Manitoba Hansard — 21 April 2009 (Sitting 28B, 39th Legislature, 3rd Session)

39-3-28b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXI No. 28B - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, April 21, 2009 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon.

Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

855 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, April 21, 2009 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 21–The Labour Mobility Act Hon. Andrew Swan (Minis ter of Competitiveness, Training and Trade): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour and Immigration and Multiculturalism (Ms. Allan), that Bill 21, The Labour Mobility Act;

Loi sur la mobilité de la main- d'oeuvre, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Swan: This bill will allow certified workers from other Canadian jurisdictions to practise their occupations in Manitoba in accordance with

chapter 7, Labour Mobility of the Agreement on Internal Trade. In particul ar, it requires Manitoba regulators to comply with

chapter 7 when workers who are certified for an occupation in another jurisdiction apply to obtain Manitoba certification for that occupation. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 20–The Manitoba Hydro Amendment and Public Utilities Board Amendment Act (Electricity Reliability) Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Bill 20, The Manitoba Hydro Amendment and Public Utilities Board Amendment Act (Electricity Reliability), now be read a first time. Motion presented. Mr.

Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce this bill which formally recognizes Manitoba's participation in North American-wide system of electricity reliability standards. This bill provides for the adoption and enforcement of mandatory reliability standards and for the planning, design and operation of Manitoba's electricity generation and transmission facilities that are part of the integrated electricity grid with other provinces and the United States. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Long-Term Care Facility–Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background for this petition is as follows: Tabor Home Incorporated is a time-expired personal care home in Morden with safety, environmental and space deficiencies. The seniors of Manitoba are valuable members of the community with in creasing health-care needs requiring long-term care. The community of Morden and the surrounding area are experiencing substantial population growth. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to strongly consider giving priority for funding to develop and staff a new 100-bed long-term care facility so that clients are not exposed to unsafe conditions and so that Boundary Trails Health Centre beds remain available for acute-care patients instead of waiting placement clients. This is signed by Sharon Friesen, Karen Wowk, Lisa Banman and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Seven Oaks Hospital–Emergency Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The current Premier (M r. Doer) and the NDP government are reducing emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital. On October 6, 1995, the NDP introduced a matter of urgent public importance that stated that "the ordinary business of the House to be set aside to

856 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the health-care system posed by this government's plans to limit emergency services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals." On December 6, 1995, when the then-PC government suggested it was going to reduce emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital, the NDP leader then asked Premier Gary Filmon to "reverse the horrible decisions of his government and his Minister of Health and reopen our community- based emergency wards." The NDP gave Manitobans the impression that they supported Seven Oaks Hospital having full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Premier of Manitoba consider how important it is to have the Seven Oaks Hospital provide full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

This is signed by D. Ziprick, D. Ziprick, A. Makara and many, many other fine Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ring Dike Road–Ste. Rose du Lac Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: The Ring Dike Road is a well-used gravel road that is used as a secondary road in and out of the community of Ste. Rose du Lac. Given the heavy pattern of use, there is strong interest in the community in seeing the Ring Dike Road upgraded to a paved provincial road.

It would be most cost-effective to upgrade the Ring Dike Road to a provincial road at the same time that upgrades are being undertaken at the junction of Highway 68 and Highway 5. We petition the Legislative Assembly as follows: To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) to consider upgrading the Ring Dike Road at Ste. Rose du Lac into a provincial road; and To request the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation to consider upgrading the Ring Dike Road at the same time that work is being done at the junction of Highway 68 and Highway 5.

This petition is signed by Marcel Vandepoele, Darcy Malcolm, John Cabak and many, many other fine Manitobans. Traffic Signal Installation–PTH 15 and Highway 206 Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: In August 2008, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) stated that traffic volumes at the intersection of PTH 15 and Highway 206 in Dugald exceeded those needed to warrant the installation of traffic signals.

Every school day, up to a thousand students travel through this intersection in Dugald where the lack of traffic signals puts their safety at risk. Thousands of vehicles travel daily through this intersection in Dugald where the lack of traffic signals puts at risk the safety of these citizens. In 2008, there was a 300 percent increase in accidents at this intersection. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation consider the immediate installation of traffic signals at the intersection of PTH 15 and Highway 206 in Dugald.

To request that the Minister of Transportation recognize the value of the lives and well-being of the students and citizens of Manitoba. Signed by Mary Jean Campbell, Cathy McKay, John Devisser and many, many other Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Andrew Swan (Minis ter of Competitiveness, Training and Trade): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased today to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, the 2009-2010 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for the Department of Competitiveness, Training and Trade. Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 857 table the 2009-2010 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation. * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Holocaust Memorial Day Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement for the House. Today, on April 21, we join with people all over the world to observe Yom Hashoah, Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm proud to say on May 1, 2000, Manitoba's Legislative Assembly unanimously passed Bill 19, The Holocaust Memorial Day Act.

This day is dedicated to the memory of the six million Jewish people and the millions of other victims who were murdered in Nazi death camps during World War II. Though the Holocaust took place decades ago on another continent, the names that appear on the monument here on the legislative grounds are evidence of the direct, vital connection that all Manitobans have to this atrocity. There are Holocaust survivors living in our province.

Thousands of Manitobans are relatives of Holocaust victims, and, today, on Yom Hashoah, we remember them and renew our commitment to vigilance against this kind of human rights tragedy. Yom Hashoah keeps us aware of the past inhumanity and injustices that the world has witnessed and also gives us the opportunity to discuss the progress we have made in the human rights arena, as well as the challenges that lie before us. As colleagues and members of an international community, we must continue to work together to ensure that this tragic history is never repeated. Mr.

Speaker, I ask that all members observe a moment of silence in memory of those who suffered and died in the Holocaust. Thank you. Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I thank the minister for the statement, and we concur with the request for a moment of silence to mark this important day in history. Also, our thanks to th e Premier (Mr.

Doer) for the proclamation today read out on the grounds of the Legislative Building on behalf of members of this Assembly, reminding all Manitobans and Canadians of the need to be vigilant in standing up to extreme ideologies that seek to destroy lives in the way that lives were destroyed only 65 years ago in Europe, Mr. Speaker, some six million Jewish people, who lost their lives in the most horrific of circumstances, and many others as a result of an extreme ideology that was allowed to go unchecked for too long. As recently as yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, we heard the comments of an Iranian leader, Ahmadinejad, at the UN commenting on the issue of the Holocaust and implying that it did not occur and that the right of the State of Israel to exist is something that ought not be recognized. When we see these sorts of comments being made in such a forum, we are reminded that the threat that had existed continues to be with us.

We certainly support the decision of Prime Minister Harper, as well as the Obama administration, to not participate in a forum that would contribute to and provide a platform for those who express such views and commend those diplomats who courageously protested those comments yesterday. So we stand with all Manitobans up against these sorts of extreme ideologies and remind ourselves of the need to be vigilant each and every day. We support the request for a moment of silence. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, today, we remember the awful events of the Holocaust, and it's a time to renew our commitment to preventing such human rights tragedies, to preventing and standing up to speak out against any acts of genocide wherever they may happen. We must be vigilant; we must be forceful. Mr. Speaker, I have been fortunate enough to visit the holocaust museum, the one in Jerusalem and the one in Washington, D.C., and I was deeply moved. We must remember and we must be ready to stand up. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Is there agreement for a moment of silence? [Agreed]

858 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 Please rise for a moment of silence. A moment of silence was observed. Provincial Ice Jams and Flooding Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Inter- governmental Affairs): Mr. Speaker, our water levels are gradually declining in the Red River Valley. The Red River watershed is saturated at this time so river levels could change quickly if significant rainfall were to develop in upcoming weeks. The Red River level at James Avenue in Winnipeg this morning was 20.60 feet, a decline of 0.23 feet from yesterday morning. Flood levels in the Pembina Valley are declining.

The levels of the Souris River, however, are beginning to rise rapidly. There is extensive overland flooding that is continuing in the Interlake region, with many roads overtopped or washed out. Today, the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) and I toured the R.M.s of Ritchot and Morris, stopping in the communities of St. Adolphe and Rosenort. We continue to monitor the floodway. We're committed to working with municipalities and individuals affected through disaster financial assistance. Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): I would like to thank the minister for the flood update today.

We are quite aware of the levels of the Souris River continuing to rise. Another place that we are hearing quite a few reports out of is overland flooding in the Interlake. I know in some areas the levels have started to go down a little bit. I want to really pay tribute to all the people that worked so hard in those areas to protect properties and protect people from even more serious damage. It's going to take a little more commitment and a little more work before this whole incident of flooding is over, and I know those people have worked tremendously to improve conditions. Thank you. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his update on the situation and share concerns about the situation on the Souris River valley. It is of particular concern the situation in Peguis and the flooding and the damage to houses that have occurred there and of considerable concern that there does not appear to have been adequate warning at the height of the flood and the level that it reached.

Clearly, this is something that will need to be looked at in more detail and be better prepared for in the future. * (13:50) ORAL QUESTIONS Provincial Debt Increase Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, over the course of the decade of rising revenue that began in 1998, this government increased the debt of the province of Manitoba to a record level. Today it stands at some $22 billion, which represents a debt of $20,000 for every single person in the province, or $80,000 for a family of four.

I want to ask the Premier: Now that we are into an era of declining revenue, does he feel that it was fair to future generations to increase the burden of debt here in Manitoba while others use the good times to pay down their debt? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The member opposite is also including in the number the Hydro debt. I would point out when he was chief of staff the debt equity in Hydro was 86 percent. The books did not include the purchase of the Centra Gas company by the former government, something that we had to put on the books.

We also had to put on the books all the pension liability that was forgotten and swept underneath the table. That has been recognized. That's why we've had four credit upgrades, because the finances, Mr. Speaker, are completely above board. So, Mr. Speaker, we could go on. We've reduced taxes by over a billion dollars through the last 10 years. The corporate tax was 17 percent under the Conservatives. They feigned a lot of interest in taxes. They did nothing, highest in the country; it's now down to 12. They feigned a lot of interest in small business.

The small-business tax was 9 percent; it's now down to 1 percent and going down to zero, the first province in Canada to do that. We have conformed with the Filmon balanced budget legislation every year, according to the Auditor General, and, of course, we have also implemented the recommendations of the Auditor

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 859 General on balanced budgets through GAAP financial accounting, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: As a result of the hard work of previous governments to balance the budget in difficult circumstances, to deal with cuts in transfer payments and to set the groundwork for a growing economy which started in 1998, Mr. Speaker, we had a decade of growth in Manitoba, a decade which they squandered. It was an opportunity to pay down debt.

