PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 5 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 30, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

March 30 1971 Tape 74 page 1. The House met at 11.00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Presenting Reports of Standing and Select Conunittees; HON. W.CALLAHAN(Min. of Finance): Mr. Speaker, 1 wish to table the report of the Civil Service Commission for the year ending March 31, 1970. ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS: HON.S.NEARY(Min. of Welfare): Mr. Speaker, 1 have the answer to Question No. 310 on today's Order Paper,asked by the hon. member for St. John's East Extern,and the answer is no. MR.HICKEY: A supplementary ques~ion Mr. Speaker. How many homes are presently under construction, could the minister inform the House?

MR.NEARY: I suggest to the hon. member,Mr. Speaker, that he place that question on the Order Paper. ORDERS OF THE DAY: ~IR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, before we move to Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the hon. the Minister of Highways. Is the Hon. Minister aware that at the intersection of the Trans-Canada Highway and the new road to Come by Chance, some person or persons,in open violation of the law,are erecting a large sigh? •~ill he assure the House that this sign will be removed and the law breakers prosecuted forthwith. HON. H.STARKES(Mln. of Highways): Mr.

Speaker, I did n°" take notice of the question.I am not aware of the situation at the present moment. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR.COLLIN!l~ Mr. Speaker, before we get to Orders of the Day I have a question for the Hon. Minister of Connnunity and Social Development. I wonder would the minister advise the House as to when the DREE Agreement is to be si~ned! HON, W. ROWE(Min. of.Community & Social Dev.): Mr. Speake~, I only returned to the Province after being away for a week or so. I do not have all the information necessary to answer that question at the present time. I do hope 311

March 30 1971 Tape 74 page 2. though,Sir, to be able to make a statement on the present DREE Agreement and NEW DREE Agreement early next week, if the hon. member does not mind waiting that long. MR.CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labrador Affairs. Will the Minister give the House information what the total number of persons are,now- employed at Churchill Falls and the Churchill Falls Project,and how many of themwereresidents of Newfoundland and Labrador.before the work commenced,as compared to how many are employed there, who have come there from other Provinces?

There are· many reports that the percentage~of non­ Newfoundland workers are very high. Could the Minister give us that information? MR.SPEAKER: -Order please! I believe that this question is already on the Order Paper>if I am not mistaken. HON. E. WINSOR(Min, of Lab. Affairs): Mr. Speaker, some one asked the question orally the other day but he did not put it on the Order Paper. I take notice of it now and,if it appears on the Order Paper,! will endeavour to answer it. MR.COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, supplementary to the question I asked the Minister for Community and Social Development; in view of the fact that there seems to be a lot of concern on the part of municipalities that DREE~might not be covering street paving programmes,can the Minister indicate to us what the prospects are for street upgrading,streets paving assistance? MR.Rew!: Mr. Speaker, I suggest he put it on the Order Paper. MR.V.EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Hon.

Minister of Fisheries ~ Has the Minister received any representations from the inshore fishermen,on the west side of Fortune BaYi concerning the present operation of herring seiners in that area to the extent that the resource of that area is being rapidly depleted? Over fishing on a very extensive scale is taking place and the fishermen.are in dire danger of damage to their gear,in fact some damage has been done, Has he been notified . and has he taken any action? 312

March 30th •• 1971 Tape no 75 PAGE 1 MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, as the hon. gentleman knows, this is entirely a Federal matter. If the question is put on the Order Paper, I will endeavor to get the answer for the hon. gentleman. MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question, I know that this is a !ederal matter, but it is of great concern to the people of this Province. The minister should take action. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, a question to the hon. minister of Health.

Could the minister inform the House whether the Government plan to have a plebiscite ~n the West Coast of the Province ·to decide where the regional hospital should go on the West Coast and whether a plebiscite is planned to decide whether or not a regional hospital should go in Twillingate and whether or not a plebiscite is planned to decide whether a new general hospital should be built on the Memorial University campus or not7 MR. ROBERTS: Does the hon. gentleman know full well or should know full well that that is an appropriate question for the Order Paper?

If he would be good enough to honour me by putting it on the Order Paper, I will endeavor to get the information for him. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, could the hon. minister tell us when it is planned to colllllll!lnce the holding of the plebiscite in Conception Bay North to decide the location of the hospital that was supposed to go in Carbonear? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is trying to tril.ck and mislead in his usual fashion. No Government decision has been taken. When it has been taken, it will be announced in due course and in the proper manner. MR. CROSBIE: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary question. Does the hon. Minister of Health not realize that the Premier announced on March 22nd., that a plebiscite would be held in the Conception Bay area? Government plicy? Would that not me 313

March30th., 1971 Tape no. 75 Page 2 MR, ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, I am not aware of any announcements by the Premier on behalf of the Government, Of course, if the Premier makes an announcement or any minister makes an announcement, on behalf of the Government, it is Government policy, The hon, gentleman should know, He left the Government on what purported to be a matter of policy and has since Wil.Cldered far and wide, MR. CROSBIE: 22nd? MR, SPEAKER: MR, CROSBIE: Was the hon, gentleman watching on television, March Order please: When the Premier announced there would be a plebiscite? MR.

SPEAKER: Order please: These are questions. The question should not contain information. They should not be done,by implying nor referring to certain matters that have taken place or have not taken place. In answering the question, we must not have speeches. MR, COLLINS: Mr, Speaker, a question for the hon. Minister of Education and Youth, I wonder would he inform the House what plans he has to cope with the serious unemployment problem among students, which will soon be up~on us? MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, to the hon, Minister of Health, I wonder would he advise the name of the construction company referred to in paragraph 59 in the report of the Auditor General and the nature of the hospital construction projects referred to therein? MR. ROBERTS: Mr, Speaker, I have not had an opportunity to see the report of the Auditor General as yet, If the hon. gentleman wishes to add that to the seventy-three other questions that he has on the Order ,aper, they will be answered in due course, Perhaps, he could phrase it a little more accurately than he has been phrasing his questions. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Acting Minister of Labour. Would he tell us or give us any information today on when the report of the Royal Commission on Labour will be tabled. Can he give us some information? 314

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 7S Pege 3 MR. REARY: If the hon. ember would put the question on the Orcler Paper, Mr. Speaker, I would be glad to endeawr to try and get hi• the information. On motion thet the Bouse go into Coad.ttee of the Whole on Supply, Hr. Speaker, left the Chair. MR. NOEL CBAIRHAN OF COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE ON SUPPLY The Reaolution, before the coaaittee is that it is expedient to introduce a meuure to provide for the grantin ·g to Ber Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the public setvice for the financial year ending 31st day of March, 1972, the initial sum of $99,780,000.

The committee has passed ite (S). Shall lta (6), Education and Youth, $26,895 1 000 carry! HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, b~fore ve start to discuss this item, could ve have the minister give us the details of the $26,895,000 expenditure in eccordance with your earlier ruling so that we know vhat the breakdown 1•! 315

March 309 1971. Tape 76. Page 1 -- apb HON. F.W.ROWE (Minister of Education): Mr. Chairman. the Department of Education is responsible 1 1 think,as the Committee knows for spending the largest share of the budget in any one year. Consequently. we are compelled to ask for the largest share of Interim Supply. The total amount being asked for the Department of Education here is $26 million. That figure is not one that was pulled out of a hat.

It was the amount that our officials ,in consultation with the officials of the Department of Finance.estimated we would. need to cover our vital needs. spread over a period of two to three months, and which is ,I might point out Mr. Chairman. the traditional amount. I think only in one year. in one. since 1 have been a member of the House 7have we asked for anything less than approximately three months supply. This again is in the pattern this year.

I do not know that the officials have calculated lt to the last cent for three months, but I think that this amount that they are asking for is designed to cover any probable cost and probable expenditures by the Department of Education,spread over roughly a three month period. I have even suggested 1 Mr.

Chairman, that if we did not need, even if long before or soemtime before the three months expired the full budget is brought down, it is a precaution which I think the Department of Finance and the Department of Education would like to take anyway because. a number of these cheques, a large number of them have to be issued in advance 1 so to speak. I think that the date that our department issues cheques in respect of any month is the fourth day of that month, although the cheques are not designed to be in the hands of,say . the teachers,until the latter part of that month.

These cheques have to go through certain processes and they have to be sent out to Boards of Education, in some cases. boards that are in remote parts of the Province, C.onsequently the Department of Finance insists and rightly so,of course, that before the cheques are issued, that there be necessary authority there. I would suggest to you that even if,in respect of two months period, we would need a three months supply,in order to be covered legally and constitutionally in the issuing of cheques for teachers' salaries and also operational cheques for the Boards of Education and also operational 316

March 30, 1971, Tape 76, Page 2 -- apb cheques for transportation and so on. I am able to give the c0t1111ittee a breakdown of the major items of expenditure here. I could I suppose, get a breakdown for the last cent for the maybe six or seven hundred items there . are under the estimates of the Department of Education. I do not think anybody would want that. I do not think that· that would be-reasonable to expect. How much,for example; of the Department's estimates we will spend on postage alone in respect of any single item over the next two or three months.

By, far the biggest item in the Education estimates is the vote for teachers' salaries, and consequently the biggest item here,in the vote for the Interim Supply, is the vote for teachers' salaries which we estimate, and I might say I did not estimate this, the department of Finance estimates, takinginto account the increase which the Government is pledged to give •" starting from the first of April an increase of which the minimum is twelve. I do not need to go into the figures now. Taking that into account, it is estimated that we would need $11 million for teachers' salaries approximately.

The actual amount estimated is $3,000,670.0~ a month. If we have to be constitutionally covered and legally covered for a three month period, we would, even for two months, we would need to have a three month supply there. That is the largest single item. Another item which is disproportionateiy large in the 1110Uth of April, is that of the mothers' allowance.

The mothers' allowance which hitherto has been $1.50 a month per child attending school for ten months, has now been raised or is about to be raised by Government policy, and we expect and anticipate with the approval of this House to $2.00 a month, and these amounts are sent out to the parents, to the mothers,in two installments, one in the fall for seven months and one the first week of April for three months. The estimate is that we would need $950,000. for ~hose chequea,which will be going in the mail,we hope,next week. $950,000. almost $1 million, that is for April. I aight point out here again,Mr.

Chairman, that we cannot talk about 317

March 30, 1971, Tape 76, Page 3 -- apb a thing like ten percent in respect.,for example, of mothers' allowances for the very simple reason that we send out thirty percent of it in the month of April alone. Another large item is the operational grants to school boards. The estimate is that we will need $3 million for that. These operational grants are standard grants based on a per capita enrollment of pupils in the schools.

Transportation of school children, again these are payments that have to be made regularly to Boards of Education and the estimate is that we would need roughly $1.1 million for that over the next two or three months. AN HON. MEMBER: Are these pai4 monthly or in a lump sum? MR. ROWE~ This goes out monthly now. For ~he College of Trades and Technology, we estimate we will need?to operate that very large institution, something in the order of $750,000. over the next two or three months.

Our training and manpower program, I do not need to elaborate on these, the committee is quite familiar with those programs, $600,000. Our grants-in­ aid to the university,which are also spread over the twelve months of the year~ work out at roughly $1 million a month or a little better than that. We estimate we will need $3 million for that. These again are - some of these grants I want to point out again 1 Mr.Chairman, are paid in advance of the month, so that even though you - over a two month period you would have to make three payments if you were making a payment on the first of the month.

