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March 26, 1990

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

DEATH OF MEMBER FOR OTTAWA SOUTH

ONTARIO FRENCH LANGUAGE SERVICES COMMISSION

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

COMPULSIVE GAMBLING

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

CHICAGO BOARD OF TRADE

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

DEMOCRACY

EVENTS IN LITHUANIA

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

EVENTS IN LITHUANIA

AGNES MACPHAIL

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ROUGE VALLEY

CAREER INFORMATION CENTRES

RESPONSES

ROUGE VALLEY

CAREER INFORMATION CENTRES

ROUGE VALLEY

CAREER INFORMATION CENTRES

ORAL QUESTIONS

WATER QUALITY

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

ONTARIO HYDRO LABOUR DISPUTE

HEALTH CONCERNS AT SCHOOLS

CHILD CARE

PURCHASE OF URANIUM

CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

ST ELIZABETH NURSING HOME

HYDRO RATES

PESTICIDES

HOSPITAL SERVICES

INMATES’ MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

HANDGUN REPLICAS

HOCKEY CHAMPIONSHIP

MOTIONS

COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP

PETITIONS

CARDIOVASCULAR CARE

TRAFFIC SIGNALS

WASTE MANAGEMENT

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

SECURITY IN PREMISES USED BY PUBLIC

TRANSMISSION LINE

REPORT BY COMMITTEE

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

INTERIM SUPPLY

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

DEATH OF MEMBER FOR OTTAWA SOUTH

The Speaker: I wish to inform the House that a vacancy has occurred in the membership of the House by reason of the death of Dalton James McGuinty, Esq, member for the electoral district of Ottawa South. Accordingly, my warrant has been issued to the chief election officer for the issue of a writ for a by-election.

ONTARIO FRENCH LANGUAGE SERVICES COMMISSION

The Speaker: I would also like to inform the House that I have today laid upon the table the final report of the Ontario French Language Services Commission, pursuant to subsection 15(7) of the French Language Services Act, 1986.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

COMPULSIVE GAMBLING

Mr Farnan: Paul G, a self-admitted compulsive gambler, is currently waiting to be tried for fraud. Over a period of 17 months Paul G, by his own admission, embezzled more than $200,000, not to enjoy a lavish lifestyle but solely to feed his gambling habit. Here are Paul’s own words: “I lived in a dream world where I envisaged making huge profits and currently am paying back the loans.”

Paul was counselled by the Canadian Foundation on Compulsive Gambling to attend the Valley Forge Medical Center in the United States but, because OHIP would subsidize only 75 per cent of this treatment, Paul could not make the trip. However, Paul points out, had a similar clinic been available in Ontario, it would have allowed him to attend. To quote Paul once again:

“Gambling is becoming more available in Canada and I believe the number of individuals requiring intensive clinical treatment can only increase....I look forward to the day I can benefit from a professional treatment centre in Ontario.”

Does the Minister of Health recognize compulsive gambling as a disease? Can the minister explain why there is not a single gambling rehabilitation clinic in the province? And how much longer are the unfortunate victims of compulsive gambling like Paul going to have to wait for the establishment of such a treatment centre in Ontario? The time to act is now.

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

Mr Cousens: Signs of spring are everywhere. The swallows have returned to Capistrano. Looking across the aisles I can see that the turkeys have returned to Queen’s Park, and tonight is the annual spring fling of the Oscars, the Academy Awards.

In Ontario we have our own world-class awards which we call the GRITS, Grim Reminders of Incompetence, Tax-grabs and Stupidity, which we award to members of the government in recognition of their more noteworthy screwups and fumbles. This year the competition was fierce, but we have come up with a list of winners which I and some of my colleagues would like to announce today.

The big award this year for worst performance in a lead role goes, as it has every year for the past five years, to the Premier. That mumbling mogul of the mediocre has a lock on top prize. This year we honour the Premier for his

part in a fantasy, the fantasy that his government has fulfilled the mandate it received in 1987. The Premier’s comments in this regard have led some industry watchers to conclude that Looney Tunes are about to make a big comeback.

While the Premier and the other winners are deserving of their awards, those not so honoured need not despair, because with practice they too can become true Grits and can achieve that proper balance of arrogance and ineptitude which makes for winners on awards night. My congratulations to the Premier.

CHICAGO BOARD OF TRADE

Mr D. W. Smith: Is it not time that the farmers quit pricing their production of soybeans on the Chicago Board of Trade? In the late spring and early summer of 1989, I read and heard through the media that the directors of the Chicago Board of Trade had to take appropriate action so that farmers would not lose money on their soybeans. The story was that a company called Feruzzi, which also owns Central Soya, was cornering the soybean market.

As it turns out, the companies represented by some of the board were on the opposite side of the market to Feruzzi and were more concerned about their own profits than the price of beans to the North American farmers. By the way, the price to the farmers of beans dropped $1.50 per bushel in five weeks.

In November 1989, the American Agriculture Movement Inc, on behalf of 430,000 soybean farmers in the United States, started a class action lawsuit against the Chicago Board of Trade. It seems ironic that the farmers lost millions of dollars while the companies made millions of dollars because of this action taken by the board. Also, some of these companies get taxpayers’ dollars to construct new facilities while farmers have to ask for taxpayers’ dollars to bail them out of their problems because they cannot get their costs of production in the marketplace.

I believe the time has come for farmers in North America, as well as around the world, to quit pricing their commodities on the Chicago Board of Trade.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

Mr D. S. Cooke: The death of 10 people just before Christmas in the Rupert Hotel fire is a tragedy that must be recognized by this Legislature. Rooming house fires have left a grim legacy of death in Toronto, killing at least 41 people over the past 16 years.

It is estimated that about 10,000 people in Toronto live in rooming houses, another 13,000 double up in Metropolitan Toronto Housing Authority apartments, 17,000 people are on the waiting list for MTHA units and between 10,000 and 20,000 people sleep in hostels or on the streets in this community.

The statistics and the tragic fire show dramatically the depth of the housing crisis in this province and in this community. We remember those who died and we demand that this horror not be repeated. Tens of thousands of people in Toronto and hundreds of thousands across Ontario are forced to live in overcrowded, substandard conditions because of the province-wide housing crisis. Many are faced with living in premises that are unlicensed, uninspected and not even subject to minimal standards.

As we mourn the dead in the Rupert Hotel blaze, we demand that our governments ensure that all people in this city and this province, especially single moms and those on welfare and the working poor, have a safe, affordable place to live. The provincial government must commit itself to provide the money and the other resources necessary to build more safe, affordable housing. Since the new Housing minister was appointed, there has been no new program for the not-for-profit sector. We demand action now.

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

Mrs Marland: To continue with the Academy Awards, I would like to say that our first GRITS award, the MIA award for ministerial inaction and special effects, goes to the Minister of the Environment. Having amused audiences everywhere with his portrayal of the bumbling junior G-man in the hit movie The Toxic Fuel Scam, the minister reached new heights of the absurd in his performance as the Hagersville Houdini, in which he made 14 million tires and his own credibility disappear at the same time. We hope this MIA award will remind the minister that when the going got tough, he got lost.

This year’s Reach Out and Kick Someone award goes to the Minister of Health for her sensitive performance in The Hotline Fiasco, the pilot for Emergency 911. The minister, in danger of being typecast as a consequence of her long-running Robocap performance, showed she has the capacity of playing lead roles in the GRITS soap opera. When faced with a problem, she did a great impression of the Premier and searched for scapegoats instead of solutions. As part of her prize, the Minister of Health will receive a 25-cent coin and Dr Nesdoly’s phone number.

The winner of the GRITS award for director of the year is the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology for his work on Waste, Flubs and Videotape. As head of I’m-a-Dope Studio, the minister paid 40 times the going rate for a promotional video which helped promote the spendthrift image of his government.

DEMOCRACY

Mr Neumann: Recent events in eastern Europe and the Soviet Union have made many of us reflect upon the true meaning of democracy. We have been inspired by people taking action to replace old-style, one-party governments run by bureaucratic minorities with new, multiparty democracies responsive to the will of the people. Already this year we have seen the formation of governments in several of these countries directly elected by the people for the first time in decades, or for the first time ever.

In Canada our system of democracy has evolved over many years in response to pressures and challenges which are distinctly Canadian. It is strong because the concept of rule by the majority is balanced by guaranteed rights for the individual, with a court system free of political interference. Respect for minorities and an atmosphere of tolerance and understanding are important elements of our success.

Canada’s democracy is by no means perfect, however. Events in recent months have shown that we have not yet found the proper balance between the will of the majority and respect for minority rights. I believe that we can overcome these difficulties if we continue to remind ourselves that our multicultural diversity and knowledge and respect for more than one language are strengths rather than weaknesses, to be promoted rather than stifled. By working together in harmony and respecting others in society who are different, we are acting to strengthen and protect our true democratic ideals.

EVENTS IN LITHUANIA

Mr R. F. Johnston: I rise to ask all members of this House to join with me and others to develop and participate in a Canadian parliamentary support committee for independent Lithuania.

It is time that we recognize the overwhelming democratic decision that was made there, which some of us witnessed, and that we demand of our federal government, as a group of parliamentarians, an official response to the Brezhnevian-style disinformation which is coming forward: a request that all international journalists be allowed to stay in Lithuania as some means of international protection for that country; official rejection of bullying techniques in an attempt to provoke violence which are taking place there now on a daily basis.

We should also decry any use of force and suggest that there should be no arrest of any of the young men who have decided to stay in Lithuania and to leave the Soviet army.

I believe it is important to understand that it would be an absolute desecration of our democratic ideals if we are to stand by and watch their democratic will thwarted. It would be a betrayal of a nation that was taken over illegally, which is still having bodies shipped back from Siberia these many decades after hundreds of thousands of people died there and which, in spite of enormous repression, has stood up peacefully at the ballot box to assert its will.

I ask all members to join with me in establishing this kind of parliamentary committee here, nationally and in other parliaments, so we can at least suggest that our hands are not tied, that we have voices we can lend to their support.

GOVERNMENT’S RECORD

Mr Cousens: A few more awards: A lifetime achievement GRITS award goes to the Treasurer, who has set modern-day records for the most tax increases, the heaviest tax burden, overspending and announcing the shortest-lived and most convenient balanced budget. The taxpayers who have had to pay for this sterling record have only one thing to say to the Treasurer: “Quit now.” In reviewing the Treasurer’s record, we say, along with Will Rogers, “Thank God we’re not getting all the government we’re paying for.”

The next award, the GRITS award for worst performance in a supporting role, goes to the Minister of Education. The clown prince of the front bench is being recognized for his performance in Honey, I Shrunk the Kids’ School System and for his continuing

part in The Phantom of Mowat Block. To receive his award, the minister should contact any of the teachers’ associations that have been trying to meet with him.

The first winner of the Fluffy the Cat Award for Humanitarianism is none other than the Attorney General, who could also have won, as our friend the leader of the official opposition has noted, for his credible impression of Hamilton Burger. The Attorney General can pick up his award at the local pound.

