Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 61 (28th Legislature, 1st Session)

28-1-61

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Monday, March 6th, 1967 MR. CHAffiMAN: (c)--passed ..... . 1425 MR. BEN HANUSCHAK (Burrows): Mr. Chairman, with reference to Item No. 94 (c), I have one question I would like to put to the Honourable Minister. I'm told that in Ontario.there are grants provided for recreational programs on Indian reserves.

Is there a similar provi sion in Manitoba; or is the Minister familiar with what is being done in Ontario, if my infor.,. mation is correct; and if it is correct is it done in Manitoba or if it is not could the Honourable Minister explain what the situation is with respect to Indian reserves and recreational pro grams on the reserves? MR. LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I have no knowledge of any particular Indian bands taking_ advantage of this program, but so far as I am aware it's open to any community to take ad vantage of the Leadership Training Courses that are offered subject always to the special conditions that would apply to the Federal jurisdiction in Indian reserves and so on. I'm told by my colleague, the Minister of Welfare, that The Pas Indian band at Big Eddy - I presume - the Big Eddy Reserve did take advantage of the program.

I think the main point is that it is open for those who wish to take advantage of it. -- (Interjection) --' As far as I am aware, it is available. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, under the same item, there's approximately a 40 percent increase in this figure. Has the Minister made a report on just where the expansion is taking place? MR. LYON: There's an overall increase in this branch of $62,000 roughly. There are two additional staff being added for $8, 178 under the salary item.

There's $14,000 additional being added under equipment and supplies, and an additional $39,000 for a full-time recre ational director and grant under the grants formula. I will have additional detail if any further detail is needed. MR. CAMPBELL: Actually it was the grant figure that I was speaking of, approximately a 40 percent increase, and I wouldn't ask the Minister to go over the former grants, but what does the increase consist of - is it larger grants to the ones that were already receiving as sistance or is it new projects being taken on? MR.

LYON: Grants to municipalities in this year's estimates are up $2; 000 over last year; grants to full-time recreation directors last year were - that's your large area of in crease - were in the area of $8, 000. This year they're anticipated to be $37, 000. Grants to provincial organizations - last year we voted $8, 500; this year we're asking for $18, 000; and grants for assistance to resource leaders, that item is approximately the same, it's.up about $800.00. -- (Interjection) -- The main item is the increase up to $2,000 for recreational directors from $500.00. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 94 passed .. MR.

CAMPBELL: With regard to 94, Mr. Chairman --I'm sorry, I thought you were on 95. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 95. 5. Buildings and Projects. MR. CAMPBELL: Is the Minister going to give us a report on what is plarined for this year? MR. LYON: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'll be happy to do that. I think I'm coming to it. In the Whiteshell Provincial Park, there will be additions to the Opapiska campground, that's a barrier on the Winnipeg River seven miles east of Otter Falls; to be .further completion of facilities at the Al. ...

Goose Sanctuary; Big Whiteshell campground - we're completing the day use parking lot, fully modern toilet buildings in the campground extension and converting shelter building to kitchenettes. I don't know how much detail my honourable friend would like, but I've got it here. Per haps I can just hit the high· points in the Whites hell for him. Additions in Falcon townsite to the campground there, to the West Hawk campground, riprapping a piece of shoreline and removing some sewer connections. We're relocating some electrified lots in the Caddy Lake campground.

There will be - the Whiteshell Park generally, an item of some $32,900 for erosion control on the Winnipeg River at Cariboo Creek to Eleanor Lake; completion of Brereton Lake roads one mile; Moose Lake provincial recreational area, we're putting in electrical services to insulations to the park buildings and street lighting in there - that's been a question for some time, I'm sure my honourable friend from Emerson is happy to

1426 March 6, 1967 (MR. LYON cont'd.) • • . . . know that power has finally gone in there. Grand Beach - con struction of the campground service building. In addition to that, at Birds Hill Park there will be four picnic shelters, buildings, a visitor centre, four campground comfort stations. Norquay Beach is getting more electrical service for trailer lots. St. Ambrose provincial recreation area is getting an interior access road and drainage. There's an item for the Stephenfield reservoir development. Watchorn provincial recreational area - improving the bathing facilities.

Nasa provincial recreational area is getting some change house improve ments. Patricia beach is getting some flood damage repair and some road and parking wash oats repaired. These are all by the way in the Grand Beach provincial park. We're complet ing the existing

section of the camping area, an east beach shelter and change building is going up there, there's more landscaping going in.

Getting on to Birds Hill where your large items occur - completing the road paving contract now in progress in the core area; there's going to be group use nature centre area roads, grading and paving preparation; completing the service building construction; a portable concession building; group area construction such as toilets and shelter buildings throughout the park; construction of a nature centre and miscellaneous trails and landscaping, a group use area, landscaping, municipal services, campground development and landscaping, elec tricity and telephone services, a sports area development, signing. St.

Malo provincial recreational area - storage building, completing additional two -camping bays, installing 40 fireplace grills. Spruce Woods Provincial Park, we're continuing the development of the core area, the access roads, utility, sanitary facilities, beach and ground improvements. Turtle Mountain Provincial Park, continuing development of camping and picnic sites at Adam Lake. Asessippi - initial development of the beach and boating fa- cilities at that new provincial park. A new camping and beach site at Oak Lake. Grand Valley - road access improvements and a trailer dump station.

The Rivers provincial recreational area - for the benefit of the Honourable Member from Hamiota - in this vote it's getting some money for further improvements. Margaret Bruce provincial recreational area which my honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition is interested in - extending the camping grounds, camping area roads and im proving the parking area, putting in a boat launching ramp and a small dock and landscaping and some tree planting. This is the bread and butter type of thing that goes on with these developments throughout the area. Pelican Lake is getting part of this vote as well.

In the northern region, improvements in the Duck Mountain Provincial Park - Wellman Lake campgrounds, where we had a bad wind storm last year which caused a lot of trouble. Blue Lake, Childs Lake, road work -- gravelling and grading interior roads at White Fish, Wellman, Childs Lake, Overflowing River. Rainbow Beach provincial recreational area is getting some beach improvements. Paint Lake is getting some sand beaches and completing of parking lot back fill. Sasagiu Rapids picnic site is getting some improvements.

Gillam, where we have a large population now going in because of the Nelson River Development - en larging the beach and providing 12 picnic tables and fireplaces and so on - to make the begin ning of a start of a recreational area there. Churchill is going to get a picnic shelter building and picnic tables in a recreational area that's being developed there. Further money for Clearwater Provincial Park, Campers Cove and Pioneer Bay in the same area. The Grass River Provincial Park at Reid Lake, some work going on a boat storage lagoon. At First Cranberry Lake a boat lagoon.

Bakers Narrows, completing the sewage and water systems, electrification and ground improvements. Wekusko Falls, water system and improvement of trails, beach and facilities. Grace Lake, a new public facility warehouse going in there. Lynn Lake, improvements to the beach and picnic areas. North Arm and Lake Athapapuskow are getting small improvements for access roads to summer home subdivisions. Those in general cover the main capital items in our estimates. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, with regard to the program in the Birds Hill Park, does the program call for all of the main roads to be hard surfaced? MR.

LYON: The perimeter road so far as I am aware is to be hard surfaced, that is the outer perimeter. I can't honestly answer accurately as to whether all of the roads would be hard surfaced. In time that might be the case, certainly not for use this summer because it's a large road building program within that park. MR. CAMPBELL: Would the Minister, Mr. Chairman, be able to tell me roughly how many miles there would be in the perimeter highway or road?

March 6, 1967 1427 MR. LYON: There's at least 12 miles in one of the perimeter - in the main perimeter road within the park area. MR. CAMPBELL: I suppose it would be a black top, would it? MR. LYON: I'm presuming that that will be black top, yes; the sub-surface of it. MR. PETURSSON: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minister made mention of Patricia Beach, which is one of the beaches towards the east side of the lake - it's regarded as being salvageable. It was completely closed down all last summer and wasn't being used and is dependent on the lake level.

If the lake levels were to be later on maintained at 715 feet above sea level, a strong north wind could again, as it has done before, increase that level by about six feet which would again wash out that beach unless some major fill is put in there. If I may ask, what manner of work is proposed this coming summer and does the Honourable Minister know at what level the lake now stands? Has he any record of that? MR.

LYON: I am not sure of what the freeze-up level was on the lake, somewhere in around 8. 15 or 8.14 - I'm not sure of the exact figure - and in any case, it's the wind setup that we're concerned with there. There was considerable trouble experienced at Patricia Beach this past summer and the main vote for that item is for the repair of flood damage, road and parking washouts and water damage to buildings and to surfaces - that is about the extent of the vote that we have for there this year.

We are most hopeful of course that condi tions will ameliorate to the point where Patricia Beach can be utilized again because it is an extremely popular beach on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, very popular with many thousands of tourists who use it quite extensively. MR. PETURSSON: Another question, Mr. Chairman.

In comment about Patricia Beach I know that it is an extremely popular beach because it has very white and very fine sand and people are drawn to it, but if the lake levels remain, a course over which the government at the present time doesn't have any control, remain where they were say last summer, then that Patricia Beach will be continually washed out every time there is a strong north wind. This is probably not the proper time or place to ask at what level it is proposed to maintain the lake levels whenever the control dam is set up at Warrens Landing. MR.

