VOL. 4 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. MONDAY, APRIL 9, 1979 NO. 19

April 9, 1979 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape No. 791 DW - 1 ~ffi. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER):Order, please! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR • SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. RICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, as minister responsible for the Office of the Legislative Counsel,pursuant to

section 18 of the statutes of Subordinate Legislation Act,I am required to lay before the Rouse a copy of any subordinate legislation filed under that act. Accordingly'! hereby table the additions of the Newfound­ land Gazette published since July 7th., 1978 up to and including the edition of March 30th.,l979. These issues of the Newfoundland Gazette contain new subordinate legislation gazetted during that time as well as the bulk of the old subordinate legislation required to be re-published under

section 12 of the act. I wish to point out to ,hon. members that,upon the re-publication of. all of the old subordinate legislation due to end April 1979,this Province will be able to produce for the first time a consolidation and index of all the subordinate legislation presently in force. This consolidation, I believe~will be of inestimable value, not only to the legally trained person but also to the general public in locating this Province's law.

I would also point cut to hon. members that government is presently reviewing the consolidation of sub­ ordinate legislation on order to remove any unnecessary subordinate legislation that may exist. HR. SPEAXER: SOME HON . MEMBERS: NR. DINN: Hon. minister. Rear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the report of the Workmen's Compensation Board for 1978. 2'tf23

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 791 Dl~ - 2 ~OTICES OF '~OTIO N MR. SPEAKER{MR. OTTE!NHEIMERl: Hon. minister. ~m. R. COLL!NS: ~rr. Speaker, l give notice t hat on tomrrow I will introduca a bill, ".An Act To Amend The Consumers Affairs And Environment Act, 1973." (Bill No. 2). MR. SPEAKEJI.: Hon. minister. MR. J. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I give no·tice I will on tomrrow illtroduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Crown Lands Act." ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR • !JN • ROl-lE : Mr.

Speaker, the oth.er day - Friday, I guess,before the lights went out-we were pursuing a line of questiouing to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Hicklnan) with respect to this odious and insupportable practice by sometme in the police department taping conversations that they were holding with perspective witnesses and other people. I was going to ask the hon.

Minister of Justice~at that time,whether he or anyone in his department has issued specific instructions to the police depart111ent to cease and desist this practice or whether he has been otherwise in communication with them on this pernitious and odious practice'? HR. SPEAKER; MR. HICKMAN: Ron. minister. ffr. Speaker, I do not ag1:ee with the phraseology used by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with Z024

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 792 NM - 1 MR. HICKMAN: respect to odious ;?ractice, the police on the very rare occasions,I gather,that they have used that, have been acting pursuant to the law,and in particular pursuant to

section 178 (11) of the Criminal Code of Canada. However, when it came to my attention following - MR. W. ROWE: months. Your authority (inaudible) for the past few MR. HICKMAN: - when it came to my attention on or about Tuesday or Wednesday of last week~I,last week issued instructions to both police forces that they were not to use tape recorders in interviewing witnesses unless they first asked the witness for his or her permission so to do. So it is ended, brought to a - MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Just a follow up question on that.

In other words,there are no exceptions to the rule. Is there any provision for a police officer to go to the Chief of Police,or to some official in the Department of Justice,and obtain permission from one of those officials to conduct taped interviews without the knowledge of the witness or person involved? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: The hon. Minister of Justice. No, Mr.

Speaker, the only way in which a taped interview can be carried out of a witness, even though 1 I repeat,it is in accordance with the provisions of the Criminal Code of Canada,is if that person who is being interviewed is first asked permission to do so and, secondl~ gives permission so to do. So it is the person who is being interviewed and only the person interviewed can make that decision. MR. W. ROWE: A further supplementary, Sir. 2025

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 792 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): A supplementary. MR. W. ROWE: Does the minister intend to take any action or undertake any investigation into how wide­ spread this practice may have been in the past? MR. NEARY: Commission of enquiry or anything like that? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the enquiries that I have made indicates to me, I have been advised that it has been used on very rare occasions, and I repeat - MR. NEARY: It is widespread boy. It has been going on for years, - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: - illegal bugging in this Province. MR.

HICKMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker, you know,I have to rely on the police who are the only ones who know and they tell me that that has not been the case and anywhere it was done was done in accordance with the law. MR. W. ROWE: on the subject, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary A supplementary. Has the minister or any official, or the Chief of Police for that matter, received any communication on this practice from the Police Brotherhood, or from any other organized group in society asking that the police stop this practice? MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPEAKER: The han.

Minister of Justice. No, I have not, Mr. Speaker. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, first of all, Sir, I would like to welcome to the gallery on behalf of my colleague, who is not in his seat today, a contingent, a delegation 2026

April 9, 197 9 Tape No. 792 NM- 3 MR. NEARY: from Westport who confronted the Premier out in front of the building about the 2027

April 9,1979 Tape No. 793 AH-1 ~. SPEAKER:(Hr.Ottenheimer) Order, please! Would the hon. gentleman please take his seat? I have to point out to visitors in the gallery that members of the Legislature are always pleased to welcome them here;however,the rules do not permit any form of participation except by people who are elected and have seats in the Legislature. So I would draw that to the attention of people in the gallery - participation in any form showing approval or disapproval.

And I underline that members are always pleased to welcome visitors to the galleries,but the rules do not permit any form of participation. The hon.member. HR. NEAP.Y: Mr. Speaker, these people are very welcome. This is the people ' s House and they have every right to be here as Your Honour indicated and if they could speak they would ask the Premier of this Province,and the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett),to give them a commitment that their road is going to be upgraded and improved because at the present time it is not fit to drive over.

We have already had a petition and now we have a delegation. Now what is the Premier going to do about the condition of that road in Westport? SOME RON. MEMBERS: !:!!:_§PEAKE~ Hear, hear! The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the people from Westport did not confront me and I think that it is unfair to the people of Westport to say that they did~because confrontation and the wordlconfront' sort of indicates that they did something a little bit out of the ordinary, a little bit extraordinary. It just so happens, Mr.

Speaker, that when I received the knowledge that there was a group of people in front of the steps of Confederation Building, it was through one of the members of that delegation in the lobby of the Confederation Building~and immediately I agreed to go out and meet with the delegation from Westport. So I do not think one can consider it at all, Mr. Speaker, as a confrontation , I have 2028

April 9 , 19 79 Tape No. 793 AH-2 PREMIER PECKFORD: met with the delegation out in front of the steps of the Confederation Building and I understand that they have a meeting arranged with the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr.Brett),as soon as Question Period is over)to further discuss the matter of their road conditions. I am aware, far better than the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary), of the condition_of the road to Westport.

I have travelled on that road and I live in that general region, Northeastern Newfoundland, where road conditions are a real problem and have been for a long, long period of time. I have said to the people from Westport,as I will say to the people from anywhere in this Province,that road conditions and improvements to their roads are very necessary and that when in considering the budget for the Department of Transportation and Communications we will consider the upgrading of the road to Westport. I cannot, Mr.

Speaker, as head of this government give a commitment or a promise to any given group of people around this Province that such and such a thing will be done. I think it is irresponsible and dishonest. What I will do is recogni~e that they do have a problem, recognize that the road is in bad condition and give it every consideration,in the consideration of the budget for that department,later on this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPE.!\KER: Before I recognize hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) for a supplementary 2029

April 9, 1979 Tape 794 PK - 1 Mr. Speaker (Mr. Ottenheimer): there are two groups in the House of Assembly. On behalf of the members I would like to extend a welcome to them. The first group is from St. Augustine's High School at Plum Point, forty Grade X students and they are accompanied by two of their teachers~Mr. Peter Sutherland and Mr. Conrad Sampson. I know han. members join me in welcoming these students and their teachers. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: We also have in the galler~es a delegation Point Leamington composed of Mayor Stuckless and Councillor Cooper, and Councillor Lorenzo Andrews and Councillor Eric Andrews. I know han. members join me in welcoming these gentlemen as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman can play with words all he wants, Sir, or be wishy-washy if he wants to, but the people from Westport came in here at their own expense, came in their cars, Sir. They did not expect to get an immediate answer from the han. gentleman.

I was there and heard some of the discussion that took place, some of the dialogue back and forth. But they do expect to get a decision from this government in a reasonable period of time of what the government is going to do about that road. Could the Premier indicate to the House when these people will get an answer or will they have to come in with a larger contingent, a larger delegation than they have at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORO: Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman has changed his tune from his first question. His first question had to do with the commitment now.

Now the han. member for LaPoile is willing to consider a reasonable period of time. I guess by the time his fourth or fifth question comes around he will wait for two or three years like - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 2030

April 9, 1979 Tape 794 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: - was the practice of the former administration. I can indicate, Mr. Speaker, in response to the question, if I may be allowed to in silence, to indicate to the han. member and to the members of the delegation for Westport,who are in the gallery,that when the Budget is brought down they will have a decision on their road,whether in fact any improvements will be made. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): Order, please!

Before recognizing the han. member for LaPoile for a supplementary question, I would point out to han. members,on both sides of the House,the rules with respect to Question Period, and the same rules apply to questions and it applies to answers. And their observance in one case requires their observance in another case, and their br!ach in one case frequently leads to their breach in another case.

With respect to questions, it is said, Beauchesne, Page 132, "It must be a question, not an expression of an opinion, representation, argumentation, nor debate." And with respect to answers, page 131, "Answers should be as brief as possible, should deal with the matter raised, and should not provoke debate." SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER: The same rules apply to both questions and answers because the same rules apply to the entire period. And the Chair wishes to impose them, but the Chair does not wish to take up more than the Question Period than necessary by constant interruptions of han. members.

So I point out to han. members to my right and to my left that the rules apply on both sides and ask them to adhere to them. The han. member for LaPoile, a supplementary. 2031.

April 9, 1979 Tape 795 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just sort of as a preliminary to my question, the bon. the Premier, Sir, did not tell the people from Yestport that consideration would be given when the Budget was brought down. The hon. the Premier told the delegation from Yestport that the Budget would be brought down in five or six weeks time and then a decision would be made. Now the delegation from Yestport have been able to get information out of the Premier that we have not been able to get in this House and that is the fact that a Budget will he brought down.

And I want the Premier now to confirm what he said out front, what I heard him say a few moments ago, that a Budget indeed will be brought down in this House and that the people from Yestport could expect good news in that Budget about their road. Is that correct? Am I interpreting wtiat the Premier said as being correct? AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: - that the Budget would be brought down in five or six weeks time? what he told the delegation. Because that is MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, I hope that the Budget can he brought down within five or six weeks time, no question about that. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, the Premier just indicated to the people from Yestport and, of course, to the people from Markland and all other communities that are looking for improved roads that they have to wait until the Budget is brought down. Is it not a fact that several days ago in this House of Assembly we passed Interim Supply, 2032

April 9, 1979 Tape 795 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: $356 million,and as part of the argument for granting that supply for three months until the end of June, in his presentation the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) said one of the reasons why we have to have this supply approved is so that we can get our road programme on the way, get tenders called and so on, so how does the Premier reconcile these two things, that he has to wait for a Budget when he has Interim Supply and one of the reasons for that Interim Supply is to carry out the road programme for this year? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, primarily because there are certain ongoing commitments that government have made over the years to DREE programmes and to other Capital Works that were made in the previous year which must be kept, and in order to keep them and to get on with the jobs for this year, that Capital commitment in the Interim Supply was put in there, so that therefore, as the bon. gentleman knows, and undoubtedly, all members on the opposite side, that there are commitments from one year to the next by a particular government as it relates to federal/provincial agreements that are in place.

