November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1791 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Monday, November 24, 2003 1:30 p.m. Date: 2003/11/24 [The Speaker in the chair] head : Prayers The Speaker: Good afternoon. Let us pray . As we begin our deliberations in the L egislature today, we ask You, O God, to surround us with the insight we need to do Your will to the benefit of our province and its people and to the benefit of our country. Amen. Hon. members, on Saturday last Mr.

Paul Lorieau led over 58,000 people in the singing of Canada’s national anthem before a national and international television audience from Alberta’s capital city of Edmonton. He’s with us here today, and we’ll invite him to lead all of us in the singing of our national anthem. Please participate in the language of your choice. Hon. Members: O Canada, our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, We stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free!

O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. The Speaker: I might add that Mr. Lorieau looked well attired the other day with a toque and a tuxedo. Please be seated. head : Introducti on of Visit ors The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Community Development. Mr. Zwozd esky: Thank you.

In a fe w minutes I wi ll delive r a special ministerial statement regarding the now m uch-revered and famous Molson Canadi an Heritage Classic, but in lead-up to that statement it is my great pleasure to first introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly today five outstanding individu- als who helped dream, organize, and implement the most memorable hockey event in t he history of the g ame. They are seated in your gallery, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask each one of them to rise as I call their name and to please remain standing. Given that Mr.

Paul Lorieau’s now famous singing of O Canada has taken place, I know our guests feel right at home. The 25th anniversary of the national anthem as sung by Mr. Lorieau was of course enhanced by a special arrangement by another famou s Edmonto nian, M r. George Blondheim. So I want to salute you as well, Mr. Lorieau. Now, our special guests are the chairman of the Molson Canadian Heritage Classic, Mr. Doug Goss; the president of the Edmonton Oilers, Mr. Patrick LaForge; the vice-president of marketing for the Edmonton Oilers, M r. Allan Watt; the project m anager fo r the Molson Canadian Heritage Classic, Mr.

Nick Wilson; and, finally, Mr. Speaker, the man w ho personally talked W ayne Gretzky into doing this Molson Canadian Heritage Classic, general manager and Oiler hockey great himself Mr. Kevin Lowe. Please welcome all of our special guests. head : Introduction of G uests The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Gaming. Mr. Stevens: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you and through you to other members of the Ass embly 18 very special pe ople who ar e located in the Speaker’s gallery. They are all members of the board of ALSA, the Alberta Liquor Store Associat ion.

T his past September we cele- brated here in the province the 10th anniversary of privatization of liquor retailing. It was in January 1994 that th e predecessor of ALSA was established, and a gentleman and a lady that I will be introducing are very instrumental in the success that we have had in the province in increasing the number of stores from just over 200 to about 1,000.

I would ask the folks t o rise and rem ain standing as I ca ll their names: John S zumlas, Jim Bell, Ja nice Chom ik, Kirk Frandsen, Joanne Leipert , Debbie Boy ko, Laura Wright, Bill Hull, Greg Krischke, Murray Einhorn, Randy Dawson, Bruce W ebster, John Dong, Lynn Pre fontaine, Marvin T kach, Ric k Crook, D oug Mulholland, and Michael Tarkowski. I would ask the Assembly to now give the appropriate recognition to our guests. The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Justice and Attorney General. Mr. Hancock: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure today to introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly 24 grade 6 students f rom Ear l Buxton sc hool in the Edm onton- Whitemud co nstituency. They’re accom panied today by their teacher, Mrs. Donna Spooner, who, I understand, was a page in this Assembly in earlier years, and by parents Mrs. Winkelaar and Mr. Larry Nikiforuk. They’re here today to observe and learn with keen interest about government.

They’re seated in the members’ gallery, and before I ask them to stand, I’d also like to ack nowledge their teacher, Andrea Berg, who was to be with them today but couldn’t be with t hem. I wo uld a sk the m t o rise and recei ve the w arm welcome of the Assembly. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Calder. Mr. Rathgeber: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s my pleasure to rise today and introduce to you and through you to all members of the Assembly 17 of the finest y oung men a nd wome n from the Edmonton-Calder constituency.

They’re the grades 5 and 6 students from Coralwood academy, accompanied by their teacher, Mr. Colin Forde, and a parent helper, Dr. Neville Cas e. They ’ve toured the building. We had a brief meeting and will be meeting subsequent to their visit. I’d ask them to rise and accept the warm welcome of this Assembly. They are seated in the members’ gallery. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford. Mr. McClelland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To you and through you to members of the Assembly it’s my plea sure to introduc e 25 students from Richard Se cord elem entary school, located in the constituency of Edmonton-Rutherford. The 25 students are accom- panied by their teacher, Ms Donna Yode r, and parent helpers Jan Scammell and Mrs. Ka ren Smilski. We w elcome the students to your Legislature and hope that their day is filled full of majesty and wonder. Thank you very much for being here. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It’s my pleasure to introduce to you and to all members of the Assembly teachers Mrs. Norma Nay and Mr. Scott Markine, parents Mrs. Bhavna Ashta and Mrs. Kim Bastide, and 32 students from Tipaskan elementary school in Mill

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031792 Woods. With your permission I’d ask them to stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. 1:40 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Drayton Valley-Calmar. Rev. Abbott: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A little bit later, around 2 o’clock, a school group will be joining us. There are 14 students as well as their teacher, Corey Collwell. They’re coming from Breton high school. They’re touring our building right now, so I hope that all the MLAs will give them a big wave when they come in in a few minutes. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-West.

Ms Kryczka: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am very pleased today to introduce to you and through you to members of this Assembly 17 students. I know that they’re not in the members’ gallery. They may be on their way up to the pu blic gallery. We just had our pictures taken. A nyway, we hav e 17 students visiting from t he Calga ry Waldorf school, and with them is teacher Tonia Schmordok and also parents Mrs. Robin McLeod and Mr. Teodor Stafie. Students, if you are in the public gallery, please rise, and I would like the Assembly to give them the traditional warm welcome. The Speaker: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDon ald: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. It’s a pleasure to introduce to you and t hrough you t o all hon. m embers of this Assembly Ms Bernadette Vermaas. She is a recent recipient of the Carnegie Hero Fund Commission bronze medal for bravery. She is a resident of Edmonton-Gold Bar and w orks downtown on Jas per Avenue in her own hair salon, and I would ask her now to please rise – she’s in the public gall ery – a nd receive the traditi onal war m welcome of this Assembly. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have two sets of introductions today. The first is Mr. Gerald Zagrosh, who is the founder of the Pain Elimination and Tissue Regeneration Clinic, which uses electric stimulation to treat pain. He’s in the public gallery, and I ask him to rise. He h as brough t with him some of hi s clients who have benefited from his treatment: Mr. Walter Romaniuk, Mr. William Fleming, Ms Joan R obinson, Mr. Craig Maslin, and Mrs. Shaylee Maslin. Please give them a warm welcome. I am also pleased to introduce students from Parkview school. I’m not sure if they’re in the gallery or on tour right now.

They are 37 of the very, very finest young citizens of Alberta. They are accompa- nied by their teachers, Miss Laurie Ewald and Mrs. Aydan Kudrinko, and by parents Lori Chomyk, Reg Kozoway, and Kelly Woodward. Please give th em all a war m welcome, and if t hey’re here, w ould they please rise. head : Ministerial Statements The Speaker: The hon. Minister of Community Development. Molson Canadian Heritage Classic Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As minister responsible for sports and volunteerism and as a former hockey player and coach and manager myself I am extremely excited to rise today to recognize a truly remarkable and historic event for our city, our province, our country, and, of course, for the entire National Hockey League which occurred so very successfully this past weekend. Every winter on any day in any corner of our province enthusiasts young and old strap on their skates and take to their local pond, their local outdoor rink or arena to enjoy a game of hockey.

Whether the ice is large or small, whether the players are just learning to skate or are already seasoned professionals, the game of hockey has become an i mportant pa rt of w ho we ar e and how w e see ours elves a s Albertans and Canadians. Last Saturday our love of hockey was on display for the e ntire world to see. Mr. Speaker, nearly 60,000 cheering fans braved the cold to take pa rt in the Mols on Canadian H eritage Classi c, a celebration of hockey’s past and present and, if the f ans were any indication, a sign of even greater things to come.

The game brought together Edmonton Oilers alumni and Montreal Canadiens a lumni teams as well as current Oilers and Canadiens in a spectacular display of skill and dedication and a return to the roots of the great game of hockey. We were also treated to outst anding entertainment as presented and performed by Edmonton’s own George Blondheim and Canada’s great rocker Tom Cochrane as well as a very special performance by Paulina Gretzky and the al ready mentioned special rendition of O Canada by Paul Lorieau.

All of Edmonton and area were caught up with the celebrations, the hosting events, and the incredible displays commemorating this classic event, which yield ed an econom ic impact of about $25 million and a spiritual impact of memories that cannot be measured that surpass everything. Mr.

Speaker, the amount of work that went into these events and in the p reparation of Co mmonwealth Stadium f or the gam e is immense, and I would again like to salute our special guests in the gallery – Doug Gos s, chairman of the Molso n Canadian Heritage Classic; Patrick LaForge, president of the Edmonton Oilers; Kevin Lowe, general manager of the Edmonton Oilers; Allan Wa tt, vice- president of marketing f or the Edmonton Oile rs; Nick Wilson, project manager for the Heritag e Classi c; Don Metz , director of broadcasting for th e Oilers – all the other broadcasters, sponsors, players, coaches, trainers, ice makers, enter tainers, spectators, and fans who tuned in from around the world, and of course the fabulous team of volunteers for bringing a visi on o f this m agnitude int o reality.

Our city has much to be proud of, an d the success of this game has tru ly el evated E dmonton’s reputation a s th e Cit y of Champions. Despite the cold, there was an unbelievable spirit in the air thanks to the enth usiasm of o ur city and those v isitors f rom around the world who came to take part.

In closing, I want to a lso thank the ministe rs of G aming and Economic Development for contributing to this incredible event, and I would now invite al l members of t his Assembly to jo in me in congratulating our special guests once again and everyone who was involved in p utting on t he most incredible hockey memory in our history. We love hockey. We love Edmonton. We love Alberta. Thank you, all. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. Mr. Bonner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week the hockey world focused on E dmonton.

As t emperatures pl ummeted i n th e days leading up to the Molson C anadian Herita ge Classic, the buzz and excitement in the city continued to g row. De spite the cold, fa ns couldn’t wait for another opportunity to watch Wayne Gretzky, Guy Lafleur, and a host of other star s from the past participate in the

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1793 megastars game. Many fans came to relive memories from the past, never thinking that they would leave the stadium with a host of new memories that they will cherish for a lifetime. Over 57,000 fans crowded Commonwealth Stadium for hours in frigid temperatures to watch the games. In the megastars game they were treated to heroes from the past wearing toques and scraping the ice between periods. The smiles radiating from the benches were a clear indication of their enthusiasm and enjoyment.

After this game fans were treat ed to an other hard -fought an d ent ertaining game between the current editions of the Oilers and the Canadiens. As Canadians we have always prided ourselves on our durability when playing the game. G ames of hockey continue to be played everywhere in Canada: on ponds, on the backyard rinks, on commu- nity rinks, and in arenas. Players of all ages have assembled to play and enjoy the game. Mr. Speaker, there are many to be thanked for having a vision and for putting this great event together through their thousands of hours of hard work.

The executive and staff of the Edmonton Oilers have put their heart and soul into the Molson Canadian Heritage Classic. The Oilers or ganization is never offsi de. They are Edm onton’s pride. The city of Edmonton has proven that inclement weather did not deter their pride and support for this unique event. This event has raised Edmonton’s reputation as a great hockey town, and the fans in a true C anadian s pirit came through whe n the going got tough.