LYON: Water Conservation may be able to be more helpful than I on that point. I understand there was some comment in the Public Utilities Natural Resources Committee by Hydro on the matter as well. MR. SAUL MILLER (Seven Oaks): The list we have read or we've heard of the various projects across Manitoba is very extensive, nonetheless I see there is a drop of about half a million dollars compared to last year and I am wondering that once again there has been no mention at all of Winnipeg Beach. This is one of the oldest beaches serving Greater Winnipeg.

It is a beach that over the years has served a great part of the population. I think it is the most accessible beach. It is 40 minutes from Winnipeg.

It is a beach that for reasons of nature has now become pretty useless and although I recognize there are problems with regard to privately owned land and so on and so forth, nonetheless it seems to me the government could do something in regard to building a breakwater so that although they can't effect or can't change the high level, or the level of the water itself, nonetheless the breakwater might protect the beach, whatever there is of it, from the constant movement of gravel and muck that is coming in on the beach.

If that was done I think it would do a great deal towards im proving the entire Winnipeg Beach strip and once again make it habitable. As I say, this is an area that attracts thousands of people. It's the most readily accessible to the residents of Winnipeg and I would like to hear from the Minister whether there is any thought at all on the part of his government of undertaking this necessary work. MR. LYON: First of all on the item, Mr. Chairman, as to the vote being down, there is a capital carry over from last year's estimates for land acquisition which is available to the department.

No. 2: with respect to Winnipeg Beach the Land Acquisition Branch of the government is in the process of completing negotiations, if indeed they haven't already been completed, for the acquisition of 32 acres of land at the Winnipeg Beach site, right on the waterfront at the present time. We are looking forward to some development of that. MR. MILLER: ....• refer to Stevenson's Point. Would that be the area? MR. LYON: No this is right in the heart of Winnipeg Beach itself, Beach Enterprises property. MR. EDWARD L DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentioned the development of Lake Adam.

Most of this work has been done by a corps from Brandon Jail, and I'm interested in clarification - is their cost of work being charged to the Department of

1428 March 6, 1967 (MR. OOW cont'd.) ••• �. Tourism and Recreation as part of the penal reform program? MR. LYON: My recollection is that the pay that is received by the trainees who come out from Brandon Jail, the pay bill is footed by the Parks Branch of this department. The rest of the supplies and so on incidental to the operation of the trainees is supplied by the Department of the Attorney-General. I'm not sure of the exaet breakdown but it's between the two departments. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, some years ago the government made announcements regarding a "wilderness park" in Manitoba.

The location seemed to shift around from time to time. It was at times to be on the east shore of Lake Winnipeg then it appeared in the area north of Lynn Lake and now it seems to have disappeared altogether. I don't see any state ment by the Minister as to any further development of the wilderness park and I'd like to hear from him whether this project has been abandonned after its great introduction.

Secondly, I have a request for information -I think it's address for papers at the moment - regarding a second national park in Manitoba and I wonder if the Minister could give us some idea at this time as to what exactly is proposed. I think there were a number of loca tions. I know there is a good deal of interest in the northern part of the province for ,some thing in the vicinity of either Clearwater Lake or Grass Lake or generally in that area and then I believe some consideration again of the east shore of Lake Winnipeg.

So it seems that maybe this has taken over for the wilderness park that my honourable friends were proposing, but whichever it is I would like to know from the Minister: are we moving on a wilderness park, national park, or what is it that we're doing? MR. LYON: The fortunate thing about a wilderness park is that it doesn't require too much development, we take it as God gave it to us. That's the intrinsic beauty of that kind of a park, that you leave it largely undeveloped and in its natural state with a jump off point of course to get into it for new routes or whatever.

With respect to the national park in the Order for Return, just a quick recollection of that looking at the discussions that have been taking place by correspondence - on which I be lieve my honourable friend asked for an Order for Return - there are two matters that are currently under negotiation in that regard and a caveat was attached of course to the acceptance of the Order with respect to matters not being produced that are still under negotiation.

I can tell my honourable friend however, because it's no great secret, that there are two main areas that are being looked at in Manitoba by the National Parks Branch of the Department of Northern Affairs.

One is on the east side of Lake Winnipeg, roughly in the same general area as the wilderness park -- which I think was discussed more in the editorial columns of the Free Press than it ever has been discussed in this House, but in any case it's not a bad idea, and as I understand it the Federal Government's interest in a second national park would be in a wilderness type of park presenting a large expanse of the natural topography.

The other area that has been investigated is, as my honourable friend has mentioned, the area in the Cranberry Portage area where I must say there are considerable problems with respect to land and the utilization of land for mineral exploration and so on and I think this was mentioned last year in the course of discussion of this same Subject.

The, Federal Government up to the present time, according to the best of my recollection, has a require-" ment that if a national park is founded or established in a province that the title to the land within that national park is transferred to the Federal Government and that the land then comes under the regulations of the National Park Branch which prohibit any staking; any prospecting, any mining development within that area.

So one can immediately see that there are land tenure problems in connection I must say with both sites that will have to be ironed out and ironed out carefully as between the two governments especially where the need or the sug gestion is that a national park at whatever site be established within the precambrian area which may be subject to staking and other kinds of mining development.

So about all I can say at this point, because negotiations are still going on, is that the matter is not dead by any means but ultimately when the decision is made - and I stress this point - that the decision is made essentially by the National Parks Branch. We recommend sites for them to take a look at in accordance with the terms of reference that they lay down about what they want for a national park. The ultim.ate decision so far as I understand the procedure though is that -- the final decision is made in Ottawa as to the actual location.

Once they have made that de cision as to location then we have to start running through the gammit of land tenure and all of these other involved problems - which my honourable friend will appreciate; a8 I judge from the knowing smile on his face - are not easy of resolution. So we're in the midst of that right

March 6, 1967 1429 (MR. LYON cont'd. ) . . . . . now and I would hope that perhaps by next year we could report progress. It's under active consideration however. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, the other day the Honourable Minister was talking about the many facilities that will be developed at Birds Hill Park. I wonder if he can tell us what facilities will be ready for this coming season? MR. LYON: I gave that answer approximately a week or so ago in estimates and I could recapitulate.

The main perimeter road will be finished, there will be a couple of hundred, I believe - and I'm going now from memory, I would suggest that my honourable friend check Hansard - a couple of hundred of the camping sites that will be open; the lake we expect to be open on the fifteenth of July, all of these will be open on or about the fifteenth of July. The facilities necessary to support the Pan-American Games events, particularly the equestrian events that are being held in Birds Hill Park will be ready for the Pan-Am Games.

There's parking to be ready this year for I think something in excess of a thousand vehicles. These are the general highlights but I would refer my honourable friend to Hansard where. I went over this in detail and mentioned what would be ready. We're looking .forward to the opening primarily though of the core area of the park this year and he will recall from the estimates of previous years that this is a three stage development. This is the first stage, the second stage will be '70 or '7 1, the third stage about 1975. MR. MOLGAT: I was just going to thank the Minister for his reply, Mr.

Chairman. l think it's the same ones I got last year and the year before in reply to the same question. I gather then that probably insofar as the northern area, that is the Cranberry Portage and so on, our arrangement with Monaco or Churchill Forest Industries would preclude any national park in that vicinity. Would that be correct? MR. LYON: That's specifically exempted in the contract with Churchill Forest Products that this does not inhibit the development of parks.

My honourable friend will quickly recog nize that we already have two provincial parks in the area under consideration which remain as provincial parks. MR. MOLGAT: I was really thinking though in terms of a national park. The regula:... tions for national parks would prevent any national park in that area now. Is that correct.? MR. LYON: Not that I'm aware of, Mr. Chairman, no. There's a specific exemption in the agreement with Churchill Forest Products on parks. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister what has been done to re solve the problem at the Rock Lake Resort in southwest Manitoba.

As he will recall, before the last provincial election an advisory committee was set up to, stave off the problem until after the election. Is there anything in the estimates this year to upgrade this resort or re- solve the problem of water level, etc. ? . MR. LYON: That advisory committee, perhaps contrary to my honourable friend's im plication, was established to look at the problem, not with any particular regard to the time of year that it occurred.

The committee was established by my former colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, whose responsibilities now devolve on the Minister of Water Control a.p.d Conservation.

I must frankly admit I'm not aware of the reports that have been made concerning Rock Lake to the Department of Water Control and Conservation, except to say this, that the slime condition or the algae condition which is. one of the main causes of concern down there, is a persistent problem, a problem that unless you treat it on a broad scale, which is a very expensive way to treat it, with bluestone or the different treatments that are used, is one that thus far has pretty well baffled most of the resource people over larger bodies of water.

I'm not however familiar with the reports tha:t have been received from the A(}lisory Committee and perhaps my honourable friend when he's up with his estimates, may be later on tonight, can tell us what's happening. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Chairman, I understand there's going to be facilities for 300 trailers in that park. I would like to know -- this is getting back to Birds Hill - I would like to know if there is just going to be one fee to get into the park and the trailer facilities are going to be used -- you'll have free use of the trailer facility or will there be a fee?