The GRITS award for least promising performance by a newcomer goes to the Minister of Revenue for his sorry showing in The Big Sleep. While napping on the set, the minister missed a plot change which turned $78,000 worth of information material into garbage. He can pick up his prize at the garbage dump.

EVENTS IN LITHUANIA

Mr Fleet: Mikhail Gorbachev, your actions shame your promises of peace, democracy and openness.

Lithuanians democratically and overwhelmingly voted for independence. The new Lithuanian government is doggedly carrying out the will of the people without a hint of violence.

In contrast, Mr Gorbachev, your army of occupation has tanks and troops clattering through Lithuanian streets and occupying buildings. International phone lines have been interrupted, the borders closed and the western media restricted within Lithuania.

Canadians have a right to telephone relatives and friends in Lithuania, to know that those relatives and friends are safe. Canadians have a right to a safer world, free from Soviet Cold War tactics.

We have all heard the calm but urgent plea of the Lithuanian president, Vytautas Landsbergis, for international support and assistance.

Actions speak louder than words. Let Canada act in support of peace and democracy in Lithuania and throughout the world.

Mr B. Rae: I believe we have unanimous consent to celebrate today the 100th anniversary of the birth of Agnes Macphail, which took place on the weekend.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

AGNES MACPHAIL

Mr B. Rae: This is a week of celebration, not only in Grey county but indeed in all of Ontario and all of Canada. We are celebrating at this time the 100th anniversary of the birth of a truly remarkable woman, Agnes Macphail.

Agnes Macphail was born on 24 March 1890. She attended local schools in Grey county and she went to Owen Sound Collegiate. She became a schoolteacher. In the years after 1910 she was a very active and remarkable woman teaching in what was then the farm land called North York

She became very active in the movement called the United Farmers of Ontario, which was a remarkable political movement.

Mr R. F. Johnston: Two founding members are still here.

Mr B. Rae: I had no idea that the Attorney General was such an active member of the United Farmers, but I do know that the Treasurer’s father was a very active member of the United Farmers of Ontario, which was one of the precursors of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation and of the New Democratic Party, and there were a great many others who were also influenced by the UFO.

Certainly there was Agnes Macphail, who in 1921 was the first woman ever to be elected to the Parliament of Canada where she served with great distinction for some 19 years, becoming a member of the CCF group in Parliament after it was formed in the 1930s, becoming a remarkable advocate on behalf of working people and on behalf of issues that mattered to her more than they did to others at the time.

She was well ahead of her time in fighting for prison reform. We even read today of conditions of overcrowding and the number of people who are in jail who are in need of psychiatric treatment and are not getting it in the province. One might well say that we need people like Agnes Macphail to advocate on their behalf even today. She was defeated for the House of Commons in 1940, but then she came back to political life, elected as a member of the official opposition in the elections of 1943 and 1948 for the riding of East York.

I obviously did not know Agnes Macphail, but I can tell members this story. When I was running for Parliament in 1979 in the new riding of Broadview-Greenwood, I took on part of Toronto known as East York, and there were a great many old CCFers and New Democrats who said they were delighted at finally being able to elect a socialist again after so many years when that had not been possible.

Hon Mr Scott: What was that? The “s” word? You said it.

Mr B. Rae: Look, there are changes happening everywhere. Changes are happening all over the world.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr B. Rae: I am very proud to pay tribute to Agnes Macphail. We celebrated the 100th anniversary of her birth with a dinner earlier last week. It was a great celebration. We are very, very proud to have Agnes Macphail associated with our party and with our movement, but I think it would be fair to say that we share her contributions with a great many other people, some of whom no doubt we will be hearing from in a very few minutes.

It seems to me that it is entirely appropriate that this House should celebrate the 100th anniversary of her birth, just as I am sure they will be doing in Ottawa, as we pay tribute to this remarkable woman, a remarkable pioneer on behalf of women all over Canada and a remarkable parliamentarian in her own right.

Mrs Cunningham: It is a great privilege this afternoon to be able to stand here and pay tribute to Agnes Macphail on the occasion of what would have been her 100th birthday.

Agnes Macphail is known throughout Canada as the very first woman to attain an elected seat in the House of Commons in our Canadian Parliament. For many she is not known well enough, and we have an opportunity this afternoon to spread the word through our Hansards and send them out to the schools across Ontario to young men and young women to show them the kind of leadership, the kind of courage, the kind of confidence and the kind of sheer guts that woman apparently had as she fought for things that we now, today, take for granted.

We now take for granted the idea that older people in Canada have been given our support through an old age pension system. We recognize that there were people who were poor across our country in 1921 and thereafter, and Agnes Macphail fought for their support and fought so that those of us who are more privileged than others can help people who need our assistance.

She also went on to bring to the attention of Canadians across this country and to the young people of Canada that others who were unfortunate, and now I will speak very specifically, the blind, also needed our support and our attention. We continue in these times, some 100 years later, to fight for the rights of the minorities and the disabled.

As we go on to talk about the challenges some 100 years later with our families and our young people, I am sure that if Agnes Macphail were here today, she would be very proud of some of the women who are elected, certainly to the Canadian Parliament but, more important, right here in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. I will speak very specifically: The member for York East holds the very seat that Agnes Macphail held some years ago and I am sure she would be very proud of the contribution that member is making.

I will go on to say that it is tough some days, as women, to speak out for what we believe in. It is even tougher to be accepted in what we do and to be taken seriously. But we are making gains and we are trying to be the best role models we can possibly be for other young women.

She was elected some 70 years ago, and as we know she was a woman who stood up for what she believed in. Yes, it has been mentioned that she was nominated by the United Farmers of Ontario for Grey South East. We should also know it was the agricultural community and teaching that gave her her start.

I do not know what will give young women a start today but I do know that in the federal House we now have just 39 of 295 members elected who are women. That is simply not enough. Some 14 per cent of the population of Canada is represented by women in the Parliament of our country, when more than 50 per cent of Canadians are women. Right here at Queen’s Park just 21 of some 130 elected members are women. That is some 16 per cent. We have a long way to go for equal representation, but I am sure it is a goal that Agnes Macphail would encourage us in.

It has been a great privilege to speak of a great woman, a great heroine and a wonderful pioneer for women in politics. who fought for the rights of everyone across Canada.

Hon Mrs Wilson: “I’m no lady. I’m an MP.” Those are not my words, of course; they are the words of Agnes Macphail, delivered to an official of Kingston penitentiary when she went there to see for herself the reportedly unbearable conditions suffered by prisoners. She was initially obstructed entrance because, of course, ladies were not allowed.

This Saturday marks the 100th birthday of one of Canada’s most remarkable citizens. When Agnes Macphail was elected to Parliament in 1921 few women were engaged in paid work, few women attended university and very few even drove cars. Yet this former schoolteacher, the daughter of farmers from southeast Grey, was re-elected to Parliament four times and on two occasions to the provincial Legislature here in Ontario.

Not only did Agnes Macphail ably serve the cause of farmers and women; she was also a champion for all of humanity and a fearless advocate for justice for all Canadians. Agnes Macphail, the first woman delegate to the League of Nations and the first woman to sit on its disarmament committee, was so much more than I can describe here today. She was a woman with a warm sense of humour. She was a woman of wit, deep-rooted honesty and absolute dedication to her principles.

She was a woman who should be honoured today, 100 years later, as a role model to us all, even in 1990. This farmer’s daughter, this rural member, celebrates with members of the House today the achievements of the remarkable woman and parliamentarian, Agnes Macphail.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ROUGE VALLEY

Hon Mrs McLeod: I have just returned from the Rouge River valley, where I had the privilege of announcing the Ontario government’s commitment to create a 10,500-acre park in the area. This is the most ambitious urban park project in Canada’s history. The Ontario government is donating an additional 1,600 acres of land beyond its earlier contributions for the park. If this land had been developed, it would have had an estimated financial value of $1.1 billion.

We also look forward to the federal government fulfilling its commitment to contribute $10 million towards the cost of establishing the park

We all know that parks play a vital role in our lives. They both preserve Ontario’s natural heritage and offer opportunities for respite and recreation which make this province a better place for all of us to live. Yet many of the green spaces within our cities are being threatened as the pressure for development increases. That is why we have decided that now is the time to protect the Rouge River valley. We want to make sure it remains green not only for the benefit of citizens today, but for the sake of our children, the citizens of tomorrow.

The Rouge Valley is a unique combination of outstanding features; they include rare plant and animal species living in a variety of natural habitats, historic buildings, significant archaeological sites, the Metropolitan Toronto Zoo and other recreational facilities. The Rouge does not fit any existing category of park. Its diverse range of values, all combined in an urban setting, makes the area special.

In order to determine the type of park that should be established, I will be appointing immediately an advisory committee. The committee will prepare a recommended management plan for the initial 4,300-acre area of the park, which is located south of Steeles Avenue. The advisory committee will be asked to recommend which agency or combination of agencies should manage the park. The committee itself will reflect a wide range of interests and will allow for extensive public consultation.

Studies will continue on plans for the remaining park reserve area south of Steeles Avenue between the eastern edge of the Little Rouge Creek Valley and the Scarborough-Pickering boundary. Metropolitan Toronto has nominated 136 acres in this area as one of its options for an interim landfill site. The proposed site will be subject to stringent environmental approvals and a mandatory public hearing. The site would be allowed only on the understanding that it would ultimately be returned to open space use.

In the ongoing acquisition of the Rouge River, Berczy Creek, Bruce Creek and Little Rouge Creek valley lands north of Steeles Avenue, we will be guided by the recently announced Rouge watershed management strategy of the Metropolitan Toronto and Region Conservation Authority. We will implement interim protection measures in the valley lands through co-operative planning with the municipalities and the conservation authority.

I believe that these measures to protect the Rouge River valley area demonstrate clearly the fundamental commitment of the Ontario government to the conservation of our province’s natural heritage.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. We will just wait until some of the members are finished.

Hon Mr Wrye: The Ministry of Transportation is committed to expanding Ontario’s transportation system to maintain our record growth and economic prosperity. At the same time, we believe transportation progress must take place in a manner that maintains our quality of life.

Seven years ago, the Ministry of Transportation submitted an environmental assessment report for a proposed freeway in the east Metro transportation corridor. That route would connect Highway 401 with the new Highway 407, which is already well under way in the northwest quadrant of greater Toronto. The proposed freeway connection would cross the last wilderness area left in the metropolitan area, the Rouge Valley.

Today I am announcing to the House that my ministry is withdrawing that proposal. There will be no further consideration of a route within the Rouge. We are equally convinced that other roads in the area would be as damaging to the environment. Therefore, I will make our intent perfectly clear and state that no new roads will be permitted in the Rouge Valley south of Steeles Avenue. Instead, we will rethink our transportation strategy in co-operation with Metro, York, Durham, Scarborough, Markham and Pickering.

With our regional and municipal colleagues we will undertake a strategic planning study to consider two alternative routes in the east Metro transportation corridor; one in the Morningside area of Scarborough and the other in the Brock Road area in Pickering. This review will also examine a broad range of public transit improvements, including expanded GO rail service and local transit using reserved bus lanes. In the meantime, we will protect the Morningside and Brock corridors.

