Manitoba Hansard — 22 June 1995 (Sitting 23, 36th Legislature, 1st Session)

36-1-23

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLV No. 23-1:30 p.m., Thursday, June 22, 1995 ISSN 0542-5492

� ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River fmD: N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2377 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 22, 1995 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS ·PRESENTING PETITIONS Funding Model for Quality Public Education Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Denise Crofford, Jane Anderson, Patricia Belfour and others requesting the Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Mcintosh) to reconsider the funding model to ensure that Thompson and other communities in this province are able to maintain quality public education. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson of Committees): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. Standing Committee on Law Amendments First Report Mr. David Newman (Vice-Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Committee on Law Amendments. Your Standing Committee on Law Amendments presents the following as its First Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, June 20, 1995, at 7 p.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider Bills referred. Your committee heard representation on Bills as follows: Bill 3-The Maintenance Enforcement (Various Acts Amendment) Act;

Loi sur /'execution des ordonnances alimentaires - modification de diverses lois. Denise Veilleux and Denyse Cote - Reseau Jules Gareau - Private Citizen Don Lee - Private Citizen Rosella Dyck- Private Citizen Louise Malenfant- Parents Helping Parents Marilyn McGonigal - Private Citizen Irene LaBrosse- Coalition of Custodial Parents Louise Dyck- Private Citizen Karen Johnston - The Manitoba Association of Women and the Law Mike Brentnall- Men's Equalization Inc.

Sharon Spinks - Private Citizen Kim McCorriston - Private Citizen Rhonda McCorriston - Private Citizen Michelle Bonnefoy - Private Citizen Sue Spiece - Private Citizen Judith Cornell - Private Citizen Norma McCormick- Private Citizen Victoria Lehman - Private Citizen Bill 7-The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia ville de Winnipeg Councillor Jae Eadie - Ad Hoc Committee on Election Review Councillor George Fraser- City of Winnipeg Your committee has considered: Bill 3-The Maintenance Enforcement (Various Acts Amendment) Act;

Loi sur /'execution des ordonnances alimentaires - modification de diverses lois and has agreed to report the same without amendment.

2378 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Your committee has also considered: Bill 7-The City of Winnipeg Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur /a ville de Winnipeg and has agreed to report the same with the following amendments: MOTION: THAT the following be added after

Section 3 of the Bill: 3.1 (1) Subsection 97(1) is amended by striking out "Until a person registers as a candidate under subsection (2), " and substituting "Unless a person is registered as a candidate under subsection (2), ". 3.1 (2) Subsection 97 (2) is repealed and the following is substituted: Registration ofprospective candidate 97(2) The returning officer shall register a person who proposes to be a candidate in an election if (

a) during the campaign period and before nominations close, the person makes application for registration in the form required by the returning officer and containing (i} the name and address of the candidate, the candidate's official agent, the candidate's auditor and any chartered bank or other financial institution in which accounts are to be used by or on behalf of the candidate for the purpose of the election campaign, and the numbers of such accounts; and (ii) any other information required by the returning officer; and (

b) the returning officer is satisfied that the person is eligible to be nominated in the election. MOTION: THAT subsection 7(2) of the Bill be struck out and the following substituted: 7(2) Subsection 100(3) is amended by striking out "an election until he or she files an audited statement" and substituting "until after the next election described in

section 89 (Election of Counci/)". MOTION: THAT Legislative Counsel be authorized to change all

section numbers and internal references necessary to carry out the amendments adopted by this committee. All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable member for Gladstone (Mr. Rocan), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. *

(1335) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to table the Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 1995-96 Revenue Estimates. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to provide the Sixth Annual Report for the Victims' Assistance Committee and also the Annual Report '93- 94 of the Manitoba Criminal Injuries Compensation Board.

Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have sixty Grade 5 students from R.H.G. Bonnycastle School under the direction of Mrs. Melanie Vermeylen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey). Also, we have forty Grades 5 and 6 students from Rosenfeld School under the direction of Mr. Ed

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2379 Klassen. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for Emerson (Mr. Penner). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD VL T Revenues Information Release Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Acting Premier. Madam Speaker, for a number of years now we have been asking the government to release information pertaining to Lotteries in terms of revenue and expenditures by the provincial government.

Madam Speaker, last year we introduced The Lotteries Accountability Act, and we were informed by articles that the Ombudsman had stated material was available to be released publicly but the government had chosen not to release the information to the public.

The government refused to release this information until after the election campaign and today has released some information to the public, but the information in rural Manitoba is after the public hearings that have been scheduled by the government, by the Desjardins committee that they created, and the information for the city of Winnipeg is incomplete insofar as it is a year out of date, and, of course, it coincides very nicely with the timing and introduction of VL Ts in Winnipeg for lack of information.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier, in light of the lack of information, the secrecy of this government, will they release all the information in the city of Winnipeg before the public hearing date of Monday, Madam Speaker, as they should have done before the election, during the election and before the public hearing dates across rural and northern Manitoba? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): The information released today does cover the year-end March 31, 1994.

That is the last audited financial statement of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. Their year-end is the end of March. They are now working on this year-end. The member refers to some delays.

It did take some time, there was time required to provide the details on not only where the revenue comes from, Madam Speaker, but if he looks at the. table that was released today, it also shows very clearly where the revenue flows to as well, what the allocations are back to communities in terms of direct program support, in terms of province-wide program support and in terms of support towards eliminating the deficit here in Manitoba. We will be providing the same kind of information for March 31, 1995. As I said, the corporation itself has not concluded its audited financial statement.

As soon as all information is available for that year-end it will be released, but we are pleased to release this information here today. *

(1340) Distribution Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Of course, with the way the government has calculated the material on a pro rata basis, it makes a real mockery of their argument for the last year that they had this great computer programming challenge and that is the reason for this secrecy. They could not provide this information to Manitobans because they had to reprogram the computers when they did a simple arithmetic calculation which they held till after the election-shame on the government, Madam Speaker.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier, in light of the fact that he stated in his press release of July 31, 1991, that all money would be returned to rural Manitoba for economic development-and of course, those signs were over lottery machines throughout Manitoba in rural hotels where some of them are still up-how can the government justify prorating Connie Curran 's $4.8- million U.S. grant and calculating that contribution to Connie Curran 's business? How could they justify calculating that as rural economic development consistent with the Deputy Premier's comments?

2380 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition never ceases to amaze me in what he tries to get away with in this Assembly.

For a member of a government that would not proclaim The Freedom of Information Act, and it took the election of the Filmon government, the Progressive Conservative government to proclaim The Freedom of Information Act which allows the public the information which falls within the act that they passed but would not proclaim, I fmd it strange that he is now extremely critical of any government that has moved in as responsible a way as we have. Madam Speaker, we are, I believe, the only jurisdiction that returns the monies that we return, some 35 percent, I believe it is, to our rural communities.

As well, it is clearly understood that the money that goes to deficit reduction allows us to put money into health care facilities, into education facilities and those things that the government are clearly responsible for. We, I think, have been very open and honest with the people of Manitoba, and I think it was demonstrated on the 25th of April of this year. Mr.

Doer: Madam Speaker, the Deputy Premier, whose press release I could read back to him if he chose to hear it, but I will send him a copy of it, indicated that all proceeds from VL Ts would go for rural economic development, a sign of which was in every hotel at one point across rural Manitoba. Can the Deputy Premier indicate today why his government would prorate grants like Connie Curran's contract to all of rural Manitoba under the breakdown they have provided today?

Does the Deputy Premier really believe that rural communities should have paid, in terms of their calculations and their grants, for the $4.8 million U.S. that this government signed with Connie Curran and consultants? Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, I am not going to get into a debate in Question Period.

I will clearly state that this government, I believe, lived up to and made sure that the commitments that were made to the people of rural Manitoba have clearly been made as it relates to funding from our Lotteries program, as it r�lates to living up to a commitment of making sure we live within our means and use the amounts of money that we have taken from Lotteries to help balance the books of this province so that we can have a climate where investment takes place and jobs are created. That is what the people of Manitoba asked us to do. That is what we did.

They demonstrated their support on the 25th of April of this year. *

(1345) VL T Revenues Information Release Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, it is becoming increasingly clear that, while the Conservative Party may have won the election on April 25, they have lost pretty well any integrity they ever had on issues such as this.

I would like to ask the Minister responsible for Lotteries, when he releases this so-called information, 14-month outdated information, conveniently after all three hearings in rural and northern Manitoba and conveniently two months after the election, why the information does not identify the community in which more than $24 million in VL T revenues has come from? In fact, why does this information only identify where half the VL T revenues come from in rural Manitoba? Bon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I would just encourage the member for Thompson to read the document that he has in his hand and he will clearly see that releasing site-by-site revenue figures would contravene The Freedom of Information Act by jeopardizing the financial confidentiality interest of individual siteholders.

That has been agreed to by the Ombudsman, that has been the approach used by the Statistics Canada model and it is for that very reason that we do not provide communities that have three sites or less the detailed breakdown. That is in the other categories. Communities that have four sites or more are broken

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2381 down. All of the revenue sources are outlined. All of the expenditures that go back to those communities are also summ arized in the document. Distribution Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, will the minister perhaps explain further some of the other questionable techniques in this document in terms of revenue identification, including some of the rather bizarre numbers that were used for population in terms of the access of the deficit which, particularly in the case of the town of Selkirk, puts it as being bigger than the city ofPortage?

Also, will the minister indicate how he can justify saying that such things as the Connie Curran contract are benefits to rural Manitobans, figures such as the Connie Curran contract and the Winnipeg Jets and a whole series of other things which northern and rural Manitobans are supposed to accept as a benefit for what they pay in VL Ts? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, the distribution of the lottery funds-and we show a program distribution in Manitoba of $86 million of lottery funds throughout Manitoba-those are in terms of direct supports. It will be Community Places, the Rural Economic Development Initiative.

Those kinds of direct support programs are charged very directly to those communities, but at-large programs, whether it is support for health research in Manitoba, whether it is support for amateur sport or other areas of large program support in our province, we have allocated those on a per-capita basis. I believe that all Manitobans benefit from all of those broad programs that are provided here in our province. Clearly, the allocation to deficit is something that Manitobans have told us-Canadians are telling governments right across this country, stop deficits, stop running deficits, balance your budgets.

