Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT WEDNESDAY, JUNE 2, 1976 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER Number 76

June 2, 1976 Tape 3105 PK - 1 The House met at 3:00 P .M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I could say1 11 •t ease everyboe1y. "Settle down! " There are a couple of statement,, Sir, I want : to first of all inform the House of the latest on Newfoundland's goodwill Ambassador abroad,the Norma and Gladys SOME HON. MEMBERS : ---- Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: ---·-- I have a report which I will go through very quickly, a brief report. The vessel arrived in St.

Malo, France May 14 and left on the 16th. Among the functions that were sponsored,the press conferences, dinners and all of that - the important thing, Mr. Speaker, of May 16 a television crew boarded the vessel for a journey to Amsterdam. The result was a thirty minute film concerning the Law of the Sea featuring the Norma and Gladys. This film was shown on Dutch televis4on May 25. A copy of this film is being forwarded to the Department of Tourism. Something more than 4,000 visitors during the two day visit to St. Malo. Amsterdam it arrived on May 20, it departed May 23.

And the same with regard to press conferences and luncheons, and the rest by the dignitaries. News coverage was exceptional in Holland 1 television, radio and newspapers. A German television photographer joined the vessel in Amsterdam for a voyage to Hamburg. Approximately 5,000 people visited the vessel in Amsterdam. SOME RON. :MEMBERS: Hear, hear! It arrived in Hamburg on May 25, and departed May 30. And the usual receptions and press conferences were held there.

May 29 a film taken by a German photographer who boarded the vessel ~n Amsterdam shown on national German television,approximately eight minutes,exclusive Norma and Gladys, an exceptionally fine film, a copy being forwarded to the Department of Tourism. News 9543

June 2, 1976 Tape 3105 PK - 2 coverage was excellent in Hamburg, television, radio and newspapers. And, Mr. Speaker, I think this is the important thing 1 the people who were visitin~ the vessel increased from port to port. Somewhere bet\~een 10,000 to 12,000 people visited the vessel in Hamburg. Hear, hear! MR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, I have a statement - AN RON. ME}1BER: Fabulous! ---·------ ~R._HICKEY: - to make on the black bear hunting season - MR._~UNDRIGAN~ You sit down first and let them respond to your first statement. Do you want to respond to that? - for the benefit of my friend from Eagle River (Hr.

Strachan) especially people in Labrador. MR. Sll'jM()NS: W<!nt to let us respond to the first one first? AN HON. tmMBER: Theywant to respond to the first one. MR. ~_ICKEY: Oh l I see. I did not think that anybody ~·ould want to respond to that. !'fR -~-SPEAKER~ The hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR ._R.!_ ~IMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I do not think we ought to let this opportunity pass without responding to the good news that the minister brings us about the continuing saga of the Norma and Gladys and "Tom". It is ~ood that the No~~ap~Gladys at least is stiJl above water.

And the minister is in fine form today, and it is good to see him very much above water.. The news is good 1 the news that the Norma and Gladys continues to spread goodwill on behalf of the country and the Province I would think. One question comes to mind, and it really rises out of my own lack of knowledge of the details of the undertaking, and the minister is certainly familiar with it I am sure.

What kind - apart from the obvious identity of the boat with Newfoundland in the minds of the people who visit - what kind of promotional endeavour is being done from a tourist standpoint, if any~ Is there any direct effort being made to attract the German, the Dutch, the French tourist who think about visiting here,or is that not part of the

June 2, 1976 Tape 3105 PK - 3 Mr. 21_mmons : assignment? Would the minister care to respond to that? Otherwise I would like on beh*lf of my colleagues to thank him for his updating us from time to time, and I share the enthusiasm which he has exhibited again today. I think it is a tremendous idea. We have had comments about some of the details, but the overall idea of having a goodwill ambassador abraard, one which so represents our marine tradition. I have always felt it a good idea, and I am delighted to hear it is meeting with such a tremendous response in the various ports that he has mentioned,st.

Malo, and Hamburg and the others today. ~._SPEAKER:_ MR. HICKEY: The hon. Minister of Tourism. Mr. Speaker, may I just respond briefly to the comment by the bon. gentleman. There is little or no promotion from a tourism point of view done in Europe, certainly not by way of expenditures of funds from this Province.

Of course, wherever the vessel goes the Federal Department of External Affairs, the Federal Government issues brochures of the vessel,which is almost total Newfoundland with the exception of the issue of the 200 mile limit in the Law of the Sea, But there is no doubt about the effects and the educating of the people,wherever the vessel goes 1 with regards to this Province.

Pins of the Province are issued, and that is where we get our count of the people who visit; posters on the vessel, but apart from that that is about it, with the exception of luncheons which are provided for by the External Affairs Department, and even then those are to specific groups and dignitaries and that kind of thing.

The main promotion from a tourism point of view that we will make will be in Great Britain when the vessel arrives there-before she leaves for the crossing to come back to Newfoundland, And, of course, prior to going to Europe we did extensive promotion from a tourism point of view along the Eastern Seaboard, New York and Boston. MR. ROBERTS: What about the museum, "Tom"? 95-'t5

June 2, 1976 Tape 3105 PK - 4 MR. HICKEY: Well naturally, Kr. Speaker•, the fact that the vessel is in itself a floating museum is an obvious p~omotion of Newfoundland. But, of course, eve·cything about the vessel is Newfoundland, and from th~~ot point of view it is not costin~ us. But what I was referring to especially in response to the han. gentleman was special efforts costing the Provinc .e and so on. And my answer to that is really none. MR.~SIMMONS: The minister mentioned brochures made available. 9S46

June 2, 1976 Tape 3106 IB-1 Mll. SIMMONS: ,could the members of the House see copies of these,or have copies just to get an idea of what is being handed out abroad'l MR. S~ALLWOOD: Did the minister say she is going to put into some Irish port on the way back? AN HON. MEMBER: Not the Republic I will wager. MR. HICKEY: No, Mr. Speaker. She crosses to London, Bristol and probably one other port in England,but not to Ireland. ~m. SMALLWOOD: Yes,but she has got to come back across theAtlantic. Why not put into Waterford or some seaport. ~- HICKEY: We wish to get her hack, ~r. Speaker. The plan is to - f'R.

S~IALLWOOD: Yes but not that anxious. Is it too late to change it? }:11. HICKEY: No, I suppose not. ~. SMALLWOOD: Well,put her into Ireland for one port. MF. HICKEY: That is a matter that certainly can be considered, Mr. Speaker. With regards to the question posed by my bon. friend, certainly I w1ll ma~e a brochure availahle. I do not have a great supply of them,but I am sure I can come up with half a dozen. They were put out hy the federal government and I will be glad to make them available. MR. PECKFORD: Another statement. }~. SPEAKE~: The hon. Minister of Tourism. ~- HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, with regards to the black bear or the black bears. When I informed this House of the 1976 big game licenstng system I mane no reference to the black bear hunting season. At this ttme, 1-'r. Speaker, I wish to inform the Rouse that there will be no black hear hunting on the Island part of the Province this year. Dur1ng the next several months the black bear huntin~ data of the last several seasons will be reviewed and a new policy will be developed ~vith respect to the hunt1.ng of this species. In recent years - and especially in 1974-1975 - the sale of black bear licenses increased significantly.

At the same time,however,the kill of black 9547

June 2, 1976 Tape 3106 IB-2 MR. HICKEY:_ bears remained virtually constant. The reported kill has been in the vicinity of thirty antmals annually white the estimated harvest, making allowance for non-residents,had not exceeded 100 animals. In 1974-1975 the number of black bear hunting licenses sold exceeded 4,000. In 1966 just more than 500 black bear hunting licenses were sold and the reported kill was thirty-five animals. That year the adjusted kill figure,allo~ring for non-residents,was sixty animals. This data suggests, ¥r.

Speaker, that black bear hunting licenses are not being purchased for black bear hunting. Other bi~ game hunters allege - and they may be correct - that individuals purchase black bear licenses so that they can carry fire arms to help their hunting partners who have moose or caribou hunting licenses. I might ad~ here that moose and caribou harvest, population data 1do not show evidence of over harvesting. But I must acknowledge that this use of the black bear hunting license might contribute to over-harvest if it is permitted to continue. As I have indicated above, ~r.

Speaker, the black bear hunting season will be thoroughly assessed during the next several months. I anticipate there will be a black bear hunting season again f.n 1977) but under totally new rules. I also want to inform the House at this time that there will be a black bear hunting season this year in Labrador. The Labrador black bear hunting season will be similar to those of 1975. Resi.dents of Labrador take black bear annually for meat and for the hide,as well as for recreation purposes.

The black bear hunting season in Labrador is as follows: In the Northern zone, essentially the Northern coastal areas, the open season will be June 7 to October 30. The Eastern zone, essentially the Southern coastal area, South of Bami l ton ·Inlet, the open season will be June 7 to June 30 and September 6 to October 30. The Central zone, essentially the area surrounding Goose Bay-Happy Valley and Northwest River,open season will be June 9 to June 30 and September 6 to October 30.

In the Western zone, the area from Churchill Falls west to Labrador City but excluding the area around Ashuanipi and Shabogamo Lakes, June 7 9548

June 2, 1976 Tape 3106 IB-3 MR. HIC!q':Y: to June 30 and September 6 to October 30. ~- • S~ALLWOOD: What was that the last word? ~. HICKEY: Shabogamo. That is close to Outer Cove. Mr. Speaker, I hope that this clears up any fear of residents of Labrador who attach some significance to the black bear hunting in the Province, I hope that those fears are put at rest today. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. }IR. STRACHAN: }fr.

Speaker, on behalf ef the people of Labrador and the coastal people of the district I represent~and myself included since every year jn the Spring I usually obtain black bear for meat, we welcome the news. I have explained before that Labrador coastal people especially obtain black bear meat at a time of the year when they cannot obtajn other types of meat, especially the Spring of the year. I notice the season is open fro~ June 7 to October 30. I should inclicate that generally on the Labrador coast people only hunt the black bear at the end of ~ay, beginning of June.

The latest one would hunt black bear on the coast for meat purposes would be June 30 or the first week in July and no one hunts black bear again until well jnto September or October. The reason why the July and August period the black bear is not hunted is because, first of all, as they say there~the animal is too ugly to kill. The hide is too poor. It has got no value at all.

And secondly, when the black bear leaves the ice and starts to feed on the beaches and starts to feed on sculpins and caplin and so on, the meat then becomes very strongly fishy and he loses the earlier meat taste he has in the Sprine of the year. In the Fall of the year he goes on 'berries and when he is on berries the meat is very sweet. But during that big block durin~ the Summer he is not hunted. So maybe possibly in future one may consider extending the season earlier and closing it during the Summer because nobody kills them anyway~and open it again in the Fall. 9549

June 2, 1976 Tape 3106 IB-4 Jo4R. STRACHAN : The other point I would like to make is that-we did bring this up a couple of weeks ago and, as I understand, there was some confusion about the black bear hunting.-many families. have already left for outside places on the Labrador coast, places in which they have no radio or no news. Many families have left on the last ice. The last ice in around Hopedale is now very bad. Davis Inlet and Nain is getting that way.

So many families are at the outside places where they will kill black bear and, as is often the case, they may start to hi~e the skins or destroy the skins, eat the 111eat and destroy the skJ.ns and not bring them back in because they do not know and, as far as they understood there was a ban on killing black bear. The black bear skin reaches a value of $100 to $120 to $150 a skin. So in essence they are throwing away a fair monetary value to especially someone who is living off the land or hunting off the land.

So possibly maybe in the future we should think of maybe an earlier tf.me in considering these kinds of things so that people will know before they leave outside the village and outside the communications, before they leave what is going to occur as far as hunting black bear is concerned. I would also just like - MR. SMALLWOOD: Besides the black bear and besides the polar bear are there any other bears down there? ~. · STRACHAN: No; the only bears are black bear and polar bear. The white bear or polar bear is banned totally from being killed.

