Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 44 (27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-44

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

Duff Roblin ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 189 Harris Blvd. , Winnipeg 12 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man, 2 - 1177 Henderson Hwy,, Winnipeg 16 102 Handsart Blvd., Winnipeg 29 .steinbach, Man. Thompson, Man. Rathwell, Man, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Man. 225 Kimberly St. , Winnipeg 15 Ridgeville, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Teulon, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Man.

Hamiota, Man. 406 - 365 Hargrave St., Winnipeg 2 142 Larchdale Crescent, Winnipeg 15 Lac du Bonnet, Man. 326 Kelvin Blvd., Winnipeg 29 La Broquerie, Man. 1109 Alexander Ave., Winnipeg 3 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Morris, Man. Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Manitou, Man, 7 Massey Drive , Portage la Prairie 435 Yale Ave. W., Transcona 25, Man. Winkler, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Roblin, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Meadow Portage, Man. 138 Dollard Blvd., St. Boniface 6, Man. Lundar, Man. 381 Guildford St., St. James, Winnipeg 12 333 St.

John's Ave., Winnipeg 4 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital, Winnipeg 8 · Room 250, Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg., Selkirk, Man. 168 Burrin Ave. , Winnipeg 17 Nesbitt, Man. Beausejour, ·Man. Swan River, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Killarney, Man. Kenton, Man. 594 Arlington St., Winnipeg 10 412 Paris Bldg. , Winnipeg 2 Legislat.ive Bldg., Winnipeg 1 I I �

'l'HE LE.GISU.'IlVE ASSEMELY OF M/INITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, JYiarch 16th, 1964. MADAM SPEAKER: ':('he Honourable Member fo:r Brokenhead. MR.

SCHREyER: Mada.m Speaker, before 5:30 I wa� making the point that back in 1961 I had taken the stand that the matter of public aid to parochial schools was one in which If elt, at least, that the people who held the conviction that they wanted their children to attend a parochial school, they should have this convictio � honoured, not only by way of allowing them to send their children to a parochiaJ school at their own expense but also to the extent -- they should be honoured to the extent that: they would be allowed to, either directly or indirectly, have some portion of thei:r; taxe� directed toward the support of parochial schools.

I took that stand cm the belief, or on the conviction, that where funda mental civil rights or minority rights are concerned, we shou[(! be prepared to extend and to aid the exercise of this right to the fullest extent possible, and that we should not simply aid and allow the exercise of such rights that might be found to be popular or convenient, because to take such a position is to make a mockery of the impo.rtance of the exercise of civil rights.

I be long to a party that has the philosophy of social de moc:r;acy, and that philosophy tries to hark closely to the philosophy that the public good must come first and therefore if laws and ministerial regulations are necessary for the carrying out of programs in the public interest this must be done, and if this meant that some individual rights were in fringed upon we could take no other stand but that rights should be honoured to the fullest extent possible , bearing in mind the over-riding imJ?ortance of the common good and the public interest, and I take this precise same stand here, that unless you can prove that the common good or the public interest demands that no aid be extended to parochial schools - unless you can prove so by means of a valid and comprehensive study and supporting data, then you have no right to deny the exercise of certain rights to individuals or members of a minority group or groups.

And! am still not convinced that in lar�e urban areas in this province that we could not extend a measure of public aid to parochial schools. I'm not convinced that we couldn't do this while still protecting and safe�uarding our public school system from any kind of encroachment. In rural areas, I think l should make it clear, my belief is that in rural areas to aid and abet the establishment or construction of parochial schools would detract from the optimum enrollment population of our country schools.

I believe that there is such a thing as an optimum enrqllment per school district or per school building, and to do anything that would detract from this optimum enrollment would, in my opinion, be undermining the public interest or the qommon good. So therefore I could not be prepared to support aid to parochial schools in such areas, but I insist, and it's worth repetition, that in urban areas we would in no way be detracting fr Qrn the optimum enroll mcnt of our many large schools in the City of Winnipeg and the suburbs.

Then it becomes a question of adding a little perhaps to the tax structure but that ii.> not the same.

That is not the same as detracting from the optimum enrollment of a school, because to do that is to really make it impossible for that school to operate at the maximum level of efficiency, and so this is how I justify my attempt to get the government to incorporate into its resolu tion the provision that this committee shall study, not only the feasibility of shared services program, but at the same time and while they're at it, to study the po�;Jsibility and the pro bability of having a measure of aid to parochial schools in urban centres and to study to see if this is not possible without detracting f:rom the optimum em;ollment of our schools as they now exist.

I think that we must do this in fairness to the minority groups. 1 think, moreocver, we must do this in fairness to ourselves because I get the distinct impressiqn that we are re fusing to acknowledge reality here. We are pretending that to deny aid to parochial schools- we're pretending that this does in no way encroach upon the fullest possible exercise of fundamental civil right. And we are also hard put to justify our practice and Qur stand when we relate this to the practice in other provinces, and so we go to all lengths �;JUbconsciously and within ourselves to try to justify what we are now doing.

I think it's evident that we do that when we look at the 1·esolution•s sponsor, because March 16th, 1964.

(Mr. Schrey er , cont'd) .. . the first three points made in the resolution are to me very much open to criticism. May I say, Madam Speaker, that it is one thing to bring in a resolution; obviously what's involved in one's res olutions is a matter of political judgment. Certainly this government and the First Minister are entitled to their political judgment. We can only argue and debate the efficacy of that judgment.

But it is another thing, Madam Speaker, to postulate three principles which are acade mically inaccurate , or at least questionably accurate , because I want to make the point that when we talk of "the separation of Church and State as that expression is understood in Manitoba, " we are really making a statement that has very little academic accuracy to it. What do we mean by the ·separati on of church · a:nd state in Manitoba?

Is there such a thing as the separation of church and state in Canada, and moreover, what -"- if we're going to explain what we have in mind in this resolut ion, please start by explaining what is meant by the separation of church and state because, in the first place, that statement is a 19th century concept which really is , if I may use the expressi on, a shibboleth.

It's a convenient platitude and not much more, and even if you do embrace the concept of separation of church and state in the 19th century concept, how do you relate this to what we are asking for here when we ask for a measure of aid to parochial schools, because when we speak of separation of church and state we usually mean, I presum e, that the state shall not single out one denomination and favour it to the exclusion of all others . That is what is usually meant by the separation of church and state.

There will be no singling out and granting of special position to one particular denomination, but to grant a measure of public aid to parochi al schools is not to single out one denomination and to grant it a special position and this simply should not be ignored. It would be different if the government were asked to grant ameasure of public aid to the schools of one ' particular denomination and to reject the requests for similar treatment by those of all other deno minations. Who's asking for this? No one.

So therefore , to speak of the granting of aid to parochi al schools -- to speak of it as though it means the est ablishment of a church, is to me perfectly ridiculous.

It just simply doesn't make any sense . .And if we were to take this concept as expressed in the resolution to its logical conclusion we would end up being forced to stop the making of grants to hosp itals that are run by church groups ; we would be forced to stop saying prayers here in this Asse mbly at 2:30; in fact, let me quote from the opinion of one of the justices of the American Supre me Court, in which country, by the way, the separation of church and state is more explicitly dealt with than it is in our country, and despite that explicit provision in the .American Constitution this is what one of the judges of the Supre me Court had to say, and I'll just read a couple of sentences .

He says , and I quote: "The first amendment" and that's the one that deals with the separ ation of church and state clause , "The first amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of church and state. Rather it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways in which there shall be no concert or union or dependency of one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter. Otherwise the state and religion would be alien to each other, hosti le, suspicious and even unfriendly.

Churches would not be required to pay property tax; municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups; policemen who help parishioners into their places of worship would violate the constitution; prayers in our legislative halls , appeals to the .Almighty in the messages of the President, the proclamation making Thanksgiving Day a holiday, the oath 'So help me God' in our courtrooms, these and all other references to the .Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals and so on; would be flouting the first amendment.

A fastidious atheist could even object to the supplication with which the court opens each session, namely, 'God save the United States and this court. '" This is quoted from the majority opinion written by Mr. Justice Douglas of the American Supre me Court. So I just want to point out that when we talk about the separation of church and state, let's not use it as a platitude .

If we're going to use it at all let's define what we understand to mean by the term, and I for one insist that to grant aid to all denominations is not tantamount to dis regarding separation of church and state; it's not tantamount to establishing a religion; and therefore for whatever argument you're going to use to refuse to grant aid to parochi al schools don •t use this one, because it doesn't make much sense. And then further, actually in the

preamble of the res olution, it says , "Whereas in Mani toba, constitutional provisions, juridical decisi ons and political determi nations prescribe three Page 1148 March 16th, 1964.

(Mr, Schreyer, cont'd) ... general principles," which follow, one of which I've dealt with.

Those three phrases there, "constitutional provisions, juridical decisions," those two cut of the three should be deleted, because the academic fact of the matter is that it's political deter mination that has prescribed these three principles, not constitutional certainly not juridical decisions because, anyone who wants to hark back to the period of the 1890's will know that the judicial committee of the Privy Council in handing down it's decision in this matter said to this effect, that while the legislation of 1890 did notprejudicially affect the rights held by Catholics prior to union :-- it admitted this -- nevertheless it did prejudicially affect the rights held by Catholics, Anglicans, and other minorities, rights which they held after the union, and so the judicial committee held or was of the opinion that minority rights had been flouted and that there was legitimate cause for appealing to the federal government to take remedial action.

So how can you say that juridical decisions have indicated that there shall be no granting of the measure of aid to parochial schools? On the contrary, juridical decisions, the most important one, held that rights gained by these minorities after the union had in fact been prejudicially affected. So much for juridical decisions. What about constitutional provisions? If members will consult the last volume of our revised Statutes of Manitoba they will find there the Manitoba Act,

section 22, sub -clause 2, and what is the effect of

section 227. It states there, it was put there in the first place to give a safeguard or a protection to minorities insofar as their rights in education were concerned. The provision of that statute, well that statute still stands. We have simply been disregarding it since 1890. Furthermore,

section 93 of the British North America Act, which is an imperial statute, sub-clause 3 of

section 93 contains the very same provision as

section 22 of the Mani toba Act, namely, that rights held by minorities with respect to education shall be safeguarded and if they are infringed upon the minority shall have access to appeal to the federal government. These are the constitutional provisions, Madam Speaker, and to say otherwise, to imply that constitutional provisions seem to dictate that there shall be no granting of aid to parochial schools to me is simply stating the converse of what was actually intended in the first place.

I have taken this stand since 1961 ever since I really addressed myself to this problem with any amount of concentration. I shouldn't perhaps say this but, to be candid about it, I have had some inner struggle to come to this decision because for one thing I do not, and I might as well say so, I do not feel as strongly about this as the Member for St. Bonif ace. That is why he has been carrying the fight, and there can be no qnestion about that.

I come from a background that has never felt too strongly about the exercise of this right to exercise prior parental rights in education to the point of attending parochial schools and so on.

In addition to that I have felt from time to time that the church of which I am a member has in its own schools turned out young people who, although of excellent moral quality -- I'm giving credit here to parochial schools -- excellent in that respect, nevertheless I have always felt that inso far as their social outlook is concerned -- well put it this way, I've never found enough pro gressive thinkers coming out of parochial schools, and I might as well be frank about it, it's just a matter of values and certainly even though I feel opposed to parochial schools on this ground, it's only a minor objection, because certainly those who believe in tradition and the respect for the status quo, obviously we have to have those in our society too, but I've felt at times that the products of these schools have been too much imbibed with the worthwhileness of the status quo.

