Manitoba Hansard — 16 November 1990 (Sitting 26B, 35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-26b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba QEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denls c. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXIX No. 268 • 1 :00 p.m., FRIDA V, NOVEMBER 16,1990 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MAN ITOBA LEGIS LATIVE ASSE MB LY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constitu encies and Political Affiliation NAM E ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRE TT, Becky CAR R, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERIL LI, Marianne CH EEMA, Gulzar CHOM IAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DER KACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, Jam es, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCH ARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon . EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDL AY, Glen, Hon. FRIE SEN, Je an GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAM MER, Harold, Hon.

HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HICKES, George LAMOUR EUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDE AU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS , Clayton, Hon. MARTIND ALE, Doug McA LPINE, Gerry McC RAE, James, Hon. Mc lNTOSH, Linda MITCH ELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHM AN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon.

ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON , Eric STORIE, Jerr y SVEIN SON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA- LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Cresce ntwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste. Rose Seine River Roblin- Russe ll Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood lnterlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupe rtsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkster The Pas St.

Norbe rt Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY. Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA Friday, November 16, 1990 The House met at 1 p.m. CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SU PP LY SU PPLY-FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Deputy Chairman {Marcel Laurende au) : Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. Today, as indicated in the House , by leave , the Estimates sequence has been altered to begin considering the Estimates of the Department of Family Services. I would also like to mention that by leave of the House the Committee of Supply will be sitting from 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. today.

Since the Department of Family Services has already begun its considerations in the Chamber and I believe have heard the opening statements from the Minister and the two critics, we shall then begin with the next item. The next item to be considered is 1. (

b) Executive Sup port:

(1) Salaries, $383 ,800. Oh, ju st one moment, please. The Honou rable Min ister, maybe you could introduce the staff that is here today. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services) : Yes, for the critics and others, my staff: Roxy Freedman is Dep uty Min ister; Winston Ho dgins, Associ ate Depu ty Minis ter, Inc ome Secu rity and Manage men t Ser vices; Mar tin Billinkoff, Executive Director, Research Planning and Interg ove rnmental Rela tions; and Wes Hen der son, Executiv e Dir ector, Ma nagemen t Services. An Honourable Member: Ju st to clarify that, sorry, Mr.

Billinkoff's responsibilities are what? Mr. Gllleshammer: Executive Director, Research Planning and Intergovernmental Relations. An Honourable Member: Then Mr. Henderson, right? * (1 305) Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Wes Henderson, Execu tive Director, Management Services. Mr. Reg AI cock (Os borne) : I thank the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for giving me an opportunity to get started on this. I would lik e to-g iv en that we are in Administration and Finance and in that

section of the department that is responsible for the structure of the department-ask a couple of questions on the Supplem entary Estimates information that was tabled for us. Ju st to get a sense of some of the organizational issues that arose, I see that there is an organization chart here on page 10 that is dated October 19 90, and I would like to know when this organization or reorganization was completed. I would like to have some understanding of some of the relationships within the department's organization.

The Minister may choose to give a couple of introductory remarks, or I can just go right into questions. Mr. Gllleshammer: Go ahead and proceed. * (1 31 0) Mr. Alcock: I am going to want to talk in some detail about the Agency Relations unit that I see has been set up now and, if I understand this chart correctly, reports to Mr. Hodgins. I am a little confused by why Day Care has been associated now with Youth and Regional Services and Special Programs and Immigrant Services.

I was wondering what the rationale was behind that, removing Day Care from Family Services and moving it over to something that does not seem as directly related to Family Services. Mr. Gllleshammer: Really two reasons there, the Child Day Care was put under this

section as it combines employment, and secondly, for practical reasons in terms of balanced workl oad, it was included here. Mr. Alcock: I will just separate those two comments there. I realize it is with employment, but I mean, is the only rationale for putting it there to balance the workl oad ? Ther e does not seem to be any philosophical or programmatic reason. Mr. Gl lleshammer: The link age there is with employment programming, and Child Day Care was

1346 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16, 1990 see n to fit there as part of the suppor t under employment. Mr. Alcock: I am sorry.; so you are suggesting now that the Day Care is an employment program. Mr. Gllleshammer : No, people who are employed will be the ones who are accessing day care ; that was one of the reasons. The other is the workload issue that I explained. Mr. Alcock: I recognize that there is a great deal of work that goes on in merging two large departments. I presume this decision came about at the time that the two departments were merged into one. Was there any study done?

I mean, is there a document in existence that recommends this organizational structure? Is there so me kind of review that was done or is this--1 mean it seems, frankly, passing strange to me that we would take a family support program and for reasons of ad minis trativ e efficiency, hive it off to some other administrative stream irrespec tive of the service that is being delivered. Mr. Gllleshamm er: There is not a written review, but you are correct in saying that this was the amalgama tion of two very large depar tments. Certainly, day care is a family support, but it is also seen as an employment supp ort.

Mr. Alcock: I also notice that Youth and Regional Services are in that stream now. Were the regional services related to employment, or are these the regional services that deliver family support and Child and Family Services in regions where there are not private agencies to do so? Mr. Gllleshammer: These are regional services for employment and employment counselling. Mr. Alcock: Then the regional operations line under Mr. Cels would be the one that delivers Child and Family Services, family support, et cetera. Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr.

Alcock: Are the Youth and Regional Services integrated with the current regional structure within the department, or do they have a separate stream? Mr. Gllleshammer : They are a separate stream at this time, but because of the fact tha t the amalgama tion is relatively rece nt, this will be reviewed as time passes. Mr. Alcock: In Income Maintenance Programs, are they part now of the regional delivery structure? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt is a separate structure. Mr.

Alcock: So we are still faced with a system where a given community can be receiving Family Services from three different operational entities at the same time even though all those entities report back ul timately to the same Minister. Mr. Gllleshamm er: That is correct at this time. * (1 31 5) Mr. Alcock: When the Minister says, at this time, are there any plans to change that? Mr. Gllleshammer : There are plans to review it, and again I would point out that this is a fairly recent change. lt will be under review. Mr. Alcock: Yet I am given to understand that certain organizational changes have taken place.

For example, a Winnipeg region which is--1 am never quite sure where it was, at one time it was a region and then it was three, I believe, and now I understand it is going back to one. Is that the case? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, is it going back to a single region to deliver Family Services, or is it a single region to deliver the three services? Mr. Gllleshammer : Yes, it is a single region to deliver Family Services and health services. Mr. Alcock : But not Income Ma intenance or Employment Services. Mr. Gllleshamm er: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: Okay, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I think I will let the Mem ber for Wellington ask a couple of questions on this. Ms. Becky Bar rett(W elllngton) : Mr. Deputy Chair, I would like to move in the organizational chart to the left a bit and ask if the Minister can explain what the Agency Relations committee or department or what the role of the Agency Relations

section is there. Mr .GIIIes hammer : lt is on page 34 of the Estimates Supplement: "Dev elopmen t of sta ndar dized contrac ts , principles and procedures for purchase of service contracts. "Evaluation of operating divisions' monitoring and control syste ms and recom men dati ons for modifications where appropriate. "Dev elopmen t and implementation of central monitoring and control systems related to the funding of external agencies. "Development of a management practices model

November 16 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 47 and training package for use by Bureau and operating division staff in providing assistance to agency boards and management. "Development and communication of conflict of int erest guidelin es for boar d mem bers and employees of external agencies funded by the Department. "Co mp letion of sp ecial au dits/re views as required." Ms. Ba rrett : Yes, I am wondering if it would be appropriate at this point to go into more detail on this or should we wait on this until we get further down. Mr.

Gllleshammer: There is probably a more appropriate line to do that. Ms. Barrett : No, I will wait for that till we get to that. Mr.

Alcock: I think we will leave the organizational structure, although, I will want to come back to that question as we go further through the Estimates process. lt strikes me that one of the issues I attempted to speak to yes te rday was -i t is one thing to administer a service ; it is another thing to have some sort of philosophy and a sense of understanding of what the service is so that you are administering it toward some end rather than simply effi cient bookk eeping. lt strikes me, if you are looking for efficiencies, that having three operational systems serving the same popula tion may be a more appropriate pl ace to look than depriving children and families of needed support.

Let us just step through this one a little bit, because there are some interesting questions that come out of the presentation of data on this. I would like to draw your attention to Chart 2 on page 14 . Now that the Minister has had an opportun ity to see the chart, I would just like to ask some questions for clarification here. I note that grants-o h, I am sorry. Before I actually ask this question, let me just remind the Minister of my request from yesterday and ask him whether he has the grants list available for the two critics. * (1 320) Mr.

Gllleshammer : Yes, we noted your request yesterday, and we.are working on that. We should have that for you at the beginning of the week. Mr. Alcock: I understand that it is not available today. lt will be available by the start of Estimates on Monday. Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct . Mr. Alcock : I must confess I am a little surprised. I mean, presumably you know what your grants are at this point in time. I mean, it should not be that difficult to put a list out. Mr.

Glllesham mer: Well, you have to also realize that there are grants and also per diems, and we are working on providing you with some accurate data. We will bring that in on Monday for you. Mr. Alcock: I would have thought that two-thi rds of the way through the year you would have all that information already collected, but that is a gratuitous comment that I will simply leave at that. You have 15 .9 percent of your total distribution of expenditures in this department listed as grants. Now do those incorporate or do those include all of the grants to all of the non-Gov ernment agencies that deliver services?

Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Alcock : So the 70.1 percent program portion of this particular display would be comprised of the Income Secu rity Program s, the Man ito ba Dev elo pmental Centre and other Gover nment operated-the Seven Oaks Centre for Youth and those sorts of things as opposed to agencies that operate outside the Government. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, the 70.1 percent includes our own program, but it also includes the per diems that are paid to external agencies. Mr.

Alcock: Then the 15 .9 percent grant would be comprised-for example, the grant portion of funds going to a shelter or to the grant portion going to a day care centre, or to the service administration grant going to a Child and Family Service agency. Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alco ck: The chil d ma intenanc e- the maintenance payments paid on a daily basis would be coming out of this 70.1 per cent. Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock : Then when the Minister reflects or it is reflected in documen ts that ther e is a chil d maintenance grant paid to people, this is really not a grant.

This is a compilation of all the fees paid. Mr. Gllleshammer: Some of the per diems are covered under grants, per diems for maintenance. Other per diems come out of the program portion. * (1 325) Mr. Alcock: What I would be interested in seeing is a similar chart that showed the distribution of funds

1348 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16, 1990 between private sector, non-G overnment agencies, private not-for-profit agencies, that deliver services and those prog rams del ivered directly by the Government. I understood this to be that, but I am understanding now that is not what this is, that in fact, a portion of that 70.1 percent is under the con trol and direc tion of pri vate not-for-profit agencies, day care centres, shelters and the like. I imagine St. Amant would be in there also. Mr.

Gllleshammer: This budget document follows instructions we get from the Department of Finance to formulate the docum ent and the charts. We can take your request for additional information and give it to you in a different form. Mr. Alcock: As long as it would contain that information, I would be interested in receiving that. Can I move on to

schedule 6? This is on page 19 of the same docu ment. You list a category here. You have Manager ial, Pr ofes sion al, Administrative Sup port and Uncategorized, a total of, against Day Care, Youth and Employment Supp ort, a totalof 13 1 positions at a cost of some $594,000.00. lt seems relatively reasonable. What is that? Mr. Gllleshammer: Those are the STEP positions from the departments. Mr. Alcock : So all of those 13 1 positions are the part- time summer temporary employment program and are distributed among departments.