To the Oilers, the city of Edmonton, and all others involved in the organizing and planning of this great ev ent, thank y ou for the memories. head : Oral Quest ion Peri od Access to Crown Land Dr. Nicol: Mr. Speaker, last spring the Alberta government allocated over $6 million t o find a sol ution to the conf lict between First Nations communities and t he non First N ations contractors in the Slave Lake area. This conflict had resulted in roadblocks on Crown land used by the oil industry. My first question is to the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development.

What did your department do with its portion of the $6 million in trying to solve this problem? Mr. Cardinal: Mr. Speaker, you know, the $6 million is, of course, a partial solution to the challenges we had in dealing with that particular issue. It’s a very challengi ng issue. Each ministry that had the allocation, of course, had the opportunity to administer those dollars based on how the department operates and how they intend to administer the dollars to increase consultation between the First Nations, industry, and the o ilfield c ontractors.

To discus s the administrative process in this Assembly I don’t believe is the answer. The other part that the hon. leader should always remember also is that we are talking about First Nations, which is the jurisdiction of their cousins in Ottawa. What did they do? 1:50 The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Nicol: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the minister of aboriginal affairs: why didn’t you work with the federal government to get a clarification of the meaning of access to and the use of Crown land that First Nations have under their treaty rights? Ms Calahasen: Well, Mr.

Speaker, first of all, how does he know that I’m not working with the fe deral government? How does he know that? I would like to put it here that we are working with the federal government on a number of initiatives. The second issue is the access issue. The natural resources transfer agreem ent, whic h was s igned in the 1930s, gives t he government of Albe rta the rig ht to mana ge the la nd. It is ve ry important to mak e sure tha t we cont inue to do that but take into consideration, Mr.

Speaker, the aboriginal and treaty rights of First Nations, and that’s exactly what we’ve been doing on this consulta- tion initiative. It take s a long time t o be able to g et to that point . However, it is ve ry im portant, no ma tter wh at we do , tha t we continue to work with all the groups that are involved in this whole process. Dr. Nicol: My final question, again to the minister of aboriginal affairs: what did you do to remove the reason that these roadblocks came into place in the first place?

In other words, how h ave you worked with the First Nations communities to get their understand- ing of their role? Ms Calahasen: Well, Mr. Speaker, first of all, we have a number of people who have been em ployed through Ab original Affairs and Northern Development to work on the consultation initiative. That’s one component that we’ve been working on wit h the various First Nations, asking them to come to the table to be able to deal with this issue.

Secondly, I as the M inister of Aboriginal Affairs and N orthern Development have bee n working with the First N ations to ens ure that they a re aware of w hat we’ve been doi ng. I’ve be en goin g around the province on a continual basis, talking about what needed to be done, how we could do that, and requesting the involvement of the First Nations so that we can take care of their concerns relative to the aboriginal and treaty rights.

It’s very important and very key, no matter what w e do, that w e conti nue to do that, be cause this province – this provinc e – really has a bea utiful relationship with First Nations. Industrial Development in Protected Areas Dr. Nicol: Last week Tempest Resources received approval to drill two gas wells near the Ministik bird sanctuary. This sanctuary is one of North America’s largest migratory havens for waterfowl, and it also supports populations of moose, white-tailed deer, elk, and lynx.

To the Ministe r of Community Development: what is the point of natural places legislation if it won’t protect areas like the Ministik sanctuary from industrial development? Mr. Zwozdesky: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have a number of specially protected areas in this province, as members here will know, and for many of them we have management plans. I think we have about 18 on the go right now.

On the parti cular issue that he’s raising right now, if there is some violation that has occurred that he’s aware of and he wants to forward that to me, I’d be happy to look into it and see to it that that issue is resolved as quickly as p ossible. To my knowledge there haven’t been any violations in that area to date. Dr. Nicol: Again to the same minister: will the minister ensure that there will be no further industrial projects affecting the Ministik bird sanctuary? Mr. Zwozdesky: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can assure you that there is a protected a rea.

The re are r ules that g overn that pr otected area within the boundaries of that protected area. If he’s talking about something outside that boundary, then maybe he should make that a lit tle clea rer. I ca n as sure you tha t to my k nowledge there ’s nothing that’s actually happened in the sanctuary, the protected area itself.

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031794 Dr. Nicol: Again to the same minister: will the minister ensure that there are no more industrial projects in any of Alberta’s special places? Mr. Zwozdesky: Mr. Speaker, we have a com prehensive list of existing lease dispositions in some areas, and when the protected areas program was brought in, it was made very clear that we would do everything we can to honour e xisting commitments, be they to leaseholders or trappers or guides or outfitters or whatever have you.

We worked very hard through the public consultation proces s t o ensure that those particular policies and guidelines were followed, and I can assure the hon. m ember that we will continue to protect those areas within the guidelines that have been set down, approved, and been through the public consultation process. The Speaker: Third Official Opposition main question. The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Class Sizes Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Chronic underfunding of our schools has resul ted in the a verage kindergarten class in Calg ary public being five students above the average recommended by the Learning Commission. In Edmonton public almost three-quarters of the K to 3 childre n sit in sim ilar over crowded c lassrooms. M y questions are to the Minister of Learning. Given that the limited restoration money announced l ast week falls far short of the $140 million boards needed just to keep even, when will there be relief for these overcrowded five year olds? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

There are a couple of issues to that question that I will address. First of all, the hon . member is talking a bout kindergarten to g rade 3 at a level of 22 students, and I think that number really needs to be reinforced. The Learning Com mission has indeed recommended 17, and w e are looking at how we can bring those numbers down. The other key component though – he m entioned $140 million. Mr. Speaker, one of the tasks that the Learning Commission had was to take a look at the financing of education, and what they came back with was not a $140 million shortfall.

Indeed, what they actually said was that there was a $19.8 million shortfall due to the inflation- ary pressures over two years. They also said that there was about a $23 million shortfall in money that was not necessarily allocated but in money that wa s budgeted t o be alloc ated, and the y felt that it should be speede d up. There were also issues with the grade 10 CEU credits. Mr. Speaker, each and every one of those was reallocated as of last week, as the hon. m ember knows. S o I do take a little bi t of exception when people are all of a sudden calling $60 million a mere pittance. Dr.

Massey: My question is again to the same minister. Given that even with their share of the restoration money announced last week Calgary public will be short at lea st $80 m illion, how will they be able to even look at the class size targets in the commission’s report? Dr. Oberg: Well, Mr. Speaker, today there was a press release put out by the Calgary public school system. That press release said that they have balanced their budget for last year, which is indeed good news. They roughly had a surplus of about .25 percent, I believe.

In the upcoming year as their amount of dollars is actually known, is actually disc overed an d found out in the upcoming budget, Calgary public will work and, I’m sure, will do the best job they can for the students of Alberta. They’re an excellent school system and will continue to be an excellent school system. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Massey: Thank you. Again to the same minister: given that it’s now nearly two months since t he Learning Commission reported, when can pa rents expec t to se e a pla n to i mplement class size reductions in this province? Dr. Oberg : Well, Mr.

Speak er, one of the prere quisites of the Learning Commission was that there be no interference from myself, no interference from my own de partment, that it b e a completely objective report. It took the Learning Commission around 15 or 16 months to go through everything around the province. We have just received that, as the hon. member has stated. We have our processes that it will be going through, and we are on-line for the date that I initially suggested, which is the first part of December. We are on course; we ar e on-line for that.

Al l things g oing in the ri ght direction, we w ill be m aking a n announcem ent the f irst part of December. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands, followed by the hon. Member for Little Bow. Mature Animal Market Transition Program Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. This morning at long last the minister of agricu lture announced compensation for mature cows and bulls, whose worth has plummeted to cents on the dollar since the discovery of a single BSE case last May.

While it’s a bit more generous than the federal program announced last Friday, this mature cow and bul l program seems to fall short of the very generous assistance package given earlier to feedlot operators. My question is to the minister of agriculture. Why did the government come up with a program costing hundreds of millions of dollars for a small number of feedlot owners within weeks of the discovery of BSE

whereas tens of thousands of cow/calf producers have had to wait for more than six months to get only partial compensation for their losses? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, the question indicates the member’s understanding of the industry or lack thereof. Mr. Speaker, since May 20, when a single cow was found with BSE, t he whole c attle indust ry has changed s ignificantly in this province. It quickly became very apparent to us, working with the industry at our side, that we would have to manage this situation in a staged way.

The first matter was to move some 700,000, 800,000, 900,000 or therea bouts fat c attle that were in term inal feedlots. These cattle were destined for mainly export markets and, as this is a perishable item, did not have a lot of time to move. 2:00 If the hon. member understood the cattle industry, he would know that the ma rket prog ram we put in for market mat ure cattl e this morning is to dea l with ca ttle that a re no longer useful in the breeding herd. This is still a valuable product, Mr. Speaker, but it is a commercial beef product when it is not of va lue to the breedin g herd.

That generally is not established until sometime throughout the summer or fall months. In fact, culls happen, generally, heavier in the fall and the remaining cull in the spring for each year.

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1795 So to recognize this issue, Mr. Speaker, where 70 percent of that product primarily went outside of this country on an export basis, 100 percent of it now has to be in this country. We realized that we had to deal w ith a place for the p roduct, whether there was a slaughter capacity for the product, and deal with it in a manner that set the stage for the future marketing of this product. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

While I appreciate the little lecture from the minister, I w ould like to ask her why she has designed a BSE program for co w/calf producers that, w hile wel- come, appears to fall significantly short of the generosity shown to feedlot owners, who are guaranteed 90 percent of the U.S. slaughter price. Mrs. McClellan: Well, again, Mr. Speaker, before one talks about something as com plex as th e cattle industry, one should do some research into how this industry really does work.

I’m serious about that, because to suggest that the feedlot operators somehow came off with a huge profit out of this would be so very, very wrong. In fact, their losses are absolutely incredible, especially coming off last year where we had a drought and their cost for feed went up so signifi- cantly. Mr. Speaker, we have som e 38,000 farms in this province that have animals on them.

This is a big industry in this province, and we have sat down with the industry, the total industry – the trucking, packing, cow/ca lf, and f eeder ind ustries, the feedlots, the sales agents, whether they be auction markets, order buyers, whatever – in a room together week after week after week, many times day after day after day, to try and address the many, many issues facing thi s industry and to move them forwa rd into a n ew rea lity for this industry in an orderly way and in a w ay that int erfered as little as possible in the marketplace. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Mason: Thank you very m uch, Mr.

Spea ker. Well, can the minister, then, demonstrate to this House that none of the hundreds of millions of dollars in BSE compensation that has already gone out ended up benefit ing cattl e brokers , speculat ors, or m eat pack ing plants rather than cattle producers themselves? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, again, cattle producers themselves received a huge benefit from the dollars that went into the fed cattle program.

T hat w as shown very clearly if y ou sat in the auction markets this fall and watched the calf prices, which were indeed as high as last year or higher, for one reason: because ther e is a place to place those calves today which there would not have been if those hundreds of thousands of fed cattle were still there or had had to be destroyed. Mr. Speaker, the beef industry is an incredibly important industry to this province, contributing ab out 60 percent of the farm cas h receipts, contributing over 60 p ercent o f the processing ind ustry, which is huge for us.

I appreciate the hon. member’s interest in this, but to try and pick sides and decide who may or may not have won or lost in this is not a very useful discussion. The Speaker: The hon. Mem ber for L ittle Bow, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. Edmonton City Centre Airport Mr. McFarlan d: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. I thi nk it’s most appropriate today that the Molson Heritage Classic gam e was recognized earlier by the Ministe r of Com munity Developm ent.

