Manitoba Hansard — 14 May 1974 (Sitting 126, 30th Legislature, 1st Session)

30-1-126

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEG ISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1:30 o'clock, Tuesday, May 14, 1974 Openin g Prayer by Mr . Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 3483 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed, I should li ke to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 55 students, Grades 5 and 6 standing, of the Li nwood School. These students are under the directio n of Miss Seipp and Miss Demore st. This school is located in the constituency of the Honour ab le Member for St . James. And we have 40 students, Grades 10 and 11 standing, of the St . John's Hi gh. These students are under the directio n of Mrs .

Shklov and Mr s. Dawson. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster, the Minister of Mines, Resources and Envir onmental Managemen t . On behalf of all the honourable memb ers , I welcome you here today . Prese nting Petitions; Reading and Receivin g Petitio ns ; Presen tin g Reports by Standing and Special committees. The Honour ab le Member for Gimli. REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR . JOHN C. GOTTFRIED (Giml i) : Mr . Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Standing Commitee on Municipal Affairs . MR .

CLER K: Your Committee met on Tuesday, May 14, 1974, and heard repre sentatio n with respect to the vario us Bi lls referred to it as follows: Bil l No . 38: J.G . McJannet - on behalf of The Housin g and Urban Deve lopment Associa tio n of Manitoba; and The Urban Deve lopment Insti tute (Manitoba Divisio n) . R. Goodwin - on behalf of The Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce . Bil l No . 46: R. Goodwin; Jim Wynde ls, as a private citizen. Your Committee has considered Bill No . 3,

an act to amend The Lo cal GGvernment Dist ricts Act, and has agreed to report the same without amendment . Your Committee has also considered Bi ll No. 2,

an Act to amend The Department of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs Act, and has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which is respectfully submitted. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gimli. MR. GOTTFRIED: Mr . Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourab le Member for St. Vi tal, that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS MR . SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourabl e Ministe r of Labo ur . HON . RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labo ur ) (Transcona) : Mr .

Speaker , it has bee n my custom that during the sittin gs of the Legis lature that I report ins ofar as the unemployment figures are concerned for the Provin ce of Manitoba and Canada , and I would like now so to do. Copies of the report that I wish to make reference to, have not been tabled and would be distri buted to the honourable members of the political parti es. Mr . Speaker, I•m pleased to announce to the House that Manitoba •s actual unemployment rate inAp ril o f 1974 was 3. 1 percen t, the second lowest rate in the whole oftheDominion of Canada , second only toAlberta .

This rate of 3.1 is lower than the rate of 3. 7 recorded in March of this year, and much lower than the rate of 4 percen t of April 19 73 . In connectio n with the seasonally adjusted rate , our rate was 3.1 percen t in April of this year , lower than 3. 3 percent in March of this year and lower than the rate of 3.9 percent rec orded in April of 1973. In terms of the numbers unemployed. By compar iso n of March to April of this year, our total numbers of unemployed have decreased by 2, 000 to 13 , 000 by comparis on to of a year ago of 16,000 .

Manitoba 's labour force in April of 19 74 stood at 416, 000 which is 7, 000 higher than it was a month ago, and a whopping 14 ,0 00, Mr . Speaker , than it was in April of 19 73. Total employment in the provin ce - and I suggest, Si r, that this is very signif icant - total employment in the Province of Manitoba in Ap ril stood at 403,000 people, an increase of

3484 May 14, 1974 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS (MR. PA ULLEY Cont 'd) . • . . • 9, 000 over the previous month and a whopping 17, 000 higher than it was in April of 1973. I think the figures that I am now announc in g to the House, Mr . Sp eaker , is indicative of the forward thrust in the economy of the province , of which we are all partic ipan ts, and that whil e there is no reason for complacency it is an indication that we are ever going forward in the economy and the advancement of the economy of the Province of Manitoba. We realiz e , Mr .

Spea ker , and here I deviate from the figures that I am giving to honourable member s, we recogniz e that due to the increased activity within the Prov ince of Manitoba it may be necessary for us with the co-operation of Canada Manpower, to bring people of expertise into the work force in order that the forward thrust of the economy of the Provin ce of Mani wba is accommodated and enhanced.

We are not complacent, the gover nment is not complacent, but we do recogniz e that on a comparative basis the destin y of this province and the people of this provinc e is being furthered and, as I indicate , not that we are satisfied, but on a comparative basis this province is one of the gems in the whole of the economy of the Dominion of Canada. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.C. (Lea der of the Official Opposition) (River Heigh ts): Mr .

Speaker , the Honourable Minister of Labour has a very simplistic way of explaining any si tuation, and in dealin g with the quesLion of unemployment he has presented a si mple explana tion which would indicate positive achieveme nt. But, Mr . Speaker, the question of unemploy ment and the statistical date we have today has to be examined in conne ction with the problem of infla tion, and has to be examined further in connection with the programs that govern ment have un dertaken in the past to com bat inflat ion. And thi s, Mr .

Speaker, I believe, is very relevan t to an understandin g of the statistical data that we have avai lable to us and for the action that government should be consider ing and unde rtaking now. There' s no question, Mr . Speaker, thaL it was part of a Federal Govern ment policy to carry on a program which provided realist ical ly for high unemployment statistical data or , in real terms, high unemployment as a means to. combat infl ation. This was certain ly not acceptable to the people of Canada and the policy has altered. Mr .

Speaker , in order to do this , the Federal Gover nme nt and the provincial governments have conducted a series of programs which to a large extent could be considered make-work programs , some of which had some socially desira ble resul ts, many of which could be questi oned both on the basis of socially desi rable results and on the basis of the incentive necessary to stimulate people to seek employment, to further their own education, and to develop the parti cular skills which would provide contin uity of employment over the years and a contribution to the economy and to society . Well, Mr .

Speaker , I think that the statistical data produced today puts now into question the whole thrust of government with respect to a whole range of programs in which government have basica lly sponsored people by way of government- created programs in areas that have been completely unpr oductive insofar as the economy is concer ned, and in turn, by doing this , have to a certain extent, I believe , jeopardiz ed the opportunities that people would have had and should have had to find employment in the economy in jobs and in skills that were required and are avai lable . Mr .

Speaker, there are many jobs available both in the rural and northern parts of this province and in the urban areas . Those jobs are not fill ed . They are not filled because people are still, at this point , carrying on a variety of diff erent programs that were offered several years ago as one solution to the problems of high unemployment. And I suggest, Mr . Speaker , that the lesson to be learned from the statistical data is not the simplistic version that the Honour able Minister of Labou r would have us believe: that things are going well; that Manitoba is the gem; that the thrust is positive .

Rather, I suggest, what it in dica tes, Mr . Speaker, is the need for government to stop its spending, to control part of its giveaway, to in fact start to exercise restraint and to allow the jobs to be filled by people who are now receivin g benefits of a program that may have been ne cessary several years ago but is not necessary today, and government's continual involvement in this program has in fact been a major contributor to the inflationary tren d that exists in this province and in this country . And, Mr .

Sp eaker, it is time - and the statistical data will prove this - that the brak es be placed on the kind of government programs that provided make-work with limited social desirable resul ts, which in fact will provide the statistical data that we have today, but in the long run will both undermine

May 14, 1974 3485 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS (MR. SPIVAK Contrd) ••.•. the capacity and the abi lity of people to be able to handle things for themselves, the jobs for themselves, at the same time to curb the inflati onary spiral that we are living unde r now in this province and in this country . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Bonif ace . MR. J. PAUL MARION (St. Bonif ace) : Mr . Speaker , I would like to respond on behalf of the Liberal Party to the ministerial statement with respect to employment , Without going into great length, it is now a fact that we have virtual full employment. There is in essence little , if any, unemployment in this province . I think that there is a

section of the Minister' s statement which bears looking into, and that is that sectio n that deals with a number of special ists might now be required to carry on some of the jobs that are pre sently going for want. I think , Mr . Speaker , that if our party were to give any advice and if the Minister were to accept any advice fr om our group, it would be that ar ea.

I think there is no doubt that we're embarking now on a pr ogram of constructio n in these coming months that will leave a lot of positio ns unfill ed, and for this we are apprehensive and it would seem to us that the efforts of the Mini ster, and in fact his government, should be channelled in that basic ar ea. There is no doubt that at this stage of the game, now that we have reac hed the full employment, there will be problems of doing the things that we would want done to keep the tempo of our economy going at the rhythm that it has now reached, because of the fact that many positi ons will be going wanting.

It would seem to us, therefore, that the Minister should spend all of his efforts looking at how best the governme nt can apply itse l f to filling those positio ns that are now going wanting . MR. SPEAKER: Any other Minister ial Statements or Tabling of Reports? Notices of Motion; Intr o ductio n of Bi lls . The Acti ng House Lead er , the Honourable Minister of Finan ce . HON . SAUL CHERNIACK, Q.C. (Ministe r of Fi nance) (St. Johns): Mr . Speaker , I beg to move , seconded by the Mi nister of Colleges and Univ ersiti es, that Mr .

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House res olve itsel f into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House res olved itsel f into a Committee of Supply with the Honour able Member for St. Vi tal in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR. CHAIRMAN: The Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs . Resolution 33. The Honourable Minister . HON . BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education and Minister of Colleges and Universities Affairs) (Burro ws): Mr .

Chairman, at this point in time I would like to res pond to some of the questio ns raised by honourable members . I appreciate the assistance that I am recei vi ng from my colleagues on this si de of the House, Mr. Chairman, but I also feel duty bound to provide the members of the other si de some info rmatio n of the activities of this Departmen t of mine . And I would like to commence , or deal with the comments in the order in which they were made, commencin g with those of the Honourab le Member for Fort Garry. The Honour able Member for Fort Garry, I note, Mr .

Chairman , is not pre sent in his seat but I'm certain that he will take the time and he would want to take the time to read my response in Hansard, He has expressed concern about duplicatio n of uni versity servic es. Now I would like to assure the honourable member that under the legislation under which the Universities Grants Commissio n operates, it does have statutory authority to approve or to order disc ontinua tion of uni versitypro gr ams. In exercising this responsibi lity that is imposed upon it , Mr .

Chairman , the Universities Grants Commissio n does in fact compare notes with other western provinces to determine what pr ograms are be ing offered elsewhere , what programs could perhaps more effi cientl y be provided by having them avail able at one university in one province or another, and so forth. So hence in that mann er, Mr . Chairman, there is real ly no danger of duplication of university service s, nor would it lead to any unde si rab le or unn ecessary competition. I also wish to point out to the honourab l e member, Mr .

Chairman, that there are no professio nal schools of colleges, such as architectu re , engin eering, medicine and the like , outside the University of Manitoba . Now I should make an exception to this , Mr . Chairman, because the Universities of Win nipeg and Bran don are an exception, that is the fie ld of education and the Facul ty of Music at the Unive rsi ty of Bran don.

3486 (MR. HANUSCHAK Cont•

d) SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES May 14, 1974 The Honour ab le Member for Fort Garry was also concerned ab out Canadian content, as he described it, re presented in the faculties of the uni versities in Manitoba, Now again I must rem ind the honour able member that the University of Manitoba operates under its own Act, the Universities of Brando n and Winnipeg under the Universities Establishment Act, That being so, they can, and do, exer cise complete independ ence , freedom and autonomy ins ofar as meeting their staffing requirements is concern ed, and they always did enj oy this measure of independ en ce .