Occasionally a hunter does get one, only in a case where a polar bear may come at his boat which quite often happens during the ice flow season. Rut very, verv occasionally, very rarelv and generally they report it to the RCMP when it does occur. I have only kno~m of two cases since 1971. As far as any other bear is concerned, the only other bear is a barren land bear some of which move over from the Hudson Bay area into the barren lands off Quebec. But it certainly does not bother us. It is not a bear we use commercially. 9550

J une 2, 1976 Tape 3106 Ill-S ~IR . STRACHAN: I would like to indicate one other point that people will be - and 1 can tell you now - wil l be bre aking the law. They will be killing geese and ducks . They will be killing other food stuffs for Which they ~ay be arrested and they will be doing it if they are living in outs i de places. And the y are now concerned greatly as they have started di~~in~ boles and bidin2 the bones now whereaA hefnr~ th•v did not care very much. So 't think the whole aspect of the Wildlife Act-and the black bear fs only one aspect of it - needs to be revised and reviewed.

Again I would like to stress to the minister that I would think a committee maybe should be set up1 or his department set up a committee to discuss the Act as it applies to areas like that, where people still do live off the land. I myself, if there were ,.. .~

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3107 Page 1 - mw Mr. Strachan. restrictions against myself for killing black bear, I would accept that quite happily. I have sufficient money that I can buy meat, but many other families do not. And I make differentiation here between a sports hunter, which I would be, even though I do do it for meat as well, but I am essentially a sports hunter, and people who kill animals for meat, because they need it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, if I can just provide some information for my han, friend and suggest that I would be more than happy to get together with him to discuss it further. I certainly agree with him that there is a need for more appropriate applicatinn, I suppose, of the Wild Life Act to certain Labrador residents. And I want to say to him that I am more than willing to sit down with him to discuss those areas. I want to suggest to him, too, and first of all to advise him that there is an advisory board established. I do not believe it is functioning. I do not believe it has met yet.

But at least that part of it has been attended to. And maybe he would like to get together with me, and we can disc~ss the issue as to when it should meet or might meet, and present before it, or have the people make representation to the board so that they indeed can let us know exactly what they would like to see happen in Labrador. I certainly agree with him that there is a problem with regards to understanding the Wild Life Act: and I have told him, I believe earlier ~ that I have taken steps, and I have informed my staff that I want the Wildlife Act made available.

I want it also made available in their language appropriate to the areas of Labrador so that indeed they will understand. Because I agree that if there is a language barrier then certainly there is a strong case against punishing people for breaking the law that thev indeed do not understand. 95~2

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3107 Page 2 - mw PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR.. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to p~esent a petition signed by thirty-seven residents of the community of Purbeck'• Cove in my district. I would think, Sir, or I am almost sure,thst thirty-seven residents is every man and woman in the community of Purbeck's Cove. It is a very small community, one of the smallest in the district.

And the prayer of the petition, Sir, is that something be done within the very near future to upgrade the mile and one-half of road between Westport and Purbeck's Cove. Now they are not asking for a major reconstruction job or a major paving job or anything of that nature. It is a very short piece of road, but, Sir, it is a very treacherous piece. It runs along the hillside. I do not know if any members have been over there or not. It runs totally along the side of a hill.

It is cut into the side of a hill and consequently with the drainage, the natural drainage from the hill and so on the road, every Spring washes out and it is, therefore, in very poor driving conditions, and in fact it is very hazardous. A small school bus takes the children over that road into Westport every day, and, of course, the rest of the people have to use it also. It is not much money we are talking about. It is not a major job. It is just some repair work be done to ensure that that road is put in a safe and proper driving condition during this Summer. So, Sir, I present the petition on their behalf.

I ask that it be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMONS: The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espeir. Mr. Speaker, I would like just to say a word of support to the petition presented by my friend and colleague from Baie Verte -White Bay ~r. Rideout). The community of Purbeck's Cove is o~e that I am quite familiar with, it having been in my school 9553

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3107 Page 3 - mw Mr. Simmons. district during my period in the Green Bay school district. Purbeck's Cove is a small community. As the ••ber said~ thirty-seven signatures would represent just about every adult person in . the community. The community is just less than two miles from Westport, but it is connected to Westport by a very treacherous road, particulatly during run-off periods, and where you have a run-off during the day and some cooling off at night you can have a pretty hazardous condition. This time of the year I would imagine it is pretty soft, pretty mucky.

As the member has mentioned the younger element in the communitv depend on the road for school bus transportation on a daily basis. All the residents depend on the road to get to Westport for shopping reasons, and to Baie Verte for health and business reasons generally. Some of them commute indeed to Baie Verte for job reasons. So it is a vital road link. It is a road that to my knowledge nothing has been done about in a number of years. And the cost would certainly be minimal, but the need is fairly urgent, and I have much pleasure in giving support to the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

MR , SPEAKER: The han. Minister without Portfolio. MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition from approximately 250 people who are employees in my constituency of Kilbride, who are employees of the Waterford Hospital. And I will read the prayer of the petition, Mr. Speaker, because it is verv short.

And it says, "We the undersigned request that during the sitting of the House of Assembly that the members of the said Rouse enact or amend legislation to provide those employees of NAPE Unit 6901, Waterford Hospital, who have ~ontinuous patient contact,with a pension plan comparable to that of the warders at Her Majesty's Penitentiary. We feel that we are working under great risk to our physical and mental health just as the warders are,if not more so in our case." Then the signatures follow.

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3017 Page 4 - mw MR. WELLS: This petition, Mr. Speaker, arises out of a matter of concern which has been a matter of concern in the Waterford Hospital among those employees who have to deal directly with mentally ill patients. And this has been on the go in the sanse of concern and asking for extra pay, etc. for that reason for some time. Now it is a subject that generates strong feelings. There is a certain school of thought that feels that this sort of work does not justify increased pay or pensions or anything else.

But on the other hand,those who ~ave experience of this tvpe of work point out - and I think, Mr. Speaker,point out with considerable cla~ity - that it does impose a strain. It is not a physical strain all the time. Occasionally it can be very physical, but usually it is a mental strain or an emotional strain which, I think, we would have to agree exists there to a much greater extent than if you were working in a shop or an office or certainly in Confederation Building or something like that.

So there is no question~ Caring for sick people is onerous at the best of times, and caring for mentally ill people does impose certain strains and stresses which, as I say, are not common in most occupations or walks of life. So, Mr. Speaker, I have explained to a representative of NAPE Unit 6901 to whom I spoke earlier this afternoon that I would present this petition.

I explained to the representative also, and I will be seeing them later, explained that things like alteratioas to the Pensions Act have got to be discussed at tbe Treasury Board level and the Department of Finance level, and government has to take advice on such matters from actuaries and people who are involved in financial advice on pensions, because pensions in the Civil Service, and in related public enterprises such as hospitals, there is a lot of meshing that has to be done, and to coasider this or do anything with it government would have to consider and take advice on the warders of the penitentiary and other related classifications within the public service generally.

It is not something that can be done 9555

JWle 2, 1976 Iape no. 1017 Page 5 - mw MR. WELLS. in a matter of four or five days or even two or three weeks. But it something that we recognize, Mr. Speaker, is deserving a very careful consideration, I certainly give my assurance to these constituents who have presented this petition that I will immediately ask t.he House to refer the petition to the Department of Finance and to the Treasury Board for study and advice,and that their advice may in turn be given to the government, and that we can accept representations from the employees themselves or anybody representing them and that in due course , Mr.

Speaker, a satisfactory result be achieved. So I have pleasure in bringing this petition to the !:louse, Mr. Speaker, and placing it on the table and asking that it be referred to che appropriate department. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Rear , hear: 9556

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3108 NK- I MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Oppos:f.tion. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr. Speaker, let me say a word or two in support of the petition which the ae~er for Kilbride just presented to the House. I think the reqaest of the petitioners is one which should be studied and I agree with the procedure suggested by the hon. gentleman, the member for Kilbride District (Mr. Wells). The question is not a new one.

I would hazard the guess that it has been on the go aow for ten or fifteen years really in one form or another and as I understood what the minister said, not having ~he chance,of course,of seeing the petition as yet. the concern of these attendants and staff members at the hospital is that they are in contact-and I do not like using that noun as a verb,but for this purpose let us do it- they are in contact with the patients at the hospital who in many cases are dangereus,and that is one of the reasons why these particular patients are confined to the Waterford HospitahAnd some of the patients at the Waterford Hospital of course are there not under operation of the Mental Health Act, an Actt.that is a medical act and that provides that when people require medical treatment they either seek it voluntarily or they can be made to seek it by the procedure set out in that Act 1but some of them are there either before trial, remanded for a period of time,or after a trial and held there at the Lieutenant-Governor's pleasure. .You know, there is a legal process and there are reviews on it. but these people are there, some of them for quite long periods, some of them,I would venture to say,will be there for the rest of thetr aatural lives, no fault of their own but they just cannot be allowed to circulate freely in society again.

And the attendants at the hospital, the nursing assistants are in constant daily communication with these people because they work with them every day looking after them and doing their job in the hospital. So the matter has often come up. When I was Minister 9557

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3108 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: of Health the matter was reviewed. I remember meeting a number of delegations and representations were made, and the attendenta at the hospital feel, I think with a considerable degree of reason, that they are exposed in many ways to duty that is no less hazardous than that to which our policemen are exposed or our firemen are exposed, and in fact it has often been said to me by representatives of these particular employees that their duties are more hazardous than the average duty of a policeman.

I remember once a man saying with some heat that he would rather be walking up and down Water Street or Duckworth Street passing out tickets than he would be in what was then the old ,Justice {iard, the old 3C Ward in on the back of what was then known as the Hospital for Mental and Nervous Diseases 1 where you had ten or fifteen men, some of whom had committed, I do not know if they committed murder, that is a legal definition, but had killed, had taken life, and lacked the degree of mental ability to he able to control themselves and quite conceivably could take life again.

These men of course are under the regular Civil Service Pension Plan, just like the secretaries in this building or the employees of other government services,while the police and the firemen have a different pension plan, a recognition of their services, of the different types of activity which they do in their work • . \nd the police and firemen's pension scheme is much more generous, It allows a much earlier retirement and it provides different and more generous benefits because of the peculiar and particular nature of their work. These attendants at the Mental.

Hospital or the Waterford Hospital feel that they deserve similar treatment. Obviously it is a matter that should be studied carefully because there are precenents and there are many ramifications that must be looked into and I would think the Minister of Finance is extremely reluctant to have the pension plan opened, the whole question of pensions which I believe NAPE wished to make a matter of negotiations and which at present is not a negotiable matter, is a matter which I am sure the Minister of Finance and his officials

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3108 MR. ROBERTS: and the Treasury Beard staff feel is a very attractive green field but sown with mines and great danger to those who do not walk warily across that field. NM- 3 But I think these men have a case. I think the minister is doing the right thing to refer the .. tter to the appropriate members of the Public Service to ask them to study it and to advise the Cabinet. I hope a way can be found around it. It has gone on for many years now. The need is there.

The need if anything is greater than ever because we now have much better legislation in the me•tal health field, much more advanced, and I believe the need must be met. So I hope this petition will see the granting of that need. I hope the process which was begun here today will lead to the recognition of the need and the granting of it. We support the petition, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Bay of Islands. MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to add my support to this petition.

A lot has already been said on it by the House Leader and the Leader of the Opposition but the words that strike me in the petition, Mr. Speaker, are the words, "We feel that we are working under great risk to our physical and mental health." Now if anybody saw the movie, "Oile Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest," which I happened to see, I think they would certainly give their full support to this petition and for this and for other reasons I lend my full support to this petition. MR. ROBERTS: Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE FUL~ BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPF~R: The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answers to question nos. 424 and 425, asked by the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), that were first asked to- they were asked to the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications but they did not

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3108 NM- 4 MR. PECKFORD: come under his department so they were sent to me for reply•And then question no. 476, asked by the hon. member for Port de Grave. Qaestion 424 concerned the definition of a protected road, question 425 asked how many protected roads there were in the Province and what was the total mileage. The former answer is 26 and the latter is 1,373. And the question asked by the hon. member for Port de Grave (Mr.

Dawe),which might be of interest to all hon. members of the House, had to do with the statement showing the grand total capital sum expended on the Shea Heights Municipal and Housing project, number of miles of new streets built, number of miles of paving done, the number of units provided with water and sewerage facilities and the sources of the said capital.

