LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA Friday, 28 March, 1980 Time : 10:30 a.m. OPENIN G PRAYER by Mr . Speaker. MR . SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (B irtle-Russ ell) : Presenting Petit ions • Reading and Receiving Pet itions ••• PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMI TTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson . MR. ABE KOVNATS : Mr. Speaker, The Committee of Supply has adopted a cer­ tain Resolution, direc ts me to report same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden, report of Committe e be received. MOTION presented and car ried . MR.

SPEAKER: Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports • • • Notices of Motion •• • INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON . L.R. (Bud ) SHERMAN introduced Bill No . 28 , The Sanatorium Board of Manitoba Act. (Recommended by His Honour the Lieute nant-Govern or. ) BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR . SPEAKER : Before we proceed any further, I have been asked to draw to the honourable members ' atten tion a problem that seems to be occurring with Mani­ toba Telephone System in the use of the tel ephones out in Room 269 here . Members are being asked not to direc t-dial between the hours of 8:00 and 5:00 .

Direct Dialing should only occur af ter that time when you ' re making calls outside the province . Under the present, system you 'r e supposed to use the Operator, I guess, between the hours of 8:00 and 5: 00. There will be a directive circulated to all membe rs. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At the same time, I should like to draw the honourable mem­ bers ' atte ntion to the Speak er 's Galler y where we have a visitor, Mr . Gian Bettamio, the General Secretar y of the European People 's Party, here from Brussels. He is here on a parliamentary visit.

On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this morning. I should like to als o draw the honourable members ' attention to the galler y on my left, where we have 40 students from Westgage Mennonite Collegiate, under the direction of Mr. Leonard Wiebe . They als o have, as their guests , 40 students from Rockway Mennonite School in Kitchener, Ontario. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this morning . ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet . MR. SAMUEL USKIW : Mr .

Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister of Agr­ iculture whether he can inform us as to the number of hopper cars that he now has in service on a lease basis on beh alf of the province of Manitoba? - 1749 -

Friday , 28 March , 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur ): The first group of cars , Mr. Speaker , there were 300 cars in the lease that are supposed to be in service by approximately the 15th of March. The additio nal 100 cars are be ing negoti ated on at this particular time. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speak er, could the Minister indicate the le ngth of the ter m of the lease , wheth er it is by the month or by the year , or what is the commitment of the province with respect to that operation? MR. DOWNEY: The 300 cars that I speak about , Mr.

Speake r, the first term of the lease is for six months with the option to renegotiate the lease at that particular time. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask the Minister in charge of MHRC whether he can inform the House as to who the purchaser was of the properties in East Selkirk that he reported on to the House ju st a few days ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Deve lopment. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek ): Mr. C.V. Waytiuk put in a bid of $6 7, 250.00. MR. USKIW: Could the Minister als o indicate what is the disposition of the other lands held by MHRC.

Are they als o being sold , or has there been a settle­ ment with Triangle Farms or Saunders , the former owner of the parcel adja cent to the village? Has that been dealt with or finaliz ed , Mr. Speaker? MR. JOHNST ON: Mr. Spea er, I know that parcel of land the honourable member is speaking of, we have had negotiations with some people on it. When he asks, final ized , I don't think it has but I would like to be accu rate for the memb er, and I will check into it and give him an answer. I don't believe that piece of property , that there has been anything finalized on it. MR. USKIW: We ll, Mr.

Speake r, just to be precise , I would like to know whether the purchase has been completed , or whether there is still some litigation on that one. MR. JOH NSTON: I will get the member the informat ion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , in the absence of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs, I wonder if I can direct my question to the Acting Minister.

Would the Minister consider meeting with the operators of supermarkets to discuss possible legis lation , or if that is not enforcea ble , at least the uni­ form regulation for shopping carts? I think there is quite an abuse and this high cost of food , the consumer is paying for that. I can say that a couple of days ago , I saw at least 10 shopping carts in about three bl ocks. A couple of months ago , there was one night coming back around 11:30 on a slippery street , there was one in the middle of the street , and I couldn 't do anything but hit it; I saw it at the last minute and as I say , at night.

I wonder if that is possible? There is such an abuse and it is ce rtainly co st the consumer something. I have seen broken ones , all kinds. I wonder if that could be done , if he would discuss it? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charles wood): Mr. Speake r, I would be quite happy to take that question , that suggestion of the honourable member , as notice for the Minister of Consumer Affairs , and say to him that in the mean time , perhaps the Attorney-General could enl ighten us as to whether or not there is a sufficient - 1750 -

Friday , 28 March , 1980 body of law , either in the Criminal Code or otherwise , to prevent the kind of mis­ use of th is convenience which is often found in circumstances just as my honour­ able friend describ es . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR : Mr . Speak er , I would like to direct this question to the Minister of Transportation and Highways . Would the Minister of Highways and Transportation project a target date re weight restrictions implementation to give rural, especially farmers , some advance warning or lead time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways.

HON. DON ORCHARD (Pembina) : Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Member for Virden for giving me advanc e warning of th is. As I mentioned yesterday , restr ic­ tions come on when the road defle ctions indicate that harm will come to the road surfac e. The deflection reports are coming in Monday , and we expect that we will have to implement road restrictions on either April 7 or April 10. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK : Mr. Speaker, Honourable Minister of Highways. Could cease violating the Highways Depa rtment fiscal year ending March 3lst , 1979?

I wish to direct my question to the he indicate to the House when he will law and table his Annual Report for the MR. ORCHARD : Mr . Speaker , it is expected that my Highways Annual Report will be available the first week in April. MR. HANUSCHAK : A supplementary question, Mr . Speak er. Could the Minister indicate to the House the reason for the delay? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . HON . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris) Mr .

Speake r, I wonder if my honourable friend would mind if I undertook to provide an answer to that particular question, since the Queen 's Printer comes under the jurisdiction of my department . In October, there was rather an unusual set of circumstanc es connected with this particular proje ct, and perhaps my honourable friend would be well advised to get this information so that he will know exactly what has happened. In October of 19 79 , Mr . Glen Charles , a Department of Highways employee , passed away . Mr. Charles was the person who was responsible for the preparing of the de partment 's Annual Reports .

The ensuing restructuring in the department caused the delay in the Department of Highways getting their printing request in to the Queen 's Prin­ te r. A requisition dated February 14 , 1980 , was received by the Queen 's Printer asking that "rush" printing of the de partment 's report take place : 100 copies wanted by March 10 , 1980 , for the Minister 's office and 300 copies wanted by March 17 , 198 0 , for the de partment .

The Queen 's Printer tendered out this request be­ cause of the time frame , four weeks request , and economies of sca le , that is , the number of pages could be done more ec onomically by a printing company than by the Queen 's Printer , or basically a photostating operation. On Tuesday , February 19, the tender docket was prepared. On Thursday , Fe bruary 21 , a bid table set up . Printers are made aware of the job and may come to the actual table to see the type of work to be done . On Wednesday , February 27 , quotes are due by 4:3 0 p.m . from prospective tenderer s.

On Monday , March 3, since there were no quotes receiv ed , the printing of the Annual Report, the Queen 's Printer contacted the previous year 's printer for the job , Graf-Tech of Gimli , and asked them if they would be willing to accept the job. The company agreed . And because of those dela ys , the report has not been received yet . We regret that this took place, but I could assure my honourable friend that every effort will be made to ensure that report is tabled as quickly as possible . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Rossmere . - 1751 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. VIC SCH ROEDER: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Min­ ister of Educ at ion. Could he advise the House as to what progress , if any , has been made at Elkhorn School , and as to whether the chi ldren are back in the school in Elkhorn? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli) : Mr . Speaker , it is my understanding that the two parties are still negotiating , and the chi ldren are not in school at this time . MR. SCHROEDER : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . A supplementary to the Minister of Education .

Can he advise the House as to whether there has been a further meetin g arranged between him and the Residents• Committee from Elkhorn in order to solve this matter? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker , I can advise the Member for Rossmere that there is not a meeting scheduled at th is time . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supple mentary . MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you , Mr . Speaker . A question for the Attorney­ -Gener al. Last week he took a question as notice deal ing with the matter of the 2, 000 truants in the City of Winnipeg .

He indicated that it was his view that something had been done by this administration to improve the situation. I would ask the Attorney-Gene ral what exactly it is that has been done to improve the situation with re spect to truants in Winnipeg, and what he is proposing to do to ensure that this government is not involved in contributing to the delinquency of these juveniles by not requiring them to be in schoo l. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourble Attorney-G ener al . HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (O sborne) : Mr. Speake r, I took that question as notice, I believe , earl ier this week .

I hope to have an answer for the member early next week. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBU RY: Mr . Speaker , I have a question for the Honourable Min­ ister of Urban Affai rs. Was there a meeting held yes terday with the official dele gation of the City of Winnipeg relative to the right of the Municipality of Rosser to make its own determinations in zoning matters? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Urban Affa irs. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , there was a meeting held ye sterday with the official dele gation of the City of Winnipeg to discuss the additional zone in gen­ eral , and in particular , the appl ication of the Municipality of Rosser to join a planning district . MRS. WESTBU RY: A supple mentary , Mr . Speaker. Would the Minister advise the House what answer was given to the official dele gation relative to the Munici­ pality of Rosser 's appl ication? MR. MERCIER : Mr. Speak er, there was no de termination.

We discussed with the city of Winnipeg the provisions of The Planning Act , the protection afforded to the City of Winnipeg under The Planning Act , and in gener al , planning concerns of the city . On our side , Mr . Speake r, we have a Committee of Cabinet in caucus that were part of the discussions yest erday . We intend to meet with the Munici­ pality of Rosser and other additionals own municipalities to also discuss their concerns with respect to this matter be fore any final deter mination of the matter is made. - 1752 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supple­ mentary. MRS. WESTB URY: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. Would the Minister of Urban Affairs advise the House whether there has been an approach made by the official delegation of ask ing the government to intercede in the matter of divert ing the transportat ion of dangerous chemicals by railroad from the centre of the city , so that they will go outside of the city? Has this gove rnment been approached by the official delegation on this matter? MR. MERCIER : No, Mr . Speak er. MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. WIL SON PARASIUK: Mr . Speak er, my quest ion is directed to the Minister of Health . In view of the fact that the College of Physicians and Surgeons has ruled that Dr. Owen Schwartz be suspended for th ree months and be requ ired to pay cost s even greater than that recommended to it by the inquiry , is the Minister now going to do what he promised us a few weeks ago in the House and look into this matter to ensure that the College of Physicians and Surgeons is not disc riminating against a doct or who is practic ing preventative medicine? MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speak er, we have alr eady done what the honourable member suggests I promised to do in this House in terms of looking into this matter . I have been kept informed of the proceed ings and the disposition of the proceed­ ings . I understand that the question of costs and the levying of those costs is a matter that Dr. Schwart z is considering taking to appeal at this ju ncture on the basis of

interpretations of certain sections of The Medical Act. I would have no further comment on that at this point in time. I don't think it would serve any useful purpose to offer my opinions as to his course of ac tion with respect to an appeal against the cos ts. MR. PARASIUK : Yes , in view of the fact that Dr. Charles Green , who was physician to the late Prime Minister of Canada , John G. Diefenba ker , in view of the fact that Dr. Green was prevented from appearing bef ore the inquiry of Dr . Schwartz by the the inquiry panel , and that he in fact has been quoted as saying that Dr.