They have not been progressive enough. In that way I find myself out of keeping, or out of sympathy with products, or graduates of parochial schools. But despite that, Madam Speaker, one does not have the right, such as myself, to oppose something because it does not happen to coincide with my own feeling of the matter. One must come to a conclusion on the basis of what is in itself the right thing to do. And I conclude that there is a very real right here that exists. The possession of that right can never be taken away from these people. They should be allowed to exercise it to the fullest extent possible.

The only block, or obstacle, or provision that we should insert that would detract anything from that exercising of their right is the common interest in the public good. And so, unless it can be proven to me that to grant any aid at all would be to detract from the effective operation of our public school system, I have no alternative but, not only to vote but to fight for the extension of some aid to parochial schools. I think that we in Manitoba should adopt some of the attitude that has been adGpted by public March 16th, 1964. Page 1149

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd) ..• figures in the Maritimes -- in other provinces too, but particularly in the Maritimes ever since Confederation. They have their problem there as between inter denominational relations bu t they have always been able to work out acceptable arrangements. On what basis, do you ask? On this basis, and I quote: I quote the Honourable Mr. Fielding, a Protestant who was also Premier of Nova Scotia for many years, and this is what he had to say on the matter: "We have no separate schools as such by law in Nova Scotia.

But I say that we could not have brought about that happy condition which they have if we had not been disposed to meet our Roman Catholic brethren" -- and I suppose you could insert the word Anglican, and others -- "in a generous spirit. " Unquote, the former Premier of Nova Scotia.

And further, to quote an even more illustrious historical figure in Canadian history, the Honourable Joseph Hall, who had this to say: "We may make education a battleground where the laurels we reap may be wet with the tears of our country, but without mutual forbea1�ance and a spirit of compromise we can do little good and make no satisfactory and permanent settle ment of this question.

" The net effect, Madam Speaker, is that here in Manitoba I am convinced that there will be no satisfactory solution -- at least one that will at best be satisfactory to only one side, if I can use that term -- unless such time comes when we are prepared to exercise magnanimity, and I'll repeat the word, magnanimity. This is some quality which we must have if we 're going to attempt to reach a conclusion or solution that's at all worthwhile. And so far, I'm sad to say, there has been no attempt on the part of men in high places to foster this kind of feeling in this province.

And while what I have said tonight might be unpopular on both sides, at the moment Pm convinced that if not now, at least in ten years, and certainly within a generation there will be a greater amount of magnanimity shown and that eventually we will reach a settlement that will be acceptable to both sides. It won't be possible until there is magnanimity, and I think the sooner we learn the meaning of that word, with all its connotations, then we'll simply be bickering and continue to bicker.

Now the effect of this resolution is an attempt to move out of stalemate, but I am not sure that we are going to accomplish that since it is really couched in such terms as to put only one side of the matter into an area of investigation. While we're at it, and I repeat, Madam Speaker, while we're about to set up a committee to investigate the feasibility of shared services, why not at the same time investigate the feasibility of granting a measure of aid to parochial schools in -- well all over the province for that matter, but particularly in urban areas where it seetns to be more feasible than in the country.

And I would hope that someone will find this pl'oposal of mine meritorious enough to want to incorporate it into the resolution by way of amendment. Unless we do that, I have to conclude that we are simply avoiding the nub of the issue, and that would be cause for sadness on the part ofthose who hold themselves as the champions of civil rights, minority right·s in this province. MR. A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Madam Speaker, I find it very distasteful to have to disagree with my colleague from Brokenhead, but after all, this is a matter of conscience and not one of party.

I want to say at the beginning that I agree with the three principles as out lined in the First Minister's resolution -- it has to do with the separation of church and state as that expression is understood in Manitoba; 2. The dedication of public funds to the support of a single public school system open to all children; and 3. The freedom to maintain private schools supported by private funds. I see nothing wrong with this and I must say that I think that the presentation of this resolution at this time is an earnest attempt to try to bring some order out of chaos on this important subject.

I probably will not make as academic a presentation as my learned frie'nd, my colleague here, but I hope it will be nonetheless sincere. First of all I want to challenge him, or anyone else, on this question of minority rights. Hind it very hard to agree with the fact that there is · such a thing as minority rights in a democracy. I was brought up on the understanding that the maj ority have to rule -- just as in this House when we disagree severely, we simply have to smile at the finish and go along with the majority opinion. Now I think that this howling of minority rights is wrong.

I believe that so long as we have individual right, so long as the individual has the right to worship as he pleases, and do the things that he's guaranteed by the Constitution of our country, he hasn't too much complaint. So I want to disagree right at the Page 1150 March 16th, 1964.

(Mr. Wright, cont'd) ... beginning on this question of minority rights. I think if we 're going to allow every little group in our country to keep crying about their minority rights, we're going to be in trouble. It's the individual rights of a person, and they certainly have individual rights. They have the right to establish their own church and their own schools.

I want to say, as I understand it, the onus for change is on those people who want it, and these people who want this aid will have to prove to me that they will not harm the thing that I'm for -- and I might say, Madam Speaker, I was invited in 1961, and when the pressure was on the MLAs to stand up and be counted, I did just that. And I gave it a lot of thought just as my colleague did on my left.

I attended a meeting in North Winnipeg with, I imagine, 300 people -- I take it I would be probably the only Protestant there -- and I might say that I received a wonderful reception that night, and I had to tell those people that I was absolutely against them. This was hard to do.

But at the beginning I told them I wasn't really against them, but I was for something, because after all I have no prejudices when it comes to this sort of thing, but I am "for" some thing, and I am for the public school system so strongly that unless anyone can show me where they will not undermine it, then I will have to respectfully disagree with them. This is the point, and I would suggest, the onus is on them to show us that they will not hurt the public school system. I don't see why we have to prove that they can have these things.

Now it's not going to take me 40 minutes to state my case, because I'm stating it pLlrely on a matter of principle, and I can never agree to the use of public funds to further a private belief, and it is my belief that if we do usy public funds to the different private and parochial schools, and goodness knows, the recommendation as brought forward by the Commission in 1960 was that it didn't mention the simple matter of Protestant and Catholic. We have many many private organizations who would probably want a school here.

And I can see, and until someone -- I must say that I have an open mind on the matter --if someone can convince me that this can be done without undermining the thing that I am for, then I guess it must be interpreted that I will never agree to the use of public funds to further a private belief. MR. FRED GROVES (St.

Vital): Madam Speaker, I think that one of the words that the Honourable Member from Brokenhead used, the word 'magnanimity', is very important, but I think that before we can get that, we've got to put all our cards on the table, and we've got to deal with this problem with all the aces showing, so to speak. And there's no point in us trying to debate these matters in the House unless we have done that and unless we are prepared to say in the House those things that we are prepared to say pri vately outside the House.

So I say one of the first things we have to have before we get magnanimity, is to get all these statements out in the open where we can examine them and then get down to discussing them.

One of the first things, Madam Speaker, that I think we have to examine, is what do -- and I use the word Roman Catholic not from its religious connotation but because of the fact that this is the group that seem to be most interested in receiving aid for their parochial and private schools -- and I think that the first thing that we have to look at, as I said, is what do these people actually want for their children from our educational system? And I say these things not critically, but only as a statement of fact as I know them from sources which I will list. First of all, the Honourable Member from St.

Boniface in his statements in this House has told us some of their aspirations. I have been told by Roman Catholic parents in private conversation some of these aspirations, and I have been told at meetings held in my constituency with Roman Catholics at which members of the clergy attended. These meetings were called by them, with myself, to discuss the school problems. We also can determine some of these aspirations from briefs submitted to and dealt with, not only by our own Royal Commission on Education but on the Royal Commissions that have functioned in the provinces of Alberta, B.

C. and Ontario within the past five years. And I have studied these reports. From these sources, Madam Speaker, I have come to the conclusion that what at least the Roman Catholic advocates of public schools want is complete segregation on a religious basis for all of their children, from the time that they enter school, be it kindergarten or Grade I, to the time that they leave high school.

They want, I have gathered, their own Catholic university, their own Catholic teachers for Catholic children, their own Catholic teachers' college, their own text -books written for and approved for the use of their schools and their own curriculum, and direct representation to watch over their interests in the Departments of Education. And from what I can gather, Madam Speaker, they want all these things -- and I March ·16th, 1964. Page 1151

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) ... don't criticize their wanting them -- bttt they want them all supported by public funds. And I think, Madam Speaker, that we should have a look at the report of the I Royal Commission on Education in Alberta and in particular

Chapter 30 in which they dealt with their recommendation and the briefs which they had received relative to separate schools in that province. On page 268 of

Chapter 30 of that report, it says this: "At the level of pro- vincial organization, another criticism closely related to the foregoing was raised, namely that subtle and perhaps unconstitutional changes had taken place in the competition of governmental policy-making bodies, and that as a result the Catholic population is no longer directly represented as in past years within the Department of Education. The implitation is that such Catholic mem- bers as may be in the Legislature provide inadequate representation for purposes of Catholic _education.

A further implication is that representatives acceptable to the Catholic Church shol!ld sit on a specifically constituted committee or in the departmental offices to safeguard the interests of the separate school system." This, Madam Speaker, is in a province where they have a sepa- rate school system. I With respect to teacher training the Royal Commission says this: "Specific statements were offered to the effect that an important element of the education of teachers for the Catholic separate school system involved the preparation to interlock the whole educative effort with the teachings of the church.

It was not made clear to the Commission whether the desirable prepara tion was mainly philosophical or theological in nature, but philosophy courses now offered by the Department of Philosophy and Psychology of the Faculty of Education were deemed quite inade quate.

Special courses presumably in religion and religious education or preferably separate Catholic teacher training institutions were suggested." On page 269 under the heading Curri culum: "The contention that teachers need to be trained differently for the separate school system was supported by another claim that not all content apparently suited to the public schools is acceptable to the separate schools. Presumably content should be screened and selected to ex clude anything which might stimulate pupils to think along-lines inconsistent with Catholic theology.

Several examples of offensive materials were pointed out. Logically then,. specific course con tent would be chosen to further Catholic aims of education, with texts specially prepared as in struments to accomplish these aims. Present curriculum and texts are found wanting in the above terms." And on page 270: "By intent, the Department of Education has exercised its function in such a manner as not to discriminate between separate and public schools.

Throughout hearings, how ever, it appeared on several occasions that separate school supporters felt their rights had been transgressed, but not to the degree, apparently, that required a resort to the courts. What ever violation may have occurred cannot be established otherwise.

Therefore, the Commission could study separate school problems only in the light of what their rights and privileges are thought to be as evidenced from present provincial practice." And still on page 270: "Since the regroupings of districts might not perpetuate the minority, it is requested that persons of the same religion as those wishing to operate separate schools should all be permitted to assign their taxes in support of the separate school system, whether in minority or not.

Under such circum stances children whose parents are of Catholic faith could achieve their edttcation under ideal conditions in better schools and segregated from all others of different religion. To complete the organizational reformation, curriculum and texts should be scrutinized by religious authorities ·for their acceptability, teachers should be separately trained and the religious minority should have special representation in government offices.

Separate school champions aspire to a com pletely dual public school system." "The indiscriminate establishment," -- this is on page 271 -- "of some separate school districts in Alberta, may be taken as a tangible indica tion of the priorities of religious over secular tasks of educatton, particularly in rural areas of small school population and limited resources.

