Manitoba Hansard — 10 March 1960 (Sitting 38, 26th Legislature, 2nd Session)

26-2-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly Of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol lUIIe IV No. 38 March 10, 1960 2nd Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. s. Evans. Queen's Printer fqr the Province of Manitoba, Winnipeg

DAILY INDEX Thursday, March 10, 1960, 8:00P.M. Committee of Supply: Public Works, Administration • • • • • • • • . • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1405 Operation and Maintenance, Government Buildings . . • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • . . • 1413 Highways, Aids to Municipalities and Public Works • • • • . • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 1421

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, March lOth, 1960. MR. CHAIRMAN: XI - 1. (a)

(1) MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I believe the Minister was going to answer some questions, was he not? MR. THOMPSON: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I :will commence to answer some of the ques tions which were asked before we adjourned. I think one of the last questions which was raised was that of the Honourable Member for Gladstone who was concerned with the question of the grants formula which applies on various types of roads. There are,various formulas as he men tioned. Of course the Provincial Trunk Highways are lOO% paid for and maintained by the pro vince.

We have lOO% roads which are maintained and paid for by the province on a lOO% basis. They are not provincial trunk highways. They are still under the jurisdiction of the municipality, but they are considered of sufficient importance as inter-municipal connecting roads and of some significance in the provincial picture and, therefore, they are built lOO% by the province. In connection with market roads, the formula is to pay 60% of the cost of construction and mainten ance; the municipality pays 40%.

In connection wi.th access roads, the formula is lOO% to the province to a distance of five miles from any highway into a market centre. In connection with bridges, the formula is 60% to a cost of $10,000 and 70% for the next 15,000 for the bridge, 75% for the next 15,000, and 80% for anything over the $40,000 -- 80% for any bridge cost over 40,000. That is the contribution of the province towards bridge construction; a new formula which was introduced. Of course the access roads are a new formula.

The market roads 60-40, 60 to the province, 40 to the municipality are not a new formula, but we did increase the hard topping, I believe, the surfacing of market roads, and now pay 60% of that. The formula in. towns or villages is 60% of the cost of construction of arterial streets and 40% to the town or village. That includes hardtopping arterial roads or streets, rebui.lding and surfacing any that are approved as arterial. '( Now I think that covers -- oh, the honourable member mentioned the J-3 and J-4 roads and the school roads.

The J-3 and J-4 are, of course, those letters and figures refer to the estimates of forme1• years where, I think, roads in unorganized territories were listed in one of those categories. Yes, J-3 or 4 in the estimates and aids to municipalities in another. Ac tually those figures do not apply to the current estimates. I notice that J-4 concerns the opera tion of ferries. The lettering has beea changed. J-3 and J-4 are no other roads than those I have mentioned.

And now in unorganized territory, I think I mentioned earlier, that the govern ment assumes the role of the municipality and pays lOO% of approved market roads. In local school districts it pays 50% with the local school district in unorganized territory, and the pro vince pays 60% of the constraction of any new school division road. These roads, of course, are first applied fm• by the municipality on the recommendation of the :>c11-jJol division.

They are examined by a representative -- the program for a particular school road is examined by a representative of the Department of Public Works and the Department of Education, and when it is brought before the departments, it's finally approved. If it is to be approved by the De partment of Public Works then it's built on a 60-40 basis between the province an:l the munici pality. Now I think that covers the question of the grant formula program. Now some of the other questions on individual highways, I feel, should be discussed, or at least answered under the particular item of highways.

I assume no one has any objection to that. Now I can't recall -- somebody can remind me --I can't recall of any question that wouldn't come under the high way item. Any of the other -- that is there is no further general policy question that I can think of unless somebody Wishes to remind me of it. MR. PAULLEY: ...... subway at Archibald .•• MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, I thank the Honourable the Minister very kindly for supplying me with the information. There is, however, a couple of points that I'm still not clear on. Number one, as regards the grant formula for the towns, is there a limit in dollars?

And then on school roads, the secretary-treasurers of the divisions and the secretary-treasurers of the municipalities involved can disregard this memorandum that went out to them on August 11th, that is the last two paragraphs of it, where it says that grants with respect to the year 1960 March lOth, 1960 Page 1405

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd.) •.. must be submitted to the municipal engineer not later than Nov ember 30th, '59. That is no longer so, I take it. And then, Mr. Chairman, I don't think the Honourable the Minister mentioned any new grant formula for the rural municipalities, or did he say that he would take that up when we get to Resolution 64? MR . THOMPSON: No, I-- Do you mean new this year or new since we assumed office? MR. SHOEMAKER: Well has it been changed? Has the grant formula to the municipal ities been changed or is it still ..... MR.

THOMPS ON: The change in the grant formula as affecting municipalities which we introduced, any change would include the surfacing of market roads, 60%. The actual for mula of 60-40 has applied for a few years, but the surfacing was included. The access roads, of course, affect various market centres in town and affects the rural municipality. And the bridges, the formula on bridges which I gave you is entirely new, an increased aid for construc tion of municipal bridges. Oh, on the question of the school division memorandum, it's quite true that the memor andum was sent to the schools.

The school divisions suggested that they should have their ap plications in by a certain date. That has not been a deadline. That was a request in order that the department might assemble the information and get it together and start rolling on it, but nobody has been cut off or refused and no application has been turned down because it didn't arrive on the date which you mentioned. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that I missed two or three min utes here after 8 o'clock. I didn't get in.

But did the Honourable the Minister answer the question as regards access roads where the town or village is beyond the five mile limit? When I asked the question-- the Village of Helston, for instance, is 6 1/2 miles from the highway. They want to know, is the government prepared to put in the five miles, the municipality will pay the mile and a half? Or if, as I pointed out before the supper, a case where it is 5 1/4 miles to make it more complicated. MR . THOMPSON: Any situation like that I am sure probably could be taken under con sideration, but the policy is definitely the five mile limit • .. MR .

EDMOND PREFONTAINE (Carlilon): Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a few remarks, and I will start by saying that it seemed to me that the Minister was somewhat apologetic for the fact that he realized, as many of us do, that the performance was not up to the promises that were made, not only in the election of '58 but in the session of 158 in October and November, when we were asked to approve an expenditure of $33,000, 000; the promises made in the election of 159 and again last July during the session when we approved of some other $20,000, 000.

It seems to me that the Minister put the blame to quite an extent on the fact that we had very bad weather last fall. But it seems to me that we should not forget, Mr. Chairman, that we had the most beautiful construction weather from the middle of June to the first of September -- unusually good weather. The farmers were praying for rain during those 2 1/2 months. Everything went bone dry.

They were the two best construction months that I think this province has ever seen, so that nature has a way to balance things and the overall situation for construction in the whole of 1959, to my mind, was not as bad as was made out to appear by the speech of the Minister. the other day. And I say that instead of members of the opposition applauding when he made certain statements, that they should have asked themselves whether or not the performance was along the lines of the promises made. The Minister com pared the number of miles that were constructed in the years 1957, 158 and '59.

He came out with the nice result that there was 1/3% done in '59 than in previous years. But there was much more· money and much better equipment to build roads in 1959, because the contractors have come out with new equipment. The manufacturers of road buUding machinery have turned out the famous . . . . • • There were very few in '57, and in '56 none at all I don't think, but a lot of them in 1959.

Th:Jse machines turn out double the dirt in a day's work than the old machines that we had when we were constructing roads, so that with more money, better equipment and machinery at the disposal of the Minister, it's not surpr�sing --what surprises me is that his record of performance was not better than he told us that it was. That's the surprise as ·far as I am concerned. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, there's nothing to boast. �It did not come close to matching the promises that were made. Now the question of these access roads has me puzzled also to a certain extent. The Page 1406 March lOth, 1960

(Mr. Prefontalne, cont'd.) • •• municipality where I live and have my land was told during the course of the summer that certain roads would be considered as access roads. One of them was an access road from highway 59 to the village· of Otterburne; another one from the highway 59 to the village of Kerry. The municipality was told that the government would pay full main tenance on these roads. These are market road.s, narrow road15, and I understood the Minister to say that an access road leading from a paved highway should be a paved highway also, the same type of road.

I would like to ask the Minister whether he intends to rebuild these roads that we have, say from 59 to Otterburne, build them 34 feet wide as a trunk highway, present standard, or 30 feet wide as the standard was on 59 when it was built, and pave these roads; and whether that will be done this year. The question of the mileage from the village to a trunk highway interests me very much because I have in my constituency the village of Grunthal which is approximately five miles as the crow flies.

But there are obstacles there if the department would like to construct a road in a straight line -- natural obstacles -- and it would serve very few people. I wonder if the Mini.ster would consider using the natural road which would add a mile and a half, and whether this mile and a half could be considered also as an access road and be paid for lOO% by the government because of these hazards.

I would be very much interested in learning from the Minister whether an access road has to be built on a full trunk highway standard if it meets a trunk highway; or if an access road could be built say 30 feet wide, or 26 if there's a road there, and if it's suitable to put the blacktop on that surface if it happens to be land that is suit able for this type of construction. We have certain roads in this province that have been treat ed with blacktop where the subsoil and the grade is good, on rocky and stony land, so that it has been able to withstand quite a load of traffic.

So this is about all that I want to discuss now. I know the question of locations of certain roads might come up, especially on the capital vote, because we haven't yet the road program. I would like to state that although $88, 000, 000 has been voted for these two years, '58 and '59 -- my figure of $88, 000, 000 -- 36 that we had voted in 158; $33, 000, 000 in the fall of 158; and $20, 000, 000 in July; so that I haven't seen many of those roads built in my part of the country.

There were two roads that were approved of and in the program that was placed before us by the former Minister of Pu blic Works, the 13 mile road from St. Pierre corner to Steinbach was to be a blacktop -- I don't know that anything has been done on it. I know that nothing has been done. I don't think the contract has been let and now we hear from the Minister that there might be changes. I hope that the changes will not affect this road. There was another promise made and a vote passed with respect to reconstructing from Morris to La Rochelle, highway 23 east.

I don't know what the future of this road --I hope that it will be done. I suggest that there might be some other roads that might be more important possibly than this one, but maybe this could be discussed later. For the present I would certainly like to ask the Minister whether he intends to reconstruct these access roads in my part of the country. MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, we are not announcing here at the moment what access roads will be built, in fact I don't think it is the policy to list access roads.

One of the roads which you mention in your area, I think in connection with that we should wait to see our program when it is laid before you. But access roads normally will not be tabled. No. They will not be tabled. But on the question of construction, you raised a point which I think is worthwhile in that connection because I believe I probably could have given the wrong impression if I did say that access roads are of the same standard as the trunk highway. They're not the same standard.

They will be given the same surface as the adjoining trunk highway but not necessarily -- certainly not in most case, probably in every case -- the same standard. They may be narrower and they may have less base and so on, but they are not given the same stan dard. I don't like to further the weather issue, but the honourable member brought it up and said that we had some of the dryest seasons on record. They keep a record in this department. I notice that he mentioned July. It says here that July was 21% above normal rainfall; August was 56% above normal rainfall; September was 76% above normal. MR.

PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, this record was not taken on my farm because at that ttme everything was bone dry and kept dry. I don't know where the records were taken, but I'm a farmer and I know very well that we've never experienced such a dry spell of weather from the end of June to the end of August -- i.n our part of the country anyway. And I think this is pretty general too. March lOth, 1960 Page 1407

MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I happen to be 200 miles away from my honour able friend and the same conditions applied up there. We had very, very little rain during the summer months, but that isn't why I got up. Did I understand the Minister right when he said that he is not going to give us particulars of where the locations of these access roads are going to be? Well that surprises me very much, Mr. Chairman. Why would the Honourable Minister tell us that he1s spending a mi.Uion dollars for 62.6 miles, and 62.6 miles looks to me as if somebody took pretty accurate measurements.

It's not 62 or 63 miles, it's 62.6, so I don't see why he can't tell us where he's going to spend that million dollars, in fact I think he should tell us. MR. THOMPSON: I'm sorry. I can give you those. I was ::;peaking about the ones we are planning for the coming year. I can give you that list of those that have been approved. I mentioned that work orders had been issued for them. I can certainly give you those. I don't know whether I have the list here at the moment. I'll get that for you. Let's see if I have it. Oh yes, here it is. Do you wish a copy of the list or would you like it presented? MR.