All the other subheads, several hundred of them, the Department of Finance and our officials calculated we would need roughly $1.5 million for all the other estimates that the committee are familiar with. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROWE: That would include all the others, but not the capital grants. I think under Bhysical Education and ~outh, the hon. member is probably thinking of capital grants as well. Under capital we would hope to - we would expect to pass out about $2 million roughly on the erection and equipment of school buildings.

Again, these payments are made regularly to the Denominational Education Authorities, who in turn pass them over to the various boards, where 318

March 30, 1971, Tape 76, Page 4 -- apb relevant, about $2 million for that. Vocational Schools, the construction.and equipment of vocational schools about $660,000. and a few other subheads, small subheads under capital roughly about $180,000, You can think of for example, public libraries, and a few other thing of that kind. AN RON. MEMBER: What was the last amount? MR. ROWE: About $180,000. I left out one large one, and I mention that and I think it will complete the list of the major items, that is the provision and distribution of school supplies.

We hear again, we cannot restrict it, here again we have the falacy of advocating say a ten percent payment. The truth of the matter is, that in respect of school supplies: the bulk of the expenditure takes place in the month of April and May. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROWE: Not at all, where does September come into the picture? We have to order the books from Gage and Co. and Ryerson and so on in February and March. We have to pay in April and September. 319

March 30th. 1971 Tape 771 MR. ROWE, F,W. 1n September, we have to pay for them. MR. COLLINS: Inaudible. PK - 1 MR. ROWE, F.W: We make our payments regularly, as we do to all the others. It is not a question of trusting anybody, it is a question of making the regular payments. MR. MURPHY: If we do not send the money with the order, we have to wait to get the goods in C.O.D. MR, ROWE, F.W.

These goods come in during, these have to come in during the months of April and May, then they are processed so to speak, $1.5 million worth of books,supplies, Anywhere from $1 million to $1.5 million in inventory has to be handled, processed, then segerated, then orders have to be checked from,literally thousands of orders have to be checked against that and the supplies hare to be made up and mailed to the schools or shipped freighted to the schools and be out into the schools well before the first day of September. r do not need to go into that surely.

Well the amount involved here is roughly just over $800,000 for that item as well. And if these are all added up, I think, it will come to approximately $26,895,000, which is the amount we are asking for Interim Supply. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, we congratulate the minister on being the first one to .:.date_ anyway- because even to attempt any kind of explanation of what he wishes the money for, His explanation of why his department wants three months supply, I do not think it is very convincing. The minister's total vote last year 7 on Current Account last year for:·.education,was $82,405,000.

So that the minister is asking now for the House to vote about thirty percent of the total amount that the minister was voted last year to carry on for twelve months. We do not see why the minister should askzfor _this amount of money to be voted like that. Ten percent of what the minister was voted last year, was carrying for a month and a-half 1 and we see no reason why the detailed estimates of expenditure should not be before this House before another 320 I· I I

March 30th. 1970 Tape 77 PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: month and a-half has gone by, or the budget brought down. Mr. Speaker, in the famous Conference that was held in January, the minister said there would be a substantial increase in the MotherS 1 Allowance I that is I that appears in the estimates as Parent .s' Subsidy, a\$1.50 per child per month for each child at school. The minister says in a newsletter that he sent out in February, an_increase im Mothers' Allowances of thirty-three percent would start on the 1st. of April.

Thirty-three percent sounds very, very convincing 1 like a very tremendous amount of money, Mr. Chairman. But, the thirty-three percent in this case is fifty cents per month per .child. So that, if the House approves, and the minister is going to pay it out anyway before the House does approve it, the .minister is going to send out these cheques in April,without first asking the approval of the House on this.That it is the custom of the Govemment. If the House does approve,the Mothers' Allowance is going to amount to the magnificent sum of $2.00 per school child per month for each month the child is at school.

Now what kind of an increase is that? In 1IIY view, Mr. Chairman, if the Govemment is going to have a Mothers· Allowance Program, if the Govemment have got the hundreds of millions that l they say they ~ave,that they stated at the Economic Development Conference, then why are they not raising the Mother's Allowance to s0111ething substantial, not $1.50 per month per child, $2.00 per month per child, but something that will do people some real good, a real basic transfer payment, not an increase of fifty cents per child per month. That means the increase will be $5.00 a year for each child at school.

That is what the increase will amount to~$5.00 for the whole year. If this is a good progra11DDe and there is certainly nothing wrong with transferring money to those most of whom will need it. No means test or anything else. If it is a good progranune why is the minister only increasing it f!fty cents a month. If the minister has unlimited amounts of money to spend tn this field of education, why is not the Government giving this a decent boost? To call it thirty-three 321

March 30th. 1971 Tape 77 PK - 3 MR. CROSBIE: percent is only to try to make it look impressiv .e, when :lt is' ~ot !mpres,Hve. It is piquant• $1.50 Pll!r month per child was piq11ant but now the $2 .oo per month is not much better. Som(! of the money the minister is asking for here is for free teztb.ooks. Is it not the case that in the Budget Speech of 1969 the Government decreased ~he aubsidy on school sµpplies? That tbe Govemment before 1959 was pa,ying seventy-five_ pe.rcent of the cost of school books? 322

March 30th, 1971 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 78 JM - 1 and that in the Budget Speech of 1969 there is an economy measure, the Government reduced the subsidy from seventy-five per-cent to fifty per-cent so that the parents of school children in Newfoundland had to pay in'69 and '70 and this year twenty-five per-cent more for school supplies than th~y had been paying,and now it is announced in the Speech from the Throne.

But before the Speech from the Throne it was announced by the Minister,at this Conference in January and before the Speech from the Throne it was announced by the Minister, .in his Department news letter, the increase,of free text books from kindergarten to grade three and seventy-five per-cent Government subsidy for all text books above grade three. Why did the Minister and his Government reduce this from seventy-five per-cent to fifty per-cent in li96.9 and now, two years later change it again? What has happened to change the Government's mind?

Where has the sudden influx of money come from that permits the Government to change this policy? What kind of a Government is it that reduces a subsidy in'69 and reverses it again in'71? Why has the Government not explained to the House where this windfall of money has come from? Where have these hundreds of millions been discovered that the Government did not have in'67 and did not have in'68 and did not have in 1969 and did not have in'70 and now apparently have in 1971? Would the Minister explain that? MR. CALLAHAN: It is just that the economy is stronger this winter. MR.

CROSBIE: The economy is stronger this winter. Yes and the Government's tax revenues are up that much. It is a funny thing that the Minister of Finance will give us no information on this at all and he will not explain why we have that $103. million dollar deficit this year. Does that show a great increase in the economy? The Minister has not told the House anything. The House has been open now since March 22nd and we have not had a word from the Minister on what exactly the status is of the Government's relationship with teachers.

We know from the teachers that they have said that further negotiations with the Government were fruitless and that negotiations are broken off again. The Government is asking now for $11. million dollars to pay teachers salaries, 323

March 30th, 1971 Tape 78 JM - 2 KR. CROSBIE: the Minister says that includes a twelve per-cent increase. Is it not time the Minister explained to the House what the status of the affair isl !.Bas what the Government offered been accepted by the teachers or not accepted by theml Have negotiations finished on all the other matters . that are involved,apart from money? with the Government? What is the status of the teachers negotiations Surely when the Minister asks for $26. million dollars,it is time ' for the Minister to give us a few words of explanation. · The Minister has not me~tioned, Mr.

Chairman, an announcement that was in November 1970. It was announced then by the Premier, who usually makes these kind of announce­ ments, that thirty-two portable classrooms,designed to eliminate overcrowding at the College of Trades and Technology and the eleven vocational schools throughout the Province.were under construction by Atlantic Design Homes Limited,to be completed as rapidly as possible. The Premier announced a $640,000. expansion to the Trade School and the eleven vocational schools, there would be sixteen classrooms added to the Technical College.

What has happened to that proua1111MTWhat is the status of it? Rave these portable classrooms been completed? What is it costing the Government? Is it $&40,000. or more than that? Is there any contribution from the Government of canada for these portable classrooms? Why wao Atlantic Design Homes awarded the contract? Were proposals asked for? Were tendors called? On what basis did they get the contract? How much is it costing us per portable classroom? The Premier said an agreement between the Province and Ottawa.whereby each of the Governments would pay for the additional classrooms.had not yet been reached.

That was November 1970. He said, "It is the Provinces hope that Ottawa will pay more than fifty per-cent of the cost of the expansion progra111111e." Well, did Ottawa agree? Did the Premier's hope tum out to be correct that Ottawa would pay? on these portable classrooms? Could the Minister give us some information The Minister announced at the Development Conference and he is asking now for $3. million dollars, operational grants for school boards, announced 324 I

March 30th, 1971 MR. CROSBIE: Tape 78 JM - 3 and gave the impression that the Government was going to do away with the chool boards and chu:rches having to spend any capital ll01lies on school buildings. He gave a completely false impression to the public at large. that the school tu and school fees were going to be eliminated as lut.d been prOlllised in 1967 or 1966-67 in the Throne Speech. The Minister after that changed his wording,.to say that it would take two or lllOre years before the final steps could be taken. 325

~ March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 79 P~ge l Mr. Crosbie. There will be a very comprehensive enquiry. Well, Mr. Chairman, in 1966-67, the Government announced that school fees and school taxes were eliminated. It then had to change its position in midstride and come into the House and leave school fees and school tax assessments in being so that the school boards ~ould raise money for capital purposes . and for specialist teachers. That was in 1966-67. That was five years ago. Certainly, it was four years ago.

Surely, the Government must have been investigating the business of the capital cost of schools for the last four years. It was four years ago it announced that it was eliminating school fees and school taxes and did not do it. Now the minister says that,at the Development Conference, the Government intend to conduct an investigation into the possibility. Why did not the Government conduct an investigation before saying in 1967 that it was going to eliminate all these fees? Why has it not investigated it since.? It has had four years in which to investigate this. Why mention this investigation at all?

Except to give people the wrong impression,that they were no longer going to have to pay tuition fees and school taxes. The minister has since had to correct it. Untold damage was done to the school boards of the Province, in collecting their school fees and taxes by the ministert premature announcements and by the way he worded it and by the false impression that got out. Who has been appointed to undert~ke the very comprehensive enquiry?

March 4th., 1971 the minister said, "this matter would call for a very comprehensive enquiry which, in all probability, would take a year or ~re." Yes, it will be after the election before this enquiry is finished. It will take a year or more. Who is doing the enquiry? Who is being appointed? When the House opened on March 22nd., the hon. the Premier spoke for a few moments on that subject. He made a most peculiar statement, Mr. Chairman. He said that the Government would take over all capital costs of building schools 326

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 79 Page 2 Mr. Crosbie. in this Province, if the churches agreed, if the churches agreed to the method of taxation that would replace it. That, in my view, was an insidious attempt to put the churches of Newfoundland in the position where they will have to take responsibility for the tax system or the taxes the Govemment impose, if it does take over one hundred per cent of the constructbn cost of schools. I can only hope that the denoainational authories in Newfoundland will not be unwise enough to allow themselves to be put in that position.

If the Government take over the payment of one hundred per cent of the cost of constructing schools in this Province and imposes new taxes or a new tax system to raise the revenue, this will not be the responsibility of the churches of Newfoundland. Thie will be the responsibility of the Government. Hr. Chairman, if this is done and the Government pay one hundred per cent of the cost of constructing schools, how can the Government allow title to those schools to remain in private bodies?

