Manitoba Hansard — 11 February 1960 (Sitting 18, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-18

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

.·.'··: ·: Legislative Assembly Of · M:a'n l.tob'a · DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Volume IV No. 18 February ll, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by ·R. S. Evans. ·Queen's ·Printer for the Province of Manitoba� Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Thursday, February 11, 1960, 2:30 P.M. tntroduction of Bills: Nos. 77, 78 •.......••. ..•... ; • • • . • • • . • . . . . . • • . . • • • • . • • • • • • • • 429 Committee of Supp ly: Civil Service Commission . . . • • . • . . • • • . • • • . • • . . • . • • . . • • • . • • • . .. 430 Civil Service Commission . . . • . . . . . . • . • • . . . . • • . . • . • . • • • • • • . . . • . • • • • . • . • . . • 434 Civil Service Group Life Insurance . . . . • . • • • . . • . . • • . • . . . . . . . . . • . • . . . . . . • • . . 436 Purchasing Bureau . . . . . • • • . • . . • . • . . . • . . • . • . . • • • . • . • • . . • . • . • • • • • . • • . • • . . 437 Department of Education: Administration. . . • . . . .. . . . • • . . . • . . . • • . . . . . . . . . • . • • . • • . . . • 441 The Progressive Index of Votes and Proceedings will be . published on Tuesdays on the last page.

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Thursday, February 11th, 1960 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions Reading and Receiving Petitions Presenting Reports by Standing and Select Committees Notice of Motion Introduction of Bills HON. GEO. JOHNSON (Minister of Health & Public Welfare) (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 77,

An Act to amend The Hospital Services Insurance Act. HON. C. H. WITNEY (Minister of Jlllines & Natural Resources) (Flin Flon) introduced Bill No. 78,

An Act to amend The Mineral Taxation Act and The Statute Law Amendment Act 1959. MR . J. A. CHRISTIANSON (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, I would beg the indul gence of the House to allow this matter to stand over. MR . SPEAKER: Order stand. Orders of the Day. MR . M. A .. GRAY (Inkster): Before the Orders of the Day, and on a point of privilege, I would like to make a very brief statement to this House. The Jewish people of Manitoba and the world over are now celebrating the 75th birthday of the President of the State of Israel.

I feel it is my duty to mention it to this House and to congratulate a man who, over half a century, has pioneered a movement for the realization of the prayers and hopes of the Jewish people for centuries, and for the establishment of the free and democratic State of Israel, the most democratic and free country in the near East. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): I'm sure that we would all wish to join with my honourable friend in his expression of good will to the President of the State of Israel on this auspicious anniversary and I am very happy to express that sentiment to him now. M.

EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carillon): Monsieur l'orateur, avant les ordres du jour je desire souhaiter la bienvenue aux eleves de l'ecole superieure de Notre Dame de Lourdes. Elles sont ici avec quatre de leurs professeurs compris de l'ordre des Chanoinesses des Cinq Plaies.

Je desire leur dire monsieur l 'orateur en francais que lorsque le Manitoba joignit la confederation du Canada en 1870 la langue francaise etait officielle autant comme langue parlee que langue ecrite mais qu'en 1890 une loi fut passee dans cette chambre banniss ant l'usage due francais comme langue ecrite mais conservant les privileges du francais comme langue parlee. Je puis done aujourd'hui m'exprimer librement en francais pour souhaiter aux professeurs et aux eleves de l'ecole de Notre Dame de Lourdes la plus cordiale bienvenue dans cette chambre. Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I wish to welcome the students of N otre Dame de Lourdes High School. They are here with four of their teachers from the Order of the "Chanoinesses des Cinq Plaies". I wish to tell them in French, Mr. Speaker, that when Manitoba joined Confederation in 1870 the French tongue was official, both spoken and written, but in 1890 a law was passed in this House prohibiting the use of French as a written tongue but preserving the privileges of French as a spoken tongue.

Today I can therefore speak freely in French to wish the teachers and students of Notre Dame de Lourdes school a most hearty welcome to this House. MR . ROBLIN: Monsieur l'orateur j'exprime aussi la bienvenue du gouvernement a nos jeunes visiteurs de Notre Dame de Lourdes cette apres midi. Mr. Speaker; I also wish to welcome, on behalf of the government, our young visitors from Notre Dame de Lourdes this afternoon. MR . E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead): Monsieur l'orateur ............ pour ce partt je voudrais offrir des felicitations aux eleves et aux professeurs de Notre Dame de Lourdes. Mr.

Speaker ....... •. .. for this Party I want to offer congratulations to the students and teachers from Notre Dame de Lourdes. MR . A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that Manitoba can expect some real competi tion in the Canadian curling finals to be held in Fort William next month because a former February 11th, 1960 Page 429

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) .... West Kildonan High School student, John David Lyon, has earned the right to represent Newfoundland in the Canadian finals. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. GRAY : Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I wish to correct the state ment that appeared in the Tribune last night in connection with a discussion of the indemnities. The Tribune reported that M. A. Gray supported the amendment- the indemnity. I just want to correct it - - 56 other members did the same thing. MR . SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Education, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a corn mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR . SPEAKER: Would the Honourable Member for st. Matthews please take the Chair. MR. R. PAULLEY (Leader of the CCF) (Radisson): Mr.

Chairman, if I may just before the committee starts its session this afternoon say a word as a result of yesterday's happenings. I didn't raise it as a point of privilege when Mr. Speaker was in the Chair. I didn't have Hansard and I thought it would be proper to just briefly mention it while we were back in committee. It is alleged in this morning's paper that the Leader of the CCF Party left in a fit of temper yesterday evening at 5:30, and I believe the words are ascribed to my friend the Leader of the House, the Premier of the Province.

I want to assure him and all members of this House and the public generally that the Leader of the CCF Party did not leave the House yesterday in a fit of temper but only trying to establish what are his rights and the rights of his party in the committee and in this Legislature. MR.

ROBLIN: I haven't Hansard in front of me and I really don't think I was quite as harsh on my honourable frie.nd as that, but, regardless of the particular situation in question, one understands very well from experience that things happen that sometimes are the result of pressure of a hard afternoon's work, and I for one ·certainly accept my honourable friend's statement ·in the matter and if in any way I've been guilty of provoking him I hope that he will not assume that it was done with any malice. · MR . PAULLEY: I assure my honourable friend that there's no malice between the two of us.

As a matter of fact, in a jocular vein, in the corridors of the building this morning a number of individuals asked me how the dickens are you going to get ba.ck in after what you did yesterday? And I suggested that possibly I'd better give a call to my honourable friend and ask his forgiveness for walking out. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're off to a happy start. MR . G. MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Chairman, as I recall it when we had our little conversation last night with the Honourable Leader of the CCF Party and the First Minister, I was asking questions on the matter of the civil servants• personal use of government cars and I was hopeful that we would have Hansard today so that I could check.back on what had been said earlier in the discussion yesterday, but I notice that yesterday's Himsard isn't in yet so I cannot do that, so I will have to retain that for later. However, I would like to ask some further questions of the First Minister in this regard in the absence of the Provincial Secretary.

Could he tell us what is the actual estimate that this will bring in in.the course of a year? Now the newspa!.Jer reports at the time that this was changed were that $50,000 would come in under this and that $8,000 was the figure that came in under the previous arrangement. Now could he tell us whether those figures are right or wrong? MR. ROBLIN: I think the estimate would be at least $50,000. It's a very hard thing to be sure about because we don't know who's going to accept the· arrangement or who wish to give us a statement that they're not using the car, but it will be at least that much we estimate.

The other figure is also I believe, approximately correct. MR. MOLGAT: Now it would seem to me, Mr. Chairman, .that yesterday in his se.cond statement the First Minister told us that this was the better method. Now in his first statement he told us that he didn't think the government was getting everything that they should Page 430 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd) ...... have got from the civil servants. At least that was my understand- ing. Now when he says that this is a better method I have grave doubts that that's the case because I think that the-present system does not take into account at all the amount of use of the car. It's a flat charge and regardless of whether the car is used a little or a great deal it makes no difference. The government doesn't get any further amount. Now I'm not one to suggest that the civil servants should not be allowed to use government cars for personal use.

I think it's the same in the civil service as in any business. If the business, or in this case the government, is supplying a car I think it's unfair to expect that the civil servant would have a second car strictly for personal use. You would be putting him to a great deal of expense for that purpose alone and I don't think that would be fair, so I think we simply have to accept the fact that civil servants will be using their cars for personal use. It's the only fair thing.

Now the next thing is then whatever they do on personal use, again the arrangement mttst be fair to the government and to the civil servants. Now the previous arrangement, where it was so much a mile for whatever they used on private use, would seem to me the fairest arrangement because those civil servants who use their car a considerable amount on private personal use paid for that use; those who didn't were in the same position. We must remember there are civil servants scattered throughout the province.

There are a great number here in the City of Winnipeg who may not have occasion to drive as much for personal use as others, say, out in country points. The present arrangement discriminates completely against those. It says flat $20 whether you use it or whether you don't. It seems to me that the system as now set out far from being an advantage to the government is going to be a disadvantage, be cause it seems to me that it would be a reasonable reaction for a civil servant to say, well if it's going to cost me $20 in any case for the use of the car I may as well use it to good extent. And why shouldn't he?

He has lib incentive whatever to keep his personal mileage down to any particular limit. He's being charged a flat amount. I think it's not a good procedure and I can't see any reason why this was changed, but I would like to have the views of the First Minister on the subject. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, we're going to try it and see. We think that this represents a reasonable arrangement. It was dis.cussed with the Civil Servants Association before it was put into force and they agreed with us that it was a reasonable arrangement.

We'll try it and see, and if the fears of my honourable friend prove we've faulted we can always change it, but I think we should give this a trial and see how we get along. MR. E. GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr. Chairman, for this $20 the civil servants I understand, get all the gas they want provided they use it within certain miles, is that correct? MR . ROBLIN: ........... to that matter there is no change from the previous system. MR . CHAIRMAN: 4 (

a) MR: ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, before you leave the matter of the Civil Service Commission I think there is one point that perhaps has become a little confused in the course of our discussions, because in reading the newspaper reports of the debates I find that there is a point that I'm duty bound to clarify, and that is in connection with the increase in the civil service.

The report that one reads in the paper, and I can only assume that this repres ents their impression of what was said in the House so I'm not making any complaint about that, but the report reads that ''there has been a 19% leap in civil servants --755 added to Manitoba payroll in 25 months", and then it says, ''there has been a 19% increase in the Man itoba Civil Service since the last year of the Liberal administration, it was shown in returns tabled in the Legislature Tuesday." And then in another story this morning it says, referring to the discussion yesterday, "Liberal members based their attack on the 19% increase in the civil service which has occurred since the Roblin Government came to power.

They call the increase alarming." Well, I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, that experienced members opposite, par ticularly the Honourable Member for Carillon who is familiar with these things having been Provincial Secretary, that he would never make that statement. He would never make that statement and he shakes his head--I'm glad to see he's in agreement with me because that is not the correct analysis of the case. The information and I suppose much of the discussion yesterday was based on the return that was given in the House. And what did the return ask for? The return asked for the February 11th, 1960 Page 431

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd): .. •. number of civil servants on the payroll of the government on November 30th, 1957, and that was given at 4, 003; and it also asked for the number of civil servants that was on the payroll on December 31st, 1959, and ihat is given at 4, 758, being an increase of 755. No quarrel with that, but I think it should be pointed out that the present administration did not come into power on November 30th� 1957.