So this, in a sense, overstates the number of SYs in the department by that figure in terms of full-ti me, ongoing- Mr . Gl lleshammer: Basical ly, the summer employment. Mr. AI cock: When you look at the distribution of staff years among the various operating divisions, does the department have any sense of the number of staff full-time positions that are supported by the various grants that the Government gives among the various agencies, any compilation of that? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, we have that information in different forms, but if you are referring to the Child and Family Service agencies' staffing, we have those numbers, or the Day Care, we have those numbers. Mr. Alcock : I would certainly be, and I suspec t the Mem ber for We llington (Ms. Barrett) wou ld be interested in receiving an indication of that, how many there are in the various departments, laid out much like you have here. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we can provide that for you. lt may take a little longer than just getting the grants listing that you requested last day. Mr.

Alcock: Okay, now just to refresh my memory, Mr. Depu ty Chairperson, have we dealt with the Minister's Salary? Have we indicated we are going to-why do we not do it? Mr. Deputy Chairman : You spun that out in the Chamber already. We are dealing with item 1. Mr. Alcock: We did? Okay. Well, then we are on to Executiv e Su pp ort . I will let the Memb er for Wellington ask questions that she may have, and then I have some more. Ms. Ba rrett : Mr.

Dep uty Chair, under Executive Suppo rt, Salaries, can the Minister tell us how many of these 1 0 positions are filled through Civil Service channels, how many are Order- in-Council positions and which positions, the titles of those positions? Mr . Gl lle shammer: The re are th ree Orde r-i n-Council positions the re-a special assistant, an execu tive assistant and the Deputy Minister. If you want names, I can provide you with names. Ms. Bar rett : Yes, please, I would appreciate those names. Mr. Gllleshammer: The special assistant is Joanne Thibault.

The executive assistant is Wilf Taylor, and you have met the Depu ty Minister, Roxy Freedman. " (1 330) Ms. Bar rett : So the rest of the Executive Support staff come through the Civil Service process then. Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Ms. Barrett : Can you tell me how long each of those Order -in-Council people have been in their positions? Mr. Gllleshammer : The Deputy Minister has been in an Order-in-Council position since 19 86.

With the amalgamation of the departments it was, I believe, a new Order-in -Cou ncil in April of 19 89; the special assistant and exec utive assistant, just a matter of a few weeks. Ms. Bar rett : Will the Minister table or give to the critics the contr acts that go along wit h the Order-i n-Council appointments, particularly for the special assistant and executive assistant? Mr. Gllleshamm er: I believe the Orders-i n-Council for the special assistant and executive assistant

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 13 49 wer e covered in the Premi er 's (Mr. Filmon) Estimates and are under his lines in the budget. Ms. Barrett : I would like to spend a little bit of time on the Activity Identification under the Exec utive Support, page 26 of the Supplemen tary Estimates. To begin with, under Activity Identification, the third sentence: Safeguards the public interest through enforcement of legislation and regulations.

Could the Minister expand on that a little bit and explain which members of the Executive Supp ort staff are responsible for doing that, what that activity actually entails? Mr. Gllleshammer: That activity falls under the Depu ty Minis te r's responsi bi lities. We ar e responsible for a number of pieces of legislation, a number of Acts where there is enforcement, The Social Al lowances Act, The Socia l Services Administration Act, The Child and Family Services Act, to name a few. Ms. Bar rett : Can the Minister briefly outline the duties of the special assistant and the executive assistant? Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, the executiv e assistant is hired to do mostly constituenc y work that the Minister does not have the time to perform and to interact with groups in my constituency, to handle inquiries from the consti tuency. They do that constituency work. The special assistant works in my office on items that come through to me by phone or mail that have to do with the department and assists me to handle those. Ms.

Barrett : Under the executive assistant, can you tell me which of these-o ne, two, three, fou r, five-Activity Identifications those activities would relate to, the exec utive activities that you have outlined? Mr. Gllleshammer: So you are ta lking about the Activity Identification on page 26? Ms. Barrett : Yes. Mr. Gllleshammer: The Activity Identification under Executive Supp ort on this page 26 refers mainly to the Deputy Minister's responsibilities. The executive assistant, as I have indicated, is assisting me with the constituency issues and problems. Ms.

Barrett : So I am correct in stating that the activities that you just stated are basically the responsi bility of the Dep uty Minis ter and the activities and responsi bilities of the exe cutiv e ass istant and special assistant are more in response to your own duties as Minister and that those would come under a discussion of your activities. Mr. Glllesha mmer: That is correct. The E.A. basically does constituency work and the S.A. does a lot of the work, attends meetings and meets people on my behalf. Ms.

Bar rett : Yes, I just have one further question that is a general question on all the categories that I have noticed as going through the Estimates. The other expenditures, not only in this department but in many of the other departments, appear to be-the Estimates and the actual and the Estimates for the next year-very much the same. There is virtually no difference in those categories. I am wondering if the Minister can explain that, I would suggest, anomaly, or there must be a reason why these figures continue throug hout the lines and the departments to be virtually identical year over year. Mr.

Gllleshammer: The expenditures that you refer to are opera ting expe nditur es wit hin that department. We have tried to maintain that at the same level year over year. Ms. Ba rrett : One final other comment on the other expenditures, I understand it is a very small amount of money, but could you explain-this is different than the other ones-that the projected for last year and the adjusted vote for this year and the Estimates vote amount for Other, un der Other Expenditures, there is a change, a decrease. Can you briefly explain that decrease? lt was $23,400 and it is now estimated to be $1 8,400.00. Mr.

Deputy Chairman : Which page are you looking at? * (1 340) Ms. Ba rrett : I am on page 27. lt is the bottom of the Other Expe nditures. Mr. Deputy Chairman : The $1 8,400.00? Ms. Ba rrett : Yes. Mr. Gllleshammer : You will notice that the total for Other Expenditures is the sa me, and what is referred to as the Other is down. lt means that one of the other allocations is up and has simply been reallocated. Ms. Bar rett : Thank you. That is all the questions in this area for now. Mr. Alcock : Let us just follow up a little bit on some of the questions the Member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) was asking about the E.A.s and S.A.s.

13 50 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 16 , 1990 I understand that the role of the E.A. is to simply support the Minister and the constituency and do all of those things that a Member would do if they were not burdened with ministerial responsibilities. The other, though, the S.A. , as I understand it, is respo nsible for assis ting the Minis ter in the provisions of ministerial duties and fielding calls and all of those kinds of things. I wonder if the Minister could com men t on the qualifi cations of this particular S.A. to represent the Minister in this fashion. Mr.

Gllleshammer : Yes, the hiring of the S.A. is done by 0/C, and in this case it is an individual whom I have known for some time who has been involved in business, worki ng with people , and comes with very high qu al ifications and recommendations. Mr. Alcock: Is this the same person who was the chairperson of the Rent Review Panel? Mr. Gllleshammer: I believe that is correct. Mr. Alcock: Is this also the same person who sat on the MPIC Board? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: Is this S.A. still on the Rent Review Panel? Mr. Gllleshammer : No. Mr.

Alcock: What qualifications did this individual have relative to social servi ces? What work experience does she have? Mr. Gllleshammer: As I have indicated, this person has a strong commitment to social programs, comes very highly recommended and has a background of being able to work with people. Mr. Alcock: We all have that same commitment. I am not certain that qualifies us to work with very difficult and very sensitive cases. Has this person ever worked in any field related to social services? Mr. Gl lles hammer : We hav e a departme nt -(i nterjection)- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Mr.

Gllleshammer : We have a depa rtment of almost 2,000 people to work with members in soci ety that interact with my department. This person is on staff to work with me. Mr. Alcock: I can understand that would take very special skills. There is a third person that I see with the Minister on a regular basis. I believe her name is Leah Goodwin. Can the Minister tell me what relationship she has to the department and the Minister? Mr. Gllleshammer: Ms.

Goodwin works for the department and is responsible for monitoring and tracking issues and assisting the Deputy Minister and myself with the co-ord ination of issues and issues management. Mr. Alcock: Issues management, now would this be what we might or euphem istically call a "spin doctor"? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am not sure what the Member is referring to. This person works for the department and is assisting the Dep uty Minister and myself on issues. I would point out that there is a department person who work s with media relations, Janic e Little, and Ms. Goodwin is working on departmental issues. Mr.

Alcock: Is her salary contained within this Executiv e Supp ort appropr iation? Mr. Gllleshammer : No. Mr. Alcock: Despite the fact that she works directly for the Minister and the Dep uty Minister in this department, her expenses are not carried by the department? Mr. Gllleshammer: She works for the department. Mr. Alcoc k: Are her exp enses carried by the department? Mr. Glllesha mmer: Yes, she is in the department. Mr. Alcock: Perhaps the Minister could indicate, what appropriation it would be more appropriate to question him on about this particular position. Mr.

Gllleshammer: Yes, she is working on a term position, and it would come under the Planning and Research. Mr. Alcock: Has this pe rson wor ked for the department very long, or is this a re latively new position? Mr. Gl lleshammer: She has bee n wi th the department a short period of time. Mr. Alcock: How long? Mr. Gllleshammer: A matter of approximately a month. Mr. Alcock: Now, I have seen the individual in question before. She is quite well qualified in her role as a press officer. What was her position with this Government before?

November 16 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 51 Mr. Glllesham mer: She worked with our press liaison people before. She no longer is employed there. Mr. Alcock: This person is a press officer for the Minister and the Dep uty Minister. Mr. Gllleshammer: No, she is not. Mr. Alcock: So she has no media management functions? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. She does not have a media management function. Mr. Alcock: I think I will just move on with that, and we will come back to that in Research and Planning for a moment. Mr. Deputy Chairman : Shall the item pass? Mr.

Alcock: No, the item shall not pass. I have another question or two here. Jus t coming down to the Salaries line, I see Indirect Salary Costs here as $70,000 the previous year, $1 2, 000 this year. I see this lin e repea ted throughout various appropriations. I wonder if the Minister could explain what is meant by Indirect Salary Costs. Mr. Gllleshammer: The figure you are referring to as Indirect Salary Costs is basically severance costs. Mr.

Alcock: In this particular appropriation the $78,900 were severance costs, presumably for people leaving becaus e of the amalgamation or the change in Ministers, or whatever, and the $1 2,000 is the same. Is it all severance costs? Mr. Gllleshammer : The figure under Indirect Salary Costs is the previous Dep uty Minister when the departments were amalgamated. The line also inclu des related costs and special allowances including items such as overtime, remoteness allowance , stand- by pay, staff turnover provision, and shift premiums. Mr. Alcock: Would that be consistent throughou t the Suppl ementary Estimates?

Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock : Come back for a moment to this position that I understand now is a Planning and Resear ch posit ion, this Leah Go odwin. What background does she have in social policy planning? Mr. Glllesham mer: The time is actually term time, and it is being placed under Planning and Research which relates to issues that come before this department. Mr. Alcock: I am still trying to pin down what her responsibilities are. Is she part of the Planning and Research unit?