How can title to these schools remain held by the churches of Newfoundland, if one hundred per cent of the funds are public funds? Can any Government do that? Can they spend public funds on assets which will become one hl.Dldred per cent owned by private denominations? I fail to see how the Government can do it. But, in any event, for the Government to suggest that the Government will do this, if the churches agree to the tax system . that is to replace it, is dangerous and farcial.

I hope that the churches of Newfoundland will avoid that trap so that they do not be blamed for the tax system that the Government impose, if it does take over one hundred per cent of the cost of construction of schools. So, I would like to hear more from 327

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 79 Page 3 Mr. Crosbie. the Minister of Education,as to how this is being investigated? Who is doing the investigation? What the probabilities are and what taxes might be imposed.if the Government do this? We all remember the Govenunent increasing the s.s.A. tax one per cent 1 in 1967 to replace school fees and assessments, We all remember that we are still paying school fees and assessments, despite that one per cent increase. If the Government take over the cost of construction of schools, I venture to say that the S,S.A. tax will go up another two or three per cent, at least.

So, there are a lot of problems there. This appears to me to be a cheap attempt to make people believe that they no longer have to pay school fees and assessments. The Government is just going to find the money somewhere. Perhaps, it will come on a rocket from the moon and take over this system. If the Government take it over, the public will pay,the people will pay. You can believe that. There is no way of not believing it. The minister said in early February that the Government school construction was doubled,to $8 million this year,as compared with $4 million last year. This must be a wonderful year for money.

They had to borrow, They had a deficit of $103 million last year. The school construction grants did not double last year. What was the deficit of $10J million spent on? What was $125 million borrowed spent on that was not spent on school construction? That did not double this year. What kind of a deficit will we have next year, when the election is over, if we have $103 million this year, without any election? Will it be $200 million? Will it be $250 million? Will it be $300 million? Only time will tell. But ~ the minister, this year, says he is going to double school construction grants. 328

March 30th •• 1971 Kr. Crosbie. Tape no. 79 Pqe4 Recreation: The moister is promising now to finance recreation facilities all over the Province. Something the Government did not do last year. It did not do it 1969. It did not do it in 1968. It did not do it in 1967. It promised it in 1967. In 1967 the great recreation programme was promised~when there was a by-election on in Gander. I remember it well. The member for Gander got elected. The Government announced a tremendous recreation province. There were going to -be grants to every comunity in Newfoundland, every municipality that would put up so much.

The Government would provide the rest. This House. to date, three or four years later, Mr. Chairman. has not spent a cent on that recreat~on programme. Now, with an election coming up. the minister is going to start this progranane and finance recreation facilities and hockey rinks and stadilDDs and stadia all over the Province. He did not do it last year. The Government had a $103 million deficit. Be did not do it last year and the Government borrowed $125 million. Be is going to do it in 1971-72. Where is that money coming from? Why did not the minister do it last year? Why did he not do it in 1969-68 or 67?

The magical answer we get is tight money. The tight money has now become elastic money. Now money is growing on trees for this Government. It has to appear so, because there is an election coming. Perhaps, the minister will explain how many recreation centres he is going to finance this year and where he is going to get the money from to do it and why he did not do it last year or the year before or the year before that or the year when it was promised? Transportation: School bus transportation.

The minister announced in that famous conference, and in his news-' letter that he is going to spend a lot more on school transportation. I believe the minister has said that he is going to take over the costs entirely, one hundred per·.cent, Government responsibility for transportation of all children. qualifying under existing formulae. That is what the minister has anno1Dlced. The minister 329

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 79 Page 5 Mr. Crosbie. last year refused to assist the parents down in Wabush or Labrador City with their school transportation problem down there. In the cold of the Labrador.winter, it did not fit in. The Government did not have the money to do it. It did not come under Government regulations. It did not come under Government formula. There were a hundred reasons why the parents of Labrador City were told their children could walk a mile or two to school in 30° to 40° below zero weather. But now, suddenly, at the January, February 1 Development Conference, the problem is solved.

The Government are going to pay one hundred per cent of school transportation; a hundred per cent, not ninety per cent, not eighty, not seventy, not sixty, not fifty, a hundred per cent, the minister is going to pay now. Is the minister going to pay now for achool transportation in Labrador City and Wabush? Perhaps he might give us a few words on that. Vocational Schools: The minister is going to build five new vocational schools: Bonavista, Placentia, Springdale, He is so anxious to buB.d them . that the tenders are ailed now for the foundations, before the plans are ready. The detailed plans are not ready yet.

Architects have been starying. They have been just about starving for the last three to four years without work to do, while the Government were in the throes and horrors of tight money, nothing to do, Now,in the last two or three months, they are working night and day whacking out 330

March 30 1971 Tape 80 page 1. plam1 and designs and so on for the Government in this election year. The Government cannot wait to get the plans off the drawing board,they are down there pulling them out.As soon as they are finished with the pencil and the l)ell,the Govenunent pulls out the plan and calls a tender and rushes it off. They called tenders for the foundations of these five schools. The Minister MR.MURPHY: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. minister permit a question on that? MR.CROSBIE: Yes. MR.MURPHY: The statement that plans are being prepared.

The story is that these schools have already been let without an~ tender called, .Lundrigans - ' I do not know if this is true or not perhaps - MR.CROSBIE: W~ll, perhaps the Minister could explain that.I thought I saw tender calls in the paper there a few weeks ago. KR.MURPHY: It appears that - the schools have already been - MR.CROSBIE: I do not think that that can be so,the Hinister of Public Works would/not have that. He has met with the construction association and discussed how the tender system is going to work.

So I do not know,perhaps the Minister could tell us that,iut in any event, five foundations are going to be started shortly, Well, would the Minister explain, is the formula still fifty-fifty with Ottawa or do we have to pay all the costs ourselves1 What will the five schools cost? Give us a bit of information on them. I am sure they are badly needed,but we would like to know just how the Minister plans to raise W1011ey for it~ and when he anticipates they 11ight be constructed and whether construction will be completed after the election is over, These are all questions that naturally reach one's mind. Mr.

Chairman, the Minister did not mention what used to be one of the favourite subjects of the Government when it came to Education,-Free tuition and salaries at Memorial University. The Government started that progrannne before 1966 , it was free tuition for every student attending Memorial University, 331

March 30 1971 Tape 80 page 2. salaries to be paid,$100 a month if you lived outside of St. John~s, fifty dollars a._.month if you lived in the city, for third, fourth and fiftp year students, fourth and fifth year was going to be extended to them all. That was in the halcyon days of 1966, The Premier remembers the days. "That was the day~my friend,dah, dah, da, da, " ..... You had to listen sharply, the Premier is trying to obfuscate. Has he looked that up yet? That means confused, "Those were .. the .. ~ays my bon boob,boob, boob,boob boo, boo." We are thrilled.

We are thrilled with the wit, the likeness and wit. MR.,ROBERTS: What is the rule about using foreign languages on -­ MR..SMALLWOOD: Is it not bilingualism? SOME HON, MEMBER: We are bilingual. MR.CROSBIE: Listen to the cuckoos. The last time I heard anything like this vas in an old watchmakers shop. Cufltoo ... ~ Now where was I,Mr. Chairmmi'l MR..CHAIRMAN: Item 6, Education and Youth. MR..CROSBIE: Yes, but where was I, oh yes, Memorial Students. Well that got changed Mr. Chairman, the last four years. There is now a means test for free tuition. There is now a means test for salaries.

Never mind if there is a good programne or not,that is changed. Why has not the Minister told us about hie great new free tuition and salary programme for students at Memorial, not a w~d about that. What has happened to that? HOw does the hon. Minister know ~•tis what wiped out? I heard members of the Cabinet want the Mothers Allowance .wiped out. But I am not allowed to say who. MR • . CHAIRMAN: Order Please! MR..ROWE: Mr. Chairman, our free tuition programme.4or the very simple reason that the payments are made, the payments are not in the Interim Supply Hr. Chairman. MR.CROSBIE: Mr.

Chairman, we can hope that,if the hon. Minister is in the House for another nineteen years,he may know what a point of order is. There is money being requested by the Minister fur Memorial University. The great Development 332

March 39 1971 Tape 80 page 3. Conference about the feee tuition and salaries. The great News Letter of February 1971,

summary of the statement of the Hon. Dr. P. W. Rowe, good thing it is a

summary - the whole page that

summary - tf the whole speechvere given ,it would have been a book that went out. That did not mention the free tuition and salaries If tight money is over why has not the Government gone back to its promise to institute free tuition for all, and salaries for all at Memorial University1 'Will the Minister explain why that has not been done? The money is no longer tight for all the other programmes the Minister is engaged in, why is it tight still for students at Memorial University? Well, there are so:m1any other things, there is a miscellaneous at $1.5 million. Miscellaneous, $1.5 million whatever that is.

MR.MURPHY: Pencils and erasers. MR.CROSBIE: Pencils and erasers, we are told,Mr. Chairman, that the Minister had to have $800,000 for school supplies because he has to pay for them in September. He orders them now and pays for them in May or June or July or August or September. The Government has never been known to have a bill outstanding for an excess of thirty days. Surely the school supplies are purchased for this year. The Minister does not need $800,000 for school supplies for the next couple of months. What a fairy tale,the Minister does not need that money until the summer.

I could say more but I know there are other people who want to speak on this subject. I think that will do for the preliminary Mr. Chairman, as a pre¼iminary skirmish,skimming on the surface. 1here is a bird that skims along the surface of the water and then it goes down and comes up again - we are only skimming the surface here. The Minister has been a skimmer tn the information he has given to us this morning. I woula like to have his co111111ents on some of the points I have - I know it is too much to expect.

I know the order is gone out from up above or down below. in this case the eighth floor,that no time is to be spent giving any information 1 or u little as possible, But perhaps the Minister could treat us with some of 333

March JO 1971 Tape 80 page ~ the•e subjects.I think they are. of some inlportance to the people of the Province We do·:not eyen get water here today - get our ovn vate~ - Excuse· me. Mr. · Qaif1118D. Hll.BICIQWJ: No, the -staff ill not on this momi~g. Mr. Chairman, I would like to tutd:ct my comments to the items that; have been elaborated on~with smne informati~ fr0111 the - by the Bon. the Minister.in presenting this motion and request for the amount SQUght in thie Bill,. In his opening :remarks 334

March 30th. 1971 Tape 81 PK - 1 . MR. HICKMAN: The minister expressed some concem and al1110st some amusement over the suggestion that the amount requested should be restricted to one month supply, and drew the attention of the committee to the fact that in previous sessions Govemment have come into this House and asked for up to three months Interim Supply. Well, may I remind -this committee, Mr. Chairman, that this request for Interim Supply is coming within two days of the end of the Govemment's Fiscal Year.

This is a far cry from asking for Interim Supply in February. to take Govemment through to the·end·of its Fiscal Year. This is simply asking Government - MR. SMALLWOOD: Interim Supply? MR. HICKMAN: Supplementary Supply,to take Government through to the end of its Fiscal Year. Now, Mr. Chairman, we are entitled to assume that sometime during the month of April Govemment will bring down its budget, and if it is going to br~g down its budget· . in April, we are entitled to assmae. that Govemment with its majority will see that the estimates contained in the budget will be voted during April.

