FR£LI!1I~lA.?-Y t.'"!-rED I'I'E::J !OR Ti'·:E ?:::?..:·:0: 3:CO ?·~· - 6:00 ?·=· :-10. 40

~lo•;e.m.!:le:: 29, :.Si9 rape . '"'' .... o .. ??.. - 1 ?.: • Speaker !.:'l ~::e C.haLr. ; • CollL'1.s) • re;::crt. .:u·.d ca.."l o: ;i.ve us ::'lent. cr. i':.? The hen. x:.r..:.s':.er ot :;:.:-.ance. )R • .J. c:::..:..r:-;s: ga.lnsa:; t..'lat.. in t:.:te :.ea::: tut'.lre :tc~o~ ':..'1.L~.gs a:::e ;e<:.:.in<; cr.. Co :-.ot gai:-,say what: has be~n ::epcrted 1 but: en the other hand r do say t:ha':. ~:,e aps;ro:d.::.at:ely -it ..,.as c:: :-:ove.!cl:;a;;::: 6, as a :~at':er ot !a=t: -t.he arrange=:ent 3677

Nov~er 29, l9i9 ?K - 2 J:. Col.li.:-,s: ~ssess ':hen in "-"·Y ·.;a.y 1 •,;a did not: look :.hose r:.a::::es en t::o th~ ?.~ceiver. :he First A:~bian proposal, I .1a'.>e r:.o C.e<:ail on t."la':. ! kno··• ':i".at. :..•ere :-.ave :Ceen inqciri.,.s, ':hough. MP.. J;.J1!ESCN : A supplecent::ary. A supple:::en:a::r·. the hon. Lead=: of t:h<;. OpfOS.!.t:l0!1. Coul::! ':::e ho:;.. :-J:ini.s:.er of ?inanc:e. (:;r. J. :cllir.

s) ccniirm c; deny anct.::e=~ repor-:. ;.;;..i.e.> ap;;:ears ':.0 ioave cr~denc~. n.:.rel'j t.:.;.;.:. 3G78

Hcve::be: 29,!.979 Tape ::o. 1455 AJ.i-1 !<!..R • .!A!1.IESCN: reqc.es<: that. e..l;e Gove:r.:.en'.:. of ~le.,.foundland t.a.'-:e over :."l.e ;:-oc.>U..al.li.r.; cr :...i.at. scL'r.e other action occur att:er t.~at. ea:.e? :n ot:..":er ...,ordsJ ue we up against a fairly tig-ht. dead!ine in ter.r.s of prese::"'.rL-.g -;.l;.e facility? I am sure t.i.e hen. :.he minister u..-.C.e:st:ands t.he ccnce:n t.ha.e that. 'olOuld cause. :-!R.SPEA.KE?.: (Si=.msl T~e hen. Minister of Fi~~-.ce. OR.ccr...::.:::s: :.o.r.

Speaker, as ! think ·..:as p:evious.ly staud 1 when EC!:G a::d t..':e Eeeeive:: 11isit.ed. us cr. ::cve.':'.:::er a~h they w~~ted to check out wit:.!;. us a n~~~er of ~oints. : ~~ink t.~ere ·"'e:e sever. in all. ~ey really esseno;ially just \o!ant.ed to U?date e..l;.e:;.selves in case t.i.e ?roNinee h.1d r:,.:.;.a.~ged i:.s vie•s or what:ev<:!r. !:C'ol ::r.e of :."l.e things t..i.ey Cici brir.g to our atunticr. - t."l.ey CiC net ac";ually, a:. :_\;.at: ti=e,as}; fo: a definit.ille response at t!-.at time, a: t-'i.a:. rneeti::.g,_ or.e of the pobes t:."ley diC. bring up .,.as t.. ... at t!'l.e cos:. cf ·~o:r.t..J.ll.lr.-~. '-'t'.i:il nas ;-one on .:or a ~nsi.:!e.ra!:le ;e:i:d o! :.:.::e ::ow ar:C. :i: Ce!ie.,..e a=.ou::.<:ad at t.. ... at dace to sc~ SZl ~il!icn, ~"la':. t~is vas ::::eco~.lng ~-. onerous they '<~ould ~ave >;.o seek. sct::e relie:: £:::::::: it.. ~:o ae":'.Jal -.:.i.::'le •Has laid of ne::t't. yea:,u."'1less t.•.ere 'olas sc~et..'-:ing clea:l:: in s!.g~": 1 ':..!:is =:at:':e:: would ha11e to be gone i."tt:C. :i:t was cot clea.rly st.at.eC. eit!':e: <:.."'lat ':..":e ?ro ... ·i."lce was ::::eing asked at :.hat :.=:.e,but : thir..k t.•.e !act t.'":a:. i:. ,..as brought to our at't.eneion is a hint in t..i.at direc't.ion. ttow the overa!.l cost of ::tot.h.balling ex- tends bot.i. to t.":e ?..eceivar:•s cost ar.d to t.i.e actual cost out 3.t t.l-..e plant. itself OU:: p<!:eept.icn was tf'.at the eost i.n t:er.::s c! :.he ?m:e!. ·.re: · ... ould not. be :eques<.:ed of anyone else, tb.at t.':.is was ::eally :..•.e !i:s": and ':!:.ey -..cu.ld. ::ot. be looki::.g fer :-elief f:om t.=:a:. siCe of things. ':'hey 'w'Ould be l::~okir.g fer ::e!.ief f:or. t.he ac:ual, technic::.! :::o:."i.t:a!.li:'IS' :::f 3679

::ove:-l::er 2.9,1979 AE-2 l:P .. CO!.L:~:s: SSOO,COO or $600,000 a ~nth as ~he overall ccst. So ~~e a=~~~~ ac~~~::t ~1.at t.hey ·..rculC. ::.ook ~o seeL-:.q as ;,ei.ng s:t:reaC !.!"ound t...,eir L.,~er.ti":r. • .. "'uld be ccnsi£.-rably less :.".an :!'.at. $500,000 o: $600,000 a ~~n~~. A Sut:P le:nenea.--y. ~R. S?!A.I(ZP.: ( S L.-.::-.

s) n supple~en~ar:. :~e he~. LeaCer o~ t..~e Cppcsition. !1R.J1.1-t:!SC!i: this :::att.e: !..s o:!' such i:-:;o:-t.ar.ce raise alar=:s or =.o an:r:~•i::g e.l:;e. ! ~ :>eef:.ir.g in!o=::-.at.:..cn in a q'...:l:e !acc-.:a.!. sort: of 'J4'J. Co~.;lcl : ask ::,e C'.iniste: i! inC~ed -:.he sit.'.lat:icr:. .a::-.er;as - and I :.ai<e i'! t.hat ECDG caz:,as l:.."'e firs: :-cr-:gagee, sl.::'l;:l:r· say as 3680

t.;ove::-.;e: 29 , 19 7~ Tap.; 1.;66 :::c - l au~"':.or:..:y- coulC. I ask, in !ashion? r-"ld secondly, i! :.here is, as see=:s :.o be sug:;es:.aC., so::-.e: :ie-J!ol:..'"ldland, is it, in :ac:., or :..as consi::era!:.ion be-e:r. g.1·.ren co aeeepeing ~~a!:. respo~sibili!:.y in order :o ensure ~~a:. ~~e :ae:..li:y is ke?t in ;ood shape?

The '::on. t.'"l.e !t.nis:e:- '::l! finance. be oa.inta.i.r.ed, I 3...'11 cer"!lll"'.ly no axper: ir. ':.he !.e<;al. !iel:i, and i:: a:-.:· of -::1 colleag-.res wish ':.o expa.nC on t."lat: ! ·,.;culd :::e only :oo ;lad it e-arta.in.!.:r I :..b.ir-'< ou.: ;osit.icn •Jould ~e - ar.d ;.oe necessa..-; - A;; no;~. :'.E~S?.: 0?.. .; .

COL:.::.;s: ve.::y flw.C - t...,_e.re =ould ::e changes· .. ..,:;;., "' beneficial effe:::-:. c:-. ::..~~ ref.:.ne.::-: aJ.:.os<; a:. ar.y ti~ - an.:!. :..;a: i:. :..s really an l.nC!"e.ui:-.;:;­ valuable asse:. as :.:..::-.e goes on a:-.:i as ':.".e:-e .:.s :r.o:e a:.ci ::ere :.1:..<. ::..-.a:. becoming ava.:..la.ble in t.i.e world now, as U:.ey i>ave to get. l..:l':O t.".e consi=.e:able cost o! upg=aciing ':!:.el!'.selves :c har:.:ile t.".a:, ·..-hereas ·..,e Has 3691 :..-.a

Tape 1466 EC - 2 CR. J. c.;:.:.::;.::;: l:lessage t."tae. e.hey r.:ay i:e se'l:..ing so::-.e a.<; '!he ti:.o.e . : ·.•i.ll leave it .:!.:. ,t.:."".a:.. The hon. :.oe re::':.Oer !o:: :'e:::'J. ::cv.l. Spea<e::, - ·,.,an:. :.o ::ii::ec:. a :;:u<;:!s:..:.cr. 3682

.. :a.npcwe.:. :L?.. J. :n:;:;: .not in t:ne hi~ early nex~ week a;ain. T. :.t:SH: Te.:ra :·:o'la. ce:~u..:..nly in :·L;, J. ;.::;:1: 1 .,.. .. _ ... ':,!/ ! -..;ill :::e SD - !. det.e!':'linaticn is :oacie,a.nd io;. shoc:.ld. be ::~a.C.e in the ;·ery near f·.1t.:.:r~ I would expec':. ':..'1a<c it. ·,.-ould. be made within t..':e nex::. •.;eek, he woul:! were .3683 -~-­:--- .:.:-. sor..e :;;; . ·•-:.. ,. .......

::ove:J:::er 29 1 !.?i9 3:J - 2 .·!..? .• :;::;::: :.~a: is ;a:-: o! a '"'tole paek~ge ar.d, .H r sa:,:, r.ex-: ~o,~eek I ·..till ;;e ge~:i::g ir. ::::m::~ :-t?.. '!'. r.;;;sr:: ;L::t. SP£.\."2::?.: (~-!.:'. 3i::'~";l.S) !or Te::.'l :;ov:l. :-:.."'.. .: . ;,:::;.;:

:he ~"l.ett:plo;t:rent lr:.s~rar.ce progra:;:::.e :cr:r.at in ar.:cu:rt. of .,..aeks e:.ceo:e::a, i:. t..l<tat C'Hice ::: have ceen <.:l':.h :;;-,e Ce;ar:.t:"en: an=. :~r. ;..;J.;ey sir.ce t.."le :·.me elect.i:::r.. :-:e have ;;a:. -:!own J..".C. C.iseusseC the .,.hole p::-ogri!l.!!:':'.e fc:: tne ne:c: t..'":.ree :o :.:.ve years r.d i:-.cl~cieC r.e ....

C.ecisic:-.s on l.!nem;loT=.en':. in.su:ra.r.ce. :·,·::e:-: he C:ces ar.C. c:-.1~· ~..R. '!'. :..t:s~: ! inCicat.ed a fir.al SU2?le..-.ent.ar-j :.::e fer Terra :;ova. can -present: t.cCay h~.s gove::-.:-.ent.'s posit.ior. a.nC. assure t.'le ....,or...:e:;:; of :.his ?:'O'li.::ce ·.or.e:e -:hey s:.anci '-Ji:..'; res~ec-=. o:o a:.y :'eC.uc:.i..on i:: t.,;.-.e U."ler.;ployt:".ent ir:su:-a.;.ce Zer.efi:.s as :.!-.ey ;>t.a:-.d :-. .::w, :1:::! ilecO:".d!.;, tell the ,..orke:'5 of this ?::ovl.nce ;.;here his goverr,n:ent stanC.S .. ::.-::-:. hon. !i.inis:.e=. hen. tr.emter says. ':'here are a lot of items :hat ha'le !;aen C..:.scussed •.o.:.~r. :tr. ;,u.e'f, all ir:.cl\.!Si'te. ;:..11 t."l.ese i!et".s put to~eehe:. i:.r:.r:.y 3685

Tape ::c. 1•~03 r;,.e :<on. :::e:""be: !or Ca.r::::cr.ear. hon. :.he :!inis:.er of Ceal::."l t1r. 2c:Jse). ..~ .. "':.C : sho1.!ld pre:a:-..C!e t.~l.e ~uestion '::.y ex;:lain.i!lg c..."lat for some u:-e no~oo" <:.'1.e C.enen.l P.OS?ita! in Ca.C:or.ea: has t:~een aC·.re:sely a:!fectec!. ty ;ollut.a."lts ':...'la'!. are being e:'..i. ':ted from :..1-:e :.o-...T. 's ::-.2al ,?lant. Jus;. last. '.oiS':!i<; a ;e:scn •Jert influential on t.."l.e Eoard cf Dir~ct.=~rs of the Carl::onear G"!neral. potential for a •rery serious heal:.'"'. itaz.ar:::: in t.ne ~eneral i:CS?i;.al t.~ere. :1y fi:st. c;:uesdor. to t.he tti::.ister i:;: is he a;.·are of t.::e enent of t..'".e 3695

:-to'-:ember 29, 1979 !•tR. :,!CD?.£5: have any opinion on the mat~er? :1R~ 5?£A.KE:R (Sim::o.sl: MR. HOUSE: Tape No. 1469 ~-:M - 1 The hon. !1ini.ster- of Heal~h. Mr. Spea~er, the member did w~ncion it to ~e a couple of days ago so r took ~~e ~pport~i:y :o look it up, and ! thank him !or t:la.k.ing :ne a•.,.a!:'e of ~"'le problem, beca•..:se i': is a specific problem tha'l!. I ,.,.ould not: ordinarily '!:;e aware of unless somebody was calling me a day or t•.,.o befo::e.

And :he !.J.ct i.s e..:,at there was the problem and there ;.;ere let:ters a.-:.d ~orrespondence to ~"'le 'epar~ent of Health from l9i7 and of course it was disc~ssed in conju."lceion wi~"l the Depct:nent of Consume:- Affairs and the E:nviron.lne:'l.t.

And :::ere has beer. i !.o: of ·>~cr:.t -=.one; :':::>r instar.ce, in t..'lat period of ':'>~O :tears ~hey have put. in a new scrul::C1.ng progr~~e and equ~;menc a~d they have built. a~ indoor seo~age !or ::~e oifal. !:J 19ii t.he::-e · ... e::e 3. lot. of ?::oble!:ls 1 'Je:;e less,a:'l.d last yea: '.:hey La:i one ?eriod ! -:.hink,when there . ..,.e:e a !.ot. o:': bad odours therg. T~.e fact is :.ha': :.he :-.osp!.cal ·.:as built, of course, afee: <:he !ish t:~eal ::lan~ •>~as ~"tere ar.d t!"<e ·;encilato:s !ac2 towards ~he p!.ant.

Ad!nini~t.ra~o:: is :sa:.isfied t...'iat they can li·;e wit.h ~he proOlem as it. exis~s new. :t ·..tas only o:'l.ce t.'lis yea::, she ar:ivised ~e, a.".d :.his is :!iss Locklar.d : t."i!l.~ - :1iss :ock.la.c.d o:- H:-s. t.o::k.lan:i - onl:r on::c this tear there ·..-a.;; a:ty proble:n.

We are still looking a:. one oehe:: t.:.Ung, Of course 1 •..te !:!"link /(OU know ,that we have to :C.eep :::onitori:tg i':. all t.he :.ime ar.d '!:..'".e Cons'.l..--ner ?..f!airs people are c'oing that, a.-.c we also are looki.:;.g at <:..'le possibility of ?Ut'l!.ing .a :ii:feren~ ki:-.d. of a f.:..!.:er sys :::e::t i!'\ the .:u.:- i.'1.ta.'<!:!. A sup~lenentz:y, :.he hon. ~e~e~ :or :a=!:onea:. :-'.?-. ~!COP-ES: 3687

November 29, 13i9 Tape No. 1469 :.1? .. :1GOP.ES: health problem, and that acknowledgement i:;. i:sel: ::o :ne is saci.sfying cha:. at:. leas"C the minister is prepazed at:. ~~is ?Oint. Xy concern now is ~~a:: there is, or could be, a serious health problez and ::hac ! believe, or I happen to believe .,.,ha::: tr.e ;r.ember of the 3oard of Directors is telling me, ~~at ~,ere is very serious concern on :.~e part of ~~e hospital. !3 ::he ~inist:.er prepared ::o say, is :;repa:ed co t:a.l<:e d::asti..-: ac::ior. in ::he event that ':."lere is a heal~t prctlem that occurs? :1.0..

S?SA:<E?. {Simms l : !1?... ~OUSE:: The hen. :1iniste!:' of Hea.!.::!J.. :1r. S?eake!:', -:..'le Depar~en-:. c: Heal~, has no:: =ecer~ined ~~at it is a heal~~ !J.azard. I do not think it is a heal~~ hazard there. r:. is a comml.!..'"li'::t proble:n., 3688

~love:r..Oe.r 29, l9i9 X:. House: meal pl~nt 1 ~.d o:: ccu.rse, the:€! a::(:: a lot of materials, bad cdou:s f.rcm i~, ~alcclorcus ~ater~3ls ~cn~~s in from practi:ally all ;arts or the Avalc~ ?e~~~sula. !t is, as : say, a geed, viable bd.ustty. 'de do not t.,_ink i.t is, a:: this :oir.t. in time, neither does Consumer Affairs th~ it is a iealth r~zar~, Cut we do think t.ha: it is a bit. of a :-.uisance and that. we ·,.n.!.l ;;;e ::onsuntly monit.cring and er.suring that ':.he odo•,;r is kept 1own, ar.C. that the plane can :u~ccion also. M:!..

SP.::.iUCER tsL'il'lS) The l-.cn. me.'":l.ber f;: Sor.av~st.a :-<o::t.h. MP.. ST!P..L!:-14: a.Do1.::~ the car,::en~ar s!::uat..:.on? Has !'.e. nad a:: Of?Cr':un:.t.:.t .. ..., get:. a:-. answer Y'=~? .'1?.. 5TI.RI.ISG: !1...~.

SPEAKER: 3onav.:.s~a ~:or':!":. :.m. :3TI?.LI~G: Since -..n-.:.t.l..."lg you -:!'.a~ :.e-::te: t:..his :-.c·.t has de·1eloped L'"l.':.O what. iML be a ::o.ajor problem of a di!'fe.rence !.:: :oncep': l:et.weer. :he Federal G;::,ve:-nnen-: and our Hewfound!.3::d ·Hay of l~!'~ ~ne way of Coir.s :hings. what. -:.hey ;.;ant to C::: at. :he feC.e.::al le:vel 3.nd whac i.s qo.:.ng :c happen wit!: our NeW:::::undland ·.-ay of l~fe a:-.d way :;f Co.:.;:g <:.~:.:-.cs? ~t=. Speaker, : :-.ave r.c.: taker: <:l':;.,e: ac:.~on. :::;:ear., ! ~·rB. =e::;eived, outside o! :.":.e {:::;;;, :r.e:::ber-'s i"lt~z-:;:a:.i.::m 3699

Novet:1her 2?, l9i3 PK - 2 Hr. Di..'tn: with him, ! i-:.ave received ::apresent:aticna !:om at:.he.: t:cn. me::'lbe:-s, and I have received some ot:her in!ormat:ion. But u:::.t:il I gee a :eply from the hen. ~. At:key, t:hat ~s. ~it:.h respect: =~ the request: h~. t:hen ~ do not !eel t:hat: ot~e: act:ion is necessary ~t: =~is poL'tt: in t:ime. MR. STiru.I~G: MR. SP::A..ICE:Et i.SI!,t.'15): for aonavis~ Nor~h. W.. S'r'I.?.L:~G: A supplemen~ry, ~x. Speak~. A final supplementary, :he l".cr:.. rr:embe: Thank you, :.!X.

Speaker. are t:.all<:ing a.i:out a ve:::y serious ;:robla.ttt of w.:.despre.ad ::or.cern, ar:d we do have peo?le •,/no have been told -:.c pay back as r::uc';-, 3.S Sl::, co::; people who are on unemplo~1nene i!".sura."tce, · ... ill he now agree e."lat: t:hi.:s i;; se:::ious enough t:.ha::. :-.e .:should :::ont:.lC't: one of 'n.i.s ccl:.eag-.z.es in Finance cr t:he Premier 'CO geo: suf£i:::ien~ :· .. mds set as!de so :.t";.a:. it:. is an appeal on behalf c!: our way o: life? ur.der<:ake e.o do t:hat:7 3690

!-l.:: •• S?EA.:..:E?.: (Sir.:..-.

s) and :-ta.npowe:. :-L~. oz:;::: Tape l4 71 sc - l eo the hen. ::-e::-.ber, r Co not t..':.;.:-Jo; i:. i3 necessar.t a:. :.."lis s:oin:: J.n ci~ ...:ntil ! get a :eply !rom the hen. H.:. At-key. When r Co get. a r~pl.y, I c..'link :hen action can be t~en. I a.ssu:m th.at. :,t:. A.tk.ey w::..ll gi-:e l':':e a reply t:o rr<:J t:.elegra.:n aarl:t next "Jeer... !!' : do not:. get. a :eply, :..'len I "Jill be i;,. cont:.aet .,...it:..'l hi::t directly. ne has !:lee:-. noe..i!ieC.. :..1-J.e federal Xin.ist.er cf ?"inance (:-tr. Crosbie) has been r.oti!ied a.. ... d :.'lings are unfold.i.''tg as ':..~ey should.