And the answer was the total amount spent on Shea Heights -- was $7,897,659 for the installation of municipal services, the construction and paving of approximately five miles of streets and providing water and sewer facilities within three feet of approximately 250 homes and other related expenses. In addition sixty-eight subsidized rental housing units were constructed at a cost of $1,188,000 - MR. SMALLWOOD: Is that over the seven point something? MR. PECKFORD: Yes. Of this amount the provincial share was $444,000 of the $1.7 million and the federal was the balallce which was $1.3 million.

Of course the ongoing subsidized rental costs are shared also fifty-fifty with the federal government and the provincial government • So t t is an ongoing opera tiona! cost on the subsidization of the rents. So I am pleased to table the answers to these questions, Mr. Speaker. MR. SMALLWOOD: It brings it up to around $9 million,does it not? ,. It seems to be a lot of value for $9 million. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. 95GO

June 2, 1976 Tape No . 3108 NM- 5 MR. W. CAR'l'ER: Mr. Speaker • I hliVe the honour to tab.le answers to questions no. 610, asked by the hon. member .for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), 621 by the member fo·r Fogo (Captain Winsor), again question no. 7§4 on the Order Paper in the name of the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). MR. SPXAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and. Communiciations. MR. HORGAN: Mr. Speake .r, I wish to answer question 442, as placed on the Order Paper by the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood).

The question was with reference to the work and plans of this government to build aircraft land .ing strips around the Province and our intentions for the future in this regard. The situation is, Mr. Speaker, that this year there will be a new airstrip constructed at Cartwright and that is a contract now let - $440,000-and for the first tt.e we were successful this year in obtaining financial input from the federal government, under ,.

June 2, 1976 Mr. Morgan. Tape no. 3109 Page 1 - mw a programme that assists in the construction of airstrips in remote parts of our countrv, mainly in the Northern regions. So, therefore, we have now requested assistance for the construction of an airstrip at Makkovik, at Mary's Harbour and Nain. So in my recent negotiations with the hon. Otto Lang in Ottawa, he indicated that there is a strong possibility that additional funds will be forthcoming for these strips in Labrador.

This leads us to go on for additional assistance if at all possible to obtain same, so ~e are now requesting to obtain assistance for the construction of an airstrip at Burgee, in the han, gentleman's district. That is a priority with the department at this time. So hopefully if the federal government will co-operate financially, we will carry on with the programme we have now commenced. MR. SMALLWOOD: Did not the federal government help at Deer Lake and St. Anthony, at least, and maybe others? Did they not? MR. MORGAN: No. MR. SMALLWOOD: They did at Deer Lake. And they did at St. Anthony. MR.

MORGAN: For the hon. gentleman's information the federal government has been participating financially in the construction of airstrips in other provinces but not Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. SMALLWOOD: Deer Lake and St. Anthony. at least two, at least. I believe they did Winterland. MR. MORGAN: No, not Winterland. That was strictly ours. Bonavista, St. Alban's, all ours. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Tourism. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer a question that was asked by my friend, the member for Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) some days ago with regards to advertising of the Province, and with reference to the ommision of the word ' Labrador'. I want to confirm for him what I advised him that day that I felt sure it was an error, and I can now confirm that it was. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: 9562

June 2, 19i6 Tape no. 3109 Page 2 - mw MR. HICKEY: I have instructed my staff to contact the agency and to ensure that it does not happen again. MR. ROBERTS: _!1R. RICJmY: What is the agency? Is it McConnell? McConnell. I want to assure my hon. friend further, Mr. Speaker, that not only are we strong in the position of promoting or using the word 'Labrador' in promotion, but indeed we promote Labrador specifically in terms of certain areas such as the film Ocean Heritagewith regards to the Torngat Mountains, the Moravian Missions, with regards to the film on architecture, and in many other areas, Those films, Mr.

Speaker, are being circulated through the United States. And our efforts have been accelerated and will continue to accelerate with regards to promoting labrador in future, because we do believ.e, and certainly agree,that it has a fantastic potential. And as facilities become available, we will certainly be increasing our efforts in terms of promotion, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister without Portfolio. MR: WELLS: Mr. Speaker, earlier in the week I undertook for the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) - it was in response to a question about two stadiums, one the stadium at Whitbourne, and the other at Placentia.

MR. CALLAN: Was that Placentia? MR. WELLS: Placentia. Well,Whitbourne as well, because I was going to tell him fir~t that I have the information now on Whitbourne, and that I have not had much of a chance this last dav or so to pursue it in the office, but -I will have the information on Placentia tomorrow. But Whitbourne, I have the file here, and everything in Whitbourne is going along insofar as the government is concerned in a normal fashion, and I am looking at a letter of this Sprin~ in which Mr.

Fred Squires, the town manager, was sent a cheque from the Province in the amount of $60,000 representing the second installment due on the $300,000 commitment given under the Recreation Capital Grant Programme for an indoor ice arena. H563

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3109 Page 3- mw MR. WELLS. The govermaent owes the town of Whitbourne a further $180,000 under this c~itment, and the letter stated that the funds will be fortbcoaing in three installments of $60,000 each over the next three fiscal years. And the Sllllle letter the govermaen -t asked for a receipt and a report on construction. So that is the situation at Whitbourne, and I will have the Placezu:-ia up.date tO!IIOrtow. 956~

June 2, 1976 Tape 3110 PK - 1 ORAL QUESTIONS The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR._h M. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice. We are all very pleased that he has ordered the city police to launch crackdowns on vandals, in particulary in light of the quite disgusting incident which occured over at Hillview Terrace Apartments Tuesday evening,or overnight Tuesday-Wednesday. Could the minister be a little bit more specific though as to exactly what steps are going to be taken?

It is all very well to issue an order, and that is right and proper and appropriate and necessary and desirable, and somewhat belated because the minister often told us vandalism was not a problem in this city. But could he tell us exactly what steps are going to be taken or is this just another cosmetic move? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. ---- ---- HON. T. A. HICKMAN: ---------- Mr. Speaker, you know the han. gentleman, the Leader of the Opposition,should pay more attention to what goes on around him.

Last year the Newfoundland Constabulary implemented what is known as the booster shift which was designed primarily to try and curb vandalism which is a senseless crime that plagues every Canadian city. The results - and most of the acts of vandalism,so statistics show,occur during when the snow is not on the grounds - MR. ROBERTS: It is easier to get around when there is no --------- snow on the grounds. MR. HICKMAN: It is easier to get around. The.result of this very scientific and intensive policing of hot spots around the city had a very satisfactory affect with respect to vandalism in the city of St. John's.

I have never said that there is not vandalism in the city of St. John's. I have said, and I re.~at,that the rate of increase of vandalism in St. John's is below that of any Canadian city. That does not mean that is good enough. What the police will be doing-not only for this particular area where there were these senseless acts of vandalism the night before last~ but again the booster shift will be moving to these trouble spots, and there is no question that they have had - 9565

June 2, 1976 Tape 3110 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: So you are reintroducing the same plan we had last Winter. MR. HICKMAN: -------- Yes. In fact it never really died out; you know, it was always available whenever it was needed, but the need is greater in the Summer than in the Winter. You know, the men agreed to this last year. The second thing is that we do have two men patrol cars during that time of the evening, and they too are instructed to pay more attention to particular areas of the city where trouble is likely to break out. But while I am on my feet, Mr.

Speaker, there is another point in ans~<ering this question I should like to bring to the attention of the han. House. A. lot of these offences, particularly offenses of vandalism against public property are - But these are private properties now. MR. HICKMAN: --------- Yes, - against private property are occurring on private property, a private parking area such as a large apartment building or a mall which is put there,owned by the proprieter,for which under many leases they charge an additional rent for parking apace. MR. ROBERTS: - ·------ And they clear their m~ snow.

I mean,it is like your driveway. ~. __ HICJQ!AN: That is right. Now it is not the responsibility of the police, nor should the police ever be required to start patrolling private property, in the sense of going in and walking up and down private parking places. And I wonder aloud as to why these larger establishments do not have at least adequate security and/or watchman service. MR. ROBERTS: -------- You mean hiring Metropolitan or one of those? MR .

HICKMAN: -·- - --- Or even a night watchman may be sufficient to see something happening to summon the police,because the police can be summoned at night to any. part of the city of St. John's very quickly. And I often hear statements that would indicate that the public feel, for instance, that the police should parade up and down the Avalon Mall. The Avalon Mall is not a public thoroughfare. 9566

June 2, 1976 Tape 3110 PIC - 3 MR. ROBERTS : It 18 a commer~cal venture. MR.. HICKMAN.: It is a quasi public thoroughfare in the sense that the owners invite people to come in. But if we put policemen in the Avalon Mall, the proprietors of Bowring's would have an absolute right to say we want a policeman walking through the asiles of our shop every day too beca11se people go from Water Street to Duckworth Street Via our store. ~· ROBERTS: It is interesting to see bow you get from Water Street to Duc~ortb Street through Bowring's,come to think of it. MR..

RICKMAN: I lliean - no, the Waterfront and Wate .r Stre: .et. ~ . Mr. Speaker, I can only ask the Chief of Police, and he has assured me that 9567

June 2, 1976 Tape No, ~111 NM- 1 MR. HICKMAN: remedial action has been implemented in the hope we can apprehend,and apprehension seems to be the k~v word here and - MR. ROBERTS: Certainty of apprehension is the key. MR. HICKMAN: If there is certainty of apprehension, that is right, and adequate sentencing that will act as a deterrent to those who may in the future decide to commit these rather senseless acts of vandalism. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr.

Speaker, arising out of the same question,obviously; could the minister tell us whether any additional members will be taken into the Constabulary to enable them to provide for this extra service7 I f not from whence do the men come because the men have obviously been fully employed all Winter long, You know, we do not have spare policemen sitting around in St. John's awaiting the coming of Summer and the need for booster par~rols. So if extra men are not to be hired, if extra constables are not to be recruited and trained and put in the field, from whence do these constables come ?

In other words ~ our other areas, our other types of activity either seasonal , and the ~emand is less in this season,or will they have less adequate policing than they have heretofore. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Mjnister of Justice. UR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, it is not proposed to add to the 215 men '~ho are now officers and men now in the Newfoundland Constabalary. Last year the booster shift was taken from that same number of 215 men by an adjustment of the shift schedules because during the daylight hours there is not the same problem with offences as you find in the evening.

The other thing that we have been doing and I would hope, I guess I am being a bit premature on this, that we would hope to be able to relieve the police of a lot of their duties of serving summonses

;June 2, 1976 Tape No, 3111 NM- 2 MR. HICKMAN: which takes up hundreds and hundreds of man-hours in the run of a year,and the third thing is that we are actively negotiating at this type to try and provide alternate security measures for Government House where we have been tying up four policemen, maybe five. MR . ROBERTS: It would be a shame though.! mean- MR. HICKMAN: Well security is - this is the only one of the Government Houses and His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor is very amenable to this - MR , ROBERTS: Well,! am sure His Honour would be but still it would be a shame to end the tradition.

I am sure as long as the - MR . HICKMAN: MR . ROBERTS: MR. BICIMAN: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: Well it is an expensive tradition, Well most traditions are. I suppose. Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary. A supplementary . He is going to keep the place in an uproar about traditions . I am glad the hon. gentleman has returned with a ray of sunshine and good cheer , Sir. MR. YOUNG: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: Why do you not see if you can get Upper Island Cove1 Order, please! Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question to the Minister of Justice; could he tell us whether negotiations are undewway to remove from the police the onerous duty of passing out parking tickets and having that duty carried out by auxilliary forces of some sort quite capable to do the necessary work but freeing up the highly trained eonstabulary members for~shall we say,duties that only they can perform. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, we have had some studies done into that field and,number one,the actual issuance of tickets is not a time­ consuming oart of a policeman's function, or the perfermance of his duties.

That is not the answer to the problem; the answer to 9 5 t)9

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3111 NM - 3 MR. RICKMAN: the proble~~~-,aud. I b•Ueve we may have found it, is the service of the summmonses because here is the way it works; a motorist gets a $2.00 oarking ticket : or whatever it is,on Water Street and he comes out and he looks at it and he puts it in his pocket and he forgets all about it,er he says it is cheap parking anyway and he does not pay it. So eventually this turns up into whatever control system they have at the Traffic Court.

