As distasteful as it is, I suppose that is the reality of it. The fact remains that in order for these people to function and to be able to go to the ice, one of the conditions requires that there be a fishery officer accompany them.

Well, I am sure if the Minister of Fisheries wanted to he could make it difficult to spring loose a fishery officer that would - MR. TULK: (Inaudible) salmon river . MR. J. CARTER: That is right, if they have fishery officers to spare, as my colleague for Fogo (Mr . Tulk) says, there are better places to employ · them than babysitting a group of scoundrels who come in here to deprive Newfoundlanders of No. 23 R1206

their bread and butter. I have no sympathy of them. I