It came into power some seven months later, and in that intervening time of seven months there were certain changes in the strength of the civil service which were not brought out in the return because naturally that question was not asked, but I feel that I should make it clear that there were increases in the civil service between the time of the return, November 30th, 1957, and the time the present administration came into office.

And the number of civil servants employed in that period or following out from policies put into effect by my predecessors, we will find that the number of civil servants is actually 348. In other words, out of the 755 civil servants, the 755 increase since November 30th, 1957, we must point out that 348 of those flowed from the results of my honourable friends' opposite policies and from their activities during that remainder of their term of office .. I would like to just state how that number of 348 is arrived at so that there can be a clear understanding of the matter.

I'm only going to deal with two categories. There may have been others that would bo.ost this total but I'm not going to bother with them because I don't think they affect the general argument. The Manitoba Hospital Ser vice Association was brought in during that period, and included in the 755, and I believe properly ascribable to the former administration, is the number of 265 people who were brought in in order to put in the policy of the Manitoba Hospital Service Plan. That was a policy that our predecessors established and these people were required to operate it.

Also during that seven month period they made changes in the work week reducing it to 42 hours which called for the employment of another 83 people, so that gives us a total of 348 people out of our 755 that are, in fact, people who were employed by reason of the activities of the previous administration.

Now that leaves a number of 407 to be accounted for by the present government, and of that 407, 77 were employed because the 40-hour week was introduced, so it leaves again the sum of 330 new employees who were brought in during that period in order to give effect to the policies which this administration is responsible for. So while it is perfectly correct to say that there has been an increase of 19% in the period mentioned and that the number is 755, it is not, I think, correct to assume that the full responsibility for those should be as cribed to the present administration.

The figures that I have given indicated that 348 at least, and there may be one or two more but let's not worry about them, could in fairness be 11-scribed to the activities of the previous government, while 407 could be ascribed to the activities of the present administration. And of that 407, 77 to take care of the 40-hour week and 330 to take care of the new policies that have been introduced. So I think that in order to keep the record straight and to make it perfectly clear what has happened we should make that statement.

I would also like to point out that the 348 refer to seven months of the adminis tration of the previous government

whereas the 407 refer to the 18 months of responsibility that the present administration has enjoyed. So I want to make those facts clear, Mr.Speaker, so that the public and those who are interested in this matter may be able to form a fair assess ment of the facts of the situation. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I can go along with the First Minister but only to a certain.point.

I believe that in my speech yesterday I stated tli.at I did not think that there was a 19% increase, but I do not go along with the First Minister when he says that there is a number of some 300 ·and some odd attributable to our administration. I have analyzed these figures and I find 117 that might be allowable to our administration previous to July 1st, 1959. and I think the story that first appeared in the Free Press -I didn't see this morning's story, I haven't had a chance to read today's papers, but the first story that appeared some two or three days ago was a correct one.

Now we have more confusion being brought about now by , the statement of the First Minister to the effect that to institute the 40-hour week it required 0 77 persons. Now this conflicts directly with a statement made yesterday by the Honourable the Provincial Secretary when he told us that it took some 160-odd persons to bring about the 40-hour week. That was a statement made yesterday, so I'm more confused than ever, Mr. Speaker. I would say that figures are confusing. we· can make figures prove anything we want Page 432 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd) •••.. but I believe that the first story in the Free Press was sub stantially correct as far as I'm concerned. MR. ROBLIN: Mr. Speaker, I can explain to my honourable friend the figure of 160 because that includes 83 which were brought in under the previous administration to introduce the 42-hour week and 77 that were brought in under the present administration to introduce the 40-hour week, so that gives a total of 160. But I want to go back to my point that I think the facts I've given the House are correct.

And I'm quite happy if when we get the Public Accounts Committee, if any honourable member would like to get the Civil Service Commiss ion to verify these figures and explain just how they're arrived at, well that would certainly be quite in order. But I think you will find that some 265 of the total increase of 755 are accountable by reason of the Hospital Service Plan and that 83 are accountable by reason of the 42-hour week, both of which policies I think I can fairly say, were the responsibility of the honourable gentlemen opposite.

Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not complaining about that because we agreed, we agreed to the Hospital Service Plan and we agreed to the 42-hour week, and I'm not complaining about that. I'm merely trying to be as accurate as I can in describing the circumstances which led to this increase of the 755 new civil servants. We take the full responsibility for the balance because they were brought in on account of policies which we recommended to the House and which the House saw fit to adopt. So I trust I'm giv ing this committee accurate information.

To the best of my knowledge and ability I am, and if you want to cross-examine anyone in the Civil Service Commission further then it's open to do so. MR. PREFONTAINE: I'm still quite confused when I think of the figure mentioned of some 340-odd new persons since this government took over. We have the report tabled two· days ago telling us that there were 485 new positions created in 1959 alone. Now possibly those are not all filled but certainly the vast majority of them must be filled. So if there is something approximately 485 in '59 alone -- 485 -- certainly in 18 months -- it certainly must be more than 348.

MR. ROBLIN: Of course, as was explained to my honourable friend yesterday, a number of those changes are on account of provisional positions being made permanent. That's why we get into such a hassle about these figures in trying to reconcile all the different categories of people that are given to us. But I think that you will find on examination that that situation is correct.

Now I won't disagree with my honourable friend if he says there are a number of established positions which are not filled, and which of course are not included in a tabulation of those people that are hired, and there may be more later on when those establishments are filled. I'm sure there will be, but my honourable friend will also, I thin.]{, be able to confirm from his experience that that is a customary thing in running an adminis t:ration, that you do have a number of positions not established that are not filled.

But the figures can all be reconciled and I think the figures that I have given dealing with this increase of 755, which is the point that I was concerned to clarify, will be found correct on examination. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I'm very pleased to know that we will have a chance in Public Accounts Committee to go further into this problem. For the time being I think that the House will agree that both the Prime Minister and myself have won our points. MR. M. N. HRYHORCZUK, Q.C. (Ethelbert Plains): Mr.

Chairman, not in the way of criticism at all but just to keep the record straight, the figures given by the Honourable the First Minister do not include the positions to be established under the estimates that are before the House now. The way I read the estimates there are provisions there for additional positions if the government should want to implement them; that is, the figures given by the Honourable the First Minister do not cover any of the positions that may be created under the estimates before the House today. MR. ROBLIN:. That's perfectly correct.

The figures that we have been dealing with through this discussion have been the actual number of people who are drawing pay, and that is substantially less than the establishment of the administration, and one finds that all the way through, I remember when I was on the other side, looking into the Department of Public Works for example, and finding that while they had an establishment of about 170 engineers there were less than a hundred on strength, and we wanted to know at that time why they weren't filled in that particular case.

But it is true that you get that situation so I agree with February 11th, 1960 Page 433

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd) ...... my honourable friend that the figures that I have been discussing this afternoon are those of people who are actually employed, and that figure differs again from the establishment. That is perfectly correct. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, just an additional question. Could the Honour able the First Minister give us any idea as to the number of positions that are. open at the present moment? MR . ROBLIN: Well I haven't that figure at my fingertips but there are a good number -- I would say several hundred. MR . CHAIRMAN: (a)-passed, (b)-passed, (c)-passed.

Resolution 18, Civil Service Commission ... MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, in (c) -- in regard to Workmen's Compensation, the government is a self-insurer is it not, within the Workmen's Compensation Act? MR . ROBLIN: We are self-insurers to the tune of around $35,000 under this heading. MR . PAULLEY: A couple of years ago it was $45,000. The $35,000 then would � reflect a more favourable accident ratio, is that correct? MR . ROBLIN: Yes, that's a very happy circumstance, that we don't have the accidents ..... MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)-passed. Resolution 18, Civil Service Commission, $113,725 -- passed.

Item 5, Resolution 19, Civil Service Superannuation Act, $895,000. MR . HRYHORCZUK: One moment ,lVIr. Chairman, have there been any increase in the rates under this item or is that just the additional staff that makes the increase? MR . ROBLIN: This thing is tied in to the salaries. Now it's an interesting point because it indicates something which members are aware, and that is of the escalator effect we have in these various things. I know the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition will be the first to point this out, but seeing he isn't here today perhaps I could undertake to do it myself.

In the return that was filed the other day, and to which the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains has already made reference, you will notice that the salaries of the civil service have increased by $2,450,000 in the period since November 30th, 1958-1957. That's a lot of money, but I don't think the House should draw the conclusion that the main reason for that is because we have more civil servants.

Undoubtedly it is an important reason but I would like to point out that since that particular figure was set, in 1957, there has been no less than six implemental increases to the civil service we already have -n o less than six. And as I indicated to the House previously, the cost of an increment this year is well over $600, 000 all things considered, and so one can see that six times -- let's say half a million or some figure in that neighborhood, indicates the increase in the salary bill due to the policy of annual increments, to say nothing whatsoever of whatever extra staff that we would employ.

And in addition to that, last year, as the House knows and as the House voted, we raised the whole basis on which the civil service salaries are being paid by an appropriation of some $900, 000-odd.

So one can see that in that two-year period, while there has been that very large increase of two million, four hundred and fifty-odd thousand dolla.J:'s in the pay of the Civil Service, I would say without any quaiification that by far the major part of it is simply due to the policy of increments that has been in effect for some time, and is due to the raising the base on which all employees are situated in last year's estimates.

So I think that point should be made known and it bears on the figure that is before us now, because the figure that is before us now is based on the salaries, and if there is an automatic increment goes through as there is, as there has been six times since '47, and if we have a raising of the whole floor as we had last year you can expect this item here to increase very drastically, and so it has, because the actual appropriation for the year '57 -'58 was only $551,000 and now as you see it's $895,000, and that is tied in to the whole of. the salary problem and the costs of running the administration.

So in order to be clear on this point and to indicate that there are a very -- that the most important factor in this is really not the increase in staff, although I'm not backing away from that for one second, there it is, and we are ready to stand up to that, but at the same time the major portion of this increase is accounted for by the normal process of events within the salary ranges. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I don't think I could agree with the last state ment of the Honourable First Minister. According to his calculations pay increases account Page 434 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Hryhorczuk, cont'd) ••.•.. for two million four approximately. MR . ROBLIN: I'm not making any positive statement on that so don't base any cal culations on i:ny off-the-cuff approximation. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Well, we'll just take that in round figures approximately. I'm not going to hold the Honourable the First Minister to this figure.

But according to my calcul ations, and I've been pretty careful in them and I think they're fairly close to being accurate, the increase in salaries to civil servants since March 31st, 1959 amount to five million five, and if you deduct the two million four from the five million five, you have three million one to account for, and the only way, Mr. Chairman, that I can account for it, and I stand to be corrected, is that that many more civil servants were added to make up the three million one. MR . ROBLIN: No, Sir, my honourable friend's arithmetic is at fault somewhere.