And the Universities Grants Commissio n does in fact state specifially that it will have no ro le whatsoever in determining or in suggesting to a university whom it should or should not hire . The Honour able Member for Fort Garry was also concerned about some of our summer student employmen t programs .

Well I wish to indicate to him that the summer employment programs are based on student need, so therefore it becomes essential and ne cessary, in the course of interv iewing the student, to inc lude such info rmatio n on the applicatio n form that would en able us to assess the student's need, because we also tie that in. You know, we look at the - Being con scio us of that, therefore , an attempt is made to provide employment, fir stly to those who may qualify for bursary assistance , for which need is a criterion, And then after having dealt with those, we may go to deal with others .

Now the honourable member was also concerned about the lack of control of spending, and I'm wondering , Mr .

Chairma n, whether he is not confusin g our STEP pr ograms with some of the Federal programs LI P, ORFREY and others, because others are very specific task-orien ted, In other words , the students draft, they design a proposal of a particul ar project, indicating the amount of time it will requi re, the amount of manpower it will requi re , and whatever other expenditu res may be tied in with it, so therefore we know, in advance of the commencement of the project, exactly how much it will cost, it 'l l cost that and no more.

Now, I bel ieve he was also wonderin g whether now-- no, I bel ieve it was the Honour able Member for Assin iboia that raised this question, but I think that the Member for Fort Rouge also al luded to it , These projects are for the benefit of the Provin ce , municipalit ie s, school boards , and for established c.:>mmunity groups. Then the Honourable Member for Assin iboia raised a num ber of concer ns . He suggested that perhaps we should consider some greater , or high er, perhaps all owing exemptio n up to a higher leve l of gifts to uni versities . This is under the gift tax provisio ns .

We ll the gift tax legislation, or law, is a federal law and not ours . He also suggested making greater use of unive rsity facil it ies , of the physical facilities and staff, by operating on a trimester system. Well, you know, there are credits and also debits to that system of operation, althought I wish to assure you, Mr . Chairman, and the honourable member, that some exper imentatio n is proceeded with in this regard.

The Univ ersit y of Bran don, for example, will be offer ing what they call an inte r-session, which will al low students to pick up univ ers ity credits dur ing the months of May and June , and as well as their summer session. The University of Winnipeg is planning a session commencing - a first year session - commencin g in the month of February for the benefit of those students who, under the semester-trimester system in high school, may complete their Grad e 12 some time in the middle of the school year , and this will enabl e them to register in University and continue with their studi es.

This , by the way Mr . Chairman, the making maximum use of the physical facil ities and staff facil iti es, is one that is be ing very carefully studied al l over the North American continen t , has been experimented with in vario us univer sities with varied degrees of success, in fact some even with fail ure . I may mentio n to you, Mr .

Chairman, that the Uni versity of Pittsburgh practica lly went bankrupt attempting to operate on a round-the-cal endar , round the-year basis , because of the additional, I suppose, operatin g costs, mainte nance costs, and staff costs, because staff has to be given holida ys . So in other words it' s not just a qu estion of, you know, using the same staff and expecting them to work 12 months a year . That we cannot do, And it does increase the staffing requirements and which in turn increases the costs and that certainl y is a factor that cannot be over looked, cannot be igno red.

The Honour able Member for Assin iboia was also concerned ab out-- he wanted, yes, he wanted to know whether there are any STEP programs , Student Summer Employment Programs , offered in governm ent, The answer is ye s. The government programs will provide -- and

May 14, 1974 3487 SUPPLY - COLLE GES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK Cont•d) •••.• again, they're project-based programs; they•ll provide employment for something in the order of 1, 400 students plus 140 via Northern Manpower, and in addition to that - these are the projects - based programs -b ut in addition to that, the government departments have need for short term casual labour to fill vacancies cr eated by those taking their holida ys , and in some departments the work load increases during the summer months.

I would suspect that Highwa ys , and Tourism and Recreation, may be two where that may be the case, and perhaps other s, where there may be survey work goin g on during the summer or whatever . Well, it •s estimated, and these too are employed or they are routed via the Youth Secretar iat , depa rtmental jobs of that type, or openings , will provide employment for 20 -- for about 2, 300 students. In addition to the community STEP, well over 2, 000, about 2, 40 0; rural STEP, about 750 , and the summer education program 200, the work study , an additional 50 .

The Honourable Member for Assin iboia was concerned about the St. James Collegiate community STEP proj ect, and the facts of it are as follows. Last year , it involved seven students, 7, 440 salary dollars and $2, 560 of expenses bec ause, as the Honourable Member desribed the progr am, there was a material expense , a component, and this was shared, or at least the expense; I believe that the community made a fair contribution to this .

This year , based on the population formula - bec ause we attempt to equate the population of the schools to the over-all student population and apportion and approve projects accordin gly, this year on the basis of the populatio n distribution, they're el igible for providin g employment for the equivalent of five students, and $4 , 05 0 and $50 0. 00 expense dollars .

Now, ye s, that•s $5 00,00 which would be paid out of my department , I should mention that of the $2, 560 expenses of last year , the community was asked to contr ibute $2, 060, 00, Now the change for this year all owed more students , and I1m speakin g on a province-wide basis , allowed more students to be employed throughout the Prov ince on a more equitable distri bution basis , and this change was made known to the school in Oc tober, I should also remin d you, Mr, Chairman, that this is a community STEP project, and in the approval of community projects there are represen tatives.

There is a committee attached to each community that makes this decision and not the Youth Secretariat or anyone else in my department. It was agreed in November , after further dis cussions between the direc tor of the Youth Secretariat and the one from St. James Collegiate , or the staff from St, James Collegiate who was heading up this project, that any additional support costs that they may inc ur would have to be borne by the local community of St. James - that is , over and above the $5 00,00, INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please.

If I can inter rupt the Honourable Minister for just a moment, I•d like to direc t the attention of the members to the gallery, where we have 21 students of Duke of Edinburgh School in Fort Churchill; they are in Grades 11 and 12 and they're unde r the dire ction of Mr . Gem bey and Miss Mayner . This school is located in the constituenc y of the Honourable Member for Churchi ll. On behalf of the members, I bid you welcome. The Honourable Minister of Colleges and Unive rsiti es. SUPPLY - COLLE GES AND UNIVERSITIES Cont•d MR.

HANUSCHAK: The Honourable Member for Assin iboia also felt that perhaps the University of Br andon is not rec eiving a fair shake, as it were , in terms of what ac crues to it by way of grant.

Now I have the 19 73-74 figur es before me , Mr, Chairman, and before I give them I should poin t out to you that one could readily see why the costs at a unive rs ity such as Manitoba would run considerable higher than those at any other univers ity by reason of the fact that the Univ ersity of Manitoba has a fairly extensive graduate program and also has a number of faculties whic h are considerably more expensive to operate than an Arts and Sc ienc e faculty, and I1m speaking medi cine , den tistry , engin eerin g and the like, But, you know, be that as it may , so that of course ac counts for the differenc e .

But the average cost, the aver age grant per standard student, that is for full-time student equivalent , at the Univ ersit y of Manitoba for the year 19 73-74 was $2, 281; at the University of Winnipeg - the average grant rather - the ave rage grant to the University of Winnipeg was $1 , 345, and to the

3488 May 14, 1974 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK Cont'd) ..... Univ ers ity of Brand on - $1 , 785. So, comparin g the three unive rsiti es, I really cannot accept the fact that the University of Brandon was in any way short-changed.

And in addition to what I would feel is a rel atively favorable grant paid to the Unive rs ity of Brand on, the government , through the Uni versities Grants Commission, assumed the responsi bility for an annual payment of approx imate ly $1 33, 000 per year on the mortgage of the unive rsity's new resi denc e, whi ch will continue for another -- well, it was a 50-year mortgage and there aren't that ma:1y years less than 50 still to go.

And 50 percent of the univ ersity's ac cumulated operating defic it , whic h was a further government obligation of approximatel y $4 53, 000 and for the year prior to that, wllile it was the ac cumulated deficit as of that time , and in the year 19 73-74 , the Univ ersity of Brandon, by the way, did show a surplus - not that a university is intended to operate as a profit-making instituti on. It was a modest surplus of $60 , 000 but I think that it does indicate that the Uni versity of Brandon, you know, is managing its affairs in a very very business like mann er. Now I belie ve , Mr .

Chairman, that the assis tance now being given to Bran don Univ ers ity meets its needs very adequately and I think that the 19 73-74 surplus is indicative of that. I also note in a rec ent letter that the Uni versities Gran ts Commission rec eived from the president , in it the presiden t states as follows, that the Board of Governors has asked him - I'm quoting him - "The Board of Governors has asked me to write to tell you how very much we appreciate the financial assis tance rec eived this year through the Commission. " So that, Mr .

Chairman, is the story with respect to Bra ndon University and the Unive rsities Grants Commission dealing s with it . The Honoura ble Member for Assiniboia also quoted some rather startlin g and alarming figures of the out-migration of unive rs ity graduates from the provinc e , and I believe , Mr .

Chairman, and my notes are not that ac curate, but I bel ieve , that I rec all the honourable member having made referenc e to a parti cular faculty, that he was speaking primarily of, I think it was Engine er ing or Architec ture , in one of the applied scie nce field anyway , and he spoke of an exodus, of an annual exodus of 75 to 80 perc ent of the graduates from the provi nce . Well, Mr. Chairman, I had the Uni versities Grants Commission check with the Alumni Association on what the facts of the matter really are . Is the exodus of grad uates from Mauitoba as high as was indicated to us last night ?

And here are the figur es: Of the number of graduates that the Alumni Association has on its membership rolls remaining in the Prov ince of Manitoba : From the Univ ersity of Manitoba 20, 000, approximately 47 perc ent; from the Unive rsit y of Winnipeg 3, 784 , or appro ximately 62 perc ent of their gradu ates, remain in the Provinc e of Manitoba ; and approx imately at the same per centage level from the Universit y of Br andon, of 1, 279 gradu ates appro ximately 60 per cent, for a total of 25 , 063 or appro ximatel y 49 per cent - appro ximately half.

Now, just in the event that this figure may appear -- that some honourable members may tend to feel somewhat uneasy about it, it should be poin ted out that many students not orig inally Mani tobans have retur ned home and that graduates of other unive rsities now res ide in Manitoba, and thus the above figur es tell only part of the story of the res idences of univ ersity graduates.

Now as the University of Manitoba has almost all the profession al faculties , it would be expected that more of its graduates than graduates of the other uni ver si ties with large Arts and Scienc 'El\enrolments would leave the provinc e, and thus about 50 per cent of Manitoba's graduates leave the provinc e , which is considerably lower , Mr . Chairman, than the 70 to 80 perc ent suggested yesterday by the honourable member.

Another matter of extreme concern to the Honourable Member for Assi nibo ia was the matter of funding of post-secondary education and the suggestion that the Federal Governmen t ought to assume a greater share of the cost of post-secondary education. Well, members of the committee may rec all, and I would just like to deal for a moment or two, Mr. Chairman, to state the government 's position vis-a-vis federal funding, and indi cate to the House - and I think this should go on rec ord - indicating the effort made by this gover nment to obtain a greater share of assistance from the Federal Gover nment.