And how will this fee compare with private trailer parks in the City of Winnipeg? MR. LYON: There will be two fees: one to get into the park and then if you want to use the campground facilities you pay a second fee. The fee

schedule is currently under review and when fee schedules are under review that usually suggests that there's going to be an up ward revision - which by the way we're being asked to provide by one or two different organ izations because our fees now are I suppose among the lowest in Canada.

1430 March 6, 196 7 MR. CHAffiMAN: Item 5 .•.. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, following on the last comment of the Minister, do I understand he's announcing then that fees for provincial parks are going to increase this year? Is this going to apply to all provincial parks? MR. LYON: No, I said the fee

schedule for campgrounds in Birds Hill and campgrounds in all provincial parks are under review, have been as a matter of fact for some time. This is for overnight camping. I'm not talking about park entrance. Overnight camping particu larly. Those fees are under review and I would think that while we have no final report on the thing as yet, no final statement has been given to me for review, that we could anticipate that there would be an upward revision in those fees, yes. MR. CHAffiMAN: Item 5--passed. MR. CAMPBELL: Just before Item 5 passes, Mr.

Chairman, I was hoping we'd get to this question while the First Minist�r was here but I have no doubt that the Honourable Minister can answer it. Could the Minister tell me why it is that no salary is provided for the Minister in this Department? MR. LYON: I suppose because the Minister of this department receives only one salary and that salary is paid through the Department of the Attorney-General. MR. CAMPBELL: Would we conclude from that then that where a salary is shown that the Minister is going to get the salary that's shown? MR.

LYON: In some cases we provide salaries for Ministers of departments which are held by one Minister. Yes people who aren't there. Sometimes in anticipation I suppose as my honourable friend did that perhaps there might be new additions to the Cabinet from time to time, b:.1t in this case I deferred to the judgment of my colleague, the Provincial Treasurer and no salary was shown. MR. CAMPBELL: Yes, I understand that, but on the other hand in the case of the honourable gentleman's own two portfolios the two salaries are shown.

And in the case of my friend the Honourable the Provincial Secretary, Public Works, Public Utilities, three salaries are shown. Now is my honourable friend --not that I begrudge it to him --but is my honourable friend, the Minister of Public Utilities, going to get three salaries and my poor friend, the Honourable the Minister of Tourism going to have to be content with just one? Surely there should be some uniformity, Mr. Chairman. MR. LYON: The only thing that's uniform is the amount of money that each Cabinet Minister gets. It's uniform right across the board. MR.

CAMPBELL: I suppose I should leave this until the Honourable the First Minister is in but since my honourable friend who is the Minister of this department leads the House anyway, perhaps it would be quite realistic to continue the discussion. Then the assumption would be that every place where a ministerial salary is shown that that will be filled during the course of these estimates? MR. LYON: No ...• ... MR. CAMPBELL: Well then what is the program, Mr. Chairman? M:g, LYON: Insofar as I am aware, it's the same as in the past. In some departments it's shown, in other departments no salary is provided.

In any case the end result is exactly the same --(Interjection) --and ever will be. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 95 passed. I wonder if I'm correct now in calling Reso lution 11 4 -Commissioner of Northern Affairs? MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, that shows in the estimates of the Department of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs, Item No. 11 vote 114 on page 25 of the estimates. Per haps I could give a few- a very few preliminary remarks on this because it's a $200,000 item that is new to the House.

I could give a brief rundown of the functions of the department or of the branch and what we hope to attain in terms of the office of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. By reference to the statute, Mr. Chairman, honourable members will realize that the purpose of the Northern Affairs is to co-ordinate the activities of departments of government of the province and agencies of the Crown where possible for the purpose of encouraging the development of Northern Manitoba.

We have as well the responsibility of assisting local com munities in Northern Manitoba in their efforts in planning and organizing and developing and carrying out administering and financing programs to provide local services for the amenity of the inhabitants. We have in the department a Director of Northern Affairs and under him four co-ordinators. The co-ordinators make regular, frequent visits to the various communities

March 6, 1967 1431 (MR. LYON cont'd.) ..... to meet with established local committees to encourage and super vise local projects and plans. It's difficult in many cases to ascertain the cost of each of these as several projects are worked on at a time during their visits. For example, a pro ject for clearing of a waste disposal area or a new deck being built on a dock or a drain being excavated or discussion on health facilities and co-ordination of the construction of new schools.

These are the types of programs that are looked after by Northern Affairs where we try to as much as possible overcome the disadvantage of distance that have afflicted these communities in many years dealing directly with Winnipeg and through the establishment of the Director's office in Thompson and one of the co-ordinators in Thompson and then a co-ordinator stationed as well in The Pas and in Lac du Bonnet and one other centre which I can mention later, this work is carried out. The co- ordinators undertake regular visits into the more isolated communities of the north.

They meet with established community committees. They give supervision of projects and promotion of programs in these areas. They provide where necessary for assessment or levying of taxes and imposition of fees in lieu of taxes. They co-ordinate as much as possible government services especially where more than one department or agency is involved. They organize, carry out, supervise and finance and provide initiative for winter works incentive programs through local committees.

There are various small road projects that take place under their guidance with the co-operation of the Minister of Highways in unorganized territory. They work with and for locaL government administrators to improve local programs. They work with the Frontier School Division co-ordinating projects such as weLLs and roads and rinks and drainage matters and footbridges and building sites ..

These are many of the very small services that are provided in most of settLed Manitoba by municipal government, and of course when you get into the isolated parts of Northern Manitoba there is no municipal govern ment and the residents there have a tendency to look to government in the all- embracing sense of that word.

They don't much care whether it's federal or provincial or what but they have certain problems that have to be met and it is one of the aims - although certainly not a fully realized aim as yet - of the Northern Affairs Commissioner's office to try to fill this vacuum of lack of local government and to provide for these kinds of small public works that are re quired within these areas as much as they are required within the settled areas of Manitoba.

We work with the Department of Trans.port federally and local community committees for construction of small local air strips; work with the Grand Rapids Forebay Committee on Moose Lake and the William Lake areas; work with the Manitoba Development Authority on general programs for Northern Manitoba. We're in close harmony with the Indian Affairs Branch on all of their projects and programs and some we cost-share with them. We have de veLoping and a continuing liaison with the Community Development Service which is operated under the aegis of the Department of Welfare.

We receive inquiries and complaints and make sure that these are channeled off to the proper authorities and try to attend to follow-ups on these complaints as much as possible. Now I know that all of this may sound rather picayune and rather small and rather un impressive but I cite the example of trips that I have taken myself through many of these isolated communities in Northern Manitoba of not complaints so much but entreaties that we have received that this department is now established to try to meet.

I remember being in a community on the Hudson Bay line approximately a year ago where there is no RCMP, there is no settled Local government, they have a local committee that was set up to try to give some organization to the area in terms of recreation building and so on. But they have a real prob lem with wild dogs running at large. Pm not here speaking of Churchill. This is another area on the Bay line where they really didn't know where to turn.

They talked to the RCMP about it but the RCMP come in once every two or three weeks or as occasion demands; they have no local by-l aw on which to work as you or I would have in our own settled communities here and they feel a sense of helpLessness. They know that it's against the law to go out and shoot the dogs indiscriminately; they don't want to do this and so they look to government, any arm of government, federal or provincial, to try to give them advice and counsel as to how they can meet this local problem.

Well we are able through Northern Affairs to go in, work with a local committee which is established in the area and try to provide some sembance of municipal arrangement in these towns, or in these communities, which can meet with such day to day problems. A problem of garbage collection which to most of us down here means nothing but to a person in an isolated community means a great deal because there is no one to turn to to do it; there's no tax base on which to support a garbage collector. So the framework has to be.

1432 March 6, 1967 (MR. LYON cont'd.) .•.•. established whereby these local services can be provided on a continuing basis and on a satisfactory basis for the community'. Health problems: problems with respect to teachers sent out by the Department of Edu cation, living in teacherages, having problems with repairs and some of the facilities that they have and so on. They now have a touchstone in the Department of Northern Affairs. If your electric stove breaks down in the City of Winnipeg you have no problem, you phone up a repairman.

If your electric stove breaks down in Brochet you've got a real' problem because there isn't a repairman and while departments of government have a myriad of services and servicemen in the north, very often it's difficult under a non co-ordinated arrangement to focus this kind of particular help into a particular community and so Northern Affairs if they see a small problem such as a breakdown in a facility in a community, can talk to Public Works, they can talk to the repair people from the Department of Education or can talk to highways and say well now there's a particular problem there, we 'know it•s not necessarily your jurisdictional problem, but we want a man to get in there and to'do what has to be done and we'll look after the small amount usually that's required in order to insure that the serv ice is put on a working basis again.

Now as I say these are small picayune items to us but to the person who is deprived of the service or who is lacking the footbridge over the creek that runs through the community because it's been washed out and they have no local committee to build this up for them and no money or funds to work from, this can become a very great problem, We were into one community this summer where this precise case had occurred, there'd been a torrential rain a few nights before and the rain had washed away a very rustic man-made little footbridge over the creek. Well they didn't know where to turn.

Now with Northern Affairs they can get in touch with the director or the co-ordinator who goes in on a regular basis, point out the problem --he has a small fund out of which he can provide these things, if in fact the money is not provided through the Department of Highways or one of the other departments of govern ment, or he can arrange if it's a more settled community for a tax base if this is necessary to give support to local ventures and try to give them some of the same amenities that you and I take for granted in the southern and the settled areas of Manitoba.