The formation of sep,rate schools has resulted in such fragmentation of the public school system as to produce inevitably substandard educational opportunities." And I submit, Madam Speaker, that in connection with the last line of that paragraph, that this happened in some of the districts of Manitoba. We are told by the Honourable Member from St. Boniface, Madam Speaker, that we should implement the recommendations of the Royal Commission that reported to this Legislature some two years ago and that they would be satisfied with this. We are asked by people that advocate Page 1152 March 16th, 1964.

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) ... aid for parochial schools to do what other provinces do, and they would be satisfied. Well, Madam Speaker, it's another case of "distant fields appear to be greener. 11 In Ontario, for example -- and this province is constantly referred to as one which we should look up to in connection with this matter of aid to parochial schools -- we find if we really dig into the situation that all is not as well in Ontario as we are led to believe. For over 100 years, Madam Speaker, Ontario has had a separate school system, largely Roman Catholic and financed by public funds. Listen to what the Ontario Royal Commission of 1950 had to say about this, and I quote from

Chapter 29, page 492, and I ; vant you to remember, Madam Speaker, that this is after 100 years of state aid or public aid to parochial schools, and after 100 years of this, this is what the Royal Commission on Education in Ontario said: "No phase of our inquiry has con sumed more time or proved more difficult than that of Roman Catholic separate schools. Here we encountered a conflict of principles which still makes the problem as impossible of solution by agreement as it has been for the past 100 years.

A minority of the Commission, who are submitting a separate report on the question of Roman Catholic separate schools, subscribe to the principle that religion must permeate all education and that to achieve this goal in the education of Roman Catholic children, the schools attended by them must be integrally Roman Catholic.

While not departing from the brief that in a Christian nation religion should inspire education in the schools, the majority of the Commission are of the opinion that the school is but one of the three great educative institutions, the home and the Church being the others, and that a publicly supported system should avoid the special doctrines and dogmas of any particular church, but should be governed by those fundamental principles of Christianity which are held in common by all men of good will.

It should be frankly stated that all members of the Commission entered upon their task with the hope that some satisfactory solution to the diffi cult problem of Roman Catholic separate schools should be quickly found. The alternative proposals which now form the basis of separate memoranda and a minority report were advanced to the Commission as a whole, and their practicability given full consideration. Long, earnest, frank and friendly discussion ensued but did not end in conclusive formula or unanimity.

The ma jority of the members felt that the minority proposals contemplated an unacceptable extension of the jurisdiction of separate schools and were, insofar as they related to administration, im practical. " And on page 493: "If there is no finality then what was meant by those proponents and opponents of Roman Catholic separate schools when they used the term 'finality' nearly a century ago? In this last respect a point must be remembered, which the general public all too frequently overlook.

No right or privilege in our school system was granted at any time, or preserved influentially or otherwise, to the Roman Catholic Church or any church as a religious body, organization or denomination. The rights and privileges which exist by law were granted to individual Roman Catholic and Protestant ratepayers.

The basic right or privilege given to such a ratepayer was to elect to separate his support from the common or public school system, and in conjunction with others who were like-minded to establish a separate school." And on page 494, item 10: "For many years the existence and growth of Roman Catholic separate schools have been subjects of acrimonious debate.

As recently as 1934 a prominent Canadian educator wrote, "For nearly a century, separate school and sectarian issues have operated as a divisive influ ence in our national life.' The briefs and memoranda submitted to us bear witness to conflicting opinions still firmly held on those subjects." Madam Speaker, I suggest that perhaps these words could be even written today, or about the situation as it exists today in the province of Manitoba, that these words were written about a situation that has existed in Ontario for a hundred years, a province where they have a separate school system and where that separate school system is financed by public funds.

Now, I rather liked the presentation of the Honourable Member from Brokenhead. I think that he approached this from a calm and dispassionate -- although I don't agree with what he said I certainly agree with the way in which he said it, and Madam Speaker, if we were to solve this problem in the manner of speaking that the Honourable Member from Brokenhead, in the way he spoke, I think that we would perhaps have much less difficulty than I can foresee, but what we are faced with in Manitoba is not this particular attitude towards this question. Mr.

Arthur Mauro of Winnipeg, in a recent editorial in the Catholic Weekly Paper, has been named the chairman, and I notice in tonight's paper has been elected the President of a committee March 16th, 1964. Page 1153

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) ... called the Committee to Establish an Association for Equality in Education. A clarion call has gone out, Madam Speaker, in a far different vein than that which the Honourable Member from Brokenhead relayed to us tonight, for Catholics of French, Anglo Saxon, Ukrainian and other ethnic origins to unite. Anybody that doesn't believe this should read·the editorial in the Sunday Herald of March 8, 1964.

I have no intention of reading it all but I think that the last three paragraphs are important: "Not only should the new association be guided by leaders chosen impartially, no matter what ethnic origin or language, they must never allow themselves to be swayed by their political allegiance which has been in the past the most serious factor of disunity among the Catholics of this province, nor should professional standing, financial interest or social rank interfere in the least way to unite for a cause which demands, above all, the sacrifice of personal ambition, a deep understanding of brotherhood in Christ, and strong religious conviction.

They must speak out as Catholics although their poli tical party ties would enforce them to remain silent. They must stand up and be counted, even if this calls for the ruin of their political, financial or social career. The next few months will show to the world who are the true Catholic leaders in Manitoba. " Madam Speaker, I wonder if this is the declaration of war which was referred to in one of the speeches by the Honourable Member from St.

Boniface, and in my opinion, if this isn't advance notice that the next provincial election is going to be fought on the basis of whether you are a Catholic or a Protestant, I don't know what is; and Madam Speaker, it's most t.:: lfor tunate and regrettable that this is the attitude that some people who advocate aid to parochial schools are taking. We who believe in a strong public school system must also unite to see to it that the activities of this group and any other group does not result in a campaign which, if successful, could seriously impair the working of our school system in Manitoba.

Madam Speaker, this is something that we must all be guarding against in the months ahead while this committee is sitting. Now with respect to the shared services, Madam Speaker, I mentioned in an earlier debate on this subject that I had some reservations and, Madam Speaker, I don't believe in beating around the bush. I said before I started these remarks that I thought that one way of solving our problem was to get them all on the table, and I intend to put these reservations that I have about shared services on the record now so that there will be no doubt about where I stand on this matter.

I would like to repeat two statements that I made earlier in this House. One was that by conscience I believe it to be wrong to segregate children on the basis of religion. I believe that it is wrong for we members of this House to stand up and say that it is wrong to segregate in some northern school districts of our province Indians from white children, and at the same time to advocate the segregation of these same children on the basis of religion.

I believe that it is wrong for us as individuals to be ashamed of the segregation of whites and negroes that takes place in the southern states of the nation to the south of us, and yet to defend or to advocate the segregatio!l of children in our own country on the basis of religion. This is what my conscience tells me about this matter, lVIadam Speaker, and I am against public funds being used for aid, directly or indirectly, to support private or parochial schools.

I believe in a strong public school system to prepare students for life, to prepare them to make a living in a complicated, technical and scientific society, and I believe in strong churches and in good Christian homes to prepare our children after school hours for the life hereafter and for the moral side of life, so I must approach this problem, Madam Speaker, from these two matters of conscience.

I am prepared to vote for this resolution, to give the plan that was announced by .the Premier a chance to go before this committee and to be considered, but I reserve my right, Madam Speaker, after the committee has reported, to carefully examine its recommendations and, if I see in them public aid directly or indirectly to private schools, to vote against any legislation that adopts these recommendations. There may be many ways in which shared services could be a wedge i.n the door or a first step towards public aid to private or parochial schools.

There is no doubt that shared services is going to make available to private schools, or the parents of children attending private schools, a saving in the way of monies that they are not going to have to use if shared services comes into effect, on more teachers, on gymnasiums, auditoriums, chemistry labs, physics labs, shops facilities and facilities for teaching home economics, all of which they are going to have to do Page 1154 March 16th, 1964.

(Mr.

Groves, cont'd) ... in the next few years if their children are, on graduation, going to be able to compete with children from the public school system, so if shared services then makes it unnecessary for the advocates of private schools to spend funds on these facilities, these sav ings could be passed on to the parents of private school children, or they could be used to further expand the system of private schools, and this could result -- and I can see this result ing, Madam Speaker -- in more and more children being withdrawn from the public school to the detriment of that system and further complicating our problem.

This is only one inter pretation that could be taken from shared services and which, in fact, has been taken from shared time programs that are operating in the United States.

There are many others, but I agree, Madam Speaker, that the time to debate those is after the committee has reported and we see in detail what shared services means in terms of their recommendations and what legislation might be necessary in order to accomplish this, and in particular we want to know what regu lations this committee is going to recommend in order to prevent shared services from being harmful in any way to the public school system. I have one other fear, Madam Speaker, and this is a real fear. What happens if shared services doesn't work? Can we withdraw shared services if it doesn't work?

Or in the event that it doesn't work is the answer to give private schools financial aid in order to be able to render these services themselves? Not often, Madam Speaker, have governments been known to withdraw benefits but rather to extend them in order to make them more acceptable or more workable, and I want to be sure, Madam Speaker, that if this committee recommends shared services to us, that there will be strong built-in controls to ensure that this doesn't happen. Once shared services becomes official the government will have no control over its workability.

Those who advocate aid to parochial schools, or I should say those who are operating parochial schools and our school division trustees are the people that are going to have to work together to make this system work, and if they can't do it and we get shared services back in our laps I want to know in advance what we do then. With respect to my desire and that of the Honourable Member from St. Boniface wishing to have members of this House stand and be counted on the main issue of public aid to parochial schools, no amendment to this resolution is necessacy.

No advocate of public aid to private schools could in conscience, and in my opinion, stand up and vote for the -- at least three of the things that are stated in this resolution. The first item: the separation of church and state, as that expression is understood in Manitoba; the dedication of public funds to the support of a single public school system open to all children; and further on in the resolution: and that in its consideration of;the aforesaid the Committee shall adhere to the principles set out in the first

preamble thereof. I can vote for this resolution, Madam Speaker, with th.e full knowledge that in words at least the three portions of the resolution which I have read is a stand by this government and this Legislature, if the resolution passes, against approval of public aid to parochial schools. If, however, the committee's recommendation as to how shared services will work brings this into conflict with any of these principles, then, Madam Speaker, I shall not accept shared services.

The resolution that we have before us, Madam Speaker, deals with shared services, and shared services or no shared services we might as well face the fact that we are really dealing with public aid to parochial schools .. Shared services, whether we want it to be or not, is going to be judged in the light of whether it. is or is not aid to parochial schools, and I think the Honour able Member from Brokenhead mentioned this in his address. Those against public aid to parochial schools are going to look on shared services with a great deal of suspicion.

Those for aid to private and parochial schools have already declared themselves against it in the most, I would say, certain language.

Those that shared services has been brought in to help are now fighting against it, despite the fact that this government has said by this resolution, "No public aid to parochial schools except shared services." And if that resolution passes, th is Legislature has said in effect, "No public aid to parochial schools except shared services." Despite what has been said, or what is in evidence in this resolution, these people that I referred to earlier in the editorial from the weekly paper are banding together to fight for government aid to parochial schools, and they can have, Madam Speaker, in mind only one of three things: First of all, the changing of the government's mind on the matter of public aid to parochial schools; the changing of the Legislature's mind and thus resulting in the defeat of the government; or, March 16th, 1964.

