PRELH1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEHBLY FOR THE PERIOD 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, MAY 13, 1977

May 13, 1977 Tape 2674 PK - 1 The House met at 10;00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! I would like to welcome to the House of Assembly eighteen students on an Exchange Programme; nine are Grade IX students from St. Edward's Elementary School in Petty Harbour, and the other nine from Notre Dame Academy in Labrador City, Grade VII and VIII, They are accompanied by their teachers Mr. Paul Dwyer and Miss Marchetta Mooney. I know hon. members join me in welcoming these students and their teachers to the House. -. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTER MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Tourism. MR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I wish to inform the House of the existing situation with reference to the snowshoe hares, or rabbits as they are ffiore commonly known, obtained in the Long Harbour area and sent to Guelph, Ontario for chemical analysis. The results of the test on the specimen has been made available to the government. The analyses indicate a relatively high level of fluoride in the bones tested. Although we cannot draw conclusions from this one sample, all existing data has been thoroughly assessed by the Department of Tourism, Health and Consumer Affairs arid En vi ronmen t.

My colleague in the Department of Consumer Affairs and Environment has assured me that his Division of Environment in co-operation with Environment Canada has been actively following the progress of ERCO 's Fluo.ride Emmission Abatement Programme. Extensive surveys for fluoride content of air, vegetation and water have been carried out annually since 1973 and are ongoing at this time. Additionally, the results of a monitoring programme carried out by ERCO are reviet.red monthly.

The pollution control programme has met with some success with anticipated compliance to Provincial standards by late 1978~ providing the present improvement trend is continued.

May 13, 1977 Mr. Hickey: Tape 2674 PK - 2 I have been advised by my colleague in the Department of Health that for the past five years, the Medical Department of ERCO Industries, Long Harbour, have been carrying out medical surveillance of workers in the plant. This medical surveillance includes an annual physical examination, blood and urine tests, lung function tests and chest x-ray. No adverse health effects attributable to fluoride have been uncovered amongst the workers.

Health officials are firmly of the opinion that any possible adverse health effects resulting from the operation of the plant would be evident amongst workers many years before effects could be experienced amongst persons living in communities in the neighbourhood of the plant. I have also been advised tat the detailed studies carried out by the Ontario Government of Health in the vicinity of the ERCO plant at Port Maitland, Ontario, where vegetation damage was evident, failed to uncover any adverse health effects amongst the human population.

The Port Maitland Air Flouride concentration which prompted this commission's enquiry were higher than tested in the Long Harbour at the present time. Although increased concentrations of flouride have been noted in leafy vegetation and in blueberry growth in the Long Harbour area, health officials are of the opinion that their consumption is not hazardous to health. I would like to stree that additional samples of wildlife have been collected by my Wildlife Division and forwarded to Guelph for analyses.

The data on the specimens should be available in two weeks and my Wildlife Division will be contacting top flouride experts in North America to ensure that the

interpretation of the results are thorough and precise. The matter has been discussed with officials of the ERCO plant and they are fully aware of the investigations being carried out and are assisting in every way possible to ensure that the results of these investigations are complete.

May 13, 1977 Tape 26 74 PK - 3 Mr. Hi.ckey: Although,as I have stated, at the present time there does not appear to be a haalth hazard, I will assure this hon. House that we will utilize the best expertise available on flouride research so that the results obtained will l .eave no doubt in anybody's mine. We wi.ll also request the appropriate Federal Gove~nt Departments to assist in the

'May 13, 1977 Tape no. 2675 Pa~e 1 - ms investigations. An attempt r-7ill be ~ade to engare a proninent . . institution to co-ordinate all facets of the investigation, and present a comprehensive and complete report to govern~ent. I rrill report back to the House on the subject as soon as additional information becones available. The han. Leader of the Opposition. ~·'P • ROBEP.TS : tfr.

Speaker, I think first of all I should say that I am very pleased the !"!inister has made a staterr.ent. ~.J'ithin the past fe~7 c1ays a number of us on this side have been hearing reports and rumours and, you knoH, the ru1r1_ours of a thousand tongues with respect to the Long Harbour situation, the fluoride in the rabbits, and I think it is good that the minister has made "toJhat seems to be, Fhat I consider listening to him, what I consicer to be a full and a cor.1plete statement. I think that is by far the best way to deal with this situation.

The TN"orse thing that could happen is to allow a rumour to spread or to allmv, you knm.;, Clangerous talk. And as the minister would agree,it does get about. For example, some of his officials yesterday !'let ~;,Jith people from Long Barbour, ~,rith representatives of the plant. I had at least three calls within an hour saying - you know, that type of ·thing so there is very widespread public interest. So that is the first point, Sir. I think the minister has done the rjght thing, and I hope he will continue to do,as he has undertal(en to do,to make regul2.r, full and conplete statements to t~e Rouse.

Secondly, Sir, the news is disturbin?., because of the fact that it has nmv been confirmed that there is fJ.uoride present in the boDes of some of these rabbits that have been caught iP the area, and that have }.,een sent iDto t!:ce zoverniT'ent officials and in tl!rn have ~een sent fon:an! for analysis. That in itself is disturb in.!!, although there is ohviously soJ'1_e consolation in the fact that it appears from ~,rh;e.t the rrinistet" 1-trrs t0ld US anc baser on '-'hat he has

}'ay 13, 1977 '!'ape no. 2675 Page 2 - ns ?'r. Poberts. ~een told by the advisors with ~~o~ he has been in touch that the presence of the fluoride in the rabbits does not in itself indicate a health hazard, and that is comforting. But still, you know, r.7e are all concerned 7 we must be concerned ahout the. fact that the fluoride is there.

It is - I Pas going to say it is tragic, but that may be much too strong a word, but it is most unfortunate that this should happen at this tiMe just -.;.:hen it seemed as if the problems of the ERCO plant at Long Earbour hac been resolved. '!'here vas a big celebration: the !"finister of Industrial Development was there, the gentleman fro!!!. Placentia district ~·7as there - ~vhat? - within the last month, l~r. John Crosbie - ;m • CAL L.AN : I ~ms there. :'P. POBEI'TS : I a!T'. sorry. ~'y friend and colleague from Bellevue Olr.

Callan) starred at the - by far the r.>.ost popular politician at the function I nnderstand. And there Fas this great celebration of a million accident free hours and, you know, the morale of the plant has come up and the feeling, I understand among both management and men is that the plant after a lot of hard slogging and a lot of ups and do~-ns and a lot of heartbreak, and a lot of -.;.mrk and a lot of difficulty has turned the corner. Hell, I hope that nothing in this information that the minister has nm·7 put before the Fouse changes that.

I do not see anything that should, but I think it is a point ~vith ~·rhich we must all be concerned, because -o;-Je would be concerned -,.Tith an industry at any time, but particularly in this Province today, an industry that is providing directly - what? - 500 or 600 jobs and ,,~ell-paid, and good jobs. ••1ith all the ramifications and spin-off jobs, that is sorrething that Fe ought to encoura~e hv any proper IT'eans. l"l!.

Speaker, I think it is verv iTI'.portant to underline w-hat the IT!inister has said, that the-r-e is absolutely no evidence of any dai!IClge to hu!"an healtb. 1 or any other ca:mage as I uncertood the minister - 1:-.e is noddiPg acquiescence - // any other C.a!T'aze of any •

'-'ay 13, 19 77 '!'ape no . 2675 Page 3 - ms ' 1r. ~ .. oberts . kind of ve getation or of any other type of fluoride present excent in the bones of these anil"'als, the preliminary reports that to:oe have . ~i ell, Sir, that is really all t.;e can say at this pojnt. I think ~.re are all concerned. We IT!ust be concerned.

I would urge the minister to car1:y on ~o1ith full and complete and prompt reports, because the one thing that really would cause even more trouble than t·:rhateve r, if any we ~y have to face, is rt~our and the report of a thousand tongues in the phrase, because there is widespread interest, and unless people are given the truth, the danger is that untruths and half-truths will certainly get aro~md, and that is t•ta t ~"ill do the c:l. ama~e.

But, Sir, we •·Till all ~vatch with great an-~iety, 2nd HHh great concern, and hope that the results .of a further test shot-i that there is no threat either to human life or to the other forms of life in the area, be they animal life or be they vegetation . It is a matte r of disturoin~ concern, Sir, and as I say it is rr.ost unfortunate that it should come now w+.en it seems if at long last the EP.CO plant had afte r a long struggle, after very difficult birth pangs , and very difficult for the first fet.; years, had turned the corner and was en the way to becoming a

~ · fay 13, 1977 Tape ~o. 2676 N'1 -1 "f~. P.OBERTS: valuable and a very viable 'industry, Let us hope nothing happens to change that and let us hope that the minister's further studies and his further enquiries shm.r that the concern is not more than concern that nothing further is ~.rarranted. That certainly is our strong hope, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: ~. HICKEY: 000 The han Minister of Tourism, Before we go to that I have another statement I would like to read. MR. • SPEAID:R : 't-ffi., ROHE: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: Do we have leave to revert to statements? Agreed. Agreed. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Provincial Parks season for 1977 starts on Sunday, ~~y 15. All parks are scheduled for opening; any delays will be attributed to poor road or local conditions caused by harsh weather especially in parks in the more Northerly regions of the Province, 49 parks will be in use this Summer with some 1900 campsites and 1600 picnic sites. In addition some 16 public beaches will be ready for us, including the new public beaches developed at ~iddle Cove and Topsail Beach in 1976.

In addition to the two new public beaches the 1976 season saw the completion of construction on a day-use and camping park at Little River Pond, Bay d'Espoir. Additional campsites were also developed in Barachois Pond and Butter Pot Parks. The bulk of money this year will be thrust into the development of more campsites within present parks because of the intense use our provincial par!cs have been receiving, The only change in the fee structure from 1976 is an increase in the Seasonal Vehicle Entry Permit from $2.00 to S3. 00.

The Daily Vehicle Entry Permit of $1.00 ar..d the Camping Permit of $2.50 per night remain unchan ged

May 13, 1977 Tape ~To. 2676 NM- 2 '-'lR. HICKEY: ~r. Speaker, I 'lvish to remind the public that park regulations require that the necessary permits must be purchased before a vehicle enters a provincial par~. A one-day camping permit system will be in effect for the 1977 camping season. Previous years saw the use of camping permits v1hich could be issued for any length of time up to ten consecutive days. This year, ~!r. Speaker, a camper will be required to purchase a camping nermit each and every day he remains in the park.

A day is considered to end by 3 P.M. of the following day from when the permit was issued. The reasons for this change are as follmvs: (1) 'To ensure all camping units in the park are registered and have the required permit due to increase in checking by the park staff~

(2) To reduce and if possible eliminate the practice of reserving campsites by leavin~ unoccupied campin~ equipment on a site·, and (3) ~o streamline and simplify procedures in issuing and recording permits. It is anticipated that 1977 will be another record year of operation for the Parks Division. Tne 1976 operating season saw the park use increase to approximately three million visitors and one-half million campers.

We anticipate a great increase during 1977, especially due to the holding of the Summer Games in this Province, to an estimated three and one- half million visitors and six hundred thousand campers. I '1·70uld emphasize the need for caution by park users when using open fires anc remind the nublic that the r:J.a.··dmum length of stay in any one Provincial Park is ten consecutive days.

~ay 13, 19 77 Tape ~ o. 2676 '·fR . SPEA..'t\.ER: The hon . T!!emher for ~·1inc!.sor - Buchans . ~R .. FLIGET: :!r . Speaker, there is not much one can say in reply to a ministerial statement of that nature, The minister covered enough things there in that statement that would,I suppose,coulci take a day to debate. I notice that he suggested that they ~.rere going to change the system of registering for ten consecutive days to now a person has got to register every day. It comes right off the top of my mi.nd, ~1r.

Speaker, that there are a_ lot of people who register at provincial parks for ten days and uses the park as a branching out area and they leave the park and take their families, any given park,and maybe they are gone for two days touring the surrounding countryside. Now what happens in that situation? I do not see the logic,personally, I do not see the logic in once a tourist, whether ~"H - 3

~·1ay 13,1977 Tape 2677 AH-1 :-rn.. FLIGHT: it be domestic nor non-resident tourists, registers at one of our provircial IJarks, and he registers and pays his fees for ten daysji do not see the necessity at all of having ·· that person - AN Hal{. HENBER: (Inaudible) }~. FLIGHT: What you are saying is that the person has .to stay in the park three days. He cannot take an overnight trip to some surrounding countryside. That does not make sense. Well MR. HICKEY: He has to register. 'HR. FLIGHT: Well how does he register if he is not t3ere -. to register? MR.

HICKEY: He registers before he goes if he is taking a overnight trip. HR. FLIGHT: Suppose he takes t>vo, two - MR. HICKEY: He can register \vhen he comes back. HR. FLIGHT: ~lr. Speaker, again all i can say here that that particular situation, that particular regulation does not make • sense and will cause more problems for people using parks than it is going to solve. If .,.,e have efficient park 1.-.rardens then certainly the excuse used for forcing any person to register is to make sure that the park sites are all utilized and that no trailer is left on parks unoccupied holding over space.