Does she work for them on special projects, or does she work for the Minister and Deputy Minister as was first indicated on tracking something? Mr. Gllleshammer: I would repeat that this is term time, but she has been seconded to our offices during the Session to deal with the co-or dination of issues with the Deputy Minister and myself. Mr. Alcock : Seconded from where? Mr. Gllleshammer: The time has been seconded. lt is term time, and it comes under Planning and Research. She has been hired into this position on a term basis. Mr.

Alcock : I see, so although the appropriation of her position is with Planning and Research, she has been seconded from her appointment in Planning and Research to work in execu tive sup port. The executiv e support function here that shows ten SY s is really not quite accurate . lt should be 11 SYs or at least ten plus some proportion of time that reflects the time that this person is working to supp ort the Minister and the Deputy Minister. * (1 350) Mr. Gll leshammer : This was put toget her previousl y, and the term time is listed under Planning and Research. Mr.

Alcock: I note that there is indicated here Indirect Salary Costs of $78,900 in the previous year, which I am told was as a result of the amalgamation of the two departments and the moving from two to one Deputies, for example. Yet I do not see a change in the SY allocation. Mr. Gllleshammer: The staff year was taken out last year, but the severance pay appears this year after the amalgamation of the two departments. Mr.

Alcock: The $12, 000 in Indirect then is severance of, for the second time, presu mably people who were on the executive support staff of the previous Minister, and they have left and somebody else has changed them over. Is tha t correct? Mr. Gllleshammer: That line covers other issues such as overtime, remoteness allowance, standby pay and others that I had indicated earlier.

13 52 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16 , 199C Mr. AI cock : Yes, and turnover I believe too was also mentioned. Now , specifically referencing this line in Exec utive Supp ort which shows $1 2,000 in this year-and this is a $1 2,000 additional cost, not a $1 2,000 saving which would be the case if it were turnover, one would presume- is this related to overtime in the Minister's office ? Is the Minister putting in too many hours? Mr. Gllleshammer : lt is primarily clerical staff putting in overtime in the offices. Mr. Alcock: Would there be any severance in that $1 2,000.00? Mr.

Gllleshammer: No, there is not. Mr. Alc ock: When we come down to Communication I see in Other Expenditures, am I to understand this Communication is telephone and related communication equipment, or is this the pr oduction of ma terials to co mm unica te departmental policy to the public at large? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, that reflects telephone costs , postage costs and courier costs. Mr. Alcock: Well, then can the Minister explain how he effected the reduction? Mr. Gllleshammer : I am told that telephone costs have been reduced. Mr.

Alcock: This part of it moved from two offices or two Ministers to one, or is this a change in a system, did you move, did you use it less or string new tin cans? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt is probably a combination of things including the amalgamation of the two offices, but the telephone costs have gone down some $3,000.00. Mr. Alcock: Could the Minister just tell us briefly what the other line is, the $23 ,400, and the reason for the decrease to $1 8,400.00? Mr. Deputy Chairman : That is the same question that was asked by the Honourable Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett). Mr.

Gllleshammer: The total expenditures, as was recognized before, is the same, and under the Other it has been a reallocation into the other area as listed above . Mr. Alcock: Reallocation of existing costs or-was there just a line reallocation, or was it an under expenditure and one that has been reapplied to other areas to meet increased costs? Mr. Gl lleshammer: Th is is a re sult of the amalgamation as well, and in the first year they were listed one particular way. This was an attempt to reallocate it into what the department felt was a more appropriate line. Mr.

Alcock: So they are increases in transportation and supplies and servi ces. Presumably the Supplies and Se rvices increase is a volume and cost increase . What is the transportation increase related to? Mr. Gl lleshammer: lt could be rel ated to out-of-province travel or increased mileage costs. Mr. Alcock: Am I correct that the Supplies and Services increase is papers and pencils and the like, and ju st an annual cost of living kind of- Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: Thank you very much, Mr. Dep uty Chairperson. I believe the Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) has another question on this area.

Ms. Barre tt: In th e, par ti cularly the Other Expenditures, do these figures-and I guess the same question could be asked on all of the other sub-cat egories- take into account the anticipated extra costs due to the implementation of the goods and services tax? * (1 400) Mr. Gl lleshamm er: We have no t had the experience in that area yet, and we have not made any provision for it. Ms.

Barrett : So that should the goods and services tax be implemented in January, there will be three months of this budget period where whatever-and I am not suggesting that anybody here knows the exact impact that that goods and services tax would have on expe nditures, but that, to this date, has not been taken into account, so there could be some additional expenditures other than those estimated? Mr. Gllleshammer : Yes, it would be speculation.

There could be additional costs that we are going to have to accommodate at that time until we get some experie nce with the GST. lt was diffi cult to accommodate that in this budget. Ms. Bar rett : I understand the difficulty we are all facing in trying to figure out what the impact of this is going to be on all of our lives and certainly all of our budgets. We certainly, on this side of the House , have had several imprecations, if you will, from the Premier (Mr. Filmon) on the need for families, organizations, and agencies to live within their

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 13 53 budget. I think it is incumbent upon us, as best we can, to take into account the probability that this goods and services tax will be implemented in January. I am sure that external agencies have certainly been grappling with this problem and are doing the best that they can to add to their anticipated exp ens es. I would ask the Minis ter why his department, when you add all these other expenses together, comes up with a fairly substantial amount of money, has not made at least some provision.

I believe the federal Finance Minister talks in terms of 1. 5 percent to 2 percent inflation potentially in the first year. Why has that not been taken into acco unt in increases in these other items? Mr. Gllleshammer: We have tried to live within our operating budget for the last couple of years and plan to do so, and we will certainly have to take that into consideration when the GST comes into effect. We are asking agencies to live within a balanced budget, and we will try and live within our own operating budget. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Deputy Chair, as I mentioned ear lier when I fi rst brough t up these ot her expenditures, it seems not to change year over year or change very, very small amounts of dollars. Is the Minister stating that this budget- what the Minister appears to be stating is that in these particular expenditure items, the philosophy of determining the money that will be spent in this area is that we will not increase it. We will not increase these expenditures to reflect even what we know will be increased costs due to the normal cost of living, the fact we know that postage stamps are going to go up in price.

We know that telephone bills are going to go up in price , so tha t the philosophy is we are not going to increase the expe nditures, therefore, we will be decreasing the amount of activity that will be allowed to take place under these budget items. Mr. Gl llesham mer: We , in our offices, ar e attempting to live within that expenditure line and there has not been a change. ln some cases, it might mean finding a better way to do it. Ms. Barrett : Mr. Deputy Chair, I would go then back to the Communications line.

As was mentioned earlier, the Minister explained that this included te leph one , postage and couri er, and he is anticipating a $3,000 decrease last year to this year. There will be increases in postage and telephone costs. There will be undoubtedly, if not already going through, increases in costs for courier s due, if nothing else, to the increased cost of fuel oil.

Can the Minister, when he is saying these things will have to be done better, can he explain to this committee what other forms of communication, or how he is going to operate this Communications line, when he is not only decreasing the dollar amount but he is not taking into account the fact that there will be additional costs? Mr. Gllleshammer: As I indicated earlier, this was the first year of this department. We feel that in the second year we can reallocate some of those funds and the total remains the same. We are going to make every effort to operate as efficiently as possible within that budget. Ms.

Barrett : Yes, I just would like to state I know that it is a small dollar amount that we are talking about here, but I do believe the principle is one of a fair bit of importance. (Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) So that in the com munications line- this is com munications within the department. This is communications with external agencies. This is the hub of the department. This is managing the activities of the department under the objectives. Communications is a major way that, I mean, it is the way you do this.

The Supplies and Services, which is, I assume paper and that kind of thing, does show an increase, but the electronic and telephone and courier elements which are the more speedy forms of communication are showing a decrease. I am wondering how the department assumes that it can communicate the things that it needs to communicate out of this central function with what could be in effect a 1 0 percent or 12 percent decrease in actual funds available to do this job. Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would point out that this is the communications aspect that refers to the Dep uty Minis ter's offi ce , at my offi ce , and not the department. We have been able to-and again I would emphasize that that was the first year of operating with the amalgamation of the two departments and with some changes. Mayb e an example would be using tax machines more than couriers to effect some savings, but again the ongoi ng depar tm en t exp enses for

13 54 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA Novernber16 , 1990 communication will show up somewhere else. This refers strictly to my office and the Deputy Minister's office . Just maybe one point further. In an area like Social Al lowances where perhaps there is an increase in the uptake there, there would be some reflection of increased costs, but here we have been able to reallocate that money but the total Other Expenditures is still the same. • (1 41 0) Ms. Bar rett : Thank you , I have no further questions in this. The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Vodrey) : Item 1 .(c)(1 ) Salaries, $945 ,700.00. Shall the item pass?

Mr. Alcock : I am sorry, I think we must be talking about the wrong thing. We are talking here about Executive Supp ort. The Salaries fi gur e is -(i nterjection)- I know, but the Salaries figure is not $900,000, it is 383. -(i nterjection)- Oh, I see, okay . -(i nterjection)- No, I am sorry, go ahead. Ms. Bar rett : Madam Acting Chair, on the Salaries for Planning and Resear ch, there ar e 15 professional-t echnical SYs for this last year and an anticipated increase of one. Can you explain what that additional staff person will be doing, or in what category that addition is taking place? Mr.

Gllleshammer : The increased complement of one staff year was to provide an analyst in support of the Decade of the Disabled . Ms. Bar rett : Madam Acting Chair, can you describe No. 1, why that was reallocated and No. 2, what those duties will be? Mr. Gllleshammer: This staff year then works with the Decade of the Disabled on such things as facility access and funding support for National Access Awareness Week, some of the concluding Decade events or the future after the Decade of the Disabled comes to an end. Ms.

Ba rrett : Madam Acting Chair, maybe this is asking next year's budget item, but is it anticipated that this staff year will be maintained here or will it return or what will happen to it? Mr. Gllleshammer: The discussion probably is premature on that particular staff year, but it is something that we are goi ng to have to look at to see how ongoing service is going to be provided. Ms. Barrett : Again under Other Expenditures, Communication. There is a fairly substantial dollar and, certainly, substantial percentage increase in the Communication from adjusted vote '89-90 to this year's Estimates.

Can that differential be explained, please? Mr. Gllleshamm er: The cost increase that you see there reflects increased costs and activity under Communication in terms of telephone, advertising, use of messenger services and so forth • Ms. Barre tt : Madam Acti ng Chair, so in the Planning and Research Department then, it is not anticipated that the staff in that department will be able to effect the same kinds of cost savings that the staff unde r the Executive Su pp ort is, in this category? I am confused .

When we were talking earlier, it was stated that economies would be undertaken so that there would be a reduction in that item. Under this item there is what I think is probably a more realistic allocation to reflect expanded costs. Can the Minister explain that, please? Mr. Gllleshammer : Again, as I repeated earlier, this is a reflection that the '89-90 vote was a result of a first year of experience of amalgamating the two departments.

I think if you will look at the total other expend itures there, we have effected certain eff iciencies so that the 19 90-91 budget more accurate ly reflects what we feel the expenditures will be. Ms. Barrett : Well, I am still confus ed, because one would hope that the figure for the other, the Executive , reflects what the actual expenditures will be, and this reflects what the actual expenditures will be.