A summons is then issued; a policeman,who most likely will not be the same policeman who put the ticket on the car:has to serve the summons. The fellow takes the summons, he looks at it, by this time he is now running the risk of being charged $5.00 and he again ignores it . And this is not an isolated incident, this happens quite often . it quite often occurs. Then havin~ done that the matter comes before the Magistrate . We need two policemen, one to get into the witness box to prove that the car upon which he pl aced the ticket was indeed owned by J ohn Jon es,and the 9570

June 2, 1976 Tape 3112 }'R. HICKMAN: other police officer to prove that John Jones was indeed served ~dth the summons. When all that is done ~r. Jones is then written again and told, "You now owe fifteen dollars and if you do not pay we are going to take out a warrant of committal." So eventually a warrant of committal is taken out and given to another policeman IB-1 who ~toes up and ~r. Jones says, "I did not realize it '~as that serious. How much is this going to cost me now." "Well, you owe us twenty dollars." So he gives twenty dollars and we have spent about sixtv dollars worth of police officer's time.

With the actual putting of the tickets under the windshield wiper of a car,several of the Atlantic provinces cities are still using the police because they find that other enforcement agencies are not working. One city, I think it was Honcton, switched to security guards or commissioners and/or meter maids and after six months reverted hack to the police agajn. ~. SPEAKEP: The bon. member for LaPoile. "!'R.

NEARY: I would like to ask the ~linister of Social Services if he could give the House some information on the federal- provincial proposal, cost-shared proposal to provide for ftnancial asststance to those people in Canada who are under-employed. Would the minister indicate to the House whether or not Newfoundland w:f.ll be opting in or opting out of that programme that I understand is supposed to come in force by 1978, I thi.nk it i.s? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Social Services. ~. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, the last meeting with respect to that proposed legislation :!~ taking place in Ottawa right now.

The deputy minister of my department is attending the meeting. Our stand is that while this is a very good proposal, a necessary and desirable thing,that we are not able to opt or buy into it at this time. The cost - we do not have an accurate estimate of the cost. We feel that Ottawa's suggestions are way out. I do not 9571

June 2, 1976 Tape 3112 IB-2 ~. BRETT: know where they got their figures. But anyway we have decided at this time,as have I believe all the other provinces,that we cannot go ahead with it now. It is too costly. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question. Would the minister indicate what the additional cost would be over and above what it is costing the province now because the Government of Canada,I understand,ls going to pay seventy-five per cent of the. cost of thi.s new programme~ So what would it cost the Province in dollars and cents? Poes the minister have any idea? !-T .

SPEAI<Efl: The hon. :Minister of Social Services. ~~. B~ETT: It is almost impossible, Vr. Speaker., to determine now •mat it would cost. Seventy-five per cent, this is not true. T~ey have agreed on a new cost-sharing plan. It would still be fifty-fifty on rhe income support that t~e are paying nm.r~whi.ch is the welfare payme11ts now. fln the income supplementation they have agreed to pay s:llCty-six and t"'o-thirds. Rut we have been unable to col!le up >dth anything near an accurate cost up to this point. ~ ~_!:AKEJ! : The hon. member for Terra Nova. HR. UTSH: A 'JUestion for the hon. ~<inister of EducA.tion.

In view of the fact that the NTA has now announced that :It shares the same concern and the same belief as does the president of the university, that is that in the next couple of years that this Province w:lll face a crisis w:lth respect to the supply of properlv trained teachers for elementary and secondary schools, I wonder if the min:l.ster is in a positlon to tell the House what he plans to do to offset such a crisis? 1m. SPFAKEJ!: The hon. Minister of Education. 1rr.. HOT'Sl\: Mr. Speaker, these matters are being discussed at the department level.

One of the things I failed to mention vesterday - and I do not know elCactly where it started - but it would seem as if the people are suggestjng that we are not ~vanting trained teachers. In no way have we trien to stop people from going to university to take teacher education. So, you know,the faculty is still there, the faculty members are still there and of course there are positions or places 9572

June 2, 1976 't'ape 3112 Ill-3 J'!P. ROl'SE: open for prospective student teachers. They are saying we are onlv hav1ny, 200 people per year and that we need 300. Possibly that is true. I was looking at so~ ~tatistics and we are gathering some more from our o~~ department to see if' it i s ind eed our own estima te also .

One of the things they are not bearing in mind of course is the fact that while there are 200 people per year ellJ·ollintt, say, in education.and we need 300, they are not taking into account the fact that there ate a lot of people ROing to university enrolling in bachelor of arts programmes and bachelor of science programmes who will revert to e<'ucation programmes tJhen they fin1sh their bach elor pr oRrammes. They are not counted right now. So we are not 9573 ,..

June 2, 1976 Tape 3113 PK - 1 Mr. Rouse: ----- anticipating a shortage of teachers in the next two years. But statistically if we need 300 teachers per year and, of course, we are only getting 200 trained,statistically it may sound that we will be short. But there are a lot of teachers now, and I do not think we could use up in two years, with 200 coming out per yearl we could not use up teachers that are available now. MR~~~~ER:_ The hen. member for Bate Verte-White Bay. MR. __ ~._RIDE~_!'...:_ Hr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health.

In view of the fact that government hospitals have cut- back on their operatin~ budgets, and in view of the fact that it appears that hospitals have been asked to do this without creating any loss of jobs, without any layoffs, can the minister tell the Rouse how hospitals are in fact expected to achieve their specific budget cuts? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Health. -------- RON. H. COLLINS: ---- ·--- Mr.

Speaker, there have been many meetings since my last report to the !louse on this matter, and all of the hospitals have indi.cated to us that certainly for the Summer months they can bring about the savings which we have asked them to bring about throu~h attrition, through rearrangement for vacation etc. There i.s no indication of any layoffs. MR. RIDEOUT: ------- A supplementary to that. MR. SPEAKER: -------- A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: ------- Have any jobs to this point been lost yet as a result of the cutbacks? MR. RIDEOUT: ---------- Well a further suppleaentary.

Have hospitals cut their budgets back enough yet to equal the saving equivalent to the close down of 200 hospital beds? The bon. Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I would perfer to take notice of that because I am not on top of it, you know, hour by hour. But it is my understanding from the most recent meeting which I had with the

June 2, 1976 Tape 3113 PK - 2 officials downstairs, which was on Monday,that we got the agreement of the hospitals which I aantioned here before, the larger hospitals, to the extent that they will be able to bring about a rate of savings, We canoot bring about all the savings which we are looking for in a week or two weeks. But certainly they have implemented measures to bring about the required rate of savings. And, of course, as I said before,the Review Board which has been established will monitor the situation week by week, month by month, to let us know how they continue to make out. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary ouestion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for J"aPoile for a supplementary. MR. S. A. NEARY: -------- Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Health tell the House if it is possible for the government, for his department to implement other economies rather than to shut down twenty beds at our only children!s hospital in Newfoundland, the Janeway Hospital, at a time of year when the hazards are greatest for children in this Province,in the month of July, and in the Summer months?

Is it possible to implement other economies rather than close down twenty beds at the Bandway Hospital? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. ------ MR. H. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, we have got to look at every area of expenditure, and when one thinks back to the estimates which were approved by this House not too long ago, it is obvious that because of the high cost, a VPry considerable cost in the operation of hospitals that that is the area where we must try and bring about saving. The other programmes which my department sponsors and manages, it is really impossible to save anything there.

In fact, we would like to have much more money for home care which we are getting involved in now. I have had several meetings with the Board at the Janeway, with the medical people who work in the hospital and are there, you know, frequently, and there is no doubt that the implications for the 9575

June 2, 1976 Tal'e 3113 PK - J Mr •. ~· Collins: Janeway is of great concern to all of us, to me as minister, to the government, and to the medical professional, and the hospital administration . Rere.a~ain the most recent meeting we had was a11reed that the Review Board would watch very carefully the situation at the Janeway because the Janeway is,as · the hon . member said,a provincial institution dealing 957{1

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3114 Page 1 - mw Mr. Collins: mainly with children, and there is also the very real possibility that during the Summer months there could be added pressure on the hospital in terms of children whose parents might elect to have surgery done in the Summertime,and for another very real reason and that is that with their kids out of school there is a greater chance of injury and so on. But we are watching the situation very, very carefully. And I might tell the House that we are getting the maximum in terms of co-operation from all the people involved.

And I can assure the House that the Janeway particularly is being watched very carefully. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is the minister aware that the administrator, the board, some time ago expressed grave concern because the Janeway Hospital then was already bursting at the seams? And is the minister aware that you can look after chronic patients in nursing homes, but you cannot put children in nursing homes? And would the minister undertake to review this decision of closing down twenty beds at the Janeway Hospital and try to find the money under some other subhead? MR.

COLLINS: There is not forty being closed. MR. NEARY: Twenty beds are being closed at the Janeway in July,right at the time of the year when this Province needs twenty children's beds most, because of the hazards when the children are out of school? MR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, it is not unusual for the Janeway to close beds during the Summer months.

As I have said before, and I will repeat again, we are concerned with the situation at that particular institution, and I can give the House my assurance that the situation is being monitored daily, and I am satisfied that in the event that some different types of action have to be taken that we will be in a position to do something. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfied with that answer, and I want to debate the matter during the Late Show on Thursday afternoon. 9577

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3114 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d 1 Espoir 1 followed by the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health on the same subject but perhaps a new line of questioning. The minister gave notice earlier that with the objective for economy reasons to shut down 200 beds, can he indicate now whether that objective has been achieved at this moment or when it will be? And also can he indicate where those shut-downs are occurring? can he identify the hospitals and the numbers involved at this time? MR. SPEAKER: The bon.

Minister of Health. MR. COLLINS: 1 do not know if 1 can identify them all, Mr. Speaker, but the General Hospital in St. John's - I do not know if they are making an announcement or not, but thev probably ' will. They will be announcing some bed closures momentarily. St. Clare's have agreed to our budgetary restraints, and it is going to mean some beds closing at St. Clare's. I had a meeting with the Grace Hospital Board, and the chief of medical staff on Monday. They . have some problems, but they have agreed that there is a need to restrain, and they have agreed to close twenty beds. MR.

NEAllY: They have started to close them? MR. COLLINS : They have started to close them. That is right. The Janeway, as I just mentioned, are about to close twenty beds. Gander Hospital, James Paton Memorial, have agreed to close twenty beds. Grand Falls, Central Newfoundland Hospital~have agreed to close eighteen, I believe it is. The Curtis Hospital in St. Anthony, Dr. Curtis Hospital - is it not? - in St. Anthony, they have outlined again to us some of the dangers of the restraint programme, but the most recent communication with Dr. Thomas and Dr.

Roberts indicates that they, too, appreciate what we are up against, and they are doing their best, and they will be closing out in the order of twenty beds. MR. ROBERTS: A good fellow 1 that Dr, Roberts. ~578

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3114 Page 3 - III.W MR. COLLINS: Pr. Peter Roberts. I wish I could say the same- The Christopher Fisher Hospital in Corner ~rook, we are continuing to meet with them. It is a little different pro.blem over the;re in that they are moving into a new hospital. I maan,they know what their budgetary rest .raints are going to be. I do not anticipate any problem, because I do not see how it can be possible for them to be able to open and indeed us.e all of the beds during the SUlllller months. They will have geared up or staffed up later on, but we do not anticipate any problem.

Whethe1; that amounts t .o 200 ·beds or not, Mr. Speaker, I do not know, but certainly the restraints Which I am t,alking about do meet the figures. MR. SDfMONS: Stephenville. MR. COLLIN.S: AD,d Stephenville. 1 am not sure of Stephenville. I believe it is ten or fifte~n. They have agreed to our proposal anyway. MR. SIMMONS : Ml!,. SPEAICER: A supplementary • ·Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. 9579

June 2, 1976 Tape 3115 IB-1 1om • S I~ONS : The minister has identified a number of hospitals throughout the Province. Are we to assume that these hospitals in particular were requested to consider closing beds~or was it a general request to all hospital boards in the Province? MP .• SPEAKF.l': The bon. ~inister of Health. ~. R. COLLINS: The hospitals I just mentioned, ~r. Speaker, are the major hospitals across the Province. We have reviewed the budgets. The budgets which the boards presented earlier on in the year were cut and slashed and cut and slashed again,as was always the case.