Schwartz is in fact rec eiving dirty pool from the inquiry and from the College of Physicians and Surgeons in the light of those comments by Dr . Green , is the Minister of Health sat isfied that ju st ice has been done by the Colle ge of Physicians and Surgeons in this inquiry of Dr . Owen Schwartz? MR. SPEAKER: Order ple ase . The Honourable Attorney-Genera l. MR. MERCIER : On a point of order , Mr . Speak er . As the Minister of Health indicated , this matter is still subje ct to appeal to the courts and is under considerat ion, Mr . Speaker , and I therefore suggest that the quest ion is out of or der. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposit ion on a point of order. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk ): Mr . Speaker , to the point of order , it is my understandin g that only the issue of costs are presently the subject of appeal . My col league is enquiring from the Minister as to general policy direction on the part of his ministry perta ining to those in medicine that are practising preventa­ tive forms of medic ine , and surely my honourable friend is stretching the rules of sub judice way too far under these circumstanc es. MR . SHERMAN : Mr .

Speaker , I'm sure that I can answer the main thrust of the honourable member 's question within the parameters of propriety. What the honourable member is asking me , as I read it , whether I think there has been come "d iscrimination" invoked against the practice and the concept of holistic - 175 3 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 medicine . I am assured , and I am fully satisfied in my own mind , Mr . Speaker, that that has not been the case . This was not an inquiry into holistic medicine . It was not a critique of hol istic med icine. It was a critique of speci fic management and administration of individual cases between the doctor and individual patients, and the Colle ge didn 't initiate this process . There were eight complaints that were levied from the general public , from patients of the doctor in question. The College then found it incumbent to investigate . MR.

SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: I would like to ask the Minister if he would investigate whether in fact Dr . Charles Green , who is a practitioner of holistic medicine and the physician to the late Prime Minister of Canada , John Dief enbaker , whether in fact that man was prevented from appearing before the inquiry , as he intended to do , to support Dr. Owen Schwartz, and whether in the light of that , the Minister fee ls that justice has been served? MR.

SHERMAN: My answer to the honourable member with respect to whether justic has been served is an answer that ha s to be made in the context of the res­ ponsibilities of the Colle ge of Physicians and Sur geons. If he is ask ing me , do I think that the College has met the ethical requirements , the requirements of its responsibility as a body to protect the public of Manitoba and ensure the highest standards of medical practic e, yes , I believe justice has been met and justice has been served. I think that is the question that the ca se really turned on, Mr .

Speaker , not different philosophies or concepts of medic ine . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . Vit al. MR. D. JAMES WALDI NG : Thank you , Mr . Speaker. My question is to the Hon­ ourable First Minister. The report that the Minister tabled ye sterday on the Wes­ tern Power Grid in support of his statement was dated February of 1979 . The Min­ ister of Energy made a statement in October that econ omic feasi bility studies were under way and were expected to be ready by February I'm sorry , by Decem ber.

Can the Honourable First Minister now inform the House whether those economic feasi­ bility stud ies have been complet ed , and would he ta ble them in the House? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable First Minister . MR. LYON : Mr . Speaker , I regret I was otherwise engaged and didn't hear the first part of my honourable friend 's ques tion . MR. SPEAKER : Would the Honourable Member for St . Vital repeat his ques­ tion , please? MR. WALDING : I'l l try , Mr. Speaker.

The report that the First Minister had tabled in the House yesterday in support of his statement was dated February 16th , I bel ieve was the date of the transmitt al . The Minister of Energy stated in October of 1979 that economic feasibil ity stud ies were under way and were expected to be completed by Dece mber of 1979 . Can the Minister inform the House whether tho se stud ies are now complet ed , and would he table them in the House? MR. LYON : Mr . Speaker , I will be happy to take that question as notice for the Minister. He will be back with us on Monday , God will ing. MR. WALDI NG : Yes , Mr .

Speak er , a supplementary question. I notice that the report that the Minister had tabled was a grid study for four provinces . The agreement that the Minister als o studied was for three provinces only . Does the fact that British Columbia has now opted out of this agreement invalidate the pre­ sent study , and has the Minister other studies that would show a feasibi lity for a prairie grid as opposed to a western grid that was originally proposed? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speak er, I had re iterated and made it cl ear ye sterday in my statem te nt , and certainly I know it has been a matte r of public record for some - 1754 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 considerable time , that the original concept of a four-province grid had been readapted to a three-p rovince grid on the basis of the decision of British Columbia that they , at this time , did not wish to participate in the four-province grid . And it is subject to that decision , that report that my honourable friend has in his hand , which was tabled yest erday , was based on the four-province grid . I suggested in my statement yest erday I don 't have the exact words in front of me , Mr .

Speaker that the report necessarily then is out of date and is alt ered in con­ cept with respect to the four-province now becoming a three-p rovince grid . I hope that helps my honourable friend . MR. WALDIN G : Thank you , Mr . Speaker , it help s me somewhat . I have another question for the Honourable First Minister . Can he inform the House whether the discussions with Alberta to export Manitoba power are separate and distinct from the discussions involving the concept of a prairie grid , or are they part of those negotiations? MR. LYON : Mr.

Speaker , I would have to say and I have not been first of al l, I would qualif y by saying that I have not been personally involved in the ministerial discussions , and the answer might bet ter come from the Minister of Energy . My impression is , however , that it 's a little bit of both ; that individ­ ual discussions go on between the provinces and , as well , in the case of Manitoba and Saskatchewan from time to time , between the utilities with respect to their needs .

Some of the inter-t ies , as my honourable friend is well aware , between Manitoba and Saskatchew an are , of course , and have been for some time , in place. What we are talking about is a kind of transmission capa bility that would permit power in the amounts that were mentioned yest erday to be transferred through to Alberta with the possibility , which is an encouraging one at the present time , of Saskatchew an being interested in firm power purchases from Manitoba as well. MR. WALDING : A supplementary , Mr. Speake r. A matter of cl arification , if I may , from the First Minister.

Since the concept of a prairie grid suggests that savings can be made by def erring capital expenditures in new generation facilities being brought on stream , can the Honourable Minister explain to us why he is now talkin g about bringing forward the devel opment of limestone , if he is not also talkin g to Alberta about a dedicated production of that power to Alberta alone? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker , if my honourable will refer back to the earlier answer, he will find in it exac tly what he is alludin g to , namely that separate negotiat ions have been going on at the same time as the grid discuss ions with the province of Alberta at the governmental level beca use , of course, in the province of Alb erta, the major utili ty , that is, electric utili ty companies , are privately run they are not operated by government with the result that those dis- cussions go on at the governmental level as between Saskatchew an and Manitoba at the ministerial , as well as at the utility lev el .

But I'm sure that my honourable friend , if he will have patience until Monday , he might get further el ucidation from the Minister of Mines and Energy , who has been the key person involved in the discussions . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR . SAUL M. CHERNIACK : Thank you , Mr . Speaker . I want to address a ques­ tion to the First Minister who , on March 14th, undertook to invest igate whether any public opinion polls have been commissioned by any agenc ies of the govern­ ment . Is he now in a position to report? MR . LYON: No, Mr. Speaker. The ministries are being canvassed , however.

We have not lost sight of my honourable friend 's question . When I get a response , I'l l let him know. MR. CHERNIA CK : Thank you , Mr . Speaker , I thank th e First Minister. I now would like to address a question to the Minister of Health who is reported in the newspaper to have given an interview or made a stat ement in relation to a study of the Dental Health Program as comparing government and private dentist s' costs. Is - 1755 -

Friday , 28 March , 1 980 the Minister, in having made this statement , and having announced some of the con­ cl usions, is he prepared to make the report available to those us who have as keen an interest as he has in it? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN : Ye s, Mr . Speaker . I am prepared to do that . I would only say to my honourable friend that I made very few ref erences to conclusions in the report . The report was submitted to my office some 10 days ago , and the Chairman of the Review Committe , Dr.

Storey , has requested a meeting with me in connection with it , and that meeting will be held very shortly . I would like to hear from Dr . Storey prior to any further action , but it 's ce rtainly my intention to make that report available to all members of the House. MR. CHERNIACK : Mr . Speak er , in spite of the fact that the Honourable Min­ ister has not yet met with Dr . Storey , but has announc ed that the Committee has concluded that the program can be run as cheaply by private dentists as by govern­ ment staff .

Will the Minister inform us the extent to which he has investigated the true cost of the den tal plan within the Manitoba Dental Assoc iation of which he has no control , as compared with the two costs of the dental plan , govern­ mental , over which he has complete control. MR. SHERMAN: We ll , that 's one of the questions , no doubt , on which Dr. Storey wants to enter into discussion with me , Mr . Speake r. Obvious ly , the true cost has to be the cost arrived at , the figure arrived at , for determination of a future course of action with respect to the plan. I want to meet with Dr.

Storey to receive his comments relative to the conc lusions that are contained in the re port, and that is one of them. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Springfield . MR. BOB ANDERSON: Mr. Speak er, I' d like direct a question to the Minister of Cultural Affa irs. In the light of the financial crisis currently facing the Winnipeg Symphony Orche stra , what initiatives has the Minister und ertaken to reduce the severity of this situation in the long term? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Cultural Affairs . HON. NORMA L. PRICE (Assiniboia): Mr .

Speaker , I have already initiated two meetings with the Mayor of Winnipeg , the Chairman of the Man itoba Arts Coun­ cil , and some members of the Symphony , and we are going to make a more formal presentation , al though I'v e had an formal meeting with a couple of men from the Secretary of States Department in Ottawa . This meeting resulted in the fact that we have to have the as surance from the Symphony Board that they are going to have a responsible program, that they will be able to reduce the deficit in a very positive manner, and we are prepared to work with them in order to achieve that result . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill . MR. JAY COWAN : Mr . Speak er , I have opportunity to follow on that well­ -orchestrated question of the past few minutes . In a short preface to my question , Mr . Speaker , I'd like to extend our sympathy to the families and the friends of those involved in the tragic accident on the Trans-C anada Highway yesterday . I'd address my question to the Minister of Highways .

Can the Minister inform the House as to the extent of the spill of liquid fertilizer labelled 28-0-0 in ammonia nitrate solution, and in specif ic can he indicate how many gall ons of that material did spill? MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Highways . - 1756 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. ORCHARD : Mr . Speaker , the volume of 2,8 75 gallons of nitrogen solution fert ilizer were spilled in that accident . MR. COWA N: Mr. Speaker , with a spill of this nature of a confined area , one would expect that any contamination problems would be ground-water system con­ tamination problems . Can the Minister outline what procedures are being followed to capture and contain the spilled fertilizer? And can he also indicate what is being done to monitor any possible contamination that would result out of a spill of this quant ity occurring in a small area? MR. ORCHARD : Mr.

Speaker , I appreciate the member 's interest today on this subject and I'd like to inform him on it . I' ll answer ha lf the quest ion, then I'l l let my col leag ue , the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Minister responsible for the Environment answer the latter part . The cle an-up operation was undertaken yester day by removal of the snow with a bulldoz er , and significant quant ities as a matter of fac t the informat ion given to me is that no quant ities of the nitrogen solution fert ilizer were discovered at the spill site.

Further te sts are being undertaken today in the area to de termine where that quantity of solution fert ilizer went . Since the tanker overturned and was laying on the railway right-of-way , it is suspected and this should be confirmed later on today that that nitrogen solution fertilizer was absorbed by the gravel base in the rail roadbed . MR. COWAN: Thank you , Mr . Speaker. I' m pleased that the Minister of High­ ways seems to take more of an interest in this than the First Minister. Can the Minister of Environment --( Interje ction)- - The Minister spreads it every day in the House , Mr . Speaker .