If this does not occur, if because of the lateness of.the budget insofar as the month of April is concerned, we have to go into May, then it is a very simple thing for Government to ask for Interim Supply for May. The members of this House will be in a much better position to judge the reasonableness of the request, because this House will then and this committee will then have before it the detailed estimates for the Fiscal Year 1971 - 1972. So there is nothing peculiar> nothing unusual110r nothing unreasonable in suggesting that this Bill should deal with one month's Interim Supply rather than three or more.

We do not quite know how many, but the implication~ 1• that it is for three months. Mr. Chairman, the minister,in giving us some details of the depart~nt requirements 1 refers to $2 million on Capital Account,to be passed to the Dea.ominational Education Committee and that,in turn,will go to the school boards for construction grants. 335

March 30th. 1971 Tape 81 PK - 2 MR. HICKMAN: Now. Mr. Chairman, that comes with a bit of surprise to members of this committee, lam sure. Because hon. members will recall that only three days ago,in answer to a question on the Order Paper, this House was advised by the hon. minister that he does not know how many schools have been built or how many new classroom& have been opened in Newfoundland, That question properly belongs to the churches.

Now are we being told today that the $2 million that the minister is asking this committee to vote~that he does not know where that $2 million is going, that he d~s not know what classrooms are being extended or built or enlarged,nor what schools are being built in Newfoundland this year. Are we to tmderstand that the Government of the Province, that the Minister of Education has no control over the building of schools? If such is the case. then what is the use of the provision in the Schools Act, I think . it is

Section 35 of the Schools Act which imposes upon the authority. the ~bligation_to approve the signatures . - ... . . . . ' -. ---- or the borrowing by school boards. What is the point in having that

Section in the Act? Obviously, the whole intent of the Schools Act was to give the Government of this Province and to give the House of Assembly some control over establishing priorities in the spending of the education dollar. Mr. Chairman, recently there appeared an editorial in a very good Newfoundland publication called• . 'l~e Educators' Gazette," which dealt with this very problem,and it is very apropos the $2 million that the hon. minister has asked this committee for now. And it was talking about this very question that Government falls back on when it is in an embarrassing position.

I quote, "the churches ownership of schools have long been used to the hilt by a Provincial Government,when it has been convenient to do so. There have also been times when it has been just as convenient for the Government to forget the churches'role in education. In both ~nstances, the Government have been equal to the task. Thus for instance, when the House of Assembly receives a petition whose prayer is better and/or additional school facilities in some part of the Province, where the need is clearly obvious, one hears.at once, 336

March 30th. 1971 Tape 81 PK - 3 MR. HICKMAN: the best oratory and the lousjest logic from the Government bench. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I think, the hon. member is out of order in reading from the editorial of the newspaper. MR. HICKMAN: I feel reasonably certain, Mr. Mccurdy has nothing to do with the ''Educators' Gazette.• MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! I think the rule is based on th~ fact that the opinions of others is. not really~material for a debate in the House, The rule says that the members are not permitted to quote from newspapers in their debate. Not opinions. MR.

HICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, may I express my own opinion? The opinion that has been voiced by many concerned school board members and manv concerned parents and many concerned educators in this Province, when they draw attention to the fact that was so vividly pointed up by the hon. minister,in his answer to the question last week, t'hat when the petitton is for the improvement of school facilities and this petition is presented on the table of this House the reply always comes back;"we do not build schools, the churches build schools. They build them, not the Government." But, Mr.

Chairman, let us take it a step further and when the churches have built the schools then there is an amazing transformation, Government officials suddently move in to cut the ribbon. They say we have built the school. Now I do not take any issue at all with a Government saying;~we have built the school.' Because that is precisely what Government is all about. But I do take strong issues when the Government uses the denominational authorities and the churches as a shield to protect them from the requests of concerned parent$~ and concerned school boards and concerned educators in this Province, Mr.

Chairman, again, under the items that have been dealt with in limited detail by the hon. the minister when introducing this motion, we are told that $3 million will be required for operational grantito achool boards. 337

March 30th. 1971 Tape 81 PK - 4 MR. HICKMAN: I think what would be far more relevant and which is far more essential to this committee is that, if the minister would give an indication u to the financial position of the various school boards in this Province at this time. Because, Mr. Chairman, a survery,conducted of the school boards in the Province of Newfoundland 1 indicates that most, if not all of th~m,are in very, very serious financial difficulties at this time.

There is not much point in standing in this House and talking about the magnificent grants being tiven to school boards,and then you go and talk to the administrators in the various integrated school boards or the Roman Catholic Boards throughout the Province, and you are told that they are running from pillar to post trying to meet the reasonable demands of their teachers.

Quite recently I was discussing this with the administrator of one of the larger rural integrated boards, and he poured out his fustration to me, the operational granm that come from Government are barely sufficient to pay the salaries of the caretakers, to pay the cost of heat, to pay the cost of fuel, to pay the ordiniary cost of operating schools in this Province.

But, he says, "what do you do, when the head of the Science Department or the head of the Physical Education Department or Music Department or any other department of Government comes to you with a new programme~ not a programme that is going to take a school in Burin and put it ENay ahead of something you will find in California, but something to try and bring the schools in Newfoundland close to the quality of education, close to the type of instruction that North American students are receiving today and that Newfoundland students are entitled to receive l' 1 1 338

March 30th, 1971 MR. HICKMAN: Tape 82 JM - 1 ''what do you say to him when he comes with this programme and says, 'What I • asking for is really only a quality of education, a type of instruction, the imposition of a cirriculum that in 1970 is already way behind that you vill find in neighbouring Nova Scotia.!"" ~ou have to look them straight in the eye and say, ''Your program is good but we do not have a nickle for teaching aids, think about it and maybe next year we will be able to find the money." Mr. Chairman, this is not the implication we get.

The implication we get is that Government is spending millions upon millions upon millions on education, that generosity is pouring out of the ears of Government and that; in fact the Minister went as far as to say at this recent conference that he is getting letters suggesting that school boards are extravagent. -. I happened to be at a speech •night of one of the larger schools under the Avalon's Consolidated School Board 1the night that statement was made -and . the disgust and dismay that echoed through that hall that night?over the statement that had been made that afternoon by the hon.

Minister,,and the illlplications and the aspersions cas~ at school board members who serve free . of charge in Newfoundland today. Be made one very graphic comment and the comment was that he said; "It is a desperate situation,when dealing in millions of dollars, 15~000 children and 600 teachers,operating forty school 0 plants,and these are very general figures, we have to consider carefully an expenditure like say $600.00 for a few drapes or a piece of essential equipment and so on and so on." This is an extravagent school board. No, Mr. Chairman, this exemplifies every school board in Newfoundland today.

They have developed, not because of their own desire but because of the miserliness on the part of Government, because of the feeling that they have that Government wishes they would go away,they have been forced to develop into penny-pinching administrators who day after day have to tum to their academic staff and say, ''We cannot give you the funds to implement programs that are so long overdue in our school system." Yet the hon. Minister says, "I get letters saying school board members 339

March 30th, 1971 Tape 82 JM - 2 Mk. HICKMAN: in Newfoundland are extravagent." Mr. Chairman, school board members in this Province are not only not extravagent, not only are they very dedicated Newfoundland men and women serving on these boards but they are becoming more and more frustrated by the attitude of Government toward these boards, The statement that was made by the hon. the Minister of the inquiries and _;..- · the negotiations that will be carried out with the churches to see whether or not Government can take over the full cost of building and constructing schools in Newfoundland • .

As one very high official in Education said,on the day that this House opened, before the opening session commenced, that if Government continues its present course,no self-respecting Newfoundland will serve on a school board in this Province because,what will there be left for them to .dot Their entire efforts in the field of curriculum, their entire efforts in the quality of education are being frustrated. If they are going to have nothing to say in the construction of schools, which is a pie in the sky dream everybody knows that.

Why is it that everywhere else in North America the success of the school system depends on the maximum local involvement? Why is it? Are we wrong or are we right and the rest of Horth America wrong? Are we going to take away from the man living in Port au Choix the right of involvement in the educational process of his children? Are we going to suggest that doctrines can be laid down and curriculum dispensed with and decisions made within this Ivory Tower that will be so all-embracing that it will take care of the peculiar needs of every ~ollllltlnity in Newfoundland? Of course we cannot.

Our educational process, Mr. Chairman, cannot survive unless we have more and more local involvement. It cannot survive unless there is close consultation with the school boards of this Province before weird and wonderful announcements emanate from this building. Mr. Chainn.an, everyone in this Rouse realizes that the cost of education in any Province in Canada and the cost of education in Newfoundland is a pretty expensive one but I challange anyone in this House to say that as of today we are •pending anything like enough money to meet the educational requirements 340

March 30th, 1971 Tape 82 JM - 3 MR. HICKMAN : of the students of this Province. This House has now asked, according to the Minister, for $11. million dollars to pay teachers' salaries and this takes into account the new increase in salaries that we hear will be paid come April lat and the increases that have been negotiated by the Newfoundland Teachers~ Association. I think it can be safely said that certainly not since the coming of Confederation has the educational process of Newfoundland gone through such troubled times as it has during the past six to eight months.

We witnessed not too long ago a withdraw•l of services of many of our teachers in -several towns in Newfoundland. We also witnessed something,which in my opinion was even more disasterous,and this was the"work to rule"that was prevalent throughout this Province. People found themselves forced in the position where they had to take sides; is the Government's offer adequate? Are the teachers being unreasonable in their demands? What was completely overlooked, Mr.

Chairman, what was completely overlooked was the disasterous effect that this totally unnecessary controversary was having and will have on the educational process in the Province of Newfoundland. Does anyone in his right mind really think that because the regretable dispute was solved,temporarily at least and I hope permanently,a few weeks ago, that now everything has been erased, that we are now going to get back to normal teaching, normal instruction, improved quality of education in this Province? Does anybody really believe that?

Do they really believe that when the Newfoundland Teachers' Association found themself faced with the bludgeon that was being thrown at them by Government and had to go back to the classroom and when they thought that they had found at least a face saving.formula and when they announced that they were instructing or requesting their teachers and members to return to the classroo111S because here is all we can get·for the first two years but we are going to negotiate a three year contract, a third year;and out the same day comes the Minister of Education and says, ''No~" Does anyone think that this is going to mean peace and harmony in the teaching profession in this Province?

Does anyone think that this will not add to the already 341

March 30th, 1971 MR. HICKMAN: Tape 82 JM - 4 burdensome troubles and tasks the school boards have and the Denominational Education Committee has and everyone else connectea with the school boards? Ho, Mr. Chairman. A concerned Government, a concerned Minister,whose real concern is with the quality of education,when they saw that this was coming to an end, vhen they saw that the teachers were going back to the classroom. would not have bludgeoned them on that last little face-iaving criteria that was announced by the Newfoundland Teachers' Association.

There could be nothing more disasterous to this Province than have teachers reluctantly performing the duties of their profession in the classroom. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that any teacher in Newfoundland today has to come to the conclusion, it is as clear as the nose on your face, that the teachers in this Province do not have the confidence of the Government, that they have been bludgeoned and bulldozed into alnost losing their profess~onal status. Yet we are going to hear, I will bet you,before this session is out,about everything ve have done for the school teachers.

It will take this Province many years to recover from the trouble­ some times that we have just recently gone through insofar as the teaching profession is concerned. You might say, Mr. Chairman, when we are talking about teachers, when we are talking about'~the item on teachers salaries $11; million dollars, you might say, Mr, Chairman, well that is only the teachers. It goes a great deal further, Mr.