That is partly where this money has gone, and that is clearly shown, the support that has come from each and every community in our province, Madam Speaker. Gaming Commission Additional Hearings Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): My final question to the Minister of Finance who is also Minister responsible for Lotteries: Will he now do the right thing and in terms of the current hearings that are taking place with the working group that is accessing Lotteries, contact the head of the commission and ask that there be hearings rescheduled in rural and northern Manitoba, now that this only partial information is fmally available? Will he make sure that rural and northern Manitobans finally get a say on VL Ts and lotteries? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I like to think that we always do the right thing on behalf of Manitobans. In terms of this issue, there is absolutely nothing stopping each and every Manitoban from writing the commission and putting forward their concerns on this issue. Any Manitoban who wants to communicate with the commission can do that. The commission is having public hearings. There is one in Winnipeg this Monday night.

The commission itself has indicated that if it feels there is a need for more public hearings, it will do that. There are all kinds of vehicles to communicate, and anybody who has a concern about this information or any other lottery issue should be communicating either through the public hearings, through contacting the commission, through writing to the commission or whatever. There are all kinds of avenues available to Manitobans to do just that, Madam Speaker. Personal Care Homes Report Release Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

As a result of a major documentary done approximately a year ago, the Minister of Health set up

2382 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 yet another commission to study conditions in personal care homes. During the course of the Estimates debate, the minister indicated he had on his desk a final copy of this report. Can the minister outline and indicate to this House when this report and its recommendations will be made public, so the citizens of Manitoba who have to participate in personal care homes can have some idea about what changes the government is going to introduce? Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, because of changes in care levels being experienced in personal care homes and because of concerns arising respecting extended care homes in Manitoba, the Seniors Directorate headed up a review of these residences. That had participation in it from the Health department as well as the Family Services department, and it will be very, very soon that that report will be made public. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, will the minister also indicate whether or not that report will deal with the fact that since 1992-93 government grants to personal care homes have decreased?

In fact, funding levels to personal care homes in Manitoba today are $3 million less than they were in 1992-93? Can the minister explain whether or not it will deal with those decreasing funding levels as well? Mr. McCrae: Without accepting anything the honourable member has said in his

preamble, Madam Speaker, the report will deal with what it deals with, and it will not be very long before it will be released. *

(1350) Mr. Chomiak: Can the minister also explain why it is that Manitobans are now paying $13.8 million more per year out of their own pockets for personal care homes while government grants to personal care homes have dramatically declined? Can the minister explain, and will that be outlined in the report, as to why Manitobans are paying more while they are getting less from the government? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, over the years the per diem rates for personal care homes have been adjusted by successive governments.

The one thing that I have found is that the Manitoba Health Board has been very responsive to people and their families filing appeals with respect to assessed per diem rates. A number of adjusnnents have been made, many of them in favour of the resident. That system seems to be working based on an ability to pay for one's care. That system based on a sliding scale seems to be working. Maintenance Enforcement Act Amendments Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St.

Johns): Madam Speaker, until the wee hours yesterday several members of this House heard public presentation after public presentation detailing how the government is failing single mothers and their children who rely on the Minister of Justice's department for support payments from noncustodial parents.

My question to the minister is, would she tell Manitobans, especially our single parents and their children, whether it will now immediately reverse its policy to reject the advice of many, including the Coalition of Custodial Parents, that the cancellation of support arrears be stopped and that interest be applied to arr ears of support payments? That is a simple notion, a common right, regarding other debts and court orders. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I am very pleased that we were able to sit and work into the very early hours of the morning to actually pass into third reading what I believe is good news for the women and children of Manitoba. That is the maintenance enforcement bill that this government put together. That bill, Madam Speaker, was put together based on consultation with representative groups within Manitoba, including repre sentatives from the custodial parents' groups. It was borne of consultation, and it is the toughest legislation in all of Canada.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2383 It is the toughest legislation because it puts together penalties that are not together in any other legislation, penalties such as the revocation of a driver's licence, penalties such as increased jail tenns, also penalties in the area of resources. We are able to attach pension benefit credits, Madam Speaker. So this is good news. The member asks about a very specific amendment, and that is being able to look at interest on arrears.

As I said to him this morning in Estimates, as I said on the evening that we were looking at the bill, we have a situation where an individual is failing to pay maintenance, is failing to pay arrears on maintenance and then fails to pay interest. We decided that we wanted to put together a good law and so what we did was we put in together enhanced penalties not available for other civil debts in this province. Mr. Mackintosh: That is quite a speech, Madam Speaker.

Would the minister explain then why it is this government's policy to reject making the needs of children the first and foremost consideration for the courts when awarding support payments, which was the chief recommendation of the report of the Manitoba Association of Women and the Law? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, some of these issues were raised for consideration. They are, in fact, very significant and complex possible amendments to the legislation. What I did on the evening that we heard presentations from the public and what I have said all along is this.

We can wait forever to pass this bill if that is what the member wants to do. We can wait forever while additional infonnation is brought forward and is investigated to look at the total effect of that investigation, or, Madam Speaker, what we can do is move ahead with the toughest legislation available in Canada now and leave the door open for future consideration. That, Madam Speaker, is exactly what this government has done. *

(1355) Mr. Mackintosh: Well, would the minister explain, after waiting seven years for some action and then only getting a half-hearted effort, why it is this government's policy to further disempower single parents by taking away their right to appeal decisions of court officials on how much and when support payments are to be made by defaulting spouses? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, this question shows the member's complete lack of understanding that it is, in fact, the maintenance enforcement officer who has carriage of this case now when individuals choose to enroll.

Where individuals choose not to be enrolled in the Maintenance Enforcement Program, they have complete carriage of their own case, but when they decide to enroll in the program, it is to remove from them a sense of vulnerability from perhaps the payer who could exercise a pressure on the payee to take certain actions. That action- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Minister of Justice, to quickly complete her response. Mrs. Vodrey: That action might, in fact, cause the payee or the recipient to ask for reductions.

This now gives the power to the maintenance enforcement officer who right in the legislation will receive infonnation from the recipient. But, Madam Speaker, I just have to make some comments on the record, because this government did bring forward- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Mackintosh: Madam Speaker, you have been very diligent in ensuring that the rules are followed by members on this side when asking a question. I ask that you also look to the minister when she is answering the questions and enforce Beauchesne's.

This is no time for making speeches or engaging in political posturing and raising arguments.

2384 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order, indeed the honourable member for St. Johns does have a point of order. I was on my feet reminding the minister that, indeed, I felt the response to the question had been put. Gaming Commission Additional Hearings Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Finally, we see the veil of secrecy is starting to be lifted.

The community-by-community breakdown is absolutely vital information, and I am sure that the Minister of Finance would agree that this is very important information that has finally been released to the public. So is the unedited version of the Volberg report, also the Clients of the AFM Gambling Program and Callers to the Provincial Problem Gambling Help Line: A Statistical Profile. These are absolutely vital pieces of information that this government has to present to Manitobans- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for Inkster, this is not a time for debate.

Would the honourable member please pose his question now? Mr. Lamoureux: Can the Minister of Finance indicate to us that the gambling committee will have the resources necessary if they so desire to have additional public hearings in rural Manitoba given that this information is just starting to be released? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, we have not put any restrictions on the commission in terms of financial support at this time, or in terms of any direction on the public hearing issue.

As the member knows, we have commented in this House that those kinds of decisions are being left to the commission. We have a lot of confidence in the people on that commission, the 14 individuals who make up a broad cross-section of organizations and communities from within Manitoba, and clearly they will make the decision whether or not they feel they need to have any more public hearings, and that will not be because of any budgetary restraints imposed by this government. Access to Information Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Finance: Does the minister think information like you have released earlier today would have had influence on presentations, in particular from rural Manitobans, given the fact that the rural presentations are currently over? Does he not believe that that would have had an impact on the presentations? Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Corporation Act): Madam Speaker, I am not sure that question is in order, but if his point is access to information, I have reminded some members in this House before, there is an awful lot of information about lottery dollars, gaming dollars, how they are utilized here in Manitoba, and I would encourage the honourable member to look at documents like the Public Accounts that shows where lottery dollars are utilized. It shows the listing of all of the recipient organizations.

I would encourage him to look at the information published by the Manitoba Lotteries Corpo ration that shows where the lottery dollars are utilized. So, Madam Speaker, there is an awful lot of information. There is the annual report of the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation. The Auditor herself commented on the quality of the information provided by the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation as being reliable and of high quality and so on.

This is just one other element of information that is now available to Manitobans in terms of this entire issue of gaming, and I am sure some individuals and some organizations will find it of some assistance as they move forward with this issue. * (1 400) Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Finance is correct. This is one element of very important information that is out there.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2385 My question to the Minister of Finance: Is he prepared today to ensure that additional infonnation that this government does have access to, such as the report from the Addictions Foundation in which the Premier (Mr. Filmon) himself cited when he made reference to the number of suicides as a cost because of the gambling-is the Minister of Finance- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, in response to the identical question, the Premier the other day said we are not imposing any limitations on the access to infonnation by the Desjardins commission, and the feedback that we have had very directly from the commission is that they are extremely pleased with the co-operation they are receiving from the Manitoba Lotteries commission, from the Addictions Foundation, from any organization that they require infonnation from.

So far, that has been the mood of everybody, to provide as much infonnation as possible to this commission so they can come up with the best recommendations they possibly can. We will follow that approach, the Lotteries Corporation will, the Addictions Foundation will. I would encourage the honourable member to do the same thing. Thank you. Child Prostitution Procurement Penalties Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, the document entitled The Filmon Vision, Manitoba Strong promises that, and here I quote: Anyone convicted of soliciting sex from a prostitute where the person solicited is under the age of 16 will be deemed to be a child abuser and will be required to undergo similar treatment required of other child abusers. Yet, despite this government's tough talk on child prostitution, on June 20 a Winnipeg man was fined only $400 after he was caught having sex with a 14- year-old prostitute and as well a charge of procuring a juvenile for sex was stayed by the Crown.

My question to the Minister of Justice is, does the minister consider a stay of charges and a $400 fine to be adequate treatment for child abuse? Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, this government will continue to take a very strong position against prostitution.