HRYHORCZUK: Give it to us verbally right now if you happen to have it. That's good enough. MR. THOMPSON: Yes, I have it here. Yes. It's headed: highway No., town or vil lage, municipality, nature of work, mileage and amount of work order. Those are the head ings. We have Alexander in Whitehead municipality --widening, gravelling and prime . 6 miles for $4200. By the way, in answer to the question which the honourable member raised earlier about trying to figure out the cost of the road, and he thought it was around I think $15,000 per mile for an access road, and it didn't appear to be enough.

These figures which I am giving you cover the amount of work for which an order has been issued. The access road may not be completed in these figures. It might be the grading or gravelling; or it might be some prime treatment or something; it might be part of the construction; they may have to have some other addition at another time. Now I read the first one.

The next is Treherne, municipality of South Norfolk --gravelling, base course, bituminous mat, 7/10 of a mile, $17, 000; Haywood in Gray municipality --grading, gravelling and bituminous mat, 1. 5 miles, $22, 500; Wawanesa, municipality of Oakland --grading and gravelling, 3. 2 miles, $37, 000; Nesbitt, Oakland muni cipality --gravelling and prime, 3/4 of a mile, $2600; Pipestone, Pipestone municipality - seal coat, 1/2 mile, $600; Darlingford in Pembina municipality --base course, bitumino'.ls mat, 9/10 of a mile, $18, 000; Manitou in Pembina municipality --base course and seal coat, 3/10 of a mile, $4300; Cartwright in Roblin municipality --seal coat, 6/10 of a mile, $600; Holmfield, Roblin in Turtle Mountain municipality --grading, gravelling and prime, 3. 7 miles, $58, 000; Killarney iu Turtle Mountain --base course, bituminous mat and seal coat, 1 1/2 miles, $21, 200; Ninga in Turtle Mountain municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 4.15 miles, $67, 000; Deloraine in Winchester municipality --gravelling and prime, 1 mile, $2500; Napinka in Brenda municipality --grading, gravelling and prime, 4.3 miles, $44,400; Arden in Lansdowne municipality --bituminous mat, 3/10 of a mile, $3000; Neepawa in Langford municipality --seal coat, 7/10, $1300; Newdale, Harrison municipality --grading, gravelling, 1. 1 mile, $13, 000; Strathclair in Strathclair municipality --grading, gravelling and prime, bituminous mat, 1 mile, $26, 500; Shoal Lake in Shoal Lake municipality-- base course, bit uminous mat, 1 mile, $18, 700; Kelloe in Shoal Lake municipality --grading and gravelling, 4/10 of a mile, $5500; Solsgirth in Birtle municipality --grading and gravelling, 1.1, $13, 500; Foxwarren in Birtle municipality --base course, bitumino'.ls mat, 1/2 mile, $9300; Binscarth in Russell municipality --base course, bitumino'.ls mat, 6/10, $10, 000; Russell in Russell municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 1/2 mile, $22, 000; Kelwood in Rosedale muni cipality --bituminous mat, 9/10, $14, 447; McCrea ry in McCreary municipality --bituminous mat, 8/10 of a mile, $6232; Ste.

Rose in Ste. Rose municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 1/2 mile, $9900; Oak River in Oak River municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 7/10 of a mile, $10,200; Gilbert Plains in Gilbert Plains municipality --grading, base course, bitumino'.ls mat; 1/10 of a mile, $11, 672; Grandview in Grandview municipality --grading and base course, bituminous mat, 3/10, $18, 200; Warren in Woodlands municipality --grading and gravelling, 2-.l'mile, $16, 000; Highways 8 and 9, Arnes, Camp Morton, Ponemah, Whytewold and Matlock, in the Giinli, St.

Andrews and Village of .. •.. municipalities --grading and gra velling, 5. 8 miles, $130, 000; Netley, St. Andrews municipality --reconstruction, half a ni le, Page 1408 March lOth, 1960

(Mr. T'aompson, cont'd.) •.• $2,475; No. 9, Petersfield, St.

Andrews -- base course plan, 1/2 mile, $5, 000; in Gimli, Gimli. municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 7/101s, $57, 000; M into in Vlhi.tewater Municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 45/100 of a mile, $15, 000; No. 10, Erickson, Clanwilliam --base course, bituminous mat, 4/10 of a mile, $17, 005; No. 11 Highway, Lac du Bonnet in Lac du Bonnet municipality --base course, bituminous mat, one mile, $26, 006; Belair, Local Government District of Alexander in connection with H!.ghway 12 --grading and gravelling, 1 1/2 miles, $35, 000; No. 14 Highway, Rosenfcld in Rhineland mun icipality --base course, bituminous mat, 3/4 of a mile, $15, 000; No. 14, Plum Coulee in Rhi.neland municipality-- base course, bituminous mat, 1.1, $19, 700; No. 15, Transcona in Springfield municipality --base course, bituminous mat, 3/4 of a mile, $15, 000; Hamiota in Hamiota municipality -- grading and gravelling, 1/4 of a mile, $12, 000; St.

Leon in Lame municipality-- grading and gravelling, 1.6 miles, $23, 500; Fairfax, No. 23 Highway, in White water municipality -- gravelling and prime, 8/10-, $2,200; on No. 41, Manson in Archie munici pality --grading and gravelling, 4/10, $8, 000; No. 41, Mc.Auley, Archle municipality --'grad ing and gravelling, 3/10 of a mile, $5, 500; Niverville on Highway 59, in Hanover municipality --gravelling, 3 miles, $7, 000; No. 83, Melita in Arthur municipality --base course, bitumin ous mat, 7/10, $16,500; Pipestone, No. 83 --I thought I read that before, this may be another step --yes, it is, the other was seal coat --base course, bitumino·�s mat, 8/10 of a mile, $16,000; Miniota in Miniota municipality on Highway 83 --grading and gravelling, 1/10 of a mile, $2, 000; San Clara on Highway 83, the Local Government District of Park -- grading, gravelling, one mile, $15, 000.

That's the list of access roads for which work orders have been approved but the work is not necessarily done. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, from that list it's quite evident that the southwest part of this province is pretty well blanketted. --(Interjection) --Well there may be a good reason for that, maybe there are no such creatures in Hamiota. But I notice that when you get down into the northern half of this province, or the heart of this province, there's very little work on that program. In my own constituency there is on No. 5, there's some work there in Gilbert Plains.

I never noticed anything in the northern part of it or in the eastern part of it; nor have I noted any in my very good friend the Honourable Member from Swan River, had any acoess roads in his constituency, and I am very much concerned with that part of the province too. Aud I was just wondering whether the Minister intends to extend that program? Is he go ing to bring in some further appropriations in that regard or is that the end of them for 1960? MR. THOMPSON: That's just the beginning. We'll be carrying on with this program. MR.

HRYHORCZ1JK: Will the Minister be in a position to give us details of his future plans before we're through with these estimates? MR. THOMPSON: No. No I won't have those. MR. HRYHORCZUK: That means we poor fellows up north will have to wait until 1961 before we know whether there is going to be anything done or not. Is that it? MR. SHOEThiAKER: It was interesting to listen to the Honourable Minister give us the list of the 62 some odd miles of access roads that were bailt or are to be built under this pro gram.

But I think it does just point up what I said earlier, that it appears that the "squeaking wheel gets the grease". Now supposing that --(Interjection) --and my honourable friend from Ethelbert-Plains apparently hasn't been squeaking loud enough. But supposing, Mr. Chairman, that the Honourable the Minister receives requests from various municipalities this year for t.wo or three hundred miles of access roads. In what order does he intend to deal with them or to put the road in? In what order? MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr.

Chairman, in the list that the Minister read to us, could he give me the figures in mileage again for Killarney and Warren? Could I have the figures in mileage that you gave us for Killarney and for Warren? Killarney was amongst the first and Warren was about halfway past the list. MR. THOMPSON: Killarney was 1 1/2 miles, and Warren, 2.1 miles. MR. MOLGAT: I just wanted to verify those, Mr. Chairman, because that's the note I had made.

Now from what I recall of both locations, neither are that distance from the high way, and I just wonder what the policy is in this regard because it seems to me that the Minister in speaking this afternoon in reply to the Member from Brokenhead said that all accesses were single access. Now take the case of Warren, for example, as I recall the location there, the March lOth, 1960 Page 1409

(Mr. Molgat, cont1d.) .•. highway just skirts around the edge of the village, and I don't remem ber being at any point beyond a mile from the village. Now how do we get 2.1 miles of access road if we are only building one road in, and similarly with Killarney. MR. THOMPSON: On Warren, it seems to me that it's longer than a mile into Warren from the highway. I have been there on occasions at hockey games in fact -- (Interjection) - Yes I guess so. The general policy is certainly one way now; but there may have been some special circumstances, I am not sure. But I would say that -- MR.

PREFONTAINE:- .•.••. paving the main street? MR. THOMPSON: Yes it includes paving the main street, to the end of the business section. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the Minister can't be expected to know every detail, I realize, because he is fairly new in the department. I wonder if he could check for us and see which ones of those locations have double accesses and which ones have single accesses. I don't need the information now; later will be all right. MR. RIDLEY: ••• .•• the road into Killarney. If they didn't want that, I think the com mittee would agree to take it off.

I don't know if the member from Turtle-Mountain would agree to that or not. MR. CORBETT: Mr. Chairman, to get away from these access roads for one minute, the Honoarable Member for Carillon and the Honourable Member for Ethelbert told us about how dry it was in their constituencies. I wonder would the Honourable Member for LaVeren drye tell us how dry it was out around Ste. Anne and Niverville this summer? MR. STAN ROBERTS (La Verendrye): Mr.

Chairman, I concur entirely in what has been said by the Honourable Member for Cari.llon, I believe, and the Honourable Member for Ethelbert-Plains, because we had the dryest two months from the 15th of June until the 15th of August that we had ever experienced in the area; and the easiest two months for road construc tion and the easiest two months for farming that we have ever experienced in the area because of the dry weather. MR. J. M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, what is the government's policy in regard to re-building the roads? Highway No. 14A from Rosenfeld to the U.

S. border is in a shape where it's a wavey surface, and it's all right if you proceed at a slow speed, but if you hit a little higher speed it's almost impossible to drive on it. Secondly, the highway needs shoulders very badly. And also in connection with highway 32, a newly constructed road, which I think is a very good road and the people in the constituency really appreciate having a road li.ke that, but it has a lot of heavy traffic on it. However, there are two sections about probably a mile _each where you have these holes, pot-holes and holes breaking through.

I think some thing should be done on that road before it gets into too poor a state. It would be much cheaper to do something on it at as early as possible a time before it gets into too poor condition. MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan): Mr. Chairman, I don't know if the Honourable Member from Rhineland or Cari.llon have mentioned this road that I am going to speak about. I am go- ing out of my constituency. That's highway 52 between 59 and Steinbach. Now the Honourable Member from Carillon he can remember, it was built when his party was in power an::l there's been all kinds of money spent on it.

There is a section, just about oh, I'd say half a mile from 59 where a creek runs right through the roadbed. Every fall -- time and springtime there is no road, and I am sure that this spring the same -thing will happen whether we have any rain or snowfall or dry or wet. There is no road because it's in a swamp there.

And I believe myself, and I have to travel that road, which unfortunately I can say the "out-laws" live out there, so I drive out that way, and I have been travelling that road quite a number of years and it sure is - every spring and fall-time you go through there either you have to get dragged through there or you have to detour. And there has been thousands of dollars spent on that road, on that 52 there, so I don't know what the engineers, when they go on construction, why they spend all that money.

Actually what they need there -- there should be a bridge buUt there and I don't know if the engin eer, I mean the Minister of Public Works has that under advisement or whether he knows about that stretch of road but, well I can estimate it's been how many years now, about 6 years, maybe more, has been thousands of dollars poured in that road and if they don't put a bridge abutment there or something there'll be thousands more dollars spent there. I think it's a useless waste of money, in fact the dragline is sitting there right now that was left there last fall, and this Page 1410 March lOth, 1960

(Mr. Reid, cont'd.) •.. spring they will be on the job again. So it's just waste of money, Mr. Chairman. MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, as Attorney-General I would like to a;:;k a question of the honourable member. If he could let me know where these "out-laws" are that he is referring to, I'd be quite happy to have the RCMP look into.the situation for him. MR. PREFONTAINE: Mr. Chairman, I'd'like to add a word about this 52 highway and this Tourond Creek that comes from the southeast and follows number 52 highway for six miles in a straight westerly direction.