Instead of paying it down, they increased the debt so that now we are in a position, as revenues decline, where we have more debt in Manitoba than the provinces of Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia combined, here in Manitoba. Does the Premier think that it is sustainable to have increased our debt to the point where we have more debt than Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C. combined, now that we're going into an era of declining revenue? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the facts he alleges are wrong, point No. 1. That doesn't surprise me.

I would recall that three years ago he said there'd be no money left in the rainy day fund in 2009. He was wrong then. Last year he said that we would be beaten by provinces west of us for an inland port. He was wrong then. He said we wouldn't have an internal trade agreement because Québec wouldn't agree to it. He was wrong then. He was wrong then; he's wrong now, and he'll be wrong tomorrow, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr.

Speaker, the way this government has gone out to borrow during good times in order to cover up for its financial mismanagement is something that not even we could have predicted, their creativity at borrowing in order to create the false impression of a healthy financial picture, something that we will confess we weren't able to anticipate, their creativity in fudging the books. On that topic they have claimed, Mr. Speaker, a net debt of $11 billion by using $10 billion in phony deductions when the real number is $22 billion in debt. Why are they hiding the true debt picture from Manitobans? Is it because, Mr.

Speaker, they know that if Manitobans knew the true debt picture, Manitobans would not support this path of unsustainability entered onto by this government? Mr. Doer: The Scotiabank talks about a very, very prolonged period of good governance in the sense of balancing the books and preparing for rainy days. It's helped them a lot–that was the assessment of the Scotiabank. TD Economics said the same thing. CIBC World Markets said the same thing. BMO Capital Markets: a rare show of balance; continued to be a long-term approach to reducing debt equity, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the Province–something that members opposite never dealt with–will continue to tackle its pension liability. I would point out– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We're early into question period. Let's have some decorum here, please. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr. Doer: In 1997, Mr. Speaker, the Auditor General could not attest to the Conservative books. It didn't make a front-page story. It should have been. In 1998, the Auditor General, again, put a note on the financial statement.

The Auditor General of Manitoba has verified our balanced budget under the Filmon balanced budget legislation for eight years, and we will have, again, a balanced budget under GAAP, which includes pension liability. The Auditor General is who the people of Manitoba should listen to, not partisan politics from members opposite, Mr. Speaker. Provincial Debt Repayment Reductions Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, not only does the Minister of Finance have a love affair with debt, but he wants more.

Now he wants to contravene his own legislation, Bill 38, to reduce debt repayments from $110 million per year to $20 million per year. This, by itself, is totally wrong, but what is really wrong is he already shows this change in the 2009-2010 budget. He does not have the legislative authority to do this. Why is he prepared to contravene his own legislation to, in fact, break his own law? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I think the member understands fully that a budget is presented to the Legislature, debated, passed, and, in this case, we have put in the budget things that never existed before: full employer contributions to the civ il servants' and teachers'

860 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 pension fund, $135 million, never done before; full amortization of all the assets that we purchase on behalf of the people of Manitoba, another $135 million–it wasn't done before under the previous government–and, in addition, a $20-million down payment on the general purpose debt. When you put those together, that's $290 million versus the puny $75 million the members opposite put down on liabilities and debt when they were in office, and they buried the pension liability under the table and off the books. Mr. Borotsik: Mr. Speaker,

section 13(2) of Bill 38 speaks very specifically to the fact that there has to be an amount of $110, 495,000 that has to go to pay down the debt. That's in the legislation. I go back to my original question, and that is the legislation that this minister brought to this House and passed in Bill 38. Why is he breaking his law? Why can he not put the $110 million back in the debt repayment like he was supposed to and not a puny $20 million to pay off debt? Mr. Selinger: Mr.

Speaker, the member would have us go back to the '95-96 balanced budget legislation that was condemned within two years by the Auditor General, and for years they said, the members opposite– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. We have rules in the House and members that have the floor have the right to be heard. You don't have to agree with them, but they have the right to be heard. Let's have some decorum, I ask once again. I'm not going to ask too many times, because it's getting really out of hand. Let's have some decorum here. The honourable Minister of Finance has the floor. Mr.

Selinger: Mr. Speaker, I have an announcement for the members opposite. Margaret Thatcher has retired. Mike Harris is no longer in government. George Bush is finished. The world has moved on since the days when they were actually reducing the wealth of Manitobans. The world has moved on since the days when they could buy– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derk ach) and the honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I'm asking for your co-operation, and if I don't get it, there will be consequences because this is getting totally out of hand.

I'm getting a lot of complaints from the public and we're supposed to be setting an example. We need some decorum here. Mr. Selinger: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I simply put on the record that we are now following the full GAAP treatment for recording the budget. It includes everything for the first time in the last couple of years, in history. It includes all the Crown corporations. It includes the public schools. It includes the universities. It includes all the special operating agencies. All of these things are included on the bottom line, as required by the Auditor General of Manitoba.

They have the ability, under our legislation, to tell us whether or not we've balanced the budget, and every year we've been in office we have balanced the budget under the legislative regime that we've been following, including theirs, including the new one recommended by the Auditor General. All the protestations of the members opposite are really an attempt to undermine their own requirement that the Auditor General attest to the soundness of our books. We've attested to it. The Auditor General has agreed with us. Only the members opposite– Mr. Speaker: Order. * (14:00) Mr. Borotsik: I take it, Mr.

Speaker, the Finance Minister didn't quite understand the question. This wasn't about the balanced budget itself, which is not so balanced; it was about the legislation that they passed under not-so-balanced budget legislation and the requirement to retire debt. We now have over $21 billion in debt in the province of Manitoba. If they keep paying it off or not paying it off, Manitobans will take 550 years to pay off the debt based on $20 million. Mr.

Speaker, does this minister have a plan to retire debt or is he just simply going to acquire more debt and let the cards fall where they may and let Manitobans pick up the taxes? Mr. Selinger: Again, Mr. Speaker, the member has completely ignored the pension liability which was $3 billion growing to $8 billion. We now have a plan in place to deal with the pension liability and to make sure it doesn't grow to that level. The members did not have an amortization

schedule for capital assets that we acquired. We now have that in place and it's put on the books every year. We also have

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 861 made over 900-plus million dollars of investments in reducing pension liabilities and general purpose debt. In the budget, it's very clear from the years 2004 until 2008-09 that the debt went down on a net basis every single year. Now, the members are in denial about that. The members are in denial that the appropriate measure for debt is net debt. You take your obligations minus your liquid cash and you put your net debt on– Mr. Speaker: Order. University of Manitoba Pension Performance Report Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): The University of Manitoba pension plan has seen a dramatic decrease in value. Investment performance in the plan has been reported to be worse than anyone has ever seen. I ask the Minister of Advanced Education: Over the past year, how much has the university pension plan declined in value? Hon. Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): I thank the member for a question. Of course, it isn't really a question on Advanced Education; it is a question on pensions at the University of Manitoba.

My information is that the pension will be re-evaluated in December 2009, and at that time we'll be in a position to discuss it more intelligently. Mr. Hawranik: A very simple question: How much has it declined in value? It's a very simple question. I want a simple answer to that question. It's been stated, Mr. Speaker, that with respect to the university pension plan, there's a gap between the amount of money that's available in the plan and the amount of money needed to continue to meet the obligations of the plan, to meet those pension obligations.

Given that there isn't enough money in the plan to continue to meet its obligations, I ask the Minister of Advanced Education: Where is the money to come from to ensure that the retired employees continue to receive their pensions? Ms. McGifford: I thank the member for the question. As the member knows, many pension plans are under siege at this time. As I told him in my first answer, there will be a pension evaluation at the University of Manitoba in December 2009.

At that point, at that time, with information gleaned from that process, we'll be in a position–my understanding at the last evaluation is that the University of Manitoba was in a position of pension solvency. Mr. Hawranik: Since the minister doesn't know, I'll give her the information. It has declined by more than 15 percent in value since last year. Eighty percent of the university's budget is already allocated to salaries and benefits. The rest goes to pay for items like library materials, equipment and operating expenses of the university . The university does not have enough money to close that pension gap.

So I ask the Minister of Advanced Education: Where is the extra money to come from? Will it come from government, from employees, or both? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, we had a similar situation arising from the '95-96 pension plan that was bequeathed to us by members opposite where there was not enough revenue for the benefits, and we went back with all the health employees and renegotiated a more sustainable pension plan. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, the marketplace has had good years, and it had a bad year last year.

We will take a co-operative partnership approach with self-governing institutions like the universities, as we did with bodies like the health institutions in Manitoba. Personal Income Tax Reductions Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, the personal income tax filing deadline is fast approaching for many Manitobans. This is the time of year that Manitobans realize just how much money this government will allow them to keep. One such Manitoban is Ed Nyczai. Mr. Nyczai thought it would be interesting to see what difference it would make if he filed his taxes in another province.

Let's look at our neighbours to the west, for example; Saskatchewan, a former have-not province, which has successfully reduced its debt, by the way. In Saskatchewan, Mr. Nyczai would pay $1,228 less in personal income tax than if he lived in Saskatchewan. I ask the minister: Why has this government refused to allow hardworking Manitobans to keep more of their money? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the member calculates the taxes in Saskatchewan. The Saskatchewan government looked at affordability for living everywhere in

862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 Canada, and they ranked Manitoba No. 1, in Saskatchewan. We didn't ask them to do it. They went and they took an objective look from their perspective, and they ranked Manitoba No. 1 for affordability, taxes included, hydro included, auto insurance included, all costs of living, all relevant costs of living included. Saskatchewan acknowledges we're No. 1. Why can't the member opposite? Mr. Cullen: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister refuses to recognize the difference of 2 percent in PST in Saskatchewan versus Manitoba.

The fact remains a Manitoba family of four with a $60,000 income pays the second-highest income tax in Canada, next to Québec. Now, Mr. Nyczai went on to compare other provinces and, Mr. Speaker, the story gets worse. Mr. Nyczai pays $1,400 more in Manitoba than he would in Ontario, almost $2,600 more than in B.C. Why has the minister reneged on his promise to reduce personal income taxes here in Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, there is $110 million of personal income tax–or tax reductions in the budget this year.

If the member would look at the affordability advantage–I'll give him the page number, E15–a one- earner family of four, at $60,000, the family he references, has the lowest combined taxes and living costs of any province in Canada. Number 1 right here in Manitoba, according to our evidence; No. 1 according to the analysis of the government of Saskatchewan. What's the member's problem? Mr. Cullen: Well, Mr. Speaker, the minister refused to acknowledge the $129 vehicle registration fee that is a direct tax on Manitobans back to this government. This budget is clearly a one-trick pony with no vision for the future.