Interestingly enough, a s outhern Albe rta air c arrier, I ntegra A ir, carried an aircraft full of f ans to watch that game on a typi cal 75- minute flight which landed directly at the Muni airport. My question is to the Ministe r of E conomic D evelopment. Conside ring the discussion this past week about the future of Edmonton’s city airport and its effect on northern Alberta, I can tell you, Mr.

Minister, and this Assembly that Lethbridge and Medicine Hat are also affected by proposed changes at the Muni, whether it’s scheduled flight services by small er air c arriers, lab exa minations, charter servic es, or medevac services, including fixed wing aircraft. Will the Minister of Economic Development advise this Assembly what’s being done to address these additional concerns that affect northern and southern Alberta? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mr. Norris: Well, thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I’d like to thank the Member for Little Bow for ask ing a g reat question w hich under- scores, really, what this issue is all about, and it’s air service an d transportation servic e to all o f Alberta, not specif ically northern Alberta, although that’s clearly one of the most important pieces of this.

We had s ome ve ry enc ouraging news on Friday that the airports authority is going to take a step back, and they are going to talk to all stakeholders, not only in northern Alberta and Edmonton and the medical co mmunity but in s outhern Albe rta, specifically Lethbridge and of course Calgary, which have direct flights into the City Centre Airport.

I think that what we really need to talk about is taking a step back and saying that the service we are dealing with is adequate and that the people of this province rely on it, because the city of Edmonton is the capital city, and in order to do business here, it makes it very , very convenient for people in Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, and southern Alberta. So we are going to work with the stakeholders, and certainly the people fro m southern Alberta will be included. I’m hoping, Mr. Speaker, that we can show how vita l that air link is to not onl y northern Alberta but the whole province of Alberta.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. McFarland: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to applaud you for the work that you are doing. My second question to you and the last supplementary: will these people be a ble to exp ect some fairly quick results from this consultation? Mr. Norris: I’d like to again thank the hon . member, and I’ll take your applause anytime you want to offer it, Member for Little Bow, so thank you. Mr. Speake r, I’d like to advise the House t hat as ea rly as this morning we had a conference call wit h all the st akeholders.

The committee agreed that we should move very, very quickly on the first set of talks. That’s going to be going on in the next couple of weeks. We hope to have some k ind of hard c opy by the end of the ye ar, certainly to deal with the closure of the airport, the scheduled flights. Then longer te rm consul tation wit h the Mi nister of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Ministe r of Transportation, myself, and others will be undertaken. We know for a f act that we will have s omething concrete within the next six weeks.

Again, I would like to offer my thanks to the Member for Peace River, who has been very, very forthright in bringing these issues to the table.

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031796 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre, followed by the hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. Corrections Review Committee Report Ms Blakeman: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Solicitor General appointed an MLA review committee on corrections in May 2002, which reported to t he government a year ago. During the spring sitting the Solicitor General responded to my request to table the report in the Assembly by saying that she was still studying it. My questions are all to the Solicitor General.

What is the subject in the report that is requiring such intense st udy fr om the Soli citor General? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Mrs. Forsyth: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I a ppreciate the hon. member’s question. Yes, what she has said is correct. The correc- tions review committee that went out over a year ago has done one very, very good job in looking at our corre ctions and how we’re going to deal with it.

The reason the Solicitor General is taking so long to deal with this report is that there are some difficult decisions that have to be made, and we w ant to make sure the decisions that we’re making are right, not like our federal cousins who just ram legislation in without any consultation. 2:10 The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you. Again to the Solicitor General: when do Alberta taxpayers get to see the report that they paid for? Mrs. Forsyth: Again, Mr. Speaker, I answered that in my previous answer.

I don’t think taxpayers in this province mind waiting for a report that has taken a long time to do. We want to make sure we’ve made the right decisions. The committee that went out there with the members for Red D eer-North and Lac La Biche-St. Paul and Edmonton-Castle Downs did a really, really good job of reviewing our corrections. We have some di fficult decisions that have to b e made. People have to understand so me of the things that we’re facing in this provi nce, wit h the condit ional sentenc ing that the federal government passed in ’96 and all the probation people that we’re dealing with.

So in due time it will be out, and it will be done correctly. The Speaker: The hon. member. Ms Blakeman: Thank you very much. Is the minister considering more legislative change f or the spring 2004 session based on this report, and will Albertans be able to see the report before that legislative change comes? Mrs. Forsyth: No, Mr. Speaker, the minister isn’t considering any legislative changes at this time. If I do consider legislation changes, we will let Albertans know about it, and I’m sure they’ll be support- ive, as they were with the Corrections Amendment Act in regard to dealing with drugs in jails.

The Speaker: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Mature Animal Market Transition Program (continued) Mr. Danyluk: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Last week the federal government announced the national cull cow/bull program, and the Alberta government immediately announced that it was not taking part. Toda y, as p reviously mentione d, our gover nment announced a different, made-in-Alberta program, the mature animal market transition program. My first question is for the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development.

Why h as t he Alberta government decided to forgo the national program? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, it was with a great deal of regret that we had to announce that we would not be participating in a national program. We hav e worked for at least f ive weeks with the othe r provinces in Canada and the federal government to try to devise a program for these commercial market mature animals and, unfortu- nately, were unable to come to an agreement. In Alberta we have some very clear principles that we stand on, and one is that you must have choice in the marketplace.

That is not available when you limit your buyers to one or, in our case, perhaps two. So it was with a great deal of regret that we had to say, with our industry, that we would not par ticipate, that we wou ld indeed proceed with a program that we think does respect those principles that establish a marketplace. It would have been much better had we had a national program. It certainly would have less effect on the marketplace across Canada, but, as I said, it does not meet our criteria, and we did not proceed with it. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Danylu k: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. To the same minis ter.

Could she tell me: how does the Alberta mature ruminant program work compared to the national program? Mrs. McClellan: Mr. Speaker, the main difference is that it offers choice in what a producer does with the animal that is extra to its breeding herd needs. You may keep that animal and apply for a per head payment, which would amount to about a dollar a day for your winter feeding months, or you can offer that anim al for sa le, and that’s the key. You offer the a nimal for sale through a sales methodology.

It can be through an auction market, through an order buyer, through tape sales, TEAM sales, whatever there is available to you, but y ou do offer that a nimal for sale. That allows other buyers into the marketplace. Then you are paid on a differential between the traditional 10-year average of the top price for cattle, a floor price of 20 cents, which we think sets out about the division for the classes of cattle, and you get a differential of about 60 percent of that. Mr.

Speaker, it’s offering choice, allows a marketplace to work, and it also recognizes, if you sell that animal, the difference in value between two animals. It’s har d for m e to concei ve that a 1,600- pound bull that’s 32 months old has exactly the same value as a 12- year-old cow that may have had 10 or 11 calve s, and the federal government does not in any way recognize a difference in value of animals. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Danylu k: Thank y ou very much, M r. Spe aker. My final question is also to the same minister. How much money is available through this program? Mrs. McClellan: Mr.

Speaker, we announced some time ago that we would commit another $100 m illion to deal wi th the issue of the mature market animal and to complete the fed cattle program. We’re

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1797 not announcing the split on those dollars or how they are because we think that that, again, could interfere in the marketplace, and market neutrality is our goal. Anglo-Canadian Clinics Dr. Taft: Mr. Speaker, in September the Alberta Liberal opposition uncovered plans by the Calgary heal th region to pr ovide heal th services in Great Britain with private partners under the name Anglo- Canadian Clinics. This private consortium has bee n a pproved as preferred bidder t o run three c linics in L ondon, England.

T o the Minister of Health and Wellness: what reassurances can the minister give that doctors and nurs es and other health prof essionals badly needed in Calga ry won’t be spending time supporting se rvices in Britain? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speake r, the approa ch being tak en by A nglo- Canadian and the reg ional health authority and the Univ ersity of Calgary in a partne rship is a proactiv e approach to try a nd bring additional dollars fr om ou tside of C anada into Ca nada.

This , of course, relates directly to our ability to continue to finance the health care syste m, whi ch is one of the recom mendations of the Mazankowski report. There are going to be no frontline services that will be aff ected. No frontline physicians are going to the United Kingdom. Only a limited number of physicians who are either on sabbatical or are in teaching positions will take part. There is some effort being put forward by the University of Calgary as a partner to this agreem ent.

The health region is participating in only the planning process a nd in providing their ma nagement expertise, something that t hey already do but have ne ver gotten money for doing. As a result, Mr. Speaker, now if there is money that accrues to the regional health authority as a result of this partnership, 100 percent of that money would be used to improve frontline health services in the Calgary health region. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. S peaker.

Given his reassurances and given that you can’t get something for nothing – they’re selling services abroad – again will the minister commit here and now that Calgarians will not lose any health professionals as a result of the region’s involvement in Great Britain? Mr. Mar: I just did give such an assurance, Mr. Speaker. Dr. Taft: Will the minist er c onfirm that the Prem ier wil l be discussing Anglo-C anadian Cli nics whi le he is in England this week? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, I can’t speak on behalf of the Premier.

I’m certain that somebody will be able to confirm that on behalf of the Premier’s office, but I can neither confirm nor deny that that will be part of the Premier’s discussions. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. Community Health Councils Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Earlier this year, after the RHAs were expanded, there were 11 community health councils within the Aspen health authority. They are now being reorganized into six counci ls. My constituents in Whitec ourt-Ste.

A nne are worried that t hey will no longer be properly represented on these councils and, in turn, not a dequately represented to the RHA. My first ques tion is to t he min ister of heal th. H ow do y ou plan on selecting the members to serve on these community health councils, and what will be their role once they are appointed? Mr. Mar: Mr. Speaker, community health councils represent the people that live in the communities from which they come, and their role is to provide another way for citizens to provide input into local health care planning. Council members are volunteers.

They put their names forward to serv e on such counc ils, and they are ap- pointed not by the government but by the regional health authorities themselves. 2:20 Mr. VanderBurg: Well, to the same minister, Mr. Speaker: given that the Aspe n region has now been expanded, how ca n residents expect to be well served by even fewer health councils? Mr. Mar: Well, Mr.

Speaker, when health regions were expanded earlier this ye ar, they included th e car ryover fr om the e xisting community health councils from the previous regions as well as their own, and there were wide discrepancies in the number of people who served on these health councils. They ranged from nine members in one case to up to 15 in another. By establishing six equal councils, the Aspen health region is ensuring that there is a fair and equitable distribution and representation for all of its residents.

Four of these councils will represe nt people from a geogr aphic area within t he health region, one will represent residents of Indian reserves, and the remaining one will represent residents of Métis settlements. Mr. Speaker, my best advice is that the Aspen health region will soon be advertising for volunteers to serve on these six new health councils, and certainly those residents who have an interest in this, providing input to local health care planning, should put their names forward. The other eight health regions in the province of Alberta are also re-establishing their own local health councils.

The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. VanderBurg: Thank you. Driver Examinations Mr. Bonner: Mr. Speaker, the 2002-2003 Auditor General report recommends that the Ministry of Transportation increase monitoring and auditing proce sses for driver examiners due to increased corruption and inconsist encies in services. This poi nts to the inadequacies of the privatization of driver examinations, which has led to unqualified drivers obtaining their licences, thus risking the safety of th e trave ling public.