My question is to the Minister of Environment , if I may , Mr. Speaker. As there have been a number of contradictory reports as to the date of the actual spill of chromic ac id at Canadian Bronze , can the Minister now confirm that the material was accidentally spilled several weeks ago but was not discovered until late last week , at which time notification was made? And can he further confirm that some chromic acids are suspected carci nogens and that they may pose a health hazard in respect to their carcinogenacy , as well as in respect to their ac idity? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . MR. JORGENSON : Mr . Speak er , the information that we have received is that the spill took place on Thursday . Now if my honourable friend has information beyond that , then I would be interested in learning of it . But we were told that the accident took place , and it could well be that it wasn 't not iced at that par­ ticular time . I'm not going to suggest that that is a definitive answer , becaus e all I am reporting is what we were told . So I hope that my honourable friend will come forth if he has information to the contrary .

With respect to the other part of his quest ion, I think I ca n't confirm that there are some carcinogenic properties contained in the acid , under certain cir­ cumstanc es. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . George . MR. BILLIE URUSKI : Thank you , Mr . Speaker .

I'd like to direct this ques­ tion to the Minister of Health and ask him , in view of the recent Lakeshore Dis­ trict Health Board 1 s unanimous dec ision after a meeting with the Manitoba Health Services Commission, to stay with the original plan of health care on the west side of the Interlake , with the additional inclusion of the Community of Lundar , for nursing home fac ilities is the Minister now prepared to amend his original announcement that he made into this House and proceed with the original proposal as recommended by the Board? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . - 1757 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. SHERMAN: I don 't antic ipate having any great difficulty with that course of action , Mr . Speak er , either with the Honourable Member for St . George or with the Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I would ask the Minister then , when is he prepared to let the tenders go on the nursing homes of Eriksdale and Lundar , plans of which were completed and ready to go to tender in 1977 ; and Asher n which was tendered and then stopped by the provincial government after the election? MR. SHERMAN: We ll , Mr .

Speak er, if we can ignore the re ferenc es and the propoganda in the latter part of the honourable memb er 's question , let me say that the --(I nterjection )-- gove rnment will be proceeding as quickly as possible, Mr . Speaker. The obvious result of the meeting held this week will be the forwarding of a formal resolution from the Lakeshore District Health System Board to my office, through the Health Services Commission. I believe that may have already taken place within the las t 24 hours . Once I have that formal resolution in front of me , we will proceed very quickly , Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . George with a final supple­ menta ry. MR. URUSKI: Ye s, Mr . Speaker . While the Minister indicates he will pro­ ceed very quickly , could he indicate what that "quickly" means , in terms of the program that was recommended by the board? What does that "quickly " mean with respect to the spec ifics of the program that has been recommended by the board , Mr. Speaker? MR. SHERMAN: Mr . Speak er, the Honourable Member for St . George has been in government . He knows what "quickly " means. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose . MR. A.R. (Pete ) ADAM: Mr .

Speaker , yesterday I asked the Minister of Transportation a question pertain ing to his meeting with Mr . Pepin in regard to the crow rate. Would he agree that since he did not deny that he had made a recommendation to abolish the crow , that that in fact means that he did make such a recommendation? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day . The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker , the Member for Ste . Rose is making cer tain agreem ents and conclusions .

In the course of the discussion with the Honourable Jean Luc Pepin , Minister of Transportation for the Canadian government , the subject of grain transportation came up , and whenever one discusses the subject of grain transportation in western Canad a, naturall y the subject of statutory and compensatory rates comes up , and those matters were discussed with Mr . Pepin. I would not like to have the Member for Ste. Rose leave the impression that a recommendation was made by myse lf to the Honourable Minister in regards to that subject matter. A rec ommendation as to finding a solution to that problem was mad e.

In other words, we in this province would like to see a resolution to the whole question of compensation to the railway companies for the movement of grain. We would like to see a resolution to that whole question very shortly , so that , Mr. Speake r, the farming community , not only in Manitoba , but in Saskatchewan and Albe rta , can properly gain the revenues that they so need when and if we can move the quant ities of grain that they are capable of producing. MR.

ADAM: Yes, could the Minister then advise if he did recommend to the Minister , the federal Minister , that the Crow rate be retained in its present form ; if he did make that rec ommendation to the Minister? - 1758 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR . ORCHARD : Mr . Speaker, I did not recommend to the Honourable Minister that the Crow rate should be retained or disbande d. MR. SPEAKER : mentary . The Honourable Member for Ste . Rose with a final supple- MR. ADAM : Yes , Mr . Speaker. I wonder if the Minister of Highways could advise if he did recommend to the federal Minister , Mr . Pepin , not to proceed with a compensatory rate for the railways , whether he did make that rec ommendat ion. MR . ORCHARD : We ll, Mr .

Speak er , in my discussion with the federal Minister of Transportat ion, I suggested to him that one of the greatest obstacles in front of the farmers , who are the most industrious group of people in Western Canad a, one of the major obsta cles, Mr. Speaker , I pointed out to the Federal Minister of Transportat ion, was the fact that they are unable this year , last year , the previous year , and in all years with the possible exception of 1973, our farming community have not had the opportunity to move the total volume of their produc­ tion.

They have been st ifled in their ef forts to more eff iciently produce greater quant ities of grain. And I suggested , Mr . Speake r, to the Federal Minister of Transportat ion, as many other farm groups have suggested to the Minister of Trans­ portation federal ly , that one of the major obst ac les to the movement of that grain has been proper compensation for the railroads. And I urged him to come up with a solution whereby the federal government would undertake proper compensat ion to the railroad so that the farming community in this province can derive the proper revenues that they so deserve .

And furthermore , Mr . Speaker , that they deserve and need . MR . SPEAKER : Order plese . The time for Question Period having expired •• • the Honourable Member for Logan. COMMITTEE CHANGES MR . WILLIAM JENKI NS : Mr . Speaker , could I have the leave of the House to make some committee changes? MR. SPEAKER: Has the member leave? (Agre ed ) The Honourable Member for Logan . MR. JENKINS : Mr . Speaker, I would like to make the following committee chang es : Public Accounts , the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet for the Hon­ ourable Member for St.

Johns ; in Municipal Affairs , the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge for the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet ; on Law Amendment s, the Hon­ ourable Member for Rossmere for the Honourable Member for St . Vital ; the Hon­ ourable Member for St .

Boniface for the Honourable Member for Flin Flon , also on Law Amendments ; on Private Bills, the Honourable Member for Rossmere for the Hon­ ourable Member for Churchill ; on Economic Developm ent , the Honour able Member for Rossmere for the Honourable Member for Flin Flon ; Statutor y Orders and Regula­ tions , the Honourable Member for Flin Flon for the Honourable Memb er for St . Vital. I have a co py here for the Clerk. Thank you , Mr . Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabe Minister of Government Services . HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lake side) : Mr .

Speaker , I move , seconded by the Hon­ ourable th e First Minister , that Mr . Speaker do now le ave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of Ways and Means for raising of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MOTION presented and carried , and the House resolved itself into a Comittee of Way s and Means with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair. - 1759 -

Friday , 28 March 1980 COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats ( Radisson): This Committee of Ways and Means will come to order . Interim Supply .

Resolve that towards making good the supply granted to Her Maj esty , on account of certain expenses of Public Service for the fiscal year ending the 3lst day of March, 198 1 , the sum of $5 68 ,5 87 , 270 ; $568 ,5 87 , 270 being 30 percen t of the total amount to be voted for dep artments as set forth in the Main Estimates for the fiscal year ending the 3lst day of March, 1981 , laid bef ore the House at the present Session of the Legis lature , be granted out of the consolid ated fund . Pass? The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman, this committee de als with the manner in which the funds will be provided , as compared to the commit tee yesterday which dealt with the authority to spend the money . I see the Finance Minister is absen t . I wonder who can tell us how th is sum of ove r half a billi on dollars will be raised . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Gove rnment Services. MR. ENNS: Mr . Chairman , just on a matter of House business , the Chairman of the Treasury Board will be advising the honourable members in this mat ter. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney ): Mr .

Chairman , we have some staff coming so we can provide the answers . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, since the government seems not to be quite ready with th is , I think we can pass it and discuss this question at a later time . If the Minister is not able to respond , I wouldn't press it. I think I know the answer that might come . I wanted to discuss interest rates that the government would have to pay for the money , but it 's not too important . If you want to pass it , you may . MR. RANSOM: Wel l, Mr. Chairman , we would appreciate that .

Being the Acting Minister , I would have to have my staff here in order to be able to commun­ icate the answers to the honourable member , and the staff are on the way . MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution . Pass? Committee rise . Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MR. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker , the Committee of Ways and Means has adopted ce r­ tain Resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. Mr. Speak er , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for Emerson, that Report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR.

RANSOM , by leave , introduced Bill No. 22,

An Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ending the 3ls t Day of March , 1981, and to Auth orize the Commitment of Expenditure of Additional Money in Subsequent Years. GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECOND READING BILL NO . 22 THE INTERIM APPROPRIATION ACT , 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. - 1760 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR• RANSOM , by leave , presented Bill No. 22,

An Act for Granting to Her Majesty Certain Sums of Money for the Public Service of the Province for the Fiscal Year Ending the 3lst day of March , 1981 and to Authorize the Commitment of Expenditure of Additional Money in Subsequent Years , for second reading . MOTION presented . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . Vita l . MR . WALDING : Mr . Speak er , I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for St. Johns that the debate be ad journed . MR . SPEAKER : The Honourable Acting House Lead er. MR. ENNS : Mr .

Speake r, I ju st wonder if, to expe dite the rather cumbersome exch anges that we have to go through here now , whether it would not be appropriate at this time to al low the Minister of Natural Resources to explain , or to intro­ duc e the Bill for second reading , and then it would of course be in order for the Honourable Member for Well ington to do prec isely what he is indicat ing he may wish to do. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St . Vital . MR. WALDING : Mr .

Speak er , I was sitting waiting for the Honourable Min­ ister to give us an expl anation on second reading , and it was when you stood up to pass the mat ter that I rose to move adj ournment . I would willingly withdraw my motion with the approval of the seconder , if the Ministe r wishes to cont inue. MR . SPEAKER : Is it agreed that we allow the Minister of Natural Resources to speak on second reading? The Honourable Member for St . Boniface on a point of order. MR.

DESJARDINS : What we are agreeing , so the First Minister doesn 't make any mistake , is that we revert , not that we withdraw the mot ion, we revert to give the Minister a chanc e, who I guess forgot to speak , but we cer tainly intend to make the same motion . MR. SPEAKER : It is agreed that we revert , then , to the introduction of the Bill for second reading . The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM : Mr . Speaker , I guess it pays to be a little quicker on the feet than the Honourable Member for St . Vital . As will be recognized by most members of the House , Mr .

Speak er , this Bill merely provides for Interim Authority necess ary from the start of the fiscal year of the province, April 1, 1980 , until such time as The Main Appropriation Act is passed by the Legislature . It permits staff in the various de partments to be paid for neces sary expendi­ tures incurred during the period when the House is in session and debating the Est imates of Expenditure .

Without the authority provided by The Interim Appropri­ ation Act , it would be impossible to pay the ongoing costs of education , health and all of the oth er necess ary expense s, including the salaries of the Civil Ser­ vice provided for in the Provincial Estimates of Expend iture . Over the yea rs, an amount has been det ermined , which is the est imated maximum amount that would be spent up unt il such time as the Legislature would normally take to pass The Main Appropriation Ac t.