Page 1155

(Mr. Groves, cont1d) ... organizing on a religious basis for the next provincial election. The latter; in my opinion, Madam Speaker, seems to be the strategy as I see it, and we should watch this situation very carefully, for it means that we are going to have, or could have, serious difficulties in the months that lie ahead for the people of Manitoba. We have to ignore, Madam Speaker, when. considering shared services in this light, many, of the tracts, magazines and letters which are sent to us by members of the public, because we do not know how respon� sib le they are or what may be their real moves.

We certainly must, however, take cognizance of authoritative reports, such as the two Royal Commission reports that I read from earlier in my remarks, and two others that seem to come from persons of authority, and, Madam Speaker, I think I have one of these here. It's a docum•ant called' "Pu blic Schools in Manitoba are non sectarian." And it is written by a Reverend A. J. B. Cossette, 0. M. L, Lynn Lake, Mani toba. Now I presume, although I'm not sure, that this gentleman is. one of the lay brothers of one of the Orders of the Catholic church.

Madam Speaker, he says a lot of things in this document that disturb me, and I will merely quote them to emphasize what I've said, that in addition to looking at shared services we have to take into consideration what authoritative people and organizations are doing and saying outside of this House. "Were it not for inflaming the ever-glowing embers of bigotry and for drawing whipping political reprisals, the Province of Manitoba could be sued for millions of dollars for violating The Public Schools.Ac t.

" On page 2, "God is censored on the school steps outside, victim of the incantation separating church and state, and the red carpet is laid before the Good Lord's competitors. This is obviously no separation of agnosticism and the state, nor is there a separation of questionable literature and the state." Madam Speaker, I refute this because in 70 years of operating a public school system in Manitoba I think we've graduated some pretty prominent and some pretty God-fearing people. So I certainly would like to refute the fact that God is censored on the front steps of the public schools.

Then he goes on to say, "Atheists, materialists, Communists and nim-Christians enjoy preferential treatment in the public schools by having all the tax money on their side. In order to share public benefits from one's own taxes, one is forced to join the ranks of the irreligious and submit to a curriculum of "take this or else. " In the U. S. A. and in Manitoba that is the price of religious liberty, an expense spared the heathen, the. sole protege of the state." And remember, Madam Speaker, this is written by, not some nut, but by a rrierober of a teaching order of the Roman Catholic Church.

"Incredible is the approval of so many Protestant divines. So many of them create the impression that God is better served by being ignored and that it is more expedient for Christianity to concede all tax-supported public benefits to_ the irreligious rather than share them. " So, Madam Speaker, how can we consider even such a small step as shared services in a calm and dispassionate manner when such things as this are issued from places of authority?

And, as I say, I'm ignoring the many other tracts and pieces of literature that come to roe from people whose knowledge of the subject or those authority I question.

Now there was one other: "In all the loud bigotry against aid to private schools, no on in the Legislature, Liberal or Conservative, nor in the Department of Education, no school inspec tor, no school principal, no newspaper editor', no Protestant Church went on record to demand impartiality in the study of controversial matters." Well, Madam Speaker, I don't know what goes on in the inner sanctum of the Department of Ecl.ucation, but if it does any good I can certainly state that as far as I'm concerned I believe in the public school and any place else that controversial matters should be studied in an impartial manner.

And after all, Madam Speaker, I think that over a period of time, labour unions have had the same problem. After all, they also complain that sometimes our text books.don't show labour unions in their real light; that they tend to go back to the early history of labour unions when the management-labour relations were spiced with violence. And· I think that they have a case too, and that if our history books in the Province of Manitoba aren't treating the Reformation and the early problems of the Catholic Church and the early history of labour unions, I ....... that they should be asked to do so.

But this, to my mind, is not the way to bring this about. And then finally: "It was on such legal grounds -- the religious half-hour remedial clause in The School Act is plain poetry. The concession is left to the discretion of school trustees, who Page 11 56 March 16th, 1964. I

(Mr. Groves, cont'd) ... may either deny, as they have done, or constantly argue the justification of what they consider an encroachment of the more important academic subjects, and for whom, the trustees, religion and superstition are synonomous. Principals never cease to negotiate for a reduction in the number of half hour religious instruction periods.

When tolerated after much quibbling precious time is lost in the transferring assembly of the pupils who at the closing bell are perfunctorily shown out with God Save The Queen."- Again I ask, Madam Speaker, how can we deal with this in a calm and dispassionate manner when we receive documents such as this from people in authority? And finally, Madam Speaker, I want to deal with one other authority, and that's the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. He's been speaking at meetings as well. And here's what he says: "We should ignore the politicians and try and find another road, St.

Boniface MLA Larry Desjardins said Sunday, Mr. Desjardins stated bluntly that politicians haven't done a thing to solve the separate school problem.

The Li beral MLA recommended that the Committee of the House which Premier Roblin was setting up to investigate the shared services plan be ignored by the Catholic group because it would be starting from a set of principles opposed to direct aid to parochial schools." So, Madam Speaker, I think that no matter how we're going to try to deal with this thing on its merit and in a calm and dispassionate manner, that this is not going to be our doing, but these things are going to be decided, that the way in which this is looked at is going to be decided by persons and by statements and by documents such as this that are made and issued outside of the confines of the Legislature.

And it's unfortunate that it appears that we're going to have to. set up a committee to review shared services in this type of an atmosphere. It's also unfortunate and regrettable that it appears that the advocates of private and parochial schools are organizing now on the basis of fighting the next provincial election on the school issue.

During the time that our committee is going to sit to consider this matter, Madam Speaker, I think that we must all search our hearts and our souls for the right answer, and I hope that those who constitute this committee can come back to this Chamber a year from now and give this answer to us.

I don •t hold out too much hope that they will bring in a complete answer or a final answer, but perhaps if we give them the chance, at least on the shared services plan that is under consideration they can bring us back recommendations that we can look at and perhaps accept in the spirit of at least trying to solve this problem that's been with this province for so many years. Thank you. MR. DESJARDlNS: Madam Speaker, may I ask the honourable member a question? Did he or didn't he say that in his mind the way this is worded that no one favouring aid to separate schools could in conscience vote for this motion?

MR. GROVES: What I said, Madam Speaker, was that no one who stated that by conscience they believed in state aid to parochial schools could subscribe to Item No. 1: the separation of church and state as that expression is understood in Manitoba; and 2: subscribe to the dedication of public funds to the support of a single public school system open to all children; and 3: they could not agree that this committee would be set up and that in its consideration of the aforesaid, adhere to the principles set out in the first

preamble hereof. MR . DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, the honourable member is in fact saying then -- this is what I want to get clear because he's read something that I've said --he thinks this is awful. You said that nobody favouring aid to private schools could vote in favour ..... MADAM SPEAKER: Could the honourable member ....... Order please. MR. DESJARDINS: ...... of this motion -- right or wrong? MR . GROVES: Nobody who is in that category could subscribe to those three passages which I read. MR. SCHREYER: He says that he likes to put his cards on the table.

I would like him to put his cards on the table for me when he says, when he refers to principle 1- - what does he understand by the separation of church and state? Does he understand by it that if the state were to grant aid to all denominations that that would be joining church and state? MR. GROVES: I think the Premier explained that when he introduced the resolution this afternoon, that it applies strictly to the school system in Manitoba. MADAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? March 16th, 1964. Page 1157

MR. ROB UN: ....... .. Madam Speaker , the question is the adjournment of the debate by the Honourab l e Member fo r St. George. MADAM SPE AKER: The seconder is not in his seat. MR . ROB LIN: In that case, I think you had better move the adjo urnment again and have it pro perly do ne. MR . GUTTORM SON: I beg to move , se.conded by the Honourab l e Member fo r Emerson , that the debate be adjo urned. Madam Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote dec lared themction ca rried . . . . . . . . . . . . . Continued on next page. Page 1158 March 16th, 1964 .

MR. ROB LIN: I understand the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks would be agree able to speaking on the resolution respecting the Dental Health policy now, and if so it would be ap preciated if you would call that order of busine ss. MADAM SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed resolution of the Honourable Minister of Health. The Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks . MR. WRIGHT: Madam Speaker, in rising to speak on this government resolution I feel like the fellow whose m other-in- law drove over a cliff in his new car -- my emotions are all so mixed.

My first reaction is to oppose this res olution out of a feeling of lack of confidence in this government. The very fact that this resolution is before us is the admission on the part of this government that the amendments they proposed to the Dental Act in 1960 have not been suffi cient to satisfy the citizens of this province. Since 1960 there have been many prosecutions under the Act and mwh public dissa tisfaction.

It seems to me that an alert government, a government which claimed in the last election that it was the government that •gets things done ' -- I like to keep referring to this little pamphlet because it shows all the cabinet ministers with their shirt sleeves rolled up here and they are really trying to give the impre ss ion that they do get things done . Now if they were a government that gets things done they would have made a study long before now.

One would have thought more notice would have been paid to the Paynter Report of 1956 -- and I' d like to read from page 15 Madam Speaker; this has to do with the whole question of ancillary assi stance for dentists. On page 15 under "Training mo re ancillary personnel in the dental profession 11 and I'm quoting: 11It was reported in 41 that the average Canadia n dentist gave treatment to about 1070 patients in the year 1953-54. In Manitoba the nu mber was 1137 . Furth ermore this provided service for about 35 percent of the populati on.

When such figu res are translated into present and future population for this province, it means that if all the people were to receive the same service as those who are now getting it, Manitoba would now require some 745 dent ists, an immedi ate addition of about 480; and in 25 years the province would require about 1100 dentists.

This if it were pos sible would require training of vast nu mbers of dental personnel over the next few years, a very time consuming, expensive and unne cess ary procedure. 11 I stress •un neces sary procedure 1• More people should be served by each denti st and this can be done only by increas ing the number of hands he was available. ln other words there should be a marked increase in the nu mber of ancillary pers01mel used in practice . At the present time there is only one type of worker being trained -- the dental hygenist.

Hygenists are girls with a minimum of two years training in a dental school following matriculation. After graduation they may be licensed to work in Manitoba and elsewhere in a dental office, public health tmits or institutions under sup ervision and to perform certain services in connection with dental practice. Their services are largely in the field of oral prophylaxis and education. It has been estimated that the use of a hygenist in a dental office inc reases the number of patients that a single dentist can serve in a year by about 40 percent.

The services that a dental hygenist is able to perform are limited and it is the opinion of this writer that further types of ancillary personnel can and should be trained to relieve the dentist of many more of the laborious time-co nsumi ng, although valuable procedures which he is now required to pe rform in his office, thu s freeing time which could mo re advan ta<:eously be used in diagnosis , treatment, and planning, etc. The creation of such a program is new but inevitable . Leadership for it should properly co me through the dental profession, specifically through dent al education.

And the ide a is not new. It has been forecast by several leaders in the past; Dr. G. Edward Howe, President of the University of Western Ontario stated in 1951 -- and I quote: '• Three years ago here I said that the changing concept of health is slow, so too is the tortoise, and progress can be ma de only when a suffi cient num ber of people, again like the tortoise, are willing to stick out their necks.

When are we, as suppose dly sm art men and women in the health profess ions, going to realize that we can either continue to give leadership in health or we can resist the changes which are inevitable and which people desi re: and if we do the latter we simply lose the prestige and freedom which have been inherent in our professio ns in the past.