I don't know where lie gets his figure from but the figures that I used of the total increase in wages, and I'm not adding in this particular item at the moment, the total increase in wages of $2,450,000 was supplied to the House from the office of the Comptroller-General, and, therefore, I'm inclined to think that it's right. I don't know how my honourable friend gets his figures but we, I believe, are supplying what we believe to be completely accurate figures obtained from that office . MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not quarrelling with the figure of two million four, but I'm just pointing out that according to my calculations the increase in salar ies since the 31st of March, 1959, is five million five, and I would like to know how you account for the difference.. I' m not quarrelling with the two million four. MR. ROBLIN: Well that's the basis of our quarrel because we say the increase in salaries is two million four and we say that figure was given to us by the Comptroller-General. Now I can't get any closer to it than that. If my honourable friend has some other figure I' m at a loss to explain it. MR .

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 19 -- MR. MOL GAT: On this item, are these pensions transferable? Now there's a great deal of that coming up in industry today and, as I recall it, they were not transferable in the Provincial Civil Service. Now I presume the answer to be no. Has there been any project, any pla.'1s, any investigation of the possibility of making this transferable? MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend does raise a point which is receiving a good deal of consideration these days. These pensions are not fully transferable.

They are only transferable in the sense that after you've been there a while you can get your own contribution out, but you cannot get the contribution of the government out. The contribu tion of the government remains in the fund and eventually winds up by, I understand, in the pensions that are drawn by the civil servants who stayed the full length of their term with the government and actually draw their pension. In other words, the government doesn't get that money back but it remains in the fund for the benefit of the pensioners of the civil service.

Now you have to consider whether that is the right thing to do or whether it should be with drawn and taken away by the employee concerned, and I'm frank to admit there's some argu ment that that should be the case. I don't real ly --I'm working on my memory but I think I'm right in saying that no real suggestion has been made to us by the civil service that there should be portability in these pensions, but as we're going to look into the whole fund anyway I haven't the slightest objection to looking into that point, and if it should be foimd desirable we can give it some consideration.

But no real suggestion has been made to me yet that I can recall, that there should be this portable pension. l\-ffi. D. ORLIKOW (st.John's): Mr. Chairman, on that point I thir.k it's fairly obvious that the organization of the civil servants tends to be one in which the people who stay are the people who are the most active in the organization and therefore not yery likely that they are going to raise the question of portability.

At the same time I do think that we are having - this is not only the case with the provincial civil service; across Canada we are getting much more mobility amongst employees than we have had in recent years, and I do think that if this whole question of pensions is being discussed and thought about, that the government ought to give some thought with the civil service organization. I certainly don't believe in a unilateral decision but I think that the whole question of portability or partial portability should be given consideration.

It is becoming more and more the method which is used by industry in general. February 11th, 1960 ?age 435

MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 19 -passed. Resolution 20, Civil Service Group Life Insurance, $50,000. MR . PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, may I ask a few questic-ns on this item? I would like to ask whether this will be a contributory system of insurance for the civil service or whether they will be asked to contribute to this plan, and in that case, what percentage will be asked to contribute? Is it 50% or what is it? I would like to ask also whether the plan would be available or would it cover the Cabinet Ministers, or the Speaker, or maybe the MLAs whom the plan will cover? MR .

ROBLIN: The answers to all those questions can be found in the Bill that my honourable friend voted for last year. MR . PREFON TAINE: I'd like you to refresh my memory, if you be kind enough. MR . ROBLIN: I don't think that I could possibly refresh my honourable friend's memory. MR . MOLGAT: The honourable member did raise one point however which may be in the bill, but it escaped my attention if it is. What is the situation of the members of this House insofar as the -- are we covered or are we not?

And what is the situation if, by force of events which sometimes we do not control, we only stay here four years and then we're no longer here. What is the whole situation? MR . ROBLIN: Well I can understand my honourable friend's apprehension, but I don't know whether I can fully relieve it. The position is that if he wants, or any member of the House wishes to join this fund he can do so, but he pays the full premium himself. No portion of it is paid by the public treasury.

I don't want to appear as a salesman in this matter but I think it's a pretty good deal because there's no examination and you just enter as part of the group, and it might be well worth considering for any member that wants an econ omical form of insurance, but he has to pay the whole bill himself. And then I think that if he should leave this hallowed horseshoe at any time, I think he can continue, but I'm not positive on that point. MR . MO LG AT: I see . Well I really wasn't worried about members of our group, Mr. Chairman.

My concern was actually for the honourable gentlemen across from me, and insofar as the matter of medical examination we're all very healthy over here, so there's no problem. I wonder if the Minister could give us a progress report at this time on this matter of the insurance. Now this was passed last summer and I believe the government has proceed ed since then to do some investigations and so on, and I think they have appointed someone as an advisor in this category. Could he tell us exactly what is going on and when we m ay expect this to start? MR. ROBLIN: The answer is very soon.

When this. was approved after the House rose last August we appointed a technical advisor to work with the Civil Service Association in setting up a plan that would meet their convenience and that fits into the general type of policy of this sort that is developed. When that basic requirement was decided upon, we then issued a bid for tenders and I think some 20 or 25 different companies have tendered. These tenders have been--, were received in public, opened in public, annotated in public, and the whole matter has been treated in the usual way for a tender of that sort.

The insurance advis or is now in the process of sorting out the different tenders to decide which one seems to be the most attractivitfrom the point of view of the government and the service, and that process is not yet completed. It's well advanced though. I understand that we, the government, should be in a position very soon of knowing the various kinds of bids that have been made for this kind of service. When we do we'll be able to select one. I think that should be very soon now. This is a pretty tricky matter.

It's a highly involved technical matter and we remember the difficulties that another government body got into on the very same matter in trying to make sure that all the technicalities were complied with and correct and everyone was treated on the same basis, and a reasonable comparison made, so that we could be sb.re that all the proper facts were on the table. Now that takes time, but it's. almost completed and I think it should be available for the civil service very soon. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, might I ask the Minister if it's not so that already employees of the Civil Service have received a document outlining the plan to them and possible costs, and attached thereto, if I recall correctly, was an application form. Page 436 February 11th, 1960

MR . ROBLIN: I'm not sure of that. There may be two different things involved here. I believe the civil service canvassed their people on the type of plan that they would want.

There are different alternatives that could be provided in a plan of this sort and one of the things that the government wanted to know is what do the employees want, because this is being designed for them and it obviously makes sense to ask them, and we asked that question through the Joint Council, and my understanding is that a considerable amount of discussion and enquiry took place within the ra.Jks of the civil service in order to find out what they wanted. And of course it is possible at such a time to give a rough approximation of what the costs might be although they are not refined.

That depends on the tender, but you can have a rough idea. Now that's as far as the thing has gone to my understanding. I'm at a loss to explain any suggestion that an application form has been given out unless it's to say if this sort of thing were available, would you like it? If that kind of an application is what's referred to then I can quite understand it, but a final application, sign here on the dotted line and you're in, I'm positive that hasn't gone out because it can't go out until we've settled the matter that we've just been discussing. MR .

PAULLEY: I won't say anything further on that particular point, Mr. Chairman, until I clarify what it was, but it was my understanding that it was a little bit more of a firm decision to be made than illustrated by my honourable friend. MR . S. PETERS (Elmwood): Will they all be covered for the same amount or will there be different cove rages? MR . ROBLIN: That too is in the bill that was passed last year and if my holl.ourable friend will look at it he will get the details . . MR . N. SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): Mr.

Chairman, inasmuch as it has been now established that the members may apply for this insurance and pay the full premium them selves, which is understandable, is it the intention of the government to forward application forms to the members when the plan and program has been designed? MR . ROBLIN: We would be glad to do so if there is indication that it would be desired. MR .

SHOEMAKER: I'd like to suggest that it would be well worthwhile because being in the insurance business we do know and appreciate the fact that there are many persons who might obtain insurance coverage through this program that would be uninsurable otherwise. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, when the Honourable Minister said soon, he gave us_ some details about what had been done; that all the tenders were in and so on. Is there a good possibility that this will be done before the House rises? I know he can't assure us when the House is going to rise, but by normal expectation it could be some time in March.

Is it possible or probable that he will have the details before that time? MR . ROBLIN:. It is possible, but I can't commit myself on it. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 20 - passed. Item 7, Purchasing Bureau, (a). _ MR . GRAY: I would like to direct a question to the Provincial Secretary, but as he is not in his seat and judging so far I think that the First Minister almost. runs every department, may I direct a question to him now? What are the duties of the Purchasing Agent? To whom is he responsible?

Is he making all the purchases on his own, by tender or otherwise, or is he consulting his Minister or any other member of the government? In other worQ8, whether he has full control over all purchases, because after all he is purchasing millions of dollars a year, or is there some control.over that? The reason I ask this question is that I am informed - and I'm not going to state that this is correct.

As a matter of fact, I probably think it is not correct but nevertheless the information around the city is that some people, ·merchandis ing articles that the government buys, and sometime they have no chance even to get to the front door. Now I'm not -- I'm making this statement with reservations. Chances are that the man, the people that told me that are not correct, and that's. the only reason I ask this question as to his responsibility as a purchasing agent for the province, which is a very very big job.

If the First Minister cannot give me the information I'm prepared to wait until the Provincial Secretary takes his seat. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I should have stated earlier on today that my honourable colleague is fighting the good fight for the Province of Manitoba before the Freight Rate Royal Commission this afternoon. He is --my colleague the Minister of Agri culture is making a statement in respect of agriculture; in particular elaborating our views February 11th, 1960 Page 437

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd) ..... on the Crow's Nest, and my honourable colleague, the Minister of Industry and Commerce is doing the same thing for industrial development and northern freight rates. That's why he's not here today. But I undertook on his behalf to clear the easy part of his job, the small balance of these estimates that are here, with :fue House.

I must say I don't envy him his experience this afternoon because we sometimes think that the cross examination here is intensive, but at the risk of wounding the feelings of some of my honour able friends, let me say that we're a bunch of patsies in here compared with the kind of a grilling you get when you're up before the Royal Commission on Freight Rates. So I don't know when I'm going to see my honourable friend again. But in the meanwhile, let me try and answer the question.

If my honourable friend will refer to the Act that governs the govern ment purchasing bureau he will find the answers to the questions that he seeks about the powers and duties and responsibilities of this particular branch of the government. I would draw the attention of the committee to the fact that this has been tr ansferred recently from the Depart ment of Thblic Works to the Department of the Provincial Secretary.

Our feeling was that it would be more advisable to switch this from a heavy purchasing department, where there might perhaps be some suggestion of control, to a non-operational and non-purchasing department like the Provincial Secretary where the Minister can certainly take a completely independent view of the purchases.

Now that's not been done because we were really dissatisfied with the present arrangement or really felt that now or in the past that there had been anything to com plain about, but it just seemed to us to be. a little bit more logical to transfer it to the Provinc ial Secretary, so that's what we've done. Now what did this man do? Except for the Queen's Printer and the Provincial Library and the Provincial Architect and The Text Book Bureau, he does the purchasing for the govern ment of Manitoba.