I will not comment on the specific case, but, as you know, the penalties or the sentencing, the consequences are provided for by the court However, I have made it clear in this Chamber and in many other places actually across the country that we consider prostitution, the procurement of a prostitute, particularly with an underage young person, to be such a serious offence that I have asked the federal Minister of Justice to make changes in the Criminal Code for life imprisonment. Ms.

McGifford: How can the minister justify the Crown's staying these serious charges of soliciting sex from juveniles given the rhetoric and promises in her government's election literature? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, again, I will not comment on the specific case other than to say that all cases are judged on their facts and also, as I have said, sentencing is the responsibility of the judiciary.

However, I can say that this government has made a very serious promise to the people of Manitoba, and we are now in the process of working as a government and co-operating departments to look at how we can now exactly bring that forward and give it effect within the province of Manitoba. I will remind the member of this government's position on procurement of a young person for the purposes of prostitution. We have asked for a life sentence. Ms. McGifford: Will the minister immediately instruct her department to appeal this sentence?

Will she issue a directive to Crown attorneys to ensure that soliciting sex from juveniles is indeed treated seriously in Manitoba courts? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, I will make it clear again to the member that as Attorney General I will not

2386 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 be speaking on any-[intetjection] The member seems to be asking a very disrespectful question in the House, and she does not have the courtesy to put it on the microphone. I have made it clear- Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I am just wondering whether it is in order for the Minister of Justice to talk about members who are asking questions are disrespectful to the House. The member asked a question about a very serious case.

If the minister does not wish to answer, she does not have to, but she should not be in any way making any accusation towards the propriety of the question asked by our member. She is doing her job as an opposition member. It is time the government minister did the same thing. Mrs. V odrey: On the same point of order, it was not the question the member asked into the microphone. It was the question the member asked when she sat down, not into the microphone, Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton), in my opinion, there is no point of order. I did not hear what the reference was made to. There is nothing on the record. The honourable Minister of Justice likewise does not have a point of order. Point of Order Ms. McGifford: On a new point of order, I wish to make the point that I did not say anything when I sat down, not a word. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Osborne does not have a point of order. I have ruled that neither of the previous members had a point of order. Winnipeg Police Services Additional Officers Ms.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (St James): Madam Speaker, the minister has now received a response from the chief of police from the City of Winnipeg, Dale Henry, regarding the province's offer for $2 million for 40 additional police officers to_ be in our communities. My question to the Minister of Justice: Can she guarantee that the province's annual block grant to the city will not be affected, that the program will be continued and that there will be initial start-up expenses included? Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): I will be happy to try and answer the three questions that were put by the member for St. James. In Estimates yesterday, I made it very clear that this government is committed to $2 million, 40 additional police officers for the City of Winnipeg, and we have, in fact, had meetings with the city and Chief Henry to deal with that. There is also an agreement that these 40 officers will be above the complement of officers which are currently there. However, she asks about the budget line in a grant to the City of Winnipeg.

That question is more properly asked to my colleague the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Reimer). Crime Rate Reduction Strategy Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St James): Does the Minister of Justice believe that the city plan to place an additional two patrol cars and an eight-person crime unit will be enough to curb the increasing crime in Winnipeg? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Speaker, the chief of police who was mentioned in the member's previous question is the person responsible for the deployment of officers and also the deployment of resources.

What we are doing as a provincial government is making

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2387 every effort to continue to assist the Winnipeg Police Services. That is why we came forward, not with the kind of a grant that the NDP were interested in bringing forward-and that was a conditional contingent grant on the city providing money also-this government came forward with money which we have provided and it was not conditional on the city providing a matching grant. Ms.

Mihychuk: Can this minister guarantee efforts will be increased to halt the escalating youth crime-and we have seen that the degree of youth crime is both increasing in intensity and in number-and like the community police programs in school- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Speaker, we certainly are very interested and concerned about any rise in youth crime in the province and have taken very specific steps to deal with it.

I am very happy to say to the member that there is a very significant decease in the area of crime in general and youth crime since that party was in government. When that party was in government there was the highest level of crime, of property crime and youth crime, 1987, Madam Speaker, and in fact there has been a decrease since this government with its policies have been in power. *

(1410) Canada-U.S. Grain Commission Canadian Wheat Board Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, the preliminary report of the Canadian-U.S. joint commission was released today. We on this side of the House are very concerned with the recommendation that states the Canadian Wheat Board should be placed at risk of profit and loss in the marketplace and conduct itself in an equivalent manner. This is a clear indication of the beginning of the dismantling of the Canadian Wheat Board.

I want to ask the Minister of Agriculture what action he is going to take to ensure that the commission and the federal government realize that this is not what the western Canadian farmers want and that this move is going to be devastating for western Canadian farmers. Bon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, I reconfirm the statements that have been made in the past with respect to the Canadian Wheat Board, both by myself and the Premier (Mr. Filmon).

The specific reference in the report alluded to by the honourable member for Swan River simply means what we have all known for a long time in Canada. The American chief complaint about the operations of the Canadian Wheat Board has to do with transparency. They maintain that their prices are Minneapolis-based. You look up at the board and you know what wheat is selling for, you know what corn is selling for, you know what durum is selling for.

They maintain, wrongly, I might add, that under our system which is a monopoly and secretive, they maintain and what the Americans fear, quite frankly, is significant and ongoing governmental support that supports those prices from time to time. So when they refer that the operations of the Wheat Board should be more at a risk of profit and loss, it means that there ought to be transparency that can be readily seen for what grain is trading for and how they are achieving their markets, Madam Speaker. Recommendations Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister if he agrees with the recommendation that says we should allow voluntary producer participation in the Wheat Board and allow Canadian firms to trade on nonwheat and barley under domestic and global contact. This is moving towards a- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The question has been put. Bon. Harry Enns (Minister of Agriculture): Madam Speaker, there has been a relative degree of dual marketing, if you like, in existence for a number of

2388 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 95 years, but, again, allow me to remind the official critic of the New Democratic Party on this particular subject, these are recommendations that are being made by this blue-ribbon commission consisting of five eminent Canadians, knowledgable in grain, five Americans. It is now up to governments to respond to them, both in Washington and in Ottawa .. Mr. Goodale was quoted yesterday as saying very clearly that he is continuing support for the Canadian Wheat Board. Ms.

Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, I want to ask the minister if he accepts the recommendation that programs such as the Gross Revenue Insurance Program and the Canadian Wheat Board initial payment guarantees should also be eliminated. Does he accept this? What steps is he going to take to get the message to the federal government that this is not what western Canadian farmers have asked for? Mr. Enns: Madam Speaker, I want to assure the honourable member that, having had the privilege of being briefed by one of our Canadian commissioners Dr.

Clay Gilson late yesterday afternoon on the release that was made today, I am very comfortable that the Canadian Wheat Board, as such, is simply not on the table for any negotiating position. Furthermore, some of the issues that she refers to, we regard and will continue to regard as purely domestic matters, and it is for us to make our decisions on these matters. However there are linkages. If the Americans move on their E program, the Export Enhancement Program, we are prepared to move on certain programs.

We all would benefit and the taxpayers in all our countries, not just in this country, in Canada and in Europe, would benefit if we downsized the rate of subsidization. Forest Fires Leaf Rapids Evacuation Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Madam Speaker, my question is for the Acting Minister responsible for EMO and the Manitoba Disaster Board. The residents ofLeafRapids were forced to evacuate this week. Some residents were evacuated to Lynn Lake and over 500 were evacuated to Thompson.

Now that the fire appears to be contained and the Leaf Rapids residents will likely be returning home in a day or two, will the government consider allowing some of the Leaf Rapids evacuees now in Thompson to remain in Thompson rather than asking them to travel to The Pas, which is an extra eight hours driving? Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I want to, first of all, clearly indicate that the minister, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr.

Praznik) are making sure today that the people who have had to be evacuated-are involved in a one-on-one basis to make sure the people and the residents who have been affected are being looked after adequately and that any concerns they may have can be dealt with directly. I thank the member for the opportunity to put that on the record. I will take the specifics of the question as notice for my colleague, Madam Speaker. Mr.

Jennissen: Madam Speaker, my supplementary question to the same minister is, are the agreements with municipalities flexible enough to deal with the rapidly changing weather conditions in the North and the need to minimize the shifting around of the evacuees? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, we have a committee set up, basically government has, of our top officials who meet at ten o'clock every day and assess the situation in terms of weather conditions, which way the winds are going, where the fires are.

They then make a decision and recommendation as to whether there should be a red alert in terms of communities that could be affected adversely or not. They also at the same time assess for the communities that have been evacuated, whether there is a possibility that it is safe enough for them to go back. Certainly it would be irresponsible if they allowed people to go back before the situation was well in hand. This is an ongoing process. They meet every day at ten o'clock in the morning, do an assessment and make their recommendations based on that.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2389 On top of that, we have people who are very much involved with the whole process out there, are on top of it. If the circumstances change within the 24 hours, they address that as well. Highway 391 Dust Control Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Madam Speaker, my last supplementary is to the Minister of Highways. people, and the Department of Labour receives that 1.25 percent towards the implementation of The Fires Prevention Act.

I would like to ask the Minister of Labour why the government is prepared to accept and use this hidden tax paid by First Nations for which they receive no benefit. Mr. Toews: The question is an interesting one, and I will take that as notice. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has Since Highway 391 was so dusty this week that expired. residents evacuating Leaf Rapids had some trouble getting out, will the Minister of Highways ensure that * (1420) proper dust control will be in place in time to benefit the evacuees returning home to Leaf Rapids and South Indian Lake? Hon.

Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Madam Speaker, I will inquire with the department about the current dust-control operations they are doing and determine if it is adequate for the circumstance. We will probably talk about it this afternoon again in Estimates. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Rupertsland, for one very short question. Fire Prevention Fund First Nations Communities Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I would like to ask the Minister of Labour why, when the property insurance premiums are collected from all Manitobans, including First Nations facilities and people's homes, is none of that 1.25 percent designated for the fire prevention fund used to assure the access to these same services by the First Nations communities of this province? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Labour): Thank you very much for that question. I will take that question as notice. Mr.