Our direction is clear: We will develop a transportation system that supports economic growth in the greater Toronto area, promote greater use of public transit and respect the natural environment in any expansion of the transportation system.

CAREER INFORMATION CENTRES

Hon Mr Conway: As honourable members are aware, Ontario’s economy is changing as a result of global trends. The emerging global economy is placing increased emphasis on the areas of science, technology and the skilled trades. Our educational and training programs are already adapting to the new realities of the 1990s and beyond.

Today the range of employment and training opportunities in Ontario is changing at an unprecedented rate. More than ever before there is a special need to ensure that all Ontarians receive the information and guidance that will help them make wise decisions about their future. There is a special need as well to assist young people who are preparing for or who are experiencing the transition from school to work.

The Ministry of Education is committed to exploring innovative and co-operative ways to meet these needs. I am pleased, therefore, to announce today that the Ministry of Education will provide $400,000 to fund eight pilot project career information centres operated by school boards across Ontario. These centres, four of which will be in northern Ontario, will be funded at $50,000 each, and they will join a number of other centres recently established in southern Ontario.

The eight centres will provide a central, convenient point where a broad range of career-related counselling and up-to-date information will be available for the whole community. Young people who have dropped out but who are thinking of returning to school or who want training will be able to use these centres, as will adults who are interested in furthering their education.

As valuable resources for the community, these centres will also provide training and advice to teachers and other educators. As well, each centre will act as a focus for partnerships among school boards, local colleges and universities, business, industry and government agencies.

The Ontario government support for these career information centres reflects our commitment to ensuring that Ontarians will be prepared for the changing labour market of the 1990s.

As another step towards this goal, the Ministry of Education will hold a conference for 1,000 principals and guidance counsellors here in Toronto on 28 May, this spring. The focus of this conference will be on counselling and career education strategies that will help Ontario students participate in the growing opportunities of the new global economy, especially in the fields of science and technology and the skilled trades.

I believe that these initiatives represent another important contribution to the building of links between high-quality education and training and the world of work.

RESPONSES

ROUGE VALLEY

Mr R. F. Johnston: It has fallen upon me to have to respond to good news. I hate that sort of thing. I wanted to say, first of all, that huge congratulations should go out to the Save the Rouge Valley System group and the coalition of community groups in Scarborough who worked tirelessly to convince unlistening governments at both levels for years of their plea to save this wonderful area. I am delighted that the provincial government today has decided to join in to try to save that important piece of Carolinian forest in southern Ontario.

I am reminded by one of my members that before I get too excited, of course, we should remember that the last major park initiative here in Metro was Harbourfront and we saw what Huang and Danczkay have done to that. This one is probably the only provincial park that has been announced with its own landfill already. God knows where that leads.

But one must temper one’s propensity to criticize at a moment like this and say that what is being preserved here for the future, for the people and the children of generations to come, is access to wilderness area, access to a kind of forest which is no longer readily accessible through most of southern Ontario, where it once existed. That heritage is indeed vital to be maintained.

Some of my northern friends might say, in a waggish way, “Why is it that we have this kind of assistance for the Rouge and around Metropolitan Toronto and we have another sort of policy for Temagami?” I leave that, of course, as a rhetorical question that might be posed to this government. Perhaps it has something to do with how nervous some of the five members in those Scarborough seats were beginning to feel, knowing the strength of those organizations out there.

I also have one major and fundamental disappointment about this announcement which I hope the Premier will rise to correct today before this chamber rises. This government has recognized the importance of the archaeological sites and the native history in that area which need to be preserved. It is amazing to me that this government did not appoint an aboriginal representative to that advisory committee that is going to oversee the development of this park.

I hope the Premier or one of the ministers who have made announcements will rise today and immediately add to this list one of those people who have been so strongly in support of the development of this park so that this can be a totally happy day and not a day which is left with the kind of niggling question about why that oversight was made.

Looking at the information as it comes forward I am, generally speaking, pleased by what I can read from the maps and the other information about the protection of some of the tablelands, but there is some question as to just how much protection there is along the waterways feeding the system. I am hoping this will be something we might be able to get clarified from the Minister of Natural Resources especially in the next little while. There would be no point in not protecting it totally if we are to actually preserve the water quality which is now so wonderful in that area.

I would just say finally that it is a great pleasure to see that there is now unanimity in this House on this matter and that the people of Ontario will have this preserved for the future.

CAREER INFORMATION CENTRES

Mr R. F. Johnston: Accepting the fact that the member for Scarborough East’s earlier decrees have been set back in terms of the transportation corridor, I might just say briefly to the Minister of Education, who likes pilot projects so much, congratulations on producing a few others. I think it is commendable that he can keep producing these $50,000 offices to provide meaningful assistance to people, given the implications for salary that must have and for other support services.

I think it is going to be very difficult for these centres to be able to operate in the way the government wants to but, again, the minister of pilots is back again with no overall plan but a series of little bits of money here and there which will probably mean nothing in the long run.

ROUGE VALLEY

Mrs Marland: It is a pleasure to rise today and acknowledge the fact that the Liberal government has now confirmed a decision that was made by the Progressive Conservatives some 15 years ago. We too are happy that this government has confirmed what has been a plan for this property for some 15 years.

I want to point out to the minister that where she mentions there was an estimated financial value of $1.1 million if this property had been developed, that land was never bought by the people of this province to be developed. It was always bought to become a provincial park, so there was not a development value to it.

However, in talking about the designation, I hope that very soon the minister will designate it as a provincial park and therefore give it the designation under provincial park status, the natural environment classification which is needed. Simply the urban park classification will not necessarily protect it.

When we are looking at the decisions that were made and included in the minister’s announcement today, we want to place on the record our concern and the concern of those people who have worked very hard to preserve this property. That is, the province owns the table land north of Steeles Avenue all the way up to the 10th line along the Little Rouge River. We would ask the minister to accommodate the wishes of those people in terms of protecting the wildlife and water quality corridors that are along that river. We own the property. It is table land. At this point she has designated only the valley. So we ask her to take that into consideration.

Most important, we are concerned about the fact that the Liberal government has not taken a position on the Metro dump. We are rather horrified that Metro council will still have the option of putting its garbage in the Rouge Valley. We plead with the minister to please reconsider the fact that she would not take a position on the dump. Maybe it is purely politics, but what we say to her about her designation and her speech today is that it must go beyond the political issue. It is purely and for ever an environmental issue and if the minister is committed to the conservation of the Rouge, Metro council must not be permitted to put its garbage in this dump. That in itself is critical.

We also plead that, in the eventuality that the minister does not take action on the dump, she subject the dump’s classification to a full environmental assessment, not under the Environmental Protection Act, however, but under the Environmental Assessment Act. Otherwise there will be no protection at all.

Mr Pollock: I want to compliment the Minister of Natural Resources on her efforts to announce that the Rouge Valley will be a provincial park and also compliment the member for Mississauga South and the Rouge Valley committee for their efforts, because they have done a lot of lobbying to make this a provincial park. I think they helped to make it happen. It will be very beneficial to have that park so close to Metro Toronto and it will serve the residents of Metro Toronto well.

I would hope the minister will not spend all her money right here in the Metro Toronto area. I have been lobbying for years for the Marmora subdivision to be a recreation trail and I have never heard about that. I just want to mention that.

Mr Cousens: Once in a while the government listens to the Legislature. On 22 June 1989 in this House we passed a unanimous amendment that asked the government to look at protecting the east Metro expressway. The government has done that with this announcement and we are grateful. We just hope it will continue to do the right things for the environment. This is a good first step.

CAREER INFORMATION CENTRES

Mr Jackson: The Minister of Education’s statement about eight career education centres sounds vaguely similar to a somewhat broken 1986 throne speech promise of this government to provide assistance to schools to set up job screening programs. They committed $600,000, all of which was not spent. I am afraid what we have today is a reconstituted announcement from a reconstituted Education minister from 1986.

ORAL QUESTIONS

WATER QUALITY

Mr B. Rae: I have a question for the Minister of the Environment. It is about water quality and relates in particular to findings of chemical contamination in wells in the Hagersville area.

Why are ministry officials telling farmers there is no problem with their using the Sandusk Creek for their farm animals when we know that the carcinogen NDMA has been found in 14 parts per trillion in a private well near the site? Can the minister tell us why his ministry continues to say there are no problems when the evidence of chemical contamination is there for all to see?

Hon Mr Bradley: I think the member would know that our ministry indicated some time ago that we would be on the site and the adjacent area for some period to come to do all of the extensive testing necessary to ensure that we are able to detect any contamination either onsite or adjacent to the site. I can assure the member that we will continue to do so indefinitely -- I mean for months and years to come -- to determine whether there is migration. If there is any migration from the site itself, we will ensure that it is part of the cleanup.

Mr B. Rae: I do not think the minister answered my question; so perhaps I could try another route.

It has been reported to us that levels as high as 19 parts per billion of benzoapyrene, which is also a known carcinogen, have been found in the runoff water from the site before the treatment at the onsite treatment plant. Can the minister give us today a categorical assurance that the water coming out of the treatment plant is in complete compliance with the drinking water guideline being used by the Ministry of the Environment: only 10 parts per trillion of benzoapyrene ?

Hon Mr Bradley: Our treatment plant, as members know, is down at the present time for maintenance because when you have carbon filtration in a plant of this kind you must continue to replace the filters in that particular plant.

We do the testing of the water, first of all, as it goes in -- it is water that is already in there -- and the water that then would be prepared for discharge. Our people on the site have done that very extensive testing and have ensured that it meets all of the necessary water standards before there is a discharge.

I can tell the member as well that on the site itself there will continue to be replacement of any of those filters -- and that is what happens with a carbon treatment system -- as it becomes necessary to ensure that there is a catchment system for any contamination.

Mr B. Rae: I wonder if the minister can perhaps clarify something for me. I am from Missouri in this regard. Back in 1985 the leader of the Liberal Party, who is still the leader of the Liberal Party, responded to the project for environmental priorities. When he was asked “Do you support the establishment of a safe drinking water act which would guarantee Ontario citizens the right to safe drinking water?” the leader of the Liberal Party responded with a definite yes to that simple and direct question.

The minister will know that the federal government tests for only some 50 chemicals and that the water guidelines for Canada established by the federal government do not cover over 900 chemicals that have now been found in the waters of the Great Lakes.

In 1985 the leader of the Liberal Party said yes to the question about safe drinking water and the need for

an act in Ontario. The minister’s answer last week was, “Oh no, that’s not up to us; that’s all a federal responsibility.” Why would he give us that kind of falderal when just five years ago his leader was ready to say yes, we need standards for Ontario and they need to be enforceable? Why the change?

Hon Mr Bradley: I guess I will answer the last question first by saying that we of course have adopted in Ontario a drinking water surveillance program which looks for some 180 potential contaminants and measures in such things as parts per trillion and parts per quadrillion any substances that might potentially be found in water. It is the most extensive program I think that one will find in virtually any jurisdiction. It allows us to have a good look at the drinking water in the province and to take any remedial action necessary.