It's centralized; he's not responsible for the boards and commissions, like the Power Commission and the Liquor Commission and the Telephone System and the Hydro Electric Board, but he is responsible for the government purchasing. And the way it works is that anyone that wants anything makes out a requisition which has to be approved by the approp riate department official, the Deputy Minister or somebody else in there, and once it has re ceived departmental approval it then goes to the purchasing bureau. He then places the item on tender. Now there are two ways of placing an item on tender.

The first way is to advert ise it in the newspaper, in which case everybody has a chance to see it and that is done in most important types of contracts. The second way is that when the possible circle of suppli ers is known, that possible circle is invited to tender.

And it may very well be that somebody new comes into the business and says, "I ought to belong to this circle; why am I not invited to tender?" If anyone who feels that he's in that situation will simply make himself known, we'll be glad to see that he is invited to tender, because the object of this whole process is to allow the widest possible circulation of invitations to tender on the part of the government so that we can get the lowest price, because our policy has been -- and I must say in fairness that I fully believe it was the policy of our predecessors -- our policy has been to accept the lowest tender, all other things being equal, and I can recall of no instance in our term of office where that has not been done.

That's a pretty sweeping statement but I believe it to be correct, and I know that on occasions the Treasury Board has been presented with certain suggestions that there might be some reason to depart from that principle, but we have never approved of it. We feel that the lowest tender is what should be accepted, and to the best of my knowledge that is exactly what is being done. So I think that gives a rough idea of what happens in the Government Purchasing Department. I would be rather surprised, as I'm sure my honourable friend is himself, if it were correct that anyone had been prevented from tendering.

But if there is any one who feels that they're not fairly dealt with, all they have to do is ask for an invitation to tender and we'll do our best to see that they get it, because we want to make sure that every one has an equal chance. MR . GRAY: Mr. Chairman; of course I'm not sure whether it's correct. I think your statement will clarify to them of the situation. That was the purpose of my question. MR. L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr.

Chairman, do we take from the words of the Honourable the First Minister that all vehicles are purchased through the purchasing bureau also? -And if so, is the lowest tender accepted in all cases? MR . ROBLIN: The lowest tender is accepted in all cases. Now I want to--if it Page 438 February 11th, 1960

{Mr. Roblin, cont'd) .•.• isn't, heads will roll, because that's our policy. Now there 's one point that per haps I should refer to, and that is, that it has been the custom , and I think I'm correc t in saying that we made no change in it when we came in, that in the question of auto mobiles for example, that in some instances the invitations to tender may be restricted to an are a.

For example, if a car . -- the people in Brandon ma y say -- there may be 20 or half a dozen dealers in Brandon ; they say we can't pos sibly compete with Winnipeg pri ces; we pay taxes, therefore , we should be entitled to get some of this business . That• s an exceedingly difficult problem to solve, to be fair to the public interest.

So what has been done in days gone by is to say well, on a certain am ount of business we'll restrict the invitation to tender for people say within a 50 -mile radius of Brandon, and that will give us - I don't know - 10 or so bids on the item and the business is dealt with in that way. Now I'm certainly open to conviction -- open to pers uasion that we shouldn't do that, that the only thing to do is to say anyone in the Province of Manitoba on an item like cars, and perhaps we'd sell them all to one firm here in Winnipeg.

But it has been found advisable by, as I say, our pred ecesso rs,· and we have continued to deal with that type of business in the way that I mentioned. So to _ be pe rfectly candid with the committee, I think I should put that fact before them as well. MR. GUTT ORMSON: Mr. Chairman, could the First Minister indicate when I'll get my Order for Return regarding the tenders on the purchasing of automobiles for the government ? MR . ROBLIN : Yes, my honourable friend asked a very great deal of informa tion . You mustn•t be impa tient; we're doing our best . MR . MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman, this matter of purchasing of course is a very diffi cult one I know, when you're buying for as large an organ iza tion as the Provincial Government. Now what is the policy insofar as tenders ? Are they public, or do they rem ain the property of the purchasing bure au ? Ca n an unsuccessful tenderer come and find out what the other ten ders have been? Or for that ma tter, can the succes sful tenderer find out what the others have bid? Can someone who didn't tender but who may be interested in the product come in and ask for informat ion? MR . ROBLIN : That's a good point .

I remember dealing with the same thing when I sat in the very seat that my honourable friend sits in, and I remember the then Provincial Tre asurer telling us that, no, they re ally couldn't do that. I was never very convinced that his answer was a sound one, and I'm not convinced today . My own view is that if anybody, any citizen of this province wants to come in and see what the price or a bid was on anything the government purchased, he should have the right to do so . Cer tainly if he can't get it in that way, he can always get someone to ask the question in this House and the informa tion will be prod uced.

The purchasing people, however, are very shy of this and I'm never entire ly convinced they'r e right on it. They say that this might have a tendency to promote fictitious bids or bids that are not strictly kosher, to coin a phra se, and they've got some reasons of experience that lead them to feel that this might not be a good thing .. But I'll tell you what we do . We have not is sued any blanket instruction that I' m aware of to the purchasing bureau saying, show.

But if there 's any member of the public or any bidder who really feels keenly enough about this to come· and ask the Minister or myself, we will certainly, at any time , make sure that that information is disclosed to him . Now that's a kind of a compromise bet ween the two points of view. It seems to work out aiFright but I'll admit that it's a funny situation . MR . MOLGAT : Mr. Chairm an, what is the situation on tenders in outlying points ? Let's assume , say, the Provincial Government has a survey crew up at Thompson or in various points throughout the province like that.

What are the policies there insofar as purchasing ? MR . ROBLIN: With respec t to local purchasing ? MR. MOLGAT : In respec t to food and other requirem ents for, say, the crew, and the gasoline . MR . ROBLIN : Oh. In most cases of course those expenses are paid for by a contractor and they don't enter into the government acco unt. But in remo te areas , the tender principle is one that is very difficult to follow. If there's only one supplier in the point , obviously you haven't got much choice but to go and see him if he's 100 miles away .February 11th, 1960 Page 439

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd) ..... from somebody else . You run across this thing for example in social allowances, or in social welfare -- get into an Indian settlement or an isolated north ern settlement; there only is one store, so obviously you'v e got to give the person, if you're dealing in vouchers , you have to give the voucher on that particular store . So you're in the situation where you pr etty well have to use your head as to what's reaso nable .

Our principle is tendering, but I agree that there are certain instances of that sort where obviously it would not be a very practical thing to do and people just have to use their good jtill.gment. MR . MOLGAT : I apprecia te the difficulty in outlying points; that's the reason I asked the question. Supposing a number of establishments were -- let's take the case of gasoline -- let's go back to the survey crew beca use we do have provincial survey crews working directly for the Provincial Government in various parts of the provin ce .

Now if there are a number of places where they can purchas e, what is the policy of the government and what instructions are they given as to their purchasing ? MR . ROBLIN : A comm odity that's the sa me price as gasoline, we try to exercise a certain discr etion in making sure that nobody gets entirely overlook ed . But really these matters are sma ll in their nature and I can't speak with authority. I'd have to go and ask the Department of Public Works just what Joe Blow does up at Wabowden or wherever it happ ens to be .

But I imagine that these matters are pretty well left with the man concerned to be reaso nable about it. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 21, Purchasing Bureau , (

a) passed, (

b) passed. Purchasing Bure au , $5 8, 810 -p assed. Department V- Education - 1, Administra tion . . . . . . . . • • . . . . . . Continued on next page Page 440 February 11th, 1960

HO�. S. McLEAN (Minister of Education) (Dauphin) : Mr. Chairman, it is interesting and significant that today , when we begin our consideration of the estimates of the De partment of Education that it is also National Students Day, which has been observed by the' students of the University of Manitoba, and indeed this morning they held here in this place what they called a "revolutionary government".

I have with me the Speech from the Throne which was delivered this morning here , and from which I would like to read just one paragraph because of i.ts bear ing upon the matter which we now have under consideration.

This is the paragraph, and I quote, "The motto of this ses sion shall be 'E ducation is the Nation's Greatest Asset' and it shall be the goal of the members of this House to keep this motto always in their minds and to be aware at all times that what they do here to improve education, they are doing with the even higher aim of making this country of Canada truly great and enlightened�-a leader among the nations of the world" . I thought that that might make a fitting introduction to our consi deration of the esti ma tes in the Depa rtment of Education. A MEMBER: Hear ! Hear! MR.

McLEAN: There are two OJ; three things, Mr. Chair man, which direct our attention in a--I think a dramatic way to the things which have been hap pening in the field of education in this province since we last had the occasi on to consider the estimates of the department. The most dram atic of course is .quite clearly in the printed es timates thems elves, where on the last occa sion we asked for school grants in the amount of some $18 million.

We are this time ask ing the committee and the House-- the legislature to approve proposed grants in the amount of something over $24 million, an increase of some $6 million. That, of course, overshadows in every other consi deration and in any other manner the chan ges and progress that we are mak ing in this im portant fi.eld. But I think it is also illustrated, when one considers the increase in the number of classrooms, be0ause it is in this matter and similar matters that the money is translated into actual work in the field of providing educational services.

Whereas in the calen dar year of 1958 there were 387 classrooms and classroom equivalents approved for constructi on in the province, in the year 1959 there were 908 , more than double, almost three times --I shouldn't say almost three times--more than double the number of classrooms --and that in this year, to date, from the fi.rst of January until the present time we have applic ations for approv al of 30 0 classrooms and classroom equivalents. That is in a period of just a few day s more than one month.

It is also demonstrated in another area, related to the transpo rtation of stu dents to schools, when we note that as of the 31 st of January, 1960, there had been purchased some 63 buses for the transporta tion of students to school and practic ally all of those purchases made after the approval of our estima tes last year, and that of those buses, 57 had been pur chased by school divisions for the purpose of transpo rting students to the high schools or high schools within the division; six purchased by school districts, and that some 14 divisions had purchased buses.

And not only in that num ber of--that amount of equipment purchased for trans portation, but the number of van routes.

Whereas on December 31 st, 1958, there were 871 , one year later, December 31 st, 1959, there were 1, 13 9; and there were in addition, 245 con tracted van routes in the school divisions . That's in addition to the buses that are operated by the school divisions . I mention these matters and they'll be matters of particular discussion and concern as we proceed, but I mention them to indicate the change s that have taken place and are taking place in the educational field in the Province of Manitoba.

Now to return to some statistics, and because of the interest in this House on the matter of number of persons on staff so far, I want to give and I trust that this will res olve this part of our consideration, without too much diff iculty, the number of persons em ployed in the Depart ment of Education.

One of the difficulti es in recon ciling figu res as has already been indicated is the fact that there were when we came to off ice, and indeed of course there are still, a num ber of what are known as provisional positions and we have been engaged in making a number of these so-ca lled provisional positions established positions , because the fact of the matter was that the provisional positions had existed and were fil led for many, many years.

But taking the total number of persons em ployed in all ki.nds of positions , both established and provisional in the Depa rtment of Education as at December 31 st, 1957 , 273 ; on December 31 st, 1958, there were 299; and December 2.1st, 1959, there were 300. Turning to the establishment as between the estimates of the current fisca l year and the establishment for the upcomi ng fiscal year, the figure stands at an even 300. That is to say, our estimates for the fiscal year 1959-1960 February 11th, 1960 Page 441

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) .• provided for 300 persons in theDep�rtment of Education and the es ti mates which are now before this commi ttee provide for 300 positions, so there is no proposed increase in the total number of positions for the Department of Education.