Robinson: Madam Speaker, my second question I would like to ask the minister is: Property insurance premiums paid by Manitoba First Nations councils and residents are pooled with those of all non-First Nations Speaker' s Ruling Madam Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. On Friday, June 9, 1995, during a point of order raised about a nonpolitical statement being made, the Leader of the official opposition (Mr. Doer) raised another point of order claiming that I had recognized the honourable member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) on the original point of order.

I undertook to review Hansard and report back to the House. Hansard does not show that I recognized the member on a point of order. I have listened to the audio tape, and it does indeed show that I recognized the honourable member for St. Johns, but I did not indicate that I was recognizing him on a point of order. I did not hear the member say that he was seeking the floor on a point of order which may have been due to the general disorder in the House at the time. I would ask all honourable members who are seeking the floor on a point of order to so indicate when they are recognized.

This would be sincerely appreciated by the Chair and would help in the smooth functioning of the House. NONPOLITICAL STATEMENTS Popular Theatre Alliance Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne): I ask leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

2390 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 19 95 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member fo r Osborne have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Ms. McGiff ord: On Saturday, June 24 at 3 p.m. in Cinematheque, 100 Arthur Street, the Popular Theatre Alliance is launching its new video entitled The Waiting Room. The subject of the video is women and mental illness, and it fe atures the theatre troupe Acting Out. The public is welcome. Personally, I encourage members of the Assembly to attend the perf ormance to support the Popular Theatre Alliance and the troupe Acting Out.

Secondly, on Sunday, June 25 at 3 p.m., again in Cinematheque, 100 Arthur Street, the Popular Theatre Alliance will launch a second video, this time on the immigrant experience entitled How Do You Do. The video explores the immigrant experience and employment. The theatre group is Dreamsharers. Again, I encourage members to attend the perf ormance, support these dedicated artists and their contribution to our cultural community. Thank you. 43rd Annual Negev Dinner Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, may I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement?

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member fo r Kildonan have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Chomiak: I am very pleased to rise today to make a nonpolitical statement. I should have done it yesterday, but I was unable because of illness to actually speak. I wanted to commemorate the outstanding success of the 1995 Negev Dinner that was held recently, the 43rd such dinner. Wednesday's dinner which was attended by the member fo r Tuxedo (Mr. Filmon), myself , as well-the member for St. Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) was fo rced to stay in the Chamber because of other commitments.

The 19 95 Negev Dinner was dedicated to the survivors of the holocaust, the 50th anniversary. It was a very moving occasion as it generally is. I wish to commemorate the organizers of the dinner.

I wish to commemorate all of the survivors-there was an outstanding booklet published that had individual biographical accounts-who live in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, of the holocaust-! believe they number something like 275 survivors, 400-and-some-odd children as well as a number of grandchildren-as well as commemorate a ceremony where there was a lighting of a candle to commemorate the survivors of the holocaust by the grandchildren and the great grandchildren of the holocaust victims.

There was also an outstanding presentation by an individual who represented the survivors of the holocaust, Mariam Spinak who came to the podium and delivered a most moving discussion about her experiences. I just want to quote from the dinner program what it says about her. Mariam's efforts and contributions reflect her fe elings of appreciation fo r having fo und peace. Were it not fo r the memories, lif e would be perfect. I also would like to quote an outstanding presentation made by Mr.

Arnold Frieman with respect to this program where he very eloquently described his lif e as a survivor and some of the eff orts that have sub sequently fo llowed and ended with the phrase-we hear it over and over again at events like this: never again.

I would like to commemorate all of the organizers of this particular event fo r the outstanding work they have done in the community as well as their contributions to the Jewish National Fund which goes to projects in Israel, as well as the head table fo r their contribution, Joe Schlesinger who provided a very moving testimonial speech and to all of the organizers and, most particularly, to the survivors, children of the survivors and the grandchildren of the survivors and for the memory that will live on hopefully fo rever so that an event like this will never have to be celebrated again. Thank you.

Retirement-Brandon Police Chief Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I would also seek leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2391 Madam Speaker: Does the honourable member fo r Brandon West have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and to my colleagues. It is not so often that we rise under the order of business fo r nonpolitical statements to express a level of disappointment, but I am disappointed today to pass on to honourable members that ChiefBrian Scott of the Brandon police service is retiring. We have been extremely fo rtunate in the city of Brandon to have the services of Chief Scott over the past seven and a half years.

Chief Scott has demonstrated a strong sense of responsibility to his duty and to our community, and that has been demonstrated in his commitment. Chief Scott demonstrates every day that he goes to work a high standard of achievement and expects high standards of all of the members of the Brandon police service. Indeed, that has resulted in the accreditation of the Brandon police service by an international accreditation agency, thanks to the initiative of Chief Brian Scott. In a word, Chief Scott is a prof essional, Madam Speaker. He has worked well not only with myself as a Justice minister.

When I became Justice minister, it was around the same time as Chief Scott became the chief of police, and we had a very, very cordial and fruitful working relationship. My colleague the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) advises me that that tradition has continued under her leadership as Minister of Justice with such things, fo r example, Madam Speaker, as the significant enhancement of services to victims in the city of Brandon.

So I think all of the people of Brandon and far beyond and certainly myself and members of my fa mily, when Brian and Marilyn Scott retire to British Columbia, we will have all had to say goodbye and bon voyage to some very, very good friends. *

(1430) ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Acting Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, would you be so kind as to call for second reading Bills 20 and 23. SECOND READINGS Bill 20-The Child and Family Services Amendment Act Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. Gilleshammer), that Bill 20, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act; Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur les services a I' enfant et a Ia fa mille, be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mrs. Mitchelson: Madam Speaker, I am pleased to make a fe w brief comments this afternoon on Bill 20, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act. * (14 30) Madam Speaker, this amendment is necessary to enable The Child and Family Services Act to comply with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and with the recent decision of the Supreme Court of Canada.

On January 27, 1995, the Supreme Court issued a ruling on a case in Ontario relating to state intervention where parents deny their children lif esaving medical treatment. The court ruled that providing such care to children against the wishes of parents is a justified infringement on religious freedom provided that such medical treatment is justified bef ore a judge. The Ontario legislation has this procedural requirement, but the Manitoba Child and Family Services Act does not.

We have been advised that our act must be changed if its provisions regarding authorization of medical treatment fo r all children in agency care are to remain in fo rce.

2392 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 The amendments in Bill 20 do two things, Madam Speaker. They will change The Child and Family Services Act to make it consistent with the requirement set down in the Supreme Court ruling. They will also bring the act's lif esaving medical care provisions into line with The Health Care Directives Act with respect to obtaining consent from a child 16 years of age or older. With these brief comments, Madam Speaker, I recommend this bill fo r support and passage by all members of this House. Thank you. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member fo r Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 23-The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Bill 23, The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'assurance-maladie ), be now read a second time and be ref erred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, The Health Services Insurance Amendment Act deals solely with administrative provisions of The Health Services Insurance Act. It will provide protection from liability for members of the Manitoba Health Board, the Medical Review Committee and the Formal Inquiry Committee who carry out their responsibilities in good fa ith.

It will clarify the administrative provisions dealing with the investigation of irregular billing practices by practitioners and permit the Medical Review and Formal Inquiry committees to fulfill their mandate to ensure that appropriate billing practices are enf orced. This bill will also extend the time within which Manitoba Health can prosecute fo r off ences committed under the act. The time will be increased from six months to two years from the time that the off ence was committed or evidence of the off ence became known.

Finally, the bill will clarify the regulatory powers respecting the maintenance of_ residents' trust funds by personal care homes to ensure our ability to continue enf orcing the current regulation dealing with such matters. I commend this bill to the attention and support of all honourable members. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I move, seconded by the member fo r Kildonan (Mr. Chomiak), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. House Business Bon.

James McCrae (Acting Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on a matter of House business, by leave, the sequence for the consideration of Estimates to be discussed in Room 255 is to be amended as fo llows: Immediately fo llowing the completion of the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Natural Resources, the Estimates of the Department of Housing and Home Renovation Program -Capital will be considered. The sequence for Room 255 will then be as fo llows: Natural Resources, Housing, Home Renovation Program - Capital, Status of Women, Energy and Mines.

Madam Speaker: Does the honourable acting government House leader have leave to change the sequence of House business fo r consideration of the Estimates? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2393 Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the honourable member fo r La Verendrye (Mr.

Sveinson) in the Chair fo r the Department of Highways and Transportation, Community Support Programs, Employee Benefits and Other Payments, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote, Allowance fo r Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities, Allowance fo r Salary Accruals, Internal Ref orm, Workf orce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, and Urban Economic Development Initiatives; the honourable member fo r Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine) in the Chair for the departments of Natural Resources and Housing; and the honourable member fo r St. Norbert (Mr.

Laurendeau) in the Chair fo r the Department of Justice. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) IDGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. When the committee last sat, it had been considering Item 2.(

n) Policy, Planning and Development (1 ) Salaries and Employee Benefits, on page 90 of the Estimates book and on page 65 of the yellow supplement book. Shall the item pass? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Could I just add some more information to the record. We were talking this morning about Winnipeg Airport Authority, and we do not quite know what the membership was. I could just quickly give an indication. Members appointed by Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce, there are two, one member appointed by Winnipeg 2000, one member appointed by the St.

James-Assiniboia Chamber of Commerce, three members appointed by the City of Winnipeg, one member appointed by the R.M. of St. Andrews, one member appointed by the R.M. of Rosser, three members appointed by the fe deral government, one member appointed by the provincial government. Directors appointed by the board, they have appointed Alexa Campbell from the Consumers' Association of Canada and Dr. Barry Prentice from the University of Manitoba, and, in addition, we are told that they have the full intention, with one vacant board position, of appointing a labour representative. That is their intention.

That is all we have been told, is they are in the process of naming a labour representative. So you have a Consumers' Association representative and a labour representative. One is on, and one is going to be appointed, is what we are told. Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): A fe w years ago, I believe, there were headquarters of 11 major trucking firms in Winnipeg. Now that is down, I believe-pardon me, nine out of 11 were headquartered in Winnipeg. Now that is down to about six out ofl do not know how many. That seems to be a rather disturbing trend. Does this mean we are losing trucking volume?