If 1...re have an efficient park attendant situation this would not happen. I spent Heeks and weeks and days and days in the park and my trailer was checked every day, So 1..;here is the possibility, where is the possibility of somebody either going over their ten days or leaving empty trailers? But ho~.vever, that - I would call the minister attention to that, that could very well cause a lot of hardships and a lot of inconvenience for a lot of people and I t·rould suggest t:1at the minister •<Jould take another look at it. / /

~iay 13,19 77 Tape 2677 AH-2 '·ffi.. FLIGHT: I notice the minister did not mention at all a...TJ.y improved secnri ty in the parks ,and I would remind the minister - as a matter of fact He have had debates in this House that over the past couple of years the parks have become if nof unsafe very - there is no longer any pri vat::y, :·rr. Speaker. ~ey are using tae parks for allnight parties, drink-ins and there is a complete lack in some parks of security in the campsites, a complete lack, ~·lr. Speaker.

I am aware of situations ~¥here guests at the parks themselves has to take the situation in their own hands and go to parking lots a..."'ld suggest that either this type of thing stop or they themselves would take the law into their hands. :HR.· HICKEY : The best OFeration in the country. HR. FLIGHT: The best operation in the count~]? I would say that it may be the best operation in . the Department of Tourism,which does not say a lot for anything in the Department of Tourism. Al.'l" RON MB1BER: w'hat about the one up on - MR. SPEAKER: Order please!

I have to draw to the hon. gentlemen's attention that he may not debate issues under l-Iinisterial Statements. rfR. FLIGHT: So Hr. Speaker, that is about all that I would have to say. We are going to take that Hinisterial Statement and take it apart and I <;.;ould suggest that there will be some pretty sincere questions arising from that particular statement. ~'IR. ROBERTS: Taking the minister apart as weil"l•..Te hope, as the statement .-

Hay 13,1977 Tape 2677 AH-3 PRESENTWG REPORTS BY STA::iDE~G A:.\lD SPECIAL C07''l1ITTEES i·lll. SPE.A .. KER : The han roinister. ~IR. 210RGAli!: ~-1r. Speaker, I ask leave of the House to table the findings of a study carried out by the four Atlantic Provinces and the Federal Government in a co~~ined study on the movement of passengers in the Atlantic Region. The finding of this report is now being tabled as of yesterday afternoon in all the .\ssemblies in the Atlantic Region and forwarded to the Canadian Transportation Commission. MR.. SPEAKER: Ron. Minister of ~~nes and Energy. -. }'IR.. PECKFORD : Yes, Hr.

Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the ~ewfoundland Hydro for the year 1976, a copy of which is availabl~ for each han. member. MR.. ROBERTS : A pretty expensive looking report! ORAL QUESTIG:-JS }ill.. SPEAKER; The hon. Leader of the Opposition .. MR. ROBERTS : A question for the Premier, Sir, and it arises out of an editorial in this mornings issue of the Daily News I do not knm.; if this is "Be :Nice To Daily N e~vs Heek 11 • The gentleman from St. John's East proved once again last night that politics c.ake strange bed fellows with he and Hr.

Callahan, the editor of the News~agreeing on something.But I >:vould like to ask the Premier about a suggestion made in this editorial thati think has sane merit, An4 I assume the Premier is familiar ~vith the editorial. If not,if it is in order,I will read the appropriate paragraph.

It is quite near the end,it is the conclusion of the editorial. 11 There is a proposal for a form of combined management under a joint consultativecommittee 1 : and of course this refers to the Linerboard mill, ' 1 let it happen nmv ~ T:.1ere is a prospect DREE would look favourably on the capital improvement and perhaps even at uorking capital assistance . Let us have a

May 13, 1977, Tape 2678, Page 1 -- apb HR. ROBERTS: positive~well-structured request, not a hat-in-hand plea to bail us out." It continues, "~ve have had enough talk inside the House of Assembly and out, let us now have action while there is time." The question, Sir, is this: Is the Premier or the Government, the Premier speaking for the government, prepared to entertain this suggestion with a view to implementing it? I must say it seems to me to have a great deal of merit. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, as the debate on the Linerboard is presently before the House, and hopefully to answer that question, and because there are many parts to -the same question, really, because you are talking about the whole problem at Stephenville, it would take much longer to answer it properly than could be possibly done in the Question Period. So later on this morning, hopefully, if I get an opportunity to speak, I will gladly be referring to that! not just that specific suggestion, but a great many aspects as they apply to the Linerboard. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. HR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to give the Minister of Fisheries an opportunity to make a political speech, but I did give the minister notice yesterday that I would ask the minister a question arising out of an

article in yesterday's Telegram quoting Mr. Paul Russell, the President of Bonavista Cold Storage, as saying that the fishery is termed a welfare tool. ~tr. Russell expressed pessimism about the fishery. He said we piddled away money like crazy on the industry and now we are going to make money out of our fishing. He expressed no future at all for the fishery, just described it as a welfare tool. ~hat does the minister think of this?

Hay 13, 1977, Tape 2678, Page 2 -- apb AN HON. HEHBER: What do you figure - HR. NEARY: I do not think that should be allowed to stand on the public record, Sir, this sort of nonsense. DR. FARRELL: He owns more money than the rest of the country combined. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I probably should not dignify that statement by Mr. Russell by replying to the question by my colleague, but it is important and I probably should make reference to it.

Certainly I think his statement is not worthy of a man who has amassed quite a lot of money in the fishery on the sweat of a lot of our fishermen and plant workers, and I think he should have more respect for those people.- DR. FARRELL: And free government money. MR. W. CARTER: If the statements attributed to Mr. Russell are correct, and I have no reason to believe they are not, then I think that he does mve the people who work for him an apology. I should point out that it is because of Mr.

Russell and people with such attitudes that the government must become involved in the fishing industry, and that is why, not that we want to, but certainly in light of certain attitudes, especially those of Mr. Russell, we have no choice. My only reaction is that if Mr. Russell has such little faith in the industry, in our fellow Newfoundlanders, if he does not like the government, if he does not like me, well then, he can get out. I think the industry will survive without him.

Indeed, I am of the opinion that at this point in time in our history, when we are trying to build up the fishery and to instill confidence in our people, that we can very well do without men of Hr. Russell's attitude. SOH.E HON. ME!-1BERS : Hear, hear!

May 13, 1977, Tape 2678, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing arising out of the Henley Commission Report. I was unable to see all of his appearance on the television last night because of the fact the House, of course, sat late. The minister ~ay have dealt with the question there; if so I am not aware of it, or I would not have asked the question.

Could the minister tell us whether the government have adopted a policy, and if so what is that policy, with respect to the Henley Commission recommendations,not those that deal with the question of level 1, or the region-wide government, but the more local level, the question of expanding St. John's, amalgamating a number of the municipalities and unincorporated areas outside St. John's into new urban or suburban communities? Cou2d the minister tell us if the government have adopted a policy with respect to those recommendations and if so, what is that policy? ~m.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HR. DINN: No, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is talking about the exapnded city - MR. ROBERTS: The expanded city and the - I do not know what name you put on them - the - MR. DINN: MR. ROBERTS: areas, right. ?1R. DINN: Amalgamations? The analgamations in the other ~e have had ongoing discussions with most of the areas that - MR. ROBERTS: ~·!R. DINN: He are familiar ~1i th those. - Mr . Henley recommends 'N'i th respect to incorporation. We have not made a decision.

.!ay 13, 1977, Tape 267 8, Page 4 apb MR. DIN-1: We have some boundaries set out for different incorporations; Portugal cove, is one that comes to mind. Tentati~rely, right nm.;, ttTe h ave a boundary for Middle Cove, Outer Cove, Logy Bay ~~at we are discussing. There are some discrepancies in there. Hogan's Pond: We have had discussions with Hogan's Pond, St. Phillips, St. Thomas. We cannot seem to get agreement there amongst the three that they should be amalgamated. MR. ROBERTS: should be amalgamated? MR. Dil'lli: Did the minister say they We have not gotten an agreement from the councils and committees ·. MR.

ROBERTS: I do .not think there will be agreement. St. Thomas voted against it the other night, did it not? AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker.

Yay 13, 1977 Tape no. 2679 Page 1 - IJ1S ~.f'P ~ . \ . DI~"'N: I have not finished yet. :'-'1' SPEAKE?: The hon. member for Findsor- :Suchans. ~1}'- . NEA?.Y: A supple!J1entary question. Y.P. P.OE:SP.TS : No, the minister has not finished. ~;p J.. ··- ·· . DINN: I have not finished) Sir. t--!R. SPEAYER: I had presumed the hon. -gentleman had completed his answer. Carry on. }fP .• DTI-TN: And St. Phillips are coming in today or were in yesterday, I guess, 1-1hile I -.;.;as out in Placentia, and they had some discussions with the department They want to set up a boundary themselves.

He have not lookec at that, for example. Foxtrap, Seal Cove and Lawrence Pond, we have had no adverse reaction from these people with respect to not becoming part of Conception Bay South. And if we do not get a reaction from the people, and there is not an uprising. - certainly T'e do not t-Tant to start another Foxtrap - ~. NEARY: (Inaudible) . Mp. DI1"'N: You know, ~ve would get on 'l<lith some of those things. But there is no policy as yet. ~f'P .• P.OBEPTS: A supplementary. ~~. SPEAKER: A supplementary by the original questioner. PP PfJBEPTS: Hell, I }1ave a number, but let me start 1,;i.th this one, Sir.

The minister said that there has been no uprising -he was, I think, attempting to say that we do not ~.;ant a second Battle of Foxtrap. \.J'e all very heartily concur 1vith that position, Sir. Can the minister tell us r,.mether the government are going to adopt any concerted or any co-ordinated or any planned means of ascertaining public opinion in the area~ He have had ~·r. :Ienley, or the cc!"mission' s report, "r. Henley's -the co!Ili!lission ~Arhich Yr. !-'enley chairec.

A number of councils and citizens committees end the like have rrade representations, 1:-ut there are still an at-7ful lot of people H}o have not been heard fro!". ~~ether it is their choice or not, I do not kno w.

~'ay 13, 1977 Tape no. 2679 Page 2 - T'1.S ?~r. Poberts. 3ut can the minister tell us "t<rr_ether the government are going to adopt any other ~eans, plebiscites or one way that might come to it? There are others. But whether the government are going to sort of consult the people directly before any decisions are taken? }iR. SPEAKEP: ~1P .• DINN: The hon. minister. Pell, }fr. Speaker, I personally feel, and we have not adopted a policy on that, but if people are interested or not interested in becoming amalgamated "t-Tith other communities they should take the effort themselves to inform government.

On one side of the coin, you do not "tvant to put local governi!lent of any kind dm.m. peo:ole 1 s throats and force it upon them. On the other side of the coin')if they do not Hant loc?..l J.overnment, they should at least indicate • They have a report nmv .that says something. If they have an opinion one way or the other - and I have said this many times to the media, through the media to the people, Mr. Speaker- that if there are objections I would be delighted to receive them, and I have several hundreds to a particular aspect of the report, and v7e are taking those under consideration. ~T~.. ROBEP.TS : ~rp.

SPEAKER: !:-~-. ROBEP.TS : ~r. Speaker, a further supplementary. A. supplementary. I \·7ould like to deba~e the minister's ans.,.1er. Perhaps when we come to his esti!l'.ates, ~ve can, because the minister says people have the report. The report is several hundred pages, and I doubt if out of the fifty-one MHA's more than three or four have read the report. l'P_, DINN: It is a shame if they have not. ?'P. t'0BE"PTS : 'the minis te!" hc>.s. I have read most of it . "'Y collea~ue, I thint~, has gone through i_t, the gentleman fro!". I.e~·7isporte (Hr. \~~ite).

But I bet very fev of the rabinet have even read it, you know, but thet is debat~. and we ~ill come back to that.

}fay 13, 1977 Tape no. 26 79 Page 3 - JTI.S Yr. Roberts. ~fy question is, ~·!hen do the govern~nt expect to be in a posit:i.on to announce a policy? f,,Je ·have municipal elections co!!!ing up across the Provi~ce next November Are Fe gain~ to ha.ve neH municipal structures in the St. John's urban region - you knm.;r, the Henley Co!!'l'!ission region, whatever the correct name of it is - in place in time for elections in November? YR.. SPEP.JZER: The han. minister. YR. DDlli: r~r. Speaker, with respect to regional government l I would hope that 1;•7e would have - }'P_. POBEP.TS: That is level one, is it? ~"R.

DINN: No, it is not. I do not like to look at it as a tiererl operation. Right nO\Il',for example, }~etro Board is a municipality that does not affect the others. I Pould say that the regional government - HR. ROBERTS: The co-ordinating government, the overall Hater and se~"er - ~-· DINN: Hould co-ordinate the water and selver and garbage disposal, etc. ~rp. n_08EPTS: Yes. F.? .• DIYN: The regional governrr .ent I ~orould hope to have in nlace in ~Tove!!'ber in time for some sort of election. ~-'P. . :?OBE~TS : ~'P NEARY: ~·~.. SPEAT<.EP_: Pith all the local governments. A supplementary, l:'r. Speaker.

