Manitoba Hansard — 17 May 1976 (Sitting 115, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-115

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Peter Fox Voi. XXIII No.115 8:00p.m., Monday,May17th,1976. Third Session, 30th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans- Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

Electoral Division Name ARTHUR J. Douglas Watt ASSINIBOIA Steve Patrick BIRTLE-RUSSELL Harry E. Graham BRANDON EAST Hon. Leonard S. Evans BRAN DON WEST Edward McGill BURROWS Hon. Ben Hanuschak CHARLESWOOD Arthur Moug CHURCHILL Les Osland CRESCENTWOOD Warren Steen DAUPHIN Hon. Peter Burtniak ELMWOOD Hon. Russell J. Doern EMERSON Steve Derewianchuk FLIN FLON Thomas Barrow FORT GARRY L.R. (Bud) Sherman FORT ROUGE Lloyd Axworthy GIMLI John C. Gottfried GLADSTONE James R. Ferguson INKSTER Hon. Sidney Green, O.C. KILDONAN Hon. Peter Fox LAC DU BONNET Hon. Sam Uskiw LAKESIDE Harry J.

Enns LA VERENDRYE Bob Banman LOGAN William Jenkins MINNEDOSA David Blake MORRIS Warner H. Jorgenson OSBORNE Hon. I an Turnbull PEMBINA George Henderson POINT DOUGLAS Donald Malinowski PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE Gordon E. Johnston RADISSON Harry Shafransky RHINELAND Arnold Brown RI EL Donald W. Craik RIVER HEIGHTS Sidney Spivak, O.C. ROBLIN J. Wally McKenzie ROCK LAKE Henry J. Einarson ROSSMERE Hon. Ed. Schreyer RUPERTSLAND Hon. Harvey Bostrom ST. BONIFACE Hon. L.L. Desjardins ST. GEORGE Hon. Bill Uruski ST. JAMES George Minaker ST. JOHNS Saul Cherniack, O.C. ST. MATIHEWS Wally Johannson ST. VITAL D.J. Walding STE.

ROSE A.R. (Pete) Adam SELKIRK Hon. Howard Pawley SEVEN OAKS Hon. Saul A. Miller SOUR IS KILLARNEY Earl McKellar SPRINGFIELD Hon. Rene E. Toupin STURGEON CREEK J. Frank Johnston SWAN RIVER James H. Bilton THE PAS Hon. Ran McBryde THOMPSON Ken Dillen TRANSCONA Hon. Russell Paulley VIR DEN Morris McGregor WELLINGTON Philip M. Petursson WINNIPEG CENTRE Hon. J.R. (Bud) Boyce WOLSELEY R.G. (Bob) Wilson Political Address Affiliation P.C. Reston, Man. Lib. 10 Red Robin Place, Wpg. P.C. Binscarth, Man.

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NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg P.C. Nesbitt, Man. NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg P.C. 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg P.C. Swan River, Man. NDP Legislative B ldg., Winnipeg NDP 24- 1 Public Rd., Thompson NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg P.C. Kenton, Man.

NDP 681 Banning St., Winnipeg NDP Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg P.C. 2 Middlegate, Winnipeg Postal Code ROM 1XO R3J 3L8 ROJ OGO R3C OV8 R7B OH9 R3C OV8 R3R 1 L5 ROB OEO R3N 1E7 R3C OV8 R3C OV8 ROA 2KO ROB OHO R3N OT9 R3L OG8 ROC 1BO ROJ OTO R3C OV8 R3C OV8 R3C OV8 ROC 3HO ROA 2AO R3E 2S6 ROJ 1EO ROG 1KO R3C OV8 ROG 1GO R2V 2P2 R1N 3B2 R2J 1W8 ROG 2XO R2M 3Y8 R3C 3H3 ROJ OXO ROK OXO R3C OV8 R3C OV8 R3C 1P3 R3C OC4 R3J 3..18 R2W 1H2 R3G 1X4 R2H 1L7 ROL 1SO R3C OV8 R3C OV8 ROK 1PO R3C OV8 R3J 2G3 ROL 1ZO R3C OV8 RBN OM3 R3C OVB ROM OZO R3G 2G3 R3C OVB R3C 2C4

THE LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 p.m., Monday, May 17, 1976 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY - TOURISM 3891 MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 110, Page 56, 110 (

e) Tourist Marketing Services, Salaries. The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I would only like to make a brief comment per taining to the remarks made by the Honourable Member for Morris before we adjourned at 4:30.

He indicated a possibility of all those concerned, Renewable Resources, the Depart ment of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and I would assume all lodge operators that intend to incite tourists to come to our province to not oversell in the sense that if we're attempting to indicate that there is fish in some given lakes, that we either see that there is or refer people to areas where they will not be disappointed, and I have to take that for what it's worth.

I believe that we should make an effort to give good reference and not oversell, in a sense only sell what we do have and try to be conscientious in our referrals, so I certainly accept the remarks made. MR. CHAIRMAN: (e)1--pass; (e)2 Other Expenditures--pass, (e)3--pass. Reso lution 110; Resolved that there be grant ed to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $14,233,400 for Tourism, Recreation, and Cultural Affairs--pass. Resolution 111, Cultural and Rec reational Services Division (

a) Divisional Administration (1). Salaries $40,100 -the Hon ourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister, it says Divisional Administration, does that mean the province is divided into so many areas? I wonder if he could explain that title • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation, and Cultural Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, the objective of this sectio11 of the department is the provision to develop policy and the program of the department, and to ensure their effective achievement in relation to government policy and consumer population needs.

This includes salary of two permanent staff man years, Assistant Deputy Minister and O."'.e sup port staff. The re's a total of 5, 600 increase that is due to general salary increase and annual merit increments. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I'll ask the Honourable Minister, how many Assistant-Deputy Ministers do you have ? MR. TOUPIN: Three, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution ll1(a)1--pass (a)

(2) Other Expenditures, $5,300- pass; (

b) Community Recreation Services

(1) Salaries, $454,100--pass. The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, this includes salaries for 21 permanent staff man years, a Director Cultural Development Officer, two supervisors, 11 recreation specialists, 6 support staff and 19.26 term assistants, project supervisors, service work ers, cooks, and support staff. There's a total increase here of 8,400, due· again to salary increase and annual increments.

It includes general office costs of the community rec reation function and it includes the following major items: Other fees for leaders fo:::- local regional and provincial workshops, clinics, and institutes in all areas of recreation for community performing groups for Outreach Program, automobiles 54.8, transportation 46 .9, transportation of citizens to various training and exposure programs, travel, 37.7; contract services 32.4; 3 staff man year regional recreation of specialists assistants, operation of the kitchen at Gimli, leadership training centre, the costs are offset by course revenue; office supplies printing-and stationery 27 .3; there's a total increase in that appropriation of 47.3 and that is clue to price increases, 26.3, full year costs 11,000 and workload increase for automobiles 10,000 both of these are related to the hiring of three regional recreational specialists assistants in 197 5-76.

MR. McKENZIE: Where are these three regional specialists located, and what's their salaries? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, there are regional directors in Thompson,

3892 Mayl 7, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont 'd) • • • .The Pas, Dauphin, Morden, Brandon, Portage , Beausejour, Selkirk, and there could be some that we've missed that we'll bring back later. MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I was referring to the specialists , he mention ed three regional specialists . MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Ch airman, the se are the regional specialists, they're specialists in their area of function pertaining to rec reation . MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could explain this . You have a regional office in The Pas? Is there any other regional office other than The Pas? MR.

TOUPIN: Yes, 11 of th em . MR. McKENZIE : There is only one listed in the telephone directory, just the one at The Pas • MR. TOUPIN: I believe, Mr . Speaker, that they should be listed in the directory that we have as members here , they should be equally listed in the rural directory . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EIN ARSON: Mr . Chairman, just for clarification purposes when the Minis ter talks about the three regional specialists, I'm wondering if any of the duties are for the purpose of inspecting parks and areas along the shoreline, government supervised parks MR. TOUPIN : No, Mr .

Speaker, their responsibilities are not related to parks , they're related to recr eation, excluding parks . MR. SPEAKER: Resolution lll (b)l--pass. The Honourable Minister. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, possibly it would be of assistance to members if I read the objective that we have in this

section here . The objective is the provision to assist Manitoba communities and provincial agencies in developing rec reational oppor tunities for all Manitobans and to equalize opportunities for disadvantages groups and in dividuals to participate in recrea tional activities. So actually those specialists are to work with different associations that do re late with rec reation with municipalities, local govern ment districts, Indian bands and so on, to attempt to be of some usefulness in organizing recre ational activities. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR.

McKENZIE : I wonder can the Minister advise, why is the sports split up into two parts? I know the Minister of Health said, well, he 's in charge of, was it organized sports? And this departme nt's unorganized sports . I defy most experts to tell me the difference between unorganized and organized sports, and I just can't unde rstand why we can't have the m in one departme nt? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Ch airman, first of all I have to indicate to the honourable member that this is a question of policy.

When you talk of community sports, you talk of sports that re late to a given community, that re late to a district, and you don't neces sarily talk of organized sports on a provincial basis, so you can split the two responsibil ities quite easily.

The departmen t here is respons ible for community recr eation, the Minister of Health and Social Development is responsible for those sports on a organized provincial basis, so when we do get reque sts that deal with organized sports on a pro vincial basis they're dealt with by the Minister of Health and Social Deve lopment through the Sports Dire ctorate , not by the recrea tional branch of my department . MR. McKENZ IE: It just doesn't add up tho ugh .

Your staff and the other Minis te rs' staff must be running back and forth chasing one another's shadows all the time try ing to figure out who's going to do what, because certa inly these communities have organi zed sports ; they have the ir organized baseball clubs, their organized hockey clubs , they're organized in many sports . And sure, the Minister of Health. says he 's in charge of that, but this is where it is so difficult and maybe this is the intent, to keep us confused so that we can't break it down and find out what is taking place . If that is the intent , you're doing an excellent job. MR.

TOUPIN : Mr. Chairman, I don't believe the Honourable Minister of Health or myself are confused, in the sense that if re quests come of me that deal with organized sports on a provincial basis, it's automatic and my staff know th is; they don't trip over one another, they do talk to one anothe r, they work very closely togethe r. Not only

May 17, 1976 3893 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ••••• between those two departments, but equally in Education be cause there are so many programs in Education, Colleges and Universities that deal with recreation, that deal with culture, that deal with programs that we have in

part in cultural development, that we have to talk to one another, so it's quite easy to understand the pol icy and deliver without duplication. MR. McKENZIE: My only concern is that it seems to me that it's a duplication of services and the govermnent could save the taxpayers quite a sum of money if the whole sports' aspect of this province was handled by one Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, it may be confusing the honourable member, but it's not confusing at all.

The matter of recreation and amateur sport runs a continuum it's not as though there is any clear line of demarcation but rather a graduated continuum, and accordingly it doesn't matter much where the organizational structural line is drawn as long as there is a good means of referral from one department to the other.