That is not to say that the exact number of positions in each branch is exactly the same because we have done some shifting as between the various branches, and there are some pluses in some of the branches, but a corresponding decrease in others, and coming to 300 positions both for the current fiscal year and the fiscal year for which we are preparing. I may give you, and perhaps it would be advisable to do so now, the various branches looking at the estimates sheet under 1(

a) the sal ary item--in the current fiscal year there were 38; in the upcoming fiscal year 46, or an in crease of eight. In 3(a)(1)-T eacher Training Administration, there are this current year, seven. We are asking for ten, an increase of three. In 3(b)(1 ) -Manitoba Teachers College, 55 in the '59-'60 year; 53 in the '60-'61 year, a decrease of two. In the 4(a)(1) group-Curricul um, 11 in the current fiscal year; 13 being asked for in the estimates now before this commi ttee for an increase of two.

When we come to the vocational item, (b)(1) , we have 80 this year; 67 only in the upcoming estimates for a decrease of 13. Vocational, (c)(1)-l'm sorry--Instruction, which is (c) (1) , 84 in the current fiscal year; 85 in the estimates now before the commi ttee , for an increase of one, and in Special Services, 25; --we're asking for 26, an increase of one. And a:> I say the total number in both cases, 300 . I wanted to give that statistical information to the House on the matter of the number of persons employed in the department.

However, while speaking on the matter of staff, there is one other thing that I should like to say by way of appreciation to the deputy minister and all those who have been associated with him in the work of the department. In the report, which members I am certain have read, from the deputy minister to myself, he concluded with this paragraph, which I should like to read, and I quote, "The year provided great opportunities and satisfaction, but they were attained only by great efforts and devotion to duty on the part of your staff.

Burdens fell most heavily on senior membars of central staff and on school inspectors, but constant and unusual demands were made on every branch and every category of staff. The -seemingly unending succession of dead lines could not have been met except with the willing and enthusiastic help of clerical and steno graphic staff. I assure you that you have every right and reason to be proud of your staff". And I do want to emphasize, Mr.

Chairman, the appreciation which we have to the staff because they have worked indeed far beyond the call of" duty in the tremendous amount of work that we have had to do during the past year--indeed during the past 18 months. The grand total number of students in our schools as of June 30th, 1959, in Manitoba was 187, 957 ; and we have now approximately 7, 500 teachers in the province. Teacher supply is reasonably good. We were able, as the comm ittee knows, to dispense with the course which: for a number of years was given during the summer for permit teachers.

We disp.-:lnsed with that; did not hold it last summer an:i we have a relatively small number of teachers in the pro vince teaching on permit and letters of authority. We have a good enrollment in the Teachers College and at Brandon College and an excellent enrollment, almost a hundred percent increase in the number of students in the Faculty of Education at the University.

It is there that those who are to teach in the secondary schools, in the high schools, are trained; and this increase in their enrollment is indeed very encouraging because it is in that particular field that we have perhaps the greatest shortage of qualified people.

Not only is there an increase in the number in the Faculty of Education but in the, what is called the short course in the summer given at the university for university students for training for high school teaching, there was a substanti al increase in the enrollment in the summer of 1959 and we are looking forward to an equally large enrollme!J.t in the summer of 1960.

The officials of the department report to me that there is an encouraging interest in our high schools and in the university from prospective teacher-people who will be coming to o-:1r Teachers College and to the university next fall; and we have every hope that we will be able to very quickly overcome the shortage that we have of qualified teachers both in the elementary field and in the secondary field as well.

Mind you , the task, particularly in the secondary school grades, is not alone a matter of making good for the replacement of those who retire and go to other work and drop out, but it is also the problem of keeping up with the increase in the num ber of students which is substantial and will be very substantial in the immediate years that lie ahead of us. Page 442 February 11th,· 1960

(Mr. McLean, cont'd .) .• I've mentioned som ething about building and there are indications of a very considerable amount of building to be carried on this year. I would not wish to hazard a guess as to the number of rooms but it will certainly be the largest year of building in the--so far as schools are concerned, that there has been in the history of the Province of Manitoba.

I have been urging, and I say this here and now because reference was made to it on a previous occasion, I have been urging school trustees that they should exercise the greatest possible care in ensuring that their building plans are within the financial means of their own people, and in deed within the financial means of the Province of Manitoba. I see no benefit to be derived from exces sive expenditures on schools, and that is the policy which I have taken and which I intend to pursue.

I take the attitude that the job is one of providing adequate and proper classroom space for the pupils, and that beyond that our responsibilities really don't extend very far. One of the interesting developments during the year which is under review, or at least that has pas sed, was the receip t of the com plete and final report of the Royal Commis sion on Education, and as you know, Mr. Chairman, this matter--the recomme ndations made by the commissi on are under the careful study at the present time by the government and, I would hope, by all oth ers who are interested in the welfare of education.

I make this comment about the report, that while one might not accept in full all of the recom mendations made by the commis sion, and there will be differences of opinion, on the other hand, I think it is a useful report in that it does di rect our minds to many facets of our school system which need to be thought about and consider ed and wherein many improvements can and should be made. I think that it will serve a most useful purpose in that context.

Associ ated with the report of the Royal Commis sion, I of course also associ ate in my mind the report of the Physical Education and Recreation Commi ttee that was carried out some _time ago and whose report has been in our hands now since July of 1958. Because in a very real way both of these must be read together, as they both deal with things that go on in the classroom and sho'lld go on in the classroom.

And in our consideration of the Royal Commiss ion Report we include our consideration of that other report which is im portant and which, of course, needs very close scrutiny to. determine what benefits can be derived from im plementing the recomme ndations which that report makes.

When I presented the estimates of this department last time I mentioned to the com mittee the proposed reorganization of the staff of the department; the establishment of the branches as we hope to have them and that of course was provided for by the addition of certain established positions which were approved by the commi ttee and by the House . That staff reorganization has been com pletely in the official sense although not all of the positions have been filled.

Two im portant positions, namely, the position of Supervisor of School Buildings have not been filled although we have called for appli cations for that position, and the position of Supervisor of Transportation. Both, as I say, were provided for in the establishment approved last year and we hope that those positions will be fil- · led at an early date. The position of Supervisor of Transportation, of course, emphasized again the impo rtant aspect that transportation has come to have in our school system.

And the Super visor of School Buildings emphasizes the increased responsibility which we have in that partic ular field, and the fact that the Chief Inspector who has been responsible for that work is really not able to now carry on the duties that are now attached to that job as well as carry out his oth er important duties . I do not need to repeat--no purpose would be served by repeating this story about the es tablishment of school divisions.

When we last met we had this division established in all parts of the Province of Manitoba with the exception of four proposed divisions where on the original vote the establishm ent of divisions had been defeated. At that time I said that we were prepar ed to give a second vote if it was indicated to us that the people concerned were interested. The two of the proposed divisions did ask for a sec ond vote in 1959. In the case of the proposed di vision of Hanover, the majority of the people by their vote approved the establishment of the di vision and that division was established.

In the case of the proposed division of boundary, the vote was held but again rejected by the voters of that proposed division, with the result that we have one additional division established since this House last met. No request was recei ved from either of the other two and there the matter stands at the present time with 43 divisions established in the province and three territories or areas where there are no school divisions.

The balance of the school districts in the province which lie in remote parts of the province have been, of course, all declared what we call, for the purpose of the school act, remote February 11th, 1960 Page 443

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) .. school districts and they receive grants which are on the same basis as grants paid to school districts and school divisions within divisions. In every case of course, the remote school districts being one far removed from any adjacent or adjoining school districts . One of the things which was discussed when we met last was the subject of merit rating which had been recommended by the interim report of the Royal Commission on Education and again referred to indeed in their final report.

And the committee will remember that I inf orm ed the House of my intention to have a committee study what should be done in connection with that recommendation. There is a considerable dif ference of opinion about the subject of merit rating and I felt that it would be advisable to have some group let us have the benefit of their views with respect to it. The committee was established representing trustees, teachers and the department. And I have here today with me the report which is a unanimous report which that committee has brought in to me.

Perhaps before reading the report and I wish to do so in order to have it a matter of record in these proceedings . I should say that I think perhaps the different people approached the subject of merit rating from diff erent points of view. Some people are of the impression that merit rating will save money. From certain studies that I have been able to carry out myself, I'm now satisfied that merit rating in itself does not save money insofar as teachers' salaries are concerned; indeed, has been shown in every instance where it has been implemented to cost more money--not less money.

Other views are expres sed and it is a matter upon which perhaps there's strong opinion but no very unanimous opinion. However, I would like to read, in quote, in full, the report--not too long--which has been given to me by the committee on merit rating. And this is the report, and I quote, "Merit rating for salary purposes is an attempt to relate pay to perfor mance. As applied to teaching, it is based on the principle that good teachers should receive higher salaries than poor teachers.

The de ceptive simplicity of the general principle of pay according to perf ormance leads to increasing perplexity when some of the practical problems of implementation are examined. 1. The ex treme difficulty of defining and measuring teaching competence in other than subjected terms. 2. The consequent diffi culty of obtaining unif ormity and consistency iri the rating of teaching. 3. The variability in teaching situations and conditions. 4. The problems of staff relation ships when rating is attempted by salary differenti als.

These problems lead to the conclusion that no simple formula can be re adily found by which the principle of merit p.1y can be imple mented. Furthermore, it is doubtful whether any scheme externally contrived can be success fully imposed upon any group of teachers. In the opinion of the committee, the recommendati ons of the Manitoba Royal Commission regarding the payment or withholding of salary grants on the basis of merit years completed do not constitute a true merit rating plan.

The commit tee is unanimous in the opinion that it would not be feasible to implement a system of merit rating on a province-wide basis at this time. In addition to the practical diff iculties already cited, this view is supported by a1 rather extensive and comprehensive review of inf ormation relating to experiments which have been carried out in this connection in the United States and Canada. Recommendations : 1. It is recommended that an experimental project in merit rating be undertaken in a Manitoba school division when the following conditions have been met; (

a) the concurrence of the school boards and teachers concerned and the approval of the Depart ment of Education; (

b) suff icient administrative and supervisory personnel available; (

c) accept ed full salary schedu les ; (

d) at least 75% of teachers qualifi ed for the positions they hold; (

e) development of an acceptable system of evaluation of teaching perfor mance. It is understood that the Department of Education would undertake to provide such assistance as might be re quested by the school boards and teachers concerned".

Then there is a note here, "a minority of members of the commission"--"committee", rather "believe that no experimental project should be instituted until basic principles of evaluation of teaching perfo rmance have been agreed upon by the provincial committee representing the teachers ' organizations , The Manitoba Teachers Society, the Department of Education, and possibly citizens at large"--sorry, "trus tees' organizations, teachers' societies, Department of Education and possibly citizens at large . 2.