They have under way this year ari extensive winter works program throughout northern' Manitoba which is being serviced by the staff officers of the Northern Affairs Branch aild there are many other items which I� sure my colleague the Member from,Churchill or the Mem ber from Rupertsland could tell yoti about from their long experience as members in the north trying to meet some of the ordinary everyday problems that come to light in these com munities.

It's an attempt to make government not only meaningful to these northern areas of Manitoba but it's' an attempt to make government a functioning agent in theSe communities - which has not always been the case before either in the time of this government or in the time of its predecessor's, and s6 here we are with this new department with a comparatively modest vote most of which is for salaries and for travel expenses, a small amount for construction and other items like that, attempting to carry out this service. For my

part I don't think that we have done much more this past six months than merely scratch the surface of the need that is required that has to be met in many of the northern communities but I think we are off to a good start. I take this opportunity to pay public tribute to the Director of Northern Affairs and to his co-ordinators for the work that they have been doing and for the initiative .that they have taken in moving into this field which heretofore was not occupied and trying to provide the kinds of services in these communities and co-ordination and contact with government that just did not exist before.

It will take time to prove the value of this commissioner's office to the overall scheme of government in Manitoba but I do believe that it is off to a reasonable start. MR. DOW: I wish to thank the Minister for his comments on this new department and congratulate him and the government on the fact that they are moving into this field. There is two or three things come to my mind and if I might be able to offer some suggestions in regard to this new department is a matter of how closely will the Province of Manitoba be working with the Federal Government in regards to their Department of Northern Affairs.

Is there some type of co-operation -co-ordination between these two departments in regards to fulfilling the program and the desire that they're looking for? The other factor that concerns me somewhat, if we go into these areas are we setting up our planning stage on the basis of rehabilitation in regards to city or town life or are we trying to rehabilitate these people and make them self-supporting and in standards of living

March 6, 1967 1433 (MR. DOW cont'd.) . . • . . along their own lines? These questions come to my mind that we have to take a good look at in regards to the affairs of the no.rthern part oLthe province and the people living in th�m.

There's the fact of setting up these communities, whether we're going to do it. on a basis of the people themselves are going to pay for the full improvements as we move along or is the province in co-operation with the federal, are they going to take some type of subsidies that will assist these people to set up their developments to give them the standards of living that we think they should have and which I think they would like to have. These are some questions that come to my mind.

There's the other factor that I'm wondering with the present.newDepartment of North ern Affairs in the province and the Federal Government this is an old bugbear that's gone through my mind many times, is the fact what are we. doing about Churchill in regards to the standards of living that should be given there and there. seems to be a hesitancy over the years -and here again I'm not blaming one government against the other -but any time I've been to Churchill I've been somewhat amazed at the fact that they come up with the fact that what's the matter why can't we get these standards of living into the community --and in getting it in I think we'd be doing a wonderful job to Northern Manitoba to get these people on a modern basis.

Some mention was made by the Minister about the health of these people and is there in his estimates or some consideration to some means of transportation, some type of hospi talization to these people in the northern communities, that is if we set up these various com munities, I know small as they may be, do we have something in mind we can 'give these people the medical service and the nursing service that is required? Are. we going to be dependent on possibly mission hospitals or is the department going to enter this field to give these people these standards of living?

These are some of the concerns I might suggest to the Minister that come .to my mind that I'm sure we're interested in improving the conditions of these people as partially settled· as they are, but I can see some concern with people if we go into these various small com munities and either try to impose some type of improvement from a say a municipal stand point to get these people to set themselves up as villages and so on possibly this might be a little more than they can afford or does the province have some means of whereby they can assist these people to get themselves established as communities which will fulfill the desires of Manitoba to make them real productive citizens of our province.

M�. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I cannot agree with the remarks of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain when he complimented the Minister on the introduction to this item of expenditure and I certainly cannot commend the Minister in charge of this

section of the estimates for his introduction either. I recall just a year ago, or almost a year ago, when this

section or department was first established. It was to be a

section of government that was going to answer all of the problems of the north. The then Minister of Municipal Affairs, if memory serves me correctly, was named as the Commissioner of Northern Affairs because of his very vital concern for the de velopment of the north.

I recall at that particular time I raised one or two questions in con' nection with the establishment of a commissioner of.northern affairs and I was -or at least an attempt was made to ridicule me because I raised these questions by the government, which unfortunately for Manitoba still holds sway in Manitoba -because I said at that time and the Honourable the Minister who is now the Commissioner of Northern Affairs has justified the position that I took then, that here was nothing more or less than another endeavour of our government to glamorize the north without any firm foundation, without any real program or plan to do something about the development of our northern country.

What has the Minister said tonight, Mr. Chairman, that the Commissioner of Northern Affairs in the Province of Manitoba is concerned with? He said that they performed small services. I agree with him that they may have performed some small services. He says it's an unimpressive

section of government -and I think that with the attitude of my honourable friend it is and will remain to be so. He says that he and his commissioners are concerned with the problem of wild dogs in certain com munities. They're concerned -only an example that's right -but in a moment or two, Mr. Chairman, I hope to give you some of the examples of what that government said a year ago that this department would accompl ish for Northern Manitoba.

So I say that while my honourable friend the Attorney-General just used the ques tion of wild dogs as an example of the activities of this department, he also suggested that one of the duties and responsibilities of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs was the repairing

1434 March 6, 1967 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd. ) .. .. . of electric stoves at Brochet, also a concern as to whether or not a footbridge over a creek was washed out as the result of flooding in Northern Manitoba. This, Mr. Chairman, is the report of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs to night. What did they say and what did they propose and enact last year? And I think it is on this basis we should consider the item of expenditure that we have before us. I admit, Mr.

Chairman, quite frankly, that an expenditure of $200, 000 in an overall estimate of hundreds of millions of dollars - 234 -354 - is rather insignificant; but is it really insignificant in the light of the history and the attitude of the government opposite? The other day on a resolution that was proposed in this House by the Honourable the First Minister dealing with the question of development and transportation and all other facilities in the north we were told how important the north was to Manitoba. Herein lies the future of Manitoba.

But tonight we have the Commissioner concerned with wild dogs, repairs to elec tric stoves and the replacement of a footbridge over a creek. Has the Minister in charge of this department, the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, told us tonight of how many new in dustries have been brought into the north as a result of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs --(Interjection) --it's not - oh it's not eh? My honourable friend had better read what his responsibilities are, if he says to me that it is not the responsibility of the Commissioner of No rthern Affairs. MR. LYON: Read the Act. MR.

PAULLEY: And just to inform my honourable friend ..... MR. LYON: You're on a dead end trail ... .. .. . MR. PAULLEY: I beg your pardon. MR. LYON: You're on a dead end trail. MR. PAULLEY: I'm a dead end trail! By jiminy Christmas we got a dead government in the Province of Manitoba , and if as a result of listening to the Commissioner of Northern Affairs I'm on a dead end trail he's so darn right. That is the attitude of this government in the development of northern affairs; it is a dead end trail as far as they are concerned. But last year what did we say insofar as a Commissioner of Northern Affairs?

My honourable friends opposite weren't so dead that time, because the former Minister of Municipal Affairs who we presumed was the Commissioner of Northern Affairs said that this was so vital and so necessary for Manitoba for our well-being and development. But tonight, as I repeat again wild dogs, repairs to electric stoves and replacement of footbridges over creeks. And what were some of the responsibilities of the Minister or the Commissioner of Northern Affairs just a year ago?

He has all of the rights in respect of the northern area, all of the rights, powers, privileges and duties including the power to make by-laws that a muni cipality has within its boundaries. He may assist communities in providing, maintaining, im proving local services in the. community. Without limiting the generality the Commissioner may, subject to the regulations, provide for the assessment of property, the levying of taxes, the imposition of fees in lieu of taxation. He can establish minimum mill rates in the northern area. Is not my honourable friend the Attorney-General aware of his duties?

Is he not aware of his duties , that he can under

Part 2 of

Chapter 42 of the Statutes of 1966 enter into agree ments on behalf of the Government of Manitoba on such terms as he may deem appropriate with any purpose, for the purpose of establishing and developing new townsites and encourag ing the establishment or expansion of industry in Northern Manitoba, and my honourable friend says it's not within his orbit but it belongs to the Manitoba Development Fund or Development Authority or somebody else. I say, Mr.

Chairman, the Manitoba Development Authority is not asked or has no obligation to report to this Session as to the duties of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs. It is his responsibility, and what guff did we hear from him tonight? Did our honourable friend tell us tonight of any agreements that have been entered into between industries that want to locate in the north? Has my honourable friend reported to this Legis lature that he has granted any tax. concessions to any industry desiring to locate in Northern Manitoba? He has not.

Has he reported to this Session of the Legislature or this evening what he has done to encourage industry to come to Northern Manitoba? MR. CAMPBELL: He didn't read the Act. MR. PAULLEY: Of course he didn't read the Act. I think, Mr. Chairman , that it is just another example of where the government opposite 'loves to butter up the statutes of Manitoba with programs of the heart with an eye to the electorate without any intention of carrying through what they propose here in this House. And they have done this so often that it's getting to be beyond a joke.