It appears Manitobans are destined to continue to pay some of the highest personal income taxes in Canada. The provinces of Saskatchewan and New Brunswick have just undertaken an extensive review of their tax regimes. They have laid out both medium- and long-term goals and tax strategies. Mr. Speaker, it appears this minister is flying by his pants, the seat of his pants. Why has he refused to provide Manitobans a concrete plan for Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: You know, Mr. Speaker, for 10 years we've said we'd keep Manitoba one of the most affordable places in Canada. For 10 years we have succeeded.

In every single budget, we have kept Manitoba families of various configurations in the top three for affordability. Why doesn't the member opposite mention the fact that our hydro-electric ity rates are far lower by hundreds of dollars than Saskatchewan, and why doesn't the member mention, for some reason, the fact that we used to have the lowest telephone rates in Manitoba? Now we have the highest. They're still extremely low in Saskatchewan, and that's where they have retained their Crown corporation. Lake Dauphin Fishery Government Report Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Water Stewardship bragged about her conservation closure on the Turtle and Valley rivers for the period April 20 to May 3, yet no conservation closure was placed on the other tributaries of Lake Dauphin, including the Ochre River, Crawford Creek, Crooked Creek, Vermilion River, Wilson River and Mink Creek. Mr. Speaker, will the minister explain why she's relying on a Band-Aid solution rather than doing the right thing and placing a full closure on all the tributaries of Lake Dauphin during the critical spawning season? Half measures are not solutions. * (14:10) Hon.

Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Well, déjà vu all over again, Mr. Speaker. In reading Hansard, he would have gotten the answer. I tried three times yesterday to explain to him that the science that was gathered by the department over the last number of years has shown us that we need to have a closure on the two main tributaries with sustenance fishing for the First Nations people on the remaining tributaries with a limit of six fish per day. That is what the science has told us. We respect the science that comes from the department.

We respect the experts who have spent the last year looking at what is needed to maintain the fishery on Lake Dauphin, and we announced the closure based on their recommendation. Mr. Briese: Yesterday, the minister said it was based on science that she received just last year.

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 863 Now she says, over the last number of years. I wish she'd get her story straight. Mr. Speaker, the minister claims she has a plan to protect Lake Dauphin walleye fishery, yet we have all seen a series of stopgap measures that aren't delivering meaningful results when it comes to restoring the health of the fishery. It's been reported to us that this government has now purchased a truckload of fish fillets and is trying to distribute them to these people in lieu of them taking spawning fish. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister confirm that the department is offering frozen fish to try and encourage fishers not to take spawning fish? Ms. Melnick: Well, in trying to understand that question, first there should be a closure; then there shouldn't be a closure; then we should work with the local community; then we shouldn't work with the local community. Again, I'm going to try for the fifth time now. We announced a closure on the two main tributaries. There is sustenance fishing for First Nations people with a limit of six catches per day.

We do not want to bring hardship upon the people who have traditionally fished, as is their treaty right. We are trying to ensure that we are working in the community so that the people who do need to benefit from what was the First Nati ons fishery over the last number of years, except for this year, are not suffering, Mr. Speaker. We are trying to work with the community, so that people are getting what they need. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, it seems the minister's been caught with her hand in the freezer. People want decisive actions to protect the Lake Dauphin fishery.

Instead, we've seen a series of Band-Aid solutions that include the use of a trap net and a partial conservation closure but no long-term action plan, and now they're handing out frozen fish to try to get people to stop fishing. Mr. Speaker, will the minister finally admit that she has no plan to protect the walleye fishery? Will she now enact a full conservation closure on all the tributaries of Lake Dauphin? Ms. Melnick: Well, the member opposite may want to belittle the closure. He may want to belittle our consultation with the First Nations people.

He may want to belittle the fact that we are not wanting to bring hardship on the people who traditionally fish during this time, as is their treaty right. He may also want to belittle the fact that we've lowered quotas from 750 to 500 pounds. He may also want to belittle the fact that we have cut recreational angling fishers from six to four fish and all the other conservation measures that we've taken. That's because during their time, they did nothing, Mr.

Speaker, and th ey can't stand the fact we're working with First Nations and all the other fishers on Dauphin Lake for a sustainable fishery for this generation of fishers and all the fishers– Mr. Speaker: Order. Highway 355 Upgrade Requirements Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, one can almost anticipate the answer from a minister in this House. Back in the '90s is the way the answer will start, but perhaps the minister of highways will take this issue seriously because it is a serious one.

The residents of Cardale cannot get out of their community without driving through potholes that damage their vehicles. They have a short distance of 11 kilometres to get to Highway 250 in order to be able to access the grain tr ansportation routes, but, Mr. Speaker, the roads are so badly beat up that cars are experiencing extreme da mage when they travel this road. I want to ask the minister of highways whether or not he has any plans to repair this road in the near future since this is not the first time that this issue has been brought to his attention. Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Well, Mr. Speaker, there's 19,000 kilometres of highways in Manitoba, and we've addressed many of them and we'll continue to do so. We do work with the communities and also the local governments to ensure that we get their input into what their needs are and what their priorities are, and that'll certainly continue under this $4-billion 10-year plan that we have. We're really pleased, also, to work with the federal government on the Building Canada Fund, and we'll ensure that many, many roads and bridges are addressed. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I want to focus the minister's attention to Highway 355, 11 kilometres east of Cardale, the only hardtop road that that community has to get out of that community and to

864 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 another community. The other roads around Cardale are all in gravel and in disrepair as well. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask this minister who has heard about this road time and time and time again whether he's prepared to invest some money into this road to allow residents of Cardale to be able to access other roads so they can take their grain and other commodities to market as they should. Mr. Lemieux: I do appreciate the question. I know the MLA for Russell is sincere about the question, as I am in my answer, Mr. Speaker.

We're working with all communities to ensure that the transportation system that they have to use is top quality and, as I mentioned, there are many, many highways that need to be addressed in this province, and we do have a plan set out in doing that. The department has a great deal of input with regard to the priorities in the different regions of the province, Mr. Speaker, and the MLA for Russell knows this. They are certain ly in contact with many of the stakeholders in these different regions. So there is a plan in place, Mr. Speaker, to address the main arterial systems and the national highway system.

These priorities are important to all of us because transportation is an economic enabler, and we're working very, very closely with many agricultural– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Speaker, this road doesn't qualify for a national highway system. This is a short stretch of road, 11 kilometres. Now, I am going to invite the minister to not fly over the area, but perhaps he can get in his vehicle, and I will accompany him.

I'll even offer to drive him over that stretch of road so that he can see first- hand what state of disrepair this road is really in and the fact that residents of the area have gone through all the channels to try to get some action on this road, and they have not been able to get any action from the department. So I'm asking the minister, the head of his department, to make sure that within the plans for this spring, 355 is included, so that the people of Cardale can have an adequate and a standard road to travel in and out of that community, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Lemieux: Members of this side of the House, Mr.

Speaker, don't just fly over communities. We visit communities. We don't just walk into communities and into the coffee shops and strut around and have a cup of coffee and then brag of what they've done, when it's this government that has put millions and millions of dollars into Manitoba's infrastructure, where members opposite did very little in the 1990s, as the member pointed out. Mr. Speaker, not only have I driven there, I believe I played in their ho ckey rink there. I played junior hockey with one of their citizens from that community, so I know the community well.

We're going to work with this community and many, many other communities in Manitoba to improve our infrastructure, and there will be a huge improvement to what has been there in the past. We'll be spending millions upon millions and millions of dollars in the future to make the transportation system the best of anywhere, bar none. * (14:20) Greenhouse Gas Emissions Increase Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my question to the Premier: The Premier has said that he's going to meet the Kyoto targets, yet the report released in the last 24 hours shows that the greenhouse gas production in Manitoba continues to go up and up to the point that it has now reached 13 percent over 1990 levels. Indeed, because the Kyoto target is 6 percent below 1990 levels, Manitoba is now almost 18 percent above the Kyoto targets. Even now, many places that I look, Manitoba is taking actions which will increase instead of decrease greenhouse gases. For example, I learned that Manitoba Hydro, included in the government's

summary budget, has been using old-style cut, slash, pile and burn approaches when clearing for the transmission line between the Wuskwatim and– Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable member's time has expired. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I know the member opposite is still intent on proposing a carbon tax here in the province. I would point out that the cap and trade has been recommended now by most provinces in Canada. It is now being adopted by President Obama in his discussions. I would point out, Mr. Speaker, that I don't think that when he was minister of science, he closed any coal plants down in Canada. We're proud of closing a

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 865 coal plant, in the process of phasing out the second coal plant in this province. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is trying to dodge the question here. Greenhouse gas emissions have gone up and up and up under his watch. The Premier talks in one direction and then he acts in another. When the government has such poor leadership, there is a credibility problem for the Premier and his government. While the Premier has been jaw jawing with people around the contin ent, the greenhouse gases have been going up, up, up here in Manitoba.

Look, when you compare Manitoba to Québec, another province which uses hydro-electric power, the per capita production of greenhouse gases in Manitoba are almost twice the per capita production of greenhouse gases in Québec–not good. Why has the Premier been so ineffective when you compare us to Québ ec and other provinces which have hydro-electric power? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, the holier-than-thou member opposite, I'd ask him whether we've done better than the federal government. When he was a minister of the Crown, the Liberal government was in office–they talk about jaw jawing. They had no plan at all.

We've closed down hydro plants, Mr. Speaker. We have some legitimate challenges. The report indicates agriculture and livestock is one of the challenges we have in Manitoba. I noted that the member opposite voted against the localized capping of agricultural expansion unless they were part of anorexic digesters and other material. So talk about jaw jawing. McPhillips Street Station Casino Presence of Automated Teller Machines Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, gambling addiction is a very serious problem in Manitoba.

In fact, it leads to many divorces, suicides, families that end up in turmoil, dysfunctional families and so forth. At a time in which we would like to see leadership on the issue of addiction from the government, we understand now that the McPhillips Street Casino is, in fact, going to start to have ATM services within the casino itself. At one time, the New Democratic Party opposed that. My question for the government today is: Will they take a position and make it very clear to Manitoba Lotteries that it is not appropriate to allow ATM machines in our casinos in Winnipeg? Hon.