And I wish to remind honourable members that in April of 19 67 the Federal Government introduced a new method of sharin g with the provinces their costs for post-secondary education, and this new method was a further rec ognition of the fact that hig hly educated people are very mobile and the benefit of the education they have rec eived in one pro vinc e may accrue to several other provinc es dur ing

May 14, 19 74 3489 SUPPLY - COLLE GES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR . HANUSCHAK Cont•d) .• ..• their lifetime . The costs should therefore not fall solely on the provinc e in whic h they were educated, but a part of the cost should be a national responsi bility. The instrument for providing this transfer is the Fisc al Arran gements Act, and in its rew form it had effect from April 1, 19 67 to March 31 st of 19 72.

In anticipation of its termin ation in 19 72, federal-provincial disc ussion s were carried on dur ing 19 71 and early '72, and neither the Fede ral nor the Provincial Gover nme nts were able to develop a new proposal whi ch would find mutual acceptance , but all were very much concerned about the rapid escalation in the costs of post-secondary education, partic ularly in unive rsities .

And, lacking an acceptable new approa c h but with a concern about the open-ended nature of the Federal Governme nt's cost-sharin g arran gement, that governmen t decided to extend the former agreement for a further two years until March 31 st of this year , and dur ing the interim period bot h the Federal and Provinc ial Governments determined that disc ussions must be carried on looking to the years after March 31 st of 19 74 .

Now bec ause of their desire for a better arrangem ent , the provincial Ministers of Education and of Fi nanc e met and direc ted that a series of altern ative proposals be prepared for their consid eration.

In April of 19 73, on behalf of the Ministers of Education, my colleague the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development, who at that time in his previous portfolio was chairman of the Council of Education Ministers of Canada , wrote to the Honourable John Turner confi rming arran gements for a conferenc e of Financ e , Education and Health Minist ers , at which the provinces would submit proposals for a new approach to cost sharin g . And his letter read in part as follows, and I would like to take the opportunity, Mr .

Chairman, to read his letter into the rec ord , and I do appreciate the fact that my time , that I only have about three or four min utes remai ning and it may take me about five to compare this , and if I could have le ave of the House I would like to read the entire statement that is very much a part of • . . MR . CHAIRMAN: Will the Minister have leave to complete the reading of the letter ? (Agreed) MR . HANUSCHAK: "The proposal" - and I'm quotin g from the letter written by the Honourable Saul Mill er, at that Minister of Colleges and Univ ersiti es.

"The proposal calls for a transfer of additional personal inc ome tax poin ts from the Government of Canada to the provincial governments in a form similar to the tax abatements of the early Sixt ie s. This tax tran sfer would be accompanied by a new system of equalization, based on the yiel d to the highe st provinc e , which system would guarantee that all provinces would rec eive iden tic al per capita yie lds from the additional tax points coupled with the proposed equalization.

A specific number of tax points to be abated and the precise mechanism for implementing this special equalization system would be determined following joint analysis and agreement among the federal and provincial governments . "In many ways, as you will no doubt have noted, this proposal resembles closely the general joint program financing system sug6ested by the Govern ment of Quebec at the Federal-P rovinc ial Conferenc e of Ministers of Fi nance and Treasurers in January of this year , and supported, I understand, by most of the Ministers at that meeting. 11 This year meaning, Mr . Chairman, 19 73.

I contin ue with this letter. "In fact, the specific post-secondary education financing proposal that I have just outlined was derived dire ctly from the Quebec plan, and its continued en dor iiia tions by the majority of provincial governments indicates that there is agreement among most provi nces that a general fis cal transfer approach should be adopted in developing revised arrangements for federal financial support for the post-secondary program . The primary reasons for most provinc es• preferenc e for the fisc al transfer approach are already well-known to you.

It appears there is a growing feelin g that in the case of this mature program , overly restric tive cost-sharin g arran gements may tend to interf ere with individual provinces abilities to determin e their own prioritie s, and may deter efforts to achieve greater effi ciency and improvement in servic e, 11These problems were mentioned freq uently in re cent dis cussions among provincial Minister s.

In addition, there seems to be growing conc ern about the administrative complex ities inh eren t in many shared-cost program arran gements, inc luding problems related to the definitionof sharable costs, of payments and subsequent adjustme nts, of apparen tly inc onsisten t

349 0 May 14, 19 74 SUPPLY - COL LE GES AND UNN ERSITIES (MR . HANUSCHAK Cont•d) ..•.. practices in the administration of programs from provinc e to provinc e , and so on. "Finally , there appears to be general agreement that revised financing arrangements should provide later fis cal flexib ility and capacity for the provinces to enable them to meet growing cost pressures re lated to existin g servic es, and to undertake program expansion in certain areas .

This concern is direc tly related, of course, to many provinces • repeated req uests that your government consider implementing a more equitable general federal provincial reven ue-sharin g system." So ends the letter of the Honourable Saul Mill er . At the confere nce whic h followed, Mr. Chairman, the Federal Government rej ected the provincial proposals and the provinces in turn re jected the federal proposals.

It was then decided by the Federal Govern ment that the existin g provisions of the Fis cal Arran gements Act would be extended for a further period of three years , that is until March 31, 1977, with a ceiling of 15 per cent annual escalation and a federal contribution introd uced in 1972 being contin ued until 1977. It is therefore evident that the provinc es, inc luding our own, Mr .

Chairman, are not satisfied with the share of post-secondary costs being carried by the Federal Governm ent, and that strong and concerted efforts have been made , without success, to secure a more advantageous cost-sharin g plan . You may be sure that these efforts will be contin ued between now and 197 7 in the hope that a better ar range ment may be introduced at that time . Now I wish to thank the honourable members, Mr . Chairman , for giv ing me the additional couple of min utes to complete my comments at this time , and no doubt there will be further comments later . MR .

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarn ey. MR . EARL McKELL AR (Souris-Ki llar ney) : I just want to say a few words on the Estimates of the Mi nister of Colleges and Uni versities at this time and I'll be very brief, bec ause lookin g at the clock and looking at the Order Paper, I see we only have about five hours and a half left on our Estimates before we go into Concurrenc e on the various depart ments. I•d like to say that this past year we've had a change in Ministers in this department.

The Minister who was at Colleges and Univer sities has now gone to Health and Social Development, and the Minister of Education lui s taken over a dual portfolio , assuming the responsibilities of both departments of Education, both at the elementary and secondary , and colleges and unive rsiti es. And we see we have a large increase in the budget this year of Colleges and Univers iti es.

I was sorry I missed yesterday , and I'd like to know the en rolments of the univ ersit ies to find out-- I know Brandon weren• t any more than holding their own a year ago and I don•t know about the Univ ersity of Manitoba and the University of Wi nnip eg. But are we havin g less students in our unive rsities today at a higher increased cost, or what is the en roll ment for the present year compared to the year previous ?

Mention was made of Bran don Uni versity and the part they play in the education al, and I•d like to say a few words on Br andon Univ ers ity bec ause I happen to be a life �ember of Bran don Uni versit y and also former board member of Brandon Uni versity. A MEMBER: What•s a lif e member ? MR . McKELLAR : A life member is a man who contributes $10 0. 00, and if you want to contribute $10 0. 00 you can be a life member too . I happen to be a life member of the Inter national Peace Garden too, which will be glad to take your $10 0. 00 any time you want to.

For $1 00. 00 we•ll get you on a plaque , put your name on a bronze plaque there too. Mr . Chairman, I want to say a little about Br andon Univ ersit y bec ause if you listen to the govern ment of the day you•d think that everything that has happened in education has happened since 1969 , and I want to say to the government of the day that ever ything didn't happen si nce 1969 . Most of the programs , most of the buildings and most of the uni versities and colleges were started during the Roblin Governme nt . I know many of them started previous under the Li beral Governm ent .

I want to say a little about the past history, and I remember so well in 19 58 when Bran don Uni versity, you had to do something about it, and the community got behind and said they'd do something about it and the government of the day said they'd do something about it . The government said they'd put up $2. 00 for every $1. 00 that the local people raised. The local people raised in that community and all across Canada $1 million,

May 14, 19 74 349 1 SUPPLY - COLLE GES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. McKELLAR Cont•d) • , .•• and the govern ment of the day put up $2 million . And that $3 million, Mr . Chairman, was the start of all the new buildings that started at Br andon Univ ersity in 195 8.

And I want to congratulate the people of that community bec ause I think that they should be congratulated at this time for the initiative and the desire that they had to get behind that university at that time , and I think the people of much of Manitoba will be better off by having that university there , be cause many students are able to get their university education there that they couldn•t have got if they'd had to go to Winnipeg or other uni versities in Canada.

I'd like to also say a few words on the many community colleges that are mentioned in these estimates, be cause we all know the names have been changed since 1969 . The buildings haven't been changed but plaques were taken off the various walls with the names Roblin and J ohnson on it and the names of Schreyer and Miller put on in their place with new names . Mr . Chairman, the buil dings and the colleges are doing the same job that they were doing then, even though the government wants to take cr edit for a new name and new names of Cabinet Ministers on those plaques.

But I think those buildi ngs and those colleges that were started in that day , I think that people are proud of those inst itutions both at The Pas, Bran don, and out here in Bro oklands , and I think that those educational -- I would thin k in my opinion they were novel in those days . They were real ly novel bec ause they were something brand new . And they•ve been improved on, I know that, but I think the or iginal intent has been a wonderful thing for the Provinc e of Manitoba .

But as I mentioned, I was really a little provoked and I'm still provoked, and I want to go on re cord as sayin g that I think it was wrong; it was wrong. Just be cause the government of the day decides they want to chan ge the name of a building, I think it is wrong in every regard to change the name of a bu ilding when the government changes offi ce , The one •.• up at The Pas, the one in Bran don and the one out her e, every one of them are changed with new plaques on them. Did you ever go to The Pas ? Did you ever go to the Pas ?

I was there when the original building was opened. --(Interjection )-- It isn•t the same as it is now. Well there's diff erent plaques, diff erent plaques put up, different names. And it's wrong; it's wrong; and I•m going on rec ord . I tell you it's wrong. Do you think that if we become the government that we•re going around and change all the plaques of all the buil dings that you fellows opened up in the last five years ? Do you think we're that kind of guys ? I' ll say we're not, We•re honourable people. A MEMBER: Hear , hear . MR . McKELLAR: And I tell you, we don't go around doing those kind of things .

I tell you that's not the way to run the government . That's not the way. Be honourable people, I tell you. Do you think we•re going around changing all the names every time the governmen t changes? I tell you this is not the way to do it. Mr . Speaker, I want to say a few other thin gs. We heard the Minister of Labour say how high the employment was today. Why in the name of the world have we got $5 million in here for student employment? Why have we got it ?

If the employment is so good he•s going to bring people into the provinc e to make employment for them, why have we got $5 million to employ university studen ts? I can•t for the lif e of me see why if it•s all that rosy. But we •re contradic tory. Every tim e you get up to speak, another $4 million here , I think four an d a half for student-- no, four million for student unemployment, assi stance 5, 6 milli on - ten million dollars in here, Ten million dollars for the employment for students in the summer time . Is that the rec ord of the Minister of Lab our? That•s not the way he told it.

The way he told it everybody was employed. Well, why have we got $10 million in here to provide students ? And that•s not the only thing , Mr . Chairman. Look at all the STEP Programs for the high school students, and other employment programs , and bursaries . If things here are as rosy as the government of the day say, why do we need all this money in the estimates here ? Taxpayer s• money . My gosh, ever ybody 's looking for people on the farms today but you can't hire them bec ause STEP Pr ogram hires them; somebody else hires them. You can't get a boy to work on the farm .