A suppler.en :arey, ~=. S;:ea.t!er. a !i;,.a.l 5\.l?Plement:.ar':', t.:.nless t.'1e :ten. <:.."I.e :net:".be: for =al.e Ver':.e - White Say (ar. ?.ideou:) '"'ishes to yield. The hen. t.'le ~~er for a~e \ier':.e - ;mi :e Bay. :!or t..'le !.t..ird.st:er cf Ccnsl.: ... ,·.e: ;..!!a.i::s anC. Envi:onmen:. (!-!:s. ~e...,ncck) .

The :n.inist:.e: is aware, l am s~re, t.ha:. at t:"le ?resent ~=a, ::".:.blic :-.ea::i~gs a::e bei:1g ~eld t:..'l:ouqnouc ce:~ain parts of Labrador so ~"tat :..~e pcbl~: in ~'lat. a:ea. t=>.igh't:. have an oppertuni'='f to present it..s v:.ews • .,.:.:.."t rega:d. t:.o t.."te envi::on::'lental it'!pact. of t:.."l.e K.i.t:.t..s-Mid1el.:.n 6:!-..·eiopeent:.. Could the ministe: tell :he House when she anticipates that. th.ose public h.ear:.r.gs :ni;ht be CO::':j?let.ed. and ·•:-.en t..'le ::tinister antic.:.pa.:.as rece.1.v:.ng ':..'1-e repo:t.? and E.nviromnent.

MRS • ~n"F.COR< The hen. t.he !iinister of consur.ar Af!ai::s Xr. Speaker, yes, t..'lere has been a scnedule set for t.."l.e public hearings. They are to com:-.e::ce on l:ece!:".Ce: 3::d. 3..'1d t."tey .,..ill be at. Ha.pp:• Valley • Gcose Bay on cecer:-.:::~er lr:! and 4:.."1, ae ~tcr't..':..te:st ?.iver on Oece:r.ber 5t:'l, at Ma.i<.kovik on December 6t!l a."''d 7th and at Postville on Decei:".ber 8t."l..

T~is is a :.cneatl.ve sc::1edule and if ...,e finC. :iuring ':.."i.C p::ocess of ':.:'.ese nea.r:.:-.q:s "::'.a':. :..'lis sc:-.ed•.!le C.oes not give suf!:i::ien-:. ti~, really ::a.nnot S::l'f just:. how soon :..::•ey 3691

~ovember 29, 1979 Tape 1471 EC - 2 ~ill Oe cocple:eci beca~e it will depend on :.:,e nur..be:s of pe:ople attend.ing a."l.d the a::ount of in!or.:o.ation l:hey are re.ques-;.ing. Buo:. I ·.to~d 3Zl.Y t."\at l?OSSi.l:lly ·..rit.".in :en d.ays should take care of the p~l~c hea:ings. And :.~en, of cou:se, we. have to wait for a :epor't. frcrn t.1.e ;hai::nan ef :..:,e board. and. t..'tat :-epor-:. eoones to t.~e :::inist:er. Then, when t.r.e ru.nist:er gets t..'1at re?Ort, it is evalua:eci am! :..'1en t.~e :n.inister ::akes a :epor.:. to Cabinet.. HR. R.!CEOt..'T: Mr. Speaker, a. s~ppletr.en:a:-y. 1-Ltt.

SPEA.:<.::?.: (Simms) for aa.ie Ve:-te - W1:.i ~e Say. t..1.e minister has given us :-eally brir:.gs out t.1.e crunch of t.'te problem.

T!'le ::oc--?ar.y, r u."l.ders"":and, in t.'tis environ:.ent.al i~ac"": stat.=::· .. .:H·.:., :na.-..es t:.--:e following s:ater..er.::.: "'r':.e agree::ler.t" - t.'1e agreemen:. to ciev~lop, t.":.at. is, to go a..'"lead and :iavelop t."le C.e?QSit:S "The a.greement is sul:lject to gove:::n.tre.::."C a:1d reg..Uator..: approvals ~ot."l in C:anaCa a:-.c. :ll.ir.oi.s a."1ci Z.eir.g a;::le t-o success :''.:.lly r.e;ot.!..a.:.e :..'-te ::ecessa.:y ::e:.a.i.led a.;ree~er.'":s p::..:::r :.c :.."le 3692

s:, - l ~ot ;o ateaa a~ all: an .:.ssue? 36S3

:'<!pe :;o. 1..;72 :i:e for one quick :;.:.:.es<:.icn. :·IR. 3. :~'EA.?..Y: of Consu:::er Ai!airs a.r.C. E.:-.viron::::ene, 3i:. ':he ::ewfou::.C:la::C p.she~en food a.r.d ;Ulied ?torke:s :Jn.lon nas ::.ade some 'le:J se:i.=us acc::.sat:ions concerning '=.:1.::! ;:ost: of ::.i•rir:.g in Labrador il.."l.d. bas ::tade ::e,?::~sent.;;.e.!.on to the l:'l.inis<:.er's C.epa:t=.e."l: ':.o have an L"\.Vest:iqation, a full-tled~<;d ac<:.ion, • ... ·:-.at ki::.d of ac:icn a::d ·.;:1en 'He ::an ex;:cc': a ::epo::':. or: ::. ... is :.al:::JC.or ar.C ~ere .J.re ::e:':..lin peo;.le up th~?:::e ,....::o are c;:,e:kir.q -:.::::: 3694

:,;over!::l:!r 29, 19 i9 7ai?e .lc. l~i3 and if there !.5 a s:..:;ni!icant ci.i!!erenc:e, t..'1en ',,;e will try ':.o cleter:nine '.;hat :..'l.at cli!!erence is, whether i':. is :e available eo the people in Labrador. ~m.

SPEAK£?,: (SI:' .. '1S) Orcie r, please! '!!le tir.e for Ciral Questions has ,:xpi:~cL P~£SE:1TI!-iG PETIT!::~s The hen. l'!'.er.ber for the Strait. o! 3elle !~le. :-tR. ;: • R:.:CERTS: FOSit.ion as I sta."\c! tc ;?resent a ?ef:.ition !or a Cist=ict: ot:.. ... er :..>:a:. tr.e one '...-hich I rppreser.t in t.."le i':ouse of Asse:-bl:f. :::t. is not ;.c.?ro;e: under e.e rules, of coursi:o, but i::. i::; unusual. 'les':.e:::a:l atte=:tcon a com:-.itt:ee of citizens from tr.e cot:".mt:l".ity cf C:larke' s Sea-::"• in tJ;e Cist.ric: of fo:t Ce UravE c~r.e to st:::e :re ar.C. askef =.e <:o presen::. ::...'1~ petition.

I ga:re notice :o !l'Y her .. f=ie!".;i, :.:-.e rer.ber for ?crt. Ce ~:a•:e Cist:ric:. (!!r. ccllir.s) ::::at I wculC. t-e :!!::l.ng so. : 3en:. hit:~ a not::e he •.•culd wish to na\.-e J..t. I de :-.ct. t...'tink h.a is !'..lssy. ::? .. not. 1buc t.'"le COtt:.i.:.tee cert.ainly felt that t.ne ·..;ould not =:.e fu.ss7 a.-.cl t:.:.'tat is why t..l-;.ey" took t."l.e •mt.:Sual step of cor.i!l~ to ~e on the other siC.e of the Eo use. the met:'.be: 'l:he peti:.ion is signee. :.y 373 citizens o:!' tile community cf Clarke's 3each.

I Co not J:.,ow t:.he ?O?ulat.ion of "Che ::or:.unity of Clarke~s Seac.'l precisel7 1 bu':. I would tre.:l<:c:e, :'..!". S?eaker, :.."tat :l" . .:!.t is a ,,ery lar;e proportion ,possitl;t ;;;o pe= cent. to 50 ;:er cent. of :..!le adult j:)Cpulat:.ion of t.hat. cc:r.:r:cr..it.y. The ~:ayer of :he ;:eci:..i.cn, ! t.."lir.k, :-!.r. Spea.ker, St,t.s fc~"1 qui-:.e succ.i..r.c:.ly and clearly the ;;:u:pose a.nC. t."l.e ir.ter..t. of :..1.,:;, s:eo~le ·..::-.o S!.<;r.e:! l'::. Per:t.1ps I cculC be pet"':l"itt.ed to re<l.d. it. in presenting :..'le pe':.!.t..:.c:-.. 3695

Nove.tr.Oer 23 1 l9'i9 Tape :.ro. 1473 Conce~~ion Bay Hlghway ~h=o~gh Clarke's aeac~. and it says, "~'hereas we :.he unCe;:signed .,.,.ere not. suificient.ly inf<:~r':led about. ;)W - 2 t:he ::ouncil' s - and that the ::ouncil of the town of Cla.:-ke' s Seac!'l - the council's ex~enclecl affort:.s t.o have a t.."'l..r.ae: lane highway pass direc~ly through ~~e cene;:e of our ~cwn, the Wlt!'lholding of which iniormaeion acco~~ts for ~~e lateness of this protest.: and

whereas ,.,.e are in t.ot:.al Cisagreemen:. ·,.i':h :his projec::. whi:::-. is mos't :::ert.ainl.y ~tOT" - and the wot'd 'not.' appea:s in capital le:.-;e:s - "NC'I''' i.n our eseimation in ehe ~esc .:.nt.erests o:: the to·..m cf Clarke's Beach: and

whereas ehe c;:eat.ion of a et:ee lane d.:-ive ~~=ough ~~is a;:ea is det.=i~nt.al :o ~e safety of pedeser.:.ans ;o1~; eo places of busin~ss ~~ci ?~lie builCings ~here; and wher~as t.he ::rea~io~ of a third lana, be i-=. a hol.dir..q la:".e or ':)~he:",.,.:.se, the ~ain h.i;h•J~ays fr:::n ':he acces.i .:-oads of C!.a.:-:-:e's Eeach; a::.i

whereas ot:.er tcwn ccu .. cils, Ha:bcur Grace ·3696

November 29, 1379 Tape No. 1474 ~~ - l :.,1'),. RCSE?.TS: wi::.": tile safe-;7 of their own citizer.s and ha•Je :.:-.erefo::e pr:ov.:.=ed parking facilities ar.d '..ta1%s for ;eC.est:r i3.ns and :hey are SO!' concerned- aqain the word NCT !.n ca?i!:al let:~r=- ?:i:narily '.4i':.h the smooth flow of ~rough traffic, be it clearl7 understood that. we stand in opposition to all effor1:.s to pr::~ceed •,;i:..l<t >:!'.is ;?rojec: as planned.

And ~e affix our names to ~1is petition strongly urging Council, ar,p ~e government depar~~nts involved, to have :he highways so :na.rk~C. as ::o preserve t.he la:1e no'..t used :or Sout.l<t bound :.:attic as an area tor park~ng ~d Fedestria~ traffic lane highway as before.'' petition nas been signed by nearly 4C~ c1tizens of =~e :o~ of Clarke's E.ea::h. :: ~now '::!'te a:ea ::airl~· \o'ell. :•ta.r.y hen. :!err..bers through the zomm~i-;:y. and got: :10 sa-:.is:action. ':" gather ~'1ey r.ave met •..ti':h :.'1e Mir".iSt:er to see the Preml.er ar.d had absolutely no suc::ess at all in ar:::-2r.c;.:..::g ar. interview ~i::.~ ~1e ?renier to ?resen-;: '::heir :cncer~s ::o hi~.

I know ";hey speak !or ~e people who signed e::u.s ?et!.tior., obviously vie~ this matter as one of ;rea-;: serious~ess, o: great i~port, sr~ of great urgency. As ! underst:ar.d 1 ';.he D~par~ent c: Tra~spor~ation crews a.re in :..1e area >:oday laying :.'1e :ellot..t lines; i:~ !ac-:., t.'1ey ~ere :..'ler~ ::esterday ar:d ~-.e d.ay be:ore, anC. -;:he people c.1me o'..!t ancl bloc~ed ':he::-., stood in fran':: of -;:he:n, a:-.:i ':!:e mer-. ·"'er:-:. a•.;a~· and did not: ?res s ai':.ead ·...-i :h t."le work. I would ask that the ?e'::ition =e .3697

November 29, 1979 Tape !To. l4i4 !'iM - 2 :.l.R.

ROBERTS: This is a provincia! highway we are speaking o:. ! woul~ hope, Sir, t."le minister, a."ld t.."le :nember-a!"'d let r.:e say ::.'"Ia:. :. have no desire :o embarrass t.1e oe~~er, :. realize this is not sor.~t..~ing calculated to ~in brownie points from him :or ~~. :ue I am responding ~o a request made to me by t..~ese ?eople, ar.C ehey have consi~ered e~eir request: and upon consideraeion of it felt this '"'as :;,.e ~ay ':.hey •.taneed ~is petiti:m to cor.te ':o ':.he House . . ,..ill respond to t.h.is per.i:ior.. ! think l.t .lS a reasonai:;le request :rom what ! k.."1ow of it.

And ! 'lencure to say :h.at i:' there is :10 positive response, ar.d i:: at some poi:-.:. we are so ::.nfor':.\.!.!'l.a:e as to have an accident in which somebody is hure, or even idlled, t:."'.en, £2r, t.."lat will be much too lace :o act then. I thin)( that what. t."''e depar<::r.ent pr~posed to do, as ! uncle:stand it:, is eho.!'oughl:; u..~reasona.bl~. : think. it would be eminen't.lt' more ~ou..-:d, >!.r. Speaf;e.::-, if t:he -:!epa.t"':.":l.en":. •.tould do as t:he pet.it.ione.::s request and ca.::-::-1 on Wl.t:h the roaC. petit:ion. -r pre.sent: tl".e ?et:i':.i.or:, Sir.

The!'e being ::o pages :;:, present it:,Ou!: I P:"ese:-.t: it ani-way. SC.'1.E f.ON, !-11:''1BEP.S : Hear, hear! MR. S?~KER (Sir.~s~ The hon. :::em!::e:- !o:- ?or-:. de S.::ave. :.m.. C:JL:.INS: t:he r:~e~er fer t!:e St::-a.:.-:. of Belle i:sle (:1:::. Robe:=:tsl f:;,r ;:.ving oc prior notice of t.."le petition. ! was quite a·.;are -:Jf -.:he :;:et:it!.on and 'the coneents of it a.."ld ! have done quit.e a bit: of research into :his matter ova:: the last: t.hree or !cur ~nt:hs. There are a couple of points I would like to tt:ake here.

They sa:r in t.'1ei.r petit:ion that ':.hey have not :,een inior.::eci of the Cor.:rn.it':ee. They '"'ere ·rerf lax i:'l. w"l.is :t".at':.er. The firs-.: :-equest s.lx years at;o and t:..'ley have lef"t: i ':. •.:.r.-:11 -.:h.e las':. :nir.ut.e, tmti.l t!'.a pavement. ·,.;as :,ei:-.g laid, before the'! made any mocion o:- haC a:;.y lnpu-.: 3698

nove~ber 29, 1979 Tape No. 1~74 MR. COLLINS : into ~t or even were concerr.ed as to ~hat was going down there. How they can say ~~at a holding l~~e is hazardous ~hen ! counted twenty-seven holding lanes coming in the Kenmoune Road ~~is afternoon, and they say one ~,era would .be a hazard to the people, ! :;annat agree .,.i:.'-1. it. I have been meeting wi:., Council, mt - 3 We have had !our separate meetings concerning ~,is ~tter, strictly this :r.ateer 1 and Council .J..::.a in full support., unani:::ously 1 f•.JllJ' supportive of ~~is :rave. So I do not understand why the Co~tte~ is petitioning against it.

I.-:' :-..,ere ,..as more checking Cone into .i.t., :: t.hink e::.ere would '::e an ulterior mot.ive as -:.o why -.:hey do not ·.o~ant ~is lane there. And I am afraid I have to agree with Co~~cil ar.d the Depar-:::ent of Transpor':aticn, 'liho surveyed :.his, 3.nd th.e satee.y people who surveyed i~. Eve:-yone has come <;.o the agreemer.e. that t:.his would be a great:. help to keep t.l-te t1cw of t:.raf.:ic golng th.ro•1gh Clarke's Beach 3...'ld t.'"le.re ~s :-to sa!e:•; h3.:a.r:= i=wolved. 3c ! se.and in -::.y supper!: of :-..'"le Council on this :r..at':.e.r and t.'-:.e Depa.r-c."'ner.t of ':'ransportat.ion.

T!'lar.k 'JC'.:.. 3699

Noveober 29, ~973 MR. ~lA.RSHAU.: read.L"l.gs today. Ta~e !lo. l474 CRDE?.S Of TP.E DA:£! The hon. ?residen~ of ~he Cour.cil. Motion ~. W: have -:.'1e first:. ~~tion, ~,e hon. ?:esident ~i Treasury Soard to int.rod'.lce a bill, "An Act. To Amend !he :.ter.We:s Of The House Of Assembly (Reti::ir.g AlL:Jwances ; Act,~ c:arrieC.. (Bill no. 6a l On mot.ion, Bill tlo. 63 read a first. time, ordered read a se.:cnd t.i:-.e on tcmorrow. 3700

~over-be:- 2'?, 1979 ':'ape :-:o. 1475 A.H-1 :1ot.ion, :.1-:e hen. t±:e :·ti:tisee:- of Indc.striai :evelopr::er.t to i:t<:::cduc~ a ::i.!.l, ''.t..n Act ':o R:l~.:y, Conti::": A.."''d Burgee :E'ish !ndust:"ies Limited Ar.C Ct.,.ers," ca.=ried. (3ill :<o. 7:) On :n.otion, 3::..11 :;o, n :-2ad a first t~e ordered reaC a second ti~e en toecrrow. Mof":ion, t.~e !len. t..\;e :-tin is t:er of Jus't.ica to in::oduce a !::ill,";..-. Act. To A:::end The Cc~par.ics Act,'' (3ill :io, 7J) On ~ctio.r., E.:.ll ~:o. 73 read .:1 !irst ti=.e,ord~red read a S:!cond ti~e ~n tc=.crrcw.

On mcticn ~~at t~e r.ouse resolve itself into a Co=~ittee of ~'le W~ole f.ouse on ei!l Sa, Mr. Spe~er, le::e <:.'le Chai.:. ~L.t\.ROBE?..':'S: :Joes t . .'·.e clerk rear:! '!..~e r:.it!.e or is it in crder f:r c:e to say a ..,-or: or t:.•o as a suggest.ic:1.i' : si:::ply \."ant to suggest.,i:! my lear.:ed f::ienC. t.l,e Goverr..m~nt: :~ou.se ~ave on occasion in t.r.e pas~ taker. sections ~y ;:cu.p~ngs i~st:eaci c: ~y asking ~~e clerk eo call each one.

I have s;cker. t.c cr.e c:: two of :ny colleagues ar:.d ! t:.."lir.k .,..e will be p:epared,if reu .,...anteC to,say in decades, in groups of ten, we ..... culd ~e prepared - A!l ECN .~'-!BER: Division::;. If I :~.ay - ! ~ nee sure I wouli ~gree t.c have it: dcne !::: c.:.visi::~ns. !:o. ':!-.e. -=.ivisions a.:-e verJ la:;~. I e::. sor~;. I woul~ not agree tc ~.at. 3701

!Tover..l:er 29, 1?79 :'af:e ~lo. !.475 ;..};-2 :·!?., ?.:22?:'S: Sott.e of t..;te Ci. visicn.s , :::. O.ai.::tr a~, ha•te fif~ s~c':ions i~ ':.~er ar.C t.J:-.at. ·.toulC. =:ear. - ':leer'! are cnly ':e=:. cr i::. - . will go just as tr-Jickly. ·,;c should spend s:c=e ':.l.l':'<C on !.~;isla tier.. '!':-:e ~ouse is r.ct s~ply a sausage processi~g =~chine. r ~,cw ~y !earne~ frienc! would agree .... i t:t ::!e. I t."link t .• 'le way to do it, we ::an do it in ~:ens :Cut perhaps ....-e can .:neve, fo= insta.~ce,',.ohen ..,.e ge-:: int.o i-: now ;resently,t."le Ccr::ait.-:ee, t..,e first. amenC::::ent t:."lat! see is o:-te i-:1

Section 10. amend.":!en e is can I gee ~~e hen. Qa~ber's at.ter.::.icn? for insta::ce, 3ect.icn l'J: ':·:!! co1.:l~ go i..n !:locks of t.en but per!'la;;s I could :::eve t.~.at .:tou kne-w, Sec::icn l -:o 9 ?ass and -.:he:-. you can call Sec-:.ion 10 a~d ·.;e .... :...:.!. get in ':.'len to :l":e ~enC.:en:::., 5u-; I will Co i~ in ~locks of te~. ~P., ?O:!ERTS: Sure.