I want to know from my honourable friend the Commissioner

March 6, 1967 1435 (MR . PAULLEY cont'd. ) •.... of this great northern country of ours, what did he as the Commiss ioner of Northern Affairs in the Province of Manitoba do or attempt to do to prevent the es tablishment of a steel industry in Regina usi ng the raw materials that are being mined at Flin Fl on? I'll bet my honourable friend is just as unaware of that happening as he is unaware of what is contained in the statutes of Manitoba. MR. LYON: Is my honourable friend aware of the fact that the Regina stee l factory has not been est ablished? MR. PAULLEY: I beg your pardon? MR.

LYON: Are you aware of the fact that the Regina stee l factory has not been est ab- lished? MR. PAULLEY: It's in the process, according to my informants . MR. LYON: Oh, I see. MR. PAULLEY: All right. My honourable friend the Minister says to me am I aware that it has not been es tablished in Re gina. I want to ask my honourable friend then, who is charged with the responsibility of the development of the north; what is he, the Co=iss ioner of Northern Affairs, going to tell this House tonight as to what he has been doing in the endeav our to have this located in Flin Flon ? No suggestion.

Po ssibly I'm in error that my honourable friend is more concerned with wild dogs and footbridges than he is the steel industry in Flin Fl on. I sa y, Mr.

Chairman, to my honourable friend the Commissi oner of Northern Affairs in the Province of Manitoba, there is more responsibility, there is more to your job than simply a title on your door down on the first floor of this Legislative Building, and I suggest to my honourable friend that if the only thing that he can say to us when making a report to this House as to the de\'elo pment of the north is what he finished a few moments ago, then maybe it would be advisable for him to turn back to the Minister of Urban Development and Municipal Affairs the responsibility for being the Commiss ioner of Northern Affairs where it was a year ago.

So I say to my honourable friend and I say to the government: cut out the malarkey. We don't want to hear about dogs and footbridges. We want to know what you're doing with the develop ment of the north. My honourable friend the member for Churchill is wont to tell us in this House of all the plans for the north. Here, Mr. Chairman, in this little department or this little sec tion of one department we have a staff of 12 persons , which is a larger number than we have in Municipal Services or in the

section of the Municipal Department for municipal budgets and finance. Here we have been giving lip service time after time to the development of the north and my honour able friend never mentioned once one industry, one agreement between any development com pany, which he has the power to enter into agreements with in accordance with the Act, and I say to my honourable friend that while this may be on the basis of expenditures of revenue rather insignificant and rather sma ll, if we are really concerned with the development of the north, if we're really concerned as to bringing the amenities of life to the people of the north as are provided for in

Chapter 42 of the Statutes of 19 66, then surely, Mr. Chairman, we can expect more from the Commiss ioner of Northern Affairs than we received here tonight. So I want to know from my honourable friend in accordance with his responsibilities and in accord ance with the Act how many agreements for tax concessi ons have been entered into by the Com miss ioner of Northern Affairs? I want to know how many industries the Commissi oner of Northern Affairs has been able to attract into Northern Manitoba.

I want to know, in accordance with the Act establishing the Commiss ioner of Northern Affairs, how much property has been acquired as a result of his endeavours for local development. I want to know from my honour able friend, in accordance with

Chapter 42 of the Statutes of 1966 which established the Com missi oner of Northern Affairs, how many local committees have been es tablished in Northern Manitoba, and I also want to know from my honourable friend, Mr.

Cha irman, how many regu lations have been proclaimed or enacted or established for the good development of Northern Manitoba. ' In conclusion, once again I say to my honourable friend, a year ago I was severely taxed because I su ggested at this time that this was just another method of our government to give lip service to the development of the north, and particularly at that time the then Minister of Muni cipal Affairs decried what I was saying, but there was an election coming up at that time and oh what a difference, Mr.

Chairman, what a difference in a year an election has been held, and I'm convinced that if the voter of Manitoba knew what I knew then, if the voter of Manitoba knew then what I knew then, and I am saying here tonight that all that the Government of Manitoba has been giving to the development of the north is a bunch of lip service, gobbledygook andbalderdash,

1436 March 6, 196 7 (MR . PAULLEY cont'd. ) • . • . . because the Minister or the Commiss ioner' of Northern Affairs tonight established the correctness of my stand when he said that what we heed and what he does as a Commissi oner of Northern Affairs is to repair an electric stove at Brochet, look after a few wild dogs in some other community, and assist in the rebuilding of a footbridge over a creek that happened to run rampant on one occasion, What a big deal·! MR. LYON: Mr.

Ch airman, in the course of what I thought to be niy brief and temperate, and may I say altogether too modest, opening remarks with respect to the C'ommissi oner of Northern Affairs ••..• MR. PAULLEY: Now you know the Act. . . • . . continued on next page

March 6, 1967 1437 MR . LYON : ..... I obviously found a rough spot, or I should say a tender spot with my friend the Leader of the New Democratic Party, and I'm happy that he has finally risen to let us know he was very anxious to get through Tourism and Recreation. Now we know why. Mr.

Speaker, we have seen here tonight a living example of my honourable friend's painful hurt as to what occurred to him and his Party in Northern Manitoba in the election in July, when they got the worst trouncing in the constituency of Churchill that has ever been administered, to the best of my knowledge, in recent years to an opposition candidate . And I sugge st to him, Mr. Chairman, that as long as he keeps on talking the kind of nonsense that he was talking tonight that he's going to continue to get the same kind of a brutal trouncing that he got last July in that election in Northern Manitoba.

Because he doesn't understand Northern Ma.1itoba. He doesn't understand Northern Manitoba; he hasn't been around. And I'm just a country boy from Southern Manitoba myself and I don't pretend to understand all of Northern Manitoba, but I understand considerably more, Mr . Chairman, than my honourable friend the Leader of the New Damocratic Party. He 's talking about powers that we have within the Act. He 's talking about land and mill rates and so on.

I was trying to talk abO'lt people, because there are people in Northern Manitoba and they're citizens of Nor thern Manitoba the same as you and me, and they' re en titled to the services that the province can provide, the same as you and me . And let him read the Act that est ablished this branch of government and let him stand up like a wild dog in this committee --(Interjection)--a mad dog, pardon me, because that's one we obviously hadn't looked after, and tell us ••... M...i=t. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of pri vilege, is my honourable friend calling me a mad dog ? And I ask you, Mr .

Chairman, to rule as to whether or not this is parliamen tary. I would take it from my honourable friend outside of this House and I would excuse him for his ignorance, but I cannot do it inside of the House because we have a record named a Hansard, and if my honourable friend is referring to me as a mad then I respectfully suggest that it is not parliamentary, or on the other hand it is unparliamentary, a'ld I ask my honour able friend despite his pass ionate oration and endeavour to scuttle the logical arguments that I put up, if he would kindly withdraw that remark. MR . LYON: Mr.

Chairman, I am delighted to withdraw any imputation against my honourable friend that maybe in the pass ion of debate I got carried away, because it would be a most inaecurate descri ption for my honourable friend because he couldn't be a mad dog - his fangs were all drawn in July in the election up there; and in any case I think more highly of my honourable friend and I withdraw the implication. The fangs were drawn in July however. MR . PAULLEY: You'll hear about that in a minute or two. --(lnterjection)-- MR . LYON : No and he wasn't mad.

We are trying to provide services for people and I suppose it would be a good thing some time if we could take my honourable friend from Tr anscona - and sometimes when he makes speeches of this nature it would indic ate that he's never been further north than Selkirk Avenue in Winnipeg - if we could take him up into some of these communities in Northern Manitoba where I have had the good fortune to be, and I haven't been in all of them by any means but I've been into a good number of them, and let him si t down with those people and find out from those people what their concern is.

What are they concerned about in life ? They're looking for the what I desc ribe perhaps too modestly as the picayune, what you or I might describe as some of the pi cayune services, some of the commonplace ser vices that you and I take for granted. We never even think of them. Let me take him into a community where they have a bad water problem as the Minister of Welfare corre ctly points out, or where they only have one well and that well isn't too satisfactory.

And let me ask that community and let him ask the community whether they'r e interested in si gning an agreement that isn't going to do anything for them in particular, or whether they're interested in getting a new well dug and getting that well dug right away so that their children won't be troubled with gastroenteritis, or some of the other problems that face him. Let him talk to some of the Northern Affairs officers from the Department of Northern Affairs . Let him talk to some of the officers from the Indian Affairs Branch of that same department.

Let him talk to some of the Community Development officers of my colleague the Minister of Welfare, who are trying against, in some cases, almost insuperable odds to provide the kinds of amenitie s which may be all too commonplace to him but which are the warp and the woof of proper decent living in a civilized community. These are some of the things by example that I was trying to point out to the Committee tonight, as I say perhaps all too modestly, because I didn't go on to explain at any lengt.h about

1438 March 6, 1967 (MR.

LYON cont'd) .•..• the winter works pro gram that has been initiated in some areas, and ce rtainly supervised in all areas by the Northern Affairs co-o rdinators this year providing - and I hope he 'll listen to this figure -h undreds of jobs to people who would otherwise be un em ployed or perhaps on welfare, a program which is not within this vote but is within the general vote of the Departmen t of Urban Affairs where it mi ght more properly be discussed, suppose, but I'll mention it here, providing just some of these ser·ri.ces such as he mentioned, the building, the rebuilding of the bridge and the digging of the new wells and so on and so forth, the things that ne scorns in this House, but I challenge my honourable friend to go into these self-sa me communities and scorn these items in those com munitie s, because if he does they 'll ride him out of town on a plank because there are the things that they are interested in.