In regard to his other questions, I know that an advisory was given to area people on Sandusk Creek, advising that it not be used. As well, that it is my understanding that there is no benzoapyrene in the treated water that would be discharged from that particular plant in the area.

With the very extensive program that we have in Ontario, with the considerable amount of money that we are spending on such things, as the member would be aware, as both water and sewer projects in the province and with the activities that we have undertaken in terms of the cautions on waste management and the comments on new developments that take place in the province, I can assure the member that those have a very positive effect on the protection of water.

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

Mr B. Rae: Before the House came into session, I was in Ottawa meeting with many groups of people who were running centres that provide food of an emergency kind to people of all ages. Nearly half the people who use the food banks, the grocery services and the emergency services in Ottawa, as in the rest of the province, are children. All these groups have come together because many of them have been cut off from, denied access to, funds from the ministry. Indeed, many of them are no longer able to provide services that they were providing up until the end of February.

Does the minister really think it either fair or wise to cut off the emergency programs with regard to food when we know that the need has not fallen away, that the need has not declined, that there are people who are still hungry and still in need of emergency services when it comes to eating?

Hon Mr Beer: As the honourable member is aware, a year ago it was decided that the emergency program in terms of the food portion would be phased out because of the major reforms that came about in terms of the social assistance review with the additional dollars that were going to be provided for basic shelter and for basic needs, including food. That was a program of some $415 million. The emergency program was approximately $1.5 million.

A large portion, almost half of that, will be continuing in terms of providing assistance for those centres that are providing a variety of day care programs, but it was our belief that where the money should go in terms of food was into the basic subsidy and to provide more money for basic shelter.

Mr B. Rae: It turns out that all the minister has done by bringing in the Social Assistance Review Committee reforms is he has taken money away from shelters like the Shepherds of Good Hope and he has transferred it over, but he still has not solved the basic problem. Between 1986 and 1989, at the Shepherds of Good Hope, which is a refuge in Ottawa, the number of people served by the grocery program rose from 20,000 to some 41,000. They asked the government for nearly $340,000; they got $44,000.

Does the minister really think it is good, fair or right to take money away from these programs and from these people when the need is still there? He does not have any reason to believe that his program is changing the demand for food. It is not.

Hon Mr Beer: I think that in deciding to go the route that we did with the social assistance reforms, it was precisely because we believe that is the way to have a real impact on the needs that people have around shelter and around emergency assistance. We are beginning to see, as was stated before the standing committee on social development, that the number of people on social assistance who are seeing their income grow during the course of the last four or five months is significant. That is going to provide more money in the pockets of those on social assistance for food and other necessities.

We realize that this by itself has not resolved the entire problem, but we are convinced that the best way to approach this matter is through key, focused, long-term reform and not just by providing small sums of money in individual programs. We think the results are starting to come in and that those will begin to show a decline in the need for these special programs.

Mr Philip: I am sure the minister will acknowledge that the social assistance reforms he has implemented do absolutely nothing for the single, for the working poor or for the disabled. Many of these people are using these food banks at the present time.

Is he aware that at the Rexdale food bank there has not been any decrease in the number of requests for assistance in either January or February and that as of 31 March that food bank is going to have to close as a result of his cutbacks? What does he intend to do with all of those people who need food in Rexdale and so many other communities -- the working poor, the single and the disabled?

Hon Mr Beer: I do not accept that the social assistance reforms do not benefit all those who require social assistance; in fact, we can see that the amount of funding going to individual recipients has gone up since they were implemented. The member should remember, we are talking here about a program of some $415 million. Again, we have said that will not totally resolve all the problems around poverty. The member says that none of this will help the working poor, and yet the supports to employment program very specifically is an income supplementation model of a program where all people who apply for that and are eligible will be able to receive assistance.

I think one has to look at the broad front on which we moved in terms of those social assistance reforms and to see that they are having an impact where there are individual or specific problems. Through our area offices we will continue to work with those centres to try to help them in the best way we can, but I believe that we as a government have said that our priority must be to go at fundamental reform of the system.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Runciman: My question is for the Minister of Financial Institutions. The minister will know that the Canadian Bar Association has a legal opinion from an eminent lawyer, Gordon Henderson, whose work the Attorney General is quite familiar with, stating clearly that there is reasonable doubt that Bill 68 is constitutional, and that he is urging the minister to refer the legislation to the Court of Appeal for a reference. As well, the government has refused to provide us with a copy of its legal opinion on the matter. Is the government prepared to be fair to everyone and refer Bill 68 to the Court of Appeal for a reference?

Hon Mr Elston: We will not be referring the bill to the Court of Appeal for reference. As the honourable gentleman knows, that is an unusual step and very seldom used by a Legislative Assembly. We likewise have opinions and have found that the bill is constitutional, in accordance with the opinions that we have received.

Mr Runciman: Innocent accident victims who suffer psychological injuries will have to wait two or three years for a constitutional decision on this matter. These accident victims already have one strike against them with the disabilities they will have to endure, yet the government is bent on creating another strike against them by forcing them to wait for a constitutional decision. Why does the minister not have the Attorney General refer the bill to the Court of Appeal for reference?

Hon Mr Elston: It is the usual practice for me to try to set the honourable gentleman straight about the merits of Bill 68, the new auto insurance bill. In fact, I should do that now at the outset to indicate that the bill provides better compensation for people who are injured in Ontario than has previously been the case. As he knows, we have moved from $140 a week now to $600 a week; we have long-term care which goes, instead of $1,500 a week as it previously was set, up to $3,000 a week, so that people who have problems associated with accidents will receive those benefits without having to prove their disabilities through the court system.

He knows full well that those are new benefits in place now, without having to go to the courts, and he should acknowledge to the people of Ontario that there is a new way of providing compensation and support for those people which was not in existence at all prior to this bill coming forward. It seems to me that he should very clearly state that this is a better way of providing support for those individuals; in fact, it takes the burden from the shoulders of people who used to have to wait four or five years to figure out whether or not the courts would provide any assistance whatsoever.

Mr Runciman: The minister and his colleagues not only have failed to set me straight on this issue; obviously, according to the Angus Reid poll results this morning, they have failed to influence a majority of Ontarians who are strongly opposed to the legislation.

The president of Kingsway General Insurance Co, William Star, has put the Premier on notice that should the government proceed with Bill 68 without a court reference, his insurance company would hold the province responsible for all claims or costs it would have to pay should the legislation be ruled unconstitutional.

We are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in claims. If the minister is not prepared to ask for a constitutional reference, is he prepared to compensate the insurance industry and innocent accident victims, and if so, where is that money going to come from?

Hon Mr Elston: I am aware of the letter which was sent by Mr Star at the urging of one of the directors of his board, Mr Gluckstein, as I understand it, who is a member of the Fair Action in Insurance Reform committee. We have information that indicates quite clearly that Mr Gluckstein has been advocating with the parent company that such a letter be sent, and he obviously has had his way with Mr Star. I do not feel there is any real problem in accepting Mr Gluckstein’s opposition to the bill; he has stated it very specifically and very thoroughly before, and we accept that as a presentation.

We do know this about the bill: It will provide quicker compensation for people involved in accidents. We know that it provides disincentives for people who cause accidents by insuring that increased premiums will be paid by those people responsible. We know that there will be better support both in supplementary medical and rehabilitation services and in long-term care. We know that all that goes into this bill, and we do know that quicker payout to those people means a better way of taking care of accident victims in a more humane fashion.

[Later]

Hon Mr Elston: Mr Speaker, I wonder if I might rise to correct the record.

Mr D. S. Cooke: Your record?

Hon Mr Elston: Of my own, yes, thank you.

Mr Laughren: This could take a while.

Hon Mr Elston: No, this will be quite brief. I had indicated inappropriately, from misreading my briefing materials, that Mr Gluckstein, whom I had mentioned in a reply to the member for Leeds-Grenville, was a director of a company associated with Kingsway General Insurance Co. He is in fact not a director, he is a shareholder, and I regret any embarrassment that I may have caused either the company or Mr Gluckstein.

ONTARIO HYDRO LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr Brandt: My question is for the Minister of Energy. She is aware that there is a strong possibility that an Ontario Hydro strike may occur within the next week. She is also aware that coming on the heels of that, there is a possibility as well that the nuclear system could be shut down as early as Thursday or the latter part of this week in anticipation of a potential strike. Could she indicate to us what role the government is playing in connection with attempting to resolve this matter prior to its arriving at a position somewhat similar to 1985 when, at great cost to the province, a strike took place? Could she bring us up to date on her actions?

Hon Mrs McLeod: The honourable member’s question, as he has phrased it, might be addressed most appropriately to my colleague the Minister of Labour, because the Ministry of Labour has been very closely monitoring the collective bargaining situation. In fact, it has a mediator working with the situation. An offer is being voted on at the present time, and I think we have to focus on the expectation and hope that there will be a resolution at the collective bargaining table.

Mr Brandt: I am glad the minister did not refer the question, because my supplementary was for her as well obviously, and it relates to the positions being taken by Ontario Hydro and the union in connection with what might happen.

Ontario Hydro is indicating that there will be a strong possibility of either blackouts or brownouts occurring as a result of part of the system not being available for operation, primarily the nuclear dimension to the system. The union is indicating that surplus power can be purchased from Quebec, Manitoba or US jurisdictions in order to make up the shortfall.

I wonder if the minister could indicate first, since there is a potentially tremendous cost to consumers, home owners and industry if there is any disruption of power flow to the residents of Ontario, what contingency plans are in place with respect to power needs that we can anticipate. Second, who is right, the union or Ontario Hydro, in connection with what is going to happen if there is a strike?

Hon Mrs McLeod: I think clearly the difficulty would be one of attempting to predict a situation which might be in place if there was not a successful resolution of this issue at the collective bargaining table. Again, our focus right now is on the collective bargaining process and our hope is that it will be resolved at the collective bargaining table.

There is obviously a concern that should that resolution not take place and should there be some disruption in work, we would have to have, and expect Hydro to have in place, contingency plans to deal with any interruption of service. However, the very nature of the contingency plans required would depend on such factors as whether there would be a full work stoppage, would it affect different areas differently and what would be available to Hydro at a particular time?

Hydro has felt it appropriate, and I would agree, to advise its customers that in the event of any work stoppage, there could be some disruption in service. We would expect that it would minimize any disruptions through contingency plans.

Mr Cureatz: Final supplementary to the Minister of Energy, following along my leader’s first question: I had the opportunity of being visited in my riding office on Friday by three representatives of CUPE Local 1000 from the Darlington generating station, Mr Melnyk, Mr Beggs and Mr Tutkoluk They indicated to me some concerns of Ontario Hydro bargaining in good faith with their representatives.

I too have similar concerns, because I want to remind the minister that over the last number of months, Ontario Hydro and my own municipality, the town of Newcastle, have been at continual loggerheads, with all kinds of press, concerning the dialogue over the emergency plan process at the Darlington generating station. I had the opportunity of phoning the chairman of Ontario Hydro and asking him to meet with the mayor of the municipality to try to start a dialogue. He has yet to do it. So I too am concerned.