You can't get them to work on the farm, be cause everybody else -- and furtherm ore , you can•t pay them enough on the farm to what the STEP Progr am pays them and other programs pay . This is an actual fact, But I say, if things are as good as what the Minister of Labour , who do we need $1 0 million in here to help university students? Why do we need it: I'm speaking as a rur al member, one who is paying a great share of the taxes to

3492 May 14 , 1974 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. McKELLA R Cont•d) . • . . . your treasury in the Prov ince of Mani toba , and I tell you, we want to know how that money is spen t and we want to know if it 's spent wise ly , and that•s the reas on why. And I want to speak on computers. I want to speak on computers, because the Minister of Educati on was sayi ng how rosy things were in Bran don. Well that isn't the way I was told it a year ago in Br andon.

I was told, I was talked to by univer sity professors, I was talked to by people in the top leve l of the uni ver sity , wonderi ng who was going to bai l them out, who was goin g to bail them out. The Minister says today that you•re ahead $60, 000 surplus, 60, 000 . How come the next year they had over a: mi llion dollar s deficit ? How did they have a mi llion dollar deficit ? --(In terjecti on)-- Who ba ile d them out ? Who ba iled them out ? The taxpayer bail ed them out, sure. You didn•t bail them all the way out yet ei ther; they've still got a deficit yet. It isn •t as rosy as what you made it out, Mr .

Ministe r. And one of the things about it , the trouble with the universiti es, they've had a free rei n and it 's only ri ght they should have . They've had a free rei n in spending thei r money, and I know the other year , I remember so well - I wasn•t on the board then or it wouldn't have happened - but they br ing speakers from down east, br ing them up from down east. They fly them in to Wi nnipe g. So how do they get them to Br andon ? They take a taxi to Brandon, take a taxi to Br andon and then they take them back in another taxi and send them back in another plane .

All this at the expense of the taxpayers. And I don•t mi nd if people of Brandon are having a speaker from down east, but why in the world do you need to put them in a taxi and br ing them in a taxi all the way from Br andon bac k to Wi nni peg. And this is the expenses that were going on.

Now I think there need to be some controls in the uni ver sit i es, and I real ize that you had $2, 200 at the Unive rs ity of Manitoba , $1, 700 for students at Bran don, 1, 300 and some dollar s at the Univer sity of Winni peg, and I rea lize that's about double what it was about seven years ago, six or seven years ago, and it 'l l like ly go up again too. But somewhere along the line , are we getting results for our money? Are we producing the kind of students who, when they do grad uate from uni versi ty , that we expect them ?

The students of Manitoba graduati ng in Manitoba, are they as good as the students in the re st of Canada ? And these are the questions I want to ask. What have we got to compare with other parts of Canada , the other parts of North America, the other parts of the worl d ? How are our uni ver si ti es? What comparison are we usi ng ? Does the Ministe r know these questions, or is he just flying in the dar k as he usuall y does ? Mr.

Chai rman, I want to ask a few more questions here regard ing computer operati on on the diff erent courses between the University of Manitoba and the Unive rs itie s of Wi nnipeg and Manitob a. Are they all coordi nated? What computer -- I know that Br andon were having troubl e with their computer there about a year ago. Are they still using the computer coordi nating with the University of Manit oba and the Univ er sity of Wi nnip eg ? How do they bl end their course s in? Are they each on their own? Each univer sity operati ng on their own now, regardi ng examinations and all that.

I know before , in the past, they had to write Uni ver sity of Manitoba exams at Bran don. Mr. Speaker , I don•t want to carry on because other speakers -- we •ve only got five hours left here now. But I just want to say that the money we're pouring into education in the Prov in ce of Manitoba, I guess maybe is about the same as what it used to be in comparison dollar- wise . But I know one of the pri ori ties that we had when we came into office in 195 8, that we gave pr io ri ty to education at that ti me at all levels, and we did that.

And I think we did a darned good job for the people of Manitoba setting the groundwor k, buil ding the vari ous buil din gs, both at the elementary, the secondary level and the univer sitie s in the Province of Mani toba. And to lis ten to the Min ister of Education the other day - and I•m just sorry I didn't liste n - but you•d think that heaven started in 1969 - heaven started in 1969 . Well it di dn't do that, Mr . Chai rman.

The government of the day under the leadershi p of Duff Roblin, I think will go down in history , go down in hi story for what they did contri bute to the welfare of al l the students in our Prov ince of Manitoba and make them better ci tizens, I think, and many of those people that graduated in the last sixteen years have graduated and gone on to become leading ci tizens all across our country. I think we're proud of them.

And I don•t have to stand up and congratulate myse lf but I think the record will show, the record will show that during that time that much was done , much was accomplished during those ye ars, and I think the people of Manitoba will not forget it for a long while.

May 14, 19 74 3493 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourab le Member for Pembina . MR . GEORGE HENDERSON (P embina) : Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I real ize time is short and I•m just, goin g to come ri ght to the poi nt of my que stion, and that is, these bur saries that are handed out, I hear a lot of talk among the local people that they don't like the way this is done , they aren•t real ly in favour of this sort of a program, They're more in favour of student loans.

But I'd al so like to ask, as the evaluation on student loans, I know that they're supposed to be accordi ng to the income tax and paper s that are filed and so forth, but I wonder how accurate they rea lly are and is there any cross checkin g on theae papers, because I hear diff eren t people in the rural areas saying, "wel l somebody got a loan and I couldn't ." Now I•m one of those who believes that the bur sari es should pretty well be done away with except when they 're awarded by , we'l l say the Legi on or the Kins men or some special group, where that•s some special award.

But the way burs aries are handed out, it leaves il l feel ing in the country, and I be lieve that what they should be able to get is loans which they can pay back, and even if the in tere st rate is low, that•s all ri ght. But if education is goin g to make these child ren so much better people so as they can get so much better jobs and earn so much more money, they should darned well be able to pay them bac k and pay the in terest on them, and I think that•s the way it should be happenin g. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ri el . MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Rie l) : Mr.

Chairman , I have a few questions I want to direct whil e the esti mates are still before us on Colleges and Uni versities, and a number of the points have already been made in the various contri butions to the debate, and the Minister has covered some of the items in his opening remarks as well. Firs t of all, if I can look just at the Estimates Book, I wanted to ask the Minis ter about what appears to be some shif ti ng in the empha sis of post-secondary educatio n.

The universi ties are up substantially from the previous year , something of the order of $7 mil li on, from 47 to 54 , but the Community Colleges Divis ion are up from 16 .4 to 17. 8, and with the very rapid expansion that has been going on for many years in that sector of both secondary education, I was cur io us to know whether the emphasis is somewhat going off the development of the community college s in comparison to the univers iti es.

It•s our general unders tandi ng that the universiti e s enro llments have been fair l y stationary over the last few years when compared to the community colleges, and it is somewhat surprising to see in the estim ates that the money allocated is sort of the rev er se of that.

In other words, the very rapid expansion period of the community colleges served a very re al need and have been doi ng very good work, I think, in the estim ation of mo st people in their general observations about our post-secondary educati on sy stem; in fact are producing people in the technical and technologies and para professio nal areas, that have carved out a very recognized spot for themselves in the job picture in Manitoba and in the opportunities picture for those people that ar e going through the college s.

So I wanted to specifica lly point out what appears to be somew hat of an anomaly in the money allocati on to these two different sectors of post secondary education and ask if there was some fairly straightf orward explanation of this different trend. I notice that your Di vi sion administration is up, It's doubled in its requireme nts. There seems to be a heavy input into adminis tration in communi ty college s. Your review and development section, which would appear to be a

section that is looking towards the future , is down from 300, 000 to 229, 000 , and theRe dRi ver Communit yC ollege, which is the very largest of all the community colleges, it self is absolutely stationary at 11 . 6 milli on last year and 11. 6 million again this year .

Now whether there have been shifts out of these dif ferent categories, i f there have not been, then it means that rea lly the Red River Community College m terms of budget is slipping bac kwards rather than holding it s own even when one consid er s the rate of in flation, And the other, Assiniboine College is up probably relativ e to the rate of infl ation, and Keewatin is up slightly, and your Special Programs divisions are up, but there are anomalies that appear in these estimates, particul ar l y with regards to Red Ri ver College and your deve lopment secti ons of your department, So those are the que stions that pertain dire ctly to the estimates before us that I would like to get some indication of what direction we're taking in post-secondary education and whether the Estimates Book do in fact re flect that,

3494 May 14, 1974 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. CRAIK Cont1d} I want also to make a few comments about the Task Force Report on post-secondary education. In general terms, I 1ll reflect mostly the concerns that arise from it .

I notice first of all that the post-secondary report recommen ds a ne w structure with regards to administr ati on, and places another level of adminis trati on between the Minis ter and the post secondary instituti ons, and I know that concern has been raised about this by people who are in the post-secondary fie ld, and that their concern is that the communication between the uni versi ti es in par ti cular and the Minis ter's office is not consi dered to be more than adequate at the present ti me , and they're concerned that by the impo si ti on of a commi ssi on on post secondary education, that there •s an extens i on of the administ rati ve wing , which will make it more awkward than it is at the presen t time for the univer si tie s to communi cate dir ectly with the Min is ter •s office .

And of course it br ings into question as to whether or not the Unive rsi ti es Grants Commi ssi on has not been performing an adequate rol e in that respect. I think, Mr. Chairman, that it 's probab ly time to be consider ing giv ing the colleges, parti cularl y Red River College , its own board of govern ors , or board of dire ctors, whatever you want to call them, and putting them out at arm 's length in the same fashion that the _ univers it ies have enjoyed that privilege for many decades. But the structure that •s proposed in the Task Force Report would not appear to do that.

Rather , it would set up a commi ssi on that in turn deals with the colleges, the uni versi ti es and a Regional Affairs Di vi si on that presumably would be created from some of the functions now carri ed out by the other instituti ons. So, Mr. Chai rman, there is concern about that, about whether any real good can be done , any imp rovements can be brou ght to bear by imposing another level of administrati on between the Mi nister and the post-secondary in sti tutions.

And I would rai se the questi on as to whether or not the state of maturity of Red Ri ver Communi ty College is not at the poi nt where some of the problems mi ght be solved by br inging that parti cular body into a category si mi lar to the uni vers i ti es. Mr.

Chairman, also, the Task Force Report br in gs into question the accountability of the uni ver si ti es in parti cular , and I think the uni versi ti es have ans wered that to a very large extent , although they've put a fairly narro w in terpretati on on the word "ac countability ." They appear to be concentrati ng in thei r repl y to the Task Force Report on financial accountability, and I don't think that that porti on is strictl y financ ial accountability , it 's perhaps what some members of the Task Force may have been after.

I suppose I would think that what they'r e reall y after is to make the uni vers ity adaptable , uni vers i ties adaptable and accountable in terms of the needs of the communi ty rather than an inte rpretati on which would say that they had to be more financially accountable . The uni versi ti es, of course , ma intain that they are accountable because their students, to a very large extent , determine their accountability in academi c terms, and the Uni vers ity Grants Commi ssi on and the Provincial Auditor look after the other aspect.

But I do see a legiti mate concern here on the part of the Task Force in looking at accountability to communi ty, and I think one could probably si ngle out here, in particul ar , ask the questi on as to whether the instituti ons have been accountable in satisfying the needs of the community in provi ding some of the professi onal requiremen ts, and one could si ngle out the medical professi on here and say that even though the questi on has been rai sed for je ars and years, and perhaps decades, about the shortage of doctors in Manitob a, we have never seemed to have been able to gear up our educational facilities to the poi nt where the doctor supply level could meet the demand level.