So the Hon� ourable Member for Roblin I'm sure would agree, for example, that in the area of arts and crafts and handicrafts, that viewed in one sense this is regarded as coming properly under the purview of Cultural Affairs and activity and it is also possible to view it as having to do with community recreation, but certainly handicrafts would not be regarded as amateur sport. Now then physical fitness, physical fitness and amateur sport is a direct orate of the National Department of Health and Welfare, so there is symmetary in that regard.

So as long as there is a good system of referral as between the Departments of Cultural Affairs and the Department of Health and Social Development, then there is no tripping back and forth as he puts it; on the other hand, if there is no good system of referral there can be duplication of effort, and that is why the two departments in that context are under a degree of onus to ensure that there is the maximum of efficient refer ral back and forth. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation, and Cultural Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, I believe it would be wise to make a precision pertaining to the staff complement of the Sports Directorate, whose responsibility lies with Health and Social Development. They don't have regional staff, our recreation branch does, and when there is a request dealing with community recreation, that's done by the Depart ment of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs, and there is on-going discussion be� tween the Sports Directorate and the branch that we are dealing with now. So I don't believe that we're causing that much duplication.

There could be some grey zone in the sense that individuals don't always know who to go to pertaining to information, but when it comes to I, as an example, and it deals with provincial organized sports, it is referred automatically and vice versa. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm familiar with some cross country ski trails that have been provided in the Brandon area and I'm wondering, does this program of pro viding this kind of facility come under physical fitness or is this recreation? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, in most cases it's through municipalities where we share - you do have such trails, as an example, in provincial parks and that's within the provincial park structure, so it's a combination of things. There's no duplication, but like I indicated, in most cases it's organized by the municipal authority. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, specifically in the Brandon hills, south of Brandon, there is a fairly good facility for cross country skiing, was that money pruvided by the Department of Tourism or did it come from the Department of Health? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, it wasn't provided through Health according to my knowledge, and it wasn't provided through this branch, according to the information that I get; it could have been provided through the

section of the department that we just left, and I'm not quite sure, so I'll take the question as notice. It could have been pro vided in part through our Parks Branch.

3894 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm surprised that both d"epartments are denying responsibility, because it's a very popular and a very useful kind of facility, at a minimum of expense I would imagine, and being used by an increasing number of people, I'm sure that it provides recreation and physical fitness, so I'm surprised that you're not jumping up to take full responsibility for this. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, instead of wanting to take all or part responsi bility without !mowing, I'd rather plead ignorance. MR. CHAIRMAN: 111 - the Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR.

EINARSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, under Community Recreation Services, I think it's a private operation, the Bambi Gardens, there's been some correspondence I believe sent to the Minister of this Department and I'm wondering what the situation is there; it's the eroding of the banks of the Assiniboine River, and this is a community rec reation area. I'm wondering can the Minister enlighten me on this particular community recreation area that people have provided for the public? MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Speaker, according to the information that I'm given this is not part of our responsibility. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, 11d like to ask the Minister, would the question then be in order to go to the Minister of Mines and Resources rather than your department? MR. TOUPIN: No, Mr. Chairman, I \\Ould believe that the onus there and too responsibility would lie with the municipal authority, with permission to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources, but it would not oo a service offered by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources. lVIR. EINARSON: Do Lunderstand the Minister then, that.that party concerned would have to apply through their local municipality to the Department of Mines and Resources. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Resolution 111(b)1--pass, (b)2 other Expenditures--pass, Grant Assistance--p ass - the Honourable Member for, Roblin. JYffi. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, a breakdown of this item please. MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, on this item we're dealing with full·-time rec- reation directors, and the formula is (a) 2, 000 base grant, (b) 1, 000 for each participating municipality, and a percentage of grant is awarded when part of a municipality - I'm sorry 2,000 base, 1,000 for each participating municipality, (c) 1,000 for district when more than 10,000 population, (d) 1, 000 for district when average density of less than 10 popu lation square mile, (e) 3,000 if total assessment is zero to 10 million, 2,000 if total as sessment is 10 to 20 million, and 1,000 if total assessment is 20 million plus, 1,000 for an agreement with a school division; it is expected that 12 areas will receive base grants of 2, 000 each and that 12 districts will be formed receiving grants of ootween 9 and 11,000 each.

The recreational agencies, wheel chair sports, retarded children association 20,000 communities for adults for arts education 60 percent community, 40 percent province cost sharing, for the purpose of none expendable equipment, 5, 000 and that's for a total of $171,000 in 1976-77. That's a total increase of 2,500, due to workload increase. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder if the Honourable Minister could indicate, are those figures in the back of his Annual Report? MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, for those districts formed in 1975 -76 they would oo, but in the figures that I'm giving you here for 1976-77 includes for new districts that you will find only in the report for next year. That is the report that will oo tabled next year for this year's activity. The report I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the member has ends March 31, 1975. MR. CHAIRMAN: Grant Assistance--pass,

(4) Canada - Manitoba Northlands Agreement (

a) Salaries 44,800--p ass; other· Expenditures, 187,100 -t he Honourable Mem ber for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would give us a break on Other Expenditures on 4(b). the 171? MR. TOUPIN: I'll clarify. Does the Honourable Member want a breakdown of MR. EINARSON: I would like the breakdown, Mr. Chairman, if possible on the 187,100 dollars, that's where we are now I think.

May 17, 1976 3895 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)4(b). MR. TOUPIN: This is pertaining to other Expenditures. There's fees here of 43,000, office supplies 4, 900. posters, telephone, telegraph 5, 000, equipment 5, 600, Auto mobile 4, 500, advertising exhibits 500, freight and express charges 900, travelling 14,800, miscellaneous 6,000, transportation 39,400; and there's purchase services of 22,000, con tract services 40,500, for a total of 187,100. That's the amount, yes, 187,100, and that's claimable through the Northlands Agreement, for a 50-50 sharing. MR. EINARSON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister mentioned fees, I wonder if he could explain the nature of those fees. MR. TOUPIN: The fees I'm informed Mr. Chairman, are for the paying af in structors, leaders, workshop, teachers and so on, for the amount that I indicated there, of 43,000. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder if the Minister could give us breakdown on the agree ment that he has with Canada under the Northlands Agreement regarding these items and the amount that is recoverable from Canada, what contract C:o you draw up? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, we're dealing with a master agreement between the province as such and the Federal Government, we only fall within a

section of this master agreement. I don't have the :naster agreement with me. All I can say is that we've attempted to bring in services that are rendered through this branch under the master agreement, and those items that we have here qualified. We're now dealing with last year within the agreement, as I indicated Friday. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1ll(b)4(

b) other Expenditures--pass; (b)4(

c) Grant Assistance the Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : I wonder if the Minister could spell that item out for us please. MR. TOUPIN: The 21,500, Mr. Speaker, is for a full time recreational direc tor at 14,000, two recreation agencies of 5, 000 and two communities for art education programs at 2,500 for an amount of 21,500. There's no increase over last year and this is recoverable 60 percent from Ottawa. MR. McKENZIE: Where is that director located, Mr. Chairman? MR. TOUPIN: This involves, Mr. Chairman, all of our recreation directors in the north, who receive 2, 000 each. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b){4)(c)--pass; (

c) Cultural Grants $3,249,100 - the Honour able Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder can the Minister give us a breakdown of this item, please. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism, Recre ation and Cultural Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, the breakdown for 1976-77, the Museum of Man and Nature, 1,230,000, Manitoba Centennial Centre Corporation 771,300, the Manitoba Arts Council 535,000, Winnipeg Art Gallery 385,000, The Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium, 55,000, Le Centre Culture!

Franco-Manitobain 82,500, The Manitoba Centen nial Centre Corporation 771,300, the Multi-Cultural Projects 190,300, for a total of 3,249, 100. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder, do those figures show in the Annual Report, or at least the year ending ••• This Estimate Book is for the year 1975, so it's actually no value to us at all --(Interjection)-- Yes it is, but it's no good on these estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1ll(c)--pass - the Honourable Member for F1rt Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the lVIinister could come back to the issue of the support and assistance that we 're giving to the arts groups that the prov ince is now supporting. I was doing a quick rule of thumb that would indicate to me that we're increasing the expenditure by about 10 percent. I think, which is kind of a hold the

3896 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• line budget. I was wondering if the Minister is plan ning any basic review of the policies related to funding of the arts, either in terms of developing matching grant formulas more specifically or trying to reorganize or redirect the programs into alternative areas of support, particularly the large art organizations, cultural organizations, indicated I guess in a study that came out last year that they have an economic benefit to the community, that they bring more money in than in fact goes out.

I believe that was a study that the Canada Council supported. It would seem to indicate that there is in fact a net gain to the community for large organizations like .the ballet and symphony and arts. And ye t I think at the same time, Mr.

Speaker, it's I don't think any mystery to recognize that, particularly groups like the ballet and the symphony are in very serious trouble on operating grants, ringing up heavier deficits every year, unable to recoup that through increased ticket sales, and I'm wondering to what degree there is some danger that some of these larger organizations themselves might be in danger of falling by the wayside and if there is any assessment being done of their longer term financial needs - by longer term, I probably mean three to five-year position -to determine how the Provincial Government might help to sustain it or put in on a more solid fiscal basis so that they can get away from this kind of ad hoc crisis financing that seems to occur every year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I gave the breakdown of funds payable to the majors, I have not given the breakdown of the multi-culturism projects which amounted to 190.3, I can do so later. It's not a very good year, to answer the Member for Fort Rouge, to be of some assistance to cultural groups, to plan effectively their budgeting in the future, in the sense that we could only allow for a 10 percent increase across the board. A lot of them were suffering from three or four or even beyond four years pertaining to ongoing deficits.

The government has decided to support as many as we possibly could to date pertaining to a Sharing of covering the deficits. The Royal Win nipeg Ballet is an example where we accepted to share on a dollar for dollar basis to a maximum of - there was two methods that we used there. We gave them an outright sharing grant of $150,000.00, I'm sorry, of $100,000, and a commitment over the next 10 years for $15,000 a year through the Arts Council. That was a method that we utilized to attempt to do away with their deficit.

They in turn took measures to rectify the budgeting problem that they had pertaining to the running of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet and we seem to be quite assured now that the deficit will not re-occur in the future. We've done the same thing with the Contemporary Dancers. We agreed to share on their deficit of $78,000, where we shared $3 7,500 on a dollar for dollar basis. We're doing the same thing for the Centre Culture! in regards to their deficit.

But when we accept to do that, we always make sure that the budget itself for future years is really banked on funds that are promised by different levels of government and private individuals. It cannot be presented to us in a fashion that will be on promises made by different levels of government or private donors because we can't go on this way sharing and picking up deficits for current years. And that is certainly the case with the Con temporary Dancers, the Centre Culture!, and the Winnipeg Ballet.

The Art Gallery is another example where we accepted to share 50 percent of the half a million deficit that they had, to a maximum of $250,000 and they raise $250,000. We accepted to share a percentage of their budget for 1976-77 but not beyond. And yet I must say that the amouts that we voted here for the Arts Council, as an example, the Arts Council is more than hopeful of earning lottery revenue which will be over and beyond the amount that they're voted here. That will certainly allow the Arts Council, Mr. Chairman, some flexibility pertaining to new groups in society that we would like to fund partially.