It will be readily recognized that this is a necess ary and straight-f orward commitment, more of a housekeeping nature than a substantive nature . The authority requested here is for 30 percent of the amount, not including statutory expenditure s, as set out in the Estimates under review. It is anticipated that this will be suffic ient authority to carry on the normal day-to- day operations of the government until such times as official authority for all of the Est imates of Expenditure have been reviewed by this House and passed as legisla tion. - 1761 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 This, of course , is the manner in which all other governments carry out their cont inuing role until the Main Est imates of Supply bec ome legislation. I would hope that this House will provide authority for government to carry out its under­ takings in the normal manner by permitt ing the Bill to proceed through the legis­ lative process without undue delay . Thank you , Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR . HANUSCHAK : I wonder if the Honourable Minister would agree to a ques­ tion? Will he conf irm that payday is two weeks today? MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. RANSOM: No, I bel ieve it is earlier than that , Mr. Speaker. MR. HANUSCH AK : Does the Honourable Minister then indicate that it is a week today? MR. RANSOM : I believe so , Mr . Speaker , but given the long weekend , with Good Friday next Friday , then there is a necess ity to advance by a day , I believe. MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Member for Logan . MR . JENKIN S : Mr. Speak er, I beg to move , seconded by the Honourable Member for St . George, that debate be adj ourned . MOTION presented and carried . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Act ing Government House Lead er . MR . ENNS : Mr . Speak er , I move , seconded by the Honourable the First Minister , that Mr . Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty . MOTION presented and carried , and th e House resol ved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources, and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Fitness , Recreation and Sport .

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - FITNESS , RECREATION AND SPORT MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden) : Call the Committee to order . We were on Resolution 69 , 2. (d) (l) . The Member for Transc ona. MR. PARASIUK : I'd like to ask the Minister where it might be appropriate to ask some questions about the Field House Task Force? Would this be the area of Recreation Resource. It strikes me that there is some grant assi stance involved . I guess it could be • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. ROBERT (B ob ) BANMAN (La Verendrye ): Sure , Mr.

Chairman , there isn't any speci fic plac e for it , so if the member wants to ask it . MR. PARASIUK : Wel l, I'd like to know how that task force review is pro­ gress ing. I gather it 's chaired by a legislative assista nt , and I would assume that the legislative assistant to the task force will be reporting to the Minister. Is that correct? - 1762 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR . BANMA N: We ll, Mr. Chairman , he 's not a legislat ive as sistant , he 's a member of the Legislature . He 's not a legislative assistant to the Minister of Fitness . He will be reporting, hopefully , the committee will be reporting some time in May or June . They are now going to go through the process of having some public hearings . They have met with , I understand , the last time I was talkin g to the membe r, with some 20 different concerned groups , including the Y's, the University of Winnipeg , the Sports Federation and a number of other people .

They now hope to hold a series of public meetings to get public input. MR. PARASIUK : Just to cl arify my thinking on this, what is the purpose of the task force? Is it to just see what the various needs are , or to determine the location of a field house , or what? I really ca n't remember the press releases on it , and I'm wondering if the Minister would refresh my memory on this. MR.

BA NMAN: The terms of reference are rather broad , and would encompass exac tly what the member is saying , the needs with regards to indoor track and field facilit ies, the need for jogging facilities, the needs of the University of Winnipeg . It 's a pretty broad manda te, and we hope that they will be providing us with a report which will indicate to us what the perceived needs and the needs of the community are with regards to that indoor facility , as well as a location that might best serve all the people involved . MR.

PARASIUK: We ll, in this connec tion, I'd like to make some observations that perhaps - or at least will be recorded , and I'l l then pass on to the Minister and he can pass them on to the task force. I think it 's very important that there be a fac ility in the downtown part of Winnipeg , and that it be a fac ility that does take into account community needs , not ju st the needs of the Y's, or the needs of the University, or the needs of the good athletes who are looking for a fac ility which is easily accessible to them by being in the ce ntre .

All of those are , I think , worthy obje ctives , but at the same time , the inner core of the city is the most rundown part of the city and has the worst recreatio nal fa cilities in the city . When you look at some of the major fac ilities that have been built in the city for sports or recre ation, something like the Pan-Am track. It 's at the University of Manitoba . It 's really not that accessible to people . In the down­ town part of Winnipeg if you look at the Pan-Am Pool on Grant Park , again it 's not in the downtown part of Winnipeg .

It 's not acc essible to the inner core residents and yet those were things that were paid for by ratep ayers , generall y . Even if you look at the Re-Fit Centre , again it was not too easily accessible for residents downtown. I guess , just in passing , and I think it 's almost as part of a grievance , is it 's rather strange that these very good public facilities indeed are in areas that are fairly affluent .

I think that 's probably just as a coincidence but I think sometimes we should be a bit more careful in locating these fac ilities so that they are easily accessible to those people who are poorer and have ju st as much need , in fact , probably in some cases greater need for them. I look at the Ys and they 'r e good facil ities but they char ge . They charge probably more than these other fac ilities might charge . And I think that 's unfortunate .

I would hope theref ore that the fac ility that is built - if one is built and I think there 's strong grounds for one being built - be located downtown and be at the ce ntre - so that the various suburbs can use the public transportation facilities which are geared to transporting people from one suburb to the centre but not from one suburb to another suburb of the city , so that people can in fact have access to it and that it 's located in such a manner that people in the down­ town area, the inner core , can in fact walk to that type of fac ility and have just as great a cl aim to it as the elite athletes or the University of Winnipeg student s, or other people .

I th ink that it 's very important to take that consideration into account because I think that these people probably aren 't the most organized ; they aren 't the most art iculate in put ting forward their nee ds; and that 's why I raise this today and hope that the Minister will take that under advisement and pass those concerns on to the Task Force. - 176 3 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for St . Bonifac e. MR. DESJARDINS : Mr. Chairman , I'd like the Minister to give us the permanent reference of this Task Force. I'm somewhat mixed up. I don 't if it 's for mostly rec reation or for fitness or for all these things. Is it a track? Is it a basketball thing? I think that this is important now. I share some of the concern of my friend who ju st spoke but maybe I see it somewhat different ly , depending on what you 'r e trying to do . My main concern , if we 'r e dealing with the University of Winnipeg , is we want to be assured one way or another .

Is it mostly for university student s? We 'v e had ce rtain fac ilities at the University of Manitoba and I remember a few years back that the people around there were not too ple ased because there were very few other people , outside those and their families - those attending the university , I'm not saying this is bad - I think the university should have that . It 's ju st a question of priorizing.

Now, if it 's the university , well then we should know what 's going in there ; what the terms of reference are ; and if it 's for the community it 1 s something els e ; and if it 's the community , will it be run by the university? Of course , the Minister probably can't answer all these questions unt il he gets the report but I'd like to have at least the terms of referen ce. We 're on item Recreation Resources Develop ment , and I know that the Minister , in a spirit of co-opera tion , agrees that there could be some flexibi lity .

That might be bet ter , though , discussed under Sports Develop ment ; I don 't know. If it 's community recreat ion, well then it 's not quite the same thing . And if it 's under Fitness Deve lopment , it 's not quite the same thing . The way I read it , many people fortunate ly think that recreation is only sports and we know that recrea­ tion is not that al l. It could be watching TV ; it could be a library . Recreation is anything that is being done by the people outside of the ir hours of work. In other words, in their leisure time . And there are all kind s of different things .

It could be jogging ; it could be walking ; it could be med itating ; it could be anything . So I don 't know if this is the place that we should discuss this because I don 't know the terms of reference. I'd like to have the terms of referen ce. If it 's for fitne ss, I think this would take a long time and I'd like us to be pioneers in this thing . I would like to see any new hospital , any new construction of any new hospital , instead of having some waste space. If you do it just where you construct the hospital , if there was a tra ck, I think that would be the best thing .

You know, we live in a pretty cold country , cold cl imate , many months of the year , and there 's more and more ••• it 's phenomenal , I think, the progress that Manitoba has made since the last few yea rs. Before that , we were just a nation of watchers . I don 't know if we owe that to the Duke when he came into the ••• and the statement that he 's made. He 's been quite concerned about that , and I think the governments - different governments , I' m not talk ing in a partisan sense - have tried to improve the situation .

And now , no matter what morning , even in cold weather , you see some people even running outside . But I think the fac ilities , we could see how it 's used now , that the Reh-Fit Centre had to freeze th eir membersh ip. They had to freeze that because there were too many people . And you have the Pre-Fit and the Reh-Fit and the Reh-Fit eventua lly get The people on the Reh-Fit Program could get a cl ean sl ate and then they can go back and do it somewhere else .

This is mostly for , you know , you haven 't got all the athletes in that ; it would discourage the guys in my cl ass if you saw all these guys like your Deputy Minister whizzing by . You know , it wouldn 't be too interesting for the guys like me . But , Mr. Cha irman, I think that I'd want to discuss this under Fitness , because I think the government is doing quite well in thi s Recreation Resources Develop­ ment . I think they 'r e progressing .

I don 't see that much difference in what we were trying to do , what we were trying to achieve , and the way they are doing it , but I' ll have something els e to say on Fitness . I think they 'r e going backwards on the question of Fitne ss . I don 't think enough is done , I think they froze too many programs. But I wonder if the Minister , bef ore we discuss that , because unless we agree to take the three event , it 's a mini-Minister's salary , I don 't know , may be we should wait on that. There has been no obstruction in this committee so far. - 1764 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 Maybe we should look at the Recreation Resources Deve lopment line by line and then wait on the Minister 's Salary and then we 'll have a catch-all bunch of questions . But I would like to - I wonder if during that time if somebody , if the Minister hasn 't got the terms of reference here , if somebody could be sent to try and get this term of referen ce , so we could have it . I thought it was only on the question of the University of Winnipeg . Now the Minister said it 's the whole community . Now, does that mean the whole province, or the City of Winnipeg, or what?

You know , it changes things quite a bit. So I certainly don 't want to curtail the other members and if the Minister wants to make comments on what was asked before and then maybe we should - it 's just a suggestion of - try to stick to line by line , with the understanding that we might come back on something that normally might have been covered line bY line , because it 's quite dif ficult . MR . BANMA N: Wel l, I'l l send somebody to try and get a copy of the press rele ase .

Maybe if I could just very brief ly ; what sort of triggered this is last summer Saskatoon hosted the Western Canada Summer Games and they built a fieldhouse for that particular even t. The fieldh ouse was a fac ility which was built by the city , with grants from the provincial government , and was built on land donated by the University of Saskatoon. What happened was that it 's a fairly attractive facility and one which I think was someth ing that we might be interested in.

As the members know, the University of Winnipeg does have some capital proposals to put on the drawing board , I think their main concern right now is a proper basketb all- volleyball team handball fac ility . This was all included in that field house , the one in Saskato on, plus a running track at which athletes could compete on , whether it be the Manitoba High School Athletic Association, whatev er. The fac ility was owned and operated by the City of Saskatoon and I think the member will apprec iate , from St .

Boniface , who wrestled with some of th is, one of the problems that we have had , and I have no magic way of overcoming it and we 'r e working with it, is to try and utilize to a fuller capacity many of the school fac ilities that we have , and we 'v e got some beautiful ones, some of the regional school s, but there seems to still be an aversion in people themselv es , of using a school fac ility versus a public fac ility . I don 't know what it is. There seems to be somewhat of a block to that . So we are concerned about that . But I will get the terms of referen ce. They are quite broad .