Chairman, than the teachers because obviously it has to reflect on the quality of education that our children receive~ What our teachers need, and let us not be carried away by this nonsense of 600 applications from outside the Province to teach in Newfoundland. When I was chairman of the School Board we used to get dozens of these each year,but we still used to have to send the superintendent out to look for specialist teachers who were not available in the Province and we knew what most of these applications were. They were a passport 342

March 30th, 1971 MR. HICKMAN: Tape 83 JM - 1 by young qualified teachers to travel all over the world~'we will spend a year in Newfoundland and then we will go on somewhere else or we will make an enquiry to see what the salary is down there and to see what the working conditions are." You reply to these letters and it is the last you ever hear from them. No, Mr. Chairman, what we have to recognize in this Province is that, if we have a disgruntle teaching profession,that they are going to go.

Let me give you one example, while this withdrawal of services was on I know of one high school in this Province where three young, loyal, dedicated, Newfoundlanders,who had just finished Memorial at a tremendous expense to them,have all advised their board, their one board, that next year they will no longer participate in the teaching profession of this Province.

One is going to Rhodesia, another is going with the Federal Department of Fisheries and another is taking a job in industry and not one of them, not one of them,wanted to leave the teaching profession of this Province,But they had come to the conclusion that they are not strong enough to fight an arrogant Government that uses a club every time they try to speak up for their rights. This is what is happening to education,, Then the Minister comes in and says, "Give me $11. million dollars for teachers'salaries," as if this is going to cure all our ills. It is what is hidden underneath this, Mr.

Chairman, is so vital to the educational process in this Province. Mr. Chairman, we have been told that we need an extra $950,000. for mothers' allowance. to increase the mothers' allowance by fifty cents a month."­ COllllllendable policy, commendable social philosophy. Well, what is the good of giving a mother in Point May fifty cents a month per child extra when the Roman Catholic School Board for that area finds that it has to increase its assessments by $2.00 a month to find enough money to operate and to get teaching supplies?

Does any Government think that any mother in Newfoundland is going to sell the quality of education of her child 1 or his or her child, for fifty cents a month? Does anybody really believe that? Is that the kind of leadership we expect from the hon. the Minister who is a professional 343

Karch 30th, 1971 MR. HICICMAN: Tape 83 JM - 2 educator? He knows as well as I do that the quality of education in this ?rovince, that the gap is widening between the quality of education in this Province and even in our neighbouring Nova Scotia. He knows that. If we can take the public into our confidence, if we can give the true facts to the dedicated Newfoundlanders who are serving on school boards, if we can - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. HICKMAN: Well, you would not recognize a true fact if you heard it. I can tell them this, Mr.

Chairman, they will respond, make no mistake about it, they will respond to the educational needs of this Province but if we are going to come in and say, ''We want $26,895,000. because I have been advised that this covers three months and there is $11. million for teachers salaries, $3,770,000. pf;\r month and "X" number of dollars for buses and $1.5 million for recreation," ' this does not give any indication of the real educational needs 0f this Province. Last week we heard a glowing announcement from the hon. the Minister of Education;that in the town of St.

Lawrence there is going to be a recreational facility built at a cost of $150,000. to $250,000. The clear implication, the clear impression was that the Government of this Province was going to build it. Well, let us set the record straight, Mr. Chairman. That multipurpose recreational facility,which has been asked for and negotiated for a good ten years 2is being built by Alcan. They are calling tend~rs, they are going to build a multipurpose recreational facility and they should, they should, they owe it to the town of St.

Lawrence, every single dollar of it~ All they had from Government was a l~tter saying . - this was written a couple of years ago, two or three years ago, ''We do not have the money to build a recreational facility in St. Lawrence now but if you build it and if you ask for it we will pay you back our per capita share," But let us keep the record straight, this is being built and paid for right now by Alcan,and I say they should pay every nickle of it, they should have ten years ago. They owe it to the town of St. Lawrence, they owe it to the people of that area. If that is the kind of magnificent gifts 344

March 30th, 1971 Tape 83 JM - 3 MR. HICKMAN : and grants that recreational facilities are going to receive in Newfoundland, then I think we better not get too enthusiastic about the announcements that we hear. Now, Hr. Chairman, in this $1.5 million dollars there are some cunent account expenditures for education or recreation and youth. I would like to know how that money is going to be spent, these small amounts because I know that the hon.

Minister has on his desk now and he has had them there for twelve months all sorts of applications for comparatively sull grants to athletic associations throughout this Province,"Give us $5,000. or $10,000. so we can complete our soccer pitch, Give us a few thousand dollars to institute certain programmes in the rinks we have today.• But this money has never been available and this is money well spent, this is ~ot going to cost the Province millions of dollars.

I am sure that many of us,when we see ~an11da Games starting this year and when we saw them two years ago in Halifax,we must have had a great deal of pride, we had to,when we saw the Newfoundland Contingent marching in, bright young Newfoundland athletics who went up there to represent their Province. But we also must have found ourselves,as the competitions progressed we must have found a great deal of shame on our part that we did not provide the few AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR.

HICKMAN: We are not talking about big money, the few thousand of dollars during the preceeding year or years to place these Newfoundland athletics in a position where they could compete with any of those we find from the rest of Canada. But no, this all went by the board. Now we will hear the announcements this year.but again Canada Games is two years away. MR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I have been very impressed with the remarks by the hon. member for St. John's West and the hon. member for Burin who dealt very extensively with the position we find ourselves in with regard to education.

I have a few questions mainly,which I would like to direct to the Hinister,and I would hope that we will get some answers to them before the debate closes. 345

March 30th, 1971 MR. COLLINS: Tape 83 JM - 4 Mr. Chairman, it will be recalled that this past winter a very important conference on education took place in Gander and it was too bad that the Premier and the Minister of Education and others could not attend and find out how a conference should be set up, how it should be held and how a discussion should take place. I have many of the names, Mr.

Chairman, of the people who attended that conference, about two hundred and I will not attempt to get them all in the record but I can say that concerned Newfoundlanders from every walk of life, from almost every town in the Province,did attend that conference and a properly organized mini-conference, that is 1 if you want to, expound on the theories ~hat they thought that the educational process in Newfoundland could be improved upon. 346

March 30 1971 Tape 84 page 1. the conference was set up by Dr. Phil Warren,~ noted Newfoundlander. MR.CHAIRMAN: Order please! I am not sure now that under Education and Youth here that vote for a salary grant, you know, that we should go into this particular conference of which you have the report there. MR.COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, I was only building up to - or using this information to build up to some remarks which I wanted to make, in terms of some recommendations which those people made. Certainly,if the recommendations were made by a man of the calibre of Dr.

Warren and Dr, Herbert Kitchen and many of the school board members and principals of ·schools and district superintendents, If those people met and discussed what in their opinion should, but in their opinion, the direction which education should take in Newfoundlandrcertainly, Sir, I believe that that is applicable and should be admitted for this particular debate. One of the first recommendations,Mr. Chairman, which was made,was that it is recommended strongly that colleges established outside of St. John's be Regional Community Colleges.

The concept of Junior Colleges is far too narrow to meet our needs and these Rigianal Colleges must be flexible enough•.to meet the changing needs of the region,and those needs sho~ld be determined in consultation with the local citizens. Wi have heard a great deal,Mr. Chairman, about Regional Colleges. It was first mentioned I believe in the Royal Commission Report on Education and Youth,which was chaired by Dr. Warren. We have heard many indications from the Minister and from the Premier about the wisdom of setting up . and establishing this type of college around Newfoundland.

But we have seen very little action. Now, Mr. Chairman, I submit that because we do not have community colleges or regional colleges/I prefer to call them co111111Unity collegeslacress this Province,it means that,aany of our citizens are young people who are living in Gander and Grand Falls and Comer Brook and in Labrador and the South Coast and so on and so forth, those people~ 347

March 30 1971 Tape 84 page 2. whether we like it or not,are being treated certainly as second class citizens, when we compare their opportunities with the opportunities of the young people who are living in St. John's and on the Avalon Peninsula.near Memorial University, We also know,Mr. Chairman, that Memorial University has grown to such an extent~! do not know the actual number of students attending there now but we do know that Memorial has grown probably as large as,·_it should grow.

I believe the student body is in the order of around iooo students and it is our opinion and certainly was the opinion of the people who attended this conference that the time has come when we m6at set up colleges outside of St. John's,in strategic places across the Province,so that our young peovle can have a better chance and not be denied their right to a good education. I will not suggest to the Minister where the colleges should be located.

I do not think this is the time or the place for t~at but I would pres1111e that before any decision is made,with regard to the location~hat certainly public interest and human interest would take priority over the narrow policical interest,which might very well enter into that decision. 'l'here is a lot to be said,Mr. Chairman.for the establishment of community colleges.

We would like to see the colleges located,as I said ,in strategic areas,where they can serve the maximum nuaber of people and where the college can also be utilized for Adult Education,for training of citizens for leadership in the communities,and many other fields which are so lacking in terms of present educational policy_in Newfoundland. KR.CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. memlter permit a question? Would he think that Gander would be a suitable site for one of these colleges? even the most suitable. Perhaps MR.COLLINS: Well, Mr. Chairman, certainly Gander is an ideal location for such an establishment.

There was the place where this conference was held,which means that it was the best place in Newfoulldland,in the wisdom of Dr. Warren and Dr. Kitchen--and other noted educators. Being that it was centrally located, 348

March 30 197m Tape 84 page 3. being that it was near St. John' i by air I W:e do not want to be all that near the capital but,since we do have a very important International Airport there, the problem of bringing in professors/and it is acknowledged that the early years of operation of any college across Newfoundland it might be necessary to utilize the services of professors from Memorial)and I can think of no better place in Newfoundland where a professor can quit work at Memorial at five o'clock and , go home to his residence in St.

John's and eat supper and get on an aircraft and be in Gander in about fifteen minutes and do his courses during the night and fly back again by eleven or eleven-thirty. This has happened, indeed,Mr. Chairman, we have ~he nucleus of a ~unior college or a community college in Gander right now, because this past winter or right now, there 11re 240 students from Gander~ from Eastport, from places as far away as Wesleyville,frbm New World Island and other places,who are coming in to Gander taking various courses,not all teachers, mind you, Mr. Chairman, either.

A lot of them are teachers upgrading themselves·. improving their qualifications but a lot of people in business areialso coming in and taking various courses which are being -- supf»lied'·by professors who are indeed flying into Gander early in the evening,giving their courses and returning back here in the later hours of the evening. So certainly, Sir that is one good argument why Gander could be a :location for a college. A good argument Mr.

Chairman, since this was mentioned,is that if we take a set of divi.ders and place one end of the dividers on the town of Gander and we make a circle a radius of about fifty miles we can,by doing that, encompass enou~h communities, the population of about fifty or fif~-five thousand people. Certainly that,in my ,pinion.is adequate numbers to support a college of this nature. Hr. Speaker, it was also rec0111111ended at that conference that schools in the Province be encouraged to introduce at least a first year university programme,as a temporary move while awaiting a decision on c0111111unity colle~es. 349

March 30 1971 Tape 84 page 4. Now, when we talk about community colleges 7 a lot of people immediately get the impression that we are talking about large buildings, about big pieces of real estate and I do not like.Mr. Chairman, to think of it in that way. As I mentioned a little while ago,we do have the nucleus of a college at Gander right now. I believe that as that grows and the need is proved and as more and more people become interested,then and only then shall the college be built, the actual buildings built.