So to answer specifically the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, I can only say that the officials of my Cultural Development

section and the Arts Cmmcil can only be of assistance pertaining to existing budgets, deficits that groups may have, and help ing them plan more effectively for the future, but not being able to bank on a large in crease, e3pecially for 1976-77.

May 17, 1976 3897 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I understand the dilemma that the Minister faces in the funding. I guess what I was trying to discover is whether we have done a proper accounting, and really I guess the l:enefits that accrue from the kind of cultural activities that the Provincial Government is prepared to support. I'm mindful of the esti mate made for example of the Ontario Arts Council. I guess that study that was done for the Canadian Council estimated that the province recovered in taxation 120 percent of the amount that it actually gave to the Toronto Symphony.

In other words it was a money maker rather than a money-loser over and above it.

And it seems to me that one of the situations we're heading to, particularly in tight money, when everyone is concerned about budgets, that it would seem to me the arts are one of the most vulnerable and easiest areas to cut back on because they don't seem to have kind of hard practicalities to it as we normally like to consider those things, The question I'm really raising is: first, have we done an assessment about the economic costs and benefits that could legitimately be assessed against the performing arts in the city and the province in relation to the kind of benefits that they bring, and on that basis come up with some formulas for funding and finance to give them a little bit more autonomy so that they're not constantly, as the Minister said, in an emergency crisis situation, where they're always having to run to the province to bail out defici ts which I think interferes pretty substantially with the funding.

I guess what I would like to deter mine is to what degree - for example, couldn't we rationalize the division of granting be tween what is given to the department itself as grants and what is given to the Arts Coun cil, should it not all come under the one body?

And therefore that Arts Council, that would be the agency doing it, would therefore be able to plan on some comprehensive way and develop programs with a fair degree of autonomy, because as it now stands it's kind of a number of split jurisdictions as to who gives money and where and how, and there doesn't seem to be any capacity for planning on that basis so we're always in that catch up kind of game.

I'm just wondering if there shouldn't be some efforts in a time of con straint to make the most effective use of the resources to better planning of it, and also by consolidating the direction in one agency by giving it the kind of resources that it needs in a total way to do the job, MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, we have not made the assessment that the hon ourable member is making reference to. I can indicate to the honourable member that pertaining to possibly duplication between the resources within the Cultural Development Department itself and the Arts Council, that we do more than talk to one another.

The funds that are voted for the Arts Council are voted here. We do have staff sitting on the Arts Council on an advisory capacity. As an ongoing interchange of programs submissions that are made to myself or to the department between one and the other, I think the Arts Council itself not only has the role of assessing grants' applications and paying out same, but has a role of advising the Minister and the department pertaining to possible cultural development in the Province of Manitoba.

And even if the Arts CoU1lcil in my humble opinion had only that responsibility, I believe it would be worthwhile to continue existing, to have individuals that are knowledgeable in the field of arts being able to advise the Minister responsible on ways and means at his disposal to formulate policy as long as the funds are making themselves available by one means or the other. The amounts of grants that we pay to most organizations in the field of arts were actually in the minority if you look at most groups that we support. We're certainly not contributing to 51 percent of the amount that they seek.

And we can use several examples of that, the Art Gallery being one. The amount that we paid to the Art Gallery is 33 percent of their budget, So we can't say that the grants that are being made to these diff erent cultural or art groups, that the department here is contributing the largest amount of their budgeted needs.

But that doesn't mean that the department should not be involved jointly with the groups in question and with the Arts Council in helping those organizations formulate policy and being able to at least have a mock budget for a period of four or five years so they know where to actually plan activities in the future. But I can't say that at this time in this area that we have that type of long-range budgeting. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I'm leaving that particular discussion for the

3898 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• moment. I'm wondering if the department or the Arts Council, whichever body is responsible for making decisions, has any specific pro gram in relation to supporting community arts or performing activities aside from the large enterprises that we 're all familiar with.

One of the areas I think of some concern is building support on a smaller scale "for localized art groups, theatre groups, music groups, in terms of representing a kind of expression of culture and artistic abilities that would not lend themselves to a large scale presentation which might be very much repre sentative of certain kinds of communities.

And I'm thinking in particular for example, movement towards a much wider spread smaller scale feeder groups throughout the city and the province that would provide representation by way of plays that might reflect our own prairie community or would have performing facilities.

And again it's come to my attention that many of the smaller theatre groups have a great deal of diff iculty getting staging facilities that the Manitoba Theatre Centre and the Workshop, Playhouse and so on are usually filled up with touring groups or with the more professional figures and it's very diffi cult for many of these smaller groups to get places where they can perform and put on concerts or plays or whatever it may be.

I'm wondering if the department has any plans or programs in this area in terms of providing additional assistance either in terms of grants or in the provision of facilities for many of these smaller artistic enterprises. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, apart from citing examples of spending that occurred in the last fiscal year ending March 31, 1976 which the honourable members don't have before them. I can indicate Festival Manitoba is one

section of the department where we help community groups organize themselves in the field of arts. Outreach, Capital Facility Grants is another area where we've assigned a certain percentage of lottery revenue that actually falls within that general ambit.

We've assisted such groups, and I will cite them as ex amples because they've been paid out last year: The Winnipeg Film group 5, 000; The Jewish Historical Society of Western Canada 15, 000; Highland Dancers Association, Societe Franco-Manitobain, Zirka School of Dance, Festival du Voyageur, Ukrainian Free Academy of Science, German Canadian Choir, Ukrainian Folk Ensemble, Polish Youth Ensemble, M.I.B., Icelandic Canadian Foundation, Polish Cultur al Association, Melo-Mani, Polish Choir and Dancers, The Pas Friendship Centre (that was for cultural activities), Modern Language Association, Flin Flon Slovac Recreation and Arts Club, Kalyna Dancers, Conseil Jeunesse Provincial, the Ukrainian Cultural and Educational Centre, and the list goes on.

And that was an amount of $135,761. And to indicate the type of assistance that we make available to Festival Manitoba, 102,500, and this is the list: Woman as Viewer, artists and athlete and residents and noon hour concerts, Uncle Harry's Travelling Medicine Show, regional concerts, concerts in the north, Warehouse on Campus, Holiday String Ensemble, Ballet in the Park� Symphony in the Park, Canada Day, Manitoba Day, Senior Citizens Olympics, Old Time Picnics, Wally Byam Caravan publicity and promotion of diff erent activities. So there's a shopping list of community groups that we fund, at least partially. MR.

AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, it's good to know how the Hon ourable Member for Lakeside does some moonlighting during the summer months, I gather he takes his medicine show around the province, but I didn't know that he would get a cultural grant for that purpose. But I'm wondering, in the support of these, the sum comes to $135,000 ••• It seems to me Mr. Chairman, that one of the concerns of the theatrical groups and musical groups that have spoken to me have expressed is the lack of facilities, the lack of places actually to perform.

I don't know what kind of in ventory in fact we have available in the City of Winnipeg for these, but they feel that there is some real diffi culty getting the kind of small scale theatres or concert halls that are required in order to put on:their performances, in addition to getting a little bit of start -up funds, and I again would like to know from the Minister if the department has done that kind of inventory - if it has, if it kind of goes to bat for these kinds of organizations or provides any service in the procurement of spaces or makes available diff erent kinds of auditoriums for the performing of these arts so that these groups could have some access to them.

May 17, 1976 3899 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. TOUPIN: Yes, definitely. I take under advisement the comments made by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. I've got a note here, I don't know where it comes from, the initial is very dif ficult to read. But the question asked me: Does Uncle Harry's Travelling Medicine Show sell snake oil? I don't believe so.

I believe that we do find, additional funds to accommodate that type of need which I do believe is very real; that possibly we should do everything within our power to make use of facilities that we now have and are not being utilized fully: Schools, thea tres, auditoriums, gyms and so on I believe could be utilized to a greater degree.

There's a lot of facilities that we now have that are not acceptable to some of these groups that are trying to find space in Winnipeg or elsewhere and I think, especially in a period of economic restraint, that we have to stretch and do everything in our power to use our resources fully. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I just have one final question. I don't know if this is the right Minister to ask it, perhaps the Minister of Labour might be more ap propriate.

But again perhaps by the kind of constituency that I represent, it's been brought to my attention that one of the serious problems that we 're facing in this time of economic restraint is we have a number of unemployed artists who because everyone seems to be cutting back on the things that which are by their terms considered to be peripheral, there just isn't - increasingly - that much work around, and I wonder if the departrrent has really looked at this problem, I mention it because I think these people are an ex tremely valuable resource in our community, that Winnipeg has been struggling to maintain its position as a regional centre of the performing arts, that we try to get, I suppose in creasingly, some work through the CBC and so on for people.

But there are a number of people who make their living, not just on the performing side but on the technical side, who provide make-up, lighting and the rest of it, and I gather that this is becoming in creasingly difficult to find enough work so that they can maintain a steady occupation and as a result we lose a number of them. And I'm again wondering, going back to this basic question of policy and programming in supporting arts, whether again this is a problem that the Minister and the department are looking at? Is there anything we can do about it?

I don't know, maybe it's just inevitable that we lose them all to Toronto or Vancouver, wherever they're all going, but it would seem to me if we do, then this community is going to be much the poorer for it. I would really raise the question, not by way of criticism because I don't know the depth of the problem, I just know that in my riding where a number of people who are in the arts live, and they have talked to me about it, because it is becoming an increasingly serious problem, and I'm really wondering iB there anything that we could be doing for it.

I suppose some of the more senior gentlemen in the House could recall back to the depression where they used to supply grants to artists to put things on and so on, I don't know if we need to resort to that, but it does seem to me that if it's a problem, then we should be looking at it and determining are there any measures available for trying to retain the artists here that we have. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is sharing a lot of the concerns that we all have in this department.

I said it last year and I'll repeat it again, if we did have the resources available to us, we could have doubled the amount that we have within the Estimates here and I could guarantee to honourable members and the taxpayers of the province that we'd use the same financial guidelines pertaining to strict budget controls in helping artists help themselves. I think what artists need more - and here we 're talking about professional artists - need more than anything else, is a place to work out of in most cases.

I can recall with - and this was really unfortunate - but while in Health and Social Development I met so many artists that were on partial assistance and some of them on full assistance andha d good talents, able to perform, able to do good work as artists, and yet didn't have the platform to work from, then once their piece of art was completed, no way of being able to make it available to the public here and elsewhere in Canada and the States. And I believe if we ever do play a more major role in this field, that that will be the

3900 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ••••• area that I'd like to move in, having a residence where artists can work from. As an example we have buildings now that are becoming available on Assiniboine, the Assiniboine Credit Union, Geurtin Place, and so on, the city is ac quiring a lot of property. I believe that we could use some of these facilities for artists that are wanting a residence, to work from. We are attempting within our limited re sources to hire professional artists.