Why are these headquarters moving? Mr. Findlay: My basic belief in the trucking industry in terms of job creation, it is thriving. I think the figures where we had eight out of the largest trucking companies in Canada, in Manitoba, eight out of 13, it is now six out of 10, but the number of trucks and tonnes hauled and drivers employed is steadily rising. I am sure that the member is aware that there has been over the last year quite a number of comments coming from the trucking firms. They cannot get enough drivers.

It is a fai r process to get what is called a driver today because you have to have experience, and they want two or three years of driving experience with a clean record. That is the kind of person they want for insurance purposes, but there is a steady, steady demand for truck drivers. Any of the trucking company executives I have talked to, they have constant-they have more loads on

2394 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 the books than they can manage. So the owner operator has lots of options in terms of working for somebody. No, I think that by and large the trucking industry is very strong. In terms of the international haul, the U.S. haul, our carriers have expanded and done very, very well competitively in terms of sourcing loads in the U.S. and hauling into the U.S. Some of our carriers which are stationed here may only drive 15 percent of their miles in Canada. The other 85 percent are driven south of the line. *

(1440) I do not think those numbers that the member used shows any decline. In fact, it shows a strengthening of the strong ones, and the number of truck-driving jobs has expanded. I think that companies have made a very concerted effort to be sure that the conditions under which the drivers operate, particularly, come to Christmas time, they make very sure that they are home, that they get home.

They buy them plane tickets, or whatever, to allow them to get home, so that they will be home for that holiday period, because, let us face it, our trucks are all over North America at any given point, and the demand of the people who are paying the cost of the shipment is that the product get there on time and on a steady basis, but, no, I feel it is doing real well. Mr. Jennissen: I have a whole series of questions to ask on Policy, Planning and Development, but I think in order to speed it up, I am not going to ask anymore in the section, but my honourable colleague, I do believe, has a couple more. Mr.

Daryl Reid (Transcona): When I was asking questions before, Mr. Chairperson, relating to the railways, an oversight on my part, I forgot to ask questions about the VIA Rail employment levels. As a result of the arbitrator's recent ruling this month relating to the railway contracts with their employees, we learned that VIA Rail is being allowed to cut some 422 jobs nationwide. Now, can the minister tell me, has he had any indication from VIA on how many, if any, of those jobs will be lost in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Findlay: No, I do not have any information. Mr.

Reid: Well, the minister indicated, I believe, that he met with VIA in May. Did that question get asked of VIA in May? Mr. Findlay: As I said earlier, staff were involved at the meeting in May in Toronto at a TAC meeting, I believe it was, and, no, that question was not asked. Mr. Reid: So we did not ask the question of how many employees potentially could be lost in Manitoba from VIA.

We did not ask the question of CN when we met with them two weeks ago, how many employees are going to be lost in Manitoba and what the long-term job prospects are going to be and what the future of the main shop operations are going to be. So we have essentially let the railways off the hook without asking them any of the hard questions that need to be asked to ensure that we have some idea on where at least rail transportation is going within the province of Manitoba. Is there a reason why we did not ask those questions? Mr.

Findlay: I think, as I said to the member this morning, any company that has got confidential information would be foolish to tell it to anybody. We ask all kinds of questions. We seek to get as much information as we can. We support the principle. We want to be well considered in the process of their job reductions. We do not want to be negatively impacted. The member full well knows that no company is going to say, well, our plans are this and that; do you agree?

We want to be considered as a place to do business, and we have done a lot of things in government to make it attractive, and that is well respected by the people who are making those decisions. You cannot run companies from this table or from any government,

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2395 and that is just the bottom line. We will do well, I can assure the member, in the process. We have a grave concern about Church ill and what will happen there. That has been a topic of considerable discussion. I have some comfort from CN that there is not going to be a big shoe fall. So there are a lot of questions on the table. If you supply a good environment, and somebody has a lot of goods to move, and you have an attractive rate to offer them, the jobs will be there. You cannot create jobs when there is not work or an opportunity to deliver a service. Mr.

Reid: Well, I believe in recent comments that were made by Mr. Tellier, who is the head of CN Rail. He indicated that since 1995, it is supposed to be the third and fmal year of the job reductions, the rationalization of staff in the CN system, and that means there is another, potentially, I believe, 2,800 jobs, if I recall correctly, jobs that are going to be lost across Canada this year. I mean, if the minister or his staff people did not ask the question, are we going to be once again reactive to the loss of some of those 2,800 jobs in the province of Manitoba? Mr.

Tellier, at the same time, has also indicated that there is going to be ongoing and continuing layoffs, so we have no idea, from what the minister is telling me, of what is going to happen in 19 96 or '97 or '98 as far as employment is concerned. I think in fairn ess to the people that are doing these jobs, they would like to know what the future holds for them, so that it would help them to make some of the decisions affecting their own personal lives, too. They are being kept hanging out there now for a period of time, and it is quite distressing for the families that are involv ed.

That is one of the reasons why I am asking these questions here, because these people would like to know what the future holds for them. If the minister has that information or if he has not asked that question of how many of those 2,800 jobs are going to be lost in Manitoba, I find it strange that we would not have asked that question. Mr. Findlay: Well, I hope the member would appre ciate that there is no such thing as absolute job security for anybody in this world today. Every bank employee, every trucker, every welder, every federal civil servant would like to know what his future is.

They have families, they have considerations, to use the member's words, and they need to have the security of knowing what their future is. . That is not possible in today's wor ld. We would all like to know that, not only just the CN Rail workers that the member is talking about. We would like to know it for everybody, and the way you can assure your future is in first-rate perf ormance in an overall society, and I think Canada does well in that. I have already told the member, in the process of the decision making that Mr.

Tellier is going through, I have said very pointedly, we do not want to be negatively impacted in any greater sense than any other jurisdiction. I have said that straight to his face. He says, do not worry; in the context of what you have done for the rail industry, you will not be. It does not mean we will not have job reductions, but we will not have any greater percentage than other locations in the country.

I cannot ask an individual to offer anymore than that You might like to have more, but we are living in a real world today, and I cannot go to the credit union centre and say, I want to know what every employee across Manitoba is going to be treated like over the next five years, or to the trucking firms or to the federal government and say, I want to be sure that there will be no layoffs in Manitoba. That is not a reas onable question. We might like to know the answer, but it is not a reasonable question. *

(1450) What I have done, as I have told the member, is secured new-generation type jobs for Manitoba in the customer service centre, which if we would have sat on our hands could have easily gone elsewhere, but we pursued them and got them here, but the member fails to recognize or appreciate there is any value in that. Mr. Reid: Well, I will repeat for the minister's information again, if he can show me one job that has

2396 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 been transferred to the pr ovince of Manitoba into that new function that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) went to the photo opportunity for, then I will retract my previous words, but there has not been one new job come here, not one new person come here to fill those jobs to this point in time. Mr.

Findlay: The member must appreciate that there are eight centres across the country and they are in the process of being moved here, transferred here, jobs to employees who will be transferred from other activities and then there will be other employees undoubtedly hired that are not curr ently members of CN. That growth will occur. The member is trying to make a negative situation out of a very positive opportunity. He would real ly be on a case if that was happening in Alberta. He would really be on a case. It is happening here, but he wants to ignore that there is a positive there .

It is unfortunate because it is not constructive to trying to help people have employment opportunities in Manitoba. Mr. Reid: How many Canadian rai l traffic controllers do we have in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Findlay: Canadian- Mr. Reid: -rai l traffic contro llers, jobs. How many are in the province of Manitoba? Mr. Findlay: We do not have the number. Mr.

Reid: I did not think the minister would have the number because his department has not done the research to determine how many jobs we are going to be losing with that function when it transfers out of the province ofManitoba We are going to have a negative net position in jobs when the CRTC people transfer out of the province of Manitoba in comparison to the jobs the minister is talking about with the customer call centre here . We are going to be in a negative position. We are going to lose jobs, the net result. That is what I have been trying to tell you now for a year. It is not helping us any.

You bring some jobs in in one function, but we lose more in the other and a photo opportunity is not helping these people. Mr. Findlay: Mr. Chairman, as I have told the member several times now, I have had assurance from senior, senior officials, CN, to the absolute contrary . So on that we will obviously have different opinions for a long time to come. Mr. Reid: I suppose we will have a difference of opinion with the minister on that one and time will tell whether or not there is any gain in jobs, but at the current time there is not.

Can the minister tell me, since the federal government just tabled their deregulation bill, their form of the Staggers Act with respect to railway regulation, is the minister anticipating that he is going to make a presentati on with respect to that legislation? Mr. Findlay: Certainly we are giving strong cons ideration to making pres entation on a variety of elements in it. Mr. Reid: Can the minister indicate what portions of the legislation he has difficulties with? Mr. Findlay: Staff are now looking at the various aspects of it.

We will make decisions on where we need to make representation and we will be waiting for input from other people who want us to make representation on one element or another, but we will look into the overall thing. Mr. Reid: Can the minister tell me, since it is my understanding that there will be signi ficant impacts upon the various municipalities of the province, will the minister's department be asking for input from the stakeholders, including the municipalities and producers- Mr. Findlay: Impact in what context? Mr.

Reid: -since this deregulation bill will allow the railways to have unfettered abandonment of the branch lines in one aspect of this? Mr. Findlay: Loss of municipal tax. Mr. Reid: Right, from that aspect, but also from the producers' point of view where they will not have

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2397 access to the rail lines, will obviously have to haul further, will the producers and the municipalities as two groups at least be asked to have some input into the minister's presentation? Mr.

Findlay: Dealing with the municipalities from the standpoint of road impact, municipalities of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta have all made representation to have consideration out of that $300 million adjustment fund of the fe deral government, of which Minister Goodale is in charge of , as we have as a province and as Saskatchewan and Alberta have, consideration to offset the impact of additional road wear and tear created by less rail lines.

We have also made strong consideration on any rail line that CN or CP no longer want to operate, it will be made available fo rthright fo r short-line operation, the idea being to keep the grains travelling on a rail going to the main line. We want to reduce the impact on municipal provincial roads by short lines and at the same time where there are abandonments to have consideration fo r municipal road infrastructure support and provincial road infra structure. Mr. Reid: The minister ref erenced the $300 million as far as the Crow buy-out money, we will call it the WGTA buy-out adjustment fund.