Ckay, M_-o •• ?.08 E:F.':'S : And if .,...e sr:ould. :r:.iss an a:::en:::.en:::., obviously leave to revert. ....-ill be: given. ·..;'! :nay not. like 't..":e bill bl..:t. '-"e are not going t.o !::e t!".ac. :u.:::.-picke~·. !!..'=' •• ?,CE£?':'5: ! ·,.oonder if i:::. WCI.!ld ~xped.i:e could e.:.e r:.u:::t:e: ! see ':..~e :r.in.ist.e: is fulfilling :::.r.e !•..:.'ic~ons of apage. I t.,_a.."lk t..~e :=~.inis<:er z:.n.d r 'Nould say :hat he is net nearly as efficient ncr nearl':' a.s at<:ractive as :::..'".e pages, A:1 HO:l.HE!-t!!ER: Co we have copies? MR.RCBER'!'S: I have or.e cop)'. 3702

:love:;.ber 2.9, 1979 1 + ~- .. ~/0 l::C - 1. Shall clauses one :.r..rotlqn nine ce.::::y? ~3.. STI?.:.I!iG: ':he h.on. the ~eo.ber for aona.vi:tta No::t.1. • .'1R. ST!?.LI:~~: !1::. Chaicr.an 1 in clause two, as :: ::n.C.ers -=ar.:i i:, where it sets out ~~e defini~on, ~~ere is no definieio~ of a city, ~d yet, when ·.,.e get eo S!:!c:'tion 309 i::1. talking a;:out t..1.e ancilia.-ooy powers of a regional gow=nmen:,

Section JJ9 (:) (ll (

a) in effect., . .,.i~-.. the approval of Cabinet ~,e regional governr.ent may "acquire ~~y of ~~e !ixed asse:.s of ~1.e :'lunicipalities and ci:ies necessa:y for ~~e 1!Xer::ise of tile powers of t..'-le reqional ec·mc:il, wit: . ."1out COC1Pensation ~u:: inclucii.ng ;..-..e ass:..::p:.ion of t.he liabilities a.nd obliga:.ions associated <~.l.+:.."t o:.':.ese a.sset.S;'' : a:n no:. a lawyer, bu-:. ?resu.."'ta.bly, si::.ce you have ;iefi:leC. cou.~cils a.."lcl cotrr.ur.ity ::c.:..~cils, :he c.i:.y should also be defined in :hat lis:. o! ~fini-:.ions.

The hon. :.."le !1inist.er of :·tuni:ipal r.f!ai:s and Housing. !1 .. ~. ::, "tii~!::SO?.: reference ~ a city woulC refer :o ci-:.ies de!ined ~der ~~e :i~J ot 5~. :c~n's Act or -:..."le c.:.:.: of Corner Srock Ac~. th.a hen. t-...._e :r.e:::ber !or t:.'le .5t.rai-:. of Selle Isle, Thank you. !n ot.'ler words 1 ~as l.t:. !ol.l.::r .. · ~"len 1 Hr, Chairma:. 1 t:•a.t t.'le governeent. USl.r.g t.'le po;o~r '.!.•de: - Secti.c:-. JOS was it? Regional co~cil.

HR. ?.OSE?.':S 309 (2) could aut..'1.ori::e - Lo!t. ~ assc.:te a. regional council ~o~ere to be crea:.ed for, say 1 tile Hort:.hea3t r.valon area - and I would ~"link it a fair sugqes:.ion t..~at. t.~a: is a li~ely area in res?ect:. of which a regional cot.:.:1cil :nig:o:. be created - -:..'-lat. using t:..".e power cor-.fe=:ed ~der 5ect:.ion 309 {2) (

a) and (

b) t."lat :.."le Cabinet. can =ake ~~ order affecting t.."le cit'! of s::., .John's a.nd :.."le ci-:.y o! Corne= Srock even- you ~now, ~'lat l.S a quest.~on. i!, in fact., it.=~~. w~~~'l is wna::. :..'i.e :ninist:.er seer-s t.O in-.;?ly and '..rha::. t.'1e ac:. '..rould seem to a•.:t."to::ize, 3703

tlove:.ber :29, 1979 MR. ?CEE?.TS: Tape , .-~ .... ;Q EC - 2 t;,."len, o! course, t.:.1.a~ imcc::Y.s i:: 3. cocked hac ~~e oinister's s~ate~enc on seconC readi~g ~~at ~~is bil! Cid no~ a!fec~ ~"le city of ~t. ~ohn's and ~e ci~/ o! =orne: 3:ook, because in fact o:..1.is l;iill, if aclopt.eci, would give t..~e Ca.Oinet t..-:.e power t:o wipe out tile cit:/ of St. John's and tb,e Cl.ty of Corner Brooi< i.."t everrt.1.ing except natr.e, and ':..~at. 12.y be a reC:uc~io ad a.Zlsur:iu.'rt, or whatever ~1.a~ par~cular porase is, Out ie is cer~ainly no~ an i:nposs~iliey.

Md, o! cou:se, : have long ~ad ::.e theory that if tne governrtent. Co not need powers in leg:.sla:.;.on, ':..'ley ought no:: to tai=.e t!'l.em.

So I raise t:he point \••it.'t t."l.e minister ar:.d if, ~n fa::~. it .:..s not the gcve:r:.:::e::.t's i:"lten':ion :o af!ec: :..~.e city of ~t • .:co--.'s hit:~. at :tis word, of course - t..'1en surely t.he act oug!\'": '":0 be a::".er.C.e~ could. !:::e used to c:-ea-:e a regional council which wo.:ld ha~..-e ~~e powe:- Sa::ion JJ9 and crea:ing ~ region ~~d giving ~~a~ reg~onal governmen~ ';he power eo acqw.re :.."le ~sets .,.,i:!-.out. ::ot:pensation - ':.,_a: Cces =-.ct. eo use regior.al services, :o assess :.u.~ic:.:;:ali':ies ~,.c. cities. You know, t..'1at is ':.he whole point of it.

A."ld r :..":ir .. < :hat is a ver; ser~ous fla·.; in t.1.e whol<!: bill and i:. is on~! ""hi.ch, in t:.~e 'Jie"" cf myself a::.d a we t..,.ink it. really goes to ~'le heart of ':.he ;over~~nt's er.:.ire ?Ositio~.

And if, in fact, ':..,.e bill says ,,..hat '"'e fe:ar it i':'oeat:s, tr.en, Sir, : ...,cul.d. vem:.u:e :o say <;.':at :.,.e ::irUster's state:"le.c.t on se:ond reac..i.ng is :1.ct. correct and the House has ~een unCer a misa?prehension on se=onci reaCin~ second re~ciing relateci :.o, of couzsa, all :..~e general provi~ions c: :.~a ac::::, :."l.a: :.'<is act does not. cover the cit.y of St. :oM's as i.:. re:.aees 3704

~!? ... 1. Ht.:~OEO?.: ... t;. is a :egi~:tal (~na.I!Cii;.le). (Inaudible) gene:al. !t is one o! t!-:.e r;.air-. :;lreceC.ents. :,:P... N .;.,r:u:::sc:a: clacse is aecu=a:e, he implies 3705

Nov~~er 29, :979 Tape 1477 ?K - - !1r. Wi.."ldsor: tha.t. we ::auld '..'if:e out <:he c:::y. ~hat. is hardly so, Pecause :.he Act. st.ates very ::learly the regional ;o•.;e::s that :::ay !:e C.esigr.a:.ed to a regiunal council. MR. aQSERTS: r sa!.d ·.,ipe it out. in eve::y:hing ::::.!t r~e, arA <:here will be precious little left. No, no. We could net J::ecause you 'o<iOUlC. only take over regional facilities. HF.. ?DEER':'S: Yes, a:;.d. a regional !'aci.li:.:; is .,...t!a:.? cou.l:! the rn.L'1is<:e:: t.ell ·.,:,s, :-t.r. Cha!..:=.an, 'olha-:. a ::egl.cnal :acility is? :·t?.. W!~'"DSO?.: quite clearly ~'\

Section 305. MR. RCEERTS: Yes, ::: know. care t:.o :.ali:. a!::lout . .,.hat t:hey are? Because, of cc~se, seceion 305, &. Chair::r.a:~., as the :ninister •.,.ill r.ave to adrnit,!.ea.ves it: la:-ge!.y i.'l t:he eye of the .beholde!.", and the beholder .!.n :.!:.is case .is :::.o:e C.a:Cir.a::, o:;:erat.i.cn of .::egiona1 - and l.t:. uses t:.he. -...-or::i "region,:.l~' so ·.;e go back ::o ::he cla'.lse :;ow ·;::;eiore ::he C::mmi::t.ee. You.:: fionour way l:::e wonde:-:.ng wi'.et.he.r all of :..'lis is J:egional. ?.i.ghe? 'rihe::ne.!:" a.:.l ;:,£ this is relevan::. Well 1 t!-,e '.o'Or::!

":-eg:.?n" .3-ppears e!;:::ughout: th.is. ~o·...- '"'hat:. i3 a region? A :-egion is sctr.e::;,.i:~.g incor;:ora:.eC. ;.:..-,der this Ac:. as a region. gcve::n:nent sat· is a regJ.on. And r would say to che ti..•uster t.:tat:. it:. is not impossible t.hat. t~e sovereign, indeper~ent: ~unicipality of the local improveme.'l't discict of Hogan's ?or.d could be decla!'ed a region under the powe=s of this bill. you k!1ow. Now :!:a:: may sound absurd, but I ...,ill t.ell you legally it locks :ne ::o as if tha:. is ;ossible.

And while ! do :;ot L<te~d :.o be the be all ~'\::i ::ne en::i all cf ::~e Bar, ! pret.e::C. t.o have Cl!" hoid r.l:f$el£ out: :;o ru·..-e :! des::-ee ..... c:~:::pet:ence' 3706

Nove.m.ber 29, 1979 Tape 1~77 PK - 2 !1r. Eober~s: ;reat or s::all. And, you ~now, ~e ~culd h~ve .1 regional goverr.ment t::at: ::ould just wi;;e out. the ci~y o:: s:.. John's ~,a the city of Corner arook. I have now driven ~he ~is~er fro~ the C~ittee. ! clo not know what that ~eans, but ~not going eo wait here, you ~ow, while the minister does us the discourtesy to leave. : ~ve ~~e Commit:.ee adjourn, ~~. :hair=an, unti.l the minister re!:'.u:ns <:o put his bill th=ough Cott'r.lit:.tee. ill!. ROBERTS: !ffi. Y.ARSHALL: pro~ly gene to - MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chair:na.n, on ~1.at. motion.

Adjourn the debate. ! think the ~~n. minister, ! thin~, has '<Jel11 maybe ::e is, bu~ he :iii :-'.oc - ::·cu know, let us wait a :ninute or two then - Yes,sure. M..~. ?.CBER'IS: - because I do ::.ot. t:!'link he :.~ean:. a."'.y discou.rees:r but he went: and he is gor:.e. No. I ~~ quite sure he did not. ~. ROBERTS: ~ell, I ~ill wit:hd:a~ ~y motion by leave and ',.j'e '.;"ill JUS~ s-:~:-.d a..=ou...-'ld for a r::inute u..."ltil the mi."'.is:e.= gets r.ere a::.d can d.eal '..;"ith the mat:.t:.er, because r t!unk it .:..s a '-1ery serious ~at:.";er L"ldeed, ar.d r a.t:t :lot pet:t:.l..:og;J.n;.

I mean,: am ?tepared,a:-~ a ::.umber of :ty :::olleaq".J.es are ;orepared,! ::.l'!.i."!.k, to :-.ave sorre consiCeraL::le debate on this ?a.=t:.icular ?a:t of it, because this, Sir, is a very important :::at:te.=. Now the tr~nis~~ may well ~Ave wished to consult, I think, we r~ve juse d=iven a garbage cart right throuqh the bill, and ! expect the mL"'.iste= might want tc have a ~rd, =~~ ! think we are going :.o need ~~er~~ents. Here is the minister no;.,·. Can e::.e minist:er spea~ to ':he ,;;oint that: ! just raised? r men, r ·..-ill say it agai::. for h~.

The d~iini:icr:., the ;oowe.=s of regional goverr~~ent 3707

Nov~~er 29, 1979 ':'ape 1477 ?K - .3 AN HCN, 11E..'1EER: Yes. Ma. ROBEP..TS: That is fine. That l.S duck soup. That is ducky. Well ':.he.'t, what is the · .. ·crd "regional"? Well "regional" is not defined. The dra!tsperson has not seen !it. to give us a definition of the word "regional". the adject.ive. But. the draftsperson or persons, t.he dra.f't.S people if there is such a phrase, have given us a de!inition of the noun from which the adJec-:.ive .t.s de:ived.. And the de!i..'tition of the noun is !ou.-:.d, :-1=.

ChaL~n. in the very clause before the CCr::nl.-:.tet! ~o,,;, seceicr. 2 ~:n) "regl.on mear.s .in area incorporat.eC. under this Act as a region." ~ow that is like the f3:X•.!S definition of l.:..."t'.nograp!-.y ar~ oceanlogy, and I knew ~~e ~"liSter appr~ciates the definition, but f~r the benefit of those •.o~ho do r.ot., an ccear.cgrat:her is a !resr-..... at..:!"- I am sorry, ! saltwa~er lir~ologis~ , arA a l~ologis~ is a frestwater cceanograj;her.

So, you know, this bill, I say aga~ to the ::i.:aste.:-, ;..1.vt;s ~o the Cabinet, not to the House- it ::l.oes not. give it. to the Hou;;e,·.,;e have ::.ae; ;:ower- ';:ut. gives ':O the Cabinet the fO•.,re.::: tc tc · .. ·ipe out. in everything bu~ r'.a:::e, the city of 5t. JoP~'s and ~~e city of Corner 3rcok. shakes his head. I tell him that shaking his head is not good e..'touqh. He r~s got to FUt forth so~e cogent and l~cid reasons. I tell hL~ th.a t fewer is thee.

The Cabinet may declare a =~;ion, ar~ a reg.1.on could be small as the ~unicipalit.y of Hogan's ?ond, it has got about 110 Cod-fearing, loyal, taxpaying citizens in it; they pay their taxes as assessed aR. CARTE?.: The House l':.as ':he power !~. 8-CEER::::s: r a.':'l sorry? ."!R. J. C:A..:t.TE?.: This House rAs the ~Qwer to do ~~is. !-!R. ?.OSERTS: '!" agree completel:l ;.;;,.:.h :::y friend for 3~ • .John's ~or-:.h D·t::. Ca:te.r), this House has tl'-.a-:. ;ower. :::•:ery 3708

November :9, 1979 Tape l ·-­..... ,I ?K - 4 !-'.r. Ro.ber!.s: municipali~y L~ this Pr~vi~ca is, ~o use a ter:: t:hac many people take :;f!ense wi':.h but is correc-: a;-.d not t:ea."lt: to be of!'ensive, every ttu.."li:~e;alit:,.• !.s ':.he creao:.u.re it: law of this House; And this Hous~ has the powe: to give to the t:inister the power he is asking. I mean 1 I could not contend tha~ the bill is ultra vires o:;o this House, r would no~ do cha-:., but: r say tr.e bill ~s wrong in principle. ~"l.d this =lause is ~Tong.

We are r.ot ta.lki..'19' about the principle of the bill atty more, we are ta.lki:1g a.Ccu:c clause i 2) • aut I say to the minister or to -:;he sencl.e:na.n fo:: St. Jch."'l.'s Nor-:h (~!r. C:art:er) o:.r.at :..'l.is b.:.ll. g1.-.:es eo t:he Cabinet <:.he power to declare the community of ~egan's Pond, l!O ?eople, a re;ion, nothL"'l.g L"'l. here saying it is not. ~he cit:y of St.. John's a region. It could declare the provi.sior. ,~f 3709

Novereber Z9, 1979 Tape 1476 sn - XR. F.03E?.':'S: ga:bage collec::..!.cn servi:::es ·.tit..'~in ~~e :::i:y of St. John 1 s a regional service. ~~e ~nist.e: shakes iis head, l:lue I say to ~.i:t, point. :::e out -:l'.e

section that li.."'ti.~ it., point :r.~e O'.lt t.."le wo:ds t:.hat. li::U.t. it., point o.e out. :.'1e pro• .. ision o: this act 'Jhe:'e ::: am wrong. I :nea."l, ! will gladly a!!:r.it. ! ~wrong i! ! <en ·,..trcng, .J.."ld t.'1a: h.as Ceen k."'lOWl< m happen, t.oo. "f will now rield eo the mir.ist.er ant! hear what. he has t.O say Cecause .,..e ca.."l corr.e ba::.:.; at i:. anC. ..,.e will, de?ene.ir.: on what he says. The point is I woulC like t.o cor=e=~ '":'lat. t..":.e hon. gen:let:".an sa.ici on t..~~ collec-:.!.on o:! garbage.

Section ~SS clearly st.at.e!i, 1 ~he operation of regional soliC. ;,;aste ::iis;.osal 3it.es~ 1 not collection !acili ties. !: Casl.gna::.es ..,a:er 3U?pl:s· sys::er.s, not Cistri:u:...:.on systems; i: designates sewe:age disposal sys~e~5, r~: collection sys~rns. rn o~~er ~orCs, you are :alking acout. !acil~~ies ~•a~ may be opera:ed on a regional basis bu~ ~ot ~s~r~ution sys:e~~ wi~~in a co~ur.~~y. !1?.. ?.CBE:?.'!'S: and rea:!, 'incl:.:ding a.."l"f facilities designa-:e':! in ':.i1e or::e: as reg.:..o~a1 !acilJ. ties' ? :-tr .. n:::::: Yes. !1? •• ~6.S?.TS: And ~~en :ead Sec~ion E. t..'le minister, :"'.r. C.'1air::ta.'1, ""Ould care :.o read s6-sec~icn {

t) o! t:1a':.

Section 305 ~o '"hi:.:,. ~e rgfe:s, i~ :a..l.k.s of ::egional f:Oll.ce serv:.ces, a.:::Qula.nce se:-.. ices, a."limal and dog con:ro1. a."l.c! "ot..'ler siP..J.lar s.arvic'!s wit.1-;.in t.l1e region as re.ay be prescribed." 3y whom? By our friend, ::.e Cabinet again. And the Cabinet. could easily, you know, to use my exaJ:lPla, could easily under t..'1at. power declare t.."le =ollection of gar.::age eo be a regional responsibility. ccnfusa :;,...o t..'1ir.gs. ! Co ."l.o~ t,;"'link t..'1e :::U.niste:: is trying ~o !1co&..:i:-.l:. us a."'ld ::: do not t.'1.ink he has bee:'l. hcoci...,l.:tked. T.1.e mi~ist.er oug:~e. not. 37i0

~ovemCer 29, l9i9 Tape 147B SO - 2 legislation be draf<:e:i having in ::tinC. a ce::-t.a.in sc."l.er.:e 1 a ce!'"':.ain ?lar.. Mo-:.1.er is ,,...hat. cor:-.es ~ac.'<: and ·.mat. t:.1.e ministe: bring-s ~efore t."le iiou.se 1 a.."''.C. r would say t..'te po·o~ers :o ~e ccnfer::eC. :Jy vi=~~e of ::.his word '::egicn', ~1a.t :.."tcse powe::-s are far beyond. what t."te ::.:.niste:: int:.en;:ied <c.o have, are far beyond ...-nat he wants, are fa: beyond what. :~e int:.ends to use a.\td., i! :..'lat. is so, he should not. haY.: :.."l.em. ne s:"lould r:.ot have ti'.em, but:. I will t:.ell hi:n :.,.:..ey a::e there.

I. '••ill tell you :.."te powers a:e t:."tere, t:.~ey are in!init:.ely beyond wnat:. :..~is govern:~nt ~ave in :r.ir.d. au::. how do ·o~e know 't.."lat t.:.-1e m14"l!..ste:: will continue ::..o ~e t:-:e ::Unist.er? He is a :ea.sor.a.Ple ~.a."t, bu<: ;;::.?pooling .,...e :-.ad so~eon.a li.:<.e tne ;ent.!.er.a."l !::om Bonavist:.a South. (~1r. !-lOrga.nl a.s o:.."te ::-.!.nist.a::? ·:ou know, I ua.""". ciisas::.e::- could st:.rike ove.r:-.igh::.. ~iO:'":."l. (:-~:.

Stirli:.g) '? :,tR. ~asp::s: Heal:..•. !1..-=t. :<DSE P:!'S : h'ha::. a.cou<: 0::'1e ::".e:r.Per fo: 3onavis-:a If we had ~~e gen::.le~an !ro~ So~avis::.s {lnauciialel a loe. Yes, we would be in well hands. ::: t."te !'orr..er !1.!.:-..is-:.er o: Educaeion could Pe r..acall13.d ::.o his por-:folio ~= ::.o a ?Qrt!olio, JOU know. The !-IJ.nis::.er of :-~u."".iCi?al A!!ai::s (X:. ;;, Windsor), in this ~ill, :1r. C.•air.M.o"""., is a.ski:tg for very ;:~a::. powers. ~ow, i! he needs ~"te~, ~~at is one t:."ting. aut he said he Coes not need :..~em.