This road was started by the former government in the spring of 158. I believe the contract was let but the construction was ouly started when there was a change of government. It is a very bad spot and the government, the new government has had diff iculty since it started to administer the department; the diff iculty is still with us. They con structed that road in the fall of 158; they reconstructed it last year in 159.

It's not completed and there's great danger for the water to run across the road and flood part of the constituency of LaVerendrye and the Municipality of Hanover and Ritchot next sprin g if the department does not watch what's going to happen. Fortunately the Tourond Creek has been reconstructed and we hope that we will be saved the damages that have occurred in the past. But there is one flaw in the construction, and that is, that the bank on the south side along the creek is not quite high enough to protect the land ori the south side of that bank. MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Mr.

Chairman, it's customary for the Min ister each year when he starts his estimates to give us the miles of proposed road work each year. Does he intend to do that this year? When will we be getting it? MR. THOMPSON: When the list i.s tabled and circulated. MR. GUTTORMSON: Pardon? When do you intend to table the brochure indicating the amount of road work planned for the year. The number of each highway. MR. THOMPSON: Under the highway item of the estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 (

b) passed. MR. JOHN P. TANCHAK ·(Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I would like to put in a few words. I also wish to concur in what the Honourable Member for Carillon and the Honourable Member for Gilbert Plains have said about the weather. I didn't hear the Minister mention June --July and August, and I think September percipitation was read to us but not June, and I would say that June, July and August and part of September were very dry months in my area but - (Interjection) --That's quite true. They were quite dry.

In fact the farmers were worried in July that they just had enough rain to keep the crop surviving, but what I wanted to know --I don't think the Honourable the Minister, he's too busy right now, I don't think he'll hear me -- I don't think he heard the Honourable Member from Gladstone before. I think the Honourable Member from Gladstone asked a question which wasn't answere:l, and that is, in case some more applications from municipalities come in for access roads this year. He asked in what ol·der, what preference they will be treated.

I'm interested in that too because I have several access roads that the municipalities have applied for. One is the road from Sprague to No. 12. They were promised that road a year ago and nothing has been done on it. Another access road was at St. Jean, and that's where the Hono:.trable the First Minister himself at a meeting before the elections, told them that it was a disgrace that such a forward looking town as St. Jean hasn't got a proper access road, although I must say that the road wasn't as bad as he really described it at that time.

There were a few holes --it was the old No. 14 before the 75 was built, but since it was promised these people are still waiting. He said he's going to give them a 20th century road, not a road full of potholes and so on. True, it was the town or probably the Publi.c Works did fill in some of those holes, but it wasn't what was promised. The promise wasn't kept and I'd like to know about this access road, also the access road to St. Joseph. I understand from the 75 to St. Joseph, I understand, that they applied for that road. I'd like to know about that. They haven't received an OK on it.

The road to Ridgeville, access road, and the road to . . . . . . I'd like the Minister to answer the questions whether the depart ment would consider and i.n what order, what preference would they be given? · MR. THOMPSON: I would say that priority will be given to those roads which are lo cated in the area where general construction may be going on this corring year, that is, it will be more economical to tie them in with road construction which is going on in the general area. Otherwise, it's purely a matter of engineering advice and we would line them up in that manner. March lOth, 1960 Page 1411

MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, I was just wondering if the Minister or his department have ever taken under consideration a survey of road-- I don't know whether you call it an access road or a connecting road between No. 1 and 59. I know many of the honourable mem bers have travelled the No. 1 highway in the summertime and from St. Anne's in, you travel about 30 miles an hour, bumper to bumper, and you get over further we've got a very good road on 59, about two miles over, two or three miles,. and the road is practically empty.

So I was just thinking if the Minister could take it under consideration or have a survey from say St. Anne's over to 59, have a connecting link there and re-route some of that traffic from No. 1 over to 59, and there'd be a more steady flow of traffic and we could use both highways; be cause there is a gravel road but it's not straight through, and I don't think that if a survey was taken it would be not a very major project. We're talking about connecting links and I think that would be a ver-y good project.

In fact I brought it up at the last session and the previous Minister was going to look into it, and now we have a new Minister and I'd appreciate it ve:ry much if he would take it under consideration and look into that matter. MR . SHOEJl!IAKER: Mr. Chairman, we've had a prett-y thorough discussion on what constitutes 20th century roads, and the Honourable the Minister has suggested that the new specifications call for greater structural strength and much heavier sub-grade base and base course and so on.

Now is the Honourable Minister suggesting that these new specifications re sult from new engineering thinking in this regard, or is he insinuating that the former adminis tration knew about them all the time and simply refused to follow the advice of the engineers? MR. THOMPSON: Mr. Chairman, I can only say that I do not know what prompted pol icy adopted by· the former administration. I had no say whatsoever in what policies were de cided at that time. I do know that under this administration we have adopted this policy. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed; (

b) Post Office:

(1) Salaries (2) passed; (3) passed. MR. CAMPBELL: Could we get the numbers there of people in each case, Mr. Chair man? While the Honourable Minister is looking the number of salaries for both (

a) and (

b) up, I was just wondering if it might be more suitable to the convenience of the Minister in these cases if he would, at the beginning or the end, run through all the salary items at one time and save us raising that question and save him the bother of having the question come up on every one of the ind ividual items where the salaries appear. Would he prefer to do that now and ptit the numbers on record all the way through this department, and then we wouldn't have to be interrupting him each time with the salary question. MR . THOMPSON: You'd like the salaries in each section. MR.

CAMFBELL: Yes, if you could do it that way, and then we wouldn't have to in terrupt each time. MR. THOMPSON: Under XI 1 (

a) the number is 42; XI 1 (!:)) 7; XI 1 (d); and XI 2 (1) is •• .. •• MR. CAMPBELL: It's whatever the Minister prefers, Mr. Chairman. I've no .•• MR. THOMPSON: It doesn't make very much-- perhaps i.t might be quicker to get them each time then I would only have to thumb through here once. That item where I left off, I'll just give it to you. XI 2 (aj (1) is 35. Fine. MR. CAMPBELL: That's under Legislative Buildings? MR . THOMPSON: Yes. MR. CAMPBELL: Thank you. MR . THOMFSON: Shall we go back to the beginning and-- (Interjection) -- Yes, I seeo MR. CHAffil\1AN: 3 (

b) passed. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, was the Ministry of Propaganda created this year, because I notice there was no postage last year i.n the estimates. MR. THOMPSON: .••... postage of course now is the expense of the Department of Public Works for all departmentso The postage here you'll notice is ..•.•• MR. CHAIRMAN: (

b) passed; (

c) passed. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I notice there's quite a change in the taxes down ward. What's the reason for that? $20,000 down. MR. THOMPSON .••... give the opposition that information. The decrease is $20,000. I believe the reason simply is that there was more estimated than required last year. The Page 1412 March lOth, 1960

(Mr. Thompson, cont'd.) ••. taxes are about the same. MR. CAMPBELL: I think that would likely be true, Mr. Chairman, because I'm sure that nobody finds taxes going down any place so likely there was --I see the Minister of Edu cation looking up -- they'll be going up not down I suppose. Likely it was an over-estimate, was it, Mr. Chairman? MR . THOMPSON: Yes, it was an over-estimate. MR. HRYHORCZUK: •••... the grants i.n lieu of ta..'tes item? Is that what this is. MR . THOMPSON: Yes, this includes grants. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make one comment here.

We still have considerable crown lands in the Province of Manitoba and some of these crown lands are found in organized municipalities as well .as unorganized and disorganized, and whenever a mllnicipality constructs a road or a piece of drain that has to run along these crown lands which are not revenue bearing, they still cost the municipality just as much as if they had been inhabited and were revenue bearing; and I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that the Minister, together with the other members of the Cabinet take a hard look at this and see if they wouldn't agree with me that there should be a small grant in lieu of taxes on all crown lands; and I would suggest that the amount be say ten cents an acre which isn't a big amount hilt it would help to reimburse the municipality for constructing municipal works alongside or ad joining crown lands. MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) 1 and 2 passed; (

e) passed. MR . CAMPBELL: In this one, Mr. Chairman, the item is considerably increased. suppose that's due to the fact that we are self-insurers, is it? And that some particular acci dent or accidents have happened to employees. -- (Interjection} -- That's what I mean. W..R. HRYHORCZUK: It would' appear to me, Mr. Chairman, the only accident that could have happened to them is that they are unemployed. Are the numbers of unemployed go ing up or are you anticipating anything of that nature? MR.

THO�A:PSON: No, no, the rate -- the government of Canada unemployment insur ance increased t..h.eir rates effective October 1st 159. IVIR. CAMPBELL: .•... other tax increase. MR. MOLGAT: Surely they didn't increase them that much though, did they? I'm one of the first ones to admit that the Federal government have increased taxes tremendously. I agree that this Government is doing the same, but surely not from $26,000 to 45? Is there an explanation, Mr. Chairman? MR .

THOMPSON: If :you wish some further comment on that the government share of unemployment insurance for casual employees which policy was made effective June 1st 154. That's what we're estimating here -- the $45,000 that's the employees' share. Unemployment insurance shall be paid only with regard to time certificate employees and not with regard to established or provisional employees. Unemployment insurance is paid only to those with a time certificate category, who present only unemployment insurance books or who request such payments.

And unemployment insurance is paid only to those in the time certificate category who are eligible under the Federal Government

schedule for such payment but the in crease appears to be shown there. That's the only explanation I can give. MR. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, how many employees does that cover, the unemployment insurance, how many are covered under this plan and how many were covered last year? MR. THOMPSON: I'll have to get that information. I haven't it here. MR . FROESE: Mr.

Chairman, under the revision last year was it not that only employ ees having a certain income would be covered by unemployment insurance, but under this· re vision, I think, more of the higher class or higher paid people were also eligible under this new plan and that is the reason for the increase in cost, is that it? MR . CHAIRM AN: 62 Administration $645,135 passed; No. 2 Operation Maintenance, Government Buildings {a) 1. MR. ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, under item 2 Op eration and Maintenance of government buildings I would like to take a couple of minutes to make a few remarks.

In l'egard to our own building here, I think we will all agree that this building is one of the finest on the continent, but I think that as building that's needed for a more utility purpose March lOth, 1960 Page 1413

(Mr. Wright, cont'd.) ... it does not meet -� fill the bill. For instance, the other morning, Tuesday morning, at Law Amendments the first speaker tried to make himself heard and turned around and just about gave up the ghost. Now there is such as thing as familiarity breeding contempt and I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that perhaps we have been guilty of this too, in regard to our own building here from the viewpoint of utility. Good communications is the very essence of good government. If you don't understand the other fellow, well it's that much more difficult.

I think even this morning in Law Amendments, one of the speakers expressed dismay over the fact that he could not be heard. In all sincereity, Mr.

Chairman, I think it is time to take a look at this building because we should not only look at it for its beauty but also for the purpose of being able to get the business of the government done; and I would sincerely suggest that perhaps we wi.ll have to change our thinking and it might be more practical to have our commit tee meetings in the basement where we could properly accousticize the place; so that when we invite these people to come to speak before Law Amendments we will have better communica tions, and be able to hear what it is that they are trying to tell us.

Now I think that looking at the building -- take the members rooms and the caucus rooms -- the accoustics in there is deplorable. While we admire the handiwork that went into the building of it, that doesn't do us very much good when we are trying to be heard and trying to be understood. The lighting in there-- in the members room-- it is pretty difficult even to read a newspaper. Now one of the first places you meet the rest of the members in the morning is sometimes in the wash-, room and for someone to even be so boisterous to say good morning in a loud voice, it is just deafening.

The sound reverberated from all the hard surfaces there and it is impossible to understand what anyone is saying. I submit in regard to this chamber, Mr.

Chairman, that we are not only violating the regulations of the Fire Preventions Act, the Health Act, and I could go on to find many more acts, for instance, being a non- smoker I look around from time to time and find the floor burning here with butts all over the floor with wax on the floors; and I would humbly suggest that these antiquated ink wells that we have here, and are not in use, be turned into ash trays because if we are going to allow smoking I think we should do it with some semblance of modernizing it. Now, .••... no. -- (Interjection) - - •• ..•. Mr.