Now whether we're reac hing that poi nt or not, I would doubt whether we sti ll are meeting it , Certai nly it has been in existence for many years, and the educational ins ti tutions for one reason or another - and one would have to poi nt in this parti cular case at the Medical College - the costs of operating it have gone up drasti cally and the money has been directed to mainta ining the quality of the in stitution but certainly not to in creas ing the quantity of the output.

I think that a logical questi on of accountability can be rai sed in that particular example, as to whether or not the needs of the communi ty would not have been better served if the monies were dire cted, if they are a lim it ed supply - and I know they are al ways - directed towards in creas ing the number of graduates rather than attempting to concentrate solely on the inc rease in the quality of the graduates and in the quali ty of the grad uate work. And I•m sure that this applies to other branch es, other professi ons as well,

May 14, 1974 349 5 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. CRAIK Cont•d) • • • • • and to other areas of trai ning and education in the post-secondary ins titution. So although I think that the Universit ie s have an swered the question of accountabi lity to a certain extent, there still is a gap there and it 's al ways an ongoing problem, I real ize of attempting to tail or the univer sity 's undertakings to the needs of the community .

This, of course , can easil y be countered by the uni versities by saying that the uni versities' main requirement is one of freedom to do what their pursuit of academic freedom dictate s them to do, but there is this question of whether or not they are in all cases adapting themselves to community needs. I note that the governme nt has increased the bursary supply , although I would note that the undertaking of the Ne w Democratic Party of some years ago, go back as far as the 1969 election, which was to remove tuition fees from the Univ ersity, has not been under taken.

I don't know whether this is an inte nded objective still of the Party in power in the governmen t or whether they have dropped that as an objective , but certainl y there hasn't been any reduction in the tuition fees and it woul d appear still to provide a problem for many going to univ er sitie s. The one problem that I see remaining primar il y with all our post-secondary institutions, is that we still do not have in Manitoba an equality of opportunity for students to get into the post-secondary institu tions.

I know that there have been imp rovements because counselling has been extended in the high schools to br idge the gap between the high schools and the univ ers itie s and colleges. But, Mr. Chairman , there is still a very important gap that exists, particul arl y in the rural areas, in providin g students with a logical transition from the high school leve l into the post-secondary education field.

The post-secondary ins titutions are located primar il y in Winnipeg and then in Bran don, and to some extent in The Pas, but the people, the young people who are going to high school, particul ar l y in the ru ral areas, still do not have adequate information and a lead-up to making their decis ion as to a post-secondary pursuit of training or educatio n.

And this remains, which provide s us still with a gap tha t provide s for inequality in opportunity , and !think that the governm ent, in its rol e, might well take the initiative here to provide a more adequate transitio n, a transition facil ity , I should say, in trying to solve this problem. I think it ha s to probably be done through means that the univers itie s and colleges have never undert aken.

They've al ways attempted to go out and tell their story to the high schools, but I think that they probab ly have never rea lly interpreted the re al req uire ments to get to the students, or provided the requirements to get to the students. Now I don•t know what those requirements are , but they may be , probably are in the way of a much more serious effort in terms of manpower and faci lities to get the opportunity story across to the high school studen t .

It mig ht be in the way of trail ers, it might be in the way of props, stand, inform ation, in conjunction with the counsel ling facil ities that may or may not exis t in the country schools. But that story of opportunity is not imparted by way of broc hure and calendar alone , and unfortunatel y this has been the main mechanis m for getting the opportunity story across to people in high schools, the people primar il y in the high schools of ru ral Manitoba . So I think that we have here a very good educational machine, ifyou lik e.

We have a Cadi llac of a post-secondary education machine that offers much greater opportunities than ever exis ted before in the his tory of the province , but we still haven •t equipped that machine with the means to get its story across to the students of the provin ce , and to adequately provide them wi th the guidance to plan their courses ahead. Not I know there 's been a great deal of debate in the estimates already in the last two days with regards to attempts to guide students at too earl y an age , that it 's impossib le to try and guide students at Grade 9 and Grade 10 into particul ar courses.

My main concern here is not that. My main concern is that at the later level s, at the Grade 11 and Grade 12 levels, that the technique s and mechanisms being used are not adequate , and somehow we haven't tail ored the right type of mechanisms to solve the problem which is for students to see more clearl y the opportunitie s that lie before them in followi ng a future course of education or training, and I think that that is where the emphasis should be at this point , to try and adapt our educational machin e that we have to the people that want to use it. Mr.

Chairman, the other question that I might have, I think can prima ril y be over looked at this point , and again I would like to say that in terms of the post-secondary Task Force Report that the concerns that have been expressed by the universit ies in particul ar , have been commented on pretty adequately, I think, in their replie s, and I think that their

349 6 May 14, 19 74 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNNE RSITIES (MR . CRAIKCont•d) ..... concerns are fail ry valid. I feel , myself, from having simply observed the Universities Grants Commi ssion in operation for several years, that it has done a good job in its rol e, and I think the uni versities appear to be quite satis fied with it; that to introduce a commi ssion on post-secondary education as a permanent body would not appear to ehhance greatly the operation of our post-secondary systems, and I•ll leave it, Mr. Chairman, at that point with those comments. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honourable Member for Bran don West. MR.

EDWA R D McGILL (B ran don West): Mr. Chairman, I want to just add very briefl y to the observations of those that have spoken already in re spect to these estimate s. I note this is only the second time that the colleges and univ ersities estimates have been debated in the House and I think this is Year No. 3 for that particul ar departme nt, I labour under the handicap of not havin g had the benefit of the explanations of the Minis ter on his estim ates that were given I bel ieve last night in the House, but I did hear what he had to say today and there are stil l a few que stions that remain in my mind, Mr.

Chairman, a point that I have bro ught to the attention of the House in other years and which I woul d under line at thi s time , is in re spect to the Universities Gr ants Commi ssion, and I would say that in brin gin g this poin t to the attention of the Minis ter I in no way am impl ying any criticis m of the present Universities Grants Commission. On the contrary, I be lieve that the Commission has acted in a very re sponsib le way and I would like to pay tribute to the Commission, in particul ar to the Chairman, Mr .

Scott Bateman, for the exce llent work which I bel ieve he has done for the Commi ssion and for the uni versities of Manit oba. Mr. Chairman, it appears to me that as the number of uni versities increas e, at least we•ve had one addition in the past few years, and that when replacements or appointmen t s are made to the Commi ssion it would be reas onable, I think, to consider those with some bac kground other than in the Wi nnipeg ar ea.

It woul d be useful, I am sure , to the Commi ssion in future years to have someone with some local knowledge in the Br aiidon ar ea, and to the particul ar problems of Brandon University.

And if replacements are made in the cour se of time , J would strongly urge that the department consider appointments of people who do have this back ground and who are able to provide some additiona l info rmation on the specific and maybe particul ar problems that are faced by the young and rel ative ly small university in the western part of Manitoba , In readin g over quic kly the comment s of the previous Minister of Colleges and Universities, he did mention one ne w program and that was one which would provide special bursary loans for medical and denta l students who would und ertake to practice in Manitoba but outside of the Metropolitan Winnipeg ar ea, and I think it would be of great inte res t to the people of this province for the Minis ter to tell us just how this program is succeeding.

The former Mini ster was impre ssed with the fact that in the first year they had an unexpectedly large number of applicants, a total of 143 , and perhaps it is earl y to say, and ear l y to assess the benef its or otherwise of this prog ram, because perhaps those who applied for special loans and bursar ie s will not yet be graduated and not yet have been able to get into practice in the province .

But I do bring to the attention of the Mi nis ter :some rather di sturb in g figu re s whic h are avail able on the number of dentists in the Province of Manitoba, and whil e there are 270 practic ing dentists at the presen t time , only 66 of those are in rural Manitob a, that is outside of the Perimeter of Metropolitan Winnipeg, so that whil e in Win nipeg we have one dentis t for every 2, 200 persons, in the ru ral area there is one den tis t for every 8, 600 people. I think this is rather a surpr ising statistic.

So far as I know, it is reas onably accurate as within a month or two of the pre sent time , and so ... attempting to re late these statis tics, the lack of dental care in proportion to population which now exists in ru ral Manitoba as compared with that which is avai lable in Win nipeg . Perhaps the Minister can tell us whether we are about to reap the benefits of the special program which was introduced two or three years ago, or whether there are any diff icul tie s be ing experienced in producing more medical and dental professional people in the rural areas of Manitoba .

The Dental Society suggests that an optimum ratio of patients to professional people would be one in 1, 500 , so even the rel ationship in the Winnipeg areas falls somewhat short of id eal, but certai nl y in the rural parts of Manitoba we are sadly lacking in what would be considered even minimum dental care . This does not, of cour se,

May 14, 1974 3497 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. McGILL Cont•d) ..••• apply to all parts of the province and undoubtedly there are certain areas where no dental service is available at all , which would distort the over-all statistic , Mr . Chairman, I•d also like to comment brie fly on the building program which would be under consideration at the moment for the univ ersiti es.

I would suggest that probably it is somewhat small in re tation to previous programs in view of en rolments which now are more or less static , but there are areas in which undoubtedly some additional buildin g facilities will be requ ir ed. And one which comes to my attention is at Brandon University where we have a Faculty of Music that has achieved certainly nation al re putation, if not bey ond that, and one which is growing in a manner and at a rate which is perhaps out of proportion to other departments at the Univer sity .

I am told that their facilities are badly over- taxed and that other facilities at the unive rs ity do not of course lend themselves to the special kind of programs that relate to the Faculty of Music . And I would like the Minister to indicate whether or not the department is considerin g at the moment any addition to the present Music Building at Brandon Univer sity . Let me just brief ly comment on Special Progra ms, and I know that other members have noted the sudden increase in the amount for Other Expenditures under Special Programs at Community Colleges.

There is a growth of approximately 500 percent in these expenditures for this year . We•re up from $83, 000 to $44 3, 000. Mr . Chairman, does this inc lude the FOCUS Program ? Is this part of the reason for the greatly increased expenditure or are there other reasons perhaps that are not apparent to us ? Perhaps the Minister , if he has not alre ady done so, could give us some en lightenment in that department , On Youth Secretariat, I notice that salaries are up perhaps 100 percent.

Does this mean that staffing has increased to a great extent, or are salaries up more than what has occurred due to the normal ten percent increase which has been experienced in most depar tments?

My colleague the Honourab le Member for Riel men tioned some of the anomalies which appear to him to be related to the Community College operation, and one which he mentioned and which is quite apparent when one examines the Esti mates is the fact that the Community Colleges in Manitoba still operate under the direct control of the Department of Colleges and Universiti es, while uni versities themselves are operated and under the control of boards of governors and senates, I'm wondering why this is con tin uin g as a direct control.

It sort of flies in the face of the announced policy of the De partment of Education to provide more decentralization of the decisi on-making process in education, more local autonomy , and it would seem to me that if the Minister has not alread y done so, he should be seri ously considering establishment of some local control in the Community Colleges in Manitoba .

I do know that there have been Advisory Boards established to assist and advise in the operation of these community colleges, but I suspect that these are not active committees, and I suspect that probably they meet very infrequently and that their in put in the total direction of the community college is re latively small. So, Mr . Chair man , the final poin t that I would brin g to your attention would be that of the general criticism of the Report of the Task Force on post-secondary educat ion, and I'm not goin g to dwell on it because it•s already been raised by other members who have spoken, I see, Mr .