A supple!'1_entary, the han. [tentleman for LaPoile and then a supplementary by the hon. ~entleMan for r.onception Bay South. '~. Spea~er, I look unon the Eenley Peport as heing a lll'C1.ste of money, exrensive, ohnoxious and under!'ocrati c. Order, please! The hon , gentleman should pr0ceec to his onesticn. I ,.rant to Clsk the i'linister if the !Tlinister - •-rl:<:~. t choice ? the ninister :-.as t•·70 choices, either to appoint a regional ~overnr.,ent or

l'ay 13, 19 77 '!'ape no . 2679 ~~r . :reary . have each municipality a ppoL~t so~e b ocy from those elected on t~e tO\VD council or municipality to the re gional government . Not·• \•"hich course of action is t!le !l".inister going to take out of the tv:o? ~~ .• SPEA.KEP: '!'he hon . minjster. ~ffi . DINN : l.Jell firs t of all, ~~r. Speaker, ~.;e have to have something in place,as I have indicated before, tve have to have some't b.ing in place ·by July t o look after the r egional v~a ter system that -:ve have comin g on stream at that tine. '!:hat is •

May 13, 1977 Tape No. 2680 :-1JL D H·m : Bay Bulls Big Pond. So we have the ;'-fetro Board there that could do it 1 but if the decision is made between now and July,I would hope to have regional government in place. In that instance we would have to appoint a chairman and possibly four or five others to look after that system until November. 'MR.. NF....ARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would this not be taxation without representation?

Could not the minister follow the course of action of having the municipalities that are going to use this water recommend one of their members to serve on this board rather than the government arbitrarily making the apfointment ? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Hinister of Municipal Affairs. ;.,rn_ • D INN : Yes.

Well right now with respect to the regional system, which is one of the items that they would have responsibilitY for, that is total government funding right now,and we would hope that bf'tween July and November we would not want all these councils to appoint representatives and have a thirty man or so council to look after the region until the new elections.

If we are going to have it that way~then the new elections we will have a new council at that time~or new councillors in these areas and hopefully put them in place at that time, And ~•e have not made a decision yet as to whether it should be that v.ray or whether it should be direct election. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Conception Bay South, a supplementary. 'MR. NOLAN: Mr, Speaker, within the Henley Commission there is a recornr.J.endation on either the tier of government or ~,Jhatever you call it that there be appointed to the board some elected and I believe four appointed.

Hell now we have elections coming up municipally in

May 13, 1977 Tape No. 2680 NM- 2 '1R. NOU .. .N: ~Tovember and the question I have to ask is this, (1) has the minister,who I understand or the report reco1!1Illends he phase o~t the ~tro Board, is there an understanding between the minister and some memhers of the Metro Board that they will be appointed to this urban group;and the next item is, would the minister now agree that there be no appointments but that they too, or r.vhoever it is, including the chairman, run for election like everyone else? ~-· SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR.

DINN: The answer to question number one of course with respect to any agreement between the minister and members of Metro Board as to whether they will serve on a regional government there is no agreement, Hr. Speaker, an~ there >vill not be. As to whether one or two of them that may be appointed to that regional government, especially in the interim period~I have no way of knowing. I would say there is a possibility because they have the experience and expertise there. As I said to the hon, member for LaPoile C·fr.

Neary)- ,we have not decided on what ~.;ray we are going to eventually get at this regional council, whether it would be by direct election or whether it would be by appointments or elections within councils for representation. So I cannot answer all of the second part of your question. ~fR. NEA...~Y : A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: I recognize the hon. member. It will be the final supplementary at this time, then the hon. gentleman from Windsor-Buchans. ~ ...

W..ARY: 1ilould the minister not agree rather than have another bureaucracy set up by electing another laver of government, would the minister not agree that it >vould be far better to follow the "tvorld famous procedure that was laid down

May 13, 1977 Taoe No. 2680 ~. NE.A.-.'R.Y: twenty-t.;.;o years ago in the city of Toronto and that is set up a ~fetro Board and have members of the 'Metro Board appointed from various to~·m councils, with the minister appointing,say,a chairman for thre~ or four or five years and then after that period of time having him elected also 'vi thin the group that are appointed from the various town councils. V.Tould this not be the deomcratic Hay to do it? MR.. SPEAKER: MR. 'DINN: The hon. Minister of ~1uniciP?-l Affairs. Mr.

Speaker, the Toronto example is a very good example,by the way,and the hon. member knows of course ~- 3 that in the Toronto situation the chairman there was an appointed chairman. MR. NEARY: MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: MR. DINN: MR. NEARY: MR. DUTN: well there. At the beginning, but now he is elected. At the beginning, right. That is right. He is elected by the council now. At that may be the way it goes in the initial - It would be a good procedure to follmv, Certainly. Yes. Yes, It certainly has worked out MR.

SPEA...l{ER:, The han. member for ~-lindsor-Buchans, followed by the hon. member for Bellevue. }1R.. ROBERTS: Hardly very informative answers. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Hinister of Hunicipal Affairs as well. Hith regard to the incorporation of the incorporated town of Buchans under a board of trustees, ~.;auld the minister indicate to the House just what the board of trustees, what is the local government's status in that tmvn and what is the status of the board of trustees insofar as rendering any local government to the to~m of Buc.hans? i1R.

SPEA..TZER: The hon. '1inister of ~1uniciJ?al Affairs. ~. DDTN: ~r. Speake!:', with res-;1ect to 3uchans and the set U:? of a local imnrovement dist!:'ict and the board of trustees,

Hay 13,1977 Tape 2681 PK - 1 Hr. J. Dinn: we have a kind of an ongoing discussion right now between departmental officials and officials of ASARCO, Price and others to try to attempt to clear up some of the problems in the Buchans area. Until these problems are cleared up the Local Improvement District as a municipal body have not taken over a lot of the servicing of the town or anything like that, and I would not think they should until we get the difficulties that we have out there straightened out.

So there are ongoing discussions with the company and when those are settled then the Local Improvement Districts and the Board of Trustees can get on with the job. HR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. A supplementary. MR. FLIGHT: Would the minister indicate to the House,if he believes ·that the Town of Buchans will be in a position to have an election, a municipal election this Fall coming up, like the rest of the Province since, you know, the Board was appointed, and as a Board of Trustees, would the minister feel that Buchans could have its own municipal elections this Fall and elect its own Town Council?

MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Mr. Speaker, they certainly could, but I would not recommend that until we get the problems of the area straightened out with the company and find out what exactly their responsibilities of the company with respect to the town are and the problem of the houses straightened out etc. But I would not think we would go to an elected body until we get the problems straightened out. MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: One more supplementary, Mr. Speaker.­ All right,a supplementary. The minister have been referring to problems.

Would the minister indicate to the House specifically what these problems are that he is referring to? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DINN: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. The hon. member knows more about what the problems are in Buchans than I do, and I received a four page letter from him

May 13, 1977 Tape 2681 PK - 2 Mr. Dinn: indicating his concerns MR. FLIGHT: I kept quiet for four months too. MR. DINN: - with respect that. Mr. Speaker, there are many problems. There is the problem of the houses, there is ~he problem of what contribution the company will make to the town, what kind of a settlement we can get_them to agree upon there and so on. But until we get these things straightened out, and there are a list of them, we cannot allow the town just to take over all the serv~cing of it. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, my question is also for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Is the minister ~uare of the fact that the incinerator at Sunnyside is in a bad state of elisrepair? This incinerator, Mr. Speaker, incinerates garbage from Sunnyside, Come By Chance and Arnolds Cove, and it is in a bad state of disrepair. It costs approximately $1,500 or $1.600 to repair. The Council has no money, the newly elected Council has no money to do the job.

And • the newly elected Council have been informed that in two weeks they will not be allowed to incinerate garbage there because of the fire hazard which probably will be placed on in a couple of weeks. Is the minister aware of that problem? And what steps have been taken? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municpal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: First of all, I am not aware of the problem.

If they have sent in a request then it would have gone through the .finance committee of- the departmentX certainly did not see it this morning as ;a result of Tuesday's meeting, so I do not know if the request is even into the department. We put,as you understand?incinerators in these smaller communities, and we would hope that the community itself would look after these kinds of things, the upkeep and repair and maintenance and operation and so on of these things. AN HON. MEMBER: They have no money. MR.

DINN: If they have no money, and we can have a look at their financial statement to see how they are, whether they can afford it or not, then certainly we are prepared to assist if they cannot.

May 13, 1977 Tape 2681 PK- 3 MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. CALLA..~: Mr. Speaker, I am still on the subject of incinerators. Would the minister inform the House whether or not he intends to place an incinerator in the Chance Cove area. I brought this matter to the attention of the House last year, and the former ministe~, that there is an open pit garbage there which creates rats and everything else. Are , there plans to place an incinerator there at Chance Cove? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR.

DINN: We have no plans right now with regard to what is going on next year; we know what is required. MR. CALLAN: For this year? MR. DINN: Yes, for all these things, but we do not have the estimates through etc.,and we do not have a list of what is going to be done with respect to incinerators or incineration this year. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, again last year I tried to arrange between the Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Tourism and the Minister of Municipal Affairs to have garbage fro~ Jack's Pond Park, for example, carried to Sunnyside where there is an incinerator rather than bought to Chance Cove where there is no incinerator, and where rats are wandering through the community and so on. I am wondering can something be arranged all these lines this Summer? AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. DINN: Who is the question to? You remember all about it last year. Is that question to me? MR. CALLAN: Yes it is. MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. DINN: I do not know if it can be. arranged or not. It certainly was not discussed with me, but I will check with the other members - MR. CALLAN: No,the former minister.

May 13, 1977 Tape 2681 PK - 4 MR. DINN: I will check wt~h them and see, you know, if something can be done. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speake r, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS : A question for the Minister of Mines and Energy which grows out . of this immensely luxurious looking report by that immensely luxurious organization

~lay 13,1977 Tape 2682 AE-1 ~1R. ROBERTS: that fastens on our back like a leech, namely, ~~e,.;foundland and Labrador Hydro. ~1P.. :JOLAN : How ~ny -pictures of the minister? 1-1R. ROBERTS: ~o,there is no picture of the minister. There are seven coloured photographs of the vice-presidents dow~ there, t'vo of the chairman. However my question is t:,.is, Sir.

I have looked through the report and unlike any annual report that I have ever seen there is no indication in there of the salaries, if anytand other emoluments,if anyipaid to the officers and directors of the corporation. ~lovr this may not be required by law but it is certainly required by standard and accepted accounting principles. My question is this, Sir.

Can the minister explain \vhy this information is not there ,and secondly will the minister undertake to obtain and to lay on the table of the House at the earliest possible date a statement showing: One, . the salaries paid to the officers of the company and the term in Hhich that - in the sense in Hhich that tem· is used in reports of this; Secondly 1 the amounts paid to the directors of the company and showing in both cases the salaries and otber emoluments if any,including interest free loans, expense acconnts and anything else that may- t:ravel, cars and so forth that may have been provided for the officers and the directors.

Sir,as the representative of the shareholders we are entitled to this information. As I say~ I have never in my experience seen an annual report that does not have a

section in it noting that officers and shareholders receive the following amount of money. \..Jill the minister get that information for us please? ~IlL SPEAJ{ER: The han ~inister. 1IR. PECKFORD : I will take notice of the question, Mr. _Speaker. HR. SPEA ... T<ER: Han. member for Fogo folloHed by the han. g entler.~n for LaPoile.

I•lay 13,19 77 Tape 2682 AH-2 CAPT. \HNSOR: ~1r. Speaker, a question to the hon. ~1inister of Tourism. NoH that the sunny days are ap=;roaching and it is time to get the ~Jorma and Gladvs ready, SOHE RON HENBERS: Hear, hear~ CAPT. WI~SOR: I note that the vessel has been on dry-dock for several days now. Can the ninister tell the House whether the vessel is having some additional repairs or is she just going through an annual overhaul. ~·ffi.. SPEA..T(ER: Ron. minister. HR. HICKEY: Just an annual~erh~uT-Mr. Speaker.

The . , vessel was not inspected or \,;as not on dry-dock since its voyage and since it has returned home. .And ~ve are just getting her ready for whatever activity she MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) t<IR. HICKEY: Hr. Speaker, can I answer the question? I know the hon. gentleman cannot control himself there but if he ~vould just wait a second. -::fR. NEARY : I can control myself but - }!R.HICKEY: The hon. gentleman,if he wants to debate that when the estimates come he can certainly debate it, if he Hants to dig a hole for himself. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) HR. RICKEY: Hr.

Speaker, could I tell the hon gentleman the manners I was taught,"Please,be quite~ NR. SPE.AKER: Order,please! HR. HICKEY: Or I can tell him another Hay in his language, ~· Ir Speaker~ ~'Shut up! 11 while I answer the han. gentleman from Fogo. A point of order, ~- ~ r. Speaker. :::;:,. SPL\:ZER: A point of order.

~- lay 13,19 77 Tape 2682 A .. 1-l-3 HR.. :WL.Al·i : Hr . Speaker, are r.ve nor.v reached the point in the House where it is acceptable to tell another mem~er to shut-up? According to last night it 1:vas. ~.:R. NOU..N: I UJ.ean.,surely ~e can be made to '\·Jithdrar.v that remark, Hr . Speaker. HR.. ?:-IORGA..'\1 : Make vourvcolleague w,ithdr~~n~ 1~st night. ~1R. HICKEY: Yes, Nr. Speaker, to that point of order. I .lvould gladly withdraw that.But if an hen. gentleman does not understand the Queen's _E;nglish when it is put properly, then obviously sometimes you have to , someti.mes, Hr.