To the Minis ter of Transportation: why has t his ministry not adequately monitored and audited processes for driver examiners? Mr. Stelmach: Mr. Speaker, we will take, of course, the recommen- dations of the A uditor General very seriously and will shortly be laying out a plan as to how we will accommodate all those recom - mendations. Mr. Bonner: To the same minister: why is it that since the privatiza- tion of driver examinations the ministry has failed to identify and investigate exam iners w ho are not conduc ting exa minations in accordance with legislation and policy? Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, although I admire the hon. gentleman

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031798 across, what he has said is not absolutely true. We have had investigated a number of operat ions, and a num ber of ind ividuals were suspended during that period of time. Mr. Bonner: To the same minister: why is it that the ministry has moved to privatization of driver examinations when it is clear that this move has risked the quality of this essential public service while endangering the safety of traveling Albertans? Mr. Stelmach: Mr.

Speaker, without a doubt the level of service has improved immensely across this province, and there is something to be said about privatizing some of these services. There’s a feeling, perhaps by some m embers a cross, that t he minute somethi ng is privatized – it’s like something can go wrong in the private sector and somebody c an perhaps do something illegally, but w hen it’s conducted by the public sector, nothing can go wrong and nothing can happen that will perhaps question the service.

So I think, g enerally speaking, that when you loo k at the huge privatization that occurred in this province in the ea rly 1990s, the improvement in level of service, the num ber of issues tha t were handled by this government to ensure that the safety of the traveling public was first and paramount, I believe we’ve done an ex cellent job. We will continue to monitor, and in those cases where someone has done something inappropriate, they will be punished. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona, followed by the hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. Postsecondary Education Funding Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. Alberta students h ave seen postsecondary tuition fe es triple over the l ast deca de, and this government doesn’t seem to have any intention to see that trend stop or any will to reverse it. This government has spent $430 million on corporate giveaways, but it can’t afford a fraction of that amount, all that would be needed, to freeze tuition. It’s not surprising that the TD Bank found that only 43 percent of Alberta high school students continue on to postsecondary lea rning, the lowest in Canada. My questions are to the Minister of Learning.

If the government can afford corporate tax cuts, why can’t it afford a tuition freeze? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First of all, there needs to be a little bit of light put into this argument; that is , Maclean’s, which is probably a very unbiased group when it comes to tuition, shows that the Un iversity of Alberta is number 24, t he University of Calgary is number 25, and the University of Lethbridge is n umber 40 out of roughly 50 to 55 univers ities in the countr y when it comes to tuiti on and fees.

This is right in the ballpark of where we w ant the inst itutions to be. They ’re not the hi ghest; they’re not the lowest. The other issue i s that the t uition fees will be allowed to go up when you hit the 30 perc ent ceiling , will be allowed to go up 5 percent at most, Mr. Speaker, and that is what is going to occur. We absolutely want the tuition fees to be affordable. The other key component which the hon. member brought up was the TD study about the Calgary/Edmonton corridor.

One thing that they refused to do in that study – and the hon. member knows this and really should have said this – is they did not include apprentice- ships as part of the postsecondary system. Here in Alberta we think apprenticeships and trades are extremely important and, indeed, are completed in those numbers, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. leader. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

To the same minister: why is it tha t Quebec, Saskatchewan, Manitoba can freeze tuition fees, Newfoundland can reduce tuition fees by 10 percent, but in Alberta the minister seems determined to make sure that tuition fees keep going up? The Speaker: The hon. minister. Dr. Oberg: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, in Quebec tuition fees for out-of-province Canadians are an average of all the other tuition fees across the country, so that’s what they have chosen to do. They have chos en to keep th eir fees artificially low for t heir own residents, and that’s a policy decision that they have made. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba recently froze their fees, and again that is their issue. In Newf oundland, though, the re’s something else that is very interesting, and that is tha t because of the la ck of s tudents in Newfoundland there are a ctually now, today , more s eats in the postsecondary system than there are students available to actually sit in those seats. So, Mr. Speaker, they have conducted an exten sive recruiting drive across Canada and across the world in order to get students to actually physically come to their universities. So that’s one of the reasons that they have done it. Again, Mr.

Speaker, I will say that our universities – the Univer- sity of Alberta, number 24; the Univ ersity of Calgary, number 25; the University of Lethbridge, number 40 – are right where we want them to be in comparison with the rest of the country. The Speaker: The hon. member. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: given that the TD Bank study concludes that Alberta tuition rates are too high, will the government at least listen to its corporate friends and give young Albertans a better deal on tuition; i.e., freeze tuition fees? Dr. Oberg: Mr.

Spe aker, a gain, the T oronto-Dominion Bank basically stated that the tuition fees were a concern when it came to access. I do not belie ve that they specifically said that the tuit ion fees were too high. What they would have had to have said is that that would have translated across Canada, and they would have seen that they are very competitive across Canada. To put it in perspective, Mr. Spe aker, the tuition plus f ees for University of Albe rta are $ 4,782. You know , it’s only slightly smaller than the pens ion tha t th e hon. me mber g ets from the University of Alberta.

So $4,700: I have four kids that are presently going to university, and I would be more than happy to pay that. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort, followed by the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. 2:30 Skills Development Program Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question today is for the Minister of Human Resources and Employment. Mr. Minister, while Alberta’s economy is going strong and more Albertans are working than ever be fore, many employers in my constituency tell me it’s difficult to find skilled workers and many hardworking employees also tell me they are stuck in low-paying jobs.

So as the Minister of Human Resources and Employment what are you doing to address these important issues?

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1799 Mr. Dunford: Well, the hon. member is onto an issue here, and that, of course, is the fact that we have huge dollars that we’re investing in the skills training of Albertans. At the sam e time, any Albertan driving around and certainly those of us that spent the weekend here in Edmonton in our normal activities see the hiring signs. There’s a disconnect, almost, at times between the skills that are available and actually finding the placement for them. As recently as today, Mr.

Speaker, we were talking about just th at kind of situation, whether we shouldn’t have more direct access for the employer right into our d epartment to see if we can’t somehow get the two folks together more rapidly. In the meantime, we are spending our budget on the development of skilled employees in this province. I think that later this week, you know, w e’ll actually have to come in front of the folks of this Legislature and ask for some additional dollars in order to meet our commitments. We are oversubscribed in this area. But it’s the only thing that works.

You have to provide the kind of transition to get people from assistance and dependence into the workforce, where they can be self-reliant Albertans. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the same minister: I heard you mention a skills investment strategy, so what specific initiative under this program will help employees and employers? Mr. Dunford: Well, this is a bit of reform for us because at one time skills training tended to follow along traditional lines.

We would look at a situation, and if the person had not completed grade 12, for an exam ple, then w e’d autom atically put them i nto academic upgrading through one of our postsecondary institutions. We started to look at that, and we said : “Why would we just look at that on e aspect? Why don’t we look at the m ore com plete pers on and determine, make some kind of assessment as to what it is they would logically be doing within this economy and in a specific period of time?” If that meant academic upgrading, well, of course, let’s go through that.

But if there was a quicker way through training on the job or some other program that we would have that could move them into the workforce and that’s what they want, why would we not be prepared to do this? So that’s part of what we’re doing now. The Speaker: The hon. member. Mr. Cao: I don’t have one. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, followed by the hon. Member for Highwood. Workers’ Compensation Board Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This government always insists it’s at arm’s length from the WCB.

Documents r eceived recently through freed om of informatio n show that successive government ministers are at arm’s length from the WCB board of directors, but it’s at arm’s length across the dining room table at the Mayfair countr y club. To the ministe r of hum an resourc es and enjoyment: why did the WCB fork out over $41,000 in golf course and social fees at the Mayfair Golf and Country Club between 1998 and 2001 for two top executives when injured workers had to camp out on the streets to have their cases heard? Mr.

Dunford: Well, t hat’s an operating situation tha t would of course fall within the responsibility of the board of directors – you know, it’s now broadcast on the Internet live, so the y might be watching today – and that would be something that would be taken up with them. But you should k now that the meal that I woul d’ve had a t the Mayfair course with them was a very nice m eal. There were a number of us from my department that m et with t hem on o ne occasion down there. It was a very, very tough meeting for both the board of directors and for the minister. If we were to recall the exact date, Mr.

Speaker, it was right in the midst of the determination by this minister and this government to reform some of the aspects of the appeal system inside the WCB. That was one occasion when they did offer to provide a site for us to have those discussions, and believe me, sir, we had them. Mr. MacDonald: Mr. Speaker, that meeting occurred on June 19, 2001, and it cost $671. Now, to the same minister: how can injured workers with long- standing contentious cl aims be denied while the WCB spends so lavishly on country club fees? Mr. Dunford: Well, Mr .

Speaker, I think that the hon. member is aware of the activities of Human Resources and Employment. Since that structure was put into place in May of 1999, we have worke d very hard and, I believe, successfully toward making a better WCB system in this provi nce, partic ularly, then, as it would rela te to injured workers. Now, the hon. member was here in the House, and I don’t recall particularly, but I believe that he supported some of the changes th at we m ade to the W CB sys tem throug h legisla tion. We’ve also done this, of course, through regulation.

So I don’t know that as the responsible minister for this govern- ment we need to apologize to anybody for the actions we have taken as a government and for the actions we have tak en as the ministry responsible for the legislation as it leads to workers’ compensation. As a matter of fact, we’ve had pretty good support from some sectors of injured workers in what we’ve tried to do. But, yes, there are a couple of associations that continue to be critic al of not only this government but of this minister in particular. That’s just the way it goes.

I would want to indicate to the hon. member that I believe that I have an understanding of my role as it relates to workers’ comp, and I believe that this government will continue with that particular role and continue to move forward on behalf of all parties involved in the WCB, not just injured workers but the employers who pay the cost of this program as well. Mr. MacDonald: Again, Mr.

Speaker, to the same minister in regard to those em ployers: why does the W CB pay out over $41,00 0 in country club fees for the top two executives when at the same time Alberta busine sses, la rge and s mall, a re fac ed with double -digit premium increases? Mr. Dunford: If there’s a member in this House that is not support- ive of health care reform in this province, then they are not support- ive of the kinds of issues that are being dealt with by the WCB.

The increases in the WCB assessment, hon. mem ber, aren’t due to a $41,000 cost i tem; they are the fac t that heal th care c osts in this province as it relates to WCB claims have more than doubled in the last four or five years. Now, because of the hon. m ember’s question I be lieve that we should look to him for support in the healt h care re forms in this province. If he is going to portray himself as a speaker on behalf of injured workers, on be half of employers, then ge t with it and get onside and get on right now.

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031800 2:40head : Recognit ions The Speaker: Hon. members, in 30 seconds from now I’ll call upon the first of seven to participate in Recog nitions, but pending that, today we’ll recognize that it’s November 24 and is the anniversary of birth for t he hon. me mbers f or Dray ton Valley -Calmar and Calgary-West. The hon. Member for Dunvegan. Mary Gervais Mr. Goudreau: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A Falher poet’s literary creation was pic ked as the Editor’ s Choice aw ard for poe try sponsored by the International Library of Poetry.

Longtime poet Mary Gerv ais wa s notif ied of her s election in September. Her poem entitled River Bank Memories was selected based on its unique perspective, original creativity, and expansive qualities and will be one of 33 poems to be recorded on a special CD poetry collection called The Sound of Poetry . Her p oem is also featured in Eternal Portr aits, a hardbound edition fe aturing the talents of poets from across Canada. Mrs. Gervais has been a poet for many years and has written more than a hundred poems, many of which have received the attention of Canadian and U.S.-based poetry book publishers.

According to Mrs. Gervais her inspiration for putting pen to pape r and writing is life itself. Congratulations to Mrs. Gervais on her recent prestigious award for her poem River Bank Memories. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Red Motel Pictures Mr. Lord: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s always a pleasure for me to help draw attention to the work of incredibly talented Albertans, especially since so many of them live in Calgary-Currie. Red Motel Pictures is the Ca lgary video product ion company with a socia l conscience being bu ilt by Jeth We inrich and his partner, B raun Farnon.