These are people-oriented services that they haven't had before. And this is one of the great aims of this branch of government, albeit a new branch, albeit a branch that has only been est ablished since when? August, I gue ss it was of last year, and I'm standing before you to night and I'm ready to say to anyone in this Commi ttee that we have not yet done the job that we have put our feet on the path to do . We have much to do.

I think I used the words that we are just beginning to scratch the surface of some of these services and some of the plans that have to be developed, and in consultation with the local people in these various communities made to be me aningful for them . So it's all very well to stand up here tonight and make a long harangue about the lack of progress of this department because it's only looking after municipa l services and so on. It's all very well to do that but it's not in touch with reason, I suggest, at all.

Now if my honourable friend wants to hear about development in Northern Manitoba I'll be quite happy to, without plagiarizing too much from what I'm sure the Minister of Mines and Re sources is going to be able to say, what the Minister of Industry and Commerce is going to be able to say, ' I can give him a few exam ples but I didn't touch on these beca use they do not fall within the dirert ambit of this department. Can he sit in this Committee of the House to night and tell us that there 's been no development in Northern Manitoba in the last ye ar ?

Where was he when the International Nickel Com pany announced the new Pipe Lake Mine of, what is it ? A hundred mi llion dollars? A hundred million dollars, 40 miles outsi de of Thompson. Where was he when this announcement was made ? No development, no industry in Northern Manitoba? This department can't take credit for the Pipe Lake Mine, no. But we play our role in some of the discus sions that are taking place with respect to that mine .

He will realize, of course, that where settled government is already in force that a local governm:mt such as the Local Government District of Mystery Lake, that these ma tters are still - although there will be a transfer in due course - are still handled largely through the Department of Municipal Affairs under their Local Government Dis trict Branch. Surely even that can penetrate my honourable friend's mind . He will realize that these things are taking place. Is he unaware of what is taking place at the Town of Lynn Lake ?

And this department doesn't take credit for it; � a doubling of the population of the Town of Lynn Lake because of a new nickel mine that was � announced when - a year, a year and a half ago. We can't take credit for that but it's going on; it 's happening. Toda y in Northern Manitoba -I don't know what parts of Northern Manitoba he visits - the Ch urchill Forest Products development which was mentioned here last year, certainly he 's aware that that development is taking place in Northern Manitoba, that it is going to provide job opportunities for hundreds of people where no job opportunities existed before.

Certainly he can't be unaware of these facts, and then he says, "What new industry have you brought to Northern Manitoba? " I tell him I haven't brought any particular industry yet because the bringing of industry to Northern Manitoba is the job of total government, operating through such agencies and departments as Mines and Natural Re sources, Industry and Commerce, the Manitoba Development Auth ority. Has he never heard of the Manitoba Development Authority ?

And the Commissi oner of Northern Affairs is a member of the Manitoba Development Autho rity and sits at the regular meetings of that authority that are held, where mat ters such as he men ti oned, a proposal to take waste from the Flin Flon Mine for a mooted development of a field complex in Re gina, where these matters are discussed.

Of course they'r e discussed and of course government is aware of it, but the problems of Northern Manitoba cannot be focussed dovJn into one department of government and sa y, "We ll, it's your total responsibility, " and believe me I'm not trying to slide out from under that responsibility; I welcome it. But the problems that face the people of Northern Manitoba are problems that face every department of government in Manitoba: the Minister of Educa tion; the Minister of Health and Welfare; the

March 6, 1967 1439 (MR. LYON cont'd) ..... Provincial Se cretary, with even Centennial celebra tions going on in communities that my honourable friend hasn't even heard of, let alone seen; the Minister of Mine s and Natural Resources who has a field staff in Northern Manitoba much larger than per haps any other branch of government, the Minister of Welfare who has community development officers spotted throughout Northern Manitoba, particularly in Indian and Metis community; the Minister of Highways who has highways offices in The Pas who have a responsibility for these northern communities as well.

Even the Minister of Agriculture has offices in Northern Manitoba in The Pas, and they have some responsibility for some of these areas with respect to operations where a farm can be set up, or local grains and so on, or local food stuffs can be grown to give people some idea through their ag rep program as to what can be done . And I could go on down the line; the Minister of Labour; the Minister of Urban Develop ment and Municipal Affairs.

They all have responsibility and it is a colle ctive responsibility of government, and through this department with a small vote of $200, 000 we attempt to give some form to local services and where pos sible and where no other governmental structure of a local natm;e exists, to move in and to fill the vacuum there. And if pos sible to stimulate in dustry in· an undeveloped part of Manitoba we would be del ighted to do it, but I would say that industry has been growing rather apace in Northern Manitoba and we are just not taking credit.

I can't stand before this committee and take credit as a department of government for the $100 million development at Pipe Lake. You'd laugh me out of the House and quite properly so. And yet these things are taking place. Is my honourable friend totally unaware of it ? Did he not cam;:Jaign in Churchill constituency last July and find out what the people were thinking and talking about up there. Of course he did. Now he knows all of the se things and to stand up be fore this Committee tonight and to say, "What industry did you bring here ?

What did you do there ?" is utter nonsense be cause I would have to envelop within my arms all of the responsi bilities and all of the credits that have been amassed by all of the departments of government with respect to the roles that they have played in assist ing private enterprise, in most cases, to establish the kind of industries about which he spe aks. We 're despera tely concerned in Northern Manitoba about the freight rates on the Hudson Bay Line and on the CNR running up to The Pas. Despera tely concerned about that.

Beca use herein lies one of the great inhibitions to development of Northern Manitoba. The freight rate structure has been the greatest inhibiting factor, in my humble opinion, the greatest inhibiting factor to the kind of industrial development that you and I and everyone on this committee want to see .

And of course that problem is being attacked and being attacked with all of the weapons at our command, not only through the Department of Northern Affair3 sitting as a member of MDA, but through Industry and Commerce , through our Freight Rate Council and all of the other apparatus and machinery of government that is available to bring to these particular pro blems the kind of intelligence and expertize that is needed to convince an eastern railroad or an eastern-ma naged railroad or an eastern government of what has to be done in order to im- prove the conditions in Northern Manitoba.

So, my honourable friend says, ''What have you done about these particular things ?" I say, "Listen to what my colleagues have been saying and what they will be saying and what they will be saying in the course of the debates on the estimate s that are appe aring before you today. " I was attempting to give some idea of how this $200, 000 item is being spent.

Maybe I should have made this speech ahead of time and save my honourable friend the wear and tear on his tongue and on his heart, because I' m sure that I share with him, as does every member of this government, the desire to see the greatest ultimate development take place in Northern Manitoba and we hope that the Department of Northern Affairs will be a part of that important development. But it is not good enough, Mr .

Chairman , for a re sponsible member of the House - and I regard my honourable friend as a re sponsible member of this House - to stand up here and say , "Well , this department is obviously a total failure beca use it hasn 't done anything about this, that or the other thing." The se things are bei ng done, day by day. I do n't have in front of me , regretably, the list in detail as one small example again, just like the dogs or just like the footbridge , of the Winter Works Programs that are being carried on in Northern Manitoba today.

And let my honourable friend say to any person in Northern Manitoba that the building of an airstrip, the clearing of land for an airstrip that is going to service the community that otherwise twelve weeks of the year is cut off from the rest of the civilized world because planes can't get in on either ice or water because it's melting or freezing in the fall or in the spring; let him say that that airstrip is not important, is not de s perately important to that community; let him be the father of the child that comes down with

1440 March '6 ,: 196 7 (MR . LYON cont'd) •.•• some serious disease during that period and a plane can 't get in ·unless they're lucky to get a helicopter .from Rivers Air Force Bas e to come in somehow and to lift that child out and save that child; and then let him say that the provision of an airs trip for Northern Manitoba co=unity is not an important thing. It's a desperately important thing for the kinds of services that those people heretofore have not had and which they have a right to have.

And so he can malign these things all he wants and he cari say that the road is no good, and when we talk about roads in Northern Manitoba I wonder if my honourable friend knows what we're talking about.

In very many case s we 're not talking about a road such as anything he has ever built as the Mayor of Transcona; we 're talking about a footpath that provides foot acce ss, or perhaps if they're lucky they may have a few bicycles or pei'hapei'if they 're even luckier they may have a tractor that they're bought out of an Indian Band Fund, provide some acce ss for people to get froin one part of an island to another. This is theki nd of a road we 're talking about. If we built this kind of a road in his cons tituency 'he would laugh at us . He would call it a forest trail.

This is the kind of service that these people heretofore in many cases have been lacking _and which this department is onlybegi.mling to try to ·give to them , people-oriented service . And ifl was wrong in stressing that in my opening remarks to the Committee tonight,· Mr. Chairman, I must plead guilty to it but l was stressing the people oriented services because this is one of the great aims of this branch, 'to give that kind of ser- . vice that just has not existed before.