Speaker, you have to reluctantly go to the level of that hon. gentleman and tell him the language .' in the language that only he understands. C.APT. WINSOR: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I think the hnH.member for Fogo has a supplementary. CAPT. HINSOR: ~rr. Speaker~a supplement to that.Is the <vork being done by contract or is the - you know,just by the hourly and the expense envolved7 • ~- HICKEY: I will be gl_ad to get the information for the hon. gentleman.

All I can tell him in all honesty is that the boat is on dry-dock for an annual overhaUling - · it had not been done since the vessel returned and it is being made ready for ,.;hatever activity is planned for her this year. MR. NEARY: We finally got to admit it is since she came home. £.11R.. HICKEY: That is '\oJ'hat I said in the first place. Sunlight soap is good for cleaning·out ones ears. CAPT. HINSOR: Nr. Speaker. ~!R. SPE..A..KER: I think the bon. gentleman has another supplementary. CAPT.

HINSOR: i-.Thile the minister is at it, would he be good enough to get the cost of the r..;harfage, you know·, Hhile she has been tied uo at the C.N.R. premises during the winter ?

Hay 13,19 77 ~.!R . SPF.AKF~ • HR . RICKEY: Tape 2682 AP.- 4 The l1on. minister . Hr . Speaker, I can tell the h on, gentleman right now that there has been no cost for th~ vessel being tied up or wharfage f-ees or anything . The only expenditure during t he ~.;int er months and during the time that she was tied up 'lvas for electricity. HR . SPEA.."<ER: Hon . -member for LaPoile .

~fay 13, 1977 Tape no. 2683 Page 1 - !'lS P~ .• :mARY: ~'y question, Sir, is directed to the hon. Premier. Could I get t'1e hon. Premier's attention there for a T!J.Oment? Hould the hon. Premier nm·: care to ~ive up an updating on the rental of office space, because there is still all kin~s of office space being rented in various locations in St. John's~- Partitions are being put up and hauled do~m costing the taxpayers a fortune. Offices are being car~eted and renovated. Can the Premier tell us now r..1hat the government's position is on the future of office space? ~~. SPEA._~R: The hon. Premier.

PRE}-f"lEP NOORES: In general terms, ~~r. Speaker, the situation is that the group from - the federal government made available to do a study on what square footage is available and what efficiences are desired. They will have tbeir report finished, as I understanc:1. it - the ~ finister of Public Horks regarding the - is not here no-tv - as I understand it, ~vithin another ten days to tvo ~·leeks. As soon as that has been received, appropriate action will be taken. MP .• ~EARY: }"f"R. SPEJ..KER :rR • NEA~.Y: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary by the original questioner. l"ould the hon.

Premier indicate to the House whether the government - the han. Premier · - would follow a recoi!'li!'enrlation made by the Premier in this hon. House last year, last session, that an impartial committee of members representing both sides of the House will be set up to take a look at the office space problem for the govermr .ent? The hon. Premier. PRE}fiE~. ~100PES: No reason Hhy not, Yr. Speaker. Because of the controversy Has raised the last t i ne, that May be a 7-ood icea to do. But before rn.akin~ a final ciecision on that, Fe Hill \·Jait for t he report from the Department of Put lie \vorks.

Y:?. .• SPEJ...KER: The hon. member for Bellevue. ~·'r. Spe aker, my question is t o the Yinister of Tourism co~ing ou t of his ~inisterial statement rega r ~ing park openings. •...!. /

Yay 13, 1977 Tape no .. 26P.3 Paee 2 - !llS Could the minister tell the ~~ouse Hhether or not of the forty-nine parks that ~.Jill be i.'1 use this Sunner, is the Pipers Hole Park at Srdft Current among these forty-nine? }fP. SPE.~T(EP._: The hon. minister. ~-f?.. HICY..EY: I am sorry, l'~r. Speaker, I 'd.ll have to take question nnder advisei!!ent. I ~,rould assume it is, but I am not absolutely sure so I will have to check. MR.. CALLA!.~ : ~~. SPEAKER: YR • CALLlu"'if: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Yr.

Speaker, of these forty-nine parks, I ~·lander could the minister inform the House how . many have a dumping system such as you have, for e.xample, in the 0Ta.tion.al Park where you coi!!e out in your trailer, and you can, you knm,r, flush out your trailer, your holding tank on your trailer? Row rn.any of these provincial parks have that? It is long overdue. l'fP.. SP~A..T<.ER: }'J?. Hicr:EY: The han. minister. Again, :1'-fr. Speaker, this is the kind of detail I \crould have to check. All parks are not equipped ~dth dUI!'.ping stations as such. ~-· CALLAN: ]Ap._. HI CITY: They should be. I know.

I agree with TllY hon. friend they should be, and there should be additional ones across the Trans...Canaca, because this is very essential to try and keep the environment clean, and to this end ~v-e are ~·70rking • ~-· CALL/IN: A lot of people - PP. -g:ICKEY: T'.ather than give the hon. gentle!!'.an inaccurate informt'l t j_on, I \vould rather cll.eck and find out. ~~-· CALLAN: Fine, thank you.

The han. meT".ber for L8Pnile. ~'1? .• NE.APY: ''y question is for the ~inister of Justice, ~ir, arising out of a nui!'.ber of puc] -J c statements tha.t have been mace recently hy t~-,e r.t-def of Police, C";1:def Jo!cn Brm·me, contra.cicting stateiT:ents r2.c!e nrevionsly bv thE' 'finister of Just:i.ce concerning the

:'-'ay 13, 1977 Tape no. 2683 ~~r. ;;:)earv. increase in crime rate in this Province. Fould the mi.niBter care to coTTli!lent on some of these statements that have been made that the crime rate in this Province according to Chief John Brmme is rising, and the chief blames the illegal use of drugs for th.is increase in crill'e? Hould the TI'inister care to react to that statement? MR. SPEAKE'?.: '11R. HICK¥...AN: The hen. minister. I have tremedous confidence, ¥r.

Speaker, in Chief of Police Bro~~e as being one of Canada's outstanding Police Chiefs, and I never take issue with anything he says in his field, and I know he is doing an excellent job to curb the rise of crime in the area that comes under his jurisdiction; namely, the city of St. John's. And if one i.Jould take a look at the - particularly in the field of laF enforcement under the Eighmy Traffic Act, -yre should be eternally grateful for the tremendous job he is doing. SmfE RON. YE~'BEPS: Hear, hear! HR. NEAP.Y: YR.. SPE.AKE'P : M?c. NEARY: A supplementary auestion, ~r. Speaker. A supplementary.

TiJould the hon. ~~inister of Justice care to outline for the benefit of the Rouse any ideas or any plans that the minister may have put fonmrd or TI'.ay have to fight this increase in crime in this Province? ~'}'.. HIC'KJ'WT : time. ~-'!F.. NEA;'Y: vp. SPEJ'.KEP: I would be delighted to, ~r. Speaker, but not at this A supplementary question, ~:r. Speaker. A final suppleTientary. Fould the minister tell the !louse then Phat sort of drug squad thev have ~dthin the ~~e,·.rf,undL:md ~onstabulary?

Fm"' many people are involveC. in the sort of v'ork they c1o and so forth to cope with this pro~]ern that the chief sueaks about, blaming the

~t ay 13, 19 77 Tape no. 2683 Page 4 - ms Mr. Ne1:1.rv. illegal use of rlrugs for the increase of crine in this Province~ The }lon. minister. YB. FICI0'1\N: Nmv there is a constitutional probleyn, and I ~~7ould be very happy to d.eal ~,rith it, and I thank the hon. gentlel""an for LaPoile C'r. Neary) for giving me the opportunity so to do. It is .'

~{ay 13, 1977 Tape ~o. 2684 ~ffi.. HICI0fAN: my understanding there are t--:·70 members of the CID >-7ho have been assigned _there may be more but I knmv of t~.;o •..;ho have been assigned-to ~·mrk with the ROW in the field of narcotics and I feel reasonably certain they heve from time to time taken advantage of courses that are offered to law enforcement officers in that area. The main responsibility, in fact the total responsibility for the enforcement and control of 't-IM - 1 narcotics is with the Attorney General of Canada,who for constitutional reasons insists that he has exclusive responsibility.

Consequently there is a very, very high degree of co-operation, Mr. Speaker, between the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Newfoundland Constabulary in the field of the enforcement and control of narcotics and my department does not have any involvement and we are told constitutionally we do not have the right. I may draw to the attention of han. gentlemen that there would appear to be a test case enroute to the Supreme Court of Canada to decide that constitutional issue and hopefully within the next year it will be so resolved. I do not want to trespass upon the time of bon. members - ~.

SPEAKER: I think the tLme has elapsed. MR. HICIO!A.~: -but I gather from ~r. Speaker.that the Question Period time has expired and that comes as a great - ~ffi. • SPEAKER : ~. ROBERTS: HR. HICICfAN: I am sorry,the time is up. I mean he has £ilibustered us out of Question Period. ORDERS OF THE DAY: Motion 8. ~rotion, the han. the Vinister of Justice to introduce a bill, "A . .~.1 Act To Amend The Statute Law To Permit Designation Of Beneficiaries In Certain Income Tax Savings Plans, " Carried. (Bill ?'1o.53). On motion, Bill No·. 5:' read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow.

~ay 13, 1977 Tape 2684 JM- 2 MR. HICKHAN: Motion 9. ~-fotion, the l-!on. the '.1inister of Health to introduce a bill, 11&"1 .t..ct To Amend The Legitmacy Act," carried. (Bill No. 52) On motion, Bill ~lo. 52 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. HICI01'Ai_\T: Motion 6. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 6. The adjourned debate, The han, member for St. John's North. MR. J. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, last night I had hardly begun my fe-.:v remarks when because of the lateness of the hour I took advantage of the spirit of the House to adjourn a few minutes early.

I had made the point that I would not be able to support the sub-amendment which calls for bringing ~r. Sweeney into this House of Assembly to answer certain questions, I also made the point that I do not intend to miss these few remarks to dwell on the past. I said I would restrict my remarks to the previous thirty days. I may have to depart from that slightly but I will try not to. I also made the point,and I want to make it again,that I have no intention of minimizing the distress that is going to felt at Stephenville and in many other communities.

The distress that has been felt is being felt at present and will continue to be felt as a result of this announcement and the phase-down of this mill, But, Mr. Speaker, even government businesses can fail. It is harder for them to ~ail than private businesses because government can always pump a little bit more money in,but there comes a time when certainly a Province such as ours cannot afford to pum~ any more money into a project and then that project has to be closed. Now using some of the information made available to us /

Vay 13, 1977 Tape no. 2685 Page 1 - ms ~rp. J. CARTEP. I Has able to !:'.ake this table of expenses makin? up t2.e cost of a ton of linerboaro, and other speakers "have pointec1 to various savings that were possible. But the biggest single expense - in fact it is al!!'.ost half, slightly ~ore than half in some cases - is the cost of Hood, the cost of fibre. .And, !~r. Speaker, there ~•ere no politics used r.·rhen the conversion figure 1.92 to 2.2 cords per ton, there are no politics in that figure. That is a figure that is arrived at by scientific ~easurement.

There are no politics; there is no dissembling in that figure. It is unfortunate, but it is true that the fibre content of our "mods is disturbingly lm·7. ~"''.. J . CAP.TEP_: (Inaudible) . Yes, apparently. I am told - and I have to accept these fig:ures - that the fibre content of Southern pine is much, much greater than the fibre content - 'MR, S}'ALUJOOD: Foul d the han . H1' J. CAPTE't?: Yes, I 't·rill gladly yield. ~'P . S'MJ>..LLFOOD: Fould the hen. gentleman yield?

One of the great advantages of Ne~·7fondland and Labrador, especially Lab racer, but NeFfoundland teo, in the making of pulp for paper or for any purpose is the fact that the nature of the fibre, the size, the length, the character of the fibre in our forests is probably the highest in North America. From a cord of pulp r..;rood you get so much - you get a certain tonnage of paper. The tonnage is cetermined by the length and the nature of the fibre. Now the figures as I recall them - and this is from nemory - ::-Te"t-7 Bruns,..!ick around 1, 800 pounds of p;~per fro!T' a cord of their pulp Poocl, 1, 8()0: ~rove.

Scotia a lHtle, a Fee bit hi~t:er t~-::::n that, r.'.aybe 1,900 pouncs; Southern ~uebec, 2,20n pnunds, the Island of :;e,,7foundland, 2,8()0 pounds and La.hrador, 3,2'JO pnunds. nur •....:.

~·ay 13, 1977 Tape no. 2685 Page 2 - rns ~~r. Smalbvood. forest is much superior prol.:lably to any in ~:orth Ar.erica. SloH growing compared ~· lith theirs, but rich in ouality. "fF. J. CARTEt:'l: There is no doubt, ~r. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman h~s a point. Certainly our black spruce and the Labrador black spruce is the envy of all paper makers. But the chief advantage of the black spruce is its fibre strength.