Their story isn ’t just o f i nterest in Ca lgary-Currie or Alberta, for that matter. The facts are that this is a true international success story and proof that Canadians can compete with anybody anywhere. Jeth and Braun started by producing over a hundred commercials for some of the world’s largest companies and institutions, a list that includes the U.S. Na vy, DuPont, First Bank of Am erica, Pf izer, Royal Bank, and dozens of others. Along the way Jeth picked up a Clio, the world’s top advertising excellence award, and made the list of North America’s 10 most up-and-coming new directors.

They do featur e films. Moon of the Despe rados has become a rodeo circuit c ult class ic, work ing with names such as T uff Hedeman, Budweis er, and Wr angler. Heartland is a fi lm abo ut cystic fibrosis with a soundtrac k de veloped by Jann Arde n, Los Lobos, and Ozzy Osbourne. T hree Juno w inners and 60 v ideos: Jann Arden’s Insensitive is the most famous of them. They are r eally put ting Cal gary-Currie on the m ap with redmotel.com, and I’d like to offer my congratulations to Jeth and Braun and all the rest of the talented people there. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Highwood. Pam Irving Mr.

Tannas: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This year on November 14 Her Excelle ncy the Rt. Hon. A drienne Clarkson presented Pam Irving of Millar ville com munity school in Hig hwood wit h the Governor General’s award for excellence in teaching Canadian history to elementary school students. In winning t his national award, Pam gives full credit to her mentor, Barb Marti n, from the Gal ileo Educati onal Netw ork mentorship program .

The G alileo prog ram e mphasizes students researching primary-source information including contact with First Nations people and families of original homesteaders as well as visiting local museums and historic sites and then utilizing student skills in writing, art, drama, and technology to reflect and strengthen their understandings. Congratulations to a great teacher, Pam, and to her mentor, Barb, and to the Foothills school division. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Bernadette Vermaas Mr. MacDonald: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker.

I rise to day to give recognition to Ms Bernadette Vermaas, a recipient of the Carnegie Hero Fund C ommission bronze m edal. The commission honours people from Canada and the United States who risk their lives to an extraordinary degree trying to save others. Ms Vermaas rescued Ljiljana Samuels from an assault by a woman who attacked her with a knife and two syringes on January 23, 2001. She heard the assault from her shop next door and rushed over. The shop owner was shielding her bloody face with her hands, with the armed assailant looming over her.

With a snow shovel in her hand Ms Vermaas cleared the counter and began to approach the assailant, who then fled. Ms Vermaas followed the assailant through back alleys and parking lots until police intervened. Ms Samuels required surgery for a broken nose and recovered fully. For her bravery Ms Vermaas became one of onl y 17 women to receive this award and the first from Edmonton. In all, 686 Canadi- ans, 53 f rom Alberta, have been awa rded Carnegie medals since 1904. I would ask Ms Vermaas again to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly for her bravery. Thank you. Grant Fuhr Mr. Bonner : Mr.

Sp eaker, it is with g reat pride that I ris e to recognize a great Canadian a nd, more t han that, a great Canadian hockey player. I’m speaking of Grant Fuhr, who was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame this year. His jersey was also retired by the Edmonton Oilers in October of this yea r, and of course he partici- pated in the Molson Canadian Heritage Classic, where he once again displayed his lightning-quick reflexes with another memorable glove save. Fuhr played 19 seasons in the NHL and helped the Oilers win five Stanley Cups.

The native of Spruce Grove, who finished his glorious career in the 1999-2000 season, won the NHL’s Vezina trophy for outstand- ing goalkeeper in th e 198 7-88 season. His contributions to NHL hockey shall be remembered for all time and will be expanded as he tries his hand as a hockey comm entator, but he is a lso passing his hockey knowledge to the next generation by helping kids improve their game here in Edmonton. Mr. Speaker, I ask all members to join me in congratulating this great Albertan and recognizing his achievements. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-North Hill.

Edmonton Firefighters Mr. Magnus: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week Ivan Clancey’s car left a s lippery road in Edmont on during a blizza rd and d rove

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1801 through ice into a drainage ditch, landing upside down. Pass ersby tried to help. It was up to two firefighters, Mike Haessel and Mike Tessier, not wearing protective clothing, to wade into four feet of oil, water, and sludge in minus 15 degree temperatures to find the driver. The car was pulled out. The driv er is miraculously alive a fter 30 minutes underwater , and ou r prayers go ou t to him for a fu ll recovery.

In those prayers will be a word of gratitude for the firefighters at station 6: Randy Owen, Bob Taylor, Ray Baron, Brian Paziuk, Doug Ardis, Graham DeLong, Dave D rebert, Rob McNallie, Scot t MacDonald, Wayne Grotski, Daryl Harper, Walter Gahler, Mike Dawood, Bruce Ouellette, Ross Horton, and Greg Holubowich. Firefighters and other emergency w orkers are called on daily to put themselves in danger. They do so without a second thought. It’s their duty, they say. But from time to time these folks demonstrate a kind of bra very that elevates th em from emergency workers to heroes. On behalf of the Legislature, Mr.

Speaker, let’s recognize those heroes. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-West. Dream Keeper Premiere Ms Kryczka: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. On Nov ember 8 m y husband and I atten ded a premiere of Dream Keeper, an amazing aboriginal film that through a grandfather and his grandson explores the tradition of storytelling and native culture. Dream Keeper will be broadcast on ABC television on December 28 and 29, 2003, for all Albertans to see. The hon.

Minis ter of Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Devel opment attended with her sister and her daughter along with the MLA for Olds-Didsbury-Three Hills and his wife. The Premier spoke at a grand reception following. Not only does Dream Keeper depict the rich traditions of aborigi- nal p eople; it a lso is an e xcellent exam ple of the talent in ou r province. Dream Keeper was s hot over 78 day s and in ove r 70 locations throughout A lberta. Over 1,500 abo riginal people were involved as actors, background actors, special skills extras, cultural experts, and crew.

The Blood tribe, T reaty 7 Tri bal Council, Telus, Dreamkeeper Productions, Alberta Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development, Alberta Community Development, and all the cast and crew should be recognized for their contributions. Films such as Dream Keeper are bring ing aboriginal talent into the mainstream and are an excellent way for abo riginal people to share t heir storie s and traditions. Watch on December 28 and 29. Thank you. 2:50head : Present ing Report s by Standing and Special Committe es Mrs. Tarchuk: Mr.

Speaker, as chair of the Select Special Ethics Commissioner and Ombudsman Search Committee I would like to table

part 2 of the committee’s report, containing its recommenda- tion for the appointment of Mr. G.B. (Gord) Button as Ombudsman for the province of Alberta. Thank you. head : Present ing Pet itions The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Norwood. Mr. Masyk: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I r ise t oday to pre sent a petition that was signed by 828 residents of Alberta requesting “the Legislative Assembly to urg e the gov ernment to regul ate e nergy corporations in order to lower the price of natural gas and electric- ity.” head : Intro duc tion o f Bills The Speaker: The hon. Member for Medicine Hat.

Bill 53 Insurance Amendment Act, 2003 (No. 2) Mr. Renner: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m very pleased today to request leave to introduce a bill being the Insurance Amendment Act, 2003 (No. 2). This bi ll wi ll allow the government to introduce an insurance reform package that will al low au tomobile insurance to be made available to all A lbertans in an affordable, accessible manner and will also allow for the provision of a rate freeze in the interim until the new reform package is available to all Albertans. [Motion carried; Bill 53 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Government House Leader. Mr.

Hancock: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. I m ove that B ill 53 be moved onto the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fort. Bill 218 Financial Summit Act Mr. Cao: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce a bill being Bill 218, Financial Summit Act. Given that the demands for public money are increasing, new approaches for allocation of public funding should be consi dered.

This bill is about a public forum that addresse s the dem ands for public money by stakeholder groups in front of one another. [Motion carried; Bill 218 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Bill 224 Long-Term Care Ombudsperson Act Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce a bill being the Long-Term Care Ombudsperson Act. This is a bill that recognizes that persons receiving long-term or residential care deserve to be treated with dignity and maintain the greatest con trol po ssible over how t hey l ive their lives.

Those persons are amongst the most vulnerable members of society wherein their interests and opinions and those of their families are too often disregarded. [Motion carried; Bill 224 read a first time] The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Bill 229 Cost of Living Protection Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031802 Bill 229, the Cost of Living Protection Sta tutes Amendment Act, 2003. The bill addresses three issues. It ensures that seniors living on fixed incomes and low-income Albertans, whether employed, unable to work, or disabled, receive an annual cost-of-living adjustment on a formula similar to that used to annually adjust the remuneration of Members of the Legislative A ssembly.

Second, the bill makes amendments to appropriate legislation to annually adjust the seniors’ benefits, minimum wage, social assistance rates, and monthly AISH benefits to at least keep pace with inflation and the cost of living in Alberta. Finally, in terms of long-term care accommodation charges Bill 229 would require any future adjustments to these rates to be either at or below the inflation rate. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. [Motion carried; Bill 229 read a first time] head : Tabling R eturns and R eports The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw. Mrs. Ady : Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er.

I ris e today to table the appropriate number of copies of 165 signatures that I received from constituents regarding the government’s handling of the long-term care accommodation rate increase. These constituents do not agree with the proposed implementation of a 40 perce nt incr ease in t he accommodation rate. The Speaker: The hon. Member for St. Albert. Mrs. O’Neill: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I rise today to table five copies of a letter sent to me by constituent Sandra Lowe in which she commends several of the recommendations of the Learning Commis- sion but, however, is opposed to some recommendations, including removing principals from the ATA. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Strathcona. Dr. Pannu: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’ve got two tablings today. The first is a letter from the Coalition of Seniors Advocates, COSA, an organiza tion from Calgar y.

The le tter date d July 16, 2003, addressed to the Premier, is expressing concern with the failure of government to address the well-being of seniors, the homeless, and the disabled population of Alberta. The second tabling, Mr. Speaker, is also a letter, with the appro- priate number of cop ies, written by Melanee Tho mas, executive director of CAUS, and Brett Bergie, provincial direct or o f ACTISEC, addressed to the Minister of Learning, dated November 24, 2003.

Both CAUS and ACTISEC do not support the removal of the tuition fee cap or the creation of a framework to increase tuition above 30 percent of an institution’s net operating expense. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Ellerslie. Ms Carlson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings today. The first is on behalf of the Leader of the Official Opposition. H e has received a letter from Doreen Purcell of Thorsby, Alberta.

She’s a senior, and she is dismayed to see that over $1 million was spent in attempting to change the opinion of the public regarding negotia- tions betwee n the regi stered nurs es and the Provincial H ealth Authorities. The second tabling is from a constituent of mine, Sandra Brayer. She is also a registered nurse, with 15 years’ experience, and is also very concerned about the neg otiations that have been conducted between the PHAA and the UNA. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mill Woods. Dr. Massey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

With per mission I table letters f rom Denise J oel, Hele n Johnson, Tra cy Mitc hell, Ge rry Laing, and Linda Brown to the Member for Livingstone-Macleod, upset with the employers’ strategy in the nurses’ negotiations and in particular concerned that the practice that has local nurses practise locally might be changed. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have two tablings this afternoon. The first is a letter that our office rec eived from Mr. Bar ry Wiens on Varsit y Drive N.W. in Calgary. Mr.