I am sti ll confused as to why Communications expenditures in the Executiv e Sup port can decr ease while Com munications expenditures in the Planning and Research are going to be increasing by close to, if not over 50 percent. The realities of these two and the dollar figures are not that much different, but I do not understand why one is decreasing and the other is substantially increas ing. Is one being more efficient?

Is the Planning and Research Depar tment being less efficient in their use of this line item or, as I suggest, is this a more realistic recognition of the costs that are actually going to be involved? Mr. Glllesha mmer: Yes, I would caution the Member from reading too much into it. Again, I would emphasize that last year was the first year of experience with the amalgamated departments and

November 16 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 55 there was some flexibility within the numbers, and we feel the numbers this year more accu rately describes the reality. These are called budget Estimates and last year with the first year of experience it was estimated that is what the cost would be. The budget lines this year mor e accurately reflect the reality. Again, I would indicate there that the Total Other Expenditures actually show a decrease , and that reflects the efficiencies of the combination of the formerly two departments. Ms.

Barrett : Yes, I am very understanding of the fact that these are Estimates. In the House I have stated that a budget is a plan, and there is no question that there is no way that any of us knows what is going to be-even though there is really only four months left in this year, there is no way anybody is going to know specifically.

I would just like to state that I do hope the Minister and his staff, when they are continuing to work with agencies that they fund, also understand that and have the same kind of understanding of budgets as plans, that they are Estimates, that things do change, and that we all may attempt to live within our means, but sometimes external factors, costs and things do impact on that. I am just asking that the Minister and his department give to external agencies that he is work ing with on the budgeting-that the flexibility is there as well. * (1 420) Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would indicate to the Memb er that the flexibility that we are talking about is within the total costs of the two lines that we have talked about. In the Administrative Supp ort the bottom line was identical. In this particular case Total Other Expenditures have been reduced . I am saying that the flexi bil ity is withi n those small budget allocations. Ms. Barrett : Madam Acting Chair, I have a question on the footnote 2 on the same page, 29. I will confess to not knowing where-the footnote is attached to the Other Expenditures of $240,700, and the footnote states Reallocation of 25.5.

I am assu ming that is $25 ,500 to salaries. Can you explain that footnote for me, please? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, the difference of the 25.5 to Salaries reflects on an item we talked about earlier on the staff year for the Decade for the Disabled, and that was reallocated to Salary. (Depu ty Chairman in the Chair) Ms. Ba rrett : Thank you , that is all the questions I have on the specific figures, but I would like to ask a few questions on pages 28 and 29 on the Activity Identification and Results. Mr. Deputy Chairman : The Honourable Memb er for Osborne, did you not- -(i nterjection)- Okay, shall the item pass?

Some Honour able Members : No. Ms. Barr ett : Under Acti vity Identification, the second item is: Develops information and conducts reviews on soc ial service and income secur ity issues, policies and trends. I am wondering if the Minister can list for this House and table any reviews which have been undertaken in this area. Mr.

Gllleshammer: I will give you som e examples of some of the items that the Member is asking about: recently completed a review of the social allowances program's treatment of trus t fund assets, examining a range of policy issues such as wages, allowances paid to disabled workers, social assis tance to minors, regional distribution of licensed funded day care spaces; completed a major evaluation report on 19 87-88 diversion fund participants; have developed and reviewed with Provi ncial Auditor guidelines for introducing a systematic program evaluation process with the in itia ti ng pr ocess dur ing the com ing year; co-or dinate interdepartmental task force on facility access, exam ining barriers to Gov er nmen t buildings and services; help develop and distribute within Gov ernm ent access guid elin es for depar tmental services --ex amples : versions of brochures in large print or audiotape, services for hearing impaired at public meetings.

Those are some of the examples tha t this par ticular department is involved in. Ms. Barrett : Is it possible for the Minister to table that document? Mr. Gl lleshammer: We could provide some information for the Member next day. Ms. Ba rrett : I woul d appreci ate having some information on these programs, because they do sound lik e they are good things to hav e accomplished by the department. lt is helpful for us to know just exactly what is going on in this area.

Continuing the Activity Identification section, could the Minister give us some background or update or what is being done currently under the negotiations with Manitoba's cost-sh aring cla ims under the CAP and our VRDP agreements? Also explain what is happening under the develops

1356 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16, 1990 policies and stra tegies to maxim ize fe deral recove ries. Mr. Gllleshammer: Planning and Research is an ongoing pr oces s with recovery of Cana da As sis tance Plan . lt not only inclu des Fam ily Services, but also the Department of Health and the Depar tment of Jus tice. There are ongoing meetings regarding Canada Assistance Plan recovery. Ms. Barrett : So there are people in this division whose jobs include working with similar positions in Health and Jus tice Departments to connect with the federal Government in this regard ? Mr.

Gl lleshammer : Yes, the por tion of this department is the one that is active in working with the federal Government and recovering some in excess of $2 00,000,000 from the Cana da Ass istance Plan . We do that on behalf of our department but also on behalf of Health and Ju stice. The majority of it relates to Family Services. Ms. Barrett : So it is Family Services staff who negotiate with the federal Government on behalf of all three departments? Mr. Gllleshammer : That is correct. We have five staff who are involved in that process. * (1 430) Ms.

Bar rett : Another activity area is representing the de par tmen t in inte rgov e rnm ental and interdepartmental discussions related to a broad range of issues. I am wondering if the Minister can put a little meat on that quite vague kind of activity. What departmental or interdepartmental groups are dealing with this and what is their broad range of issues? Who is involved in these kind of activities? Mr.

Gllleshammer : Yes, this group meets with the federal Government and cou nterparts with other provincial Governments on policy as it relates to a number of issues that come before us, and I use an issue such as day care, so that it is a sharing of ideas between the policy group representing the two levels of Government and the other provinces. Ms. Bar rett : So is there set ongoing scheduled meetings, or is it ad hoc? What is the form that these discussions take? Mr. Gllleshammer : Yes, there are both.

There are scheduled ongoing meetings, and there are also meetings that would be arrange d to deal with specific issues as they come forward. Ms. Barrett : Mr. Deputy Chair, can the Minister discuss in a little more detail the departmental Native policy development co-ord ination function? What does it co- ordinate? What kinds of policies come out of that? Mr. Gllleshammer: There are a number of issues that come forward from organizations like the MMF , as well as the Native organizations.

This particular branch is responsible for policy development and co-or dination with some of the issues that are brought forward . There are also a numb er of tripartite negotiations that are taking place , issues involved with social assist ance , off-rese rve aboriginal people, licensing of day care and so forth. Ms. Ba rrett : These are, again, ongoing or are there some time lines that we can look for some results on these negotiations? Mr. Gllleshammer: For the most part, these are ongoing negotiations that are taking place between representatives of the Native community and this department. Ms.

Ba rrett : I would like to move on to expected results. The first one is development of a strategic pl annin g process to est ablish de par tmental priorities for the next three to five years. I would like to state first of all that I think that is an excellent idea. I hope that it actually comes to fruition. I am wondering if the Minister can give me a status on that process, where it is and what results we can see. Mr .GIII eshammer: Yes, this is a process that I think it is fai r to say is in its beginning stages.

With the amalgamation of the two departments and with my being new to the ministry, it is something that we are going to be addressing after the Estimates process, but there has been preliminary work done in this area. I am looking forward to that proceeding in the coming months. Ms. Barrett : Yes, under the social policy research and dev elopmen t in suppor t of departme ntal priorities, could the Minister expand on that a little bit? Mr. Gllleshammer: The items that I listed before for you are ongoing and are the results of some of the activities that have been undertaken in Planning and Research. Ms.

Barrett : Back to a bit on who actually does these things--1 am not sur e if this is a very clear question or not-but there are 16 professional and technical people in this area. Can you give me a brief overview of the kinds of duties that these people

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 57 undertake? Maybe if there are job classifications, or are they all under one kind of classification? Mr. Gllleshammer: Primarily they are program analyst positions, some of them more senior than others. Others are working on co-or dinating the work for the program analyst. Ms. Barrett: Ove r to the next pa ge, the co-or dination of the department's review of Core Area Initiative project proposals, can I have an expansion on that, please? Page 29. Mr.

Gllleshammer: The Member is aware that the Core Area Initiative is a tripartite agreement. lt includes initiatives in Family Services as well as Health, Education and others. There are times when we are asked to comment on some of the initiatives and be involved from the Family Services' point of view. Ms. Barrett : You are sort of a friend of the court rather than commenting from the professional point of view, or are there specific projects that are being asked to be funded by Family Services? What do you do with these proposa ls? * (1 440) Mr.

Gllleshamm er: When projects come forward where the provincial Government has to respond, some of them would fall within the area of Family Services, and we would be asked to comment on whether this is a dupl ication of existing services or whether this is something that already is taking place, funded or handled by another agency. We are asked to be involved in terms of commenting or some input on it. Ms. Barrett : Is it possible to get a list of some of those pro posa ls that the de par tment has commented on? Mr. Gllleshammer : I think that more appropriately you would seek that from the Core Area committee.

We are asked by them to provide some input and comment and we provide it for them. I think it would be their responsibility to provide any information for you on that. Ms. Barrett: A clarification of the process, where in the process the department comes: A proposal is m�de to Core Area for funding and Core Area says th1s has, at least some part of it-the Department of Family Services would be knowledgeable about the utility of this kind of program or its duplication of service , that sort of thing.

They bring it to the department, ask for the department's comments and then the department issues those comments saying, yes, we fund this, or there are X number of agencies currently in the city or the province, or in the cit y doing this work. Do you mak e recommendations as to whether you think Core Area should go ahead with this project? Mr. Gllleshammer: The Urban Affairs Department co-or dinates the provincial input into Core Area, and we may be asked to comment to them on various aspects of a proposal and provide our perspective on it. Ms. Barrett : One final comment on this.

So the proposals go funnelled through the Department of Urban Affairs who then determines that they would like some input from the Department of Fa mily Service. You give that input and it goes back to Urban Affairs? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, that is essentially correct. They may be asking for input from a number of depar tmen ts on a par ticular issue , but it is co-or dinated through Urban Affairs. Ms. Bar rett : This, I promise, is my final question. Do you ever make recommendations as to whether you think the project should be funded or not? Is that part of what you are som etimes asked to do? Mr.

Gllleshammer: That decision is not made by Family Services. We are simply asked to give some information, and the decision on whether programs, projects put forward is made elsewhere. Ms. Ba rrett : You may upon occasion recommend that a project be approved, is that correct? Mr. Glllesham mer: We are one voi ce in the decision making. We may indicate that something is a dupl ication of existing services, or we may indicate that something would be desirable to take an initiative in that area, but again, we are one voice in the decision-m aking process. Ms. Bar rett : I have no further questions in this area. Mr.

Alcock: I have a few, but just to follow up on that last one as it is fresh in the Minister's mind. You are called upon to pass a judgment or offer an opinion on a great many projects funded by the Core Area, the Winnipeg Foundation, the United Way and others who wou ld come to you . Your advice I suspect would be more than just incidental, it would be central to whether or not a project gets approval or not. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, we are involved with the Core Area in ma king recom men dations or

1358 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16, 1990 suggestions or providing advice, but again, I would em phasize we are simply one voice in the decision-making process. Mr. Alcock: Can you describe the process that you have for dealing with those requests? You specif ically had mentioned the Core Area, but would not the same case be true from, for example, The Winnipeg Foundation? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am informed that we are not kno wle dgeable of any requ ests for recommendations from those other bodies. Mr.