It is unanimously recommended that even if an experimental project is not under taken, a provincial committee should be set up to study teaching evaluation and to formulate principles for such evaluation. This committee should include representatives of the trustees' organization, The Manitoba Teachers Society, the Department of Educ ation and possibly citi zens at large." And then the report has been signed by the many members of the committee and Page 444 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. McLean, cont'd. ) .• that is the end of the quotation from the report. And I should like to inform the committee, Mr. Chairman, that it is our intention to adopt the recommendation of the committee and to endeavour to have an experimental project in mer it rating carried out along the line s which has been recomme n:ied by the committee. I must say that the report has only just recen tly been received and that no steps have been taken at the moment to carry out that recommendation, and I mention only of our intention to follow the re commendation which they have made. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, would the minister be willing to give us the names of the committee members at this time? MR . McLEAN: The members of the committee were the following : Mrs . W. A. Trott, a trustee; Mr. W. T. Wherrett, trustee; Miss S. F. Shack, teacher; Mr. W. R. Gordon, who re presented the teachers ; he is a member of the staff of the Teachers Society; Dr. J. M. Brown, who is the Dean of the Faculty of Education at the university; Mr. R. W. Lightly of the staff of the De partment of Education, who was the chairman of the committee; and Mr. A. F.

Kerr, a school inspector of the Department of Education, and who was also the secretary of the commit tee. I think, Mr. Chairman, that perhaps in a general statement, I need not say anything fur ther except to extend two invitations to the members of the committee. I'm a little sorry that I'm not just able to give the detail, but if the committee keep me here as long as they did last year, I'm sure we'll have time to work this out. I would like to invite the members of the com mittee to visit the University of Manitoba.

Arrangements could be made to have a tour of in spection of the university facilities starting at approximately ten in the morning, concluding with lunch in the cafeteria of the university at 11:45 for which of course the members of the committee will pay. Also I would like to say that we would like very much if the members of the committee could also visit the Manitoba Technical Institute.

Approximately the same amount of time could be us efully spent in viewing the facilities which are avaUable there, again to be followed by lunch in the cafeteria of the "institute at the--I think the price is a little lo wer at the institute, but in any case --in both cases the members would be required to pay for their own meals. Now I'm mentioning this now and if there seems to be any interest, I will ask the Whips to inform me if there are sufficient number and we will endeavour to see if we can agree upon a suitable time.

I had it in my mind that we might visit the university tomorrow morning, but that was when I thought our estimates would be begi nning a little earlier and some other things have intervened to prevent that for tomorrow. I want, however, to say that I think that both visits would be helpful to the members of the committee in a consideration of the estimates that are before you for the university and for the technical institute as well. Mr. Chairman, that is all that I wanted to say by way of a general statement and I'm sure there will be a number of questions and we will be glad to answer them as best we can. MR.

HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, just to start off the questioning which the Honour able Minister expects, he referred to the sum of $6 million and I think that this statement pro bably requires a little bit of clarification. Some may be led to believe that the $6 million re presents an increase in the annual grant or on the basis of one year. If we refer to the last est imates we find that the $18 million shown there was only for part of a year.

And you will see a statement there that's appended to this particular page stating "on the full year basis, new grant system will require $21 million three; so actllally the increase on an annual basis is $3 million, not $6 mHlion , beca use we did not have a full year in the past school year. Now there's some information that I'd like to obtain from the min ister.

He may not have it on hand at the moment, but I'd appreciate receiving it before his estimates are over and_ that is-- the number of elemen tary teachers; the number of secondary teachers; the total grants in each case ; provincial grants for divisions--Daupb.in-Ocpre area, remote school districts and all oth er school districts; the total amount of provincial g;rants to elemen tary teachers and to second ary teachers in those four clas sifications. MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, ..•..• , the honourable member is asking the grants for elem entary teachers; grants for high school teachers in divisions and remote districts. MR . HRYHORCZUK: Separately in divisions�- in the Dauphin-Ochre area, remote school districts and all other school districts and all other, of course, would be the three proposed divisions that didn't accept the plan. MR. McLEAN: You mean that you are separating out the Dauphin-Ochre school area? February 11th, 1960 Page 445

MR. HRYHOR CZUK: I am, because I have reason to believe that the grants are not the same as they are in the other divisions and if they are then-- MR. McLEAN: But they are. MR. HRYHO RCZ UK: Well if I obtain this information I'll be satisfied and draw my own conclusions, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORLIKOW: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to direct one question to the minister at the present time. This afternoon we had put on our desks a report which is called "Summary of the Report of the Manitoba Royal Commission" and I looked through it very quickly. It seems to me that it's not merely a

summary. It is in some respects at least an

interpretation of the report. This is my impression on a very quick reading--! have the impression that in some cases it's sort of blunt--some of the things which the commission says- -and the question is, if the minister can tell us, who wrote this

summary? Is this the official position of the depart ment, and so on? MR. McLEAN: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if I might jus! refer to the point made by the Honourable Member for Ethelbert Plains first so that it won't escape my attention. What the honourable member says is correct, that the estimates last year pointed out that if the new grant system were in effect for the full year of 1959-60 that it would have required $21, 310, 000, al though the actual amount asked for was $18, 758, 000.

Now it's not particularly important to me how you interpret this but the fact. is that the amount of money- -the additional amount of money required in this upcoming fiscal year for school grants is an increase of some $6 mU lion. That's the fact. And the other--it is true if the new grant system had been in force be fore last year, then the figures would have been twenty-one and if the figure was twenty-four this year, the increase would have been $3 million. But the fact is that the actual increased amount asked for by way of increase is some $6 million. Now the Honourable Member for St. John's-- the

summary was prepared by the sec retary to the Royal Commission on Education. It is intended to be a "thought"

summary--! believe that's an expression that is used. You are not in any way bound to read it or to be guided by it. I thought the members of the committee might like to have it. It was prepared by the secretary of thB commission. . MR . E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman, I would like to firstof all extend my congra tulations to the honourable minister in the past year for a job that has been very well done--a very tremendous job to provide a system of education for all the children ofManitoba.

I do not agree with him to all ex: tents and purposes in regard to all decisions that have been made but I go along with his very great desire and effort to spark plug a system of education within the Provin()e of Manito ba that will give all children an equal opportunity. I do have some concern, Sir, in regard to some of th'a mechanics of the Act. I'm in the fortunate position that it can't be thrown at me that "you didn't do it when". I am one of the neo pl\ytes of the House and therefore I am going to base my remarks on the education system of Manitoba in regards to the mechanics.

First of all, Sir, we sa id a little over a year ago, in the promotional scheme to sell the system to the electors of Manitoba that we were going to give all children an equal opportunity; that we were going to lighten the load on real property tax; that the Provincial Gove rnment was going to assume a larger share of the cost of education. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, when we were promoting the plan of school divisions , we did not make any promise of lightening the load on the local taxpayer. MR. DOW: Well, Mr. Chairman, Hansard doesn't bear that out.

However, it is a con cern of the municipalities, towns in particularly the rural parts of Manitoba that they are going to pay a much greater tax for educational purposes. I think, Sir,-the concern can be shown by various petitions that were-'-resolutions that were unanimously passed at the Union of Manitoba Municipalities here a few months ago. And they're more concerned-- their concern in the Uni on is the increase in taxes to provide roads. I could read these resolutions into the records, Sir, but I think most of you have those resolutions .

But it is their concern that there is no pro vision that tlfe municipalities have at the moment that they are going to be subsidized in any way to provide schoolrooms or buses. Apparently, the choosing of the roads comes down to the opinions of the Division"Board and .in some cases --and I would say maybe in a lot of cases- these roads do not travel the established roads that are already there. It is a thought by mu nicipalities that they do have a problem inasmuch as there is no guarantee from one year to Page 446 February .lOth, 1960

(Mr. Dow, COQ.t'd. ) •• another that the bus route will travel that particular road and therefore it's a charge against the municipality. Might I point out, Sir, that there seems to be--I would think in my opinion--a very pathet ic view taken by ratepayers in regards to the spending of large sums of money? Today's Trib une, "River East Votes for New School Bylaw--$945, 000 money bylaw passed with ten percent of the ratepayers voting". I think, Sir, that they have taken so much for granted to get so much money that they really haven't too great an interest.

I would point out, Sir, in these few re marks that I am so interested in the fact that this system be a good system that I'm thinking that the mechanics are cret>.ting a disturbance throughout the rural part of Manitoba to a point that we eventually could disrupt the system and if we ever did it would be a very backward step. I might point out just one school district. Possibly the minister has some notice of this. If he hasn't, he will have very shortly.

I will give you the school district--the school district, Elgin school district--Pm sorry--I haven't got the number, but I think the honourable minister !mows the one I'm talking of. Five years ago they built a modern school to include all grades up to Grade XII . It was a 20 year debenture and they are now--they have paid four or five years. On the establishment of the school division this particular school had to relinquish their Grade XI and XII students to the larger school in Souris and they were notified a few days ago they were also going to have to relinquish their Grade IX and X students. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if you will look up the results of the vote in that particular school district at the time the division was promoted, you will find they almost has a unanimous vote in favour of the new school act. But as of last week, a petition was circulated in that same school district of which it was 95% signed by the electors to make some revision somewhere so they could establish and keep their own school operating within their own scho::>l district.

To those people and the members who reside in larger cities and areas, this does not seem to be a problem, but to the smaller com munities it is a very serious problem that the smaller two, three and four-room high schools are closed to transport their pupils some many miles to a central school. I might point out too that by this system of transportation, it does away with all the recreational movements and re creational organized games within the school they are attending.

When you stop to figure the children do start at a reasonably early hour in the morning and they're not home 'till later in the evening; they'll also cut out recesses; they have a shorter noon hour ; and they leave at 3: 30. Now this is a serious problem in com munity life within the smaller districts and I think will have a tendency_ to go a long way to undo what we have been trying to do to get a better system of education. The Minister, I w-as very interested in, giving the quotations of the various buses, vans and so on but I have another problem and I say this, Mr.

Minister, I hope in the spirit that I'm trying to promote. Maybe you don't know these things. In travelling No. 2 and 3 highway the past two or three weeks--it so happens to be in the morning when these vans are en route to schools--! find in several instances that children are being transported in half-ton trucks with a plywood box in some cases with no rear view in the back and just plank seats. Now if that's progress in education _it's a long way from when i went to school because we didn't go that way: In the wind the other day we followed two of them.

The wind was such a point that these were just rock ing to a point that you didn't know whether the plywood boxes would stay on the truck or not. Now I think that's a serious situation. Great stress was made, Mr. Chairman, at the time of the promotion of this bill that these pupils would start from sheltered points. Whether the minister knows this or not I'm not prepared to say but my ob servation is that if he will go out in the mornings he will see many occa sions where chi.ldren are standing on highways behind trying to get some shelter from telephone poles.

Maybe it's a circumstance of their own parents' desire but to me it doesn't look proper to see teenagers trying to get shelter from these various poles along the line.

Might I also point out, Sir, that the actual results of the school divisio�andihope they are what I think they should be that they will be an improvement in standards and in grades and in education of the pupilS-Cannot be determined for the next two or three years when the results are known but there are one or two things that I think we should take into consideration that the credit for increased attendance is not altogether the result of school divisions.