Andrew Swan (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): I thank the Member for Inkster for the question. The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation announced last week that it would be putting ATM machines in McPhillips Street Station. The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has made this decision based on safety concerns. Many patrons of McPhillips Street Station have said they do not feel comfortable leaving the premises, having to walk out to McPhillips Street, around a commercial building and into an ATM located in the hotel next door or other ATMs.

Acting on these safety concerns, the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation has determined that, in the best interests of their customers, they are making this decision. I'm very proud, Mr. Speaker, of the effort that Lotteries makes to deal with responsible gaming. Manitoba Lotteries was the first provincial lotteries corporation to be involved in responsible gaming initiatives. They work closely with the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba and, indeed, advised the Addictions Foundation of Manitoba of this step and made sure– Mr. Speaker: Order.

Canadian Environmental Test Research and Education Center Government Initiative Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Recently, in Thompson, the largest and most advanced cold weather testing and research facility in the world was announced. Research and innovation are catalysts for new business opportunities and job creation, and this project will help generate new education, training and job opportunities in the north. Would the Minister of Competitiveness, Training and Trade please inform the House about this major northern initiative? Hon.

Andrew Swan (Minis ter of Competitiveness, Training and Trade): I want to thank my friend from the north, the Member for Flin Flon, for that question. Manitoba and, indeed, the world's aviation industry will benefit from the development of the global unique Canadian Environmental Test Research and Education Center in Thompson, in the north. This new state-of-the-art cold weather testing

866 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 facility will be created as a joint venture of Rolls Royce and Pratt & Whitney for testing the world's largest and greatest aircraft engines. Manitoba is putting forward a $9-million secured repayable loan which, together with the federal government's investment, will generate more than $40 million in investment in northern Manitoba. Manitoba has a green economy. We're building on it.

We are now seen as leaders in the world, and we're going to use Manitoba's expertise and Manitoba's climate at developing cleaner and more efficient aircraft engines to benefit the entire world, Mr. Speaker. Rural Health-Care Services Wait Times Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, this minister knows that patients in Westman are already waiting weeks or months to see an orthopedic specialist, but that's not the only problem. Because of this government's failure to keep our doctors in rural Manitoba, patients are not getting the care they need after surgery either.

One of my constituents recently had shoulder surgery in Brandon. She had to wait a full month for a follow-up appointment with the specialist, twice as long as it should have been. As a result, she couldn't start physiotherapy until five weeks after the surgery. Because of these delays, my constituent will have to have eight full months of therapy, nearly three times longer in her therapy than if she would have started on time. Can the Minister of Health explain to my constituent why she must pay the price for this NDP's failure? Hon.

Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): We know that reducing wait times is a priority for this government. Indeed, it has been a priority across the nation to bring down wait times and to reduce access. I believe the member knows that when we came into office in 1999 the focus was on lifesaving surgeries. We went from dangerously long wait times for radiation therap y, for example, at six weeks, to now having the shortest wait time in the nation. We also have the shortest wait times for elective cardiac surgery. Then we moved on to quality of life surgeries, including orthopedic surgery.

We've significantly brought down those wait times. I'm very pleased to work with the member on issues concerning a specific constituent to see if we can improve that situation the best way that we can, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Rowat: My constituent did indicate that they can't do anything for his wife and the minister would probably be saying, we can maybe look at her situation. It's too late, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, what this minister has said is that she cannot–what this minister knows is she cannot keep doctors in rural Manitoba.

She's had 10 years and she has more than doubled the health-care budget, but she still can't keep her Premier's (Mr. Doer) promise to fix health care. Patients like my constituent deserve better. When they finally get the surgery they need, they should get top-notch care. Instead, just when they think they're finally getting the help that they need, they're put on another wait list. My constituent wants answers. Can the Minister of Health explain to her why she didn't get the care she needed when she needed it? Ms. Oswald: Again, Mr.

Speaker, improving access to physician services and to increasing our supply of nurses is very important to us and to all Manitobans. We know that we have seen a net gain of physicians to the province of Manitoba every year since coming into office. It's worthwhile to note, Mr. Speaker, that there was a net loss, a net loss of doctors every year or virtually every year during the '90s when the members opposite were making decisions like cutting spaces in medical school.

I also think it's worthwhile to note that the independent data provided by Manitoba's nursing colleges this week tells us that we had a net gain of 245 nurses last year. That's a total net increase of over 2,000. That means that for every thousand they fired, we hired two back. * (14:30) Provincial Road 340 Upgrade Requirements Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation. Now, contrary to the Member for Emerson (Mr. Graydon), I actually have a bridge but no road. Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm referri ng to Provincial Road

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 867 340 between Canadian Forces Base Shilo and Wawanesa. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has been a bridge over the Assiniboine River for quite some time now. I would invite the Minister of Transportation to come out, bring his fishing rod when fishing season opens, and we'll catch some walleye. I ask him: There's a 13-kilometre stretch of road that has not been paved. I'm wondering if the minister is considering making a permanent investment in this particular stretch of road. Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Well, I thought that fishing season may have started. He's fishing for more cash but, yet, votes against our budget. Mr. Speaker, you know, if it's not this road, it's that road. If it's not that bridge, it's this bridge, but yet they vote against the budget every single year. Go around to the coffee shops and say that. You know, Mr. Speaker, this is a very important road; we know this. We've had many discussions and we continue to do so on how to best address this particular stretch of road.

I'll continue to work with the MLA to see that this will happen in the future. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Jaring Timmerman Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): I would like to put a few words on the record today about Mr. Jaring Timmerman, a centenarian who has enjoyed some extraordinary athletic accomplishments as of late. This past Saturday, Mr. Timmerman, who just celebrated his 100th birthday on February 11, broke three world records while competing in the Manitoba Masters Swimming Championship in the 100-to-104 age category.

He set records in the 50-metre and 100-metre freestyle events as well as the 50-metre backstroke. Mr. Timmerman has been a significant presence on the competitive swim scene for some time. He has won so many medals at the World Masters Games and other events that he has started to give his medals to his family and friends as he has lost count of how many he has won. Next month, Mr. Timmerman will travel to Etobicoke, Ontario, to compete in the Canadian Masters Championship. In order to stay active, Mr. Timmerman swims laps almost every day.

He believes that the key to his longevity is a combination of good genes, healthy eating, exercise and smart living. Mr. Timmerman has such a passion for the sport he believes in that he says he will never stop swimming. Others have noticed his enthusiasm and dedication to his sport. He's been an inspiration to everyone around him and has been, recently, the CTV Sport Star of the Week. His positive example undoubtedly has inspired others to stay active regardless of their age. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the entire Progressive Conservative caucus, I would like to congratulate Jaring Timmerman on breaking three world records at the Manitoba Masters Swimming Championship on Saturday. I would also like to proudly point out that Mr. Timmerman happens to be the oldest member of the Progressive Conservative Party, and as leader of the party, I'd like to thank him for being a proud Progressive Conservative. Thank you. Manitoba Citizens on Patrol Conference Ms. Marilyn Brick (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak about an event I attended on April 18.

The 2009 Manitoba Citizens on Patrol conference was held this past weekend. I attended on behalf of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chomiak), to proclaim the week of April 19 to 25 as Manitoba Citizens on Patrol Week. The Citizens on Patrol Program, or COPP, is a group of law enforcement volunteers dedicated to building safer communities. COPP mobilizes citizens throughout Manitoba to participate in community- based crime prevention in co-operation with local law enforcement agencies. The program began in Manitoba in 1991, initially guided by local law enforcement.

In March 2001, Manitoba Public Insurance partnered with Manitoba Justice to improve support and networking opportunities for COPP groups throughout the province. There are now more than 65 COPP groups in Manitoba, with nearly 1,700 volunteers. Their approach to crime fighting focusses on deterrence, education and awareness. Thanks to COPP, missing persons have been found, stolen cars have been recovered and criminal activities have been investigated. When I think of COPP, I think of people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and get down to work.

I think of community-minded people who want to make a difference. I think of people who are willing to volunteer their personal time to improve the personal safety and property of their neighbours.

868 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 Two dedicated individuals were recognized at this year's conference: Constable Stacey Gervin received the Law Enforcem ent Service Award, and Mr. Jack Slessor received the Lifetime Membership Award. Mr. Speaker, community volunteerism is one of the things that makes Manitoba great. I would ask all members of this House to join me in congratulating Manitoba Citizens on Patrol for another successful conference, staff of MPI fo r their assistance and to recognize these volunteers for all that they do to make our province a better place. Thank you.

Holocaust Memorial Day Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Today, on Yom Hashoah, Holocaust Memorial Day, we honour those who perished in the senseless act of terrorism that took place in Nazi concentration camps in World War II. Mr. Speaker, I had the opportunity to be there to read names of individuals this morning, as well as in the afternoon attend a service in front of the Holocaust Memorial on the lawn of the Legislative Building, the annual public commemorative service entitled, We Remember Our Past, We Trust in the Future. Mr.

Speaker, unto every person there is a name, and with each name there is a heartbreaking story. Among those who read the names of lives lost this morning was my constituent, Arnold Frieman. He is a Holocaust survivor who lost his family to Nazis' atrocities. His personal experiences and courage are moving to me and to members of our community. As a teenager in Hungary, Mr. Frieman survived the ravages of the Nazis' regime, but his parents, siblings and extended family, sadly, did not. After escaping Hungary and travelling to Norway, Mr. Frieman went on to bravely serve in the Israeli War of Independence.

He later settled in Winnipeg where he overcame the great sorrows of his past to become a dedicated family man, entrepreneur and local leader. Mr. Speaker, in honour of Mr.

Frieman, and of the millions of Jews who lost their lives in this senseless act of terrorism, I'd like to read into the record the poem, "Unto Every Person There is a Name." This verse expresses what we must hold true: Unto Every Person There is a Name / bestowed upon him by God / and given to him by his father and mother. / Unto Every Person There is a Name / accorded him by his stature / and the manner of his smile / and given him by his style of dress. / Unto Every Person There is a Name / conferred on him by the mountains / and given him by his neighbours. / Unto Every Person There is a Name / assigned him by his sins / and given him by his yearnings. / Unto Every Person There is a Name / given to him by his enemies / and given him by his love. / Unto Every Person There is a Name / derived from his festivals / and given him by his labour. / Unto Every Person There is a Name / presented him by the seasons / and given him by his blindness. / Unto Every Person There is a Name.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Doug and Cheryl Slater Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak about two of my constituents, Doug and Cheryl Slater. Doug is an accomplished fisherman and entrepreneur. He was born in The Pas in 1929 and has lived in Flin Flon for 75 of his 80 years. He worked for Hudson Bay Mining & Smelting Company from 1948 to 1965, and again from 1970 until his retirement in 1993. Since 1949, Doug has caught well over 100 master angler trout and written several articles on lake trout fishing.