For example, the Trans-Canada agreement involves financing from this Province and therefore we must keep our commitments, and we would be very remiss if we did not. MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary. A final supplementary. A final supplementary, Mr.Speaker. I want to direct this supplementary, then, to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. Brett).

I want to ask the Minister of Transportation and Communications, in view of what the Premier just said, does this mean that the people from Westport, the people from Markland and other communities are going to have to wait 2033

April 9,1979 Tape No. 796 AH-1 MR. CALLAN: possibly six ~eeks or two more months before thQy can find out whether or not they will be included for road programmes for this year? MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) and Communications. MR. BRETT: Hon. Minister of Transportation Mr. Speaker, I have told the hon. member on many occasions,if he keeps any notes across the House,almost avery day in respect to Markland, I have told him on many occasions that I can make no commitments with respect to roads until such time as the complete capital programme is finished. It is not finished and I do not know, Mr.

Speaker, if it will be one week, two weeks or six weeks. I have no idea but the capital works programme for highways is not yet completed and therefore I cannot make any commitments. Mi. SPEAKER: CAPT • WINSOR: Hon. member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the bon. Minister of Transportation. In view of the poor conditions of many of the gravel roads around the Province I have been informed by many of the workers supplied by the minister's department that they have, some of them at least and some N'ith as high as fourteen years of servicl'! ,been given lay-off notices.

In some instances where there were two and three trucks employed there is now but one. Could the minister inform the House if this is the course he is going to follow for an indefinite period of is it just temporary, a change-over from Winter operation to Summer operation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, the lay-offs that are occuring now are the same as happen every year at this particular time. The Winter crews are being la~d off and machinery will be made ready for the Summer maintenance programme. I understand that they are laid off according to the MOS agreement.

It is quite possible that someone could have fourteen years experience and be laid off and I would have to assume in that case that somebody had 2034

April 9,1979 Tape No. 796 AH-2 MR.. BRETT: fifteen years experience and was kept on. But this is normal procedure, it happens every single Spring and every Fall. CAPT. wmsoR: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.Ottenheimer) CAPT. WINSOR: A supplementary, }!r. Speaker. A supplementary. Can the minister inform the House whether the number will be as great as in other years. I mean there will be no reduction in staff on maintenance work, the same number of people will be employed? MR. BRETT: Mr.

Speaker, I am not aware ~f the exact number that will be laid off,but to the best of my knowledge there is no intention for any extra decrease in staff. MR.. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir, followed by the member for Eagle River and Windsor-Buchans. ~. SIMMONS: Mr. sp·eaker, I want to direct a· question to the Minister of Justice(Mr. Hickman). It is a question on a very serious matter and one that has come to my attention in the past two or three hours.

I first learned about it by word of mouth and then on the midday newscast there was a report, I believe on CBC radio, certainly on one of the radio stations, a press report that Judge Soper this morning, during the course of interrogating or hearing a witness which appeared before the enquiry into the leak, 2035

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 797 DW - 1 MR.

STI¥.0NS: Judge Soper~in the couree of that exhange this morning with that witness, accused the witnesstand these were the words used in the press report, ''accused the witness of participating in a cover-up." Now,again,the minister may not take my word for this;he may want to take it under advisement, the question I am going to put to him,and respond subsequently, but I tell him ,wid:out fear of contradiction,that the press report at least stated that Judge Soper had accused,and these were the words, '~ad accused the witness of participating in a cover-up in relation to the leak." Presuming, Mr. ~peaker, that press reports are correct,and I have to presume that for the purpose of my question, if the press reports are correct,and again(I appreciate that the minister might want to check the accuracy before responding,and I can fully appreciate that, my question is this: If the press reports are correct,will the minister agree that the commissioner has demonstrated a severe bias on this matter and should therefore be removed from the inqJ,ri.ry?

SOME HON . MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (l•1R. OTTENHED!ER) :The hon. 11inister of Justice. MR • RICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, number one; I have not heard the report and,number two: the hon. gentleman did not indicate to me who the witness was. The third part - MR. SIMMONS: Does that matter? MR.. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. RICKMAN: Order, please! Order, please! Oh, oh! Well, I do not. But I say I do not know who it is .I am not sure that that is relevant. But 1number three,I find that question offensive, totally offensive, totally unprecedented.

A commissioner, a commissioner,when Judge Soper as a dommissioner makes a comment from the bench. MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) job (inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Orde;, please! Order, please! 2036

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 797' DW - 2 MR. • HICIQo!AN: When Judge Sop.er makes a comment as a result of evidence that he has heard to suggest that the gentleman has any bias that should be removed. It is so affensive that it would be de:meaning to even answer the question. SOME RON, MEMBERS : MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER~ Hear, hear! A supplementary. A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Of course, it is offensive;the truth often hurts. Mr. Speaker, indeed we are campaigning for some j ustic:e in this Province and we are going to get it eventually.- SOME RON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMONS : We mlght not get it under the present minister but we will get it. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTT~IMER):Order, please! Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: withdraw that last remark. MR. SPEAKER: MR . SIMJ-.lONS: I would ask that the hon. gentleman I did not he.ar the last remark. The last remark, Mr. Speaker, was as follows, 'We m,ight not get it under the present 11dnister but we will get it.' Justice! }!R. SPEAKER: As it is somewhat vague~I do not th~ I will pursue that any further than I can see you 111igqt get 2G37

April 9, 1979 Tape 798 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) justice under the present minister. It is a criticism of the minister, but it is not an allegation of deceit or anything. I think it is in that vague, area where the Chair grey counts on restraint of hon. members and cannot split every hair which might come out of any hon. member's head. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please~ What I did interrupt on previous to the point of order brought up by the hon. gentleman to my left, is to point out to hon. members the need to observe on both sides the basic rules with respect to Question Period in the House of Assembly. All the Chair can do is to draw this to hon. members' attention and to insist that they observe the rules. I have said before, and it may well be an opportune time to say again, that the proper decorum and observation of the rules cannot be imposed just by one out of fifty-one members.

The one who is in the Chair needs the co-operation and participation in maintaining order of all members. And the Chair needs, invites and indeed, requires that participation. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Now, Mr. Speaker, lest any malice was interpreted from my statement about whether or not we would get justice under the present minister, no malice is intended. That the minister is incompetent is not necessarily his responsibility. Mr. Speaker, it matters not who the witness was unless he is telling us he wants to know whether it was a Liberal or a Tory.

It matters not - my question stands, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister of Justice 2038

April 9, 1979 Tape 798 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: undertake to immediately replace - we are not asking that the inquiry be cancelled; we have been asking it be broadened to the proper subjects. MR. F. WHITE: MR. W. N. ROWE: MR. SIMMONS: Hear, hear! The cause. But, Mr. Speaker, we are not asking it be cancelled, but broadened, of course, and then have a new commissioner. And here is my supplementary to the minister.

Will the minister first of all take the information I have given today about the press report from the inquiry - check its accuracy first, of course - and I tell him he will find that a witness whom I can identify for him either privately or publicly - there is nothing to hide, it was a public inquiry - will he take that information, check its accuracy, and then if he finds it to be accurate, as he will, will he in the interest of demonstrating that justice is not only being done but is appearing to be done - and I point out to them all, Sir, that it is not a court of law, and that is another red herring the minister often drags into things; it is not a court of law, it is a public inquiry and the judge is 2039

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 799 NM - 1 MR. SIMMONS: not on the Bench, will the minister, assuming he can establish the accuracy and all he has to do is get the transcripts of the enquiry this morning, assuming he can establish the accuracy will the minister undertake now publicly, will he make a public undertaking to have the commissioner replaced as soon as possible with someone who hopefully does not have the bias which this present commissioner obviously has. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): Order, please! Order, please!

The first duty of the Chair,obviously,is to protect the area of the freedom of speech of all hon. members. However, this is not his only duty, and at times this duty has to be informed by other rules because the only rule applying is not freedom of speech. It is an extremely important one but it is not the only one. I draw the attention of han. members to Beauchesne, page 114, under the heading "Protected Persons", and there are two citations there, (1) and (2) which I will read out.

"All references to judges and courts of justice of the nature of personal attack and censure have always been considered unparliamentary." I realize the references have not been to a court of justice but the commissioner is,in fact, a judge and references to judges in the form of densure are unparliamentary. Subsection (2) makes the same point from a different perspective. "When a judge has been employed as a Royal Commissioner, it is proper in the House to criticize his report but not its author." 2040

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 799 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheirner): I think it is quite clear from those two citations that the commissioner being a judge does not lose his position as a judge and that the first citation is operative in that all references to judges of the nature of censure are unparliamentary. The second one certainly makes that clear to the extent that when a judge has been employed as a royal commissioner it is proper for the House to criticize his report but not its author.

I would therefore insist that hon. members observe that rule and to refrain from censure of the commissioner who in this case is a judge. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I want to put a supplementary but before doing it, if the Chair will permit, just a very preliminary response to what the Chair has just stated by way of concurring completely with the Chair. In fact,of course,the gentleman to whom I refer is a judge. I submit he is not there in his capacity as a judge but that is another issue because the second point that Mr. Speaker has quoted fully covers the matter.

And there is to be no criticism of the author and I abide by the parliamentary rule on that particular matter as much as I have strong feelings on the subject. So therefore I shall - MR. HICKMAN: MR. SIMMONS: have abided by the - MR. SPEAKER: hear a point of order. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker - No, Mr. Speaker, I said I A point of order. I have to The hon. gentleman indicates he is going to now ask a supplementary question - MR. SIMMONS: Yes indeed. 2041.

April 9, 1978 Tape No. 799 NM - 3 MR. HICKMAN: - supplemental to the one that he just asked. Your Honour has ruled that the last question was out of order, which it so obviously is, and I would ask that the han. gentleman withdraw that question before he is permitted to proceed with any further supplementary questiqn. MR. SIMMONS: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): To the point of order. MR.

SIMMONS: The wording I have written down in front of me actually is not something about rephrase and I was about to undertake to rephrase my earlier question, to take it away from the author as the books refer to him and to get it to another - MR. SPEAKER: Right. MR. SIMMONS: May I be allowed to rephrase then, Mr. Speaker, to decide whether it is in order? MR. SPEAKER: the han. member. Order, please! I will recognize It occurs to me that I, and I think the han. member would probably wish to make this clear himself, it occurs to me that for our precedent it should be made clear.

I will recognize the han. member to ask an additional question. What I would ask the hen. gentleman to do is to make a statement so that the entire House and it is a public record,that however one might interpret his previous questions it is not his, or was not his intention to speak in terms of censure of the individual. I think that the House should have that clear and then the han. gentleman proceed with his question. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, you said it much more eloquently than I could, Sir, and I thank you. 2D42

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 799 NM - 4 MR. SIMMONS: I completely concur ~~at that is what nee:ied to be said and I hope the Eou.se will consider that I have just said the words you have, that I inte.nd no censure of the judge whatsoever , or the commissioner 1 and that I refer to him in that capacity, no censure whatsoever. My concern, I believe as conveyed in the questions is that, and I said this actual phraseology , that justice appeared not only be done but appear to be done, 20 43

April 9, 1979 Tape BOO PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: and I ask the minister now in a rephrasing of one of my earlier questions, if the minister would check the accuracy of the reports coming out of this morning's enquiry, and presuming their accuracy, would he then take the necessary steps, as he deems advisable, to ensure that the enquiry proceeds to its ultimate conclusion without any fear whatsoever that the report of that enquiry - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: It is so difficult, you know, Mr.