And nev7sprint "to7hich has to be run at a very high speed for printing newspapers in order to meet deadlines, has to have a great deal of-tensile strength and for this the black spruce is very valuable. But, ¥.r. Speaker, surely the member for T"tolillingate U~r. Smalhrood) is not quarrelling with the figure 1.92 that we are given in the report. I cannot see that any politics were used in that figure. ftnd if the figure 1.92 - and in certain cafles up as high 2.2 - but I will stickv;ith the figure 1.92, because that is the lmvest fi~ure. I am trying to be a charitable as possible.

I am trying to w.ake out the best possible case for the Linerboard mill. If the figure is 1.92,and if the average cost of a cord of wood is around $85,then \•Ie have $146.74 as the cost of primary fibre in a ton of linerboarcl, and this is an inescapable fact.

Now going on dm·m the line the other costs, other fibre $4.65; other $14.09; water, not paid by the way, $1.92; fuel, $21.04 -all these other figures that make up the total cost of a ton of linerboard, exclusive by the \·7ay of interest and of rl_epreciation, these'other costs are so small in relation that even if you succeedec'l in halving - them you still •-mulcl not be saving very !'luch. 'l'hey are miniscule costs compared vrith the cost of fibre. ~T HON. }!F1'BE1': T.fuat about labour? :-.~ . J. CAPTE~ : SoT!'ebody !T'.entioned labour costs.

The labour cost is $19.44 per ton of l:inberboard. ~1m-r if ~:e are socially ccn~cious Fe should hope that that cost ~-!Ould p-o up. Fe should hope tl1at

t) P. ~ . ;crkers '·Till receive :nore. So the unfortunate-.sar:! fact, ''r. Spee1ker,

Hay 13,1977 Tape 2686 AH-1 HR. J. CARTER: is that there is a vast gulf, a vast gulf bet\veen the nearly $400.:a ton that it cost to make Linerboard and t~e $200 a ton that <:.Je can get for it. These are very round figures, it is very approximate 7 but the size of them I do not think anyone vlill seriously quarrel o:·lith.

NoH, hon. members on the other side have made some very good points particularly that there may have been mismanagement and inefficiency in the mill and if so this is obviously added to the cost of a ton of linerboard. ~ve11 my reply to that is if you know of any inefficiency name names and dates and places. If you know of wood havi~g been stolen say that at November 25 at Parsons Pond, Mr. Smith- took a hundred cords of wood and I make this charge - MR. S£-f..ALLWOOD: HR. J. CARTER: HR.. SMALL\.ol'OOD: The han. member must be joking. I am not joking, Why not?

You do not mention it unless you can mention the name of the man and the hour and be certain \.Jhere he put it? l'fR. J. CARTER: be started - HR. SHALLWOOD: HR. J. CARTER: You cannot seriously expect an investigation to Do not pull our legs now. I am not pulling anyone's leg , Hr. Speaker, but if you are going to make charges you have to be more specific than the previous speakers have been.

Now it must come as some surprise, it must come as some surprise - this is the third time I aave spoken in this debate; two extra slots have been provided to me by the movers of the amendment and sub-amendmen~-~d it must come to some surprise to han. gentlemen opposite that I,who am no great admirer of this government,should be so vociferous in its defence in this instance. I make no secret of the fact that I have voted against this government on several occasions B.J.J.d I :1ave often disagreed Hith them~ and I am not about to be soft on this government. But the plain fact

:ray 13,1977 Tane 2686 AH-2 :::-IR. J. CARTER: is, Nr. Speaker, that~ you knm-:r~ 1ve are going oankrupt. T.le Province of je"I·Tfoundland is going bankruut. :myone -.:.;ho doubts this ~·fR. Sc·lALLHOOD: You cannot say that. :1R. J. CA~.TER: I say it, I say it because it is apt and unless we take very vigorous steps to reverse this process ~re are going up the spout. Now there are very, very hard decisions ahead and this is one of them, It is a very tough decisions.

I admire the courage of any government that makes them,but it is absolutely ne~essary to make this kind of decision if we are going to avoid the b~ruptcy that will follow. There are going to be many more difficult decisions in the future and this is the plain fact of it. ilow I have been reviled to some extent because of my interest, . expressed interest,and some understanding of paper making and woods operations 0 In fact my interest in paper making and of the paper making process goes back a couple of decades.

I suppose I should be like the opposition and bring to this debate the priceless heritage of an empty mind. I do not think that that has any advantage. I am interested in paper making.I know a little about it, distressingly little, but I do k.notv a little. And,for instance~I have been criticized for saying "Oh~I sau the site at Steplj.enville" but one of the things apparent to me about the site at Stephenville is that the storage capacity for finished linerboard is very small and that is one of the reasons why the mill has had to suffer so much doTNU-time.

Now that is a sensible or a worthwhile crit:lc:lsm · of the tvhole process, and the point should be made, I am surprised it \vas not made earlier. I am sure hon. gentleman opposite must realize that the storage capacity for the Linerboard mill is too small. N: HON. ~EE~lBER: (Inaudible) :-IR. S~1ALU700D: I think the hon. nernber has a good noint, · ·=..

'-Lay 13,1977 Tape 25 86 ~.R - 3 )IR. • J . CARTER: I am. sorrv. Tids is a genuine point, it is one . t h at can b e discusse d but cannot be - t'ffi. . s :•.IALL ~JOOD : It can be reme died . . IR . J . CARTEP. : It can be remedied . yes . no doubt ab out that . '~O'tv much h as been made of the multiplier; it is not 600 jobs it is 1800 jobs, it is not 1000 jobs it is 5000 jobs . ~ ow I do not tJant to get into the complexitys of the multiplier , but it is certainly true that one job • one productive job in ,·e,N"foundland-, doe s mean several other jobs and I will not get into hm? many jobs that means .

But since most of our products, everything tve t.;ear, nearly everything we eat , all of the things ;,;re drive are imported , they come from the .1ainland , they come fro m the United State s,possibly Euro pe ~ some of them . SuTe there may HR. . SM..I\LL-WOOD : Hong Kong, Taiwan. MR. J. CARTER: Sure there may be three jobs for every one job at the mill /

May 13, 1977 Tape 2687 PK - 1 Mr. J·. Carter: every one: job at the mill, but the jobs are not in Newfoundland - MR. SMALUJ'OOD: They are. MR. J. CARTER: they are up in Toronto, MR. SMALLWOOD: They are. MR. J. CARfl'ER: - up in Montreal. MR. SMALLWOOD: They are. MR. J. CARTER: Oh sure the selling - MR. SMALLWOOD: Because even the clothes that we import have to be handled by longshoremen, by shop clerks, by bookkeepers. -. MR. J. CARTER: So there is a tenth of a job in handling it. MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh no. MR. J. CARTER: But what about the job in making it, producing it. ·.:.:.. MR.

SMALLWOOD: There have to be teachers, there have to be doctors, there have to be tinsmiths, there have to be barbers, beauticians, taxi drivers, MR. J. CARTER: Yes, but - MR. SMALLWOOD: truck drivers, and a hundred others. MR. J. CARTER: - let us suppose the hon. gentleman is right when he says there are three jobs for every job at Stephenville, let us suppose he is right, accept that figure. There are not three jobs in Newfoundland for every job in Stephenville. MR. SMALLWOOD: Excuse me, the hon. member must not attribute that to me; it is not I who said that. MR. J. CARTER: I am saying that rh€torically. MR.

SMALLWOOD: It was Canada Statistics. MR. J. CARTER: All right,but accepting that fact for the sake of argument, three of those jobs are not in Newfoundland, they are in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, United States,that is where the multiplied people are. MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the han. gentleman yield? MR. CARTER: Sure. MR. SMALLWOOD: I am fascinated by his interest in this topic because I have been interested in it for many, nany years, and I made

May 13, 1977 Tape 2687 PK - 2 Hr. Smallwood: a fair study of it.

If you take the population of Newfoundland gainfully employed, gainfully occupied, you know, clergymen, doctors and editors and reporters and House of Assembly members and all kinds of people in Newfoundland and the entire population gainfully occupied, subtract from that total number those who are productive ' in an economic sense of the word,producing something, producing paper or pulp or herring or seal skins or cod oil or paper or minerals or anything,the economic producers, total them up and subtract them from the number of the gainfully employed and the han. gentleman -. will be amazed at the result he will get.

Here is the result he will get~ For every productive worker we have in Newfoundland there are two and a half is the _ well that was the number the last time I did the computation, two and a half jobs, not productive, but jobs here in the Province, two and a half to one. In the United States where the industrial fabric is so far more advanced and efficient, the ~ultiplier is seven to one, in Newfoundland it is two and a half to one, and it varies from pne part of Newfoundland to the other. It is higher in Corner Brook than it is in Grand Falls.

It appears that on the sea coast the multiplier is higher than - in Buchans, for instance, the multiplier ~;auld hardly be one to one, because there is nothing there except that one enterprise, But in Corner Brook, in St. John's you get a high multiplier but the average for the Province,two and a half to one. MR. J. CARTER: But I think, Hr. Speaker, with all due respect, I think the matter is rather more complex than the hon. gentleman has said in the past few minutes. But I do not want to get into it. I will grant him his point, and I will not dispute that. I would like to move on a little bit.

I said there is a great, great danger of us going bankrupt 0 In fact, unless the present trend is reversed that is exactly what will happen, because our interest payment is going up every year and it will soon be equal to our ability to borrow, and if that sad event cccurs our services and salaries will have to be cut. And the people of Newfoundland

May 13, 1977 Tape 2687 PK - 3 Mr. J. Carter: are not willing to make ever. minor sacrifices. Now last year when we voted ourselves this raise I was appalled at the reaction I got when I said, I did not approve, I was not going to accept it. I had to put up with a stream of actionable filth from the member for LaPolie (Mr. Neary), a stream of actionable filth right here · in this Chamber. AN HON . MEMBER: That is right. He did too. MR. J. CARTER: Now the House was not in session, and I did not take the time honoured remedy of running across the House and striking him as has been done in the past.

However there was ·a stream of actionable filth from that gentleman. MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not hear the last - is the han. member referring to me? MR. J. CARTER: No, no, no, from the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I said when I - MR. SMALLWOOD : No, n~t from him! MR. J. CARTER: There was. MR. SMALLWOOD: The most sensible member of the House. MR. J. CARTER: Well he has got, of course - MR. SMALLWOOD: A .patriotic Newfoundlander. An excellent member of the House. MR. J. CARTER: He is the most foul-mouthed creature - MR. SMALLWOOD: Oh now come on! MR. J. CARTER: that this Rouse has ever given shelter to. MR.

SMALLWOOD: No. MR. J. CARTER: Anyway, Mr. Speaker, - MR. J. NOL\l'l': M~. Speaker on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Collins): A point of order. MR. NOLAN: On a point of order. Can we take such charges against an hon. member and let it go in that fashion? Surely, is this is what we are going to come to I cannot imagine what is going to happen for the remainder of the debate and this session. Surely~ And the member not even in the House!

May 13, 1977 Tape 2687 PK - 4 Mr. Speaker: (Dr. Collins): On that point of order, without actually looking up Beauchesne,! think one can accept that one should not disparage hon. members in the House and - ·--=

~'ay 13, 1977. Tape 2688 rH - 1 I would assume that the hon. memher for St. John's 5 orth(Yr. J. Carter) had not that in mind. So I would ask him if he ~vould withdraw the remark to clarify that point without any doubt. ~-!p .• J. CARTER: As you direct, [rr. SpeaJ..-:er, I "~olill ~v ithdra~.; that remark and I will move on. However, the other thing,. I Has trying to TI'ake the point that people are not prepared to make any sacrifices 1 even small sacrifices.

And the sac. part about it is that our best brains, for exa!nple ~-~emorial l..'"niversity, are not willing to !"ake the kind of sacrifices that are re quired if Newfoundland is to be kept as a going concern. Every year they are looking fer ~ore and more and more and even though they get more,and the percentage more that they " get is relatively high, ther~ is nothing but complaint, co!!'plaint, C' complaint or ~ v e cannot do this, ~.;e cannot do that, we cannot do the other. NoF I have every SY!!'path y for people v1ho Fan t more.

But if they are literate and if they are informed as this group of people certainly should be, then they should realize the kind of difficulties we are in • .And they should modify their demands accordingly. But I see no modification of the demands from ~emorial ~~iversity or from the various professional groups that r,1e l:.ave to deal v.rith. And I think it is very sad, it is very sac, Sir. "\-That chance do we have? ~d it is our rotten luck to have to turn this around.

The history books ~vill s.a:y, noh, the Liberals are the builders and tte P.C.s are the closers ! 1 But if the record is looked at very closely ~ve ~vill see that the real villian now sits in this House, nmv sits in this House.

And I should not have to go back over the last tlventy-three years, but I feel that the former Premier, I honestly think that some of his behaviour has been sid:~because here he ~vas cavorting ';·Jith these great developers and anyone who was prepared to indulge his fantasies - and I ':vould say to the hon. 3entle T!lan in the past if he neececl treatment he should ~1ave gone to a hospital, not to a conference I should not ~e too hard on him because I co not think - / ·-:;.