Concerts in the north as an example is one area where we've hired professional artists, Outreach, Festival Manitoba and so on; STEP where we've hired younger artists that are just training and becoming professionals. So, you know, the field is unlimited, there's a lot of areas that we could employ them in but yet we don't have the resources to be able to meet all demands. But with the limited resources that we do have or will obtain in this fiscal year, I think these are some of the areas that I'd like to move in. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Chairman, I thank the Minister for his comments re garding the Arts Council and the various artists in the area. The Arts Council is a very interesting group that were formed I guess by legislation back in 1965, sort of an inde pendent agency of the government, and they have left their mark not only in this province but in this country.

They've, on a voluntary basis, set their standards very very high and we only have to lcok at the performance of some of our artists here from time to time to see that the work that the Arts Council has done, the opera, the ballet, the symphony, the contemporary dancers, the Rainbow Stage productions and it goes on and on. And like most other members I wish that we did have more tax dollars for the arts, because the talent is certainly around us.

It's just a matter of de'l!eloping, and I'm sure as we grow older and the province grows - we're only lOO years old and we have a lot to be very proud of in this province, and I'm sure it will be developed to the fullest as the years go ahead as long as we have the guidance and the direction of people like the Arts Council. There's one little item that's been brought to my attention in the same field, and that's the possibility of a youth concert band and a youth choir, which again is an art. And there's one of the staff here in the building at the door who handed me this brochure, Mr.

Smeltzer, and it's got a tremendous amount of merit. His introduction of course is the concern of the loss of musical talent in the Province of Manitoba when people leave high school and we just don't seem to have a Manitoba youth concert band or a youth concert choir. And the talent that's going through our school system, it's all there, it's readily trained, it's available, but in most cases it seems when the boy or girl finishes high school they lay down their instrument or sell it - the same with those that have excellent voices, they don't pursue it. So, Mr.

Smeltzer of course as an instrumental music band teacher, he along with myself and many others, sees the urgent need for a program to hopefully try and encourage these young people to expand their musical horizons, as he puts it, with the possible, hopeful formation of a youth band and a youth concert choir, There has been some attempts during some of the pro grams in a small way but I think maybe once this was established in the province, it would certainly move ahead.

Maybe the Minister has this brochure but if not I'll be pleased to pass it on to him and he can take a look at it some day and hopefully in next year's Estimates we'll have an item of some nature for this worthwhile project. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation, Cultural Affairs. MR. TOUPIN: Well first of all, Mr. Chairman, in regards to the request now being made to the House, it was made of me approximately a week and a half ago.

I received the submission from the individual, he had discussed it with Mary Liz Bayer, my Assistant Deputy Minister, it's being reviewed like many other requests that we get. There's quite a few youth choirs in the Province of Manitoba. I belonged to quite a few of them in my time, I'm having more difficulty in being able to participate now, but there are quite a few in the province and I'm informed here of quite a few names that we have supported either directly or through the Arts Council. I think the main thing that we can do for a lot of these groups is to help them find audiences where they can

May 17, 1976 3901 SUPPLY- TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ••••• perform. Grants are temporary, they help them start. The submission that we now have from that gentleman working here, it's an organized choir, and according to what I hear from Miss Bayer, it's a good choir but yet it needs more momentum pertaining to reaching out to people and that seems to be the lack. But it's being pursued. I can't give the honourable gentleman a commitment in the House this year for this year or next year, I'll only say they'll be reviewed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 11l(c)--pass; 111(

d) Dominion-Provincial Cultural Relations Secretariat,

(1) Salaries $38,000--pass; Other Expenditures $56,80 0. -t he Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Could I have a breakdown of that one and (3) too. Mr. Chairman , please? MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, pertaining to 56,890, this includes general office costs for the Dominion-Provincial Cultural Relations function.

It includes the following major items; transportation $23,000, this is a student exchange program within Manitoba, there's. professional fees to carry out major studies including demand use of minority languages in administrative support roles, demand use of minority languages in municipal government, evaluation of language policy programs and grant support, $14, 000; there's travel in connection with foreign cultural agreement 6,200; this represents an increase of 8. 7 over last year and this is mainly due to price increase of 3' 500 increased promotional activities throughout the province 1, 000 and an additional cost related to the new Assistant Director position, 4,200.

Now under No. 3, this is grants to be distributed as follows: Linguistic Support Program for language programs outside the public school system $50, 000; Language Camp Program $12,000, that's an increase of a thousand over last year; bursaries for students to complete Master degrees in Manitoba universities, for a total of $72,000.00. So that's the explanation for the 56,800 and the $72,000.00. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to indicate that last year in regard to the Linguistic Support Program there was $50,000 but it came out of lotteries. This year we have $50,000 coming out of the budget. MR.

CHAIRMAN: (d)(l)--pass; (d)(2)--,pass; (d)

(3) Grant Assistance --pass; (

e) Provincial Archives, Salaries $139,900--pass; Other Expenditures $33,1.00--pass; Legis lative Library $206,500--pass - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I'd just really like to raise the issue about the position of the Legislative Library since the recent move. Frankly it hasn't been a particularly useful move from the point of view of members· of this House, at least I've found it to be. I by no means want. to make it by way of criticism of the staff there who certainly do their best to provide the same services they have in the past.

But as a research centre from which one should try to obtain information, we don't always have the leisure of being able to plan our day so that we have a lot of time in which to obtain the material and yet by. having. • • when you go across the hall and try and find a journ al or a book or some other. document, then it has to go through the courier system and come back by way of shutes or telegraphs or however it arrives here, and in general it arrl.ves too late. I guess there's not much you could do about it, Mr.

Chairman, frank ly, but it's a very unsatisfactory situation and I really think the government made a serious mistake in moving it. I don't think it was the right move at all, I think the proper place for the library was in th is building where members could use it, as well as the public in general. I think it's simply a matter of physical location, it has noching to do at all with the calibre or performance of the staff, because I think they labour under very severe handicaps.

I expect that whatever savings one expected to gain by moving it in the way of more space, I think you're going to lose in the way of increased labour and time and extras, to simply try and move the stuff back and forth and finding it. So we certainly lost a great deal of convenience, and I expect we've lost a good deal in the way of extra hours just trying to procure the stuff, and while I know the Minister is not prepared to move it back, I just simply wanted to register my own com plaint that it really wasn't a very smart move. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation.

3902 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. TOUPIN: Mr . Chairman, I appreciate the constructive criticism of the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . It would be sort of diff icult to now move it back. What we could possibly do is get a faster runner or a faster shute or something. But the service according to what I hear is far from being as good as it used to be. We can only try and perfe ct on the service as it now stands. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin, MR . McKENZIE : Mr . Chairman, is the microf ilming all been completed that was started, of all the papers and documents? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism . MR. TOUPIN : Yes, we're updating our service, we're close to the end of 19 75 now. MR. McKENZIE : What off ice space is your department occupying over in that bUil ding, the Legislative Archives Building ? MR. TOUPIN: The entire Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs would take approximately 80 percent of the Manitoba Archives Buildi ng. MR. CHAIRMAN: (f) (l)- pass; (f) (2) other Expenditures $88 ,1 00--pass ; Public Library Services, Salarie s $167, 800 - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR . AXWO RTHY: Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister will recall, we brought the serious parlous pay to the libraries to his attention last year. Since that time there has been a provincial new per capita grant program. The assessment has, I think when you look at the end result or impact of that change to a revised grant system really hasn't made things much better and that we 're still suff ering from a number of defici encies in the provincial library system that I would propose to go over with the Minister and see if he can answer.

I think the first thing that we would have to raise with him is that the new grant· system available to librarie s only which serve on a regional basis, or a list of three municipali ties, could end up only really coming to the assistance of six additional library systems . In other words by predicating the increased grant upon a library system that serves three municipalitie s we really only end up helping an additional four library systems over and above what we were doing before , and another 16 are still being avoided or evaded.

So as a result most librarie s we didn't end up helping at all, they're still exactly where they were a year ago. And the fact of the matter is, Mr.

Chairman 'Nhen you look at the figure s, that's not a very good circumstance, because the per capita figure s on library grants put Manitoba almost the lowe &t in the country at this stage; that com pared to plac es J.ike Nova Scotia which is $1 .9 2 per capita, we have 96 percent; British Colu mbia $1 .0 7, we're 96 cents; Ontario $2 .36 per capita, we're 96 cents ; Saskatchewan, our neighbour province to which we always like to compare ourselves in most cases , $2 ,6 3 per capita, ours is 96 cents. So what it really works down to, Mr.

Chairman, is that the proposed reorganization of the library system that was heralded with some celeb rity last year has really been a little bit of puff ery, that it really hasn't ended up helping very many, because there are only six librarie s el igible for that new grant and aid. And it really means, again as I say, about 20 libraries will stand to gain absolutely nothing at all under the revised program.

To give some furthe r example of the present state of mind, there is only one profe ssional librarian serving all of rural Manitoba, so there is alm ost virtuall y nothing in the way of assistance or technical hel p in improving the system . There has certainly been almost virtually no development in the way of a com prehensive library service in Manitoba that can be integrated so there can be a sharing of resources. That the idea of a library network that was pro posed in the Newsom report in 1974-75 hasn't really been introduced at all.

And that we still have made very little progress in supplying any kind of special library services to· physically handicapped people , to northern residents, to native people in their communities. So that I think the extension service, which is the major supplie r of library resources in the province has something like 55, 000 books • Now supposing you started ranging out on the per capita basis, it wouldn't lea ve you with very much. Probably at that basis less than one book for every ten people outside of Greater Winnipeg, which is not exactly a rewarding situation to find yourself in.

May 17 , 19 76 390 3 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXWORTHY cont1d) So I think what we 're really faced with, Mr. Chairman, is that I know that the government can plead restraint but it comes back to whether you really do more damage to yourself by continually cutting back or restricting on resource s which may not have any immediate economic impact but probably in a longer run have far more value than many others, much more wasteful expenditures that we make in the so-called economic sphere or in the hardware sphere. So I think, Mr .

Chairman, that in terms of bringing things up-to-date that the grant program has not worked to the benefit of most libraries in the Province of Manitoba. We have made no progress in the developing of library network services as the New som report proclaimed. Manitoba's still one of the lowest per capita granting province in the whole Dominion of Canada, to the point where we're close to a dollar and a half below what our neighbouring provinces, Saskatchewan and Ontario offer.

The rural areas in particular have not received almost any improvement� In fact, they might even have lost services because of the closing down of the Parklands Regional Library System . We have made nothing in the way of extra efforts for special groups in the community that need extra assistance in the way of physical facilities. In fact,. Mr.

Chairman, it's still my understanding that even the new City of Winnipeg Library which was supposed to be the showcase library, is still waiting for some of its provincial assistance to come along the way in the kind of special programs that should be introduced in that program. So I would really like to know whether the Minister has had any further thoughts about his program, whether he would be prepared to share with us, whether the Provincial Government is planning to take some major steps in the near future to upgrade what is really a very poor service right now in the province. MR .

CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR . BILTON: In spite of the interesting opinion we have received, I rise to pay tribute to our library service in Swan River. The schools have extensive libraries to begin with, and we have a centrally new building. It's just a treat to see the people making use of the books, they're interchanged with the various libraries around the prov ince . I have nothing but praise and admiration for the effort that's being made, and our community to say the least is very grateful for the service we are getting.

The books are up-to-date, and I think the records will prove that the people generally speaking, not only in the community itself but in the rural areas of Swan River throughout the valley, are making abundant use of that library. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . McKEN ZIE : It's very seldom that I disagree with the Honourable Member for Swan River but I must disagree with him on this occasion. Of course he luckily lives in one of the . larger growth centres of this province who basically don't have the problems that the Parklands Library as an example looked after.

Now I'll just read to the Minister into the record for the committee : This is by M . McConnell, who is the correspondent from Ochre River --(Interjection)-- Dauphin Herald, right. The February 11th, 1976 issue . And she says, "Parkland Library re moved from our district is proving a sad loss to a large number of residents t;J our municipality. Not everyone wishes to curl, skate, play hockey, dance or ski-doo ride. Some are quite unable to participate in such robust recreation, but they all find enjoyment in reading.

To establish a program of recreation without consideration for a library seems a backward step indeed ." And that is the general tenor of the voices that I'm get ging from the smaller centres . There's no problem in Dauphin, or there's no problem in Swan River, these larger growth centres, but there sure are problems in the smaller centres across the province, and for the Honourable Member for Swan River to say all is well is hardly fair to people like our friend from Ochre River. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . EINARSON: Mr . Chairman.

I'm glad to hear that somebody is getting good library service. But I think the Minister has received resolutions from municipalities in the province where unfortunately, as I understand it, it is based on the population in sofar as the grants are concerned when you talk alx>ut library services. But I must register the complaints from municipalities, I know from my area, that are very unhappy

3904 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. EJNARSON cont'd) •• ••• with the way in which the fu nds are being allocated in the Province of Manitoba. I don't know what more I can say, Mr. Chairman, other than to register my protest, hopefully that the Minister will give some recognition to improve and make the funds that are being allocated to the Province of Ma.nftoba on a more equit able basis. We'll look forward probably when we deal with the grant assistance on that , maybe the Minister could explain at that puint, unl ess he wants to make some comments now. MR .

CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Minister af Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Aff airs . MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to revert back to some of the comments made by the Member for Fort Rouge. I came into the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affair s when Newsom was making his report known to us . I must say that the majority af his recommendations I endorsed, and so indicated publicly at the time. I've indicated equally in regard to some of the recommendations that I made, and some of the policies that we 're now operating under were actually included in the Newsom recom mendations.

We did not accept all af his recommendations because we didn't have the fiscal power to do that . That is, we didn't have the financial resources available within the department to respond to the regional concepts as he indicated in his report. And we didn't have the financial resources to enlarge the Provincial Extension Library Service to the extent that I believe would have been much better, especially pertaining to our rural areas and the north. We went from approximately a half a million dollars in financial resources within this

section in 1974-75 to $1,5 72,0 00 in 1975-76, and now $1 ,7 95, 800 in 1976 -77 . Some people would say, well that 's not a ve ry hefty increase for a population af approximately a million people. I believe it's a million, fifty- six thousand in the prov ince now, but it's still well over a dollar per capita. It's not enough, I agree with the honourable member.

I for one would tend to agree that I'd go further eventually, in the futu re, when funds do become available in regards to sharing on an equal basis with municipalities, local government districts and Indian bands , with some understanding with Indian Affairs in regards to bettering their library service. I would certainly put the onus on the municipal authorities to push a better library service, and at the same time having a larger and more complete bank on the provincial level pertaining to the provincial expense on library service.

I can understand the comments made by the Member for Swan River, because in his given area we had a pilot project that went for thr ee , four, eventually five years, and Parklands is established as a regional library. I do believe that it's not offe ring the best service in Canada, but it is offe ring a service that the people have gotten to expect and for that reason, I think it can become available in, not all of the regions in the province, but in most regions of the province, especially if we make a greater effort to utilize the school library systems that we have in diff erent parts of the province.

And that again is not fe asible in all areas . If we take Leaf Rapids as an example where we have a uublic and school library service working together, I believe it's working very well, that may be possible in other areas without such a large increase of provincial funding.

But neces sarily, I restate what I said a while ago pertaining to recreational or support to the art ists in our province, if we get additional funds , I do believe that we'll be able to cost share to the level that people consider to be more suitable • But at this time we can only respond with the funds that we have available , I can't go beyond that . Again I take with some degree af sadness the remarks made by the Member for Roblin , and yet I can't go beyond the financ ial resources that I have here . So this is why we've established a formula that meets with the funds that we have available .

The only other way that we could go beyond the $2 .0 0 per capita or the municipal allot ment, whether it be for three or ten municipalities, would be with a larger pot of funds available here. MR. CHAlRMAN: Tm Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. Mc KEN ZIE : Mr. Chairman, just furt her on the subject. The concerns that are being expressed from me are the municipalities that have a reasonably low tax base to operate from , and I happen to have some of those municipalities in my constituency

May 17, 1976 39 05 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. McKENZIE cont 'd) •.••. who are now asked to contr ibute $2 per capita for the first year of the operation. And the question they keep reflecting back on me and which I reflect to yaur director in Dauphin, what's going to happen next year, and what's going to happen the year after ?

They don't want to get locked into something that they find out next year it's going to be five bucks, and the following year ten dollars per capita, they like something firm and have some idea where we 're going, because municipalities such as Hillsburg and Fulton don't have the tax resources to spare . They certainly could afford the $2 . 00 maybe, but if it 1 s 4 or 5 next year, they don't want to get locked in at the start and find out that they have to phase-out in two or three years' time . MR. CH AffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Ch airman .

I wonder if the Minister could be a little bit more specific along what the province is doing other than putting more money into it. Let's as sume for a moment - and we say OK, we're in tight times and you don't want to put any more money into it, which I'm not pre pared fully to accept , but let's put t_hat aside for a moment . The Newsom report made a number of recommen dations, first about establishing a provincial-wide plan based upon consultation of a planning committee that would be set up inter-governmen tally, as well as including the library services .

Se condly, to set up the organizational development of a provincial-wide cataloguing service . Thirdly, to begin establishing the area of resource centre s, and of a minimum set up some decentralization of library service s on a consultative basis to help each library do its own planning. All of which are not dollar items . The se are simply organizational items , planning items . In fact I think that the Newsom report indicated that that should be the first phase. Secondly, Mr. Chairman, I believe that the y reco mmended some substantial changes in the Public Libraries Act .

And it would seem to me that if we were antici pating some major improvements in the Public Library System, it takes them lead time to get that planning done , to get those organizational structure s into place, and that may take a two or three-year basis. So it would seem to me that if we're in tight times at the presen t moment, this would be the time to do your planning, do your reorganiz ing, so that you 've got all the systems ready for go when some more money starts coming through the shute .

And I again would like to raise with the Minister whether that kind of planning and reorganizing have gone on, particularly from the point of view of developing a provincial plan and a cataloguing service and setting up technical consultants on an area basis so that those foundation root s can be planted for the development for a more improved system when money bec omes available. MR. CH AmMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tour ism and Recreation . MR. TOUPIN: Mr.

Chairman, I can inform the honourable member that we're quite ready in regards to receiving and administering wisely additional funds pertaining to library services in the province, whether it be directly or in co-operation with the Departmen t of Education, Co llege and Universities. We do have some Newsom recom mendations that we've conte mplated. We 've read them, we've costed the m out .

It would cost us by the end of five years approximately an additional $2 million, that 's over and beyond the grant s that we 've had to make available on a cost-shared basis with munici palities, local government districts and so on. We are nevertheless participating in a plan per taining to library services in the north , that we're doing under our own financial resourc es . We are looking for film science research as such. We're looking at a library service for the handicapped .

That's unde r our planning and research capabilities within the department and hopefully we can have some inroads in 1976-77 with the limited resources that we have . I indicated a few minutes ago when I talked about some of the Newsom recom mendations, especially pertaining to the larger provincial extension library service that he was reco mmending, and pertaining to the regional information centre s that he was reco mmending, that in concept I believe it's good.

In regards to financial capability of the department to respond to that type of reco mmendation it's completely impossible with the resources that we now have , and I have to live with that . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Chairman, I just have a couple more questions. I would still say, that while I wouldn't be critical of the Minister's proposition that if there

3906 May l7, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••. were more resources they would spend them wisely, he still hasn't said how, to the point, well, there were a couple of areas that were indicated. Now I wasn't really clear whether he was saying that they in fact are going to initiate a provincial-wide plan, whether it would be a library network, an inter library system, a cataloguing system on a provincial-wide basis . If in fact he is saying, yes, we agree with those and we are just waiting for the money, then I think that takes half the point. I was just also wanting to comment, Mr.

Ch airman, we'r e all standing here pleading poverty and I guess it's a good way of copping out these days , but one of the things I just recall reading is that - one thing I would suggest that the Minister, first, is badly treated by his colleagues. I would say . this, that I've never heard a Minister in any department having to plead more negligence on the part of his Cabinet colleagues than the present Minister, so all sympathy goes out to him.

I realize what a difficult row he must hoe , as it were, where all the big spenders are in there, sort of old Industry and Commerce clunking away with all their cash, this Minister providing these areas - I guess he just isn't able to find the wherewithal!, the persuasive powers to convince his colleagues that perhaps in the more non-tangible areas of human develop ment, the Province of Manitoba can afford to stay in the bottom rank.

I'm always intrigued that the First Minister is always very proud to pull out comparative provincial figures on energy costs from province to province and tax costs from province to prov ince that it may be that he should be taking a look at those library figures per province and that really turns those comparisons on their head pretty badly . I would say, Mr. Ch airman, first that I would really offer my full sympathy for the Minister. He obviously has a difficult role to handle . I think it may be an unwise kind of position to find himself in because I just recall reading an

article in the United States where they pointed out that in these times of recession and economic restraint the public libraries down there are doing a booming business because it seems that if people can't afford to eat an expensive restaurant meal they're going to be prepared to go home and read a book which may be an awful lot better for society and our cholesterol count on the long run anyway . Again I would suggest that maybe we 're making wrong priorities. I have one specific question related to the grants that were given to the City of Winnipeg. The issue was raised and it may be resolved.

There was a major complaint by the librarians in the Winnipeg Public Library system that the provincial grant did not go in fact to the library boards but went to the City of Winnipeg coffers . They weren't sure they were going to see it again. That was an issue of some dispute. I would like to know whether that particular anomaly has been followed through because I would assume that if the grant was specified directly for library purposes it should go to the library boards and not to the City of Winnipeg Treasury .

They have a way of kind of having sticky fingers along the way and I don't know if any of it got stuck in the transference . But I'd like to know if the province has resolved that problem. MR. TOUPIN: First of all, Mr . Chairman, we did not make those per capita grants available conditional. The City of Winnipeg was using a lot of its own funds pertaining to public library service and they decided to sign the additional, approximately close to a million dollars offered by the province, for the purpose of adding facilities and that was within their powers . So I can't challenge that.