Speaker, when you have a group of men having to contend with a little boy in their midst all of the time, the boy from Bonavista South. Mr. Speaker, will the minister undertake,presuming the accuracy, will he undertake to take the necessary steps and take them immediately to ensure that the report is a fair, equitable. unbiased report of the circumstances under investigation? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENEHEIMER): The han. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN : I have no hesistancy in saying that any report by His Honour Judge Soper will be equitable, fair, totally unbiased.

He is a man who has been a member of the Bench for over twenty years and who has very properly earned the respect of all Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: Hear, hear! The hon. member for Eagle River. Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Rural-Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) concerning some owner-operators and people who were left in the Labrador situation after the Labrador Linerboard closed down.

I wonder if the minister is prepared to reverse his decision in which some owner operators and other people involved with Labrador Linerboard did not receive assistance from the government on the closing of Labrador Linerboard 2044

April 9,1979 Tape 800 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: · operation, especially in view of the fact that they were refused this assistance on the basis that they were carrying out functions ordered by Labrador Linerboad to them. They were people who were trucking, for instance, in some cases trucking wood1 who were asked by the Labrador Linerboard to truck gravel for the roads, and therefore on the closing of the Labrador Linerboard mill were not assisted because they had not trucked sufficient cordage under the criteria set down. That is one situation.

I might as well ask the supplementary question which I was going to put; whether assistance could be given to the people in Labrador who have had a different set of criteria applied to them on compeletion bonuses compared to the people,for instance,in Stephenville? The completion bonuses were not available to certain people in Labrador, which were available to all people in Stephenville. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hon. Minister of Rural-Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, the second part of the question, I think, would be more properly addressed to the Minister of Industrial Development in relation to completion bonuses. In relation to the first part of the questionj assistance which was provided to the truckers who had been working in different capacities with the Labrador Linerboard operations at Goose Bay,be it trucking gravel or wood or whatever, we could review the case1 I think, but as I understand it from my own submissions alone to government,prior to getting into Cabinet,it had been reviewed three times and the answers were all the same.

I do not know if it would serve a practical purpose to review it or not. But certainly if these individuals want to contact me then they are free to do so. ZU45

April 9, 1979 Tape 800 ?K - 3 ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion, the han. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Alllend The Income Tax Act", carried. (Bi 11 No. 27). On motion, Bill No. 72 read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of The Whole on Bill No. 6, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE 2046

April 9,1979 Tape No. 801 AH-1 MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr.Cross) Order, please! A bill, "An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Qualified Social Workers." (No. 6) On motion clauses (1) through (11) by leave, carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. On motion, that t~e Committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report Bill No. 6 without amendment and ask leave to sit again.

On motion, report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again presently. On motion, a bill, ''An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Qualified Social Workers," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper (Bill No.6) . MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) Bill No. 13. MR. NEARY: The adjourned debate on Ron. member for LaPoile. Mr.

Speaker, when we adjourned the debate on this bill the other day, Sir, judging by the reports in the press you would say that not a single word was uttered in this House about the criticism of the government in the way that they have been handling the secret loans made by the Rural Development Authority and by the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, secret loans being made to every con-artist that comes along in this Province with a harebrained scheme. And, Mr. Speaker, the government so far have stone~alled and refused to give us a list in this 2047

April 9, 1979 Tape No . 801 AH-2 Mil., NEARY: hou. House of these sec:.ret loans, Who are these loans made to, Sir? We do not know. What are they made for? We do not kQow. What is the track record of the Rural Development Authority and the Newfoundland and Labrador Developlilent Corporation? We do not know. We do not have any information concerning the business that is tranaac:~ed by either one of these government lending agencies because the government have refused to supply a list to this hon, .!louse .. MR.. OOQDY: We have not refused. MR, NEARY: the non. gentleman ha$ refused.

The hon. gentleman, whether he likes it or not, is a part of the cover-up. If the Mildster of Rural Development (Mr. Goudie) and the Minister of Industrial Development (Mr. Maynard) and the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) refuse to give us a list of loans of taxpayers' money made to people in this Province then the minister 1S as much responsible for that cover-up 2048

April 9, 1979 Tape 802 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: as the hen. the Minister of Finance. It is a cover-up, Sir, they are ashamed to lay on the table of this House - MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) A point of order has come up. MR. HICKMAN: The hen. gentleman is using the word 'cover-up' with respect to ministers in the performance of their ministerial duty who are performing it in accordance with the law.

There is nothing being covered up; they are complying - I repeat, complying - with the law and I sub"mit that the use of that phrase and the connotation in which it is used is most unparliamentary because it implies a motive on the part of the hen. ministers concerned. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: To that point of order, To that point of order. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to submit to Your Honour, there is precedent, Sir, under the British parliamentary system of government, there is ample precedent for accusing government of covering up when they refuse to give the House information, especially on loaning public money or giving out public money, taxpayers' money, for grants. There is ample precedent, Sir, and there is a tradition for it, that one of the first obligations of government, Mr. Speaker, is to provide information to the House on every dollar of taxpayers' money that is spent - AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR.

NEARY: - and so far, this government have refused to do that, Sir, and what else could you call it but a cover-up? MR. R.MOORES: That is right. 2049

April 9, 1979 Tape 802 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Order, please! As hon. members know, the authorities, although they give examples of words or phrases which are unparliamentary, they also state that the list, itself, is not the determining factor, it is the connotation or the context within which something is said. AN HON. MEMBER: Right. MR. SPEAKER : Thank you.

The term 'cover-up' obviously can have, I suppose, two connotations, one, an hon. member by saying something is a cover-up can be implying that he does not have what he considers to be sufficient information; it can also be used in the connotation that there is deceit or duplicity, and if it is the latter, then obviously it is unparliamentary. But if the hon. member is saying that there is not sufficient information available without attributing motive or making any suggestion of deceit or duplicity, then I think it is a neutral term.

But I would ask the han. member perhaps, so that han. members in the House are aware of it, to state in his use of the word 'cover-up' he is not making any allegation of improper or illegal conduct. MR.

NEARY: I think if the hon. gentleman had been listening to me, Your Honour, he would have heard what I said, that there is no information, we are not getting any information in this House concerning the secret loans that are made by the Rural Development Authority and the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, and therefore, I argue that the government is covering up this information, refusing to give the information to the House, and that is the context in which I use it, Your Honour. So I would submit that I am 20~0

April 9, 1979 Tape 802 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: completely within my rights and in order under the rules of Parliament. Now, Sir, when Joey Smallwood carried on his industrial development programme in this Province he did it in the open, he did it above board, he made no bones about it. He told the people of Newfoundland about the industrial development projects, where they were going to be located, the amount of money that was going to be spent on them and who owned the project. Now then, Sir, he did it openly and above board.

That does not necessarily mean that the bon. gentleman or anybody else agreed with his programme, with his policy or with his projects. He had more successes than he had failures . But this hon. crowd, Mr. Speaker, are spending millions piled upon millons of taxpayers' dollars on every hare brained scheme imaginable on the face of this earth to every con artist that comes along and then refuses to give the House any information on these loans and grants. AN HON. MEMBER: He turned seven sods for every project. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I told the House the other day, if I wanted to, I could go down in the Registry office in the last seven years since we have had a Tory administration in this Province and I could dig up a scandal a day - a mini-scandal a day - from now until the time this House closes. And I could do the same thing, Sir, with Newfoundland Farm Products, the Farm Loan Board, and I could do the same thing with the Fishery Loan Board.

I could have a mini-scandal a day, especially the Farm Loan Board, where a former Tor y candidate over on Bell Island where I was one time the member, who opposed me, went and got a tractor from the Farm Loan Board; and I brought it up in this hon. House AN HO~. MEMBER: That is right (inaudible) . 2051.

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 803 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: But he was not farming. He was allowed to get it if he was farming. He was an insurance salesman, an insurance salesman here in St. John's. And he went down and got a tractor that - and they never stuck a plow in the ground. My hen. friend knows what the tractor was used for. It was used when the hen. gentleman persuaded his colleagues - MR. DOODY: To plow you off Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Could I have order, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): Order, please! MR. NEARY: - when the hen. gentleman persuaded his colleagues to buythe stadium over there.

Then they started to renovate and upgrade the stadium, and God only knows how much it cost, and the gentleman who got that tractor from the Farm Loan Board hired it out to the stadium. And that is what the tractor did. And it lay there until it practically rusted out and then I believe it was put up for sale, not by the Farm Loan Board. And I would like to know to this day, we have never had any information tabled in this House on loans made by the Newfoundland Farm Loan Board,but I would like to know if that tractor was ever paid for. I doubt if it was, Sir.

I would be willing to bet my life here and now that that tractor was never paid for~ That was a bit of graft, a bit of political patronage that was pushed out to a Tory hack. And the same thing is happening, Mr. Speaker, in the Rural Development Authority and the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. Joey did it in the open, this crowd hide it. Mr. Speaker, covered up in the books of the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation and the Rural Development Authority, Sir, are mini-scandals. Covered up in the records of both of these government lending agencies, and my han. friend 2052

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 803 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: sits there and grins at it as if it was funny. Well I do not think it is funny. Mr. Speaker, I think one of the most serious obligations of a member of the House of Assembly, Sir, is to protect the public treasury from being looted. God only knows we have seen enough looting in the last several years. What about the new Premier, the han. gentleman who comes in and says, "Oh, everything is going to change now. We are not going to follow the same old Moores'policies of covering up, we are going to lay the information on the table of the House.

We are not going to follow the tradition of the former Tory leader, of refusing to give the House information, the gentleman who went out and said he brought democracy to Newfoundland. "Brought democracy to Newfoundland by doing away with the Public Accounts Committee and by refusing to give this House information, by refusing to give this House Bob Cole's contract, by refusing to give this House lists of these secret loans and grants. And that is the gentleman who brought democracy to Newfoundland. That is the gentleman who started the cover up in Newfoundland. There was no cover up before that.

A gentleman who went out with half of his administration under investigation. Mr. Speaker, I think it is time, Sir, it is time, it is time to put all these crown corporations and agencies and companies under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Finance, providing, Sir, providing the Minister of Finance will give us a report of these agencies and Crown corporations in this han.

House and not continue to cover up the information; that the hon. gentleman,when asked in this House by elected representatives of the people, will give us the information that we want on public spending, on every dollar that is spent belonging to the public. If 2053

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 803 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman does that, then I would say this is a good bill. But there is no indication the hon. gentleman is going to do it. I would suggest, Sir, to the contrary, that the han. gentleman will continue to cover up infopnation. Well, Mr. Speaker, the han. gentleman will have a chance in a fe·w moli!ents to answer me. I have accused the government, and I cannot be any stronger, I have accused the government of covering up many scandals in the Rural Development 2054

Apri 1 9, 1979 Tape 804 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: Authority and in the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. I cannot be any more blunt than that. And The Fisheries Loan Board and the Farm Loan Board. And what about Nordco? Will Nordco,which is a private company registered under The Companies Act by the Provincial Government,will they have to report to the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr.J. Collins)? Will Dr. Stu Peters have to report to the Minister of Finance or does he have carte blanche now to go out and do as he wishes? You know, Mr.