Chair man, � work for the railway and I have staged a one man crusade against cuspidors; as far as the Health Act is concerned, Mr. Chairman, the fact that we are-- and I should say too, ·though that the staff are very, very conscientious in as much as they try to keep the drinking glasses clean -- but we are drinking in the washroom from the same drinking glasses; we are also us ing the same hair brush and I thought the other night when I looked in the mirror that as a re sult of using that perhaps my hair was thickening a little and some of it might become trans planted.

However, I'm serious about this though, I think the time has come when we should take a look at the building. For instance, Mr. Chairman, the page boys have to run constantly for water to .the outer room when all that's necessary is to place an 18" by 18" by 4" high re frigerated drinking fountain at the back of this chamber.

It would not be an eyesore and I cer tainly think it would certainly be appreciated. -- (Interjectio n) -- Well, I don't think it would hurt to take a look at the washroom, to put paper towels in there, or to have paper cups in there and it would not hurt if we even took a look at the idea of installing electric razor outlets because there are many of us who come here in the mornings at 9 o'clock and don't get out of here till ll and that 5 o'clock shadow begins to show up and I think it would probably make us look a little better about this time of the night.

We could even have a barber shop and I would say we could even have a manicurist in a day or two if you wanted it. However, one thing, Mr.

Chairman, it does strike me as being very necessary, and that is I believe that we should have when the Minister is going through his estimates -- and it's easy to understand how he needs the assistance of his deputies; novv our laws here prohi bit the deputyfrom coming down here into the chamber but we have noticed that there's quite a lot of liaison going on between the deputies and the Ministers, and while we have a couple of fast young fellows here to do the running, I would humbly submit that I don't think it would be beyond the realm of reason to have a sort of intercom for Cabinet Ministers during the es timates.

It would certainly speed up things and I don't see anything wrong with it. We can't expect the Ministers to have all the information and if it is necessary to get this information why not do it in a more open manner. Someone suggested that we have individual desk lights but I haven't got to the stage where I can't see that far yet. Page 1414 March lOth, 1960

(Mr. Wrlght, cont'd.) •.• We might also consider, Mr. Chairman,_ in llghter vein, that we could even have a metered gate; to help to defray the expenses we dould charge these membc·s who are contin ually running in and out of here; we could plan a ten cent fee on them so that they would help to defray the cost of some of these things. . I look around, I don't know what it looks like from the gallery, Mr.

Chairman, but when you see the waste paper that gets torn up and so on all over the floor here along with all the buts -- it must look rather unsightly from the gallery and I think we should look into the prob lem of disposing of it in a more civilized way. Someone has suggested if we want to ·glamorize the place a ll t tle more we could even replace our page boys with sort of cigarette girls like we see on the TV and the cabarets and so. on. But anyway, in a more serious vein, Mr.

Chair man, I don't want to take too long, I do thin.� the time has come when we could well look at our own House hwere because I think that we have a building to be very pro:J.d of-- but I think we could make it more utilitarian and this business of proper communication is of utmost impor tance, because if we don't understand each other I don't see how we can get along.

For in stance, I will tall a little story: In West Kildonan some two or three years ago we initiated the meetings with the other municipalities in regard to uniform taxation in regard to gas, and we invited all the other suburbs to come to West Kildonan in our new municipal hall and to meet with us; we had three meetings there and harmony prevailed; Mayor Juba then suggested that it was a !ittle far out to come and he suggested that the next meeting be held in the Winnipeg city hall; and I might tell the House that that meeting ended in chaos, and in trying to analyze the reason for it in view of the previous harmony, I was led to believe that beca:J.se in the Winnipeg city hall the accoustics are so deplorable I don't think that any one of us knew what the other fellow was saying.

I just wanted to go on record tonight, Mr. Chairman, as asking the Gov ernment to give some consideration and appoint someone who is trained in this business of bringing this building up to par. • ••••••..•.• continued on next page. March lOth, 1960 Page 1415

MR. CAMP BELL: Mr. Chairman, the Honourable the Member for Seven Oaks has the same idea that I was going to speak on except that characteristically I was not prepared to advocate such sweeping innovations as he has suggested. But I was going to deal with two particular matters that have been, I think, rather emphasized in the last few days in Law Amendments Committee. That was that I thought that in there we should move now to get some public address system installed because it has been difficult for some of the people who have been appearing there to make themselves heard.

I suppose this is another case wh ere honour able members on that side of the House will say why didn't you do it wh en. Well, the main reason was that we didn't have people to come over protesting against leaders of legislation or the government policy in the days when we were there . They naturally were very pleased· with what was being given there and we didn't have the huge crowds that now come to te ll the government what they' re doing wrongly.

But whatever the reasons for the fact that they are there, there have been a lot of people attending and a lot of important legislation to be dealt with, and like my honourable friend I was going to suggest a public address system in the Law Amendments Committee room .

And then I just getting around to about the same idea that he was in another particular in there, because I think that' s one place, more than here, wh ere we need a water cooler, because I notice that a lot of folks seem to get pretty dry in there - whether it's their contact with the speeches that some of my honourable friends make in there as well as here, and whate ver the reason the gentleman who guards the door and carries mess ages and such like has, from my own observation, brought a pitcher of water in six or seven times during a morning and carts a series of glasses around to different people, some of the honourable members even being so lazy that they won't go down and get one for themselves, and to the speakers and I'm sure that as the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks has mentioned that the Health Department probably would wo nder a bit about the glasses that we use in there .

So I wasn't going to go as far as all these other innovations but I had thought of a public address system in the Law Amendments Comm ittee room and certainly a water cooler there . Now we were talking a little while ago about whether this was or was not a dry summer --I don't know, but it's been a dry session and a lot of people seem to need the services of the water cooler and I'd say particularly in the Law Amendments Com mittee . MR. CHAIRMAN : ..... .... the gentleman speaking would have gone one step further and suggested a cup of refreshment for the Chairman of the Comm ittee during a long session. MR.

CAMPBELL: I think that's a good idea. MR. L. DESJARDINS (St . Boniface) : Mr. Chairman, if we're going to make all these changes in this building I think that there is one we definitely should not forget is the cafeteria downstairs . I think the service for so many people is very bad, very slow, and I think that the place is a little small with all the se people -- I don't know when all the se people work but if they only take 15 minutes a day, it's a long 15 minutes. I wonder how many hours are wasted there, but nevertheless it is needed, and I think that the service seems to be very bad. MR. CHAIRMAN : 2 a

(1) MR. THOMPSON : I wanted to refer back for a second to the question whi ch was asked by the Honourable Member for ste . Rose that there are roughly at least 4, 000, and they vary from four, five and six personnel thousand that are casual - casual employees of the province . As I mentioned earlier the Civil Service is not concerned with this unemployment insurance but the figure varies in casual help -- it ranges -- some years it has ranged from four to six or seven thousand. So it covers quite a number of individuals. MR. MO LG AT : I appreciate now .

Is the change there largely due to the increase in the personnel or is it -- what part of it is due to increase in personnel and what part of it is due to the 'increase in the rates charged by the Unemployment Insura!1ce Commission? MR. THOMPSON : According to my information the increase in rates is the cause of the increase in the item . MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, •. ••..•.... ..... .. there 's the budget over-expended already even before we pass it. Mr.

Chairman, I was just going to make one comment insofar as the -- is it under this item that the salaries for the casual help in the sessions are paid out of or is that in the Asse mbly? MR. THOMPSON : That's in the session. MR. PAULLEY: Fine. Page l416 March lOth, 1960

MR. CHAIRMAN: (2) passed MR. CAMPBELL: (2) of what one, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: That's (2) of {

a) in item 2- the suppl ies. (b) 1- Government House . MR. CAMPBEL L: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to make some remarks and ask some questions in tbis regard. More than once I have.i n the last two years, I have protested, if that's the right Viord, and seriously about the fact that the form of t..ne estimates have been changed. Now change is not necessa rily wrong and !'m not against it per se, but I tbink it's a mistake to change the form of the estimates unless it leads to giving additional information or makes the item under discus sion more clear.

And I would like to ask the Honourable l' liinister what is the reason for the change in this case because for the last two sets of estim ates that we have , the last one of the former government and the first one of the prese nt govern� ment, we showed this item, Maintenance of Government House, as (a} Salaries; 1. Regular staff; 2. Lieutenant-Governor's staff allowance; then (

b) an item for shrubs , plants, etc . - that's not the one I'm discus sing, it's the -- here instead of showing it in that way we now show it -S alaries and Staff Allowance

(2) Supplie s, expens es, equipment ai"ld renewals . My complaint, Mr. Chairman, and it is a complaint, is that this is a change that does not give additional information. In fact I think it instead fails to disclose the L'lformation and that a change of that nature should not be made . 'What was wrong with the former way of showing this matter, and I'm not talking about the supp lies, expenses, equipment and renewals item ?

If it's preferred to not go into all the detail that was there before then I have no objection to that but my contention is that the way it was shown before , in the estimates that we had prepared and in the ones that, the first ones that were prepared by the pres ent government, was the right way. It gave the correct information and that being the case, why change? Then I have the other comment to make, Mr.

Chairman, because I've been mentioning this item, this point, on quite a few occ asions and I think it's one that we properly keep bring ing to the attention of the government, that is, the tendency to increase the costs of govern ment. As I figure tbis one out there's som ething of the nature of a 22 1/2% increase in this item as against the one of two years ago. Now I ask the government if that is necessa ry. I ca.. 'l understand some increase in the salaries of the perm anent staff, but what is the ju stifica tion for increases in other regard:?

And I' d like to hear what the Minister has to say particu larly for the change in the form of the estimate that's put before the committee . � MR . THOMPSON : Mr. Chairman, the salary figure wbich I have for "59-60 is $16, 260 . ! thi.'lk this salary figure is not the -- the one on the left -- is not the total for that item . There was an additional vote I understand in connection with that salary item in last year's es timates as with other salary increases as shown on page 30 of the estimates of last year. So that the actual increase there is $55 -- $55 in salaries.

Now regarding the change of form, this particular form was considered to be more concise and there's certainly no objection at any time to giving any honourable member the details of that item - $16, 315, which is an actual li1crease of $55 ove1· last year, which includes the Lieutenant-Governor's staff allowance of $8, 000; Secretary to the Governor $4, 335; the Gardener of the premises $3,4 80, and holiday and sick relief $500, making a total o� $16, 315.

Now as I say, it seems to me that the informa tion is available at all times and I don't tbink the change wbich was mentioned by the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition is designed in any way to not give out full information. MR. CAMPBELL: ......•...... • Mr. Chairman, is that-- if it' s just for the sake of conciseness I don't see the benefit of changing it to salaries and staff allowance . My contention is that the year before it was properly shown in regular staff and then the Lieutenant-Governor's staff allowance, because I believe that's what it is .

Is that not correct, and if that's the way it is then why change, that's my point? As far as the increase in the total amount is concerned, the figure two years ago was $15, 780; it's now $19, 315. I make that a difference of $3, 535 . I still say that's approximately 22 1/2%. Now -(In terjection)-- Yes . Then there is of course included in that the thousand dollars extra as compared to two years ago in the item of Suppli es, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals .

Why, I don't think this question was raised the occasion of the last estimates, I'd like to know why the increase was necessa ry or is nece ssa ry now in that item . MR. THOMPSON : There is no increase in the Suppl ies, Expenses, Equipm ent and Renewals . March lOth, 1960 Page 1417

MR. CAMPB ELL: Compared with two years ago? MR. THOMP SON: Oh , compared with two years ago, I haven't the figure here for two years ago. · I lmow that the figure of three thousand which is in the current estimates is made up of certain items. Furniture and repairs 1, 300; plants and shrubs 300; water, light and gas 750; printing, stationery, telephones, telegrams, miscellaneous 650; or a total of 3, 000. And the heating of course for the building supplied by the Central Power house, and the cost is not charged to this particular vote . MR. CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman, what I was asking you is why, and I am comparing with two years ago because those are the last estimates that we prepared and I'm naturally interested in comparing the way the present government operates its various businesses compared to what the other government did. And as I estimate it there's 22 1/2% i.:ncrease in this particular one and the Lieutenant-Governor is paid, of course, by the Federal Government, not by us .