Then why is he asking for :.."tem? !f he has no::. a reason, !hen let US S'tO? giving :..~er.l ::.0 Z,..1.m. I do I".Ot :l""..ink t.he ro..inis:er ~.;J:: up at nigh<:. a.1d cooked up ::.: .... is sche:ne :::.0 do it.. I do :1.ot. t...,i:'..k. he had has r:ot. ::-ea:i o:..':.e :::.ill. He has ::ead it, oh Sl.lre, he has :ead tl1e ·..-or:iz, I C.O not ::!o'.:.bt. t."".a-:, bu-: he has ow::. unciers::.coC. :.nem, he :.as r.ot. u.•cie::s::.ood ::.."lem i:1. a legal sense. r say :..':.a: :."o.is i:lill qoes fa:: ::.eyor.d ..,na::. ':.."1..:! 3711

:;ovec:Je: 29, 19 79 1'ape 1473 so - 3 H?.. ?;OBSP:.'!'S: I sa:t ·o~e snou1C: no:. give i.:. t..o ~i=:. ~'i'ell now, ~tr.

C•ai:::r.ar., if 1 -;:,ay, we compress logic :.o the ex"t;ent: titat:. i:. be::omes absu:d, r would. suggest:., and I t."l.i!".k it is a little ::Oi:. absurd .... :-.en you look a:. :..~is ~ill to say :..hat this bill could eli:::inate a ci:.y council. : ::-.ean1 it Coes r.ot:.. (Ina.ud.i.':::llel Coes :\Ot:. sa:: St:. • .John's {inaudible)- But . ..,.hat .,..e are t:.alidng a.l:o·.l:. here is t.loe es:.al.:lish::-.ent:. o! :e;.l.o:..:!l cc~.ci.!..s.. 'feu l-::-.ow, a r.agicnal is ~ot:. gea::eci for <:.hat ?u.r?CSe, r:.o<:. l.:lt.~nCeC. for :..hat pu::;:cse. r.~~.c.

I ;.,'ould suggest to t:.:~e Co::-.ci.<:.:.ea., :1r. Ch.air:"~ •• that. it. C.Oes not. division, :Jivision {SJ, '..'it:'t respec'! :.o io;. i::n:.:. : do r.ot re;,.l::/ follo•..' min.l.-C.~a<:.a ;ot uncle:: ·..;ay •,..hen t.."i.e ~on. ::'!e::-.Ler !or Sonaviz-;a ::or:..': (;·tr. 5 :.i.rl.:.r.;l obse::""";eC. c.-.a: t.."le ::i :.'j •.:a::; not:. ::i~!ineC.. ':':!e hen. ::-.i::..:..s t:il:: s:.. :onn's ar:.d the Cio;.:r of corner 3:ooi-; M.c:.s respec:.ise.!.7, ~'..!.t:.

I do noc zee now ho'J all of t..'"is - ! jus:. reall1 ~a.·.re to poir.-:. ou:. to :...'"~ Cor::e.i:.tee ! do n.o:. see :...'le raasor. oehinC. !.::, ... mea:., it sot..:.'1Cs logi::a:.. and all o:: :..'lat. bue you have got :.o govern a:tci t.empe:: your obse::vaeior.s, what. ha•t.a you, ...,.it.1 :.he tes:. of reasonableness a.!"'.d .I. ·..Joul.:i. sa.y :..'-:.a:. :."'lis is an er..inently 3712

:-lovemi::le.:: 29, 1979 ·,.;e are ::onside::i~g, :rou k .. "low, ·,..;auld :'l.Ot: :Oring into effect ':=-.e abolition of the City of £t. John's, City of Corner 3rook, cr for t.hat mat.ter any ot:her municipality.I5 ·•ouf,d be quite absurd,! would agree w1~~ ~~e ~ember for the Strait of Selle !sle (Mr.

Robe~sJ,to say that the :n.inist:er could. r suppose, '.lnde:: t.his bill, : suppose he :::oul.:i :c.ake the local i:nprovetr'.en: distri=t of Hogan's Pend, or what ha•1e you, a :-eqional cou...,cil in it.self. aut., you know,tha't. would be abs:Jrd and I suppose there are many powers t:hat are gra.."lt:ed co :he Executive Col!."1ci.!., · ... t·.ich 1 if exer:::ised in a way :.n.at. ·..ras unreasonable, would lead ':o an equally a!:sur:i :esul-:. Bue this :.ill would :'l.Ot..

The ult:.i:::'!ate tes~ oC t.en-.pe:-.!.::g any gove::unent.,o::: cow:se, in ca:r-;ing out absurdi<;:ies and ot.he: <:hings, is ':.he ·..;ill o: <:he people. .;nd : :eally do no': .::::~llo¥1 the :lrgulTlant.. 3ome ?rog:ess an:! ; :eg:et. ~~~': ~y learned friend does no: !ollow ~- ~he arqc:nent. but. you know, JOU can .:.ead a ::.orse :o watt::' ::u:. you canno': make him ci:"i:Uc., as :...'le ol:! saying goes. r . ..,.il.!. have eo go ovo;!r it: agai:- .• !or"!t.::natel'/ ,in C:::.m."l':it:.':.ee ·.o~e ~ave u:-limi:.ed. as Your Honour k:lo•..;s, U."!.li:ni.':.ed :~pportunities as long as there a:e -:.·,.;o me.m.Cers '""ho alcerna:e and as long as :tey are rele•.ra:::t..

Ar:d -:.::.e thing abou':. a definition claus~ ~3 it is relevant t:o al:.ost any~'lin; you care to say. Now, we made some progress at leas<:. My learned !riend opposite agrees that:. t.he ir.t:.erpret.a1:ion t...'la.t '<~e have put forward is possi!:l~. He had to agree wi~h that.. I~ is just as "Nell. I mean, he coul-:i i1o~t ~rgue, even the learned c:e:n:.lel':'..an :!re:r. St .. Joh. ... 'c Eas1: (:1r. :-tarshall) could not: argue aga.ins': ~a:, a.~d !'l.e ::.as ?layed some sticky wickets in his :.it:\e, H.~.. ?.C9ZRTS: argues against tr.e co~et.i::on. No, he never ::e does not ll.s:en to anybociy ei-:.he::.

That. is ;:a::':. of his ;:roble;.:. :;o~;~ever, -:..'lat. is anot..~er stor-J. The:e will be another place, a.not..";.er 3713

November 29, l9i9 ~t.~. ?.CSEEtTS: forum for chac. He does noc even answer l~~:~rs which h~le solicieors wrice to him solici~ing an answer. Now, Sir, eha: is another seory. '!'he problem her~ is not:. just wie.h the absence of a de:ini::icn of e..'1.e •..;ord "city" i e."lat is one problem. :'he problem .:.s really, in addit.ion to that ,with t.1.e de:inition of t..he word ''region".

The ~nister says that my argument poss~~ly is t3king e.."le r.~c~er no problem in saying that my argument may '-"ery well go :Oeyond t.he reasona.ble. 3ue, Si:-, ~o concede tha~ only suppo::;:;.s :ny a:-gcr.en':: because,o! course,~y ar~~n:: goes no :urther than t.~e s::a::ute does. ~~d when I say my argument: ;oes somewhat: beyond the logical and the r9asona:Ole, or to ~he li~~::s of t.~e law, it is logical Ou: i: goes :.-:;l ':.1-e lim.i:s ::.f logicalit.:,.', and it cer~ainli· goes ~eyon:i reasonabl~ness, as C.oes ::.e governt:'lent.' s bill on ma.t.r.l.!:loni.'!l prc:;er:y ·,;her!! t."tey ::al:<. o:: - th-=y would :J.Ot. ::u: in the word "reasonable", talked ot"•.!."l.consciona.ble''i:;.s:eaC.

So i£ 1 gc· !ieyor.d re:asona.=.leness, ::: <Un not. beyond •Jnccnsc.lona.1::.:.li::!es. H·! argument goes no :ur-:her tha.."l -;he st:a::ut.e does. So : would .say to che min.'..seer and :.o his learned colleague ~"l.d to all, ~1.e wnole group in the Cab.lnet. -it. is ~'1.eir ~ill; the ::.inis'ter happens co ha'le ::he unenviabl-e t.ask of shepnerd.;.::.; it t.';.rough, just as in :!.ue co!.!rse he 'Hill have :..,e Utlen•.:ia~le task of defending it., and living ~ieh i-;. But. of =curse I can console him wi~"l t~e knowledge that he has probably lasted longer new t.,an any ML"lister of ~~"licipal Affairs.

You know,being ML"l.iseer of ,, H.~'licipa.l Affairs in t.'lis t'rovince, Mr. ·r;."ta..iman, in ':he years since Confederation has reall:/ b..,.~:. a i;'lace for :1 self- ?leasane~.til:::.e W.r. D!.nn) •..;ould concur ·dt.h t.ha::, that i.e is a very onerous position ~ndeed. 371-1

No~e~er 29, 1979 Tape Ho. 1479 ~"M - 3 MR. ROBERTS: and go. ! d.o not. know- !. suppose Hr . .Seat.on Abho:.: • .-a~ t..'le firs:. liinister of ~1unicipal A£ fairs t.'1at. I can recall. !n. rtty time, you ~'"low, we have had - I ~ not sure ! could name ~~ew ~11. r am not su=e I could name all ~~e TO~/ mL'1isters. A..'t HON • .:-tEXBER: John ~Iolan. John Nola."l. •..;as .1 Minister of !iunicipal ~ffairs. Eric Oawe was a Minister of Munici:;al Affairs;. AU HON. ME:·lBER: :'he ?remier. !1R. ROEERTS: John Crosbie was a Minister of Municipal Affau-s. AN RON. XE."tBE.'It: Harold Collins. ~.

ROBERTS: Harold :ollins was a Xin~st.er of Municipal A!fairs. Val Earle ·.,as t.he Minist.~r o! :-tu.r.icipal .!!,.ffai:::s. AN HCN. ~B£R: Wnere have~~~~ .1 11 gone? :-ffi. ?.OBE.:ttS: Mu."licipal Affairs. T::.e ~entlema:-. from l?leasa.'1.<:.Ville (:·t:. :linn) was a Minis:.er of !1unicipal Affairs. ! dn net know- I have probably lef<:. out. ~he door to ~'1e office of ~'1e Minis~er of door. So ! say :ha~ ~y ~e~~s of a - A.N :!:ON. !1D!BZR: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: Well,the minis~er may feel he got. st.uck half •11ay t.~ough.

The mi.:liSte:- is out scbstanu.1l girt.h, g-i-r-t-h, as a.:e 1r.a..ny of u.s. au~ the point I am rna.kl.ng i,; . ' he can .~n -:he dark of t.he night., ·.o~hen the three hundred .J..:ld nint.."l ! council has descended on him for some:hing that is r.ot. ·•ithin his will pass !rom him in dee course. But the minister d.ist=acts :~. The ministe: :.akes me away, !1!:'. Chairman, an'i. ! have r.o desl.re :o ce :.a.;;. en away :rem t.".a:. . ., The ?oir.:. is ~~is, that ~y argument go~s :o the li=.its 3715

Novee~er 29, 1979 Tape No. l4i9 NH - 4 MR. ?.:8ERTS: of logicality, :rt gees be:/~r.d reasonableness. au:, Sir, i: is consistent w~~~ :.~e bill. And so I would say to the minister that I think what he ought :o do is to :ome up wit.h a definition :~f the word "region" '<~~hich .,.ill limit the po...,.er of the Cabinet. Oh,horrible ':.bought! Imagi:J.e limiting ~~e power of ~~e Cabinet! You ~~o~ I have been in a Cabine:. and 3716

!love:be.r 29, l9i9 Tape No. 1480 I can uncie.rst~d t~~ so.r~ of ~ental rot t."lac sees in to any ~an or lady ·.,.ho takes the Queen's oat..'1, a."'ld I ~sure my hon. !rienci from St. uor~·s ~or~~ (~r.:.carter) -he is ~oc learned, at least within t=:.e te:=. i.'l whiC. we use t."ta t in t.~..e House; he may be in a.."'lot.'1.er sense- would be the very !i::"st. to agree t..,at a mental ret sets into a man or a woman when His Honour t..":e Lieutenant- Governor i"..rears :!lat. r~an or .... c~a."l into office as a. cir.ister a...-.d you undertake to reveal intestine insurrections as Cid,!or ex~ple, the President c! t.~e Council.

He revealed an intes~ne insurr~cticn and ~e was excreted fro::: t.,e Cabinet as a result t..'"l.ereof to carry <:."'.rough t.i.e analogy-or excreted hil:(self, I t. .... i."'lk, to do t:.e gentleman !ull c:edi:.. (Inaudible), HR. ?.OBE?.':'S! Hy frier.C. f:oc St. }oh.n •s ~tort..":. {M.:' • .J .car-=erl knows all t.~e short ter:ns, Sir. ! •;~ill leave it. to him. If you are in ~~e savoury busi~ess ! guess, ycu come -:o r_-,c·• ~~ese t..i.ings 1 do you? 5ome of ~s, Sir, are in a less savoury -:ype of work. Hr.

Chai:::a.n, the preble: is -;.."l.a~ the Ca..!:::inet are askir:.g for pcwers beyond :..":.a-:. ...,·hie.": they need anC. e.."te !rental rot · .. ·h.i:::h sets in a."'ly person .,.,he beccr.cs a m.i:1ist.er of tl'".e Crcvn is t.!".ey begin t.":.ir.king t:...'1.e House is irrele~,o·ant, :..i.e House is JUS~ used onc:e in a while to ratify legislation or gl..ve the Cabinet fu~i.er power.~-,d it. is :..~is bundle of powers which taken tcge~er represents the sove:eignty of this Province as ccnstituted !:::j' -:he 5:itish North .\I::erica Act, and really 1 it is only a temporary a.berrat:.icr, that the sovereignty rests with t.lo::e House of 1\sse::bly, it ought., really to rest wit.~ t..l-te Cabinet.

And you get to the point hen. gentleman opposite have got to en occasion - and I will not say ~~eir .;:redecessc~s did not - .,.here you simpl:: say, "Tte House of '-Sse::-.bly is :eally JUSt. a nuisance. Co ;.oe i-.ave t.o :;:ut UF '<:i':~ i-:?" AnC. t.his bill ref!.ec-:s t.:'1at: attitude. ! do not t..'"l.i~~ ~~e minister i~tended ~t to, • do r.ot ~~i~k anybod~· intended i': -:o!but all of a sudC.en it does ar.C ! find '.:...1.:.\lt. 3717

!;ove.m.Ce.r 2 9 , 19 79 :'ape N'o. 1430 seetion very, verJ cffe~sive for that reason. I t."U.n:< ~o~·hat the =.;;.ni.:u:er ought:. t.c do Si:, is ·<~e will l.et Clause :1 stand for a Pit.

TI1e draft.speo::?le axe ...,.ith.in earst.ct. 1 !. suspect, a..'1.t! let t.'1em c.oti'.e up wit:..~ sotte vcrds to li.;:it 'ra<;ion 1• I.! t.~e ::dnis:er says he does not. want powe.:-s, why dce!3 he <:.ake :he.tt't:' ~tow he ca.~ be stubborn. ae can say, ··~1:, •·ell, ·what we write is. i::. lett.ers of bron:e a.•1.d it. ca.nrot be e..l').anged, " and !le will have hiS vay in t..he short-te.r.r;, but he will be here for ler.;e.r t.'"la.n h.e o•..t;ht:. to be here gettirtg !:is bill t.~rouqh ~~e eott=.it:ee. ! ehink ~~at the word 'region• ought to be eliminat.ed and I t:.1ifu~ t:.he 'wiOrd 'city' ou;h.t:. to be Cefir.eC, and I think t.-.,.at: it ouo;ht tc l:;.e rr.aC.e .::::ystal clear e.'(a.ct.ly 'W'hat t..":e goverr~ent can~ under ~,e guise ef c:'ea:~ng a :egienal au~~oriey.

I have vo~e.d against: the ;n:inc:ipal of e.~is bill. I c!c not t.~ink i~ ought to 't:e in t..~.is bill. I tb.ir..k i-:. ought. to be a separat:.e bil:.. : have no protlam wi~~ ~~e ccnceFt of regional ;overncent1 bU~! r~ve a great deal o: p::oblen: ..,itit l:..'1.e •.tay in whic.'1 !.t. is being Cc::ne ~y ~ • .:.s gcvernoen~. : ~~ink we are see~r.g i~ snue~,if ~~ere is such a wcr~. we art seei::.g it b::c::uqht in :y the back d-oor. "the government a=e <:.r-]:..:-.g to de l::'J i."'l.c!irec::ticn t..~.at -..hic::ll t..i.ey could not: do !::y di.:ec:.ion.

So \Jha::. ought :o !:le l!ol:".e is :he Ce!i.nitio;r. of t.'1e word. •region,' There cugb.t to !:ie sc:ne limitaticn put en it.. 'feu could limit it , I suggest., :;r. Ef·:U! .. ~er in upg:::ac!ir.g I probably do'lo;r.qrac!e and. : have no i."ltent.:.en, Sir, c! Ccinq ei~~er or of doing ~"lything othe~ ~"1 faying Cua ~~d p~~pe:: homage a.nC. ::e£er:ence to Your Honour in response eo '{cur r..onClur 's 1:'.1li.ngs t:.."lereupcn. So t!te point is, Hr. Chain:.an, t."lat t.l-tere a.re t..o ways in whic:h .it could be limited.

One is to a nwnber of square ::li1AQ" or square ~hatever t~ey are in metric - what are ~~ey in ~et=ic? ~~at ~s ~~e ~~it of square ~~asure~ene in metrie? Hectare? Some of us have enough trouble ..,.!.~'1 ae:es. B.u't. whe!l ·;~e were at se.l:ool, there wer"' roes .and cha.ins and wha.t else were t."".are? ?<..:.rlongs'? A:1 RC!i. ~:mt?.: Perches and :::;d.:s. !i..'tt. R0BE?.'!.'S: Per::hes ar.d reds.

I do not: knc'-l if ':hat c::ou!d lit:ti ':. it by so r:z.."ly hec:ta::es,ycu k.t"'.ow1 p:-oviCe l:b.J.t a region shall :-.ct cor.:ain less t..4.ar. , I do not k.."tcw, so t:ta:1y !:J.ec:t:ares. •·i"hat is the ::-a tic o! a hectare t.o 3718

~ovember 29, 1979 HR. P.OBEP.TS: }.!l HCN, HE."!SE?.: :·!R. ROBE?.:'S: A."l !!ON. M£1-lB ER: ~R. ROBERTS: SCM£ HON. ME:1EE?.S : 1-'.R. RC9ERTS: ! do net t:~re:.enci tc F'-"lOW. talki.."l.g a!::cu <::. A.'l !iOt!. ~!E!:.SER: Tape No. 1480 ?AJ an acre? !'w'o and a half ac!'e , • A hectare is two and one h.alt acres. two an~ one ha.l! acres is one he~are. two .. ,d one h?.lf acres is or.e heet:.a:e. Oh, oh! New will t..'1e t'JO of you ctake '.:.C. JOU!' :n.i~d; Ch, oh. As usual ':hey :o not. know •..tt-,ae :hey are r am re~lly net. ::o conce:neC.

Well 1 ! ~cw\ well the poirit is~. important one t.ha.t t.'-lere aught. to be a 2.5 !-!R. :::.oaE?.:s: 4,5 acre;;; in a hec-:.a.re or vice versa? AN He::, !-'!:"'$E?.: ncres per hectare, yes. l~R. ?.CSE:tTS: So ii ""e •,o~ere eo say, for ~xa.r.:ple, 3719

Ncver..ber 29, 1979 1-L'=1.. ::. ROBE;F.!'S: would =e 250 acres. XP .• OI!ni: !-'..R, ?.OEE?.'!'S: Tape ~o. 1481 c:-; - 1 less ~:,an 100 hee-:.ares, t~.a: 'I~at.s ::ighe. The hen. genr.ler:'lan !or Pleasar.e.ville (Mr. Oinn) is not only nicer, he is smarter and hanCso~er ~~~~ his !rienC for Mount Pearl (Hr. N. Windsor\ :-!P.. RICECtr!': XR. ~f. W!NDSCR: is unparlia:::entar;. !1P., RCBEP.TS: Mount Pearl Arena. Personal abuse, ~-tr. C.l..ai:::o.a.."'l. :;.a<; That is not ;erscnal a!:.··.:.se, S:..:, ::-:a..: is tr~~,.

T~e tr~t~ is a defence to liable. of course, is -:.o li::-.i t it in the sense of a given l"'.\!l'!'J::er cf. ~eo;: le. Co not know what woulC =e reasonable- 20,000 or 30,000 ~r ao,JCO cr 100,000, I really do not knew - :.ut.