I remember that conference hearing from a professor from Alberta,who said that this is a course that we should certainly follow,because the record has been in Alberta that many colleges has been built around the Province\mainly ~ suppose again for the political impact of vote getting appeal of them,and they found out,after a few years,that the colleges were built in the wrong place. So, Mr.

Chairman it is essential 1 I believe.that we do insure that the colleges are built in areas which are easily accessible and in areas whereby they can serve the maximum numbers of people and in areas where the proper municipal services etc. are readily available. Mr. Chairman, so •uch for regional colleges. 350

March 30, 1971, Tape 85, Page 1 -- apb MR. COLLINS: The hon. member for Burin mentioned a little while ago the , importance of building the proper type of school. I remember some years ago when I was active on a school board in Gander, where that board, and I know that other boards recotmnended to the minister since the desirability of establishing a central architectural division in the department. If one were to travel across Newfoundland Mr. Speaker, you will find a great number of schools which look like bale boxes.

You will find some schools which are reasonably functional, we will find some schools which are really functional. ·Mr.

Speaker, I would submit that the time has come if not long passed, but there is no ~ense in going back to the past, but the time has certainly come now when we must be thinking in terms of divising the maximum benefit from the dollars which we spend on education, certainly maximum· benefits from dollars which we spend in erecting buildings, and we must insure that those buildings are the best possible type and not - the design of which is not left to people who might not know what is really needed.

I believe that this is a job for professional people, l:Jf course, since school boards across the Province cannot afford to engage such professional people, then the responsiblity must rest with the central headquarters here in the department,to come up with a proper division, employing specialists in this field~so that we will come up with the right type of school to ensure maximum utilization, not only by our students,Mr. Chairman, but by the adult population as well. I do not know how many members opposite have ever seen ~esame Street 0 on television.

I did not see too many programmes myself, but I did see one or two and I was impressed and I am sure other hon. members were impressed,if they saw them. I would like to direct a question to the minister, and ask him to indicate to the House what studies have been made by the department with regards to educational television1 What the prospects are for introducing this means into our school systemf We all know of the great possibilities here.

We are also aware,of course,of the possible costs, Sut I would like to know,as I am aure most people would like to know, just what the views of the minister and the Government are and what plans they might have to introduce E.T.V.,if for no other reason than for just a trial period in some of our areas. 351

March 30, 1971, Tape 85, Page 2 -- apb Perhaps the minister might also like to connent on the fact that 400 students were barred from the lower university after Christmas. Maybe that is too strong a term, but that is the term that was given to me. Perhaps the minister might indicate ~o the House what happened,that 400 students were refused admission to Memorial. Was it because of lack of space? Was it because of some other reason? What ever the reasons were, I would suggest that the minister might inform the House just what did happen there.

I remember last year also, ,in our discussions on the estimates with reagrd to education, some debate took place with the need for the introduction of safe driving courses in our schools. I recall that three or four years ago the Gander board 7 of which I was a member at the time, we did introduce a safe driving progrannne in the school. There were about 100 young people who registered and graduated, I can tell you,Mr.Chairman, that the course is really worthwhile. It was dropped then because of lack of finances and lack of support from the department.

Last year the minister did agree that the programme vaa a very worthwhile one, I am wondering what plans he might have this year for intruducing safe driving courses in the schools across the Province~ Mr.Chairman, we have heard a great deal about the needs of or in the field of physical education. We have heard promises down through the years AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. COLLINS: Mr.Chairman I am almost finished now. MR. ROWE: I was going to ask the hon. member if he would mind repeating his question about the university. I missed it, part of it. MR.

COLLINS: Well, it is my understanding,Mr.Chai:i:iilan 7 that 400 students were - and the term I used was, Mwere barred from entering Memorial University after Chirstmas.~ Now, I said at that point that maybe barred is too strong a word to use, but whatever word we might use, 400 students were denied the right to get into Memorial after their last Christmas exam. Now do not think it a case where they all failed, there were other reasons. Obviously,there were other reasons.

I do not know what they are. ·•his is why I am asking the minister to elaborate on that for us, so that we will know exactly whether the students were barred 352

March 30, 1971, Tape 85, Page 3 -- apb because of lack of space, whether they were barred because of lack of staff, or whether they were barred for whatever reason. With regard to recreational facilities,Mr, Chainnan, much has been said already, We have heard promises down through the years. I remember :i.n the by-election in Gander in 1967, when Mr. Ottenheimer and myself were coming out of the Atlantic Hotel in Botwood, when the Premier made a statement that we were going to get 108 or 113 stadimns and recreation centres across the Province. We all know,the record is there.

I am wondering what the minister might have in mind, because Mr. Chairman, many municipalities and Boards of Education ha,re spent considerable amounts of money in the intervening years. They were required,! believe,to contribute about twenty-five percent of the cost of the stadium or whatever the facility might be, with the understanding that the Government would provide the remaining seventy-~ive percent. A lot of those municipalities and boards have already invested their twenty-five percent and in some cases thirty-five or maybe fifty percent.

I would like for the minister to indicate to the committee just what those councils and boards of education can expect this year in terms of monies for stadiums and recreation centres, and auditoriums and what have you. Mr. Chairman, there ue a great number of other good sound recommendations coming from this conference which I referred to earlier, We have not heard the end of it yet. Certainly there is another debate coming when we can use them.

I would suggest to the minister that these are questions which are really important to all Newfoundlanders, and certainly before we vote any monies in Interim Supply or any other type of supply, the people of Newfoundland and indeed, the members of this hon, House have the right to know what Government plans are for this year. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I cannot speak as e-loquently on this matter as the hon. member for Burin did a few moments ago, but there are certain points that must be brought to the attention,! feel.

When we come to the situation, first of all the remarks of the Minister of Education concerning this matter,when he led in giving information with respect to the Interim Supply here, as he mentioned 353

Tape 85 1 March 301 1971, Page 4 - apb the fact that it was traditional in this Province to ask for three 1110nths Interim Supply. The only comment I would have to make to that,Mr. Chairman, is that what is traditional here in this Province is not always traditional in other de1110cratic societies. It is not a traditional and proper use of Interim Supply to come to this House and ask for one-quarter of the estimated budget for the next year and for $100 million, and that is what is being asked for. When we look to the whole vote of $26 million, there are certain things that merit comment. The first,Mr.

Chairman, is the situation with respect to the school boards themselves. Now, I was somewhat alarmed to hear the Minister of Education, and I do not believe he seriously meant it when he was answering questions a few days ago, he mentioned the fact that the Government has no control with respect to the construction of schools. The money is given to school boards,and they are responsible for the school construction. This is a situation that should never be allowed to stand. It is untenable.

The Government obviously has overall responsibility for education, to see that the youth of this Province are properly educated, that schools are proper and adequate and situate all throughout the island, everywhere,so that our young people can take advantage of them. With respect to this grant to school boards for school construction, I should like.Mr. Chairman, to also advert to a comment made by the Minister of Education,with respect to the ratio of students to teachers in the Province.

He very proudly gave a list of ratios?varying from twenty-eight pupils to a teacher, down I believe to twenty-three or twenty-four per teacher, or some­ where in that vicinity. The fact of the matter is,Mr. Chairman, that in the City of St. John's, anybody,who has young children going to school, knowsso well tha~ the classrooms in St. John's itself, as well as I suspect in other larger centres,are crammed to their capacity, to such an extent, that we had the rather unenviable situation occur,a few years ago, where classes had to be staggered.

The situation perhaps has gotten a wee bit better since, somewhat better. It has been alleviated somewhat, but it is still certainly not a 354

March 301 19711 Tape 85, Page 5 -- apb desirable situation. You have young people in the schools nowadays Mr. Chairman, where the pupil - teacher ratio is very, very much more than twenty-six to one, and it is an alarming proportion. As a matter of fact, most young parents~ in the larger centres anyway,are very much alarmed and very much concerned with the ratio of teachers to students in the schools where their children attend. It is a matter that has to be brought forcibly to the attention of Government.

Government cannot absolve itself from the responsibilities by saying that it is for the school boards to determine where the schools go, how many schools are going to be constructed, what facilities are going to be there. At all times and in all places, it is up to the Department of Edcuation and the Govemment to assure that there are adequate facilities available for the education of young children •. ' Another point Mr. Chairman, that we have, is that we have an amount in that vote with respect to the operational grants to school boards.

Now I notice that this does not appear to be a proportionate increase over and above~ INTERRUPTION: MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps Mr. Chairman, 1 may appeal to you that I may have the floor, I seem to be interrupted. Thank you. MR. SMALLWOOD (J.R.): The hon. gentleman has an audience of one. MR. MARSHALL: Well obviously Mr. Chairman, I have no more audience on the other side either because, the hon. gentleman on the other side do not listen anyway. Mr. Chairman, as I was saying. I was talking about the abolition of the aesessments. There .-is an amount here for the operational grants to school boards.

We all recall that at·-.the development conference a hint was made, a mention was made about the fact that school assessments in the future - MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, may we have a little quiet. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you,Mr. Chairman. MR. NEARY: Could we have a little order too,Mr. Chairman? MR. MARSHALL: Perhaps Mr. Chairman, thank you! 355

March 30, 1971, Tape 85, Page 6 - apb AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: If the hon. no. 3, could get away a little from the hon. the Premier, the person whom he hopes to succeed ••• MR.· CHAIRMAN: Order pleaseJ MR. MARSHALL: Anyway, on the abolition of the assessments,Mr. Chairman, there was mention made at the development conference about the possibility of abolition of the assessments to school boards. This was mentioned some years ago.

We got in a problem, the Government got itself in an 1D1enviable problem with the school boards,by talking about school fees being abolished, nnd echool fees as such were abolished, but they came to light again as assessments. Then we were told at the development conference that assessments may be abolished, then, subsequestly, after the parents .of school children indicate to the school boards that they are not going to pay the assessments 1 in view of this premature announcement by the minister, the minister is forced to make a public statement,to the effect that the Government is only looking into it.

Be gave an entirely different impression 1 to the general public , and farther created difficulties between the school boards and the general public. " 356

March 30th. 1971 Tape 86 PK - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Well further if you come from St. John's, farther perhaps if - you come from Jolly Old England. But, anyway, Mr. Chairman, this__!s the situation, it has farther aggravated the situation or the relationship between AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL~ It has farther aggravated the relationships between the general public and the school boards. This situation is very, very bad. We also know that investigations are being made - AN HON, MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. MARSHALL: Would the hon.

No. 3 please put his mouth where his brains are and sit on it, I would be very obliged. Mr. Chairman, the assessments;that this has caused a great aggravation again between the pupils and the school boards, and, Mr. Chairman, now we hear talk about a school tax assessment, a property tax assessment that may be put on the people ~o~yay ·for education. But, our whole point of the matter is that this school ta~ will substitute for school assessments. So the Government are_f~om time to time saying that people do not have to pay it in the present form, but are making them pay it in another form.

Now, I know that the school tax assessment would be spread over a greater number of people than the parents themselves, which would probably be a good thing. But, it is also to be remembered,when this particular item is being considered,that there are a lot of elderly people in and around Newfoundland and a lot of them living in the City of St.

John's itself, in houses where the cost of living is very, very high.k 1hile they may own their own houses, their income is very, very limited and if there is consideration, as there is going to be,for the impose of school tax by this Government 1 full consideration ought to be given to allowing the people over sixty-five years or sixty-five years and over to be exempt from the imposition of this school tax. Years ago, perhaps, the ownership of property indicated wealth, but it does not so in this day and age.