But the fact that he receives a residence, a very fine re sidence, benefit of the tax payers of the Province of Manitoba, that he gets heat, light, water and all of these things supplied, I am wondering why the increase is necessa ry and particularly the increase of $1, 000 in the Supplies, Expenses and Renewals . MR . THOMPSON : ........... of course was effected last year not this year. I have no information on hand to explain the difference . MR. CAMPBELL: If the Honourable the Minister would get it later it would be quite satisfactory to me, Mr. Chairman . MR. GUTTORM SON: Mr.

Chairman, the Lieutenant-Governor is driving a new car. Who pays for that? Does the government of the province pay for that or who pays for that ? MR . THOMPSO N : I understand it' s the expense of the Province of Manitoba. MR. GUTTORM SON : Is this a new policy? MR. THOMPSON : I think not. MR. GUTTO RMSON : Pardon ? MR. THOMPS ON : I don't lmow of any change in that policy. MR. GUTTORMSON : I believe that the previous government never bought the car for the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I want to make that perfectly plain .

As far as the previous government is concerned we did not supply a car to the Lieutenant-Governor. I understand that the government now does supply the car. Is that correct ? MR. THOMPSON : I think that's correct and I am sorry if I- - I had the impression that it was always the case but I think it's correct that the province now supplies it, but I'll have to have that confirmed, that information. MR . GUTTO RMSON : Well, what about the operating el>'Penses of the car, like the gaso line and so on ? Does he pay for that or does the government pay for that? MR .

THOMPSON : I am not too familiar with the Governor 's car . I'll have to get the information on both the up-keep and the initial cost. MR. GUTT ORMS ON : Mr . Chairman, last summer when Her Majesty was here, a function was put on at Government House and a number of persons were invited. Does the government share in the cost of that expense? MR. THOMPSO N : I don't think this_ department shared in the cost of that expense . Not to my lmowledge . MR. GUTTORMSON: Did any department of the government share in that cost? MR. EVANS: Mr .

Chairman, I'd say -- I'd better not answer that, I am not sure enough in my own mind. I had something to do with the arrangements at the time, but I am sure I can find out. This is the dinner you are referring to, the one that was given at Government House . Well, I won't undertake to answer off the bat, at this moment. _I 'll get some information for the. honourable member . MR. GUTTO RMSON : Did the government have any participation in the guest list that was prepared for that occasion? MR. LYON : The answer is no . Let' s get off public ....... and onto Public Works. MR.

CHAIRMAN : (c) (c) (1) passed. (2) passed. (

c) passed. (d) (1) passed. MR. THOM PSON: Yes 11, 11. MR. CHAIRMAN : (d)

(1) Page 1418 March lOth, 1960

MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, ••••. (d) . I have noted over the past number of years that this is an ever increasing amount in particular for the item number 2 which as I take it, include s the amount paid for rental s. I am wondering if the Minister woul� be kind enough to inform the Committee as to the rentals paid for the auxiliary buildings in Winnipeg for the informa tion of the Comm ittee. And further to that, as I understand when the new government building is completed that there will be a number of these locations or buildings under rental that the staff will be moved into the new building .

Now, I wonder if the Minister could tell us, and he ma y not be able to give it to us in any great detail, but how ma ny of the auxiliary buildings now being rented by the province will be able to be -- the staffs absorbed from those buildings into the new provincial buildings and what are the terms of the leases in respec t of those buildings ?

Are we fa ced with a situation in respec t of some or all of them whe re there is a lease- term agreement that notwitstanding the fact of soon being able to get into our new building, that we will be still forced under lease agreement to continue pa ying rent for these auxiliary buildings or some of them ? MR. THOMPSON : Yes, Mr . Chairman, we expect to be able to dispose of the use of ce rtain government buildings now required after the new building is ready for occupatio n. ln fact there will be some that are owned by the province which will, 'I expect, be disposed of.

So they'll be put up for sale because they will not all be required. Now I am not just sure of any amounts or any leasing. We have had occ asion, I know, to take on some additional rental space in the past while but I am not sure of the. buildings which are leased now which will be no longer required. I wouldn't be able to give any information on the length of the lease or what particular building will not be needed after the new one begins opera tion . I haven't a breakdown -- did you ask for the total rentals paid by the province for? MR. PAULLEY: •..•• ....•....• MR. THOMPSON : Yes I can give you a breakdown .

For each building? MR.· PAULLEY: If you haven't it available at the presen t time, rather than --- MR. THOMPSON : I have it, not in the total figure; I have it on various items throughout each of the buildings which are gral<ted by the province or owned by the province. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, if the Mi:nister would undertake to hiwe the various buildings listed with the rental being paid at the pres ent time and the term of the lease, and also if it would be in order to indicate which buildings that are governm ent owned at the present time that ma y be disposed of.

Now I don't know whether policy would permit that in order to give anybody an adv ant age over -- eyeing situation over, or not in respec t of buying the build ings but as far as I am concerned if the Minister would underta ke, and I think he can insofar as the lease term is concerned of the buildings that are now being rented in addition to the am otmt of rent being pa id . And also a list of the government owned buildings whe re the staff will be absorbed into the new building, I'd app reciate that very much . MR.

THOMPSON : I can certainly give you the rental s, this evening if neces sary, but they are spread over quite a few pag es . I can dig them up. But on the question of whether we should announ ce a list of buildings which will no longer be required and which will be for sale, I think it would be against public policy at the prese nt time to do that , until they are actually adve rtised for sale . MR. PAULLEY: .•.. •....... do not underta ke to give me list of the rentals and the term leases on those which you have . Thanks . MR. CAMPBELL: .... ....... . MR. MOLGAT : And also I notice here, Mr.

Chairman, that in the past this item always read maintenance and rentals, or at least rentals was mentioned, now it' s been specifically removed and I would gather from comments of the Minister that this does still cover the rental s. MR. THOMPSON: That' s the rentals right here . MR. MOLGAT : Now there is a very substantial increase there, Mr. Chairm an, both in the salaries and in number 2 item . Could the Minister explain particu la rly the number 2, how come there is that much of a rise? MR. THOMPSON : I am afraid I would have to give you the total . .... ..•..

The reason, no doubt, would be that we have five -- there are five new buildings required. Five new buildings rented in the last year . MR. MOLGAT : ••..•...... those are , and if he has the rental of them . Ml.rch lOth , 1960 Page 1419

MR. THOMPSO N : Yes, the Ingram and Bell Building; the office building, 545 Bro adway ; Power Building, Portage Avenue; 19 1 Lombard Street; and an office building at 116 Edmonton Stre et. Now tho se will no doubt be the cause of the increase in that item . MR. FROE SE : Are the rental values based on the floor space, or on what basis are they calculate d? MR. THOMPSON : I believe that the ren tals. are norm ally, and probably they might be based on floor space but they're normally a matter of negotiation between the landlord and the tenant, which is the provin ce . MR.

MOLGAT : I assume that the se new buildings are required to hou se all the new civil servants that my honourable fri ends have hire d. MR. THOMPS ON : Mostly the ones you hir ed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. passed; 2, passed; E. passed. F. (1) salarie s. MR. THOMPSO N : •...• •..•... Winnipeg there 's 35 in that item . Yes, it' sunder E - Buildings outside Grea ter Winnipeg. MR. CHAIRMAN : F. passed . G

(1) Sal arie s. MR. MOLGAT : Mr . Chairm an, we haven't got F. yet and also I notice there a sub stantial decrease in F. (2) . Could the Minister explain it? MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood) : Mr. Chairman, I wonde r if the Minister would give us all the salaries and then we wouldn't have to stop him as we go along. MR. THOMPSON: Yes, there are 12 salaries in this item F, and the major decrease here is because the item for fuel has been gre atly red uced. There has been a conversion from coa l to oil and a new boiler which re sults in a tremendous saving in the cost of fuel . MR. MOLGAT : Was there no considera tion, Mr.

Chai rman, at that time of a change to gas ra ther than oil now that the area is supplied with natural gas and my understanding is that there is a very substantial saving on the use of gas as compared to either coal or oil. Now if we were going to make the change should we not have considered that ? MR.

LYON: As one who used to be an habituary of the Law Courts Building along with some other lawyers, I know that there was a big hole over by the end of the Power House Building for a good number of months and I think, unless I'm mistaken, that this conversion started, and I'm speaking only from reco llection, I thin_]{ it started in the time of the former government at which time -- I know that there were big tanks lo-wered into this hole as I saw in my daily trots back and forward fr om my office to the Law Courts Building -- I couldn't speak for what was going on at that time though about the conversion. MR.

CHAIRMAN : G(2 ) passed; (3) passed; Gr;: assed. H (1) salar ie s. MR. THOM PSON: I would imagine -- I notice that there' s an increase in the $30, 000 - $29,4 00 . Oh, part of the -- the re was an increase in rate s under the new a,rrr eement with City Hydro which is the cause of some of the increase in that item . I haven't the exact figur e, the break down on that . My informa tion says that the new agreement with City Hydro provided for a rate incr ease . MR. CHAIRMAN : G. passed. H • ... MR.

MOLGAT : From the comments of the Minister, does the .......•..... garage take care of all the utilities as well as the str aight civil service ? MR. THOMPS ON: No, no . MR. MOLGAT : Well, does it take care of the Hydro vehicles then, or when he sa id new arrangemen ts for rates with the Hydro what did he mean? MR. THOMPSON: I'll have to get that inform ation on that matter respe cting the rate increase to the City Hydro and tie it in with the other question . MR. CHAIRMAN : H.

(2) MR. THOM PSON : Salaries of 19 . MR. CHAIRMAN : Is that the salaries on .. You got the salarie s. H. Passed. I. (1} Salarie s. MR. THOMPSON : Salaries are 27 . MR. CHAIRMAN : (2) passed; (3) passed; I. passed. J. Salarie s. MR. THOMPSON : 19 . MR. CHAIRMAN: (l} passed; (2) passed; (3) passed; J. passed. K. salarie s. MR. THOMPSON : Salaries are 36 . Page 1420 March lOth, 1960

MR. CHAIRMAN: (1} passed; (2) passed; K passed. L

(1) Salaries. MR. THOMPSON: Five. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1) passed; (2) passed; L. passed . M.

(1) Salaries . MR. THOMPSON : Four. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1 ) pa ssed; (2) passed; M. passed. N .. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr . Chairman, on M. (1) , did I hear the Minister correctly when he said four salaries th ere for $42, 000 ? MR. THOMPSON : Our four regular employees -- there are a number of provisional workers . I haven't the figure on labourers, gardeners, etc . , except the total which is $32, 250 so that the other salaries are the difference . There are several part time workers in this con<"lection. MR. CHAIRMAN: N. (1) passed. MR. MOLGAT : Mr .

Chairman, on general mai. 'ltenance, I believe th ere used to be the Provincial Architect; now, is th ere still a Provincial Architec t and if so, who is it at the moment? MR. THOMPSON: Yes we have a Provincial Architect, Mr . McPher son. Total salaries here are $18, 000 . MR. CHAIRMAN: (3) passed; N. passed. Resolution 63 - Operation and Maintenance of Government Buildings, $2, 13 6, 372. Passed. Appropriation 3 -H ighways, Aids to Municipal ities and Public Works (a) 1. MR. REID: ••.•...... highways I was just wondering now, the perimeter highway -- I know how much construction has been done on it this year .

I was just wondering about the bridge between Municipality of North Kildonan and West Kildonan -- I was wondering -- it would be an opportune time in the winter time to start construction on it, or is there an appiropriation in for it for this year or next year, or when, because after all when the highway comes to the river and you can't get across it, .it's not much use of a high way, and I see it's pretty well graded up there but I don't see any bedwork done on a bridge th ere , or any start, or attempt -- I was just wondering if the lVIinister knows anything about that bridge between North Kildonan and West Kildonan on the perimeter high way, or will it be constructed this year or next year, or any information on it .

MR. THOMPSON: Well, I think probably we sh ould take a look at that when the program is submitted. I wouldn't be able to say at thi s time whet her it's proposed or not. MR. REID: Mr . Chairman, it's a matter of neces sity. What I mean, you've got a road leading to the river and you' ve got to cross the river so the bridge has to be there . I was just wondering when it is going to be -- (Interjection) -- jump across . That's the only information I wanted, Mr .