I t..~ink that eit.'-:er •.:oulC =:e a ·.,·ay <;o go a.r•.d in t.l-:.at: way we ·...-ould take away fr:::::: the - !".o: fre~ -:.::e ~.:..n.:..;;ter, take a"'·ay !rem any un=easonable successor he :night have. :: fo:: ~:-:a::?le, Heaven forbid, the qe:ntl'!n:a.'l for Eay of Isla.'lclS (~!r. ;·.'ccCr~wJ ::y frl.c:-:C a.~d sparring ~a~e. should have to give up being ~est coas~ assis~~~~ tc t.."le Pre.'l'lier at the su::~ of SlO ,OCIJ per ~.,num casr., for whi'eh !'te ear::s his daily bread, I have no doul::t, if he shoul:i 'r.ave to g.:..•:e tl-:a": '-.!; ~-:C •.:.sed, So ! would say t.o t.~e rt.inist.er, in all. ser:.ous:-.ess - ~~inks r am net :e~'lg serious; ! te~l him I am being Ceacily seriouz - that be ough~ to ask ~'la~ E=artic:.:.lar secticn <:o stand. ;.;e are ;o:.:-.; o;o :;e c:-. days a£te: t.~at.

MR. STAGG: HR. P.CE.E?.:'S: Cc:r.a on : (!"..:. Stagg aP .• S':':..GG: says, ccme en! If he wishes to return to ot.~er pt.:rS:\!i"::.s - ( !naudib le l MP .. E. PDEEP.'!'S: :iell, if rr.y frie::d !o:: 5te:;:!-.en\rillc wishes to a.."'lswer his letters, ! ..... ish he would. !n so saying, ! :,cpe :·is ans'W'e:r is the one ! wane, because I Cc not "-'a."'lt. an ar.s;.;e:: c"::..l<:.er t:' . .:!.n t."'.e one ! want !rem !'.i::t, ! :,av'! haC. t.h~ ct.'-:er i:i::.C. !t? .. S'!'AGG: ! have news fo: yc~. 3720

Tape ::o, 1.;.e1 Yes, I sus;ect,Sir, li:.:e t.he r.e;:rber from Ste;henville,~~~t is outsiCe tne relevanc1 rule. I a~ tein; V14.rj serious ,..hen I :nak.e t.."lis FOl.nt., it is an .b':;:o::tant. point, a:1:i one •.onici.1 t ~"link ought. to be given sor::e ccr.siCer.1.tion. ':i1ere ought to i:e some re:st:iction placed •Jpcn t:..'"le definit.icn of t.":.e vord •region• a.s it. appears in th.is

section .... nic:O is c.."J.e one unC.e:: ciiscussion. L'l a.ciciiticn, I ·.oculd. say to t:r.e rr.inister t:1.at -:.i~ere ougnt to be a C.efinition put. in oftne •..;o::d•c.i:.y• to :r:a.k.e io; quite t.o say to all t.":.at? :·L'!:t, :·;. \oi:iCSO?.: t."l.e :'lin-s:.er,:::::y ':..'le ·.vay,• t."l.e :;.on. gentle::".ar: keers rafer:in; cc .. .,, pOitrfer t..'lat. tae :.inister ·•ill :1ave., '!:.....,e ,r.;..e:: is t::.e Cabinet o: tbe Frovl.nce, t.'le go1.ter...:.ent of t..'>e :--::cv:..nce , S'.;DJect. -:.o a :easibilit.~· StUdj·- :-c_q. :.;.

WI;<CSCF.: -as we di;;;cusseC., ! t.hink., t..,.,.o Cays age. j.;e ~lked. a.Cout t.'le feasil:.;.:..i::i· st.uC.y anC. ! ir.dica.:.eci. t.ha1:. as p.r-:. of that feasibilit.1 St~.:dy t.h.era is cer<:.ainly no reason t.":.at:. t."',ere cc·~lC. not :::e a pl!!bisc:ite. 'Ihe h.on. gent:et:'la.n at. t.."'..tt. :ir:.e- ~o .require::-.ents tJ.1.at. t..'lere nus:. ze There l.S a requl.ret'.en: cnat:. t.."ler~ •,..oulC. be a pci::ll-!.c nea.ring. M.P.. ROBE~S ~ Does t.'le Cabinet nave t;.;.1e power t:.O ;a agaJ.nst:. t.ne feasibility stuC.::t if t.'lei' so wish?

Yes, they are not tour:.d :Oy t::.e feasiJ:.ilie.y st.udy. :·1:?.. ROs::trs: ::olleago..:.es :..n t:.eir .,..isdcr.. or l.n tt.air stutt.orness co~lC. S3'/ t::e oppcs:.. te. 3721.

Nover:ber 4:9, 1973 Tape :;o. 1481 !<'.? •• N.

W!!lCSOR: :ie · .. -oulcl have to haVI! gooC. cause, obviously. ~:and.at=:~rJ pt.:Zlic hear.:..::.;::> so thac. t:.e:::e ...,oulC ::.e every and t:he minis-ter has t.he :::i;ht. t.o have a. pleb-iscite The hen. ger.el~~ar. asked ~e a q~es~icn a couple o! days ago ·..rh.ic.'t I Ul"'cler:.ood t,::) ;eFo t."le response tc., - was locking for it at that t.iee in t.'te De?ar~ent. cf M~~icipal Affairs .md housins- j\c-:.. ! :!..i.:! not !'ind it. because it was _in ~":e ~ack in e.~.e uend.t:'..e:lt:.S, t..u1: :.~ere is an atr.enc!aC. sect..:.cr. of t..'1e cepa:-:~er.t: of :!.unicipal ;.!fairs and Housing Act. called ?lebiscit.es, :le.uing outlining tte authon t1 a.r.d the PC\o'er. ~e gcve~.ment have t.'te au~'tcrit.t to order ple..O.:..s:itl!s free t.ir.e to t.i!:'.e.

The non. gent.let:".an ::;,uestioneci tnat. :.!R. S. P.CS.E?.TS: :;o, ! ::;.uestioned :.nis .ac-:. a.nC -:.l"'e ~en. ~~nister gave ~e - ':'he :;:ewer i> unCer t.~.e :.tunicipal Affairs a::C Hcusir.;- Ac-:., as many ct:..."'l.er _;e-wers a~. :tar.:r of c:r.e ;:o ... -e::-s ve.st:eci l.n t..!~<: Cabinet: and ~~e ~nister are given ~o t.~ec under t.."'l.e ~~?ar~~en-:. o: :11.:.o•licipal Affairs and Housing Act. is way we nave a z.tu."lic::.pal n.ffa!.rs :epart.--::e:-.t. Ace. :-l.F •• >l. H!HCSCR: -:.'lac ~any o: <:.he powers are in t.."lat. ?ar<:.icular act rat..~er ehan ~e.1.nq given r.ere.

I agree, C1.1':. unfort.u.'lately ..,e a:e no':. a=ending that act. ~·:? •• ;1. hZ:~JiJSO?.: be C.one1 0ut unC::er 't...l.e ex..:..s::i.ng leg.Lslat.ior. -:.ne Ca.oinet has ':...!e a• . .:::.::o:::J.':.:f -:.c c..is!:'..iss c::n:.nc!.l.s, appoint. cotr.=.issicns, ·.;ha-:.eve::-1 for Cue cao.:.se. 3722

:;oo.;e::Z.ar ;!9, 1979 '!a:e ~,;o. l4Sl r.;?.. :; • ROBERTS: nu~ no a~~~ority to c:eate a regional govern~en~, what. we ara are worried. about no-"'. HR. ~L fi'I:-ODSGR: All we are doing is ;ivi:..; e.:..er:t a sir.i.lar power here. :t does :.ot. give t.nel:i any aut.1.ori~y to arrobt reqional o;ot:noi:.S responsible for local problars, local issues, local aer~ces plus regional services. !-'.F •• E. ROE::.R':S: Gives ~~ere e\~rJ au~~ority to appoint for regional ser.rices wilic.b, a:e •.o~aat. t!-.e Cabinet clee::-.s t."'.e::n to be. Yes, e:.:ac~ly. That is t:ne -.. ·hole pol.nt of i~.

E.xactly.I suspeC't • .. :e are going to ;e a lot. longer on clauses !-!R. STIRLI!,;G: Hr. C!'lai:::nan, ! tho~.:ght :0.1at. ,..as a !aJ..:!.y inr.ocent ;;;:uestion that s~a~ec! t.his cie.i;;.-at:e .. MR. ?.!DE:Cl.-"!': 'r.'le c=u-nister's answer touc."'.ed it of!. ~o I u."'.cierst:anci frotr. ~•e minis-:.er, no1.·, th.at :-.e agrees e.ha: 3inee ::n.:.ni!:i?a.li:.y .and. town and local :oc.:1dl - Coes he agree now t!J.ae th.e ciey .,..ill Ze defined :.n ~'lis lis: cf def~ticns? I ehcught it was a fairly 3723

'I'ape 1482 EC - 1 now agree :."'.at. ~·::i:y•is ;oin:; to Oe C.e:'i::eC.? I a.-et not. sure !..:' it. is necessary. : '-~ill uncier-:a.~e to :;et. an opinion as to ...,het..":.er or r.ot. i:. is necessa::-J to ha.o.:e a cit.'l defined, !:lut cert.aL"".ly there is no Ci.fficulty in de!inir.g a. City.

Well, again, you see, :."'le re!erence co :.~is whole a:::.- ~ .... is ~nole act is going ~ say, Wi~":. ~;.is au:.~~rity, i:nprove=:ent dist.::ict, i':. used <::o be - ':.. .... e ':owns a.re all going o;o ;e:. t.."l.eir a.ut."lo::it:.y :roo. ::. ... is act. and t.. ... e regional council. how a. ml.n!.St.er '"ho l.S as sensi~·te as ~;.is :r.in.:..st.er is ar.C. . .,.ho visit:ed -tMny councils as he CJ.d - a.."".d ,as !. said, in ':I.Y opinion is a ;ood net. have ::oe cour:.esy :o ser.:! out a ccpy of ::..'-.is -:ery :!et.aileC, vcr'/ eopy o! :."lat. act out. to t..":.e people .,.-r.o a:e going t.o te governed by i:. ''iou a.::e going w have i': regarC.less,' is ':hat on.ly today '••e :.a·.re =~~!": e•ren been sent. ':.::1 :.-.e exec-.:.o;ive o: t.":e fe::!era::i.on :::!. :~~.::>1.:-i;al..:.:.:.es, a..":C subst:a.."".:ial and subso;a.n':!.ve c."l.anges- a."".d or.es :..'la: r agree Wlt.h, :.":~se :.-.at we have brought. up in t.":.is Souse ar.:i yo•.J ~a·Je agre~C. t.::1 so:r-.e of ':..~ose amendments. :-tit. tl. wr:roso?.: !. would point. out. to t.-,e ;"\on. gent:ler.ta.n, I was unCer no requirement to give him a copy of :.-,e a.r.enci::':er.:. at. all ~til I introduced it. ! did i-; out. o: courtesy. ~-1R.

S':'t ?.!.I:-IG: t."te mer.bers of e.b.e r:~use. 'rhe ques::io:. of co~.;Zt.esy : a::~ <:a.lking a;;:ou-:. is e."le cou~esy ::o t..":.e people who are going :.o Ce afE2c:eC b·f t.his. Once .,..e debate :.Us for :he next. six or seven :n.cn<::...._s or · .. ·i'.ai:.ever :.i:::.2 3724

Tape l4B2.

EC - 2 by :.l'lis, because :nest of :..'le au:..":.orit.y goes to ~!'le C.a.i:::ir.e:, bt:.:: :.-:e ?eople ·•ho are going :.o !:e a!!e:cted are c.;e vot.ers .:ight. ::.:ot.:.g:-.ou:. :..:...is whol~ Province, t."i.e people . ..,.ho live in r::.u."l:..Ci?ali-:..ies, and. t-'tere will ::e no area - and :..'tis !.s one of t.'te good t.:."tings a!;out. t...'-ta -!C'; - of !ocal cou."lcil. au: t.h.ese ver-f people, ~M.ese :Z,JCO people,•.rho a:e t.rying to aC...'"Iinis:.er :..;.e a.!!'ai:s o: :.r:.is ?rovince :..'trot:.g:1 :..'"'.ei:: mu."licipa.lities, have not. ::,een g::.ven t..'1.e cour:esy o! a copy o! :..-.a ac-; t.'tat. they are going :o ~e governed by, anti they s:.i.:..:..

C.;, not. ::.av~ a ,_\L~. :.-r.msJF..: :<ou ar~ not:. relevar.:. no ..... It is relevant. in t:.::.s resoect. - :\ave 3. copy of i:.. haVt'l: taken :..'le oinis:.er at his word. ;;o,.-, in t:.."le C.efi:-• .i:.::.o::. t..<er..: .:..::; r".:: refe::ence :.o cio:y, and yet. -..hen you get. t:::l t:..":e J?Co...'<2!'S - a:.C. :::aye>! .:..:. .:d.s just ?icked ouo: of anot.he::- act:, maybe it Coes: no-:. belong in here at. a::..

I ..,.ill be delight!!!C. i! ~·v.! rni.nist.er says, 'Oh, I a.t:'l so.r::'"'f, ':..'1a:. a.lzc ".Ja;; a mist:~e; ~~'"lat. ::eally does no~ belong in che.re.' - ~~e minist.e.r indi~at:et it:. ·.;as a :U.st.~e., ':.'"la-:. he di::5. r",oo: re<illy r..e.a."l o:o ?U:. i:1. ':."l.e a-::t. ':.>J.':. au:...~ori':"f to appci:u:, a.nC ie has, :believe, in :.::e arnend..":".e:-.:.; ~.:; soc:: as ':."lis also is a r.lis-;a%e. E..:t :..! were a t:e::-.=:er, i.!l.o:.::er as a r-=s.1-=:e:-.:. o: 3725

~iove:r.cer 29, 1979 Tape 1482 ~c - J of 't..~e ci~y of Co:ne: arock, I would Oe ver:! ouch conc:erne::! a.bou:. ar. act which. says -:.~at -:,.:,.e Ca.bine:. has 0:.:"l.e a.u:::::or.:.-:y - a.."l.d here is ·,.,nd:. it says - "ac;uire a.."l.y of -:..-.e fixed asset.S of the 372G

Nove~er 29, 1979 Tape No. 148 3 GH-l )ffi. S!'!RLING: municipalities and cit:ies. Now, ·~e told thee all :r~ough the debate and :hey believed ~~em because e~e minister is a geed ~iscer. He has never lied to them and they believed him once he said, "The Ci t:y of Corner Brook is not gc.:.ng to !:e af:!ec-::ed by this act, :he City of St:. John's is not goinq to be affec-::ad by ~is act.." But way over here buried on paqe 101, Sect:ion 309, this cou."l.cil, this regional council - AN HON. !-f£:.t=E..o:t: :-1-R. ST!R:.ING: Are you debating the bill?

No, ~e are !ebacing ~~e definition of 'city' and ~~e need for definition. ~nder definition, ~e need to define 'cit:y' - We can say anything we want: under t.'lat section. (!naud~ble) • ."-ffi. S':'!F.LI:-lG: Yes, well, you see, t:ha-:. .,..,oul::i be - if you agree t:o do that, then r ::an proceed. Do you agree co do ~~a~, cue ou<: ci<:y? (Inaudible) suggest. !om.. Sl'!RL!!IG: ~o, no, :nake up :r•our :nind. SOME F.CN. ~~'-t3E?.S: Ch, oh! MR. ST!P.L!!-iG: You see, : .,..ill t:aJ<e che t..tord of ':he m.inist:er t.ha:. he •;till define ':::iey' in ehe

definitions, a:-.d then r ••ill leave ~e point, if t.~e ~~niseer will say ~hat.. au~ ~~e lase ci=e ~,ac ! took the word of ~'le ~nister, I took him at face value until I read the act:. Now ! have ~~e ability to read :he act because we are presented with a copy, Cut nobody in ~he cities and towns thro~ghout the Province ilas had -:he oppor-:unity to ask e.hese questions, and they are going to be the ones affected by i:, bound by ~~e regulaeions, bound by ehe act. Just in case, for the benefit of ~~e Xi~ister of Finance (Dr.

Collins), in case he t.'"\inks that t:..~is is a figment of my it:tagination, there :.s a telegram from the Town of St. George's, which is not a Liberal district. It is not re~resented ~y a Siberal ee~er a: ?resent; it is a ve~y Liberal dist:rict. "';o;e feel thac. aut:horic: t::~ set. t.:;:= regional cou~cil as well authori:y :::.~ :a.~e a•11ay responsibilities a::d assets :'rom ':.own councils 3727

~ovem=er 29, 1979 Tape ~io. 1483 GH-2 should not. rest .,...i':..._ ':..:-:,e Cabinet., hut, as a safeguard, sho~ld rest:. wi::.h 't. .. e :louse of Assembly" - cover that by defini~ions, if you like. From ?or': Saunders, ·•:::, as :nayor of ?crt Saunder::>, feel that. :he goverrur.en::. elected )::)y -:... .. e ?eople of t:his ?rovince, and ! refer specifically to the Cabinet:, should not have ~ .. e authority as stated to jisregard any input. from the House of Asse~~ly.

And, probably :nore i:nportant: to the ?eople of this ?::o•.rince, this decision gives implication that ~-.e Province of ~ewfoundlar.d is on ~ .. e ~ .. reshold of dictatorship ar.d co~1nL~is~. The gcve:nment elect is only there to represent the peo~le. ~hey should at least have enough e~er~ise ~n planning to consult ':..1.e people about such a major decision.'' AN HON. :-!:2·13£?.: !tR. S:':'!?.l.:::G: H,:::>., ZT!?'~' .:::G: SCHE HON. :1E!{B£?.5: MR. 'd!~l:JSOR: e.r~t you sent out yesterda7. :1?. •. il!~OSCR: {Inaudible) Por~ Saunders. Port Sal.!!ld.:rs. (Inaudible) firs~ one. The first one ;.;as St.

Geor;e' s. -,.'ho was tha~ signed by? St. Gaor;e' s. a! chard :-lacl:;onald, ma~·or. Oh, Oh! ! ~i:l keep ~t ;oir.g, :: you ~lke. Read all ~he replies :::.o the telegra:n I "'i!l do :::h:a::. I v.·ill do :::.hat. Include t:tem all. I am t.he one ·.o:-.o ~old you ~o reier to ~~e Federatior., :oo. 2ead all of :rieo. :-1R. ST!?.LISG: I agree .,..ith t.hat, '"e intenC. tc. We intend eo, but the ~nister of Finance (Dr. Collins) feels :~ae it is only a concern of this side of the House, and r ~~reading a couple of telegrams froo some of the coun=ils. DR.

COLLI!-lS: !-!!L T!-:."0!-!.5: li.st.en ar:~-wa·f. :1H., ET IP.L!!ZG: As amer,ded. Wha~ is :!'!e good:' You ·.,rill c1o: e•te:-. .! .,...as aski.::~ a question, an::i : rea11:,: t.~c~ght ·.;e were going ':~ get. off t.his in abou-:: t.!'.J.rt:.'/ secor:ci;;;. r :..J;ough: the mi::iste: ..... as qo~r:g to ge~ i.lp a_,d say, "'Jh, sarr-; :t.a't must be a."'l. o:r..ission • .: -,...ill nave 'ci:y' ::ie=ined". I:' he had sa.J.d that, ·..-e ;.;ould be on. The:e · ... ·o:.:ld ::;e r.ot:hi:lg to !:Je :ione about. 3728

November 29, 197? GH-J a.~.. ST!?.!.I!'lG : ie. Does ~.e T~nis~ar nc~ agrea ~hat he "'ill deiit:e ':=iey'? :f l"l.e 'Hill, ! ·.;ills::.:. ;io\o.'n and we · .. ·ill proceed. Ciey of C;:rr.er Srock ~d. '.:1-.e Cit:? of St.. Joitn 1 s or :J..'1Y ot."le:: cit·:" :.:ta:. may come int:o being, if th.ey a::e not. defined, e.'len '..rhic:t cit.ies are ::'ou referring ~o '"'hen you say you can acquire any of the fixed asse<:s of :..'1.e :nunicipalities a.'1d cities •.tit:..,.ou:. :::cmpensat:ion? 'tihich cities a:e :..~-o.ey t.~at: you ::-:fer to in :bat a:ea'?" .Y.a'fbe t:.'le minis:.er .,.ould like to ar.swer til at.

MR. '..l!!i::JSOR: Sor:y, ! m~ssed ~~e last: par:.-~ :: ·,..onder :.: you ·..;ould repeat. t::.ae. s~ce you do not define 'city' and 1ou- AN HON. !·:E..'1BE?.: There are cnli' :wo cities ;.n =..':e ?rovi::ce. Yes, okay, and suppose :.here is gel.:'.; 3729

:tove:rhlil:: 2'?, 1979 7apt! 1464 -~ - l !1R. -.1I:-n::soF.: d.iffe:;ent.ly t.h.a."l a:.y ot..'ler c:.:nicipalit.y7 it7 ~ou Co not incluC.e it i!l yo\JX defi!ti::.ior., :.hat. is t,1;:e •;ery prc~:e::-.• •, ':lou define municipality. Do you want:. to ~'lew .,..hat. :rou define ::tunicipaliey as? ::ot>.mWli-e.y, town a.."ld a region. You do not. define :.."l.e cl.t'l as .s. muni:ipali t.Y. MR. WI:.;:so?.: apply here t:.iuoug:t all the oe...'1-a:: provisions o! t..'1-e ac:-.:.. au-e. :.:.;.:..s is a =.aJor prov.:..s::.on o! ~e a.c:..