Alcock: We will leave that until maybe Monday, but on the question of the Core Area, what process do you use for evaluating these fequests ? Mr. Gl lleshammer : They ar e reviewed with de par tme nta l staff and feedback from staff members is received and decisions are made, and recommendations are made. Mr. Alcock: Are those decisions shared with the groups who are applying for assistance? Mr. Gl lleshamm er: The di alogue that the department enters into is with the Core Area when the request comes through them. Mr. Alcock: I understand that. Now pre sumably a request comes forward.

Some sort of examination is conducted, if I understood the discussi on. The department that would be affected by the particular program might be consu lted. There might be some examination of how this proposed project would fit into departmental operations. Then presu mably some sort of recommendation would be generated and that would be conveyed to the Core Area. The question is, does the department share those recom men da tions with gr oups ma king the application? Mr. Gllleshammer: No, the information is shared with the people who have brought it forth from the Core Area. Mr.

Alcock: Would the Minister have an objection to sharing those recommendations with the groups making representation? Mr. Gllleshammer: The process is that the groups making the presentations make them to Core Area. Core Area will go out and seek advice and seek rec ommen dations. Our relationship has been strictly with the Core Area and the officials who make the request to us. Mr.

Alcock: Okay, well, let us come at it from the Core Area's perspective then. lf the Core Area were to receive a request from a group to share with that group the recommendations from the Department of Family Services, would you have any objection to that information being released? Mr. Gllleshammer : I am not sure how Core Area gives feedback to the various groups that come forward to it, whether there has been a lack of information, but we feel that the responsibility to pass on that information is with the Core Area. Mr.

Alcock: The question was if a group were to request through the Core Area for a copy of that rec ommen da tion or the su bsta nce of the recommendation, would the department have any objection to that information being shared? Mr. Gllleshammer: We are one piece of the pie, so to speak, in the decision making process. I am not aware how Core Area relates to the groups that come forward and approach it for funding or make their requests of it. I think it is important that the feedback they get is from a central authority that has all of the facts and figures before them. Mr.

Alcock: I understand the Minister's response in terms of the broader response the Core Area might make to a group, but let us just speak about his piece of the pie for a moment. If a group wanted just his piece of the pie, would the department be prepared to make that information available? Mr. Gllleshammer: The responsibility would be with Cor e Ar ea. If they wa nted to re lease information, we have not voiced any objections to that. Mr. Alcock: I am pleased to hear that. I think that is a responsible position to take.

If a group were to come forward to the department through freedom of information and request that information, would it be available to them? Mr. Gllleshammer : We would have to look at it on a case specific basis, but we would have to comply with the law of the land. * (1 450) Mr. Alcock: Well, let us leave that one for a moment. Ju st a couple of quick questions on the budget as it is presented here, the issues manager that is seconded from this department to the Minister's office , does funding for that show up in this salary line? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt would not show in this year's budget.

This budget, as the Member is well aware, was prepared prior to some of the staffing changes

November 16 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 59 that he has inquired about. lt will show up in next year's budget. Mr. Alcock: Pres umably, the staff pe rson in question though is not volunteering until the end of March, so where is that money being drawn from? Mr. Gllleshammer: As I have indicated before, it was vacant term time that we have applied to this position. Mr. Alcock: But part of the overall $945 ,700 that is allocated against this division? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Alcock: So presumably the managerial position is adequately filled.

The 15 or 16 profess ional technical positions, one of them is youth programs for Decade of Disabled Persons, I presu me. Then this position is part of the other 15 positions, some part of some vacant position there that has some time available? Mr. Gllleshammer: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: How many of these professional and technical people function as issue managers? Mr. Glllesham mer: lt is the overall responsibility of the branch to co-ord inate issues, but probably two people would have specific responsibility. Mr. Alcock : Would both of those people have regular daily or weekly contact with the press? Mr.

Gllleshammer : They do not. That is handled through our communications. Mr. Alcock : So this person that is seconded to the Minister's office from this department does not have any responsibility for dealing with the press? Mr. Gllleshammer: Because of her previou s position and her relationship with people in the press , there is time to time that she has interaction with them. Mr. Alcock: Coffee interaction or action under the direction of the Minister or the Deputy Minister? Mr. GIIIe shammer : I am sorry, I could not hear what you said. Mr.

Alcock: I was not certain whether it was an ongoing sort of relationship and coffee- time chatter or whether it was action that was under the direction of the Minister or Deputy. You say the interaction she is having with the press is at the direction of the Minister or simply because she has an ongoing relati onship tha t may result in her meeting somebody in the hall and having a chat? Mr. Gllleshammer: I would say it is a result of former relationships or friendships that she has made.

The job that she is doing is to work with the Deputy Minister and myself under this particular Planning and Research on particular issues. Mr. Alcock : Finally, to bring this to a close then, what the Minister is saying is that this individual has no responsibility, does not act under the direction of the Minister or the Deputy Minister in a formal way with the press? Mr. Gllleshammer: We have other staff that perform that function, and this person is responsible for working with the Deputy and myself on issues within the department. Mr. Alcock: A yes or a no. Mr.

Gllleshammer: The person you are inquiring about is responsible for working with the Depu ty and myself on issues, has no responsibility for working with the press. Mr. Alcock: Thank you very much.

Okay, this is an interesting division, this one, and I have always found the work that it has done in the past to be of interest, not always recei ved fondly by other depar tments, but it ce rtainly does challeng e operations in other departments. lt forms a major linkage between the province and the federal Government and can, if used properly, form a connection with other departments as we look at some sort of joint planning. We spent almost $1 .2 million on forms of issue management.

I would just like to walk through a number of these things now, because this is in a sense the policy research arm of the department. I presume this is the group that the Minister would turn to if he has a concern about an emerging issue or some operational issue that is raising concerns with the department in a broad sense, as opposed to a specific program sense. The Member from Wellington (Ms. Barr ett) mentioned the issue of the goods and services tax.

This is an issue I realize is not within the purview of this Minister to enter into negotiations with the federal Government on this issue, but there has been a great deal of concern expr essed by not-for- profit agencies. In fact the Mi nister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and I discussed this at some le ngth betwe en the fina nce Esti mates, bu t not-for-profit agencies, and this Ministry has the major relationship with not-for-profit agencies of any

1360 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 16 , 19 90 agency in the prov ince, will be very seriously impacted by the goods and services tax. There is, according to the Minister of Rnance as recently as a week ago, yet to be established rules for these agencies. I mean this thing will become a reality if the Honoura ble Allan Mac Eachen fails in his valiant attempts to protect us from this. lt will become a reality in six weeks.

I am wondering what work has gone on between the department and presumably this division and those not-fo r-profit agencies that received funding from this department to prepare them for their management of this particular new tax. Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, as you point out, the Department of Finance will be taking a lead in this particular area of the GST. lt is an issue that cuts across many departments. We are cognizant of the fact that it is going to have some impact but at this time do not have the information or the experience to be very definitive on that.

We are aware that there will be some rebate, an offsetting of some costs, but it is difficult to be any more definitive than that. Mr. Alcock: I am not by any means ex pecting the Minister to advance or defend any of the arguments about the worthiness of this tax. I am much more interested in the operational side of it as far as this department goes. How many not-for-profit agencies relate to this department? Mr. Gllleshamm er: There would be in excess of 200. * (1 500) Mr. Alcock: So there are in excess of 200 agencies which rely largely in the most

part I suspect on this department for funding, 200 agencies that will be impacted by the goods and services tax , 200 agencies that will have an increase in their operating cost and yet to be determined clarity about what things- whether they are zero rated, whether they are tax exempt. There is a whole series of questions when it comes to the status of not-for-profits. I know the day care association, the trucking association has done a rather detailed study of it, as has the National Association for Not- For-P rofits.

There are serious problems arising now. l would like to know what studies the department has conducted to determine the impact on these 200 agencies that they fund . Mr. Gllleshammer: We have not conducted any direct studies on that. The Department of Finance is taking the lead in this area, and is co-or dinating a Government-wide look at the goods and services tax. In saying that the Department of Finance is taking a lead on it, we have provided information and data to the Department of Finance to assist them in their work. Mr.

Alcock: There have been no people from this department working with the Department of Finance on this? I see one of their roles here is to co-ord inate interdepartmental activity. Mr. Gllleshammer : Yes, there have been staff worki ng with the Depar tment of Finance and providing information for them. Mr.

Alcock: Assuming this tax comes into effect when it is planned to come into effect, given that could happen six weeks from now and that agencies are getting into their end-of-year cycle and that they are going to have to start writing cheques that will or will not include GST, and are writing cheques for certain items right now that may or may not include GST, and they may or may not have inventory adj ustme nts to ma ke , wha t advice has this department offered to this date to assist them with those decisions? Mr.

Gllleshammer : This is one of the variables that we are all going to be facing and agencies are going to have to take that into account in doing their budgets. lt is something that I have indicated the Depa rtment of Finance, as far as our Government is concerned, is taking the lead on. We will be working closely with finance but also monitoring the situation carefully and seeing how it turns out. Mr. Alcock: Then perhaps I misunderstand the role of this division.

Does this division of this department not see itself as having a responsibility to work with those agencies that are going to be so dramatically impacted by this new tax, agencies which it funds largely? Is it not your responsibility to do something with them? Mr. Gllleshammer: Our Planning and Research people are working with the Minister of Rnance (Mr. Manness) and Finance people. They are taking the lead on the Government-wide response to the GST. Certainly we will be working with the agencies, but we all have to make the best decision that we can, given that this will impact on budgets in the next few months.

Mr. Alcock: Perhaps then the Minister can tell us what recommendations this division has made in the work that it has done as to the cost impact on

November 16 , 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 61 services that the full implementation of the GST will have. I am sure he can tell us that. Mr. Gllleshammer: This was an area that was not provided for in this particular budget, but this dep artment and this branch of Planning and Research will be working with Finance and a Gov ernme nt-w ide response to GST. We will certainly be taking that into account with the next budget. If there have to be corrective measures tak en at that time, it will have to co me into consideration with the budget that we table in the next budget year. Mr.

Alcock : Help me understand this. We are six week s away from it, and you have not yet determined any kind of indication of what the size of the impact this is going to have on services? Mr. Gllleshammer: The Government made the decision to have this co-ordinated by Finance. ! think that Governments across this country, agencies across this country, are still in the process of trying to predict what impact GST is going to have. We do not have any more definitive answer than that at this time.

The Department of Fi nance is cur rently working on this, and I would suggest it would be a more appropriate place for the Member to get his information. Mr. Alcock: Well, the De partment of Finance referred me to the Department of Family Services in fact, so there was a bit of confusion in that. We are talking about this year's budget. We are talking a budget that is to fund services through to the end of March, so that includes one-quar ter of this fiscal year. These agencies will be paying GST on some things.

One-qu arter of this year you will be paying, in your departmental ope rations, GST on some things, or you will not be paying GST on some things. I realize that some of these things are yet to be clarified, but surel y, given that this thing has been two and a half years in preparation and there have been mountains of paper produced on it, you have some idea of what is going to happen six weeks from now. Surely you know something about it. Let us start off with a simple question. Will people pay GST on day care rates? * (1 51 0) Mr.