Speaker, it amuses me, Sir, it amuses me when I hear government- I heard the Premier this afternoon when we were talking about the road in Westport, standing up and saying,"Oh we cannot make a decision 1 we cannot make a decision for five or six weeks l We hear that day in and day out. We hear it about electricity rates. We need more money for electricity rates, we cannot afford to build hospitals, we cannot afford to improve the road in Westport. But, Mr.

Speaker, how long, Sir, will it take the message to filter through that this government in the last seven years, Sir, has been responsible for more extravangance and waste and more throwing away of taxpayer money than in our 450 year history1 SOME HON. MEMBERS MR. NEARY: Hear, hear!

And if they want to know where they can get the money, Sir, to do that road in Westport or do the road out in my own district, out in LaPoile, the road to Grand Bay West,cut out this foolish nonsense, cut out this extravangance and waste, cut out this political patronage and there will be all kinds of money to do the things that need to be done, to carry out the essential projects in this Province. The people down in Westport know, thev can see it every day. They hear about the helicopter contracts, they hear about renting office space in downtown St .

John's at exhorbitant prices, they see ministers going around in the whirly-birds, going around on personal business, and not government business. They see them going off to weddings in government aircraft and helicopters. They see them 2055

April 9, 1979 Tape 804 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: going off in government cars and they hear about them travelling around the world at pub·lic expense, on joy rides around the world. They know about the foolish Norma and Gladys nonsense. And I have as much pride, Sir, in our sailing ships as anybody in this Province, but let us get our priorities straight. There is another thing we have never been able to find out, how much that trip cost,to Europe~of the Norma and Gladys? I would say somewhere, I would make a guess, hazard a guess,somewhere in the vicinity of $3 million. Three million dollars, what for?

For a big booze party, a big bash, for a bi~ hash, Sir, a big bash. And you talk about Commissions of Enquiry; there is where a Commission of Enquiry should be set up, Sir. MR. HICKEY: On a point mf order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (MR. CROSS): A point of order has been called. A point of privilege. I have been MR. HICKEY: associated with this project and he keeps pointing the finger and he says,"There is where a Commission of Enquiry should be launched:' What is he talking about? He is absolutely out of his cotton-picking mind, Mr. Speaker, $3 million.

A half million dollars is what we are talking about of Provincial dollars. What is the han. gentleman talking about? Or is he confused with the Mifflin Enquiry on Bell Island - SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. HICKEY: - and the waste of $300,000 on building materials~ And the manipulating of the civil service, is that what he is talking about? Now if he wants to start pointing fingers we will start pointing a half a dozen at him. MR. NEARY: That is nnt a noint of order, Mr. Soe~ker. MR. CALLAN: A point of privilege, he said. MR. NEARY: A point of nothing. MR.

SPEAKER (Cross): Order, please~ There is no point of privilege, think it is just a difference of opinion between two hon. members. ZD56

Apri 1 9, 1979 Tape 804 PK - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a few words of advice for the hon. gentleman~ If I were the han. gentleman~at this particular point in time, I would not try to smear anybody on this side of the House or attack anybody's character.Because_ Mr. Speaker, we saw the hon. the Premier do that when the government was under attack for its co.rruption, political patronage, political appointment~. When we were accusing the government of being the most corrupt in our 450 year history, Sir, when the Premier was under attack, the Premier used to come back, lash back by getting personal with members of the Opposition. I remember the hon. gentleman said before he 2D57

April 9, 1979 Tape 805 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: I will get 'Rowe' and I will get 'Neary'." Well, he has not gotten either one of us yet. We are still around and he is gone. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: And I would submit to my hon. friend that he not resort to that tactic, the mugs game, because two can play that game, Mr. Speaker, and if I were the hon. gentleman, I would be very, very careful. MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Cross) raised. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. A point of order has been I have to insist, Your Honour, I am not going to be brow-beaten here every time I open my mouth.

I be very, very careful - I be careful about what? This hon. member has nothing to be careful about, let me inform my.hon. friend opposite. I am on no witch hunt, I am not getting personal. He raised it - he points the finger at me, Your Honour, and he talks about the Norma and Gladys project, he quotes $3 million, he suggests a public inquiry or a Royal Commission - What is he talking about? I do not want to get personal with the hon. gentleman. My record in this han. House has been one of defence, not attack. MR. W. N. ROWE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. W. N. ROWE: On the point of order, Your Honour. On the point of order.

There is no point of order. The hon. gentleman, under the guise of raising a point of order, got up and made a speech and entered into the debate. And I would urgently suggest to Your Honour that the hon. member be told to stop employing that tactic and interrupting the debates in this House, because there was no point of order - he got up on a difference of fact and opinion between two hon. members - no point of order at all, Sir. And all it is doing is wasting the time of the House 2058

April 9, 1979 Tape 805 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: and he is trying but failing to succeed in detracting my hon. friend from the important points he is making. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Cross) Hear, hear! Order, please! I see this, too, as sort of a debate where there is difference of opinion between two members, and I would ask the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) to continue. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Hr.

Speaker, and what I suggested, Sir, was that $2.5 million to $3 million of taxpayers' money, I do not care whether we are talking about Canadian taxpayers - and the hon. gentleman can play with words all he wants- or provincial taxpayers' money, $2.5 million to $3 million of taxpayers' money went down the drain, was flushed down the toilets in the capitals of Europe, went through the bladders of all these people who were invited out to these bashes, flushed down the toilets of the capitals of Europe, $2.5 million to $3 million of taxpayers' money- Canadian taxpayers, if the hon. gentleman wants me to be specific about it - and provincial taxpayers' money.

That would have done a lot to improve the roads in Westport and in Markland - MR. R. MOORES: MR. NEARY: this Province. Rear, hear! - and in a few other parts of But, Mr. Speaker, the point that I was making when I was so rudely interrupted by the hon. gentleman, Sir, was that millions piled upon millions of dollars are thrown away by this administration and no accounting given to this hon. House. That is the point I am making, Sir. And I do not have to give the hon. gentleman a lecture in the first obligation of elected representatives of the people, that it is to protect the Public Treasury. ZG59

April 9, 1979 Tape 805 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: ---------- That is our first obligation, Sir. And, Mr. Speaker, can anybody in this Province say that the Public Treasury has been protected in the last seven years since the Tories formed the administration? No, Sir, it has not been protected - anything but - it has been wide open for misuse, abuse and looting. I cannot be any more outspoken, I cannot be any more blunt. And is not personal when I talk about the Norma and Gladys. The han. minister has to answer for the Norma and Gladys. That is not a personal attack. It is factual, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, if we only could get our hands on these lists. I mentioned one case the other day of Pelcon, and then I swung into the second case of a company called Canadian Cushion Craft. Canadian Cushion Craft, I told the House, was registered under the Companies Act down here on the ground floor but the owners of that company were not named. On the share list, Sir, and lawyers have a knack and a technique for doing this, they never give the real name of the company, they put on the names of their secretaries. AN HON. MEMBER: No. MR.

NEARY: Well, go down and check Canadian Cushion Craft and you will find the names of three secretaries on the share list. The real owners were never named. And the law firm that they belong to is down at 1 Church Hill, I believe, downtown, a law firm, incidentally, Mr. Speaker, that has the name of the Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman) on the door. AN HON. MEMBER: A great firm. 2Goo

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 806 AH-1 l'IR. NEARY: Ah, a great firm he says. And, Mr. Speaker, hon. gentlemen might be interested in knowing that the hon. gentleman had to put an order through the Cabinet, had to get a Cabinet order the han. gentleman did, so that they could name the company, Canadian Cushion Craft. That is also in the file in the registry office. Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman can shake his head all he wants. The hon. gentleman had on behalf of his law partner to go before the Cabinet and ask the Cabinet to approve the name of that company, to call it Canadian Cushion Craft.

And then lo and behold they went to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, Mr. Good and Mr. Halley - it is just as well to come right out and say who they are, one since appointed to the Public Utilities Board and the other gentleman a land speculator and one of my hon. colleague's law partners - they went down then and borrowed $150,000 from the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation and then shortly after put the company in receivership.

All we got for that, Sir, wao a little show down on Quidi Vidi one Sunday afternoon when they had a few little plastic speed boats down there, down on Quidi Vidi Lake one Sunday afternoon. That $150,000 went down the drain, went into receivership. And, Mr. Speaker, $150,000 of taxpayers' money given out without the Newfoundland Development Corporation knowing at that time who the owners of the company were. I could go on and on, Sir. I could get a list of failures from the Rural Development Authority and the Newfoundland Development Corporation the length of the floor of this Assembly.

We cannot on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, we cannot say whether the Rural Development Authority and the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation have been a success or a failure, we cannot say what their track record has been, we do not know, because we cannot get the information. We cannot find out, for instance, how many loans were made, who they were made to, what they were made for and what the payback is 2{]61.

April 9,1979 Tape No. 806 AH-2 MR. NEARY: and how ma~y of them have gone into receivership and into bankruptcy. We cannot find out. It is unheard off in British parliamentary history, unheard off. We have a new Minister of Finance now, we have a new Premier and we hear a lot about a new broom sweeping clean. Well I say let us come clean. Give us some information when we ask for it on the Newfoundland Farm Products and on the Fishery Loan Board and on the Development Corporation and on the Rural Developm.nt Authority. Do not cover up the information. Tell us what is happening. Tell us about Nordco.

Tell us who is funding Nordco and how much and what controls the government have on Nordco. Mr. Speaker, I got the shock of my life when I wrote the Minister of Justice (Mr.Hickman) and the Atltorney General for this Province and I said, "Dear Mr. Minister; Will you let me have the report of Labrador Linerboard from 1973 up to the present time. It being a Crown Corporation and you being a member on the Board of Directors will you please let me have the annual report of Labrador Linerboard ?" And what was the reply I got back from the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Justice (Mr.Hickman)?

He said, "I was not a member of the Board of Directors of Labrador Linerboard in the time that you specified. And I want to point out to you that Labrador Linerboard is not a Crown Corporation but a private company." 2062

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 807 DW - 1 MR. S .NEARY: Tbat was the answer r· got. $250 million of taxpayers money thrown down the drain on Labrador Linerboard and the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman) and the Attorney General refused to give me the reports and have stone­ walled and refused to this day to give me the reports, the annual reports of Labrador Linerboard.

So it is a company, it is a private company.So then I went down in the company's office and I looked up the share list and who is on the share list but the bon. gentleman, the Minister of Finance and the l·~inister of Justice in 1973 and 1974 - not for the whole time of the operation of Labrador Linerboard - so then I wrote the hon. gentleman back again and I said,Hell,will you please give me the report for the years that you were on the Board of Directors? And I have not got an answer to this day, Why, Mr. Speaker~ Why?

Because,again 7 we have a cover-up of information, and well they should cover-up.By the time the RCMP and the police are finished with that one I guarantee you the dragnet will be out. Well they should cover up. But how can we, Mr. Speaker, as elected representatives of the people 1 how can we do our job in this House when we cannot get information that we ask for from ministers on the government benches? What does the Minister of Justice have to say~ The Minister of Justice. 1I mean,I would not mind if it was the Hinister of Tourism •Ofr. Power) or some flunky that you were asking - MR.