If we are to take advantage of our present position and keep it where it belongs all we have to do is realize that a su ccess ful health service -- and that is what the public wants, either organized through health agencies or promoted through the recognition of newer responsibiliti es by the practitioners of the healing arts -- depends basic ally and prim arily on medical education, dental education and .nursing March 16th, 1964 . Page 1159

(Mr. Wright cont1d) .•..• education. 1 1 A. Ler0y Johnson, former Dean of the Harvard School of Dental Medicine has in his re cent book "Dentistry as I See It Today " quoted . . . . • . . . . . . • . • as follows: 11It is apparent that medical care including dentistry, can be made available on an adequate plane to the entire population only if traditional procedures are som ewhat altered and adapted.

The time and effort of men ·t rained at great expense to society.cannot be wasted on anything which can be safely delegated, under supervision, to those of lesser training. 11 And Johnson himself expressed it, and I quote: "That the insertion of fillings, the construction and adaptation. of crowns. bridges, and plates are valuable is beyond ques tion. Nevertheless· they are an expediency and exacting, time consuming service , the de mand for which is overw helming and the cost beyond the reachof many.

The dentist does what he was trained to do, does it well, more hands are needed; but to rest con tent with laurel thus gained, to revel in repair, co mpromis es the status of dentistry as a profes sion. The professi on exists to serve the public; its controlling motive is to shape its practice so as to serve more and more people and when it becomes dominated by the guild spirit in its cruder sense and is content with obvious insufficiency it fails to meet the obligations of a professio n.

" Madam Spea ker, when this question of a triangle of dentists, dental technicians and denturists first came before us, I recei ved considerable corre spondence from my constituents asking me to support the denturists and I answered them by sa ying that this matter required a lot of study. This much I promised and set for myself certain rules: I must not ride on the bandwagon of organizeq public demand, even if it were politically enticing, before giving much study to the subject.

(2) I must not do anything to hinder the construction of the Manitoba Dental College or the Faculty of Dentistry at the Uni versity or to discoura ge young people from enrol ling in the Dentistry Course ;

(3) I would meet with both the denturists and dentists to hear their different views; and

(4) I would talk to people the names of whom would be given me by both the dentists and the denturists . And starting out I found there were two groups of dental me chanics , one called dental technicians who worked for the various dental laboratories on a so rt of mass production basis.

These mechanics had a wide range of skills but because they specialized more or less under the conditions that they worked they specialized in one operation and they did not as individuals have the all around skill of the denturist who did all operations including the taking of the impres sion, I found too that the wages of the technicians working for the labora tores, which did the work for the dentist, were not as high as the earnings of the denturists.

In 1960 I had hoped that the two groups would come together into one organization with a view of -raisi ng the standards of their vocation and also to bargain for a fair

schedule of wages. This has not come about. It was my opinion then, that the dentists were keeping the laboratory technicians subse rvient to the desire to make money from dentures rather than treating them as an ancillary partner in the great cause of dental health, This attitude has in my opinion been the ma in reason for the existence of the denturists.

My second re action is that of admiration for the dental profession in general; their attitude toward preventive education, fluoridation and the donation they ma ke with their services to, or have made in the past to the various health units when they were beginning to function was mo st comm endable . And I' m not as worried as the Honourable Member for St. Vital about their earn ings. Most dentists work long hour s; they work with people .and pain. This can build up extreme tension, and they have no emp loyer paying a share to a pension fund or to health and welfare benefits.

I am more concerned about the quality of their work and how we are going to get more dentists, especia lly in our rural areas. The Minister of Health in his submission to the Royal Commissi on on Health Services in 196 2 sa id that there was only one denti st for every 6800 people in the rural areas, that is the area outside of Metro Winnipeg. He also said that only 16 percent of children starting school at age six had received proper dental ca1;e and that 60 percent were growing up with some type of ma l formation of the teeth and jaws.

The new Faculty of Dentistry at the Univers ity of Manitoba has been the first bright spot to show in trying to solve this enormous problem . The next was the· opening of the Portage Avenue Dental Clinic, operated by the Manitoba Dental Assoc iation where first class service I under stand, is available to all and where a complete set of dentures can be purchased for $85. 00. I Page 11 60 March 16th, 1964.

(Mr. Wright cont•d) •...• think we have reached the point now where this government will have to do mo re planning for the future on this subject of Dental Health -- and here I am reminded again of that classic definition of Stuart Chase •s about the word "planning". He says it is in telligent co-operation with the inevitable. This government must face the inevitable fact that people are now regarding proper health care as a practical objective in this second half of the 20th century.

It must find a way to get our dentists into rural areas, even if it has to subsidize those willing to go there; and there is no doubt, that a much mo re broad-mi nded attitude towards the training and the greater use of ancillary personnel will have to be adopted. Madam Speaker, it is with this fervent hope that I believe even at this late date, that a speCial comm ittee can perform a service of lasting benefit to the people of Manitoba. M.!\. DAM SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR . FROES E: Madam Speak er, I beg to mo ve, seconded by the Honourable the Member for Dufferin that the debate be adjourned.

Madam Spe_aker presented the mo tion and after a voice vote declared the mo tion carried. MR. ROB UN: Madam Speaker, I beg to mo ve, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair, and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Madam Speaker presented the mo tion and after a voice vote declared the Motion carried and the House resolved itself into a Commi ttee of Supply with the Honourable Member for St. Matthews in the Chair. MR. CH AIRMAN: Department VIII, item 2 (

I) Psychiatric Services, passed. MR . S. PETERS (Elmwood ): Mr. Chairman, I mentioned v.hen I spoke on the Minister's salary that I' d be asking him questions about psychiatric nurses or registered psychiatric nur ses that they have at Selkirk and General Hospital. It mentioned in the Order of Return the num ber of psychiatric nurses at Selkirk and the trainees and the separations. Now I don't know of the separ ations whether they were trainees or whether they were mo stly people that had grad uated and were registered psychiatric nurses. I would like the Minister to arnwer that for me.

I also understand that he •s on a camp aign, recruiting psychiatric nurses, I understand in Great Britain. I don't think that they have a surplus of registered psychiatric nurses in Great Britain. I was just wondering who are they recruiting? Are they recruiting practical nurses or are they recruiting anyone that wants to come to Ca nada? Those are the questions I' d like answered at this time. MR . CAMP BELL : Mr. Chairman, perhaps the Minister would like some of the other questions before he answers? If he 'd rather do it the other way, it's all right with me. I think that I have a reputation in the House, Mr.

Chairman, that I• m not usually advocating increased expenditures and frequently am checking the amount of mo ney that is spent; but I think that the record will show that this is one service where I have never been critical of the am ount that is expended, because I have been encouraged by the reports that have been given year in and year out as to the results that are obtained, and recently, in fact, in the Free Press of March 12 th there is a Health Week mess age reading with the larger headline saying, "Treatment Success ful for Mental Patients. 11 This does not ema nate from· the departm ent here but rather from the Ca nadian Mental Health Association.

It, once again aroused my interest in this particular ques tion and I would like, if it has not already been given, the Minister to review some of the fig ures as to how the adm issions and the discharges from the me ntal hospitals are coming along. I saw recently a report -- I don •t think it was this one -- but another one that said that four out of five people who enter the institutions now are discharged within a year. Now I know that it •s hard to tie down some of the statistics. I know that there are some pe ople who go regu larly into the institutions.

Is one of those persons who goes regularly into the institution, per haps checking in every six mo nths, let us say -- I presume he is considered just as one person, not as two admissions. I would like to know the basis on which these figures are kept as to how ma ny new patients go in and how many of those go out?

Now in this question of cost, I carried forward once again the same thing that the First Minister and I were talking about a few evenings ago, and while we are talking of psychiatry services in general, I want to give the figures as I have taken them from tre present estimates and estimates of years back -- the same years as a ma tter of fact that I was speaking of a few evenings ago. You will notice under the Brandon Hospital for Mental Diseases, this is on the March 16th, 1964. Page 1161

(1\Ir. Ca mpbell cont 'd) ..... next page , but it is under psychiatric services, we have a net figu re there, so far as salaries, supplie s, expenses, less board of two million and a half in round figure s. I checked as to what that figur e was in 1959 -,- it's $2! million now, it was $1 million and a little less than a half in 1959. In 1953, taking it the same distance back again, a sb: year space in each case, it was just over $1 million. Now thos e figures in themselves \vould certainly not indicate a decrease in the num ber of patients .

Similarly in Selkirk, the figur e here is $2, 12 8, 000 odd; in 1959 es timate it was $1 , 156, 000 even; in 1953 it was $694, 000.00. And once again I want to ma ke it plain I•m not criticizing these expenditure s. This is one place where I hold that if we can restcre these folks to their normal way of life, this is a service that certa inly deserves full support.

I'm aware of the fact that even though these figures would in di cate that the num bers are not being cut down, I cert ainly am conscious that cos ts have risen and no doubt the cost of keeping a patient in the institution for a given length of time is much more now than it was back in 153 or even '59 . In that connection I would like the Minister some time to give us what is the cost per patient nowadays in the instituti ons, by the day, or the month or the year as he wishe s. But the ma in story that I would like to get Mr.

Chairman is how are we doing actually as far as rest oring these folk to their normal way of life; with a given number of admissions going into the hospital what is the average stay ; how ma ny of the ones who came in in a given year have gone out again within one year 's time, within Jwo year •s time ; how ma ny haven 't got out for several years time. Now I don •t know that asking questions will elicit the whole story that can be told in here, but it is the story that I would like to get on the record as far as pos sible.

If the Minister has a comparis on with the hospital population of a few years ago, and what they are now, I'd be glad to have them too. HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Health) (Flin Flon) : Mr. Chairm an, I'd like to answer first the questions that were posed by the Honourable Member for Elmwood. Most of the nurses that are leaving afte r graduati on, I find about 7.0 perc€!1 t of them are leaving because they get married. But we don •t exactly lose them because after a period of time, afte r they have been ma rried they return back into the services of the hospital as registered psychia tric nur ses.

Of the others, we lose .quite anum ber to the hospitals here in Winnipeg that have psychiatric wards . The instituti ons of the department are the only instituti ons that are training ps ychiatric nur ses and so we do have a drain- off take place from the hospitals here in Wirmipeg and in othe r places whe re they have psychia tric wards.

With respect to the recruitment of people from Great Britain, we are recru iting ma inly people who have degrees over the re, as registered me ntal nur ses and peo ple who have a combin ation of degrees as registered nurses and registered mental nurses and another combination of perso ns who has actua lly been in the education field in both of these areas. Bu,t in every case , particularly in the case of the psychiatric nur ses, the se nur ses have to be licensed by the licensed psychiatric nur ses of Manitoba and meet the standards of the licensed ps ychiatri c nur ses of Manitoba.

I lmderstand that some 17 of them have come across at the pres ent time. I believe that is the figure -- it would require checking. But the big point to remember, I believe, is they are licensed in Great Britain but despite that, they have to me et the standards and be licen sed by the psychiatric nu rses here in Manitoba.

In attem pting to answer the qu es tions of the Honourable _Member for Lakeside, I think possi bly it might be helpful to say to him that I think it is rather difficult to obtain for him an average length of stay in the mental instituti ons in the province because the men tal institlttions in their working ca pa city have change d over the years . They are no longer domiciliary institu ti ons so much as they are active acute trea tmen t centres that operate very active out-patient and in-patient depart ments.