Wiens is expre ssing conc ern over the pro posed gove rnment of Alberta natural gas rebate program. He f inds it confusing, an d he feels totally left out. The second tab ling I have, Mr. Speake r, is c opies of le tters expressing concern over patient safety in the negotiations between the nurses and the Provincial Health Authorities association. These letters are from Don Cytko of 78th Street and 102nd Avenue, Karen Wolgemuth from 107th Avenue and 63r d Stre et, and f rom Sheila Coulson in the constituency of Edmonton-Norwood. Thank you. 3:00 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glengarry. Mr.

Bonner: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With your permissi on I’d like to table the appropriate number of copies of two letters, one from Diana Chom a and the othe r from Anita A shmore. Both are nurses and are very concerned over what is being asked of them in the current contract negotiations and the tactics that are being used by the employer in those negotiations. Thank you. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview. Dr. Taft: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have four tablings today. The first is a let ter wri tten to me , tabled w ith permi ssion.

It’s from Gerald Zagrosh, the founder of the P ain Elimination and Tiss ue Regeneration Clinic. It’s a letter offering a 100 percent guarantee of his clinic’s services to the government of Alberta to eliminate pain from h ip, kn ee, ul cerative co litis, and irrit able b owel syn drome without using surgery. The second letter tabled with p ermission is from Karen Ferrari expressing conc ern about the le vel of f unding for e ducation in Alberta, supporting some aspects of the L earning Commission but particularly concerned about class sizes.

The third tabling is from Adrienne Wiebe, who says, “I feel very strongly that the Alberta government has lacked a long range vision in its policies and programs” concerning education, health care, and social services. The final ta bling is a letter f rom Susa n Hannon, tabl ed wit h permission, expressing concern about the level of funding to primary and secondary schools. Thank you.

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1803 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very m uch, Mr. Speaker. I’m tab ling a letter from Kevin Sommer addressed to the Minister of Energy, dated November 22, 2003. He asks the minister to admit that his deregula- tion scheme was a mistake and to stop wasting public funds and to go back to regulating utilities. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North. Mrs. Jablonski: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Today I’m tabling five copies each of 146 letters from Albertans that support the repair and restoration of a bea utiful old landmark, the historic old Michener administration building, that ’s considered to be an unpa ralleled heritage resource and among the last of the g rand old public buildings in our community and province. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Mr. Cenaiko: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I’d like to table the appropriate number of copies of 60 letters from Edmontonians and 86 letters from Calgarians supporting Bill 206, the Traffic Safety (Seizure of Vehicles in Prostitution Related Offences) Amendment Act, 2003. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Hon. members, might we revert briefly to Introduction of Guests? [Unanimous consent granted] head : Introduction of G uests (reversion) The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Mr. Cenai ko: Thank y ou very much, M r. Sp eaker.

I’d like to introduce to you and t hrough you t o Member s of the Legislati ve Assembly a number of individuals that are attending this afternoon’s session who provided me with assistance over the last two years as an MLA and in bringing forward Bill 206, which will be presented shortly for third reading this afternoon. I’d like to introduce to you and acknowledge those members from the Community Action P roject, north-central Edmonton citizens’ power organiza tion. In particula r, Michael Walters is here with Rena Debit, Elaine Mantreau, and Father Frank Steple.

Also, from the Pro stitution Awareness and Action Foundation of Edm onton Kate Quinn, Ed Campbell, Tracey Patience, and Chris Basualdo are here. As well, I’d like to acknowledge four police officers that also assisted me: Detective Randy Wikens and Detective Jim Morrissey from the Edmonton Pol ice Service as well as Detective Len Dafoe and Staff Sergeant Joe Houben from the Calgary Police Service. I’d like them all to rise and recei ve the war m welcome of this Assembly.

Privilege Contempt of the Assembly The Speaker: Hon. members, the chair is now prepared to rule on a purported question of privilege raised by the hon. Mem ber for Edmonton-Riverview a few days ago. On November 14, 2003, the chair receiv ed writ ten n otice from t he Me mber f or Edmonton- Riverview of his inte ntion to r aise the purported que stion of privilege. On November 17, 2003, at 11:15 a.m. the chair received a signed letter from the member indicating his intention to raise this matter.

The let ter indicated that it w as copied t o the Ministe r of Infrastructure in conform ity w ith Standing O rder 15 (2), which provides that a member wishing to raise a question of privilege shall give written notice containing a brief statement of the question to the Speaker and, if practicable, to any person whose conduct may be called into question, at least two hours before the opening of the sitting.

Under Standing Order 15(5) a question of privilege may be raised as soon as “the words are uttered or the events occur.” The cha ir assumes that the member chose to review the minister’s answers and tablings and presumably did not have that opportunity to raise the matter before the end of the sitting on May 15, 2003, which ended at 4:37 p.m. that day.

Neither the me mber bringing forward the application nor the minister addressed whether this matter was raised at the earli est possible opportunity, which is one of the grounds under Standing Order 15(6) for the chair to consider in ruling on a purported question of privileg e. Given that there seems to be no dispute on the point, the chair finds that it was brought forward at the earliest opportunity and that the requirements of Standing Order 15(5) were met. Before review ing the par ticulars of this application, the chair wants to comment on the procedure for raising questions of privi- lege.

As privilege is the most serious issue that can be raised in this Assembly, the chair was v ery len ient with the time taken by both these mem bers. How ever, the chair w ould like to quot e from Marleau and Montpetit’s book, House of Commons Procedure and Practice, at page 125. A Member recognized on a question of privilege is expected to be brief and concise in explaining the event which has given rise to the question of privilege and the reasons why consideration of the event complained of s hould be given pre cedence ov er other H ouse business.

Generally, the Member tries to pr ovide the Chair with relevant references to the Standing Orders, precedents and citations from procedural authorities. The Speaker’s role is to determine whether there is a prima facie question of privi lege. It is up to the Assembly to decide whether there is an actual question of privilege. If the chair finds that there is a prima facie question of privilege, then the usual practice is for someone to move that the ma tter be re ferred to the Standing Committee on Pri vileges and E lections, Stand ing O rders and Printing, that would hear evi dence on the matter.

When the members of that committee conclude their work, their report would be submitted to the Assembly and would contain recommendations on what ac tion should be ta ken. In shor t, hon. mem bers, all the evidence does not have to be presented when the question is first raised in the Assembly. In this case there w ere ver y fe w ref erences to precede nts or authorities cited by the two main participants. The chair has ruled three times in approximately the last year and a half on the issue of deliberately misleading the Assembly.

The chair refers to rulings on March 12 and March 20, 2002, found at pages 267, 465, and 466 of Alberta Hansard for those days, and February 19, 2003, at pages 18 and 19 of Alberta Hansard. None of these rulings were referred to by either the member raising the allegation or by the minister in his response. The basis of the member’s purported question of privilege is that the Minister of Infrastructure deliberately misled the Assembly on May 15, 20 03, and possibl y befo re, concer ning questions about testing for mold at what was formerly the Holy Cross hospital in the city of Calgary.

In the m ember’s November 17 letter he indicates that in response to his questions surrounding the test results for toxic mold at the Holy Cross hospital, and I quote: the minister indicated

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031804 that he did not have the tests; the documents he tabled proved he did. End of quote. The exchange is recorded at pa ge 1674 o f Alberta Hansard for May 15, which the chair closely reviewed. On that day the member asked in his main question what the minister had “learned about his department’s testing for toxic mold at the Holy Cross hospital.” In his response t he minis ter ma de certa in alle gations a gainst the member, which were the subject of a point of order that day and for which the minister apologized.

In his first supplementary question the member asked the minister if the department had “in its possession any lab results that speak of toxic mold at the former Holy Cross hospital.” In his response the minister quoted from a co py of a n e-mail exchange betwe en an official in his department and Mr. Tang Lee on May 14, 2003. At the request of the chair the minister tabled this e-mail in the House, which became sessional paper 597/2003. The minister quoted from part of the e-mail where Mr.

Lee said that he “did not complete [the] report for the Holy Cross Hospital as the decision was made for the Court of Appeal not to move into [that] building.” In the firs t pa rt o f the e-mai l ta bled by the minister, Mr. Lee indicates that he is enclosing “the report from the Microbiological laboratory that was completed on October 24, 2001.” The icons at the top of the e-mail indicate two attachments to the e-mail.

These attached documents were not tabled on May 15 or in the minister’s tablings on November 19, 2003. 3:10 In his final supplementar y the member asked: “Is the minister saying that his department has never had possession of positive tests for toxic mold at the Holy Cross hospital? Yes or no.” The minis- ter’s response was: Mr. Speaker, once again I will put on the record what has happened. The fact is that wh en we were looking at locations to house the Court of Appeal, the Court of Appeal asked Mr. Tang Lee to do an air quality test, and c learly, as this shows, the tests were never completed.

As the chair has indicated in previous rulings, accusing someone of deliberately misleading the Assembly is a very serious allegation that is hardly ever made out. The tests are presented well by David McGee in his book Parliamentary Practice in New Zealand, second edition, which was relied upon by the House of Commons committee that investigated the Eggleton affair and recommended that there was no breach of privilege.

McGee says at page 491: There are two ingredients to be established when it is alleged that a member is in contempt on this ground: the statement must, in fact, have been misleading; and it must be establishe d that the member making the statement knew at the time the statement was made that it was incorrect and tha t, in makin g i t, the membe r inten ded to mislead the House.

He goes on to state: “In order to show that a misleading of the House was deliberate, there must be something in the nature of the incorrect statement that indicates an intention to mislead.” In this case, we heard at som e length about different interpret a- tions of test results. The minister believed that he never had final test results, while the member insists that the minister should have been advised that he had some test results, although on May 15 the member asked in his final supplementary if the minister had “posi- tive” test results.

The minister had some documents, as demonstrated by the e-mail exchange between an official in his department and Mr. Lee, as the e-mail shows two attachments, which are referred to as “the report from the Microbiological laboratory.” The chair notes that it was the minister himself who tabled this document that seems to be the basis of the allegations by the Member for Edmonton-Riverview. From the minister’s statement on November 19 he did not find the results conclusive.

As it appears that the chair is being asked to rule on the basis of what is a test, what is a final test, what is a positive test, or what is a final report, the chair would like to quote from the March 20, 2002, ruling on a similar allegation involving the Solicitor General found on page 465 of Alberta Hansard for that date. It would be difficult for the chair to conclude that a contempt of the House arises every time a minister misspeaks or misstates depart- ment policy. Ex actness in all answ ers to questio ns in question period would also require exactness in all questi ons.

This would seem to amount to an impossible standard of perfection that would certainly go beyond the standard expected in a Westminster-style parliament. After listening to the hon. member and the minister, it was clear to the chair that the minister offered responses that the hon. member thought did not answer his questions, but it seems that there was considerable room f or subjectiv e interpre tation and ambi guity. Furthermore, as the Member for Edmonton-Rutherford alluded to, these matters are usu ally a dis pute over facts.

As Marleau and Montpetit state at page 433, in most instances, when a point of order or a question of privilege has been raised in . . . response to an oral question, the Speaker has ruled that the matter is a disa greement among Members over the facts surro unding the issue. As su ch, th ese matters are more a question of debate and do not constitute a breach of the rules or of privilege. Accordingly, the chair cannot find that the minister was trying to deliberately mislead the Assembly. As such, the chair finds there is no prima facie case of privilege.

Before moving to Orders of the Day, the chair wants to encourage any members who bring forward questions of privilege to be succinct in their p resentations and to be able to advise the House of the authorities that they are relying upon. head : Orders of t he Day head : Written Ques tions The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

Proper notic e having been given on Thursday, November 20, I will now move that written questions appearing on today’s Order Paper do stand and retain their places with the exception of Written Question 15. [Motion carried] Pheasant Lease Agreement Q15. Dr. Taft moved on behalf of Dr. N icol that the following question be accepted.