Has the minister made any efforts so far to speak with the chairman of Ontario Hydro to ensure that his and his staff’s approach concerning the possibility of a strike will be in an open, fair manner and very amicable to negotiating a possible settlement before the strike?

The Speaker: Order. I am sure there was a question there somewhere.

Hon Mrs McLeod: As the member places the supplementary question, I rather regret that I had not referred the question to the Minister of Labour, because again the question focuses on what is a collective bargaining situation taking place right now. That is the government’s focus, as I know it is the focus of both the union and the management of Ontario Hydro, and that is an appropriate focus.

I have had opportunities to talk with both union representatives as well as management representatives, so I am fully apprised of the situation. My focus as Minister of Energy will be to ensure that Ontario Hydro does have contingency plans in place to deal with any eventuality, but as the member correctly suggests in his question, the focus right now is on the collective bargaining table and the successful resolution of the issues there.

HEALTH CONCERNS AT SCHOOLS

Mr R. F. Johnston: My question is for the Minister of Education and the Minister of Colleges and Universities regarding the asbestos problem that has been identified recently in the Metropolitan Toronto separate school system specifically, but elsewhere as well.

Given that the province is responsible in general for the health and safety of its citizens and that it establishes the standards and procedures for asbestos removal and abatement, and since in the past the provincial government has paid money out of its budget for the cleanup in the schools, especially between 1979 and 1984, is it the minister’s intention to work out an arrangement with the boards of education in the province, in particular in this case, to put provincial dollars into the abatement of this obvious problem which is causing a great deal of malaise out there in society?

Hon Mr Conway: The member is right to observe that over the past decade the Ministry of Education has paid out, I think, close to $40 million to school boards as part of an asbestos abatement program. It is also true that the Ministry of Education is still quite prepared to accept submissions from school boards through their regular capital expenditure forecasts for additional asbestos abatement requests.

Mr R. F. Johnston: The minister knows, of course, that trying to put that into your capital forecast, given the difficulties that are out there for boards these days, is enormously difficult.

The minister is also the Minister of Colleges and Universities, and perhaps I can redirect to him around his responsibilities. I have a letter here from President Arthurs at York University as of last December about some of the problems at Osgoode Hall, where asbestos has been identified as a problem. He indicates to me that the Council of Ontario Universities estimated recently that the cost of asbestos removal and abatement of asbestos problems at the university level would be $84 million. Does the same principle not apply that this government, and not those institutions or those boards in particular, has the responsibility for making sure that those students are safe?

I do not know about the minister, but over the last number of years I have had friends who died of mesothelioma and of asbestos poisoning.

The Speaker: Order. The question was asked. Minister.

Hon Mr Conway: I want to assure my honourable friend from Scarborough and the people of Ontario that the government takes very seriously its responsibilities in so far as the monitoring of the asbestos hazard and its redress are concerned. As I indicated earlier, we have appropriated tens of millions of dollars in the school system to address the needs, and I am quite prepared to entertain submissions from both the elementary-secondary part of education and the post-secondary institutions.

I am sure my honourable friend would have heard this morning Fraser Mustard, who I thought reviewed the findings of the royal commission of some years ago to very great effect. I thought Dr Mustard’s observations were very telling, and I can assure him I intend to deal very directly with requests from both colleges and universities and from school boards in consideration of their concerns in this matter.

Mr Jackson: I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Today, over 1,000 children will not be attending Our Lady of Victory and St Mary of the Angels schools in York region because their parents are afraid of the potential risks of exposure to friable asbestos.

According to a press release issued by his ministry, dated March 2, “all school boards have submitted documentation” -- I quote directly from his own press release -- and that was compliance and documentation with respect to the risks and identification of specific schools. Given that the minister now has this information, can he tell the parents at these two schools whether or not the schools are in compliance with his regulations?

Hon Mr Phillips: It was yesterday, I guess, at one of those schools, Our Lady of Victory, that our inspectors completed their work, and their conclusion was that the school is safe for the students. I might add that the very extensive royal commission on asbestos recommended that in virtually every case it is best to manage the asbestos within the building rather than to remove it. In this particular case, our inspectors have been through that facility in some considerable detail. We have satisfied ourselves that the facility is safe for the students to be in. We have informed the school board of that orally, and I think we will be doing that in writing today.

Mr Jackson: Apparently the position of his government is that the concerns of parents are unfounded, at least in those two schools. But my question to the minister specifically was with the actual information which school boards have given him with respect to compliance with his regulations.

He has regulations for a reason. We assume that it has to do with the safety and health of the children, the teachers and the workers in any given school in Ontario. He has the list. He can identify the schools. Will the minister make that information public so that parents can distinguish between those schools which his own regulations tell them are at risk and those schools that are not? He has the information. Will he make it public today?

Hon Mr Phillips: I began my answer by assuring the parents of the students at Our Lady of Victory of the work that our ministry staff have been doing, which has been quite a thorough investigation of that particular facility, and that in our judgement, after that investigation, the school is safe. We also have reviewed with the Metropolitan Separate School Board its program for complying with the regulation. We reviewed that as recently as Friday, I think, and we are satisfied that its program, properly implemented, will ensure that the school board complies with our regulations.

CHILD CARE

Mr Chiarelli: My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. As the minister would know, last fall his ministry provided funding for capital and startup costs for a much-needed and very appreciated nonprofit multicultural child care centre in my riding of Ottawa West. Having visited the new centre myself, I know at first hand that the new facility is now up and running successfully, and for the minister’s assistance the community is truly appreciative.

However, in order to ensure its continued financial viability, it is my understanding that this centre, along with three other new facilities in Ottawa-Carleton, is anxiously awaiting an announcement regarding the provision of subsidized spaces. My question to the minister is this: Given that these new centres missed out on the 1989-90 subsidized space allocations for Ottawa-Carleton, what is the possibility of the minister’s preflowing 1990-91 allocations to these very needy and deserving facilities?

Hon Mr Beer: I am delighted that the new multicultural centre is functioning very well. As the honourable member is perhaps aware, over the last five years we have seen the growth in the Ottawa-Carleton area in child care spaces of over 2,000, from 2,400 to 4,400, and the amount of money that has been going into the Ottawa-Carleton area from some $8 million to almost $19 million.

We recognize that the demand continues. One of the factors we have to consider in the allocation of spaces is that, as some of the major urban centres were quick off the mark in terms of obtaining spaces, now many other parts of the province, particularly rural areas, are also making their demands known.

I can assure the honourable member that we are trying to meet the needs that are there and that while this ministry does not preflow funds, we are at the point where we hope very shortly to have all of our allocations in hand for the next fiscal year.

Mr Chiarelli: At the present time these four centres are operating without any subsidized spaces whatsoever. Can the minister give these centres any comfort at all that in the foreseeable future they will have some subsidized spaces?

Hon Mr Beer: That is an issue we are looking at very carefully and, as I said, we hope to be able to make an announcement on that shortly.

I would say, given that it is the Ottawa area in particular that the honourable member is speaking about, those active in the child care area would do well to speak with federal members and with the federal government about the fact that it has cut the funding it is making available under the Canada assistance plan and it has not as yet come forward with any new proposals since it unilaterally withdrew the child care program that it had promised to bring in.

PURCHASE OF URANIUM

Mr Wildman: I have a question of the Premier regarding the devastating economic situation in Elliot Lake, where Rio Algom has announced 1,600 workers will be laid off at the end of this year and Denison Mines will lay off 450 workers by the end of August this year.

In 1982, when he was in opposition, the Premier questioned why Ontario Hydro, under the previous government, was not prepared to pay “above the world price to Madawaska Mines for uranium to keep that community” -- Bancroft -- “going.” In view of the position taken at the time of the Bancroft closure, is the Premier prepared now to make a commitment that Ontario Hydro will purchase the uranium it needs for its nuclear generating plants in this province -- as long as it is operating nuclear generating plants -- from Ontario sources, specifically Elliot Lake?

Hon Mr Peterson: I appreciate the question the honourable member raises. As my honourable friend knows, the problems in Elliot Lake are not just a function of Ontario Hydro’s contracts but of other contracts around the world as well. I know he knows that.

I also know that he knows that Ontario Hydro is paying a very considerable subsidy; in other words, way above world price. I am sorry I cannot tell my honourable friend the exact figure now but, as I understand it, and he will correct me if I am wrong, it is roughly double the amount at which uranium could be purchased on the open market, particularly in other parts of Canada, as my friend will know, in Saskatchewan.

In a sense, Ontario Hydro and the consumers of Hydro are paying a direct subsidy into that community. That is something that has gone on for a long period of time and it has been a matter of long discussion, as my honourable friend knows. I think one can make an argument that there are enormously good reasons for purchasing things inside the province, but obviously my friend will be aware that this is a source of irritation with some of our other sister provinces, which feel that they should be bidding fairly on uranium and have access into our purchasing power. So there are many sides to this question.

One of the other realities is that Elliot Lake is a wonderful community with a highly developed infrastructure and really quite a wonderful place to visit. It is a great tragedy to see these massive numbers of layoffs that are coming there.

I do not have a quick and easy answer to my honourable friend’s question, except to say that I know there will be some purchases by Ontario Hydro. I cannot tell him exactly the mix. It is imperative that they are sensitive to the realities of that community. I can tell my honourable friend that a number of my colleagues, led by the Minister of Northern Development and others, including the member for Algoma-Manitoulin, are working very, very closely with that community, looking for alternatives and looking for solutions. We have had other problems in --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Wildman: I appreciate the comments of the Premier with regard to the efforts of the Minister of Northern Development and my friend the member for Algoma-Manitoulin in conjunction with the people of Elliot Lake and the North Shore, but would the Premier not agree that by making such a commitment by Ontario Hydro, the communities of Elliot Lake and Blind River and the North Shore would have more time to adjust and to work out strategies for diversification if they had some idea of a length of time and volumes of purchases that Ontario Hydro was prepared to make so that we could move ahead and try to alleviate the devastation of the economy that will result from the company’s downsizing due to world prices for uranium?

Hon Mr Peterson: My honourable friend puts forward a suggestion, and it is a constructive one. I can tell him that the member for Algoma-Manitoulin has been working on these particular matters, and obviously it is imperative that Ontario Hydro is sensitive to some of these realities and giving time to adjust.

As I understand it, and again I just cannot recall the information at my fingertips, some of these contracts are coming up for renewal in the not-too-distant future and that is why we are going to have to go through the entire matter. But I can assure my honourable friend this government will respond in every way it can.

I just see by accident that the mayor of Kirkland Lake is in the gallery today. I am sure he would be the first one to tell the member that when he had troubles in that area, the closedown of the mines in Temagami and the Kirkland Lake area, this government responded with a number of programs of diversification.

We want to be very, very sensitive to the communities that are subjected to these kinds of problems. I know I can count on my honourable friend’s advice and help along the way as we develop these alternative strategies.