With the com munity mental health operations they are going out into the field to see many pe ople who are mentally disturbed in the field and to take what treatmen t is necess ary the re to try to keep the se pe ople in their homes as much as pos sible, or in foster ho mes, and also to provide approved medica tion to people who will look after them. Many of the people who come to the hospital as referrals , particularly at Brandon and Selkirk and here in Winnipeg, are pe ople who are tre ated as out-patients as much as pos sible, are not taken into the instituti on unle ss it is abs olutely necess ary.

And then, I unde rsta nd now at Selkirk they feel that with inside of about three months that they can dis charge mo st of the pe ople that come into them with mental diseases through the use of such ma tters as electro-therapy, electro-shock Page 1162 March 16th, 1964.

(Mr . Witney cont 'd) •.... therapy and insulin_ tr:eatment _and othe·r types of occupational therapy that are being utilized to a considerable extent. Perhaps the figures will be o{ illterest_to him . In 1963 the Brandon, Selkirk and Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute had under treatment as in:-_piitients a total of 4, 458. The direct adm ission tothese hospitals reached an aJl-tlme high of 1, 679, which was an increase of 146, or approxi m ateiy ten percent over 1962.

I underr;;tand over the pasf three years that there has been an in crease of approxim ately 36 perc\lnt in the admissions into the psychiatric institutes in the pro vince.

I further understand,thaf :__ as I-interpret these figt1res, since 1958 there has been a decrease of patient poi_:mlation_ in the me ntal hospitals-cif 609, -In 1963 we were able to return to the com munity a ten percent greater n)lmber than we had been able to return to the comm unity in 1962. lgo{ �.little lost on these figures at times_. -Admissions to the psychiatric institute in 1963 were 884; to the Brandon Mental Hospital were 489; and to the Selkirk Mental Hospital were 657. That gave the direct n1 1mbe -r of admissions as 1, 679 CO!npared with the total of the previous year 196 2 of 1, 533.

The total under treatm ent as at the end cif. 163 was 4, 458; and the total of the previous year was 4, 47 0. The total separations from these areas in 1963 was 1, 894 compared to 1, 717 in 1962. i trust that those figur\lswill be_ cif some value to the honourable member in try:iiig to. assess the value of the treatmenf. -- - · - -I thirlk: iti13. important to remember the treatylent_activities of the hospitals has changed over a period-ofiJ:n:)�� They are endeavouring as-muc! i as possible to not have people institution alized but to be treated as. out-patients.

Scime·pe-ople -are brought in in the night and kept in the institutions at night so that various therapies �an be 'given to them and then they can be discharged to go to their normal occupation during the daytime, o_r possibly to a foster home or to their own homes. I did recall some figures that I had the_ other day that the number of interviews that had taken place in the out-patients ' activities was 17, 236, which is up from 16, 497 in 1962.

The cost, of course, reflects not simpl y the_ m�mbers of people that are comi ng into the institute as I understand them , bufthey are also rehe.c�ingthe cost of the new aspects in psy chiatry -- for instance in_ the-commu nity of men tal -hea!fli; i:cirl.{_ with the teams that go out into the country, the type -of people' that comprise these team s; they r�.:tJ.ect'· the i,noreases in cost in social services in the various institutes whereby the patient is interviewed and the relatives of the patient are interviewed, all of the various services t_hat are possible are brought to bear towards assisting of the patient itself.

This is a new area apparently which has been developed over the past years to quite an intensive type of aCtivity in order. to treat the mental patient with as much of the resour_ces, not only of the hospital, but of-the comm unity as possible . .A..nd then, of course, in the various rehabilihition fields the increase in activity there is causing an increase in the c0st of the operation of the hospifais·. 'There have been increases ill such ma tters ·as food; increases in renovations-and various items of a sm aller nature such as that. - - --With respect to the cost per. patient, I' m sorcy I cannot give the honourable member that figure but I will obtain it for him .

MR. CAMPBELL : Mr. Chair man, I appreciate t_he fact that it's not easy to give exact answers in this area and I read from this

article that!' me ntioned a short time ago where Dr. Griffin of the Ca nadian Mental Health Association is -reported as saYing, "That an encouraging note is a recent release by the Dominion Bureau of Stat_istics which indicates disabling me ntal illness requiring long-term hospital care is slowly but steadily declining. 11 And this seem s to be the trend in general.

I realize, too, that as the patients' stays ar;e shorter that perhaps that releases the psychiatrist to have mo re tim e to spend with the patients than they had before and perhaps it will be some little time yet bef ore we can look for a decrease in the costs of the institutions com pared to the apparent decrease_ in the length of stay cif. the patient.

I recognize that those aren't necessarily com parable figuresthat can be given, but I would think with the encouraging statements that have been made by well-:qualified people that we could at least be hoping that the time is about here when instead of the costs of these institutions rising each year --: and I' ve not been compl aining about the cost ·: ..: that we cou1d eXJ)ect a levelling off per l:nps and maybe in time to come some :r:eduction. Then the other thing I wanted to ask my honotp:: able friend was the question of the much advertised drugs that are being used these times.

I have the feeling the first uses of them were rather as tranquilizers and sedatives tb.an because of 'ariy therapeutic value ; but are there March ·16th , 1964 . Page 11 63

(Mr . Campbell, cont 'd) •••••• some now that are re ally held to have some considerable restor- ative value in addition to the sedation or tranquility that they induce ? · · MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, I want to just add a few remarks before the Minister an swers. He could probably commen t on what I have to say as well, . I have here a report from the Health Service and Hospital Insurance from B.

C. and they, to o, are working apparently along the lines as the · Minister just outlined, . that they are trying to do more and mvre for the mentally ill and 'also in the matter of out-patients beiJ:�g dealt in that way, An1 further on in the report they ma ke some remarks in connection with the personnel, and I' d like to read this one particular paragraph which reads this way: "The problems of men ta l health centre primarily in the availability oftrained staff such as psychiatrists, psychologists and psychiatric social workers.

All of these highly skilled professionals are in short supply although our training programs produces enough psychiatric nurses, This shortage, we feel in British Columbia, is felt all the way across Canada as well as in the United States. The truth of the matter is that our society is not yet enc ouraging enough people to seek this field of activity for a career and yet it is perhaps the greatest single requirement in the overall area of health care. " My question would be : what are we doing in enc ouraging people to enter this ca reer?

Are we giving these people anything in the way of bursaries, or contributing toward their taking courses to become qualified to serve in this way? Perhaps we could stand some impro\' �nent in this area and I would certainly like to hear from the Minister whether we are doing anything in this way to attract people to enter this career. MR.

WITNEY: I' d like to just comm ent a bit briefly to the Honourable Member for Lake-· side and say that I regret that I can 1t see the cost levelling off for a while as yet in psychiatry because it appears that mo re people are coming to us now, It is my_ understanding that the stigma that used to be attached to it is no longer there ; i t is being treated mo re or less as a normal disease, so mo re people are coming to us than ever came before. And, of course, as they do these are people that we did not know were there .

I did have a commen t ma de to me at one tim e by one of our men that really we are at the end of bricks and mortar and now we are to concentrate on the patients thems elves with all the modern methods that we have, particu- larly in therapy. · But for the years to come, and I wouldn 't like to say how ma ny, I think we can only expect that our costs will still continue to rise because we are still experiencing shortage of staff to meet the numbers of people that keep coming in to the various institutions , The drug therapy has apparently had remarkable effects in the field of men tal diseases, In acute treatm ent of people with mental diseases drug therapy has enabled the discharge of people much more rapidly than ever before; and not only that under instruction it has enabled the patient to be kept in foster homes and in his own home by the training of people in the medi cation that is nece ssary and the providing of the dru gs , I am advised that the recent drug ther apies that have been developed over the past few years have saved hundreds of lives .and saved much needless misery among these unfortunate people.

With respect to the question of the Honourable Member for Rhine land, a great deal of in training of people is done in our mental institutions , In our Psychiatric Institute here in Winni peg, at the Brandon Hospital and at the Selkirk Hospital, at the Winnipeg hospital there is a considerable amount of in-training of people for psychiatry, not only for nurses but also for electors.

We train all the nurses -- as I mentioned to the Honourable Member fo r Lakeside, we train all the psychiatric nurses in the province at the present tim e, We also see to it that our own staff are able to take extra-curricular activities to find out mo re about the problems they are dealing with, The University is beginning to provide us with mo re trained people anclwe do have a bursary system available for the training of nurses, psychiatric nurses, and those people who want to go in for psychiatry in general. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, I have one question more that slipped my mind when I was spe aking before.

What I would like to know -- I• ve been told that we don't have enough staff at the Selkirk Mental Hospital, that they have a new ward or a new wing there and they can •t operate it because they haven •t got the staff to operate it. I wonder if the Min ister could tell me if this is true or not or is this just something that •..... MR. WITNEY: There is always difficulty in obtaining trained pe ople because of the Page 1164 March 16th, _1 964. I

(Mr. Witney cont1d) •..•. pressures that have developed in psychia try in the past few years, as I me ntioned with mo re pe ople coming to the psychiatric institute. The Psychiatric Institute at Selkirk will be in operation this year and the estimates do reflect monies for staff for those people , I was out to see the superintendent on Sunday, of the Institute at Se lkirk, and he did not in dica te to me at that time that he anti cipated undue difficulties in staffing for the new centre . MR.

PETER S: I wonder if the Mini ster would arrange a trip again for the members of the Legisla ture to go out to Selkirk Mental Hos pital. MR. WITNEY: J\ll;r, Chairman, as s.oon as the new centre is open I think it would be very advantage ous for those members to go to see it, I will be very happy to take the members to the Selkirk Institute to take a look over the new facilit ies when they are open. Pos sibly at the time of the opening, or near that particular time we might be able to round up sufficient of the members to provide a trip that will be of inte rest to them and I trust stimulating . MR.

PETERS: .•.•. guarante e return? MR. HILLHOUSE : At their own risk, Mr. Chairman. MR. WITNEY: The Honourable Member for Selkirk says they will have to go at their own risk and I will guarantee no return. MR. CHAIRMAN: ..... to say the day that we fini sh the estima te s? 2 (a)

(1) Psychia tric Servi ces: Administration. MR. NEL SON SHOEMAKER (Gladston e): Mr. Chairman, I suppose that you do intend to call all of the it ems here because 2 would take us clean through the estim ate s. ' MR. CHAIRi'v'lAN: We •re in Psych iatric Servic es, and

(1) Administration. MR. SHOEMAKER: Then you are going to call (1) and a, b and so on all the way down ? Well now, Mr. Chairman, some member asked a question in July 14, 1959 . I refer you to Hansarci No. 25 of that day -- that 's five years ago, and it says "Mr. Johnson (Gimli) answered -- and I think he was the Minister at that tim eo Mr. John son: 1 1Mr. Chairman, he says, the re was a few questions that I feel should be answered that came up in my es timates today, in the Health Estimates, and I said that I would get this inform ation: 1.

How many children are there waiting to get into the Port age la Prairie Home, the Portage Mental Hospital? Here is his answer -- "T here are 156 boys and 119 girls on our waiting list. The othe r question I think I probably gave the House the wrong impres sion co ncerning the supply for the psychia trists in the provi nce, and I would just like to bring that into perspective, that at the pres ent time the re are 27 full-time doctors in the service in our mental hospitals , 14 of whom are fully qualified as speciali sts .