FLIGHT: The Hinister of Mines and Energy. MR. S. NEARY: - or the Minister of Mines and Energy. (Mr. Doody) - no , I am sorry I said that because I guarantee you this 1 if I asked the Minister of Mines and Energy for the information if it was within his power to give it to me, he would give it to me. He has 7 and I have no reason to suspect that he would cover up, but he is a part of that collective cover-up. And the hon. gentleman ZU63

April 9, 1979 Tape .No. 807 DW- 2 ~. S. NEARY: knows that. If the hon. gentleman were on this side of the House he would feel the same as I do. The Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman), the Attorney General of this Province refusing to give elected representatives information that they are entitled to have.I would not mind if we were not entitled to it.

It is not private information 1 it is public information, it should be made public.But no,the Minister of Justice,who should be setting a good example, the man who administers justice in this Province, the man who is supposed to see that everybody gets a fair deal and fair shake, he is the one who leads in the cover-up of information. He is the leading culprit by refusing to give us any information on the Labrador Linerboard mill, to give us the annual report of the Board of Directors of which the hon. gentleman was a member representing the people of this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do hope, Sir, that when the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) stands to speak this afternoon,as he will 1 that he will tell us that the day of the cover­ up is over, the day of cover-up is ended, that they are now going to get back to where the situation was in 1971,and beyond that,when 'Joey~ with all the criticism he had flung at him.did not cover up, came out in the open, laid his Industrial Development policy on the table, let the people have a look it 7be it good or bad.

Remember all the criticism the Tories flung at him for spending the $40 million that Commission of Government had accumulated after Confederation1 That was a big issue for years, For twenty-odd years the Tories carried on that crusade. Oh, what did they do with the $40 million? Well, Mr. Speaker, I would venture a guess, Sir, that that $40 million is small potatoes compared to what the con artists are after ~etting out of the public treasury via the Newfoundland Farm Products,via the Newfoundland Develpoment Corporation and via the Rural nevelopment AuthoritY; small potatoes, Sir, in the last six or seven years.

Then 2G64

April 9 , 1979 Tape No . 807 ~. NEARY: you wonder where the 1n0ney is going to come from to build hospitals . You wonder why people are paying ~~e highest t~xes in the whole of Canada. And a fev poor old suckers say, you know, Well, the government , they do not have ::he money. They do not have the mon.ey? Why do they not have tne money? Once i n awhile I hear ~~at, I hear that a few poor old sucker s ZC65

April 9, 1979, Tape 808, Page l -- apb MR. NEARY: like myself who do not know any better would say, "Well boy, you cannot do everytning because you do not have the money." No. but you can fire millions of dollars away every year. Mr. Speaker, I hope the Minister of Finance (Dr.J.Collins) Sir, will put an end to the covering up that has gone on in this Province in the last six or seven years.

And if the hon. the Premier does not instruct him to do it, then the hon. gentleman is just as bad as his predecessor who has now gone out and has set himself up a little holding company that I am taking a look at, that I have been examining for some time. A holding company! Well, we will find out in due course what he is holding. AN HON. MEMBER: Huh! MR. NEARY: And if the hon. the Minister of Justice (Mr. Hickman) wants the name of it,I can give him that too. I will guarantee you now that if they think for one minute, Mr.

Speaker, if they think for one moment that all the corruption and all the extravagance and waste is going to be forgotten because Moores is gone, then I ha~e news for that hon. crowd, Sir. We still have a few rotten apples in the barrel. There are still a few rotten apples on the other side of the House, Sir. We do not have all the culprits yet. I think I can claim an assist for gettin~a couple of ministers and a Premier. I can cut a notch in my belt. But there are a couple of more yet. We have not gotten the really rotten apples out of the barrel yet, Sir, but we will get them.

The hon. the Premier made his first mistake when the hon. gentleman had his 2C66

April 9, 1979, Tape 808, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: opportunity to clean her out, to gut her out. The hon. gentleman was scared, lost his nerve. He wanted to do it. He wanted to shake a couple of ministers. They would not let go. He could not get rid of them. He was afraid that there might be resignations, she might fall apart. He did not want that to happen, he wanted time to get in the comfortable pew down on the eighth floor. He was afraid that the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Doody) and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W.

Carter) might rebel, might revolt because of the way they were treated in the leadership. The hon. gentleman may sit over there and smile and say, "Oh, the Liberals have dissension in their ranks." We can settle our problems, Sir. No problem~ SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: I would submit the hon. gentleman is the one who has dissension in his ranks. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear~ MR. NEARY: I am sure today, Sir, we have a couple of ministers who cannot wait for the election to be called.

Or cannot wait for something to happen, some excuse to disassociate themselves from that administration, t·hey cannot stomach it any longer. MR. FLIGHT: going to Ottawa. MR. NEARY: No wonder 'Jim' is The Premier had the opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to gut her out, to clean her out and he did not have the courage to do it. MR. SPEAKER(Cross): Order, please! Would the hon. member 2067

April 9, 1979, Tape 808, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Cross) : MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: yield for a moment? Sure. I am pleased to announce that there are forty-two grade X and XI students from Holy Trinity High School, in Heart's Content in the galleries,accompanied by their teachers Mr. Eric Legge and Mr. Grant Tucker. We hope that your brief stay will be informative and interesting. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! The han. the member Mr.

Speaker, we hear very often about how Newfoundlanders are cynical about their politicians, disillusioned, discouraged, disgruntled, fed up with their politicians, fed up with the two old line parties, now turning in droves to the NDP. We hear that every day, Sir. Is it any wonder, Mr. Speaker? Is it any wonder? I do not believe, Sir, it is the fault of the way we do business in this han. House. Because this House has been working for a long time.

One thing I want to point out, especially for the media who fall into the trap everytime, that if somebody did not observe the rules of this House, Sir, they would be put out by Your Honour. Everytime that somebody says that the House is not working, especially the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), that is one of his pet peeves - the House is not working, she is like a bear pit, they are uncivilized in there - in my opinion that is a reflection on Your Honour.

Your Honour is the one who enforces the rules of the House and I would resent it,if I were Your Honour 1 everytime I heard somebody on that side say the House is not working, everybody is unparliamentary, there is 2C68

April 9, 1979, Tape BOB, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: nothing only smear campaigns and character assassinations going on. We have to follow rules in this House the same as 2G69

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 809 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: you follow the rules if you are playing a game of hockey, you have a referee, and Your Honour is the referee, and every time a newsman says that about the House he is insulting Your Honour. The House is working. I have not heard of anybody being flung out so far this session, anybody put outside the rail. So the House is working, Sir. So what is making people discouraged and disillusioned? Well, I will tell the House, Sir.

The people out in Grand Falls were promised an extension to their hospital and then the government reneged on the promise and then a minister resigned from the government because the government reneged on the promise. And then shortly after that, after the government saying they did not have the money, "We do not have the cash, the dollars, to put the extension on that hospital," the member for Gander (Mr. H. Collins), the Minister of Health, announces that $350,000 is going to be spent on a golf course in Gander. Mr.

Speaker, would that not have a tendancy, Sir, to make people disappointed, disillusioned, discouraged and fed up with their politicians, after being told by the administration, "We do not have the money to put the extension on your hospital," and only a few miles down the road then they decide they are going to build a golf course for the big shots and the mucky mucks so they can go down and enjoy the nineteenth hole. MR. H. COLLINS: Who are the big shots? MR. NEARY: The big shots and the high mucky mucks, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I read what they said about the han. gentleman's granting a golf course in The Gander Beacon. I read it, Sir. No, do not put an extension on the hospital to look after sick people, but build

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 809 GH - 2 MR. NEARY: a golf course so they can go down to the 19th hole and get sick. MR. CANNING: Priorities. MR. NEARY: Those are the priorities of this government and I would suggest, Sir, that is the sort of thing that is making people discouraged, disillusioned, fed up with their politicians in the old line parties - not this House. This han. gentleman, the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford), the new Premier, had a golden opportunity to clean her up. "Close down the House f,,r two months", he said.

"We are closing her down for two months so we can have a leadership and get a replacement for the Premier". And I kept saying outside the House- First of all, he should not have closed the House for two months. They should have closed it for two weeks when they got near the day of voting. They should have closed the House down then, taken a couple of weeks off. I hope they will give us a couple of weeks off when we get up around near June 15th, give us a couple of weeks off so we can go and elect our leader. I hope they will do that. I hope they will have the decency to do it.

I hope the hon. gentleman will not be cowardly enough to pull the plug while we are trying to get a leader. Mr. Speaker, there is a tradition, Sir, whether it be written or unwritten, there is a tradition amongst parliamentarians and parties that when a party is getting a leader that the other party will not be so cowardly, will not be so - MR. MORGAN: It is only a review. MR. NEARY: It is not a review, Mr. Speaker. Ah, Mr. Speaker, it is not a review. The hon. gentleman need not take any consolation in that and try to encourage his boss. 2071

April 9, 1979 AN HON. MEMBER: him or are you joking? MR. NEARY: Tape No. 809 GH - 3 Do you want to 9et rid of Mr. Speaker, it is a full-fledged leadership convention in case the hon. gentleman does not under­ stand it, I am telling him now. Mr. Speaker, it would be a very cowardly act on the part of the Premier to dissolve the House although we are ready. We have the candidates. MR. FLIGHT: Call it. Call it, Brian. MR. NEARY: Call it.

If that is the way the hon. gentleman wants to play the game, the hon. gentleman wants to be unfair, does not believe in British fair play, Go and call it and see what the backlash will be. Give us a chance, give us a chance to have our con~ention. We gave the hon. gentlemen a chance. We gave the hon. gentlemen two months. They closed down the House, Mr. Speaker, for two months in order to go out and get a leader. We are not asking for two months. We want the House kept open, but when we get near the day of reckoning, we would like a week or ten days or a couple of weeks off. Once, Mr.

Speaker, I was in this House 'll'hen we shut her down- 'Joey' was here, the dictator­ shut her down and let the Opposition go to Ottawa to elect 'Diefenbaker' leader of the Tory partyof Canada. I do not know if the hon. gentleman was here or not. We did it many's the time. Many's the time I saw leaders come and go, leaders of the Tory party and ZG72

April 9,1979 Tape No. 810 AH-1 MR. NEARY: every time we would agree to shut the House down for a few days to let them go out and select their leader. And itwould be very urifair, Sir, and it would be very cowardly indeed and it would not be in accord with British fair play and British justice for the han. gentleman to dissolve the House and not give us a chance to get our leader. Mr. Speaker, I believe, at least, I have the bon. gentleman sized up enough to know that the bon. gentleman will give us a fair chance. But if the bon. member for St.

John's East (Mr.Marshall) were here he would be nudging and pushing and bullying the bon. gentleman. He has gone off to Florida,! understand 7 on a couple of weeks vacation,which is a good thing.Because if he were here he would be saying, "6h jump on them nowJ jump on them while they are disorganized and while they are in disarray,or they look like they are in disarray. Jump on them~ Do not give them a chance to have a leadership convention.'' That is what the bon, gentleman from St. John's East (Mr.Marshall) would be saying if he was here.

Fortunately he is not here so I am appealing to the hon. gentleman's sense of fair play and British justice not to pull the plug •. If the hon. gentleman wants to pull it, okay, fine, it is all right with me. MR. DOODY: If you pulled the plug on that crowd you would have a ring around the harbour. MR.. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, did I hear the han. gentleman talk about rings around harbours, Sir? The han. gentleman sat with the most corrupt administration in our 450 year history and did nothing about it.