I agree if you will :.ake ou:. ret;ional gover::.=::en:., :~er. ·.:e ca::. h-'l·.t,;. no Cebat.e on regional gove~~ent. r~e ou:. :hat sact~on of e...~e ~=:.. MR. W!:n:SOR: referreo:i to municipalities - a cotr.m~.mity, :own or regio:-: -..a:.;. ot . .''ler '.ti:.'l :to reference :.o-. :·tiL STI?..:..:::G: not. just ·:hange city so t."l.e :naJor pa::t o! it. - it. is just a quesuor. of Cefinin; it.. I t.'lought it. was a fairly si:::ple :..';.ing, t:..'la: you ;.:ere t:="Jinq :.o get a."t- a.c-:. - , --· it. ha!> 6JD sections in i':., a."".d you ju:.t le!'t 0'.!':. :-efe:e!".ce ':.o t.:td ::~:.::·, tha't is all.

If you agree t.o Ce!ine i:.. efl.gon r. •,..ti:l sl.t. do .... r .. get back on i't. Okay, ::.."l.ank you. MR. n!OHS: :-tr. C."la.i~.an, .:.n connectior. '..J!.t.'l -=.'lis par-:.icular sec~on, I would lika firs:. of al:, of course, ~ dl.sassoc1.a:.e myself wi::.."'l t!.1e reference :.ha:. -:::; f:ie!'ld !'::or:'l 3cna·tist:a :lo::o;.;.• r.:aCe a couple o! :irr.es, t.'la:: .I:: a :.~inks ::.is :::-..i:::ist.e:: is a c;-::cC rr.inis:.~:. cert.a.l:-.ly do no-: t.'liM :..'i.is nu.nis:er is a ;cod ::-.i:-.is":.er. f.e ,..,.oul=. !".o:: 3730

:-<ovel:lbe:: 29, l$79 :·S - 2 of tile people of t.!.U$ ?::O'I.tince properey taxes and :egional gove:n:nen1:. :·ta1be ~'le ,..,.hole exe:::ise is useless an:r .. ,..a:r-: it. cer':air-.ly p::-oved eo be useless in t.':e cie!:e.::.e on 7.'le Ha~:i::tcnial ?rope::-t:ias Ace •. :.ver-i· time ..,e ::taC:e a s•..:.ggesuon !or a reasonable a..'"!Bnti..-:ent. ~ t..'le act, t.'1.en ·.,e were told. by ";..'-te Min.i..at.er of J1,1SU,ce, ;oho is su:..ba:..'li::.g :o· .. ·n i:. .:-tew Zeala..d sor..ewhere,.. :lew, t.'la't. is ::ct:. called fc::. That. is where' he is, is he not.?

A.'1yway, we we:e :old by e..'le !tinist:.~r of ;us:;.ice t..'la': •1;t-., you have a Even :hough i:. is ·.J:o:.g, i: is still. :.:--.e P.OliC"f, a.:1d cu:::- ?Olic:"J ~~· ::.e w::ong, but. we a::e st.:.ll gol.;.g :.o p1.:::. i: ;..... :-.<J~i. :::.::::..::.: That is ri:;h:.. now.

Eve:y ·ti.;ne 'IJe suggest. a ::easonai::le ~en~e:;.t., ";..'-:.en ·,..e fin:i t."::e whole frone b~n~'1 over t..'1e::~ :o te ~ose. ?ig-~eaCeci anci ~~utCorn. and be co~ so suc!C.enl:t C.efensi·.-e, ..... ~ene"'er .,..e sugges:: wnat. .,..e cor:- t.o Co.-·•tu~~ A.". r.ou.r and .a hal! age- ·•as t.o agree :.o def~r.e ::-..e. ·.o~c:-.:. cit.y in Sec':.ion 2 of t."lis ac't., a.r.d ~o~e .... oulC. have ca.r::ie:! or:. :io-..· .,..hat. is so :!."l.:easonable about t: .. :"tae? Sut. r.o, t."'.e ::::.nis:e: :.a:. t.o ge: ?is--neacieci and had t.o ge-:.

St.l!::bor:'l., a..".d. ha:i :.o ge: C.ei;:!as:.ve aocu:. ::..-..:.s. pa..-e.icular

section of t..."'.e act. So :.~hat. are we C.Oir.q? I: is j'..:St. lii<.e t.'le co:wolu::ed logic : heard in ccr.nec~on wit.'t a.r.ot.'1er sec::icn of t.iis act t..,e ot.."ler day when d.i.sc".!Ssing :.:..,e public t.enderi::g aspect. of t..'le ace. The logic is, t.'le reasoning is 1 t.."'.e t:'!unicipal act. in that ?a.=tic•.tla::

section is detective. The ?~lie Tende::ing Ac:, ! ho::;e '!..'le ?::-es:.Cent. o:: t."le Council '"'ill fo::-;ive ::-..=. seel.:-.g i:. is his Paby, ~u:: :.'i.e ?t:blic :en=.a::ir:; Act. is ciefec':.ive, it. fc:-ces :':'.!.nisters of t."-te C:-own t.o ?ar· ::-.ore =~= cer':.ain mat.e::!.als,·•he:-e t.:'1ey are ext:.enC.ing a con::ra::t., t::.an i! :..1.ey :;.ao 3731.

:sovember 2.9, 1979 Tape 1484 :1B - J prices. so r ask t.'le :d.nis-:.e.r '-'h'/ :10t-;.- a W::'f si.."'tple a..oenci..~n: _ hll "t.l.tey had to do was instead of saying e..:,.e sa....~ u..-..it prices is say t..."'U!I same or lower unit prices, .lskino; ':.0 put in two worcis !:-"lat. would ena.ble t.."".is government to :;ave :.'le t.axpayers of :..'lis P:o•r,ri,nce t."tousa.'lCs, a..'ld t."l.ousa..-.C.S, a.-~d t.."lousand.s o! dollars. - '::.~at do ! get?- Oh no, t."le P~lie 'rendering Act is defective, t.."lere!ore t.."l.is Mun.ici;a! Ac':. must Ce def.ac:ive as well.

What convolu":eci. logic, ..,.hat pi.g-headed..'less, '•tnat. Sti.!.Ooo:ness. I ..,.ant t."lrou:;h t."lis !:'.l.St.ration when we ...,ere talking about. t."le }!atri:nonial Proper":ies i-.c't. .! car. see no•· t.'lat ·o~e are going to have t."le sa:r.e: f:u.s-:.ra:ion in :alking abou-:. :.1.~ t.."le MU."lic.ipali:.ies Act. hll we are doing is ::"fins to do a jcb. '.ie are giving raason~le, what <~e consiC.e: :.o be reasonable 'ar..end.":'.en:.s t:o t."l.e act:, ar.d what cio we get.? Pie get. t."'li! Oac/.. of :h.e :ninist.er up rig:-.: a·.ta:. 3732

S:J - St'..:.l:::l::orn and de.!ensi ·.;e. Sit Co•..:r- I do net:. car-= ;.;hi:h ·.,;a.'J ."'.e ~ces i:.; l:. is :roba.Ll:r gc1.:-.g to be •,;rong . .,~ici".ever ;;a:; ~.1!:! C.oes it; o::::v.:.sc~sl:.-·, ii' yc:;. rea::! :.:-.is fr:::m w:te:-. sne ..... Coll.ir.sl has not. read :."'--= J.ct;. o: s1:e1=, r a. .. sayi:-.g t.ha':. 'fOO.:. J.re stubl:::orn, you are ?ig-hea ,:d. a:-.c! you .J.re .:le:!ensive a:::! every :.ime ·..;e ask fer a reasona!:!.e !.~er. :::enc :.:-.J.s ::: .. :... :;:;::s: 3733

s:;, - : :-:.r. Chair:r..a.n, t.'u.t: is sit::.ply \oiltat. we are asking !o.r anC. ~ .. a ::a:m:~~ ;e:. 'ir.r :o-o~e:-a:.ion.

I :.:ea.n, :.his eva:y time he seood on his fee~ in the first session ~n ~is hC?t.tse., was ~yir.g - !:::e so ve::::-1 co-op,;;:a::iva. tihat do ;.~e !i::.d The ncr •• Preside:-.t c£ t.:'l.e Ccur.:::i:. rerrw.rk:l he :;a..:.e - it. is not a. case of bel...'1g stubborn, .... e have acce?t:ed :...;.e ~enc:, onl:? after sone verj, verJ ca:eful :::cns.lde:ation o: all '.::wse i;;!p:.i::atior.s. ;/ow :. .• c: hon. me...."1.be.r, I c!o not know .... het:.her he ;.;as here in e."le Hc-.:se :...1.e ocher cia,;', but the :r.em.ber :c:: the St:ai'.:s of Belle Isle {:tr, ;::. ?.c!:ocrts) gee ·.:.p .:.n Co;r.::1it-::.ee and. ::tacie ·..;::at was a •Jery valid obse=va::ion wi:.h respect. to a cert::.air~ a-..at::.e.r of aat.:.:.=.onia.:.. ?rope~y Act ~~t we had accepted.

MR. THOMS: can be di!ferences c: Ofi:ion bc~~e~~ rea~or.~tle gentl~~en. Despi~e wr~~ we say frcm ~~me to ~~. ~he:e a:e reasonabl~ qen"::.ler.en on t:.: ... e oth.e: si~e ,as: I am so.:..::e t."-:e .1.~n. Z!e::ll.-~r concedes ehere are reasona.tle ;entle::-.an eve:: h~re. iie really de. r-.ot sc:e like '.:!".e !'.or •• geut.le!':':an is s::a::ing ~s rosi:.icn a..i !::.eing Hol:r' Wri:. Z.;~! ar. just. s:ayil"'.g, ;·ou k.,-,.ow, fro:::. our pocr,hl.l!':'.b.l.e _::csi:..i::m, 3734

:l'ove.:n.ber 19, 1979 3::; - 3 anci ccnsiCered .1ll uf i':.s i::.ptica:;i-;!:-.S :.ou: a!eer :.Our, "'e do :-.ot. 3eca~se ci~ies are ~e!L~ed alreaCy i~ our statut.e law. There are two citias in ~~s Provinca, the City of St~ John's ar~ ~~ere i~ th.e Cit::J of Corner Eroo;..; bot.1. o: the.':i :.a·;e t.:;en dcfineC. ur,C.er our axist~~g 3tatutes. !f ~~ere are any other cities ~1.at grew up, as there probably ·,o~ill be U."'l.der :.his a.C..":li:oistrat.ion, tecause :rcs?erity see:~rs to be abou.r.di.:":.g in the past six !':lont.!':.s- near, hear. 3735

t!ove=:ber 29, 1979 Tape No. 1486 ?.Al - :.:te:e w!.ll be other acts •.Jit..'l ct:."ter cities and t.~at goes wh~re it <;.'ill apply to. t:cw when you a.ra talkir.g al:lout making acenCments in cct:::l..it~e 1 you have to be pretty ca:eful you know as to what yo~ are doir.g~ all of a sudden you just pick out ar. amenciment-this is t!te way it should go in a.~C. , you know,what have you. F:~ what! have heard f:cm t.~e other side 1 despite t..'le persuasive been pu:sued, .:.

C.o r:.ot myself feel :..'1-at t.'·:u.!!:re is at'l.y necessity t: d.e!ir:."! the word ci:.ies. ':he city of St., John's and e.'1e ciey of Corner a:cok arc i t.:.es - t:ct true.

Now t..1.is is t.'le ~oint. you sae, now. '!'he hen. :ne:r.ber sa:ts :..~at:. is r.ot :.rue T~is gets to the whole ;~st =f t...,e whole reason wh'l t.1;.~ poir:":: is !::le.:.:J.g ha=ered. in t.'1.e !irst ~lac2, !'hey want to ::e able to give t.'-1e itr.pression ~'lat t."'.is !::ill applies d.!.:ec<:lJ to :ities, as C.i:ect.!.:t to cities as it does to town and municipalities- whi~~ it does not, ~e regional government AS~ect of ~'-1is bill a~plies or can app lJ"- Cces not apply now, can a.;::p ly-to cities.

There can i::e regional govern:ner.:s relati:<; eo the city of St., Jch."l'S and the city of Corner Brooi;; bUt it de :-.ct, ! ::,eg your ;a:C:cr. r ·~ .-.r .• ! art not a la.,·yer ,as ! said ,ar.C : ax:. just reading a - I had co~e to ~~e conclusion, I :ust con!ess r was pre- pared to acce~t ~hat you just said. : was prepared to accept that ~ .. e reason you C.o net. need to define city and ~"le defir.ition is that there are other acts e...~at de fL"le city. A!l P..CN, ~"'.EtR: ':hat is right:. J.!".R. L.

S':'IP.!.I~G: -and t.~e.re tore a.e=ept that: until, and t...'1erefore I saiC., Well now 1 U."'l.C.er t.l;.e regic:.al goverr.- ment, new obviously i! t:.~ey did not need. t...~e power t.~ey ~ou!d not put it in, but. under tr.e :egicca.l governn:er.t set~?.

".J!':.ere it says t.."le ca!::i!'l.et, "Th<2 r..ieuter.t.a.'1t.-::Cver!'l.or in c::uncil :nay by order st:ate :.he ancillary powers t.ha-:. zay be exercised by a regional ccu."l.c.il - it goes or. - wi:hout. linl.lt.ing e.'1e genera.l.it:y,may state- the regional counc.ll :r.ay.::::t does not. say e.""<clud.!ng :.he C.i-:.y of SL Joh..'"'.,' s nnd Co:':'te: Srock. Jo it one way or the ot.'"ter,· say exc.luC- 3736

Novetr.l:er 29, 1979 ?.A2 :-!F .• L. S':'!?.!.:!;G; ing the city o;: St, John's and Corne::: 3.rcok and r ;.r;,.l: be ;-,appy. .;s ! ur.ders';..lnd ·.what i: says here is acquire a::y c: t.,_e fixed assets o: t.he o.unici?ali:y and cities.

No·.o~ I was prepared to accept ~hat you said, t!-.ere is no need to de.fina eity because ci:y is defined and ~ha.t · •. :a :aean l:::y regional govert'UI'tent, i! ~e se:. up a . :egional goverr.::tent in this ur!:lan a:::ea it is alreaC.y defbed else;..;he!'e and when we say w~ can acquire any of ~~e fixed ~sse:s in t.~e :unicipalities and cities i: :nea."ls ;:z a.not..'-ler ac~, that :ll~;..'ls ;.re ca."'! acquire t:.e asse t:.s ~= t:.te city cf St. ;ohn's and t..~e citJ of Corner B:::ock and if you do no: n~eci to cio t.~at, why t!o you not just. cai:e t.'1.e ieferenca ou: cZ there-: New, i! the h9n. gent.leNn -..·ill ;er.:-.i:., ·...-e are net t:yi::g to legistrate underneath tl".e ca...--pet. or .an:r·t!".l.ng, !':was cade quite plaL~ Ch, oh! ... never ::-..inci now, this was made q-..:.i :.a plain in secon: reading l::y c.:...e :ninister, it -...as c;u!.t.e plain bi' eve:yor.e speaking over here, ever'fboCy represent;.ng the city of St.

Jcl" .. .,'s is -..·ell aware of 1.:: and ~1.ey are all over en ::tis sic!e, everyone represent.:.ng -:.~e ot!'!er city, the city of Corner arock , is affec~=C. ~r~ they are all over on t!-.is sicie are all a"Nare of !. t SC!A.E !iC~; • .:-E:HBEF..S: Ch, ob.. The Feint is it was neve: intencieci :.c ~roVJ.Ce t:.,at there could not be regional ;over:-.:nent invclvi!lS' t..":e ci-::; cf St. Jo~'s or ~,e city of corner Brook. SOME HCN • ME..'1E E.ttS: ~R. MARSHALL: It was never intended to ~reelucie :..,e operation of a regional governreent affecting :..~ese me~ropolitan areas. :11'..

ST!?.Z..I!1C: So you are now sayir.g it c!oes illcl·.1C.e t..,e.m , this bill dces i."'lclud.e t.."le ci:.y o.Z. St. John's ar.cl Co::ne::: Breck. 1 a.:n saying that :.":.i..s bill ,::ri::;a.:i..:.::· and directly af!ec:s :..l.:.e t:.U."'licipalities t...."'!C. t..\e ':own ccur.cils ot."l.t!r t:l".a.-; the cities of s:.. Jc:,:c's a."':C :.':e ::it:y of Co=r.er Breck. ~by clo you not: {inaudi~le) 3737

~ovember 29, 1979 I am saying t:."J.at: :.l..ese councils right new are ;over:1ed !:y the Ci o:y of St. John's ,\ct:. a."ld t.l-:e _City o.f Corner Brook Act. I a:n saying that there is not..l:ir.g i..'\ t..~is till , when His Honour gives ~ssent. <;.o ~!;.is bill,t.''l.ere is absolutely not."ting in this bill from t:."te ti::le His Honour.gives ~ssen't. which, will i:.t:::ediatel7 ef!ect t±.e city c.f St. John's and. the city of Corr.er B::'Ook., it w!.ll i:.mediately e.::fect ot.."J.e: tOioT, COWlcils arou."lC.,but not t."J.ese~ Eut it. is cr.fst:al clear ir. t::O.e act t..l.:at. t..'le :hat 'Je a::e ~ot going to exclude :..."le city of st. John'::; from the o?eration 3738

Nover.tle:: i!9, l9 i9 Tape 1487 tc - l of regional gcvernmen: if .i':. is Cenefi::ial, or '!.he cit:y of Cor:1e:: arcok or any ot.l'ler city, :;ow : . ."'lat: .1.s en:i.re- ly eon.:ais:an t:. .,..it.!1 what. the minister says 1and. :.hat is why .Secticn 309 is there, and also there is no need., absolut.ely no t • .:!ed - and, you k.>J.ow, I do r.ot want. to .!Xj?ress rcy opinion like ':he hen. mec-.ber did, Cecause, as I say, he is a reasonable ma..-:.. 'I'hey a~ all reasonable men on t.. ... e ct.'-ler side and t."ley can have views - but: I say that t.'lis qov;e::nment:. is always ready a..-.d '"'ill.l.ng :o a.c::ee?t reasonable sugges e.ions in commit~es for al:era.t.ions whie."l '"'ill st:engtilen :.he bill, a..-:.d i: will continue to :0 so. aut. ~'lers is r.o need, L'l our opinion, :o alter t..''le definition to include cities in <:.'lis t.hi~g. !low, ..,.e CJ..."'l talk abou: it until 't!'.e cows come home, ~ut. that. is, you know, until we near somet."ling else t.."'.at. ·.tould give us - :he reasons t.."'.at n~ve been given ':.y c..-.e gen':.le:r,en en ':he ot.~er side who has spoken, wi~~ e.'le c;reatest respec<: to all of thee who have spoken, hav~ not mov~d us to consider ~~at it is necessa...-y :.o do it. :•ow, you gentlemen over e."l.ere :::ay :ig~e i::. is, :::u::. t."la.t is no: - (Inaudible). ::o, t.hat is not t.."le sit:uat.ion. {!naudi!::lle). }lonsense!

Would t..'te ?=esid.ent. of t."le Co~.cil {~. Ma=shall) agree :o t..~s? ! asked the quest~on in w"l.is House and i! you .,...ill lock at. the vordir.g o:: t."'.e ques'tion that: I asker! recently, it should not have provoked t.'1.e President of t.'1.e Col!llcil in t.:O,.e wa'J t:..:.:.a: it. did. But it qot into calling it political foot:!::la.J.l anci t:nat. sort: of t.i.ing. I am beginning to learn t..~at i! lagislat.ion does no: have everyt.'-:.ing set. out in it, like penalties and things lii<.e tltat., it. Coes not operate. !.ike, !or ax~"tple, :.:,e ?'..!l::lic Tender Act.

I a.o. nQ\ol told t.."lat :.'le :.l-.ing t.'lat ..:pset somebody was t..'oat I re fer::ed to soe:ee.:...ing l.:.ke charges and t.1.a:. ::.i1arges in a la ... yer' s opinion :naan c.ri;:-.inality and :."l.a't under

an act., if you really want. :o .3739

ttove::!::le!" 29, 1979 Ta;:e l~a7 :c - 2 have a penal':"/ like saying a ::u.nis~e:- who breaks ~~a ?ublic Tendering Ace shculC be dis~ssed, you haci =ee~er put t.'1at in che bi.!.l, because if you Co :.oe put e..'-lat in t.1e Oill, t.i.1..en t.~ere is no mea."ls of getting somet . .'"ling done about it. ;;ow, r a.m. hcnf!s~:r tr"Jing eo ::.::.C. out fro:n t:.'l.e P=esident of t.,_e Council (Xr. xarshal.!.l ... and lee 1.!.S aqree ':.":.at there ..-ill be tir:les of political points and e...,ere ..,.ill :::e ti::;es when ...,.e are hones1:!y trying :o do so~:~e::..:,ing on .both sidas of the House .... :.en ,..,.e ce t:;ing to geo; e..:.,.:ough a piece of i:rof!o.:tal"'.'::. legis.!.ac.ion. :'he ?::esicient of t.."l..e Cou."\cil has sa.ici, "If :.his bill. pas~ed in it..S ?!:f.!.Sent. s:.ate, 1.: 'Jill :u::lt affect :..'1e city of St.