They were to look at the needs of the U of W. They were to look at the needs of the amateur athletes involved in track and field sports. They were to look at the needs of the down town area , especially the north side of Portage where we ' re seeing some problems with the business community , trying to create a traffic flow ; and things such as the buses , the bus schedu les and that . The Member for Transcona is quite right . The facility out on Tay lor, for instance , for Reh-Fit does not have any proper bus routes there at all and it becomes very difficult for people to move back and forth.

So the idea is to see if these things can 't all be brought together and accom­ modate as many interest groups within that structure as possible. It 's a pretty onerous task for the committee to go ahead with , but I understand , from talking to the Chairman right now, that they are recei ving a lot of encouragement from many of the different groups that have an interest in this thing . So I' ll get a copy of the press rele ase and maybe , if we want to discuss it on the next item or whenever , it doe sn 't matte r. MR. DESJARDINS : Now that we started on that , I guess we might as well finish that .

I would like to add a bit to what has been said . I might be wrong but I think that we are dreaming if we feel that we could go to the university and take something that will - I shouldn 't say benefit , it will benefit - but that will serve the whole community . I think that 's dreaming ; I think that 's impossible . I think that we need something at the university - I'm all for it.

I'm not trying to change that and I think that it could probably take maybe a small group like a community cl ub around that area , but there is no way that with all the intermural sports , and you 'r e trying to get everybody into the university and you have a big enrolment , that you 'l l have much time , that you could use that - 1765 -

Friday , 28 March , 1980 much time for the community at large . I think that would be wrong. I think that maybe we could be careful and not spent excessive funds for that , get a track for the athl etes and if at all possible , try to get it co-ordinated with the under­ standing that when time permits , that other people will be able to use it . But I think we are kidding ourselves and I think that we're not going to be successful if we try to be too rigid on that and say that the university is only one of them. I think that they have to have the first choic e.

Now, I don't give up too easy and I would like to make a suggestion to the Minister. Maybe it's a dream , but oh , what a dream. I would like to see a facility here run by the Sports Federation for athle tes . You see that in many countries . We are talking about the Olym pics; we are talking about everything and if you are going to have those kind s of athlete s, you need facilities . I think it's all part of the program. You know, when a fel low like Bobby Hull comes here and plays hockey , there is more interest for the kids and so on .

So what I am try ing to say is you need excellen ce ; you need quality to have quantity. I think the main responsibility of the province is not necessarily quality . I think it is important if you can develop good athletes that will compete and maybe bring some medals to Manitoba and then , as Canadian s, bring medals to Canada . I think it is important but I wouldn't say it is th e first priority of the prov­ incial government.

I think that they have to foster that and promote that , but I think that the first priority of a provincial gove rnment is to make sure that every single Manitoban has a chance to participate and is encouraged to part­ icipate and has the tools , the means and fac ilities and the know-how to participat e. Now, as I say , I hesit ate to say that and many people will probably think it's a dream , but I think it is realisti c . I always forget the name of - is it Lipsett Hall at the end of Grant - you know, that was constructed - there's Osborne , there's many places for the Armed Services.

They get the best , and they're not used that much. I think you can't do it alone but I would ce rtainly be ready to accompany the Minister and as a group , a non-partisan group , to try to knock on the door of Otta wa , who maybe are looking to do something for the west , to turn that over , not to the province and the province would probably have to do its share and maybe commit itself to a few mil lion dollars , but to try to have a fac ility such as that where you have soccer pitches - there's enough acreage out ·the re that you can do quite a few th ings.

There is a swimming pool; there is a gym ; there is a curling rink ; there's an outdoor track and you can probably have an indoor track . There's all kinds of facilities . I'd like to see the Sports Federation run this kind of complex and that , in effe ct , would serve to train the better athletes and als o to have direct ion that would radiate all over the place, and then you have to coordinate everything . And this is why I mentioned the other night how important an inter-departmental committee would be ; and I think the Minister is missing a bet if he does't pursue that .

I don't think that he could do it alone . I doubt his word , he says , that the public are not too anxious to go to the school , they have been discouraged for so long . You've had principals of schools - I'll always remember, one place up north when I had that responsibility , I wanted to know whether they wanted a gym, a small place, and I said well you've got a fantastic gym in your school . Oh , yes , but at 3:3 0 we've got to cl ose the door , there's white tiles there and the principal doesn't want us to dirty th eir tile.

We ll, this is ridiculous and assinine and the government has to take the lead in that and we have to open the schoo ls. It is the same type of people and it is a made-to-order thing because those schools are situated in an area ; you try to get the school cl ose to the populat ion and as many schools as are needed .

And what a way , instead of just dupl ication , I could even see the schools , if we had a plan that even the community cl ubs would disappear and the community cl ubs would be in the school , espec ially in the city ; I guess in the rural area it doesn't matter that much because there's more land , but in the city, with the price of land it would be made-to-order if you planned - maybe it's a long-range thing but if you planned the schools and if certain areas could be cl osed off. It's the same people paying the same taxes and you would have the facilities .

The hockey rink, at 4:3 0 or 3:3 0 the schools are over anyway . In the summer holidays and during the winter break and so on these places are cl osed ; so you would have - 1766 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 the fac ilities , you would use the same land , you would have the same traffic restrictions 'and so on , instead of duplicating that. And I can conceive that anybody , a group of people , for some reason or other could say , no , you can 't use this gym. It think that is to be encouraged and there is only one way to go with this recreation ; and there is more . And this is very important you know some people , and there 's not too many members present here who might think that this is a minor portfolio or it is not an important portfolio ; and I disagree with that very much.

What are we looking at? We are looking at a better lif estyle of the people of our province and our country ; and I think this is a very important department but I think they 'v e got a challen ge . It is something fairly new ; the governments weren 't partic ipating in this bef ore ; I think it 's extemely important . You know, what are we doing; what are we doing in the econ omy and so on? We go and try to make a living , for what? To make a better life for our families and ourselve s. And what does this de partment de al with? This de partment deals with what you do in your leisure time .

And I think that 's the name of the game and I think more has to be done . Not necessarily just spend money , of course , you have to spend money , but that 's not the only thing .

And if the Minister wants to try maybe we could , together with some other members , look at the situation and maybe approach the federal government and see if we can have ••• you know , that 's ju st a thought but a facility like that where you could house the Sports Federation where you could train better athletes and where you can have somebody from your departm ent , your fitness group, out there working from the re , radiating all across the city . And you have to work, also , with the YMCA , YMHA.

I think that they 'r e quite concern ed with these new facilities, they think they 'r e going to lose some customers . I don 't agree with my friend here that they are charging that much. I think it is pretty reasonable and I don 't think that we want to duplica te anything like that . I think if you go to Reh-Fit it costs you more . Now, even tually there will be more money coming from the government but I think that this is one of the things we can do . There is no limit to what we can do ; you can use the schools ; you can use the hospitals ; but you'v e got to plan.

Why is it that a hospital is there just to go and see somebody die. I'm exaggerating to make a point ; but more and more , we were talkin g about this Doctor and I don 't know what the doctor did wrong but I think in th is concept of trying to keep people happy is certainly a worthwhile endeavour , a worthwhile proje ct. And I think that this department should be doing that . It 's not just fun and games . If you can have fun and games doing it , and I think that you can , so much the bette r.

So , you know, if there was a fac ility like that , and that doesn 't mean that there 's no need for a fac ility for the University . Other cities have private enterp rise in the system. In Toronto , there are fac ilities that have private enterprise ; in Edmonton they have a fanta stic track that was built with grants from the province, but I think it 's run by the City . It 's turned over through the City of Edmonton, the same as Saskat oon . But I don't know if any of those at the University . The University , le t's keep those fac ilities going at all times.

Okay , if you have it at the University , the University students need something like that but make sure that the place is not cl osed and the place is not hal f empty . So , we ' 11 get back on that , I' m sure , but I wanted to express my concern on this and als o show that I think that the Minister has an important respon­ sibility . I, for one , do not consider this as a minor portfolio , as an unimpor­ tant portfolio . I think it is one of the most important things , because what 's the use of trying to make a living and all that if you 'r e not changing their life­ style .

That 's the most important thing of al l. You know , I •ve met people who were talkin g that they were tired of the rat race, they were going 18 hours a day . And you ask them , "W ell , why are you doing it?" "W ell , he says , "I 'm doing that so I can give my child the same benefit that I had when I was young and poor." In the old days , where you could see a bit of nature and now, with this rat race and all, that makes it difficult . MR . CHAIRMAN : (2) . The Member for Transcona . - 1767 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. PARASIUK: Yes , I ju st want to cl arify a statement I made with respect to the Ys . I wasn 't saying that they are too expensive for large chunks of the population , I think many people can , in fact , affor d them and I think they are fairly heavily used . The groups that I'm concerned about are , in a sense , the kids of Main Street and the kids of Portage Avenue . At night , there are a lot of kids on the street . On Portage , I think people , in a sense , complain about the kids on Portage Avenue or they ' re complaining about the kids on Main Street .

These kids are 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 years old . It strikes me that they don't have very much in the way of rec reation ; and I think it 's quite important for them to have some role models and that 's why , if you can tie in that recreational thrust with some other facility and some other acti vities , and I know it can be des igned architectur ally . I'm ju st , you know, I think the ch alle nge is probably more to de sign it in a programmatic and administrative sense , but a lot of these chi ldren don't have very many role models. Their role models are the street role mode ls.

They see the tough guy in the beer parlor and the tough guy just coming out of the beer parlor, and that tends to be their role mode ls. When are they going to come in contact with some other people , not just at one banquet per year but on a more continuing basis. I would hope that is the dimension that might be taken into acc ount , because I think the income leve ls of families in the inner city is changing . I think we have a very high percentage of single parents in the inner family .

We probably have large families ; we have situations where probably parents won 't, or in many instances, ca n't spend that much time with their chi ldren . I think we have to concentrate our efforts to try to do something for that particular group in soc iety , which I think is growing, and growing very very visibly over the last 10 yea rs. And it 's just not a matter of sort of complaining about them as del inquents , you know, the kids of Main Street are deli nquents or the kids of Portage are delinquent and they 'r e harassing the passersby and shoppers , and the shopkeepers are mad about that .

I think that all we ' re talking about is the symptom then , and I think we have to start talking about the causes and try and do something in this area to try and deal with the cause . I think that the cause is that these children don't have that much to do ; they don't have anything that interests them ; they don't have too much in the way of role model ; and I think that is going to be one of our big challenges as a city and as a province. I jus t wouldn 't like to see that dimension overlooked , and I don't think that this is that type of phenomenon that the wise can deal with that effect ively .

I think that it 's probably beyond they scope , they may be part of a process and I' m hoping that maybe the Field House Task Force , in meeting a number of these different groups , and through the process of public hearings will, in fact , keep this dimension in line and possibly come up with some solutions to it . MR. CHAI RMAN: 2.( d) (l )-- pass; 2. (d) (2)- -pass ; 2. (d) (3) --pas s. The Member for St . Boniface. MR. DESJARDI NS:

(3) I think I know what these grants are ; I think the Minister has made some , but there is also a mix-up with the lottery money . can he tell us what the $236 ,0 00 and can he break that down ple ase? MR. BANMAN: program •• This does not involve any lotte ries ' money , this is the MR. DESJARDINS: No , not th is, but I say •• MR. BANMAN: This is the program dealing with the District Recreation Directors Program, where two municipalities can get together with the school board and then receive a grant up to $10 ,0 00 to hire a full-time recreation direct or.