The most corrupt administration in our 450 year history and it is not all going to be swept under the rug if that is what the bon. gentleman thinks. The investigations and the enquiries will still go on and on until justice is done and until the culprits are caught. Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) what about the Traffic Court? Does the Traffic Court report to the hon. gentleman under this new bill? Because we are told, Sir, that the Traffic Court, 2{]73

April 9,1979 Tape No. 810 AH-2 MR. NEARY: the accounting in the Traffic Court is in a terrible, in a horrible mess. You would not know but it was a bunch of little kids in kindergarten,! am told, going around with pencils making on bits and pieces of paper and drawing little figures. The Traffic Court could not be in a worse mess - the accounting in the Traffic Court. Every year the Auditor General tells us that in his report. And if the Auditor General did not tell us we would know it anyway, Sir.

Every time that the bailiff or whatever he is comes and knocks on your door and delivers a summons for a traffic ticket that you had forgotten about, that you did not even know you had two years ago, they come down and knock on your door and the poor old fellow has got to back in he is so ashamed. He says I am sorry I have to do this but here is a traffic ticket a year and a half old, two years old. And you· say to him, "How did that happen? Where did I get it?" ''Well I do not know, Sir.

I know the place is in an awful mess over there.Everybody over there feels ashamed sending out these summonses:'And the Auditor General again this year reminded us - MR. FLIGHT: And convictions two years old. MR. NEARY: Convictions, Sir. You get a summons and if you do not pay up,double the amount sometimes,you are hauled into court for a sloppy accounting system. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, I am sure as every bon. member and everybody listening to me in the gallery and anybody who hears me outside of this House that I have paid tickets twice. I am sure I have. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Do not be breaking the law. MR.

NEARY: Very, very funny. Mr. Speaker, poor people, ordinary people, people on unemployment, people trying to struggle along, do not think thev owe a cent in thi~ wnrJ~ ~nd they go up to pick up their car licence and they are told, "You owe $100 in parking tickets." "I beg your pardon" - I have heard the arguments. They come to see me - "I beg your pardon, I do not owe $100 in parking tickets or expired meters or no parking zones." "Oh yes you do." Two 2074

April 9 , 1979 Tape No. 810 AH-3 MR. NEARY: years ago, a year and a half ago, a ye~r ago. Ancient history. I wish the Minister of Justice (Hr. Hickman) were in his seat to hear this becuase he is the hon. gentleman who is responsible for it. If the hon. gentleun heard me, wbat is the han. gentleman going to do about: it. having these tickets slapped at you two years after, a year and a half after and a year aft.er? I would say clean up, 2G75

April 9, 1979 Tape 811 PK - 1 Mr. Neary: start off with a clean sheet. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A point of order. MR. HICKMAN: The Bill before this House there is a very simple bill with a very simple principle asking the House to give authorization to the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) to sign guarantees of loans. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Traffic Court. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the han. gentleman is referring to, and it is not all all germane or relevant to the issue before the House. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order, Sir. It is very relevant. The han. gentleman knows that, Sir. We are talking about government financing, borrowing •. loans, where the money comes from to give out in loans and grants, Mr. Speaker. The han. Minister of Finance is responsible for all of this. And I would submit, Sir, I am in order. MR. SPEAKER: Certainly the principle of the bill deals with the guaranteeing of loans by the government. And the debate at this stage has to deal with the principle of the bill.

When hon. members bring in matters which are either extraneous to the bill then obviously they are out of order. Or if they bring in matters which do not appear to be relevant to the bill then obviously they have to endeavour if they can to make it relevant. But no doubt the principle is authorization to guarantee loans. So I would ask hon. members, all hon. members in debating this bill to relate their remarks to that principle. MR. NEARY: I thank Your Honour. Mr.

Speaker, Crown corporations are another area where the Auditor General has had great difficulty, great difficulty, Sir, in auditing the reports of Crown corporations and companies that have been formed by the Provincial Government. The Auditor General says "That in the past he has been unable to meet the auditing requirement that is necessary under T:he Public 2076

April 9, 1979 Tape 811 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: Administration Act for reasons of not having staff and for reasons of not having the authority to audit the books of some Crown corporations." There are Crown corporations, Mr. Speaker, that the Auditor General is not allowed to touch, and unfortunately Labrador Linerboard happens to be one of these companies. The Auditor General was not permitted, not allowed to look at the records of the Labrador Linerboard. And we have similiar situatio~s existing with other Crown Corporations.

And so, Sir, there has been a tendancy in the past several years to be sloppy and careless with the public money, millions piled upon millions of dollars have been wasted, thrown away as a result of lack of control by the ministers and by the administration over Crown corporations and over the boards, such as the Farm Loans Board. If we could ever gel the information, if we could ever lay the Farm Loans Board out on the Table of this House and scrutinize it, and examine it, I am telling you, Mr.

Speaker, it would knock your eyeballs out.The patronage, and the many scandals that are covered up would make your hair stand on end. And I can get up here, Sir, I know if the hon. gentleman think that I am ranting and raving today, it probably will not get one paragraph, one syllable in the newspaper, but neither will it get a rebuttal or an answer from the administration because they know what I am saying is true. That this government has a bad record, has a sad history of covering up information.

And now we have a bill before us to force some of these boards and some of these Crown corporations to report to the han. gentleman. Well, Sir, I would have no hesitation at all in voting for this bill, if I thought the han. gentleman would give us the information that we ask for, give the House the information that it asks for repeatedly day in and day out, follow the recommendations of the Auditor General, pages 42 and 43 that I have in front of me. 2G77

April 9, 1979 Tape 812 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, what about the reference - in here, I think it is. I read here somewhere about the Department of Municipal Affairs. and the Department of Housing. Do they now have to report to the bon. gentleman or are they a law unto themselves? Does the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing do as it sees fit? Can it do as it likes, like the Newfoundland Hydro? We have created more monsters, Sir, in this Province in the last several years than you could shake a stick at. They are all out doing what they like.

They are riding off in a hundred different directions and wasting and squandering taxpayers' money, and then we wonder why we are paying the highest taxes in the whole of Canada. Perhaps, Sir, I have said enough to give the minister an idea, an inclination of how I feel about this bill. I feel very strongly about it. I do not think the bill goes far enough; I think it is about time - as the Auditor General, himself, pointed out this year in his annual report - it is time that the Auditor General was given the authority to place some value on the dollars that ministers in government spend.

Are they getting value for their money? In Ottawa now they can do it. The Auditor General can come out and say, 'I figure the money you spent doing this was a waste of time - it was squandered, it was extravagant, it was wasteful, unnecessary.' You cannot do it in Newfoundland. If the Auditor General could, I tell you, you would have a much larger report than you have at the present time. The Auditor General cannot get the information - he does not know if it is right or wrong - and neither can the members of the House of Assembly. Maybe we should pass a law to put some teeth in the Public Administration Act.

Maybe this bill should be beefed up a little bit to force the minister to give the House any information that is in the public interest, such as the 2078

April 9, 1979 Tape 812 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: ones I referred to, the secret loans that are made by the Rural Development Authority and the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. Nothing sets the devil in me more, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure nothing sets the devil in members of this House any more than asking for a list of secret loans made to party hacks, the political patronag~and then not being able to get the list.

I heard ministers, I heard members on the government benches, defend their policy by saying that political patronage is an acceptable thing; it has been going on ever since time immemorial and it is going to continue to go on. I have heard ministers on the government benches make that statement, 'political patronage is an accepted practice in our society.' Well, maybe it is, Sir, but at least, Mr.

Speaker, if the bon. gentlemen believe that and they are going to continue with political patronage, then let us have a list of those who are the benefactors, of those who receive the political patronage or are they ashamed of that? cover up? Or will they continue to for the bill. So, Mr. Speaker, I will vote I do not think it goes far enough, and I would hope that this will change the policy of this administration overthe last several years.~ ~dministration that has followed the example set by the Nixon regime down in the United States - covering up. They will get caught at their cover ups, Mr. Speaker.

Some of them have been caught already, covering up information and lying - and telling untruths - doing some fancy stick handling and fancy footwork and fancy figure skating rather than give the House the information, giving political answers and so on. But it will not work, Mr. Speaker, and if the han. gentleman, the new Premier, can do nothing else -he tells 2G79

April 9, 1.979 Tape 812 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: us the new broom sweeps clean - well, let us clean up the co~ruption and the extravagance and waste and let us stop the cover-up. If this bill willdo that and if the hon. gentleman will give the information to the House that we ask for from time to time during the Oral Question PeriDd, during our debates and questions that we put on the Order Paper - if the hon. gentleman has the authority to dD that under this bill, well then 2G60

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 813 GH - 1 MR. NEARY: I would say it is a good piece of legislation, but I am afraid that is not going to be the case. MR. SPEAKER: he closes the debate. MR. FLIGHT: If the hon. minister speaks now, Hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. Mr. Speaker, I am glad there was a point of order raised by the Minister of Justice a minute ago questioning the relevancy of what can be said in this debate and it was clarified to the satisfaction of the House and since this is a money bill it has ramifications on every aspect of life in this Province.

Therefore, as long as one is talking about the realm of finance in this Province, one can get away with anything that relates to the spending of money. Mr. Speaker, I want to zero in on something that has concerned me very much and concerned all of Newfoundland very much this past month or two and that is the issue as to whether or not we have compulsory insurance in this Province. principle involved here - Mr. Speaker, there is a money MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

So that the hon. gentleman will not be lead astray, I should point out what the principle of the bill is, as I stated before, is that the wisdom or lack thereof of designating the Minister of Finance as the responsible authority to guarantee loans undertaken by various government-appointed boards and commissions and hon. members are required to relate their remarks to that principle. The reason I am pointing it out at the beginning is that I understood the hon. member"s original statement suggested to me a somewhat different

interpretation of the Chair's previous ruling than the Chair held and remarks will have to be made relevant to that principle. Hon. member. 2C81.

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 813 GH - 2 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I submit that anything I say will be relevant to the debate and I regret that the Minister of Transportation is not in his seat. The Minister of T.&C. is not in his seat or the Minister of Consumer Affairs and it is difficult to know who the Minister of Consumer Affairs is. The fact is, Sir, that in this Province today we have a law that makes compulsory insurance - makes automobile liability insurance compulsory. A survey has shown that more than 40 per cent of the drivers in Newfoundland today as not carrying compulsory insurance.

When it was put to the minister, he fudged on it, Sir; he indicated that he is accepting the insurance company's version of why we cannot determine how many drivers in this Province have not got compulsory insurance. It will create too much paperwork for the insurance companies. The member of Lapoile (Mr. Neary) just indicated, Sir, that there are summonses going out across this Province today for tickets in the Traffic Court two years old and that is indeed a fact.

Let some person apply to an insurance company for liability insurance; apparently, the insurance companies have a deal, the paperwork do not bother them when they go to the Registrar of Motor Vehicles and ask for the driver's record. There have been cases where liability insurances have been sold, billed and paid for and six months after, having got what might or might nut have been confidential information from the Registrar of Motor Vehicles, that individual's automobile insurance doubled as a result of having picked up speeding tickets over the past two years. Now, if we 2C82

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 813 GH - 3 MR. FLIGHT: can have that kind of a under- standing, Mr.

Speaker, with the Registrar of Motor Vehicles - if the insurance people and the insurance companies of this Province can have that kind of an understanding with the Registrar of Motor Vehicles so they can get all the information they require, then I submit that the Minister of T. & C. or the Minister of Consumer Affairs it should be a two-way street and the insurance companies in this Province should be required by statute if necessary to notify the Minister of T. & c. or the Registrar of Motor Vehicles the minute that an insurance policy is allowed to lapse or voided for any reason in this world.