Gllleshammer: I would tell the Member that we are being pro-active as far as the GST is concerned in areas where it will impact basic needs. I would give you an example of that in the area of social assistance where a decision has been made not to reclaim or regard GST rebates as additional income. I think that certainly other areas are going to have to live within their budgeted allocations, and if we have to make corre ctive steps within the next budget, that is a decision that has yet to be made. Mr.

Alcock: Well, let me deal with both of those issues, because I noticed a week or 1 0 days ago that the Gov ernment did make a decision not to include GST rebates in the calculation of income. I noticed the amendment to the regulation that went through in the 0/Cs. I commented on that to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) and I will do the same to this Minister. I think that was the right thing to do. I think that was a progressive step and something that not all provinces have chosen to follow.

I regret that because all of the studies suggest that this tax is going to have a very negative impact on the lowes t income group in our community and that rebate is to offset that. To have included that in income would have been a very regressive thing to do, and I am pleased you did not. I think you are to be complimented for that. I am somewhat concerned that we . are now six weeks away from the day that this thing becomes reality, that people are currently unde rtaking expenditures and prepaying tax on certain things, and you do not even know what the impact is going to be on the services that you fund.

That strikes me as a very serious problem. There are day care rates, there are foste r care rat es. Are the non-pr ofit agencies going to pay the GST? Can they collect it back? There are all sorts of questions that are simply technical in nature, and I think they deserve answers. I would have thought that a planning and research division would have answers to those questions. Mr. Gllleshammer: The answers in many cases that you are searching for are not available and are currently being studied by Finance. When these answers are available, we will certainly make them public. Mr.

Alcock: You do not know what the answers are, but despite that, agencies have to live within their budgets and try to deliver services with budgets that are already seriously constrained, absorb the GST, and still deliver the same level of service in the hopes that you will make a decision in another year to help them out with this. lt is that very hope that

1362 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 16 , 19 90 has got them into trouble already, in the hopes that you would pick up exp enditures that you have not subsequently picked up. Mr. Gllleshammer: I would indicate the hopes that the Member talks about are often raised by him. We all are anticipating the GST, and agency boards will have to do some anticipation as well in terms of their costs. Mr. Alcock: I believe the Memb er for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) has a question or two on this. Ms. Ba rrett : I would like some clarification from the Minister on this area.

I mentioned it earlier in the con text of the Co mmu nica tions and Other Expenditures items that we have been discussi ng where no departmental changes in funding have been look ed at vis-a-vi s the GST, and I am understanding why now. I know that the Minister and his staff are in negotiations cu rrently with all the Child and Family Service agencies in order for them to be able to access the $2 million emergency relief funds that were promised by the previous Minister in February of this year.

I will not comment yet again on the definition of emergency that allows for eight months to go by before any of this money flows, nor the costs that are being incurred by those agencies in paying bank ch arges and ot her expenses ba sed on the understanding that this money would flow . Howev er, carrying along with a concern raised by the Memb er for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) , what directions are the Minister and his staff giving to these agencies when they are talking with them about producing a balanced budget for the next fiscal year when the Department of Family Services and the Department of Finance do not have their own sense of priorities or their own sense of where this GST is going to be felt, what kinds of services the GST is going to have an impact on? What directions is the Minister giving to these agencies for presenti ng a bala nced budget? I understand that they have met with several of the Child and Family Service agencies who have presented a balanced budget.

Do these budgets include some sort of expansion of costs to take into account the goods and services tax? Have these agencies themselves presented budgets which take into account the goods and services tax impact? Mr. Gllleshammer: In working with the Child and Family Services agencies that the Member talks about, there are a number of variables in their budget. We are asking them to take those variables into consideration whether it be utilities or other expenses.

Department staff are prepared to work with the agencies on those budgets to bring in a balanced budget, and one of the variables could well be some GST costs. Ms. Ba rrett : Could well be. Can the Minister state that these agencies are being asked to calculate potential-let me back up just a moment. We all understand that one of the main problems with the goods and se rvices tax, apart from its basic unfairness which I will not go into, one of the major problems with it, is that nobody knows exactly what is going to be taxed, what the impact is going to be.

Given that, we all do know that barring some action by the federal Senate, the goods and services tax will be in place. The Minister has kept talking about the need to provide balanced budgets to take into account all kinds of variables to plan efficiently and effectively. lt would appear that perhaps his own Planning and Research Department is unable to do that. Is the Minister asking for these Child and Family Services agencies to include in their variables a certain amount of estimated cost increases to take in to account the go ods an d services tax implications? Mr.

Gllleshamm er: We are talking about the '90-91 budget and that has not been built into the budget. We are not sure at this point what offsets there will be, but we are looking at perhaps two or three percent of the budget; we are also only looking at a quarter of the year. So we are asking them in terms of next year to look at all of the variables, but we are wanting them to live within a balanced budget. We have been very clear about that. Ms.

Ba rrett : So the depar tment is asking the agencies to bring down a balanced budget for '91 -9 2, taking into account all of the variables which we anticipate will include the goods and services tax? Mr. Gllleshamm er: That is correct. Ms. Bar rett : Howeve r, in response to questions by the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) , it would appear that neither the Planning and Research division nor the Department of Finance have yet come up with any kind of guidelines or any kind of sugges ted perce ntage increases for suggested

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 63 types of goods and services which these agencies might be looking at, either making cuts in their ex penditu res or making realistic ad ditional requests. There is no set of guidelines or assistance at this point in helping those agencies bring down a balanced budget? Mr. Gllleshammer: At this time we do not have any specific numbers that we can give them. When we have more specifics on GST and how it is going to impact their budgets, we may have to take some corrective action. Ms.

Barrett : When you say corrective action, am I correct in assuming that means if the goods and services tax comes in by the time these-the implications are that, by the time the actual '91-92 budget year begins-or prior to that if possible- the Fam ily Ser vices Mini ste r and staff will tak e cognizance of the impact of the goods and services tax on these budgets of these agencies and will say that, given that you wer e unable to pr ovide assistance in the planning and preparing of these budgets previous to the goods and se rvices tax coming in, you would then take into account the impa ct that it has had, and ma ke budget adjustments for those additional costs for those agencies once they are known?

" (1 520) Mr. Gllleshammer: This is one of the variables in their budgets, and let me just say it is a possibility that we are going to have to make adjustments if the impact of GST is really dramatic. Ms. Barrett: Okay, just to clarify, you are now asking the agencies to take into account the GST variable when making their '91 -92 budgets. You are also not providing any guidance or assistance to them in that regard. They are still dealing with their '90-91 budgets and major cost overruns and major deficit problems that they are dealing with.

So this is an additional concern that these agencies have, with no support at this point from the Department of Family Services. You are then suggesting the possibility that some additional funding might be made available when the goods and services tax comes in, if the costs are determined to be be extensive. I cannot remember the exact words you used .

When you were talking earli er about Communications and some of those ope rating expenses in your department, I got the impression that there was a great deal of flexibility that was built in, because we did not know what the impact of the goods and services tax was going to be. I agreed with that at the time and said I hoped the same degree of flexi bility would be apparent when discussing the budgetary requirements of Child and Family Services and other agencies funded by this department. I am afraid at this point I am not hearing that kind of flexibility out of the Minister.

I would like to ask either that there be professional advice given to these agencies when they are planning their budgets so that they can attempt to live within them, or if the understanding is that the department does not have the ability to give that kind of professional advice, that will be automatically taken into account when the impact of the GST is better known on these agencies. Can the Minister give us that assurance? Mr. Gllleshammer: We have not asked them to take the GST into consideration for their '91 -92 budgets at this point.

A number of their major expend itures such as the flow- through money to foster parents and salaries are not impacted by the GST. lt is premature to say at this time what impact the GST is going to have. We have not asked them to factor that into their '91 -92 budgets. We may have to go back and revisit that if the impact is greater than we anticipated. Ms. Bar rett: "If the impact is greater than we anticipate," the Minis ter jus t stated. Could the Minister give us a figure or an estimated percentage increase that corresponds to "is greater than we anticipate?" Mr. Gllleshammer: No, I cannot give you a figure.

I am saying that a lot of the money in the agencies goes to salaries and the payment for foster parents. I cannot give you a definitive figure on the impact of the GST. I think this is something that our Finance Depa rtment is stru ggling with . I think this is something all the provinces are struggling with. We do not have that definitive information at this time. Ms.

Barrett : I understand and agree and have no quarrel with that, and that is something that we all in our personal lives, as well as our professional lives, are dealing with. lt is an enormous problem. ! do not want to belabour the point, but I do feel that it is important that we have, not only in the Estimates process, but that the message is as clear as possible to the agencies that are being asked to produce budgets to be funded.

1364 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16 , 1990 Granted that the largest amount of money spent by these agencies is for salaries for staff who actually provide the services, as we have said in the House before, and for some flow-thr ough monies that are not impacted on by the GST, but there are also substantial monies that these agencies are req uir ed to expend on items such as Other Expend itures that are in this budget. Those do impact and they will have an impact on these agencies' ability to produce a balanced budget.

My concern is that if they are not being asked now to factor in the goods and services tax, and even if they do factor in a certain percentage increase, it turns out tha t the percentage increase is greater than that. I am hearing that there is not a commitment on the part of the Government or this department to say yes, we will help you.

We will make sure that the budget figures that we are asking you to prepare now, when none of us know what is happening-you will not have to take again money out of the bottom line that we give you because nobody knew what the impact was going to be of the GST, and therefore you are going to have to take out of your bottom-line expenditures those additional costs. I think that is not the way we should handle the situation, particularly in a transition year such as we are going to be going into with the goods and services tax. Mr.

Gllleshammer: As I have indicated, it is one of the variables in their budget that they are going to accom modate. If the impact is very serious and very negative, it is something that this department is going to have to revisit and act accordingly. Ms. Bar rett : I have just a final comment. I certainly hope that the department will be as flexible, as I have said before, with its agencies that it funds and understanding that everybody is doing their best in a situation that nobody knows what is going to happen, as they most likely will be in their own departmental Estimates. Mr. Alcock: Mr.

De puty Chairpers on, can the Minister tell us, in all this time and all the work that has gone on, can you tell us whether there is a single study extant in this division that even overviews the issues? Is there a background work ing document on this issue as it impacts on social service agencies? Mr. Gllleshammer: Not in this department. lt is in the Department of Finance, and we have provided input to the Department of Finance. Mr. Alcock: Does the Department of Finance share that information with you? Mr.

Gllleshammer: lt is in a working document stage at this time and we do not have the details of the review. • (1 530) Mr. Alcock: Six weeks before this thing is to hit, you are not even sharing the information between departments. Is that what the Minister is telling us? Mr. Gllleshammer: I am telling you that it is not in the final form at this time. We have been working with the Department of Finance on the issue of the GST. The Department of Finance is taking the lead role in determining the impact of the GST. Mr. Alcock: Has the Department of Finance shared any of their conclusi ons with you at all?