~'ay 13, 19 77. Tane 2688 r>H - 2 l-nY'"-:'ay, flatte-ry is not '!Oing to get the hon . gentleman anyt ·lhere. '1-m CA".T'2J': r!ell, flattery vill get you everyt·7here, ~rr. Speaker. '1"?.. T'O'BE'P.TS: Look 'vhere it has got the hon. gentleman from St. Jor.n 's North. }~R. r..AF_TER: By the ~·cay~ I ~JOuld like to read from something that might be interesting. This debate ~as depencl .ed more on rhetoric than on content. And I have here a book written by James rf. }~inifie. And there is a small

section in it about the former Premier. And if I can - it is only a fe~.; lines, so I will take the liberty to read this. It says that, "North of the T'.io Grande perhaps the best surviving political satirist Premier Joseph Srnalhrood of Ne~·rfoundland. There is a famous recording of a speech of his at Corner Brook, etc., etc. Ee ~"·as belting a-.:.;ay at the Tories, the Depression and ~Kr. Diefenbaker, but particularly I-fr. !"iefenbaker. He realizer\ he asked his audience, if ?.fr. Diefenba1·er up to cl.ay he heca.Il"e Pri!!'.e ~'inister of Canada '-!ad never been elected to any office in his life.

He had never been elected mayor. Re had never been elected to municipal council. He had never been elected village constable. He had never even been elected c.og catcher for his own ho1r..e tmm. So at the age of sixty t-.;·m (and remember I am not here at sixty-t'\o.'o and I have been going on fourteen years a Cabinet minister/ at sixty-t't•TO he had never occupied any office at all ,.;hen, lo and behold ,he r.·;oke up one morning Prirne 1iinister of Canada." On and en and on it goes. And the rhetoric is good and it vras a good speech. The point ~.;as Hell made. But there is no content there, ~r.

Speaker, no content. ftnd this is my criticism of much of the debate that ~ve have heard from the other side. "<I?. S~~ALLHOOD: Hculd the hon. gentlei"' .an yield a moment? Yes, ~ir. '!'hat r.·!as a federal ~eneral election. ,\nci I ha.d TI'.et '·'r. Pearson at T'leer Lc>_~-e · c>nc f'Ot a pro~i.se out of him. I 2.skec . hi'IT' ·~

. 'ay 13, 1 977 . Tape 26813 PH - 3 '-"P . s~rALLH00D : publicly on the P .. ~ . system Pould h e pave H if ~e b ecai!1e Prir.e ~ 'in iste r and he pro mised that he .,7 o uld . f.nd inc :i.C.entally he rid . So t h en ~•e t-rent dot .. 1Q t o r.orner Brook and had a great rally . And I !l'ade t he s!'leed~ fro~ ~·:h ich the ho n. gentleman just quot ed. It ~·'aS funny , a~d I thin k it h ad sor.:e t-rit in it. And the Liberal Party . of Canada decided that they '!-muld publish it and print a couple of millio n copies of it . And they had a recordin g of it . And they put it ;

~tay 13, 1977 J'H - 1 ~1R. SMALLHOOD: on the air and so on and so on and in the end decided that the reaction night be the opposite from 'lvhat he desired, that it might actually help ~r. Diefenbaker:and so that deathless oration survives today only in the book from 1vhich the hon. member has quoted. Now he has put it on our mm Hansard and it forms part of Newfoundland history from now on and I therefore thank him, MR.. J • C.<\..RTER: Hell, I think my point has been made that most of the - MR. ROBERTS: I think the hon, member for Twillingate has made his point. .· ~. J. CA..~TER: It is already on the record.

I have no objection. I wish the entire gentleman's past were on the record. That would be a record worth having. I would like the entire past and I certainly in my old age will make a great deal of effort to see that the hon. gentleman's true past is recorded. Now I have a fe~I more points to !D.ake before I sit down, Mr. Speaker, and that is that the gap is not going to be closed. It cannot be closed but this debate has probably been useful because - ~1R. SNALLHOOD: T,fuat is the han. member 1 s answer to S-.;veeney? HR. J. CA..~TER: Hy ans'I>Ter to ~r. Sweeney is I am sure that Mr. Sweeney is available.

Any han. member or group of members who - ~-1R, SHALUTOOD : No, the member's ans1:ver to his statement about this year, next year and the year after, >vhat can be done? !.ffi. J. CARTER: }fy answer, ~-fr, Speaker, is the high fibre costs. 1-!R. 0 SMALLHOOD: Is what? MR. J. CARTER: The high fibre costs. The cost of - MR. SM..A.LUiOOD : But does he not know about that? - MR. T CARTER: The cost of fibre as shmm in this report is " . intolerably high and cannot be substantially reduced. The other costs, ves, other efficiences but remember now, remember - 1'1R.

S:-1ALUJOOD : Once a~ain, would the hen, gentleman who is so gracious to me - he has never once refused me a hearing. - ,,rould the hon.

~ay 13, 1977 Tape 2689 JM- 2 ~ffi.. S~1ALUJOOD : gentleman agree ~vith me if I tell h~-n this~that his leader in politics in Ne~1foundland and in this House, his leader, the Province's leader at the moment, the Premier of Newfoundland ~.;ill get that mill going? He will. And if he will,if I am right,then every word that has been said here supporting the closing of it is false and empty. ~·lha t would he say to that? MR. J, CARTER: I ~.;ould say, Mr. Speaker, that to err is human but when the eraser wears out ahead of the pencil you are overdoing it. That is what I would say.

To err is human but 1.;hen the eraser wears out ahead of the pencil you are overdoing it. That is what I am saying to that, MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the han. gentleman lend me the book from which he copies all these sayi~gs and witticisms, He has a score of them. MR. J. CARTER: It is falling apart but there is lots of good oolitical stuff in it. -- ~-!R. ROBERTS: Style arid Co!'_ tents. NR. J. CARTER: No, James 1'1. Minifie~ Ttfuo is Your Fat Friend. }1'R. ROBERTS: The sub-title is Style and Contents. ~!R.. J. CARTER: Stvle and ·contents, that is the one, yes. MR.

ROBERTS: If the hon. gentleman had it what would he copy from it? XR. J; CARTER: Well, the han. member for Twillingate has \vritten a number of books. I dispute his - They are not - I dispute the titles though. I Chose Canada - I think a much better title for that would have been perhaps Famous ~-!en !.~o Have 111et ~1e or Shorn By Shaheen or Dicing Hith Doyle. There are quite a number of titles that one could have chosen. ~~. ROBERTS: Back to the hills in Mt, Scio - MR. J. CARTER: The hon. gentleman from Twillingate ,you knor.v, ~r.

Speaker, he is defending his errors as if he vJere defending his inheritance. :To~v he has an inheritance and I think it is mostly errors but I do not see uhy he defends them. Anyr..;ay there is it. I thinlc I ha,re r,Jandered about enough. I accept the most opti~istic of the fi3ures in the

~· ~y 13' 1977 Tape 2689 . ~ . J • CART "R : reports that ve have had ade a•1a.ila ble to us and even t~e most o timistic fi gures sho'' t hat this .ill cannot as 9resently constituted vork. Therefore I have no alternative but to support the gover!11!len t, a government which I do not al ·ray s support so that my sup _ort I think is all that more valuable, all that more rational, means all that much more because the government is not getting an unqualified support of a - JM - 3 NR. S.·1ALLi\TOOD: right. The government are beginning to wonder if they are ~· !R. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman, Mr ..

Speaker, has just said that his support is all the more valuable. MR. SMALLWOO'D~ Because he does not normally support it. MR. J. CARTER: I think that that lends som~ verity to what I have been trying to say. So there it is, '1r . Sneaker. I only hope that the House will be a little more civilized in its debate, less rhetorical, anc! /

~·ay 13, 1977. Tape 2690 P.~I - 1 try and ral-e sore le?itirr'ate roint~. S1,_ort of su~stance, the hen. fent1er:an is (Last rar-t inaudible.) ~ .. CAPTP': Try to give us a little IDore substance. That is rigtt. The Leader of the Opposition took the very r.JorC.s out of my rn.outh. So on that note, Yr. Speaker, - ~~-· POBEP.TS: (First

part inaudible) - from the other end - (Last

part inaudible.) ~"P. • J . C.t\..RTE P. : On that note, ~, ~r. Speaker, I ,.r.ill end my speech . Eear, hear! ~~P.. SPEAKEP: The hon. member. for St. Georges. ~"P.S. }(ACISA_.<\_C: ~fr. Speaker, I feel quite confident nmv that there is a hope for Linerboard since the hon. gentletnan nor.r supports the govern­ ment. This is a switch. l'sually he supports them 1vhen they are ~n-ong and opposes them when they are right. So nm·: this is hope for Bay St. George. ~·.R. ROBEP.TS: So much for savoury. 1TS. 1-fACISAAC: r-~r.

Speaker, the debate so far on Labrador Linerboard has been I feel very interesting and a very r,:orth.-..mile one. I am sorry though that the debate did not come befo.re the decision to close Linerboard. I think maybe it may have had some' effect on the decision. I think that a lot of 1vorth~.;rhile facts, a lot of infon" .ation has come out. And it is possible that this information ~ay have influenced the government's decision if it had been held prior to the decision. HR. SY.PLU!OOD: It may still do so. l-fJ'S. P,P,CISP...AC: It may still do so. I hope so.

I believe maybe that government may b~ taking a second look at it. I think that any-reasonable group of I!'en,and certainly !l'en •·mo are in responsible !10sitions,cannot listen to all of thjs infor!"ation and just brush it 2.side. I feel that the Premie!" has been J isteninf. to r:uite a :-it of the C:ebate. Ano I thj_nk

~ray l3, 19 77. Taoe 2691') PH - 2 ~'T'. S. HACISft . .-\r: he has to take a look at facts. I lrnotv that all the figures that have been splashed around here, sorr:eboc.y is v7rong. t•le have a $54 '[!]i:llion figure on one hand anc then we bring it down to a $28 million figure to be spread over a three year period. Now I believe that all han. gentlemen have been taking their infor~4tion from the information that t~ey had been receiving fro~ government. So either there is a possibility of switching those figures to suit the purpose, either that, or somebody is '"rang.

I certainly do not feel that the $54 million figure is a correct one. I think that the $28 million is a better figure. And I certainly do not feel that Labrador Linerboard should be closed. And, of course, I have t\-ro reasons for that. I am concerned about it as far as the Province is concerned~and I am certainly more concerned it as far as Bay St. George is concerned. I think that over the last fe~·7 days this debate has brought fonTard a lot of information and the people are learnin~ the facts about Labrador L:inerbo~. rc. There are I am sureJmembers right here in this hon.

House Hho had no idea as to just ~.;hat .1.;as hap'J)ening in Stephenville ,.Jith respect to Labrador Linerboard. And we go back · years and years if ,.,e 'vant to and t.;re can rehash all the problems and talk about all the mis­ management and theft and whatever, and I do not think that that is going to serve any pur'J)ose at t~is present time. ~hat is gone.

It is tvater under the bricl?e. find although I · sincerely feel that it rUd have an effect on the operation at Labrador Li..T1erboard, and it certainly accounts for the high figures, lost figures that are being splashed aronnd, it is not the topic that we should be discussing right now. ':fuat happened' years ago is gone. 1>ie cannot C.o anything about it. But •.;re certainly can look to the future. ~in,ht. ~ ear, hear! '"'.S. ~'.-\CISAA, .C: And :r: feel that "r. Sueenev, c.nc1 Yr. ~T, ·eenev ~~-s heen one of the main topics,and as far as tve are concernec_ he is the only inc!ividual noF thc.t lve c.<m look to.

He ,,ras appointed or hired or selected or ,,·hatever you ~,,ant to c01ll it and his purpose j s to TI'a!<e Labrac1or Linerboard Vfll a viable operaticn.

Hay 13, 1977 Tape 2691 LB-1. i\'TIS. •rAr.IS.'I .. H:: "'\nc. from ~·1hat I can understand and what I have read and heard about 11r. Sweeney. He is after turning mills around, mills that from, I guess everybody's point of view- had no chance whatever. Hr. Sweeney has gone from one mill to another and he has turned theR around and made them viable operations. He is in Stephenville now and he has been working very very hard since he is there. There is a good relationship between Mr. Sweeney, the union,the town and in fact everybody in the area respects him.

I believe that government would have to admit that Mr. s,.~eeney have made some very worthwhile changes in the operation of Labrador Linerboard, and have certainly turned it around to a point. I do not think for one minute that Mr. Sweeney that the rug should be pulled from under him right now. MR.ROBERTS: Hear~ Hear~ ~·1RS VACIS~~\C: He is just getting started. He is very concerned. He has put his job on the line~actually,and he has come out and said that he certainly feels that government is making a mistake, and that it can be a viable operation.

He feels he should be given a chance. \ole on the West Caast of the province feel that Hr. Sweeney should be given a chance. I, too ,-t;.Jould like to see him before the House of Assembly. I do not know if it is a situation that I w·ou~d like to be in myself to have to come in here and sit down before all the members of the House of Assembly and speak out against the government,because from what I can understand he is certainly against the decision to close the mill and he is in an awkward position right now.