And all of the other grander things that take place and that are taking place, th� es tablishment of industry, the laying out of townsites and all of these things that come willy-nllly almost with the establishment of any sort of industry at a:ll, these are going on concurrently and at the same time . I really don't take credit for them. Pe rhaps I should but I don't. These are going on, however. And my honourable friend, I think, would do well to reread 'the statutes and to understand that as a fledgling department I make no apo logies for it whatsoever to this committee tonight; I make none whatsoever.

Arid I daresay that before this Co=ittee rises tonight there may be other members --1 don't know on what side of the House ; perhaps' on this side perhaps on the other side - wlio are much more familiar with the north perhaps than I am � who can give my honourable friend some chapter, line and verse and some very definitive ideas of what Northern Affairs is attempting to do for Northern ManitOba.

So if he criticizes me I accept the criticism , but I say at the same ti:rile that thete a�e greater things g�ing on in Northern Manitoba than perhaps he has ever dreamed of greater things' gping on there today and all he has to do is to talk to some ' of the people and he'll find when he talks to those people that 'still much more has to be done, a great deal more has to be done .

The announcement made by my honourable colleague , the Minister 'or' Utilities about the provision of television for Northern Manitoba between the Manitoba Telephone System and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation . oUr department does n't ta.ke credit for �hat but this is one of the great amenitie s for the settled communities in Northern Manitoba: that is helpful in breaking the back of the great manpower shortage that we face in :rriany of the industrial centers of that part of the world. · · So J me�ely say to my honourable friend, the job is at last being undertaken if not -done .

I don it know that it ever will be done , to his satisfacti on or to mine , but at least it 's being undertaken and the se people -oriented service s which I stress and stress again we 're trying to provide within the limit of the vote that we have before us, within the areas of c·ooperation between us, Northern Affairs, Indian Affairs, Community Development. and all of the other branches of this government and where pos sible all the branches of the Fedetal Government where they may well happen to have jurisdiction, and I need mention only in that regard the que stion of the jurisdi ction of the Federal Government over Indian Reserve s in Northern Manitoba where you do find a large concentration of the population .

This is·w hat is taking place in Northern Affairs. This is the work that is under way. This is the work for which I make no apology tonight whatsoever. I only hope that greater things ca:iJ. come from it . I know we have a long way to go and I would hope that honourable members opposite will see fit to vote the very modest amount of money that is being asked for this branch in order that we can get on with the job of giving these amenitie s to the people of Northern Manitoba. · · MR .

CHAIRMAN: Before the Committee proceeds I would like to say' that I think that we should desist in this debate on northern development because there will be ample opportunity to debate under Mines and Natural Re sources or Industrial Development. So if we would stick · to the item that we are on . . · ...

March 6, 196 7 1441 MR. PAULLEY : But how can. we ? We're dealing with the question of Northern Affairs and this is of prime importance to Manitoba. MR . CHAIRMAN:. Well I 'm quite aware of this but I say that we will have opportunity to debate this under ..... MR . PAULLEY : Mr. Chairman, the way we're going in these debates we never may reach any other department dealing with northern affairs, and I suggest that ..... . MR . CHAffiMAN: Ord er, please .

It's my responsibility to see that the busine ss of the Committee is projected as rapidly as possible giving all members opportunity to speak, but it is. also my responsibility to see that there is not repetition here and I can see the same de bate coming up again under Industry and Commerce , and Mines and Natural Resource s, so I ask the members to now desist the debate on industrial development in the north.

MR:P AULLEY: Mr , Chairman, may I respectfully suggest that one of the rulings that you have just suggested we should abide by is repetition, and if when we come to the Depart ment of Indus try and Comm·erce we have a repeat of the debate that we have not heard as yet on the development of the north, then you as Chairman at that time should rule that it's re petition. Don't anticipate at this particular time , I respec tfully sugge st to you, Sir, what I am going to say when we come to the Department of Industry. and Commerce , and 1 respec tfully suggest; Mr .

Chairman, that I am dealing with the question of Northern Affairs; it is the re sponsibility of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs . However, Sir, if you rule I cannot talk on Northern Affairs under the item of the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, then I sup pose that I '11 have to abide by the decision and I cannot speak on Northern Affairs. -- (Interjection)-- So is the Minister. MR. CHAffiMAN: Well , l think my ruling is that this item will come up under Industry and Commerce and it will come up under Mines and Natural Resources ..... MR. P AULLE Y : Mr .

Chairman, you 're going to force me into an awfully awkward position because you're anticipating what's likely to be discussed in another department. Please don't force me into that position. MR . CHAIRMAN: The member may proceed but I ask him to be as brief as possible and to bear in mind that when it comes to Industry and Commerce and Mines and Natural Resource s that we will have covered this area. MR . PAULLEY: I want to say, Mr .

Chairman, first of all to my honourable friend the Commissioner of NoTthern Affairs, that I make no apologies whatsoever for what I said in my first remarks; and I' m sure· that the House will appreciate that if I have done nothing else I have extracted from my honourable. friend the Commissioner of. Northern Affairs that there is something to the north other than dogs and footbridges, because my honourable friend went on afterwards to· talk of the responsibilities of the other members of the Cabinet in other develop-" ments in the north. ·orig inally; Mr .

Chairman, he , the Commissioner of Northern Affairs, said that he had� no. responsibility within his jurisdiction for those items that I raised and said that they belonged to the Development Fund or to some other fund. He went over the whole Cabinet talking of their responsibilities.

I give my honourable friend credit for one thing but only one thing; ·He 's an able debater who is capable of pulling red herrings out ofthe bas ket and attempting to evade the issue that is. befor.e us, namely, the development of northern Manitoba, and his responsibility as Commissioner of Northern Affairs in the Province of Manitoba. :·My honourable friend talked of a vacuum . I say, Mr.

Chairman, that if we ever had an example of what .is the true meaning of a vacuum tonight we had it fully exemplified by the Attorney.,-General in his capacity as Commissioner of Northern Affairs, because he said nothing; he established nothing; he proved nothing. And while I can't say that as a vacuum is airless he was similar,· he was justthe opposite insofar as that part of a vacuum is concerned.

I say to my honourable friend I realize that the people of t;tle north are concerned with the services that they are a11Xious'to obtain; but I say. that they're also anxious for other things as well in the development of our north.

They're anxious for the establishement of industry in the north to give to their children , their young men and their young women, alternative sources of em ployment and revenue , and I suggest; notwithstanding the prating of my honourable friend the Attorney�eneral, that it is his responsibility as Commissioner of Northern Affairs to give a report to this House as to that development in the north . What would be the situation, Mr . Chairman, if each ·of his colleagues that he so ably mentioned were to turn around and say as he says, "Well it's not my .responsibility .

Let Joe make his report to this House ." That's what my honourable friend in effect said. He said the Minister of Industry and. Commerce will

1447 Mar.ch 6, 1967 (MR. PAULLEY cont'd) .•... be making a report, or the :Minister of this , the Minister of that. I say to my honourable friend, accept your own responsibility in this House . He didn't even know what his re sponsibilities were to this House when he rose to take part and introduce the est imates as small as they are of $200, 000. l\iy honourable friend referred to my lack of knowledge of anything north of Selkirk Avenue in the City of Winnipeg.

My honourable friend says, "Hear, hear." I confess I don't know too much of what's north of Selkirk Avenue in Winnipeg, but I want to say in qualifying that con fe ssion I know a darn sight more than my honourable friend the Commissioner of Northern Affairs has indicated that he knows as to what is required in Northern Manito ba.

He love s to jump on a little twig of the weak branch of a weak tree and --(Interjection)-- ye s, and he did have a weak argument, and I thank my honourable friend for suggesting that he did have a weak argument when he refers to part of the development of the north is an announcement made the other day of the possibility of the extension of TV to Northern Manitoba in about 1969. I wonder if my honourable friend when he was speaking of what's coming for the north really realized it was another two or three years hence .

My honourable friend chastised me as Leader of my group because of the fact that we didn't win the elec tion in Churchill . I wonder if my honourable friend is aware of the fact that in the Town of Churchill the candidate who ran under the auspices of the New Democratic Party obtained a majority in the Town of Churchill . Is my honourable friend aware of that fact? MR. LYON: What was your majority in the seat ? MR . P AULL EY: My friend says what was our majority in the seat ?

I say we won a majority in the Town of Churchill which is the most northern outpost in that general area and the one that he and his -- I almost said tribe and I guess that's as bad as saying mad dog so I won't -- and his gang over there suggest it 's one of the outposts or one of the areas in Northern Manitoba that we have to show every concern for . Well I say to my honourable friend, I don't know everything about the north but I know Churchill town rejected his candidate who now sits in th{s House or represents - "s its" is not the correct word is it -' who represe nts Churchill in this House .

And I wonder if my honourable friend is really knowledgeable of other areas in that riding too who rejected the government. Now, Mr. Chairman, you asked me to be brief. I will be .

I' m going to cease now but I want to say to my honourable friend the Commiss ioner of Northern Affairs that he can spread his gliff as wide and as long as he likes, he has proven to the satisfaction of myself and I 'm sure to a large number of members in this House on this side , and undoubtedly on his own side of the House as well were they free to admit it, his complete incompetency in the performance of his job as Commissioner of Northern Affairs. Not only his incompetency in the operation of the department itself, Mr . Chairman, but he hasn't even got the knowledge of his· responsibil ities.