We would have then, Mr. Speaker, what is truly a compulsory liability insurance program in this Province. We would have the people who are concerned about their personal property or lives, the bills that they may have incurred in the event they are involved in an accident where the vehicle owner is not carrying liability. We still have people in this Province, Mr. Speaker, who are suffering immensely financially and every other way because they are continually day after day getting involved in accidents involving drivers in this Province without any liability insurance.

Forty per cent of the people in this Province 2G83

April 9, 1979 Tape 814 RT-1 MR. G. FLIGHT: today are driving on the Trans Canada Highway without any insurance and people are getting wiped out financially. Any way you want to look at it they are getting wiped out and this Administration put through this House one of the great reforms, put through this House a bill requiring compulsory liability insurance. We do not have in this Province compulsory insurance in any sense of the word, Mr.

Speaker - Any person in this House today or any person in this Province can cancel - It is conceivable that every person in this Province today can cancel their liability insurance instantly, and as of that moment there would not be any insurance on his - and there is no authority - Insurance companies are under no obligation whatsoever to notify the Minister that such has happened and the people of this Province would be driving under the illusion that they are protected in a sense, or that they can take a chance on daring to go on the highways in this Province and that they are protected because the other drivers have liability insurance.

Now that is one issue, Mr. Speaker. I want to get off that now and mention the performance of this Government and how, in their political patronage, they manipulate things to suit their own whims at the time, how they drag, bleed every little incident that comes up in this Province for every inch of political mileage that is in it. The Premier of this Province, the prior premier, the premier before the hon. Premier of the day, made an announcement, called a press conference, Mr. Speaker, and made an announcement to the Province.

The announcement was, "I want to announce that Buchans, the mining town of Buchans has gotten a shot in the arm. Mining activity is going to continue; the life expectancy of the mine has been increased by a year and possibly more." The very minute that the premier was making that press release, Mr. Speaker, and confusing the people in Newfoundland

April 9, 1979 Tape 814 RT-2 MR. G. FLIGHT: and creating a false impression everywhere else in Newfoundland besides Buchans, the executive of the union was sitting with their membership telling them that in six months half the work force would be laid off. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to presume that if I went into any community in Newfoundland today, in Musgrave Harbour or St. Anthony, and said, "Gentlemen, I have an announcement to make that in effect is a shot in the arm - MR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Ottenheimer) order has come up. MR. T. A. HICKMAN: A point of order, Order, please!

A point of I appreciate the hon. gentleman's concern for Buchans but the matters that he is referring to now are not even remotely connected with the bill or the principle of the bill that is presently before the House. It is not only irrelevant but there is no conceivable way and no one could be ingenious enough to bring the comments of the hon. gentleman, the ones that he has just made on automobile insurance and now on Buchans, within the confines or within even the broad scope of the bill that is presently before the House. MR.

SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order the principle of the bill is quite easily discernible in this particular one and that is whether it should be the Minister of Finance who has the authority to sign guarantees for loans undertaken by various Government bodies. So remarks have to be related to that. It may well be that a number of things can be said but they have to be related to the principle. So I would point out to the hon. member that if our rules and the rule of relevancy is to mean anything then it has to mean 2(85

April 9, 1979 Tape 814 RT-3 MR. SPEAKER;(Ottenheimer) that ~hat is said in debate has to be related to that principle. It is not my ~ish to be ove.rly technical but I do h;lVe to, as all hon. members have to, re·alize that that rule of relevancy means that debate an second J:eading must relate .to the principle. So it is incumbent upon all hon. members when they speak to relate their remaTks to the principle of the bill. lion. member. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr.

Speaker, the point I was making on the Buchans situation is that I can conceive of a situation that if the trend in Buchans continues the Minister of Finance may well be - Once we vote on this bill today and assuming it is carried the Minister of Finance may well be faced with a situation where he will have the responsibility of spending or judging over what happens to monies passed over to boards to spend because there will be boards of some kind. There will be a lot of money required to take care of the situation that may be involved in Buchans.

It will be Provincial money and whether it comes directly out of the Treasury or whether it is set up as a 2086

Apri 1 9, 1979 Tape 815 IB-1 MR. FLIGHT: contingency to look after the problems that will be created by this government's attitude to Buchans, Sir. So in that way see it is as relevant. do not know what is going to happen six months down the road. Are we going to set them a board in Buchans that will make it possible for people to relocate out of the town when 500 men loose their jobs? Are we going tr set them a board to decide who is entitled to have special financial assistance or who is not? want to ~now that before I let go on this one, Mr.

Speaker. know what the ex-Premier has done to the town of Buchans. know what he has done. I know what he did from a political point of view. He tried to give the impression throughout the Province that they had just pulled off a great coup, that they had just extended the life of Buchans, that there was no more problem. Wherever I went in Newfoundland apart from Buchans itself, wherever I went the next day people came up to me and said, "Boy, it is some good, ah. Did you hear the Premier last night.

The problems are all solved, an extension to the life expectancy of the mine in Buchans." Because the Premier got in cahoots with Abitibi Price and decided that he would play the Buchans situation for every inch of political mileage that was in it with no regard, no concern for the feeling or for the impression that he created in Buchans or outside. All that was important to him was that the word went out in St. Anthony. Buchans has been on the scene this past couple of years. It has been a major an issue. Everybody in Newfoundland recognizes what is happening.

Everybody recognizes this government's inability to solve or to even consider solutions for the Buchans situation, knowing that a mine is going to close, knowing that 500 men are going to be in limbo, no jobs, no secondary industry. They are incapable and have proven that they are incapable of addressing themselves to the problem. And the Premier tried knowing that the Buchans situation was important to everyone in this Province, he tried, Mr. Speaker, to use the Buchans situation politically. He called a press conference and indicated that the government was indeed concerned,that the mine would go on 2087

Apri 1 9, 1979 Tape 815 IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: and that Buchans had gotten a shot in the arm. And the truth of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, that in July half the Buchans work force will belayed off. The company's stated policy is that they may be able to go into 1980 with a very, very reduced work force. That is the kind of thing that this administration, this han. crowd is prepared to do politically, Mr. Speaker, to garner a little support, to garner a few votes and to garner a little good will anywhere in this Province. They take a situation like the Buchans situation and play the dirtest kind of politics with it.

It is too bad the Premier is not here to answer for himself. Mr. Speaker, we hark back to the present Premier.

He walked into Buchans one day after three years of promising the people of Buchans that they were going to take the Buchans situation seriously, after spending $200,000 dollars on a Buchans Task Force Report, ignoring all the recommendations, ignoring all the representation they got from Buchans this past five years, ignoring every word that I might have said in the House, the han. the Premier walked into Buchans, the first minister to show up there since this administration has been put in place and he stood up in the hall shortly before Christmas and said, "Look, I am not responsible for Frank Moores. cannot help it if Frank Moores has lied over the years.

I cannot help it if Frank Moores has misled you. I cannot help it if the ministers concerned - MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): Order, please! Order, please! I must point out that the han. member is referring to an han. member of the House of Assembly and just as one cannot directly allege any han. member lied, one may not do it indirectly or retorically or hypothetically. I would therefore ask the han. gentleman to withdraw the allegation. MR. FLIGHT: I withdraw the allegation, Mr. Speaker. I am not stating what I think, Mr. Speaker.

I am only bringing the House up to date as to what occurred, a certain set of events and I certainly am not at all worried about withdrawing. I withdraw without 2C88

April 9, 1979 Tape 815 !B-3 MR. FLIGHT: qualificati.on. But the fact is, Mr. Speaker, that the m.inister went in as Chainnan of the Resource Policy Committee and at a meeting told the people there that the problem is a lack of communication, no c00111unication. That has been the problem the past three years. He ignored the Task Force Report that was sitting at his elbow, $200,000 spent, the bulk of that money spent on bringing delegations of the Buchans Task Force into St. John's for weeks and weeks and weeks at a time.

He ignored the fact that most of that $200,000 was spent in sending top fli.ght civil servants into Buchans for weeks at a time. He i9nored the fact that trips were made to Scotland to look into scenarios in Scotland that may be something like the Buchans situation. No c:onmunic:ation that is the problem 2(89

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 816 GH-1 MR. FLIGHT: and at his elbow there was the Buchans Task Force report that he had voted on, spending $200,000 of which was bringing 35 people from the town of Buchans for a full year and half continuously for weeks and weeks and weeks sequestered in the Battery Motel or in the Airport Inn or in Holiday Inn with topflight civil servants - no communications. He ignored the fact that out of frustration when the people of Buchans realized that the Buchans Task Force was not going to be dealt with - MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: A Point of Order has come up.

I hate interrupting the hon. gentleman, but the hon. gentleman is not following the ruling laid down by Your Honour a few minutes ago. He is totally and absolutely out of order. It is not relevant to a bill which is simply a bill authorizing the Minister of Finance to guarantee loans. It has nothing to do with the Task Force on Buchans. MR.

SPEAKER: I do have to point out to the hon. member and I read from Beauchesne and from May and they both say the same thing: Beauchesne, page 224, "The second reading is the most important stage through which the bill is required to pass; for its whole principle is then at issue and is a!:firmed or denied by a vote of the House", and May, page 470, "The second reading of a bill is a stage at which the general principlesof the bill are considered", and it is not the Chair's wish to be restrictive or to endeavour to make it difficult for hon. members to speak their minds, but the rules do require that all hon. members speaking on second reading speak on the principle and they have to relate their remarks to the principle of the bill.

So I require the hon. member to relate his remarks to the principle of the bill and the principle I state before is not a particularly complex one. However one may put it, it is and revolves 2t90

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 816 GH-2 MR. SPEAKER (Ottenheimer): around the Minister of Finance being the person responsible for guaranteeing loans or other forms of indebtedness undertaken by certain boards and commissions set up by the government. Han. member for Windosr-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, in questioning that Point of Order or speaking to it, are presently constituted boards named in that bill? Are any boards that the minister might have in mind of appointing two years down the road or two days down the road named in that bill? MR. F. WHITE: Boards already appointed. MR.

FLIGHT: Boards already appointed. Boards already appointed or boards that made it. Mr. Speaker, we are giving within this bill the authority to the minister - Municipal Financing Corporation - is that considered a board that can - is that one? Mr. Speaker, the boards that exist in this Province - Municipal Developing Corporation - was the Buchans ~ask Force - was that a board under this? Well, Mr. Speaker, until it is clarified exactly what we are talking about here, I mean I can talk for a week on the Municipal Financing Corporation as it relates to town councils and municipal taxes and the rest. So, Mr.

Speaker, I do not accept that there was a Point of Order and I submit with the vagueness of the bill that there is no irrelevancy as long as we are talking about money being spent and how the the government is spending it and how the Minister of Finance will spend it. MR. SPEAKER: I would have been pleased to hear the hon. member's submission on the Point of Order before having made the ruling but when the han. gentleman to my left sat down and the hon. gentleman to my right 2G91

April 9, 1979 MR. SPEAKER (OTTENHEIMER): ruling and it is there. Tape No. 816 GH-3 did not get up, then I made my MR. FLIGHT: I accept Your Honour's ruling, Mr. Speaker, and finish up on that Buchans situation. The compromising situation I found myself in, Mr. Speaker, sitting with the man who eventually became the Premier of the Province, telling 500 people that there was no communication - that is the problem. Ignoring a task force report, ignoring the fact that an action committee had been set up and then, Mr. Speaker, telling them that, "I am here now, the Messiah, I have come. I keep my word.