This year we budgeted for 26 districts, last year there were 18, so we 'v e had as I mentioned • • • MR. DESJARDI NS: It 's the same program that 's improving all the time , that we have for a number of year s. MR. BANMAN: That 's right . - 1768 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR . DESJARDINS : Okay . MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.( d) (3) --pass ; 2. (e) (l )- -pass . The Member for St . Bonifac e. MR. DESJARDINS : We ll , Mr. Chairman , in Fitness Develo pment , I can 't be as kind to the Minister as I' ve been so far on the other side , because I don 't think there 's too much being in that. I think we 'r e going backwards and I ca n't help but fee l that maybe the Minister doesn 't really understand that responsibility , or maybe he 's taking the easy way out and ju st giving the bulk of the money to maybe different sports organizations , sports groups and that 's good .

But you can 't do it all , there 's ce rtain things that are less glamorous and that 's the role of the government to make sure that they can do something in that. I see a very few pro grams in Fitness ; I think that in Fitness , the Minister is talking about the Sports Injury Centre . That was one of them and - if you 'll bear with me a minute , I think I'v e got four - there 's the Fitness Instructors Courses, that 's an old program that 's going on ; and the education in pamphlets and posters but there 's less money spent now than there was previously in this area . I ca n't see of any other programs .

We had some good programs . I think that I was very proud of what we were trying to do a couple of years ago and we announced quite complete programs and those were frozen by the previous Minister , and there 's no sign that this will start again . Now, I might say that I was glad that the Minister gave me some information , and even some of the informat ion that he hasn 't read , I think , and I don't want to be hard on him but he had no idea of what the Advisory Council on Fitness and Amateur Sport is, and it 's right in your organizational chart . It 's there and it doesn 't exist .

According to the Minister , he 's not certainly not making use of it , if it exists or not ; and I don't want to be tacky on this and I asked him to check . That was for his own use , but I think he 's missing a bet . I think if he would have had that committee he wouldn't have needed th is. You know , it 's okay , maybe politically it looks good , your naming a commission of three and so on ; an MLA at that . Maybe to keep them happy , I don 't know but I think there 's better ways af doing those things .

I don 't dare look at the Minister ; I don't want to put him on the spot , but I think that an Advi sory Council , when you have those kind of people , I think that they can do a much better job. And it 's a pity because that committee was very good . And I am going to take the time of the committee to read some of the things that were announced and that have been done and as a former Minister I' m not taking credit for that , I'm taking credit only for being smart enough to know my limitation in getting people around me that could do the work and that come in with good recommendat ions.

And I• d like to refer the Minister to 1977 , to some of the things that were done , and I'l l mention some of the programs . I think that in fitness alone , in fitness and lifestyl e, there were quite a few programs . There was the Partic i Community project and I'd like , for the indication of the committee , give you an idea of what this was all about . It was aimed at getting community groups , organ­ izations , institutions , and individuals of a community to work together on a comprehensive campaign to stimulate positive health habits and encourage citizens to take

part in regular physical activities of their choice. The project would be modelled on Participaction-like projects in Kitchener , Wat erloo , Peterborough and Saskato on. Interested communities could apply to become models for fitness and lifes tyle devel opment . For funds to be al lott ed , the community would have to indicate will ingness to contribute funds and services itsel f. Volunteer help would be emphasized . And then there were provincial fitness recognition schem es.

And there was the Manitoba Marat hon, the sports special ••• well , the fitness incentive grant pro­ grams ; I think that is still in existen ce. And fitness instruction training and certi fication program. I think the amount of money , if I can find that , was in excess of $200 • • • No , that was , we ll, there was a quarter of a million doll ars for the Reh-Fit that couldn 't be frozen ; they were too well advan ced , and I am certainly ple ased with that . The same as some of the personal care homes , but we will discuss that later on . And there was , I think that advice ••• MR.

BANMAN: Not in my Est imates though ; not in my Est imates . - 1769 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. DESJARDINS: No , you 'r e too nice a guy . You know, we had about $140 ,0 0Q.O O . There was money from the Lotteries and there was money from the government 's share of the Lotteries going in that. And I think the government is backing down . I don 't blame the Minister , only if he 's too soft in Cabinet . I think that they 'r e talking about this period of re straint , and I think it was a joke when you got the Sports Federation in and that you said that now sports will be better served than ever. I want to explain.

Not that that the Sports Federation was a partner , beca use that was meant to be from Day One until they came to their senses and had to realize that their lottery wasn't going to achieve what they were doing and they were left out because of their own reasons , and I'm not going to go into that again. But , Mr .

Chairman , I think that there are ce rtain things in your Est imates; you know, it 's okay to say , we ll it 's vague , there 's money here and there 's money there , the Lotte ries , we don't know how long this is going to exist and the indications are that the Minister and the government are going to follow the same policy or the same programs we are on Lotte ries , that eventu ally , all the revenue will go outside of government . I would hope that this is going to be done . This was done . We started the first step in my days and this was announced publicly .

I heard the Minister speaking on this resolution that we have in the House and I think that eventu ally , instead of having taxes , and no doubt - I' m not going to try to play games - no doubt if that is done , if you surrender a source of revenue , they will have to accept ce rtain responsibilities. But in your Estimates here , Mr . Minister , there are certain things that must be protected , that must be there ; in other words, that are needed and that will not ch ange or be volatile , as a revenue . The Lotteries might be.

You know, you can give more money to each sport , to develop sports and fac il­ ities and the Administration Centre and so on , okay , that 's good , but there are certain things that we should do now . Nowhere do I see anything about games. I'd like to know about game s. We had the Brandon Games. Again , that was too far down the pike . The present dep artment had nothing to do with it except maybe pay the bills that were committe d; and there was quite a bit of money on that , and then the Minister in Manitoba accep ted an invitation to go to the We stern Games , which was set in another province .

I haven 't heard . I ca n't comment on that until the Minister tells me what is the future of those games . You know, there is no doubt that the games were not the most popular when they started because these sports groups wanted more and more money themselves to develop their own players . But we felt , and I st ill feel , that this is the responsibil ity of the government to see that there is mass participation . There was nothing but praises for those games and they were difficult , starting with the Northern Game s that we had at one time .

Then we went to Neepa wa for the first summer games , Manitoba Summer Games , and Dauphin had games. I'd like to know what is going on the re . Maybe before I discuss this any further , could the Minister tell us. I'd like him to elaborate on , well, all the games , what is done for athletes who might compete , who might try for the Olympic teams , and then the Canada Games team - that 's develop ment of athlet es , that 's something else - but then , our own games in Western Canad a. Has Manitoba invited the other provinces?

I think it 's about our time to do it and I could unders tand that you don't want to have Manitoba Games the year of Canada Games, for instanc e, or the year of the Western Canada Game s, but what is the future of those games here in Manitob a, Mr . Chairman , through you to the Minister? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BANMAN : We ll , first of al l, maybe I can deal with the items one at a time . The We stern Canada Games , which were held in Saskatoon last year and were hosted by the Province of Saskatche wan ••• MR. DESJARDINS : For the second time , right? MR. BANMAN: Right.

The first year it was in Regina , the second year in Saskatoon . It was agreed by the Ministers and ratified by my colle agues that Alberta is planning to host the next games , B.C. wants to take them after that and by the year 1991 , I believe , it 's Manitoba 's turn . So there is a

schedule that - 1770 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 has been laid down and we had to determine whether or not we would continue with those game s and , if we were to continue , we wanted to lay down a sched ul e. So Manitoba will be hosting ••• MR . DESJARDI NS: Excuse me , did I hear the Minister say that every year they will be in Western Canada ••• ? MR. BANMAN: No , every four years . MR . DESJARDINS: What year did you say Manitoba ••• ? MR . BANMAN: 1991. MR. DESJARDINS: 19 91, oh . MR. BANMAN: So it 's down the track but we have committed ourselves to that type of a game .

With regard to the preparation of athlet es , we do provide certain funds, as has been provided over the last little while , for the training of athletes to go to the games , provide them with certain uniforms and that type of thing . The Man-Plan Program, which has been around for three or four years , will receive out of the Lotteries funds again , $100 , OOO to provide our athletes in each sports discipline that the sports governing body decid es. • • MR.

DESJARDINS: Excuse me , to make it ea sier, if the Minister doesn 't mind if I interrupt him, the Man-Pl an , is that financed strictly by the province or is that a cost-sh are with the Sports Federat ion, and who administers it? Is it strictly the province now? MR. BANMAN: No, it 's the Province of Manitoba and a rough figure is about $100 ,0 00 on that .

With regard to the Manitoba Games or the Regional Games, we have earmarked something , I belie ve , in the neighbourhood of $175, 000 and are right now talking to the different regional recreation councils to see the type of format that we want to undertake with regard to the Regional Game s. I hope to have something on that within the next few months to see if we want to culminate the Regional Games in a Manitoba Games set-up , the way it has been done pre­ viously , or if we will stick to the regional concept .

And as I mentioned , I hope , over the next while , to have that resolved after talkin g to the people in NorMan and in EastMan and all the other different regions. There are some regional counc ils that are becoming very active . We 'v e got on in We stMan and some of the other areas , who are doing a good job to liaise with the de partment and we will be working with them. MR. CHAI RMAN: The Membe r for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr . Chairman, I wanted to ask the Minister a question or two and then possibly make a statement .

Could he outline what the provincial government 's involvement is in the pre­ paration and training and develop ment of Olympic athletes? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR . BANMAN: Mr . Chairman , it 's all provincial governments ' fe eling , and I think this goes back in Manitoba for many years , that the training of Olympic elite athletes is the responsibility of the federal government . We 'v e had certain sort of delin eations in which we say that if somebody is of Olympic capa bil ities , that Sports Canada has certain responsibilities with regard to that.

As the member will apprec iate , the jurisdict ional matter with regard to sports is something I think that 's been fought with by recreation and sports Ministers through the last 10 years . It 's a field of importance that touches so many people , as the Member for St . Boniface indicated before . But there has to be del ineation of authority and we feel that if the feder al government has a role to play within the field of amateur - 1771 -

Friday , 28 March , 1980 sport , it is one in making sure that our Olympic athletes are looked after properly ; and they do , I know , right now the national athletes in Manitoba do receive , under a program very much like our Man-Plan Program, receive cer tain travelli ng costs and cer tain financial assistance from the federal government with regard to that . For instance, like Monica Gorman , Martin Riley , Sylvia Burka , these are people of a world calibre cl ass that receive help from the federal government . MR.

DOERN: Wel l, do any Olympic calibre athletes have they in the last few years - I mean I speak in terms of th is administration - have they received any grants or al lowances from the province, because I recall raising a year ago , the suggestion that some sort of supplementary program to the federal program be instituted .

For example , I recall that we had a shotputter named Bruce Pirney - I don 't know if Bruce is still in town or not - but he was of Olympic calibre , although he would never finish in the top six , and I think one of his problems along with other people who were able to make the stand ard s of entry , was the fact that they , say , could not get time off work , or if they took time off work it would be at their own expense , so you get into kind of a chicken and an egg situation .

It 's all very we ll to as sume - le t's say an athlete should train after hours but we all know that many of the world 's finest are full-time athletes and that Canadians who are going to prepare for the Olympics have a handicap if they , say, cannot get time off work , sometimes to compete internationally , sometimes to prepare for international competition. Right now it 's the end of March, 28th , and the Olympics are , I gue ss, in July and August in Moscow and the • • • A MEMBER: I doubt that , but A MEMBER: She won 't go . MR. DOERN: Well , Mr.