Chairman, that you're concerned about the tim e and I'm prepared to con ti nue following the break, MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. The time being 3:00 o'c lock, Committee ri se. Call in the Speaker . Mr . Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain res olutions , has directed me to report same, and asks leave to sit again, IN SESSION MR . .SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Vital , MR . D. JAMES WALDING (St. Vi tal): Mr . Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honour able Member for St. Matthews, that the report of the committee be received, MOTION presented and carried.

349 8 May 14 , 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Questions . The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SPIVAK: Mr . Speaker , my question is to the First Minister as Min ister in charge of Hydro . I wonder if he can confirm now that , as a resu lt of Hydro studies and the information now on levels , on water levels , that the community at Nelson House will dire ctly be affected by the Hydro plans and to a large extent will be under water as a resu lt of the increased levels to be raised . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister . HON . EDWARD SCHREYER( Premier) (Rossme re): Mr .

Speaker, I can confirm that as a resu lt of studies carried out by Hydro en gineers and others , that there will be an effect on the Reserve lands at Nelson House and also to a degree at the community . If my honourable friend wants precise numerical data, I would have to give that to him in writir �g. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister can confirm that it is expected that the water levels will be 30 feet higher than nor mal, 30 feet higher than normal leve ls. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr . Speake r, under very infrequent cir cumstances and under ice jam conditions at their worst, that is possible .

On the other hand , I should advise my honourable fr ien d that at the high level diversion for which tenders and contracts were almost awarded in 19 69 , that if it 's 30 feet now it would probably have been 80 feet or more . MR . SPIV AK: I wonder if the First Min ister can confirm when the native community at Nelson House were informed by the government of the level of water to be raised as a res ult of the Hydro development . MR . SCHREYER: Well, Mr .

Speaker , representatives of Manitoba Hydro have been assigned for many months now to continuing dialogue and impartin g of inf ormation as it became avai lable with greater precision, to the communities of South Indian Lake and Nelson House, and this process has been going on for several months . I believe that back last January or February and again in March , and again last month, the detailed information in this r egard was made known to persons and representatives of the community of Nelson House.

I might add that much of this information was not avai lable in 1966 at the time of the signin g of the Canada-Manitoba Nelson River Agreement, nor apparently in 1969 when matters were all set to proceed with the high level diversion. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. I. H. ASP ER (L eader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Mr . Speaker, my question is to the First Minister .

I wonder how or if he will reconcile statements he made in the committee last year, Public Utilities Committee, and the statement he made at Nelson House last year when, in repudiation of statements that the Li beral Party had made, he held a pencil up and he said to the people of Nelson House that "you will not be affected that much" - holding his finger approximately two inches from the edge of the pencil. Would he explain how he can reconcile that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR . SCHREYER: Very easily, Mr . Speaker. That reference was to Cross Lake and the transcr ipt will show that.

My honourable frwnd is about 200 miles out in his geography. MR . AS PER: Mr . Speaker , to the same Mi nister . Is the First Mini ster indicating to the House that he did not say to the committee last year that the people of Nelson House would not be affected by the diversion and the flooding of South Indian Lake ? MR. SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker , the incident that my honourable fr ien d is referring to , when the reference was made to a change amounting to a matter of in ches and in which a pencil was used for graphic portrayal, that was in reference to Cross Lake .

Insofar as Nelson House was concerne d, I don•t bel iev!:l that definitive indication could have been given inas much as the engineering studies were still then in process of being carried out and refine d. And certainly there is mitigation possible by way of the building of a weir which, if that is the desired course of action, then the change in the level of Foot Pr int Lake at the community of Nel son House can be held to a very minimum, practically no change in water levels . MR. ASP ER: Mr . Speaker , to the same Minister .

Does the new information that the province obviousl y has relative to Nelson House - is there any new infor mation pertai ning to South Indian Lake indicating that the levels there will be higher than the marks the government orig inally estimated ?

May 14 , 19 74 3499 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SCHREYER: Not to my knowledge, Mr . Speaker . I should also indicate that we feel that in carrying out the terms of the Canada-Manitoba Nelson River Agreement that we have mitigated by substantial degree the amount and extent of flooding.

If mitigation is to be carried out any greater than we have alread y - and I'm not now referrin g about social mit igation having to do with housing, etc. but mitigation with respect to red ucing levels of flooding, impoun din g, and diversion of flow - then it calls into question the very basis upon which the Canada-Manitoba Nelson River Agreement was si gned in the first place . MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ri el. MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speaker, on the same line of questio n. Can the Minister indicate what present actions they're contemplating to cope with the problem ? MR . SCHREYER: Mr .

Speaker , as I've indicated, representatives of Manitoba Hydro have been in frequent communication with represen tatives of communities of South Indian La ke and Nelson House, and I believe it was on the lOth of this month that I sent a letter to the Pres ident of the Manitoba Indian Brotherhood who had written on behalf of the community indicat ing a follow-up action in terms of further inform ation and dialogue with the community to see which of a number of alternatives they would prefer .

And also yesterday, I believe in the forenoon, the Chairman of Manitoba Hydro met and had a useful meeting with the Assistan t Deputy Minister of the Department of Indian Affairs in Northern Affairs , MR . CRAIK: Well, Mr . Speaker , I'm thinking of how they inten d to physically cope with it , Are they planning a dam structure to protect the town? MR . SCHREYER: Mr . Speaker, certain ly it is true to say that it is possible to mitigate the physical problem, it is possible to minimize to almost a complete extent the change in water levels on Foot Print Lake at Nelson House by means of the construction of a weir .

On the other hand before this is proceeded with a numb er of alternatives that could be opened to the community of South Indian Lak e, such as movin g of Nel son House, such as the moving of some houses, and improvements in housing in the community, are offered as an alternative for their consideration. So that there are at least two viable alternati ves. MR . CRAIK: Mr . Speaker , can the First Minister indicate whether the construction contemplated for control of this is going to have to take place on treaty land ? MR . SCHREYER: Affirmativ e, Mr . SpeaKer .

That •s the inf ormation I have that the construction of the weir would best be done on some land removed from the community but on reserve land, which is owned by Her Majesty in right of the Government of Canada. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boni face. MR . MARION : Thank you , Mr . Speaker , I•d like to direct my questions to the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Developmen t.

Has the Minister taken any action to urge the Manitoba Health Services Commission to alter its proposals to red uce the space in the planned Seven Oaks Hospital by 35 percent and to elim inate the maternity unit in that hospital ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. SAUL A. MIL LER (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Seven Oaks) : No , Mr. Speaker . The matter is in the hands of the Commission and a committee of the Commission and a committee of the Board of the hospital itsel f, they are now meetin g and discuss ing these matters. MR . MARION: To the same Minister , Mr . Speaker.

Is the Minister prepared to personally intervene and to suggest to the Commission that the function al plan that was pre sented on the Seven 0 aks Hospital by the Hospital Board over a year ago should be proceeded with immeidately rather than the proposals for the red uction of both the space and servic es ? MR . MIL LER: Mr . Speaker, a functional program is one thing, the size of the building around which you then construct that functional program is another .

I think it's in the terms of the size that the question of over size has been brought into question. · It's not a matter of cutting down the amount; perhaps it •s a matter of over design in the first place. MR . MARION: To the same Minister, Mr . Speaker. Will the construction on this project start in 1974 ? MR . MILLER: It is my sin cere hope that it will. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.

3500 May 14 , 19 74 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. .ASPER: My question, Mr. Speaker, is for the First Minister re sponsible for Hydro. Could he indicate how many more miles of land mi ght be flooded in the Nelson diversion scheme aroun d Nelson House if the weir were to be constructed, or the alternative programs were to be constructed? How many more square miles of land would be under water than the plan orig inally called for ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, to put the matter in context I suppose I could in dicate that as follows: If the weir is constructed then there would be something in the order of 800 acres of unsettled land that would be inundated ; if the weir is not constructed it would pro bably be in the order of 4, 000 acres, and that is to be taken in the context of the entire Churchill River diversion which initial ly was to be flooded to the extent of about 800, 000 acres, which has now been brought down to 20 0, 000 acres, and in that context 800 acres or 4, 000 acres . MR. ASPER: Mr .

Speaker, to the same Minister rel ating to the Federal Governme nt's announcement that it will provide fin ancial aid to the people of Nelson House to make their case on the flooding in court if necessary, has the Government of Manitoba reviewed and reconsid ered its re fusal to grant financial aid to the people of South Indian Lake in making their case legally to the courts of Manitoba ? MR. S PEAKER: The Honourable Firs t Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have checked on this with Manitoba Hydro.

It is not possible to ascertain defini tively that the Government of Canada has in fact officially declared its intent to provide moneys to be used in litigation to attempt to block or stop the Churchill River Diversion. Therefore I wouldn't like to speculate as to whether this may or may not happen.

For the moment I choose to believe that the Government of Canada being a si gnatory to the Canada-Mani toba Nelson River Agreement which specif ically provides for diversion of the Churchill River which diversion we have already moved to mit igate in physical terms that if there is litigation it may well be that the Government of Canada will be a party to litig ation against which it is litig ating and defending itself against one dep artment against the other. MR. ASPER: Well, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister.

Is it not frequently the custom and the policy of this government and other governments to provide funds to people in need who are then enabled to carry on litigation against government its elf, and if that is policy and has been precedented in this governme nt' s case in the past, will it consider making financial assis tance available to the non-treaty Indians of South Indian Lak e so that they too can have their day in court? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr .

S peaker, I'm not aware that it is or ever has been policy for the Crown to provide funds for litigation to block or impede the proceeding with an essential public work. The point of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that in the past and under our expro priation law moneys are advanced to persons, but it is moneys which are then subtracted from the final settlement made with respect to any damages, forcible taking or injurious affection. I'm not aware of ex gracia payments having been made by the Crown in the past for purposes of litigation against the Crown on matters of this kind. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Will the First Minister undertake to consult his files in the South Indian Lake dispute of 1969 and determine and advise the House whether the Government of Manitoba did in fact, as I understand it to be, provide the people of South Indian Lake with funds to en gage counsel to take action, and did take action against the Province of Manitoba, to obtain an injunction, and Hydro to prevent the hearing. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, I will not attempt to put myself in the min d of the honourable the former Minister of Mines and Resources, the Honourable Member for Lakeside who had that responsibility at that time. As I unders tand it, the policy was, and is still the policy today, that funds are available for legal services in the assis tance of preparing of a claim for compensation for damages actually incurred. I am not aware that it was ever the intention to provide funds for lit igation in order to stop what was deemed to be an essential public work.

And lest there be any doubt about it, a bill of law was introduced into this Assembly in 1969 when it was discovered that moneys provided by the Crown were being used not to provide legal assistance on presentation of claims but to attempt to block an essential public work.