Mr .GI IIeshammer: They are still working on it; they have not given us any final conclusions on it as yet. Mr. Alcock: lt is six weeks away and you do not know whether day care rates are taxable, foster care payments are taxable. You do not know what the impact is going to be on budgets. You do not know whether the fees people pay at workshops are taxable. You do not know whether the transportation costs that children and families are incurring are taxable. You do not know what the impact is going to be on the living allowances of dependent adults. Have you not done anything on this? Mr.

Gllleshammer: The department has done a considerable amount of work with the Department of Finance. They have not arrived at conclusions at this time that we can present to you . Mr. Alcock: If you have done this work, can you share any of it with us? Mr. Gllleshammer: lt is still in a working document form. We are one of 15 or 18 departments that have shared this information with the Department of Finance, and it is not in a final form at this time. I have indicated with the agencies, a large portion of their budget is salaries, foster payments, and there will be some--we expect some rebate on some of the items.

We do not have a definitive answer for you at this time. Mr. AI cock: I frankly do not know what to say on this particular issue. lt just astounds me that we could be this close to a decision that is this major and is going to impact as many people as it will impact, and you do not know what is going on. You cannot even share a thought on that, other than to say, well, we

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1365 will look at it down the road and maybe we will pick it up. That is what has got these agencies into the kind of budget difficulties they are in right now, is exactly that kind of policy and that kind of operational policy on the part of this department. I think it is time you changed some of that, you started being a little pr o-acti ve and you started looking at issues again-1 mean, this is not a surprise . We did not just learn last week that there is going to be a goods and services tax. We have known it for two years.

The thought that you have not done the background work necessar y astounds me frankly. I would have assum ed there would have been some kind of working docum ent, some plan to have a workshop with these agencies or some plan to issue a guideline to them. I cannot believe that we are this close and you do not know what the hell is going on. Mr. Gllleshammer : The Member is drawing the GST into the problems that agencies have had with their budgets. This particular budget that we are discussing for '90-9 1 covers the entire year, and you are emphasizing the last three months of it.

The GST is something that is being studied across this land. There are a lot of questions that have not been answered on it yet. We are working actively with our Department of Rnance to give a Government-wide response to the GST. That information is still in the Department of Finance and will be shared with you when it is in a more finalized stage. Mr. Alcock: lt is not so much the GST I am commenting on, Mr. Depu ty Chairperson. lt is your policy of funding these agencies which time after time comes after the fact, once they have run up huge interest costs, once they are in trouble.

Then you come along with some sort of noblesse oblige approach to bail them out, force them onto their knees and force them to come begging to you all the time for something that you should have taken into consideration before it hit them. These agencies simply do not have the flexibility to carry the kind of load that you continue to put on them. You know that. You see that all the time. I will give another question unless the Minister would like to respond . Point of Order Mrs. Rosemary Vodrey (Fort Garry): Mr. Deputy Chair, on a point of order, the Member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) using the phrase "what the hell" in this committee. Mr. Alcock: I could correct that. I said you do not know what the hell you are doing. Mrs. Vodrey : I would like to raise a point of order on that. Mr. Deputy Chairman: I will take a look at it, and I will give you an answer to it in just a minute. *** Mr. Gllleshammer: The Member wants to get into the discussion of agency budgets. We have indicated, and this budget will show, a 15 percent increase year over year with last year's budget. The Memb er here in committee and elsewhere wants to indicate that we are cutting back.

The increase for agencies has doubled in the last five years. Government is trying to respond as best it can within the limited means that we have. We are responsible to the taxpayers of this province. We have given the largest increase across Government to this particular department, an increase of 8.2 pe rcent. We are aski ng ag encies to mak e management decisions, and we are working with those agencies at the present time to come up with balanced budgets.

The Member well knows that there is deficit relief that will be flowing when balanced budg ets are arrived at betwee n the department and the agencies. *** Mr. Deputy Chairman: I will just answer back on that point of order. On the point of order, it was not a point of order. I would like to thank the Honourable Memb er for bringing it up. I would also like to ask the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock ) to try and choose his words a little more carefully. Thank you. Mr. Alcock: Thank you , Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I appreciate that admonition. *** Mr.

Alcock: You are asking the agencies to review their management practices. You are asking them to manage better, and you cannot give them a single

1366 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA November 16 , 1990 piece of advice on an issue that has been at the front of your management for two years. Now I think it is about time you tried to work with these agencies in some facilitative manner to help them deal with the circumstances that confront them so that they can get down to the business of delivering services instead of fighting with you guys all the time. Mr. Gllleshammer: I would hasten to point out that we are worki ng in a facilitative manner. lt is the Member for Osborne that keeps raising this in the newspaper and making this a confronta tion .

Agencies are working with this department on the balanced budgets. There is some tough work to do. There are some tough decisions to make, and those are being made. Mr. Alcock : I would remind the Minister that it was his Prem ier Mr. Filmo

n) that ques tioned the competence of agency management, not this side of the House . I do not think that represents an attitude of work ing with people. Mr. Gllleshammer: lt is the Honour able Member's comments that we see in the paper day after day on the is sue of the rela tion ship betw een the department and the agencies. I can tell you that we are working with the agencies. I met with the agency presidents and their director some two weeks ago. We had a very good meeting in terms of working out some partnerships.

I think that the Member has to know that there is a lot of work going on behind the scenes between the department and the agencies to resolve this problem. Mr. Alcock : A lot of work going on behind the scenes. When I ask you to share a simple working docu ment on the goods and services tax, you cannot produce it, despite the fact you have had two years to do it. Mr. Gllleshammer : I have indicated to the Memb er tha t we do not have that do cumen t. The docu mentation for the goods and services tax is in the Department of Finance. Mr. Alcock: Let us not belabour this one.

Do you want to ask more questions on the goods and services? Let the Member for Wellington do it. * (1 540) Us. Barrett : I would like to state that I have also made comments about the concerns raised about the management skills of Child and Family Service agencies, not raised particularly by this Minister, but by his Premier. Howev er, I think that it may be going around and around Robin Hood's barn to continue to belabour the fact that six week s before the goods and services tax is in, agencies do not have a clear understanding of what the impacts are going to be.

The departments do not have a clear understanding of what the impacts on their budgets are going to be. That is a given for whatever reasons, and I am not com pletely sur e that it is a total departmental responsibility. I have been at workshops where people who spend their entire time dealing with the goods and services tax cannot answer the questions. I think it is their responsibility, and the onus is on the people who put together this tax and put together the docum ents that were sup posed to help all of us do it who should bear a good deal of the responsibility and the blame.

Given the fact that we are looking at the probability of the goods and services tax, given the fact that none of us have a really good idea of what the impact on these goods and services that agencies provide is going to be, again my concern is that agencies who are doing their best to comply with the directives of the department when they are working with the department, that the department not-1 am using the word punish, and I think that is too strong a word.

I do not mean to use that, but I cannot think of another word- six months down the road when the impact of the GST becomes clearer, that the department does not say : Well, yes, we passed your balanced budget; we have approved it. Oh, dear, the goods and services tax is having a 5 percent impact on this part of your budget and we only-both the department and the agency working in conjunction-w orked out an impact of 2 percent, and there is that extra 3 percent impact that is going to be handled.

My concern is that those agencies are going to be told by this Government: Too bad, you have to find ways withi n your budget that we passed to take up that extra 3 percent that nobody knew was going to happen. We all acted in good faith. We all passed this budget, and this is not

an act of God that is going to come down on us in six months. We know there is an impact. We also know we do not know what that impact is going to be. I would like assurances from this Government that having gone through all of that in good faith the Government will not say: Fine, you have this extra money, these extra expenses, find it from within.

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 13 67 I would take very great exception to that, because that is not the fault of management practices. That is not the fault of service delivery. That is a completely external factor-that we know is going to have an impact, but nobody knows what that impact is going to be. I think it would be reprehensible for those agencies to bear that extra burden. I am concerned because I am not hearing from the Minis ter, that yes , that is the way this Government will go on this when the impacts of the GST are known.

I would like to ask the Minister if he could give us that guarantee. Mr. Gllleshammer: First of all, I appreciate the Member's comments and I think putting some of the comments on the GST into perspective. That is the sort of thing that we would be prepared to review. We are not sure what the impact is going to be, but I think it is something that this department and Government is going to monitor, and Governments across this cou ntry are going to have to monitor I would say that it is something this department would certainly review and see what sort of an impact the GST will have on agencies. Ms.

Barrett : I acce pt the need to review and monitor. I would like again that additional step and yes, review and monitor the effects of the GST and assure agencies that having operated and acted in good faith on the part of everybody concerned, they will not have to take on the additional responsibilities that this goods and services tax may have on them.

As you me ntione d ear lier, whe n the amalgamation of the two departments took place you were in a transition period, that there were some adjustments that had to be made, some figures higher, some figures lower, everybody understands that that requires flexibility and budgeting for a period of time because it takes time for those things to sort themselves out.

I am suggesting that this is for each agency an even greater concern and that ought to be taken into account, and I would like to have it very clearly stated that it will not only be monitored and reviewed, but that agencies will not have to take that ad ditional respon sibil ity on themselves. Mr .GII Iesham mer : You are asking us to project into the next budget year and answer questions on the '91 -92 budget and we simply cannot do that.

I am afraid I have gone as far as I am going to go, that we are prepared to monitor it and review it, and just as the GST when it comes into effect, if it comes into effect, is going to impact on all of us, it is certainly going to be som ething that all Governments, all agencies, all families, all individuals are going to have to look at and adjust to. Mr. Alcock : There are some givens in it. We know it is going to be on legal fees ; we know that it is going to be on psycholog ists' fees, et cetera, so there is some ability to calculate those impacts today.

Let us move off that one for a minute and let us talk about another related policy. What level of support does the department currently give agencies to pay the payroll tax? Mr. Gllleshammer: I think that would be better discussed when we get to the budget lines on the agencies. Mr. Alcock: I just wanted to ask you though, is there a departmental policy? I am not talking about any specific agencies, just any of the 200 agencies that the department funds that have a sufficie ntly large staff that they have to pay the tax. What is the support policy? What level of sup port is given to pay that tax? Mr.

Gllleshammer: There is no overall Government policy on support for the payroll tax with the Child and Family Service agencies. They are sup ported at the rate of 1. 5 percent. Mr. Alcock: I appreciate the Minister clarifying that particular

section of it because that has been an item that has been in dispute. The Minister is saying that the agencies are supported to the level of 1 .5 percent but expected to pay 2.25 percent. I will leave the discussion about the correction of that to that particular line, but I think at the policy end of it, I asked that same question of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). The Minister of Finance said the policy was to suppo rt agencies to 2. 35 percent, one- tenth of 1 percent above the taxable rate, to cover some of the administrative costs. You can check the Hansard.

You will find it in the public record. * (1 550) He indicated to me at that time that if agencies could subs tanti ate that they wer e not bein g sup ported to the full two and a quarter, possibly 2. 35 -1 will not dispu te the other tenth of 1 percent-but the 2.25 level which is the level that you are clawing back from them, that he would hear a presentation on that and see if that was adjusted. I would urge that the Minister undertake to do that.

1368 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITO BA November 16, 1990 I would also ask the Minister to look into the question of the additional one-tenth of 1 percent because there are compliance costs involved in preparing and paying that tax. lt is something that has accumulated ever since the tax was raised to 2.25 percent. They have been paying three-q uarters of 1 percent on their payrolls from that day on. That is another piece that has accumulated and not been, as the Minister suggested-it was his suggestion that this would then create a deficit and that deficit would be picked up.