But I still would like to see the man brought in if he is willing to come and ans\ver questions~give facts and figures relating to the operation. The people in Bay St. George are quite concerned about Hhat is going on. There whole future looks very black. They have organized. They have regional impact committees and all the groups and organizations and the union, everybody in the area seems

Hay 13, 1977 Tape 2691 LB-2. HRS. VACIS:\c\C: to be '\vorking together, '\70rking with the hope that IT!aybE': the decision can be reversed. I knmv that there is still from four to six months progably to get all the facts together and hopefully something '\vorth'llhile will col!le out of it. I '\vas interested in the statementcby the Minister of Justice. I do.not have it,I do not think,right here now; an~vay he indicated that government wants the mill turned around. This to me is what I want to hear. I am quite happy that government has not taken a firm decision to close the mill.

So the way I look at it is where there is life there is hope. So, if we have from four to six months and wi~h all the facts and figures that are coming out and all the information that is being passed on to government there is still a possibility, I believe,that it 'tvill be turned around. I knmv that -- I think that the Premier intends to speak today and I hope that there will be something encouraging in his remarks. There have been indications that the f!eople may be moving out of Bay St. George,that they may give up and go on and look for work elsewhere.

I have talked to quite a few of them and I do not think there is any great rush to get out of Bay St. George. I believe that the people in the area still have a bit of confidence and hope in the' government. Kimberly Clarke~and I think another company '\vere in the area quite recently to see if anybody was interested in leaving Newfoundland and seeking employment elseHhere with their companies. I do not believe that there was too much response, because people in the area are determined to stay in Bay St. George,to -..raitit out and see what happens.

I think this is the right approach because things may change, it may very '\vell be turned around and Labrador Linerboard may be a booming operation next year. I think that the announcement to close the mill is definitely having an effect on the Bay St. George area. Air Canada, for instance, or Department of Transport had plans to upgrade or extend the rumvay in Stephenville programme of some sort. They had a rum.ray improvement

~·fay 13 ,19 77 Tape 2692 .::\H-1 ~ffi.S He.ciSA..\C: Frorrv1hat I can underst2nd they ~ave deferred t~e.t at least,if they have not cancelled it completely they have certainly deferred it and I believe that the reason for the defe~ent is pending the results of the - or the continued operation of Labrador Linerboard. They have also re-routed one of their flights which we are not quite happy with and I believe that maybe this may be because of the announcement that Labrador Linerboard is closing. TI1e Stephenville area, the Bay St.

George area,is an area that has been hit a fe,.; times nm-1 with this type of ne;,.;s. In 1966 '\ve Hent through this same crisis when the American Airforce Base closed out and Stephenville turned into a ghost to~ and, in fact,other areas in the Bay St. George • I was in Stephenville at the time, >.Je had our home there, and when the announcement came that the base >vas going to close there was nothing in Stephenville, no industry or nothing to take up the s:!J.acl:,so Stephenville turned into '\vhat I 1:·10uld call a ghost town.

Host people sold their homes and ~oved elseT,Jhere, TtJe sold ours and moved to Baie Verte and in fact we sold our home for $2900. lo/e were very fortunate to get that much for it; 'lve sold it right avmy and at $2900 for a home. So this is the type thing that I can visualize happening again in Stephenville,and there were beautiful homes. People had their life savings invested in the area. Hhen Labrador Linerboard w·ent into operation - I know there were problems at the beginning. \~"hen government took over Labrador Linerboard operation there was hope.

I am not saying that they should not have taken it over, I think that they, did the only thing that was possible at that particular time r.·Jas to take over the operation and try and finish it and get it into production. That was a good move to take it and complete it~but from there on it was disaster because everybody ~mm·rs - I feel and I am sure that everybody feels that the government dollar is not worth the.devil's blessing. Everybody ~-mnts a piece of ·::..:

~iay 13,1977 Tape 2692 AH-2 HRS ~lac ISAAC: it, it is tax m:8ney and there is no respect for it. <L~d I certainly feel that government cannot run an operation sucn as Labrador Linerboard and hope to come out of it in tile black. S0~1E RON. MHt1BERS: Hear, hear! NRS Hac ISA..~C : So I think that this was the downfall. I think government did the right thing in taking it over~but I think that once it was completed they shauld have gotten rid of it,· passed it on to somebody else to operate and maybe we would not have the problems that we have today.

I also think that we drifted along a little bit too long, T~7e kne~v there were problems at the mill, everybody in Bay St. George area knew· there were problems at the mill as far as mismanagement and all this was concerned,and I like I said I am not going to rehash them, but I certainly feel that maybe we should have gotten envolved a little sooner and probably with an investigation or something instead of letting it go as long as we did. I think this is what has crippled t~e mill, it has been loosing money for years and years and all of a sudden Y01.' know,it is just too much.

But as I said,r,.7hat happened in past years is one thing. J.\]'ow that the market conditions look that much better there is a strong determination by the present management to make the mill a viable operation,and people of the area are willing to sacrifice to any means to keep that mill in operation. And I too feel that it is not only the 2000 jobs-or the 600 jobs that are directly - involved at the mill,or the 2000 jobs that are in the area, in the Bay St.

George area. · I too feel that there are a lot more jobs involved that we could probably go up and I take the figure that Statistics Canada have quoted that it

May 13, 1977, Tape 2693, Page 1 -- apb MRS. HACISAAC: directly involves 6,000 jobs. I think that the effects of closing Labrador Linerboard will be felt right across the Province. It will certainly be felt in our area. We have small contractors there, small woods contractors there just in one very small area in St. George's-Flat Bay area where we have one contractor who employed eighty-three men. And eighty-three men in the Flat Bay are~ just about takes every signle one that was on either social assistance or unemployment insurance.

Most of them have been on social assistance for years and years because there was no hope for them getting on unemployment insurance, there was no work available. Since the Labrador Linerboard this area alone has been working just about steadily. ' I am sure that the hon. the Minister of Social Services can verify what I have said about that area in particular and the number of people who have been taken off Social Assistance and put back into the work force. I think that the importance of an operation like that cannot be over-emphasized.

I think that it is going to put so many people back now, right back where they were before, back on unemployment for awhile and then essentially back on Social Services. It is not only a drag on the Treasury, it is degrading and demoralizing to the people who have to live this kind of life. In Bay St. George we have been hit and we have been hit very hard. I feel that there is -well, there is no industry, there is very little industry in the area, and Linerboard now is taking up a lot of the slack from the Codroy Valley area right on through the whole district.

I can see where we will be right back where we started, back - I will not say -.

May 13, 1977, Tape 2693, Page 2 -- apb MRS . MACISAAC : on unemployment, I will say back on the welfare,as we call it in our area, and it is depressing. I certainly hope that over the next four to six moriths that Mr. Sweeney will be given a chance to prove that Labrador Linerboard . is and can be a viable and worth-while operation. I am interested in hearing what the Premier has to say. I am not going to take that much more time because I am quite interested in hearing what the Premier has to say. A lot of information has been brought out, a lot of facts have been put forward. The member for Stephenville (Mr.

McNeil), the member for Port au Port (Hr. Hodder) have, I think, put up a very, very good case. They have added an awful lot to the debate and I do not see the point in my rehashing all that. I have much of the same information here, I am not going to go through it. I find it interesting, and I am quite happv that one of the members on the government side of the House has taken a stand of supporting Labrador Linerboard. I heard just this morning that the hon. the member for Bay of Islands (r1r. Woodrow) has come out publicly and said that he feels that Labrador Linerboard should not close.

I believe that may be the feeling of a lot of members. I hope that if it is the feeling that something will be done about it, that they will come out and take a stand. I think too that the Premier may take a second look at it. I am not going to blame John Crosbie or the Board of Directors, or previous managernent~or the Premier, I think it is a combination. The thing just fell a part. From the day it was completed it just went to the dogs. There was all kinds of money poured into it and it was like

May 13, 1977, Tape 2693, Page 3 - - apb MRS . MACISAAC: pouring it into a leaky basket . Nobody cared about it, nobody respected the money that was going in because it was gover~~ent money . I think the way to get moving now is if, if there is a possibility of getting ·somebody to take over the mill and r un it . I believe that even today, if government still operated the mill,that we have l earned from our mistakes. I believe that even government today could make that mill a worth-while and viable operatio n. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear , hea r! ~m. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier.

May 13, 1977 Tape 2694 PK - 1 PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, first of all I would like to congratulate the member for St. George's for her remarks. I do not think there was one thing she said that both sides of the House do not agree with totally. I think the brevity of the speech was made up for by the quality of it.

I think the obvious dedication and sensitivity that the han. member obviously demonstrated to the House~ even though there were a great many lengthier speeche~,with a great many facts and rumours and emotions involved in them, I do not think any speech has been more sincere or more appreciated than hers in this particular debate even though it was short. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: I would say, Mr. Speaker, we have got an hour and a quarter between now and one o'clock when we close. I will try to be as brief as possible, I will try to talk as briefly as possible about the past.

I think a few things have to be said but as I say, in a general sense, I will deal with the situation as it led up to the decision of government, and I will also talk about the future prospects as we see it as a government and from the people we take advice from. The mood of the present debate in the House,in the main,! think,has been good. I think most of the speakers have been very serious about the situation,as they should be,because it is a serious situation, particularly serious.

I think most of the speeches were concern, some were aggressive~which we are used to in this House~ and with the participants that take part that is to be expected. Some were defensive. And a lot of them, I think, probably demonstrated that the individual is still not dead in Newfoundland politics irrespective of disciplines that may be tried to be imposed on either side. But,I think, Sir, everyone did realize the seriousness of it. And at the beginning of the debate especially I would suggest that it was a tenseness that the situation deserved.

But I have also noticed that after a while it started to drag a little bit, I do not think because people were less concerned, but I think that after certain figures and positions that have been established it is very - ~

May 13, 1977 Tape 2694 PK - 2 Premier Moores: difficult to enlarge upon them, other than to become emotional~ I think emotions have run close to the surface at times, and, in fact, broken through. There were comments made, and I would like to set the record straight right now, and I do not think that anyone in this House would seriously make an accusation that the decision regarding Labrador Linerboard Mill was made for political purposes.

I do not have to say that is untrue because I think that most people would realize that there is no way any government, any government, would ever take a decision of that magnitude based on political bias. As a matter of fact ·I weald say it would be quite the reverse. Because the situation is with the unemployment situation as it is in the Province, the negative attitude that is prevalent, not just in Newfoundland and Labrador I would suggest, but all of the Wester~ .

World today, but maybe particularly here, not :ery much positive to read in the press, it is not very much positive said, there is a great negative feeling, and the psychological affect of closing an industry like Linerboard is not the sort of decision one makes when one is trying to get back to the positive thinking which we must have as a people if we are going to survive.

Sir, we have had many reports and forecasts and opinions, and I suppose when you get so many reports, some half completed, some part of a package that people are making a decision on, I think it is probably very easy for the facts themselves or the figures themselves to be twisted out of context and misunderstood by even the best intentioned. However I would like to make one thing very, very clear; we did not desire, nor do we want in any way for the mill to close. This· is an absolute and irrefutable fact.

And as I progress here today I will.hopefully not be overly optimistic, but realistic in what the real potential is. In the process of doing that~I do not think there is anything worse than any politician raising false hopes, but I think because of the emotion that obviously has arisen from this

May 13, 1977 Tape 2694 Pk - 3 Premier Moores: particular subject the hopes should be discussed and the possibility of bringing those hopes into reality. The Leader of the Opposition has said that it will.hurt specifically some areas for the Linerboard operation to close. and there is absolutely no question about that. The Goose Bay area · already has been, St. George's, Notre Dame Bay, those areas were there are woods operations, and where the mill operates itself,of course. /

May 13,1977 Tape 2695 lu-I-1 PP-E~liER ~fOORES : A."'ld he also says it \vill hurt generally all areas of the Province. ~iov1, ~[r. Speaker, that depends entirely on vJhat it costs to keep the mill operating. Because if the facts that '"e have had in the past and as are projected for the future in fact are realized,the drain on all the tah~ayers in this Province will be very severe indeed. It was only at the time \vhen the social benefits outweighed tl:e economic ones can you make a decision based on the social content of the mill.

The fact is there comes a time when it is too expensive~socially and economically on all the taxpayers~in order to support any one small gro~p. In· this debate unfortunately we have seen people become experts, in some cases just by listening to others, and the fact in other cases by wishful thinking and certainly by rumours and incomplete reports. We in government have to be responsible for the policy that He put fon1ard. And this policy, ~ Ir. Speaker, has to be based on the best advice \ve can get.

The policy is not something that is a w·him, it is not something that \ve want to do for any particular reason when it involves a project of this magnitude as much as it is to do the best thing for all the people in our Province. This I believe ~ve have done in this case. ~{e have in the future had very optimistic - or in the past rather have had very optimistic forecasts that did not \<lork out. In this case He would once again have to look at the forecasts and try to access whether they are overly optimistic or not.

One of the unfortunate aspects,r suppose~of debating in the House - normally in a debate in the House there is a great deal of almost uncertainty or a gray area~if you lil:e.In discussion <vith one of the members of the Advisor y B oard this morning, he ";Jas spelling this out to me in "his particular '"ay,that '"e tend to take it is either black or white. T.Te are either saying it is closing,full stop,or it should not close, full stop.