Do we have any indication of how much of that money will be coming to the province ofMa nitoba for upgrading of roads? Mr. Findlay: The only numbers we have yet, and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) used them in the House the other day and they have been in the rural newspapers. I would have to say they are probably not official, but they talk in terms of compensation fo r pooling costs for Saskatchewan-Manitoba fa rmers of around $100 million to $120 million, about $40 million for adjustment expenses for the dehyd industry, alf alf a dehyd industry .

That leaves approximately $150 million, in very round figures, available fo r road infrastructure impacts fo r municipalities and the three provincial governments in the West. There has been no additional breakdown on that, on any of those figures. Mr. Reid: Have we made representation to the fe deral government, considering that there is $150 million, of which I believe $20 million of it is supposed to go to administration, which boggles the mind-how we can spend $20 million out of a $300-million fund fo r administration in such a short period of time. First off , why are we spending $20 million?

Why is the fe deral government spending $20 million on administration when that should be coming to the provinces to put into their programs? Why is it we are at this point in time where we are only two months away, or less, from the elimination of the Crow and the WGTA, and yet we have no idea what benefit is going to come to the province as far as funding transfers. Mr. Findlay: I think the member is confusing the $300-million adjustment fund with the $1.6 billion of Crow payout money, buy-out money, whatever you want to call it.

As for the administration, it will be, probably, fa irly involved, but I am not going to give any excuses for why the fe deral government has been so slow in this whole process. This whole process is to kick in August 1 of this year, and they just barely tabled the bill Tuesday of this week-two days ago. We have not seen it yet. I do not know how they will have it passed and in effect by August 1, with the tremendous amount of detail unresolved and a tremendous amount of impact on far mers, railroads, trucking companies and grain companies.

They are all up in the air in terms of what is going to be the impact on them, where do they fit in the bigger picture, who has so-called protection, who is left without protection. There is a multitude of unans wered questions, and they have been dragging this process on fo r several months, knowing for, at least the last year, they were targeting August 1. We are really just two months away . It is astounding, and I am almost amazed that there has not been an outcry from the people that are going to be aff ected. Maybe they are all keeping quiet, hoping this thing will never really happen. Mr.

Reid: I believe there was a report that was out earlier this year with respect to the bayline-and since this has been, historically, grain-related, even though it provides other services to the various communities along the way-that the fe deral government was

2398 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 anticipating kicking in, I think, some $27 million, I believe was the figure, for the upgrade of the line. *

(1500) Can the minister tell me if there has been any progress on any of those monies forthcoming from the federal government to upgrade the bayline, since it is my understanding that the bay line may move towards either a short-line or a regional-line operation? Mr. Findlay: The $27-million figure that we all saw-it was in The Globe and Mail one day-over the course of time, it was found to have had no substance. It was thought to have been a reliabl e source that was quoted but it turned out it was not. That money was to have come out of that $300-million adjustment fund.

That is the way it was set up, but there has been no substance to that report. The task force, as the member knows, became the Gateway North interim committee, and they have sent that concept proposal to the federal government with no response yet. It went in May 12, I believe it was, and no response yet. In fact, it went to-Lloyd Axworthy is who it went to. Yet, nobody has a response back from them. In fact, the same day it was delivered to our Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson), Saskatchewan's Minister of Economic Development and Lloyd Axworthy.

It is asking for federal response and commitment on several items-no response yet. Mr. Reid: I suppose we will have to wait, then, and see what comes out of the Gateway North proposal and whether or not there is going to be any federal participation, fmancially speaking, towards that project. Mr. Findlay: Several peopl e looking at business opportunities associated with using the bayline or the port are reasonably optimistic that there is real opportu nity there, and I think I said earlier, they have got together some $50,000 for a feasibility study, but they cannot do that.

There is no point in doing that till they get some indication of where the federal government is going to go in terms of the requests made of them. If they are positive responses , they will be off and running. If they are lukewarm or negative, it is hard to say what the response will be. There is a lot of optimism out there that there is real opportunity in moving special crops out, I think the member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen) mentioned, or coming in from a mine in Newfoundland. Conceptually, those things are all possible, and what else? Who knows?

There are lots of other things that can happen if the fundamental line and the port are given an opportunity to operat� in some viable context. Mr. Reid: Are there other short-line opportunities being developed in the province of Manitoba? I bel ieve a year ago there was some discussion about a line down by I think it was W askada. I do not believe that that has progressed to this point of time, at least as far as I am aware. Are there any other possibilities being talked about at this time with the departmental staff, the minister, by members of the public or other companies? Mr.

Findlay: There has been talk, as the member mentioned, of Lyleton sub. There certainly has been talk about the Rossburn line, and it was advertised for alternate means of use of the line. The successful bidder ended up being a trucking company. I am not sure just where that contract is at between the trucking company and CN. At this stage, there are no other ones that are actively being pursued that we are aware of as short lines. That idea will not really surface until one or the other of the rail lines make a comment that this line is available for short li ne. That is when the rubber will hit the road. Mr.

Reid: I take it then that it is likely that the railways are waiting until the deregulation bill goes through until they make their intentions known. A question rel ated to the CN line east out of Winnipeg. Last year the department put on hold its plans to build an underpass under the rail line at Provincial Trunk Highway 15 and the CN mainline because there was some question about the long-term future of that rail line. Can the minister tell me, what is the status of that line and that project at this time? Mr.

Findlay: The idea that that CN line woul d not be used again in the future came up during the discussion about the CN-CP merger. The CP offer came forward and then all that discussion collapsed. Now that they

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2399 are into the commercialization, we do not have a clue what their plans are on that line. I do not think anybody will know until the commercialization is complete and the new board or owners make some study or make some statement on it. For us, in terms of highway development, not in terms of the northeast Perimeter, we are not going to spend money on an underpass. We are going to do it at grade level crossing there until such time as there is a better comfort zone as to whether the line will be there for the long term or it will not be.

Right now, to our knowledge we are totally in limbo about that. Mr. Reid: Just on that point that the minister raised during my last question. Since the CN is going to be privatized by way of the federal government legislation, what is to stop the two railroads, the two mainline railroads that will be in Canada, CP and CN, from merging their rail line services once CN becomes privatized? Mr. Findlay: I think there are two catches for anybody who would want to see that happen. One is that in the commercialization they stated that no one entity could own more than 15 percent.

For instance, CP could not come and buy them out completely. The other thing is the Competitions Act. They would have to go over those ropes, and so far I think the attitude in Canada is that people want two railroads. It remains to be seen whether somebody would try to do that, the new owner or owners would try to do that. As I said earlier, we do not see that as being beneficial for shippers' interests or western Canadian interests at all. We were not happy with the proposal of CP buying CN, and we are glad that it did not materialize.

In the event that it was attempted again, we would not consider it positive for shipping services by rail in Manitoba. Mr. Jennissen: I am prepared to pass 15.(2)

(1) Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 15.2 Highways and Transportation Programs (

n) Policy, Planning and Development

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1,657,700-pass; 15.2(n)

(2) Other Expenditures $432,300-p ass. 15.2 Highways and Transportation Programs (

p) Driver and Vehicle Licensing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Jennissen: Under the vehicle inspection program, this is a constituency question that a constituent, actually two of them, asked me to raise, and I think this is probably the appropriate time. *

(1510) The gentleman owns a pumpout system, a sewage system, he hauls liquid sewage from the various cabins around Cranberry Portage. It is within about a two- to three-kilometre radius. His argument is that he is forced to-first of all the size of the vehicle is I would guess the tank to be between 500 and 1,000 gallons. It is not huge, but it is over a ton, obviously. He has to inspect that vehicle every year. He says that it is time consuming and it is costly. His argument is it is not necessary every year, and the reasoning he uses, and it makes sense to me, is that farmers do not have to do this.

They have vehicles, three-ton, five-ton, they go much longer distances and they are exempt from inspection. Why would he not be exempt? I am just asking the question. Mr. Findlay: Can I ask what kind of plate does he have on the truck? Mr. Jennissen: I am sorry, I do not remember. Mr. Findlay: The whole purpose of the annual inspection for commercial vehicles is to improve safety on the road, to give the driving public some comfort that those commercial vehicles that are coming towards them have undergone some degree of annual safety inspection.

There is a strong belief that will improve safety of vehicles on the road. The member says that farmers are exempt. They presented a strong argument that the majority of their miles are not on the main highways. They are on the municipal roads. They do not travel at anywhere near the highway speeds, and the amount of miles they put on per year is very low. It would be impossible to administer a program where a whole bunch of selective individuals were given special treatment. I think the

2400 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 bottom line fo r us is to be sure that there is saf ety on the roads. In dealing with the farm community, I did ask the department, can you prove that there have been accidents created by farm vehicles because of lack of proper safety aspects of the vehicle, whether it is tires or lights or turn signals or whatever it is? The statistics did not exist. So I have told the farm community, you will continue to be subject to spot inspections.

If an inspector or a police officer stops you on the road for whatever reason and he does an inspection on you and he finds you have fa ulty equipment, you are on the hook right then and there. Nothing changes for you, as has been in the past. Also, in the event that there is an increased incidence of accidents related to farm vehicles and it could be tied to the fa ct they did not do the proper safety maintenance on their vehicles, we will roll them into the legislation. On that basis they were given exclusion fo r the period of time to continue to prove that they are good actors.

As long as they remember that and are responsible in keeping their vehicles saf e, it will be okay. For every individual like myself who is a fa rmer, we always fa ce a liability if we have a vehicle on the road that did not have turn signals and we caused an accident because of that. The liability comes back on me. We are driven to be sure that our vehicles are saf e. That is where it sits now, and I think the public is better served by having all commercial vehicles go through the annual inspection. Mr.

Jennissen: Well, there was a similar case in Cranberry where the gentleman owns a fa irly large truck and he hauls wood commercially but only about fo ur or five loads in the fa ll. He fe els, again, if they inspect it every five years, that will make a lot of sense. Most of the driving is done off the main highways, the same as with the sewage truck. The argument keeps coming back that fa rmers seem to be getting pref erential treatment-another example of how northerners get shafted. Mr. Findlay: Well, I cannot help the member fe el any better. That is just the way it is at this point in time.