Chai rman, whether it was goi11g to be built this year or ne:h't year . (Interjection) Well , not any trouble getting across, but you couldn't get across -- you ca.'l get across on the ice now I believe, but in the summer time you wouldn't be able to get across . MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, we have had some discussion on the No . 4 highway from Gladstone to Neepawa. It was referred to by one or two members previously and I, too, am a little concerned about the condition that it was left in for the winter months . And it was interesting to me to note an

article in the Neepawa Press of about a week ago when the Honour able the First Minister and the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs, they both made a trip to Neepawa a week ago last Saturday and both of them referred to the road as the "rocky road to Dublin"-- that 's quoting both of the m in the Neepawa Press, It is passable, I will admit that, but when the Honourable the First Minister and the Honourable the Minister of MUI'..icipal Affairs refer to it as the ''rocky road to Dublin" you can imagine that it isn't in very good sha pe .

Now it is going to be bad in the spring and th ere' s no getting away from that . Last year durL'lg the construction of it, it was completely closed off for a considerable length of time; the traffic was completely closed off and as a result of that, the traffic had.t o seek detours on either side of the road. One road in particular that took a terrific beating was the Carberry road and I think the Honourable the Minister knows what road I refer to whe n I say the Carberry road. It is a stretch of road, it is classed as a se condary high way, about 26 miles in length and leads on to Number 1 highway .

Now I know the Honourable the Minister is quite familiar with it because about two months ago a delegation from some thr ee municipalities, from the Town of Neepawa and the Town of Carberry �d myself, met in his office with him and the March lOth, 1960 Page 1421

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd) .••.. purpose of that meeting was prett-y well to decide what was going to be done next year as regards to condition of the Carberry road. I think, as a result of that meeting, that we were told the following; No . 1, that it would be maintaine d lOO% by the government so long as it was being used as a detour; and No . 2, that once the detour signs were taken down that it would be put back in its original condition, that is , as it was on May 1st, 1959 .

And then following that , that a traffic count would be ma de to determine the amount of traffic that goes over it and if the traffic count was heavy enough that we could make applica tion for it to become either a lOO% road or a provincial trunk 1-Jghway . Previous members have mentioned traffic counts and I feel Mr . Chairm an, that this does determine to a great degree whethe r the government should assume lOO% responsibility on som e of the roads . I don't know how a municipality qualifies for a lOO% road.

I dcn1t know what the difference is between a lOO% road and a provincial trunk highway, but either one would do us because I understa nd that both of them are paid for lOO% by the provincial government. I would also like to know what is the policy of this government as respects the detour roads that are used as such when the main trunk highways are tmder construction, beca use it is a concern to the muni cipalities. A lot of this heavy traffic goes over roads a mile south or a mile north or a mile east or a mile west of the road under construction , and it simply chews the municipal roads all to pieces .

I think that it' s only fair to ask the provincial government to assume the cost of the damage done to the se municipal roads . And then again, Mr . Chairm an, just last Saturday when I was home for the weekend, I had a farmer come in to see me who lives on the new No . 4 highway , and he said that the dust hazard was so great last year that he really couldn't see his buildings from the highway at times .

In fact he suggested that the gravel and clay dust, if the wind was in the right direction, was so heavy that it was killing all the garden; in fact he suggested it was simply no use in putting a garden in this year unless the government intended to use chloride, water or oil on the highway while it was under construction to keep down the dust . I wonder what the government intends to do in that particular regard? MR.

THOM PSON : When our policy with respect to the road which you mentioned is as he stated, that we will maintain the road while it is being used as a detour , and we will put it back into the shape it was in before it was taken over . I th ink I can say that that is the policy of the department with respect to roads which are required for detours when other trunk highway s are under construct ion. Regarding -- I'm unable to state any pa rticular policy on the question of whether the road he mentioned should be oiled or not . I'm sure tho se matters can be given conside ration. MR. CHAIRMAN: · (a) 1- pass ed. MR.

MOLGAT : Usually we received from the Minister this complete descriptive prog:;."am for next program . Now one of the members asked about that later . Did I understand the Minister to say that we would be receiving it under this item ? MR. THOMPS ON: No, I intended it -- I said under highways, I intended to mean by that Item 3 (j) , excuse me 3 (i) . No, I intended it further on . I had the impression that -- oh, provincia l trunk highways , that covers maintenance . It can come in now if you wish or at that item , whichever you ..... . MR. MOLGAT : I think Mr .

Chairman, it would be the best if we could get it under the administra tion and operation which is the general item under highways . If we could have the program then it would facilitate the discuss ions of the commi ttee. MR. THOMPSON : I shall ask those within the sound of my voice if they'll kindly arrange distribu tion . item ? MR. CHAIRMAN : 1. MR . MO LGAT : Mr. Chairman, I think we're waiting , are we not, for the ..... MR. CHAIRMAN : (b) 1- passed. MR. THOMPSON : Could we move on to the -- do you wish to hold that one till the next MR. CHAIRMAN : 2- pass ed. MR. MOLGAT : Mr .

Chairm an, could the Minister explain what is done under that item of laboratory and materials? What type of work are they doing? There 's been an expansion there I see in the program , judging from the additional salaries, what are they doing? MR. THOMPSO N : I mentioned that , this afternoon I believe , and explained the work Page 1422 March lOth, 1960

(Mr. Thompson, cont' d) .•••. briefly of that division . They're responsible -- I think you'll reca ll that I mentioned there was an increase in this item because there are certain per sonnel adde d to the staff. The materials

section is responsible for inve stigating, testing and .inspect ing various ma terials used in the construction and maintenance of highways . And for adv lsing on methods and procedure s and equipment partaining to the efficient use of those materia ls . It' s the resea rch branch which -- I think I de alt with that -- I don't know whether the honour able member was in the House or not, I mentioned the information I' d received from other pa rts of the continent and so on and the work they were doing, generally investigating and testing and inspe cting with regard to materials and new methods and so on in road construction. I vffi. CHAIRMAN: (c)

(1) MR. lVIOLGAT: Mr. Chai rman, I believe that we now have the statement from the Minister. Now, would the Minister propose to go through this with the committee ? I think it' s the normal procedure , because it' s very difficult for us to be reading this by ourselves and then discussi ng other items \vith him at the sa me time . MR.

CAMPBELL: If-the Minister would follow the proced ure that his predecessor did on two other occa sions, I think it is helpful to the committee if he would read the program onto the record so that it' s in Hansard as well as just in this form, and while I' m making that suggestion, Mr. Chai rman, could we have the mileag es? I see that they're not given in all cases here , perhaps -- I think they are in the most of them . MR. THOMPSON : ••... proced ure . I'll prese nt the list which is the scheduled projects for the year 1960-61 on highway construction. MR. LYON : I wonder if this could be not taken Mr.

Chai rman, as read, with the concurrence of the House if the copy is handed to the stenographers, could it be reproduced in Hansa rd without the lVIinister having to read through sheets which we have in front of us, unless questions are going to be ask ed. MR. HRYHORCZUK: I would think-- say, Mr . Chairman, that if we want to go through these items that we alm ost have to have them read here so that we can take -one alter another. Their appea rance in Hansa rd isn't going to facilitate matters any. MR.

CAMPBELL: I think the point is that the Minister will want to make some comm ents on them as to detail as he puts them on the record. MR. CHAIRMAN: ....... item by item . MR. THOM PSON: I'm not convinced that it' s necessa ry in view of what has been said, to read every item, unless the honourable g·entlemen insist. I have no objection. But the list is in front of us and we can have it placed in Hans ard. I don't think that in reading the list that I would stop and make any particular comment on :m individual road; the remarks are include d in the

schedule which is before you . Now if you wish to have it inserted in Hansard as is with out reading the ....•.. MR. CA\\1PBELL: Whate ver meets the Minister's wishes except that before we will be in a position, spe aking for myself, before I will be in a position to discuss the program I would have to have some time to look it over . If the Minister would be prepared to have this item stand or some of these items stand, so that we can look this one over before we proceed with- finalize these estima tes, then I'd be quite prepared that it be placed on the record.

I would like to see it in the Hansard but if it could be taken as read, provided we have some time to look it over . MR. EV ANS: Mr. Chairman, it does seem to me that we might well save the Minister the trouble of a me chanical reading of this list merely for the purpose of placing it on Hansard. I think also that it' s a reasonable request that time should be given to learn what' s in the list before making comm ents on that and the Minister is agreea ble to leaving an- item open for this purpose to be returned to la ter on.

I take it that this item would be then the first on the agenda the next time we meet in Com mittee of Supply and we would go through this list and that would be the only item left open if indeed we. finish the rest of these es timates tonight. Is that your understa nding? MR. CAMPBELL: Just the one thought that occurs to me, Mr.

Chairman, that I don't know what the HonOt!rable the Minister's intentions are, but I would think that wlien he came to the sec ond item on here, it' s a pretty important one, Portage la Prairie base and bituminous ma t, additional lai).�;JS, I presume that that's pr etty well sel f-expla natory. (sup pose it me ans March lOth, 1960 Page 1423

(Mr. Campbell, con t'd) •.... widening the present pavement through the City of Portage la Prairie and something would be the same on some of these others , .but I would thlnk that when he would come to one such as the Pembina overpass, perhaps, he would wartt to mention the state that that particular work is in now . That the same might be true with Red River Bridge that he might at this time want to refer to the rem arks that I have made wi...th regard to the slow progress on the perimeter route in general h\ilcause• this· seems to deal with exactly the sections that I was mentioning this afternoon.

Now, I would think that on the next page that perhaps on some of these contracts or projects at least that the Mini ster might wa.11t to tell us exactly the condition that the road or the work or the former contract is in and make those explanations as he went along . Because I am sure that some of this, as he said, is an over lapping with the program already under way.

For insta nce, the number 5 that we're mention ing, Number 5 highway, I suppose that the completion of the contracts that I was speaking about earlier today, I would like to know, if the Minister has the inf ormation, as to how much of that work has been done on the 18. 5 miles and 19 .7. The inf ormation here is base and bituminous mat with completion of.contract . The same on the item just above that , Number 4 west, 28 miles Shoal Lake to Foxwarren base and .bituminous mat completion of contr act. ·I said this afternoon that I thought none of that was done . If I am wrong in that I'd like to be corrected.

I think it's not -- MR. EVANS : A point of order, Mr. Chairm an. I wonder if we should decide what we' re going to do. MR. CAMP BELL: Well, that's quite the thing that I was suggesting that the Minister mi ght put his comment s on record at thi s ti me . MR. THOMPSON : I think the best procedure would be to hold an item open and give members a chance to read this over . MR. CAMPBELL: O.K. MR. CHAIRMAN : Then the other suggestion was that then when we sit again this would be the first it em . MR.