CHILDREN’S MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mrs Cunningham: My question is to the Minister of Community and Social Services. He knows that in the field of children’s mental health we have had waiting lists now for over two or three years for some 10,000 young children. Right now in Ontario, the mental health centres are telling us that these children have been subjected to abuse, that they have been subjected to family violence, that they are having trouble mentally and that they really desperately need our help.

They have a right to treatment. Right now, if they were looking for health services like fixing a broken leg or cancer treatment, they would get that service right away. But they are not getting service for what is called a mental health problem, and they do not have the kind of access we would like them to have -- 10,000 children, over three years; what is the minister deciding to do about it? We need a plan of action now.

Hon Mr Beer: I thank my honourable friend for her question. There is a great deal that the ministry and the government are doing in working in the broad range of children’s services, and I think it is awfully important in looking at the problems in the children’s mental health area that we recognize there are problems throughout the children’s services area and the way we are going to resolve those is by bringing all the players together and coming forward with a comprehensive approach.

For this reason my predecessor created a special advisory committee on children’s services, which is meeting and will be bringing in a report. It is chaired by Dr Colin Maloney. That committee is looking at particular problems in the children’s mental health area, in the children’s welfare area, young offenders across that broad spectrum. I have met with the executive of the Ontario Association of Children’s Mental Health Centres. We have looked at a number of specific things that we can work on in the interim.

I have agreed that once Dr Maloney’s report is completed, I would be quite prepared to sit down with them and look at how we can go about moving on the recommendations of the Maloney report.

Mrs Cunningham: I understand that the minister is meeting and having discussions around the Maloney report. I guess my plea today would be to speed it up. While we are talking about what we already know, and have known for some three years right now, there are more children added to waiting lists right across Ontario.

I can speak specifically for Madam Vanier Children’s Services in London -- which the Premier should know something about, and certainly the member for London South -- and I can speak on behalf of other members of this House, as it has been brought to their attention by the children’s mental health centres in their own areas.

I guess my question right now would be, when is the minister going to finish his discussions with Mr Maloney? What we really need is an overhaul of the system with new mandates for children’s mental health. When will he do it and when can we expect a brand-new review independent of the one that is going on now?

Hon Mr Beer: One of the specific things we are doing with the children’s mental health association is working together very directly on the question of the waiting lists to see how we can assist various centres with the waiting lists and perhaps have people treated in other centres. We are also looking at some specific problems around funding and around the salaries of people who work in those centres.

I will be receiving the Maloney report in June, and we want to move fairly quickly with that report precisely because it is going to be looking at the broad area. We have asked that all of the major players work together and work with us so we can go forward in implementing recommendations from that report, because I think it is clearly in all of our interests to try to provide the best help for all children who require mental health services.

ST ELIZABETH NURSING HOME

Ms Oddie Munro: My question is to the Minister of Labour. The St Elizabeth Nursing Home, in my riding, is due to close in August of this year. The nursing home was taken over by the Ministry of Health in 1987 and subsequently three local nursing homes were awarded replacement licences to relocate the residents.

The question of staff relocation is not settled and is resulting in frustration and fears among the workers. The workers are represented by the Ontario Nurses’ Association and Local 532 of the Service Employees’ International Union. It has been reported that Local 532 is applying to the Ontario Labour Relations Board for succession rights. Would the minister provide me with an update on this representation to the labour relations board?

Hon Mr Phillips: I know this is a matter of some considerable interest to the member, so I would be pleased to give her an update on the situation as I understand it.

I believe that last week the union did apply to the Ontario Labour Relations Board under the appropriate sections, as well as, I am told, under the Successor Rights (Crown Transfers) Act. I think the member would appreciate that because this is now before the Ontario Labour Relations Board, a labour relations officer will be appointed shortly to deal with the matter. That now is a matter that the labour relations board will be taking under consideration. As of last week, the union had brought that proposal forward to the labour relations board. It is now in their hands.

Ms Oddie Munro: I understand the need for confidentiality in allowing the board to pursue its own procedures. However, I understand that there is an obstacle in terms of being able to act proactively, and that is that applications may be accepted only after the transfers have taken place. Could the minister clarify for me the rules governing the timing of applications for succession rights in these or similar circumstances?

Hon Mr Phillips: I believe that both the Labour Relations Act and the successor rights act provide that in the event of a sale of a business or transfer undertaken within the meaning of the acts, any existing collective agreement and/or bargaining right should continue in force until the appropriate tribunal declares otherwise.

I know that the member’s concern is around the rights of the employees, and if in fact they fall within the meaning of the appropriate, relevant sections of the act, those collective agreements would continue in force until the appropriate tribunal has made its decision.

HYDRO RATES

Mr Pouliot: My question is to the Minister of Energy. The minister will recall vividly that Robert Franklin, one of his friends down here at Ontario Hydro, the chairperson of Ontario Hydro, announced last week that Hydro rates for Ontario consumers nine months from now, on 1 January 1991, will go up by a minimum of 12 per cent.

An increase of this magnitude has nothing short of a devastating effect on the people of the north. It hurts the people of the north, it hurts their economy, it hurts their future. When will the minister take the responsibility and stop this unfair gouging at the expense of northerners?

Hon Mrs McLeod: I am aware of the reference the honourable member makes to a speech that the chairman of Ontario Hydro gave in which he indicated that rate increases could be as high as 12 per cent for 1991, but I want to inform the honourable member and the House that Ontario Hydro has not in fact tabled its rate increase proposals for 1991 with me. At the point in time at which they do that, and I would expect that to be by the end of April, we will refer that to the Ontario Energy Board for its review of the various factors that would have to be considered. It would be appropriate for me to comment more specifically at that time.

Mr Pouliot: Humour becomes the minister. The sad reality is that Ontario Hydro can do pretty well whatever it wishes. For instance, last year the Ontario Energy Board, which she referred to, recommended 3.6 per cent for electricity rates, yet the taxpayers of Ontario paid a full 5.9 per cent. Because of climatic conditions in northern Ontario and because of the rate structure in northern Ontario, the rates are often double what they are in southern Ontario -- a double standard indeed.

Who is running the rate structure in Ontario? Is it the jackals whose appetites are insatiable, down the line on University Avenue, or is it the Premier of Ontario with the cabinet? Who is boss here?

Hon Mrs McLeod: I would certainly contest the suggestion that Ontario Hydro can do whatever it wants in terms of its rate increases. Ontario Hydro is mandated by the Power Corporation Act to provide power at the cost of providing that power. In fact, the record has been one of considerable success in providing power at quite reasonable rates.

However, I think there are some realities that we have to recognize in the set of rate increases that may be proposed. One of those realities is certainly the goods and services tax, which has been introduced by the federal government. This will mean that electricity will be taxed for the first time, and the cost of this tax will have to be incorporated in the rates that are charged for electricity in Ontario.

That is obviously a concern to us, and the effect that it has on an increase in electricity rates, not just in northern Ontario but across the province, because we recognize that reasonable rates for our electricity are important to our economy both in northern Ontario and in southern Ontario.

PESTICIDES

Mr J. M. Johnson: My question is to the Minister of the Environment. I understand that the ministry is on the verge of proclaiming new regulations to Ontario’s Pesticides Act which would impose major conditions on the storage and transportation of all pesticides in Ontario. If the government is so open, why would the minister refuse to consult with farm organizations that represent a major sector of Ontario’s professional pesticide users, such as AgCare, Agricultural Groups Concerned About Resources and the Environment?

Hon Mr Bradley: When developing any regulation changes, particularly those that relate to the Pesticides Act, we are always made aware by people who are interested in it of the opinions they happen to have on these matters. I get communications from time to time from a variety of people, including those in the farming community, as to what they believe should be done in the future, the direction in which they feel we should be moving.

In addition, of course, we have the Pesticides Advisory Committee, which has a representative from the agricultural community and which also consults with people in the agricultural community. I think representatives from the University of Guelph, for instance, are involved in many items related to agriculture and are familiar and in contact with the farming community. I am always interested in those opinions and would encourage people to bring those opinions forward.

Mr J. M. Johnson: Jeff Wilson, the chairman of AgCare, an organization which represents 45,000 producers, requested a meeting with the minister last spring. They are also waiting for written confirmation of the minister’s oral commitment of 17 April 1989 on mandatory certification for users of agricultural pesticides. Does the minister want their input? Does he have any intention of meeting with AgCare?

Hon Mr Bradley: As the member may be aware, the relevant people within the ministry on many occasions meet with the people who have specific concerns about specific regulations, specifically those who are involved in the branch of the Ministry of the Environment that deals with pesticides. I know they have ongoing meetings with a number of people who bring forward their concerns to people directly involved in the drafting of those regulations or their suggestions on what might be in those regulations. We certainly encourage them to do so.

In terms of the member’s other question, our ministry has certainly given that undertaking. I was very pleased to see the kind of support from the farming community, particularly for that mandatory aspect of dealing with that problem, because I have recognized that in so many cases -- and the member, representing an area which has a large agricultural component, would know -- many of those people have been most helpful in encouraging others within that community to be more conscious of the potential problems with pesticides and indeed have been some of the best people in terms of assisting us in that regard.

HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mrs Stoner: My question is to the Minister of Health. The Ajax-Pickering community has grown very rapidly to a population that is now over 100,000 people and is served by a hospital which has not seen substantial improvements since 1964, when the population was 33,000 people. I am sure the minister knows there is a great deal of support in the community for the expansion of that hospital, an expansion to meet the needs of the 1990s. The Durham Region District Health Council has indicated that the Ajax and Pickering General Hospital expansion is its number one priority. Can the minister reaffirm for the families of Ajax and Pickering the status of the hospital expansion?

Hon Mrs Caplan: First, I would like to acknowledge the member for Durham West as she has been an active representative on behalf of her constituency in making sure that the needs of her community are well known.

I would like to make it clear that the $14.7-million commitment from the Ministry of Health stands. We are aware that the Durham district health council has identified the expansion of Ajax-Pickering as its number one priority for Durham region. As the member knows and as she says quite correctly, the region has experienced rapid growth, particularly of young families, over the past few years. I want to say to her that, as part of the ministry’s capital framework, we acknowledge the need to strengthen hospital services to meet future demographic growth projections.

Mrs Stoner: I thank the minister for clarifying the situation with the hospital.

One of the things that has happened recently was an

article in the local newspaper which stated that the 70 long-term care beds which were part of the hospital expansion had been cut from the plans. I would like to know, what is the status of long-term care for Ajax and Pickering and for Ontario, and how we will meet the needs of our elderly and chronically ill in the future?

Hon Mrs Caplan: The Ministry of Health, together with the Ministry of Community and Social Services, the Office for Disabled Persons and the Office for Senior Citizens’ Affairs, is participating in long-term care reform in order to ensure that appropriate services are delivered in communities across this province in the best possible setting, whether that be in the hospital, in the institution, in the community or in people’s homes.

As the member mentioned, I believe a real opportunity exists for Durham region to make the kinds of decisions which will lead us all confidently into the next century. There have been numerous consultations and, after discussion with the district health council and the hospital, an agreement was reached to defer construction of the 70 long-term care beds pending the outcome of long-term care reform.