Eventually they said they could not accept any more and wP imposed this additional $2 million restraint programme on them. We met with the larger hospitals because we wanted to make sure that the programme was implemented fa i.rl y and equally. It couJ d never work,and everybody keeps telling us that they are going to watch the situation •nd monitor the situation to make sure that all of those hospitals are treated equally and that is very important to us if we are going to succeed with the programme.

With regard to the other hospitals in the Province, some operated by boards which I have not mentioned~arid the hospitals whtch are operated hy the government, better known as the cottage hospitals, we have not closed beds because it is not practical to close beds in those institutions by reason of the size of the institution. !lut they are feel:lng the>. p:fnch of the restraint programme just the same. }ll!. SU'J-{ONS: A supplementary. VR. SPEAKE~: I will allow one further suppJementar v. 1-'R. SIJ.II'ONS : 'fA'r . Speaker, I believe we are getting the answer now to the questions that we pursued a long time ago.

Hould the minister agree then that in vie'~>T of the cutbacks in the budget and his discussions with hosp:ltal boards, certain hospital boards in particular, is :It not true to assu~. it is not correct to assume that the r,overnment knew from the heginnin~ exactly where the hospital bed close-downs were roin~ to take place? 9580

June 2, 1976 Tape 3115 VR. H. COLLINS: no you mean fro~ a geo~raphic point of view or within the hospital point of view? IB-2 1-'R. STI-'}IONS: I w:lll put the question this way, 1-'r. Speaker. Did the government, di~ the ryepartment of Health have any list of hospitals i.n mind where it hoped to achieve the objective of closing down 200 beds at the time the programme was announced? MP. H. COLLINS: ¥r. Speaker, as I just said,if you have $2 million to save you naturally look at the areas where most of the money is being spent,and certainly in this case we would look at the major hospitals across the Province.

He looked at the re~ional implications also because all the hospitals which I have mentioned are re~ional type institutions and it is much easier of course to spread the load there and equal tze the restraints than it would he any other way. ~. SI~NS: Mr. Speaker, I am dissatisfiecl with the answPr and I woul~ like to debate it tomorrow even:lnr as well. _ }IP.. SPF.AKEP: The hon. member for ~tephenville,followed hy the hon. member for LaPoile. MR. W. MCNEIL: Mr.

Speaker, a quest:fon to the hon. ~'inister of Transportation and Communications. r.ould the hon. minister tell this House if the Hansen Memorial Highway will be reconstructed this year and the

section of road in Coal ~rook? I think this one is one-eight tenths or eight tenths of a mile. Will that be paved this year as well? The equipment is stHl out :In that area. }IP.. SPEAKER: The hon. 1-'inister of Transportation and Communications. }IP.. ¥ORGAN: ~·r. Speaker, to the best of my knowledge these projects will not be carried out this year. There is a limited amount of funds that we can spend on road projects around the Province and unfortunately we cannot include all the needs for to carry out reconstruction and paving of roads around the Province. MP. SPEAKEP: The hon. member for J,aPoile. YoR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the government Rouse Leader undertook s~me time ago to try to get the options on the MacPherson pr~perty from ~r. Robert ~• orp;an, the p:entleman who apparently made an excessive profit overnight on the ~acPherson property. Has the minister been !.15 81

June ,2, . 1976 tape 3115 I!l-3 ~.NEARY: successful in getting the options or has Mr. Morg~ refused to l!'ive the minister the options? If the minister has the options, will he table them in the !'louse? ~. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. t-<R. WELLS: I mentioned that matter to Mr. 'Morgan's lawyer and 1 have heard nothing since. ~. NEARY: A supplementary Question. Would the minister undertake to see if the minister can get an an.swer before the House closes from ~r. ~organ's lawyer,Whoever he may he? ~!JI. WELLS: l>Jell~I can ask again whether he is going to do it, Nr.

Speaker, but I have no power to compel him to give it. These are !"organ's private documents. If he wants .to give them, he can. If he does not want to give them, only a court would have the power to subpoena them. MP. NF.ARY: 'Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Do I jnterpret the minister's answer as meaning that silenc .e on the part of ~'r. ¥organ's lawyer is being interpreted by the minister as being a refusal to give the minister the information requested by the Houser ~"fl. WElJ .. l': It ~~as requested by me, ¥r. Speaker, not by the House. M!. NEARY: l'elJ,do I interpret the min:!.ster correctly?

Is that the ans~orer . 'R . 1\'F'I..T . ~: Well, J prestu" e he is n.ot goi.nJt to s encl them. ~rn. NEA~Y: Be i~ not ~oin~ to co-operate? }IJl , 1-.'ELLS : l•;elJ ~I preswre so. I do not know. T. have heard noth in~Z futhPr anY' ·lR • I-1R. SPEAKFill: The hon . Le~tder of the ClpposHion, follo~o>ed bv the member for Jle11 eV11e. :•P . P.OBF.Il"l'S: !'r. ~oenker, in the ahsence of the !inist:er r-f Public Hnrl<s to •>hom I-

June 2, 1976 Tape 3116 IB-1 ~'fR. ROBERTS : no, he may not have seen it - T sent a note that I would be asking this question. Perhaps the l"inister without Portfolio couln accept it on behalf of his colleague. It relates to }<r. Allan Evans of Isle aux l"orts, formerly a member of this House. I would like to kno .. , whether }<r. Evans is presently an employeee of the government of this Province. 1-IP • NEARY : Were you not here the night I congratulated him? ¥1'. ROBERTS: 1-'r. Spea\>-er, if I could repeat the question. I t~ould Hke to know "1hether 1-lr. F:vans 1s an employee of the "Province at present.

If so, hy what authority he was hire~,or by whose authority or hy which authority? I would like to know his general service .ranre, the general range of his salary, the classification of the position. I would like to know what are his duties an~ I would like to know as well whether he was hired after a competition administered by the Public Service r.ommission. Perhaps the minister,if he does not have the information,he mi~ht be able to get it for me. I see h:is colleague is back now but his colleague may not have the information, may want to get it, take it as notice. MR. SPEAKEP: The hon.

Minister of Public Works And Services. )>P. FARRELL: }'r. Speaker, it is with great joy that J al" able to announce that we have hired ~~T. Evans. SO¥!': RON. ~~ERS: Hear, hear! DP. FARRELL: We obtained his services - YF. NEARY: r.ompetition for the job was very keen. ~~FARRF~.L: Very keen. Great ~ifficulty was experienced in obtaining his services. He was a hit unw:ll ling. llut after much discussion we did obtain his services - I am very proud to announce that - 1~ his job a~ building inspector. Chief inspector. MR. NEARY: pR. FARRELL: Not quite yet-building inspector.

His job will consist of fishery buildings, public tmrks and some environment work. I know he will be giving very valuable service to this government in the coming years. !1583

June 2, 1976 Tape 3116 lll-2 AN RON. MF.~EP.: On a contract basis? nF. FARFELL: Hire~ on a contract basis. SOIAE liON. 1-!Et'BE'PS: Rear, hear~ ~m. ROBEPTf:: A SLlpple.mentary. Mr. Speaker, I thank the min i ster for his informative and jovial answer and I appreciate both. He sairl in closing that }<r. Evans ha.rl been hirec'l on a contractual basis. Cou] rl the minister tell us the amount of the payment each year. J think that is - H11. LtTNnRIC:A.'\1 : no you want his i.ncome tax derluctions anrl hts f'PP. Ml> , SPF.AKF.P: Order, please!

Mr. ~peaker, the minister of Industrial Relations may think this House has no right to information but I happen to rlisagree. l think the House disagrees. 1-<r. Speaker, if I coul<i ask the amount of the contractual payment each year and if I could ask also the length of the period of the contract. TlP. FARRF.LL: I do not know exactly,hut I will take that as notice of the question, Sir. The contract is for one year. VR. ROBEl>TS: Renewable? ------ DR. FAFRELL: Yes~renewahle. The han. member for Bellevue. Thi.s "'Hl be the final question. 1'1! • CALLAN : Mr .

Speaker, "'Y nuestion is for the ~<in1ster of Rural nevelopment and Jnrlustrjal f\evelopment .

In view of the fact that there is a large percentage of unemployment throur,hout the Prov~nee 1 and in view of the fact that the situation seems to be appearinp. to get l·rorse every day with, of course, no foreseeable Ot'en:lnp up of Come By Chance,and yesterday we heard the announcement of the close down of Gull Island and so on, in view of all these things, coulrl the minister tell me whether or not his department has given anv thour,ht or have anv plans for po!<;s:!bly i.ntroducinr; some J.ahour intensive pror,rammes? I am thinking for example of so~ething s:!milar to LIP.

Tt o:loes not have to be call eel that. Or OFY, Opportun:! t:!es !'or Youth, or perhaps OFYO, Opportunjties For Young and Old. noes his

June 2, 1976 Tape 3116 IB-3 toqt, CALT.AN : department have any plans for projects like that? }~_. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Industria] Development. MR. LtmnRICAN: My department rloes not have any plans alon~ these 1:'-nes, This js not the mandate of the ~epartment of Rural nevelopment.

It is a development department concentratin~ on small :'-ndustry, basically, designated rural development, of a development nature, of a manufactnrin!r nature. as the hon·. member is aware, which he has experienced in his riding,and I do not think there are any such specific plans of rovernment in any department that I am aware of. But maybe my collea~ue in "l'anpower and Industrial Relations m:!_ght have some comment. Rut certain]y that is not the mandate of the Department of Rural nevelopment at all.

I would hope that the member is not serious in his suggestion that the department institute a progrannne, LIP programmes.

I was hoping thl\t ;~t some point in the future the federal government maybe would divert their LIP monies that they have spent and have unfortunately in some wayg curta11ed,into government departments across the country~sttch as the development departments in this Province to help us create employment of a more pPrmanent nature based on resource development rather than just to throw money at the economy doing a patchwork job hopefully to take the sting out of unemployment for a very temporary period and heinr lost as a result of the fact that the wor~ has dissipated at the end of a few weeks.

So consequently I have never been a very great, strong participant among the people who say that LIP projects are the answer to our economy. The answer to our economy lies :f.n developing our resources. I think we are making certain gains in that direction and hopefully when the major issue which was talked about yesterday and alluded to hy the member today is properly resolved, we will see a major spurt ahead of a development nature that will have a great deal of permanency in the Province. SO~ RON. MEMBERS: Hear., hear! MR. CALLAN: I am dissatisfied with the answer.

I would like to debate it on the Late Show. 9585

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3117 Page 1 - mw ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Today is Privace Members' Day,or it is traditionally by the orders of the House, and I would automatically call Motinn 15. I have been informe~ that there has been unanimous consent to preceed as on any other day. Is that agreed? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 9. On motion of the hon. Minister of Health, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Hospitals Act, 1971," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 82). MR. SPEAKER: Motion 10. On motion of the hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and !lousing, a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 84) MR. SPEAKER: Motion 11. On motion of the hon. Min~ster of Municipal Affairs and !lousing, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Assessment Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 81). HR. SPEAKER: Motion 12. On motion of the hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment,' a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-Operative Societies Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 83). MR.

SPEAKER: Motion 13. On motion of the hon. Minister of Justice, a bill, "An Act To Repeal And Replace The District Courts Act," read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No. 80). MR. SPEAKER: Order 6. Motion second reading of a bill, "An Act To Adopt A Mineral Emblem For Thf: Province." (Bill No. 2). MR. SPEAKER: ~~-WELLS: The hon. Minister without Portfolio. Mr. Speaker, I will introduce this act in the absence of my colleague, the Minister of Mines and Energy. It is a verv simple act,

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3117 Page 2 - mw MR. WELLS: Mr. Speaker, with only two clauses, and I will read them because I think this is a very historical act, and

an act that I am sure will be received with pleasure by all citizens of Newfoundland and Labrador. "This Act may be cited as The Mineral Emblem Act, 1975-1976. (2)"The mineral known as labradorite is hereby adopted as, and is deemed to be, the mineral emblem of the province." Now this is, as I say, a verv short, very much to the point act, Mr. Speaker.