He and Cheryl have many trophy fish hanging on display in the Flin Flon airport. In July 1967, Doug caught the largest fish ever to be mounted out of Little or Big Athapap. It was 51 inches. It hung at Paradise Lodge for 41 years until it deteriorated, but a new replica will soon be on display at the Flin Flon Wal-Mart. Cheryl is a master angler many times over. When it comes to fishing, she usually waits for Doug to catch up. She graduated with honours in 1985 and also worked at HBM&S. Together they raised a family and ran a business.

In the mid-1980s, they made a special trip to Winnipeg to show Conservation officials the proper way to debone Northern Pike. Previously, the Manitoba fishing guide had recommended cutting off the whole back of the fish, but Doug and Cheryl demonstrated how to properly cut out the Y-bone and the bones in the tail without hurting the fillet. With all his fishing experience, Doug was able to successfully design and patent his own lure or treble hook jig in 1975. It is called the Slater Lure and has been on the market for 34 years. Besides being a fisherman, Doug was also an accomplished water-skier.

He ran the Flin Flon water-skiing club from 1950 until 1964. The club

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 869 held an annual water-skiing show that included pyramids, ski jumping and kite flying. In 1956, Doug was the first person in Canada to build and fly a water-skiing kite, which is now on display in the Selkirk Marine Museum. Mr. Speaker, it never ceases to amaze me how many creative and innovative people reside in my constituency, wonderful people like Doug and Cheryl Slater. Thank you. * (14:40) Grant and Colleen Dyck Mr.

Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I rise today to congratulate my constituents, Grant and Colleen Dyck, on becoming Manitoba's Outstanding Young Farmers for the year 2009. Grant and Colleen operate Artel Farms in Niverville, Manitoba, which consists of a 13,000-acre grain and oilseed enterprise. Along with the grain farm, the couple owns a business which reclaims and recycles wood, and Colleen has started a business producing value-added energy bars using ingredients from their farm.

As Manitoba's Outstanding Young Farmers, Grant and Colleen have b een recognized for their progress in agriculture, financial management practices, production history, environmental stewardship and for their contributions to the well- being of their community, Niverville. Their passion for farming, strong work ethic and entrepreneurial spirit have enabled them to be extremely successful in each of their endeavours and important contributors to their community. Grant and Colleen are also skilled in turning challenges into opportunities.

Such is the case for their reclaimed wood business, which reclaims landfill-diverted Dutch elm diseased trees in Winnipeg and turns them into flooring. They also use maple from CN rail boxes and grain elevator beams for making furniture. Canada's Outstanding Young Farmers Program is designed to recognize farm couples that exemplify excellence in their profession. We wish Grant and Colleen well as they have been selected for the Manitoba contingent that will go on to represent our province and our region at the national awards program in Ottawa this coming December. Mr.

Speaker, I would again like to congratulate Grant and Colleen on their remarkable achievement in receiving this special recognition. They are innovative, spirited and their love for agriculture is evident in their success. They are truly excellent role models for young farmers across the province and across our country. Thank you. House Business Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on House business? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Yes, on House business, Mr. Speaker.

Pursuant to rule 31(8), I'm announcing that the private members' resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable Member for Southdale (Ms. Selby). The title of the resolution is Daycares–Early Childhood Family Support. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Pursuant to rule 31(8), it's been announced that the private members' resolution to be considered next Tuesday will be one put forward by the honourable Member for Southdale. The title of the resolution is Daycares–Early Childhood Family Support. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): I ask that we resolve the House into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: The House will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Would the Chairs go the appropriate rooms that they will be chairing, please. In the Chamber will be Executive Council; Room 255 will be Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives; and Room 254 will be Justice. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (15:00) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice.

870 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 As had been previously agreed, questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner. The floor is now open for questions. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Yesterday we were talking about Crown cautions, and I understand now that the department does keep a record of Crown cautions. I'm wondering if the minister could provide us the numbers for Crown cautions, especially if you can put in some sort of a time period of a few years. Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): As I understand it, the Crown caution information is not kept for statistical purposes; it's kept for the purposes of the particular individual that's under the particular charging regime or prosecution regime, so we don't have like a percentage of how many Crown cautions–we don't have that data in that form available. Mr.

Lamoureux: When it comes time for government setting policy in dealing with young offenders–even earlier than young offenders–I would think that there's a requirement to have a fairly accurate sense of what sort of criminal activity or minor offences that are taking place. Is that not a fair assessment? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, for both the process of judicial interim release and for the process of sentencing and for the very process of dealing with an individual, a record of activities of that individual is very important and it deals with a whole series of factors related to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. Mr.

Lamoureux: In developing programs like the Lighthouse program and others–there's all sorts of departments that provide different funding for community centres and so forth–one would suspect that there is a need to have a fairly good understanding of what types of activities our young people are dealing in. Some of those activities would be of a criminal nature potentially. Do you not agree? Mr.

Chomiak: I think a more relevant index would be the poverty index or a social services index that would relate to the kind of community and the kind of environment that surrounds particular individuals would probably be more realistic understanding of what the causality are and the factors are with respect to criminal behaviour. Mr. Lamoureux: I don't want to spend too much time on this particular point. You know, one of the issues over the last number of years has been the issue of automobile theft, and we'll use that as an example.

You know, a few years ago, there were some 300–between 200 to 300 high-risk offenders that were identified, and because we were able to acknowledge and identify thes e individuals, special policy was developed, and it had a fairly dramatic impact on the number of vehicles being stolen. I think that that was one of the benefits of having a good understanding of the problem and who's causing the problem. The question I would have is–because the minister often makes reference to it during question period–the percentage of decrease in automobile theft.

I know that it was spiked–a huge high, somewhere around 13,000; I think it was in 2004, maybe 2003–and since then it has gone down. Can the minister provide what the average would have been in the '90s in terms of the number of vehicles being stolen? Mr. Chomiak: Yes, I'll provide the member with that information. Just two quick points on this. In the '90s, within a very short period of time in the constituency in which I was elected to represent, there were two people killed as a result of auto theft in the mid-'90s, which was horrific.

The benefit of the specific action that was taken, that took place and that our government directed towards auto theft, was informative, and we intend to use that model across other realms of activity. The important factor was determining the perpetrators, the reason for, et cetera, and we were able to identify, contrary to what public perception might have been, as to what motivated these individuals to be stealing autos. That's one of the reasons why we've been able to reduce the auto theft rate by 64 percent.

With respect to specific offenders, the member's point is well taken in terms of identifying particular perpetrators in dealing with the causality factor. Overall, the point I made earlier with respect to the poverty and the related index, it's probably more indicative of overall difficulties that are going to be incurred by a population, be it health or whatever, generally is based on those socio-economic factors. Mr. Lamoureux: I did want again to comment on the issue of car theft, only because it's one of those issues which attracts a great deal of public attention.

And this is why I had asked in terms of the breakdown and what happened in the '90s, when the minister makes reference to that substantial decrease

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 871 in automobile thefts, he's really talking about that years of 2003-2004. My understanding is, in the mid- '90s, late '90s, that it was substantially less. That's why it would be interesting to actually see some of the numbers. I don't believe, for example, that, in the '90s, it ever exceeded 8,000 vehicles being stolen. I could be wrong on that, and that's why there would be some benefit, in terms of hearing the numbers. If the minister would like, he can comment on that. Otherwise, I'll just move on to my final item. Mr.

Chomiak: I think the overall conclusion is that, until we took specific, dedicated action to deal with the particular problem, it would have gone unresolved. It was allowed to grow and, only when we put concerted effort into it, concerted resources into it, were we able to reduce it to levels that were comparable–in fact, that were some of the best in 20 years. I think, overall, the strategy that, if you identify and put resources into a particular problem and work on it aggressively and with using the continuum, that you can reduce particular types of offences. I think that applies.

Left unchecked, it would have continued to grow. Fortunately, we put in a concerted effort and concerted resources to deal with it. We intend to take that model and use it in other aspects of criminal and social activity. But the fundamental issue, if one is to talk to criminologists and others, is the fundamental factors that result in antisocial behaviour, is related to socio-economic factors. * (15:10) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chair, I guess I would use this just to conclude.

The minister is starting to actually make the point that I was hoping to try to get across and that is that, you see, the more that you have a good, comprehensive understanding of a situation, i.e., the automobile theft issue, you're able to come up with proactive policy that can really have an impact.

I think that if you can ask many of our constituents they would indicate that they are concerned about the different types of–one could call minor crimes, but you know , all crimes are crimes, but the overall feeling that I get is that people are feeling uneasy with the types of crimes that are occurring in the community in the sense that the government doesn't seem to be doing anything to address that issue. That's why yesterday we started talking about cautions and what happens if little Johnny gets caught stealing a CD, and quite often there is no real consequence.

I would argue that that's sadly the case more often than we probably think or would acknowledge at this particular table, but it's important for us to understand some of those numbers even though those numbers are not being recorded or reported on. There is a great deal of theft. You will get some of the larger stores, for example, that will no longer contact the police because they deem it's in their best interest just to take care of it locally. Well, a number of years ago that wouldn't have been the case. There would have been some reporting.

So I think that we're missing the boat if we don't try to get a better understanding of the types and the amounts of crimes that are, in fact, taking place, because I believe it would ultimately help us in providing the programming that's necessary in order to combat some of the causes of crime. That's the reason why I raised it in the fashion that I did. I also personally believe–and as the minister knows, I was with the Justice Committee– that, ultimately, for any given crime, there needs and must be a consequence.

I find more than ever that we're starting to lose the consequence in many minor crimes that are taking place. That does offend me and I believe offends a great number of people that we all represent. Thank you for the time, and I appreciate the Member for Steinbach affording me the opportunity to ask questions at this time. Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): I appreciate the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), as he always does, taking an interest in community safety issues.

I know he's a strong advocate for those issues in his community and appreciate the work that he does in his community on these and other issues that are important to his residents. Just to follow up on a couple of his questions. I mean, I was going more schematic in terms of questions, but just to follow up on the member going through his points. I think it was three years ago in Estimates, I'd asked for the–it was either in Estimates or in another forum–but I had asked for the Crown cautions and I received the answer from the department. It was a former minister who provided that information.