I repeat that the capital commitment of $14.7 million stands firm and that we are committed to meeting the needs of the people of Durham region.

INMATES’ MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES

Mr Farnan: My question is to the Minister of Health. The minister’s responsibility is to ensure the proper health care of all the residents of Ontario. Does she, as minister, know the percentage of mentally ill inmates or inmates with psychiatric disorders requiring treatment who are being currently housed in our detention centres and provincial jails and who are not getting adequate psychiatric care?

Hon Mrs Caplan: As the member opposite has referred to people who have been confined to correctional institutions, I would refer this matter quite properly to the Minister of Correctional Services.

Mr Farnan: The minister cannot --

The Speaker: I do not see the minister. Was that your answer? Well, supplementary to the answer

Mr Farnan: The minister cannot refer this issue to the Minister of Correctional Services. Union studies estimate that 20 to 25 per cent of inmates in provincial jails are actually mentally ill and not receiving the treatment they require. When will this Minister of Health recognize that incarceration without proper treatment simply means the warehousing of sick people getting sicker? And when will she as the minister refuse to be a partner in the coverup and the neglect of the health needs of these inmates? When will she demand that these inmates receive the treatment they require?

Hon Mrs Caplan: As the member opposite knows, it is not within the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Health to decide when a person is sentenced to a correctional institution; a psychiatrist recommends whether a person should be referred for inpatient treatment or to a mental health centre. He knows also that the courts decide whether persons are sentenced to jail or whether they are sent to psychiatric hospitals People in psychiatric hospitals are not inmates; they are patients.

HANDGUN REPLICAS

Mr Sterling: I have a question of the Solicitor General. It concerns replica handguns. An Ottawa city councillor, Darrel Kent, is proposing a bylaw to present to an Ottawa council meeting next week which is similar to a bylaw that they have here in the city of Toronto, which was implemented in January.

That bylaw bans the manufacture, sale and distribution of replica handguns.

As the minister knows, Canadian police chiefs have been lobbying for this kind of legislation for some period of time. Why are municipalities having to bring forward their own bylaws instead of this government taking some action with regard to this matter in provincial legislation? Will this government call up for third reading my colleague’s bill, Bill 145, limiting the sale of replica handguns, as it is now in front of the Legislature?

Hon Mr Offer: The member opposite raises a very important issue. I am well aware of the member’s piece of legislation, and it is certainly one which I have been looking at very closely. I think we have to recognize, in dealing with the particular piece of legislation, what its object is, what it is designed to accomplish. Currently there are provisions within the Criminal Code of Canada which very much would address many of the concerns raised in the member’s private piece of legislation.

I think the member opposite should also be aware that this matter is very much within the scope and the jurisdiction of the federal government. Currently it is a matter which I believe could be best addressed and handled by the federal Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, and the whole question of how these particular items are in the area of packaging.

But I would like to indicate that it is one we have looked at, that the Criminal Code of Canada currently does address much of the issue that is in the private member’s bill, and I believe that is the best place and the most appropriate venue for this particular issue to be addressed.

The Speaker: That completes the allotted time for oral questions and responses.

HOCKEY CHAMPIONSHIP

Mr Sterling: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: Since yesterday was a very historic event in the history of Canada, I was amazed today that the Minister of Tourism and Recreation did not congratulate our Canadian hockey team on winning the World Cup for Women. I would like to ask unanimous consent of the Legislature to make a statement at this time.

The Speaker: Members of the House, I know you listened carefully to the member for Carleton. Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

Mr Sterling: On Saturday evening and yesterday afternoon, I had one of the most enjoyable afternoons and evenings in watching hockey that I have experienced over a long period of time. On Saturday evening, Team Canada played the all-women’s team from Finland. Canada won that game by a score of six to five and earned a berth in the finals on Sunday afternoon. On Sunday afternoon, as many people know, some 9,000 people from the city of Ottawa and the surrounding areas went to witness at the Civic Centre a tremendous game between the Canadian team and the United States team.

The game, I must tell you, Mr Speaker, is in many ways superior to the men’s hockey as you and I would know it and have watched it many times in our local arenas. My experience with the tournament in both games is that it is not marred by the same degree of violence which is exhibited in men’s hockey, that that the feeling with regard to the game being a game, for fun and for the exhibition of skill not only was exhibited on the ice but was actually felt in the crowd by the people who were sitting in the stands near me and throughout the arena in Ottawa.

I want to congratulate the Canadian team on its tremendous show throughout the tournament, I want to congratulate all of the participants on the tremendous show of sportswomanship and I also want to thank all of the sponsors and the people who have put forward a tremendous amount of energy in organizing this first World Cup. I only hope that some of the professional men who play this sport will take some of their lessons from the exhibitions which we saw over the weekend. I believe that this tournament will now grow and will encourage many of the women of our country and our province to become more involved with this tremendous sport.

I congratulate, on behalf of my party, all of the women on Team Canada on their tremendous victory yesterday afternoon. They represented Canada in the best possible way.

Hon Ms Hart: It is not usual that I get to stand up and talk about an area of activity which is not usually encompassed within culture, but I would argue that sport definitely comes within culture. That is why I am very pleased and happy to stand here in my place today to join with my colleague the member for Carleton to congratulate Team Canada on its spectacular win.

I cannot say that I am always an avid follower of the sports broadcasts in the morning, but today, because of the traffic, I just happened to catch some of the commentators and what they said about this game. One of them caught my attention particularly. He said -- and I emphasize “he” -- it was “an almost perfect game.”

It is not very often that we hear that in any field of endeavour. The members of Team Canada and all of those people who brought this game to the fore so it is now in the forefront of international sport can be proud. On behalf of my party and on behalf of all of those in my caucus, I would like to say congratulations to Team Canada for a game very well played. We look forward to great things in the future from this team.

Mr R. F. Johnston: I watched the Finnish game and the American game on TV on the weekend and enjoyed them thoroughly. I thought it was wonderful. It was a great experience for Ottawa. It was a wonderful start for women’s World Cup hockey worldwide, I thought. The whole tenor of it was tremendous.

I think it is really interesting that here we are celebrating Agnes Macphail, as we did today, and then as an afterthought -- and I thank the member for Carleton for doing that -- we are celebrating this win by a national team. If we think about how many times members in this House rise to celebrate a local male team that has done well internationally and also to celebrate national victories from time to time of men’s hockey, it is interesting that we had to do this as an afterthought, but undeniably have to do it.

When you watched the television, you saw Ken Dryden being absolutely effusive about the style of play and Howie Meeker being apoplectically delighted with the fact they were not just dumping the puck in and chasing it. There were wonderful skills shown in terms of passing and skating in the game. It was really sort of everybody being surprised.

One might wonder why they were surprised when hundreds of women’s hockey teams have been existing in this province now for years and years, and there is a good organization as well in the province of Quebec. I would just hope that this celebration and this recognition finally of women’s development in the field of hockey might move itself on to the Olympic sphere. Although we will not get it in the next Olympics, I would hope that the games thereafter will include women’s hockey, because the quality of play and the excitement that was engendered were just splendid to watch. I do not watch hockey much any more these days but I actually watched both games on the weekend.

Hon R. F. Nixon: This is the fifth anniversary of the dissolution of the House advised by Premier Miller. I am rather surprised that the honourable members in the third party did not want unanimous consent to bring this to public attention.

MOTIONS

COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP

Mr Offer moved that Mr D. R. Cooke be added as a member of the standing committee on administration of justice, that Mrs E. J. Smith be substituted for Mr D. R. Cooke on the standing committee on estimates and that Mr Epp be added as a member of the select committee on constitutional and intergovernmental affairs.

Motion agreed to.

PETITIONS

CARDIOVASCULAR CARE

Mr D. R. Cooke: I have a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario. It deals with the death of 23-month-old Joel Bondy and was circulated by the Canadian Auto Workers, Local 444. It resolves that:

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly of Ontario as follows:

“That the Minister of Health immediately set up an independent public inquiry to thoroughly investigate the health care circumstances which contributed to Joel Bondy’s death; and that the government of Ontario and the Minister of Health seriously address the heart surgery waiting list, the critical care nursing shortage and the absence of a cardiac surgical unit in Windsor and Essex county.”

It is signed by 3,600 people and myself from the Windsor area.

TRAFFIC SIGNALS

Mr Cousens: In the presence of Dennis Robbins from my riding, and to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“Whereas the absence of traffic signals on Highway 7 at the entrance of Union Villa and the shops of Unionville Plaza in the town of Markham poses a serious threat to pedestrian and driver safety, we request that the Ministry of Transportation move immediately to install traffic signals at the abovementioned location so as to safely alternate a right of way between conflicting flows of vehicle and pedestrian traffic.’’

I have over 500 signatures that have been picked up by Mr Robbins, and indeed we need a traffic light there. Maybe this is one way of getting the Ministry of Transportation to do so.

WASTE MANAGEMENT

Mr D. W. Smith: I have a petition to the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislature of Ontario, and it is from the residents of the county of Lambton regarding their concern about the responsibility of each municipality to officially deal with its own waste management. There are approximately 1,730 names on this petition and I will affix my name to the bottom of it.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr D. S. Cooke: I have another petition to the Legislative Assembly of the province of Ontario.

“We, the undersigned, hereby register our concern and protest over the exclusion of permanent mental disorders in the threshold definition of the new Ontario Motorist Protection Plan.

“We respectfully request that the Legislature consider amendment of this proposed threshold definition to recognize the potential for permanent mental disorders resulting from a traumatic event such as an auto accident. To omit mental illness from the definition is discriminatory and implies that the resulting damages are neither substantive nor acceptable.”

This is signed by 2,870 people, making a total between this petition and the last one of 6,470 people from the Windsor area who are fed up with this Liberal government.

SECURITY IN PREMISES USED BY PUBLIC

Mr Sterling: I have a petition to the Lieutenant Governor.

“We request that the Ministry of the Attorney General withdraw Bill 149,

An Act to amend the Trespass to Property Act, which we believe is unnecessary and without mandate.

“While we respect the rights of minorities and youth, whom Bill 149 alleges to protect, we oppose the way in which the proposed legislation will erode the ability of owners and occupiers to provide a safe and hospitable environment for their patrons or customers. We are further concerned about the legislation’s potential for increasing confrontation in the already difficult process of removing individuals who create disturbances on publicly used premises.”

This petition includes 570 names added to the 2,978 names that have already been on a petition. This brings the total to 3,548 who oppose Bill 149, the amendment to the Trespass to Property Act.

TRANSMISSION LINE

Mr D. W. Smith: I have a petition to the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario from 414 residents from the village of Alvinston. This community has approximately 568 electors. They are petitioning and they are concerned about the proposal by Ontario Hydro to route or reroute a high voltage transmission line through their community. They feel strongly that adverse health effects may result from such a powerful transmission line in their community. I have affixed my name to the bottom of that one as well.

Mr Laughren: Did Lorne Henderson sign it?

The Speaker: Probably. Are there any other petitions?

REPORT BY COMMITTEE

STANDING COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT

Mr Laughren from the standing committee on resources development presented the following report and moved its adoption:

Your committee begs to report the following bill as amended.