It certainly,I am sure,will give every member of this House pleasure that this act is brought in, introduced, and certainly I think it will give the people of the Province pleasure that this beautiful stone, originating in Labrador, and so attractive and decorative for jewelry and for any decorative purpose,should be the mineral emblem of this Province, More especi::d]y I think and mon• to the point than anything el~;e, is the fact, ~·r.

Speal<er, that Labradorite is a stone from the Labrador part of this Province, and to find that stone, and to have that stone as our mineral emblem I think will please everyone in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WELLS: As I say I am verv pleased today to introduce this act, and I am sure that there will be other hon. members who will want to have a word on it. lht it gives me great pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to move second reading. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, I have been greatly involved in Labradorite now for six or seven years.

And since we are going to adopt it as the mineral emblem of the Province I thought I would like to say a few things about this stone, about this gem, and its history so that we would know in this House, the members of this House would know a little bit more about the emblem that we are adopting as the mineral emblem of the Province. I had hoped at the same time that the Minister of Rural Development and Industrial Development would have been in the House, because I was going to express some points which may have been of interest to him, as we looked ~587

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3117 Page 3 - liiW Mr. Strachan. at the picture in t~ing to develop this semi-precious stone as a possible small industry on the Labrador Coast. However~ Labradorite is a felspar which is found in eruptive rocks, generally volcanic rocks. It is esaentially a potash felspar, that is 1it is a felspar which has potassium and, therefore, that gives it its green, blue or purple colours. MR. SMALLWOOD: rould not sow~ of your coJlearues come in and listen to th1s? MR. STRACHAN: I do not know if I got many co11 eap:ues 1 eft. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

STRACHAN: Anyway the stone is not only found in Labrador but it is also found in Greenland. It is also found in Sweden. It is found in small quantities in the USSR. It is also found in Mount Etna itself in Sicily 1 on the volcano. But the major deposit of this stone is around Nain, on an island ten miles south of Nain, on an island called Napotulagatsuk Island, actually. I can see Hansard having trouble with some of the names that I am going to bring in. Napotulagatsuk Island is now changed, as it is traditional in our history to change all native names, it is now called Tabor Island.

But its original name meant an island which had a shining light. I should indicate here that this is quite common in Labrador, that many of the names common to the area, native names, have always been changed or commonly been changed. Both the church and explorers and so on had the constant habit of attaching their names to islands or peaks or mountains when they came and explored these areas~disregarding totally the local names. It is quite common in Labrador, too, of course, to change personal names as well.

So 111any times Apponote l•'oulcl hecome Simon or we would give English christian names to native people. I know many friends who have had their names changed by the church or by government or even a system of giving them numbers, instead of giving them a name. However, to get back to the point here,the desposit is on this island , Napotulagatsuk Island, with other deposits on Taktok, 9588

June 2 , 1976 Tape no. 3117 Page 4 - mw Mr. Strachan. and Kikkertavak Island which is a very long island, and there are some deposits further south around Port Hope Simpson area. 9589

June 2, 1976 Tape 3118 PK - 1 Hr. Strachan: As I said.it is a felspar in which the potassium predominates over the aodium,or the potash predominates over the soda, so we get this blue green and purple colour, especially the purple which is favoured by most people rather than the red and yellow. The yellow and red sometimes comes out when the sodium predominates.

It was first discovered by the Western World in 1774 by a missionary called Wolfe, not the soldier Wolfe, but a missionary called Wolfe who came over with the Moravian Missio11, the PniT:y Brethr'm anc:l he discovered this stone in 1774 and brought it back to Europe. For the next few years there was a great demand for the stone, and there was a great deal of excitement in Europe ahout seeing for the first time this very beautiful, semiprecious stone. Then the excitement died out as no one continued on with the supply and it disappeared for a long time.

Now on Xapotulagapsok Island, Tabor who discovered the Island,for all intents and purpose to the Western World discovered the Island,started a small quarry to quarry the stone. And this was carried out by the Moravian Mission quite vigorously and they made a great deal of .1ewelery out of it) ~mc:l they al!!o attempted to make stone slab similar to marble. What happens is when the stone is cut at ninety degrees it has a property called the property of schillarization or the property of refracting and reflecting light which gives it this depth, this beautiful colour when polished.

The cleavable wasses then can he cut ann o11e can get very Jarre masses cut, certainly big slabs as three feet, four feet,which could be removed and cut very thinly, and give a very beautiful decorate of stone. It has not been done that way. Small experiments were started but it requires a fair amount of equipment to cut that type of - to get the cutting equipment to cut that stone out. It is a very hard rock. MR.. SMALLWOOD: It will not stand blasting? MR. STRACHAN: ---·---- No. Brinex or Brinco took over the rights to this quarry, and they started to blast it out. Now unfortunately what !.15 !} 0

June 2, 1976 Tape 3118 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: ------ happens with Labradorite is it has fractures running all through it, and as soon as one starts to excavate it or remove it by blasting,what happens is the blasting shatters the ro~k, not only for the rock you pick up from the blasting, but also shatters the rock for quite an area around.

So as one moves on you continually keep shattering the pieces, and you also find that when you try to make jewelery out of this shattered or blasted rock that the .1ewelery will often fracture or often crack or fracture lines will develop in it and your gem or your stone will fall apart. What happened then was the surface area of, and I will use the correct name of the Island, Napotulagapsok Island . Tabor Island in English - that the surface area has now become blasted and there is not a great deal of good gem quality rock left on the surface.

One would have to clear of the debris and get down lower in order to get at new rock which was not damaged by the blasting process. I hecame involved when Brinex gave up quarrying rights to the islands seven years ago, and they surrendered their quarrying rights saying that they were of no commerical interest in them ~ny!llore. They had removed sufficient quantity, there was a backlog in Montreal and in various other places.

And I became involved because many companies outside of this Island are, outside of Labrador and the Island specifically,many companies outside tried to gain the quarrying rights, the quarrying permits for the labradorite in the region. Now what happened for three or four years with no quarring rights being given there, people would fly in from ~aine.

United States, the F.astern Seaboard, United States, from Montreal, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, people would fly into Labrador North? land in Nain,hire local people, take the boats and quarry the rock during the Summer, bag it all~bring it back to Nain,ship it out on the coastal boat and this rock was then shipped to Nova Scotia, Montreal, or the United States. We objected intensely to this because we felt that people were coming in and for next to nothing ~591

June 2, 1976 Tape 3118 PK - 3 Mr. Strachan: ------ removing what was a semiprecious stone from this Province and taking it all elsewhere to develop it into a gem which they would reAp a great deal of profit from.

So what we did was that I,with the assistance of Leo Barry who was then the Minister of Mines and Energy, and he gave us a great deal of assistance here, and his Deputy Minister, we formed this corporation called the Labrador Innuit Development Corporation, it is just a name, and we applied for the quarrying rights for all labradorite in the area, and we marked it out, and we applie0 for the quarryin~ right~, paid the pe~its,and we obtaine~ it in trust, and I should indicate this, the Labrador Innuit Development Corporation obtained the quarrying rights for all the known labradorite deposits in trust for the people, the residents of the Labrador Coast.

MR. SMALLWOOD: For the whole of Labrador? - ·· -- ·- ----- MR. STRACHAN: Essentially yes. Essentially. The idea was first to try and develop on the Labrador Coast some kind of small industry, and we were afraid at that time that if we allowed it to go else- where and within the Province, I mean either to Goose Bay, as well as to St. John's or Corner Brook, that what would happen we would see exactly the same quarrying process a.n~ whi.ch the l oca] peopJ.e were never giving any encouragement, incentive to get into a small industry. So we very specifically made it in trust for the people of the Labrador Coast.

We then went to try and get the next stage, the next sten forward which was to set up a small industry and with the help of the Labrador Services Division there was some equipment laid aside to be sent into Nain. Unfortunately the division and the people involved did not know very much about labradorite and the equipment they sent in to Nain specifically was almost hobby eouipment; it was eouipment that one would outfit one's basement with if one were interested in a weekend picking up occasional rocks. It certainly was not equipment which could be used ~l59 2

June 2, 1976 Tape 3118 PK - 4 Mr. Strachan: commerically, intensively,five days or six days of a week to produce gems 7 or for setting in silver settings or rho~ium platen settings or for getting into any other decorative kind of work. So with the result then without any equipment the people tried to set up a small industry themselves, and this has struggled and failed really because of lack of development, lack of training, lack of equipment. It is not because the people have no interest; there are many people who are interested in se~ting up a small business and getting employed in producing lahradorHe jewelry.

They understand they need training because these sto.nes or jewelry that they were preparing was often very poor quality, not because of their fault but because the equipment they were using was extremely primitive, and they had no expert training as to how to make the actual settings or how to prepare the whole setting before the stone was added. So in the end, and last year or so, the last two years, this thing has almost died. There are some labradorite cut in Nain, hut the equipment is not being used, and nobody is preparing anything locally.

We have resisted a number of jewelery stores~ and people interested in the Province have come t.o Nain,and we have resisted supplying them with any labradorite. And the reason is not purely a selfish reason; the reason is that the people wanted to get into this business, they have no capital, no money whatsoever, they want to set up a small industry, and they feel that as long as they are supplying the raw material to a commerical venture somewhere else regardless where it be, then obviously the market will be filled and there will be no need for someone to set up the industry there.

What about the Reverend Raddash? MR. STRACHAN: -------- Well, yes, Reverend Haddash did try fer many, many years, he tried to get this going, and it worked quite actively. The only problem was at that _time he was living in a community in which 9593

June 2, 1976 Tape 3118 PK - 5 Mr. Strachan: c011D11unications were very poor, where you would never see anyone from one year to the next, and so he never got in very far off the ground. But I think right now if we are going to establish labrM.orite as a mineral eJIIblem of this PT't>Vince, and I t ·ake it that this ts a sincere ge.sture and a sincere move, that if we are then let us get beyond the sta~e of just tokenism of the labradorite, and let us try and get into this and develop a small industry on the Labrador Coast which may l!lllploy only five or six or at the most tell people, but they could U594

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3119 NM- 1 MR. STRACHAN: produce jewelry which could be sold, exactly the same as the Pitcher Plant is sold , on lapel pins or various other things, it could be sold, there is a very good market, the market demand is excellent for good quality gems and a small industry could be set up here.

An effort needs to be made into the marketing but the demands,as far as we are concerned, the demands, the amount of letters we get, the amount of calls we get, the amount of people visiting who want supplies of the stone or of the gem, certainly outdo any of this supply we can do0 We cannot keep up with the demand.

I think the whole thing needs to be put together now and I think that if we are seriously interested in making it a true mineral emblem of the Province then this would be an excellent venture for the Department of Rural and Industrial Development to get involved in, to spend some money on, to get into proper equipment, proper training, and give the people assistance in making a commercial venture. I am not talking about any future government subsidized businesses. We had enough attempts at that on the Labrador Coast and most of them failed because initially they take away the initiative of the people - MR.

MURPHY: Paternalism. MR. STRACHAN: - they turn them down. It is paternalism. They turn them down to be just pure civil servants, employees of a department or a division with headquarters somewhere else. I am talking of making a proper, small, little corporation in which government contracts for the stone, and contracts from other places could be given to them since we are going to make it the mine~al emblem of the Province. And I would hope then that if we do 0fficia1ly recognize the rock,that we also recognize the people and try to develop their skills so that we can create a small and worthwhile industry.

I support the bill. MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The hon. member for St. John's Centre. MR. MURPHY: I am just wondering, a statement that the hon, gentleman . 9595

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3119 NM- 2 MR. MURPHY: made, you started this Inuit Association, and vou started it and fa:fle~, was there any effort made at that time, as you suggested now for Rural Development.that someone get in, advise you as to what kind of equipment you should buy, this type of thing. I am just wondering where something like this is what we want , and if we had one thousand of them it would be better than a Come- By-Chance or anything else. Was there any effort made at that time, I am ~ust wondering, for help in that way? ~m.

STRACHAN: I do not want to get into the nasties of the business and so on,but pe9ple did come in to try to train the local people . Rut as soon as they saw the equipment which had been shipped into Labrador, and to get specific the equipment was ordered by people within Confederation Building, or people within St. John's who lust saw :l.t in a catalopue and orclered equ:lpMent. It wts shipped tn Labrador, pulled into a house and when the came to look at it it was all hobby equipment which one would build in a basement. MR. MURPHY: Like you get in manual training. MR.