Chairman, there 's no ques tion that the Olympics will be held and in my judgment there will be a Canad ian team and there may even be an American team present , in one for or anothe r. But most of the nations of the world will be there . I' m just asking whether the Manitoba athlet es, some of whom I as sume will be th ere , are being given time off or special consider ation by the provincial govern­ ment in a supplementary way .

I mean , I might als o ask the Minister, whether any provincial governments have programs that complement or supplement the federal program or is he , in ef fect, leaving it up to the Feds or is he washing his hands of the Manitoba ath letes who are of sufficient calibr e. MR. BANMAN: On the contrary , Mr . Chairman . The gentl eman that the member refers to did receive Game Plan Assistance from the federal government , which I might add , does provide some funds for people who lose time at work while competing at different international events.

That particular individual did receive some money from Man-Plan last year , which is the Manitoba equivalent to the Canadian Game Plan Program, so he did receive some ass istance. I also under stand that he did some technical coaching work for the sports out at the Sports Admin Cent re , so that he was involved and he did receive some assistance from the provincial government . I under stand that as far as the Olympic competition this year , I know of one that 's going from Manitob a, one or two - one is Monica Gorman and maybe Russ Pryor.

So we have a few and we , as I mentioned , have set aside ce rtain funds which are for that purpose . Now, I' m not talking about giving somebody $15 , 000 or $20 ,0 00 , we haven 't got that kind of money . But there is some small assistance that 's provided to these individual s. MR. DOERN: And what are the conditions under which a person can obtain assistance and again , what kind of assistance is it? - 1772 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 If a Bruce Pirney came to you today and said that he was hoping to make the Olympic team and he wanted six months off work , off a teaching position or he wanted three months training , or he wanted to go to New York to compete , or to London , England to compete in an international competition, are there funds available to him? MR. BANMAN: We ll , Mr .

Chairman, if the person is that kind of a cal ibre , a world athlete calibre , the Canadian Olympic Association , the Game Plan that I referred to as well as the Canadian Track and Field Association , I know would do everything in their power to try and provide funds for that particular athlete to do that . We , under the Man-Plan system , ask the different sports governing bodies to forward to us names . The people in that particular sport can apply to their group .

The athlete usually is the one that is just be low the international cl ass that the ones that the federal government does not take and should usually be ranked in the top 10 in Cana da , so that we do have a criteria for them to draw down on these funds. MR. DOERN : Mr . Chairman, I then gather that the Minister and the Manitoba Government intends to support, in whatever way they can , the sending of an Olympic contingent to the 1980 Olympics and any Manitoba athletes who qualify in that regard . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS : Mr .

Chairman , I'm sure the Minister didn 't hear that last comment and I certainly would like a comment from the Minister because it 's on the record now and if the Minister doe sn 't comment or deny or confirm, it 's going to be on the record that Manitoba is encouraging the people , come what may , to go to the Olympic s. I would hope that we are going to do what the other provinces will. I don 't think we could take the lead on that , but the Minister might have a suggestion or a recommendation to make.

But I hope the heck that it is not going to be lef t to the provinces to say if there is going to be a team from Canada at the Olympics in Moscow. MR. BANMA N: Mr . Chairman, I appreciate the Member for St . Bonifce bringing that up . I wouldn't want to leave that on the record at all . It has been est ablis hed that the world and international class athletes and the preparation for the Olympics is the responsibility of the federal government and the prov­ inces , in dealin g with this, would not want to , on an individual bas is, start sending athletes all over the world .

I would just like to say , on that particular issue of the Olympic boycott , I think that Canada 's position is going to rely very heavily on what Europe and what the United States does. I would not want to bury my head in the sand here today and say that we 'r e going regard less , because I think if the United State s, England , Germany and France and all these people don 't go , we won't be going either.

I understand , from listening to some news cl ips the other day , that the Federal Minister in charge of Sport , Gerry Regan , has indicated that the federal govern­ ment will be making a decision with regard to that in the next month and hopefully we can come up with another world compet ition . Unfortunate ly , we all know that the athletes that have been training for thi s very often reach their peak only once in their lifetime and if they miss that one particular competition they never have that opportunity again.

But on the other hand , it has to be realistically under stood , too , that one of the biggest propoganda machines that the Russians have created in the last number of years is their so-cal led , and I call it so-calle d , "amateur" athletes that they send to - whether it be hockey teams or whatever . It is ludicrous for us to think that they are sending amateur hockey teams over here if they can be paid through the army or somewhere else . But these people are pros as far as I am concerned and they are using it as propoganda for furthering their particular political cause . - 1773 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 I think that the federal government has that decisio n to make . I won't second-guess them but I think that it is going to be very dif ficult. But for the sake of the athlet es , I hope the dec ision is made shortly so that they are not lef t hanging in mid-air on this thing . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , this is a very interesting topic and I assume , I think correctly , from listening to the Minister and from public pronouncements or the absence of public pronouncement s, that the provincial government is not opposed to the sending of a team.

I point that out in contrast to his federal counterparts in the late great Clark government that took a stand against the Olympic s, which I think was pretty shabby in this particular regard , that there was an election campaign on . Prime Minister Clark at the time , not only , first of all , took a position of support of an American position but he bega n to , in my judgment , ratt le the sabre and , along with Flora MacDona ld , there was an impres­ sion created that not only was Canada going to boycott the Olympics but probably going to invade the Soviet Union.

All we saw during the election time at one point was ads about re-arming Canada and build ing up our de fenc es and all sorts of other outrageous, impassioned and irrational responses. I would say to the Minist er , as someone who is first and foremost a track and field athlete in the past sense and as one who has been involved in this sport all my lif e, that I think it would be an egregious error to not attend the Olympic s.

And all this talk about boycott , I think , is really incorrectly based on the assumpt ion, I gue ss , that somehow or other the events of Afghanistan are directly related to the Olym pics . We ll, of course , if that's true , then it was also true that the events in Vietnam were related to the Olym pics in the 1960 s . There was a Games in 1960 which I attended in Rome; there was a Games in 1964 in Tokyo ; and in 1968 , Mexico City . Nobody at that time proposed a boycott of the Olympics because of the American intervention in Vietnam.

I say that once you start that process , once you start making the Olympics into a political footbal l, you will destroy the Olym pics. You may do other things . You may put pressure on certain countries. You may complicate international affa irs. But in terms of the Olympic games, which were esta blis hed , I gues s, in the 1890s or so - maybe first held in the 1890s or 1904 , I can 't remember - but what you do in effect is demol ish and destroy a vehic le of international under­ stand ing.

I can tell you that in the mid-1950s I was a member of the Canadian Olympic Training Plan ; that there was such a thing where they took promising young athletes and trained them , not necessarily because they would make the Olympic s, but because they had the potenti al . I have atten ded three Olym pics. I was at the Olymp ics in 196 0 ; I was at them in 1972 in Munich ; I was at them in 1976 in Montrea l. I wouldn't mind going this year but I don't have the $2 ,0 00 .0 0.

I intend to go in four years to Los Angel es , which is -- (Interj ection )- - Wel l, Los Angeles is not that expensive and I have a lot of relatives there. So I'm saying , Mr. Chairman , as it was said in 1972, and you might remember 1972 at the Munich Olym pics, which was really one of the best ever he ld , the dark insertion of Arab-Israeli conflict came into that Olym pics , almost de stroyed the Olym pics. It caused , first of all , a postponement of a day and there was als o a feeling on the part of some people that the Olymp ics should have been stopped right then and there .

It was als o as a result of that that I think the first heaV Y searches went in terms of international trave llers . It was the first time that they began to hand-check and search and frisk people and check luggage and from then on until the present time we have security checks at airports. Avery Brundage at that time was quoted as saying , "We cannot allow a handful of terrorists to de stroy the nucleus of international co-operation and goodwill.

The Games must go on." So I just think that this who le business is really a question of a reaction to , you know, a conflict in Afghanistan and I suppose one could tie anything to that confl ict . I think there are ways and means of deal ing with the Russians in Afghanistan . They are diplomat ic and economic and I believe that it is an incred­ ible error on the part of cer tain politicians to promote the de struction of the Olympic Games. I give you a reference made on this subject from Macleans where - 1774 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 somebody made an interest ing comment, Charlie Fisher - I don 't know if he is familiar to you but he was a coach of the Canadian National Swimming Team - and he said certainly the athletes are a minority , a very small one , but if we boycott the Games their individual sac rifices will be enormous. He said if the Canadian people were told that their cars were needed as ambulances in Afghanistan I would like to see how many lined up to hand in their keys. So I am simply saying , Mr . Chairman , that the Games should go on .

And I suppose it could be argued and I suppose a case could be made that the Russians are trying to score propaganda points with the Olympic s. I don 't think that 's surprising , because I know very well that in 1964 the Japanese sure tried to score propoganda points in Tokyo and nobody complained. They tried to put their best foot forward.

The Mexicans in 1968 tried that ; the Germans sure tried in 1972 ; and there is no question that Canad a, which had the games in 1976 , tried to show to the world - I mean , my God , we spent billi ons of dollars , blew billi ons of dollars , I might say , on some of Mayor Drapeau ' s schemes and dreams -- (Interjec tion)- - Yes , got re-elected and will get re-elected another 25 years . -- (Interje ction)- - I might remind the honourable member that I am much younger than he is, and he is younger than Mayor Drapeau as we ll.

So I simply point out - now he has broken my train of thought - I simply point out that it is hardly surprising that a nation, any nation that hosts the Olympic Games and puts a great deal of money into it, would try to maximize that for public ity. That should come as a surprise to no one . So I think it is redundant to even say that . But if there is dickering now with the Summer Olym pics then it may destr oy the whole Olympic movement and it will ce rtainly , I suppose , destr oy the Olym pics in Los Ange les in 19 84.

I watched with some interest , along with a lot of other people , as to whether the Russians would send their team to Lake Plac id. I think that was an intere sting point , the Winter Olympics and the Summer Olympic s. They did , and we 'l l see what happens. But all this talk about holding other games and substitute games, I mean , is pretty feeb le . The Minister said that often for an athlete it 's once for a life­ time , because if you miss you 'r e talkin g about eight yea rs. You 'r e talking about four years on either side , so if you miss a Games, chances are you may never compete aga in.

It is unusual for athletes to compete in two and three Olympic s. They do ; there are people who have competed in a number of Olympics and won medal s, but most people it is once and if you can make it in two Olym pics teams , then you know you are beginning to get into the rarefied atmosphe re .

This talk of substitute games , I mean I have an art icle here from 10 days ago in the Free Press about a meeting in Switzerland to discuss alt ernative games and the meet ing was organized • Here are the people who were at the meeting : Britain, Australia and the United Sta tes ; The Sudan - they 'r e not known for their Olympic contingen ts ; Saudi Arabia ; the Netherlan ds ; Kenya ; the Dominican Republic ; Philipines; Portugal ; Costa Rica ; and Canada sent observ ers . So when you take that group togeth er, the big group is Britain , Australia and the United States ; that 's a big group.

The other nations are smaller and , in terms of the Olympic s, they tend to be inconsequential and the Canad ian government did not participat e, but sent an observer. So, I'm simply saying that I think that the people who have taken this step are really doing a disservice, first of all , to international sport and , second ly , to internat ional co-operation, because there are not very many vehicles that we have where people can communicate and get togeth er , as opposed to fight each oth er.