Now , if he were a new Minister who was sitting over there for the first time I might find some reason to excuse my honourable friend, but it's inexcusable .that a member of the front row who was in this House last year when we debated fully the establishment of a com missionership of Northern Affairs - and if I remember correctly my honourable friend took some minor part, as he did tonight , in the affairs of the Commiss ioner of Northern Affairs - it's iriexcusable that a man who was here a year ago when this legislation was enacted is so incapable , unqualified and ignorant of the affairs pertaining to the department of the Commis sioner of Northern Affairs.

And my honourable friend, I give him full credit for being an able debater , but I did not think, I .did not really think, Mr. Chairman,. that my honourable friend was so prepared to stand before this House tonight as he did, particularly in his se cond oration, and give us such a confession of abject failure as a Commissioner of Northern Affairs. MR . CLEMENT: Mr . Chairman, as usual I will take but a brief few moments. I only hope the Honourable Leader of the NDP party doesn' t get left by himself in the front row any more because he gets lonely and he just has to stand up and talk. Mr.

Chairman, perhaps indirectly I am more re sponsible than any other individual in this House for the Honourable the Attorney-General having the portfolio Mi nister of Northern Affairs thrust on him. And if this is so I am sorry for him because we've bro ught wild dogs and everything else into this House tonight and they really start to bark when they get close and they hurt or they bite . Mr . Chairman, last spring when the legislature prorogued back home in the Birtle Russell constituency there was a great deal of talk about northern affairs.

Obviously a great deal of time had been spent on it and a lot of thought put into the north and a program appeared to be developing that would help the north. The present, at that time Minister of Mun icipal

March 6, 1967 1443 (MR . CLEMENT cont'd) ...•. Affairs, it was sort of -- perhaps I' m wrong but it seemed as if it was taken for granted he was going to be the Mi nister of the north -- and I think perhaps if there was a 1\Iinister of Northern Affairs as a full-time Mi nister a great deal could be done . Howev er, there was an ele ction coming up and perhaps in politics these things happen, I don't know, I' m a businessman not a politician. Anyway, the north today must be disappointed if they look in these es timates and see the fine total sum of $200 ,0 00 for Commissioner of Northern Affairs. This, Mr .

Chairman, is - well I think they'd been better if they'd forgot about it for a year rather than go about it like this . I think they picked out one of the best men in rural Manitoba for the commissioner who is in the north . I think perhaps the present Minister if it was a full-time job is capable and would do an excel lent job. However , be is the Attorney-General, 1\Ir . Chairman, and the Attorney-General of Ma nitoba is a full-time job . I don't think there 's any doubt in the world about it. So I would only suggest that there is an entry in the es timates for a Minister Without Po rtfolio .

If the Honourable the First Minister has somebody in his back benches who likes to fly, and if he could fly himself it would help a lot, could make this a full-time job and go into the north, set up in Churchill or Thompson or one of these northern base s along with the commiss ioner that they have , I' m sure the people of the north would appreciate it, I' m sure that it would be to the benefit of Manito ba.

The Honourable the Minister mentioned about televis ion in the north about $1 00 million mine opening up, about paths and bridges and a few other things , every cabinet minister in the front row has something to do with the north, and it has to be co-ordinated and tried to be channeled through the minister's portfolio - and he just hasn't got the time to do this as a part time job. It 's too big . $200, 000 -- 1\Ir . Chairman, I suggest $200, 000 won't pay for the Commissioner of Northern Affairs air transportation in the north for one year if he 's doing the job right . You just can't do it.

I would only put forward this reque st to the First Minister that if he is going to develop the north, make it a full-time portfolio and not do it for politics, let' s forget about politics; I like to forget about politics; I say, Mr . Chairman, I didn 't enter this legislature for political reasons . If I can give the Honourable the First Minister some sound judgment -- I 'm a businessman not a politician -- I 'm telling you, Mr.

Chairman, perhaps if the former Minister of Municipal Affairs hadn't been picked for this job be might have still been sitting in here because the people in the constituency that !represent thought they were going to have to phone Churchill to talk to their MLA - as it was they had to phone Winnipeg because he was never in Russell - these things are all relevant to the fact that I' m here - and I'm not running down the former MLA from Birtle-Russell because I think he 's one of the sin cere and perhaps one of the better cabinet ministers that sat across from here .

Howev er, this is getting off the. track, I know you want to get on with this estimate. I simply say this in conclusion , that I do hope the First Minister if we 're going to make this serious , go after the north, do something about it. Let 's pick somebody over there and if you can't find somebody there go and find somebody somewhere else that can do the job. Thank you. MR . CHAIRMAN : The Member for Inkster . 1\IR. GREEN: Mr . Chairman, ..... . MR. ROBLIN: Alternate the debate between one side and the other Mr. Chairman. The Honourable Member for Churchill has been trying to get to his feet twi ce . MR.

CHAIRMA N : I didn't see the honourable member . The ·Member for ••••.• MR. GREEN: Mr . Chairman, if I were going to take a long time I would yield to the Honourable member but I do be lieve I 'm going to be brief, and I do want to speak tonight be cause I'm particularly sensitive when somebody talks about a wopping elec tion defeat . I' ve ran in Winnipeg south, federally, twice and I know what it is to sustain a wopping election de feat. My honourable friend the Attorney-General de scribed the defeat of the New Democratic Party candidate in the northern riding of Churchill as a wopping elec tion defeat .

I think he said the most wopping election defeat - he used a superlative - that he 's ever seen. I think, Mr. Chairman , to be accurate, we lost that seat by roughly 3, 000 vote s to 2, 000 vote s; which means, Mr . Chairman, that we got roughly 40 percent of the vote ; which means Mr. Chairman, we got just a little more vote s than the honourable members opposite got in the province .

So if we suffered a wopping election defeat in Churchill, then at least the honourable members opposite suffered at least as wopping an elect ion defeat by the people of the Pro vince of Manitoba as a whole . -- (Interjection)--We're moving in that direction; we 're moving, Mr.

1444 March 6, 1967 (MR . GR EEN cont 'd) ...•.. Chairman , to the left and then we '11 get there eventually . My honourable friend has discussed the north in terms I submit of an election campaign because he talks about the kind of complaints, Mr .

Chairman, that I get when I 'm walking around from constituent to constituent: that the sidewalk is broken, that the neighbours next door have a dog which does things on their lawn and things of that nature and when my honour able friends says that he was up in the north this summer - well we all know that he was up in the north this summer, there were a whole slew of us politicians up in the north this summer shaking hands with one another and with people in the north - and we admit , we admit, Mr.

Chairman, that my honourable friends opposite had the resources and possi bly had the ability to fix eleltric stoves, fix bridges and take care of wild dogs, which we admit we couldn 't do within the limited means of our resources at the time, and we admit that they were capable of winning that election at that particular time . But it didn't rep re sent to us a wopping election defeat. As I' ve indicated, Mr . Chairman, it represented to us that we were moving in the north .

And if my honourable friend will look at the election results a little more closely , let him look at the town of Churchill and see who won the election in Churchill; let him look at Snow Lake and see who won the election in Snow Lake; let him look at Lynn Lake and see who won the election in Lynn Lake and let him look in Thompson , Mr.

Chairman , and see just how close the results were in Thompson -- I' m not sure , it was 100 votes either way -- but never the le ss in each of those areas where the people have had an opportunity to witness government and have an opportunity to be involved with government, because government indeed moves in populated areas more distinctly than it moves in less populated areas, my honourable friend will see that the election result did not represent a statement by the people of the north that they don't feel that the New Democratic Party represents their aspirations.

My honourable friend also mentioned north of Selkirk Avenue . Well let him look north of Selkirk Avenue within the confine s of Greater Winnipeg and he won't find any seats re presented by the Progressive Conservative Party . You will find that every seat north of Selkirk Avenue in Greater Winnipeg is represented by the New Democratic Party. · But, Mr . Chairman , to get back to the north, and my honourable friend says that we were all up north. Mr .

Chairman , I was in Thompson, Manitoba, and it was my first trip to Thompson, I don't know where my honourable friends went when they were in Thompson but I walked through the place where people live in Thompson, Manitoba - and my honourable friend the Member from Burrows referred· to it earlier. We found a re markable situation in Tho'mpson . We found that there were nice single family homes with four cars to every garage, Mr. Chair man, or four cars to many garages, which indicated to us that the people in Thompson are very affluent, they each have four cars.

But that 's not what the situation was at all; that generally we found one, two, three and four families living in the-se single family homes. And I submit to you, .Mr. Chairman; that people don't want to live that w,ay. And we have the remarKable situation in the north and this is what our leader was talking about .••.•• MR . CHAIRMAN: ..•. interrupt the honourable member, it is now 10 o' clock. I woru:ler ... MR . GR EEN: We'll get to it next week. MR . LYON: With apologies to my honourable friend, I move the committee rise , Mr . Chairman . MR . CHAIRMAN: Committee rise . Call in the speaker . Mr .

Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution and has ·directed me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. IN SE SSION MR . WATT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Merilber for Springfield, that the report of the Committee be received. MR . SPE AKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR . LYON: Mr . Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Provincial Treasurer that the House do now adjourn. MR .

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House adjourned until 2:30 Tuesd ay afternoon.

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	28-1-61
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	28th 1st hansardpdf 61.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4d0cdd837f9cc60fb3d249e30a7ac5be03036984

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