STRACHAN: It was not the type of equipment and especially if you are going to get into the slab thing,which I think is an excellent idea, to get into the decorative slab of which there is a very high market, especially for people wanting to either do their basement floors or floors for recreation dens or a wall.

For instance,you can have an extremely beautiful wall- I started on one which will probably take me the next ten years to finish because it is just hard work- but it ~uld be a wall in a house or a living room or a den of Labradorite slabs, it could be extremely beautiful and of coursp extremely expensive too. But many people are prepared to pay that kind of money - MR. MURPHY: It is a lifetime thing~of course. MR. STRACHAN: - and it is certainly comparable with marble and I would say that the Labradorite polished slabs are far more decorative and far more beautiful than marble. MR.

MURPHY: Do they come in different coloursl HR. STRACHAN: Yes. 959fi

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3119 NM- 3 MR. SPEAKER (MR. YOUNG): The hon. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I congratulate the government on their decision to make Labradorite the mineral stone of Newfoundland. I think it is excellent • . ! think it is a splendid idea. I was fascinated indeed by the account given to us now by the hon. gentleman from Eagle River District (Mr. Strachan). He lives down bhere. He knows about what has happened down there. I can add a little to what he has said.

I was interested to hear the names of the other parts of the w~rld in which what we call lahrador1te and which has another name, a scientific name, is to be found, including the Soviet Union.

The House may be interested to know that the body of Nikolai Lenin, the originator of the Communist Revolution in what is now the Soviet Union, his body, so marvellously preserved, is in a tomb in Red Square, where you can see it: a queue a mile to a mile and a half long every day of the year, every day of the year, including Sundays, lines up, get in line to get in and just walk slowly past the bier containing the body of Lenin, the father of the Russian Revolution.

I got in that line, I was vith a very distinguished man - at least he was distinguished at that time, he is less distinguished now; he is almost,you may say,extinguished now­ ! got in line with him and the authorities in Moscow put us back just a couple of hundred feet from the entrance to the tomb so we did not have long - but even then you are creeping along at a wonderfully slow pace, and this great line behind you.

And we went down, Richard Nixon and I, together down one flight of steps into the tomb where Lenin's body is and I was, as the House may well imagine, I was rather flabbergasted to discover that that tomb is lined throughout witblahrarorite. And I explained to­ you are not supposed to talk loudly in that tomb, to the Russians it is a very sacred place, the body of the father of the revolution, 9597

June 2, 1976 Tape No. 3119 NM- 4 MR. SMALLWOOD: Nikolai Lenin, I suppose one day if in the Pecple's Republic of China they decide to make a place for Mao Tse Tung it will be even more holy there than Lenin's tomb is in Moscow. So you are not supposed to talk but I explained to Nixon, I said, "Look ,this is Jabradorite." I touched the wall.

Now I hear from the bon. gentleman that Russia is one of the places where it is found and that suggeste to the thought to me that it wc>ult1 be perhaps a good idea if somebody went over to the Soviet Union, first of all arranging with the Soviet Embassy in Ottawa, having prior arrang~mrnts made, so that when he arrived in Moscow he wonld Jrnow the right people and they would be expectinlJ: him, po over to the Soviet Union and find out how they process 1 ahrar'ori te, how they get it out of the bed in which it is; is is by saw and if so what kind of saw, how can you get the J abrac!ori te out the substantial quantity, quantity not too big to handle, but- MR.

MURPHY: Could I interrupt for a second? When you say labradorite is that our labradorite? MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes. It is the same mineral. MR. MURPHY : Mined in Labrador? MR. SMALLWOOD: It is the same exactly. No. No. l.ahrac'orite in Lenin's tomb was obtained in the Soviet Union. MR. MURPHY: I see. MR. Sl1ALLWOOD: What part of the Soviet Union is the particular source of labradorite in that vast nation which is the world's biggest country - MR. HICKEY: What do they call it over there? MR. MURPHY: We call it labradorite because it is mined in Labrador. MR. SMALLWOOD: Right. Labradorite is only a name. MR. J.

CARTER: Would the bon. member like a similar tomb? MR. SMALLWOOD: Well,! would be less interested in the tomb in which my body will lie than in things before I need a tomb. MR. NEARY: You coulcl make a hut: ton for tte han. memher 's mouth. tl598

June 2, 1976 Tape No . 3119 NM- 5 HR. SMALLWOOD: I tbink it might be well worthwhile, somebody going . to the Soviet Union by prearrang~nt, to learn what be can learn about the process there, what they use Ja.hradorite, or whate~er the scientific uame may be, f.or; how they ])roc!esa it; into what products it is turned and how and what kind of equipment is used. HR. MURPHY: Does tha bon, member mean a little river that puts money into prjv~te co~panies? MR • . SMALLWOOD: I was comi.ng to that. That is exactly what I was coming to.

If the development of it in Labrad9r is to be done on a non-private profit basis, if it is a non-profit thing­ hopefully it would be profitable, but not the dividends will go into the pockets of individuals; ,.

June 2, 1976 Tape 3120 IR-1 HF , SNALLWOOD: it is a social movement I take it, something like a co-operative · if that is the case I do not see why the government could not underwri.te the expenses if the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) was willing to do it,and he would be an ideal one to do it for a number of reasons, one of which is that he has a 'sort of scientific background.

True that scientific background in particular has been in fish but it js a scientific background, then because he is there where the labradorite is, and thirdly 7 because he is tremendously interested, and as there is no profit in it for him, why could not the government defray the cost of his visiting the Soviet Union to see what he can find out from people who are actually using labradorite? ~fP. J. r..ARTER: lvoul <1 the member permit a question? 1'-'P. Sl"'ALT.WOOD; Yes. •w. J. r.ARTEP.: Mr. Speaker, 1.!ho 1~as it who gave away the J abraclor:l te to Br:l.nex and Br:lnco?

Under whose admin :f stra tion was this asset gi ven a"ra y? ¥II. SMALLWOOD: It ~<•as under my arlmin:f.stration, but I d:f rl not give it a1.ray nor d:ld 111y M111linistrat1on. It belonged to the ~oravian missionaries and the Moravian missionaries or the Moravian !"'iss:lon, the Yoravian }'issionary Organization of Labraclor who had the concession - or w;~s :It r.renfell? AN HON. !E}IBER: No, it was the }forav:l an "'iss ion. 1'-'P. S¥ALLWOOn: I believe it was the l'oravian people who had the concession and they had p,ot it 100 years before, ceded it,probahly by sale or in some ~my to Brinex.

It was not the government's to give. If it has been the governmen~s to give at that time and Brinex hac'! expressed a clesire to work it,I do not think my adMin:!stration would have hesitated for a moment to give them the right to develop. l<'hen they dropped it,I then tried to persuade a certail'l well known 1ndustrialist in Newfoundland,on the West Coast of Newfoundland, to take a personal :Interest in it. I suggested to him that he go to Italy ancl see the w~y they treated marble because, like the hon. ~entleman who just spoke,! believed then and I be]ieve no"'' that there

•, June 2, 1976 Tape 3120 IB-2 ~. . S}~ALLHOOn: may well be a magnificant future in tbe use of labradorite for decorative stone for buildings, for the lobby of a beautiful buHding. If the lobby of this buildinp were finished in labradorite it would be extraordinarily handsome indeerl. It should not be used for ordinary building purposes, but :It should be used only in buildings for the decorative effect of a rotunda, of a Jobby, of a hallway or of a special room in a building hf'cause J do not SUflpose the quantity is inexhaustable.

I do not suppose there is enough in the deposit there~or the deposits because there is more than one deposit, I do not suppose there is enough alto~ether to stand a preat amount of quarrying and export of labradorite in an unpolished condition to be processed and used up and down the continent. I do not imagine there .is that much. The hon. gentleman wanted to ask someth:fng? .lT.· STP.ACHAN: The only deposit which :Is being commercially mined is the deposit in Napotulapatsuk. There are six other deposits that we know of and there are many more Which have never been looked at or people have never gone to.

In fact one of the largest and best deposits is also one of the most inaccessible and is called by local people and everyone on the coast, it :Is called the Pearly Gates,and when ore starts to go in from the river bed and rises to a he:f.ght of approximately 800 feet up to 2,000 feet, one goP-s up through a very narrow ravine in Winter and on hath sides of that narrow ravine, a very dramatic ravine,is pure Jahradorite. That is Why it is called the Pearly Gates, not because it seems as though you are going to heaven going up through here but also because it shines.

But you cannot get in there in the Summer, so therefore nobody has ever touched it. IP. SJ.IALl.WOOD: It is very obvious, 1-'"r. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman from Eagle River constituency (Mr. Strachan) is extremely well informed on this matter of one of the most interesting of this Province's natural resources. It is one th:f.n~t for the government to dec.lare it, or ask the House. to declare the mineral token - what is the 9601

June 2, 1976 Tape 3120 ~ffi. S!d'ALLWOO : word? - emblem of Newfoundland. That is goo~. That is excellent and we are going to vote for it I aro sure. But if some of the ideas suggested by the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) could be put into effect it would be exeellent. IB-3 I, by way of comment on the question put to me by the hon. gentleman for St. John's North (Mr. J. rarter),I may say that I d:ld take some personal interest.

Before Brinex 1 or Brinco it was really, showed any interest in :!t,I got permission from the Moravians to have small <'uantities of the labradorite brought or t11.ken, removed and had it brought to St.

John's and the late WHliam Bond Taylor 1 kno~m to all h1.s friends as BiJ ly Bond Taylor - he was call eel after Sir Robert Bond - from Carbonear who lost his life very tragically indeed with two of his gran<lchildren, the;.r ·~ent clown all three of them in a boat on a pond during a holiday- Bill Bond Ta~'lnr startecl a little business here of polish:lng the lahrarlor:f.te i.nto jewellery ancl that operated for quite a number of years. If I am not mista~en T thjnk the government gave some k:f.nd of small financial ass:! stance to that little venture. tom. WELLS: Where do people get the:lr present supply? MR.

SMALLWOOD: l-lell I rio not know H anybody gets any present - whether there is a present supply. The hon. member for Eagle ntver (Mr. Strachan) says that they fro~n rlo~~ there on the idea of people coming in and getting any supply because they want the thing done rif!ht. So there may not be an ex:!stinp: supply or a cont:!nu:lnF; supply right now. Another thought that occurs to me, }'r. Speaker, :Is this: Tn Portugal they have a F;reat talent for the manufacture of silver - what do yo11 put jewels :In, 'lo>hat is :It called? -~· STllAr.HAN: The setting. The settinp.

The Portugese are famous for their sk:f J 1 at settinp:s, makinR th:!.s wonderful filigree and other very f:lne and very beautiful settings for jewellery. Why should not somebo<ly 9602

June 2, 1976 Tape 3120 IB-4 ~. SMAU.WOOD: go to Portugal, try there to f:l.nd someone who would come and go down to Labra~or and spend a year down there as an instructor with the r:lght equipment and with Whatever knowledge might be obtained in the Soviet !.Inion and really take th:ls thin~ very seriously, not merely making it our emblem, mineral emblem, but turn:l .nr, it into a small industry which might, as the hon. member says, employ only ei~ht or ten people. But I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that every eip,ht or ten iobs created in th:ls Province today is a m:lghty triumph.

It is a sad fact,but it is a fact nonetheless. I am delighted with the government for havi~g introduced this. I am humiliated that I did not think of it. If I had thought of it believe me there would have been a bill in here askinr for the approval of the Pouse. But now that the bill is in from the present administration, J see that the member for Naskaupi (~r. Goudie) is eager to participate and as I want to hear what he has to say.! will now forebear any further comment. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Naskaupi. }~. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, it is my pleasure today also to add my support to the comments from the member for Eagle Piver (Mr. Strachan) and the member for Twillinr,ate (~r. Smallwood), particularly as they relate to this present hill to adopt a mineral emblem for the Province and that mineral heing labradorite. I do not pretend to have any near the amount of knowledf!,e which was expressed hy the han. member for Eagle Piver (Hr. Strachan) • And if the suggestion which one other gentleman made falls through,that the hon. member is sent to Russia to explore the possibilities, I am for that all the way.