This has been specifica lly excluded from that deficit recovery, and I understand the instruction to the agencies right now is that they are not allowed to include that three-qu arte rs of 1 percent in their bu dget calcula tions for this year. Mr. Gllleshammer : We will certainly review this. My information is that agencies are supp orted to 1. 5 percent. Mr. Alcock: We will leave this item until we get into specific agency lines. I would like to return to it then. I do want to sincerely thank the Minister for clarifying that because that has been an issue of dispute for some time.

I think it is important that we deal with the substance of that particular issue rather than the questions about the management abilities of certain agencies. I would like to move on though in this whole area that this division is responsible for, this whole area of federal-pr ovincial negotiations. I understand that the CAP agreements, the CAP funding discussions are under way right now.

I understand from a memb er of the Feder al- Provincial Rela tion s Division in Finance that he was at a meeting in Halifax , I believe just recently, to begin a preliminary look at the negotiations relative to future programs under the Canada Assistance Plan. I wonder if this department has been involved in those discussions. Mr. Gllleshammer: Not at this time at a formal level. Mr. Alcock : CAP provides a very considerable amount of the funds that are administered by this department.

In fact, I would think other than for some bits and pieces, virtually all of the CAP money coming into this province would be spent by this department. Would that not be the case? Mr. Gllleshamm er: The majority of CAP funds are spent by this department. Also, I think Education and Health are recipients of some CAP funds. Mr. Alcock: Yes, it is my understanding that one of the agreements, the CAP agreement, I believe from the Ministry of Finance, is renegotiated every five years, and that agreement is coming to an end in 19 91 . Is that the case? Mr.

Gllleshammer: I am told that CAP is ongoing and is not negotiated every five years. Mr. Alcock: Then can the Minister tell us to what end these negotiations are taking place right now? Mr. Gllleshammer : As the Member is probably well aware, the federal Government is concerned about a number of its expenditures, one of them being CAP. I believe they have initiated the discussions on CAP at this time and I believe have the initiative where they are going to reduce the CAP funding in three of the provinces, or they are negotiating that. Mr.

Alcock: Yes, just for purposes of clarification here, the Canada Assistance Plan provides at the cur re nt time in the Pr ovince of Man itoba dollar-for- dollar funding of certain programs, so that when you are undertaking a certain program if the province spends a dollar the federal Government will spend a dollar. Not all things are shareable under the Canada Assistance Plan but the majority of core services are. Of the $535 million that this department is spending this year, what is the global term for CAP recoveries against that budget item? Mr.

Gllleshamm er: lt is slightly less than half of that budget, in the neigbourhood of some 48 percent. Mr. Alcock: Roughly $260 million? I am not pinning you down to a particular number. Mr. Gllleshammer : Probably around $220 million. Mr. Alcock: I do not mean to scramble to get the figure now. We can get the exact figure on Monday. I will probably have it by then myself. There is a really interesting issue that is emerging here and one that I think is certainly of great concern to those people who examine social policy, and I expect it must be of vital concern to this department.

The federal Gov ernment many years ago moved to change health and post-secondary education funding from a similar 50 percent cost-shared basis to a block-grant basis that resulted in some very significant decreases in the overall level of support to services and to a situation where in health care this province will end up by the year 2000 with no federal cash going into the provision of health care services, which I think is quite an astou nding situation to be in. Rece ntly, in the last budget, the federal Government made a move to cap two things-we ll,

November 16 , 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1369 they ran up against a cap on equalization, so now equalization payments are not escalating in the way in whic h they used to res pond to econo mic conditions in the cou ntry. They also placed a cap on I think it was-the Minister can correct me-a 5 percent cap on Canada Assistance Plan payments to the three what would be determined as "have" provinces, Ontario, Alberta and British Columbia, but "have not" provinces such as Manitoba, Quebec and others were still allowed to recover fully 50 percent of approved programs.

Is there anything taking place in these negotiations that would suggest that the federal Government is preparing to change the sharing agreements? Mr. Gllleshammer: There is a concern that they are trying to cap the CAP expenditures in those three provinces and again the Member is well aware that the fede ral Gove rnment is concerned about expenditures. We would be concerned if there was any further escalation of that. Mr. Alcock: Has there been any discussion of this issue among provinces in preparation for these discussions with the federal Government? Mr.

Gllleshammer : Yes, there has been at the officials level a discussion of the relationship with the federal Government. Dep uty Ministers will be meeting some time in December, and I am sure that will be on the agenda. Mr. Alcock: Have there been any working papers prepared or impact studies, or is there any sense of what some of the options are we may be faced with? Mr. Gllleshammer: Yes, there has been some analysis done. They are in the working pape r stage. There is not any final document on it at this time. Mr.

Alcock: lt is an interesting problem. l have some sympathy for the Government as it tries to deal with the impact of federal decisions on wh at are provincially administered programs, but we have seen succes sively on the part of the federal Government in succes sive budgets, cutting back on social forms of spending. I am wondering, is there any sense on the part of the department that we might see a change in policy relative to these programs, with some further limiting of expenditure under these programs in the coming federal budget. Mr. Gllleshammer: We are, obviously, concerned about that.

As you pointed out, a good portion of our provincial budget in this department comes from the federal Government, but we are not privy to any decisions that they have made. We are conce rned with a number of the initia tives the feder al Government has taken. We certainly hope that there is no reduction of funding in this area, becaus e it would impact tremendously on this province. Mr. Alcock: I am sure the Minister is concerned. I hope and would certainly be prepared to be as helpful as we could be in making that case because it would have a devastating impact on services across this country.

Ju st a final comment then, becaus e I do note that the Depu ty Chairperson is looking at the clock, and the time is drawing near. -(i nterjection)- I am prepared to go to five. I was told four. I am just warming up, Jimmy. I can go all night. The final question would be related to another area that has bee n of sign ificant nego tiation between the province and the federal Government in the past, the one of the tripartite agreements. I know the Member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) asked some questions about that earlier, and I know that there have been negotiations ongoing, but I also am aware that the federal Government has refused to move, on at least, in the recent past, renegotiating new agreements and I think have been offloading some of their legitimate expe nses in the suppo rt of these agencies onto the provincial Treasury. I wonder if the Minister would like to close with a comment on that. Mr. Gllleshammer: We are anxious to continue with the tripartite negotiations and are concerned with any offloading by the federal Government. Mr.

Deputy Chairman : In accordance with the agreement of the House today, the time being 4 p.m ., committee rise. SUP PLY-CULTU RE, HERIT AGE AND RECREATION Madam Chairman (Loulse Dacquay): Would the Committee of Supply come to order, please. This

section of the Committee of Supply has been dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. We are on item 1. Administration and Finance , (

b) Execu tive Supp ort: (1 ) Salaries, page 33. By agreement, it is my un derstanding that the critic from the official Oppos ition, the Honour able Member forWolseley (Ms. Friesen), has been given leave to make introductory remarks. Ms. Jean Frlesen (Wolseley): Thank you very

1370 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA November 16, 1990 much, Madam Chairperson, and thank you for the oppo rtunity to make these remarks. I was not here last night for the multicultural part of the portfolio which we have assigned to a different critic. I am going to be dealing with Culture, Heritage and Recreation.

I wanted to emphasize first of all that Culture, Heritage and Recreation is a department which is significant to every Manitoban wherever they live, whether they live on a reserve community, whether they are in northern Native communities outside of reserves, whether they are in the core area of Winnipeg or whether they are in the small towns of Manitoba.

The department helps us preserve our collective memory and our collective conscie nce. lt offers us through its granting programs, through its peer evaluations, the goal of excellence in performance, in arts and in cultural presentations. lt helps us find our com munal voice . lt foste rs cre ativity both individually and collectively, and it helps us expres s who we are. lt is in fact the department which both helps to shape our identity by its selection of programs and its allocation of resour ces , and through its communication programs also reflects back to us who we are. 1t is a department, I think, where one would expect to find innovation and creativity to reign.

I would like to note, first of all, that many of the programs that the department is following were those that were introduced by the NDP over the previous 1 0 or 15 years. I am glad to see that The Heritage Act is in operation and that it has been extended in some areas to municipalities. I was pleased to see the expansion of the Community Arts Programs and particularly the granting programs and Community Places Programs.

I think the grants and support to the variety of arts festivals in Manitoba, particularly the folk festival and the children's festival which were begun under earlier Governments, are also very laudable, and I am glad to see that they are still with us. The Prix Manitoba, again another innovation of the NDP Government, is something which I think recognizes not only performers, but recognizes the educators, the volunteers and the many individual Manitobans across the province who contribute to presentations of culture, heritage and the arts.

The ERD A agreement I think the Minister has spoken of many times and recognized the social and economic impact that it has had on the province, and I am glad to see that there is some commitment to retaining that, but obviously its loss is going to be felt very severely in parts of our cultural life. The aid to publications, in particular I think to writers and the, literary scholars of Manitoba, has been very important and very useful , and we are going to miss some of those programs.

Over the last 20 years, I think there has been gener al com muni ty su ppor t for state cultural activities, which is what we are talking about, for aid to facilities and to the dissemination of cultural opportunities, particularly outside Winnipeg and particularly in the North. I am glad to see that many of these progr ams have been enhanced, some of them expanded, and in the area of recreation, new ones initiated.

I think all Manitobans appreciate that expansion of those earlier NDP programs, and I look forward to examining some of them in detail and to learning more about them in my first examination of Estimates. Obviously I have some regrets. I would be remiss in my job as a critic if I did not, and I think my overall regret is that I see a department which is standing still, marking time. I do not see very many new programs; I see very little innovation.

Even in times of economic crisis, which I think we are entering, I think one can still expect in departments, particularly of cul ture and heritage, to find those kinds of innovations and new ways to use declining funds.

I think the department may have fallen into the trap which often happens to departments which have extensive grants progr ams, of becom ing responsive, that is, of responding only to those programs which are put before it rather than maintaining in all areas-leader ship, leadership in in nova tion, lea ders hip in new idea s and in expansion of old ones. * (1 310 ) There are other areas, obviously, where I think we would have philosophical disagreements with the Government.

I do see in the DeFehr report and in other initiatives in the department a tendency, well more than a tendency, an intention to rely much more on private sponsorship of cu ltural and heritage activiti es. This is very consis tent with federal Gov ernmen t progr ams, particularly the Bovey report, and with a general overall market philosophy of Conservative Governments around the world. There is a clear philosophical distinction here I

November 16, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 13 71 think. I do not think our party would be opposed to private support. lt is where you put the emphasis, and I think we see the danger in leading particularly arts and culture and heritage into an area where the marketplace philosophy will rule. I do think that it will affect the selection of plays, of music, of what we are in the end permitted to see, so it is a dangerous tendency I think. Although one would not reject private funding out of hand, one has to be very carefu l about the guidelin es and the gener al philosophy that the department has.

I noticed in my budget speech that the so-ca lled "hard dollars" to the department have declined, and I am su re the Mi nis ter has reg rets an d disappointments in this as well. I do notice the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-26b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 26b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4cf6bd914dd8c9f8285d791c610cfb2eefea534b

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