I can indicate to the honourable member that although we did not get as much funds here as we'd like to pertaining to public libraries, the overall increase for the department as such is not too bad considering the overall increase that we sought in Estimates . We got approximately 12 percent overall for the Department of Tourism, Recreation and Cultural Affairs and 14 percent was allotted for Public Library Service. So we tried to spread out quite evenly. MR . CH AIRMAN: (g) (1) - the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR . BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

With regards to grants to libraries, a particular problem in my constituency and I'm sure the Minister is aware of it, and I'd just like to ask him several questions with regards to that. In Steinbach and surrounding area, Steinbach has not been able to get one of the municipalities to join

May 17, 1976 3907 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. BANMAN cont'd) ••••• the m in a regional library . As a result of course they haven't been able to qualify for the grant . We've had a good group of people who 've managed to start a library . There was a group called "the Friends of the Library " who started work on this, asked for donations from differen t people in the private sector of books, moneys or anything they were willing to donate .

Now my question to the Minister wculd be: at what population level - for instance, we're approaching about 7, 000 people in Steinbach now - at what population level will they be able to receive additional funds and is there any other way that these people possibly could qualify for the type of regional library grants . Are we looking at a population of another municipality joining us ? Is that an absolute criteria for getting that particular amount of money ?

What are the allowances as far as further grants to this particular library, which I might add is now a munciipal library , what the y could expect to receive . MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, Steinbach, as possibly a few other towns in the Province of Manitoba, are having a type of problem that we 're reviewing right now. It does take two or more municipalities to form a district and bec ause of the case in Steinbach they don't qualify unde r the 10 , 000 population.

Th ey're certa inly not receiving a similar amount on the per capita basis as would say Winnipeg or Thompson or Flin Flon or other ar eas, or say the Parkland Regional Library Service . So I can't really give an answer to the Honourable Member for La Veren drye unless the policy is changed or the Town of Steinbach is able to muster the support of another municipality. MR. BANMAN: I thank the Honourable Minister for that answer. So the way it looks right now the town will have to go to an additional 3, 000 people before they qualify at all.

As the Minister is probably aware , they did have a refe ren dum I think with the R.M. of Hanover which happened to turn it down and the town's hands are more or less tied right now because there is no other municipality that would possibly go in with that particular library. I just want to draw it to the Minister's attention. It is a problem .

We do have a good group of people working out there right now trying to bette r that library and maybe some day when the criteria changes, if there 's changes in the granting procedure , then maybe the re'll be a good base to build from and we hope that this could happen sooner than later. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 111( g)(l)--pass; (g)

(2) Other Expenditure s--pass; (g)

(3) Grant Assistance--pass. Resolution 111 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7, 012 ,6 00 for Touri sm, Recreation and Cultural Affairs- pass. I would refe r honourable members back to Page 55. Resolution 10 9(

a) Minister's Compensation. Salary and Representation Allowance. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, I just have a few comments just to sum up the Estimates . I do thank the Minister for his answers and for providing us the infor mation that we reque sted to the best of his ability. I think we must take a close look at Tourism and where it's going in this province and recognize the importance of the industry and not burde n down those that are in the tourist industry in this province with an overload of taxation.

The service people are one of the few groups in this province today that are feeling the pinch of this province 's tax load and they don't like it and I associate myself with them and the concerns that they are expressing at this time . If we are to go forward in Manitoba and enjoy our rightful place, then we must take another very close look at the tax load that those that are in the industry are facing to day rathe r than looking at res olutions that let the municipalities put another tax on hotel rooms and other services such as that .

I don't think it's timely; I think it's wrong and I think that they should stand on their own two feet if we give the m a chance and not overburden the m with taxes. The other thing I think that came out of the Minister's Estimates is the fact that I think we have come to a time in our history, Mr. Ch airman, when we have to seriously try and rescue as much of our culture , of our lO O years ' history , as we possibly can. The Federal Governm ent, Mr . Faulkner, over the last week in one of his statements came out and said that he has a plan as well. I hope that we can work jointly

3908 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) ••••• with the Federal Government to mark our culture , to mark these historic sites , to treasure them and hopefully keep them in their present state for decades and decades to come. Of course we have looked at the Empire Hotel and many other buildings in the city but I think the remarks of Pierre Berton on the weekend were very timely and very important at this time.

He spelled out how careless we maybe have been over the last few years, and maybe over the last 20 years, in not recognizing some of this culture that's all around us and the fact that we should pay more heed and more attention to it because this country has a great future and the culture and some of these old structures and buildings go with it hand in hand. I think it's our duty as le gislators and the gov ernment's duty to assist in every way possible to preserve that heritage.

I again would like to express my concerns regarding the matter in which the Department of Recreation or Sports whatever, is split up into two departments. I think it should be one. Maybe one Minister with some other small portfoli os. But sports, recreation and cul ture, it's a big issue in the province and we're heading in two diff erent directions. Like the lottery funds now that we use . One Minister is in charge of the lottery and how the money infiltrate s back and forth , it's a mystery to me .

I think it's becoming more and more confusing to especially us in the opposition as to what the direction this government is taking. So just as a suggestion, I see many problems ahead for the sports groups in this province with the Olympic lottery, now the Feds are getting into the lottery business. They've spelled out they're moving into it whether we like it or not and I don't know what we can do about it. It was my understanding there was an agreement with Parliament some three years ago that the Federal Government would not be in the lottery business at all.

But apparently they are in and as I under stand the Minister, we are in the lottery business . Mr. Chairman, the other one of course is in the permissiveness of our society today. I wonder if in fact we can do anything about it. I saw in an

article not so terribly long ago that the new permissiveness which we have on television or the movie screen today basically has taken a stag party and put it into the living rooms of our people . That was a statement that came out a couple of weeks ago. The other one that we didn't deal with of course, and that's because it's been well ventilated and well screened, is the violence in sports. I think that's been well taken care of . The hockey season is over and we 're into the more milder forms of sports which is football in comparison to hockey.

The other thing, I wonder if the Minister has some plans for these young Manitoba athletes that's going to compete in the Olympic Game s and no doubt some of them are going to come back with honours of various kin ds. I would hope the Minister will - the House will not be sitting at the time - make sure that these athletes are recognized for what they have brought back, honour to the province for the fact that they gave their time and their talents and their skills to make the Olympic Games what we hope it will be, a very important day in our history.

The other one concern and a main concern that I have when going through the Minister's Estimates of course, goes back to the Hecla Island Hotel resort. We debated that, Mr. Chairman and committee members, in some depth the other day. The answers that I get from the Minister and the people that are advising him and those that I'm getting from the contractor diff er in many fiel ds . I still don't understand, Mr. Chairman, the tender of May 27, 1975 , which was submitted by W. W. Construction Ltd. who was the low bidder of the three bids that were submitted at that time. If you read

Article 1, subsection 14 of the tender in the (

d) section it states: "proposals received after the specified closing time and date will not be considered." That was in the terms of the tender. If you go on and read

article (

f) of the tender, Mr. Chairman, it als o states and it says: "in submitting this tender, we recognize the right of the owner to accept any tender at the price submitted or to reject all tenders , it being understood the tender is submitted on the express condition that revised tenders shall not be call ed, for minor changes only are contemplated." That's where the argu ment comes up, whether this was a minor change or a major change because the dollar value was $800, ooo .

May 17, 1976 (MR. McKENZIE cont'd) 3909 SU PPLY - TOURISM A substantial change, Mr. Chairman, to the original plans and the specifications was tendered on May 27th, 1975, has been confirmed by documents that I have looked at which were the plans and specifications dated January 21st, 19 76.- -(Interjections)--Y es, that's right . But this was Poole Construction's contract. Also the Ministe r, Mr. Ch airman, confirmed that $1 .9 million contract, Poole's contract, as of January 21 , 1976, and not the $2, 68 8,4 00 as was submitted by W. W. Construction on the 27th of May, 1975 . Mr.

Ch airman, the plans and the specifications confirm a drastic reduction in size of the total project, which is further supported by the price which was $2 ,6 88 ,4 00 tendered by W. W. Construction in May, 1975, and the present contract which is awarded to Poole Construction for $1 ,90 0, 000 confirms again not a minor change but a ma jor change to the pro ject . Mr. Ch airman, with the project substantially reduced in size of approximately $700, 000, the award has been made without going for these particular three things .

The award has been made without going for public tender; it has been made without having competitive prices to the original bidders; and has been made witho ut the Provincial Governmen t being able to substantiate to the Manitoba taxpayer that the price paid was justified. Mr. Ch airman, I would suggest that the Ministe r confirm to me and to the committee that both Poole and W. W. Construction were given plans and specifications to retender, date unknown. But, Mr. Speaker, the Mini ster confirmed that Poole Construc tion submitted their price in writing on June 5th, 1975, and that W. W.

Construction had telephoned in and the Minister confirmed that W. W. Construction did not submit their price in writing by the closing date. Well, Mr . Speaker, W. W. Construction again denies having received any plans, any specifications from which he could resubmit a written tender. W. W. Construction, Mr. Chairman, only asked to phone in ball park figures which was requested and which was complied with . So the Ministe r has challenged that construction company to prove that they were not asked to submit a bid in writing on or about June 5th, 1975, for the above named project. Mr.

Chairman, I would say to the Minister that w. w. Construction accepts the challenge and points out to the Mini ster on the photocopies that were made from plans and specifications date January 21st, 1976 - and that's the drawing titles (a)(

l) for tender January 21s t, 197 6. These drawings, Mr. Chairman and members of the com mittee , and specifications were never received by W. W. Construction. May I repeat, these drawings and these specifications were never recei ved by W. W. Construction. So, Mr. Chairman, I would point out that neither the plans nor the specifications were given to the firm prior to the subseq uent June 5th, 1975 date, nor to this date have they been submitted to him for re-tendering. So, Mr.

Chairman, the Manitoba contractors as well as the Manitoba taxpayers are hard done by this procedure which I'm reading into the record at this time . A MEMBER: Must be a new policy of the government, Wally. MR . McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman, the contractor when there' s very little work going around and prices are coming higher in 1975 than they did in the first few months, as it was in housing and other matters, I can't understand why W. W. Construction was not considered in this matter. MR . CHAmMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Ro uge; MR . AXWOR THY: Mr.

Chairman, there are a couple of matters that I wanted to bring up in the discussion on the Minister's Salary and I apologize for not having had the opportunity to bring them up perhaps under their specific items , but I wasn't in com mittee at that particular point. One of them is of real concern to me and that is the continuing discrimination against the Inner City of Winnipeg when it comes to community recreation parks and open spaces .

The Minister will recall that we had kind of a long standing debate last year about the way in which the provincial grants worked to the disfavour or disadvantage of the inner city . If the Ministe r recalls, at that time he admitted - I believe it's on the record in Hansard - that in fact the $1 5, 000 community

391 0 May 17, 19 76 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• recreation grant and other forms of distribution to the City of Winnipeg in fact did not end up servicing some 70, 000 or 80, 000 people who live in the downtown oldest portions simply because they didn't have the political muscle or political power in council to achieve that.