AN RON. 1-!E?-fflE:R: With a return ticket? MR. GOTIDIE: Right,with a return ticket, yes, obviously. MR • MlTRPHY : With the Newfoundland and Labrador emblem on it? MR. GOlmiE: I do not know how many hon. members of this House have seen labradorite but I would suspect that most hon. members have. I was just thinking while the comments were being m8de that if hon. !1603

June 2, 1976 Tape 3120 IB-5 l-lll .• GOUDIE: members have not seen that mineral in it's polished state perhaps somethin!( which m.ay be comparable, at least in terms of the colour spectrum would be the delicate tints, if you will, of the Northern J.ights. I am sure that most hon. members have seen that parttcular phenomenon. 9GO~

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3121 Page 1 - mw Mr. Goudie. That, I think, would be some sort of a comparison, although I believe the more common solid colour of Labradorite is blue as opposed to any other particular colour, but there are greens and yellows and so on, which lie within that mineral. I had some very short discussions with the Minister of Industrial and Rural Development, and he has assured me -and I would like to take the opportunity on his behalf more or less if that is permissible - to assure the hon. member from Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan) and any other interested hon. members that that particular department is more than interested in lending any type of assistance to individuals or businesses l~cated particularly within Labrador they will be given every assistance possible in helping to develop the pvoducts which make use or utilize the mineral of lahradorite. It is my pleasure, Mr. Speaker, to support this bill, and I cormnend the administration and the government for this move. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, if I can just say one word on the principle of the bill, and I might be a tiny bit irrelevant, but I will try to be thirty or forty seconds. There is a deposit of ore on the Baie Verte Peninsula, which is classified as virginite· That is not the right technical name for it- which can be used for making various things. It is a kind of semi-precious ore. The only other - MR. SMALLWOOD: It is of the marble family. MR. PECKFORD: It is of the marble family, right. I have seen a number of pieces of this ore in its polished state as well as in its raw state.

There are a number of outcroppings there on the Baie Verte Peninsula. To my knowledge from experts in the field of minerals, there is an outcropping, or there is a known ore body of virginite in Africa, and there is also one in Northern China, but from the records - 9605

June 1, 1976 MR. . STRACHAN : MR.. PECKFORD: Tape no. 312.1 Page 2 - mw Port Hope Simpson. Port Hope Simpson has some? That is the only ones that I know of in the world, and I checked this out a couple of years ago, and it is just interesting that now we are talking about labradorite, and there is also another rare ore available in the Province that can be utilized for - MR. SMALLWOOD: The minister must be aware that in Newfoundland we have a favoured haven in different semi-pre~ious stenes. Mi. PECKFORD : Yes. MR. SMALLWOOD: B~t not all as beautiful as lahradorite or the one that the minister mentioned. MR.

PECKFORD : Right, right! MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The bon. member for Baie Verte- White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I would like to add my support to the principle of this bill to adopt labradorite as the mineral emblem for the Province. I had not intended to speak until the bon. member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) mentioned the virginite. I do not know if he has done any research into it, but I think you will find that it is a kind of]abr~~orite actually,except that it has the green tinge going through it rather than the more predominant blue of the felspar type.

It is a very beautiful mineral and maybe we could think in terms of having a further look at that and having something done with it. But for our part, Sir, we certainly support the principle of this bill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Youne): The hon. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to sav a few words in support of the principle of the bill. I find it a very agreeable idea and command the administration for ehoosing labradorite as the mineral emblem of the Province.

The Minister of Municioal Affairs brings to mind the subject of virginite and perhaps it is the appropriate time just to expand for a moment on the thought that he raised; namely, the commerical possibilities of virginite. 9GOG

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3121 Page 3 - mw _!{R. S~ONS, I was in Ireland on one occasion, and I was presented with a set of cuff links made of what they call over there, Connemara marble, and the retail price of the cuff links - I think the cuff links would command $15 or $20 in our money, and here it w~s just ~ littJe, a very small amount of this marble that had been used for this purpose, and the fixture in which the cuff link was con~ained I would not think would not be that expensive an item.

But here was a case where Connemara marble, which I would think again belonged to the same family as Jahra~orite and virginite - inc!eed ·the virginite which the minister has mentioned I have some bookends, when we were involved with the Green Bay Development Association, we did some experimental work on this and some experimental cutting done, and I have at home a set of bookends made from this virginite. And I compared it with the cuff links. in terms of looking at it, •*d there does not seem to be much difference. I think the r.onnemara from Ireland is probably a slightly lighter green than is the virginite.

Otherwise it has the same visual characteristics which eue normally associates with rocks or stones in the marble family. The stone cutters who looked at the virginite in Green Bay told us that it has the properties required. I do not have again the vocabulary to discuss it at any length, but it has the proper fracture patterns or qualifies - MR. STRACHAN: MR. SIMMONS: MR. STRACHAN: MR. SIMMONS: Schillerization. The term? Probably f'chHlerizatim-._ Yes, exactly. It stands up to cleavage in my vocabulary. But I know that a jeweler at Corner Brook actually, Mr. Speaker, has been using this virginite for some time.

MR. MURPHY: Is that }!r, J>ogers, i.s it? MR. SIMMONS: I think so. I believe that is the name of the jeweler. One of them has been using it,noming in quite regularly. He has been doing it against the law, but that is not for quoting. It is 9607

June , 1976 Tape no. 3121 Page 4 - mw Mr. Simmons. against the law in the sense that a company has a concession on that entire body of virginite MR. PECKFORD: Not all. MR. SIMMONS: Not quite all, eh? I see. And that was a matter of some contention, too. But I did not want to prolong the work of the House, Mr. Speaker, but just to interject that it is perhaps a good time to say once again that we ought to be looking - and I say this to the Minister of Industrial Development - we ought to be taking another very close look at the commerical potential of the rather unique minerals we have here.

Labradorite is certainly one, and it is nne that is coming into its mrn commerically 1 I understand. But virginite i~ another, and it is a very rare one, And as the minister has indicated it has only been identified in three or four parts of the world. I say to the Minister of Rural and Industrial Development I would be happy to talk to him about it, and I believe the Minister of Municipal Affairs has had some firsthand knowledge of it as had my colleague from Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout). And I could refer him, as couln the minister to two or three people in Springdale, including and in particular Mr.

Fred Goudie who is a good friend of the ~inister's,anrl a ~oon frienrl of mine, too, as a matter of fact. Indeed at one time, he wore at least two hats very successfully, the presidency of the P.C. Association in Green Bay, and one of my vice-presidents from the Green Bay Development Association, a tremendous worker and he made a good job of both, and a fellow who knows a lot from a firsthand point of view about minerals, and in particular about this virginite, because he was one of the persons that we involved in doing some of the experimental cutting.

I know'that he went on to investigate it from a commerical stand­ point. They ran into some snags. I do not think it was any fault of theirs, but they did run into some snags from a financial standpoint, I believe. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Are you talking about a heavy financial require~ent? MR. SIMMONS: No, no, no! M 9608

June 2 , 1976 Mi.. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: MR. PECKFORD: MR. SIMMONS: Tape no. 3121 Page 5 - mw Are you talking about a heavy financial requirement? No, no! The amounts? Sorry, the amounts? About $20,000 or $30,000. Yes, there were two or three items of fairly specialized cutting equipment that was required basically, and then polishing it, but there were two items, some kind of a cutter 1 to use a vernacular term 1 and a polisher. That is basically what we were talking about. And obviously a small facility to house it. MR. PECKFORD : The facility is there. MR.

SIMMONS: Yes, really, because these same people have the facility right at the proper - indeed the gentleman I have mentioned is involved - MR. PECKFORD: He is still involved in the lab. MR. SIMMONS: He is still involved in the lab, is he? He is involved in what was the Brinex lab, about two miles outside of Springdale. Anyway •·.dthnut prolonging, 'fr, Speaker. I believe the minister has shown an interest in this and I am glad to see that, because the point needs to be made again and again that perhaps in our unique mineral resources in this Province we can find some commerical possibilities.

It is kind of off the bill, but I just want to say in closing I want to give my whole­ hearted endorsation to ths bill. I am delighted to hear that Ja~ra~orite will be the mineral emblem for the Province. MR. STRACHAN: If I understand this virginite, I never heard it called that, if it is the same green type .of stone as is found in Labrador South and the Port Hope Simpson area - MR. NEARY: Where about is it? MR. STRACHAN: As far as I know it is up behind the hill, further up towards the Rattle behind the hill. Now I have never gone to see it. 9li09

June 2, 1976 Tape no. 3121 Page 6 - 1IW Mr. St:rachan. I never had the time there to go and see it. but I intend to. But it is called green labradorite, but I think frOlll your description that the vir.ginite would be exactly the same. It is a felspar which is high in calciiDil, which gives it a green colour rather than the potash that gives a blue in the case of the Labradorite. So it is essentially the same rock, the same base. MR. PECKFORD: It is hard to h~ar. What do you mean up behind the hill? Is that r:ight behind the settlement? MR. STRACHAN: Yes, up around the Rattle.

Yes, up around the Rattle from the co~nity~behind th~ hill, &ll far as I understand. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Young): The hon. Minister of Industrial and Rural Develooment. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have already communicated, and I will only take sixty seconlls, I have already CDIDIIlunicated to the member who introduced the issue of our willingness to co-operate with anv reasonable people, busi .ness people who have got some credentials, naturally tha,t is a requirement with anybody that we deal with to be of assistance in the seuee of our capability. That is why I raised 9610

June 2, 1976 Tape 3122 IB-1 ¥1'. LllNnFIGAN: the question of the hon. member for Burf>:eo - Bay T1'Espo:lr (Mr. S1.mmons). nur rural c:leveloprnent progr~tmmes enables us to look at Joans and ~rants. Civen certai .n conditions it might amount to $20,000 in loans. Notice,the member, I am saying $20,000. Also in grants, $12,500 ·unless it is a particular type of incl.ustry relating T bel:! eve to Jogging where there is eou1pment :l.nvoJved, we can. actually loo"f- at $30,000. But certainly we do have a smaJ 1 amount of capability to responr1 to any reasonable hus:l ,ness proposi ·t:lon :In this area.

That woulcl presume some lease arrange~ent or grant or ownership of a property that had some k:lnd of deposits of the nature Clescrihed anc'l would also presume that the business people involved would have some market for their product which I thjnk would be easily :lc:lentifiecl. welcome, very much welcome, anybody coming forwarc:l with any reasonable proposal. I have indicated to the member there my desire and my willingness to do this sort of thing. AN HON. ~ffi¥BEF: A good question for Mr.

Pawe. 1-m .• STRACHAN: In any case I know you "'ere out of the House,hut I was talking about a part:l .cul ar group who have no cap:!. tal, who have no deep expertise but who want to get that expertise. I thjnk that vrhat we are talk1nr ahout here is that if we are going to create an industry, for instance, in the community of Nain or in Hopeclale, we are talking of something more than ;lust funding a private organization. I think we are talking of a whole training programme, a whole development programme in developing the market.

So I think we are talkin!!; of more than just the normal grant to a company to get going. Thev do not have that kind of business expert:l.se. That ~rill take a number of years to bu:l.ld. >.ffi.. LTINDJHGAN: ~~r. Speaker, the member is quite r:l ght ahout the number of years to build. I know he was pleased to hear from his public comments of just appointed ~r. ~iFe ~artin,who has broad terms of reference to bring about a particular structure that will be able U61t

JunE' 2, l'l76 Tape 3122 TB-2 ~'R. LTTNDFICAN: -------- ·- to r.esponn to the challenges and also the capabilities and the great potential of the people of his area and the people of the Lahrarlor coast generally. One of the things vr. ~artin is already looking at - and l have read up on it recently myself and I believe the ~inister of "unicipal Affairs and Rousing is conversant Pith this - is the Northern ~anitoba nevelopment Fund - wha.t is it called? :1-!R. PEr.KFORn: North-T,anrl nevelopment. YP..

L'flNDT>IGA..~~ Yes but the p11rticular fund ~rhich addresses itself to the manageMent and the exposure to training and technioue. This particular fund is called the Commnnities 'F.ccmomic nevelopment Fund.,I bel.ieve it il'. As a matter of fact that is what it is called. That is a very exciting programme. I am disappointed to a certain extent that we have not already