So has there been a change in the last couple of years in terms of how this information is put together, or did the former minister just, you know,

872 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 go out of his way to provide the information at that time? Mr. Chomiak: Between the requests that come from FIPPA and the requests that come from the media and the various statistical analyses being done across the country now, there's information that's put together routinely. There's information that put together requests. There's information that's utilized for internal programming purposes, and there's information that's provided publicly, and we try to provide as much information as we can from the–but there's some danger sometimes.

There's some danger sometimes in extrapolating information. If one takes a direct–it depends on how one interprets it. If one were to say–the Member for Inkster said that there should be consequences for every offence. One could argue that where has the member been over the past years when a former minister and myself passed on all of these messages to Ottawa with respect to the Criminal Code and the Youth Criminal Justice Act that required changing to have more consequences. So it's sometimes difficult to ascertain and to make the direct connection.

I agree that, in fact, statistical data is informative and helpful, but, on occasion, if it gets misinterpreted, it often gives an inappropriate picture of actually what's happening on the ground. So, to get back to the point, I don't think we collect the data on the Crown cautions on a regular basis, and if it was provided to the member previously, I suppose we could undertake to try to accumulate the data for this year. But, every time we do that, it does take some of our Crown prosecutors and other people away from other activities. But this is an important committee.

If people want that information, we'll provide it. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the member for that commitment, and because my friend from Inkster also asked for that information, I can either provide it to him as well or I can share it with him, whatever you prefer. But I do think that the information is important. The minister was asking sort of where–and I wasn't looking outside. If he can forgive me, I'm not sure if he was talking to me or the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) on where we've been on issues about the Youth Criminal Justice Act and other initiatives from Ottawa.

I can provide to him more news releases that he'll want to read, that I've said, yes, there needs to be changes to the Youth Criminal Justice Act and other issues like two-for-one and things that we've talked about. So I don't want him to leave on the record any indication that I may not have been supportive of those federal changes. I wasn't sure whom he was looking at, and I'll leave the Member for Inkster to defend his own record on that if it wasn't directed at me.

Is there a listing of alte rnative programs, then, or alternative measures that the department has that they can refer young offenders to when they're not allowed, under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, to go to a court sanction? Mr. Chomiak: I've just Blackberried up some numbers, and I have some numbers in front of me on another matter, so I'll try to do a couple of things at once. There are currently 47 justice committees and four paid agencies that do case diversions. The four agencies are Mediation Services, Onashowewin Mediation Services and Northern Restorative Justice.

We also work with MKO and the north and southern Chiefs to create justice committees in their communities, and the MMF will be creating a community justice worker to support Métis people where cases can be diverted. Case diversion can take several routes. The police, at their discretion, can issue a caution or warning for first-time minor offences. Justice has worked with the police on areas of concern to have youth involved in certain types of offences, such as joy-riding, referred to a community justice program as opposed to a warning.

If police do not decide to issue a warning, the Crown can also caution, as has already been indicated. The Crown can also decide to divert the case to one of the agencies or a local committee. The agency or committee will then decide how to manage the case and report back to the Crown on the results. Every effort is made to involve the victim in case resolutions. The auto theft numbers that I have: 1994–8,541; '95–8,733; '96–9,449; '97–9,914; '98–9,013; '99– 9,385; 2000–10,496; 2001–12,056; 2002–11,093; 2003–12,039; 2004–16,213 province-wide; 2005– 13,991; 2006–16,986; 2007–14,594; 2008–8,662.

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 873 So the 2008 numbers are now back to the 1994 numbers. * (15:20) Mr. Goertzen: I'll review Hansard and see. I wasn't sort of keeping up. I know the minister can do more than one thing at one time. I've seen that in the past, so that's fine. The minister refers to, then, a number of Justice programs, Justice committees that they can be used for alternative measures. But I'm still unclear on maybe what the end result of that is, what the Justice committees or what the pr ograms are actually then asking these young offenders to do as their consequence.

I think, in this accord, I and the Member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) are on the same page in that we've talked about our party, about meaningful but measured consequences for all actions. I mentioned that I don't think that people who are shoplifting for a first time should be occupying a cell at the Manitoba Youth Centre, but I do think that there should be some meaningful but measured consequence.

So, you know, it's probably not easy because there might be a variety of different means, and maybe there's a lot of flexibility in the programs and the Justice committees in terms of what alternative measures are applied. But can the minister give a range of the sort of things that these young offenders might be doing or asked to do? Mr. Chomiak: The common consequences are restitution, community service, attending programming or working with the victim. Those are the four major community-related consequences. Mr. Goertzen: Would that be similar to other jurisdictions?

I know some provinces, when I have checked on the Internet, will actually list a variety of different alternative measur es that they've set out under their Youth Criminal Justice Act requirements to fulfil. Would those be sort of similar to what might happen in other provinces? Are they more extensive, less extensive, about the same? Mr. Chomiak: I am advised by the department that it would be about the same, and part of the difficulties–I was trained under the original Youth Justice Act a long time ago and–no, we just came out of the Juvenile Delinquents Act. I do get confused sometimes.

But I'm advised that it's generally the same here as in other jurisdictions. Mr. Goertzen: Then, just because we're sort of talking about measures, and I know the switch is more to the adult side, but, on the parole side, the parole officers that you currently have in place, do you know what their average caseload is? I mean, this is sort of a typical question that we ask, and I don't know that it's changed much over the years, but do you have the caseloads for parole officers? Mr.

Chomiak: We don't have that with us today, but we'll provide that information, recognizing that in something like the Spotlight program you'd have more intensive work, and then it varies across the board and across the issues. But I will try to provide that information. Mr. Goertzen: That's fine, I appreciate that. You know, one of the things that–I just want to harken back a bit to the point the minister was making a couple of questions ago. I know he's sensitive about, you know, releasing information and some of that, as we've discov ered, is a security issue. I certainly understand that.

Nobody wants to put anybody working in Justice at risk and so those are valid comments. We get a little bit more concerned, you know, when the minister says that he doesn't want to release information because of how it might be interpreted because ultimately I think the public has to decide what that information means and how valuable it is. We saw reports from Statistics Canada today, and so people can–those statistics get put out there, people can interpret them, and there might be logical explanations for all sorts of statistics we get. They get released and may not be a negative reflection.

So, I think that sometimes I worry–and I'll use this example, and I'm going to ask about parole breaches. I use this example because I've talked to parole officers, some current and some former parole officers, who've told me that they have a number of their own sort of breaches, people who aren't reporting, but they don't have a collective number in the department at any given one time of how many people have breached. In response to the question that I asked this particular officer about why that number wasn’t there, it wasn't because they didn't believe, it wasn't because it was difficult to obtain.

They said they could report the breaches every day at the end of the day and ever y officer, I guess, could do the same and it could be quickly tabulated, but they thought that that might not, sort of, reflect well.

874 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 They didn't say that, you know, the minister had told them not to report it or anything like that, so I don't want to leave that allegation out there. But I guess sometimes there's just a concern that it would be easy to tabulate the information, but if you don't tabulate it, then when somebody asks for it, you can say, well, we don't keep it in that form, or we don't have those sorts of records.

So that was a concern that this particular parole officer expressed to me: that it wasn't that they didn't have their own information on breaches, and it wasn't that it couldn’t be easily tabulated; it's just that nobody ever asked for it, and they didn't think they would actually be asked for it because it may not reflect well overall. And I wouldn't want the minister to use that sort of a strategy, and I'm not suggesting he is.

But I guess the question I'd like to know is: Can I get a tabulation of the current breaches that parole officers have, wh ether that's calculated monthly, daily, yearly, in whatever form it's tabulated, particularly if it's not difficult to come by? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the comment I was making was editorial and actually the member inadvertently made my point, because parole is federal, probation is–that was the point I was trying to make; that was not meant as a–it was an editorial about confusion sometimes between, for example, the narcotics, the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, and the fact that it's federally prosecuted, versus Criminal Code offences that are provincially prosecuted and then you cross reference and you may not get specific–so that was the point that I was trying to make, is an extrapolation sometime on one-to-one.

I think the member appreciates that. That was the editorial comment I was making. I don't have any difficulty except for security which I'm quite paranoid about. I think the member recognizes that. I don't have any difficulty providing information, but the member acknowledges that sometimes even the very terminology we use can confuse the case in point. Now, the member was looking for information on? Mr. Goertzen: Sorry. Probation breaches. I think I was harkening back to a different job I used to have a few years ago and got confused about that. So, probation. Mr.

Chomiak: On probation, we don't have an overall record of–we deal with the individual cases, and case management has actually been introduced in the department of Prosecutions, and I think it's right across the system, essentially. It's case management of a particular individual, be they in custody or not in custody or, in fact, facing charges. So, overall, we don't keep that record. Mr. Goertzen: Okay, then, so I'll just return to the other point, even though I was using the wrong terminology.

When I was talking to a current or former provincial probation officer, they were suggesting that they know on a day-to-day basis how many breaches they have and that it wouldn't be difficult, if anybody would ask, to get the total number, because it would simply go to the probation officers across the system and get that number. So is it possible to get the total number of probation breaches that are currently in the system? Mr. Chomiak: I don't think we have that in a cumulative way. Part of the issue, I think, is related to the individuals and the particular circumstances in which they're in.

For example, if you're to deal with– let's take something that's current–the auto theft breach-of-probation issue. I'm not sure if, depending on the individual circumstances of an individual, I'm extrapolating, and the assist ant deputy minister will acknowledge if I'm wrong. I suspect that not in every case that a probation is breached will they necessarily invoke a judicial sanction.

It might depend on–there are so many circumstances that are related to the particular case and individual in point that it's a decision based on the individual probation officer and the particular regime that's in place. * (15:30) Now, having said that, overall, it would be taken more seriously in the case of an auto theft perpetrator who's been breached or w ho's been many times in difficulty. So it's an individual file based on the circumstances. There's a risk level that's attached to individuals. There are standards that are applied.

Then that discretion is utilized by the probation officer to deal with the particular individual. Mr. Goertzen: I'm not sure if the minister isn't understanding–I may not be explaining myself properly, or I may, and we're just going around on this. But, at the end of the day, the way it was explained to me by a probation officer in Manitoba, they know how many people that they're responsible for that are in breach– whether it would warrant a judicial sanction or not–that they, individually, know how many people that they're responsible for that are in breach. Is that correct, or do they not know?

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 875 Mr. Chomiak: Yes. Mr. Goertzen: Okay, thank you. I appreciate the answer. So is it not possible then to go to the provincial probation officers and ask them, at the end of a day or a month or a quarter, and ask them how many people they have in breach, and have a total. I don't want to grind the Department of Justice to a halt. It's just that it doesn't seem that it would be that difficult. Mr. Chomiak: Anything's possible, but it would not tell us anything significant that's required to be known about the individual that's under the particular orders.