I believe at that time the Minister indicated he was going to take a look at how we could get around that and if there were special projects that could be specifically designed for the recreational interest of people who live in the downtown, then the province might be prepared to give it some special considera- tion. Mr.

Chairman, in between last year's Es timates and this year's Estimates, I had occasion to test that particular problem out because last summer an older resident who lived in the Broadway-Ass iniboine area drew to my attention how back in the old days the Assiniboine River became an area for winter recreation purposes . The river was very useful for skating purposes and you could have toboggan runs and snow slides and generally for very little money the river became the focal point of recreation for many periods during the Second World War and for years after. He asked me the question, why we don't do it again?

Because the population now in this area on both sides of the Red and Assiniboine are composed mainly of young adults who really don't have many recreational outlets or older people who also like to have some place in the wintertime, summertime where they can go. Following up on that, Mr. Chairman, we were able to develop a proposal for, in a pilot way, turning the Assiniboine River into a skating rink similar to what they do in the Ottawa national capital.

We had some engineers test it out and they came up with a very modest sum, I think it was $18,0 00, to provide two large skating rink areas, plus lighting, plus refreshment booths and changing rooms. The engineers looked at it, they said it was totally safe to do it, that the protection and safety of people would be regis tered. The community committees on both sides of the river, on Fort Rouge side, the Centennial Community Committee, all agreed to it so it was agreed to by the councillors, by the residents of both those areas, by the official bodies that speak for the areas.

The thing went to Public Works Committee on which there is not one councillor from the inner city and it was turned down even though at the same time they were approving $400, 000 arenas for suburban areas. So if there was ever a clear indication, Mr. Chairman, for a need to change the funding formula it was that. Here was an area in which there is close to, I would estimate 70, 000 or 8 0, 000 people, if you take in both sides of the river, many of whom are in the young adult and senior citizen category.

There's virtually no facilities at all of any kind and at the same time we're ignoring many of the interesting possibilities to use our natural landscape like our rivers simply because this area doesn't have that kind of leverage that it should have on council. It just isn't able to get anything. So it really comes back to a fundamental point, Mr. Chairman. I think that the province needs to change the basis upon which it helps this particular community.

You know 70, 000 to 80, 000 people represent close to 10 percent of the Province of Manitoba when you really look at those numbers, who really don't get any assistance at all. I recognize the problem the Minister has in terms of municipal control and I'm cognizant of that. I do think there are ways of getting around it. I think first there are certainly ways by setting some conditional grants so that they're simply not used accord ing to the overall council priorities but that there can be some specific purposes assigned.

There could be a special grant category for uses such as that or the province could do as I have recommended in the past. That is, because the Provincial legislative Building occupies this area, it could take on special responsibility almost as a capital region. Because of the importance of ensuring that this area in the proximity of the le gislative Buildings has a proper environment and a proper ambience, it really is important that the province help the City of Winnipeg to provide effective recreational open space, park facilities, in this downtown area, which it doesn't have at the present time. Mr.

Chairman, I would suggest that there are ways of getting around that problem of municipal control. I think we could probably say that we would like to have a special capital region or capital area district fund that would be available for things that we wanted to use , the rivers in the winter time, set up special recreation. programs

May 17, 1976 3911 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR . AXWORTHY cont'd) ••••• in the summertime, open up some spaces even to the point where in many of our large apartment blocks that occupy the downtown area, they have open spaces on the roofs and some of their playrooms that could be turned into community recreation areas. I can give you another example, Mr. Ch airman.

I guess one of the primary requirements for young adults is a place where they can do some individualized activities like tennis or badminton or squash, some of the racquet games, where they get some exercise, where they get some en joyment, There's virtually nothing available other than the private clubs in the area, So you have li terally thousands upon thousands of young adults, young working people in this area who have nowhere to go, no place to play tennis in the summer, no place to play squash or handball or racquet ball in the wintertime and as a result they are simply deprived of any opportunity for physical exercise, for recreation or for community activity .

We haven't really undertaken any kind of imaginative use of the buildings in the downtown area. There are some churches in the area; there's Provincial Government buildings themselve s; there is some open spaces. With a little bit o£ imf;.ginati.on ::;u;Jplicd with some money, we could ruake sure that these 60, 000, 70, 000 people got proper opportunities. I would ::>n.y trnt w<: have far less recreation opportunities than many small towns in the province, of le ss than 10 percent of the population of this area. I think that by any recreational study we are simply poor cousins.

We always like to talk about the city-rural, sort of city slicker versus the poorer country cousins. Well, in this case , let me tell you it's the people in the downtown area of the city who are really suff ering because they don't have any recreation opportunities. So while there is a certain jurisdictional handicap, I think with some imagination that handicap could be overcome. I would really like to see that the admission that the Minister made in the last Estimates, maybe we could put some fle sh on it and try and see if we could work up a program in this area.

Frankly I think the longer we leave it go I think the problem is going to get worse as the population grows in this area. So I am disturbed by it, Mr. Chairman. The fact that it also happens to be in my constituency just adds to my concern because I think it is something that I can daily sort of see the problems that exist. There's one other question or concern to raise with the Minister and that has to do with this question of historical designation. Mr.

Chairman, again it comes out as a consequence of the fact that my own constituency straddles both sides of the river but also contains within it some of the primary historical spots of the City of Winnipeg. Not one or two houses but large numbers of older homes, churches and so on which are historically very important and yet receive almost no assistance in their preservation. I'm wondering, Mr . Chairman, and perhaps the Minister could give me some informa tion about what in God's name is the Heritage Foundation doing with itself ? How much money has it had ?

We passed a bill in this House last year; I asked a question about how much money it was going to get, the Minister said he wasn't too sure how much it was going to get and I don't think it's enough to preserve your heritage by taking one house or something that a forme r Premier or Minister of Tourism happened to occupy 50 years ago, if there was such Ministers. I think what should happen is we should be designating areas in the city as historical areas, that the whole area itself became des ignated and that therefore a number of improvements could be made.

I could think of the area in the Roslyn Road-Osborne Street area where you have a number of very fine old churches and community buildings which need to be turned towards some kind of community use . Otherwise they're going to be torn down and their only future is the jackhammer. I think, Mr. Chairman, to allow that to happen, not only would we lose a he ritage, we'd lose very important parts of our community resources in terms of having interesting neighbourhoods that supply a kind of opportunity for variety in our city that would otherwise be denied.

I don't agree with the historical sort of monument idea that you pick one place and you get it all fixed up . That's useful to have but I really think that we should get into the area of designating larger communities and neighbourhoods as historical areas and therefore being able to supply some money even for basic servicing in those areas

3912 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. AXW ORTHY cont'd) •• and helping, for example, a number of the churches. I can think of three or four churches which are over 60 years old, have some of the finest architecture in western Canada and yet they are probably destined for being pulled down unless so mething is done right away . In examining the sources of the funds, Central Mortgage and Housing doesn't pay for things like that, the Federal Government doesn't have money for that, the province doesn't have money, the city doesn't have money - so what happens ?

Yo u're kind of left with these things being torn down. The same is true with many of our fine older apartment blocks. I don't Imow if the Minister has had an opportunity to visit some of the apartments across the river or on this side of the river. If he has he might not want to admit it. The fact of the matter is that many of them again are sterling examples of unique architecture in this area. They also provide an awful lot of valuable housing and also do an awful lot to provide a kind of a character to the community that will be lost. So I would again suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that when it comes time to making some use of this increasing awareness of historical things that we just don't deal with little artifacts or gimmickries or so on, that we really look at the full area of containing full historical communities and try to preserve them and maybe the Minister of Tourism and Recreation should get together with the Minister of Urban Affairs and start working out joint programs to help the city in preserving these very valuable communities. Mr. Chairman, those are the two concerns I had.

Again I apologize to the Minister for not being available when these were raised in his specific items but I hope he'll be able to provide some answers to these two items at this point. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR. DESJARDllilS: Mr. Chairman, I just want to take a few minutes to discuss the lottery with my honourable friend. I don't want to cover anything else . I lmow that the Minister is very capable of answering for his department. On the question of the lottery, because I am involved, I'd like to speak for a couple of minutes.

I want to say to my honourable friend that he is absolutely right. Three years ago when the national lottery was started the statement was very clear that it would be only until the end of the Olympic Games and that no province need participate if they didn't wish and it ook an Order-in-Council for each and every province that wanted to participate • It was understood that the funds, the revenue from that would not go to capital investment for facilities and so on. That was well understood.

That was one of the reasons why they were asking the other provinces to participate was to help the athletes and to host the games . They had to take care of the athletes when they come here and there's quite a few expenses but not for capital. Now certainly with the Imowledge, the Federal Government was aware of this, there was a task force set a few months ago - a year ago I gu ess they started talking about it - where the ten provinces participated.

Nine provinces were in agreement and the tenth province - but I must explain the Province of Quebec, the people that were there went along with it and there's no doubt that they were going to try to retain if at all possible the lottery to pay for the deficit or at least try to extend it for one more or two more lotteries with the consent of the provinces. We were practically ready to start because it was fe1t that there should not be any period between the lottery as we lmow it now, the Olympic lottery, and then the change.

It shouW replace the other one and be ready to get started as soon as the other one terminated. The intention was that there'd be four partners: there wouW be the Western Canada Lottery Foundation representing the four provinces from the west; the Wi ntario, the ontario lottery; the Quebec lottery and the Atlantic lottery because Newfoundland was involved with the Maritimes . That corporation at the top, the umbrella type of corporation, wouJ,d run the lottery but the marketing would be left to each partner. If they wanted to push that was their business . The division of funds also would be left to the partners.

Now at present each province receives 50 - well, this is what we 're toW, what I'm told. There may be some prov inces had a little better deal but it wouldn't be very much more . It wouldn't vary too much. There was 50 cents for each ticket soW that was returned to the province where the ticket was purchased. Then there's 45 cents that would go to the retailer and 45 cents to the wholesaler or distributor.

May 17, 1976 3913 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. DESJARDINS cont'

d) If you recall it took a little while before the western provinces were involved because the Loto, the Olympic lottery wanted to deal only with the banks and that is a point that hasn't been covered and this is very important. The bank was taking the full 90 cents. That's nine percent but not nine percent a year . There's four draws so they would get nine percent four times a year and then besides that, as soon as the tickets come in, they get rid of many of them. So that money was used constantly and it meant that it was making a lot more money and of course all this was sent back east.

They said that that was the only way it could happen. We held strong on that and so they said okay, market it and do whatever you want with it and this is where we have the distributors receive 45 cents and the retailer receives 45 cents . So we were very surprised last week. Although a few days before, as you remember I mentioned in this House , that there had been rumours that maybe they would do something like that . Now I was asked this question: is there anything that we can do about it? First of all they didn't discuss this with the other provinces at all, including Alberta.