We are also determined there are 40 psychiatrists altogethe r in the province, that •s including the men in our mental instituti ons . " Mr. Chairm an, I would like to put the same question to him: What are the figures today ? -- the co rresponding figures today? The same man can answer it if he lik es. It doesn•t ma tter to me. Now, J\l[r, Chairman, I don't often quote a paper from Saskatchewan, but here •s one , the Leader-Post, Regina, March 6, 1964, the heading is "T he Brain Drain ", and it goes on to say that Canada is losing all of its top brains to Unite d Sta tes.

The articl e is headed Ott awa and I suppose that th ese are Canadian figures. They may be all going from Sas katchewan, I don •t know -- but here •s the alarming thing -- out of a total -- (inte rjection) -- It 's pretty sh ort.

I could. 11 The eJ>."tent of Canada •s •brain drain ' to the United States was indicated Wednesday in statistics tabled in the Commons. 1 1 Apparently the question was asked by the Honourable David Orlikow , forme rly of Winni peg, Here 's the answer that he got, anyway: "En gineers led the exodus , The number leaving in the most recent year totalled 894, Among them were 150 electrical engineers, 103 civil enginee rs, 93 me chanical engin eers, 51 aero nauti cal engin eers . " Now there were 46 7 physicians and surgeons -- 46 7 Canadian physicians and surgeons took off in this exodus to Unite d Stat es.

I wonder , Mr. Chairman, if there is som ething that we can do ou tside of paying them a lot mo re mo ney to keep them here -- or is thi s the reason, Mr. Chair ma n, that they are all going down south, that they are making twice as much mo ney? This is quite a number . lf we educate -- I don •t know how many physicians and surgeons that graduate every year in Canada, but if there is 467 that graduate every year that go down south, it seems to me we are losing a great percentage of them.

I wonder if my honourable friend could give us the figure -- the number that graduated in Canada, say last year or the year befo re. Mr. Ch airman, while my honourable friend is hunting up the answers to a couple of those questi ons , I wonder -- I was out of the House on Friday evening in the snowstorm and I notice March .16th, 1964 . Page 1165

(Mr. Shoem aker cont•d) •••.•• on page 3 of the Speech from the . Throne , last paragraph, it state s; 11 A new Elderly and Mirm Perso n 's Housing Act will be submitt ed.1 1Has it been sub mitted yet? Mr • . C_hairm an, I suppose they will say that this should not be raised until we have rea ched the Welfare est im ates, but I find U very difficult to sepa rate these two depart ments. I know my honourable friends are finding it the s!lme way -.,-that there is a conne ction some way be.tween Health and Welfare.

You just can't separa te them : it is nearly impossi ble to talk about one without ta lking about the other. I wonder if this new Act has been submitte d to us at this time -- up to this tim e'? MR. CHAIRMAN: •..••. items. Now we're dealing only with.P sychiat;ric Services. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Education) (Gimli): Mr. Chairma n � there 's one question I' d like to assist the Minister of Health with in this regard because this. is detail which certainly he can look up in time but having been around that department for a while I think I could answe.r the Member from Neepawa quickly.

There . were these large waiting lists -:-. and there still ar_e .w aiting lists I im agine to the Portage Home -.- but I would ·point out to the Member from Neepawa that from about 158 the estima tes for the ma intenan ce of ma ny of these children in their own homes outside of institu tions has risen as he notes up to half a mi llion this year, this was around 67, 000 in 1958. This is the policv of doing what is pos sible to enc ourage parents to keep children at home rather than institufiomlize them.

These are children who are certified to be defective and in ma ny cases the parents with a little assis tance are able to keep these children at home. That also includes the St. Amant Ward which started out with about 25 chil dren in the old Hospice Tache a few years back which we thought would grow to 75 and is now handling 125 children under the age of six. Until that became an expanded program children under six were not taken -- children under si:x: were. l::Jt at home.

Iw ould like to emphasize that these growth strides, also the iiJcer:ea::;ed: t:txpen(!i:tur.es_, t]:)e. l\1in ister is prom oting with respect to the Broadway Horn e. the ip.Qre as_ed:a<:�yif:i<:J�t o{jJlg,t, i11stitutio11 in getting the higher grade retarded children 01.1t of I?ort!lg� a,nd' b�Qk: igto. tl:lec community. Significant strides have bee!l made in these are.as. The exact: figures as to how ma ny childr�n are actually on the waiting list who are not receiving some sort of support is som ething I think the Minister would have to get a special figure on. It isn •t in the table here .

The supply of doctors -- I would point out both with respect to the question from the Mem ber from Rhineland and Neepawa with respect to psychiatry, in recent years significant strides have been ma de . . It is quite true that no ma tter how ma ny incenti ves are given to psychiatrists to rem ain in the provinc e of Manitob a, or doctors in general, without the working conditi ons and the' challenge of a program and se_eing that they can achie.v;e somet hin g mo ney alone is not the an swer.

Speci_fically th:e estimates that are before you by the JYJ;i;nister have been designe d to bring. about and to keep uP with tile most mo dern techniq ues in Canada and to give to the physicians who chose this caree r·, a challen�e to stay in our province and P:X:·:;tctice. In addition to the David A. Stuart bursary program, when� any medical student who can show his need and is approved' by the dean receives substantial bursary as sistance, provided he rem ains in the Province of Manitoba -- in addition to those bursa ries to go through school on graduation, if he joins the Department of Health and :Psychiatry.

He starts off with a very good salary plus working in the hospital on a four-year diplom a course program which takes him to the hospitals mentioned by the Minister incl uding childrens work in Winni peg and at the Winnipe g Psychiatric Institute in General Ho spital and St. Bonifac e. After this well-rounded program he has tr aining seco nd to none in Canada and receives the l(ery highest degre es. In that conne ction in the past yeaf; salaries for psychiatrists who rec ognize this training have been brought into effect and the �\>-B psychiatrist in this province today is receiving a very substant ial salary.

These are the steps -- very progressive steps in the last few years that :were taken by the government to bring our position in Manitoba into line . In addition to this, the challenge to the men in these hospitals with outgoing commu nity orientated program s, using the very iatest techniques drugs and so on, are in force in this province and the centre which the l\'Iinister re ferred to at Selkirk will ]Je a fi:rst in this province as an area commu nity me ntal health cen tre, actue treatment centre, which will be opened up.

I think all these measures in those fields wre.re we have our greatest need, that is, in mental illne ss are certainly being met and that is t1Je item that is under study now. There are mo re psychiatrists today in our hospitals unde r com munity health programs I believe than ever before . The exact figures we haven't got. Page 1166 March 16th, 1964 .

(Mr. Johnson cont'd) ..•. Of course I point out to the Member from Neepawa that I think it is quite impossible for Canadian Universities and Hospitals to compete with our cousins south of the line, and that•s why we have to have both the challenge of an interesting program in addition to adequate salaries. Some of the salaries down there for our top people -- they're paid almost double. I think we .are very fortunate in that our top. people have been so dedicated to their work and are getting such tremendous results.

But I honestly felt in my time that they were apprec iative of the oppor tunity to have more freedom within their work in recent years and certainly they are cutting the mustard. I think we in Manitoba should be happy that the head of our Selkirk Hospital, Dr. Tavener was this year •s president of the Canadian Psychiatric Association. He and Dr. Johnson, the other superintendent are recognized across North America for their achievemen ts . One only has to mention Share or Selkirk Workshop which is now in effect -- these come from our Selkirk Hospital.

One only has to mention the Home Care Program carried out with the Canadian Mental Health Association in last years, and one only has to mention that desryite this tremendous volume and increase in patient care, the number of patients in Selkirk Mental Hospital which was 1, 250 for some years, is down below 1, 000 patients -- as in-patients and I think this shows th e kind of activity that has been going on in this field. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Chairman, I asked three specific questions -- I apprec iate my honourable friend's comm ents because they certainly were well put -- J:iut I did ask these three questions, you will recall: the number of psychiatrists on staff today; the number of boys and girls on the waiting list: the number of graduate physicians, surgeons, psychia trists, annually; and \vhether or not this new Elderly and In firm Fer sons Housing Act has been submitted to the House . Now I guess there are about five questions there and despite the 15 minutes discourse I am still .at a loss for an answer to these questions.

I WJ nder if we could have them. Maybe my honourable friend the Minister is still looking them up, or maybe he'd like to bring them in tomorrow. But it would be helpful if we had these questions I think because -- particularly the one on the number of physicians and surgeons and psychiatrists that graduate. If there •s half of them going down to the States then there must be something wrong, According to this

article there's 467 physicians and surgeons alone, not psychiatrists, 467 physicians and surgeons left this last year. · MR. WITNEY: I have not got the figures that the honourable member is asking for immed iately at hand, I will get them tomorrow. MR. WIDGHT: Mr. Chairman, I have a request to make of the Minister. This doesn't necess arily mean an answer now, but I have a suggestion. In the 1962 annual report of the Health Department mention was made .of the link between dental health and mental health and I would just like. to quote briefly here.

The report states that "dental health is a major public health issue and should receive top priority. It is felt that one of the reaons for our increase in mental· disease is the impact of dental disease among our people. " I wish next year that they would tenlarge a little bit because it is a very interesting point. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, before we get off this subject, I would like to tell the Legislature and through the Legislature to Dr. Tavener at Selkirk Mental Hospital and let him know how lucky we are that we do have such a dedicated man as Dr.

Tavener, because I do know that had he chose to leave us he could have left us to go south of the line at almost three times the salary that he is getting here . I want to say thank you to Dr. Tavener and his dedication to the service of the people of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN:

(1) Administration,passed;

(2) Brandon Hospital,passed:

(3) Selkirk Hospital,passed;

(4) Manitoba SJhool for Mentally Defective, passed. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I don 't think we should pass No. 4 at the present time. There •s a couple· of questions that I want to ask of the Minister, either him or the previous Minister, dealing with the question of the Manitoba School for Mentally Defective Persons. I presume that this is the proper place to have a discussion on the St. Am ant Ward at the Old St. Boniface Sanatorium. If it's not, then maybe my friend the Minister could tell me where better to discuss this question. -- (interjection) -- Pardon. MR. WITNEY: 6 (

c) is St. Amant Ward, Mr. Chairman. MR . PAULLEY: ... 6 (c) ? MR . WITNEY: Yes, Maintenance of Mental Defectives outside provincial institutions. March 16th, 196 4. Page 1167

MR. PAULLEY: All right then, we 111 just wait .until w� get down there. MR. CHAIRMAN : (4) passed, (5) passed, (6) passdd -- MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, now we 're th ere . I want to know from my honourable friend, what the Government of Manitoba proposes to do in respect of St. Am ant Hosp ital for the next _ensui ng 12-m onth period, The very first speech I ever ma de in the Legislature of Manitoba was made in respect of the old Youville.Hospital in the then Town of Trans cona:.

I. was pleased at that time to support the motion which was then proposed by the honourable member for Wolsel ey, said individual now being the Premier of the Province of Manitoba. - At that time, ma ny of ·our unfortunate young children were confined to Youville Hospital in the Town of Transcona, an old farm house that was· conve rted into a sort of a semi- hospital by ivrrs. St. Am ant of Transcona. As a re sult of aid from the Lions and Kiwanis Clubs of St.