May 14, 197 4 3501 INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the gallery where we have 16 Grade 5 students of Cranberry Portage Elementary School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Kostynyk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. On behalf of all the Honourable Members I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS (cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. I wonder if he can indicate whether any employees of his department were given leave to partici pate in the recent Nova Scotia general election campaig n ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LE ONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Bra ndon East): Any employees of the Department - are you talking about civil servants in the Department ? I'll take the question as notice, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, any employees who are civil servants of the depart ment. MR. SPEAKER: The question is taken as notice. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLO YD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the Minister of Industry and Commerce. Can the Minister confirm whether the Campbell Soup Company of Portage la Prairie has filed an appeal to the Canadian Manufacturers' Association asking for their support in stopping the Garrison Diversion because the change in water supply will force the closing of the plant in Portage if it goes through? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

I do not see that it is relevant what two outside parties are doing to the procedures of this House. The honourable member wish to rephrase his question ? MR. AXWORTHY: Yes. May I ask the Minister then, has he had direct conversation or negotiation with the Campbell Soup Company in Portage la Prairie to negotiate whether their fears that the Garrison Diversion will change water quality, will force the closing of that plant? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, although on many occasions I have had discuss ions with the Manager of that company, he has not been in communication with me rec ently about this or any other matter. MR. AXWORTHY: I could ask the Minister then: Has the Department of Industry and Commerce assessed what impact the Garrison diversion even in its most benig n form in terms of the change of water quality would have upon the various industries that feed upon the water supply in the Souris River basin in terms of their ability to continue or maintain their product qualities. MR. EVANS: No, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. HENDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agri culture. Could the Minister give us an explanation of how long it mig ht be before farmers will be able to market their hogs in a regular mann er ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (L ac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, in the event that the honourable member is not aware I presume they are always marketing their hogs in a regular manner. MR. HENDERSON: A supplementary question.

Is it not so that people cannot bring in their hogs to the packers at this time unless they phone and possibly arrange a week ahead? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, that is a regular manner when there is less demand than there is production. MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Firs t Minister. I wonder if he can in dicate the policy of the government with respect to leave by civil servants to particip ate in pro vincial or federal elections in other provinc es. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

3502 May 14, 1974 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, we have tried to operate in the manner of greatest amount of freedom of action in a way that was compatible wlth work that had to be performed. I can't say that we have had any specif ic policy in respect to whether or not a person wishes to ask for a leave of absence for any purpose whatsoever.

It is considered on the exigenc ies of the moment, I suppose, oftentimes - I shouldn' t say oftentimes but from time to time someone in the public service or attached to a ministerial office may ask for a leave of absence for a period of two weeks or a month without pay, in which case unless there is si mply an inabilit y to accommodate we try to accommodate. MR. SPIVAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I wonder then if I .take the position of the government as being that they will allow a civil servant if he asks for leave to participate acti vely in the provincial or federal election in another provinc e? MR.

SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, whether or not my honourable friend would choose to give credit to it I would say simp ly thi s: that if a request comes in for a leave of absence without pay and if that can be accommodated in a way that is not disr uptive to workload we will cer tainly try to accommodate. And whether that appli es for the purposes that he has suggested or whether it is with respect to someone who wishes a leave of absence in order to contest an election, federal or provincial, there, too, past practice shows that we would try to accom modate. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the First Minister can indicate whether that would be a Ministerial decis ion, a Management Committee decision or a Cabinet decision ? MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, that would not be a Management decision unless there is some reason for the Minister to want further guidance that is something which he is in the best position to ascertain in the circumstances of the operation of that particular depart ment. But the over-all policy is to attempt to accommodate providing such accommodation is not in any way materially dis ruptive of .the operations of the particu lar department or office. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. · MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Mines and Natural Re sources. Has he studied ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to advise honourable members that my presence is required at Government House. If there are questions to direct to me I would ask my colleague to take. them as notice. MR .. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the .Li beral Party. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

Has he examined a study made in September of 1956 and revised in 1957 by the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Administrat ion, and a further study made in 1964 by the Depart ment of Agriculture for Manitoba, I believe, of a plan to and a technique whereby the Souris River could be diverted in such a way as it would not enter the United States and therefore could not receive any salinity or other poll�tion through the Garrison Diversion ? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. SIDNEY GREEN, Q. C. (Minister of Mines, Resources and Environmental Manage ment) (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I have not seen or examined such a plan. I heard on Saturday in Brandon a proposal of that kind. I will look, Mr. Speaker, to see whether such a plan exi sts. I have not seen such a plan. Mr. Speaker, just while I'm on my feet I wo.uld like to indicate that the Economic De velopment Committee, unless there is great objection, would meet on Thursday for the purpose of the Moose Lake Loggers Report.

The Chairman of the Corporation of last year is available to present his report and I'll try and have this year' s chairman available to answer any ques tions, because I've indicated that last year's report is very dated and that there is new infor mation now. Unless there is serious objection I'd propose that that take place on Thursday at 10:00 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Mines.

Would he undertake to examine the study I re ferred to in my previous question and report to the House as to whether or not the plan prepared in 1956 and confirmed again in 1964 would in fact prevent the Souris River from entering the United States at all and thereby eliminating any kind of damage to Manitoba from the Garrison Diversion ?

May 14, 1974 350 3 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. GREEN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'l l undertake to try to have that report broug ht to my attention. MR. ASPER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister, a final supplementary . Should he discover that the plan is viable can we assume then, or would it be a fair statement that he will communicate this to the United States Government as being one of the options open to Manitoba should the negotiations not lead to a satisfactory conclusion from our provin ce's point of view ? MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'l l consider that but I would indicate to the honourable member that that would be forwarded to the Government of Canada and that the strategy relative to discuss ions with the United States on the Garrison are such as are co-ordinated between the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada as being the prime authority. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

With the government taking over the cost of operation of Assiniboine Park will there be a fee charged to get into the zoo? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism , Recreation and Cultural Affairs) (Springfi eld): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable House Leader. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Would we now proceed to the adjourned debates on second reading in the order on which they appear on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. . . . . . continued on next page

3504 May 14 , 19 74 ORDERS OF THE DAY - GOVERNMENT BILLS MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 43. The Honourable Member for St. James. MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr . Speaker, I wonder if I could have that stand please. (Agree

d) MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 49. The Honourable Member for Rhineland . BILL NO. 49 MR . ARNOLD BROWN (Rhineland ) : Thank you, Mr . Speaker. In speaki ng to this bi ll there is really nothing new in this Child Welfare Act. It is essentially a consolidation and modernization of exist ing_ legislation. One might have hoped for a greater emphasis on preven ta tive services to be applied while a child remains within his own family. Regardi ng the new day care centre provisio ns the most terms will be in the re gulations .

What an im provement it would be if the government would see fit to publish the re gulations when bills are introduced . Other wise the effect is that of a blank cheque. We will be waiting to see what standards are set for lice nsi ng of day care centres. The provision for subsidized adoptions will make it po ssi ble for a child to belong to a permanent home where a foster fami ly mi ght not be in a position to adopt because of the loss of financial support. There may be many such cases but it will defin itely help to some children to find a greater sense of bel onging to a family.

Hopefully the new descr iption of the role of the review board will decrease the strain between the board and the courts. Pr eviously court decisions had been re viewed and altered as if the review board sat above the courts. At the root of the problem of course was a scarcity of suitable treatment serv ices availa ble for youths. Child ren's psychiatric services have not had the priority they should. In fact with the govern ment's general posi tion of containin g ra ther than expanding hospital and medical services not much improvement can be anticipated .

While we unde rstand that the Manito ba Home for Boys and the Home fo-r Girls ar e actually expanding we don't see enough effort being made to shut off the conditions leadi ng to del inquency and the need for confinement . There has been little effort by this government to provide early treatment for a child in diffi culties and his family. It is necessary to treat the family unit which may be the source of trouble that society has to deal with. Not all parents dis charge their responsibilities as they should and it is sometimes neces sary for the state to step in in order to protect the child.

The ri ght of a child to legal counsel should be strengthened to insure that his interests are protected. This Act says that a judge may order legal counsel. The Ontar io Law Reform Commissio n's report on famil y law advocates the establishment of a law guardian who acts for the child and protects his rights in case of an annul ment, divorce, a custody dispute or adoption. He attends a trial on the child's behalf and in Ontario they felt that the social workers lacked objectivity at times in their reports.

The law guardian would present an independent opinion based on his own investigations and knowledge of laws that applied . I would like to quote from page 266 of that report, that's the report on family law, and I quote, "It is not ri ght to observe that the best int erests of a child in a custody dispute do not necessarily emerge from an adver sary proceeding between ri val contestants." This report from the Ontario Law Reform Commission makes very interest ing reading. It is written by lawyer s who recognize their limitations and feel that behavioral sci entists migh t have a very important contribution to add.

In contrast to exist ing Ontario legislati on, Manitoba 's old Act even looked good. There was much concern on their part to rem ove the term "illegitimate child" from the statutes, and I quote from page 25 of their law. "Whatever the ori ginal reasons were for setting apart the child born outside marriage, be they economic or moral, we cannot perceive any factor in modern society which justi fies laws which perpetuate this discr i mination . " They feel that all children have equal status.

Apparently an enlig htened Progressive Conservative government has already looked after this in Man itoba , since there is no re ference to illegiti mate children in our statutes except perhaps by oversight in the Devolution of Estates Act. That's (b) 70, Clause 15; and the Vital Statistics Act, Clause 4,

Section 3. The term "child born outside marriage" is less odious . To rem ove the stigma of bei ng set apart outside the law these acts should be amended. A tr icky si tuation arises when a parent of a child, say a mother, marries a person not the natural father of the child. When adoption occurs, the natural parent loses all ri ghts. Therefore the natural mother, as well as the new spouse, must adopt, that is adopt their own child . The new Act deals with this brie fly and it

May 14 , 19 74 3505 BILL 49 (MR. BROWN cont'd) ..... may not be clear enough what the consequences ar e of not doing so. Hopefully, the agencies involved in adoption procedures see that this is done. This is Sectio n 100, page 34. It is curious that a clause re garding the liability of a homemaker is left out of the new act. Is this an oversi ght? Protection against suit is provided for others who bear the respon si bility for children in their care, and this is the old act, Clause 19,

Section 4. I'd like to make another observation and that is that the act deals in some detail with the matter of medical treatment for a child whose parents re fuse 0:1 reli gio us gr ounds. In the past, this has been dealt with in a very emotional way, generat ing more heat than li ght and ri ding roughshod over every one involved.

The Ontario Law Reform Commission has left this matter to the Report of the Conference of Commiss ioners on Un ifor mity of Legislation in Canada; and let's hope that when their recommendations are presented this very difficult question will be resolved satisf actorily once and for all. Meanwhile, advances in medical science make the whole problem academic with the development of substitutes for blood transfusions. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member from St. Boniface the debate be now adjourned. MOTION presented and carried.

BILL NO. 60 MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 60. The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR . BROWN: Stand, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Bill No. 62. The Honourable Minister of Fi nance is absent. The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR . HARRY SHAFRANSKY (Radis son): Mr. Speaker, I have a change for the Economic, Development Committee. Substitute the name of the Mi nister of Agr iculture for that of the Mi nister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. MR. SHAFRANSKY: In other words, Uskiw for Turnbull . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health wish to move the motion for Supply? HON. SAUL A.

MILLER (Minister of Health & Social Development; Minister Responsible for Manitoba Housing & Renewal Cor p. ) (Seven Oaks) : Mr. Speaker , I beg to move, seconded by the Mi nister of Colleges and Univer sities that Mr . Speaker now leave the Chair and the House re solve into Committee of Supply to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carri ed, and the House re solved itsel f into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES MR. CHAIRMAN: The Department of Colleges and Universities Affairs .