I just say to the member that the more inspections we have on vehicles, the saf er it is for the public at large in general. Mr. Jennissen: My question is with regard to photo cards, and I thought they were an excellent idea, by the way. Am I correct in assuming that they are renewed every two years? An Honourable Member: Four. Mr. Jennissen: Every fo ur years. Okay . Mr. Findlay: Initially, it was every two years, but now that we are into the full cycle it is every fo ur years. Mr. Jennissen: That makes a lot more sense because I was hoping they would go every five years or so. Okay, fo ur years.

One other question-! think you may have answered it partially a day or so earlier-is with regard to licence plates. There is some move to put two licences on every vehicle. That is in the works, let us say, within a year or two? Mr. Findlay: The decision has not been made. As I said to the member, there has been a lot of representation, all in fav our of two licence plates. It makes all kinds of common sense. I just remind him that it was the previous administration that went from two down to one. Now you are back asking for two, so okay. Mr.

Jennissen: I guess the question could be: Was the previous administration progressive? Mr. Findlay: Okay, no, it was not. Mr. Jennissen: I beg to diff er-[interjection]-but anyway I am still begging to diff er. I would like to pass this. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item 2. Highways and Transportation Programs (

p) Driver and Vehicle Licensing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2401 $1 0,859,900-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $5,364,� pass;

(3) Manitoba Public Insurance Cost-Sharing Agreement $3,672, 1 O�pass. 2.(

q) Boards and Committees

(1) Motor Transport Board (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $299,300. Mr. Jennissen: I basically have just one question in order to speed it up a little bit. Under corrective measures on carriers for breaches of regulations, any idea on the numbers of breaches we are talking about in a year? Under Activity Identification, the last one says: Initiates corrective measures on carriers fo r breaches of regulations. Are we talking huge numbers of breaches? Mr. Findlay: There were 22 show-cause items or cases brought fo rward. Out of the 22, 21 resulted in an imposition of fines and board costs totalling $47,800, and one was just given a reprimand. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 2.(

q) Boards and Committees

(1) Motor Transport Board (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $299,30�pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $136,000 -pass. (2)Highway Traffic Board (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $216,9 0�pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $63,70�pass.

(3) Licence Suspension Appeal Board and Medical Review Committee (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits -$216,900-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $88,300-pass. (4)Taxicab Board (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $295,90�pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $82,80�pass. Resolution 15.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $55,175,800 fo r Highways and Transportation, Highways and Transportation Programs, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1996. * (15 20) 3. Infrastructure Works, Operating (

a) Maintenance Program $56,545, 1 O�pass. (

b) Mechanical Equipment Services ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $7,512,9 0�pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $15,4 36,800-pass;

(3) Less: Recoverable from other appropriations ($25,853,600)-pass. Expenditures Related to Capital (

c) Construction and Upgrading of Provincial Trunk Highways, Provincial Roads and Related Projects Provincial Programming (including Manitoba's share of Strategic Highway Improvement Program) $96,900,00�pass; Canada's Share of Strategic Highway Improvement Program $6,1 00,00-pass. (

d) Aid to Cities, Towns and Villages $1 ,300,000 -pass. (

e) Work in Local Government Districts and Unorganized Territory $3,760,00�pass. (

f) Rural Municipal Bridge Assistance Program $400,00�pass. (

g) Other Projects $2,552,1 O�pass. Resolution 15.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $16 4,653,300 fo r Highways and Transportation, Infrastructure Works, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 19 96. The last item to be considered fo r the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation is item I. (

a) Minister's Salary-$22,800. At this point, we request the minster's staff to leave the table fo r the consideration of this item. Item l. (a). Mr. Reid: I have one last question. I cannot let this

section go by without asking this question, Mr. Chair person. Is the minister contemplating any changes in fe es or regulatory matters for the Taxicab Board this year? Mr. Findlay: No, I, as minister, am not contemplating any. I cannot speak fo r the board in tenns of the degree of independence in which they operate, but I am not aware of any change in fe es, no.

2402 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Mr. Deputy Chairperson: I.( a). Mr. Jennissen: I am sorry. I am not sure this is the appropriate time to ask it, but this went a little bit fast for me. Again, it is on the Taxicab Board. Ifl am past the item do not answer it, but the Administrative Support has gone up tremendously. There were three salary year-this is on page 75, and I was going to ask that question. From last year to this year, some $47,000 for the three positions and that is over $1 5,700 a person. It seems awfully high. I am just wondering about some information on that. Mr.

Findlay: I cannot give it to you. I would have to get it from staff. An Honourable Member: Yes, I shoul d have caught it earlier. I am sorry. Mr. Findlay: There is obviously some good explanation. Whether it is a-[interjection] There might be a severance involved there, a buy out or whatever that caused it to jump. I will find out. Mr. Jennissen: No further questions. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Item l. {

a) Minister's Salary $22,80�pass. Resolution 15 .1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $5,301,700 for Highways and Transportation, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 19 96. This completes the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Transportation. The next set of Estimates that will be considered by this

section of the Committee of Suppl y are the Estimates of the Department of Community Support Programs. Shall we briefly recess to allow the minister and the critics the opportunity to prepare for the commencement of the next set ofEstimates, and should we leave the clock running? Agreed? [agreed] COMMUNITY SUPPORT PROGRAMS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set of Estimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates for the Community Support Programs on page 25 of the Estimates book. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement? Bon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chairman, a very brief one. I am pleased to have the opportunity to make some opening remarks, and I will be joined shortly by Mr. Jim Berry who is the Director of the Lotteries Distribution System. The role of the Community Support Programs is threefold; firstly, it provides management and co ordination of lottery fund disbursements through government departments.

Secondly, it provides access to community organizations seeking information on lottery funding and, as well, may provide grant assistance to organizations who do not meet normal funding criteria within the system. Its third component is to monitor and evaluate the nonprofit community organizations who receive lottery funding to ensure compliance to the original objectives of these organizations. Community Support Programs provide an accountable, efficient, accessible and flexible system in the distribution of lottery funds to enhance the quality of life for all Manitobans.

With those very brief opening comments, I will be pleased to take any questions. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton {Thompson): I just want to indicate that we will be asking numerous questions on Lotteries issues . We have today. We will be in the future, as well, but not under this particular item. We look forward to the Lotteries Foundation report being brought in because we have been waiting close to two years and there are a lot of questions we will be asking.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2403 *

(1550) Just one question before we are prepared to pass this line just so we can anticipate a bit down the line. I am wondering if the minister is also going to be responsible for the urban economic initiatives because I will be having some questions on that. Mr. Stef anson: Yes, I will be, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ashton: We will be passing this. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: 1. Community Support Programs (

a) Lotteries Distribution System

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $98,600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $27,300-pass;

(3) Grants $267,200-pass. (

b) Festival du Voyageur $323,000-pass. (

c) Folk Arts Council of Winnipeg $304,000-pass. (

d) United Way of Winnipeg $2,238,700-pass. (

e) Valley Agricultural Society $64,000-pass. (

f) Harness and Quarterhorse Racing Support $395,000-pass. (

g) Winnipeg Convention Centre -Capital-pass. (

h) Manitoba Community Services Council $2,000,000-pass.

G) Winnipeg Football Club $350,000-pass. Resolution 33.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $6,067,800 for Community Support Programs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. This concludes the Estimates for Community Support Programs. The next Estimates to be considered are the Estimates for the Emplo yee Benefits and Other Payments. EMPLOYEE BENEFITS AND OTHER PAYMENTS Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set ofEstimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates for Employee Benefits and Other Payments on page 4 7 of the Estimates book. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement? Bon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Chairman, not really. This is an ongoing cost of government for our entire employee benefits package that are listed in some detail here. Any adjustments on costs are attributable to adjustments on, basically, I would think on rates being charged by other levels of government, the federal government or the plans themselves. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the member. 1. Employee Benefits and other Payments $33, 720,500-pass. Resolution 6.1 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $33,720,500 for Employee Benefits and Other Payments for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1996. CANADA-MANITOBA ENABLING VOTE Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set ofEstimates to be considered by this

section of the Committee of Supply are the Estimates for the Canada Manitoba Enabling Vote on page 143 ofthe Estimates book. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement? Bon. Eric Stefanson (Minister ofFinance): No, I do not, Mr. Chairman.

2404 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the member. 1. Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote (

a) Partnership Agreement in Tourism

(1) Operating $29,700-pass;

(2) Capital $226,200-p ass. (

b) Winn ipeg Development Agreement

(1) Operating $1, 500,000- pass;

(2) Capital $1, 500,000-pass. (

c) Agreement on Agric ultural Sustainability

(1) Operating $38 9,000-p ass;

(2) Capital $66,000-pass. (

d) Partners hip Agreemen t on Municipal Water Infrastructure - Capital $825 ,000-pass. (

e) Communications Technology Research and industry Development Agreement - Operating $257 ,500- pass. (

f) General Agreement on the Promotion of Official Languages - Operating $200,000-pass. Resolution 26. 1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,993,400 for Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day of March, 1996. This concludes the Estimates for the Canada Manitoba Enabling Vote. OTHER APPROPRIATIONS Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities Mr.

Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next Estimates to be considered are the Estimates for Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Pro vincial Entities on page 145 of the Estimates book. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Min ister charged with the administration of The Crown Corporations Public Review and Accountability Act): No, I do not. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): No. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: We thank the member. Item 1. $1 ,000,000. Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. No. Item 2. Al lowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities $875,000-pass. I should clarify that 1. Aboriginal Justice Initiatives was not passed. Resolution 27.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $875,000 for Other Appropria tions, Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporati ons and Other Provi ncial Entities, for the fiscal year ending the 31 st day ofMarch, 1996.

This concludes the Estimates for Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Enti ties. Allowance fo r Salary Accruals Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set of Estimates to be considered are the Estimates for Allowance for Salary Accruals on page 14 5 of the Estimates book. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement?