The fact that I have supported an administration this past'four years that have not kept their word, forget that. As of this moment I will keep my word. I will see that the proper things are done." Mr. Speaker, any credibility that he may have had when he walked into that meeting was blown when he walked out. I do not know what his own personal impressions were. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us talk about the boards, the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation.

Since the Minister of Finance is going to be given now control over rnoneysspent or moneys borrowed or the use of money in any way as it applies to the Newfoundland Financing Corporation, let me ask the minister this - 2G92

Apri 1 9, 1979 Tape 817 IB-1 MR. FLIGHT: Ishe going to stand by the decision or the legislation that permits the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation to intercept revenue grants to town councils? Right now there are hundreds of communities in this Province, Mr. Speaker, whose only means of survival up to a year ago was their revenue grants. That cheque coming out from government all the time was what kept it going. They kept the water going. They kept the snowclearing going. They maintained the facilities. And suddenly, Mr.

Speaker, this government four or five years ago had guaranteed a loan in the name of a given town and said that they approved a $20,000, $30,000, $50,000, $100,000 loan for the purpose of establishing a community service. The loan carried a government guarantee and on carrying that government guarantee the principles, Mr. Speaker, accepted by the town council was in the event that the town could not meet the conditions of the loan, when the loan became due if the revenue to pay the interest was not there or the principal payment was not there the government would pick up that bill. I mean that is the principle.

That is the idea behind a government guaranteed loan. Why guarantee it? What is the point of guaranteeing it if for arguments sake when the payment becomes due the government is prepared to default on it and force the municipality to pick up the interest. Hundreds of communities, Mr.

Speaker, over the past three or four years, over the past twenty years for that matter, have borrowed that kind of money under government guaranteed loans, borrowed it in the helief that when the time comes that based on the town's revenue they cou 1 d not meet the interests or the pri nci pa 1 payment that the government having guaranteed the loan, recognizing in the first place that the town would never have the ability, no way to generate the money that would be required to amortize that loan, to pay the interest and the principal. Suddenly they found themselves, Mr.

Speaker, and again it was under the present Premier, the then Minister of Municipal Affairs, that legislation was brought in 2G93

April 9, 1979 Tape 817 IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: that allowed the Newfoundland Municipal Financing Corporation to intercept revenue grants. In other words, Mr. Speaker, if a community in this Province today owes $100,000 that was guaranteed by government ten years ago and they have $1,000 coming out from government, from the Department of Municipal Affairs as a revenue grant, the Municipal Financing Corporation can now intercept that $1,000 and leave the community in a position where they do not have the necessary funds to keep their water system going, collect garbage, maintain a fire fighting facility. And, Mr.

Speaker, they are in a position now - and I know of lots of councillors, r4r. Speaker, who are thinking about throwing it in. It has gotten impossible to manage a town financially in Newfoundland today. So, Mr. Speaker, I want .to hear the minister when he gets up now that he is going to be given the authority, the responsibility for the use or abuse of monies allocated to various boards responsible to the government, tell us where he stands on that kind of a situation.

Is he going to stand by legislation that permits this Province to intercept government grants, municipal grants, to deny the people and the council in any given town, to deny them the benefits, to deny them the revenue they need to maintain the basic services having talked them into, having ~ajoled them into accepting a government guarantee loan in the first place? There was a situation, Mr.

Speaker. that prior to an election a representative of this administration walked into a community - and of course there is not a community in this Province today that does not want water and sewer or do not want street lighting or snowclearing or what have you or another fire truck - and prior to an election walked in and suggested to them, why not go ahead and make the application. Guaranteed it will be approved. And having made the application, Mr. Speaker, it was approved. It was approved under a government guaranteed loan. For the time being the community council did not care.

I mean, you kno~/, they knew- all government was saying, "Sure go ahead, we will give you the 2(94

Apri 1 9, 19i9 Tape 817 IB-3 MR. FLIGHT: pennission. · Here is a government guarantee." A letter to the council authorizing the bank to make a short term loan. The council walks dawn -to the bank and gets their loan, comes out, lays the bit of pavement that they are going to do. What a wonderful crowd! What a wonderful minister who came in here. or a representative of his a few days ago~ Up unti1 that point, Mr. Speaker, for every dollar collected in that town they were getting a dol1ar from the government.

And then suddenly, bingo, they get a letter from the Municipal Financing Corporation saying that as of now because you are in arrears and because you cannot pay the interest on your last loan, the Municipal Financing Corporation is going to as of now intereept your grant and it will no longer be payable. I have known of councils where there have been ZG95

April 9, 1979 Tape 818 RT-1 MR. G. FLIGHT: crisis. Mr. Sneaker , and council meetings called, and say what are we going to do? That fifteen hundred, two thousand dollars a month we were getting for our grant was paying our administration, paying our town clerk, paying our town manager, paying off a loan.­ paying off the interest on a loan, and the principal, that we negotiated ourselves without a Government guarantee. And suddenly the cris~s situation, Mr. Speaker. The present Premier, Mr.

Speaker, was the minister, and this will be a household conversation before this over, I will guarantee you, that the present Premier is the minister, Mr. Speaker, who put the word out across this Province that water rates are going to twelve dollars. The $144-a-year man. Any municipal council that came into Confederation Building while the present Premier was the Minist~~ of Municipal Affairs that told us, Mr.

Speaker, that, "Whatever it is you are looking for - it may be a possibilility it is there for you, it might be, however, we have to get a commitment from you now that you are prepared to move your water rates to twelve dollars" - that is the magic figure - "twelve dollars a month." And out of a desire, Mr.

Speaker, to get the things that they wanted for their community, out of a desire to be able to go back to the community and say, "Well, yes, look we got approval to extend our water system, or to improve our roads, or to put a little pavement in~ - out of a desire for that the councils concerned were prepared to abide by the wishes of the Minister that we will move the water rates to twelve dollars a month. Insidiously, Mr. Speaker, they were also given the impression that if your water rates go to twelve dollars a month, of course your revenue grant will then be based on that twelve dollars a month.

But they lost both ways because they had to go back and sock it to the taxpayers of their community. And there are communities in this Province, Mr. Speaker, that the tax base is senior citizens. Practically their whole 2(96

April 9, 1979 Tape 818 RT-2 MR. G. FLIGHT: tax base is senior citizens. Mr. Speaker, another thing the Minister of Municipal Affairs under the same programme should take some responsibility for is to start taking the town councils off the hook with regard to senior citizens. Senior citizen after senior citizen after senior citizen will go to a council and say, "Look, I have my Old Age Pension; that is all I have to live on." Municipal taxes have doubled in the past two or three years, property taxes have doubled, poll taxes have doubled, so they ask for an exemption from the council.

And the council goes back and say, "Look, we would like to give you an exemption, however, the Minister must approve it. The Minister is the man who says whether you get an exemption or not." They write the Minister or some representative writes the Minister's office and the letter goes back that there is provision in the Local Government Act for your town council to exempt you. Now, when is the Minister going to show some courage, Mr. Speaker, or some guts in this matter and make the decision, stop holding the councils over a barrel?

Because the Minister knows and I can name communities in this Province that if ever a given town council decided to exempt all senior citizens their tax base would disappear. But that is the kind of position that the Minister is prepared to see the councils live with. Mr. Speaker, the $144 a year, twelve dollars a month - When the present Premier took over Municipal Affairs the basic rate across this Province for water rates in unincorporated towns, smaller towns, I am not talking about St. John's or Corner Brook, was around six dollars a month.

The Minister made an arbitrary decision that water rates were going to go to twelve dollars a month across the board in this Province, water and sewer was going to go to twelve dollars a month, $144 a year. It has 2G97

April 9 , 1979 !ape 818 RT-3 MIL G. FLIGHT: got theore now, Mr. Speaker. It has got there w:i.th this effect that people are labouring, they cannot afford their municipal taxes. In communities where we have today Welfare recipients, people surviving on Workmen 1 s Compensation; Old Age p·e.nsio .uers, they canQ.Ot afford it, ~. Speaker. A.nd with .out the re.venue grants coming 2C98

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 819 GH-1 MR. FLIGHT: in from the Province. Some of those towns are going to fold up. Mr. Speaker, we have had suggestions that there would be great seminars to look at the problems of offshore oil. I am going to submit to this government that one of these days there is going to be a great need to call a seminar to look at municipal government in this Province because we are looking at a situation that cannot be maintained, Mr. Speaker.

The majority of the communities in this Province today are bankrupt or close to it, and all that is happening when they come in to talk to the government about their problems is more pressure to increase taxes - more pressure to increase your revenue increase your revenue - sock it to the taxpayers in your community, Mr. Speaker. We have gotten to a point, Mr. Speaker, where there are communities in this Province today that are paying in excess.

They should not be paying the taxes they are paying for the services they are getting, The councils have been pressured by the Department of Municipal Affairs to increase - you have to prove now, Mr. Speaker. When you come in here and indicate that you have a problem in your district, that you need a sewage treatment plant, or you need garbage collection, you have to prove to the Department of Municipal Affairs how you are going to pay for that. No more accepting any responsi­ bility, Mr.

Speaker, that the government of this Province has some responsibility to maintain a decent level of services that they owe their people. I do not care where the money comes from. The minister talks about it is more important to look at the resource sector than it is the social sector, but the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, the government of this Province has a responsibility to allow the people in this Province to live in decency and dignity, and we are fast approaching a point, Mr. Speaker, that the people 2099

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 819 GH-2 MR. FLIGHT: living in incorporated areas in this town, not the larger centres; St. John's has a tax base that the Government of Newfoundland need not put another cent in for the next twenty years and it will grow. The private sector will guarantee the future growth of this city.

The private sector will guarantee the future growth of Corner Brook, but the private sector will not guarantee the future growth of Badger or Millertown or Buchans Junction, and the private sector will not guarantee - will not put the kind of money into those communities that will allow the people to have the basic services. So, Mr. Speaker, the government has a responsibility whether you want to say the social priorities of - I mean this Premier is noted for saying that, "I put greater emphasis and greater priority on the resource sector of the Province. We will make the money.

We will develop our natural resources and make the money to pay for these facilities and these services." Well, Mr. Speaker, I tell you that may happen but the danger is that the money they make will be spent in St. John's and Corner Brook and Grand Falls and the great urban centres. It will not find its way into helping put a water and sewerage system into Buchans Junction. So this Province has a responsibility, Mr. Speaker, to provide the basic services for communities that have no way of generating the revenue they need on their own to provide basic services to the various communities. Mr.

Speaker, they need not put a freeze on. I will tell you, there was a freeze put on incorporation in this Province a year or two ago, but the way that this government has allowed municipal taxes to increase the smallest community, Mr. Speaker, is now looking 2100

April 9, 1979 Tape No. 819 GH-3 MR. FLIGHT: at a $12 a month. If they want a water system - $12 a month, and, Mr. Speaker, there is another policy too. I know of some communities, Mr. Speaker, that have put in water systems under Canada Works and the deal was that when the water system was put in the only charge would be the maintenance of the system after it was put in. Of course, after the system was put in operation, Mr. Speaker, then obviously there started to be problems. The operational cost was greater than they thought it would be. There had to be additions. The chlorinator was not big enough originally, so they had to come back to the Pr