Jo::.n's or :..'l.e ::it"'/ of aue so :!!a:. i:. is in t."l.e proper contex::, ...,oclC. you not agree :.h.a: on <;he C.ay af::er :;oro:-row, :...: ::he Ca.::.inee. C:!!cicieC: :o, wit."lo•J.-c corning !Jack co t.he House of ~se:n.bly 1 if the C~ir.et se<:. '.!P a regional council fo: :."le urbar, region ur.de: :.'"lis au•:.:tor:.. t"'J ::: f t:.he ac:, t..'lat. t..:,e c!.'::'f t..'la: is refe:r!l!d to could be :.1.e c.:.:;.' of 5.c • ..;cn:.'s and t:"ley c:o~d a.cqui.:e t:."le assets as set. out.f ;..-1 hOJ, :·I::~.!.E?.: Yes, Cour:.cil. That. is o~ay {inaudible). No, serious:.y, 'Jould you answa: :..>at?

I mea."l., you said it :culd no:. happen totr.orrow. I tabled :.~e re~a.:~s ~~de by t..1.e hon. gentle=an about ~~e Public Tende.: Act. I :."li~k ~e had ou.: little - that is ir::elevant. now ar.d I do not . ..,.a.."lt '!O ge'! in":.O ir-relava.. ... C"'l, :·!R. S!!:t:..::<G: ~kay, t.ut ycu :::ar. see t.. ... e Za.ais ur.Cf': .... ~ • .:.:::n 3740

Nove~~er 29, !979 rape 1487 i::C- :! no: make our respec~ve bloods ~oil. Okay. H.? •• acw, as this par:.icular ac-: r.ow is - !A.P •• S'!!'RL.I:IG: ?..ight. it will not, ... ·:.en i-:. is passe::!, regional gcverr~nt. Yes, but your are not answering r:.y quese1.on. these decisions .,ill l:>e :nade l::.y governr..ent in acccrda..~ce wit.'1. :;,e p:ov!.sions '- in t..'1e l:>ill :..tself, a.."\ci t.':.ere J.re ve:;y careful ;;ro~t:.sions. l: ::-.ear., t.::e 'WecigewooC. ?3.r:~ or t:"'.e town o: Y.o~t. ?eel. :.JR.

S':'I ~.:.:~;3: I suppose you coulci -~ any:..'-J..:.ng . .t :nea;:., t.~e powers t.\a:. ~•ave been ;:or.iarreC. - 50 HE EO:;. ;.~ -!B!::?.S: G-h, ch ~ Why not :::rinq it back ':0 -:.~e !-iocsa? 'fou knew 1 t."1e:-e all scr-w; o! £01••e:-s g:anted -:o a Cabinet. '±.at. t."'la Cai.:-in.et. can ~ in all sor:.s of aces; t.'ley are enabling powe:-s, buc t.'le CAbinet is not. going !.o exe.:"cise .3741

Novemter 29, 1979 Tape No. 1488 OW - l !1R. !1ARSP..AL:.: t:...~em except:, nwr.!:ler one, .,...it.."li:l t.he framework of the ace and, number t:·.,..o, most ::-easonably, after due conside.:;ation after consu.!.t.ation, no:. just: :.~it.l': t.."le City of St • .;,or_ ... •;;, but: wit.,. t:he Cit.y of Cor::.er Brook, r.ot just ...,i~~ the Town of Xount:. Pea:l, but: wit.h, indeed, all citizens of ~~e region itself before it is going to do it. That is the ·.,..ay. New if t..'"lat is not so, :he government stands and falls on its decision.

And certainly the best group of people to look after ~'"le interests of t..'"le City of St. John's surel7 ~ust be the people on this si=e of t.~e neuse or, for a ~atter of fact, any urban region because t.."ley have seen fit t.o impose total and ent.i.re, 100 per cent. confidence in ~is gover~~nt. Thank you. :-t.tt. STIRL!.!JG: Thank you, !1r. Chairman. Let. :ne ask the ?res.:s.dent:: of the Council {Hr. :1arshalll - and he is ;uite :dgh.t. - :hat t.he goverr~ent. does ~e~~esent. ~ll of the u:ban seats in :he City of St. John's and ~e Cicy of Corne~ Br~ok.

AH HON. :1E.'•f:!:ER: And in Uew:'oundland. t.1.e urba."". - SOME Hmi. ME."!.E.=.s: Oh, ch! :-1..~. S':'I:U.!~:G: Well, let: us de~l with the two cities, :he City of Corner Brook and the Cit.y o= St.. Jo~ .... ·s. (Inaudible) on the appropria:e ac~. ~. S*!."!RL!~G: Sue t.he ?resident qa·.re '-~tat. appea~ed t~ be a very logical ki::.d of at'l ex;:la.na-:.ion. 3ut. '""hen !. asked hi."!! =or t.he same kind of con!'ir:r.ation ::::e Minister of Finance, · .. 'ho is an honourable man .and a. :nan of fe•N words, the Minister of Finance said, Yes I agree. ~ .... d he represents a city dist:ric-:..

Yet, on the second day- you know the feeling t.hat you have, the sense of feeling ::hat. now that you have been elec-:.ed to represent. the urban areas of St. John's and Corner Brook, that. it really :!oes not make az'l.y diffe:ence, we ca::. just force t..."J.:rough whateve:: ··e war.t, -::he people love us. one of e.::e dist=ict:s represent=d- a ~n by the na:ne of Mayor Sam Co~-"".ors, who is in ::."J.at su.e ~ban a.::ea you are talidng a.bcut, ?U:suar.-: -=.o you.:: 3742

November 29, 1979 Tape No. 1488 rs-2 :elegr~ which the miniseer has refer:ec:i to, "! feel :..1.e auehor:i.t:y should rema.i:l. '"'i~h the House ct Asseml::Hy and not. just. the ·:'abinee. as all :nembe:s of the ::ou;;e are elec":ed .re!;lresent.aeives of ~he pec!:Jle." M..'l"{, AARSH..;I.L: member intend to table that? definitely. HR. MARSHALL: M..~. ST!!U.I!OG: figure I have made up - :1..":"t. ~.Ai'..SP.AL:::.: A point. of orCer. Does ':..1.e hon. Oh all of it, 5efinieely. Oh yes, We would like e.o see ehe - Oh, su<re, no question. r.:nless you No, no, no. ! would nee • ~n t.~ac point of or~er, Mr.

Speaker, I ~uld never, never :i.nsinuace t.hat the hon. member or a:1.y member made up anything but it is just the rules o: ehis House t:Oa't. 'Nhen somebody, you kno...,, quotes f:-om a d.ocu:nene it has to be tabled. So, you know, if the hon. member is quocing :ro~ a teleg:am i~ shoul~ repose here with the records of ~he House :or posterity sa.'<e. I will do, right. I am sure ':1'f learned !=ienC., :1r.

Chairman, ...,ould be only coo ':la;?py to file che telegrams he has and, of course, if the ?resi::ient of the Council (t-b:·. :tarshalll would like another thir't.een or ::curteen sucn telegra::~S he :nigh':. easily obta~n them from my districc. !<!R • .MARSHALL: I would be •;ery ir.t~res ted, ver'f interes::.ed. MP.. MORGAN: {Inaudible) e•.re:y councl.l in the Province. MR. ST!?..Ln:G: ~.

Chai~~. r am glad that the members have brough't. it ~p because r =onsicler it ~~e duty of the members of ':his si:ie of e.!'le House ':hac it e.ha people on the ocher side of 't..'-.e House ccnsider ':hat t:hey Co ::ot: need ::o .'..nfor.n -:he the Federatl.on of ~~~icipali:ies bu't. r repeat, again, I have respec-: 3743

November 29, 1979 Tape :-Ia, 1439 :3-3 :t.tt. ST!RLI~1G: for ~~e ~inls~er of ~u~icipal Affairs. ~~d if you are no~ going :o do your job, if you are ~ot going ~o do ~"l.e job of informing your :::oun:::ils of '4hat: is !:)eing done, then by a 11 means I consider ic our :esponsibility >::a fill t:..'-le vacuum lef~ by ?:)U people who have not: sent cue ~"l.e informa:ion. And I ~e no apology. As a matter of fact, I will do the same thing again on any ot~er piec~ of legisla~ion ~~less t:..~e oinister agrees who set it out. Set-tE HON, Y-=''13EP.S: Oh, oh! The same people who saved the hon. gentleman's press releases.

M?... ST!?.LI!iG: The same people who are going to ?aY all ~~e t~~es in this Province. 3744

!lovember 29, 1979, Tape 1499, Page 1 -- apb SO$ EON. ~'!BE?~: MR. CF.A!?J'A.~ (Bai:::-d) : SCM£ HON. !10!BEF.S: M:lt. CHAIF.Mi\.'l: MR. XOP.GA.'l: A.."i HON. ME.\!BER: value. MR. C?,.AIR. .. !.~N: Ch, oh: Shall clause 2 carry? Oh, oh ~ Order, please~ A waste of the taxpayers' money. Cheaper ~~an one minister and better The hen. ~e ~e~er for Bor.avista Ncr~. Mr. Cb.air.:an, I ~"tin.k. :."le t:.h.ing ~at ;.oe have established at ~~is point - AJl HON. ~!-!BE?.: got Roger's seat. SC!1E: Hml • ~'3 EES : !<!a. ST!?.LIHG: He did what Walter carter could not, he Hear, hear~ I think, :-!::.

Chair:nan, t..~e :.hing that •..Je have establish~d at ~"lis ?oint is that ~"lis Regional Gove~~ent Act ver1 definitely does apply eo both -=.he City of St. John's and :.he City of Corner Brook. AN HO~i. ME!-!BSR: Of course it does. :-!!'..

S'I':?.r..::;G: And t."lat al<;.hough - and I thi:-.k <:..":.at ::..e Minister of !1unicipal A!=a~rs has been dor.e an injustice by his colleagues because :..'ley ha•;e 3...!.lowed hi::l co say to ::..1-:.e peopls of St . .John's anc. e.,e people of Corner Brook, 'Relax, do not -...orr.{ al::out i ':, you a:e not affec'ted by this ac't.' And ~:.~-=Y have now ac.m.i::.'te':i AN HON. MDSER: What clause are you on? MR. STI?.LING: - we no admit it under

definitions, under

definitions 1 ;.;.e have nco;.,· gotten agreement !:om ~e government: that because e.~s side of ~":.e House made t.~e govern~en't recognize that: you ca~~ot slip a veri important sec~on of ~,e act, like the Regional Goverru:~er.:t: Act, in and slip in cities, :-.ot defined, but 'He have established, 'He now have aqreem.e::.t for a nwr.ber o:: th.ings. cr.e is that regiot'.al governmen't can apply on the day after this is procla.i::~ed - the !iinist:e:::- o= ::":!..."lance ag:::-ees - on ~i.e day aft,;;r :his is ?roclai::~eC.,i£ t..'le Cabir.et so ~esires, regional government can be brou;ht in t.."lat: will 3745

!~vember 29, 1979, Tape 1439, Page 2 -- apb ~. STL~IG: City of Corner Srook.. I have taken it t..~at we have establisheC. t:h.a: the minister will take it u.~der advisement, whe~~er or ~c::. he is actually going to define t..lte cities. MR. CF..AIP-"'-:...."1: Affairs and P.ousing. on motion, clauses 2 through 9, carried. The hon. t..~e :<Jinis'ter of :.-!unicipal !-!.B.. WINDSOR: I assume you have called clause D, :1%'. Chairman. Have you? MR. CHAIP.M.;N: !-!.R. WI}.'TJSOR: Shall clause 10, carr!? Mr.

Chairman, on clau.se !.0("2) :ny colleague t..~e President of the cou.~cil, if he ~e:u~s L~ ti~e. will be ~reposing a sligh't arnen~~ent,basically,in clause 10, sec'tion :. The word 'town' is st--uck ou't and ~,.e word 'municipali'ty' rep:ac=d. aasically, all this does is change t.~e • ... urd, pu-::s L~ ':::unidpali'ty' where the word 'town' was. It is quite si:r.ple ant:! straightfor .. ·a:::L AN HON •• ..r.:-st:?.: Ca.r:y? XR. CHA:R.'1A1-l: Shall clause 1 - MR. RCS~F.TS: '!'he minister canr.ot !:'.ove his o .... T. amend:r,ent:. :1R. "..l!NDSOR: ~ro, no. The neuse Leace:- i.s ;oi:-.g t:.~ 1n0ve the me t.ion .

MR. ~~HALL: I t:.~ought I haC •.:hispe::ed to :!'.e - MR. ROBERTS: Oh, no, open gove.r:-.rl'.ent :.s O!?e~ government. Open gove~ment, Mr. Chairm~n. in order to make it official, I :rove t:.he arnend:r.ent o£ clause 2{2) by striking out. - A."i HON. ME."!B::R: !1R • :-ru..5 P..A.!..L : 10(2). 10 \2)- by striking out:. :..1-:e ...,o:C. ''::own' and t..~e worC 'm~~icipality' replaces it so that.

section 10~2} would read; ''•rlhe::e a nocice of intent. i:; :o be .;:ublished by t.he :·!i:-.iste:- ur.der s'..!bsec-::ion (!) t:.'"l.at. directly af:ect:.s a munici;:ali::y, ':..'"1e Minister shall give a prior notification of his intent: to so publi$~ it t.o :..1-te council of t.."lao; :nunicipality."

November 29, 1979, Tape l499, ?age 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Do you want to put the a::.enc!ment 7 A!-1 HON. ME.'13E?.! (Inaudible) . I am prepared to ha •,"'e :..~e amendment:, bue :r cannot speak for anybody else. on motion, amendme~t, carried. MR. ROBERTS: In t...~e unlikely event t:he ;cve::nment do somet...~i."'lg sensible, we a:e prepared to go along with it:. Could I come back to clause - we are still on t...~at group, are ~e? one to one? AN HON. !S."1SER: One <O nine. ""· ?.OEE:R':'S: One to nine. !i..~. !-!AF.SHA!.L: We have passed that. ""· P.OB~TS: We did it? Well., I will r:1ise .l.t under

section 16 then unless I am given leave :.o revert :.o

section 4. It is all the same to :ne. I will not ask questions about: sectior. 4, but, I mean, I can do it ~~der

section 16 because ~~ey are related, one to t:he other. !1R. ~RSHAL::.: To show, ~.r. Chairman - t:..':.e hen. mer..b.:r was out of Commi.t;tee a :'!'!Oment. age when I ~o~as s::ea.~ing of ho·...­ cc-operative t:..':.e government wished to be, and t:his is an exa~pte o= how co-operacive ~~e governmen~ is. ~e are qui:e happy t:o revert: ~o

section 4. !"-l:t. ROB ER':'S : Your Honour, I ~ank ~y learr.ed friend. There is .a very old saying, "9ewa.re of Greeks bearing gi£ts", and! say, 'Beware of ~.arshalls bearing forces', you kno•H. 374'7

Tape 1490 E;C - l Jh, on! :-t.D.. F.OSt?'.'!'S: However, be that AS it t:'.ay, I a:n gra.tef".ll to cy hon. friend. and ... ta.<e his ••orC.S in exac~y ':.~e. :lpirit. in wr~~~ ~~ey were proffered, Sir. r just w~~ted t~ ask - Sec~cn 4 (2) w~1ic.lt relates to Sec~on l6. I assura -.,.on. gcn:tl.e."ll.en cp;csite, I ~~ink I have enough wit ~ut me - at least hal!way ~ere, ':.0 - ~4 5TA-:;G; !iit. FDSERTS: C.!bine:. - !!?.. RCSE?.::S: I am glaG you realize ~~at, (Inaudible) . h'as r gci:lg to have :o wha:::? Are you going to have ':0 Una~.:d.ib:.

e) i~o, 't...1.e hen. gentletr.a.."l si1.o1.;lC root on, on~ and ten or e..relve ahcaC. of '!."'.e Ch, oh; 'lour iio:-.our lS being 'Nn-!.sz:e::ec. at. for some reason. Pees 'lour :ionour ·..ra.."t':. t.o do so::e:.."t!.r:g'? Go a.heaC, I Wlll :tielci to Your Honour. In accordance wi. -:..1. standing QrC.er Jl (~:) , I rise so the Speaker may i.."tdi::ate the !:'.atters t;~ be raisec! at :...~e Late Show. ~~. SPEAKER: (Si~

s) Order, please! It is now S:OO ? .!·!, and ! can infor.n t.he House t.'la.t! have received notice of or.e maeter for debate ae 5:30 ?,:·1, 1 'Jhen a :notion to acljour:l will be d.~emed to be c'.!fore tile House. \~oo;!.:e is qiven by ~"le hon. ';..'-te ::e~.Oer !cr Sonavist.a ~:or-... "'1 (!A.r. SCrling), ar:..sir.g 3748

Nove::-.ber Z9, 19i9 !-IR. c:H;..IR.'-!.A!i: ( SairC) Qelle Isle, Tape 1490 ::: - 2 M.P.. roa£.a'!'S • Your Honou=, ! was speaking wi t.'i. :-eferer-:e t:.:J Sect:..ion 4, a.nd ! ·.rc'uld say :o ey non. !:!.end !:-om 3or.avist.a Souo;;.o Wr. :·tor;anl t;.;,.at just so .,..e have '!he facts for t:.~e ::ecord, :'l.e :.as lest:. t..loirty-t..'tree and one-third per cent:.. of t~e co:;;.:.est:s in ..,.hic.'t :-,e r.as engaged. to dace. My record is one out o! eight, • .. ·::.ich. l.S t.;elve a...'"l.ti one­ hal! per cent., which :::ear.s t..-.,.at:. ;.,e is t:.:;,:ee :i:r.es as baC. as ::: a::t, .anC.

I t..~M ~'tat. is a pro tty fa.ir ::atio. ! would t..'"lir-..:.; t..'la-:. X?.. S'rAGG: That is pret.t.y bad. :-t:t, ?.OSER'I"S: Yes 1 t:..'tat. is prett:..y bad, I ...,ould say t:..o my friend fro~ St:ephenville (Hr. Stagg). Anybody wno is t.~ree ~tr£s as bad as I a.:t is pret:.cy bad inC.aed, and t:...'tat:.. is not even getting close to =rJ friend !roo Stephenville. MR. ?..CSE? • .'!S t MR. STAGG: ~;ow, t:..o eo me ~a!:k to Sect.:.. or .... ! ~ ~~ree !or ~~rea ~fst::. 1 am sor:-y? all he !.acks is t:...'1e courage to go ·.;hen he k.~ows he is ;oJ.r.g eo !.osa a.~.::.

I pre.Cict:.. he will r.~e r'.m aga.!.n L~ t:...'tree o: !ol.!r years when :.'1e Fre::.ie:: ciissolves. :-t?.. 5 'IAGG : r am :..'"linking a.Zot.:.t:.. going dow~ :o t..'le Serait o: 3elle Isle. :-m. ~BE?.TS t : hope ~~at:.. :.~e hon, gentleo~'"l woulC corr.e down t.o the Strait of aelle Isle ar.d he '.JOulC. not ecce :ack. ne wot.:.ld go dow~ there but. he would not come bac.tc.

He is too smart !or t:..'tat. i.'hat woul::i happen t:.o t:..1.e ~n. gentlemar., Sir, woulC. ::~a.ke what. happeneC. i::. i:l' ar-:1 :·t<:Gee look like just. a ·.rarm-'.llJ qaJr.e and :.:-.ere :..'i.e ~era!. :;ot 97 per cent of t:...~e "JOte. ;,.:1d : .... oul=. 3749

Hove:::ber 29, 1979 'l'ape 1..;91) 2C - J MR. PDSERTS: and t.'1e o:.he::- ·nte ·.•ould be spoiled. Sow, Sir, as ·..,.e ..,.e:e saying l::le!o:e I was so rudely in:.e:-rup:.aci '::Jy :.''le gentleman from St.ej?i1envi!.le {:1::. Sta;gl 1 who I '"'Oulc! point o..:-:. t:o 'iour Honou: is out of order - SOME HO:i. :fE.!-SERS: Hear, hear! MR. ?.OSE?.'TS : - as he frequently is. He is noc in his seat. We need a seat ~elt for ~,e han. gentleman. SOME m::<t, :r.:''-!SE?S: Oh, ch! MP.. PLiSEF.TS : :-lot even his ;:ar<:.i' can keep him :.:1 his sea:. :;c.,.. 1 Si: 1 I say t.o t:.'le gen:.!e=.a.-. !r:::r..