EVANS: .. .... an item open for questions to do 'llith this list and that that would then become the first ite m when we meet in Committee of Supply again and we will proceed and perhaps finish with the rest of the Department of Public Works tonig ht . MR. CHAIRMAN : That all comes in under that . MR. E;,VANS: Item 3 (

a) to stand . MR. CHAIRMAN : .....•.. (b) . (b) (1) ,

(2) Salarie s. MR. THOMPSON : Yes, there are 19 . MR . CHAIRMAN : (

b) passed. (c)

(1) Salarie s. MR. PAULLEY: Mr . Chairman, surveys -- tit les

section . Is this -- or due change in transfer of re sponsibility; am I out on this one, insof ar as the surveys a.YJ.d title s in connection with the proposed floodway ? Would that be covered in the Department of Conser va tion rather than here? Well then, in connection with this has the survey been completed on the Ea st Perimeter Road from the Trans -Canada Highway east to link up with the northern perimeter road? I am thinking of the area just to the east of the Town of Tra ns cona to link it up with the south perimeter road. f.[as the department completed its surveys and ob tained the nece ssary titl es for right-of-way in respec t of that

section of the perimeter road ? MR. THOMPS ON: What

section would you --- How would that be described? MR. PAULLEY: Well I think, Mr. Chairma n -- Mr . Minister, roughly it would be from the Trans-C anada Highway ea st going north . Now, how it would be describe d (In terjec tion) - No, not , it 's not Highway 59 . It' s the east perimeter road from the Trans-Canada on the east side of the new Symington Railway yard, to link up with 15. lt' s out that way. MR. THOMPSO N : The entire piece of road to which you refer would be running ii1 a northerly direct ion . MR . PAULLEY: Yes, northerly ea st of Trans cona. MR . THOMPSO N � Yes, some preliminary survey work has been done on that

section of the highway. No construction has been undertaken but survey work has been done . MR. PAULLEY: Have all of the rights- of-ways been purchased, do you know, Mr. Ministe r? Page 1424 March lOth, 1960

MR. THOMPSON : No, I think not . I don't think the rights-of-ways have been purchased. MR. CHAIRMAN:

(1) Passed. 2 (

c) Passed. (d)

(1) MR. REID: Mr. Chairman, under (d) (1) . I guess that' s where I should have brought the item up because I see it's an increase there of $20 ,0 00, so that must be an increase of staff and apparently, I don't know if the Minister has the information, but it's an increase of staff at $20, 000 so it must .... .•• some information oii bridges . If you know the old saying, 'Burn ing your bridges behind you", but possibly the Minister would answer under this one about bridges, the question I asked before. MR. THOMPSON : The salary increases -- 3, I believe . 27 salaries in this -- you're on (

b) on bridges? MR. REID: Yes. MR. THOMPSON: 27 salaries. The salary increase of $16, 820 according to my figures. The increas es, I believe, result from not only additional persons, but reclassification of a number of the staff. (Interjection) On surveys ? 20, 20 employed. 20 on the staff. MR. HILLHOUSE : What was the increase, Mr . Minister, on surveys over last year? MR. THOMPSO N : On surveys? There is no increase. MR. HILLHOU SE: Are you still having the same trouble with bottlenecks as we've had in the past? MR. THOMPSON: With who? MR. HILLHOU SE : Bottlenecks . MR. REID: This staff here .

Actually what are the duties of this staff for the bridges? I mean do they just use them for survey? They don't use them for construction . I was just wondering what they actually do. I mean, if they have an increase of that many members on a staff just for survey, well it must be an expensive survey program and I don't see the work being done and I am just wondering what actually is done . MR. THOMPSON : On the bridge department? Well, they are the engi neers which run the show in connection with bridge work.

We have in the department in that &vision 6, 9 -- 16 engineers, and 5 draftsmen, and 2 other additional, divisional engineers, a total of 18. The other staff is purely -- clerical -- 4 clerks . The bulk of the department are engineers who are in charge of bridge construction in Manitoba, not only for the province but they assist the municipalities throughout the province. MR. REID: •.•.. .... everything, like the Minister says , they are engineers, and they have draftsmen.

I was just wondering when you ca ll for tenders for a bridge it's designed, or these engineers design the bridge or -- they design the bridge --- . Well I can understand they design -- when you buy a bridge or call for tenders -- it' s outfits like Dominion Bridge, they're the people that design the bridge . And these engineers just probably look over the plans ; I don't know, but it seems to be a large staff to me for just bridge construction or surveys. MR. MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairm an, under the bridge items, does the Minister want to discuss bridge construction at this time or does he want to leave that for discussion---? MR. THOMPSON : I didn't hea r that . Discuss -- MR. MOLGAT : Well, my question here , Mr. Chairman, has to do with a newspaper

article that appeared in the Tribune in July. It says, "o ttawa may aid bridge building" . "Requests of provinces wishing federal aid for bridges in connection with roads to resources will be given a consideration by the government, Resources Minister Alvin Hamilton said Saturday.

It was an apparent extension of federal policy and came after opposition Commons members had called for general application of what was done at Prince Albert, Sas katchewan, where treasury aid was given in the construction of a bridge." Then there is a slight comment here that Prince Albert is Prime Minister Diefenbaker's home town and it's in his home constituency of Prince Albert. But however, Mr. Hamilton went on to say that if a provincial government can show the bridge plays a vital

part in getting to resources we'll be glad to consider it. He goes on to say that Saskatchewan and Prince Albert authorities had asked for help on the Prince Albert bridge decl aring it was a necessa ry

part in clearing a bottleneck of traffic coming south from Uranium City. Well, I am quite prepared to believe that that is the ·c ase but I would suspect that if Prince Albert has such a terrible bottleneck coming up beca use of Uranium City that certainly this same thing would apply to just about any of the bridges on March lOth, 1960 · Page 1425

(Mr. Molgat, con t'd) ..• .•.. Number 10 highway to th'l north and a good number of the other highways in the province with which could certainly be perfectly considered as roads to resources. Anything that we're doing towards the ea st part of our province, except for the arterial type of highway, but the local type of highway servicing forest reserves and so on. Now, has the province made application under thi s, for assistance for bridge construc tion? And have they received agreem ent from ottawa for this? ....••.... Con tinued on next page. _page 1426 March lOth, 1960

:MR. THOMPSON: On the Roads to Resources we certainly have a share agreement with Ottawa not only for the road but for the bridges.

Now I a:;n familiar with the item which the hon ourable member raises and I am sure that we are going to use every opportunity to get a simi lar arrangement on any such bridges as the one to which he refers; but under our existing agree ments the bridges, the same as the road, the FE)deral government pays its half share; and in some cases where" it's a three-way venture, for example, where International Nickel is involved or the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board--a split in those cases with the federal authority is three way; the third party, the Hydro Electric Board we'll say, and the province and domin ion, on bridges as well as the roads ; so we do get the advantage in the Roads to Resources aid in that respect.

MR . MOLGAT : •.••• for example of No . 10 highway which I don't think was considered actually as a Roads to Resources .

As I recall , it was not include d in the program that the Min ister of Mines and Resources gave us last year but surely if a bridge in the city of Prince Albert can be considered as a bridge qualifying for Roads to Resources then I suggest that a bridge over the Overflowing River or one over the Red Deer River on No . 10 highway is certainly in the same category and that with all due respect to the province of Saskatchewan, that this pro vince should share in the bounty of the federal government and make sure that we get our due share.

I would suspect that the fact that Prince Albert could be include d that possibly the Dis raeli bridge, might qualify in the same way because I see pulpwood trucks going over it occas ionally and it seems to be an extension that would fit just as well as the Prince Albert bridge . Now on the matter of bridges as well, if the federal government proceed with their plan for the atomic centre in the Whiteshell, I unde rstand a bridge will be required there . Now roads and bridges to that centre will be the responsibility of the federal government or the responsibility of the provincial , or on a sharing basis ?

Has any discussion, I'm thinking par ticularly of the bridge which I think would be a major factor there , being over the Winnipe g river. MR. THOMPSON: There have been discussi ons in that connection, with the Atomic Energy CommiSsion. There has been no decis ion yet on cost sharing, but the Province of Man itoba will certainly be called upon to do the constructing and the engine ering and it' s anticipated that a share of the cost--the amount of which hasn't yet been decided--will be paid by the federal authority. MR. GUTTORMSON : Mr. Chairman, I see in the project

schedule for this year on No . 6 Highway, bridge and water control structure on the Fairford River, could he indicate just where that bridge is going to go? MR . THOMPSON: That's on the Gypsumville Grand Rapid road, Are you asking where it's going to go? MR. GUTTORMSON : There's a bridge there now, I mean, the bridge certainly isn't a very good one , I was wondering if they were going to rebuilt it in the same location or are they going to move the location to another part of the river? · :MR. THOMPSON: As far as I know, the location is somewhat in the area of the existing structure s.

As far as I know I think it's in that area. :MR. COR BETT: Mr. Chairman, in the past years regarding this question of the Hon ourable Member for Ste . Rose , the Dominion Government shared in the costs of roads that were in the mineralized area on No. 10 highway. I happen to know that from the past. I'm not just familiar with what's going on now but up to Cranberry Portage the province built the road lOO%, and when they got to what they call the mineralized area the federal government shared, I believe 50% , of the cost of the roads . I believe that still applies, but I'm not just sure about it . MR .

GUTTORMS ON: Mr. Chairman , what is the cost of the bridge and water control structure on the Fairford? :MR. THOMPSON: The item in the estimate here , in the list? (Interjection) We are unable , of course , it's not the policy to give the est imated cost of these expenditure s. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I was pleased to learn from the Honourable Member from Swan River that there was participation by the federal on the far north part of No . 10. I must confess that I was not aware that there had been a contribution .

But coming back to my question to the Minister on the--1 think the two major bridges there--the Overflowing.a nd the Red Deer--possi bly the structures that are there now will remain, I don't know. If so well March lOth, 1960 Page 1427

(Mr . Molgat , cont' d.) •... then there 's no problem, but I would think that if there is a major change to be made in the highway , that those structu res will have to be change d as well. Now, surely, if the city of Prince Albert -- if there can be a construction there within that city, is considered a Roads to Resources then the same thing should apply on that type of a highway which is without any question a Roads to Resources .

At the moment , it's our only link with the north once the Gypsumville Grand Rapids one is extended further that will be the second link, but at the moment it is the only link; and I think qualifies if any road does as a Roads to Resources . Now has there been an approach to the Federa l Government in this regard? And if there has been what has been their reply? MR . THOMPSON: No, the re has been no approach to the Federa l Government on the bridges over the rivers which have been mentioned up-to-date not to my knowledge. MR. WRIGHT: Mr .

Chairman , running out of Winnipeg in a northerly and-north-e as terly dire ction, we have highways Nos. 6, 4, 9, and on the east side of the river we have No . 9 and 59 on the east side of the riv er. Now for quite some considerable time there has been a great need for some tie-in between these highways , particularly when you have to come all the way back from the north to go down Logan Avenue to get on No. 6, and in the last couple of years there has been a lot of work going on to join these highways togethe r. Now, it seems now that the railway signals have alrea dy been insta lled.

I think the signals were in almost 6 months before the road was completed. I now see traffic using this gravel road and it appears that it will be ready in the summertime for the hardtop coating and yet I see nothing in the estimates on this list that shows it. Now it would seem very desirable that this short stretch of road should be hard surfaced this summer. Could the Minister tell us why it's not included please ? Because eventual ly, Mr.

Chairman, I take it that--and I'm hoping that in the capital es timate s some mention of a bridge will be the re to tie in across the river with No . 59 to complete the perimete r. MR . EVANS: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , it seems to me that we agreed to hold an item open to consider roads after we have had an opportunity to study the list, which has been submitte d by the Ministe r. At the moment the item we are dealing with is bridges . Now if it would be right to say tha t--perhaps the honourable member's question should be saved until we returne d to this item later on? MR. CHAIRMAN: (b) (2) -p assed.

MR. MOLGAT : Did he give us under (c) . If he did, I'm afra id I didn't get it. MR . THOMPSON: Yes. 27 under (d) , 5 under (e) . MR . MOLGAT : Mr . Chairman , under item (

d) the brid ge matter - there I think has been a controversy going on in engineeri ng circles for some time over the relative quality or advant ages of concrete bridges versus steel bridges , and I see in the newspaper in the month of Janua ry, one of the local concrete firms took a large group of engine ers to Eng land, to see new methods and processes in concrete construction. Were there any provincial engine ers on that trip , and if not , is the government doing any research work into the matter of concrete con struction versus stee l?

As I reca ll it we had quite a discussion in this ass embly here on the subject and the proponents of the concret e side felt that this was a local product , one that was produced here in Manitob a, gave employment here basica lly in the initial stages of the making of cement and then as well in the concrete construction,

whereas in the case of the steel it was a question of importing it in all cases from eastern Ca nada or from other source s, and there was a feeling and I think my honourable friend, the Minister of Industry and Commerce was involved in the discussi on at the time as well. What is the thinking of the department now , and are they making furthe r research? MR . THOMPSON: Mr. Ch air man , I feel that there is some resea rch going on in this respect, but the informat ion, or report on the feeling of the department or the policy as a re sult of that is not in my hands at the moment.