Why has the num ber of pheasa nts released under a lease agreement between the Brooks Pheasant Hatchery and the Pheasants Unlimite d, adminis tered by the Depar tment of Infrastructure, not met the 15,000 pheasant release require- ment, what are the t erms of the lease ag reement, and what happens when the lease expires? Mr. Zwozdesky: Well, Mr. Speaker, we were prepared to respond, and I would like to indicate that we are prepared to accept Written Question 15. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Riverview to close the debate. Dr. Taft: If the minister cares to provide his response, I’m sure the

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1805 Member for Lethbridge-East would be happy to receive it. Thank you. [Written Question 15 carried] head : Motions for Retur ns The Speaker: The hon. Deputy Government House Leader. Mr. Zwozdesky: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

Proper notic e having been given on Thursday , No vember 20, I will now move that motions for returns a ppearing on t oday’s Order Paper stand and retain their places. [Motion carried] head : Publi c Bil ls and Orders Other than Government Bills and Orders head: Third Reading Bill 206 Traffic Safety (Seizure of Vehicles in Prostitution Related Offences) Amendment Act, 2003 The Speaker: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Mr. Cenaiko: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I’m pleased to begin debate on third reading of Bill 206, the Traffic Safety (Seizure of Vehicles in Prostitution Related Offences) Amendment Act, 2003. Over the past tw o year s I’ve m et with h undreds of i nner-city residents in Calgary and Edmonton who have all said the same thing: if people understood the problems related to prostitution, they would want to do anything possible to help get these women off the streets. Based on the support from inner-city residents, police agencies, city councils, and members of this House, I think the support for this bill is strong and growing.

I would lik e to rem ind this House that johns cont inue to drive around looking to satisfy their cravings. Even though the number of prostitutes has been reduced, the customers have not stopped shopping. A lot of work ha s been done t o reduce the number of prostitutes walking the streets. This bill combined with other programs will make further progress to re move sex offenders and allow comm unities to re build into saf e places for childr en and families.

Throughout debate on Bill 206 this Assembly has heard about the problems associated with street prostitution in Alberta’s inner cities, but we’ve also heard about what some neighbourhoods and commu- nity groups are doing to battle prostitution.

Whereas some commu- nity groups m eet regularly to di scuss th e con struction of a p lay- ground, a growing number of groups meet to decide how to clean up dirty condoms and used needles left on the sidewalk. I don’t think people should be subjected to this sort of pressure, and any effort to reduce street prostitution would be a step in the right direction. Mr. Speaker, at eve ry stage of the legislative process I trie d to make it clear that Bill 206 will help reduce street prostitution.

I can’t stress enough the fact that this bill is only an option for police services, not a ma gic bullet that wil l eliminate prostit ution com - pletely. If the r esources are av ailable, t hen vice units will hav e vehicle seizure as an option. I strongly believe that this bil l, if passed, will complement the efforts and programs already under way to further reduce street prostitution. Mr. Speaker, I’m proud of this bill because it comes in part from communities affected by street prostitution. I have enjoyed meeting with residents and community groups who share my concern for the safety of inno cent people.

I found that ta lking and w orking with police services and community groups across Alberta has created legislation that effectively achieves its purpose. 3:20 There are many people w ho have helped me enco urage this Assembly to help Alberta’s communities. The number of letters and the diversit y of t he a ddresses made a very important statem ent. Now, I have tabled letters in this Assembly fr om residents of Edmonton and Calgary as well as outlying areas of the major centres including Sherwood Park , Strathm ore, Viking, Hig h Riv er, and Canmore.

This campaign was more proof that while street prostitu- tion may occur primarily in the inner city, its effects have an impact throughout the surrounding area. Mr.

Speaker, individuals, as I mentioned earlier in Recognitions, such as Kate Quinn and Ed Campbell from the Prostitution Aware- ness and Action Foundation of Edmonton as well as Michael Walters from the Community Action Project he re in Edm onton as we ll as individuals like Carol Potter from the Communities for Awareness and Action on Prostitution Issues in Calgary have all done great work with their respective cities r elated to stree t prostitution including urging their aldermen to support the seizure of vehicles in this proposed bill.

Officers from the Calga ry and Edm onton police services also helped educate c itizens w ho had no understa nding of the issues surrounding street prostitution. These men shared their experiences with several members in this House about the horrible costs of street prostitution. Initially the support f rom the police community was lukewarm because they saw problems using the exact legislation for Manitoba and Alberta, but they never rejected the idea and offered thoughtful advice that made this bill more effective by ensuring that the sex tra de offender is held accountable without punis hing hi s family.

These people have s hared thei r real -life e xperiences with my colleagues and myself. Their contribution cannot be overstated, and I’d once again like to thank them for all of their help. T hey took time out of their busy schedules to offe r their support and insight into the street prostitution issue and how to deal with it. As I’ve said before, Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal of hard work being done that has reduced stree t prost itution in Al berta, but I believe that more work needs to be done. Johns need to understand the consequences of their actions. Women need help to get off the streets.

Inner-city neighbourhoods need more assistance to prevent dirty needles and condoms from proliferating in their playgrounds, sidewalks, and backyards. Police services need the tools to effec- tively deter johns from destroying inner-city communities. Bill 206 is an attempt to achieve these goals. Mr. Speaker, one final thought. In Vancouver there are over 60 missing street pr ostitutes. Some of y ou may know tha t Richard Pickton is accused of killing more than a dozen women, all of them street prostitutes in Vancouver’s Hastings area. In Washington state the Green River killer, Gary Ridgeway, killed 48 women.

All of his victims were prostitutes. In his own words, Ridgeway chose prostitutes because he thought he could kill as many as he wanted to without being caught. He also knew that they would not be reported missing right away and might never be reported missing at all. I read an interesting

article in the Ottawa Citizen last week, Mr. Speaker, that talked about Pickton and Ridgeway and the problem society has in recognizing victims of violence. All of Ridgeway’s victims were women and all were prostitutes, and in Vancouver 60 female street prostitutes ar e missi ng and Pickton faces 50 murder charges. Some may say that this could never happen in Alberta, but the numbers tell a dif ferent story. Pres ently there are 83 m issing

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031806 street prostitutes in Alberta. In the past 15 years nine prostitutes have been murdered in the Edmonton area. Five of these murders have occurred in the past year. Finally, Mr. Speaker, excluding the recent murders in Edmonton and excluding the 60 missing women in Vancouver and 73 prosti- tutes that have been killed in Canada over the past 10 years, there’s one

section of this

article that made an important point. The author explained tha t it doesn’t ta ke a sta tistician to spot the com mon denominator in these numbers. Yes, serial killers are often involved but not always, and if we were to add the horrific number of assaults, robberies, rapes suffered b y women on the stre et, then the blan k- eyed monsters are reduced to bit players. The real story here is not about serial killers; it’s one of street prostitutes being attacked by men ranging from psychopaths to mechanics to accountants to any walk of life. Mr.

Speaker, I’m not saying that the vehicle seizure alone would save the lives of these women or stop these killers, but I am con- vinced that Bill 206 will move many johns out of the inner-city areas where they shop for sex. By doing this, more time and resources can be concentra ted on th e serio us offenders. I be lieve that the end result will save lives, and if this bill saves one life, it’s worth it. I’ve talked with the Minister of Transportation about this bill, and he supports it fully and knows that something has to be done.

I look forward to wor king with him to ensure that this bill is proclaimed into law as soon as possible. I believe that the legislation proposed in Bill 206 will help inner- city residents live in safer neighbourhoods by deterring sex offenders from cruising their neighbourhood streets, and I urge all members to vote in favour of Bill 206. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar. Mr. MacDonald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I rise t his afternoon to participate in debate on Bill 206. The hon.

Member for Calgary-Buffalo is to be recognized for the work that the mem ber has done along with others in getting this bill before this Assembly. Now, Mr. Speaker, the hon. member spoke earlier about many of the prostitutes in Vancouver who unfortunately have disappeared and, it’s been recognized, have lost their lives. Unfortunately, an eerily simila r crim e spree ha s aff ected this city a nd this region. Certainly, whenever one talks to or knows a parent of one of those prostitutes who has disappeared and disa ppeared for some time, is later found in a farmer’s field or on an acreage, it is sad indeed.

If anything can be done to pre vent similar circum stances from occurring, then I woul d urge all mem bers of t his Ass embly to support this legislation. It’s certainly not perfect. When we consider that Bill 206 perhaps will undermine one of the main principles of the Canadian justic e system – th at is that you’re innocent until you are proven guilty.

This is a strong measure that undermines that principle, but when we look at one of those mothers who has lost a c hild – and in some cases these prostitutes are not 18 – if this measure would go in any way to reduce prostitution, then I, again, urge everyone to support this. Certainly, the communities that were consulted are solidly behind this legislation, and we have to respect the wishes of those individu- als in the community that the hon. member has consulted with, and we have to hop e t hat the w ishes of the com munity and the civ il rights of the public are going to be in balanc e here.

T hose are difficult issues to balance sometimes in a democracy, but hopefully we will be able to do that with this bill. Bill 206 is also going to give quite a bit of discretionary power to police officers. If you are caught soliciting for prostitution, a vehicle can be seized. Now, there is a list of conditions that hopefully we will get a chance to discuss in this Assembly, but certainly I would encourage all members of this Assembly to have a look at the issue of prostitution and the solicitation of prostitutes and consider this.

This is a deterrent, but there is also another deterrent out there, and that is the publishing of the names of the indiv iduals who are cruising on an y night of the we ek an d soliciting prostitutes . If they’re caught a nd if they ’re found guilty, let’s have those na mes publicly displayed somewhere. It m ay be that whenever the j ohn comes home to Jill, shall I say, Mr. Speaker , then a little bi t of humiliation can go a long, long way to stopping this practice. [Mr. Shariff in the chair] Now, that worked in the past as I unders tand it, as people in the community have told me.

Perhaps we should look at going back to that way, and that is simply: the names of those that are found guilty are displayed in a public place for all to see. With those remarks, I will cede the floor to another hon. member that wants to

part icipate in the debat e, but I wou ld certainly urge members to please consider supporting this legislation initiative from the Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Thank you. 3:30 The Acting Speaker: The hon. Member for Red Deer-North. Mrs. Jablon ski: Thank y ou, Mr. Speak er. It’s wi th a stron g, positive feeling that I stand today to encourage my colleagues to vote in favour of Bill 206 in third reading.

I’ve watched this bill proceed through the various stages of debate, and in listening to the pros and cons be tween mem bers, I’ve concluded that the bill will be an effective tool for f ighting prostitution and cl eaning up neighbour- hoods. As such, it will receive my support because it fights for the ability of families in areas overrun by prostitution to take control of those areas and clean them up for the better. A common misconception about Bill 206 is that those fighting for the bill are doing so out of emotion

whereas those fighting against the bill are doing so out of logic and reason. It’s true that there are many valid emotional arguments that can be used in support of Bill 206, but there are also a lot of good, logical arguments that support the bill as well. The two types of arguments work together to ensure that the bill we pass is satisfactory both on an emotional level as well as on a logical level. Today I want to talk about these two types of arguments and how they’re working together in support of Bill 206. When we talk about any sort of le gislation, we always start by asking two que stions.

First, is this law something that Albertans want or desire? Second, will this law be good for Alberta in the long run? These t wo questions form part of a n age-old de bate about le gislation. As a government is it our job to decide what is good for Albertans, or is it our job to giv e Albertans what they want? That’s an interesting debate, but in reality those of us in the Assembly know that in most cases the answer lies somewhere in the gray area in between. Bill 206 is a piec e of legislation that lies in that gra y area.