St.ephenville, ~e o~qht eo go bac.."':. t.o t:.'le law anci a."l.swe::- his let::te:s, SOME EC•i. :·!E.:1E.ERS: Oh, oh! Hlt. C1AIR!·1A..l: (Bai:d) ?.eleva.."l.c:e. i?::ayer says, 1 :.ead us no<;. int.o te:::pt.ation, • and. ,....e :1eecl to .1even t:.o :..~at, Si:, because ! am 1e:l in:.o te::'lpt.at.ion. I am just: led as-:.::-a·:' :.y hen. gent.le~2n opposite, • "!..~ .. BARP.ETT: MR. OOBEF.':'S: Fina..'1ee {D::- ..... Collins l , .,..as it.? (Mr. aa.::ret-:.)? Now, to come back to Sec~on ... t:asily lee. • I am scr:::-"j. :·ly f::-ienC.. :..-.e :·u.nister c! o:- t.."l.e gentleman :ro~ 5:. • ..:onn•;; 'fias:.

The gentie:r.an f:or:: St • .:onn's ;.;~s:.. 1 see. T~e r..inis:.e:- is not guilty, Would t."te gentlema.."l. from St. John's West ca:e to r~pea-:. t:.~at. for :..'".e benefit of us all. AN fiCH, ME!1BER: MR. ROBE:?.TS: The l.aader of t.'le Opposition ll'.r.s:. ~e e.as:ilv ler!. I agree I am 'easily led' and if I •·•e re easily dt:?ed, r .,..auld be '..rhe::e t.'le ben. gentler:tan is, as cp,?os~C. :o ·..;r.e::-.: I am. P.elevane:,.: please. I :.."link :..'lat is 'i:Uite :-eleva::.t., Sir. I t..'link t.."l.e ion.. gent.lena."l is verf easily mlSled if ne ineends :0 vot; 3750

;..;ovet:lber 29, l979 ':'ape l49J EC - 4 !1? •• RCBE:~TS: fo::: t..';.is ~ill. I ·,..ould say ~e shoulci go back t.o s:.u.C.ying his book and writ.ing insurance cont.ra:t.s or wnat.ev-=r he was doing.

Section .; , .....-nicb. is where I bega."l. - and I want. t.o t.b..ar.k the ?::esident. of t...-,e Council (."i.r. :-ta.rshall) for allow:.ng t:.a to eo:r.e back to

Section 4, whic.~ saves me raising i:. 1!.'1Cer

Section 16 I want to kr~w whe~1ar ~~e minist.e::: in~ent. is - it. is a wu:t.er of i:nj?lement.at.ion. Sec't.ion 4 {

l) says t.ha.t. an order made under S.a:e~ion 3 - a..".d. Seet.icn 3 is e..:...e general 3751

!Iovem.be.:- 29, 1979 Tape No. 14 '31 GH-1 recommendation of t.l-te minister and af-=.er a :easibilit'l st:u.::l'y eo est.ablisi1 or t~ dis-establish. You ~,ow, it. is t.he power - it is t.he real gucs of the bill i~ that. sense. Now, it is necessa~J in looking at Sec':icn 4 t.o go do~,o,;:. to

Section 16, which says and I belie•re .t. ': is in orde:: t:~ read it, Sir, "The elected or appoin'!.<!d status of existing :own coun.:ils, rural district councils or boards o! local improvement .::l'istricts continue until changed by the Lieutenar.t-Gover:-.or i!'l Council under

Section .:.:' Nhic:~,, of course, as ¥cur Honou.r will appreciate, brings us back. -:o

Section .... whi=h is Nhere we began. And S2ct~dn 4 (

i) and 4 (~

i) and 4 (iii) ;:ve ceruin power to :.he Lieutenant.-<:iove::r.or !.n Cou!'lcil..

Nc'""• "'hat I simply wan'!. to know is how those t.Wo relat.e to one an-::t.l;.er -::r, specific.all:;, ;:erha?s :.:·us is e..1.e bes-;; '.fay to ;u'!. it., is it. t.he minister's intent:.!.c:-. - ar.d remember t.1.is ac-: does no'!. come into force :Hvision ;:y cl.!.visior., i: co:::es .!.n like a ton of :;ricks, 'lO'J. know, on th: :!a•' w!-.-=:-:. i: ce-rnes :.n. ':'he •,.(hole t.,i::g corr.es in a-:: once, holus-bo:.•.:s - is it h.i.s i..,tent..ion to make or::!ecs ::onfi:m.l.ng !:he 309 ccuncils we ha•.re - and he l.S noC.Ci:-.g acqu.:.escence - ehe onl:r· trou.bl: •..:lth <:.hat. :..:::; it. is twofold. :·:t:.::.l::er cne, ! ~~y not have ur.ders:ood hi~. ~,d secondly a nod, ~hile it. may ~e as good as a . ..,.ini<, does not appea: in HansarC..

So, ! invit.e :he minist.~r :o gee to his fee: and tell if ~~ ~~derseanding is corre:::.. 'fou Mo.,., is he going to ma.~e art order under sec'!.ion 3 si:.?li' con!ir=.ing ehe status of every exist~ng ounicipali:y ln ~ewfour.dland as of t.he date of procla~tion Q: :.hl.S ac~. The han. the :-tinister of :1unic.!.pa!. Affairs and Housing. MR. '.it!iDSOR: Well, ~. Chairman, ! 'Jill do as -::he hon. :necber did ar.d start in

Section 16, if I :nay, which refers to local :nent dis-::=ic-::s, ·.rhi::h as hon. gent:.le::tan know ',.(~ll not. really exis-: "ies, they •..till be co:r .. ""ur.~cie=, se:vice areas and - or local service d~s~lc-::s a~d {inaudible). All :..1.is is doi::g he::e is '±.a: i..:1 :..'-le interi~ pe::iod, this .,.ill not hap?en overnigh:., and it will be phased

Nov~er 29, 1979 Tape No. 1491 GF.-2 :.tR. WI!OSO?.: elec-:ions righ~ away, we may hold of! •..:..ntil t..~e nex<:. municipal elections in scme;:ases, which is 1981 I think. auc t.."".e i:lten-:. !.s to move racher quickly, but t..~a~ has to be done on ~~ individual basis. So th.ese c1J.uses, basically the:e for that t.=ansiticn so >:hat we can cake a local imp~ovemen-:. district:, as referred to in Sec':.io~ l~, and change it under

Section 4 1 ".~here we can ::.hen designate it to have an elected status. The hen. me~~er for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROB~RTS: I eh~~ t..~e ~inister and : just WL~t it to be clear. I mean, what he says seems to be very 3e~sible ~nd reascnable, that. ever-J exis~ing ::ouncil will cont.inue Ln t'o:::e ',l."ltil such ti:ne as it is char.ged, and eve:- a ;;:eriod of tJ.r:le t!1.ey ·.;ill all b·2 cor.fi.::ned. Some :nay be confir.:~ed in a new :o:m..

Ha·tir.g :!_!..:;posed of that, c~~ I go on and as~ as a. dt.izen of t.he muni:::ipal:.ty o! -::te !.oc.:al Izprcv~ent Dist.rict of Hogan's ?c~d, what. is ~~e i~tention or is :here one at this stage wit.h respect to ;..rha: is a very small ::un.l.:ipa.ii:~: but a very 7l.bra."'lt. and ef!ect.J.•Je :orce 4:..t.hin :."'.e ·..;or!:! ::.:: :::.unicipal gove:-n:ner:. c. '1J.:Cra."1t:. ar.c! ti:-.aud.i!:;le). 'les, I might poi!".t. o•.:-:., as ::-ty colleague next. t.o me i.ndi:::.:~.t.es, that. :..,_ey a.::-e ce:-"ta;.nly a very economically viable one.

They had ::ero ::evenue, zero ex;;endit.ure a.~d ze:o budget.t.i:'l.g. !>LO.. ROBERTS: aut. a great. zoning cone:::ol. MR. wnmso:t: Sue ~~e quest.ion as it :elates to Hogan's Pond, it w.ay very '-'-911 become, automatically, !..t would seern, :o becom~ a :own council. Tha: ma1 not be desirable for it. :o be a :ull-fledged -:o· .. T. and have all the responsi=ili<;ies and autllorit..ies vested .ln a to~n. ! chink i~ may be more Cesi:able to ciesi;~a-:.e i~ as a local service distri~t, w~ich does not have all o= :ha~ respo~sibi~ity anC ~he electi~r. proceCu:es and ~~~t sort a: ~~i~g. !~ will b~ 3753

~ovember 29, 1979 Belle Isle. !1R. RCB£:t!'S: Tape No. 1491 GH-3 The hen. mer.ber for the Strait of ~ell, I C3n appreciate that the s~~us of the Local Improvement District of Hogan's ?and is ~ar~ly the :op of ehe minister's concerns, ncr should it be, and it is not the top of my concerrs, nor should it be, but it is a concern. : thin.lc ~~e minister may have dealt wi~~ it. ! simply want to say, obviously, whatever will be done, we ass~e ~ill :e done in consultation with the council ~~er~. There is some suggestion it should Cc incorporated into the contiguous town of St.

Phillip's, ~1d I ~o not think r would object to ::.i.at as a citizen of Hogan's ?end. Some of 'l!Y fellow citi:ens may, sea~ ~y not, I ~o not know. ;..N HCN. :.!E!i3ER: !1R.

ROBERTS: 11'hac is :.he f:Opul.ation there no..,·? ! think it is 110, 110, and t.."l.e llO, are no better and no worse than an~where els~. they include Jo~~ cros~ie who li•1es at the rich ?eople' s end and mj·self who lives at: ~he ;cor people's end, and there are a nuroQer of good people ~n ~eeween. i"'.ogan's Pond ...,as set up originally- and, you k."low, i-;. is an anomaly ar~ it may well ~e desirable ~o ~o something in due course - it ~as s~c up originally to ?revent - !<t.R. Wl!'!CSOR: Development control.

M.G.. :tcSEF.':'S: Yes, it was development control anC it ..,as t'..'le only O.ev~ce '"e coul::!. find, and it had an unusual paternity. I believe it was incorporated while r was a me~er o: the Cabinet, and it was re-incorporated 'Mhile :tr. Crosbie was a me!t'~er of -:.he Cabir.e:, and 1 do not think ei~~er of us declared in our Conflict: of Interest statements ~~at we lived at Hogan's Pond. Mr. Crosbie has only a summer residence ehere. DR. COl:.Z.I!!S: !t is not a tax haven. 3754

•tove~r.Cer 29, 1979 Tape l4.92 :-m- H!t. ROBER'lS t :~o. i~ is r.oo;. a tax l-taven, h:.~ as t..'1e minister says, i: is a vert good municipality fir.ar.cially. re :ar.C~=~ no services, and it levies no taxes, but it does have,I :::.elie•te, an. a.dequace set of clevelcpn-.ent ccntrols, and incieeC. is a vert liti;:.cus con:cuni :y. I Delieve t.hey have been l..n the ;ou:-t:.S a nu.:r.oer of :i:::gs enforcing their by-laws, I think, and. I C:."link wit..'l success. :·1:.

David Day, eminent council -who also has a house on Hogan's Pcr.C - ilas represeneecl tilell". in :.er ;~aje:o~::·'s cour:s ... i:h resul~ !avot.ora:::le tc t:.'le cause ::.e .:as advocating. ct.viously the :ratter gees ~eyor.C ~1i.:> J:;ecause t.'1e.::l! are - !t is necessary to conti:~.ue c:~'.lncils, I do no:: need eo go into that.

In the case o! place lii:e EogJ.n 's ?one, _ just '.ia,nted assurance t:}oat nct..'1l.ng ~~o"ill ce C:One ·o~it:'.cut a:. l.<!as:. eons~.:oltir.g t.""le citi.:er.s t.'lere. ~t:,· fea:, quite sirnply, is t:.ha': t.'le.re are some people- noe the council of St. 2hillips t h<iSt:.en '::o aC.d - who t.link :hat:. t:.e trick. is ::o incorporate an area like hcgan's ?one, to levf a wacking great:. ?rope~y :ax ar.C. provide ~o services, because t.he people of Hogan's icnci ~o;oulcl be·r.o Oeo:ter of.! should >:hey be in- co~orateci in eo a ~r.unJ.cipali ti" t..'1.a.."l. :aey a.re eocl.a:t. 'l'hey ::.:.;nt. :..e rr.ueh worse off if they were faeecl. wi::n $500 ~r a SlJOO ~ax bill. ':hat p.rcClern is not uni::;:u~ to Hoga."l.' s r:mC..

L"l t..oe lcr.g run •..;e .3-ll have eo pay whaeever :.'le fair shot:. is as ;:art of the sccie:.y in · ... nid". · .. e live. ! just want:. to be sere it will not be done wi:.'lo~t ~c~sulta:ior.. 21? .• WI!iDSCIR: :.tr.

Chairi:".an, :;.eraars :r. can. jus:. clarify a ;:oufle of points fer ::he hen. gent.lemar.. his q'.last:.icn u well taken by the "'·ay. 'l'he worse tilat could happer. .,.,..;.t::-.out =cnsulcaucn ;:.s ~~at we might: :ake it a town instead of a local irr~rover.en~ distric~. \o'hich would have ~:O:.e owners {inaut!.:.bl£) council a.nd to decicie if t~ey want to tax t:.1.ea.sel·tes or pr~wide any ser--11.ee and t.'1.at sort of ·ching. I cl.o not t:.1.ink chat. is any bu.::Cen c:: anything \.:!'.usual. !! it ~.;ere to be change:: t:.c teccrr.e

part cf s::.. Phillips or an:r,...::tere else, then t..'lat. would r.ave ~ be C.cr.e on t.:J.e ::.as is of a feasibilicy scuC.y •,;hich includes mar.cl.ato!"'f pub!.ic hea:inp. 3755

dove:..Cer 29, 1979 HR.TH0!1S: Tape 1492 ~:a - 2 On i!'.oeion, C1at:..Se 4 ca:::rie:::. Shall c:ause 11 to 20 car:::~? Tl:e hon. ~r.et:ber for Grar,d aar.k.

I · .. ould ll.;<e to ask t..:.,a :r.inister - I would l.D:.e for him t.o give n;e t.be ratior.a.l~ .. 18 (2). for exar.tj?le, I notice says "h11ere a clause is a."'t elec-:ed one it :nay, by resolution ca:::ied Oy two-thirds voce cf: t;:oe councillors in c ffice." tic,.,, :..'lrouqhout. t:.1e act th.ere ;;.:e rr.ar.y, r..any, ::1an1 ci.ecisicns :..~ • .lt can only Oe taken by a t.·..-o-thi:-Cs vote of :_: .... e councillors. 'Io ;:-;e this seec-s to go .a.gainse. t.:.,e nonr.al procec!u.-~. the nor::-,al ..:ay of C.oinq .:.t ~o.'hicil is a si:r.ple :::ajo::ity. '-'"a can defea; t.:.,e 'iOVerrur.ent. on ::.:,is house if ...-e hapfoer. to find less me:..Ders over there :::.y one ~"lan is over hare. ':'he govermr:.ent o£ this Z::ovin~ can i:e de!eat.e:i. the gove:-n.."nent of canaC.a ::.:m ::e defeated by a s!.tt:ple :r.ajorit:y. this \o.ll1ole act 1 "Wner. further eve:- -..e tal/c allout s~srer.zicns, there is l:.t.era1:1 doz.ens cf references l.n :.."Us act: ;.;,1ere it: seet:.s :.o r:-.a t."lat ... e rea.lli do :l.Ot:. t:.rust the cour.c.i.ls t:o ma.K.c t.'l.e ri;hL C4cJ.sior.s, and :.."tat ;.oe are forcing en t.o t.:1.etr. t..r.e two-ti:ir:is ::ule. ::.r.ere is JUSC a VL::'j' si::ple ;uest:.icn - I •·•ould like -:o ask t!.£ :1inis:.e:- if ;;,e cou.ld =:r.~!.ain to =e •hat ~'1e rationale is behind having so tr~ny t~ings in :..'1is act:. gover:-.ed by a t.· .. ·o-t.'1i:-ds •;o:.e. :1::.

C.1ainna.n, basically ...,here :.•e t·,.;c- t.hirds vot:.e is !:>:!<;.uired ·,.;o•.lld te on :tajor :!eci:oicns o£ CCU."lcils •here ·..,e feel t..'J.at. t.l-te::e real!;r should ;;e a fairly ;coci consensus ra:..her t.ha.-. just a si::tple ~ajor:.ty, alt.'lough I tenc! to ag:-ee sctr.e·.:hac. with what :l::e non. gent:ler::an sal::! as it. relac.es to other eltactions ar.d various t..~in~s b1 ai::1.ple n.ajori t.itas. ':':1is i;;; ju=ot. an at.t.er~t. o~l o:.u- part to insur~ that _.here c::::unci! 'ices agree t.o t:o a carta.:.n t.1.ing, particularly ;..'he::e thay are saiing let. us cna.n;e. our ·•hole election procedure, let us .lave a :aye:- <.:lect:eC separa-.:el:,c. ;;e are reasonal::.li su:e t."l.at. t.'<ere is a !ai:­ const.r.S'!S, t.. .. at. the .:ouncil 1s represent..:.ng a !aJ.r con::>e:-.sl.ls of :.he ::or.:.."':'.ur.it.y, tnat scrt. of ::.hi:-.g. 3756

.1ove:ci.Jer 29, 19 79 'l'ape 143~ :s - J :.t?..

D. :iOL~'I':.': On a point: of cla.::i!ica:.ion, !1:-. :,!ir.is"~:e.::, ~c-t::..1ircis :::ajor!.t.y, t..''1at .::e!e.::.s to a f~ll :::ou.:tcil - sc•ten, ;.,hat happens t.."len if t.."l.ere is or.ly five on a zouncil by resi;naeicn or C.ea-=.."17 ~n a major decision o! council -.,.ould t:.e:t have to .., . .._.:..t un~l t. ..... e coc:'lcil is brought Ui? to se•.ren or "•ould it be t•,.;o-thirds of five'? :·rR. ~I::CSCR: I! e...1.ere are onl:t !.:.ve rr..er:i:.ers still sitting on ccu."\cil t.:1an that is ocviow.o:ly ':he c:ou.'\cil, "'o i: is t;..·o­ t.airds of five. :'2.. :l. hCLLE'r':': ~~·ell l r.!iC. not. k."•'-"' - <:.he :!=!init.icn .:..s r:.ot de:a::.

Unless it !:eea.r.e .l.=:ss e..'lan a quo:un .• in · .. ·itic.• case they .,.,.ould have tc have t:"le app.::cval of t.."i.e ::tinlste:: to carr-l en a.:> if they ila.ci a quorum. and the nur.i::er si:t.ing ?resently t.~en ;..c'.lld cor.£:i :t.:t~ t..'"l.e council. lt r::a'j be a council of five :::ec.:.e::s, it t'..ay te a cour.cl:. o:: nine :r.e:rl:\!rs. 3757

:iovembe.r 29, 1979 '!3-?e .;o. l49J so - l :,~. r.~-::!5: 3ut t.his ?<.trticula=

section does say counci:!.lors in office. \ :m.. u. 'di:msoR: co~cillors i~ of!ice at that t~e. Y;s. Or. ::~otion, Clauses ll to 20 carri.:;:•:i. Shall :::.,,uses ll to 30 car:;-f? :i.R. :. • ':"!:0:-15: The hen. m.e=o..ber f.o: Grar.d ean.<.. Mr. Chai::J.n, I •..-ould lika :o go i:ack to

Section 2l of this ac't and ! b:roughe i-:: up '•<!-:en r spoke oriqi::ally on this bill. The minis'ter. as well, ref.erreC to ~~is i~ re~ly ~= co~ent.s ~~at r had made but I ~~ no: satis!ie~ wieh wr~: :he minist.er question. Tnis :r:artic-.olar saceion S3.:fZ1 " Tf.at 'N:-.ere a ·.;a::a.-.cy :;;.ayor :or ::.e remainder of the mayor's t.er:n and has all tt.e powe=s a.n.:. sr,all exercise ~".e dueies of ~;..e mayor".

My question at t.he t:i.me to th~ for \ol'l'ut coul::i be. t..'1.ree years of a feu= ~'ear i::: i.s every fo-.:= :..."le d.ef:"..!:::y aayor a.nd .appoi!".':. a cou."'l.cillor to <;he tO? ;.os: or C:oe.:; position of mayor? !f he does not accept tr~ position of ~a~or can the r.tini.:;:::er tt.en re1r.ove t..'1.e deput:r naycr from of!ice !:ecause ta.is does no::: say the deputy mayo!:' may assur:.e :..."-e office, it says, in a case like tha:::?

A."'l.d if ':.he C.e;:;· .. ::::: ::.ayor -:..""'.en ref·.:.ses, :a:-. :::-.e you kr.o•..r, really cur! :.;,e C.epu-;:y :nayc:- off the cou."'l.cil? i:l. th~ event :he de?'.lty nayor .:;ays, !:O bor, r ao :.ct. .acce;?:::ir.;- ':!:<: 3758

~Icve:::l.e: 29, 1979 Tape :;o. :.;9J 50 - 2 du~ies of ~ycr. to r..:.n i."1. t.'le nex:. pr:.vi.'1cial alecticr., :1.e Mows ho•"' u~~o~ular i-; pa.::t.icula.: section, I think - in order to cla.:ify i::., refer to Sec-:ion 23 whi::!l defines,· ":::n :.:1e at:sence or inca