But I would appeal certainly to the Minister of Education and to the Government not to make the Job of education more difficult, vis-a-vis the school board, school boards with the teachers, school boards with the students 357

March 30th. 1971 Tape 86 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: and school boards with the parents themselves. Do not use the school boards as scapegoats for your own misgivings. It is absolutely and completely necessary for the Govemment of this Province to realize that it.has a responsibility for the orderly direction of education in this Province. The hon. the member for Burin has already spoken about the relationship of the teachers in this Province. He~e·we have $11 million in this Interim Supply for teachers salaries, MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chainnan, on a point of order.

Yesterday the galleries were going to be cleared because there was a titter up in the gallery, and there are about five conversations going on in this hon. House now,among hon. members,and it is making it very difficult to hear the speaker. So, I would ask,Mr. Chairman,to keep it in order. MR. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is $11 million tiere wted for teachers salaries,in Interim Supply. The hon. the member for Burin has gone into i .t ln.:cgreat detail. into the recent unfortunate events which occurred.

But_ I point out respect, to the school boards, the Government relationships with the school ;t' boards, its whole attitude towards the teachers is the same as~was towards the school boards, and it is absolutely a tragedy for education in this Province, where you have the Government attempting to beat and subject a group of professional people,such as the teachers,so that there. in an attempt to make them lose their dignity, nobody gains. It is most necessary, also, Mr.

Chairman, when you are speaking of teachers salaries and this whole vote on education,that consideration be given to upgrading the curriculum much more than it is now. A consideration should be given to making it mandatory that Grade XII be instituted here in this Province,the same way it is in most othe~ provinces of Canada. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! There is quite a hum coming from my left here, I can hardly hear what the speaker is saying. 14. MARSHALL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. MURPHY: They will get their supply and that is it. 358

March 30th. 1971 Tape 86 PK - 3 MR. MARSHALL: Anyway,~-rfth respect to the teachers of this Provine~, there is nothing short of a complete and absolute disaster. And I would appeal to the Govemment,in this area and of all other areas of relationships between the Government and the persons who are recipients of money by way of salary from the public purse,to realize the wants and aspirations of these people and to realize that public servants and public employees are very necessary and vital to this Province, and that their good will is absolutely essential.

The Government have done nothing towards fosterin~ this good will,and the result of the teachers situation of a few months ago will be felt for years and years and years to come. Now, Mr. Chairman, there are-.another few points that I wish to make as well.I would have likP.d tn have seen,in this p~rticular vote on education, more money devoted to the primary and secondary schools.

There is need of much more money~ Any educator, any teacher in the Province of Newfoundland will tell you that, that we are suffering in this Province as a result of the necessity of diverting more of our educational funds towards primary and secondary education. And that there has to be a fuller screening of education, of the educational system in this Province,so that young people can get into vocational schools on a much more easy bases than they have before. There has to be then screening of education 1 and I do not aee; I think, the Government have been lax, on this. But the main thing is, Mr.

Chairman, that at all times we must look towards the relationship of the Government with the teachers,nd relationship -:-~f~the--Goveroinent with the school boards. And in this the Government have miserably, very, very miserably failed. At no time should this Bovernment come before this House,or in any other public body,and try and cast the responsibility on the many fine men in the school boards in this Province, who are devoting their time free of char~e, who are very sincere individuals but,unfortunately,are made to appear as scapegoats for the lack of funds 359

March 30th. 1971 Tape 86 PK - 4 "'R. ~ARSHALL: and monies whi.ch Government are giving. Tl)anlt you. Mr. ChairmanJ MR. H. ll. v. EARLE: Mr. Chairman, the hour of the clock now shows 1 o'clock. t-m. CHAIRMAN: It is now 1 o'clock,I leave the Chair until 3:00 P.M • • 3CU

PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 6 5th Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT TUESDAY, MARCH 30, 1971 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE

March 30th., 1971 Tape no 87 1 The Committee of Supply resumed at 3 p.m. MR. EARLE: It seemed from the atmosphere this morning, particularly towards lunch time,that this particular vote was not being taken too seriously by the other side of the House. After all, it only concerns about $26 million or $27 million. The conversation and laughing that was carried on, on the other side, I do not think they felt that this was even worthy of consideration. It showed the typical, complete arrogance and indifference to the way in which the people's money is being spent.

I do think, however, that an amount of $26 million or $27 million is worthy of some consideration and considerable debate; particularly, as this may well be one of the last opportunities we get to do it, because we are told that all of this is so much nonsense and a waste of time, because it will be discussed in the estimates and so on. Well that may or may not be so, MR. SMALLWOOD: That may or may not be sol MR.

EARLE: No, because what had develop~d from last year afcer the estimates were brought down and the budget speech had been read, the facts which transpired afterwards throughout the year showed that to be so completely out of line with what actually happened. It does rest upon us very, very responsibly indeed, to question each and every item of the Government's proposed expenditure.

This is our job on this side of the House; that we must be in a position, at every opportunity, (I stress every opportunity) to question the expenditure of the Government so that what may transpire,after, can be shown to the people as being action or behavior,on the part of the Government, which does not bear out and many times in the past it has not borne out the information which has been 361

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 87 Page 2 Mr. Earle given to this House, I think Mr. Chairman . that,therefore, the discussion of this particular item, under fducation, is very appropriate indeed, Perhaps, education is required of all of us in this House, particularly to some of those on the other side. One or two items I should like to refer to in particular which come under this vote, first of which is the vote for Physical Fitness and Recreation. This has,as we all know, been a sort of leading platform of the present Government for some years.

It has been talked about as to what is going to be done but,unfortunately, very little has been done. Up to this point, of course, in the present debate, there has been no indication of what will be done, No one will dispute the need of a great Physical Education and Recreation Programme in this Province. The fact is that in so many parts of our Province, young people do not have any equal chance or opportunity, -an equal opportunity as compared with fellows of their same age in other parts of the ~rovince. I travelled recently to the Mainland.

I was very pleasaithat it so happened that I was on the same plane with some of these Canada Games' Delegations.that were going to;the Mainland to take

part in the Canada Games. They were a big, fine bunch of young people, A credit to anybody in Newfoundland, and we could all be proud of them. They were well uniformed, well dressed, very attractive and very delightful young •eople in every sense of the word. I am sure, from all the press reports that we had of the Canada Games, that these young people did enhance the reputation of Newfoundland.

But in going off on the plane and watching tKese young people have quite a lot of fun among themselves, and they were really enjoying themselves, it did strike me that there were so many of their fellows in this Province that had no opportunity whatsoever to participate in these things,in the same manner 362

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 87 Page 3 Mr. Earle. in which these boys and girls had. This stems back a long way and it is very relevant for this particular vote.

While we are spending a fair amount of money ~hrough the University and through other means,to get quite a limited number of people, a number of students and athletes and so on a fair opportunity to take parts in things (which as I say, it brings great credit to Newfoundland) , the great bulk of our students do not get this opportunity and so.any progra'IIDlle which may be uesigned by Government. and I hope that,in the votes for this year, it will be so designed that it reaches far down below just the University or vocational school level but gets ' into our elementary and primary schools and into the smaller places.

This is vitally important. Just for the purpose of illustration, I will mention one particular place. It happens to be in my district. It is Gaamish. Garnish is a fine settlement, a s111all settlement, but the people there are of very, very excellent stock. They are very independent, straight living, clean people, a pride to Newfoundland in every sense of the word. Yet, in that place, there is a group~of young fellows who have been very, very keen on football for years,and they have, out of that very small settlement, developed championship teams, Teams who have won the Newfoundland Championship in Football.

It is incredible, when you see the number they have to draw from. It is even more incredible when you see what they have to play on. In that place, they do not even have a proper football field,. but just a meadow which has been turned into some sort of a football field. Now these boys, without appealing to Government for a huge stadium or any great vote from education or from anywhere else, themselves, the year before last, raised $1;800 1 through various means~to recondition that , fiel~. 363

March 30th., 1971 Tape no 87 Page no. 4 Mr. Earle. At the same time, they applied to me to ask Government for a small grant to assist them. So, I asked the Government for a very modest amount. That is all they wanted, a modest amount, which was $500. They got $300. Last year, I asked for something more. They got nothing.

Now boys who show the initiative and industry and self-independence to raise for themselves, $1,800 or $2,000 to provide their own recreational and athletic facilities, under very, very difficult and costly conditions, I think it certainly warrants the attention of the Department of Recreation and Youth. Memorial University has brought great credit to this Province, as I mentioned earlier.through its participation in games. But here ag~in, I understand that very, very large sums of monev, indeed, are allocated by that University for travelling to various games and various contests on the Mainland and so on.

I have heard a sum of $125,000 mentioned, That may or may not be correct. This is good, But it is perhaps disproportionate, when you look at the other people throughout the Province who do not have five cents spent on them. Now we do not like or some people here do not like to hear talks of priorities, but the Government, whether it likes it ~t not, are.very, very heavily involved in University affairs. All this stuff about academic freedom and all that is fine. But the Government pay the bill.

The Government, I think, are duty bound to take a great interest in the activities of the University; particularly when it is finding the money, I am not saying,in what I am mentioning here,that the Government in any way should try to restrict the athletic program of the University, because it is an excellent one and does a lot of good. But they should measure with other parts of the country what the fairness is 384

March 30th., 1971 Tape no. 87 P~e5 Mr. Earle to all students throughout Newfoundland. This is where the Government have been so delinquent in allowing some things to go ahead at a pace, a very, very heavy pace, when other things are completely neglected. We thought that,when the great Recreational and Physical Fitness Programme was announced,that these other boys throughout the Province and these other girls would be given a chance. But it now appears to us that that,three or four years ago,was just another big political bluff. It has been put off. We hear it has been put off because of tight money.

But the so-called tight money that ~msupposed to exist during these past few.years did mean that the Government, in this period of tight money, borrowed three times as much as it had in the previous ten years- I believe it was. So, there could not have been all that tight money. The money that was obtained, in my opinion, was to a great extent misdirected, ln spite of all our protestations,on the part of the Goven1ment as to the equality of all the people of Newfoundland, This is one very, very evident fact that,in this particular field alone, some people get a large slice of the cake and some people get nothing.

Now Newfoundlanders are Newfoundlanders regardless of where they live. I feel that the Government should be more cautious or diligent in the expenditures of money. under votessuch as this,to see that it was spread more evenly and more fairly. l wonder sometimes, 355

March 30th, 1971 Tape 88 JM - 1 MR. EARLE: just to finish off on the University,how close the Government really is to that big establishment: It has a finger in,l think, the appointment of the Board of Regions, certain members on the Board of Regions. I do not think it does take a very personal or close interest in the programmes which are conducted over there. This is perhaps as it should be because a ~niversity has to be completely independent.

But,to divorce the practical side of what we do as against the academic side,it is in that,where it cost the Government so much money1 that the Government should be taking a very, very deep interest indeed. For instance we heard some chat here this morning about community colleges. I think we all favour the development of community colleges but perhaps the expression of, "Let us walk before we run" ' is very appropriate at this ~present time.

I recall that when I was in Government there was a great plan for the development of the universi~y drawn up before us and Sir Frederick Gibbard, one of the foremost and most noteworthy architects and landscapers in Great Britian,brought a very large and comprehensive plan,for the future development of the university,before Government and I think Government approved this in principle, I stand to be corrected but I think they did. The university had a look at it, I believe some of the students had a look at it and generally the whole thing has been vetted and thought well of.