The Member for Calg ary-Buffalo along wi th the Com munity Action Project went into communities riddled with prostitution and asked: what do you want done about this? The response far and away was: get pimps, johns, and prostitutes along with their used condoms and dirty syringes out of our neighbourhood; give us and policemen the power to make our neighbourhoods safe again. They gave a lot of good reasons f or this res ponse too. T hese va ry from a personal concern for the well-being of street prostitutes, often children, to a concern for the safety of their own families, to a desire for a clean

November 24, 2003 Alberta Hansard 1807 neighbourhood, to a desire for property values to increase. On the emotional si de of the coin some women have e xpressed unease and h umiliation over bein g hol lered at and mi staken f or prostitutes by pass ing john s. Others are sim ply disgusted by the sight and knowledge of prostitution-related activities taking place in their back alleys or around the corner in the parks and playgrounds where kids are supposed to b e riding the teeter-totter or playing soccer, not watching out for dirty needles.

Yes, these are emotional arguments, but I see no reason why they shoul d not be considered valid arguments for measures which would curtail street prostitution. On a very real level these are concerns that people living in these neighbourhoods have to face. They are conce rns about ac tions which are in and of the mselves demeaning and can lead to other actions which may cross the line from demeaning and humiliating behaviour right into v iolent or illegal acts.

This i s where concer n over humiliation takes on an even greater significance and where we come to see that while some arguments may be deemed emotional, they are in fact logical and reasonable in their own right. For example, any c oncerned parent must wonder just what neighbourhood their kids will be growing up in if behaviour such as this is not tackled as strongly as possible by our legislation.

When we take away a ve hicle from somebody, we ensure that the driver will not find their way back i nto the se neighbourhoods to pick up street prostitutes, get their fix, or holler catcalls at mothers or their young daughters. In short, this bill banks upon a common economic logic: if there are no customers, there will be no incentive to try to sell a product. This bill takes away the customer, so it should be met with a corresponding drop in street prostitutes attempting to sell their bodies in those neighbourhoods.

Families and community organizations will have at least a fighting chance to clean up neighbourhoods and make them the places they can be, places t hey are proud to rais e their children in. W hen the neighbourhoods are clean, when they are normal by any reasonable person’s standards, then the fruits of Bill 206 will be seen. Kids will be able to play in the front yard or in the park across the street without parents’ f ears about their safet y being comprom ised by criminal or perverted elements.

When these neighbourhoods are clean, homeowners and landown- ers can feel good about taking care of their yards without having a dirty condom or ne edle from a passing tr uck throw n onto their property. They won’t have to worry about drunken j ohns driving dangerously through their neighbourhoods looking for a prostitute. On another, very real level homeowners would finally be confident that the value of their property would increase for a change. They would be confident that they may get their investment back on their property.

I’m not suggesting that Bill 206 would cure all of these problems and do all of these wonderful things. Obviously, it won’t, but it’s a step. It needs t o be supported by the political will of all levels of government, a committed police force, and, finally , committed community action groups and ind ividuals. Well, we do ha ve committed police of ficers, and the people on th e ground in these communities have said th at they want thi s to happ en. They have been working on their ow n to rid their s treets of prostitution for some time now. All tha t’s missing is the political will.

With th e passage of Bill 206 we will show that the political will is not missing at all. We’ll show these communities that this Legislature is behind them full force in getting rid of prostitution. Mr. Speaker, it’s time to take effective action concerning prostitution. York University sociologist John O’Neill has suggested decrimi- nalization of prostitution and collecting the tax. Bill 206 is a good first step. I applaud my colleague from Calgary-Bu ffalo fo r hav ing the courage and the faith to bring this bill forward. I supp ort it, and I urge all my colleagues to support it as well. Thank you.

The Acting Speaker: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Highlands. Mr. Mason: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I have a bit of a cough, so I will try and get through this speech without fry ing the microphone. I welcome the op portunity to briefly speak during third reading debate on Bill 2 06, the Traffic Safe ty (Seizu re of Vehic les in Prostitution Related Offences) Amendment Act, 2003. I spoke on it as well, Mr. Speaker, at second reading. I want to begin by acknowl- edging those in attendance in the gallery today.

Some of those who have joined us today live and/or work in inner-city neighbourhoods that have bee n hard hit by the nega tive cons equences of street prostitution-related activities. These negative consequences i nclude noise a nd congesti on on residential streets and avenues, particu larly late at night, when people are trying to sleep and hope to enjoy some peace and quiet. It also involves the harassment of people, and it involves the health risks of needles a nd condoms t hat are le ft in bac k alley s, pl ay- grounds, and schoolyards.

Women, for example, cannot do simple things like walking to the corner store or to the neighbour’s without being stopped and harassed. Excessive traffic on residential streets and avenues increases the chances of accidents both to residents and to property. Needles and other litter left behind also create dangers and other health hazards. Unfortunately, a growi ng nu mber of neighbour hoods in both Edmonton and Calgary as well as some smaller cities are experienc- ing the negative impacts of stree t pro stitution and r elated drug activity.

Until 15 years ago street prostitution was largely confined to the downtown core. In the late ’80s and early ’90s business and police action shif ted the ac tivity from the dow ntown c ore to the residential neighbourhoods adjacent to downtown. In the late ’90s growth in the drug trade, cuts to welfare and other social supports, and a severe s hortage of affor dable housing contributed to more vulnerable women on the streets and an increase in the numbe r of neig hbourhoods impac ted.

Today more tha n a dozen nei ghbourhoods fr om Wes tmount t o Be verly a re be ing negatively impacted by this dangerous and undesirable activity in Edmonton. 3:40 We have vulnerable youth and adults being recruited and getting hooked on crystal meth and coca ine and then being f orced to prostitute themselves to g et the money to pay the dealers.

From 1992 to 2002 eff ective police, new agency resources such as Safe House, Crossroads, Street Outreach, the protection of children involved in prostitution initiative, and community action reduced the numbers from 975 to 250, but in 2003 we have seen a spike to around 350 individuals on the street. Mr. Speaker, I believe that this is directly attributable to the drug trade. The greatest danger of prostitution-related activity is to the women themselves. In the last year alone five women have disappeared off city streets only to be found dead sometime later, usually in a remote location outside the city.

In the past 20 years the number of women that have disa ppeared of f city streets has riva led the nu mber of women that have di sappeared in Vancouver’s downtown east side albeit the Vancouver disappearances took place over a shorter period of time. Clearly, a range of me asures ne eds to be ta ken to addre ss the danger and nuisance that results from johns cruising res idential streets to pick up women who are prostituting. Most importantly we

Alberta Hansard November 24, 20031808 need to reduce the number of young women and some men who are living lives of such despe ration th at t hey feel that t hey hav e no alternative but to sell their bodies on the street. We need to address issues of poverty by making sure that people have safe, affordable housing. We nee d to mak e sure the se wom en have a dequate incomes so that they can feed themselves and their children and are able to put a roof over their heads so that they don’t need to expose themselves to the dange r of the s treets.

We need to address the underlying problem of drug addiction an d ensu re that appr opriate supports are in place so that vulnerable women don’t have to turn to street prostitution. Mr. Speaker , we al so need to address t he demand side of t he equation.

We hav e to ack nowledge that the re sidents in t hese neighbourhoods have every right to be angry about their neighbour- hood being shown such a lack of resp ect and that the y and the ir children are exposed not only to unnecessary noise and pollution and the dangers imposed by distracted drivers of these vehicles but also to dangers such as needles and other litter. Some po sitive steps hav e alrea dy been t aken to a ddress this unacceptable nuisance . One is the s etting up of john sch ool fo r those charged with solicitation offences.

There has been a prostitu- tion offender program running in Edmonton for the past seven years. This is an alternative measures program which men who have been charged for the first time can attend to learn about the brutal realities of the street s ex trade . Its succ ess is de monstrated by the lo w number of repeat offenders. I note that Bill 206 contains a provision for first-time offenders: if they choose an alternative measures program like the prostitution offender program, they will have their vehicles returned.

A survey done of me n attending t he program indicated t hat 78 per cent believed that they would be deterred if there was a risk that their vehicles would be s eized. I am aware of some concerns that have been expressed about whether seizing the vehicles of those charged with solicitation violates the presumption of innocence. I have to admit, Mr. Speaker, that this argument is a concern of mine as well because it’s an important legal principle, but at the same time it’s important to note that i n other off ences tha t involve

summary convictions legal c onsequences result prior to having someone having their day in court to fight the charges. In this respect , the righ ts of the accused need to be balanced against the rights of neighbourhood residen ts. I believe that safeguarding the rights of residents in neighbourhoods afflicted by street prostitution activity has to take precedence. We need to send a clear message to johns that engag ing in th is kind of dangerous behaviour is not acceptable and will result in severe consequences.

We need to dete r this ty pe of unac ceptable be haviour, and the provisions of Bill 206 provide the police with another tool for doing this. On that basis, I will on behalf of the New Democrat opposition be supporting Bill 20 6 at th ird and fina l reading. Thank y ou, Mr. Speaker. The Acting Speaker: The hon. Member for Lacombe-Stettler. Mrs. Gordon: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure for me to rise and join the debat e on Bill 206, the T raffic Safety (Seizure of Vehicles in Prostitution Related Offences) Amendment Act, 2003, sponsored by my colleague the hon. Member for Calgary- Buffalo.

Before I begin, hav ing work ed with the hon. mem ber on the Alberta police review, I’ve long respected his work and his commit- ment to policing. I’m very pleased that he has brought forward this bill, which represents a great deal of work and takes into account his past many long years as a well-respected police officer. So he is not only looking at it from a policing standpoint but a lso taking into consideration the community as a whole.

Throughout debate several hon. members have expressed concerns with Bill 206, and I feel that these concerns need to be addressed as we continue on the process o f, hopef ully, passing this legislation. Mr. Speaker, the first and most prominent concern is the assumption that under Bill 206 t he suspects would be sentenced before their right to a trial. The second concern with Bill 206 is the progression of street-level prostitution to more of an underground, less visible environment.

Although this concern is not directly related to Bill 206, it is a conse quence of legislation whose purpose is to rid t he streets of prostitutes, pimps, and johns. I find these two concerns to be the major arguments against this legislation. Thus, they need to be addressed so that there is no disputing that Bill 206 is a necessary part of Alberta’s Traffic Safety Act. Before I submit my a rguments concerning these two iss ues, I would like to remind the Assembly that Bill 206 is designed to clean up urban neighbourhoods torn apart by crime and debris related to street prostitution. It ’s just that simple.

We are very, very lu cky actually, Mr. Speaker, as I represent a rural area. There’s not a great deal of prostit ution in sma ller communities. How ever, I’m sure many MLAs in this Assembly that do represent towns and villages can tell of stories where young girls have been lured away from the smaller community, quit school, and gone off to Calgary to seek fame an d fort une and often – often – end up on the streets as prostitutes. So we, t oo, from rural Albe rta have t o take this very seriously. Mr.

Speaker, I believ e that Bill 206 is close ly connected with another piece of important legislation that passed during the spring session this year. Part of Bill 1, Alberta’s promise act, is a pledge to all Albertans that we will work together to provide safe and healthy communities for our children’s growth, education, and development. I firmly believe that Bill 206 is a major step i n fulfilling Alberta’s promise to make our communities and streets a safe environment for our children to live, learn, and play.

I trust that every member in the Assembly strongly supports getting those involved in prostitution- related offences off our streets and out of our communities. As part of my argument against those who feel that it is important that people c