That is something that I will endeavour to get more information on. MR . MOLGAT : Were there any provincial engineers on the trip overseas recently pro- moted by one of the local firms? MR . THOMPSON: Yes, I believe so. MR . MOLGAT : From the provincial department . MR. THOMPSON: I think the re was one . Page 1428 March lOth, 1960

MR. SIDEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, at the last session during the estimates on fublic Works we were given a list of places in the province where they intended to put in railway sig nal lights that is where the railway crossed the various highways. I wonder at what point in the estimates do we discuss that? MR. THOMPSON : I'm not jilst sure if we ••••••• probably planning would be a reason able pl�ce . MR. CHAIRMAN: (d) -p assed; (e) (1), Salaries passed; (2) - passed; (e) -p assed; (f) (1). MR. THOMPSON : 145 MR. CAMPBELL: ••••• Mr.

Chairman, that there's a reduction both in the Salaries and Wages item, a:lso in the Supplies, Exp...--nses, Equipment and Renewals. What is the reason for that Mr . Chairman? MR . THOMPSON : There have been certain re-classifications involving the hiring of new employees at lower grades which made a saving •• , .and the supplies. I have no definite statement of the reason for the saving on the supply item. There is a decrease of $28 , 000- apparently there have been certain realignments which will enable the saving. I haven't any ,detail on that point. MR. HRYHO RCZUK: Mr. Chairman, at that item of (f) (1) .

There is a decrease .in salaries_ of approximately $30, 000 and if my figures are right, there is an increase in person nel of 20. Surely, there must be some other explanation than the one that the Minister just gave us. MR. REID: •••..•••. •• ..• •••• increase. I see it's one of the largest items in there, I was jilst wondering what the purpose of district offices .

The fact that salaries for that item (f), there is one of the largest of the Pllblic Works and the Supply there is quite an amount, that comes to over a million dollars and I was just wondering if the Minister would elaborate after he answers these other questions -t he purpose of these district offices, as I'm not familiar with them . MR. THOMPSON: ..... I have a memo here on the salary cut, $12,000 by savings on ;reclassification and an item of recovery of $24, 000 from the Government of Canada, the Trans Canada Highway and the Roads to Resources .

That• s the only explanation I can give you at the moment on the salary cut which apparently covers most of the ...•...•. MR. HRYHORC ZUK: ••..•. the $30,000 reduction, but where do you get the money to pay the additional 20 employees. And then bearing in mind the salaries a:ll along the line have been gone up again, the increments alone would be considerable on this item, because when you employ 145 persons the increments alone would amount to quite a few thousand dollars. MR. THOMPSON : .. ••..•••.•.• get that information for the committee . MR. CHAIRMAN: (g) (1) •••• MR.

REID: I wonder if the Minister is going to answer that question I asked him about that district offices, because I'm not familiar with that phase of the department. The district office , what it entails, or what it means or - there's quite a large sum there, I'd just like if he'd give a brief explanation of it. MR. THO MPSON: Of course, the district offices are the active operators in connection with a:ll the roads throughout the province . Eight districts in Manitoba are presided over by a district engineer a certain number of staff, some engineers and some laymen.

And they're in charge of their particular division.

For example Division 1 is the area east of the Red River and Division 2 is the area between the lakes and Division 3 is from the Red River west to perhaps not quite as far as the Pilot Mound area, Division 4 is the area from there to the Saskatchewan border and the American border in the south and north to No . 1 highway, Division 5 covers the area north of No. 1 and the Minnedosa, Birtle, Russell area and 6, there's a district engineer at Dauphin, in Division 6 covering the Dauphin, Swan River area and 7 we have the district office now at The Pas which covers the whole northern part of the province ·and then the. 8th Division is the MetropolltanWinnipeg area which is now a district and districts 1; 2, and 3 ha ve.their headquarters and of course the Greater Winnipeg area, the four of them have their headquarters here in this City, 4 and 5 are located at Brandon, 6 as I mentioned at Dauphin, 7 at The Pas.

As I say; the staffs in ·each of these 8 districts of the province are charged with the responsibility of road building and maintenance in their respective areas. March lOth, 1960. Page 1429

MR. HRYHO RC ZUK: Mr. Chairman, is the Minister having any difficulty in getting qualified staff. When I mean qualified I mean graduate engineers . MR. THOMPSON: It is always a difficulty, yes. There's always a problem, there's never a surplus of engineers, there hasn't been to date . MR. SHOEM AKER: Mr . Chairm an, are we now on g? Well this is the point where the Honourable Minister suggested that we should discuss signal ·l ights . About a year ago the then Minister told us that there would be a signal light placed on No . 4 a mile east of Gladstone and one of No . 4, at the West boundary of Neepawa.

Neither of them have been put in, no sign of them being inst alled . I wonder when we migh t expect that the installation of both of those and then again I wonder if the Minister would tell us where they are to be placed in 1960, in addi tion to the 159 program . MR. THOMPSON: I believe I can advise the honourable member that the signals which he mentions will be installed this coming year.· I believe in the second session of the 25th Legislature there was announced here by my predecessor that safety crossi ngs had been loca ted at certain places, and he listed them .

Then there was some more listed on July 20th of last year. I don't know whether you're interested in having this list read. If you'd like to know the area? The list which was presented on the 18th of March, 1959 was the C .P .R. and P. T .H. 3w est of Morden; the C.N.R. and P.T.H. 5a t Ashville; the C.N .R. and P.T.H. l2 east of Ste . Anne; C.N .R. and P.T.H. 15 east of Dugald; C.P.R. and P.T .H. 9, Selkirk by-pass; the C.P .R.· and the North Perimeter Road, Beach Line; the C.N .R. and the West Perimeter Road, Hart Subdivision; the C. N.

R. and the West Perimeter Road, Gladstone subdivision; the C.N .R. and the South Perimeter north of St. Norbert, the C.P.R. and South Perimeter Road north of Grande Pointe . Now all of these have been completed with the exception of the last one which I mentione d. But this one has now been approved . The list was presented on July 20th last year which was recommended for the approval of the House was : Highway No . 10 'at the Village of Ashville; and the C.N.R. and P.T .H. 59, south of Bird's Hill; C.N.R. and P. T .H. 4 south of Gladstone; the C.P.R. Selkirk By-pass out of Selkirk; the C.P .R.

North Perimeter Road, the Winnipeg Beach Line; the C.N.R. and P.T.H. 83 at Scarth; the C.N.R. West Perimeter subdivision at Charleswood, the C.P.R. and P. T .H. 3 west of Morden; the C.N.R. and P. T.H. 13 at Oakvil le; C.N;R. and P. T .H. 13 at Gervais; C.N .R. and P.T .H. 4a t Neepawa; C.P .R. south Perimeter and the Soo Line; C.N.R. and P.T.H. 10, North Brandon; C.N.R. south perimeter east of .......•. .•••• ; C.N.R. and P.T.H . 15 , the Dugald Road at St . Boniface .

Of these the Bird's Hill, Gladstone, Oakville, Neepawa, north Brandon and •. .•.••.•.•..... locations have now been approved, those have been approved . The remainder which I mentioned have already been installed with the exception of the Gervais location which has been delayed. I haven't the reason, I don't think, here why Gervais has been delayed but it has been . But all of those have been installed with the exception of Glad ·stone, Oakvill e, Neepawa, North Brandon, .. .•...••. and these have been approved. They will be constructed very soon . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1- passed, 2- passed. MR. MOLGAT : Mr.

Chairman, I don't know if the Minister wants to discuss this no.v. He gave us what had been planned for last year, does he have a list of what is planned for next year or does he want to discuss that at the same time as we discuss the general constructi on ? ..••..•..••.•. and discuss it with general discussion tomorrow I have no objection to that . MR. THOMPSON: No it' s not my intention , I hadn't considered giving a further list at this time of likely highway signals, but •...• MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I've no objection of discus sing it in here but I think we should get a list .

As I recall it this is a program in conjunction with the Federal government is it not ? MR. THOMPSON: Yes it is. MR. MOLGAT: And as such I think it would be something that in any case the Minister would have because I presume that he would have to have approval from the Federal government before he could proceed with one of these, in which case he must have prepared a list of where he intends to put them so I would im agine it would n't be any difficulty in getting this for the committee and it would be useful to us . But I have objection whatever of doing it under this item . Page 1430 March lOth, 1960 .

MR . CHAIRMAN: G 1, G 2. MR . THOMPSON : That's G- that's 36 . MR . CHAIRMAN: Passed. I-1 passed. MR . MOLGAT: Exactly what does that cover, equipment and tools? MR . THOMPSON: This item covers the garages at, the workshops at certain out-of town spots, such as Dauphin, Swan River, Boissevain.

It's for the provision, repair and replacement of sundry tools and service equipment and including the Winnipeg and the three main workshops at Winnipeg, Brandon, Dauphin and secondary garages at Boissevain and Swan River and it also covers the provision, repair and replacement of handling and service equipment and storage warehouses and yards at these points; such as scales, hand-trucks, pumps, bins,' etc., the cost of which cannot be properly assessed against mechanical units or stores handled. It covers these various workshops . MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, at what stage does the Minister wish to discuss the equipment that is owned and operated by the province, that is the various types of road con struction equipment and so on. I see no item in the estimates unless I missed it. MR . THOMPSON: The equipment, of course, is charged to these various items . It's a self-operating division which charges to each item for road construction here so much rental of course, and it pays for itself. There's no item on it because the items are in here, charged to the various categories of road construction, So there is no item on it.

Maintenance would · be a reasonable spot. MR . CHAIRMAN: (I) - (1 ). MR . MOLGAT : Well then on the matter of equipment Mr. Chairman, as I recall my honourable friend' s predecessor spoke to us many times about the advantages of the province owning its own road construction equipment and the reason he usually gave us for this was that if the province went out and did its work then it •... (Recording difficulties) for by others for work that's being done and yet when we were in office and he was in opposition he used to tell us on many occasions thlj.t is what we should do.

We should have a road construc tion unit or group and then' we would always be able to compare and see if we are getting a good deal or not. Now I would like to know what the Department is doing in this regard now? MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well I'm not altogether satisfied with the Minister's answer to that first question-that the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose gave him about the matter of equip ment and where does it appear. If you look at these various items, you've got -- all you have is salaries and then you have Supplies, Expenses, Equipment and Renewals .

Well, the total sum of these supplies, expenses, equipment and renewals items would hardly pay for a couple of pieces of large equipment. Surely there must be some other way of financing the repurchase of these and replacement and the additional equipment that you're buying. It must appear somewhere. ? MR .

THOMPSON: You have the item Provincial Trunk Highways 2.6 million. and other roads 1. 5; aids to municipalities $226, 000; aids to municipalities including special projects and school division bus routes $4, 370, 000; Works in Unorganized and Disorganized Territory and so on $925, 000; in there is a certain charge for the equipment which is used on the various jobs to do this work. MR . HRYHORC ZUK: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to be stubborn about this, but I feel satisfied that that is not quite the answer, because I'm pretty well acquainted with these items that the Minister just read off and I'm quite satisfied that the answer isn't there. There must be some answer and I would suggest the Minister get the answer for us if he hasn't got it. MR . THOMPSON: I'll be glad to do that. I feel that I'm right in that statement there's a rental charge and it's· charged to the job . . Now does my honourable friend not accept that as a fact? MR.

HRYHORC ZUK: That part but that doesn't cover it all because you have a lot of equipment on repair work on your highways . You have a lot of equipment there· that doesn't come into these items at all but I don't see them any place else . You take your snow removal on the highways and all this type of equipment well where does it appear ? Aside from the rentals you are giving us I quite agree that that is part of it, but that isn't the whole story. MR . THOMPSON: I'll bring in a complete statement on that. March lOth, 19 60 . Page 1431

MR. CHAIRMAN: I. (1) . MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the views of the Minister, however, on this matter of the province doing some of its own roadwork, because as I say this was certainly one of the claims of his predecessor when he was in the opposit�on.

Now his prede cessor'was the Minister of Public Works for a period of some months -- that would be from June ;?1958 ·until approximately November of 1959 and he had ample time during that time to put into action the policies that he was recommending so highly to us at that time . (interjection) No I appreciate he doesn't work here anymore, I would think to your great delight, but that as it ma y, those we:re-{!is recommendations then and he has been the Minister until either October or November and in View of the pressure he use to put" on us in this regard I'd like to know what . he did do.

Did the province go ahead and purchase some road construction equipment; did it set up programs where it did its own construction so as to compare its costs with other jobs that were being done; what extra equipment did you get; exactly what's being done on this pro

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-2-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 2nd hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4e07a5be3715a2729f8b875be5d76c76d200cc03

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