The United Nations is one such organizat ion; the Olympic movement is another and if we start demolishing these things , wel l, it will be all very well and we can all get very tough and we can re-arm and ult imately we can fight each other and see who's the stronge st . But I think it 's a mistake and I think that the Canadian government should send a team and I think that the provincial government should do whatever it can to support the Manitoba cont ingent on that team. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St . Bonifac e. MR. DESJARDI NS: Well, Mr. Chairman, that was quite interest ing.

But I' m afraid that I have to disagree on many points with my coll eague and maybe I find myself more in sympathy with the att itude of the Minister, who - and I certainly - 1775 -

Friday , 28 Marc h, 1980 don't want to decide with the hawks or the dove - the member has covered a lot of points, but I resent the fact that the last member who spoke made it appear just black and white. It 's not that simple . And the thing that he kept repeat ing that bothers me is that the governments and the politicians , and so on , would be res­ ponsible for de stroying the Olympic s. If the concept of the Olympic is destroyed it 's going to be destr oyed by the Olympic Association themselves. I don't think it 's the government .

The member certainly will be much more popular with the sports edit ors in this province and other places , but I think that you have to realize when the govern­ ment and the same member repeatedly wanted the governments to do more - and when you say the government s, this is not a magic name , it 's with funds from the tax­ payers - and I think they have a responsibility . The Olympic Association , I think, has gone so far from the original conce pt and it isn't black and white. There is more politics, I think , within the Olympic Association than you 'll find in the House , even on the worst days. MR.

DOERN: What kind of politics? MR. DESJARDINS : Internal politics with the diff erent groups , the different countr ies, looking at the judging , for instance. If you look at certain judges in the figure skat ing, if they 'v e got a chanc e and they 'v e got somebody from their country , they 'r e going to mark the opposition very low, which is ridiculous. And the rules of the games , what are they? It used to be that an amateur could not even compete with professionals.

Anybody in his right sense knows that there is a different lifestyle in diff erent count ries, countries behind the Iron Curtain and countries around here , and the concept of the Olymp ics was for fun and game and compet ition and fitness, and so on , and you ca n't tell me there 's fitness when different countries encourage the drugging of some athlet es , or diff erent hormones , and so on , to develop the diff erent ath letes by the age of 14 and after that they 'r e on their way down. It 's not cut and dried , Mr . Chairman , and then who has to ba il thes e count ries out? Who had to ba il out Montreal?

Who had to come to the help of Munich? But the governments and theref ore the taxpayers in these provinces. So I think it is a disservice to paint the politic ians all bla ck, even Joe Who - God , he has enough problem without bla ming him for everything - and then to make the athl etes • • • Not the athle tes , I'm not fault ing the athletes at all but the Association and the count ries, and so on, to paint them all white ; everything is fine. You know there 's a lot of other people in different fields that don't get this he lp.

I haven 't got the answer , and I'd like to know what is being done but there is no doubt that if it 's going to have an impact on it , fine , somebody wi ll have to make sacrifices , not if there 's only one country , and so on . MR. DOERN: So you don't want any government aid for MR. DESJARDINS : I didn't say that ; I didn 't say that at all . But you ca n't have it only one way .

If the government is responsible to train athletes or to develop athletes - and this is what the member said - and if they 'r e supposed to pick up the bills and the pieces for diff erent cities, different provinces or different countries, I think it 's wrong to say that they have no business in stick ing their nose in that . There is no doubt , I would much prefer the Olympic s, sure , as a spectator of sports, it 's terrific . But there 's lots that wrong in that . For instance, they had Formosa for years , what did they do?

When Red China never wanted to part­ icipate, when they started participating they threw a country out . If that 's not politics , what is it? MR. DOERN: What would you have done? MR. DESJARDINS : I would have said to China , "If you want to come , fine, but we 'r e not going to throw this country out" . And I think that we should do •• - 1776 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 MR. DOERN: You would have banned them then •• MR. DESJARDINS: I wouldn 't have banned anybody . MR. CHAIRMAN: One member at a time . MR. DESJARDI NS: I wouldn 't have banned anybody . But I wouldn 't choose and kick somebody that faithfully came in for years and on what grounds were they banned , if it wasn 't political? Did they break any other rules? MR. DOERN: But you would have banned the country MR. DESJARDI NS: I did not say that and I would hope that the member will not put words in my mouth . If he wants to say that , fine , but he cannot say that I said it .

I would have said if a country who did not want to participate and then changed their mind or something - and this is their prerogative if they want to come in - but at the price of excludin g somebody else , is that the spirit of the Olym pics? And , Mr . Chairman, there is no doubt , like the Minister said , that those communist countries , in most of them , these people are all professional. That 's all they do. Take the Russion hockey teams and they 'r e professional s. I als o atte nded the Olympic s.

I atte nded the Winter Olympics in Grenoble in 1968 , where we had the last - until this year - the last Canadian hockey team and they they were supposed to be able to play with the Russians and take some pros who had been reinstated amate ur , and after that was al lowed at the last minute because the Russians made a lot of noise, we had to say , "No, you can't have it", and then throw the Canadian team out .

I would hope that you start by looking in your own backyard - I'm talkin g about the Olympic Association - and I think they have to be tough ; I think that there 's too much money spent to start with ; and I think there 's too much emphasis on count ries. You are going there to compete and for health and an example to the world , and that 's not what it is. It 's political with a capital "P" . There is no doubt about that at all and you can make a lot of noise if you are a big power and you 'r e liste ned to . And the member himself said , wel l, dismiss these people that met because they 'r e small countries .

Is that the spirit of the Olym pics, that if you 'r e a rich country or a big country you 'r e No. 1 and the others don't count? Cert ainly . MR. DOERN: You'r e being political , now. MR. DESJARDI NS: Wel l, nobody is being more political than the spokesman who spoke before , Mr . Chairman. He brought in the war in Vietnam, and so on. Now, this is not party policy ; it 's my own point of view, the same as what 's the member 's point of view and I didn 't even want to touch on that . But I resent the fact, as I say , to try to blame the politician, theref ore the people , for destr oy­ ing the Olym pics.

Because if it 's going to be destr oyed it 's going to be destroyed by the Olympic Assoc iation , themselv es. So, Mr. Chairman , I think that we 'r e doing the right thing. I'm not going to go blin dly and say at all costs the athletes must be able to do, to go and you spend the money , and so on. It is a problem. We don't know everything. I'm not ready to say right now that the athletes shouldn 't go , but it is not as simple as that and I don't like to see the politic ian criticized for certain things that are none of their doing.

There is no doubt that there is politics and I think they should cl ean house and then they could maybe It could be that with some smaller grants that country can compete , but small countries ca n't host the games any more . It 's ridiculous the money that is spent for a sporting event . It is propoganda and it was encouraged by the Olympic Assoc iation. It is propoganda for the country . They don 't give a damn about the ath let es . You know, if you lose a game they 'r e talking about firing the coach of the Russian teams because he lost the game .

We know, and even my honourable friend will know what they ' re doing to the swimmers , how they developed their swimmers or the weight lif ters and so on with the hormones and different things that they give them. What is that going to do - 1777 -

Friday , 28 March, 19 80 to the youth of the world? And what kind of a training is it giving that you 'v e got to win at all costs? You see that in the pro; you see that everywhere ; you see it here in kids playing hockey because that is the concept and that 's what the Olympics should be fighting . That is the concep t .

I attended a tournament of 10 year olds not too long ago playing hockey and the coach instructed one of the players to take another player out , the smallest guy on the team ; it was a two-han ded swing and pract ically broke his arm and when he came back in the box , he said , "Good , get him again. You 'v e got him on the run" . MR. DOERN : Good coach. MR. DESJARDINS : Good coach but that 's the spirit of the thing , that you 'v e got to win at all games and the parents are the worst because we 1 re not doing anything about it , because money ta lks .

All right , let the politician take their lumps , but don 't exclude the others because I think it is mostly their responsibility . So I am not saying , I want it cle arly understood , Mr. Chairman, that I am not advocating that we boycott - and that 's why I was going to keep my mouth shut - but after the statement from the previous member I couldn 't let that go on the record without some other comments because I think it is wrong.

And I say again that if it 's des troyed it 's going to be des troyed by the Olympic committee them­ selv es , because they 'v e been catering to stronger nation s, to big nations and it 's been politics all the way . Maybe , just maybe thi s could be the best thing , if that could be a fiasco , may be they 'l l rethink the spirit and the conc ept of proper Olympic s, of what it was meant to be and of more even competition and maybe less emphasis on winning countries. What do you see in the newspaper? Medals by Russia ; medals by United State s, and so on .

And maybe we should compete as equal also , you know, for a ce rtain thing , not to make that as a tool of a nation . You talk about Hitle r . That 's what you 'r e getting , you know , to show that your nation is better. It 's not the nation as a who le . They take a few and they 'r e a sac rifice for political reasons , to push a country . And it might be, I don 't know what 's going to happen and it 's a tough decision . But I want to sympath ize with the people who have to make the decision and not just say they have no business there at al l. ; all they are supposed to do is pay the bills.

Until th is is cl ear - and I' m not saying the countries are not to be faulted - but the Olympic Assoc iation has got to be able to be strong enough to be able to have fair play . Would you see anywhere els e • ? I can just imagine the member and myself and the Minister yell ing if we had some of the judging like we have on diving , where you ca n't measure by height or by speed and so on in some of the judg ing.

It 's a very well- known fact that in figure skating - and we saw it again - for instanc e, if the two top people are Russian and a Canadian , le t's say , that the Canadian judge will, in most instanc es , will low-grade the Russian and the Russian will do the same thing and sometimes their friends are part of the game , and I don 't think that the member can deny that. A MEMBER : We need Swiss judge s. MR. DESJARDI NS : Wel l, maybe we need Swiss judges or somebody else. But I think that this might be a good thing , to have the people think again and what are we trying to achieve?

The member is looking at one good part of it . He 's look ing at the future of the athlete who can have all kinds of endorsemen ts, and so on , if he wins and that 's not bad . But are we going to sacrifice everything to the eli te in sport? That 's not the philosophy that we should have , at least on our side of the House , that we 'r e talking about maybe not just going for the el ite and take care of the other peopl e, and that is a dangerous thing. Now, leaving that. oh, I guess it 's practically 12 :3 0. I wanted to go back to the Games and the training and all that , but we have two minutes .

Well then, I might say that the Minister als o said something that I don't like . He is saying that he is studying the region now for the future of the Games . I don 't - 1778 -

Friday , 28 March, 1980 see why . That was done after the Games , and by the Games Committee , the same Mr . Fabro that the Minister has a lot of confidence in and by the way that I have also , his group , when he was chairman of the Games , and again , all the results were very good . And if it 's a quest ion of money , it 's something else , and I kind of suspect that maybe it 's the restraint program of present government . But I ca n't see with the Games the way we have the concept , I was very surprised to say we 'r e going to keep the same concept or is it going to be changed .

If it 's a quest ion, if the Minister feels that he doe sn 't want to spend all that money in that area or he is not sure , that 's something else , but there was no criticism of the Games at all . It was good . Back to my friend from Elmwood , I think the point that he was covering , I think that we have to rememb er that indirectly , in a way , these Games are helping the world class athlete . You'r e going to discover somewhere . • • And you 'r e giving everybody a chance.

You 'r e not going to have only athletes from Winnipeg , people that will have the fac ilities , you might find a nat ive boy in the north that could throw the javelin for mile s, and where does he go from there? He goes to th e Manitoba Games where you enc ourage mass

part icipat ion. In the Summer Games in Neepawa I saw a baseball game that the first baseman and the pitcher were practically as fat as I wa s, but they had a lot of fun and they were practically the age of my friend from Elmwood a