The Mi nister of Colleges and Universities Affairs . MR . HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, I appreciate the concern of honourable members in wishing to proceed with the consideration of the estimates as rapidly as we could, and so we should, but I would like to very bri efly, Mr . Chairman, if I may, just respond to the debate that had transpired up to this point in time to which I have not had the opportunity to respond to. Last ni ght the Honourable Member for Lakeside spoke of the Dir ector of the Focus Program, and you may rec all,, Mr.

Chairman, that the way he spoke of it and when he spoke of academic freedom as it related to his parti cular function, he seemed to have proceeded on the premise, on the assumption that he was connected with a faculty of a university and in that capacity was offeri ng some service to the province. But that was not so. He was in our direct employ, on contract for one year with no provis ion in the contract for automatic ren ewals.

The contract came to an end, and for the reasons that I have indicated prev iously, the contract was not renewed, and I wish to repeat again that the decis ion was my department's, for which I take full responsibility and I was not subjected to any pressure or coer cion from anyon e. Discuss ions there were, with all partic ipating groups as to how to improve the quality of the program , how to make the program more meaningful and rel evant to the partic ipants, but so it should be.

Now per haps that style of operations is strange and fore ign to the Honourable Member for Lakes ide because that may not have been the manner in which the prev ious

3506 May 14 , 1974 SUPPLY - COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd ) ..... government operated, but that is the long and the short of it.

Now, the Honourable Member for Souris-K illarney was - you know, I found it rather amusing to hear his reaction to our STEP Program; perhaps he ought to consult with his col league, member of his caucus, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, because - and here again I'm speaking only from my notes, but I believe that on this point they're quite acc urate, that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry in speaking of the STEP Program, suggested that in fact, he called upon the government for expanding the program. He said that an expanded STEP Program would be welcome.

The Honourable Member for Souris-Kill arney spoke somewhat diff erently of the same program, and it would be rather interesting to know just what the position of the Conserv ative Party really is with res pect to this particular program. He was concer ned also about com puter co-or dination, and I only touch upon the highlights , Mr. Chairman. Now, through the Univers ities Grants Commiss ion, the computer services for all universities and colleges operate it as a unit.

A new co mputer was installed at the Univers ity of Manitoba for this ser vice last December and the effect of the service is to provide much bigger and much more sophisti cated computer fa cili ties for all post-s econdary institutions. The Honourable Member for Pembina, in speaking about bursaries, our student aid program - well I simply wish to state that all students in the province who are eligible for loans are given either all or part of their need in loans. The first $399. 00 of need is all loan. Ther eaf ter, the perc entage of loan starts at 75 percent and drops 30 percent at a need of $2, 000. 00.

Af ter that point, the loan rises to a maximum of 50 percent loan, at $2, 80 0, that is maximum 50 percent loan and 50 percent bursary. So it would be maximum $1, 400 each. There is cross-c hecking on data on a sample basis, and also as disc repancies appear in the var ious financial statistics as applications are asses sed. Now, you know, the thought of giving help only in the fo rm of loans would be, Mr.

Ch airman, a very retrograde step, in that it would inhibit immediately and most strongly the socioeconomic group which at the prese nt has been prior to the inst itution of our st udent aid program under- repres ented at the universities, and this ratio of proportion of under repres entation is decreasing through the ass istance of our student aid program; and they're the ones of the lowest soc ioeconomic group who have the greatest need for support and who have the least capacity to borrow.

The Honourable Member for Ri el rai sed a point that certainly is deserving of debate, is deserv ing of cons iderable debate, and had we had more time at our disposal then perhaps we could devote several hours of debate to the Post-S econdary Education Task Force Report. At the pres ent time honourable members would know that the Task Force Report has not been adopted as government policy and this certainly would be an ideal time to hear the views of the Opposition, to hear their reaction to the reco mmendations.

Whether honourable members would wish to devote another few hours to debating the Task Force is up to them. As has been said previously that estimates debate time is largely for Opposition members to analyze and scrutinize the estimates , and of course to do that effectively also necess itates government to explain its programs, and it's certainly an opportunity to examine and to question governments fut ure planning, and also to express its reaction to it.

In speaking of the Task Force Report, the honourable member made refe rence to acco untability, and he is quite correct that ac countability means more than merely thinking in terms of dollars and cents but also adaptability to community needs, and that is extremely important. An d the financial proposals of a Task Force were des igned to iso late the various aspects of the operation in order to provide support on a firmer base. He asked about the supply of doctors and I just wish to take a couple of minutes, Mr.

Chairman, to - the Supply of doctors and he was pr imarily concerned about what impact the special opportunity bursaries have had on the supply of profes si onalists in these two fields . Well, in the figu res that I have here, and this is a just very brief comparison, I just wish to relate to you the location of practice of recipie nts of special opportunity dental bursaries who rece ived their doctor 's degrees in the year 1972 and '73 .

In 19 72, there were - yes there were nine graduates practic ing in Manitoba; six located themselves in the province excluding Winnipeg, two in the Ci ty of Winnipeg; and one of those two by the way, has set up a satellite practice outside the city, and one is deceased. In 197 3, of the 19, and there was one who withdrew from the course, which is included

May 14, 1974 3507 SUPPLY - COLLEGE S AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd ) ..... in the cotmt, nine are practic ing in Manitoba outside Winnipeg, three in Winnipeg; and of thos e three one conducts a satellite practice outside the city. Three are in Winnipeg providing greatly needed services, and they would likely be employed in various clinics dealing with either CO RE city people in providing services fo r people who could not nor mally af ford to find their way into a dentist's of fice as those higher up on the socioeconomic ladder may be able to do. Three are in Canada outs ide the Provi nce of Manitoba.

Now the story insofar as dentists are concerned, with reference to doctors in 1972. Location of interns hip; 34 in Manitoba, three in Canada but not in Manitoba and five in the United States, for a total of 42. In 1973, 36 in Man itoba, five in Canada outs ide the province and five in the United States, for a total of 46.

The locatio:�. of practice: five in Manitoba excluding Winnipeg - this is of the 172 graduating group because the '73 graduating group is not as yet practicing medicine because they are completing their year of internship; five in Manitoba excluding Winnipeg, four in Winnipeg, again providing highly needed services; eight in pr ivate practice and three of the eight also provide the highly needed services in the ci ty. So that gives us a total of 17, and 18 are continuing their training, for a total of 35, and four are outside the Pro vince of Manitoba but in Canada, and three in the United States .

So of the seventeen in the active practice of medicine all with the exception of five are either practic ing in rural Manitoba, or if they are in the Ci ty of Winnipeg they are in the highly ess ential ser vice areas. Then the Honourable Member for Ri el spoke about our community colleges and of course so that - yes , and so did the Honourable Member for Souris-K illarney and his concern was nameplates on the building. I must conf ess, Mr.

Chairman, but I really don't know - I regret that the honourable member is not in his seat - I do not know what nameplates he's referring to and I feel absolutely certain that no nameplates were removed. That is if we're thinking of the same nameplates. If we're thinking of the name of the building that appears on the out si de that's one thing. Changes in names of buildings have come about; this is nothing to do with what government is in.

Now I could understand, appreciate the honourable member's con cern if the day after we became the government we named Red Ri ver Community College as Woodsworth Community College and As siniboine as Knowles Community College and another one as something else but that wasn't so. The name of the insti tution was changed to Community College to reflect the type of program that it now offers . An d that's the long and the short of it. Now the honourable member who is speaking from a seat not his own, I'm not really paying any attention to him.

If he wishes to make a speech he knows where his seat is and he can return to it and I'll be glad to yield the floor to him, and then I will hear what contr ibution the honourable member wishes to make to the estimates debate. But fr om where he is I'm not paying any attention to him, Mr. Chairman. An d I am glad that you agree with me, Mr. Chairman.

But if the honourable member is referring to nameplates and plaques that are mounted in commemoration of an opening of a building or whatever I'm sure that all of those plates, plaques, whatever one wishes to call them are still there and different names appear on dif ferent o:�.es as they do in this building. There are various plaques around the Legislative Building commemorating certain fu nctions, certain events and the names of the premiers of the day or of the Ministers of the day whoever may have partic ipated in that ceremony are still there.

Now with respect to the growth of community colleges , well the period of the most rapid growth of community colleges is past, but new courses are coming on track and a number of them. So on the one hand there's a taper ing off but then new courses are attracting other students who previo usly would not have had an opportunity, there wasn't a spot for them be cause there wasn't anything of concern, of benefit or of value to them that was of fered that they could take advantage of, so the two sort of tend to even out.

And then of course. one must remember that the enrollment for many of our community college programs is direct ly related to the willingness of the Federal Go vernment to purchase man power training programs and to a large extent is dependent on that. Now the Honourable Member for Ri el also did mention the fact that - yes he made two points. One, he commented upon the appropr iation to administration. Now the reason for that, it's not a doubling of staff but you will note that there is a - well the reason is that the

3508 May 14 , 1974 SUPPLY - CO LLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd ) ..... co mputer service which formerly was connected with and appeared in the Estimates Book under the Red Ri ver Community College appropriation which amounts to $461, 000 has been transferred to administration. So hence the increase. And this of cou rse reduced Red Ri ver Community College's appropriation by that amount, subject to the inflation factor of course which had an off- setting effect on that. He also commented on res earch and development.

Now earlier the rese arch and develop ment fun ction had to be centr alized because of the need for co-ordi nating the growth and development of all the community colleges in the Province of Manitoba as well as operating in many areas in a co-or dinating capac ity with other departments that were closely involved. In the format ive years it was building these needed linkages and now it's reached the point where full multi-year planning is goin g on at each college and each college does its own research and development because each now has the capacity to function in this manner. So therefore, Mr.

Chairman, planning is growing stro nger but it's true that the research and development budget is smaller as the colleges and other agencies are sharing in the effort. The Honourable Member for Ri el - co mputer cent re ? No, I've co mmented on that. Now with reference to counselling on careers and opportunities that a university education may provide, making such a counselling service available or more extensive in rural Manitoba.

You know, I must agree with the honourable member and I'm sure that never will we reach the point in time when we'll be able to say that we're doing everything that must be done in terms of familiarizing our students with all the career openings that they have at their disposal.

An d even if one were to provide all the information that one has and prov ide it in a most appealing and attractive manner it's still doubtful whether one would be able to reach each and every student, because we're all human beings and young people are ce rtainly no differ ent from our selves in this Chamber, that,you know, we can look into the fu ture so far and beyond a certain point well the degree to which we concern ourselves about what's going to happen to us 15, 20 years from now, the degree to which we prepare ourselves for it you know tends to decrease the farth er that point in time is away fr om us.

But whatever has been done in the past this not only is contin uing but it is expanding by way of attempting to inform the students of the programs available to universities through a more aggress ive advertis ing campaign. The Univers ity of Winnipeg, for example, has made a film for showing in rural areas. Brandon Univers ity has 22 students working on a STE P Program to deliver informat ion about Brandon University to rural Manitoba and in the north.

Red Ri ver Community Colle ge has a trailer which has been moved around Winnipeg during the winter to shopping centres and will be going out to rural Manitoba during the spr ing months and next fall. An admis sions confer ence was held earlier this year to include the three universities, three colleges, students, teachers, trustees, counsellors and others met to discuss ways and means in which better inter-rela t ionships could be promoted and information with respect to admissions proc edures could be di sse minated more effectively.

The 36 Gr ade 12 students of Frontier Co llegiate have been guaranteed jobs for the summer in the Youth Cor ps and will re ceive special

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-1-126
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 1st hansardpdf 126.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4b84c166a773ee29d0e0314dbf1ea388da554634

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