Boniface, many of the accoutrements in the hospital were improved upon, Subse quently because of the larger enrollment the facilities were moved from Transcona to the Hospital Tache in St. Boniface and eventually due to the declining population at the Sanatorium in St. Vital, provisions were made for the accommo dation of unfortunate young people, particularly Mongoloids and the like at the Sanatorium .

I want to give the Government of Manitoba credit for the steps that they have taken up until this time, These have been appreciated very much by the parents whose children are un fortunately mentally retarded, or Mongoloid children. But today, Mr. Chairman -- and I hope the two Ministers are listeni ng -- today, Mr. Chairman, unfortun ately there are fears and apprehensions of many of the parents of children who are domiciled at the pres ent tim e in the St. Amant ward, what we used to call the old St. Boniface Sanitori um .

Recen tly, I' m informed that there has been a considera ble number of transf er s from the St. Am ant Ward to the Home for the Mentally Retarded at Portage la Prairie.

I want to say to the lVIinister that I think he should inve stigate this matter thoroughly, because it 's my opinion, and not shared just simply by mys elf, that when we •re dealing.with a men tally retarded child, or Mongoloid child, we cannot deal with them on the basis of age , Age is not a factor because we can have children who may bk in years after birth of eight, ·nine , ten and twelve, but ins ofar as their men tal capacities are concerned are only children of one or two or three, and I1m sure the Minister of Health recognizes this.

But it seems to me that there has been in the last year or two, unfortuna tely, an idea of the department and its perso nnel to le Jk more at the biJ:th certi ficate of the individual than at the mental capability of the individual. As a net resu lt, Mr. Chairman, a considera ble number of individuals have been: transferred from the St. Amant Ward in St.

Boniface to Portage la Prairie, Now I don't have to tell my honourable friend that I appreciate very m-uch the work that the depart ment is doing ins ofar as ps ychiatric treatment is concerned in the field of having community centres where those unforttmately afflicted with these diseases are kept. I think the previous Minister of Health used to tell us that the new outlook insofar as psychiatric tre atment was concerned was away from the large hospitals of confinem ent into sm aller community centres -- and I agree, and everything that I read seem s to substantiate this. But I'm distltrbed, Mr.

Chairman, with the information that has been f9rwarded to me that with these children more and more of them are being transf erred out of the St. Am ant Ward out to Portage la Prairie . Now this might not be bad, · this might not be bad if the family resided in Portage la Prairie or in the adjacent area: but unforttmately, Mr.

Chairman, the number of pe ople who are talking to me about this are located in the Greater Wim1ipeg area and have to now travel to Portage to be near their youngsters . l'm also informed that the good Sisters who are in charge -- and I believe it's the Grey Nuns who are in charge of the Sanitorium, and they're assoc iated also with St.

Boniface .Hos pital and the Old Folks Home as we gener ally call it, Hospice Tache on Tache Avenue -- have X numbers of dollars that they have accumulated in order to spend for hospital expansion, and at the presen t time they're not quite sure of the direction in which their :monies are going to go. They certainly cannot, so I am informed, be in a position where they will be able to utilize this money three ways because of the .policy, I take it, of having to have the necessa ry 20 percent here , there or there for expansion.

It seem s to me that the situation, or at least so I am informed, that the situation is that there is no further expansion contemplated for St. Am ant Ward in the St. Boniface Sanitori um . I want to ask my honourable friend is this the case, because Page 1168 March - 16th, 1964. I !

{Mr. Paulley cont 'd) ...... a mo ment ago the Member for Gladstone resurrected an old documen t back to 1959 when he was talking about waiting lists for children for admittance t9 some of these facilities for care, and I would suggest that the situation is still much about the same , because while we have made some progre ss in certain areas -- and this was what I was me aning when I was speaking this afternoon, Mr.

Chairman, on the question of priorities with the taxpayers ' dollar. -- we haven 't made too much advancement, and despite what my honourable friend and now Minister of Educa tion talks about the firsts of Manitoba and this progress ive province, I still think that I could convince my honour able friend otherwise privately if I can •t convin ce him in this Ass embly. But notwithstanding this, Mr.

Cha irman, I want to say to my friends opposite, and I' m referring now to the two Ministers just kitty-corner across the Asse mbly froni me, that there are genuine fears and apprehen sions, not only of the people whose chil dren are in the St. Ama nt Ward today, worrying of the possibility of their transfer out to Portage la Prairie -- and I1 m sure my friends will agree that even though it's only 52 miles away, it1s not quite as simple as going down on a Sunday afternoon or an evening to spend with the children in the location in my constituency of Radisson at the St.

Bonif ace Sanitorium -- that there are fears and apprehensi ons , Mr. Chairman, of the present, and it seems to me an accelera ting number of transfers on the basis of age and size from St. Amant Ward out to Portage la Prairie . I have not heard and they have not heard of any plans of the government now for expansion of the facilities in the St. Amant Ward. And when I' m speaking of the St. Am ant Ward, Mr.

Chairm an, I want to pay a tribute once again to the Knights of Columbus who annually hold a tea, at which I' m hono ured to pour tea as well as the former Minister of He alth -- we poured tea on one or two occasio ns together - that the Knights of Colum bus use their efforts there to get together a few extra dollars, and I might say this is a well -patronized tea and I respect fully suggest to the Members of this Legis lature that if they see an adve rtisem ent in the paper that the tea is being held -- and it •s us ually held in the early spring -- bring around their ten or fifteen bucks.

It will be welcomed by the Kni ghts of Columbus but mo re particularly the Auxiliary to the St. Am ant Ward -- so I invite them right now and I'm not a Knight of Columb us. But nonethel ess, Mr. Chairman, there are these fears and apprehensions at the pres ent time with the parents of the children in the hospital at the presen t tim e. I1 m sure that the Minister knows that there still is a large waiting list from parents who ;vould like to have their children in the accomm odation at the St.

Amant and I would like to hear from the Minister a full detailed outlined program that the department has in respect of these unforhmate children. Now having said this I re alize , and I don't want the Minister -- and I don•t think he will, Mr. Chairm an -- I don't want the Minister standing up and ,saying to me, 11 Well don't you agree, doesn't the member agree that the proper place for these children is where they can have the loving care at home with their paren ts ? 11 This has been said in this House once before . !w ould agree with this, Mr.

Chairm an, if this was an only child, but certa inly where there are a number of normal children in a household and one who is unfortunately in the category of those children for whom I hope that I•m spea king, that this is not pos sible. So I ask my honourable friend the present Minister of He alth: are the pe ople who are talking to me abotJt the fears that they have of transfer of their children to Portage la Prairie justified?

Is the Department of Health taking into considera tion, not the factor of age but of men tality, and what plans has this forward-looking governmen t got for future expansio n for an ever-ex panding population of children who are mentally defective and our Mongoloid children in the Province of Manitoba? I think these are vital questions and I' m sure that the Minister of Health appreciates this and should be prepared, or is prepared to answer this. And I sincerel y trust and hope, Mr.

Chairman, that when the Hcm ourable the Minister of Hea lth rises to answer these points he 111 say, "Well I can assure the Honoura ble Leader of the lqew Democr atic Pa rty that this ever -considerate, every-pr ogressive governmen t has got all the factors under consider ation and inde ed not only unde r considera tion but I can promise my honourable friend that new excavations, if necessa ry, will be made this summe r to assu re the people of these unfo rtunate children that they don't have to go out of Winni peg and that our accommod ation will be expanded for the waiting list which we have at the presen t tim e. 11 This is the answe r, Mr.

Chairma n, I want from my hono urable friend. I now ask him what his answer actually will be . MR. WITNEY: Mr. Chairman, the item under discussion I think is too important to ma ke March 16th, 1964. Page 11 69

(!vir. Witney cont'd) .•... any political type of statem ent.at all, These children are .... MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, this was not a political type if he was referring to the rem arks that I was ma king because they were from the heart having followed this whole ma tter from the days when I was just a we ll little ordinary citizen back in the now City of Transcona. / MR. WITNEY: I, of course, had represen tations about the St. Amant Ward too, even before I became tbe Minister of Mines and Natural Resour ces, for I know people who have a child in the St. Am ant Ward.

I can only say with respect to that at the present time that this is tied up with the negotiations that are going on at the pres ent time wi th the Sisters in connec tion with the whole of the St. Boniface complex, which I men tioned the other night during the general debate on the Minister's salary, and that there has been a whole series of negotiations being conducted over the past year or s o with the Sisters . It is my understanding that they will be here sometime before the end of March to come to some decisio ns with the department about the whole of the compl ex of St. Boniface.

I regret that that is about as far as I can go at the present time in relation to the St. Am ant Ward. During the past year the numbers of children there did increase slightly to 135 ; that in the estirmtes that we are discus sing at the present time provision is being ma de for increased am ounts of mo ney to go to the St. Amant Ward, mainly in increase per diem costs, but also for the provision of a pediatrican service to the St. Am ant Ward .. At 0ne time apparently it was done as a free service by the pediatricians, ma inly I believe from-the St.

Boniface Hospital, but the numbers of children and the work load has come to the point now where we have to provide for some more adequate means. I mig ht say with respect to Portage that with the cottage system that will be placed into operation in this co ming year, that the cottage system will be utilizing areas where there will · be no mo re than about 30 of these peo ple and we will be able to provide for a greater degree of the type of socialization that is being done in the St.

Amant Ward at the present time; and also in providing rehabilitation activities that will ma ke life a.bit more com fortable for these par ticular people. But I think the direct answer to the honourable member's question with respect to St. Am ant Ward is that I cannot go any further than to say the negotiations with the Sisters of St. Boniface have been going on and when they come, sometime near the end of March or later, I trust we will be able to conclude these negotiations and to know where we are going. MR.

PAULLEY: !vir, Chairman, I appreciate very much tbe rem arks of the Honourable the Minister but I do want to say this, and as I said when I was raising the question, and he has reiterated it re ally, when h� said that tbe Sisters concerned, or the Order concerned have mo re than one iron in the fire, so as to speak, I believe it is the same institution that looks after the Hospice Tache, the St. Boniface Hospital, and also the St. Am ant Ward.

I think I said that they I had somewhere in the ne ighborhood of 300, 000 -- I don't know if the figure is accu rate or not -- but anyway they have X numbers of dollars ! hat they have to spend three different ways . The Minister tells me that he is going to meet with them shortly and have a discussio n with them as to ma tching grants and this, that and the other, and a decision will have to be ma de as to what direction the expenditure is going· to be ma de in.

Now I ask my honourable friend the Minister of Health, . supposing it is decided that the direction is going to be the addition of addi tional hom es to St, Boniface Hospital. Supposing the direction that is going to be decided on is in respect of the Hospice Tache for the elderly citizens on Tache, Street. What then? What then, I ask, !vir. Chairman , will be the situation in regards to the children not only at the pres ent time in the St. Amant Ward, but of the children who are now on the waiting list? I can a)preciate, !vir.

Chairman, that I ma y be asking some embarrassi ng questions at the present time because of the fact that thenegotiatim s haven 't been conducted with the Reverend Sisters . But then again, does this not come doWI). to the basic philosophy of expansion of hospitals in general in the whole area of hospitalization where before anything is done , a ce rtain proportion of the mo nies have to be raised by contributions of one sort or another. I me ntioned a mo me nt ago, Mr. Chairman, that the very first speech that I made in tl!is HJuse dealt with the resolution of the First Minister and Youville Hospital. He. was d

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-44
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 44.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4bf01ad54fc7482f591b4ca16b08561be96a94a7

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).