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2405 Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): No, I do Workforce Adjustment $4,000,000-pass; (

b) General not. Salary Increases-pass; Less: Allocated to Departments Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the member. Item 3. Allowance for Salary Accruals $300,000 -pass. Resolution 27.3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $300,000 for Other Appropria tions, Allowance for Salary Accruals, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1996. This concludes the Estimates for Allowance for Salary Accruals.

Internal Ref orm, Workf orce Adjustment and General Salary Increases Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set of Estimates to be considered are the Estimates for Internal Reform, Wor kforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases on page 146 of the Estimates book. Does the minister res ponsible have an opening statement? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): No, I do not, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): No. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the member. Item 6.

Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases (

a) Internal Reform and -pass. Resolution 27.6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,000,000 for Other Appropriations, Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 1996. This concludes the Estimates for Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases. LOTTERIES FUNDED APPROPRIATIONS Urban Economic Development Initiatives Mr.

Deputy Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next set of Estimates to be considered are the Estimates for Urban Economic Development Initiatives on page 146 of the Estimates book. Does the minister responsible have an opening statement? Hon. Eric Stef anson (Minister of Finance): No, I do not, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: We thank the minister. * (1 600) Does the critic for the official opposition have an opening statement? Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): I just want to ind icate I have a number of questions rela ting to line 27(f), so we can probably pass the other items and then I can raise the questions at that point. An Honourable Member: That is where we are right now. Mr. Ashton: I would like to ask the minis ter, what portion of this particular line is being allocated for the Winnipeg Jets and for the construc tion of the new arena?

2406 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Chairman, for the current fiscal year 1995-96, the allocation that was provided from this account to cover losses of the Winnipeg Jets is $1, 891, 304 to date. Now, that was with the expectation of covering losses for approximately three months, the period April, May and June of 1995, depending on what happens with the Spirit of Manitoba. If this new agreement is concluded on August 15 , there will be the requirement to fund our share of the losses for another month and a half. That amount has not been quantified as of yet.

We are currently in the process of determining precisely what that amount might be, and again at this stage, there is the capacity to cover that additional requirement from within this allocation. I would be more than pleased to provide the member with what has been allocated to date out of the $1 2,500,000, so he would have a sense that there still is capacity to cover that additional month and a half share of losses that the province is respons ible for. Mr. Ashton: In addition to the $1.89 million that has been allocated for the losses, is there any allocation in this particular

section for the construction of the new arena? Mr. Stef anson: At this stage, no, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ashton: Where will the allocation for the construction of the new arena take place? Specifically, where will the government be finding the $37.5 million, or whatever its latest figure is, that it has committed? The minister can correct me on the exact amount of the commitment, but where will that be coming from if it is not from this particular line? Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Chairman, at this stage, as the member knows, the commitment, if a new facility is built, is $37 million from the prov incial government.

We do have the ability to allocate that over three budget years, in '95-96, '96-97 and '97-98, because of the building being ready for occupancy in the fall of 1997. Therefore, for this budget year, based on discussions we have had with the federal government, if the facility does proceed, we will have the ability to direct approximately $1 1 million from the infrastructure agreement, from the proj ect, that being the provincial share that was basically originally allocated for the Kenaston underp ass.

I think, as the member knows, the federal Liberal government has indicated they are prepared to support the facility with what they outlined as $20 million, and they have suggested that they would be looking to fund their share of approximately the major ity of the $15 milli on from within the infrastructure agreement, as well, so that allocation will be the vast majority of what is required for this budget year. If there is any additional requirement beyond that, we would be looking at what sources of funding we would use to provide that additional funding. Mr.

Ashton: Yes, has that already been included in the infrastructure line that we will be dealing with presumably just in a few minutes, or would that $11 milli on be found in some other way, shape or form? Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Chairperson, it is basically already included because when we prepared our budget, we prepared our budget on the basis of the original terms of the infrastructure agreement. If the member recal ls, the original terms, I believe, were in the first year, which was last year.

In 1994-95, we were to spend 35 percent of the total infrastructure program ; in 1995-96, to spend 50 percent, and the most that could be spilled over to year three of the infrastructure program was 15 percent of the program . In the most recent federal budget, the current federal government changed that.

They turned a three-year program into a five-year program, but having said that, when we provided our budget, we provided 50 percent of our requirement for the entire infrastructure agreement, and that was at the stage with the expectation that Kenaston might still be going forward and/or there would be other proj ects to provide funding for to meet the terms of the original infrastructure program.

June 22, 1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2407 When we get to that line item, you will see that we have budgeted $34,200,000 on the infrastructure program. That is basically 50 percent of our original commitment under the entire program, which was approximately $68 million. So it is a long way of saying yes to the member's question, that the amount is effectively budgeted for in our infrastru cture allocation this year. Mr. Ashton: So the short answer then is that $1 1 million out of the $34,200,000 will be this year' s allocation for the Winnipeg arena. Mr. Stef anson: Mr.

Chairman, yes, if a facility is determi ned to be built, we have the capacity to provide $1 1 million from within the infrastructure agreement. Depending on construction time lines, requirements and so on, there might be the need for us to provide some additional support, but that would be determined as we would move forward with actually building the facility, but we do have $11 million available in the infrastructure line, which is just under one-third of the capital cost requirements of the provincial contribution of$37 million. Mr.

Ashton: So we have identi fied $1 .89 million for losses for the Winnipeg Jets under Urban Economic Initiatives and $1 1 million out of the $34-million infrastructure allocation. Are there any other areas under which either the losses or the construction of the new arena would be funded in this year's budget? Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Chairman, the answer is no, certainly not at this time.

That does not preclude any discussions that might take place either with the City of Winnipeg or with the federal government or any requirements that might arise in terms of, as I say, the scheduling and the cash flow requirements and so on, but at this point in time, the answer is no. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Chairperson, I think our position is very clear on this.

We have stated our opposition to the loss agreement, and we are seeing again in this year, at a time when times are tough, that we are looking at a $1. 89-million allocation out of this particular line item for the losses of the Jets, and we are looking at a further $11 million that would come out of this year' s budget from infrastructure, which we feel is absolutely wrong. The government itself promised in the election it would allocate no more than $_1 0 million. In fact, it is breaking that promise in this year alone, and once we deal with the next line item that will effectively have been dealt with.

We will be seeing the government break in one year alone its election promise in terms of that. We are seeing the continuing saga of the people of Manitoba paying under this line item for $1 .8, 9- million worth of losses of the Winnipeg Jets, not the first time the losses have been covered. We will see in terms of the negotiations over the next number of weeks where this will proceed from here. I say to the minister that this government does not have the support of the people of Manitoba for what it is doing. It said one thing in the election and it is doing another thing today, and that just will not wash.

Quite frank ly, this Conserva tive Party may have won the election on April 25, but I think it lost a lot of its integrity, what integrity it had left, on a number of issues, including the Winnipeg Jets. * (1610 ) In fact, for that reason I move that line 27(

f) Urban Economic Initiatives be reduced by $1, 89 1, 304 that is allocated for Winnipeg Jets operating losses. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: It has been moved by the honourable member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), seconded by the honoura ble member for Wellin gton (Ms. Barr ett), that line 27.7 Urban Economic Initiatives be reduced by $1, 89 1 ,304, that is allocated for Winnipeg Jets operating losses. Is there any debate on the motion? Mr. Stef anson: Mr. Chairman, I obviously disagree with almost everything that the member for Thompson said. I do not think that comes as any surprise to anybody around this table. The member is moving a motion to delete the funding of the provincial share of

2408 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 22, 1995 Jets losses fo r this next quarter of just over $1.8 million. I do want to remind the honourable member that even under this interim agreement by the end of June of this year we will have funded losses from the provincial government of between $9 million and $10 million, but over that same period of time in terms of direct revenue to the Treasury of the government of Manitoba, direct taxation revenue that has come into our Treasury is in excess of $17 million.

So even funding those losses, there has been a net benefit to our Treasury of approximately $8 million that would not have been here had we not entered the agreement back in 1991 and the team had been able to sell and relocate. Part of the idea of the interim agreement was to allow Manitobans to make a decision, a long-term decision whether or not prof essional hockey could remain here in our city and in our province to give private individuals, the private sector to come fo rward to find a solution and to put fo rward a contribution to keep the team here in Manitoba.

That is happening with the off er that has been put fo rward by the Spirit of Manitoba and accepted by the current owners of the Winnipeg Jets Hockey Club. But in terms of the economics of this interim agreement, to date there has been $8 million of additional revenue to the Treasury of our government. There is a $50-million economic impact by having the Jets here in Manitoba. They directly and indirectly created between 1,000 and 1,400 jobs.

If a new arena is built in our province, during construction there will be 2,000 jobs created and just during the construction alone there would be $10 million of direct taxes to the provincial government. The fe deral government, during construction, would receive $20 million of direct taxes. So the interim agreement has allowed us to get to the stage of determining whether or not there is a long-term solution. There has been a net gain to our Treasury of approximately $8 million, and I would hope that everybody opposes this motion put fo rward by the member fo r Thompson (Mr.

Ashton), because it is just absolutely the inappropriate and incorrect thing to do. Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Chair, I move that the question be put. Point of Order Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson, I have indicated to the Chair that I, too, would like to speak, and I would hope that the member fo r Wellington is not trying to limit my ability to at least comment on this very important issue. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member fo r Inkster does not have a point of order. Mr.

Ashton: Ifl can be of assis tance, we would have no problem in putting the motion after the member fo r Inkster being allowed to speak. You will probably have to do it by leave since there is a motion on the floor, but we certainly- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable member fo r Wellington withdraws it fo r now. She will have to reput it. The honourable member fo r Wellington is then def erring the vote until after the member fo r Inkster has spoken. The honourable member fo r Wellington is def erring moving that the question be put. *** Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Chairperson, I am not attempting to try to hide anything. I have a number of questions that I would like to pose to the minister with regard to that. I understand that it has been def erred. That is not going to limit my ability to ask questions, is that correct, Mr. Chairperson? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: What? Mr. Lamoureux: The deferment that is being suggested is not going to limit my number of questions. I have a series of questions that I would like to ask. Is that corre

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-1-23
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 1st hansardpdf 23.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4d372f77fd6aeabee122f15f0a8ed03217f2f2c0

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