Bill 208,

An Act to amend the Occupational Health and Safety Act and the Workers’ Compensation Act.

The Speaker: Shall the report be received and adopted? You have some comments?

Mr Laughren: I do indeed have a few comments to make on the reporting of this very important piece of legislation back to the chamber. Members will recall -- although perhaps not a lot of other people will -- that this bill was referred out to the standing committee on resources development at the end of the last session, before the adjournment, at least for the break, and the committee was given the task of holding public hearings across the province.

We did indeed hold public hearings in January and February in Toronto, but also in Hamilton, St Catharines, London, Kitchener, Windsor, Ottawa, Kingston, Thunder Bay, Dryden, Sudbury, Sault Ste Marie and Timmins. When the bill was referred to the committee, part of the reference was that it would be reported back to this assembly on 26 March, which of course is today. I know the Speaker knows that.

I must say that because it was such a contentious bill, the scheduling was very difficult and very competitive. There were more than twice as many persons and organizations that wanted to make representations to the committee as were able to be scheduled, given the limitations on time that the committee had.

I am sure I speak for other members of the committee when I pay tribute to the clerk of the committee, Lynn Mellor, for the work she did in scheduling the best that could be done. Of course, I would be remiss if I did not also express my appreciation for the very special assistance that the committee had from the Ontario Federation of Labour in lining up the groups and helping us resolve any kinds of conflicts as to who should make presentations from the various unions and so forth. That was extremely helpful to us.

Our research assistant, Lorraine Luski, who prepared summaries of the presentations was right on top of it right to the very end, even though there was not much time to prepare the

summary between the public hearings and the time that the clause-by-clause debate started. Finally, in terms of expressing appreciation, Tim Millard from the Ministry of Labour was of enormous assistance during the clause-by-clause debate when we were very much involved in the specifics of the bill.

The debate itself during the public hearings was extremely vigorous and sometimes angry. The committee members, I thought, dealt with the very vigorous debate extremely well, took their task very seriously and worked extremely hard as we travelled the province and then engaged in the clause-by-clause debate.

There is a very clear difference between management and labour over this issue of workplace health and safety. There seems to be not much difference over the basic principle that health and safety in the workplace should be controlled by the people there, namely management and labour, and not by an army of inspectors from the Ministry of Labour or any other ministry, namely, that the whole principle that was established under the Ham report 10 years ago, called the internal responsibility system, should be maintained but that in its present form it is not working properly and there needs to be some very fundamental changes to the legislation.

Everyone agrees or seems to agree that they want the internal responsibility system to work because only then are the people who have the most at stake the ones who are controlling conditions in the workplace. The alternative, as I said, to the internal responsibility system seems to be unacceptable to virtually everyone, but agreement on the principle of the internal responsibility system does not mean that there is an agreement on how to make the internal responsibility system work better.

The labour movement understands very well what is at stake, namely, the lives of its membership, and it is not an exaggeration to say that. Therefore the labour movement quite understandably says that since it is its membership whose lives are at stake, that is who should control workplace conditions, namely, the people who have the biggest stake.

There is no question that it is not working properly now. Since the existing legislation came into effect 10 years ago, there have been roughly 2,500 workers who have died on the job in Ontario and about four million workers injured on the job. If we project that number into the next 10 years, there is no reason under the present situation why those numbers will not be identical; we will lose 2,500 more workers who will die on the job in the next 10 years and four million more workers will get injured on the job in the next 10 years.

Surely to goodness in a jurisdiction as prosperous and, if I dare say it, as sophisticated as Ontario, that is intolerable. That is completely unacceptable. We must move heaven and earth to make sure that changes.

I am indebted to the Ontario Federation of Labour for some of the statistics it brought forward to the committee and I would like to place some of those on the record because I think they are extremely important.

If you translate the number of deaths on the job, it means that one worker dies on the job, on average, every working day in the province of Ontario. Up to the end of November 1989 there had been 339 worker death claims filed with the Workers’ Compensation Board and, out of those, 272 had been recognized. Until the end of November 1989, again, there had been approximately 434,000 injury claims that had been submitted to the board. That is 1,800 workplace injuries every working day in Ontario in 1989 and 227 every working hour.

More disturbing than the bald numbers is the trend. Despite the fact that we have had this legislation in place for 10 years, despite the fact that there was general agreement in principle on the internal responsibility system, the trend of injuries and deaths on the job is extremely disturbing.

Since 1979 serious lost-time claims have increased more than 30 per cent. Since 1979 the number of permanent disability claims have increased more than 100 per cent. Members should think about that for a moment. The number of permanent disability claims, which means that a worker has a lifetime disability, has increased more than 100 per cent.

Surely it is completely unacceptable to have serious claims increase by 100 per cent in the last 10 years when you would think that matters would be improving, not deteriorating. I think most of the members on the committee, having seen those numbers and having listened to the way they were presented, understand very well that something must be done.

It simply cannot be tolerated to have serious claims increase by 100 per cent in the last 10 years. You would have to be optimistic not to say, “What is going to stop them from increasing by the same percentage in the next 10 years?” There is no evidence, but in 1979 there was no evidence that serious injury claims were going to increase by 100 per cent in the following 10 years either.

I am talking about injuries. There was a report a number of years ago dealing with occupational diseases. Dr Annalee Yassi did some work for Paul Weiler when he was doing work on compensation and her estimate is that the number of deaths due to industrial diseases is grotesquely underestimated and that indeed there may be as many as 6,000 deaths every year due to industrial diseases in the province of Ontario that are something not recognized as industrial diseases.

There is much to be done. It is not as though the legislation, in some cases, is not in place; it is.

Listen to these disturbing statistics too: 78 per cent of workplaces were violating one or more sections of the Occupational Health and Safety Act -- by the way, these statistics come from the minister’s own advisory council in its 8th annual report, volume 2 -- seven per cent of employers with more than 20 workers had not established a joint committee, which is the mechanism under which the internal responsibility system is to work; 34 per cent of employers with designated substances with less than 20 workers had not established a joint committee required by the regulations; 30 to 40 per cent of workplaces with designated substances had not carried out an assessment of worker exposure or implemented a control program, required by the regulations; 35 per cent of the worker members on the joint committees had been selected by the employer in direct violation of the act; 40 per cent of worker members and 20 per cent of management members of joint committees had no training in occupational health and safety.

The existing legislation is simply not working appropriately and it is not being enforced appropriately, so something simply must be changed.

Because of numbers such as those and because the stakes are so extremely high, passions run very high when we talk about occupational health and safety in the province of Ontario. I shall not forget the sight of people making presentations before the committee and recalling an incident that happened in which a friend and co-worker had died, barely being able to continue as the tears came as they recalled how their colleague and friend had been killed on the job.

I think it had a profound effect on members of the committee. It certainly did on me. Sometimes those tears became angry as well and they were not simply tears; they were tears of frustration and tears of anger as people remembered how some of their colleagues had been killed in some cases, needlessly as well.

As well I shall not forget the pictures brought forward to the committee of underground toilet facilities in the mines in northern Ontario. Those pictures were reminiscent not even of the 19th century; they were reminiscent of working conditions you might expect in the 17th or 18th centuries in our underground mines. To have facilities such as those, to say the least, is demeaning to people who work in our underground facilities in Ontario. There simply have to be some changes.

There was a great deal of anger caused, I believe -- I feel fairly certain about this -- by the way in which the bill was brought to the public hearings and into the public hearings process. It was the fact that the previous Minister of Labour had presented a bill the labour movement felt it could accept, not without some misgivings, not without a lot of gnashing of teeth to accept some things it did not like and not without concerns because the public sector was not appropriately protected, even under the original act, but then when the new minister came in and made his proposed amendments, there really was a state of shock and anger across the province about what had happened.

People felt betrayed by the process because they had every reason to believe that the bill in its original form would be what the committee would be dealing with and what they would be making presentations on. So it is not hard to understand why there is a lot of passion around the issue of health and safety, and in particular around Bill 208, given the process that occurred and the sense of betrayal by many people in the labour movement out there.

Also it was not helped, quite frankly, by some of the language used by some of the presentations, particularly from the construction industry, that used some ill-advised language in talking about “irresponsible workers.” That simply does not add to the working of the internal responsibility system. I do not know how you work with an employer who uses words like those. I know I would have enormous difficulty.

There was very real concern about the whole question of protection of public sector workers. The example was used again and again that if an ambulance driver knew for certain that an ambulance was not safe because of its brakes or steering, for example, under the bill he would not have the right to refuse to drive that ambulance. That surely is ridiculous. We are talking about protecting not only the worker but the person who will be transported in the ambulance. So there simply must be changes in the parts of the legislation that deal with the public sector.

It is unacceptable to treat the public sector as second class citizens. Those are our employees and we must look after them appropriately.

I do not intend to speak long this afternoon, but it is time for a new era in health and safety in the province. I quite frankly do not know if the new health and safety agency this bill will establish will usher in a new era; I think it is too early to say at this point. I desperately hope that it does. I recall that when the existing legislation was brought in 10 years ago, there was an enormous sense of urgency to it and it became a priority. Everybody put a lot of work into creating the original bill that created the system we have now.

No less an effort must be put into making this change because it really is just as important, if not more important, because everyone thought that what was put in place 10 years ago was a major breakthrough and would solve a lot of problems. We have seen from the statistics I just presented that it has not solved all those problems.

Even though there is an agreement that the model is going in the right direction, the internal responsibility system, it has not resolved the problems. Therefore, that internal responsibility system simply must be beefed up. It must be given more muscle by the people who have the most at stake, the workers on the job.

That simply must be done, but it is going to require an enormous effort on the part of the ministry to make that happen and to get back some of the goodwill that was lost through the process of jerking around people when the government changed the bill from the original Bill 208 to the present Bill 208. There has to be some work done to gain back some goodwill because otherwise there is going to be enormous suspicion and mistrust around the process. I really believe there is too much at stake to allow that to happen.

When you think about it, what higher priority should there be than the protection of those people who create the wealth in our society? We laud them for the work they do, we are pleased that they have plugged into the system and are out there working and creating real wealth, but then we do not adequately protect them when they do so. We simply must set a higher priority into protecting those people.

We need what I would call a three-pronged approach to the protection of workers in the province of Ontario. We need to put more emphasis on prevention -- this should be the mechanism for doing that -- more emphasis on income protection and maintenance when an accident does occur and more effort into rehabilitation of people who do get injured.

I would put to the minister that the proper mechanism for that is a universal sickness and accident system based on the model that is now in existence in New Zealand. It may be that we would need to adapt it to the particular needs of Ontario because we are different, we are a more industrialized society than New Zealand and our population is greater, but it could be that the present system is outdated and inappropriate.

I do not know; it is beyond me how anyone can establish the cause of some deaths. Yet, to be a claim before the Workers’ Compensation Board, you must establish the fact that it is related to the job. I would put to the members that very often that is simply impossible to do. When it is in doubt, it is not considered a legitimate claim. We simply must move to a new model of health and safety. I know that this bill does