But that plan in its full implementation in those days, which is now four years ago, would have cost approximately $250. million,to carry out this plan. Now a lot of it is essential, a lot of it will be done over the next twenty years but this is where the Government has to look at what they are spending on the University and what they are spending elsewhere and whether or not there can or cannot be regional colleges.

It is;'do we want a great and progressive University here and, at the same time,can we afford to develop these other things or should we keep this University reasonably small and should we branch out into the country to •ive people nearer or who will live nearer to it a greater opportunity, 1"heae are the sort of problems which the Government must and has to look at 366

March 30th, 1971 MR. EARLE: Tape 88 when it is looking at the University as a whole. JM - 2 On this physical fitness and recreation bit 1 I feel that again the Government has been shortsighted and to some extent deliquent in net looking at what seems to me to be a very obvious way to develop the recreational facilities in this Province. I can think, particularily in my own district because that is the area with which I am most familiar, there have been built in recent years a couple of very fine high schools.

Somebody said in their remarks this morning that many of the schools around Newfouncland were fine buildings but they were in, literally. in gravel pits, This is true. You find that all the school boards can do is build a fine building, put the students in it,but the surroundings of the building very often leave a great deal to be desired.

Now if,in my opinion,the~e is to be a recreational programme developed in this Province,it should be very closely tied to the regional and district high schools or vocational schools or places where there are large numbers of students,and a dual purpose could be arrived at by concentrating in this area. You could improve and beautify and enhance our present schools;giving thereby the students great pride in their surroundings , which is something that many, many Newfoundlanders need.

It is part of their education. lt is really part of their training that the surroundings in which they grow up,as young people,should be attractive, should be well groomed and should be in every possible way developed so as to give the students of that particular school a pride in it. Now if this recreational money,which we hear is now going to be allocated in millions,is spent in the right way,it should be directed in that direction,to devel9p this programme through and around the elementary high and vocational schools in the area.

I hope that .when the Mi~ister answers some of these questions he may refer to this and inform us that perhaps the Government policy or thinking is somewhat along these lines. Coming down to the vocational vote, the vote for vocational schools, I think this needs very close examination also. We know here that there is to be a great enlargement of these vocational schools, new wings, new 3C7

March 30th, 1971 MR, EARLE: Tape 88 JM - 3 additions and so on. This is fine. Heaven knows they are badly enough needed, These schools are bursting at the seams and many, many students who should be in them cannot get in them. I know that we on this side of the House are delighted that there will be money available to extend these schools. But let us think back a bit and let us examine this policy.

When these vocational schools were originally built there was suggested at the time a programme of development.,of . prevocational training, in the high schools or in the elementary schools but>because of the cumbersome system of education, that is the denominational system under which we operated, it was not found feasible to develop that sort .of a programme. Well, I feel ~uite sure that, and it seems to be hinted at now and strongly indicated . that the co-operation of the denominations can be obtained. The denominations are not here to bar educational progress.

They ~ave showed by their actions right through the history of Newfoundland bow they have encouraged and sponsored and fostered education in this Province and they have done a good job and it is not through any desire on their par~ to block progress in education ; that things have not been done,but it may possibly be through lack of understanding and lack of co-operation between Government and the denominations,on these particular projects. I feel that the vocational schools,as they are set up, I think it is twelve schools that we now have, are certainly a credit to this Province.

When I was close to them,at the time I did discover that many of them were built at an outrageous cost in their day. I think money was wasted, very badly wasted, extravagantly wasted in the construction of these schools and they could have been built to serve an equal purpose,equally as gcod,at a lot lower cost,if it had been carefully checked. Now we may today , in the rush to prove to our people that we are going to do great and wonderful things, this is the terrible problem of this Province that we are always operating under a theory of excitement, of dramatics and of big things going to be done.

If we can take the thing and approach it levelheaded , cooly, without the thought of having to use these schools politically to help win 3&8

March 30th, 1971 MR. EARLE; Tape 88 JM - 4 an election,~nd well they may be used for that purpose) we could build these schools probably a lot cheaper and a lot better than some of the work that has been done in the past~; I hope that the hon. Minister under whose department it comes~in co-operation with his colleague, the Minister of Public Works, wiU 1:1.sten to what I am saying very carefully,because this Province cannot afford to waste one ten cent piece. This comes down to the fact that in the Department of Education, up until recently 1 there was not a proper division of planning and design.

Now this 1 in my books 7 is one of the most essential things that any Govern­ ment should have in such a large spending department. 369

March 30th. 1971 Tape 89 PK - 1 MR. EARLE: It does spend, and this year we are told something upwards of $100 million. And, yet, we all know, we would have to be blind if we did not know, if we looked around the Province and saw many atrocious mistakes that have been made in the construction and location of school buildings. The Government may brush this off and say; ''well,the denominations control this." That is not a good enough answer, Mr. Chairman. That is by no means a good enough answer.

The Government pays out the peoples money, it must be responsible to see that it is spend properly, and if mistakes are being made by the denominational people or anybody else, it is the peoples'money they are spending. MR. NEARY: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: If the hon. Minister of Social Services, if he does not want to listen to what I say and take it in and learn and digest it, he might be well advised if he would go back to his favourite pastime of drawing cartoons. Did you see this on T.V. the other night? This depicts the thinking of the hon. minister, a couple of black ants chasing a couple of white ants.

I think, this is excellent. MR. CHAI~.AN: Order, please! MR. EARLE: I am sorry about the· interruption, Mr. Chairman, but I get side tracked by these silly remarks. MR. CROSBIE: He has got blinkers over his ears. MR. EARLE: That is it, exactly. Anyhow when I was quite foolishly interrupted a few moments ago, I think, I was talking in a fairly serious vein about the vocational system and how it could work and so on. My main thought at this time was that in the futture prograUDne,which is now going to get into high gear,that for heaven sake 7 if possible,that this be divorced from political expediency.

There are great crying.needs in this Province. The people of the Province need the best that they can get with which the money they have to spend, But do not let us just put a vocational school somewhere, because it is goin~ to get the member for that 370

March 30th. 1971 Tape 89 p~ - 2 MR. EARLE: district elected. Let us give it where it is most badly needed _ I think, the Government would be well advised and could take the advice of the people in fducation,who know the answers to these questions. And I hope that the Government are consulting with them.

On the additions to present buildings, and this applies to the University as much as to the Vocational Schools, we have gotten into an error because ~ of this so-called tight money.that. we have been forced to building temporary classrooms and temporary additions to schools and so on, which at the best are generally an eye sore. They fill a purpose, but. I am very much afraid that they will become permanent. They will become permanent}these temporary buildings have a habit of becoming permanent.

And, unfortunately, again under some of the ways in which Government business~is allocated and given out,then the cost of these temporary building~ is very often ,very, very close indeed to what a permanent building would be. MR. CHALKER: Inaudible. MR. EARLE: I would question the hon. the Minister of Public Works on that, He is not the one to answer this particular question. I am talking on the education vote now. But, when his turn comes, I would question very much indeed,with all respect to his long years in that particular post, if he knows what he is talking about.

I remember when I was in education, I had an astounding thing brought before me, ·rhis is just for purpose of illustration, but there were hangers at the Torbay Airport which were vacant, large buildings, and it was suggested at that time,because of the over-crowding of the Vocational Schools}that, we could well use some of these.by reconditioning them and so on, and we could use some of these to make temporary classrooms and so on for the Vocational School. Well, I questioned my Deputy at the time, as to what the cost would be?

And he showed me,for the reconditioning and changing around of one building at Torbay Airport,an estimate which was about to be accepted, I might say, of $750,000. I nearly had a fit. Because this particular job which we want to de, 371

March 30th. 1971 tape 89 MR. EARLE: in that case $750.000 could build a new building. I stopped that one. PK - 3 But this may be an illustration of how the things are not looked at carefully enough. I do hope 1 as I stated earlier,that these temporary buildings will not develop into permanent buildings because the plans,particularly for the University. if they develop and can develop along the lines which were drawn for them,would certainly improve the whole City of St. John's. I hope we will be able to afford to proceed,even if it takes twen~y years,that. we will be able to proceed along these lines.

In connection with Vocational Schools and again _ the Fisheries College, of hear a~ain the Fisheries Coller,e is an institution~which all of us,on this side of the House and on the other side 1 are very proud indeed. And we give the Premier full credit for having built that institution and ereated it. I have no hesitation whatever in giving him credit for it. But, there is the danger here, and it is already patented, that some very expensive and costly mistakes have been made.

For instance, in the Vocational Schools certain courses are taught and certain operations are undertaken,which to a greater or lesser extent are being duplicated in the Fisheries College. I remember looking at equipment,which was bough~very. very expensive equipment which went into the Fisheries College; which was duplicated in the Vocational ~chools,at that particular time. And they were teaching virtually the same courses. tn other words; what difference is there in training a marine cook, then a cook who operates on land/ He cooks. He cooks food. he prepares food.

Why do we have these tremendous courses in one school and then in another? There is a duplication of staff, of equipment, of everything. I suggested at the time, and I note the Government are now using the same suggestion,that we tried to aim towards what would be known as a large polytechnical institution. The polytech. This is a great word it almost sounds as good these days as pollution. You get certain words which are used 372

March 30th. 1971 Tape 89 PK - 4 'HR. EARLE: in education, where you use polytechnical and/or pollution or something like this, it has a nice ring to it, So this will be heard, I predict,a good many times in the months to come. But a polytechnical institute,which could encompass. a lot of the work of certain segements of the Vocational and Trade School and the Fisheries College and in conjunction and fairly close to the University, would.in my opinion,save this Province millions and millions of dollars over the years.

Because we could have an entertwinfng and a use of the facilities of the different branches moving together, so that, the same students could revolve 1 in a sense,and use many of the same institutions. Where I ~ot this idea was7 some years ago, I was in British Columbia, I was Minister of Education here at the time and I ;ook a trip across North America to see what was going on. In British ~olumbia;Ln one particular city, one area, I saw a very magnificent polytech with all the things developed around it on a beautiful site.

And it iunneditately occurred to.me that~ at that time we were just getting into the acquisition of the Pippy Park complex do~m here, which the late Mr. Pippy donated so generously. We were getting to that stage that it did occur to me that, this was the pattern in which we should go, this was the path which we should follow. That 1 in that a~ea there is plenty of room, there is ample acreage to develop a full scale polytechnical institute. It would not in anyway hinder the future development of the University and it would certainly enhance and improve our present Fisheries College facilities.

Now this comes back to what I started to say a few minutes ago, that through the stress of tight money or whatever the reason may be, I do not know, we have been forced into temporary buildin~s and provision~of buildings and all this sort of stuff. There is -at the present time a tremendous amount of money going down the drain on poor construction and poor building, which,with proper planning some years ago and proper planning now even,could be directed into the type of thing which I envisage, which would 373

March 30th. 1971 Tape 89 PK - 5 MR. EARLE: be a lot less costly to operate, a lot more efficient in its operation and would give the students who attended far, far better opportunity than they are getting today. This is the sort of thinking that I feel our Government should be directing towards,at least that segement of education in our Province. There is in this vote, of course, vote for transportation. Here again, Mr. Minister, I am quite sure that you are . as well aware as I was at the time that I was there, there is a great, great waste of money,in