I think they 're trying to buy Alberta, somebody from the west. It might be that Alberta will decide to go along with this lottery - well not go along, everybody will have to go along but they will support it if they get a larger share . But they hadn't been consulted at all. Now it seems quite obvious that there had been some discussion between the Federal Government and the Government of the Province of Quebec because they were all set to go and tentatively I think they were going to make an announcement on the same day when Bourassa would bring in his budget and the announcement in the House of Commons.

So now the situation is th is . I don't think they even need legislation except that they will form a corporation. It will be a Federal company. They can come in and they don't have to use our system or our retailers or anybody. They don't need to have the okay from any provinces and they can start their lottery. Now my honourable friend says , what can we do about it. We can't stop that.

But the intention is now - I think there'll be an invitation to the provinces, those that are seriously wanting to do something about it anyway, to meet maybe next week and there are three provinces at least in western Canada and possibly Alberta will come in also.

Ontario I understand is certainly setting up something and they will start the lottery, where they would be ready to help us set up again an umbrella corporation of some kind and to compete, if that is the word, with the government lottery, the Federal Government lottery and we would have pretty well what we intended to have in the first place without Quebec, and if Alberta participates in the other lottery, without Alberta and one or two of the Maritimes are not interested, I think that we can compete.

You can have a situation where the national lottery, that is the Federal Government lottery, would be sold, could be sold, without seeking permission from the provinces all across Canada. Then you would have the ot her participating provinces and you can have one - I think Ontario is ready to go and they've been selling about 40 percent of the lotteries, but probably anywhere from four to eight provinces who would have their own lottery. An Order-in-Council would have to be passed for the provinces that would want to participate. Then you would have, let's say, a competition between the two.

If this goes on I can tell you that in Manitoba as far as I'm concerned the advertising will be: keep your money in Manitoba or in the west and still get a chance at a million. So that, in a few words , gives you an indication of where we 're at at this time.

3914 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the Minister of Health and Social Development for giving those explanatory notes pertaining to lotteries and where we stand as a province in regards to the Federal plan and the pJ.rticipation with other provinces in Canada. The honourable members are aware that we're now dealing with at least half of my salary, there's half on Co-operative Development.

So if there's any desire on the part of members to discuss related matters that I have, not co-operative development, but liquor control they can do so now. I would prefer that they do it now instead of doing it under Co-operative Development because the Order-in-Council appointing me Minister responsible for The Liquor Control Act was as Minister of Tourism, Recreation and CUltural Affairs. I take> with some understanding, the desire of the Honourable Member for Roblin not wanting us to impose an overload in taxation to the industry. We haven't really done that in 1976- 77.

We haven't increased drastically the amount that we expect from them pertaining to concessions that they operate in provincial parks and that's only citing one example. We haven't increased fees in pJ.rks, again to cite them as an example, over and beyond what we consider to be reasonable. We've authorized an increase in fees of 10 percent in most areas and we felt that we needed this additional revenue to meet at least a bit more of the cost of operating facilities.

Last year we picked up only about 18 percent of the operating costs of facilities and the additional 10 percent in fees will not take that much more. I'm quite aware of the Faulkner cultural plan. We are to some degree discussing not only with the Honour able Minister, Secretary of State, but in most cases discussing with quite a few Ministers in Ottawa ;or their officials _.pertaining to programs that we can offer on a joint basis: Parks Canada, Indian Affairs and so on. I believe there's more to be had through goo::l communication with other levels of government and to have a cbntinuous confrontation.

We're having, I believe to be, pretty goo::l discussions in the last week or so with the officials of the Minister responsible for Parks Canada pertaining to programs that we intend to initiate on the jo int basis in the upcoming year. The split responsibility between recreation and sports is something the honourable member felt advisable to bring again on my salary which I take with a grain of salt in the sense that I don't see the conflict that he sees in there, at least not to the same degree. I think that we can co-operate, co-ordinate our activities without causing conflict and duplication.

Hecla Island resort. Well again the honourable member in all justice brought the points that he had in his file. I indicated last Friday that the information that I received from my officials I related to the House as I got it. The correspondence that I had with the individual in question is equally available for the record. I' ve invited comments directly from the contractor in question pertaining to the last communication, written communication that I sent him. He has certain recourse that I would certainly ask him to avail himself of if he feels he was ill treated.

I don't intend to play favour itism with anyone in society unless it's for a just cause. Here I'm talking about people that are considered to be handicapped or not able to provide all services for themselves. But if it's for a question of dealing with the marketplace and the competitive aspect of the marketplace, I want to be as fair as possible. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge brings again the point of discrimination between the citizens of Winnipeg and other citizens of the province.

There's really only one way I believe to deal effectively with the point that the honourable member brings forward again this year. The first option that we have available at our disposal is to suggest on stronger terms where funds should be made applicable. Failing the possibility of the City of Winnipeg responding to that strong suggestion of where we believe the need is, within the City of Winnipeg on a district basis, is to make the grants conditional.

We haven't seen fit to indicate, as an example, that the $500 ,0 00 that we paid to the City of Winnipeg last year under the Facility Grants Program that that be made applicable in the Osborne area or the Winnipeg north area where we felt there was a great desire

May 17, 1976 3915 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ••••. for the construction of facilities that would identify with the people in that given area. The same for the $285 ,0 00 Facility Grants that we made available to them last year. We only made suggestions to thBm pertaining to the allocation for community committees . It was really up to them to either make it applicable on a community basis or to have it all applied in two or three or six areas in the City of Winnipeg.

I still believe that it wculd be wise for the City of Winnipeg and its councillors to attempt to answer needs where they are more or most apparent. I believe that we happen to realize where some of these areas are and others don't seem to realize. We can either, like I said a while ago, make those grants very conditional or do it ourselves through Provincial and Federal programs. I think all three options are available to us . The designation of areas and sites of historical value wit..l-li.n the City of Winnipeg is certainly well taken.

I for one would not want to duplicate studies that are being con ducted now. Parks Canada is completing a study that I should have on my desk within a very few weeks of si tes within the City of Winhlpeg that can be considered, sites dating before 1916. The Ci ty of Winnipeg is completing a study that once they're able to make it available to us we can possibly help in construction or refurbishing of certain facilities directly or indirectly through the Heritage Foundation Board that is being set up now.

This is a quasi government body and will be supported by government ftmds and will hopefully receive private donations from individuals. As the honourable member is aware, about two years ago we passed

an Act that makes these donations to some degree tax deductible and it's certainly an incentive for individuals to participate financially. The lottery revenue. Hopefully that will bring additional funds and we can make funds available to this new board being set up now. So all in all, although we do have restraints, I feel that we do have some flexibility in doing things or at least making use of studies that are being had through different levels of government without doing our own.

In regards to historical sites and areas within the City of Winnipeg I am not wanting to pursue that through the department but await what is now being had. Pertaining to the other point that the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge makes, I would rather have a full discussion with especially my colleague responsible for Urban Affairs and city politicians before we strike a firmer policy pertaining to conditional grants. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. James . MR. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make a few comments at this time.

I hticln't really planned on speaking on the Minister's Salary but after hearing the Minister reply to what I consider serious charges by the Honourable Member from Roblin relating to the Gull Harbour Resort Hotel, I do feel that I have to make some comments at this time and to raise some questions to the Honourable Minister.

In my opinion it is a serious charge that we have heard the Minis ter state in the House the other night that he went for public tenders back in 1975, got the tenders, the public tender system, it was reviewed and then got verbal prices from one tender in June and got a written proposal from another in June. But I think the seriousness of the charge, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that there was some seven to eight months delay before a con tract was signed.

Not only that but I too have seen the photostat copy of part of the plans that made up this contract and there obviously is a considerable change in the configuration of the resort in size. Yet the two low bidders or even the lowest bidder did not have an opportunity to bid on this revised set of plans. That is a very serious change in govern ment policy. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask through you to the Honourable Minister, is this the new government policy that they have?

They go out for tender on a project, receive the tende rs, review them, de cide between maybe one or two of the low bidders to give revised pri ces, delay for a period of time and then go and select one of those particular bidders and change the plans and specs, and say: how much is it going to cost us to build? Then not ask the other low bidder to have an opportunity to bid. Because , Mr. Chairman, in governments> tende1·ing systems are important, they're very important. In the private industry it's a different matter.

If a private industry decides that they will go out and ask for a price from one or two people it's their business, it's their money. If they wish to pay more for a project then that's their business. But

3916 May 17, 1976 SUPPLY - TOURISM (MR. MINAKER cont'd) •• ••• it's always been a common practice in governments both municipal, provincial and federal, that the tendering policy is a principle when we're deal ing with large projects or large objects that you're purchasing above a certain level. To me, Mr. Chairman, $2 million is a lot of money. It might not be to the government but to me it 's a lot of money and it is to any contractor or any private industry. Mr.

Chairman, what we are looking at here is a set of circumstances where now this govern ment has decided to issue a contract for $2 million without going to tender on it. That's basi cally what they have done. The Honourable Member from Roblin laid the charge; the Hon,ourable Minister has not denied it, so one has to assume that it's correct. I have to now ask the Minister: Is this the new government policy on tendering for projects ? I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it's important to know if this is what's happening because 1) it costs people a lot of money to tender.

It 's not something that you just go out and throw a dart at a dart board and come up with a price. It costs money to tender and if the government is now taking this policy that they're only going out for check prices , the word will get around the industry and what you will find happen is that they will not bid because they cannot afford to spend thousands of dollars to tender on something that they know in the end will not be given to the lowest bidder, So what'll happen is --(I nterjection)-- That's right, Mr. Chairman.

They don't necessarily have to give it to the lowest bidder, but the key of the issue here is they not only didn't give it to the lowest bidder, when they retendered or when they decided to go out with new specificiations and plans, they didn't even ask the lowest bidder to have an opportunity to bid on the same set of specs. They just went to a contractor and said: How much? I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it's very important that we keep the tendering system in Manitoba because it means saving money for the taxpayers. I think we can cite an example in the elderly persons housing on Stella and McGregor.

Manitoba Housing and Renewal Corporation - the original tender went out I think in November of 197 5 for some 105 units. They ended up getting a total price of something like $2 ,3 70, 923 . It worked out to around roughly $22, 500 per unit. They retendered in April of this year and as a result of retendering they decided it was over budget, they couldn't afford. They re tendered but they publicly retendered, Mr. Chairman. The new prices came in at $1 8, 500 a unit. They saved 18 percent. Why didn't they do the same thing on this particular project, Mr.

Chairman, and show a saving even maybe greater than what they have ? Because we don't know whether it's a saving, Mr. Chairman, when the plans and specs have been changed. You're not bidding on apples to apples ; you're bidding on apples and oranges. But they only asked for one price from one contractor on the new change, Mr. Chairman. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, and I hope the Honourable Minister will advise us: is this a new policy of the government ?

Is this the new technique of going out for prices, looking at the prices, deciding they're too much ,then selecting one person and going to him, one of the tenderers and say: How much for this change ? But not going back to the other low tenderers. Mr. Chai

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-115
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 115.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4dda5c8094a03e59d65be19e24f49cd2a5c4bf26

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