~1ay 13, 19 77 Tape 2695 /I.H-2 PRE~ITER HOORES : \ve do not look at the :;enuine possibility of it may :-:ave to closeJ'out if certain conditions are met it ''ill not have to close. \\fe do not give enough credence to the possioili t y and at ~vhat goes into the development of that possibility in the future. ~·fuat we do in fact is take ,normally and unfortunately~ make a lot of our decisions based on the past,or uninformed ideas for the future. ~1r.

Speaker, I v7ill be getting into that in more detail in a moment;out first of all I '~vould like to very briefly deal with what led to the government taking over Linerboard. I do not think anyone in this House-with possibly one exception or t~.;o think that the government had any option but to take over the mill at that time. I do not suppose that anyone believes in private ent~rprise running an operation of that sort anymore than ~,;e do. But at the time we became involved, in 1972,it v7as not a question of private enterprise remaining to run the mill.

It certainly r,ms not a question of finding another purchaser to operate the mill,because there was none,certainly none that we could find. And the fact ~vas that the Linerboard Mill was in it in an absolute mess, there ;,;as money floating around all over the world, there was no management in place as such, thete were no sales organizations set up as such, or plans for them,and there was no method of financing the completion of the mill. There was only one vehicle to find those dollars and that v1as the government of this Province.

It ~vas not only bankrupt, it was also, Sir, I would suggest, the laughingstock of the forest industry and t"here just ~-rere not any buyers. And 'lvhen T.ve passed t he legislation in this House to take over the mill the official oppositions supported it, I -.:vould suggest, as enthusiastically as >le did ourselves. And I t h ink if t h ere '"as any d oubt about that, a.TJ.d I aw. sure t h ere is ·..::.

:lay 13, 19 77 Tape 2695 AH-3 PRID!IER ~ [OORES : not, I will just read a few exce rpts from a ansard that the Leader of t~e Opposition said at that tiMe and which I a gree '"i th . But I ~ 1 ant to clear one thin g out of the r..ray, ~ ~r. Speaker, that '"e have been accused of over he re as government,interference in the mill, t hat lolaS no t by design, that ~.;a s totally by accid ent and circumstance ,.;hich has allowed us to do no other thing.

If we had had our ~vay vre ,.;ould of course had priv ate enterprise in t her e ·, and if ~·je have our ~.; ay r..;e '"il l have private enterprise in there vThen the IT~il l gets back in operation , as it should, in ful l p roduction again . SQ}.IE HON • MEMBERS : Hear , hear ! !

~·ay 13, 1977. Tape 2fi96 PF - 1 E-ut to quote the Leader of the npposition on ''c.y 5, ]_972, and I auote, "This rroject is banY.rupt. It has not been put through the legal state of bankruptcy. ~he government themselves alleged it v7as bankrupt in their state~ent of claim. It is in fact bankrupt. If anyone bothers to take the necessary proceedings tmcar tle Bankruptcy />.ct tonight or tomorroer or ~fonday,or 'lvhenever the registry opens again.,they l.rill find it is b~mkrupt. 11 But, Sir, as it ~·:as bankrupt 1ve had one option to do.

That '\·laS to take it over primary because of concern for the people in that area and because there ,,;as $103 million already invested in it. l-7e T.olere certainly advised by a great many people at that time to the contrary, Yr. Speaker, that '~·Te should not take it over, that \ve should let it go under, that it '\vas only putting good !!toney after bad. And there Fere a great many people '\•Tho 1;vere saying that at that ti.me.

But \vith the investment that '\•Jas there, wjth the number of people ,.1ho 1;.rere depending on it and hopefully would do in the future, obviously this governwent had to give it an opportunity to operate. And I go back, ~rr. Speaker, to underline our governiTent taking it over from - quote from the Leader of the Opposition again, the same Hansard, referrin~, I suppose, yes, Yr. Doyle in this case, "The man, I have just read my little chapter, Rogues- and Riches, really, }fr. Speaker, you should sit up tonight and read it. ::-raybe Your Honour has it there. I c1_o not kno'l•i.

But it is an excellent introduction to ~.fr. Doyle. He Hill vote for the bill, not rvith any pleasure, but because '\ve believe that in the circumstances the principle of the bill, the principle of '\•That the government Fish to do and ask the House to do,is a good one. It is the only one. Hhether or not the project should have gotten to this point or '\•rho is to blame are other l!'atters. They have been discussed and they doubtless will be again. Fe !·rill support it." That is the bill. Pr . .Speaker, just to put that one aspect of the c'!ebate to one

Hay 13, 1977. Tape 2696 P.H - 2 side, let us not say that private enterprise ~·ras available to co it . . And let us not say that the operators ~vho ~.;ere operating it could have carried on. There lvas only one option in 1972,and that Fas the option of government taking it over directly supported by the Opposition and by ourselves, of course. Now, Yr. Speaker, ~·lhat has happened since that time ? He have heard a great deal of discussion about the marketing of the product at the mill.

We have heard the discussion about MacMillan Bloedel and the agree~ent that was drawn un between EacHillan Bloedel and t~e government, There was never any agreement between ~acY.illan Bloedel and the government, Mr. Speaker, to get that straight as well. The situation was that they had expressed an interest. Myself and the minister in charge, ~r. Crosbie at that time,went to Vancouver, met with the executive of ~ad'illan Eloedel and sat down and talked about ~vhat the options 'vere.

It ':vas fairly obvious that if the mill ~,ras going to ha'le a .bona fide chance of survival that we would have to, if possible, get the best sales organization and operators that we could possibly get. But upon talking to Nadfillan Bloedel their position was that, yes, they could have the mill for a fee ~-lhich was substantial. They would not be responsible for any losses irrespective of the circumstances at the mill.

They would buy the production of the mill, but if the market ~·Jent do~rn they could only take that production which they could sell after they had so]d all their mm produce and they 1.o1ere in fact a huge producer of linerboard at the tirr:e. Yr. Speaker, looking at that in the cold light of that time that \·!as not really very appealing, just to s;et the prof.Jer letterhead on the masthead - or rather naTI'.e on the letterhead or the masthead or 1:,rhatever you prefer.

The fact is looking at jt i.n that context it uas very difficult to say, Yes, you should have the T7larketinf: and o-perating contract for the mill. Because. I.abracor Linerboarc1 ., as !':'ost people knor.,,, / ·~

~'8y 13, 1977. Tape 2696 P.H - 3 is anc ':·las and is a totally innerenclent mill, one of the very fer.; in the world that is not, as the Leader of the npposition says and as they use in the trade, vertjcal1y integrated; in other ·mrds, rvhere they had to take it ~rom the forest to the final pack of the cardboard carton. They did not have their m·m in built m.arket. They had an opportunity to get in w·tth :i'1acMillan Bloedel but not in their integrated capacity, but only as a frtnge supplier for them when they were needed.

So that being the case Fhat ,_re. had to try to do r,vas look at people ~.rho could have potentially - in the future rather v.rho could potentially help rn_alre the mill an integrated outfit. Nm.r International Forest Products has come in for a lot of criticism, and I suppose in retrospect a deal of that is probably justified. But the fact is, and a lot of people may not realize this, ~· 1 r. Speaker, is that Rand-\·Jhitney, the parent company~are primary box manufacturers. They are not a giant. But I suggest they use approximately fifty per cent in total of what Linerboard produces, that sort of thing.

So that is a fairly big giant in our context. They are large users of Linerboard. And that is particularly the reason r,.,"hy ~ve "7ere interested in talking to them at that time.

~·fay 13, 1977 Tape 2697 PRE~1IER ~:OORES: At the time t~ey agreed that an integrated operation Has best. They ~.;rere looking for supplies. The American market vas very low at that time,,.;here the European market was very high. They were looking for supplies and in the future they saw a marriage that could benefit the gro,vth of both companies. To my knowledge they are honourable people.

I have never known othenvise and they also signed a contract that they ~70uld set up a special organization, employ good people,to sell only Linerboard's production as opposed to being in conflict like most of the major companies would have been. There have also been criticisms of the amount paid that company and the fact is, Sir, the commission was three per cent, which is not abnormal in the marketing aspect of pulp and paper products of that nature.

They were paid, and I have not checked this figure,but the Leader of the Opposition used it and I see no reason to argue about it, $800,000 per year, I would suggest, Sir, if the markets in the international community for linerboard had been good and growing as the forecasts all told us they ,.;rould, which ~·f- 1 in fact they did not, but if they did the Linerboard mill had shown a profitable situation, that -.;.;rould have been very little to have the product marketed satisfactorily.

When the Advisory Board was set up we asked them to investigate the contract with International Forest Products Limited and to deal with it because they did have the expertise to analyse if they were good or bad,and in their case they obviously did not think they were very good because they suggested and carried out the termination of that contract, In retrospect maybe International Forest Products were not the greatest sales organization in the world. But I am not sure, Mr. Speaker, that other organizations would have been that much different.

After all,ve were the only, as I say one of the verJ few independent mills in the world and the hard fact is, Sir, that the \·mrld market dropped, The >mrld market is r,,hat dropred out of sight')and no organization or no sales organization could have stopped that from happening. The fact is that if ve had had the best sales

May 13, 1977 Tape 2697 P.REMIER MOORES: organization in the world they should could not have counteracted the world circumstances that took nlace in the Linerboard industry. Obviously it would be ideal if 'Cve could have sold all the tonnage at the necessary prices to help the mill,but this was impossible. Mr. Speaker, I have a very serious situation here, I have a note I cannot read. MR. NEARY: You must have written it, PRE?1IER MOORES: I must have written it, that is right. Regarding JM- 2 the management of the mill when we too.!-<. over, Mr. Speaker, the manager there for quite some time was Mr.

Donald Dick,who was one of the consultants retained previously to actually supervise the construction and eventually,as I say, ~ve had him there for eighteen months in operation. The second person who was appointed, ~r. Ingram, who has come in for once again quite a great deal of criticism, he was a result of being the best candidate by consulants who were hired to do nothing but find a good mill manager and by advertising in international journals for people who were available. The ironic thing, Mr. Speaker-when we are talking about Mr.

S'Cveeney and his effort now which I •-lill get to in a minute because once again I think it is excellent but I will talk about that a little later- the ironic thing is that the only change in the Linerboard management for all intents and purposes has been the top man. All the rest of the senior management who 'Cvere so bad now all of a sudden seem pretty good. I am amazed that one man could have made such a radical difference,but obviously he has. There "\vere several examples of mismanagement in the past, in the main I am talking about - you know the bulk of them. ~-iR.

S I~ONS : ··:row for example when the~ T.Vere involved in that contract '\·lith Bailey you indicated in the House that somebody either had left the emnloy of the company, one of the mill management people, who called the contract with,you know,Eailey.

~fay 13 , 1977 Tape 2697 J:-f - 3 PRE:fiE~ ~!OO~ES : Yes , I ~ean t here to~ill be some normal changes but in the ~ain it is basically the same team of people , ~.S . '1ACISSAC : They t·7ere probably as good as the PR~IER ~!OORES : Yes , I t hink t his has become very obvious is that the top man how jus t important he is .,and sometimes v7hen ~.,e talk about the salaries of top men in t his Rouse just how critically important they are to turn operations around . And we have heard criticisms for paying . .

May 13, 1977 Tape 2698 LB-1. PREillER HOORES : Mr. Ingraham, ~1r. S'..reeney, any people in charge of these very large corporations and large salaries; if you have the right man he is 'lvorth a large salary, if you have the wrong man he is worth very little. Mr. Speaker, regarding the management, obviously we as a government did not know who were the experts ~anufacturing lineboard. We did not know who was the best man to coordinate a very complex organization that was in very great difficulty. There have been examples of mismanagement that I am sure are true~and I am sure,Mr.

Speaker, there are a great many more_that have never come to light and probably never will. I am sure the food inventory in Labrador when it was checked was unbelievable and some one had made a horrendous mistake. ~.J'e know that the woods operation in various parts of the province was not operated efficiently. He knmv that there '\vas wastage in the chips in the yard. We know it '\vas stored there for two or th:eee years. We know there was a great deal of equipment bought that was useless. We know that there was a great deal of equipment bought that was probably useful that was never used. go on and on.

You can But, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly 't.;hy we had to appoint the-Advisory Board before it had to shut,because under those circumstances I think everyone here would agree it would have to shut. I do not think there is any question about that, That is why I asked the very best people I knew who had anything to do with forestry in business,who were concerned about this province,to get involved in that advisory board. Government could not do it. To accuse ~tr.John Crosbie or the other directors of Linerboard or ourselves for not getting involved, for not doing what had to be done,Hr.

Speaker, I suggest is irresponsible because we are the first to admit that we do not have the specific expertise to run a linerboard mill. /

Hay 13, 1977 Tape 2698 LB-2. PRE~!IER HOORES: That is '>vh:r goverru!l.ent should never be involved because if a politician goes in and tties to run any organization, big or small 7I suggest that the values and true economic principles get warped out of proportion just as quickly as the election approaches. The fact is that that is ,.;hy the Advisory Board was set up. There was one comment that upse