It's not of relevance to the department to have that particular statistic. What is relevant is what is happening on the individual case file as it works its way through the system. That's the relevant issue that applies within the system. That's all I can say. Mr. Goertzen: All right, so I'm not going to accept the fact that it might not be useful information, but let's assume it is, that's it's not helpful information, but it's also not difficult information to put together.

So I'm just asking if the minister could provide, whether it's for today or next week, just a one-day snapshot on the number of breaches that exist with probation officers. We can have a further debate about the value of the information. Mr. Chomiak: Again, I don't want to be difficult, but a breach may not be a judicial or a criminal sanction. A breach may simply be a condition, partially met or not met, and there's no sanction and no charge laid, for example, or it may get staid or it may be–the probation officers have the discretion to make judgmental decisions with respect to the individual cases. Mr.

Goertzen: I accept that, that each case is going to have its own value and its own reasons. Some might be significant and some might be very insignificant. Just asking, because the minister acknowledged and the probation officer acknowledged that, at the end of the day, they know how many breaches, important or not–I guess they're all important but, you know–warranting other sanctions or not, that they have. The minister indicated that it could be possible to simply tally those up at the end of a day. I'm just asking if he'll do that for me.

He can explain why it's insignificant, but can we just simply get that data? Mr. Chomiak: Breach is a legal term. So breach is an allegation that a conditi on imposed by a court has not been complied with, an d, therefore, can or cannot, depending on the circumstances, bring the offender back before the court. Mr. Goertzen: I think I would try for three years to try to get this information. I don't think I'm getting any more success than in the prior three years and again, I mean, this is from somebody who either was or is working within the system and said this is very easy information to obtain.

We can debate the value of it. I think I get the point: the minister is not going to provide it. He's not going to ask that it be put together. Mr. Chomiak: I'm advised by officials that it's not kept. It would be difficult to obtain and difficult to actually ascertain specifically what is being sought after. I'm not trying to be lawyer-like, but–a client comes in and says, I wasn't supposed to be out after 4 o'clock, but I'm out after 4 o'clock to meet.

Is that a breach of my probation when I'm–you know, and I say, well, I'd phone the probation officer and say, well he came in to meet–you know, there are varying circumstances. I don't think that we can provide that information on a legal, consistent basis that would provide the kind of information the member is looking for. Mr. Goertzen: Well, I think if the probation officer registers them in breach, then that's the number we're looking for, but re gardless. I know that the minister doesn't feel it's viable information and we can have that.

I think we might disagree on that, and I don't think I'm going to be getting any further because I can't make him produce the information even if others working on the front lines of that feel that the information is easy to obtain and they individually can tell me at any given time what their breaches are. I guess I could extrapolate that, but again the value of that information we can have that debate about.

I did say that we were going to talk about recidivism, so I want to sort of get back on track of that because who knows we might be in these Estimates for weeks, and I don't want to be missing out some of these points. The most recent data that the department did collect and provide, and I appreciate it, is on recidivism rates for the adult prison population, the youth population. I'm not sure what–I think it's collected quarterly. What's the most recent data that the department has and could they provide that? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the most recent data that we have on adult recidivism goes back to December '06, and the definition used in Manitoba is

876 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 two years post conclusion of your sentence, which is the most aggressive recidivism rate that we're aware of and there's no national comparison. Mr. Goertzen: Right from the mouth of the experts, so that's good to know. I appreciate that there are different standards. I realize that, and I think sort of that whatever standard you'd use, our recidivism rates seem quite high. You might compare them and say, well, but they measure three years in a different jurisdiction when, you know, their jurisdiction is bad too.

I mean the reality is that our recidivism rates just seem very high. Is there a goal? I'm reluctant to ask the question because I'm sure the minister is going to say that his goal is zero recidivism, but is there a targeted approach and goals that the department looks to and says, look, at the end of two years we'd like to have recidivism down to this rate? I mean, realistic rates, I know, what the goal for everybody would be zero, but what would be that target and how the department intends to get there? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the goal of the department is to lower the recidivism rates, and that's one of the reasons for compiling the rates in order for the department to be able to gauge itself over a period of time. The goal is to lower the recidivism rates. * (15:40) Mr. Goertzen: I mean, I appreciate that I think that that's the right broad goal. Are there no sort of targets set out on a two-, five-, 10-year framework? I guess one could–at one point, I think the recidivist rate for the Youth Centre was 100 percent. So I guess if we got the 99 percent, then you would say the goal was met.

But is there sort of a longer-term projection of goals that is more narrow and more focussed than to just lower the rates? Mr. Chomiak: The ultimate goal is to reduce recidivism across the system. There is no two- or five- or 10-year target. There's a correlation between the offences that people have been sentenced for and their risk association. It's much higher than it has been in the past. There are a number of factors that reflect the recidivism issue. The changing in sentencing standards as a result of changes to the Criminal Code will reflect that.

It's true that in areas where there's more direct supervision, that the recidivism rates are more favourable. Mr. Goertzen: I think that there should be sort of more defined goals. I think that it's often nice to have those specific goals to reach, to reach them. But, I mean, the goals, to lower them and sort of see how it goes. It's at pretty high mark and so I think we all would hope that that would be the case. So the department, obviously then, goes back two years post-release to see if the individuals are back, charged or in custody. Is there any sort of further analysis than that?

Is there any sort of individual contact with those who have re-offended to get a sense of the challenges of why they weren't able to not commit another crime, whether it was post-release programs or just simply an unwillingness? How deep does that analysis go? Mr. Chomiak: On re-admission, the entire process is repeated with respect to the risk factors and all the associated factors. All of the factors are taken into consideration in dealing with the re-admitted individual. Mr.

Goertzen: So you get a good idea, then, on the re-admission because you're going through the risk analysis again which we talked about yesterday. From that process, can the minister give a broad indication of why the recidivism rate seems to be stubbornly high? What is it that's driving individuals to re-offend over and over again? Mr.

Chomiak: The answer varies–the answer's quite complex, and what I'll do is provide the member with a written–rather than convey–the complexity of the matter is such that I'll provide a written response to the member with respect to that particular issue, because statistically it's just quite interesting because there are a number of issues. The more supervision one has in the community, the more likely one will be breached or one will be–sanctions will be applied against an individual, the type of sentencing, the type of individual.

So I'll provide a written statement to the member outlining those factors and the information that we use and how we apply it. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that and it wasn't–I'm glad the minister didn't just give me sort of a snippet answer, because it is a difficult question. I think that it probably does take someone else. I'm glad that that analysis is happening and sort of look forward to seeing the results of that because it is not an easy answer, but it's just good that that discussion is

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 877 obviously happening. I'm sure that the response I get from the minister will be deep and thought-provoking. On the issue, then, of measuring recidivism or measuring success of programs, and this isn't a value-laden question to the minister. I suspect all governments fall into this when there's good news to report on programs; it shows up in a press release, and when there's bad news, you sort of find out in some other ways that are less public. That's maybe just the nature of our system.

I don’t know that any one particular government falls more prey to that than others. But we have heard a lot of comments about The Safer Communities Act and the success of the act and my friend and former employer would be upset if I didn't mention, I think, that this comes from the old community protection act, I think it was called at the time. It was introduced in 1999 or 1998 and, I think, it was passed but not proclaimed until the government changed and then the acts were largely the same except for the application process.

There was a change to the application process, which I don't have criticism of–but I'm glad that there was that sort of legacy act that was able to get some good results and get some good media play as well. Other programs that have come in under this government, such as the Spotlight program or the Turnabout program, I've heard different reports. I haven't seen a report recently on the Spotlight program, I don't believe. Can the minister just sort of tell me how many individuals are in the program, how many have graduated from the program and how you measure the success of it?

I guess that's also whether or not youth are staying out of gangs or are getting out of those gangs and how long do you wait before you look back at those youth and see where they're at. Is that two year s or five years, and just how you measure the success of a program like that. Mr. Chomiak: I'll get the specifics on the Spotlight. I do know from my discussions with the ADM that the Spotlight program, like a lot of intensive programs, is measured some times in case of months; if an individual is not involved, that's considered a success.

That's the intensity, but we'll provide that information. * (15:50) I'm glad the member made the point about the Safer Communities program, and in conjunction with the criminal forfeiture act, because those are examples of a couple programs that without amendment were not workable. The initial safest community program and the original forfeiture program both required amendments. It's an interesting extrapolation because other provinces have now copied the Manitoba safer communities, and across the country, the Manitoba program on safer communities is seen as the gold standard the way it now stands.

On the other hand, the criminal forfeiture act that was originally contemplated for use by police officers was done differently in other jurisdictions, and we've copied the success of Ontario with respect to The Criminal Property Forfeiture Act in order to make our act workable. All of these measures are based on inputs into new forms of dealing with activity by various provinces, and then the success is copied by other jurisdictions and utilized. Ms.

Jennifer Howard, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair In the case of criminal property forfeiture, we've now taken the Ontario model, because they've had some success, with a case to Safer Communities. Virtually every province in the country has adopted it, and I'll make the point that B.C. just went through an experience with vehicles, et cetera, that I said, well, we should put onto our Safer Communities, and B.C. said we have to have a Safer Communities program and are taking our program, and we are taking part of their program.

Part of this is a learning curve that the provinces are entering into and are exchanging information on. I will get the member information specifically on Spotlight, because I think it's well worth looking at. Mr. Goertzen: I know the former Minister of Justice, the current senior member of Parliament for Manitoba, will take good pride in those words about the act that he introduced. He might not agree on it being unworkable, but I am assured that it was proclaimed before the former government lost power, so I guess that's maybe more of an academic argument.

Regardless, I think we can all be glad that whatever parts each government had in bringing it forward, that it's had good success. Then on the Spotlight program, I'm interested, obviously, in the number of youth who have gone into the program and then, of that number, how many graduated the program, and then how that success is measured. I mean, I appreciate to some extent what the minister is saying, because it is an intensive program with high-risk youth that is measured in a

878 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 very short period of time. I'm not opposed to there being a three-month or a six-month measurement out to rate success, but I think it also has to go beyond that. Is there not sort of a broader look back at the program? I think it's been around for at least two years now. Are there not lo ok-backs two years out at the young people to see if they stay out of gang involvement? Mr. Chomiak: The program is generally–it's interesting, because it's measured in increments.