According to the Winnipeg Free Press on Jan uary 21 st, 1960, the Honourable Minister of Education, speaking before the.Manitoba School Trustees' Association, said that in the fall of '59 after establishment of school divisions, high February 11th, 1960 Page 447

(Mr. Dow, cont'd. ) ; . school enrollment jumped to 35, 232 an increase of 11% over the previous spring. He went on to say there was an increase of teachers and so on but what I'm trying to point out, Sir, that that is only a normal increase.

If you will take your records of enrollment in your annual report of the Department of Education as I have it on page 167 of 1958 that it is evident that in 1955 the normal increase of high school enrollment was almost 13%; in 1956 it was almost nine percent; in 157 almost seven percent and in 158 over seveu. percent so I can't see that the increase of 11% in '59 was really such a jump that could be credited to the school divisions--(interjection) --pardon me ? HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agriculture)(Rockwood-Iberville}: .•.... reverses the trend. MR.

DOW: Could be, but I would suggest, Sir, that it is likely to come from the urban divisions and not from the underprivileged hinterland. If however, this jump in enrollment is the result of increased high school opportunities in the school divisions in rural parts as claim ed by the minister then I think, Sir, it should occur mostly in Grade IX. Those results will prove themselves as time goes on.

Now, Sir, I am concerned as you know to the mechanics of taxation as related to the tax dollar and to some of the mechanics which can be straightened out in regard:; to the collection of the fee of the taxes as demanded by the school division. I think, Sir, that there is something that can be improved greatly is the present principle of asking the school division to ask for monies from municipalities, towns, cities and villages and to retain it and have the local school board have to borrow money to continue on. That's another added fact to the overall facts.

For yO'.lr information I have. the certified receipts, Sir, from one school district. It happens to be a suburban one and the figures are such--of $575 ,0 00 paid to their account and as levied for by the River East school division No. 9, only $239, 287 has been turned over to the local board. This is as of January 20th, 1960 and as a result the taxpayer of East Ki.ldonan has been called upon to pay interest to the bank so the local board could meet their commitments even though they have already paid the required school levy in full.

This I think, Sir, is a mechanical fea- ture that should be changed in the Act I would like to impress the fact that we, when I say we in the rural area, are not altogether and I per sonally am not, sold on the idea that all schools must be centralized in rural areas . It's too much town, political emnity between the towns to start with.

I can mention many towns that are not going to agree that they should give up the rights of a larger school to another town and therefore, Sir, I think that some consideration should be given that when it can be proved that the rights are there that they do have the opportunity of being able to reduce it. One thing, Sir, I would like to ask before I sit down is in the estimates I find there is no provision made for commission and studies.

Now I take, Sir, that that amount of �24, 500 paid last year was to the Royal Commissi on but is it not the Department of Education's intention that they continue the studies of education along to other years or is it going to be dropped now that we have this one report and for how long will it go?

He mentions , too, Sir, and this may be erroneous, this may be erroneous--I stand to be corrected but one of the school trustees mentioned this fact that some consideration had been given by the department, either by a direction or Order-in Council, that a teacher of 20 years service was going to be paid an extra salary over and above the schedule. Now I'm asking that for information, Sir. If it is true it sets up a very very hard bargaining point to school boards to bargain with this sum of money in mind, that that teacher, that length of time, is gaing to get over and above all increments. MR.

PREFONTJ}INE: Mr. Chairman-- MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, if I might just correct or speak to one point only because I wouldn't want it to escape too long. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain made re ference to the school district of Elgin. I now have the report from the chairman of the division board in which he says that the closing of the high school rooms at Elgin has not even been con sidered and that in the next year there will four high school teachers and four grades. There's no truth in that point. MR. DOW: ..•... M:::t. McLEAN: ..... I notice, however, that has never ev�n been consi�ered. MR.

PREFONT AINE: Mr. Chairman, as I take

part in this debate I am fully aware that some of the members of this House might think that I am unduly critical but I'm fully conscious Page 448 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd. ) .. also of my res ponsibilities as a member of the-opposi tion and as such· I think that my duty is to oppose and try to bring in also some constructive suggestion if I possibly can. I will start by opposing and I will , I think, bring some useful suggestion. Mr. Chairman, last October--a year ago last October the 27th the Honourable the Minister of Edu cation moved a second reading of a Bill in this House and he made this statement: "This Bill adopts the principles and general recommendations of the Royal Commission on Education as outlined in their interim report" .

Quite a lot of water has gone under the bridges since that time and I'm on my feet, Mr. Chairman, to try and pro·v-e that we have not now a system of school divisions that follows the recommendation of the interim report of the Royal Commissi on on Education. And I intend to prove that it doesn't follow the recommendations because of political considerations that entered the picture as the months went along and I maintain that we have now at the present time a system of complicated administration of small high schools in the Province of Manitoba--comp licated system of administration and a costly one.

In order to prove my point, Mr. Chairman, I must refer back to a couple of years ago. The present First Minister when he was sitting on this side of the House came out at different times with plans with respect to education although at no time did he tell the House whether he was favouring the Dauphin-Ochre plan or the plan for larger schools at the secondary level but he advocated both at different times and got big headlines. MR. ROBLIN: That's not correct. MR. f'REFO NTAINE: I think I'm correct. MR. ROBLIN: No, sorry. MR.

PREFONTAINE: I was bringing a quotation if you believe in what th:l papers report and I've been in this House and I listened to the honourable gentleman time after time. And the Honourable t..i.e present Minister of Education before he occupied that position had been a strong advocate of the larger unit system along the Dauphin-Ochre area plan. When the election was called in 1958 the Conservative Party had no program with respect to the administration of the schools--it had only one program we wUl give 50% more for education in the province--in crease the grants by 50%. That promise was made all over Manitoba.

Election was held, the Conser vatives came back with the largest group of 26. It was just too bad it was not enough to carry on--it was the Diefenbaker Ottawa situation of 1957 I believe . Now something had to be found. Some better proposition to offer the people of Manitoba had to be found in order to re-elect the government in that future election with an overall majority. Well , I suppose the government was looking around. There was a Royal Commission on Education that had been appointed and was working.

I have suggested in this House that a hint was given to the Royal Commission to bring out an interim report. Ithas never been denied. I hint again today that the interim report was the result of a hint by the government then in power because it doesn't seem to me natural and normal that this Royal Commission would have come .out with a interim report at that time if i.t had not been asked to bring one. Well it did bring out an interim report and in that report there was a recommendation with respect to larger school divisions . And then what did we see ? We see a government that was very happy, very happy.

They had found the secret to turn· the electors their way in Manitoba. They were very very happy to have this because how would they implement their promise of 50%-- they had no program, no system, no suggestion. They had not offered any suggestion to the people of this province but here was something worth while and I've been thinking since then of the famous, great scientist Archimedes.

The members will remember I am sure that he was famous scientist and he was working on the problem and suddenly while in his bath he discovered the secret and he came out not fully clothed and walk ed the streets and he said, "Eureka, Eureka I have found it". Now they have found it. The Con servatives had found it and you were quick to act. I never saw a greater display of energy than that shown by the government of that time and the government that we have now today with cer tain changes than was shown with res pect to the implementation of the interim report.

Yes, very energetic and they arrived at a timetable, !l very good timetable and I've got it here. The time table was this immediately as soon as it was possible to prepare a Bill-call a sess ion--this was done at the end of October, beginning of November. Immediately appoint-a Boundaries Commission and give them as little time as possible, but -it required time for the Boundaries Commission to establish the boundary. Of course, it facilitated tb.e problem. It divided the Commission in two so that it would meet the deadline of December 31st and there was a February 11th, 1960 Page 449

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd. ) •. deadline. These two months were fully occupied by this Boundar ies Commission and then there was another action taken. It was the time to take the vote on the divisions--January and February. That was the timetable. Session November, Boundaries Commission November, December--the vote January, February--March the session--May the election to slide in on the school divisions. Absolutely and it was a timetable that it was difficult to meet but it was met. Of course I am sure, Mr.

Chairman, that the government thought the divisions were pretty large when the Boundaries Commission made their recommenda tion. I am sure that the government, and I'm sure that if I had been the government I would have said to that Boundaries Commission--well it's impossible to have one high school or two high schools of 12 rooms as the Royal Commission recommended in this large divis1on. It's impossible, it can't be done. We should have smaller divisions.

The government had no time to give instructions to the Boundaries Commission to go back to work although they had the pow er to do so, according to the Act that we had just passed. Subsection 3 of

section 494:--The minister may refer or report back to the Commission for inclusion therein of further details or clarification of any part thereof that he deems not to contain sufficient detail or to be ambig uous. And watch this--and he may request a further report or an amended report. I say that if it had not been for the timetable I'm quite sure that the government would have asked that Commission to work at it some more but the government was squeezed by the timetable--it was imperative that everything should be on time. Mr. Speaker, a word about the legislation that we approved in November 1958.

Many things recomm ended in the Royal Commission were not brought into legislation. The Royal Commission had recommended and the whole basis of the report respecting the divisions is based on the necessity of having more pupils to attend the high sclnol. I'm quoting 'from page 21--quote "to meet the demand for more diversified education it is necessary to secure a suf ficient number of pupils in each attendance unit". On page 22 quote--"adequate secondary school facilities can only be provided if the number of pupils in attendance is large enough to justify a diversified secondary school program".

On No. 23--"The desirability of a division large enough to provide a satisfactory attep.dance unit for the secondary grades is particularly apparent". Same thing on page 24--"it is the opinion of the Commission that the ideal is one school, high school, per division". And the members know very well that the fundamental principle behind this and the recommendations made with respect to inducement grants.

Induce ment grants were suggested by the Royal Commission for one reason only and I will quote from page 46 "· ..... 75%" and that's one of their recommendations. 75% ofthe approved actual cost of building a new high school or of adding to an existing high school if such construction is necessary to consolidate a number of small present high schools. That was the purpose of inducement--to consolidate a small number of present high schools not to build a better high school with .an auditorium in some places.

No that was not the recommendation of the Commis sion and with respect to the city, here is a recomm endation in the case of cities and suburbs to add 75% was recommended in order to add to an acceptable present high school to accommo date high school pupils from territory added to the schools , to the city or suburbs by the Boun daries Commission. It was not to provide a new school in a city, only it was to provide for added pupils. That's the recommendation of the Royal Commission which was ignored. Now the government--(interjection)--l'll come to that if you just have a little bit of patience. :MR.

McLEAN: I wonder if I might ask the honourable member a question. I'm not too certain that I'm following. Do I understand that the honourable member is presenting an argu ment that he favours one high school in each division ? MR. PREFONTAINE: You will find my argument as I go along. I say that the recom mendation of the Commission was not followed by the government and when we paSS'ed a bill we passed a grant system for secondary high schools proposed by the minister from 40 to 80%.

I have his speech here and I agree with the Leader of the GCF Party when he mentioned that the government was ready to go aloni and give up to 80% to high schools without this rider of the Commission which says it's only to add to schools--pupils that are brought in especially in the cities. He was ready to give 80% for every high scho�l in the City of Winnipeg or Brandon or other cities. The minister said to this House that he was proposing that the grants should be from 40 to 80%.