I would compare it to something like a PACT program in health care where it's an ongoing process for a long period of time. We are undertaking an evaluation by an independent party on the program, which is generally standard practice across most government programs. Mr. Goertzen: Who's undertaking the study? Mr. Chomiak: University of Winnipeg. Mr. Goertzen: Is that report going to be made publicly available? Mr. Chomiak: We haven't got to that point, but I suspect it will be. Mr. Goertzen: I take the minister at his word on that.

I think the first experience I had in Estimates in 2003 was with the then-Minister of Conservation, maybe it was the second experience, who, I asked about a report that was being done on the operation of the parks. It was an independent report for $50,000, and he said he would get me the report after he finished reading it. That was six years ago, and I haven't seen it. So it's either a very in-depth report, or one that just simply wasn't helpful for the minister's program. This minister, I know, is true to his word on these commitments, and so I look forward to seeing that.

But on the issue of Spotlight then, am I right in saying that the initial individuals who have gone into the Spotlight program in 2006, is that right? Mr. Chomiak: The initial response from people that participate in the program and work in the program indicate that it looks favourable and that there's–it appears to be useful often or will graduate from a youth to adult supervision. Indications from our people on the ground are that it's an effective program. Graduation may not be the word to use.

You might want to use integration, but we'll find out from the University of Winnipeg some of the criteria and we'll adapt it accordingly. I think, in essence, any intensive program that matches a troubled youth with an array of programs can't help but be a more positive approach than having them confined for a long period of time. So I look at the program as I would look at any other program that provides support to individuals in terms of a success rate.

The specifics will come in time in terms of the actual data, but the initial on the ground review of the information that I've seen is very positive in terms of lesser involvement with criminal type activities on individuals than a non-supportive environment would provide. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the minister. I'm not sure that the word "graduates"–I might have actually got that from a government news release, but regardless that's small arguments at this stage.

I'll look forward to seeing how many individuals have gone into the program, how many people have had to leave the program for whatever reason, how many have graduated and how many are continuing on. I'm interested in the time frames that are being measured. Obviously, I'm sure it's not the day after a person leaves the program that they check to see if they're in a gang. There must be some time frame in between. I'm just curious what that time frame is. On other programs that have been put into place, the Turnabout program, I think at one point there was a very high success rate noted on the Turnabout program.

Are there any r ecent statistics on the success rate from that program and how success is measured? Again, how far out officials are looking to see if individuals who are under 12 and brought into that program have an interaction with law enforcement that results in a sanction or just any sort of interaction. I don't know how you measure success in the program. * (16:00) Mr.

Chomiak: In general, just to return to the Spotlight program, we have intensive case management and then we have Spotlight from the– from my side of the view, from my view of the information I've seen is the overall success is measured in terms of less interaction with the system, not necessarily totally free of interaction. I, again, compare it to the PACT program, Program for Assertive Community Treatment, used in health, where a program is also wrapped around an

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 879 individual. In this case, it'll be, generally, a severely mentally disabled individual, and the success in that program is measured similarly in terms of less direct intervention at the ER or less direct contact or less episodes. To that extent, that's how I've viewed the ongoing approach to Spotlight because, generally, the individuals that enter that program are quite high risk and quite complex in terms of the approach to the case. Now, with respect to Turnabout, to February this year Turnabout received 1,555 referrals involving 1,066 incidents.

That's from the commencement to the end of February. During the year 2008 and 2009, 40 of the children referred to Turnabout returned as repeat referral two or more times. Mr. Goertzen: I'm a little confused now. So 40 of the 1,550 referrals have been referred back? Mr. Chomiak: Yes. Why don't we provide the member with a written statement on that, just so that we can jive the figures together, because I am pulling them out of bullet-form notes here and I want to be accurate? Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that. Then on the Spotlight issue, the answer was a bit more nuanced maybe than I was expecting.

So the minister is saying that they don't measure success by no further interaction. It's by less interaction. Maybe that's fair. Maybe people might be concerned by that. People would sort of judge for themselves. I'm interested, I guess, in how many individuals have gone into that program and have had further involvement, regardless of how much it is, regardless if it's less, and maybe that can be broken down. But I'm interested in how many have gone into the program and how many are still having involvement, however the department is measuring that. So if you could just, sort of, determine that.

Obviously, you have that information because you refer to it. On Turnabout, there again, how is its success measured? Is it that th ey get referred back to Turnabout? If they don' t get referred back to Turnabout, then that's considered to be a success? Mr. Chomiak: A small measure of success would be that an individual was re ferred to Turnabout and was not referred back to Turnabout. Now, again, returning to Spotlight, the point I was making was my own

interpretation of the ongoing development of the program, that some of the favourable reaction was that individuals involved in the program have not re-involved in gang activity, et cetera, over a particular period of time. That, to me, is a measure of success. But the member is right. It's a fair comment to make in terms of involvement with a criminal process or not as a measure. That is one measure of success or failure. But we'll get the data that we have to the member. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that.

So, specifically, then, in Turnabout, if an individual under 12 is referred into that program–the program has been about for a number of years now–has there been a look back over the last five years to sort of get a rearview mirror look at success by looking back five years from individuals who are in the Spotlight program–now they would be captured under the Youth Criminal Justice Act; even with all of its challenges, they would be captured because they've got past 12–to see whether or not they've had involvement in those succeeding years, whether it's a five-year or four-year or three-year time frame? Mr.

Chomiak: I don't think we have that specific information with respect to Turnabout. We did do a look back in terms of re-involvement, but we don't have that specific information compiled. Mr. Goertzen: So the look back on re-involvement was re-involvement with Turnabout itself? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I'll provide a written response to that for the member, just to be precise. Mr. Goertzen: I'm just looking for that analysis the department did on that look back that the minister referred to in re-involvement.

Project Gang-Proof has been out there for some time, obviously more difficult to measure because it's sort of written material that gets distributed, so I'm not expecting there to be an analytical, numerical assessment of success, but I guess the public might look at it and go, you know, gang activity or, certainly, violence seems to have worsened over the last number of years. Then they look at projects and wonder: Okay, so what value are we getting for the dollars that we're spending?

Projects like Project Gang-Proof which I know was well touted by the government, is there any way that the minister can put his finger on the success of that sort of information distribution?

880 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 21, 2009 Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, the overall initiative, as the member indicated, you can't predict, or you can't quantify how many individuals didn't become involved in gang activity or were diverted because of the impact of the program. It's similar to some of the initial discussions I've had with respect to the crystal meth initiative that was undertaken which was a very intensive program.

But is there not a major crystal meth problem in Manitoba because we undertook an early intervention program, or did the era pass–did we do enough to–it looks like we've succeeded in preventing a major epidemic of crystal amphetamine breakout in western Canada. All jurisdictions undertook a number of activities. Is that because of the programming we put in place or are there other reasons? I think we're in discu ssions with other Justice ministers. They're all very pleased that there doesn't seem to be the same extent of problem that had been anticipated.

On the other hand, when talking to some of the workers in the program, I was surprised at how much crack cocaine was a substance abuse problem, and that was a personal revelation of mine. I thought the big problem would be crystal meth, and then I was surprised at how many kids were being admitted with crack cocaine problems. * (16:10) So I was talking about the gang-proofing– obviously there's been an impact.

Whether or not it's gone far enough or not, I don't think we can do enough across the board with respect to criminal organizations because I think it is the scourge that we face for a variety of social and economic reasons. I don't think we can do enough.

I think it was interesting that–and I was very pleased with the announcement we had this morning with the Member of Parliament, Shelly Glover, that the initiative on making auto theft an indictable offence, went further and dealt with gang-related issues that dealt with issues of car chop shops, et cetera, which are not a particular problem in Manitoba, but are a huge problem in larger urban centres like Montreal and Vancouver.

Madam Chairperson in the Chair I think that generally I'm really pleased that all of the jurisdictions are aligning themselves to deal with the fundamental issu e of gang and criminal organization association versus a whole bunch of other disparate attempts to deal with criminal activities. I think the core issue is gang organization and the related problems that come out of it whether you're in a large urban centre, whether you're in a rural centre or whether you're on a reserve. It's a problem everywhere. It has different ramifications everywhere.

So that's just the long way of getting around to a–that there's not enough we can do to keep people out of criminal organizations across the board. I appreciate the efforts done in Ottawa with smuggling of–it's stunning to me; it's stunning that most people living in Garden City, living in East Kildonan, living in Steinbach or living in The Maples, would not know that there are millions of people that are kidnapped and smuggled every year. It's extraordinary, and it happens in Canada.

So that's a long way of saying that criminal organizations are, in my view, at the root of most of the issues we have to deal with in the criminal justice system. Mr. Goertzen: I'm glad the member mentioned the work that the Member of Parliament for Kildonan, Joy Smith, is undertaking on the human trafficking issue. She's been recognized nationally and, I think, appropriately. The minister sort of makes my point by alluding to the crystal meth issue, and I'm glad he did. Certainly, I was one of those who supported the program prior to the information going out.

I held a number of community forums in my own community and we couldn't get information on crystal meth. In fact, I had to get the information from justice officials in Minneapolis and then we distributed it here in Manitoba, locally in my own area, but then I was asked to do presentations in other areas. I'm glad, in fact, that the government decided to sort of get on to that crystal meth issue. Did it prevent more of an explosion of the drug that we've seen in the Midwest of the United States?

It's hard to say, but at least you could look at it and go, well, we haven't had the same sort of uptake on the drug and so it certainly could have. It certainly is a possibility, that working collectively, that we were able to tackle that problem. I think that the point of my questions both on the Spotlight, Turnabout, Gang-Proof, is that I think most Manitobans would say, we haven't had success on the gang issue. So at least on the crystal meth side, an argument could be made that it might have been one of the contributing factors or the contributing factor for preventing that growth of the drug.

I don't think anybody would make that argument on the gang side because it just seems that

April 21, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 881 the problem is getting worse. That doesn't mean that any individual program isn't working. It doesn't mean that any one initiative of the government is failing. It just seems that, as a collective, it's not working. That is why, I think, it's important that these measurements on these prog rams are there and what those measurements actually are because I just don't think that if you asked people whether or not they think that the gang problem is getting worse or better, that anybody would say that it's getting better.

That's why it's important, I think, to get the measurement side. I'm glad the minister raised the crystal meth side because I think that's the opposite, maybe we could point to that as having been helpful. I want to ask some questions, I mentioned this yesterday, about the electronic monitoring program, the pilot project the government introduced. I can't rem

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-3-28b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 3rd hansardpdf 28b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4c39b443efb12385e2bb6d00bc51ff9daac75926

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