Now this was not a recommendation of the Royal Commission and I defy the minister or anyone to look through the recommendations of the Royal Commission and they Page 450 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Prefontatne, cont1d. ) .. would not find anything at all except 12 classrooms, not any kind of rooms--12 classrooms. This was the brainchild of the government--this sliding scale. The government could foresee that in the election it was a good thing to seem to allow four-room or a five or a six-room high school. They paved the way. It would be more popular. They could feel beforehand the reaction of the people and they paved the way by making that motion.

I vot ed for the new system of equalization of money for all schools in Manitoba--there were two main principles and I declare to rise on the floor of this House but when before Law Amendments Committee, �.Ir. Chairman, we discussed this sliding scale two men stood up--my leader, Mr.

Camp bell and myself to say that we preferred the flat grant and we stated that this looked to us like to be weighted in favour of cities where there's a huge population and against the country where people are living far away from one another and they couldn't have the 12 rooms or the larger rooms and we opposed it and wanted a flat grant but we didn't get our way we were just as popular as skunks at a garden parcy. It wasn't popular. Oh no, the popular thing was the sliding scale, the larger schools.

We didn 't get our way, but we did improve it a little bit by reducing, not us but the ex-Premier and myself--our friends took an active part to see to it that the maximum was reduced from 80% to 75% and that a little more would be given to smal ler schools . But at that time, Mr. Chairman, we were thinking only in terms of classrooms. The boundaries made their recommendation and we had an election. Things happened in this election. There was a scut tling during the election of the.recommendations of the Royal Com mission. I will quote now--Yes, I will prove it. The Royal Commission recommended 12 class rooms.

Now the department published regulations in the Manitoba Gazette of June 3rd and I wonder if they had a right to make this publication. They should have defined what classrooms meant in the Bill that they presented in November to us but no, they defined the classroom by

section 29, page 31, The Manitoba Gazette for the purposes of determining the number of class rooms in a school (

a) every room in the school designed as a classroom of the traditional cype shall be deemed to be a classroom. but (

b) every room in the school designed and used for a li brary or a laboratory and that has an area of at least 700 square feet shall be deemed to be a classroom (

c) every other space in the school designed for the instruction of students and con sisting of at least 700 square feet not included in any other calculation of space for a class- room shall be deemed to be a classroom. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, is the honourable member suggesting that that was a new regulation? ., MR. PREFONTAINE: Yes, as far as I'm concerned. MR. McLEAN: That was the regulation long before we were here. MR. PREFONTAINE: A new regulation this sliding scale for grants to secondary schools- MR. McLEAN: Th e one you're reading. That was enforced long before we were here. MR. PREFONTAINE: No, no.

And I'm trying to explain that there was a change. We were led to believe in this House that this sliding scale would apply to classroom and that was the term used in this House--(interjection)--Well I can read the Act. MR. ROBLIN: Go ahead, read the Act. MR. PREFONTAINE: I can read the Act, Sir. There's only one word mentioned not a library room for the cost of each new secondary school building (a) 50 and five, ten percent thereof if it contains five classrooms--not auditoriums ....•• (b) 57 5/ 10% thereof if it con tains six classrooms--not auditoriums or library rooms.

A horse is a horse and a cow is a cow--it seems to me very plain. I don't think I'm as dumb as some of the members want oth ers to believe. This is clear in here. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman-- MR. PREFONTAINE: When the vote was taken on the division--my time is passing. When the vote was taken during the time of the division the government appealed to every per son in Manitoba to support this plan, to those wbo wanted centralization 12-room high schools, 12 classrooms, and to others who favoured their own little system and small classrooms. They came all over the place.

When they were asked well if we maintain our small class high schools we 'll have only about four classrooms look at the number of children we have in our localicy. "Oh", the minister said, "you can build an auditorium and that may count for four classrooms and you can build a library room and that'll count for another one and you can build a home eco nomics rooms and a typing room and you can build all those--you don't have to be afraid--you'll February 11th, 1960 Page 45 1

(Mr. Prefontaine, cont'd. ) , . get the 75%-- you can build a big school in your little village, ab solutely. And this was told all over the place. I think the members know that I'm right in this matter.

It was to try and make. this plausible to everyone-'-th ose who preferred to keep their little schools in their own town and their village and it was also right for the newspapers who wanted the centralization and the publicity they were getting .all over the place, they were try ing to be amiable to everyone in Manitoba to get a nice big vote and they went all over the pro vince a11d they made. good speeches, they made themselves very popular with the money of the taxpayers of Manitoba--promisi ng $6 million within the present tax structure.

It was stated in the town of Steinbach--1 can bring a quotation from the library any minute-"within the present tax structure" and it was said right in St. Pierre by the Minister of Education, "this could be done within the present tax structure". Absolutely, what did it mean to the division that I'm in? It meant $1, 920 per authorized teacher and that was quite a bit of money. And there are other things. The Royal Commission had recommended that the government should give $5, 000 ad vance grant. Advance grant to help the new divisions to get organized. An advance grant of $5, 000.

The governtnent called it an establishment grant to help the divisions because they were creating a new level of school administration and they had no bank account, they had no money. I haven't made that speech. I'm making it again if it doesn't happen to please the Honourable the First Minister. MR. ROBLIN: ..•... not supposed to be listening to me,_ these asides, you're not sup posed to hear that. MR. PREFONTAINE: And what was done, the government was very generous, an election was coming ...... $1 0, 000. The Royal Commission had made no recommendation that it should be given to the City of Winnipeg, or St.

Boniface or school district of Norwood. No, it was an advance grant but the $1 0, 000 was made available and I'm sure that some of the honourable members representing the City of Winnipeg were glad to annonnce to their voters at election time that this was done by a generous government. It meant quite a bit of money, it meant quite a bit of money. - other. :HON. STERLING R. LYON (Attorney-Gene ral)(Fort Garry): You voted for it in the Act. MR. PREFONTAIN E: I voted for the new system of schools and the .. •... Mr. Chairman. MR. LYON: And the grant. MR.

PREFONTAINE: I said in t.'le House and I repeat we could not divorce one from the MR. McLEAN: No and you still can't. ME •. PREFONTAINE: And l say that when the Cabinet Ministers, when the Cabinet Minis ters went out all over the country they were scuttling slowly but surely the recommendation of the Royal Commission with respect to education. But they were gaining votes, all over the pro vince, and it cost quite a bit of money. And there's a further thing, what about merit rating. we've had a report, a good report.

I think that it was loaded with teachers or e;l!:-teachers pos sibly, I say that was not a recommendation of the Royal Commission, not to implement merit rating. Of course the government would not announce it before. the election, of no, to have 5, 000 pretty well satisfied teachers siding for the government that's a good thing when the time for an election approaches. The

schedule was published in time--(int erj ection)--And there are these teachers , Mr. Sp·3aker, who had been hired already at a certain salary were told that this plan would give them an increase right from the first of April for three months. Tne election was timed to . • • . . . of course they had a chance to get one cheque I suppose, before the election was held. Well I say that there are many other things the Royal Commission re commended that the Boundaries Commission should promulgate the place where the high schools should be built inside a diviston. MR. ·Me LEAN: . . . . . • in favour of .that .. MR.

PREFONTAINE: I don't say I am I say that ,--(inter jection)-- you scuttled the report, you made a statement which I read that you were following the recommendation of the report. - (interjection)--Please leave me enough time to carry on, I pray • . MR. PAULLEY:. Well we'll consider this a second speech. MR. ROBLIN: How many minutes is it in committee anyway? 20 -isn't it? MR. PAULLEY:. No he .speaks as many times as he likes in committee. All I would sug gest is that if he wants to go for an hour and a half, every 40 minutes all that he has to do is sit Page 452 February 11th, 1960

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) •• down and start a second speech, which would then be within the rules of the House. MR. ROBLIN: Very sound. MR. PREFONTAINE: Now, Mr. Chairman--(in terjection)--Thank you you 're very ac commo dating my dear friend. --(interjection)--Some are laughing very heartily and others not so bBartily, I'm quite convinced. But the election was held and the governm ent slid into power on the school divisions that they had implemented. --(interjection)-- Yes I should say so to quite an extent.

They had become very popular with public funds, $6 million, $1, 900 per teacher in every school division, that was ver j popular. But 1 said at that time when I saw that the minis ter was going out and saying to the-people, you can have an auditorium you can have this and that room and when they were saying that all over I was thinking that the government had the li.on by the tail. The li.o!l would take the government into power. 0. K. But they couldn't let go of the tail, the lion has become a real monster at the present time. And I think that the minister is finding that out day by day.

He's meeting difficulties. Didn't he meet difficulties when he's reported in the paper, he was quoted by my leader, already after saying that the trustees had government money to spend it raises the question of whether there might come some pressure for greater control by the province on the activities and monies spent by school trustees. Well that's quite a threat. It shqws that the minister is worried.

We have now reach ed--I carry on quoting: "We have now reached a stage in the administration of financial affairs where the peopleof Manitoba generally will expect you "-- he was speaking of his trustees--"to exercise the utmost scrutiny in the expenditure of money under your control". Once yo'.l reach the position of over 60% it's right,. •it should have been. right also in February and March and January, February when the vote was taken but at the time the government was not thinking of money it was thinking of votes and making all kinds of promises.

Indeed more than the quest for a greater degree of control by the province "I hope", continued Mr. McLean, "it will ne ver be necessary for us to ever think about that in a serious way. Auditoriums are important" , he says, "but we are not engaged in the business of providing community centres". The minis ter is guilty of having stated that auditoriums could be built,is guilty of having stated that in the Province of Manitoba, in many places his colleagues stated that also, to please those who wanted to preserve their small school in the community, in their villages. Absolutely !

The minister doesn't seem to be worried. I think he must have been worried when he goes to a trustee convention and used this language ...... And of course there was news emanatins from the government that I quoted the other day , "A crisis in education, rising cost of education re form" says the Winnipeg Tribune in a big headliner story. The Free Press says in a big head line, "Money Crisis May Force Government Control of Teacher s' Pay". That's pretty serious. That's no laughing matter at all. It is a very serious matter. Now the Honourable the First Minister doesn't seem to be worried. Full sp·eed ahead.

But we should see that we are spend ing the money properly and I'll come to that a little later. MR. McLEAN: ...•.. say to the trustees. MR. PREFONTAINE: We have a costly system of administering the schools that we have. I know of a division where one trustee has to travel 80 miles to come to a 111 eeting if it is held at the other end of the division. And if the meeting is held at the centre , the two have to tra vel 40 miles each way--that's 80 miles--that's $8. 00--a nd that's quite a bit.

And these costs- it's a costly system that we have , and we have a man who lives 80 miles away to come and administer a school. He doesn't know anything about it. In my speech last year-- the horour able members remember --we remember-- those that were here in the fall of 1958 --we remem ber that I stated that I could foresee that the people of Oakville would want to keep their high school--th_ey would be in a division with Portage; that the people from Crystal City would want to keep their school--and they are right close to Pilot Mound; that the people of St.

Malo would like to keep their high school--and they are nine miles from St. Pierre ; the people of Grunthal would want to keep their high school. And I stated that if they were going to keep th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-18
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 18.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4b4cf72ff103960636ff35dc29fef45efab17f46

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